March 23, 2024 • 26 mins
Ever been stuck wondering where bloating ends, IBS begins, and your body's hunger signals fit in?
This week I'm bringing back the expertise and my go-to gal for all things gut health Chloe McLeod @chloe_mcleod_dietitian who is the founder of dietitian Telehealth services @verdenutritionco (oh-so convenient).
As we unravel the complexities of Irritable Bowel Syndrome, which affects around 20% of Australians, Chloe decodes the sneaky signs of nutritional inadequacy that could be mistaken for IBS.
Together, we examine the importance of recognising menstrual irregularities, exercise performance, and resilience to sickness as potential indicators of dietary deficiencies.
The journey to gut health doesn't end with identifying the problems; it's about finding solutions that make you feel fabulous once again!
Chloe spills the beans on leveling up our gut tolerance and why it's key for a kickass gut microbiome. She's your go-to guru for tackling IBS, serving up savvy strategies and pro tips for finding gut nirvana without giving up the joy of eating the foods you love!
Want healthy recipes that ACTUALLY taste good (and are nutritionist approved)? Well okay then! Try my Back to Basics app for FREE.
Worried your dodgy diet habits or binge eating might be contributing to your pesky gut issues? My FREE 5 Day Course (Webinar included!) will provide you with practical strategies I have used to feel more in control around food.
Want to feel more in control around food? Check out my Stop Struggling With Food Guide, currently on sale for 40% off.
You’ll also find 50 of my favourite recipes to get you inspired!
Get my Free 5 Day Course to help you stop binge and emotional eating.
Looking for more support to feel in control around food? I'd love to support you in my Binge Free Academy.
Come follow me on the gram at @nude_nutritionist (no nude pics, sorry).
Want to share some feedback or have an idea for an episode, I'd LOVE to hear from you - hit me up at hello@lyndicohen.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
That's one of the most common IBS triggers for
people.
You know they don't seem likethey're related, but they are
100% are.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Is it true that what we're doing is we're trying to
help to get our body accustomedto these foods?
Help, I binge eat on the veryfoods that give me issues with
my gut.
Hello, hello and welcome backto no Well, ms Wankery.
(00:31):
Today is an awesomeconversation with dietitian
Chloe McCloud.
She is an advanced sportsdietitian who I've had on the
podcast before.
If you haven't listened to thatepisode, please go and check it
out.
We're talking about how to fuelfor your exercise, how to make
sure you're eating enough.
Today's chat is about IBS.
Perhaps you're going oh, Ithink I might have IBS.
I don't know what to do.
(00:52):
Please help me.
Let's sort this out.
Chloe is the person to speak toabout this.
She's not only the sportsdietitian, but she's also very
much a specialist in gut healthand food intolerances as well.
She's kind of my go-to personfor it.
That's why I feel so lucky tohave her on the show today.
She's also the founder of theNutrition Co, where she and her
team of nutrition experts canprovide you with consults via
(01:12):
telehealth, which I think is abrilliantly convenient way to
get her support.
I will leave a link in the shownotes so you can get in touch
with her and her team and alsofollow her on Instagram.
She's Chloe underscore McCloudunderscore dietitian.
Go and check her out.
Let's welcome Chloe.
Chloe McCloud.
(01:34):
Thank you for coming back on thepodcast.
My pleasure, lindy.
Thanks for having me again.
My pleasure.
Well, as a gut healthspecialist, I really look to you
and go.
Chloe has the answers that weneed.
Now, if you are someone you'regoing okay, I think I might have
IBS.
I've got some reallyuncomfortable gut stuff
happening.
I need help.
What are some of the thingswhere you might be experiencing?
If you're going, okay, I thinkI've got IBS.
(01:56):
What might that feel like forsomeone?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah, so this is the number one reason that people
come into my clinic to see me orsome of the other dietitians in
my team, and so IBS ischaracterized by uncomfortable
gut symptoms.
So pain, cramping, bloating,diarrhea, constipation, feeling
like when you do go to thebathroom, like your motion is
incomplete, so all things youknow.
(02:20):
Really great dinner tableconversation for people, but
it's a really common thing.
So IBS specifically impactsaround 20% or just under the
Australian population, so it's acommon thing that people are
experiencing.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
One of the things we were talking about before is
this idea of people coming toyour clinic thinking they have
IBS and wanting a restrictiveplan because they've seen on
Instagram, probably that this iswhat they need to do, and so
they come into your clinic theysay I think I've got IBS.
What do you then do?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah.
So, as I sort of said, this isthe number one thing that people
come into to Macphoenix for,and often it's because they're
not eating enough that they'regetting these symptoms.
Now, if you're somebody who iswondering if you have IBS,
before going down the wholerestrictive food route, it's
worth checking in a couple ofother things.
(03:14):
So Some of those could includeare you still getting your
period regularly, or yourmenstrual cycle?
Is that happening on a regularbasis still, or have there been
any, even any changes to it?
Has it gotten significantlylighter than it would have been
in the past?
With your exercise that you'redoing, are you noticing that
you're improving?
And you know, are the weightsthat you're lifting getting
heavier?
If you're running, are you ableto run faster or further?
(03:36):
And are you seeing thoseimprovements in your performance
that you would be expecting tosee On a sort of a really sort
of more extreme level?
Have you maybe experienced anystress fractures at all?
Because that can be a reallyclear sign that maybe you've
actually been underfueling foryour physical activity,
particularly if you're doingmore of that weight-bearing
exercise.
And there's a number of othersymptoms as well, but I'd say
(03:58):
those are the ones that sort ofpop up most commonly for people,
and also if you're gettingthese symptoms in particularly
around when you're exercising,more so than at other times,
that can sometimes be a signthat maybe when you're
exercising you are not eatingenough as well, and that's
particularly if you're doingsort of more endurance type
(04:18):
physical activity.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And do you think also some other side effects could
be getting sick pretty often orfeeling quite tired?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
all the time.
Yeah, so we can go into some ofthe other ones.
So, noticing that you get sickmore regularly and it takes, or
it takes you a longer time torecover.
Maybe you're getting injuredmore regularly, so like sort of
little niggling injuries thatjust don't send you go away, or
maybe getting injured morefrequently as well.
Noticing that you're finding itdifficult to focus, concentrate
(04:47):
, getting a really full head anda lot of the time again, that
can be a symptom of not havingeaten enough as well, but the
other one would be around, likeyour mood, so finding that
you're quite moody and irritableand maybe you're not such a
pleasure to be around as whatyou might have usually been.
So there's a lot of sort of redflags, but I want to be really
(05:10):
clear that those things can alsobe signs of other things.
So it is really important thatyou see GP, that you see the ITC
get some help to figure outwhat's going on, because you
don't want to miss something ifthere is something more sinister
going on.
But if it is that maybe you'reinadvertently not eating enough
or not eating enough of theright things at the right times,
(05:32):
that is being number oneproblem.
That I would see across theboard at my clinic at the moment
.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And why does under eating cause gut issues in some
people?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
You can cause it for a number of different reasons,
but a big part of it is there'sbecause of that low energy
availability and the stress thatthe physical activity is
putting on the body.
But a lot of people that canthen cause those gut symptoms
because there's not enoughenergy available and your body
isn't functioning as it should,it puts extra stress on it and
it starts to exhibit a lot ofthese symptoms.
(06:04):
So the bloating, that pain,that'd be probably the two most
sort of common ones.
And then people will often goeither more diarrhea or more
constipation, or sometimes it'sa bit of a myth.
It tends to pet a little bit onthe individual.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
And I find it so interesting because so often
I've seen with people who havedisordered eating, a history of
an eating disorder is thisdesire to try and under eat, to
try and over exercise andperhaps you're somebody going oh
, I feel like I just struggle tolose weight and I think what is
the most underrated aspect ofwellness is the impact that
(06:39):
stress has on the body, howfeeling stressed about your body
can put this load and stress onyou.
How over exercising, is Chloesaying, can very much impact
your metabolism, your gut, yoursymptoms and, in a way, it
contributes to more stress.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Yeah, and I mean stress itself, that can
contribute to these gut symptomsas well.
So there's a gut brain access,which is, you know, really,
really discussed in theliterature and the messaging
that goes between your gut andyour brain and your brain and
your gut.
It's a vital, actualrelationship.
So when you're feeling morestressed, you're more likely to
(07:17):
experience the gut symptoms thatwe've been speaking about, and
also, when your gut's not happy,you're more likely to end up
feeling stressed because of thatrelationship going back and
forth.
And so if we think about thelike, yes, exercise is
incredible for your body, it'sincredible for helping with
reducing stress because of themental impact.
(07:38):
But if you're doing really hardexercise or over exercising,
that can then contribute tophysical stress.
Maybe the mental stress in yourmind is maybe better because
you know you like totally cookedyourself, but maybe being
physical stress on your body isthen what's contributing to some
of these gut symptoms thatyou're experiencing and
(07:58):
fortunately it's actually arelatively easy fix is, you know
, as someone said to me earlierthis week, so you're telling me
I just get to eat more.
I'm like, yeah, I'm telling youthat I can't even understand.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
That sounds like a really good fix, but it can also
be really challenging.
So I think two things that cometo mind that make it tricky is
one is a lack of appetite.
That can happen when you'regoing through a stressful period
, particularly, some people saythey don't like to eat before
they exercise, and thengenuinely people who fear weight
gain going.
(08:30):
I don't want to increase whatI'm eating because of the reason
I'm exercising is to loseweight and I've got all these
unpleasant gut symptoms.
It's it's really trickysometimes to just eat a little
bit more.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, and I apologize , I didn't articulate that well.
I meant simple, not easy.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So something that simple doesn't mean easy.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
So, yes, very good.
Now, I think a couple of thingsthere is.
Start small.
So if you're not somebody wholikes to eat before you exercise
and you know you might haveheard on that other episode me
talking about having a bananabefore you ate or something like
that that might sound a bitoverwhelming.
Well, let's not have a wholebanana, let's have a half banana
to start with.
(09:09):
Let's just start with something.
Start like something is betterthan nothing.
And you know, if that, if it'ssomething that I haven't
mentioned, but you're like, oh,I think I could maybe have
something like that.
Maybe it's, you know, a pear oran apple or something like that
, do that.
It doesn't have to be one ofthe things I suggested there.
You know we've all got ourgrocery things that we like to
eat or that we like to recommend.
(09:30):
So having something, gettingstarted with it and being really
kind to us.
It's not about, you know, it'ssort of about being perfect at
all, like I should thinkperfection is like the furthest
goal that anyone should betrying to attain.
It's all about that process andthat journey and making small
changes at a time and then, overtime, you suddenly go oh my
(09:51):
gosh, I can't believe how muchbetter I feel when I'm feeling
my exercise better, can'tbelieve how much better results
I'm getting when I'm feeling myexercise better and I can't
believe how much my gut symptomshave disappeared now that I'm
feeling my exercise and my wholeday were effectively.
I always find it so fascinatinghow there's so many different
parts of our body that seem tobe completely unrelated that
(10:14):
actually are, particularly whenwe're looking at this area,
because, you know, often I'llspeak to people and they'll be
like I don't understand how I'mgetting got issues because I
haven't eaten enough and it'syou know they don't seem like
they're related but they are100% are.
And yes, some people do havetrue IBS.
But there's no point trying togo down the path of FODMAP
(10:37):
restriction or any sort of otherinvestigation at all until we
know that you're feeling enoughon a day-to-day basis because of
that impact.
And I think a good example ofthat is it's so common to see
people who have eating disordersor who have a history of eating
disorders experiencing IBS typesymptoms and it's because of
(10:57):
how the microbiome changes.
But it's not necessarily thepoint of going down FODMAPs,
it's let's get some extra fuelin so the body can function
better and be better optimised,and in most cases it ends up
sorting itself out.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
It's such an interesting one because what we
know from the research is thatgetting diverse range of foods
in our diet is really importantfor gut microbiome and then I
look at a diet for someone withIBS or IBD and it can often be.
it can appear to be a reallyrestrictive diet.
In many ways it is, and sosometimes I hear people say but
(11:33):
there are only certain foodsthat I can eat to manage my
symptoms, which means I can'treally get that diversity in to
improve my gut microbiome.
It's a bit of a challenge.
Can you talk to us about this?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, and so glad you brought that up and I think the
way I love the FODMAP space, Ifind it so interesting.
But it's so important to bringthe FODMAPs back in and it's not
about you going along with lowFODMAP diet and you're on it
forever.
No one should be on it forever.
No one should be avoiding allof their triggers forever.
It's about working out whatthey are, what to find your diet
(12:09):
for a portion of time so thatyou can figure out what your
specific triggers are, but overtime slowly adding them back in.
I always like to use onion as anexample here, because that's
one of the most common IBStriggers for people and if it's
a trigger for you, if you startto include really small amounts
so I'm talking like a quarter ofa teaspoon, like tiny little
(12:31):
bits in your food regularly overtime your gut microbiome it
will change and you will findthat you can tolerate onion.
After you know it's not goingto happen in a month or two
months, but six months a year ofthat really regular, really
small amounts of inclusion,you'll find that you actually
start to tolerate it moreefficiently and more effectively
(12:53):
without developing thosesymptoms.
So I just I find it sofrustrating when I see people
who are like I've been on thislow FODMAP diet for 10 years I'm
like oh my Terrifying.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Please, no, please don't.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, please don't.
So the low FODMAP diet is adiagnostic tool.
I cannot emphasise this enough.
It's a diagnostic tool to helppeople to determine what their
triggers are, but it's not athese are my triggers.
I never eat them again.
It's these are my triggers.
How can I bring them back intomy diet?
Because, to keep with the onionexample, it's such an important
(13:29):
prebiotic.
So the fibre in it, yes, it cancontribute to some of your
symptoms, but it also is soimportant for short chain fatty
acid production, which I'm notsomeone who loves the term
superfood, but I'm like the realsuper heroes when it comes to
our gut health are short chainfatty acids.
So we need to be eating thisprebiotic fibre so that we can
develop those in our gut andsustain it with our victory.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, sorry.
Can you explain the short chainfatty acids to everyone who
might not understand what thatmeans?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, sure.
So when we eat different typesof fibre, particularly our
prebiotic fibre, it actuallyferments in your gut and that's
sometimes why you mightexperience some of that protein.
Obviously you don't want thatto be the point that it's
uncomfortable, but we need to beeating these because of this
development of these compounds,so short chain fatty acids, so
that some of the different typesare butyrate, acetate and
(14:20):
propionate, and they are reallyreally anti-inflammatory
compounds that are developed asa result of the gut bacteria for
menching these prebiotic fibres.
They're so powerful that theycan actually reduce your risk of
bowel cancer.
So you might have the starts oflittle polyps in your bowel.
They can actually go andscavenge is maybe the right word
(14:41):
and they actually can stop thatroast of that polyp and stop
the bowel cancer from happening.
When you have enough of thoseshort chain fatty acids, and
that's also been shown to helpwith reducing risk of diabetes,
heart disease, inflammatorybowel disease, you know they are
so incredibly important and soincredibly powerful.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So what you're talking about is, by increasing
the amount of prebiotic fibre wecan get in our diet, we can get
all of these benefits as well,and so to get more prebiotic
fibre in our diet.
Sometimes it can feel like thatis also at odds with our IBS
kind of symptoms.
What you're saying is prebioticbeing something like onion.
We're building up thattolerance because if we're doing
(15:23):
it without that support, wemight be going OK, no, I have to
pull back on all these foods,even though it sometimes feels
like the solution is the problem.
But we're building up thattolerance and, as you so rightly
said, doing that with aspecialised nutrition
professional dietitian likeChloe, and I will leave a link
so you can go and do an onlineconsultation with Chloe and a
(15:43):
team who specialised in thisarea, who can help you do this
safely, who can help you makesure you're not slipping into
old restrictive habits, becausethese do kind of sometimes feel
at odds.
You're rebuilding thattolerance, helping to repopulate
your gut microbiome so that youcan be more resilient, and I
think that is a really excitingforecast.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, and I think, like just even hearing you speak
to us, then I'm like howfreeing is that being?
Like, okay, I don't actuallyhave to restrict these foods or
be worried about eating thesefoods forever, because it can be
scary when you go oh my gosh,I've worked out that onion
getting a battering, say, I'veworked out onions an issue and
that can be really scary for alot of reasons.
(16:24):
It can cause a lot of anxietyaround food because it's in so
many things, particularly whenyou're eating out, eating in
social occasions, so you know itcan be make it really tricky
and that's why it's so importantto get that help, but so
important to have that slow ratereduction so that over time you
can we can bring it back intoyour diet.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I'm loving how this conversation is going.
Something that I often see iswhere people go hey, so I tried
these diets where I had to cutout all these foods.
I couldn't eat gluten, Icouldn't eat dairy, I couldn't,
and that you know, right all offa whole list of carbohydrates
they feared, and then they go.
Well, then I reintroduced itand it didn't make me feel good,
and so it's kind of this ideaof Torrance level for these
(17:04):
foods that you've been avoidingfor such a long time.
Is it true that what we'redoing is we're trying to help to
get our body accustomed tothese foods and why, you know,
in Disorder eating, we'recreating these really small
lists of safe foods.
Things were allowed to eat.
We're limiting the diversity inour guts, we're making
ourselves more sensitive tothese foods, in fact sometimes
creating a problem where therewas no problem to begin with?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, from where I see it Makes me feel so sad when
I see those really small lists,and I know how scary it can be
to start to bring foods back inbecause how it may have made you
feel in the past or how worriedyou are about how it might have
made you feel, and Sometimesbringing things out can
inadvertently end up causing aproblem, as he said.
(17:47):
So you know, regardless ofwhere you are Getting that
expert help to help to start tobring things back into your diet
so that you can improve thediversity of the plants that
you're eating.
The research is really clearthat for people who eat at least
30 different plants across theweek, they have better gut
health.
They have better healthoutcomes as a result of that.
I know 30 sounds huge, but ifyou sit down and start to count
(18:11):
it out, it may not be as smallas you actually like.
You may not.
You may be having a lot morethan you actually think because
it's not just fruits and veggies, it's your whole grains,
legumes, nuts, seeds, herbs,spices.
So it's pretty easy to get that30 in Particularly.
You know, if you're followingyour beautiful recipes and Linda
, you know you've got so manyamazing ones there that have
(18:32):
that diversity.
What I will say, though, is, ifyou are feeling worried about it
, starts small and you know itdoesn't have to be that whole
meal is like oh my gosh, I'mgoing and having like all the
onion or any other food thatmight be causing it or may cause
a problem for you.
Don't really slow.
Build it up over time.
Part of it is helping yourmicrobiome get used to it.
(18:54):
The other part is helping yourbrain get used to the idea of
eating those foods again.
So starting small is it's lessscary.
Think about anything in life Ifit's feeling a little bit
overwhelming or a little bitscary.
You're not gonna go and do thewhole thing at once.
You just take my little step,little step, little step, and
over time, suddenly you're likeoh my gosh, I got there, amazing
Spot on and they take us backto that conversation we had
(19:14):
about that mental stress or thatphysical stress as well.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So you're kind of anxious about eating your food.
You know that can also create aproblem.
Self-fulfilling nature of it all.
I just want to end this chatand just to bring it to this
intersection we have of bingeeating and IBS and intolerances,
because I think, as you know,with my expertise and your
expertise, something I often getasked about is okay, help, I
(19:40):
binge eat on the very foods thatgive me issues with my gut.
I'm intolerant to these foods,but for some reason, I can't
help but binge eat on them, andso I'm keen to hear your
perspective on this.
What I often find is the veryfoods that we eliminate from our
diet, particularly carbohydratefoods.
I find this most people aregoing.
Well, I'm not bingeing oncarrots, I binge eating on lots
(20:03):
of bread or cereal or whateverit is, and so often what we do
by reintroducing these foods, bygiving permission around them,
you actually eat them in farsmaller quantities than by
eliminating them, and, of course, you still might have those
negative symptoms as a result ofhaving those foods.
But already, by normalizingthem, we're reducing the level
(20:25):
of that symptom, and with time,you can get to a point where you
can start to eat those foods ina bit more of a healthy state.
Chloe, what are your thoughtson this?
Do you approach it similarly?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, hit the nail on the head.
The exact same way, I think bygiving yourself permission to
have it, it causes you to notfeel that requirement to overdo
it, because it's like, oh, thisis a naughty thing or this is a
tree.
This is just part of what I doand it's not a problem.
Also, if we come back to whatwe were saying before, if you
(20:58):
are feeling a bit worried aboutwhat might happen if you have it
, no matter how much you have,well then let's start small.
If it's bread, let's start withyour favorite, beautiful, great
quality one that you know, youreally love, have a slice with
some butter or whatever it isthat you like putting on.
I think I can't remember whereI heard you talking about this
(21:19):
years ago now, but it wassomething about peanut butter on
toast.
And if it's like you feel likeyou can't have the peanut butter
on toast in the house, go tothe cafe and have it, because
then you're giving yourselfpermission to have it but not
then having the ability to goand have, you know, the whole
loaf, because you don't have thewhole loaf, because you just
had your slice at the cafe.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So you can feel really safe to do that and also
to be have other people watchingyou, even if you don't know
those people.
In the restaurant.
Binge eating is so somethingthat we do in secret, where we
feel so judged with hideout,empty wrappers, and simply
making it something that you doin front of other people can be
quite liberating and helpreinforce the idea that that
food is not off limits.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yeah, I've that peanut butter on toast in the
cafe, but I cannot rememberwhere I heard you talking about
it, but it's stuck with me andit's something that I have said
to so many clients over theyears and it's as you say it is
so liberating, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad because there isthis real intersection between
gut symptoms and binge eatingand all of this.
If you do feel like you're outof control with food, I will
just say I've got a free webinar, free training, that I will
leave a link for you to do inthe show notes as well.
I hope you feel like that'ssomething that you need help
with.
You can do that, and I'm goingto give you tips in there that I
(22:36):
haven't shared elsewhere.
Chloe McLeod, you are my go-toperson for these things.
I feel very, very grateful thatyou've had this chat with us.
I feel like lots of people aregoing to benefit from having
this conversation.
Once again, I will leave thenotes for how people can find
Chloe in the description so youcan go and follow her on
Instagram.
You can go and speak to her andher team of dietitians to get
(22:57):
support, because please do,please don't struggle by
yourself.
There is help out there who canhelp you do it without falling
into restrictive traps, and tohelp you feel good in your body,
something you so deserve.
Thank you, chloe.
I hope you loved today'sconversation.
I sure did I definitely.
I learned a lot.
(23:18):
I love Chloe.
She's fabulous.
If you want to go check outChloe Chloe underscore McLeod,
unscored dietitian on Instagramand follow her she's got lots of
great tips.
And also if you are someone whois looking for a little bit
more support to be healthy andyou want emails that don't suck,
I will also leave a link downbelow so you can get on my
(23:38):
newsletter.
I send emails that you actuallywant to open, that have got a
lot of value and things I don'tshare on Instagram.
So go and check that out andI'll see you next time.
That's one of the most common IBS triggers for
people.
You know they don't seem likethey're related, but they are
100% are.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Is it true that what we're doing is we're trying to
help to get our body accustomedto these foods?
Help, I binge eat on the veryfoods that give me issues with
my gut.
Hello, hello and welcome backto no Well, ms Wankery.
(00:31):
Today is an awesomeconversation with dietitian
Chloe McCloud.
She is an advanced sportsdietitian who I've had on the
podcast before.
If you haven't listened to thatepisode, please go and check it
out.
We're talking about how to fuelfor your exercise, how to make
sure you're eating enough.
Today's chat is about IBS.
Perhaps you're going oh, Ithink I might have IBS.
I don't know what to do.
(00:52):
Please help me.
Let's sort this out.
Chloe is the person to speak toabout this.
She's not only the sportsdietitian, but she's also very
much a specialist in gut healthand food intolerances as well.
She's kind of my go-to personfor it.
That's why I feel so lucky tohave her on the show today.
She's also the founder of theNutrition Co, where she and her
team of nutrition experts canprovide you with consults via
(01:12):
telehealth, which I think is abrilliantly convenient way to
get her support.
I will leave a link in the shownotes so you can get in touch
with her and her team and alsofollow her on Instagram.
She's Chloe underscore McCloudunderscore dietitian.
Go and check her out.
Let's welcome Chloe.
Chloe McCloud.
(01:34):
Thank you for coming back on thepodcast.
My pleasure, lindy.
Thanks for having me again.
My pleasure.
Well, as a gut healthspecialist, I really look to you
and go.
Chloe has the answers that weneed.
Now, if you are someone you'regoing okay, I think I might have
IBS.
I've got some reallyuncomfortable gut stuff
happening.
I need help.
What are some of the thingswhere you might be experiencing?
If you're going, okay, I thinkI've got IBS.
(01:56):
What might that feel like forsomeone?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah, so this is the number one reason that people
come into my clinic to see me orsome of the other dietitians in
my team, and so IBS ischaracterized by uncomfortable
gut symptoms.
So pain, cramping, bloating,diarrhea, constipation, feeling
like when you do go to thebathroom, like your motion is
incomplete, so all things youknow.
(02:20):
Really great dinner tableconversation for people, but
it's a really common thing.
So IBS specifically impactsaround 20% or just under the
Australian population, so it's acommon thing that people are
experiencing.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
One of the things we were talking about before is
this idea of people coming toyour clinic thinking they have
IBS and wanting a restrictiveplan because they've seen on
Instagram, probably that this iswhat they need to do, and so
they come into your clinic theysay I think I've got IBS.
What do you then do?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah.
So, as I sort of said, this isthe number one thing that people
come into to Macphoenix for,and often it's because they're
not eating enough that they'regetting these symptoms.
Now, if you're somebody who iswondering if you have IBS,
before going down the wholerestrictive food route, it's
worth checking in a couple ofother things.
(03:14):
So Some of those could includeare you still getting your
period regularly, or yourmenstrual cycle?
Is that happening on a regularbasis still, or have there been
any, even any changes to it?
Has it gotten significantlylighter than it would have been
in the past?
With your exercise that you'redoing, are you noticing that
you're improving?
And you know, are the weightsthat you're lifting getting
heavier?
If you're running, are you ableto run faster or further?
(03:36):
And are you seeing thoseimprovements in your performance
that you would be expecting tosee On a sort of a really sort
of more extreme level?
Have you maybe experienced anystress fractures at all?
Because that can be a reallyclear sign that maybe you've
actually been underfueling foryour physical activity,
particularly if you're doingmore of that weight-bearing
exercise.
And there's a number of othersymptoms as well, but I'd say
(03:58):
those are the ones that sort ofpop up most commonly for people,
and also if you're gettingthese symptoms in particularly
around when you're exercising,more so than at other times,
that can sometimes be a signthat maybe when you're
exercising you are not eatingenough as well, and that's
particularly if you're doingsort of more endurance type
(04:18):
physical activity.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And do you think also some other side effects could
be getting sick pretty often orfeeling quite tired?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
all the time.
Yeah, so we can go into some ofthe other ones.
So, noticing that you get sickmore regularly and it takes, or
it takes you a longer time torecover.
Maybe you're getting injuredmore regularly, so like sort of
little niggling injuries thatjust don't send you go away, or
maybe getting injured morefrequently as well.
Noticing that you're finding itdifficult to focus, concentrate
(04:47):
, getting a really full head anda lot of the time again, that
can be a symptom of not havingeaten enough as well, but the
other one would be around, likeyour mood, so finding that
you're quite moody and irritableand maybe you're not such a
pleasure to be around as whatyou might have usually been.
So there's a lot of sort of redflags, but I want to be really
(05:10):
clear that those things can alsobe signs of other things.
So it is really important thatyou see GP, that you see the ITC
get some help to figure outwhat's going on, because you
don't want to miss something ifthere is something more sinister
going on.
But if it is that maybe you'reinadvertently not eating enough
or not eating enough of theright things at the right times,
(05:32):
that is being number oneproblem.
That I would see across theboard at my clinic at the moment
.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And why does under eating cause gut issues in some
people?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
You can cause it for a number of different reasons,
but a big part of it is there'sbecause of that low energy
availability and the stress thatthe physical activity is
putting on the body.
But a lot of people that canthen cause those gut symptoms
because there's not enoughenergy available and your body
isn't functioning as it should,it puts extra stress on it and
it starts to exhibit a lot ofthese symptoms.
(06:04):
So the bloating, that pain,that'd be probably the two most
sort of common ones.
And then people will often goeither more diarrhea or more
constipation, or sometimes it'sa bit of a myth.
It tends to pet a little bit onthe individual.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
And I find it so interesting because so often
I've seen with people who havedisordered eating, a history of
an eating disorder is thisdesire to try and under eat, to
try and over exercise andperhaps you're somebody going oh
, I feel like I just struggle tolose weight and I think what is
the most underrated aspect ofwellness is the impact that
(06:39):
stress has on the body, howfeeling stressed about your body
can put this load and stress onyou.
How over exercising, is Chloesaying, can very much impact
your metabolism, your gut, yoursymptoms and, in a way, it
contributes to more stress.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Yeah, and I mean stress itself, that can
contribute to these gut symptomsas well.
So there's a gut brain access,which is, you know, really,
really discussed in theliterature and the messaging
that goes between your gut andyour brain and your brain and
your gut.
It's a vital, actualrelationship.
So when you're feeling morestressed, you're more likely to
(07:17):
experience the gut symptoms thatwe've been speaking about, and
also, when your gut's not happy,you're more likely to end up
feeling stressed because of thatrelationship going back and
forth.
And so if we think about thelike, yes, exercise is
incredible for your body, it'sincredible for helping with
reducing stress because of themental impact.
(07:38):
But if you're doing really hardexercise or over exercising,
that can then contribute tophysical stress.
Maybe the mental stress in yourmind is maybe better because
you know you like totally cookedyourself, but maybe being
physical stress on your body isthen what's contributing to some
of these gut symptoms thatyou're experiencing and
(07:58):
fortunately it's actually arelatively easy fix is, you know
, as someone said to me earlierthis week, so you're telling me
I just get to eat more.
I'm like, yeah, I'm telling youthat I can't even understand.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
That sounds like a really good fix, but it can also
be really challenging.
So I think two things that cometo mind that make it tricky is
one is a lack of appetite.
That can happen when you'regoing through a stressful period
, particularly, some people saythey don't like to eat before
they exercise, and thengenuinely people who fear weight
gain going.
(08:30):
I don't want to increase whatI'm eating because of the reason
I'm exercising is to loseweight and I've got all these
unpleasant gut symptoms.
It's it's really trickysometimes to just eat a little
bit more.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, and I apologize , I didn't articulate that well.
I meant simple, not easy.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So something that simple doesn't mean easy.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
So, yes, very good.
Now, I think a couple of thingsthere is.
Start small.
So if you're not somebody wholikes to eat before you exercise
and you know you might haveheard on that other episode me
talking about having a bananabefore you ate or something like
that that might sound a bitoverwhelming.
Well, let's not have a wholebanana, let's have a half banana
to start with.
(09:09):
Let's just start with something.
Start like something is betterthan nothing.
And you know, if that, if it'ssomething that I haven't
mentioned, but you're like, oh,I think I could maybe have
something like that.
Maybe it's, you know, a pear oran apple or something like that
, do that.
It doesn't have to be one ofthe things I suggested there.
You know we've all got ourgrocery things that we like to
eat or that we like to recommend.
(09:30):
So having something, gettingstarted with it and being really
kind to us.
It's not about, you know, it'ssort of about being perfect at
all, like I should thinkperfection is like the furthest
goal that anyone should betrying to attain.
It's all about that process andthat journey and making small
changes at a time and then, overtime, you suddenly go oh my
(09:51):
gosh, I can't believe how muchbetter I feel when I'm feeling
my exercise better, can'tbelieve how much better results
I'm getting when I'm feeling myexercise better and I can't
believe how much my gut symptomshave disappeared now that I'm
feeling my exercise and my wholeday were effectively.
I always find it so fascinatinghow there's so many different
parts of our body that seem tobe completely unrelated that
(10:14):
actually are, particularly whenwe're looking at this area,
because, you know, often I'llspeak to people and they'll be
like I don't understand how I'mgetting got issues because I
haven't eaten enough and it'syou know they don't seem like
they're related but they are100% are.
And yes, some people do havetrue IBS.
But there's no point trying togo down the path of FODMAP
(10:37):
restriction or any sort of otherinvestigation at all until we
know that you're feeling enoughon a day-to-day basis because of
that impact.
And I think a good example ofthat is it's so common to see
people who have eating disordersor who have a history of eating
disorders experiencing IBS typesymptoms and it's because of
(10:57):
how the microbiome changes.
But it's not necessarily thepoint of going down FODMAPs,
it's let's get some extra fuelin so the body can function
better and be better optimised,and in most cases it ends up
sorting itself out.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
It's such an interesting one because what we
know from the research is thatgetting diverse range of foods
in our diet is really importantfor gut microbiome and then I
look at a diet for someone withIBS or IBD and it can often be.
it can appear to be a reallyrestrictive diet.
In many ways it is, and sosometimes I hear people say but
(11:33):
there are only certain foodsthat I can eat to manage my
symptoms, which means I can'treally get that diversity in to
improve my gut microbiome.
It's a bit of a challenge.
Can you talk to us about this?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, and so glad you brought that up and I think the
way I love the FODMAP space, Ifind it so interesting.
But it's so important to bringthe FODMAPs back in and it's not
about you going along with lowFODMAP diet and you're on it
forever.
No one should be on it forever.
No one should be avoiding allof their triggers forever.
It's about working out whatthey are, what to find your diet
(12:09):
for a portion of time so thatyou can figure out what your
specific triggers are, but overtime slowly adding them back in.
I always like to use onion as anexample here, because that's
one of the most common IBStriggers for people and if it's
a trigger for you, if you startto include really small amounts
so I'm talking like a quarter ofa teaspoon, like tiny little
(12:31):
bits in your food regularly overtime your gut microbiome it
will change and you will findthat you can tolerate onion.
After you know it's not goingto happen in a month or two
months, but six months a year ofthat really regular, really
small amounts of inclusion,you'll find that you actually
start to tolerate it moreefficiently and more effectively
(12:53):
without developing thosesymptoms.
So I just I find it sofrustrating when I see people
who are like I've been on thislow FODMAP diet for 10 years I'm
like oh my Terrifying.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Please, no, please don't.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, please don't.
So the low FODMAP diet is adiagnostic tool.
I cannot emphasise this enough.
It's a diagnostic tool to helppeople to determine what their
triggers are, but it's not athese are my triggers.
I never eat them again.
It's these are my triggers.
How can I bring them back intomy diet?
Because, to keep with the onionexample, it's such an important
(13:29):
prebiotic.
So the fibre in it, yes, it cancontribute to some of your
symptoms, but it also is soimportant for short chain fatty
acid production, which I'm notsomeone who loves the term
superfood, but I'm like the realsuper heroes when it comes to
our gut health are short chainfatty acids.
So we need to be eating thisprebiotic fibre so that we can
develop those in our gut andsustain it with our victory.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, sorry.
Can you explain the short chainfatty acids to everyone who
might not understand what thatmeans?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, sure.
So when we eat different typesof fibre, particularly our
prebiotic fibre, it actuallyferments in your gut and that's
sometimes why you mightexperience some of that protein.
Obviously you don't want thatto be the point that it's
uncomfortable, but we need to beeating these because of this
development of these compounds,so short chain fatty acids, so
that some of the different typesare butyrate, acetate and
(14:20):
propionate, and they are reallyreally anti-inflammatory
compounds that are developed asa result of the gut bacteria for
menching these prebiotic fibres.
They're so powerful that theycan actually reduce your risk of
bowel cancer.
So you might have the starts oflittle polyps in your bowel.
They can actually go andscavenge is maybe the right word
(14:41):
and they actually can stop thatroast of that polyp and stop
the bowel cancer from happening.
When you have enough of thoseshort chain fatty acids, and
that's also been shown to helpwith reducing risk of diabetes,
heart disease, inflammatorybowel disease, you know they are
so incredibly important and soincredibly powerful.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So what you're talking about is, by increasing
the amount of prebiotic fibre wecan get in our diet, we can get
all of these benefits as well,and so to get more prebiotic
fibre in our diet.
Sometimes it can feel like thatis also at odds with our IBS
kind of symptoms.
What you're saying is prebioticbeing something like onion.
We're building up thattolerance because if we're doing
(15:23):
it without that support, wemight be going OK, no, I have to
pull back on all these foods,even though it sometimes feels
like the solution is the problem.
But we're building up thattolerance and, as you so rightly
said, doing that with aspecialised nutrition
professional dietitian likeChloe, and I will leave a link
so you can go and do an onlineconsultation with Chloe and a
(15:43):
team who specialised in thisarea, who can help you do this
safely, who can help you makesure you're not slipping into
old restrictive habits, becausethese do kind of sometimes feel
at odds.
You're rebuilding thattolerance, helping to repopulate
your gut microbiome so that youcan be more resilient, and I
think that is a really excitingforecast.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, and I think, like just even hearing you speak
to us, then I'm like howfreeing is that being?
Like, okay, I don't actuallyhave to restrict these foods or
be worried about eating thesefoods forever, because it can be
scary when you go oh my gosh,I've worked out that onion
getting a battering, say, I'veworked out onions an issue and
that can be really scary for alot of reasons.
(16:24):
It can cause a lot of anxietyaround food because it's in so
many things, particularly whenyou're eating out, eating in
social occasions, so you know itcan be make it really tricky
and that's why it's so importantto get that help, but so
important to have that slow ratereduction so that over time you
can we can bring it back intoyour diet.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I'm loving how this conversation is going.
Something that I often see iswhere people go hey, so I tried
these diets where I had to cutout all these foods.
I couldn't eat gluten, Icouldn't eat dairy, I couldn't,
and that you know, right all offa whole list of carbohydrates
they feared, and then they go.
Well, then I reintroduced itand it didn't make me feel good,
and so it's kind of this ideaof Torrance level for these
(17:04):
foods that you've been avoidingfor such a long time.
Is it true that what we'redoing is we're trying to help to
get our body accustomed tothese foods and why, you know,
in Disorder eating, we'recreating these really small
lists of safe foods.
Things were allowed to eat.
We're limiting the diversity inour guts, we're making
ourselves more sensitive tothese foods, in fact sometimes
creating a problem where therewas no problem to begin with?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, from where I see it Makes me feel so sad when
I see those really small lists,and I know how scary it can be
to start to bring foods back inbecause how it may have made you
feel in the past or how worriedyou are about how it might have
made you feel, and Sometimesbringing things out can
inadvertently end up causing aproblem, as he said.
(17:47):
So you know, regardless ofwhere you are Getting that
expert help to help to start tobring things back into your diet
so that you can improve thediversity of the plants that
you're eating.
The research is really clearthat for people who eat at least
30 different plants across theweek, they have better gut
health.
They have better healthoutcomes as a result of that.
I know 30 sounds huge, but ifyou sit down and start to count
(18:11):
it out, it may not be as smallas you actually like.
You may not.
You may be having a lot morethan you actually think because
it's not just fruits and veggies, it's your whole grains,
legumes, nuts, seeds, herbs,spices.
So it's pretty easy to get that30 in Particularly.
You know, if you're followingyour beautiful recipes and Linda
, you know you've got so manyamazing ones there that have
(18:32):
that diversity.
What I will say, though, is, ifyou are feeling worried about it
, starts small and you know itdoesn't have to be that whole
meal is like oh my gosh, I'mgoing and having like all the
onion or any other food thatmight be causing it or may cause
a problem for you.
Don't really slow.
Build it up over time.
Part of it is helping yourmicrobiome get used to it.
(18:54):
The other part is helping yourbrain get used to the idea of
eating those foods again.
So starting small is it's lessscary.
Think about anything in life Ifit's feeling a little bit
overwhelming or a little bitscary.
You're not gonna go and do thewhole thing at once.
You just take my little step,little step, little step, and
over time, suddenly you're likeoh my gosh, I got there, amazing
Spot on and they take us backto that conversation we had
(19:14):
about that mental stress or thatphysical stress as well.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So you're kind of anxious about eating your food.
You know that can also create aproblem.
Self-fulfilling nature of it all.
I just want to end this chatand just to bring it to this
intersection we have of bingeeating and IBS and intolerances,
because I think, as you know,with my expertise and your
expertise, something I often getasked about is okay, help, I
(19:40):
binge eat on the very foods thatgive me issues with my gut.
I'm intolerant to these foods,but for some reason, I can't
help but binge eat on them, andso I'm keen to hear your
perspective on this.
What I often find is the veryfoods that we eliminate from our
diet, particularly carbohydratefoods.
I find this most people aregoing.
Well, I'm not bingeing oncarrots, I binge eating on lots
(20:03):
of bread or cereal or whateverit is, and so often what we do
by reintroducing these foods, bygiving permission around them,
you actually eat them in farsmaller quantities than by
eliminating them, and, of course, you still might have those
negative symptoms as a result ofhaving those foods.
But already, by normalizingthem, we're reducing the level
(20:25):
of that symptom, and with time,you can get to a point where you
can start to eat those foods ina bit more of a healthy state.
Chloe, what are your thoughtson this?
Do you approach it similarly?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, hit the nail on the head.
The exact same way, I think bygiving yourself permission to
have it, it causes you to notfeel that requirement to overdo
it, because it's like, oh, thisis a naughty thing or this is a
tree.
This is just part of what I doand it's not a problem.
Also, if we come back to whatwe were saying before, if you
(20:58):
are feeling a bit worried aboutwhat might happen if you have it
, no matter how much you have,well then let's start small.
If it's bread, let's start withyour favorite, beautiful, great
quality one that you know, youreally love, have a slice with
some butter or whatever it isthat you like putting on.
I think I can't remember whereI heard you talking about this
(21:19):
years ago now, but it wassomething about peanut butter on
toast.
And if it's like you feel likeyou can't have the peanut butter
on toast in the house, go tothe cafe and have it, because
then you're giving yourselfpermission to have it but not
then having the ability to goand have, you know, the whole
loaf, because you don't have thewhole loaf, because you just
had your slice at the cafe.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So you can feel really safe to do that and also
to be have other people watchingyou, even if you don't know
those people.
In the restaurant.
Binge eating is so somethingthat we do in secret, where we
feel so judged with hideout,empty wrappers, and simply
making it something that you doin front of other people can be
quite liberating and helpreinforce the idea that that
food is not off limits.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yeah, I've that peanut butter on toast in the
cafe, but I cannot rememberwhere I heard you talking about
it, but it's stuck with me andit's something that I have said
to so many clients over theyears and it's as you say it is
so liberating, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad because there isthis real intersection between
gut symptoms and binge eatingand all of this.
If you do feel like you're outof control with food, I will
just say I've got a free webinar, free training, that I will
leave a link for you to do inthe show notes as well.
I hope you feel like that'ssomething that you need help
with.
You can do that, and I'm goingto give you tips in there that I
(22:36):
haven't shared elsewhere.
Chloe McLeod, you are my go-toperson for these things.
I feel very, very grateful thatyou've had this chat with us.
I feel like lots of people aregoing to benefit from having
this conversation.
Once again, I will leave thenotes for how people can find
Chloe in the description so youcan go and follow her on
Instagram.
You can go and speak to her andher team of dietitians to get
(22:57):
support, because please do,please don't struggle by
yourself.
There is help out there who canhelp you do it without falling
into restrictive traps, and tohelp you feel good in your body,
something you so deserve.
Thank you, chloe.
I hope you loved today'sconversation.
I sure did I definitely.
I learned a lot.
(23:18):
I love Chloe.
She's fabulous.
If you want to go check outChloe Chloe underscore McLeod,
unscored dietitian on Instagramand follow her she's got lots of
great tips.
And also if you are someone whois looking for a little bit
more support to be healthy andyou want emails that don't suck,
I will also leave a link downbelow so you can get on my
(23:38):
newsletter.
I send emails that you actuallywant to open, that have got a
lot of value and things I don'tshare on Instagram.
So go and check that out andI'll see you next time.
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