July 28, 2024 • 31 mins
Struggle to turn exercise and healthy eating into a regular habit?
Join us as we chat with Dr. Gina Cleo, a habit change expert who shares her journey from dietitian to habit guru, overcoming personal battles with disordered eating.
We explore the art of creating sustainable habits, from starting small to making bigger changes that feel effortless.
Learn why your brain can handle only a few changes at once and how to smoothly integrate new routines into your daily life.
Whether you want to kickstart an exercise routine or redefine success beyond weight, Dr. Cleo’s insights provide practical steps and highlight the role of self-compassion in achieving long-term goals.
Want to learn more? Dr. Cleo’s book, "The Habit Revolution" reveals revolutionary breakthroughs in behavioural science that will help you uncover how your brain works, and how to rewire it to make instant and lasting changes in your life.
Want to feel more in control around food? Check out my Stop Struggling With Food Guide, currently on sale for 40% off.
You’ll also find 50 of my favourite recipes to get you inspired!
Get my Free 5 Day Course to help you stop binge and emotional eating.
Looking for more support to feel in control around food? I'd love to support you in my Binge Free Academy.
Come follow me on the gram at @nude_nutritionist (no nude pics, sorry).
Want to share some feedback or have an idea for an episode, I'd LOVE to hear from you - hit me up at hello@lyndicohen.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
The more I tried to restrict my eating, the harder I
was making it for myself.
One of the biggest reasonspeople will falter on their
goals and their habits isthey're trying to change goals
that are too big.
Setbacks are part of thejourney.
It's not if we fall.
It's when we fall.
These setbacks will happen andlife does life.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
That's when I'm like, okay, what I actually need to
focus on is my bounce backstrategy being able to modulate
your physical environment meansyou can kind of take away the
importance, the reliance onwillpower right, and make it
just a little bit easier, alittle bit gentler and kinder to
yourself.
Relying on willpower is likerelying on your cat to wake you
up for an important meeting.
(00:46):
Hello, hello, my friends, andwelcome to this week's episode
of the no Wellness Wankerypodcast.
I'm your host, lindy Koeh, anddietitian nutritionist and
(01:08):
someone who's constantly workingon better habits and adopting
new things and trying new thingsand these little experiments to
make my life a little bitbetter.
I am deeply interested in theresearch behind this, which is
why I'm so excited to bring youtoday's guest, dr Gina Cleo.
Oh, what can I say?
She's so good.
I think you're going to loveher.
She originally started as adietitian.
She's going to share a littlebit about her story as a
(01:28):
dietitian, how she got started,but then she kind of realized,
you know what?
We're not just the kind ofpeople who are going to follow
through with anything, becausewe are complex humans and the
real answer to creating betterhealth is through knowing how to
adopt habits that actuallystick around longer than a
celebrity marriage.
And so this is what she wroteher PhD on how she became Dr
(01:50):
Gina Cleo and now she runs theHabit Change Institute, where
she provides evidence-basedstrategies for helping other
people become habit coaches,habit masters to help transform
their lives and the people whothey help.
So welcome to the show, dr GinaCleo.
Dr Gina Cleo, gee, it is sogood to have you on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Lindy, finally, it's so good to be with you.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, we are kindreds and I feel like it's wild to me
that we've never met, becauseif you are listening to this
podcast and you're a fan of thework I do, then you're
definitely going to love Dr GinaCleo.
You are very much focused onhabits and habit formation,
because you know, like the restof us, we're not robots.
We're not, and so sure we mightknow exactly what we should be
doing, but we find it reallyhard to stick to it.
(02:39):
In fact, you ended up doingwhat you say is your PhD in
habits, so can you tell me alittle bit about what that means
?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So I started my career as a dietitian, yeah, and
I found that we did not have aknowledge deficit.
You know, people for the mostpart know what makes them feel
good.
They know, like the lifestylethat they might want to lead.
But we had a behavior problemin that I have all these ideas
of what I want my nutrition tolook like and my lifestyle to
(03:09):
look like, but this is what I'mactually doing and there's a gap
in those things.
And I became really fascinatedwith the brain, like why we do
the things we do.
Why is it that I say I'm goingto get up and exercise and I end
up scrolling on Facebookmarketplace for two hours
instead?
Like why do these things happen?
And also, I, you know, I wouldbe finishing a day of clinic and
then polishing off a packet oftin tams on my way home before
(03:33):
dinner and feeling really out ofcontrol.
So I wanted to learn about thebrain and habits and landed it
up doing a PhD because I'm acurious soul and needed all the
answers.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
And, in addition, it sounds like you have learned
experience of going.
You know, I know what it's liketo feel out of control of food.
Can you talk to me about yourrelationship with food growing
up?
Where was it and where is itnow?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, I mean I would say that I started, I guess, a
disordered eating when I wasprobably around 16.
When I hit puberty, my body waschanging.
Very typical story, right.
My mom also had her own eatingissues from a really young age.
So I was modeled this unhealthybehavior where essentially it
was just binging, purging,mostly binging, and feeling just
(04:22):
so guilty and like horribleabout it.
And it didn't really get betteruntil I was in my mid-20s when
I started learning about habitsand understanding more about the
limitations of my brain.
And actually, the more I triedto restrict my eating, the
harder I was making it formyself and I was perpetuating
(04:45):
the very cycle that I was tryingto work so hard to get out of.
And my eating now is, oh my God, I love food, like I am the
biggest foodie in the world andI feel so free around food and
it's been the most liberatingjourney that I've ever been
through in my life.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
What you say there is so interesting to me because
you're talking about the idea ofwe try so often to control our
habits and to try harder and weput all these like controls in
to try and force things tohappen.
Of course some habits areeasier to form than others, but
what are some ways that we canform better habits without
(05:24):
feeling like we have to whiteknuckle it and just like
persevere because we know thatdoesn't seem to stick nearly as
well as a gentler approach,right?
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, and the gentle approach is exactly it, and it's
hard for people who tend to beall or nothing or like go hard
or go home mentalities, becausewe want to achieve all our goals
yesterday, and I totally getthat.
The slow and steady is boringand tedious.
It's just like not what thefads are promising.
So how can we apply ourselvesto this slow and steady, gentle
(05:56):
approach, which might worklong-term, but it's not going to
help us right now.
Actually, one of the biggestreasons people will falter on
their goals and their habits isthey're trying to change goals
that are too big or they'retrying to change too many things
at one time.
Our brain's only capable ofmaking up to three changes at
one time, and when the goals aretoo big, our brain goes into
(06:18):
hyper arousal, which is a stateof fight or flight, and we
procrastinate.
We give up on ourselves.
So really we want to just startso small we feel like we can't
say no to doing it and thenbuild on that from there.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Can you give me some examples of that?
So let's get.
We know we've got three habitswe can change.
We can't overload ourselves.
Is starting a new exerciseregime?
Does that count as one, or isthat a few ones?
Because we need to bookourselves in, go and get
motivated, all that kind ofstuff.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, I guess it depends on where your starting
point is.
If you're someone who hasn'tdone any movement for a really
long time, that would probablybe the only thing that I would
suggest that you start with.
Just start moving.
And for some people, theirstarting line is going to be
putting on my shoes.
I'm just going to find myactive wear and I'm going to
wear that for a week.
I'm going to just like get upand the first thing I do is I'm
(07:09):
going to put on my active wear,I'll just walk around the house
and that might be it, whereasfor someone else, their starting
point might be a 20 minute walkor a yoga class or something
like that, and building it upfrom there is going to feel like
when that starts to feelautomatic and a bit more natural
and like smoothly part of yourday, then you can add to the
(07:31):
intensity or the frequency of it.
So do more than one class aweek or, instead of just putting
on your active wear, stepoutside to your letterbox or go
down the road and back and so onuntil it starts to feel
automatic, and then you buildagain.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Oh, you speak my language, and I think this is
just another reason why weshouldn't be using weight as our
metric for how we're trackingour success, because if you're
doing little micro habits andwe're building them in, you're
not going to see a visibledifference on the scale,
especially if you're weighingyourself as frequently as I was
doing when I was in my diet days.
So please can we step off thescale and kind of get a new way
(08:07):
of tracking our success.
And I think one of the thingsthat can derail us where we feel
like, oh, I've messed up today,I've fallen off the bandwagon,
and we kind of throw all of ourlittle successes that we've had
and go well, it doesn't reallycount, I had to start from
scratch.
What would you say to someonewho was kind of stuck in that
mindset of thinking like I've,I've ruined it, I have to start,
(08:30):
and I'll start again on Mondayas opposed to I'll start right
now.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Oh my gosh, this was.
I was like the queen of thismindset, like I would have like
one thing out of place, like onething I didn't plan on having,
literally like one wafer, andI'd be like, oh, ruin the day,
and I would have a binge for therest of the day and be like
have to start on Monday and I'dbe like already Monday, so I
have to do like a whole week.
(08:54):
I'm just going to have aterrible week, a whole week.
It was so bad.
But what I learned is thatsetbacks are part of the journey
.
It's not if we fall, it's whenwe fall.
Changing our habits is aprocess of two steps forward,
one step back, and that stepback is part of it.
So expect it to happen.
And when I really believed that, that I'm not superhuman, that
(09:19):
these setbacks will happen andlife does life, that's when I'm
like, okay, what I actually needto focus on is my bounce back
strategy.
What am I going to do now?
And it became instead of I'mgoing to start on Monday.
It's all right, gina, you'vejust had something that you
didn't want to have and that'sokay.
That's going to happen fromtime to time, but the very next
(09:41):
meal can look different time.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
But the very next meal can look different.
And that self-compassion was agame changer.
It's almost like we think if weyell at ourselves, we're going
to motivate ourselves to tryharder and do better.
But I think about all theteachers I've had in my past
growing up at school, and it wasalways the ones who, yes,
expected a lot of me, but theydefinitely had some compassion
and kindness there.
So it's trying to be that goodteacher to yourself as well.
And you mentioned this idea ofalmost saving the day, right.
(10:09):
So you know, sometimes we think, well, we've ruined it already,
but very much like that nextmeal, you can save the day in
the next meal.
You can save the day just bygetting to sleep a little bit
earlier.
It's never too late to save theday.
Um, as opposed, which is thedirect opposite of the like well
, screw it, I've messed upalready.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, so true, it's getting rid of that all or
nothing thinking and youmentioned before, lindy, you
know, using another scale.
That's not the scale, likeusing another measure.
And I really love the idea of ahabit tracker because, no
matter how small the habit is,you can still tick it off.
If the habit that you're tryingto create is movement and you
(10:48):
start by just putting on youractive wear, you can still give
yourself a tick that you've donethat because that was your goal
for the day.
And then you get that dopaminehit, that sense of achievement
and accomplishment.
It reinforces the habit againand you can feel good for
yourself, like for the smallestthings, and it's really
empowering.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I really love that.
I think there is a way to trackthings without it becoming
obsessive, and I think sometimespeople get stuck in this trap
of being like there has to be awhat's the word?
Where you get quite a few in arow.
Oh, like a streak.
Yeah, people get obsessed withtrying to get a streak and
getting everything in a row andif I mess up my streak then I've
(11:28):
I've screwed up already.
But, as you said, it's likeexpecting that the you don't
need a streak, you don't need astrike.
You can kind of just likeexpect that you're going to have
days where you don't take itoff, and that's okay, cause
tomorrow is always tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Totally love that Lovely Like, just like.
Soft, gentle approach is somuch more effective than, yeah,
trying to scold ourselves intobeing good.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Amen.
Can we talk about?
Let's say, I've got, I've got aclient and she's 60.
She's like listen, I'm goingthrough menopause.
I have been dieting since I was10.
I have spent my life in thesehabits that are not serving me.
Is it too late for me?
Am I?
Am I fixable?
Can I learn to thinkdifferently about food?
Or, you know, is it even worthbothering?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
What would you say to someone like that?
The good news is that ourhabits are malleable throughout
our entire life and you canteach an old dog new tricks.
If you think of the brain,neurons that fire together, wire
together and neurons that failto link are out of sync.
So what that means is the moreyou think in a certain way, the
stronger you reinforce it inyour life.
(12:36):
But the minute that you decideto think in a different way, to
rewire that brain, you start tothen think differently and that
becomes your new normal.
We can do that our entire life.
When we've had habits for areally long time 50 plus years
it feels like they're part ofour identity.
It's who we are, it's how weexist, and it can feel like
(12:58):
we're victims to them, but we'renot.
We're simply just reinforcingthem because we continue to
repeat them and all we need todo is just make a choice to do
it differently.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I feel like that's very sobering, lovely, humbling,
to hear that there's never atime when we can't make an
action.
Inside Binge Free Academy,which is my binge eating program
, what we talk about a lot isthe thoughts that really drive
the habits, because we realizewe can change those thoughts and
sometimes those thoughts can beso hardwired and so default.
But having comebacks for thosethoughts to help us rewire them
(13:33):
is so important.
So what you're saying is thereis a real big importance in
becoming aware of the thoughtsthat underpin the habits, or do
the habits come first and thenthe thoughts tend to change?
What's your thought on that?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
I think it depends.
I think it depends on the habit, where it started, how long
we've had it, how mindful wewere at the time.
I think the thing thatunderpins our habits more than
our thoughts is the triggers, iswhat triggers those habits.
So, for example, with bingeeating, for me it was always the
thought that I'm not enough,that I'm not good enough or my
(14:08):
body is not a certain way thatit should look, and that thought
and the emotion that came withthat is what triggered my binge
eating.
When I changed that cycle, youknow, when it became I am enough
and I'm okay and I'm lovableand acceptable, then I took away
the trigger.
And now the habit fell away,the binging fell away because
(14:31):
the trigger was no longer there.
So what you're?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
saying is it's the trigger.
Thought, eg, oh, it's mydaughter's wedding coming up
soon.
I've got 12 weeks to lose 12kilograms.
Yeah, that thought, the urge todiet and the thoughts that
surround that of my body isn'tgood enough.
That is the trigger and that'sthe thing you need to be really
aware of, because that's what'sgoing to throw you in to that
disordered eating state right,exactly right, I think.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
When we have unwanted habits, we focus so much on the
habit that we want to change.
We're like I'm going to go home, I'm going to be good, those
cookies are dead to me.
I am just like going to eatclean.
And then we get home and we'retriggered and what happens is
like two cookies in your mouthat once, and now you're like
elbow deep in a packet of chips,and it's because we we didn't
(15:18):
address the trigger.
When our brain, when that habitis triggered, it's really hard
to go against it because yourentire physiology starts to move
you towards that habit, causeyour brain's like hey, I know
what happens next when I feellike this.
This is what I do to feel good.
And so when I'm feeling likeI'm not enough, I binge eat, and
it makes me feel better, and sothat's what we do.
(15:41):
And so, of course, you're goingto have the urges to do that.
But if we can focus on thetrigger, what happens when
you're having the urge to have abinge?
Think to yourself in thatmoment where am I?
What time of day is it?
How am I feeling?
Who am I around?
What have I just donebeforehand?
What are the thoughts andfeelings consuming me right now.
(16:02):
What am I running away from?
That is going to be yoursuperpower.
It's just taking a moment withthe discomfort of that sitting
with that.
That's where the magic lies, inthat moment.
That does sound like asuperpower.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Gee, I love you.
I love everything you do.
Can you talk to me about theHabit Revolution, the book that
you wrote?
Why'd you write it and who's itfor?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I wrote the Habit Revolution.
Well, I was really coerced intowriting it.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
People are like.
We need to know what you know.
You must share it with us,Don't gatekeep.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
No, I found that.
You know there are some greatHaber books out there, but I
wanted to bring anevidence-based, practical
approach that spoke both to menand women, that can handhold
someone through a difficultjourney.
I didn't want to sugarcoat whatthe journey of change looked
like, because change is hard,and I also wanted to share as
(17:02):
someone from my perspective.
You know I've had disorderedeating, I've gone through a
traumatic experience.
These things have shaped who Iam now, and now I live a life of
like my habits are by designand my life is lived by design,
and I'm so thrilled with that.
And it was through the toolsthat I learned through my habit
(17:24):
change.
You know research and studies,and so I really wanted to help
people experience that level offreedom and that's why I wrote
the book.
Also, my agent was like youhave to write a book for like
years.
So I was like, oh my gosh, theonly way to make you shut up is
to write a book.
But I'm so, so glad I did.
It's now being translated inChinese and Korean.
(17:47):
It's on audiobook, like it's.
It's helped so many people andI get emails every day of people
sharing how it's changed theirlife and it's been the most
rewarding thing I've ever done.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Well, that sounds, sounds like something we all
need to read and I'm so glad yougot coerced into writing it,
thank you, thank you, agent.
So you know, you mentioned nowthat you're in a really healthy,
happy place with your food,with your life.
It sounds like your habits aremostly in order, but even though
you are the expert on thesubject matter and a dietitian,
(18:21):
I'm sure there are habits thatyou're always like.
I'd love to tweak this, improvethat.
Give me an example.
You don't have to give me aclear example, but just let's
say there's a habit in your lifeYou're like oh, I'd like to
work on that.
What's your process for going?
What am I going to do?
How am I going to modulate it?
Can you talk me through a DrGina Cleo kind of insight?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Do you want me to talk about how I'd like to
create, or one I'd like to break?
Sure?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Hmm, hmm, hmm, both Greedy, I'm greedy, I'd like
both.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Okay, but creating one's easier for me.
Well, actually no, I think thesystem is easier.
So what I do is I think of thehabit that I want to create.
So, let's say, more recently,it's been to add like mobility
work into my movement.
I'm like, all right, getting abit creaky in my knees, I need
(19:14):
to do some mobility.
I've resisted this for a longtime.
I'm like, all right, I reallygot to do it now.
I don't like mobility, I findit boring.
You know I've got a backgroundof powerlifting, so I'm like
give me that hundred kilodeadlift and mobility feels
tedious, but my body loves it.
And so first thing I do is Iremind myself why it's important
(19:37):
, why it's going to benefit mylife, and I really like pump up
my intrinsic motivation.
What will life look like if Idid this consistently for five
years?
One year?
What will life look like if Idon't do my mobility work?
And that is like enough to go.
Oh yeah, I now want to create aplan to add this into my life.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
So you have a vision in your mind, you're imagining
what you look like, what yourlife looks like, imagining that
lifestyle in the sliding doorsmoment, with or without.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, exactly, and that's how I build intrinsic
motivation, because I've triedfor a really long time to
consciously go.
Mobility is a good idea and itdid nothing.
I had to feel it, I had toexperience it and see it in my
mind's eye and how it impactedmy life, and that was motivating
(20:28):
.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
So being all practical about it and being
like cool, what does all thesebenefits?
And being all clinical, that'snot as effective as being
emotive and going listen, how amI going to make, how is it
going to make me feel?
And just creating that reallyclear vision for yourself.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, we're much more driven by our emotions than our
thoughts.
There's no point throwing factsat people.
It's it's kind of interesting,interesting, but it's not
inspiring enough.
It has to feel relevant to theperson.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I love that.
I think that's really veryuseful, and then you go about
breaking it down into like abite size.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, I plan like cool, I'm gonna add five minutes
of mobility at the end of myworkout and I've just like got
an app make it really super easy.
I only do the mobility workthat I enjoy.
The others I'm like skip, skip,skip.
That's fine.
That's just where I'm at rightnow.
I'm only starting with it andthen, with time, I'll probably
(21:23):
add a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah.
So once again that gentle.
It's got to be enjoyable.
It's got to give you thatdopamine hit.
If you're making it too hard,straight off the bat it's going
to crumble.
So you're finding that likelower bar to entry.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And then, what about getting rid of a habit that
you're like, oh, you're notserving me anymore.
See ya, bye, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I have this unwanted.
I'm not a scroller.
I don't actually really likesocial media a lot.
Not a scroller, like I don'tactually really like social
media a lot.
I'm not someone who just findsthat very interesting.
But my confession here is Ilove a good phone game Like give
me Tetris any day.
There's a game called SpellTower and like I can play Spell
(22:05):
Tower for eight hours a day andit's like my escape, right.
But it's also a distractionfrom nature, from looking up and
experiencing life and beingpresent, and I used to play it.
You know a lot more than Iwould like to.
So to break that habit, I triedkeeping the app on my phone and
(22:29):
just like putting boundariesaround it.
That didn't work.
I just had to delete the wholething.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Take away the.
You know the actual I can't.
I don't have a choice.
I can't play spell tower, it'snot on my phone anymore, so that
worked.
But I, you know, if it'sanother sort of, if it's a habit
that I want to break, I justmake.
I create barriers and we arecreatures of habit and we also
(22:58):
love the path of leastresistance.
If you create a barrier for thehabit that you want to break,
it makes it so much easier tobreak it.
So if that's say, you want todrink less wine, put the wine in
a really hard to reach shelfthat you've got to get a step
ladder for and create thosebarriers, and that in itself
gives you enough time to havemindfulness.
(23:20):
It's like just enough time togo.
Do?
I actually want to do that, andthat is a really helpful
strategy for me to use.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Oh, I love that.
So if you want to break thehabit of weighing yourself as
frequently as you do and you'renot ready to throw out your
scale, go and put the scale inthe garage or a very high it's
hard to reach place just becauseyou got to get the ladder out
to get it.
It's such an inconvenience andthen you put it right back there
.
If you do ever use it that way,you kind of have the options.
But what you're talking aboutis environmental cues, creating
(23:48):
an environment that supports usto be healthier.
I was recently in America andone of the things I noticed is I
was in Utah, there were nosidewalks in the suburb that I
was walking in and it was soincredibly hard for me to go on
a safe walk with my childrenwhere the cars really rained the
roost and it just is a reminderof your environment so deeply
(24:10):
influences your ability to behealthy, the social determinants
of health, and being able tomodulate your physical
environment means you can kindof take away the importance, the
reliance on willpower right,and make it just a little bit
easier, a little bit gentler andkinder to yourself, yes, so
true, because willpower is afleeting resource.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
We don't have unlimited amounts of it, so it's
not a resource we can depend on.
So I love that our environmentdrives our behavior, so we can
create an environment that fuelsour healthy habits.
Oh, we make it so much easierfor ourselves.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Spot on.
I always think that relying onwillpower is like relying on
your cat to wake you up for animportant meeting.
Like it could happen, but itlike it probably won't.
And it's just like sure.
Let's think of better systems.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
That's just a really faulty system to rely upon.
I love this.
I used to say I describe it asthe friend who will ghost you.
Like they might go, but I likethe cat.
I'm going to use the catanalogy from now.
Do cats even wake people up?
Don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well, don't have a cat sometimes yes, but sometimes
no, and that's the conundrum wehave.
But yes, the ghosting friend,the, the unloyal friends,
because that's exactly what itis.
It makes you think that it canbe depended on and then when you
you really need it, it's gone,it's disappeared.
It's chatting up the guy at theat the bar and you're like dude
, we came together, I thoughtyou, I thought you, I thought
(25:30):
you had my back, but you did not.
And now you actually helppeople, teach other people about
habits.
So you're kind of like themaster, the habit master.
And can you tell me a littlebit about what you do with the
Habit Change Institute?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah, thank you, lindy.
I created the Habit ChangeInstitute because I felt like I
needed to clone myself.
I didn't have enough capacityto coach people one-on-one
because I do a lot of corporatework and a lot of like online
courses.
So the Institute was birthedout of this desire to impart
(26:05):
this knowledge that's generallyhidden behind paid walls and
medical journals and really hardto determine and decipher
medical research.
So I just distilled it all down, I made it really easy to
understand and implement and Icreated the Habit Practitioner
course and that's reallydesigned for health
professionals or coaches oreducators or anyone who works
(26:28):
with someone where behavior isinvolved, and it's a
self-directed online course.
I'm available anytime forquestions during that time and
there's also alumni training.
So there's ongoing trainingthat alumni will get forever,
essentially because habitresearch is always evolving and
there's a beautiful communityworldwide now of habit
(26:52):
practitioners and advancedpractitioners from every
continent, apart from Antarctica.
I'm yet to hit Antarctica, soif anyone's listening,
antarctica, come do my course.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
And so the ideal person to do your course would
be someone who's currently apractitioner already maybe a
coach or a personal trainer, a anutritionist, someone who's
already seeing clients.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Exactly.
Yeah, I've got school teachers,nurses, doctors, even like
health and safety managers whowant to help, like their staff
members be more safe around ayard.
It's really like anybody whoworks with somebody else.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Okay, I love this.
Thank you so much for joiningus on the podcast today.
Can I ask you if there was onething you wanted everyone to
know about habit formation,breaking habits, one tip you can
leave us with that you think'sa pearler.
What would it be?
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I think it's actually that you are not stuck with
your brain, that, no matterwhatever habits, whatever your
habits look like right now, theydon't have to look like that
tomorrow or the day after that.
You can design your lifeexactly how you want it to be
through consistent habit change,and it's all about consistency,
(28:08):
not intensity.
Start small really reallyreally small and know that you
can change any of your habits.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I'm such a fan of yours.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, thank
you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Thank you for having me.
Let's do coffee sometime.
Everyone, thank you.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode.
We'll see you next week.
The more I tried to restrict my eating, the harder I
was making it for myself.
One of the biggest reasonspeople will falter on their
goals and their habits isthey're trying to change goals
that are too big.
Setbacks are part of thejourney.
It's not if we fall.
It's when we fall.
These setbacks will happen andlife does life.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
That's when I'm like, okay, what I actually need to
focus on is my bounce backstrategy being able to modulate
your physical environment meansyou can kind of take away the
importance, the reliance onwillpower right, and make it
just a little bit easier, alittle bit gentler and kinder to
yourself.
Relying on willpower is likerelying on your cat to wake you
up for an important meeting.
(00:46):
Hello, hello, my friends, andwelcome to this week's episode
of the no Wellness Wankerypodcast.
I'm your host, lindy Koeh, anddietitian nutritionist and
(01:08):
someone who's constantly workingon better habits and adopting
new things and trying new thingsand these little experiments to
make my life a little bitbetter.
I am deeply interested in theresearch behind this, which is
why I'm so excited to bring youtoday's guest, dr Gina Cleo.
Oh, what can I say?
She's so good.
I think you're going to loveher.
She originally started as adietitian.
She's going to share a littlebit about her story as a
(01:28):
dietitian, how she got started,but then she kind of realized,
you know what?
We're not just the kind ofpeople who are going to follow
through with anything, becausewe are complex humans and the
real answer to creating betterhealth is through knowing how to
adopt habits that actuallystick around longer than a
celebrity marriage.
And so this is what she wroteher PhD on how she became Dr
(01:50):
Gina Cleo and now she runs theHabit Change Institute, where
she provides evidence-basedstrategies for helping other
people become habit coaches,habit masters to help transform
their lives and the people whothey help.
So welcome to the show, dr GinaCleo.
Dr Gina Cleo, gee, it is sogood to have you on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Lindy, finally, it's so good to be with you.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, we are kindreds and I feel like it's wild to me
that we've never met, becauseif you are listening to this
podcast and you're a fan of thework I do, then you're
definitely going to love Dr GinaCleo.
You are very much focused onhabits and habit formation,
because you know, like the restof us, we're not robots.
We're not, and so sure we mightknow exactly what we should be
doing, but we find it reallyhard to stick to it.
(02:39):
In fact, you ended up doingwhat you say is your PhD in
habits, so can you tell me alittle bit about what that means
?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So I started my career as a dietitian, yeah, and
I found that we did not have aknowledge deficit.
You know, people for the mostpart know what makes them feel
good.
They know, like the lifestylethat they might want to lead.
But we had a behavior problemin that I have all these ideas
of what I want my nutrition tolook like and my lifestyle to
(03:09):
look like, but this is what I'mactually doing and there's a gap
in those things.
And I became really fascinatedwith the brain, like why we do
the things we do.
Why is it that I say I'm goingto get up and exercise and I end
up scrolling on Facebookmarketplace for two hours
instead?
Like why do these things happen?
And also, I, you know, I wouldbe finishing a day of clinic and
then polishing off a packet oftin tams on my way home before
(03:33):
dinner and feeling really out ofcontrol.
So I wanted to learn about thebrain and habits and landed it
up doing a PhD because I'm acurious soul and needed all the
answers.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
And, in addition, it sounds like you have learned
experience of going.
You know, I know what it's liketo feel out of control of food.
Can you talk to me about yourrelationship with food growing
up?
Where was it and where is itnow?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, I mean I would say that I started, I guess, a
disordered eating when I wasprobably around 16.
When I hit puberty, my body waschanging.
Very typical story, right.
My mom also had her own eatingissues from a really young age.
So I was modeled this unhealthybehavior where essentially it
was just binging, purging,mostly binging, and feeling just
(04:22):
so guilty and like horribleabout it.
And it didn't really get betteruntil I was in my mid-20s when
I started learning about habitsand understanding more about the
limitations of my brain.
And actually, the more I triedto restrict my eating, the
harder I was making it formyself and I was perpetuating
(04:45):
the very cycle that I was tryingto work so hard to get out of.
And my eating now is, oh my God, I love food, like I am the
biggest foodie in the world andI feel so free around food and
it's been the most liberatingjourney that I've ever been
through in my life.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
What you say there is so interesting to me because
you're talking about the idea ofwe try so often to control our
habits and to try harder and weput all these like controls in
to try and force things tohappen.
Of course some habits areeasier to form than others, but
what are some ways that we canform better habits without
(05:24):
feeling like we have to whiteknuckle it and just like
persevere because we know thatdoesn't seem to stick nearly as
well as a gentler approach,right?
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, and the gentle approach is exactly it, and it's
hard for people who tend to beall or nothing or like go hard
or go home mentalities, becausewe want to achieve all our goals
yesterday, and I totally getthat.
The slow and steady is boringand tedious.
It's just like not what thefads are promising.
So how can we apply ourselvesto this slow and steady, gentle
(05:56):
approach, which might worklong-term, but it's not going to
help us right now.
Actually, one of the biggestreasons people will falter on
their goals and their habits isthey're trying to change goals
that are too big or they'retrying to change too many things
at one time.
Our brain's only capable ofmaking up to three changes at
one time, and when the goals aretoo big, our brain goes into
(06:18):
hyper arousal, which is a stateof fight or flight, and we
procrastinate.
We give up on ourselves.
So really we want to just startso small we feel like we can't
say no to doing it and thenbuild on that from there.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Can you give me some examples of that?
So let's get.
We know we've got three habitswe can change.
We can't overload ourselves.
Is starting a new exerciseregime?
Does that count as one, or isthat a few ones?
Because we need to bookourselves in, go and get
motivated, all that kind ofstuff.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, I guess it depends on where your starting
point is.
If you're someone who hasn'tdone any movement for a really
long time, that would probablybe the only thing that I would
suggest that you start with.
Just start moving.
And for some people, theirstarting line is going to be
putting on my shoes.
I'm just going to find myactive wear and I'm going to
wear that for a week.
I'm going to just like get upand the first thing I do is I'm
(07:09):
going to put on my active wear,I'll just walk around the house
and that might be it, whereasfor someone else, their starting
point might be a 20 minute walkor a yoga class or something
like that, and building it upfrom there is going to feel like
when that starts to feelautomatic and a bit more natural
and like smoothly part of yourday, then you can add to the
(07:31):
intensity or the frequency of it.
So do more than one class aweek or, instead of just putting
on your active wear, stepoutside to your letterbox or go
down the road and back and so onuntil it starts to feel
automatic, and then you buildagain.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Oh, you speak my language, and I think this is
just another reason why weshouldn't be using weight as our
metric for how we're trackingour success, because if you're
doing little micro habits andwe're building them in, you're
not going to see a visibledifference on the scale,
especially if you're weighingyourself as frequently as I was
doing when I was in my diet days.
So please can we step off thescale and kind of get a new way
(08:07):
of tracking our success.
And I think one of the thingsthat can derail us where we feel
like, oh, I've messed up today,I've fallen off the bandwagon,
and we kind of throw all of ourlittle successes that we've had
and go well, it doesn't reallycount, I had to start from
scratch.
What would you say to someonewho was kind of stuck in that
mindset of thinking like I've,I've ruined it, I have to start,
(08:30):
and I'll start again on Mondayas opposed to I'll start right
now.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Oh my gosh, this was.
I was like the queen of thismindset, like I would have like
one thing out of place, like onething I didn't plan on having,
literally like one wafer, andI'd be like, oh, ruin the day,
and I would have a binge for therest of the day and be like
have to start on Monday and I'dbe like already Monday, so I
have to do like a whole week.
(08:54):
I'm just going to have aterrible week, a whole week.
It was so bad.
But what I learned is thatsetbacks are part of the journey
.
It's not if we fall, it's whenwe fall.
Changing our habits is aprocess of two steps forward,
one step back, and that stepback is part of it.
So expect it to happen.
And when I really believed that, that I'm not superhuman, that
(09:19):
these setbacks will happen andlife does life, that's when I'm
like, okay, what I actually needto focus on is my bounce back
strategy.
What am I going to do now?
And it became instead of I'mgoing to start on Monday.
It's all right, gina, you'vejust had something that you
didn't want to have and that'sokay.
That's going to happen fromtime to time, but the very next
(09:41):
meal can look different time.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
But the very next meal can look different.
And that self-compassion was agame changer.
It's almost like we think if weyell at ourselves, we're going
to motivate ourselves to tryharder and do better.
But I think about all theteachers I've had in my past
growing up at school, and it wasalways the ones who, yes,
expected a lot of me, but theydefinitely had some compassion
and kindness there.
So it's trying to be that goodteacher to yourself as well.
And you mentioned this idea ofalmost saving the day, right.
(10:09):
So you know, sometimes we think, well, we've ruined it already,
but very much like that nextmeal, you can save the day in
the next meal.
You can save the day just bygetting to sleep a little bit
earlier.
It's never too late to save theday.
Um, as opposed, which is thedirect opposite of the like well
, screw it, I've messed upalready.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, so true, it's getting rid of that all or
nothing thinking and youmentioned before, lindy, you
know, using another scale.
That's not the scale, likeusing another measure.
And I really love the idea of ahabit tracker because, no
matter how small the habit is,you can still tick it off.
If the habit that you're tryingto create is movement and you
(10:48):
start by just putting on youractive wear, you can still give
yourself a tick that you've donethat because that was your goal
for the day.
And then you get that dopaminehit, that sense of achievement
and accomplishment.
It reinforces the habit againand you can feel good for
yourself, like for the smallestthings, and it's really
empowering.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I really love that.
I think there is a way to trackthings without it becoming
obsessive, and I think sometimespeople get stuck in this trap
of being like there has to be awhat's the word?
Where you get quite a few in arow.
Oh, like a streak.
Yeah, people get obsessed withtrying to get a streak and
getting everything in a row andif I mess up my streak then I've
(11:28):
I've screwed up already.
But, as you said, it's likeexpecting that the you don't
need a streak, you don't need astrike.
You can kind of just likeexpect that you're going to have
days where you don't take itoff, and that's okay, cause
tomorrow is always tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Totally love that Lovely Like, just like.
Soft, gentle approach is somuch more effective than, yeah,
trying to scold ourselves intobeing good.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Amen.
Can we talk about?
Let's say, I've got, I've got aclient and she's 60.
She's like listen, I'm goingthrough menopause.
I have been dieting since I was10.
I have spent my life in thesehabits that are not serving me.
Is it too late for me?
Am I?
Am I fixable?
Can I learn to thinkdifferently about food?
Or, you know, is it even worthbothering?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
What would you say to someone like that?
The good news is that ourhabits are malleable throughout
our entire life and you canteach an old dog new tricks.
If you think of the brain,neurons that fire together, wire
together and neurons that failto link are out of sync.
So what that means is the moreyou think in a certain way, the
stronger you reinforce it inyour life.
(12:36):
But the minute that you decideto think in a different way, to
rewire that brain, you start tothen think differently and that
becomes your new normal.
We can do that our entire life.
When we've had habits for areally long time 50 plus years
it feels like they're part ofour identity.
It's who we are, it's how weexist, and it can feel like
(12:58):
we're victims to them, but we'renot.
We're simply just reinforcingthem because we continue to
repeat them and all we need todo is just make a choice to do
it differently.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I feel like that's very sobering, lovely, humbling,
to hear that there's never atime when we can't make an
action.
Inside Binge Free Academy,which is my binge eating program
, what we talk about a lot isthe thoughts that really drive
the habits, because we realizewe can change those thoughts and
sometimes those thoughts can beso hardwired and so default.
But having comebacks for thosethoughts to help us rewire them
(13:33):
is so important.
So what you're saying is thereis a real big importance in
becoming aware of the thoughtsthat underpin the habits, or do
the habits come first and thenthe thoughts tend to change?
What's your thought on that?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
I think it depends.
I think it depends on the habit, where it started, how long
we've had it, how mindful wewere at the time.
I think the thing thatunderpins our habits more than
our thoughts is the triggers, iswhat triggers those habits.
So, for example, with bingeeating, for me it was always the
thought that I'm not enough,that I'm not good enough or my
(14:08):
body is not a certain way thatit should look, and that thought
and the emotion that came withthat is what triggered my binge
eating.
When I changed that cycle, youknow, when it became I am enough
and I'm okay and I'm lovableand acceptable, then I took away
the trigger.
And now the habit fell away,the binging fell away because
(14:31):
the trigger was no longer there.
So what you're?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
saying is it's the trigger.
Thought, eg, oh, it's mydaughter's wedding coming up
soon.
I've got 12 weeks to lose 12kilograms.
Yeah, that thought, the urge todiet and the thoughts that
surround that of my body isn'tgood enough.
That is the trigger and that'sthe thing you need to be really
aware of, because that's what'sgoing to throw you in to that
disordered eating state right,exactly right, I think.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
When we have unwanted habits, we focus so much on the
habit that we want to change.
We're like I'm going to go home, I'm going to be good, those
cookies are dead to me.
I am just like going to eatclean.
And then we get home and we'retriggered and what happens is
like two cookies in your mouthat once, and now you're like
elbow deep in a packet of chips,and it's because we we didn't
(15:18):
address the trigger.
When our brain, when that habitis triggered, it's really hard
to go against it because yourentire physiology starts to move
you towards that habit, causeyour brain's like hey, I know
what happens next when I feellike this.
This is what I do to feel good.
And so when I'm feeling likeI'm not enough, I binge eat, and
it makes me feel better, and sothat's what we do.
(15:41):
And so, of course, you're goingto have the urges to do that.
But if we can focus on thetrigger, what happens when
you're having the urge to have abinge?
Think to yourself in thatmoment where am I?
What time of day is it?
How am I feeling?
Who am I around?
What have I just donebeforehand?
What are the thoughts andfeelings consuming me right now.
(16:02):
What am I running away from?
That is going to be yoursuperpower.
It's just taking a moment withthe discomfort of that sitting
with that.
That's where the magic lies, inthat moment.
That does sound like asuperpower.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Gee, I love you.
I love everything you do.
Can you talk to me about theHabit Revolution, the book that
you wrote?
Why'd you write it and who's itfor?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I wrote the Habit Revolution.
Well, I was really coerced intowriting it.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
People are like.
We need to know what you know.
You must share it with us,Don't gatekeep.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
No, I found that.
You know there are some greatHaber books out there, but I
wanted to bring anevidence-based, practical
approach that spoke both to menand women, that can handhold
someone through a difficultjourney.
I didn't want to sugarcoat whatthe journey of change looked
like, because change is hard,and I also wanted to share as
(17:02):
someone from my perspective.
You know I've had disorderedeating, I've gone through a
traumatic experience.
These things have shaped who Iam now, and now I live a life of
like my habits are by designand my life is lived by design,
and I'm so thrilled with that.
And it was through the toolsthat I learned through my habit
(17:24):
change.
You know research and studies,and so I really wanted to help
people experience that level offreedom and that's why I wrote
the book.
Also, my agent was like youhave to write a book for like
years.
So I was like, oh my gosh, theonly way to make you shut up is
to write a book.
But I'm so, so glad I did.
It's now being translated inChinese and Korean.
(17:47):
It's on audiobook, like it's.
It's helped so many people andI get emails every day of people
sharing how it's changed theirlife and it's been the most
rewarding thing I've ever done.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Well, that sounds, sounds like something we all
need to read and I'm so glad yougot coerced into writing it,
thank you, thank you, agent.
So you know, you mentioned nowthat you're in a really healthy,
happy place with your food,with your life.
It sounds like your habits aremostly in order, but even though
you are the expert on thesubject matter and a dietitian,
(18:21):
I'm sure there are habits thatyou're always like.
I'd love to tweak this, improvethat.
Give me an example.
You don't have to give me aclear example, but just let's
say there's a habit in your lifeYou're like oh, I'd like to
work on that.
What's your process for going?
What am I going to do?
How am I going to modulate it?
Can you talk me through a DrGina Cleo kind of insight?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Do you want me to talk about how I'd like to
create, or one I'd like to break?
Sure?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Hmm, hmm, hmm, both Greedy, I'm greedy, I'd like
both.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Okay, but creating one's easier for me.
Well, actually no, I think thesystem is easier.
So what I do is I think of thehabit that I want to create.
So, let's say, more recently,it's been to add like mobility
work into my movement.
I'm like, all right, getting abit creaky in my knees, I need
(19:14):
to do some mobility.
I've resisted this for a longtime.
I'm like, all right, I reallygot to do it now.
I don't like mobility, I findit boring.
You know I've got a backgroundof powerlifting, so I'm like
give me that hundred kilodeadlift and mobility feels
tedious, but my body loves it.
And so first thing I do is Iremind myself why it's important
(19:37):
, why it's going to benefit mylife, and I really like pump up
my intrinsic motivation.
What will life look like if Idid this consistently for five
years?
One year?
What will life look like if Idon't do my mobility work?
And that is like enough to go.
Oh yeah, I now want to create aplan to add this into my life.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
So you have a vision in your mind, you're imagining
what you look like, what yourlife looks like, imagining that
lifestyle in the sliding doorsmoment, with or without.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, exactly, and that's how I build intrinsic
motivation, because I've triedfor a really long time to
consciously go.
Mobility is a good idea and itdid nothing.
I had to feel it, I had toexperience it and see it in my
mind's eye and how it impactedmy life, and that was motivating
(20:28):
.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
So being all practical about it and being
like cool, what does all thesebenefits?
And being all clinical, that'snot as effective as being
emotive and going listen, how amI going to make, how is it
going to make me feel?
And just creating that reallyclear vision for yourself.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, we're much more driven by our emotions than our
thoughts.
There's no point throwing factsat people.
It's it's kind of interesting,interesting, but it's not
inspiring enough.
It has to feel relevant to theperson.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I love that.
I think that's really veryuseful, and then you go about
breaking it down into like abite size.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, I plan like cool, I'm gonna add five minutes
of mobility at the end of myworkout and I've just like got
an app make it really super easy.
I only do the mobility workthat I enjoy.
The others I'm like skip, skip,skip.
That's fine.
That's just where I'm at rightnow.
I'm only starting with it andthen, with time, I'll probably
(21:23):
add a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah.
So once again that gentle.
It's got to be enjoyable.
It's got to give you thatdopamine hit.
If you're making it too hard,straight off the bat it's going
to crumble.
So you're finding that likelower bar to entry.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And then, what about getting rid of a habit that
you're like, oh, you're notserving me anymore.
See ya, bye, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I have this unwanted.
I'm not a scroller.
I don't actually really likesocial media a lot.
Not a scroller, like I don'tactually really like social
media a lot.
I'm not someone who just findsthat very interesting.
But my confession here is Ilove a good phone game Like give
me Tetris any day.
There's a game called SpellTower and like I can play Spell
(22:05):
Tower for eight hours a day andit's like my escape, right.
But it's also a distractionfrom nature, from looking up and
experiencing life and beingpresent, and I used to play it.
You know a lot more than Iwould like to.
So to break that habit, I triedkeeping the app on my phone and
(22:29):
just like putting boundariesaround it.
That didn't work.
I just had to delete the wholething.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Take away the.
You know the actual I can't.
I don't have a choice.
I can't play spell tower, it'snot on my phone anymore, so that
worked.
But I, you know, if it'sanother sort of, if it's a habit
that I want to break, I justmake.
I create barriers and we arecreatures of habit and we also
(22:58):
love the path of leastresistance.
If you create a barrier for thehabit that you want to break,
it makes it so much easier tobreak it.
So if that's say, you want todrink less wine, put the wine in
a really hard to reach shelfthat you've got to get a step
ladder for and create thosebarriers, and that in itself
gives you enough time to havemindfulness.
(23:20):
It's like just enough time togo.
Do?
I actually want to do that, andthat is a really helpful
strategy for me to use.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Oh, I love that.
So if you want to break thehabit of weighing yourself as
frequently as you do and you'renot ready to throw out your
scale, go and put the scale inthe garage or a very high it's
hard to reach place just becauseyou got to get the ladder out
to get it.
It's such an inconvenience andthen you put it right back there
.
If you do ever use it that way,you kind of have the options.
But what you're talking aboutis environmental cues, creating
(23:48):
an environment that supports usto be healthier.
I was recently in America andone of the things I noticed is I
was in Utah, there were nosidewalks in the suburb that I
was walking in and it was soincredibly hard for me to go on
a safe walk with my childrenwhere the cars really rained the
roost and it just is a reminderof your environment so deeply
(24:10):
influences your ability to behealthy, the social determinants
of health, and being able tomodulate your physical
environment means you can kindof take away the importance, the
reliance on willpower right,and make it just a little bit
easier, a little bit gentler andkinder to yourself, yes, so
true, because willpower is afleeting resource.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
We don't have unlimited amounts of it, so it's
not a resource we can depend on.
So I love that our environmentdrives our behavior, so we can
create an environment that fuelsour healthy habits.
Oh, we make it so much easierfor ourselves.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Spot on.
I always think that relying onwillpower is like relying on
your cat to wake you up for animportant meeting.
Like it could happen, but itlike it probably won't.
And it's just like sure.
Let's think of better systems.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
That's just a really faulty system to rely upon.
I love this.
I used to say I describe it asthe friend who will ghost you.
Like they might go, but I likethe cat.
I'm going to use the catanalogy from now.
Do cats even wake people up?
Don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well, don't have a cat sometimes yes, but sometimes
no, and that's the conundrum wehave.
But yes, the ghosting friend,the, the unloyal friends,
because that's exactly what itis.
It makes you think that it canbe depended on and then when you
you really need it, it's gone,it's disappeared.
It's chatting up the guy at theat the bar and you're like dude
, we came together, I thoughtyou, I thought you, I thought
(25:30):
you had my back, but you did not.
And now you actually helppeople, teach other people about
habits.
So you're kind of like themaster, the habit master.
And can you tell me a littlebit about what you do with the
Habit Change Institute?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah, thank you, lindy.
I created the Habit ChangeInstitute because I felt like I
needed to clone myself.
I didn't have enough capacityto coach people one-on-one
because I do a lot of corporatework and a lot of like online
courses.
So the Institute was birthedout of this desire to impart
(26:05):
this knowledge that's generallyhidden behind paid walls and
medical journals and really hardto determine and decipher
medical research.
So I just distilled it all down, I made it really easy to
understand and implement and Icreated the Habit Practitioner
course and that's reallydesigned for health
professionals or coaches oreducators or anyone who works
(26:28):
with someone where behavior isinvolved, and it's a
self-directed online course.
I'm available anytime forquestions during that time and
there's also alumni training.
So there's ongoing trainingthat alumni will get forever,
essentially because habitresearch is always evolving and
there's a beautiful communityworldwide now of habit
(26:52):
practitioners and advancedpractitioners from every
continent, apart from Antarctica.
I'm yet to hit Antarctica, soif anyone's listening,
antarctica, come do my course.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
And so the ideal person to do your course would
be someone who's currently apractitioner already maybe a
coach or a personal trainer, a anutritionist, someone who's
already seeing clients.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Exactly.
Yeah, I've got school teachers,nurses, doctors, even like
health and safety managers whowant to help, like their staff
members be more safe around ayard.
It's really like anybody whoworks with somebody else.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Okay, I love this.
Thank you so much for joiningus on the podcast today.
Can I ask you if there was onething you wanted everyone to
know about habit formation,breaking habits, one tip you can
leave us with that you think'sa pearler.
What would it be?
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I think it's actually that you are not stuck with
your brain, that, no matterwhatever habits, whatever your
habits look like right now, theydon't have to look like that
tomorrow or the day after that.
You can design your lifeexactly how you want it to be
through consistent habit change,and it's all about consistency,
(28:08):
not intensity.
Start small really reallyreally small and know that you
can change any of your habits.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I'm such a fan of yours.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, thank
you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Thank you for having me.
Let's do coffee sometime.
Everyone, thank you.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode.
We'll see you next week.
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