Ever wondered about the impact of social media on our body image and its role in fuelling eating disorders?
In this episode, we're joined by Gemma Sharp, Associate Professor and leader of Body Image & Eating Disorders Research at Monash University in Melbourne. Gemma shares crucial insights into sub-threshold disordered eating and prevention efforts, essential for gaining a deeper understanding of mental health. We'll explore how these issues have intensified during the COVID-19 pandemic and discuss the promising potential of AI in transforming treatment.
Gemma, a registered clinical psychologist, is widely recognised for her contributions to national and state eating disorder strategies and clinical guidelines for cosmetic procedures. Her research spans across Australia, Japan, and the UK, focusing on body image, eating disorders, and innovative therapeutic interventions such as digital technologies and AI, which we'll delve into.
With numerous accolades, including recognition as one of ABC Radio National's Top 5 Under 40 Scientists and a TED talk speaker, Gemma brings a wealth of expertise to our discussion on dismantling beauty standards and recognizing signs of disordered eating.
We're thrilled to have Dr. Gemma Sharp here to explore these important topics with us.
Gemma and her team at Monash University are leading a brand new international Consortium for Research in Eating Disorders (CoRe-ED), which aims to bring together all voices to improve eating disorder research and care globally. See more details here. You can join the consortium online launch on Wednesday 25th September 2024 (register here) where Gemma and her team will be inviting people around the world to join the consortium. There are no membership fees to join. Gemma's team are committed to keeping the consortium accessible to everyone who is keen to be involved.
Want to feel more in control around food? Check out my Stop Struggling With Food Guide, currently on sale for 40% off.
You’ll also find 50 of my favourite recipes to get you inspired!
Get my Free 5 Day Course to help you stop binge and emotional eating.
Looking for more support to feel in control around food? I'd love to support you in my Binge Free Academy.
Come follow me on the gram at @nude_nutritionist (no nude pics, sorry).
Want to share some feedback or have an idea for an episode, I'd LOVE to hear from you - hit me up at hello@lyndicohen.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
you've done some very interesting research during
COVID-19 times eating disorderrates and body image concerns.
Can you talk to me about that?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
so there was just a lot going on.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
That was unfortunately a bit of a perfect
storm kids don't want to cometo school anymore, and it's
multiple teachers who reportedthis.
You're looking into whether ornot AI can assist people with
eating disorder treatments?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
and the results have been really excellent so far,
which has been great.
I will always ask my clients,patients, people with eating
disorders what is it that youlike to do before you had an
eating disorder?
That part of you is still there.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Hi everyone and welcome to no Wellness Wankery.
I'm dietitian and nutritionist,Lindy Cohen, and this is a
place where we getscience-backed information so
you actually know how to lookafter your lovely, lovely body.
And my guest today.
Well, it's a little bit trickyto sum up just everything that
she has done in her very shortcareer, because she has achieved
so much.
(01:06):
Gemma Sharp is an associateprofessor of research and leads
body image and eating disorderresearch at Monash University in
Melbourne, which is inAustralia.
If you don't know, she hasdegrees in molecular biology,
microbiology, oncology, Japaneseand psychology, culminating in
a PhD in clinical psychology.
That is a mouthful and it isvery impressive.
Her research spans acrossmultiple countries Australia,
(01:26):
Japan, the UK and she's verymuch focused on body image, on
eating disorders and, I guess,innovative therapies and
interventions, things likedigital technology, like AI, and
that's something we're going totalk about in today's podcast.
She's also, in case you neededmore things, she is also a
registered clinical psychologistwho's been recognized for her
(01:47):
significant contributions tonational and state eating
disorder strategies and clinicalguidelines for cosmetic
procedures.
She's won countless awards somany I found it really hard to
count them all.
She's been named one of ABCRadio's national top five under
40 scientists and was invited todeliver a TED Talk, so I'm very
excited to have AssociateProfessor Gemma Sharp here to
(02:08):
discuss breaking down beautystandards and identifying
disordered eating in the worldof AI.
Associate Professor Gemma Sharp, I'm very, very, very happy to
have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I'm delighted and I really want to hear from the
get-go what got you interestedin body image and eating
disorder research.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
My very first foray into research was actually
cancer research.
I was particularly speakingwith a lot of breast cancer
patients and they were talkingto me about body image concerns
after having their breastsremoved and things like that
body image concerns after havingtheir breasts removed and
things like that and so mycancer interest was still there.
But the body image research wasjust so appealing to me so I
(02:52):
kind of came on a bit of atangent, I suppose.
And then the eating disorderelement.
I was very lucky to be chosento do one of my clinical
placements in an eating disorderclinic and I had this wonderful
mentor and she was just superinspiring and she said that
obviously eating disordersneeded a lot more attention and
advocacy.
As your listeners willunderstand and believe me, I
(03:15):
love rooting for an underdog andI was like this is my cause, so
I suppose maybe it's not whatpeople think it would be, but
yeah, so sort of on a tangentand rooting for an underdog,
really.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
No, and I do love it.
I appreciate you rooting forall the people with eating
disorders, with disorderedeating and one of those things
where disordered eating I feellike it's this huge number of
people who we're statisticallynot really capturing right, like
we have an idea of those whoare diagnosable, but then
there's this whole group ofpeople who are like listen, we
know you're borderline or you'vegot some behaviors that we
don't quite consider healthy andI certainly talk to people all
(03:51):
the time and I think that is avery much an underestimated
group and I think some of yourresearch touches on that.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Absolutely so.
As you said, we were sort ofquite clear on those diagnostic
criteria, so it's a little biteasier to categorize people, but
people will often go in and outof diagnostic criteria as well
as between eating disorderdiagnosis and then sub-threshold
disordered eating, and I meanit really is the gateway to
(04:20):
eating disorders, isn't it?
So I think there's so much morewe need to do in that
prevention space arounddisordered eating, and
unfortunately we're seeing itwith really young people as well
.
I'm seeing lots of things aboutchildren not eating their
lunches at school or beinglunchbox shamed, and so it can
start really early from sourcesthat are supposedly meant to
(04:41):
protect our young people, and Iand I think people probably
everyone, it would be with rareexception would have experienced
some disordered eating at somestage in their life.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
And do?
Speaking about young people, alot of your research has focused
on the impact of social mediaand body image.
I assume most of our listenersare going to be with the
understanding that if you'reusing social media, what we see
is not often correct andfollowing people who share
certain images are going to makeus feel a certain way.
What did you learn from yourmany pieces of research that you
(05:16):
did on this topic?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Thank you for saying many pieces as well.
I appreciate that I'm a bit ofa publication junkie if I can be
, I like to get the good wordout there as much as possible.
So I think I suppose somereally fascinating research that
I've been a part of or haveread just showed that if we
actually showed people, if theimages had been edited so we had
(05:41):
like labels like you might findon cigarette packets, for
example, it actually didn'tchange their dissatisfaction
with their bodies.
So I think there's an awarenessthat we all have nowadays that
everything is edited,everything's quite unrealistic,
but it doesn't stop us fromwanting that ideal, that
wonderful lifestyle that we'reseeing, and I think it shows how
(06:04):
aspirational humans are.
I think that they want the bestfor themselves, and what's
wrong with that?
But I think it's really hard toget around sometimes because I
think if those warning labelshad have been effective, we
would all be using them, butsadly not.
I think it's just.
I think potentially what weneed to be doing more of is just
(06:25):
a lot more diversity ofrepresentations, and I love
those influencers who show usbehind the scenes and or sort of
, I suppose, have a bit of ajoke with some of the stylized
photos.
I think people really do lovethat and that does tend to make
people feel a bit better.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
And I think that's the misconception those
influencers who are trying toappear perfect have is that
people will like them more ifthey turn up as their shiny
selves or their filtered selves.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Exactly, there's research to show that we
actually like leaders who have abit of imperfection.
They seem a bit more human.
Surely that's why my team loveme here at Monash.
So, yes, there is research toback that up, that having some
imperfections is actually verylikeable.
Tell your influencers.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
that's what we like Exactly.
You've done some veryinteresting research during
COVID-19 times and eatingdisorder rates and body image
concerns.
Can you talk?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
to me about that, absolutely.
So what an interesting time ofeveryone's life, hey, getting to
live through a global pandemicand tick that off the bucket
list.
Hopefully we don't have to dothat again.
Yes, I think what we saw wasquite a lot of things, so a lot
of impacts.
We were spending a lot moretime on screens, like everyone
(07:47):
was doing online study, onlineschooling, online work, online
socializing so we were lookingat images of ourselves a lot
more and I'm not sure if theterm has persisted, but we did
sort of talk about Zoomdysmorphia there for a while and
people were actually gettingmore facial cosmetic procedures
done because they didn't likewhat they were seeing in the
(08:07):
Zoom camera and I think, interms more broadly so, just not
being able to go to school, notbeing able to do all the things
we enjoyed, the control that wehave in our lives was taken away
from us very quickly, and thatwas a huge trigger for a lot of
people's eating disorders.
So either they were alreadyexperiencing one and it
(08:28):
exacerbated or it triggered offnew ones, unfortunately for
people at risk.
So there was just a lot goingon that was unfortunately a bit
of a perfect storm for a bodyimage concerns and eating
disorders, sadly.
So I think probably we couldhave predicted it, but obviously
none of us could predict thepandemic.
So none of us could predict thepandemic, so none of us thought
it would all come at once.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, and I think it affected people in so many ways.
I've been speaking to someteachers recently who are
talking about how kids don'twant to come to school anymore,
and it's multiple teacherswho've reported this.
So there are long lastingimpacts as well that we're
feeling from, I guess, covid-19.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, I mean we're going to be doing these
longitudinal studies.
I think the people who areyoung people in COVID-19 are
probably going to be the moststudied people ever moving
forward, so I hope they enjoyparticipating in research,
including ours.
But yes, I think it has shapedtheir social development, and I
think so.
We obviously had students whohad only done, for example,
(09:29):
online university and are nowcoming to us for their, like,
phd and higher level studies andthey've never actually spent a
day in a lab before and I'm like, oh well, welcome.
So it is pretty curious.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
It is curious.
Can you talk to me about someother curious work you're doing
at the moment around AI?
Oh, yes, I think it's sointeresting what's unfolding.
What are you doing here?
And I guess what I can see isthat you're looking into whether
or not AI can assist peoplewith eating disorder treatments.
Can it be something that canactually be helpful and useful?
Because what we know witheating disorder support is it
(10:08):
requires a large amount of timefor us to get recovery, requires
multiple interventions,reminders.
So can you talk to me about KIT, the Positive Body Image
Chatbot?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yeah, Well, that's.
I mean we actually have a wholefamily of them now, Lindy, so
I'll introduce them all quicklylike our chatbot family, because
they all have like avatars thatare similar, so we call them
our family.
You know, people who don't haveenough friends, like myself,
will obviously adopt these kindsof tools.
So Kit is now known as Jem andJem lives on Monash's website.
(10:44):
If anyone can access it, feelfree to contact me if you can't
find it.
But Gem started out during theCOVID-19 pandemic.
The idea was formulatedbeforehand but the pandemic
accelerated its development andwe really just wanted a tool
that could help.
It was Butterfly Foundation'shelpline at the time because it
was so oversubscribed, everyoneneeding help at once.
(11:07):
So Kit slash Gem was there tohelp shoulder some of that load,
give those in-the-moment copingskills.
We actually saw quite a veryhigh usage like post-dinner,
which shows when people wereexperiencing distress and had
maybe a bit of time on theirhands.
So our micro skills were veryhelpful there.
So that was GEM, and GEM isactually going to be launched in
(11:29):
North America later this year.
So we're doing a sort of NorthAmerican GEM right now, which is
super exciting and going tohelp them with their helpline
load.
And then we also have EDSE,which stands for Eating Disorder
Electronic Single SessionIntervention.
That's why we call it EDSE wedon't say that name all the time
and EDSE is currently in trialsaround Australia for the many
(11:53):
people on wait lists for eatingdisorder treatment.
So GEM was kind of based in thecommunity, whereas EDSE is very
much that first point ofcontact in treatment and the
results have been reallyexcellent so far, which has been
great.
So people are like, oh great, Iget this free chatbot session
while I'm waiting, because weknow if we leave people on wait
(12:14):
lists, unfortunately theirsymptoms get worse.
I mean, what a surprise.
But I think people are quiteappreciating that they can get
that early intervention andwe've seen that they do better
in treatment when they do get tostart.
But I should say still in trial.
We're looking forward topublishing those results and
hopefully EDSE will be more of amainstream tool in Australia in
(12:35):
2025.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I think this is such interesting research.
Can I ask you, with Jem, is ita kind of chatbot where you'd
log in, I chat to you, I get thesupport that I needed.
I log off.
If I re-log in, would Gemremember me so?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I think we did talk a lot about that.
So, edse, you can, because it'skind of like your treatment,
whereas Gem, I suppose, is alittle bit more like the bank
chatbot and the Optus chatbot.
That it won't, but I supposeit's a feature we can look into.
(13:12):
It's just we wanted thatanonymous usage with Gem and
that's why we didn't have thememory feature.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Absolutely.
Now, if anyone isn't up to datewith this whole kind of AI
development, there is I don'teven know what it's called, but
a program where people have gotan AI that they're forming a
relationship with and somepeople come and they have very
intimate relationships with thischatbot who essentially would
(13:39):
remember hey listen, your motherpassed away.
How have you been feeling andcan handle quite complex things.
In fact, people can attach ahuge amount of, they get a large
amount of attachments to thisbot and I guess I was always
thinking about how would it beif you had a long-term
relationship with a chatbot andsomeone who would remember hey
listen, I know that last weekyou found a particularly
(14:01):
triggering with this and thishow have you been finding it?
Kind of like how you'd havethat clinician one-on-one
support, and I guess this iskind of like you are in the
beginning stages of looking athow this could be applied.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
We're actually building that right now.
So you're right on the money.
I suppose what they've beenable to do with those ones that
are available now they're kindof generally trained, so we know
what they're giving is good forgeneral advice, but we can't
say that there's a strong sortof evidence base from a clinical
(14:33):
perspective for them.
So I'm really glad that peopleare using them because they're
wonderful tools, but I think interms of actually getting them
into our health services andhaving them recognised as
clinical tools, they need to gothrough a certain pathway that
we're going through.
But that doesn't mean thatother people won't find these
freely accessible tools to beuseful.
(14:55):
I think we just.
I suppose it's a really trickytime in AI.
So I think the health servicesare a bit behind technology.
What a surprise.
So at the moment healthservices are using AI, but it's
more like for administrativetasks, it's less about clinical
service provision.
So we're moving ahead in termsof our clinical service
(15:17):
provision, but step by stepreally.
But we love the idea of peoplebeing able to come back and chat
with, like a sort of a friend,which we've called Gem AI.
I guess all how narcissisticit's all my name, but we'll
change the name.
Obviously I like Gem.
I suppose something else we'vebeen doing is just targeted
(15:37):
intervention, so your phoneknows when you might be feeling
down or you might be about toengage in an eating disorder
behaviour.
So that's another part thatwe've been working on too, that
predictive power of people'sphones.
So it's not just you choosingto chat, it's that your phone
knows when you might need tochat as well.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
And this is incredibly interesting and
exciting, I think, because whenyou think about eating disorders
, we know this is a verysecretive kind of thing we tend
to hide, especially in youngerpeople.
Sometimes you might not feelwilling to speak out loud to a
clinician.
We have COVID-19 babies comingthrough who perhaps have social
skills that need a little bit ofextra support, but it means
(16:20):
that they are perhaps morecomfortable with sending a
message to someone and typingand texting to someone.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Who makes phone calls nowadays.
I mean, I feel like I'm an oldmillennial and I make phone
calls and I'm slow at texting.
I don't know what I am.
Yes, I agree, I think.
I mean, I think we need tocater for all different types of
communication and if people arehappier with texting, well you
(16:49):
know, that's why we have thatform of communication and we can
absolutely leverage it.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
What are you most excited for in the future of
eating disorder research?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Oh God, that's what a big question.
Thank you.
I mean gosh, so many things.
I mean.
I think something our groupdoes well that I absolutely love
is that we're coming at it fromall angles.
So that genetics, biologicalside so you know we have our
work that we do at the lab benchobviously this technology side
(17:21):
as well.
We're looking at it from apsychology and social
perspective, just as we weretalking before impacts of social
media, using that as a channelfor good.
So I think what I'm mostinterested in is the
intersection of all of thosecoming together to really tackle
eating disorders, becauseeating disorders are so
multifaceted, so you need thatmultifaceted solution.
(17:42):
So I'm just glad we are finallyexploring all the avenues we
need to instead of, I suppose,just psychological support.
Obviously, that's veryimportant, but I feel there's
lots of ways we can help people.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Gee, I find that really exciting.
And what about?
The thing that you find as aresearcher is most challenging
still?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Sorry for my laughter .
Everything Gosh.
I wow Sometimes me personally,I think because I'm a younger
woman.
I know I sound old to yourlisteners Sorry, listeners, I
swear.
In terms of research I'm notsuper old and I think sometimes
(18:26):
I might not get taken asseriously as some of my more
senior colleagues who might beanother gender.
So that think sometimes I mightnot get taken as seriously as
some of my more seniorcolleagues who might be another
gender.
So that's sometimes a bit of achallenge.
But obviously I think we'remaking good progress there and I
think sometimes eating disorderresearch does not receive the
funding it deserves,particularly given the
prevalence of it and the scopeof the issue that it impacts
(18:48):
people's lives so dramaticallyand their loved ones.
So sometimes it can be hard tofund the research that you want
to do.
But I wouldn't change my jobfor anything.
I have so much fun.
I get to think of new ideas allthe time and explore most of
them, and we get to launch coolthings and get to chat on
(19:09):
podcasts.
So I think my job is afantastic one and I don't have
much cause to complain at all.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yes, and I'm very grateful to have a young female
like yourself in the work thatyou do.
I think it's very, veryimportant.
I always found that one of thechallenges in research and
perhaps this is me from my mediaperspective is how the research
can often get confused and youget these clickbaity headlines.
(19:38):
So by the time it actuallyreaches the masses if it reaches
the masses at all it can getbutchered and the authenticity
or the meaning or the validityof it is totally missed, and
what we end up with is just aclickbait headline and nothing
else.
So that's something that Iwould love to see shifted as
well.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Absolutely yeah, and I think, well, you're doing a
fantastic job by, I suppose,allowing the researchers to tell
their own stories, and I thinkI've generally had very good
experiences with the mediabecause I think I've I've been
allowed to have my own quotes,my own recordings, et cetera in
my own voice and I think, aswell as lived experience, folks
(20:12):
who are part of our research too.
They're almost always part ofour stories, they're certainly
part of our research, because Ithink that really brings
research to life.
It takes it away from thosestatistical numbers or that one
percentage or whatever it justit needs to be brought to life,
as you said, and not, I suppose,iterated such that it no longer
(20:36):
resembles what it started outas.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Indeed.
Can I finish with one lastquestion, of course, for the
audience listening, what issomething that they can do on
social media based on yourlearnings, your research that
could help to improve their bodyimage?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Cat videos.
No, that's what I do.
That's the small silly cat onTwitter, slash X.
I'm a huge fan of that one.
I think it is.
I think it is.
It is finding what interestsyou and finding what you find
meaning in on social media,because I think there's so much
(21:15):
content out there and if we, Isuppose, keep clicking on the
same kinds of stories, that'swhat we get fed back because of
the way social media algorithmstend to work.
So I would always set anintention when I go on social
media that I'm going to look atsomething meaningful.
Maybe it's a quote, maybe it'sa beautiful picture, maybe it's
(21:35):
something to do with gardening.
I just think there are justthere's so much content there
that we're not accessing.
That would actually make usfeel better about ourselves in
general not just our bodies, butour minds and souls as well.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Spot on, I mean.
I think sometimes, when you'regoing through an eating disorder
, it can occupy your entireheadspace and it doesn't leave
much room for hobbies and thingsthat make you feel something
greater.
And I think finding what it isthat you even like you know,
yeah, just ask that question.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Like I will always ask my clients, patients, people
with eating disorders what isit that you like to do before
you had an eating disorder?
They'll say, I really likehorses or I like roller skating
or I like painting.
Like there's always somethingand I think that part of you is
still there, maybe just dormant,but it's still there.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
And I think living that full life, or at least
leaning into your interests more, can help to give more of your
headspace to those things thatmake your life bigger, as you're
saying.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Absolutely yeah, even if it's some Netflix series I
mean, isn't everyone watchingbaby reindeer at the moment?
Or if it's cat videos.
Whatever you know, you're fine.
I know.
You See I'm showing someinsights into my own viewing
habits here.
Stalkers and cats Anyway,stalker cat, I should make a
show about that.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Thank you so much for your time on the podcast and
please, if you do have moreresearch, which no doubt you
will have very shortly we'd loveto hear an update.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
you've done some very interesting research during
COVID-19 times eating disorderrates and body image concerns.
Can you talk to me about that?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
so there was just a lot going on.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
That was unfortunately a bit of a perfect
storm kids don't want to cometo school anymore, and it's
multiple teachers who reportedthis.
You're looking into whether ornot AI can assist people with
eating disorder treatments?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
and the results have been really excellent so far,
which has been great.
I will always ask my clients,patients, people with eating
disorders what is it that youlike to do before you had an
eating disorder?
That part of you is still there.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Hi everyone and welcome to no Wellness Wankery.
I'm dietitian and nutritionist,Lindy Cohen, and this is a
place where we getscience-backed information so
you actually know how to lookafter your lovely, lovely body.
And my guest today.
Well, it's a little bit trickyto sum up just everything that
she has done in her very shortcareer, because she has achieved
so much.
(01:06):
Gemma Sharp is an associateprofessor of research and leads
body image and eating disorderresearch at Monash University in
Melbourne, which is inAustralia.
If you don't know, she hasdegrees in molecular biology,
microbiology, oncology, Japaneseand psychology, culminating in
a PhD in clinical psychology.
That is a mouthful and it isvery impressive.
Her research spans acrossmultiple countries Australia,
(01:26):
Japan, the UK and she's verymuch focused on body image, on
eating disorders and, I guess,innovative therapies and
interventions, things likedigital technology, like AI, and
that's something we're going totalk about in today's podcast.
She's also, in case you neededmore things, she is also a
registered clinical psychologistwho's been recognized for her
(01:47):
significant contributions tonational and state eating
disorder strategies and clinicalguidelines for cosmetic
procedures.
She's won countless awards somany I found it really hard to
count them all.
She's been named one of ABCRadio's national top five under
40 scientists and was invited todeliver a TED Talk, so I'm very
excited to have AssociateProfessor Gemma Sharp here to
(02:08):
discuss breaking down beautystandards and identifying
disordered eating in the worldof AI.
Associate Professor Gemma Sharp, I'm very, very, very happy to
have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I'm delighted and I really want to hear from the
get-go what got you interestedin body image and eating
disorder research.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
My very first foray into research was actually
cancer research.
I was particularly speakingwith a lot of breast cancer
patients and they were talkingto me about body image concerns
after having their breastsremoved and things like that
body image concerns after havingtheir breasts removed and
things like that and so mycancer interest was still there.
But the body image research wasjust so appealing to me so I
(02:52):
kind of came on a bit of atangent, I suppose.
And then the eating disorderelement.
I was very lucky to be chosento do one of my clinical
placements in an eating disorderclinic and I had this wonderful
mentor and she was just superinspiring and she said that
obviously eating disordersneeded a lot more attention and
advocacy.
As your listeners willunderstand and believe me, I
(03:15):
love rooting for an underdog andI was like this is my cause, so
I suppose maybe it's not whatpeople think it would be, but
yeah, so sort of on a tangentand rooting for an underdog,
really.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
No, and I do love it.
I appreciate you rooting forall the people with eating
disorders, with disorderedeating and one of those things
where disordered eating I feellike it's this huge number of
people who we're statisticallynot really capturing right, like
we have an idea of those whoare diagnosable, but then
there's this whole group ofpeople who are like listen, we
know you're borderline or you'vegot some behaviors that we
don't quite consider healthy andI certainly talk to people all
(03:51):
the time and I think that is avery much an underestimated
group and I think some of yourresearch touches on that.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Absolutely so.
As you said, we were sort ofquite clear on those diagnostic
criteria, so it's a little biteasier to categorize people, but
people will often go in and outof diagnostic criteria as well
as between eating disorderdiagnosis and then sub-threshold
disordered eating, and I meanit really is the gateway to
(04:20):
eating disorders, isn't it?
So I think there's so much morewe need to do in that
prevention space arounddisordered eating, and
unfortunately we're seeing itwith really young people as well
.
I'm seeing lots of things aboutchildren not eating their
lunches at school or beinglunchbox shamed, and so it can
start really early from sourcesthat are supposedly meant to
(04:41):
protect our young people, and Iand I think people probably
everyone, it would be with rareexception would have experienced
some disordered eating at somestage in their life.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
And do?
Speaking about young people, alot of your research has focused
on the impact of social mediaand body image.
I assume most of our listenersare going to be with the
understanding that if you'reusing social media, what we see
is not often correct andfollowing people who share
certain images are going to makeus feel a certain way.
What did you learn from yourmany pieces of research that you
(05:16):
did on this topic?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Thank you for saying many pieces as well.
I appreciate that I'm a bit ofa publication junkie if I can be
, I like to get the good wordout there as much as possible.
So I think I suppose somereally fascinating research that
I've been a part of or haveread just showed that if we
actually showed people, if theimages had been edited so we had
(05:41):
like labels like you might findon cigarette packets, for
example, it actually didn'tchange their dissatisfaction
with their bodies.
So I think there's an awarenessthat we all have nowadays that
everything is edited,everything's quite unrealistic,
but it doesn't stop us fromwanting that ideal, that
wonderful lifestyle that we'reseeing, and I think it shows how
(06:04):
aspirational humans are.
I think that they want the bestfor themselves, and what's
wrong with that?
But I think it's really hard toget around sometimes because I
think if those warning labelshad have been effective, we
would all be using them, butsadly not.
I think it's just.
I think potentially what weneed to be doing more of is just
(06:25):
a lot more diversity ofrepresentations, and I love
those influencers who show usbehind the scenes and or sort of
, I suppose, have a bit of ajoke with some of the stylized
photos.
I think people really do lovethat and that does tend to make
people feel a bit better.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
And I think that's the misconception those
influencers who are trying toappear perfect have is that
people will like them more ifthey turn up as their shiny
selves or their filtered selves.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Exactly, there's research to show that we
actually like leaders who have abit of imperfection.
They seem a bit more human.
Surely that's why my team loveme here at Monash.
So, yes, there is research toback that up, that having some
imperfections is actually verylikeable.
Tell your influencers.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
that's what we like Exactly.
You've done some veryinteresting research during
COVID-19 times and eatingdisorder rates and body image
concerns.
Can you talk?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
to me about that, absolutely.
So what an interesting time ofeveryone's life, hey, getting to
live through a global pandemicand tick that off the bucket
list.
Hopefully we don't have to dothat again.
Yes, I think what we saw wasquite a lot of things, so a lot
of impacts.
We were spending a lot moretime on screens, like everyone
(07:47):
was doing online study, onlineschooling, online work, online
socializing so we were lookingat images of ourselves a lot
more and I'm not sure if theterm has persisted, but we did
sort of talk about Zoomdysmorphia there for a while and
people were actually gettingmore facial cosmetic procedures
done because they didn't likewhat they were seeing in the
(08:07):
Zoom camera and I think, interms more broadly so, just not
being able to go to school, notbeing able to do all the things
we enjoyed, the control that wehave in our lives was taken away
from us very quickly, and thatwas a huge trigger for a lot of
people's eating disorders.
So either they were alreadyexperiencing one and it
(08:28):
exacerbated or it triggered offnew ones, unfortunately for
people at risk.
So there was just a lot goingon that was unfortunately a bit
of a perfect storm for a bodyimage concerns and eating
disorders, sadly.
So I think probably we couldhave predicted it, but obviously
none of us could predict thepandemic.
So none of us could predict thepandemic, so none of us thought
it would all come at once.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, and I think it affected people in so many ways.
I've been speaking to someteachers recently who are
talking about how kids don'twant to come to school anymore,
and it's multiple teacherswho've reported this.
So there are long lastingimpacts as well that we're
feeling from, I guess, covid-19.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, I mean we're going to be doing these
longitudinal studies.
I think the people who areyoung people in COVID-19 are
probably going to be the moststudied people ever moving
forward, so I hope they enjoyparticipating in research,
including ours.
But yes, I think it has shapedtheir social development, and I
think so.
We obviously had students whohad only done, for example,
(09:29):
online university and are nowcoming to us for their, like,
phd and higher level studies andthey've never actually spent a
day in a lab before and I'm like, oh well, welcome.
So it is pretty curious.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
It is curious.
Can you talk to me about someother curious work you're doing
at the moment around AI?
Oh, yes, I think it's sointeresting what's unfolding.
What are you doing here?
And I guess what I can see isthat you're looking into whether
or not AI can assist peoplewith eating disorder treatments.
Can it be something that canactually be helpful and useful?
Because what we know witheating disorder support is it
(10:08):
requires a large amount of timefor us to get recovery, requires
multiple interventions,reminders.
So can you talk to me about KIT, the Positive Body Image
Chatbot?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yeah, Well, that's.
I mean we actually have a wholefamily of them now, Lindy, so
I'll introduce them all quicklylike our chatbot family, because
they all have like avatars thatare similar, so we call them
our family.
You know, people who don't haveenough friends, like myself,
will obviously adopt these kindsof tools.
So Kit is now known as Jem andJem lives on Monash's website.
(10:44):
If anyone can access it, feelfree to contact me if you can't
find it.
But Gem started out during theCOVID-19 pandemic.
The idea was formulatedbeforehand but the pandemic
accelerated its development andwe really just wanted a tool
that could help.
It was Butterfly Foundation'shelpline at the time because it
was so oversubscribed, everyoneneeding help at once.
(11:07):
So Kit slash Gem was there tohelp shoulder some of that load,
give those in-the-moment copingskills.
We actually saw quite a veryhigh usage like post-dinner,
which shows when people wereexperiencing distress and had
maybe a bit of time on theirhands.
So our micro skills were veryhelpful there.
So that was GEM, and GEM isactually going to be launched in
(11:29):
North America later this year.
So we're doing a sort of NorthAmerican GEM right now, which is
super exciting and going tohelp them with their helpline
load.
And then we also have EDSE,which stands for Eating Disorder
Electronic Single SessionIntervention.
That's why we call it EDSE wedon't say that name all the time
and EDSE is currently in trialsaround Australia for the many
(11:53):
people on wait lists for eatingdisorder treatment.
So GEM was kind of based in thecommunity, whereas EDSE is very
much that first point ofcontact in treatment and the
results have been reallyexcellent so far, which has been
great.
So people are like, oh great, Iget this free chatbot session
while I'm waiting, because weknow if we leave people on wait
(12:14):
lists, unfortunately theirsymptoms get worse.
I mean, what a surprise.
But I think people are quiteappreciating that they can get
that early intervention andwe've seen that they do better
in treatment when they do get tostart.
But I should say still in trial.
We're looking forward topublishing those results and
hopefully EDSE will be more of amainstream tool in Australia in
(12:35):
2025.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I think this is such interesting research.
Can I ask you, with Jem, is ita kind of chatbot where you'd
log in, I chat to you, I get thesupport that I needed.
I log off.
If I re-log in, would Gemremember me so?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I think we did talk a lot about that.
So, edse, you can, because it'skind of like your treatment,
whereas Gem, I suppose, is alittle bit more like the bank
chatbot and the Optus chatbot.
That it won't, but I supposeit's a feature we can look into.
(13:12):
It's just we wanted thatanonymous usage with Gem and
that's why we didn't have thememory feature.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Absolutely.
Now, if anyone isn't up to datewith this whole kind of AI
development, there is I don'teven know what it's called, but
a program where people have gotan AI that they're forming a
relationship with and somepeople come and they have very
intimate relationships with thischatbot who essentially would
(13:39):
remember hey listen, your motherpassed away.
How have you been feeling andcan handle quite complex things.
In fact, people can attach ahuge amount of, they get a large
amount of attachments to thisbot and I guess I was always
thinking about how would it beif you had a long-term
relationship with a chatbot andsomeone who would remember hey
listen, I know that last weekyou found a particularly
(14:01):
triggering with this and thishow have you been finding it?
Kind of like how you'd havethat clinician one-on-one
support, and I guess this iskind of like you are in the
beginning stages of looking athow this could be applied.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
We're actually building that right now.
So you're right on the money.
I suppose what they've beenable to do with those ones that
are available now they're kindof generally trained, so we know
what they're giving is good forgeneral advice, but we can't
say that there's a strong sortof evidence base from a clinical
(14:33):
perspective for them.
So I'm really glad that peopleare using them because they're
wonderful tools, but I think interms of actually getting them
into our health services andhaving them recognised as
clinical tools, they need to gothrough a certain pathway that
we're going through.
But that doesn't mean thatother people won't find these
freely accessible tools to beuseful.
(14:55):
I think we just.
I suppose it's a really trickytime in AI.
So I think the health servicesare a bit behind technology.
What a surprise.
So at the moment healthservices are using AI, but it's
more like for administrativetasks, it's less about clinical
service provision.
So we're moving ahead in termsof our clinical service
(15:17):
provision, but step by stepreally.
But we love the idea of peoplebeing able to come back and chat
with, like a sort of a friend,which we've called Gem AI.
I guess all how narcissisticit's all my name, but we'll
change the name.
Obviously I like Gem.
I suppose something else we'vebeen doing is just targeted
(15:37):
intervention, so your phoneknows when you might be feeling
down or you might be about toengage in an eating disorder
behaviour.
So that's another part thatwe've been working on too, that
predictive power of people'sphones.
So it's not just you choosingto chat, it's that your phone
knows when you might need tochat as well.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
And this is incredibly interesting and
exciting, I think, because whenyou think about eating disorders
, we know this is a verysecretive kind of thing we tend
to hide, especially in youngerpeople.
Sometimes you might not feelwilling to speak out loud to a
clinician.
We have COVID-19 babies comingthrough who perhaps have social
skills that need a little bit ofextra support, but it means
(16:20):
that they are perhaps morecomfortable with sending a
message to someone and typingand texting to someone.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Who makes phone calls nowadays.
I mean, I feel like I'm an oldmillennial and I make phone
calls and I'm slow at texting.
I don't know what I am.
Yes, I agree, I think.
I mean, I think we need tocater for all different types of
communication and if people arehappier with texting, well you
(16:49):
know, that's why we have thatform of communication and we can
absolutely leverage it.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
What are you most excited for in the future of
eating disorder research?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Oh God, that's what a big question.
Thank you.
I mean gosh, so many things.
I mean.
I think something our groupdoes well that I absolutely love
is that we're coming at it fromall angles.
So that genetics, biologicalside so you know we have our
work that we do at the lab benchobviously this technology side
(17:21):
as well.
We're looking at it from apsychology and social
perspective, just as we weretalking before impacts of social
media, using that as a channelfor good.
So I think what I'm mostinterested in is the
intersection of all of thosecoming together to really tackle
eating disorders, becauseeating disorders are so
multifaceted, so you need thatmultifaceted solution.
(17:42):
So I'm just glad we are finallyexploring all the avenues we
need to instead of, I suppose,just psychological support.
Obviously, that's veryimportant, but I feel there's
lots of ways we can help people.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Gee, I find that really exciting.
And what about?
The thing that you find as aresearcher is most challenging
still?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Sorry for my laughter .
Everything Gosh.
I wow Sometimes me personally,I think because I'm a younger
woman.
I know I sound old to yourlisteners Sorry, listeners, I
swear.
In terms of research I'm notsuper old and I think sometimes
(18:26):
I might not get taken asseriously as some of my more
senior colleagues who might beanother gender.
So that think sometimes I mightnot get taken as seriously as
some of my more seniorcolleagues who might be another
gender.
So that's sometimes a bit of achallenge.
But obviously I think we'remaking good progress there and I
think sometimes eating disorderresearch does not receive the
funding it deserves,particularly given the
prevalence of it and the scopeof the issue that it impacts
(18:48):
people's lives so dramaticallyand their loved ones.
So sometimes it can be hard tofund the research that you want
to do.
But I wouldn't change my jobfor anything.
I have so much fun.
I get to think of new ideas allthe time and explore most of
them, and we get to launch coolthings and get to chat on
(19:09):
podcasts.
So I think my job is afantastic one and I don't have
much cause to complain at all.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yes, and I'm very grateful to have a young female
like yourself in the work thatyou do.
I think it's very, veryimportant.
I always found that one of thechallenges in research and
perhaps this is me from my mediaperspective is how the research
can often get confused and youget these clickbaity headlines.
(19:38):
So by the time it actuallyreaches the masses if it reaches
the masses at all it can getbutchered and the authenticity
or the meaning or the validityof it is totally missed, and
what we end up with is just aclickbait headline and nothing
else.
So that's something that Iwould love to see shifted as
well.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Absolutely yeah, and I think, well, you're doing a
fantastic job by, I suppose,allowing the researchers to tell
their own stories, and I thinkI've generally had very good
experiences with the mediabecause I think I've I've been
allowed to have my own quotes,my own recordings, et cetera in
my own voice and I think, aswell as lived experience, folks
(20:12):
who are part of our research too.
They're almost always part ofour stories, they're certainly
part of our research, because Ithink that really brings
research to life.
It takes it away from thosestatistical numbers or that one
percentage or whatever it justit needs to be brought to life,
as you said, and not, I suppose,iterated such that it no longer
(20:36):
resembles what it started outas.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Indeed.
Can I finish with one lastquestion, of course, for the
audience listening, what issomething that they can do on
social media based on yourlearnings, your research that
could help to improve their bodyimage?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Cat videos.
No, that's what I do.
That's the small silly cat onTwitter, slash X.
I'm a huge fan of that one.
I think it is.
I think it is.
It is finding what interestsyou and finding what you find
meaning in on social media,because I think there's so much
(21:15):
content out there and if we, Isuppose, keep clicking on the
same kinds of stories, that'swhat we get fed back because of
the way social media algorithmstend to work.
So I would always set anintention when I go on social
media that I'm going to look atsomething meaningful.
Maybe it's a quote, maybe it'sa beautiful picture, maybe it's
(21:35):
something to do with gardening.
I just think there are justthere's so much content there
that we're not accessing.
That would actually make usfeel better about ourselves in
general not just our bodies, butour minds and souls as well.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Spot on, I mean.
I think sometimes, when you'regoing through an eating disorder
, it can occupy your entireheadspace and it doesn't leave
much room for hobbies and thingsthat make you feel something
greater.
And I think finding what it isthat you even like you know,
yeah, just ask that question.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Like I will always ask my clients, patients, people
with eating disorders what isit that you like to do before
you had an eating disorder?
They'll say, I really likehorses or I like roller skating
or I like painting.
Like there's always somethingand I think that part of you is
still there, maybe just dormant,but it's still there.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
And I think living that full life, or at least
leaning into your interests more, can help to give more of your
headspace to those things thatmake your life bigger, as you're
saying.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Absolutely yeah, even if it's some Netflix series I
mean, isn't everyone watchingbaby reindeer at the moment?
Or if it's cat videos.
Whatever you know, you're fine.
I know.
You See I'm showing someinsights into my own viewing
habits here.
Stalkers and cats Anyway,stalker cat, I should make a
show about that.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Thank you so much for your time on the podcast and
please, if you do have moreresearch, which no doubt you
will have very shortly we'd loveto hear an update.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
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