Struggle to make exercise feel enjoyable and easy to stick to? Worried you'll gain weight once you start eating intuitively?
On today's episode, we're joined by the wonderful Shreen El Masry, who is a body-positive personal trainer, intuitive eating counsellor and author of the book 'Be You Be Free'.
Shreen shares her expertise on making exercise fun and embracing intuitive eating, overcoming the fear of weight gain and breaking free from diet culture. She also shares her personal story on how shifting from weight-focused goals to pleasure-driven activities completely transformed her life.
Tune in for an inspiring conversation that will help you start your journey toward a healthier, happier you.
Want to feel more in control around food? Check out my Stop Struggling With Food Guide, currently on sale for 40% off.
You’ll also find 50 of my favourite recipes to get you inspired!
Get my Free 5 Day Course to help you stop binge and emotional eating.
Looking for more support to feel in control around food? I'd love to support you in my Binge Free Academy.
Come follow me on the gram at @nude_nutritionist (no nude pics, sorry).
Want to share some feedback or have an idea for an episode, I'd LOVE to hear from you - hit me up at hello@lyndicohen.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
For years I always thought it was my fault.
I didn't realise there was awhole other way that you could
look after yourself and approachyour health.
Exercise doesn't have to belike this.
You don't have to hate it.
And then here I come acrossintuitive eating.
I think the scary thing aboutit is the weight gain, and I
think that's one of the hardestthings.
I think it's the thing thatholds people back the most.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
In case you are new here and you've never listened
to this podcast before hi,welcome.
I'm Lindy Cohen.
I'm a dietitian, a nutritionist, someone who used to be a
compulsive, binge, emotionaleater, and now I'm the kind of
person who goes oh, it'slunchtime already.
How did that come around sofast?
I never thought I'd be the kindof person who would lose track
of food, but now I never, evertrack anything, and it's such a
(00:54):
relief.
I don't even know how manymacros are in foods and I'm
delighted by that.
So if you feel like you'vetried all the diets, all the
things you've counted, and youjust are so sick of that
bandwagon and you want to getoff, then I'm going to help you
feel at peace and relaxed aroundfood.
So welcome to the podcast.
All right, let's get intotoday's episode.
(01:16):
Well, well, well, I am veryexcited for you to meet today's
guest.
Today, I'm joined by ShereenEl-Mazri, and she is, I mean,
someone I followed on Instagramfor a very long time.
In fact, I couldn't even tellif I'd met her in person yet
because I thought, oh, I justlove all your content.
She is a body positive writer,a personal trainer, a certified
(01:37):
intuitive eating counselor, andshe's also the author of the
book Be you, be Free, and what Ifind liberating about Shereen.
I mean lots of things, but itcan feel quite rare to find a
personal trainer who has allthese things, who's also very
inclusive in the way that theywork and finding ways for us to
find the joy, the fun inexercise again, and this is
partially what this conversationis about.
(01:59):
Plus, we talk about intuitiveeating.
What can feel scary?
The fear that you might gainweight when you try intuitive
eating, and what it really means.
Does it just mean eat whateveryou want whenever you want?
We're going to be talking aboutit in today's episode, so let's
do it.
Shireen, welcome to the podcast.
(02:20):
I'm very, very, very happy tohave you here.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you so much for having meas a guest.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Oh, such a pleasure.
I would love to hear, foranyone who doesn't know you yet
how did you become a personaltrainer?
Can you tell us your story?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah well, it all started for me when I was
diagnosed with an eatingdisorder when I was 27 years old
.
I was about to be hospitalized.
My counselor told me at thetime that if I didn't get better
, she was going to section meonto the Mental Health Act.
And I was like you know youcan't do that.
I'm 27 years old and you knowyou have no right.
And she was like no, yes, I can.
(02:55):
And that was like the turningpoint that I needed to throw
myself into recovery and that'swhere I just found the non-diet
approach and health every sizeand learned so much about
dieting.
For years.
I always thought it was myfault and I didn't realize there
was a whole other way that youcould look after yourself and
(03:16):
approach your health.
And when I kind of got throughall of that and I recovered, I
was like I just feel like I needto help others with this.
So I decided to have a careerchange and become a body
positive personal trainer and acertified intuitive eating
counselor.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Do you remember in those early phases how it felt
to learn about intuitive eating?
Were there any points where youfelt scared that this approach
was going to lead you to gainweight, feel out of control
around food?
Because I think that some ofthe hesitations people have that
they think if I just let myselfeat with a neutral lens to food
(03:51):
, I think I'm just going to keepeating and never stop.
How did you feel about?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
it.
I definitely found it reallyscary.
I mean, it was amazing, I lovereading it and I was like, yes,
this is amazing, I can't wait totry this.
But there was also part of meit was like and I was like, yes,
this is amazing, I can't waitto try this.
But there was also part of meit was like, okay, I'm really
scared, I don't think this isgoing to work.
Your whole life you've been fedall these messages about certain
foods being, you know, bad foryou and you shouldn't eat these
certain foods, and things likecarbs being bad for you, and I
(04:17):
had such a long list of fearfoods as well.
And then here I come acrossintuitive eating and it tells
you you know, you can eatanything you want.
You know, of course, there's alot more to it, like it's a
self-care model and you get intothat.
But at the beginning of thosestages you know, absolutely, you
do.
You approach it like that.
But I think the scary thingabout it is the weight gain and
(04:39):
I think that's one of thehardest things.
I think it's the thing thatholds people back the most.
But for me, it got to thatpoint where I'd lost so much and
dieting had taken so much fromme and you know, even though I
was most likely to gain weight,I was going to gain so much more
as well.
I was going to gain, you know,my connections back with my
(05:01):
family and friends.
I was going to be able to bepresent again as well.
I mean, I remember I couldn'teven watch a film without
thinking about food.
My sex drive was just, it wasjust non-existent, just not
enjoying.
I missed out on, you know,going on holidays and there's so
many, so many things.
(05:22):
I said no to dinners out,cocktails and yeah.
So I knew that, even though theweight gain was going to be
hard, I was ready for that stageand embracing that.
But that doesn't mean to say itwas easy.
It was still hard to navigatethat.
But the more kind of nourishedthat you become, the more you
can think clearer and the betterthat your life becomes.
(05:43):
So it's hard, but the more youdo it, the easier it kind of
becomes and you, you kind ofgradually become to that place
of like acceptance.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I really like that concept, I think.
When I think about dieting, Ifind it's actually quite easy to
start a diet because you getgiven a list of rules do this,
eat this at this point, and yougo.
Okay, I just have to follow therules.
But the longer you diet, theharder and harder and harder it
gets, and then after years andyears of dieting, it is so
(06:15):
incredibly hard and I findintuitive eating the opposite.
I think the hardest part isgetting started where you're
going.
Oh, my goodness, I have tototally revolutionize how I
think about food, about what I'mallowed to eat, what I'm
allowed to eat.
But, as you're saying, it getseasier and easier and easier.
So the hardest bit is this fearwhere you're going.
I'm scared I'm going to gainweight.
I'm scared I'm going to losecontrol around food.
(06:35):
And, as you said, you got tothis point where you thought
what do I have to lose?
I've lost so much already and Ithink that's a very useful kind
of reframe of thinking aboutall the things that you've lost
already.
Um, instead of you know all thethings you think you're going
to gain by staying at the weightthat you are.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think one one turning pointfor me was um, one of my binge
foods used to be peanut butter.
I couldn't keep peanut butterin the house.
I'd literally just like, youknow, I'd always end up elbow
deep in jars of peanut butter.
And when I started intuitiveeating, it's like you know, give
yourself unconditionalpermission to eat.
You know, I just thought youknow how is this going to go.
(07:16):
And you know, at first I didconsume a lot of peanut butter
still, but like now they sits inmy cupboard and I have to throw
it out because it goes bad.
And I never believed I'd everget to that point where I could
have peanut butter in the house,and not only sitting there, but
also that I've forgotten aboutthat's, you know, gone dry and
yeah.
So that was a big point partfor me.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
This is a huge victory and I think, for anyone
listening going, you're exactlyat this point right now where
food feels like it controls youa lot.
So something like peanut butteror chips or whatever it is
feels like it really controlsyou.
You can get to a point whereyou're like Shereen and there is
that neutrality and you evenforget that the food even exists
.
Can you talk to me?
Let's talk about exercise alittle bit, because I know that
(08:00):
is something that you areexceptional at providing a safe
place for people of all sizes tofeel comfortable to exercise.
When I was exercising, it verymuch was always tied to losing
weight.
It was almost like that was theway I was raised.
It was something that you didto control your weight and, as a
result, exercise was a joyless,unenjoyable punishment for me.
Do you think this is thebiggest barrier, or what do you
(08:24):
think is the biggest barrier forpeople of all sizes exercising?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I mean definitely how you said that weight exercise
is completely associated withweight loss.
And you know, the truth is thatexercising for weight loss does
the complete opposite.
It demotivates us, it gives uspoor body image, can lead to
eating disorders, disorderedeating, and it makes us not,
like you say, say it takes allthe joy out of it and it
actually means we don't want todo it or stick to it long term.
(08:51):
When you shift your mindset toexercising how it makes you feel
and choosing exercise that youenjoy and approaching exercise
from a place of self-care ratherthan self-punishment, you know
that that's the biggest shift.
But I think, in terms of, asyou're saying, with people and,
you know, being inclusive foreverybody, I find that
(09:12):
traditional fitness spaces canbe very, very intimidating,
especially those who are inlarger bodies.
They've had very, very badexperiences in in gyms and
they've gone there and they'vebeen, you know, shamed for their
size or automatically assumedthat they are there to lose
weight.
Um, and then they kind of getthis like you know, awful praise
(09:33):
, like, oh, good for you, youknow, and it's, you know, a lot
of weight stigma, and thenthat's a really, really negative
experience for that person.
Um, and not only that as well,they're not catering to all
bodies in those classes andthey're assuming that everybody
is this you know, one type ofbody and type of fitness,
whereas you know being inclusiveis having.
(09:54):
You know, having a safe space,but also providing you know like
variations of exercises andunderstanding how different
bodies and different body sizeswork.
I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
I think that's really important.
I think that's a veryliberating idea, and I think
that's why the work that you dofeel so important to me is
because you are kind ofrewriting how exercise can look
for people of all sizes, alldifferent types of bodies, and I
think it's an exciting thing tosee how you can kind of create
those modifications that perhapspeople have not even considered
before.
How do you then find anexercise that you enjoy, an
(10:30):
exercise that feels right foryou?
What would be the process there?
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I think the most important step I always find is
a lot of people again, like yousay have this association with
exercise that it has to be hardwork, has to be painful, it's
not enjoyable, and then itshould be this, it should be
that and it's got to be, youknow, set amount of time, reps.
And I think the most importantthing is understanding that
exercise can be anything youwant it to be and that any
(10:55):
regular movement has the samehealth benefits.
So you know, that's, um, youknow, dancing, swimming, hula
hooping, you know it could becleaning, walking your dog,
playing with your kids and petsthat all has exactly the same
health benefits.
Um, and even in some studiesactually, it's shown that, like
it, vacuuming is, you know, evenmore beneficial for health than
(11:16):
in some other classes because,especially like when you, you
know you're really getting intocleaning.
So I think that is one of thebiggest misconceptions when
people sort of go, okay, hang ona sec, I don't have to do
thisIT class or do this or dosomething I don't like.
You know, it's really aboutfinding movement that you enjoy,
if that is going for a walk orthat's, you know, dancing around
(11:36):
your lounge room, or cleaningthe house doing some gardening
and just knowing that has thesame health benefits, and so
that's a huge part of it.
And also kind of learning thehistory about those toxic um
fitness messages that we get,you know, like go hard or go
home, and again, you know thisis just complete rubbish,
created by the dining industryto you know, yeah, to make you
(12:00):
feel bad and exercise out ofshame and punishment, and it's
all just complete rubbish.
Where the truth is, you know,exercising intuitively and in a
way that makes you feel good isgoing to be so much more
beneficial, not just for thebody in terms of like stress as
well, but also enjoying it andsticking to it long term.
So I think that's definitely, Ifeel, like the first step.
(12:20):
And then just knowing thatthere is a way to exercise that
isn't one from, you know,punishment, like knowing that
you know you can stop yourworkout if you want to.
You don't have to do all thosereps or those sets, or you know
it doesn't matter.
It's really about tuning intoyour body and listening to your
body, and you know I always liketo ask myself these questions
before I work out, which is youknow, how am I feeling today?
(12:43):
How is my body feeling?
You know what is it I feel likedoing today, if anything and
you can go a little bit deeperinto that.
You know you might be feelinglike you've got a lot of high
energy and something might be abit more intense, might be soon
for you, or you might be feelinga bit stressed, so you might
feel like, okay, I could go fora walk and listen to a podcast
and you know, it's just reallysort of getting that connection
(13:06):
with your body and, yeah, justfinding a whole new positive
relationship with exercise.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
What would you say to someone who had the thought in
their brain oh, what's the pointof doing just 10 minutes of
exercise?
I'm not going to move the dialby doing 10 minutes of exercise
a day.
What would you say to thatperson?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
What I was saying before, like 10 minutes, is, in
fact, the studies show that allyou need is 10 minutes a day to
lower your mortality rate.
And you know, 10 minutes isactually, you know, better than
nine minutes, and I think that'sagain the thing with exercise.
We've been taught it's this allor nothing, isn't it?
It's like okay, okay, we'regonna go, really go into it, I'm
gonna get into this routine,and then, of course, it's you
know, you can't stick to it um,whereas actually 10 minutes I
(13:49):
mean, there's this new conceptgoing around at the moment,
called exercise snacking.
Have you heard about it?
Which I love?
I love it and that's a greatthing.
You know, like just that 10minutes, like, okay, I'm gonna,
you know, do something you likefor 10 minutes.
It could just be putting onyour favorite music and dancing,
could be doing some squats, or,you know, grabbing some weights
and doing that little burstthroughout the day.
Um, it's not only is it just asbeneficial, it's probably even
(14:12):
more so because you're morelikely going to do that and
stick to it, but also it's moreenjoyable and it's just more
achievable as well, and I just Ilove this concept and I'm glad
it's getting popular so, true,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
and and that you so.
I mean, as you said, exercisebuilds into a self-care model.
When I had my recent baby,charlie, you know, after, in
postpartum, it's just you feelso weak, your stomach muscles
have really just kind of beenthrough the ringer, and so I set
myself this goal of just doing10 minutes, where I turn up each
day and I'd put on a littleworkout to help me reconnect
(14:47):
between my stomach muscles, mypelvic floor, and even if I just
wanted to lie there or I justwanted to do a stretch, I really
had to throw out this idea that10 minutes wasn't going to get
me to where I wanted to go,which is to rebuild my strength.
But I turned up every singleday and I made it very enjoyable
and progressively, because Ifound it enjoyable, I added a
(15:09):
few minutes here and there and,next thing, you knew I was, and
it does take months.
It's a really long process, butI had to rebuild my strength
and I think that was a reallyimportant thing.
One of the barriers I noticedwhile I was doing that exercise
and I really had to pushbackagainst it were the internal
thoughts I had around my bodyimage during the time I was so
(15:29):
much heavier than I normally was.
Having exercise clothes thatdidn't impact me was really
important, even having a mirror,I think these days you go to a
Pilates class and there'smirrors all around.
It's reinforcing this idea.
I think that how you look whileyou exercise is important, and
I understand there's so muchpurpose between being able to
(15:52):
see form and how you're doingsomething.
But I think if you'reidentifying that exercising in
front of a mirror is triggeringfor you, you don't have to
exercise in front of a mirror.
And what are your thoughts onthis?
Speaker 1 (16:04):
I think definitely not exercising in front of a
mirror and what are yourthoughts on this?
I think I think definitely not.
Exercising in front of a mirroris a really great way to
exercise from a place ofself-care because, like you say,
you do become kind of focusedon your body image if you can
see yourself, um, but you say interms, you know, sometimes for
form and technique there is aplace for that, but I feel like
I just don't think it's thatnecessary.
(16:25):
I think think yes, for mepersonally, scrap the mirrors
and wear exercise clothes thatyou feel comfortable in.
I mean, most of the time Iexercise in my pajamas because
that's how I feel most comfy inmy gym jams.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I mean, I love that.
I feel like my boobs would belike hitting me in the face if I
tried that.
I will give it a whirl andwe're going to see how we go.
One of my pet peeves when I'vegone to exercises classes before
is the personal trainer who'syelling at you and says
something to the extent ofeveryone has to hold a plank,
and if someone drops out of theplank we all start again and
(16:59):
there's nothing that feels moreshamey and blamey and
punishmenty about that thenthose kinds of statements, the
idea that me listening to mybody and the fact that this is
not feeling comfortable for meis going to jeopardize everyone
else's happiness, and then I'mgoing to be publicly shamed as a
result.
I think that type of trainingneeds to die, is no place and is
(17:20):
certainly nothing healthy aboutthat.
So I think who you go to to getyour exercise support from
matters so much and, as you'resaying, you have to feel
comfortable.
If something's not feeling goodfor you, you're allowed to find
someone like yourself who isgoing to tailor it, so you come
out of your workout and you feelgood.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, that's it.
It's finding a safe andcompassionate fitness space
where you can feel comfortable,where there's no judgment, no
talk of body image, food youknow, earning and burning food
and all of that stuff,especially what you just said.
That sounds horrible.
I'm sorry that you went throughthat.
That's yeah, I mean I've had afair share of awful experiences.
(18:00):
I remember one spin instructorthat was like first to vomit,
I'll buy you a bottle ofchampagne.
It's like you want people to besick and yeah, but that one,
that's awful.
Like you said, that's likepublicly shaming and the thing
with that instructor, they'regoing against the complete
opposite, because you know tofeel intrinsically motivated, as
(18:20):
you know, you need a positiveexperience and to feel good.
And going to a class like that,you're going to come out of
there and you're going to belike, oh, I'm never going back
to that class, I don't want todo that exercise again.
And then it also puts you offgoing to other fitness spaces as
well.
So it's really, I mean there's.
You know, I'm also reallypassionate about trying to
educate other personal trainersas well.
(18:42):
On, you know how to be moreinclusive, because I've diet
culture does have a lot to blame, you know, and I think a lot of
people just don't realize, andthat's what they're taught.
You know, my personal trainingqualification was terrible.
It's, you know, rife with dietculture, and they just don't
know any other way.
And I think, yeah, just beingable to get that message out
there, um, not just the trainers, but also to to people as well,
(19:04):
that you know exercise doesn'thave to be like this.
You know, there are there aresafe spaces, there are ways that
you can approach exercise froma place of self care.
You don't have to feel shamedor you don't have to hate it.
Um, and I just think there's alot of people come to me, go, oh
I, oh, I never even knew therewas another way to exercise.
I thought this was it.
I think so that it's just yeah,and I think just getting the
message out there is soimportant.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
And that feels quite liberating to me.
I had to go through a big phaseof trying to learn what
exercise I enjoyed, and for methat very much looked like
pulling back from intensity.
I had to go back to anenjoyable walk with a podcast or
a hike, something that didn'tfeel like it was just about me
trying to to look a certain way,and I guess that's the the
(19:48):
question I have.
What advice do you have forlisteners who are at that stage
going okay, but how do I evenfind joyful movements?
And, and is there a process?
Do I just sign up to a bunch ofclasses?
Do I just experiment?
Do I hope for the best?
Are there ways that I couldGoogle to find a personal
trainer who's going to be morealigned?
What tips do you have forpeople?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
The one thing that I love to do is a little activity,
which is to I call it like thecircle of joy activity, where
you write down all the exerciseor movement activities that you
enjoy now, all the ones that youthink you might enjoy and all
the ones that you used to enjoyas a child, because I think
that's really important.
And then you write them alldown and you kind of circle all
the ones.
You look at it and go, okay,I'm going to circle the ones
(20:27):
that are realistic for me toactually try.
I want to try and then chooseone thing each week to give a go
and then start doing it thatway.
I find that's a really good wayto kind of find the enjoyable
movement.
But I think what's importantabout that as well, that your
enjoyable movement may change,so you might be really enjoying
something for some time and thenyou might go off it and that's
(20:48):
okay, and you might find anotherenjoyable movement.
Because I think people think,oh, okay, I love this.
I have to do this forever now,which which isn't the case
either, because you know you'reyou're going to change, we
change, you know, things that weonce enjoyed we're not going to
, but I think and just againgetting that message out there
that you know exercise can beanything you want it to be and
(21:08):
you know, going for a walk orlistening to a podcast, having a
little dance party, you knowthat's all valid movement and I
think that really helps.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Spot on, and I think this ties into a conversation
around self-blame.
I think in the past I had atendency to do an exercise and
if I found it hard to stick tothat exercise, I blame myself.
I'd say, oh, you're beinginconsistent, you need better
willpower, instead of realizingthat I just lost the joy for
whatever it is I was trying todo, instead of blaming yourself
(21:39):
going.
The reason you can't exerciseis because you suck.
No, let's reframe this.
And that's just not what'shappening at all.
The exercise you are attemptingto push yourself to do, to
force yourself to do, is justnot suited to you.
So going through thatexperimentation phase, like
Shereen mentioned, I thinkthat's a really, really key one.
Another barrier I think that wedon't talk about enough is when
(22:00):
you're scared of people judgingyou for existing in a larger
body.
So you don't want to go into agym because you're worried that
everyone's going to go.
What are you doing here?
Or I used to find when I was ina bigger body, I found it
really I'd either do one thingI'd be really self-conscious to
go for a run because I'd worriedeveryone would just be judging
me and I'd tell myself storiesabout all the things they were
(22:22):
thinking to themselves as theysaw my body, or I would force
myself to be in public places sothat I felt pressure to keep
running, so that people wouldthink, oh, of course she has to
keep running.
It can go both ways.
So what are some things thatyou can help us when it comes to
feeling like we need to look acertain way before we're allowed
(22:44):
to start exercising in public?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
spaces.
I think that's such a reallygood point that you've made is
that you know people do feelintimidated going into a gym
environment and they've hadthose negative experiences and I
think the best thing to do ifyou can is to find a more
supportive and inclusive fitnessspace, um, but if that isn't
available to you, I mean takinga friend can be something really
(23:08):
help with, like, going there.
So you've got that kind ofsupport.
But I mean, the truth is,people in the gym I mean, as you
know, they only care aboutthemselves, right, that's it
like, yeah, they're not, butthat I mean it doesn't stop you
from feeling that way and, likeyou say, when you are, um, in a,
in a larger body, you've hadthose experiences and that that
(23:28):
weight stigma before, where theymight have tried to even weigh
you, or you know trying to pusha program on you, or you go into
the toilet and they've gotthose awful before and after
pictures and you know all thismessaging um.
But like I mean if, if you findthat, I mean taking a friend, I
think knowing that peoplearen't paying attention, but I
think you know, if that's reallysomething that's not going to
(23:50):
work for you, then doing anonline finding, an online
community might be better to getyour confidence up first.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
I really, I really appreciate that.
I always think as well withbody image.
We can sometimes think of itlike a destination, like you one
day go oh cool, I want to reacha Mecca where I suddenly feel
really great about my body and Inever have to worry.
But sadly, we live in a worldthat constantly tells us that
your worth is dependent on howyou look and therefore I think
about body images more of like ayoga practice.
(24:20):
It is just a constant practicewhere the world is going to
throw you judgments about howyou think you're meant to look
and you need to have, you needto build up the skills so that
when you get the thought thatgoes oh my goodness, I bet
they're wondering like I can'tbelieve that woman's exercising
when she looks like that youhave to be able to offer
yourself a reminder and thesefrequent reminders and go.
(24:40):
You know what.
No one's thinking that orthat's okay, I'm allowed to
exercise, my body is worthy ofrespect.
So you have these go-tostatements, almost like you're
like whoosh, whoosh, whoosh.
You can just fire back yourlike punchy one-liners.
Because you need to have thesereminders as backup, because
you're doing the practice ofbody image practice.
Yeah, definitely.
(25:02):
I love that.
That's great.
Let's talk a little bit aboutintuitive eating and non-dieting
and all that jazz.
I think there is a bit ofconfusion about what intuitive
eating is and what non-dietingis, and I don't think that while
they're similar and they tieinto each other, they are not
(25:24):
one in the same, and so I thinkthere's a misconception that
intuitive eating is just eatwhatever I want whenever I want,
and that's not the case.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout that?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the biggestmisconception about intuitive
eating is that, as you said also, that it doesn't care about
health, which isn't the case atall.
You know, intuitive eating is aself-care model.
It's about, you know, tuninginto your body, eating foods
that make you feel good, eatingfoods that you know nourish you,
(25:53):
sustain you.
But to get to that stage that'sthat kind of like eat what I
want, eat whenever I want.
I mean, at the beginning ofintuitive eating you do have to
kind of let go of all those dietrules and you've just kind of,
you know, you've kind of got tothrow yourself in.
So I think that's where it'skind of got that idea.
Because the problem is, if yougo into intuitive eating already
with a set of rules, it's thesame as a diet, right, because
you're going in there, going,okay, I can only eat when I'm
(26:14):
hungry.
I've got to stop when I'm full.
And there's so much nuancearound that I mean when you've
come out of a period of dietingor an eating disorder, as you
know, you are starving, ok, soyour hunger levels are going to
be all over the place.
It's going to take a littlewhile for your hunger signals to
, you know, regulate again andby eating consistently and
nourishing your body.
That's all going to help.
And same with your fullnesssignals.
(26:35):
We've obviously always beentaught to you know, eat
everything on our plate as wewere growing up, and also in
dining, you give yourself thesetiny little portions, right, and
you eat everything because youknow, okay, this is all I'm
going to have for the day.
And it's really about tuninginto you know what fullness
feels like for you and givingyourself enough food.
So, but I think, yeah, withintuitive eating, it is a
(26:57):
self-care approach.
It does care about health.
It's very much about eatingfoods that make you feel good
and sustain you, but it's aboutjust having no rules, rejecting
all those shoulds and you know,those don'ts and everything from
from diet culture and just umrelearning to eat in the way
that you're born with and Ithink what you've described here
(27:19):
is almost that.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I think of it like a refeeding period.
Once you start to come, you gookay, I'm allowed to eat
anything I want.
There is this refeeding periodwhere you, as you said, you are
starved, emotionally andphysically hungry and, like you
talked about with your peanutbutter experience, once you put
it back on the menu, there was aperiod of time where you went a
little bit like, oh, I can havepeanut butter, finally, I can
(27:41):
have peanut butter, finally Ican eat it all the time.
And you did.
And after a while you startedto realize, oh, I can eat peanut
butter anytime I want.
And with that realization andnot just thought, but the real
deep sinking into the acceptancethat peanut butter truly is
always allowed, it's never goingto be taken off the menu that's
when you started to find that,oh, you found your balance with
peanut butter and peanut butterlost its power over you.
(28:02):
And so I think this is I don'teven know how to describe it yet
, but in my mind I think aboutit as like a murky forest in
intuitive eating, as I said,it's the hardest bit is getting
started, because you do have totrudge through this murky period
in the beginning, where youstart to bring these foods back
in.
You reintroduce them I teachyou how to do this in my Binge
Free Academy and how do weintroduce them in a way that
(28:22):
doesn't make us feel triggeredto go on a diet again, because
that is one of the challenges aswell.
You go through recovery.
Some people gain weight, yougain weight, you go almost now I
have to go back to those oldcoping strategies and you ditch
intuitive eating because youdon't have the right structure
around it.
But I guess what you're sayingwas I want everyone to know this
is there is a murky period andyou do come out of the other end
of it and you have that calmand the relaxed, responsive food
(28:46):
and that's when you can startto go okay.
Well, now I can incorporate abit more of the I'm going to
wait till I feel hungry conceptinto it because you can, whereas
before it started to sometimesit can feel like a diet rule
where you're going I have towait until I'm hungry before I'm
eat, and then you start to beable to lean into the idea of
I'm allowed to wait until I feelhungry to eat a little bit more
as you progress and as yourecover more, it can feel like
(29:10):
when you quit dieting you canlose yourself a little bit.
I know I felt that way.
I felt as though my identitywas very much dieting.
I was the diet guru in my groupat high school.
I was obsessed with losingweight.
It was my identity, and whenyou get to this point where you
go I don't want to be thisperson anymore you can feel
quite lost.
(29:30):
Can you relate to this and howdo you find yourself again at
this point?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Oh, definitely.
I think the thing, as youexplained so well, dieting, you
know it does serve this purpose,this identity, for us, but what
it actually does is, you know,distracts us, right.
So it takes us away frompursuing our true goals and the
things that we're reallypassionate about, because we're
so focused and hyper focused ondieting that we just don't have
(29:57):
the brain space for anythingelse.
And we've also been taught thatour whole self-worth is around
dialing and, you know, losingweight and our body image.
So we feel like, you know, okay, that is a valid identity.
And when you stop dialing, youfind, like you say, you find
yourself a little bit lost,because you know that dialing
was that control as well, it was, you know, having something to
focus on.
(30:18):
And then suddenly you're like,okay, you know, what do I do now
and I say in terms of emotionsas well.
A lot of people really strugglewith that because they may have
used dieting as a copingmechanism as well.
So it's really working on thatemotional well-being, but I
think, also just looking at itas like, wow, you know, I now
have the brain space, I now have, you know, I can be present, I
can pursue my dreams and my andone of the things I like to do
(30:41):
is like writing a list of allthose things that dining might
have held you back from if thatwas, you know, not applying for
that job or not going to havinga swim at the beach, not getting
that haircut, not going awaywith your friends for the
weekend because you have to be acertain weight.
Writing down all those thingsand slowly starting to do all
those things that dining heldyou back from and ticking that
(31:03):
off slowly, I think that's oneof the best ways to start living
again and finding things thatyou enjoy.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I love it, a non-diet bucket list.
I think that is really cool tomake you feel like yourself and
find your spark again.
Shireen, I've loved chatting toyou, but I want to hear about
you have a book called Be you,be Free.
Can you tell us about it?
Because if you like thisconversation then I bet you're
going to like this book.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
So Be you, be Free is more than just a book.
It is a workbook and guide allin one that will help you break
free from dialing and find yourtrue identity and purpose
outside darling as well.
It will help you, you know,find food freedom, build a
positive body image and a realfun relationship with exercise,
(31:48):
but mostly it will help youbecome the person that you were
meant to be before diet culturetold you who you had to be oh, I
love this so much, and wherecan people get the book?
you can find it through myinstagram, which is shireen
underscore bub3.
There's a link on there andthere's also lots of helpful
content around exercise and bodyimage and things like that that
(32:08):
you might find too.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
If you don't follow Shireen already, I am going to
leave a link in the show notesso you can go follow her.
I love following you, shireen.
I feel like you give such goodtips.
I love your content.
Please do go follow along and,shireen, thank you so much for
today's conversation and allyour tips.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Thank you so much for having me.
For years I always thought it was my fault.
I didn't realise there was awhole other way that you could
look after yourself and approachyour health.
Exercise doesn't have to belike this.
You don't have to hate it.
And then here I come acrossintuitive eating.
I think the scary thing aboutit is the weight gain, and I
think that's one of the hardestthings.
I think it's the thing thatholds people back the most.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
In case you are new here and you've never listened
to this podcast before hi,welcome.
I'm Lindy Cohen.
I'm a dietitian, a nutritionist, someone who used to be a
compulsive, binge, emotionaleater, and now I'm the kind of
person who goes oh, it'slunchtime already.
How did that come around sofast?
I never thought I'd be the kindof person who would lose track
of food, but now I never, evertrack anything, and it's such a
(00:54):
relief.
I don't even know how manymacros are in foods and I'm
delighted by that.
So if you feel like you'vetried all the diets, all the
things you've counted, and youjust are so sick of that
bandwagon and you want to getoff, then I'm going to help you
feel at peace and relaxed aroundfood.
So welcome to the podcast.
All right, let's get intotoday's episode.
(01:16):
Well, well, well, I am veryexcited for you to meet today's
guest.
Today, I'm joined by ShereenEl-Mazri, and she is, I mean,
someone I followed on Instagramfor a very long time.
In fact, I couldn't even tellif I'd met her in person yet
because I thought, oh, I justlove all your content.
She is a body positive writer,a personal trainer, a certified
(01:37):
intuitive eating counselor, andshe's also the author of the
book Be you, be Free, and what Ifind liberating about Shereen.
I mean lots of things, but itcan feel quite rare to find a
personal trainer who has allthese things, who's also very
inclusive in the way that theywork and finding ways for us to
find the joy, the fun inexercise again, and this is
partially what this conversationis about.
(01:59):
Plus, we talk about intuitiveeating.
What can feel scary?
The fear that you might gainweight when you try intuitive
eating, and what it really means.
Does it just mean eat whateveryou want whenever you want?
We're going to be talking aboutit in today's episode, so let's
do it.
Shireen, welcome to the podcast.
(02:20):
I'm very, very, very happy tohave you here.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you so much for having meas a guest.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Oh, such a pleasure.
I would love to hear, foranyone who doesn't know you yet
how did you become a personaltrainer?
Can you tell us your story?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah well, it all started for me when I was
diagnosed with an eatingdisorder when I was 27 years old
.
I was about to be hospitalized.
My counselor told me at thetime that if I didn't get better
, she was going to section meonto the Mental Health Act.
And I was like you know youcan't do that.
I'm 27 years old and you knowyou have no right.
And she was like no, yes, I can.
(02:55):
And that was like the turningpoint that I needed to throw
myself into recovery and that'swhere I just found the non-diet
approach and health every sizeand learned so much about
dieting.
For years.
I always thought it was myfault and I didn't realize there
was a whole other way that youcould look after yourself and
(03:16):
approach your health.
And when I kind of got throughall of that and I recovered, I
was like I just feel like I needto help others with this.
So I decided to have a careerchange and become a body
positive personal trainer and acertified intuitive eating
counselor.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Do you remember in those early phases how it felt
to learn about intuitive eating?
Were there any points where youfelt scared that this approach
was going to lead you to gainweight, feel out of control
around food?
Because I think that some ofthe hesitations people have that
they think if I just let myselfeat with a neutral lens to food
(03:51):
, I think I'm just going to keepeating and never stop.
How did you feel about?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
it.
I definitely found it reallyscary.
I mean, it was amazing, I lovereading it and I was like, yes,
this is amazing, I can't wait totry this.
But there was also part of meit was like and I was like, yes,
this is amazing, I can't waitto try this.
But there was also part of meit was like, okay, I'm really
scared, I don't think this isgoing to work.
Your whole life you've been fedall these messages about certain
foods being, you know, bad foryou and you shouldn't eat these
certain foods, and things likecarbs being bad for you, and I
(04:17):
had such a long list of fearfoods as well.
And then here I come acrossintuitive eating and it tells
you you know, you can eatanything you want.
You know, of course, there's alot more to it, like it's a
self-care model and you get intothat.
But at the beginning of thosestages you know, absolutely, you
do.
You approach it like that.
But I think the scary thingabout it is the weight gain and
(04:39):
I think that's one of thehardest things.
I think it's the thing thatholds people back the most.
But for me, it got to thatpoint where I'd lost so much and
dieting had taken so much fromme and you know, even though I
was most likely to gain weight,I was going to gain so much more
as well.
I was going to gain, you know,my connections back with my
(05:01):
family and friends.
I was going to be able to bepresent again as well.
I mean, I remember I couldn'teven watch a film without
thinking about food.
My sex drive was just, it wasjust non-existent, just not
enjoying.
I missed out on, you know,going on holidays and there's so
many, so many things.
(05:22):
I said no to dinners out,cocktails and yeah.
So I knew that, even though theweight gain was going to be
hard, I was ready for that stageand embracing that.
But that doesn't mean to say itwas easy.
It was still hard to navigatethat.
But the more kind of nourishedthat you become, the more you
can think clearer and the betterthat your life becomes.
(05:43):
So it's hard, but the more youdo it, the easier it kind of
becomes and you, you kind ofgradually become to that place
of like acceptance.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I really like that concept, I think.
When I think about dieting, Ifind it's actually quite easy to
start a diet because you getgiven a list of rules do this,
eat this at this point, and yougo.
Okay, I just have to follow therules.
But the longer you diet, theharder and harder and harder it
gets, and then after years andyears of dieting, it is so
(06:15):
incredibly hard and I findintuitive eating the opposite.
I think the hardest part isgetting started where you're
going.
Oh, my goodness, I have tototally revolutionize how I
think about food, about what I'mallowed to eat, what I'm
allowed to eat.
But, as you're saying, it getseasier and easier and easier.
So the hardest bit is this fearwhere you're going.
I'm scared I'm going to gainweight.
I'm scared I'm going to losecontrol around food.
(06:35):
And, as you said, you got tothis point where you thought
what do I have to lose?
I've lost so much already and Ithink that's a very useful kind
of reframe of thinking aboutall the things that you've lost
already.
Um, instead of you know all thethings you think you're going
to gain by staying at the weightthat you are.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think one one turning pointfor me was um, one of my binge
foods used to be peanut butter.
I couldn't keep peanut butterin the house.
I'd literally just like, youknow, I'd always end up elbow
deep in jars of peanut butter.
And when I started intuitiveeating, it's like you know, give
yourself unconditionalpermission to eat.
You know, I just thought youknow how is this going to go.
(07:16):
And you know, at first I didconsume a lot of peanut butter
still, but like now they sits inmy cupboard and I have to throw
it out because it goes bad.
And I never believed I'd everget to that point where I could
have peanut butter in the house,and not only sitting there, but
also that I've forgotten aboutthat's, you know, gone dry and
yeah.
So that was a big point partfor me.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
This is a huge victory and I think, for anyone
listening going, you're exactlyat this point right now where
food feels like it controls youa lot.
So something like peanut butteror chips or whatever it is
feels like it really controlsyou.
You can get to a point whereyou're like Shereen and there is
that neutrality and you evenforget that the food even exists
.
Can you talk to me?
Let's talk about exercise alittle bit, because I know that
(08:00):
is something that you areexceptional at providing a safe
place for people of all sizes tofeel comfortable to exercise.
When I was exercising, it verymuch was always tied to losing
weight.
It was almost like that was theway I was raised.
It was something that you didto control your weight and, as a
result, exercise was a joyless,unenjoyable punishment for me.
Do you think this is thebiggest barrier, or what do you
(08:24):
think is the biggest barrier forpeople of all sizes exercising?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I mean definitely how you said that weight exercise
is completely associated withweight loss.
And you know, the truth is thatexercising for weight loss does
the complete opposite.
It demotivates us, it gives uspoor body image, can lead to
eating disorders, disorderedeating, and it makes us not,
like you say, say it takes allthe joy out of it and it
actually means we don't want todo it or stick to it long term.
(08:51):
When you shift your mindset toexercising how it makes you feel
and choosing exercise that youenjoy and approaching exercise
from a place of self-care ratherthan self-punishment, you know
that that's the biggest shift.
But I think, in terms of, asyou're saying, with people and,
you know, being inclusive foreverybody, I find that
(09:12):
traditional fitness spaces canbe very, very intimidating,
especially those who are inlarger bodies.
They've had very, very badexperiences in in gyms and
they've gone there and they'vebeen, you know, shamed for their
size or automatically assumedthat they are there to lose
weight.
Um, and then they kind of getthis like you know, awful praise
(09:33):
, like, oh, good for you, youknow, and it's, you know, a lot
of weight stigma, and thenthat's a really, really negative
experience for that person.
Um, and not only that as well,they're not catering to all
bodies in those classes andthey're assuming that everybody
is this you know, one type ofbody and type of fitness,
whereas you know being inclusiveis having.
(09:54):
You know, having a safe space,but also providing you know like
variations of exercises andunderstanding how different
bodies and different body sizeswork.
I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
I think that's really important.
I think that's a veryliberating idea, and I think
that's why the work that you dofeel so important to me is
because you are kind ofrewriting how exercise can look
for people of all sizes, alldifferent types of bodies, and I
think it's an exciting thing tosee how you can kind of create
those modifications that perhapspeople have not even considered
before.
How do you then find anexercise that you enjoy, an
(10:30):
exercise that feels right foryou?
What would be the process there?
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I think the most important step I always find is
a lot of people again, like yousay have this association with
exercise that it has to be hardwork, has to be painful, it's
not enjoyable, and then itshould be this, it should be
that and it's got to be, youknow, set amount of time, reps.
And I think the most importantthing is understanding that
exercise can be anything youwant it to be and that any
(10:55):
regular movement has the samehealth benefits.
So you know, that's, um, youknow, dancing, swimming, hula
hooping, you know it could becleaning, walking your dog,
playing with your kids and petsthat all has exactly the same
health benefits.
Um, and even in some studiesactually, it's shown that, like
it, vacuuming is, you know, evenmore beneficial for health than
(11:16):
in some other classes because,especially like when you, you
know you're really getting intocleaning.
So I think that is one of thebiggest misconceptions when
people sort of go, okay, hang ona sec, I don't have to do
thisIT class or do this or dosomething I don't like.
You know, it's really aboutfinding movement that you enjoy,
if that is going for a walk orthat's, you know, dancing around
(11:36):
your lounge room, or cleaningthe house doing some gardening
and just knowing that has thesame health benefits, and so
that's a huge part of it.
And also kind of learning thehistory about those toxic um
fitness messages that we get,you know, like go hard or go
home, and again, you know thisis just complete rubbish,
created by the dining industryto you know, yeah, to make you
(12:00):
feel bad and exercise out ofshame and punishment, and it's
all just complete rubbish.
Where the truth is, you know,exercising intuitively and in a
way that makes you feel good isgoing to be so much more
beneficial, not just for thebody in terms of like stress as
well, but also enjoying it andsticking to it long term.
So I think that's definitely, Ifeel, like the first step.
(12:20):
And then just knowing thatthere is a way to exercise that
isn't one from, you know,punishment, like knowing that
you know you can stop yourworkout if you want to.
You don't have to do all thosereps or those sets, or you know
it doesn't matter.
It's really about tuning intoyour body and listening to your
body, and you know I always liketo ask myself these questions
before I work out, which is youknow, how am I feeling today?
(12:43):
How is my body feeling?
You know what is it I feel likedoing today, if anything and
you can go a little bit deeperinto that.
You know you might be feelinglike you've got a lot of high
energy and something might be abit more intense, might be soon
for you, or you might be feelinga bit stressed, so you might
feel like, okay, I could go fora walk and listen to a podcast
and you know, it's just reallysort of getting that connection
(13:06):
with your body and, yeah, justfinding a whole new positive
relationship with exercise.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
What would you say to someone who had the thought in
their brain oh, what's the pointof doing just 10 minutes of
exercise?
I'm not going to move the dialby doing 10 minutes of exercise
a day.
What would you say to thatperson?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
What I was saying before, like 10 minutes, is, in
fact, the studies show that allyou need is 10 minutes a day to
lower your mortality rate.
And you know, 10 minutes isactually, you know, better than
nine minutes, and I think that'sagain the thing with exercise.
We've been taught it's this allor nothing, isn't it?
It's like okay, okay, we'regonna go, really go into it, I'm
gonna get into this routine,and then, of course, it's you
know, you can't stick to it um,whereas actually 10 minutes I
(13:49):
mean, there's this new conceptgoing around at the moment,
called exercise snacking.
Have you heard about it?
Which I love?
I love it and that's a greatthing.
You know, like just that 10minutes, like, okay, I'm gonna,
you know, do something you likefor 10 minutes.
It could just be putting onyour favorite music and dancing,
could be doing some squats, or,you know, grabbing some weights
and doing that little burstthroughout the day.
Um, it's not only is it just asbeneficial, it's probably even
(14:12):
more so because you're morelikely going to do that and
stick to it, but also it's moreenjoyable and it's just more
achievable as well, and I just Ilove this concept and I'm glad
it's getting popular so, true,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
and and that you so.
I mean, as you said, exercisebuilds into a self-care model.
When I had my recent baby,charlie, you know, after, in
postpartum, it's just you feelso weak, your stomach muscles
have really just kind of beenthrough the ringer, and so I set
myself this goal of just doing10 minutes, where I turn up each
day and I'd put on a littleworkout to help me reconnect
(14:47):
between my stomach muscles, mypelvic floor, and even if I just
wanted to lie there or I justwanted to do a stretch, I really
had to throw out this idea that10 minutes wasn't going to get
me to where I wanted to go,which is to rebuild my strength.
But I turned up every singleday and I made it very enjoyable
and progressively, because Ifound it enjoyable, I added a
(15:09):
few minutes here and there and,next thing, you knew I was, and
it does take months.
It's a really long process, butI had to rebuild my strength
and I think that was a reallyimportant thing.
One of the barriers I noticedwhile I was doing that exercise
and I really had to pushbackagainst it were the internal
thoughts I had around my bodyimage during the time I was so
(15:29):
much heavier than I normally was.
Having exercise clothes thatdidn't impact me was really
important, even having a mirror,I think these days you go to a
Pilates class and there'smirrors all around.
It's reinforcing this idea.
I think that how you look whileyou exercise is important, and
I understand there's so muchpurpose between being able to
(15:52):
see form and how you're doingsomething.
But I think if you'reidentifying that exercising in
front of a mirror is triggeringfor you, you don't have to
exercise in front of a mirror.
And what are your thoughts onthis?
Speaker 1 (16:04):
I think definitely not exercising in front of a
mirror and what are yourthoughts on this?
I think I think definitely not.
Exercising in front of a mirroris a really great way to
exercise from a place ofself-care because, like you say,
you do become kind of focusedon your body image if you can
see yourself, um, but you say interms, you know, sometimes for
form and technique there is aplace for that, but I feel like
I just don't think it's thatnecessary.
(16:25):
I think think yes, for mepersonally, scrap the mirrors
and wear exercise clothes thatyou feel comfortable in.
I mean, most of the time Iexercise in my pajamas because
that's how I feel most comfy inmy gym jams.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I mean, I love that.
I feel like my boobs would belike hitting me in the face if I
tried that.
I will give it a whirl andwe're going to see how we go.
One of my pet peeves when I'vegone to exercises classes before
is the personal trainer who'syelling at you and says
something to the extent ofeveryone has to hold a plank,
and if someone drops out of theplank we all start again and
(16:59):
there's nothing that feels moreshamey and blamey and
punishmenty about that thenthose kinds of statements, the
idea that me listening to mybody and the fact that this is
not feeling comfortable for meis going to jeopardize everyone
else's happiness, and then I'mgoing to be publicly shamed as a
result.
I think that type of trainingneeds to die, is no place and is
(17:20):
certainly nothing healthy aboutthat.
So I think who you go to to getyour exercise support from
matters so much and, as you'resaying, you have to feel
comfortable.
If something's not feeling goodfor you, you're allowed to find
someone like yourself who isgoing to tailor it, so you come
out of your workout and you feelgood.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, that's it.
It's finding a safe andcompassionate fitness space
where you can feel comfortable,where there's no judgment, no
talk of body image, food youknow, earning and burning food
and all of that stuff,especially what you just said.
That sounds horrible.
I'm sorry that you went throughthat.
That's yeah, I mean I've had afair share of awful experiences.
(18:00):
I remember one spin instructorthat was like first to vomit,
I'll buy you a bottle ofchampagne.
It's like you want people to besick and yeah, but that one,
that's awful.
Like you said, that's likepublicly shaming and the thing
with that instructor, they'regoing against the complete
opposite, because you know tofeel intrinsically motivated, as
(18:20):
you know, you need a positiveexperience and to feel good.
And going to a class like that,you're going to come out of
there and you're going to belike, oh, I'm never going back
to that class, I don't want todo that exercise again.
And then it also puts you offgoing to other fitness spaces as
well.
So it's really, I mean there's.
You know, I'm also reallypassionate about trying to
educate other personal trainersas well.
(18:42):
On, you know how to be moreinclusive, because I've diet
culture does have a lot to blame, you know, and I think a lot of
people just don't realize, andthat's what they're taught.
You know, my personal trainingqualification was terrible.
It's, you know, rife with dietculture, and they just don't
know any other way.
And I think, yeah, just beingable to get that message out
there, um, not just the trainers, but also to to people as well,
(19:04):
that you know exercise doesn'thave to be like this.
You know, there are there aresafe spaces, there are ways that
you can approach exercise froma place of self care.
You don't have to feel shamedor you don't have to hate it.
Um, and I just think there's alot of people come to me, go, oh
I, oh, I never even knew therewas another way to exercise.
I thought this was it.
I think so that it's just yeah,and I think just getting the
message out there is soimportant.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
And that feels quite liberating to me.
I had to go through a big phaseof trying to learn what
exercise I enjoyed, and for methat very much looked like
pulling back from intensity.
I had to go back to anenjoyable walk with a podcast or
a hike, something that didn'tfeel like it was just about me
trying to to look a certain way,and I guess that's the the
(19:48):
question I have.
What advice do you have forlisteners who are at that stage
going okay, but how do I evenfind joyful movements?
And, and is there a process?
Do I just sign up to a bunch ofclasses?
Do I just experiment?
Do I hope for the best?
Are there ways that I couldGoogle to find a personal
trainer who's going to be morealigned?
What tips do you have forpeople?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
The one thing that I love to do is a little activity,
which is to I call it like thecircle of joy activity, where
you write down all the exerciseor movement activities that you
enjoy now, all the ones that youthink you might enjoy and all
the ones that you used to enjoyas a child, because I think
that's really important.
And then you write them alldown and you kind of circle all
the ones.
You look at it and go, okay,I'm going to circle the ones
(20:27):
that are realistic for me toactually try.
I want to try and then chooseone thing each week to give a go
and then start doing it thatway.
I find that's a really good wayto kind of find the enjoyable
movement.
But I think what's importantabout that as well, that your
enjoyable movement may change,so you might be really enjoying
something for some time and thenyou might go off it and that's
(20:48):
okay, and you might find anotherenjoyable movement.
Because I think people think,oh, okay, I love this.
I have to do this forever now,which which isn't the case
either, because you know you'reyou're going to change, we
change, you know, things that weonce enjoyed we're not going to
, but I think and just againgetting that message out there
that you know exercise can beanything you want it to be and
(21:08):
you know, going for a walk orlistening to a podcast, having a
little dance party, you knowthat's all valid movement and I
think that really helps.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Spot on, and I think this ties into a conversation
around self-blame.
I think in the past I had atendency to do an exercise and
if I found it hard to stick tothat exercise, I blame myself.
I'd say, oh, you're beinginconsistent, you need better
willpower, instead of realizingthat I just lost the joy for
whatever it is I was trying todo, instead of blaming yourself
(21:39):
going.
The reason you can't exerciseis because you suck.
No, let's reframe this.
And that's just not what'shappening at all.
The exercise you are attemptingto push yourself to do, to
force yourself to do, is justnot suited to you.
So going through thatexperimentation phase, like
Shereen mentioned, I thinkthat's a really, really key one.
Another barrier I think that wedon't talk about enough is when
(22:00):
you're scared of people judgingyou for existing in a larger
body.
So you don't want to go into agym because you're worried that
everyone's going to go.
What are you doing here?
Or I used to find when I was ina bigger body, I found it
really I'd either do one thingI'd be really self-conscious to
go for a run because I'd worriedeveryone would just be judging
me and I'd tell myself storiesabout all the things they were
(22:22):
thinking to themselves as theysaw my body, or I would force
myself to be in public places sothat I felt pressure to keep
running, so that people wouldthink, oh, of course she has to
keep running.
It can go both ways.
So what are some things thatyou can help us when it comes to
feeling like we need to look acertain way before we're allowed
(22:44):
to start exercising in public?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
spaces.
I think that's such a reallygood point that you've made is
that you know people do feelintimidated going into a gym
environment and they've hadthose negative experiences and I
think the best thing to do ifyou can is to find a more
supportive and inclusive fitnessspace, um, but if that isn't
available to you, I mean takinga friend can be something really
(23:08):
help with, like, going there.
So you've got that kind ofsupport.
But I mean, the truth is,people in the gym I mean, as you
know, they only care aboutthemselves, right, that's it
like, yeah, they're not, butthat I mean it doesn't stop you
from feeling that way and, likeyou say, when you are, um, in a,
in a larger body, you've hadthose experiences and that that
(23:28):
weight stigma before, where theymight have tried to even weigh
you, or you know trying to pusha program on you, or you go into
the toilet and they've gotthose awful before and after
pictures and you know all thismessaging um.
But like I mean if, if you findthat, I mean taking a friend, I
think knowing that peoplearen't paying attention, but I
think you know, if that's reallysomething that's not going to
(23:50):
work for you, then doing anonline finding, an online
community might be better to getyour confidence up first.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
I really, I really appreciate that.
I always think as well withbody image.
We can sometimes think of itlike a destination, like you one
day go oh cool, I want to reacha Mecca where I suddenly feel
really great about my body and Inever have to worry.
But sadly, we live in a worldthat constantly tells us that
your worth is dependent on howyou look and therefore I think
about body images more of like ayoga practice.
(24:20):
It is just a constant practicewhere the world is going to
throw you judgments about howyou think you're meant to look
and you need to have, you needto build up the skills so that
when you get the thought thatgoes oh my goodness, I bet
they're wondering like I can'tbelieve that woman's exercising
when she looks like that youhave to be able to offer
yourself a reminder and thesefrequent reminders and go.
(24:40):
You know what.
No one's thinking that orthat's okay, I'm allowed to
exercise, my body is worthy ofrespect.
So you have these go-tostatements, almost like you're
like whoosh, whoosh, whoosh.
You can just fire back yourlike punchy one-liners.
Because you need to have thesereminders as backup, because
you're doing the practice ofbody image practice.
Yeah, definitely.
(25:02):
I love that.
That's great.
Let's talk a little bit aboutintuitive eating and non-dieting
and all that jazz.
I think there is a bit ofconfusion about what intuitive
eating is and what non-dietingis, and I don't think that while
they're similar and they tieinto each other, they are not
(25:24):
one in the same, and so I thinkthere's a misconception that
intuitive eating is just eatwhatever I want whenever I want,
and that's not the case.
Can you talk to us a little bitabout that?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the biggestmisconception about intuitive
eating is that, as you said also, that it doesn't care about
health, which isn't the case atall.
You know, intuitive eating is aself-care model.
It's about, you know, tuninginto your body, eating foods
that make you feel good, eatingfoods that you know nourish you,
(25:53):
sustain you.
But to get to that stage that'sthat kind of like eat what I
want, eat whenever I want.
I mean, at the beginning ofintuitive eating you do have to
kind of let go of all those dietrules and you've just kind of,
you know, you've kind of got tothrow yourself in.
So I think that's where it'skind of got that idea.
Because the problem is, if yougo into intuitive eating already
with a set of rules, it's thesame as a diet, right, because
you're going in there, going,okay, I can only eat when I'm
(26:14):
hungry.
I've got to stop when I'm full.
And there's so much nuancearound that I mean when you've
come out of a period of dietingor an eating disorder, as you
know, you are starving, ok, soyour hunger levels are going to
be all over the place.
It's going to take a littlewhile for your hunger signals to
, you know, regulate again andby eating consistently and
nourishing your body.
That's all going to help.
And same with your fullnesssignals.
(26:35):
We've obviously always beentaught to you know, eat
everything on our plate as wewere growing up, and also in
dining, you give yourself thesetiny little portions, right, and
you eat everything because youknow, okay, this is all I'm
going to have for the day.
And it's really about tuninginto you know what fullness
feels like for you and givingyourself enough food.
So, but I think, yeah, withintuitive eating, it is a
(26:57):
self-care approach.
It does care about health.
It's very much about eatingfoods that make you feel good
and sustain you, but it's aboutjust having no rules, rejecting
all those shoulds and you know,those don'ts and everything from
from diet culture and just umrelearning to eat in the way
that you're born with and Ithink what you've described here
(27:19):
is almost that.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I think of it like a refeeding period.
Once you start to come, you gookay, I'm allowed to eat
anything I want.
There is this refeeding periodwhere you, as you said, you are
starved, emotionally andphysically hungry and, like you
talked about with your peanutbutter experience, once you put
it back on the menu, there was aperiod of time where you went a
little bit like, oh, I can havepeanut butter, finally, I can
(27:41):
have peanut butter, finally Ican eat it all the time.
And you did.
And after a while you startedto realize, oh, I can eat peanut
butter anytime I want.
And with that realization andnot just thought, but the real
deep sinking into the acceptancethat peanut butter truly is
always allowed, it's never goingto be taken off the menu that's
when you started to find that,oh, you found your balance with
peanut butter and peanut butterlost its power over you.
(28:02):
And so I think this is I don'teven know how to describe it yet
, but in my mind I think aboutit as like a murky forest in
intuitive eating, as I said,it's the hardest bit is getting
started, because you do have totrudge through this murky period
in the beginning, where youstart to bring these foods back
in.
You reintroduce them I teachyou how to do this in my Binge
Free Academy and how do weintroduce them in a way that
(28:22):
doesn't make us feel triggeredto go on a diet again, because
that is one of the challenges aswell.
You go through recovery.
Some people gain weight, yougain weight, you go almost now I
have to go back to those oldcoping strategies and you ditch
intuitive eating because youdon't have the right structure
around it.
But I guess what you're sayingwas I want everyone to know this
is there is a murky period andyou do come out of the other end
of it and you have that calmand the relaxed, responsive food
(28:46):
and that's when you can startto go okay.
Well, now I can incorporate abit more of the I'm going to
wait till I feel hungry conceptinto it because you can, whereas
before it started to sometimesit can feel like a diet rule
where you're going I have towait until I'm hungry before I'm
eat, and then you start to beable to lean into the idea of
I'm allowed to wait until I feelhungry to eat a little bit more
as you progress and as yourecover more, it can feel like
(29:10):
when you quit dieting you canlose yourself a little bit.
I know I felt that way.
I felt as though my identitywas very much dieting.
I was the diet guru in my groupat high school.
I was obsessed with losingweight.
It was my identity, and whenyou get to this point where you
go I don't want to be thisperson anymore you can feel
quite lost.
(29:30):
Can you relate to this and howdo you find yourself again at
this point?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Oh, definitely.
I think the thing, as youexplained so well, dieting, you
know it does serve this purpose,this identity, for us, but what
it actually does is, you know,distracts us, right.
So it takes us away frompursuing our true goals and the
things that we're reallypassionate about, because we're
so focused and hyper focused ondieting that we just don't have
(29:57):
the brain space for anythingelse.
And we've also been taught thatour whole self-worth is around
dialing and, you know, losingweight and our body image.
So we feel like, you know, okay, that is a valid identity.
And when you stop dialing, youfind, like you say, you find
yourself a little bit lost,because you know that dialing
was that control as well, it was, you know, having something to
focus on.
(30:18):
And then suddenly you're like,okay, you know, what do I do now
and I say in terms of emotionsas well.
A lot of people really strugglewith that because they may have
used dieting as a copingmechanism as well.
So it's really working on thatemotional well-being, but I
think, also just looking at itas like, wow, you know, I now
have the brain space, I now have, you know, I can be present, I
can pursue my dreams and my andone of the things I like to do
(30:41):
is like writing a list of allthose things that dining might
have held you back from if thatwas, you know, not applying for
that job or not going to havinga swim at the beach, not getting
that haircut, not going awaywith your friends for the
weekend because you have to be acertain weight.
Writing down all those thingsand slowly starting to do all
those things that dining heldyou back from and ticking that
(31:03):
off slowly, I think that's oneof the best ways to start living
again and finding things thatyou enjoy.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I love it, a non-diet bucket list.
I think that is really cool tomake you feel like yourself and
find your spark again.
Shireen, I've loved chatting toyou, but I want to hear about
you have a book called Be you,be Free.
Can you tell us about it?
Because if you like thisconversation then I bet you're
going to like this book.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
So Be you, be Free is more than just a book.
It is a workbook and guide allin one that will help you break
free from dialing and find yourtrue identity and purpose
outside darling as well.
It will help you, you know,find food freedom, build a
positive body image and a realfun relationship with exercise,
(31:48):
but mostly it will help youbecome the person that you were
meant to be before diet culturetold you who you had to be oh, I
love this so much, and wherecan people get the book?
you can find it through myinstagram, which is shireen
underscore bub3.
There's a link on there andthere's also lots of helpful
content around exercise and bodyimage and things like that that
(32:08):
you might find too.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
If you don't follow Shireen already, I am going to
leave a link in the show notesso you can go follow her.
I love following you, shireen.
I feel like you give such goodtips.
I love your content.
Please do go follow along and,shireen, thank you so much for
today's conversation and allyour tips.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Thank you so much for having me.
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