September 26, 2025 • 29 mins
Funding challenges affect nonprofits of all sizes, but the solutions might surprise you. In this eye-opening conversation, Charlyn Moss, founder and CEO of Working Within, reveals how her journey from finance to nonprofit support showed her the critical gaps between grassroots organizations and their well-funded counterparts.
Moss challenges conventional nonprofit thinking with a provocative insight: trying to be everything to everyone actually makes your organization less attractive to funders. When you spread yourself too thin chasing various funding opportunities, you dilute your expertise and struggle to compete against organizations with deep specialization. The most successful nonprofits understand that going narrow first and broad later creates a stronger foundation for growth and impact.
Whether you're starting from scratch or reimagining your approach after funding changes, this conversation provides actionable insights to strengthen your organization's financial foundation. As Moss reminds us with her parting wisdom: funding challenges come in cycles, and "this too shall pass" for organizations willing to adapt thoughtfully.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Welcome back to the NonprofitHub Radio Podcast.
(00:25):
I'm your host, Megan Spear,joined today by Sharlyn Moss,
who's the founder and CEO ofWorking Within, Very excited to
dig into a conversation with herthat I don't think we've had on
the podcast yet this season,which is really exciting.
I'm thrilled to hear herperspective on a lot of these
things.
So, Sharlyn, welcome in.
Thank you, Megan.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, my pleasure.
(00:48):
So introduce yourself a littlebit to our audience.
What's your background innonprofit?
How did we get to thisconversation today?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I always take a deep breathbefore I tell this story,
because I basically stumbledinto this field after just
noticing a lot of tough thingsabout the funding world, and so
so I actually originally grew uploving math and thinking I was
going to be this big businessperson, and so I studied finance
and I went the banking routeand saw how corporate debt
worked really exciting stuff.
But I quickly realized I wantedto do something more purposeful,
(01:22):
and so that led me to kind offlipping the coin on its head
and saying let me go work withdifferent foundations and
nonprofit funders aftergraduating.
And so, yeah, to see kind ofbehind the scenes how different
funding decisions were made andespecially funding decisions for
like a really big proposals,hundreds of millions of dollars,
tens of millions of dollarsthat are going out the door to
(01:43):
nonprofits.
While that experience wasreally valuable for me, it
showed me just a kind of acapital, or it showed me an
access issue that I was noticingbetween grassroots nonprofit
leaders who are effectivelystarved for capital and trying
to raise all the time andseparate nonprofit leaders who
(02:04):
have access to these huge grantdollar opportunities from these
huge sources.
And so, while I observed thatpattern, it was disheartening in
one arena but also motivatingled me to do some pro bono grant
writing in 2022.
And then I got hired for acontract and then just kind of
(02:25):
built my firm from there.
So that's how I got intononprofit space, actually
starting from the funder sideand then trying to flip it
around and use that to supportthe nonprofit leaders I am
surrounded by here in Denver andthen across the country too.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I love it.
I am entirely the opposite,because I will do everything in
my power to avoid the math.
I just that is not the way thatI have been gifted.
I have.
I know that I have bring a lotof talents to the table.
If it has to do with numbers,that is not on the list.
Yeah, not on the list at all,that's wrong, I mean everybody,
(03:04):
yeah yeah, everybody has theirown skill set.
so I want to talk about thatfunding discrepancy that you
just mentioned right where wehave it's such a broken model,
yes, where we have these massiveorganizations that can access
all the funding and then some ofthe boots on the ground,
grassroots kind of local orgswho may not have access to that,
(03:26):
and that is actually who wehave a lot of in our audience is
the smaller nonprofit.
So I'd like to kind of take itfrom that perspective.
If someone is that grassrootsleader, they're leading an
organization that's hyperlocalor just starting, or maybe
they're having trouble taking itto that next level.
(03:47):
What are some of the mistakesthat you see or what are some of
the gaps that you see mostoften within that type of
organization, within those thatcommunity?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Two big ones come to mindimmediately.
And the first one you'veprobably heard with different
conversations that you've hadand discussed at length.
But the first thing I see and Ilove working with grassroots
leaders too, so I totally seethis is, I don't know, like a
tendency to mission creep, likethis wants this and this funder
(04:21):
wants that, and oh, there's atranche of funding from the feds
coming down for this, likeapprenticeship, you know, tech,
cybersecurity, I mean.
So just seeing differentorganizations try to stretch and
expand their missions to be allencompassing, when really that
can be something that limits,kind of how attractive you are
to a funder and also kind ofdilutes your expertise.
(04:43):
So maybe you started out asbeing this organization that
really wants to support foodaccess because you live in a
food desert and you have beengardening and you have
sustainability kind of elementswithin your programming.
But then there's another grantfor community wealth building
and then there's a grant forsomething environmental
solutions and research and then,and so over time, and probably
(05:06):
over the span of maybe a fewyears, that organization could
start to birth into somethingelse and be pulled from the kind
of route that it initiallystarted with.
And when that does happen, itdoes get harder to talk about
the organization, it gets harderto get people behind the
organization, and so it's alwaysgreat to go narrow first and
broad later.
It's the same in business too,right, yeah?
(05:27):
And then the second one wouldjust be sometimes you know a
fear around fundraising, and Iyou know there's a few ways it
could come from.
It could be a fear ofself-promotion or just feeling
like self-promotion is wrong.
It could also feel you couldhave an icky feeling around
asking for money, not you knowone person explicitly, but just
maybe culturally.
Or you know just kind of thosemindset barriers that can make
(05:51):
being a grassroots nonprofitleader more difficult.
You know, especially if you'rea little nervous to like
self-promote your organization,especially if it's in the early
stages, or even get those firstinvestments, because people want
to invest in things areconfident in, and so you've got
to be confident in those thingstoo.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
That's so good.
I want to go back to themission creep for a second,
because this is actually now thesecond time it's come up on the
podcast in the last couple ofmonths.
We had Matt Lombardi on acouple of months ago talking
about some of the lessons thatnonprofits can learn from the
for-profit side on running leanand starting small and growing
from there.
But I think you made aninteresting statement where you
(06:30):
said it actually makes you lessattractive to funders and I
think that goes againsteverything we would think.
Right, when we try to be allthings to all people, then
surely everyone's going to loveus because we are all things.
But you're saying no.
So expand on that a little bitfor me, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So I think that you know we're really starting.
We're starting to kind of buildon that topic, like you
mentioned, the similarities anddifferences between nonprofits
and businesses, because this isanother part when I and any of
us could take on and be superempathetic to the funder
perspective, probably getting alot of requests all year round,
probably know a lot oforganizations doing a lot of
similar work, and so when westart to empathize with the
(07:10):
funder perspective, they knowthe best in class for each focus
area community wealth, foodaccess, environmental concern,
climate.
They know who's operating as thecomplete expert in those fields
, or at least the top few.
If they come across a proposal,for example, that has an
organization doing five of thosefocus areas with no clear
(07:31):
advantage over those otherbigger players and it doesn't
even mean bigger in budget size,I just mean bigger in expertise
or in track record.
That creates a less competitiveapplication against the very
high competition that exists inthe nonprofit sector.
So I know competition and thecompetitive analysis and all
those words can be a little.
You know, maybe sometimes wedon't want to call people that,
(07:54):
we want to call themcollaborators, but ultimately
when we're going up for fundingconsiderations, like we are
competing with differentorganizations and so being broad
and not deep makes theorganization hard to stick out
in those different areas, and weall know funders like to fund
based on certain focus areas.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
That's so good.
So I'm in Pittsburgh, which hasa really amazing grant culture,
so many good organizations,foundations that are giving
grants out of Pittsburgh, givinggrants out of Pittsburgh.
But it does create, maybe, moreof a competitive atmosphere
(08:29):
where we look at some of thelike, well, I want to beat them,
I want to win out over them,right, it creates this
competitive nature betweennonprofits that, personally, has
always bugged me a little bit,because I think when we have
that sort of competition, itleads to less collaboration,
yeah, right.
And so I'm wondering, in themodel that you're talking about,
(08:51):
right, if I could just say I'man expertise, or I'm an expert
at this thing, but I'm going tocollaborate with the
organization down the streetthat is an expert at this thing
and we're going to work togetherto do both of the things.
Man, what could we do as aworld, right, if we could
(09:14):
embrace that collaboration ideaand understand that it really
does pay off to just stick inyour lane, not just from a
funding perspective, but just anevening collaboration.
I, oh, that would be a reallyexciting idea.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yes, no, you're exactly right.
And when you stay in your lane,it makes people want to
collaborate with you, likeyou're basically saying.
You know, it makes people wantto think oh, if I need a data
partner, let me go to thisorganization.
Oh, I need a youth programmingpartner, let me not try to
absorb youth programming, let mego to this partner.
We uh yeah that we have, withboth success and failure, tried
(09:44):
those paths because sometimesyou know you really have to
nurture partnerships and at thesame time, it'd be really
effective.
We literally just submittedsomething where, yeah, two
different organizations had tocome together because, I mean,
it's better to just not try todo it all.
It stretches your resourcesreally thin.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, I something that I would say.
Maybe the nonprofit hub radiolisteners are sick of hearing me
say, but I will say it again,this is the hill on which I will
die is that I think sometimesand with your background I'd
love your perspective Sometimeswe look at nonprofit and we
(10:22):
think that it that means weshould run our companies or run
our organizations a certain way.
But nonprofit is literally justa tax status.
It has no implication on thebottom line of how you run the
business.
And I would say, a lot of folksthat I have met who are
fantastic nonprofit leaders arelike me and they don't want,
like the money part, not theirstrongest suit, the budget, the
(10:45):
math, the just, not not ourforte.
So if that's the person rightwhen you're talking to folks,
how do you help them over thathurdle?
How do you?
What would you say to somebodywho is is thinking that the
actual business, acumen and allof those pieces don't
necessarily matter?
Right, because it's a nonprofit, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, I totally understand where you're coming
from and, again, like, we allhave our different strengths, so
, very valid, you gotta people,gotta someone's gotta be the
visionary, okay.
But you're right, and this issomething that we've run into a
few different ways, like as youcould imagine and how we like to
think about it.
We kind of turn the businessacumen on its head and call it
(11:31):
fundability.
What we are focused on withorganizations at all times is
maximizing your fundability,which is, in effect, running an
excellent business.
Right?
That's also fundability, or thedegree to which you can attract
and retain customers, basicallyin the business world.
And so when we break downfundability, it gives us the
room to be specific to nonprofitleaders without throwing just
(11:54):
trying to apply business on aseparate industry.
But it also allows us to embedsome of those business
principles.
For example, some of thefundability metrics we look at
are you big enough to havestaffing?
That will signal a lot aboutyour resources and your ability
to attract resources.
But also a more nonprofit kindof indicator that we'll look at
(12:15):
is like do you have a theory ofchange?
Are you tracking impact?
Do you have an impact report?
And those are things that abusiness doesn't do, and so we
try to mesh those differenttopics and also recognizing the
feedback we've all receivedprobably over the years from
different foundations and donorsand sponsors, meshing that
feedback all together, we try toreally evaluate for fundability
(12:36):
and that's kind of how we breakit down.
But it is not an overnight typeof thing.
It's a long-term conversationas well because there are a few
mindset shifts that are key tohave.
When you're thinking aboutrunning a, like you said, tax
designated nonprofitorganization Doesn't mean you
shouldn't have profit no profitat the end of the year, and that
requires some switch in mindsettoo.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah Well, and even that sentence that you just said
, I think, throws people for aloop sometimes, Like no, I'm not
supposed to make a profit, butyou still have to be sustainable
.
Right, those two things have togo hand in hand, and I'm
curious, in your opinion, whatare the other?
You know we were talking beforethe show some of those other
(13:16):
pieces around debt or lines ofcredit that maybe are new to
nonprofit leaders in terms ofhow they function and how they
understand the business side ofwhat they're doing.
So I'd love to hear your takeon some of those things too.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because, yeah, from a businessperspective, it's pretty
normalized to pull on debt, likewhether it's a credit card or a
small loan or a big loan orsomething else, and it's pretty
common We'll hear about to takeon equity, we'll hear about
venture capital, angel investors, things like that.
(13:50):
We don't need to get deep intothat, but that is typical in the
business world because werecognize we're building and we
have to prove ourselves, and sothere's a cost to get money
before we can prove ourselves.
And the nonprofit world it doesget a bit different, because
the funding sources aredifferent and in many ways nicer
, but not without their ownchallenges.
(14:13):
Right, okay, we can get grantfunding, but again, sometimes
you know grants aren't going tocome to a fresh organization.
Right, we have to proveourselves.
We can get individuals andsponsors, but those again will
likely rely on earlier alreadyhad relationships and or won't
suffice to create an annualbudget.
(14:33):
You need to run somethingsustainably, and so I am a
staunch advocate for exploringother financing and funding
options, especially in the earlystages, because debt, really,
you know, to me taking out debt,just like in business, just
means that you believe in whatyou're doing and that you
believe it will generate apositive benefit for everyone
involved, which means you willattract dollars in the future.
(14:55):
That's all debt is, and it'sjust making that early
commitment.
And so, speaking as a businessowner who has taken out debt
since and I've talked todifferent nonprofit leaders
about this that there is ahesitancy around you know,
around being able to use a loanor a line of credit to grow your
(15:15):
impact, whether that's forhires that help you serve more
students or access moreneighborhoods.
There is a general resistancearound that and I want to do my
part in helping to advocateresponsibly about the
possibility that debt, inaddition to your other
traditional fundraising methods,can create for your
organization, because if you'rereally accountable to that debt,
it can honestly unlock a wholeanother level of growth in kind
(15:38):
of your nonprofit leader journey, because you will adopt that
business acumen quicker because,again, that debt is online.
So I think it's a unique tool.
It's not for everyone, butthere are cases where I think it
absolutely could make sense,and so that's my, that's my.
What is it?
Oh, my gosh, my pedestal.
Yeah, that's my life.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, your little soapbox.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yes, that is my soapbox on that.
I'm very passionate about it.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
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I think that's one of thosethings that it is a common
(16:55):
business practice, but I feellike there's a tendency within
the nonprofit space to not.
We don't want to be toocorporate, we don't want to be
too, you know, in the marketsand all of those things, because
that feels riskier.
Right?
I'm wondering, as you areworking with your clients at
working within, do you seepushback on that?
(17:17):
Is it something that people areembracing?
What's the kind of mentalitythat you see around it right now
?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
yeah, so I have seen both okay.
So here's the thing I thinkdebt works for folks who want to
stay with their organizationfor a long time and are
absolutely counting on itgrowing and have seen growth.
I think these conversationsstop short with leaders who
might be ready to transition outof their organization, who
might be tired, who just mightbe kind of just having endured
(17:46):
already enough, and so there aredefinitely two, be kind of just
, you know, having enduredalready enough, and so there are
definitely two different kindof senses of mindset that are
resonating or not with thisapproach.
But just as an example, youknow, the type of leader who's
excited about something likethat is, yeah, trying to grow
the space he can use to hostprogramming and he's seen year
over year growth in hisorganization, and so those types
(18:08):
of conversations go really well.
And as I talk to him I get moreand more feedback and I'm kind
of just playing like whatliaison between all these folks
to see what could work.
And then there's conversationswhere it's like, oh, it's my
board trying to convince myboard about debt.
My board, who may not even be,have run a nonprofit before,
kind of have that experience.
(18:29):
Those conversations can getchallenging.
So I've seen and heard pushbackfrom both nonprofit leaders and
funders who mentioned the boardbeing an important and
sometimes more resistant piecethan even the nonprofit leader
themselves.
So that's how the conversationsare going, but I think
ultimately there is a huge needright now and urgency around
creating new funding streamsbecause, as we know, the federal
(18:50):
landscape of funding hastotally been decimated, and so
there is an absolute need to becreative about this.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, that is for sure.
It has definitely been aninteresting year.
We've seen a number of folkswho are from organizations that
have been traditionally grantfunded, who have been coming to
do non-profit hub courses andclasses and webinars because
they've never had to host afundraiser before, they've never
had to build a monthly giverprogram, they've never done a
(19:16):
major gifts program.
There's all these things thathave never, have never had to
happen because they relied onthe grant money for so long.
Uh, we're, yeah, have a wholeseries on kind of back to basics
for a lot of those pieces.
So I'm curious, I'd like to, I'mgoing to ask you a question.
I'd like you to answer it intwo ways, if you will.
(19:37):
One, if we're speaking to maybethat startup, grassroots,
non-profit, starting out fromthe jump, and two, to that same
audience of we've always hadgrant funding.
We've never had to really thinkabout it, and now we're
expanding the program that way.
But I'm curious is theresomething that you see as maybe
(20:02):
the first step of best practicewhen we're talking about funding
or when we're talking aboutfiguring out our strategy, even
just around finances in general?
Is there something that you seeas the best practice of?
Like this is how we start toget it moving in the right
direction, and is it differentfor those two groups?
(20:22):
Maybe it's the same answer.
I'll leave that to you, but I'mcurious your thoughts on that.
Ooh, yeah, so this is.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
You know I get pushback on this sometimes, but
it is the same answer for bothgroups and one might have it
already, they just need torevisit and the other might need
to create it, but it's the samething.
And so the first step whenyou're looking to diversify
revenue streams or start them,we want to make sure that you've
got a really clear theory ofchange.
And I'm sure it's beendiscussed or talked about.
(20:51):
You may have heard logic modelor you may have heard theory of
action.
You know reasonably the samething with minor differences,
but the theory of change foreach organization and nonprofit
is the same as a business'sreason to exist.
And if that theory of changedoesn't make sense and it can't
show the line of benefit you'reproviding, that leads to no
(21:12):
dollars.
Same way, a business with noreason to exist leads to no
dollars.
And so, with the theory ofchange, really simply that's a
four-part kind of graphic youcan create, and here are the
four parts that are reallyimportant, just to gut check and
make sure what you're doing isgoing to be seen as valuable by
someone else enough to givedollars.
I want to make sure there's aclear problem that's being
(21:33):
solved with data and so thatdata might be local, or if it's
not a national organization, orif it's a tiny neighborhood that
you're wanting to serve andstart an organization in.
Whatever data you have and theproblem that you say you're
addressing, we have to make sureit's documented somewhere and
that we're not only using ourown experience to code what
(21:55):
we're doing as an organization.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Oh, that's so critical, so critical, that's so
critical.
Just say the sentence again onemore time, because so often we
do, live we base like.
This has been my personalexperience.
So I'm going to start anon-profit that fixes this
problem, but no one else ishaving that problem.
Yep, oh, say it again.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
yes, you said it.
I mean that's it right.
Like we all feel things andhave challenges.
Of course, sure, the problem isthere with the data right yes,
yeah, yeah, we always start withthat, regardless of where
you're at, and then from thereyou know we're looking at.
What outcomes are you workingtoward long term?
(22:39):
Your vision statement does itconnect to this problem you just
named?
So that outcome that you'repursuing, that problem statement
, outcome are two ends of yourgraphic.
In between you've got youractivities that address that
problem and your outputs, yourshortterm outcomes of those
activities.
So maybe the people you serve,their short-term results and
leading to that outcome wementioned.
So four-part kind of graphicthat you're building and then
(23:01):
you'll start to see how manyproblems am I trying to solve
and typically it's not just one.
And again, that's a problem thatreally burdens the nonprofit
sector, which again makes ithard to be the expert in your
area.
So that's step number one,because once you know that those
kind of the problem statementsyou're addressing, the outcome,
(23:24):
long-term outcomes, youractivities, your outputs, then
you'll be able to know who wantsto support that work, whether
it's a foundation, a corporation, a certain group of individuals
, a certain major gift person.
What type of fundraising eventmakes sense, who might want to
partner with you and go in eventmakes sense, who might want to
partner with you and go in onthings together, who might want
to buy what you sell in youractivities.
And so that's what we do first,so that we can all be on the
(23:45):
same page, because typically,again, that is assumed but not
documented clearly for large andearly organizations, yeah.
And then from there you're ableto kind of look at the market I
say in quotes, because you cansee what opportunities are
available, build your strategyfor fundraising that way, rather
than just setting a goal andhoping to hit it right.
We always look at the marketfirst and say what's reasonable
(24:08):
and what timeframe to make surewe're creating a budget that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
So good?
I you're right it is.
I think I would have assumed itwas this a different answer for
both groups.
But when we break it down tothat solid foundation, you know,
maybe your funding is not whatit used to be.
So you've got to come back tothat root of like who are we
serving, what are we trying todo and how do we look at the
(24:35):
landscape and be a part of it?
In this season which, oh, thatcan be such, that can be so hard
, especially if you're used tolike the money just comes in
because we have this grant.
Exactly having to reevaluate isa is almost tougher than
starting from scratch and beingthat grassroots boots on the
(24:56):
ground kind of bootstrappingleader right now.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yes, especially if you've just been slowly
expanding over time and you'relike, oh wow, why are we here?
You know, and business ownersdo the same thing, right, so
it's just all of us who areparticipating in this market
like that.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I love it.
Charlene, I'm curious aboutworking within.
Tell me a little bit about thecompany and the type of work you
do in the organizations thatyou work with.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah Well, we operate like an agency and we come in
as fractional developmentofficers for different nonprofit
clients.
We love working with thegrassroots organizations, so
that is not a fake bias.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
We have yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Again, because we know that those are where the
big gaps are.
So we're looking to.
You know, we work with folkswho have under two and a half
million dollars operatingthey're running with, because
that's when the diversificationof revenue can be really
important and accelerate things.
We work with leaders whorepresent the communities they
serve.
A lot of our clients have beenin Denver, but we've worked with
clients in St Louis and Durham,North Carolina.
(26:01):
So we're slowly spreadingbecause a lot of these problems,
as we probably all areresonating, are just existing
all across the country andprobably the world.
Right, we just haven't gottenthere.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I know we would all love to think that we are the
special little unicorn and noone has ever faced the same
problem that we are having.
It is just not.
That's just not real.
It's just.
We're all in it together.
Everyone is having the sameproblem.
I promise you are not alone.
Yes, especially now.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
So, yes, that is who we love working with, folks who
are passionate and right andgrowing, you know, and who are
willing to learn and adapt andjust feel like there's a level
that they can hit but haven'tyet in terms of just opening up
the revenue doors for theorganization and seeing what
they can do.
So, yeah, we are, we are I wasgoing to say industry agnostic,
but you know there's no.
(26:48):
What's the term profit world?
We don't have a certain focusarea for nonprofits because,
yeah, Multi-vertical.
Yeah, multi-vertical.
There you go Revenue Right andfor, yeah, there's, it's similar
, it's similar for all of them.
So, yeah, that's what we do.
Yeah, we've raised, we arecounting, we are at $1.3 million
(27:09):
.
We're almost three years inbusiness.
So, yeah, we're just growingand yeah, it's been a journey.
We've learned a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's especially in this industry
right now.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
There is always something new to learn.
Yes, always there, always willbe too.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah, that's great.
So, as we wrap up, the questionthat I've been asking everybody
in this season of the podcastis if you could give one piece
of wisdom or encouragement orinsight to nonprofit leaders
right now.
What would that be?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, you know, my first response to that question
is this too shall pass.
Yes, yeah, I was speaking witha foundation executive in
another state and he, you knowmore seasoned, was saying this
has happened before, not in thisexact way, but this is this
(28:04):
happens, just like things happenin other sectors, and you will
recover and it's, you know, justhelping us all to evolve as we
need to.
And so this too shall pass.
It's a period, but it's not,you know, eternity.
So good, I love that word.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Well, charlene, thank you so much for being here
today.
This was a really greatconversation and a look at the
finance side that we have nothad on the podcast before, so I
really appreciated theconversation and the insights.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Oh well, thank you for having me, megan.
Yeah, great conversation.
I'm so excited for what you'redoing at Nonprofit Hub.
Yeah, just keep it up.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Very good.
Thank you so much Again.
My guest has been Sharlyn Moss,who's the founder and CEO of
Working Within, and we'll linkthe website for Working Within
in the show notes, so make sureyou go check that out.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Radio
Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
Non-profits.
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making an impact?
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Welcome back to the NonprofitHub Radio Podcast.
(00:25):
I'm your host, Megan Spear,joined today by Sharlyn Moss,
who's the founder and CEO ofWorking Within, Very excited to
dig into a conversation with herthat I don't think we've had on
the podcast yet this season,which is really exciting.
I'm thrilled to hear herperspective on a lot of these
things.
So, Sharlyn, welcome in.
Thank you, Megan.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, my pleasure.
(00:48):
So introduce yourself a littlebit to our audience.
What's your background innonprofit?
How did we get to thisconversation today?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I always take a deep breathbefore I tell this story,
because I basically stumbledinto this field after just
noticing a lot of tough thingsabout the funding world, and so
so I actually originally grew uploving math and thinking I was
going to be this big businessperson, and so I studied finance
and I went the banking routeand saw how corporate debt
worked really exciting stuff.
But I quickly realized I wantedto do something more purposeful,
(01:22):
and so that led me to kind offlipping the coin on its head
and saying let me go work withdifferent foundations and
nonprofit funders aftergraduating.
And so, yeah, to see kind ofbehind the scenes how different
funding decisions were made andespecially funding decisions for
like a really big proposals,hundreds of millions of dollars,
tens of millions of dollarsthat are going out the door to
(01:43):
nonprofits.
While that experience wasreally valuable for me, it
showed me just a kind of acapital, or it showed me an
access issue that I was noticingbetween grassroots nonprofit
leaders who are effectivelystarved for capital and trying
to raise all the time andseparate nonprofit leaders who
(02:04):
have access to these huge grantdollar opportunities from these
huge sources.
And so, while I observed thatpattern, it was disheartening in
one arena but also motivatingled me to do some pro bono grant
writing in 2022.
And then I got hired for acontract and then just kind of
(02:25):
built my firm from there.
So that's how I got intononprofit space, actually
starting from the funder sideand then trying to flip it
around and use that to supportthe nonprofit leaders I am
surrounded by here in Denver andthen across the country too.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I love it.
I am entirely the opposite,because I will do everything in
my power to avoid the math.
I just that is not the way thatI have been gifted.
I have.
I know that I have bring a lotof talents to the table.
If it has to do with numbers,that is not on the list.
Yeah, not on the list at all,that's wrong, I mean everybody,
(03:04):
yeah yeah, everybody has theirown skill set.
so I want to talk about thatfunding discrepancy that you
just mentioned right where wehave it's such a broken model,
yes, where we have these massiveorganizations that can access
all the funding and then some ofthe boots on the ground,
grassroots kind of local orgswho may not have access to that,
(03:26):
and that is actually who wehave a lot of in our audience is
the smaller nonprofit.
So I'd like to kind of take itfrom that perspective.
If someone is that grassrootsleader, they're leading an
organization that's hyperlocalor just starting, or maybe
they're having trouble taking itto that next level.
(03:47):
What are some of the mistakesthat you see or what are some of
the gaps that you see mostoften within that type of
organization, within those thatcommunity?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Two big ones come to mindimmediately.
And the first one you'veprobably heard with different
conversations that you've hadand discussed at length.
But the first thing I see and Ilove working with grassroots
leaders too, so I totally seethis is, I don't know, like a
tendency to mission creep, likethis wants this and this funder
(04:21):
wants that, and oh, there's atranche of funding from the feds
coming down for this, likeapprenticeship, you know, tech,
cybersecurity, I mean.
So just seeing differentorganizations try to stretch and
expand their missions to be allencompassing, when really that
can be something that limits,kind of how attractive you are
to a funder and also kind ofdilutes your expertise.
(04:43):
So maybe you started out asbeing this organization that
really wants to support foodaccess because you live in a
food desert and you have beengardening and you have
sustainability kind of elementswithin your programming.
But then there's another grantfor community wealth building
and then there's a grant forsomething environmental
solutions and research and then,and so over time, and probably
(05:06):
over the span of maybe a fewyears, that organization could
start to birth into somethingelse and be pulled from the kind
of route that it initiallystarted with.
And when that does happen, itdoes get harder to talk about
the organization, it gets harderto get people behind the
organization, and so it's alwaysgreat to go narrow first and
broad later.
It's the same in business too,right, yeah?
(05:27):
And then the second one wouldjust be sometimes you know a
fear around fundraising, and Iyou know there's a few ways it
could come from.
It could be a fear ofself-promotion or just feeling
like self-promotion is wrong.
It could also feel you couldhave an icky feeling around
asking for money, not you knowone person explicitly, but just
maybe culturally.
Or you know just kind of thosemindset barriers that can make
(05:51):
being a grassroots nonprofitleader more difficult.
You know, especially if you'rea little nervous to like
self-promote your organization,especially if it's in the early
stages, or even get those firstinvestments, because people want
to invest in things areconfident in, and so you've got
to be confident in those thingstoo.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
That's so good.
I want to go back to themission creep for a second,
because this is actually now thesecond time it's come up on the
podcast in the last couple ofmonths.
We had Matt Lombardi on acouple of months ago talking
about some of the lessons thatnonprofits can learn from the
for-profit side on running leanand starting small and growing
from there.
But I think you made aninteresting statement where you
(06:30):
said it actually makes you lessattractive to funders and I
think that goes againsteverything we would think.
Right, when we try to be allthings to all people, then
surely everyone's going to loveus because we are all things.
But you're saying no.
So expand on that a little bitfor me, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So I think that you know we're really starting.
We're starting to kind of buildon that topic, like you
mentioned, the similarities anddifferences between nonprofits
and businesses, because this isanother part when I and any of
us could take on and be superempathetic to the funder
perspective, probably getting alot of requests all year round,
probably know a lot oforganizations doing a lot of
similar work, and so when westart to empathize with the
(07:10):
funder perspective, they knowthe best in class for each focus
area community wealth, foodaccess, environmental concern,
climate.
They know who's operating as thecomplete expert in those fields
, or at least the top few.
If they come across a proposal,for example, that has an
organization doing five of thosefocus areas with no clear
(07:31):
advantage over those otherbigger players and it doesn't
even mean bigger in budget size,I just mean bigger in expertise
or in track record.
That creates a less competitiveapplication against the very
high competition that exists inthe nonprofit sector.
So I know competition and thecompetitive analysis and all
those words can be a little.
You know, maybe sometimes wedon't want to call people that,
(07:54):
we want to call themcollaborators, but ultimately
when we're going up for fundingconsiderations, like we are
competing with differentorganizations and so being broad
and not deep makes theorganization hard to stick out
in those different areas, and weall know funders like to fund
based on certain focus areas.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
That's so good.
So I'm in Pittsburgh, which hasa really amazing grant culture,
so many good organizations,foundations that are giving
grants out of Pittsburgh, givinggrants out of Pittsburgh.
But it does create, maybe, moreof a competitive atmosphere
(08:29):
where we look at some of thelike, well, I want to beat them,
I want to win out over them,right, it creates this
competitive nature betweennonprofits that, personally, has
always bugged me a little bit,because I think when we have
that sort of competition, itleads to less collaboration,
yeah, right.
And so I'm wondering, in themodel that you're talking about,
(08:51):
right, if I could just say I'man expertise, or I'm an expert
at this thing, but I'm going tocollaborate with the
organization down the streetthat is an expert at this thing
and we're going to work togetherto do both of the things.
Man, what could we do as aworld, right, if we could
(09:14):
embrace that collaboration ideaand understand that it really
does pay off to just stick inyour lane, not just from a
funding perspective, but just anevening collaboration.
I, oh, that would be a reallyexciting idea.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yes, no, you're exactly right.
And when you stay in your lane,it makes people want to
collaborate with you, likeyou're basically saying.
You know, it makes people wantto think oh, if I need a data
partner, let me go to thisorganization.
Oh, I need a youth programmingpartner, let me not try to
absorb youth programming, let mego to this partner.
We uh yeah that we have, withboth success and failure, tried
(09:44):
those paths because sometimesyou know you really have to
nurture partnerships and at thesame time, it'd be really
effective.
We literally just submittedsomething where, yeah, two
different organizations had tocome together because, I mean,
it's better to just not try todo it all.
It stretches your resourcesreally thin.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, I something that I would say.
Maybe the nonprofit hub radiolisteners are sick of hearing me
say, but I will say it again,this is the hill on which I will
die is that I think sometimesand with your background I'd
love your perspective Sometimeswe look at nonprofit and we
(10:22):
think that it that means weshould run our companies or run
our organizations a certain way.
But nonprofit is literally justa tax status.
It has no implication on thebottom line of how you run the
business.
And I would say, a lot of folksthat I have met who are
fantastic nonprofit leaders arelike me and they don't want,
like the money part, not theirstrongest suit, the budget, the
(10:45):
math, the just, not not ourforte.
So if that's the person rightwhen you're talking to folks,
how do you help them over thathurdle?
How do you?
What would you say to somebodywho is is thinking that the
actual business, acumen and allof those pieces don't
necessarily matter?
Right, because it's a nonprofit, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, I totally understand where you're coming
from and, again, like, we allhave our different strengths, so
, very valid, you gotta people,gotta someone's gotta be the
visionary, okay.
But you're right, and this issomething that we've run into a
few different ways, like as youcould imagine and how we like to
think about it.
We kind of turn the businessacumen on its head and call it
(11:31):
fundability.
What we are focused on withorganizations at all times is
maximizing your fundability,which is, in effect, running an
excellent business.
Right?
That's also fundability, or thedegree to which you can attract
and retain customers, basicallyin the business world.
And so when we break downfundability, it gives us the
room to be specific to nonprofitleaders without throwing just
(11:54):
trying to apply business on aseparate industry.
But it also allows us to embedsome of those business
principles.
For example, some of thefundability metrics we look at
are you big enough to havestaffing?
That will signal a lot aboutyour resources and your ability
to attract resources.
But also a more nonprofit kindof indicator that we'll look at
(12:15):
is like do you have a theory ofchange?
Are you tracking impact?
Do you have an impact report?
And those are things that abusiness doesn't do, and so we
try to mesh those differenttopics and also recognizing the
feedback we've all receivedprobably over the years from
different foundations and donorsand sponsors, meshing that
feedback all together, we try toreally evaluate for fundability
(12:36):
and that's kind of how we breakit down.
But it is not an overnight typeof thing.
It's a long-term conversationas well because there are a few
mindset shifts that are key tohave.
When you're thinking aboutrunning a, like you said, tax
designated nonprofitorganization Doesn't mean you
shouldn't have profit no profitat the end of the year, and that
requires some switch in mindsettoo.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah Well, and even that sentence that you just said
, I think, throws people for aloop sometimes, Like no, I'm not
supposed to make a profit, butyou still have to be sustainable
.
Right, those two things have togo hand in hand, and I'm
curious, in your opinion, whatare the other?
You know we were talking beforethe show some of those other
(13:16):
pieces around debt or lines ofcredit that maybe are new to
nonprofit leaders in terms ofhow they function and how they
understand the business side ofwhat they're doing.
So I'd love to hear your takeon some of those things too.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because, yeah, from a businessperspective, it's pretty
normalized to pull on debt, likewhether it's a credit card or a
small loan or a big loan orsomething else, and it's pretty
common We'll hear about to takeon equity, we'll hear about
venture capital, angel investors, things like that.
(13:50):
We don't need to get deep intothat, but that is typical in the
business world because werecognize we're building and we
have to prove ourselves, and sothere's a cost to get money
before we can prove ourselves.
And the nonprofit world it doesget a bit different, because
the funding sources aredifferent and in many ways nicer
, but not without their ownchallenges.
(14:13):
Right, okay, we can get grantfunding, but again, sometimes
you know grants aren't going tocome to a fresh organization.
Right, we have to proveourselves.
We can get individuals andsponsors, but those again will
likely rely on earlier alreadyhad relationships and or won't
suffice to create an annualbudget.
(14:33):
You need to run somethingsustainably, and so I am a
staunch advocate for exploringother financing and funding
options, especially in the earlystages, because debt, really,
you know, to me taking out debt,just like in business, just
means that you believe in whatyou're doing and that you
believe it will generate apositive benefit for everyone
involved, which means you willattract dollars in the future.
(14:55):
That's all debt is, and it'sjust making that early
commitment.
And so, speaking as a businessowner who has taken out debt
since and I've talked todifferent nonprofit leaders
about this that there is ahesitancy around you know,
around being able to use a loanor a line of credit to grow your
(15:15):
impact, whether that's forhires that help you serve more
students or access moreneighborhoods.
There is a general resistancearound that and I want to do my
part in helping to advocateresponsibly about the
possibility that debt, inaddition to your other
traditional fundraising methods,can create for your
organization, because if you'rereally accountable to that debt,
it can honestly unlock a wholeanother level of growth in kind
(15:38):
of your nonprofit leader journey, because you will adopt that
business acumen quicker because,again, that debt is online.
So I think it's a unique tool.
It's not for everyone, butthere are cases where I think it
absolutely could make sense,and so that's my, that's my.
What is it?
Oh, my gosh, my pedestal.
Yeah, that's my life.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, your little soapbox.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yes, that is my soapbox on that.
I'm very passionate about it.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
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I think that's one of thosethings that it is a common
(16:55):
business practice, but I feellike there's a tendency within
the nonprofit space to not.
We don't want to be toocorporate, we don't want to be
too, you know, in the marketsand all of those things, because
that feels riskier.
Right?
I'm wondering, as you areworking with your clients at
working within, do you seepushback on that?
(17:17):
Is it something that people areembracing?
What's the kind of mentalitythat you see around it right now
?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
yeah, so I have seen both okay.
So here's the thing I thinkdebt works for folks who want to
stay with their organizationfor a long time and are
absolutely counting on itgrowing and have seen growth.
I think these conversationsstop short with leaders who
might be ready to transition outof their organization, who
might be tired, who just mightbe kind of just having endured
(17:46):
already enough, and so there aredefinitely two, be kind of just
, you know, having enduredalready enough, and so there are
definitely two different kindof senses of mindset that are
resonating or not with thisapproach.
But just as an example, youknow, the type of leader who's
excited about something likethat is, yeah, trying to grow
the space he can use to hostprogramming and he's seen year
over year growth in hisorganization, and so those types
(18:08):
of conversations go really well.
And as I talk to him I get moreand more feedback and I'm kind
of just playing like whatliaison between all these folks
to see what could work.
And then there's conversationswhere it's like, oh, it's my
board trying to convince myboard about debt.
My board, who may not even be,have run a nonprofit before,
kind of have that experience.
(18:29):
Those conversations can getchallenging.
So I've seen and heard pushbackfrom both nonprofit leaders and
funders who mentioned the boardbeing an important and
sometimes more resistant piecethan even the nonprofit leader
themselves.
So that's how the conversationsare going, but I think
ultimately there is a huge needright now and urgency around
creating new funding streamsbecause, as we know, the federal
(18:50):
landscape of funding hastotally been decimated, and so
there is an absolute need to becreative about this.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, that is for sure.
It has definitely been aninteresting year.
We've seen a number of folkswho are from organizations that
have been traditionally grantfunded, who have been coming to
do non-profit hub courses andclasses and webinars because
they've never had to host afundraiser before, they've never
had to build a monthly giverprogram, they've never done a
(19:16):
major gifts program.
There's all these things thathave never, have never had to
happen because they relied onthe grant money for so long.
Uh, we're, yeah, have a wholeseries on kind of back to basics
for a lot of those pieces.
So I'm curious, I'd like to, I'mgoing to ask you a question.
I'd like you to answer it intwo ways, if you will.
(19:37):
One, if we're speaking to maybethat startup, grassroots,
non-profit, starting out fromthe jump, and two, to that same
audience of we've always hadgrant funding.
We've never had to really thinkabout it, and now we're
expanding the program that way.
But I'm curious is theresomething that you see as maybe
(20:02):
the first step of best practicewhen we're talking about funding
or when we're talking aboutfiguring out our strategy, even
just around finances in general?
Is there something that you seeas the best practice of?
Like this is how we start toget it moving in the right
direction, and is it differentfor those two groups?
(20:22):
Maybe it's the same answer.
I'll leave that to you, but I'mcurious your thoughts on that.
Ooh, yeah, so this is.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
You know I get pushback on this sometimes, but
it is the same answer for bothgroups and one might have it
already, they just need torevisit and the other might need
to create it, but it's the samething.
And so the first step whenyou're looking to diversify
revenue streams or start them,we want to make sure that you've
got a really clear theory ofchange.
And I'm sure it's beendiscussed or talked about.
(20:51):
You may have heard logic modelor you may have heard theory of
action.
You know reasonably the samething with minor differences,
but the theory of change foreach organization and nonprofit
is the same as a business'sreason to exist.
And if that theory of changedoesn't make sense and it can't
show the line of benefit you'reproviding, that leads to no
(21:12):
dollars.
Same way, a business with noreason to exist leads to no
dollars.
And so, with the theory ofchange, really simply that's a
four-part kind of graphic youcan create, and here are the
four parts that are reallyimportant, just to gut check and
make sure what you're doing isgoing to be seen as valuable by
someone else enough to givedollars.
I want to make sure there's aclear problem that's being
(21:33):
solved with data and so thatdata might be local, or if it's
not a national organization, orif it's a tiny neighborhood that
you're wanting to serve andstart an organization in.
Whatever data you have and theproblem that you say you're
addressing, we have to make sureit's documented somewhere and
that we're not only using ourown experience to code what
(21:55):
we're doing as an organization.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Oh, that's so critical, so critical, that's so
critical.
Just say the sentence again onemore time, because so often we
do, live we base like.
This has been my personalexperience.
So I'm going to start anon-profit that fixes this
problem, but no one else ishaving that problem.
Yep, oh, say it again.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
yes, you said it.
I mean that's it right.
Like we all feel things andhave challenges.
Of course, sure, the problem isthere with the data right yes,
yeah, yeah, we always start withthat, regardless of where
you're at, and then from thereyou know we're looking at.
What outcomes are you workingtoward long term?
(22:39):
Your vision statement does itconnect to this problem you just
named?
So that outcome that you'repursuing, that problem statement
, outcome are two ends of yourgraphic.
In between you've got youractivities that address that
problem and your outputs, yourshortterm outcomes of those
activities.
So maybe the people you serve,their short-term results and
leading to that outcome wementioned.
So four-part kind of graphicthat you're building and then
(23:01):
you'll start to see how manyproblems am I trying to solve
and typically it's not just one.
And again, that's a problem thatreally burdens the nonprofit
sector, which again makes ithard to be the expert in your
area.
So that's step number one,because once you know that those
kind of the problem statementsyou're addressing, the outcome,
(23:24):
long-term outcomes, youractivities, your outputs, then
you'll be able to know who wantsto support that work, whether
it's a foundation, a corporation, a certain group of individuals
, a certain major gift person.
What type of fundraising eventmakes sense, who might want to
partner with you and go in eventmakes sense, who might want to
partner with you and go in onthings together, who might want
to buy what you sell in youractivities.
And so that's what we do first,so that we can all be on the
(23:45):
same page, because typically,again, that is assumed but not
documented clearly for large andearly organizations, yeah.
And then from there you're ableto kind of look at the market I
say in quotes, because you cansee what opportunities are
available, build your strategyfor fundraising that way, rather
than just setting a goal andhoping to hit it right.
We always look at the marketfirst and say what's reasonable
(24:08):
and what timeframe to make surewe're creating a budget that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
So good?
I you're right it is.
I think I would have assumed itwas this a different answer for
both groups.
But when we break it down tothat solid foundation, you know,
maybe your funding is not whatit used to be.
So you've got to come back tothat root of like who are we
serving, what are we trying todo and how do we look at the
(24:35):
landscape and be a part of it?
In this season which, oh, thatcan be such, that can be so hard
, especially if you're used tolike the money just comes in
because we have this grant.
Exactly having to reevaluate isa is almost tougher than
starting from scratch and beingthat grassroots boots on the
(24:56):
ground kind of bootstrappingleader right now.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yes, especially if you've just been slowly
expanding over time and you'relike, oh wow, why are we here?
You know, and business ownersdo the same thing, right, so
it's just all of us who areparticipating in this market
like that.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I love it.
Charlene, I'm curious aboutworking within.
Tell me a little bit about thecompany and the type of work you
do in the organizations thatyou work with.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah Well, we operate like an agency and we come in
as fractional developmentofficers for different nonprofit
clients.
We love working with thegrassroots organizations, so
that is not a fake bias.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
We have yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Again, because we know that those are where the
big gaps are.
So we're looking to.
You know, we work with folkswho have under two and a half
million dollars operatingthey're running with, because
that's when the diversificationof revenue can be really
important and accelerate things.
We work with leaders whorepresent the communities they
serve.
A lot of our clients have beenin Denver, but we've worked with
clients in St Louis and Durham,North Carolina.
(26:01):
So we're slowly spreadingbecause a lot of these problems,
as we probably all areresonating, are just existing
all across the country andprobably the world.
Right, we just haven't gottenthere.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I know we would all love to think that we are the
special little unicorn and noone has ever faced the same
problem that we are having.
It is just not.
That's just not real.
It's just.
We're all in it together.
Everyone is having the sameproblem.
I promise you are not alone.
Yes, especially now.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
So, yes, that is who we love working with, folks who
are passionate and right andgrowing, you know, and who are
willing to learn and adapt andjust feel like there's a level
that they can hit but haven'tyet in terms of just opening up
the revenue doors for theorganization and seeing what
they can do.
So, yeah, we are, we are I wasgoing to say industry agnostic,
but you know there's no.
(26:48):
What's the term profit world?
We don't have a certain focusarea for nonprofits because,
yeah, Multi-vertical.
Yeah, multi-vertical.
There you go Revenue Right andfor, yeah, there's, it's similar
, it's similar for all of them.
So, yeah, that's what we do.
Yeah, we've raised, we arecounting, we are at $1.3 million
(27:09):
.
We're almost three years inbusiness.
So, yeah, we're just growingand yeah, it's been a journey.
We've learned a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's especially in this industry
right now.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
There is always something new to learn.
Yes, always there, always willbe too.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah, that's great.
So, as we wrap up, the questionthat I've been asking everybody
in this season of the podcastis if you could give one piece
of wisdom or encouragement orinsight to nonprofit leaders
right now.
What would that be?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, you know, my first response to that question
is this too shall pass.
Yes, yeah, I was speaking witha foundation executive in
another state and he, you knowmore seasoned, was saying this
has happened before, not in thisexact way, but this is this
(28:04):
happens, just like things happenin other sectors, and you will
recover and it's, you know, justhelping us all to evolve as we
need to.
And so this too shall pass.
It's a period, but it's not,you know, eternity.
So good, I love that word.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Well, charlene, thank you so much for being here
today.
This was a really greatconversation and a look at the
finance side that we have nothad on the podcast before, so I
really appreciated theconversation and the insights.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Oh well, thank you for having me, megan.
Yeah, great conversation.
I'm so excited for what you'redoing at Nonprofit Hub.
Yeah, just keep it up.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Very good.
Thank you so much Again.
My guest has been Sharlyn Moss,who's the founder and CEO of
Working Within, and we'll linkthe website for Working Within
in the show notes, so make sureyou go check that out.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Radio
Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
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