August 8, 2024 • 52 mins
Let’s explore the complexities of living in polyamorous relationships with relationship coach Laura Boyle, author of Monogamy? In this Economy?Finances, Childrearing, and Other Practical Concerns of Polyamory. We discuss the challenges and triumphs of shared living, finances, and parenting in multi-partner households.
From cohabitation logistics and financial planning to co-parenting strategies and managing breakups, Laura offers practical advice and candid insights. We also dig into the social stigmas and legal challenges faced by polyamorous families.
Discover how real people are navigating the intricacies of polyamory and creating fulfilling lives with multiple partners.
Laura Boyle is a relationship coach, educator, and the voice behind the blog at readyforpolyamory.com and the accompanying podcast. She has been an expert voice on the topics of polyamory and parenting for the Boston Globe, the Economist, Parents Magazine, and Cosmopolitan, as well as being polyamorous herself for nearly 20 years. Her coaching practice is largely focused on helping non-monogamous folks through major life transitions, and she's based in New Haven, CT.
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Music: Composer/Author (CA): Oscar Lindstein
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura (00:00):
The core messages that came through that let me put the
book together basically boileddown to polyamory.
Is not that different thanmonogamy?
You have to treat the peopleyou live with like real people.
Who would have thought?
Ellecia (00:16):
Hey, I'm E, your non-monogamous relationship
(00:39):
coach.
Welcome to the podcast where myfriends and I chat about our
relationships.
Hey, so maybe you'repolyamorous or moving in that
direction, right?
So let's talk about some of thenitty gritty.
I sat down with relationshipcoach Laura Boyle to unpack some
of the biggest challenges thatwe faced in polyamorous
relationships From co-living toco-parenting, finances, family,
(01:03):
recovering it all.
Laura pulled hundreds of peoplejust like us to write her new
book Monogamy in this Economy,finances, child Rearing and
Other Practical Concerns ofPolyamory.
So get ready for some real talkabout making polyamory work in
the real world today, right now,whether you're in a triad, a
quad or something else entirely,this episode is full of
(01:24):
practical advice.
So listen in for all the juicydetails.
Let me know what resonates themost with you, and don't forget
to leave a five-star rating, andI'll probably just read it on
the show.
Enjoy Cool.
The last time I hit that button,it didn't do the countdown and
I was like what is happening?
Where's my countdown?
Okay, laura, laura Boyle, right?
(01:54):
Yes, I got it Right.
Awesome, awesome.
I'm so happy you're here.
Um, I read most of your book.
I skimmed through the rest ofit because it was very, very
quick.
That's fair.
I was like I got a week, we gotthis and it's fantastic and
super, super needed, superneeded.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.
(02:15):
I know in my, in my coaching,like a lot of questions I get
are like and how do you handlethe parenting?
Oh my God, I get so manyparenting questions, so many
parenting questions, but also alot of questions about
cohabitating and money and whatdo you do in all of these
situations?
And I'm like you treat peoplelike you would any good roommate
(02:36):
, I mean that is unfortunatelysort of the base of it.
Laura (02:43):
that is unfortunately sort of the base of it.
Ellecia (02:46):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's kind of how all
cohabitating should be.
I think I mean should be yes,yes, should be.
It's kind of like saying howrelationships should be yeah.
Laura (03:02):
So I was putting together this book book and I was lucky
enough to get almost 500 peopleto answer my initial survey and
then more than 100 people to dofollow up interviews with me, of
like either doing calls oranswering with really long,
detailed emails, or a few peopleput me on Zoom and walked me
around their house through theirphones and it was really fun.
(03:25):
So I feel like totally indebtedto these people who answered my
original survey and like madeit possible for me to have the
data to write the book in thefirst place.
But the core messages that camethrough that let me put the
book together basically boileddown to polyamory is not that
(03:47):
different than monogamy.
You have to treat the peopleyou live with like real people
who would have thought, and infact, some things are just more
complicated because there aremore people like money.
Ellecia (04:07):
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
It's kind of like okay, it'skind of like group sex, like
with only two people.
You kind of know who to focuson, you know where to put things
.
You start adding more peopleand you really have to be
conscientious about where you'reputting things and who you're
spending your time with and howyou're arranging things.
Laura (04:30):
Yeah, you have to have had some more conversations
ahead of time about what you'regoing to do, and then you have
to be willing to have somethinggo a tiny bit wrong and you
adjust as you go.
Ellecia (04:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly Amazing
what, um what, what inspired youto write, uh, to write,
monogamy in this economy?
Laura (04:56):
Uh, so, as a polyamorous parent who previously lived in a
V?
Um, I get a lot of people in mycoaching practice who ask all of
these questions constantly, andso I wanted to have a like
resource that I could handpeople and something that would
(05:17):
be available for more folks thanjust the handfuls of people who
I get to work with in any givenyear.
And so that was sort of theinspiration behind starting the
whole thing, and so I said, well, if I'm going to do this, I
should be a little bitscientific about it.
And so I made this survey totry to get community input, and
(05:39):
I was so lucky that a bunch ofother people shared it, and so
we got this great response and Iwas able to have enough
information that it was really arich kind of response to work
from.
And then the publisher was likeoh, you have this big survey
that you're working from.
We're really interested inputting this out in the world,
and so it didn't have to just bea self-published whatever like
(06:00):
my previous book uh huh, so yeah, so that was the basis of why.
Ellecia (06:09):
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
What um?
Was there anything thatsurprised you?
Laura (06:14):
I was the most surprised, honestly, by how many triads
there were, which, like I,probably shouldn't have been.
Like, three is the leastcomplicated number after two.
But also I, like every otherpolyamorous influencer in the
world, have made the video of,like we don't all live in triads
, you guys, but we sort of doall live in triads If we're
(06:37):
living in groups of three ormore adults.
I'm sorry to break it to you,mm, hmm.
Ellecia (06:41):
I'm sorry to break it to you.
It's true, it's true, it'sfunny.
Yeah, same I.
I have done the same.
Like look, it's not, that's notthe end, I'll be all.
And also I have a triad that Ilive with.
Laura (06:58):
You know as well as children.
Yeah, uh, huh Uh huh, uh, huh.
Look at the three of us right,like my kids have three parents,
so I can't really say that I'moutside of that door, but but
also not everyone.
Ellecia (07:23):
Amazing, amazing.
So um so you, you do, youidentify as polyamorous.
Laura (07:28):
I do, because your relationship structure so I most
strongly identify as arelationship anarchist, but my
relationships fall under like apolyamorous structure.
Um, I live solo Um, but I havea partner of eight and a half
years.
I co-parent with my ex and myex meta, and then I have another
partner of a couple of years.
Ellecia (07:52):
Yeah, nice, nice, that's wonderful.
I um, the longer I have beennon-monogamous, the more I'm
like, yeah, relationship anarchykind of feels like that's
really what fits, because I have, I have really close friends
and I have friends that arelovers and I have lovers and I
(08:12):
have long term partners.
I have a 10 year marriage and Ihave a eight year partner and a
five year partner and like andthey're all.
Each one is so individual and Idon't live with all of them,
but I live with some of them.
Laura (08:27):
Right, it's this thing where, like do I really need to
put labels on everything I'mdoing all of the time?
Probably not.
If I did, would that beextremely complicated?
Probably yes, but as it is.
I can name two partnershipsthat have labels, and so I can
go.
Well, I am polyamorous, butalso relationship anarchy is
(08:49):
probably more accurate.
Ellecia (08:53):
Yeah, yeah, I love that .
I love that.
Um, I'm curious when you weredoing your research in um for
the book and interviewing all ofthese people, um, did you find?
Did you find much?
Um, I imagine you ask peopleabout their challenges and I'm
(09:15):
wondering how much of that waslike social, social stigma.
Laura (09:19):
Um, so, yes, but, um, the level of social stigma and like
the things I found socialstigma around were more about
finding housing or staying inhousing as opposed to other
issues.
Um, because that was what I wasfocused on in the study itself,
(09:42):
because I was mostly looking athousing and then I was looking a
little bit at parenting.
That's how the study started,yeah, and so the rate that my
study respondents said that theyhad experienced some level of
housing discrimination was abouttwo-thirds the level that was
(10:06):
found in the open communitysurvey.
So I think the reason for thisis that, based on my follow-up
interviews and the ways peoplespoke about stigma and
discrimination, I think the wayI phrased the question
(10:27):
discrimination I think the way Iphrased the question people
felt like I was asking aboutsomething that was a higher bar
than what the folks at open wereasking about.
Right, so I think they feltuncomfortable saying that they
had experienced it because itwas just and just has big scare
quotes around it somebody askingsome extra questions while they
were going to rent a place, orsure, just a landlord only
(10:51):
wanting two of them on the leaseor whatever, as opposed to like
outright discrimination.
Yeah, and people getuncomfortable with taking that
on as a label.
Ellecia (11:05):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
Yeah, I mean because that's notsomething I've had to deal with
, and so I've actually alwaysbeen curious about you know,
because I would imagine you knowif you were going to rent a
place and you just put these arethe adults that are on the
(11:26):
lease.
It's like having roommates, Iwould think.
Laura (11:30):
Right, and I know that there are folks who have had
trouble with that becausethey're living in places that
are single families owned, andso you have to explain who the
unrelated adults are and how andwhy you want them to move in,
and then if you have aconservative landlord, it's a
problem, right?
Or like you move people inbetween leases and then, when
you're ready to renew, yourlandlord has an issue with it,
(11:53):
things like that, right, oh yeah, and so there are lots of
loopholes.
There are lots of ways to getaround things.
There are ways to choose whereyou're living so that it's not
zoned like that.
But in the us, most of the usis single-family zoned, as much
as we wish it weren't as much asthis is a like racist and
(12:16):
classist institution thatprobably shouldn't exist.
Um, we can tell my politics justby the way I phrase these
things, but as much as all ofthis is the case, it is a fact.
Right numbers are either buyinghomes, because then nobody's
(12:37):
really going to bother you,unless you have the kind of
nimby neighbors who, like you'vegot too many cars out front and
you're ruining the propertyvalues sometimes people win
(12:59):
those lawsuits.
They don't and whatever like ifyou're taking good care of your
house and it's not that manycars out front, probably you
don't have a problem.
And again we're then relying onthe social contract, which only
goes so far.
So I don't want to encouragepeople to just assume that
everything will be okay all ofthe time.
(13:19):
You have to know yourneighborhood, your state, your
town, but by and large thingsare more progressive than they
used to be, as much as we'reliving in a horrible black
backslide like legislativelyright like let's all fear
(13:41):
project 2025 and simultaneouslyacknowledge that we live at the
best time to be alive, rightLike.
Ellecia (13:59):
Yes, truly Truly, um mortgage people who specialize
in helping um uh, polyamorousfamilies, multi-adult families,
um purchase homes and and gothrough the bank part of that,
and I thought that was reallyfascinating.
Laura (14:16):
Yes, and definitely a lot of the folks who owned their
homes as groups had, like, foundmortgage brokers who specialize
in order to do that and so theyhadn't felt any particular
stigma or whatever.
But they had gone seeking aparticular professional who
specializes or they'd foundmembers of community who were
(14:36):
totally open to working withthem and navigating that process
right, either through otherconnections, through the queer
community, through the kinkcommunity, through whatever, to
find the person who was open tohelping them navigate and like.
So does that count as notexperiencing stigma or does that
count as assuming you're goingto experience stigma and
(14:58):
sidestepping it?
I don't know and I don't wantto presume either of those
things.
In my reporting so I noted thatI felt like my results were in
line with opens because of theselittle differentiators in how
we ask the question.
Ellecia (15:17):
Sure, sure, yeah, that makes sense, that makes a ton of
sense, yeah.
Laura (15:23):
And I really enjoyed getting to talk about such a
wide variety of topics in thebook because we talked about
like housing and how peoplearrange their bedrooms and like
all of these sort of things thatI think are just kind of
expanding people's views of thepossibilities.
Some people who I talk to incoaching are like well, I could
(15:46):
maybe live with a meta somedayif we had an enormous house, If
everybody had their own rooms,tons of spaces, a bathroom per
adult.
I don't know about the rest ofyou, but I live in a part of the
country where it's entirely too, expensive to imagine this
(16:06):
future.
Maybe the rest of you live inplaces where land and housing
are cheap enough for this but Ido not.
Does that exist?
I enjoy, look, given thehousing crisis we currently face
.
Maybe nowhere is there, but forme it is certainly a dream, and
so I really enjoyed talking topeople about the right that had
no closets in them, yeah, and solike turning a bedroom into a
(16:59):
closet and then everybody shareda room, kind of deals, and I
thought that was really coolEverybody shared a room kind of
deals and I thought that wasreally cool, it's like little
weird things I would never havethought of doing that were
really interesting and I had funsharing these kinds of things.
or people who created newdoorways into bathrooms so that
something was no longer a masterbath.
Ellecia (17:25):
It was now a shared bathroom for all of the adults,
so that there was no longer amaster.
Laura (17:27):
I don't have to walk through the bedroom, right?
Nobody loses their privacy insuch a huge way, but everybody
gets access to the good bathroom.
Yeah, yeah and like yeah aresome of these.
Ellecia (17:38):
I love that we turned our garage into an extra space
yeah.
Laura (17:42):
So like all these sorts of ideas that yes, it's a
privilege to be able to do them,but also sometimes it costs a
lot less to do that kind ofrenovation than to find a house
that's that much bigger yeah,and fits all, all the, all the
desires, yeah, so anyway, Ienjoyed getting to do that.
(18:05):
I enjoyed getting to talk aboutthe ways kids change those
equations, because those arequestions that people ask us a
lot right like yeah, what doesit mean when you include kids?
What does it mean to breakups?
When you include kids, how doyou include, like managing your
breakup when somebody moves outof a house and they were really
(18:30):
close with your kids for six,seven, eight years that they
lived with you and so sharingthe stories of how people manage
those relationships and what itlooks like and what it looks
like when you're still reallyhurt about that breakup, so you
don't want to manage thatrelationship for your child but,
(18:50):
like your partner will do thatfor you and for your child still
.
I thought some of those werereally touching stories and so I
enjoyed getting to share someof that Right and like again, I
feel like such a sense of debtfor all of the folks who shared
their stories with me, where Igot to share and reshare those.
Ellecia (19:13):
Yeah, I love that.
That is so different than youtypically see.
You know, in a monogamousculture a breakup means like
everybody's broken up, all tiesare cut and they're blacklisted
and and that's so hard forpeople who are like I.
You know children and otherpeople who are like, but I
(19:35):
didn't break up with them.
Laura (19:38):
And like we're already rewriting all of these rules
whenever we have step parents inour culture and so doing a
little extra rewriting andeither doing that for people to
begin holding a parenting rolefor our kids or to say they held
a parenting role for this manyyears.
(19:58):
If the kid wants to continuehaving a relationship with them,
I'll facilitate.
That is, I think, really cool.
Yeah, I'm like nothing isbetter or worse, but opening
people up to these possibilitiesis, I think, helpful and handy
and something that people canconsider moving forward
(20:46):
no-transcript.
I mean as a polyamorous parentwith kids who are 10 and about
to turn eight.
Our navigation of it has beenthat other kids are totally
chill, other kids' parents aresometimes not Right right, and
(21:11):
so, for the most part, it's amatter of managing adult
expectations and figuring outwhere the adult expectations are
going to be misaligned and notgiving them space to create a
bad experience for our kids mhm,mhm and like to create a bad
(21:33):
experience for our kids, mm-hmm,mm-hmm.
Yeah, and like some of this hasbeen shaped by living in a
relatively liberal environment,yeah, but also we've been lucky
enough to mostly not have ourkids have a bad experience right
.
A couple of times there havebeen friends who, like their
(21:56):
parents, don't want them comingover our house.
So we do play dates outside thehouse or whatever.
Excuse me, but yeah, so littlethings like that, but for the
most part it's been prettysmooth sailing, like my, my kid,
when he was three, his pre-K,did you know the all about
(22:17):
families kind of day, and hecame home and this is one of my
favorite stories in life.
He came home and was like didyou guys know, not everybody has
two moms, full sincerity, and,like some other kids in his
class also had two moms becausethey were like the children of
divorce and had like remarriedparents.
Ellecia (22:41):
Yeah.
Laura (22:41):
And so it wasn't.
I'm the only one who has twomoms.
Did you know?
Some people don't have two moms.
Ellecia (22:48):
It's so sad for them yeah.
Laura (22:50):
He was so concerned.
He was like how did their momsget anything done?
Ellecia (22:58):
God, that's cute.
Laura (23:01):
And so like there is something to be said for being
open in your environment, withschools, with doctors, with all
of these different people,because more of the time than
not, they're pretty chill, likenot everyone has been perfectly
(23:21):
chill with us, but the vastmajority have been right.
Like our kids are in boy Scoutsand they're relaxed about it
and they're owned by Mormons.
Ellecia (23:38):
They're like yeah, we get it, it's fine.
Yeah, I have found a lot ofpeople are just like I'm not
even going to ask, right, right,I mean, that has to do with
what I'm doing here.
Laura (23:49):
I think now that I know like I'm separated from their
dad, people just assume we'redivorced.
But when we all lived together,we were just sort of the weird
family.
Oh yeah, that's the weird family, okay yeah and like my partner
of eight and a half years, livesin a triad and so his kids have
(24:12):
two dads and like, oh yeah,those are just the weird kids.
Or like, oh, they're very nicekids.
Their parents are strange, yeah, and he has been prepared to be
the strange parent since he wasa kid.
Yeah, so he went from being aweird kid to being a weird
parent and he's fully on boardwith that.
(24:32):
So he does everything he can tolike be chill enough that the
other parents are not so weirdedout that, like, his kids don't
get invited to things and that'sit yeah, yeah, yeah, I have
teenagers and they're all like,yeah, yeah, this is just fine,
it's whatever, like it's not athing.
Ellecia (24:54):
And I've found that I am much more concerned about it
than my kids have ever been.
So like I won't, you know, likeFacebook friend their friends
parents.
I'm like, no, we're not goingto do that, because I'm very,
you know, clearly, I have apodcast and I'm very vocal and
so I'm like, well, you know, ifthey have, if they have
questions, I'll answer them, butI'm not going to have them just
(25:15):
like stumble upon me, right?
I'm not.
Laura (25:20):
I'm not like oh yeah, everybody's mom is my buddy on
Facebook.
No, if they're like my actualfriend in real life, that can
happen, but that's like 5% ofthem maybe.
Ellecia (25:40):
Uh huh, yep% of them maybe.
Uh-huh, yep, yep, yep, yep,Amazing, amazing, um, speaking
of people moving in together andpeople living together and um,
all the things that come with it, can you talk about the
importance of like, like,compatibility, like
(26:01):
communication, but also justcompatibility?
Laura (26:05):
So there are so many kinds of compatibility that go
into living together and we as aculture do not think about them
.
We we talk to people aboutfinding your happily ever after
and like being swept off yourfeet and people being supposed
to be your best friend but alsoyour like sexual zenith.
(26:25):
But we do not talk to peopleabout liking things at a similar
level of messiness as oneanother and we do not talk to
people about liking things at asimilar level of messiness as
one another.
And we do not talk to peopleabout having similar values
around finances as one another.
And we do not talk to peopleabout wanting similar levels of
(26:48):
having guests over as oneanother.
And those three things are likethe biggest indicators of
whether or not you'll hateliving together.
Because if one of you is asocial butterfly who wants
friends over twice a week anddoesn't care if the house is a
mess or not when that happens,and the other one wants the
(27:09):
house neat as a pin when peoplecome over because you can't see
their dirty clutter, shame.
And also really isn't thatsocial in the first place.
Like they'll go out andsocialize with people if they
need to, but like for peopleover the house.
They don't want that more thanonce a month.
You're going to have a bad time.
It's not going to go well.
(27:31):
That's going to be veryuncomfortable and it's going to
become very uncomfortable withinthose first three months.
It's not going to be good.
There's going to be fights,it's going to be bad, and
sometimes those two people canhave a partner in between them
who could go either way.
On both of those things they'remay be really social, just like
(27:54):
the person who wants peopleover twice a month, but they're
twice a week rather.
But they're really happy goingout twice a week.
They don't need anyone in yourspace.
They'd rather their space bekind of empty, like it just be
theirs.
Yeah, but they want to besocial that often and they like
their space to be really neat,like the person who needs it to
(28:15):
be perfectly neat when anyonecomes in.
And so you got that person inthe middle going.
I'm upset with both of you why?
And the three of them aretrying to live together and our
culture also puts a lot of theonus of housekeeping on people
socialized as women, and whenyou combine all of that you can
(28:39):
get into some perfect stormterritory, especially if it's a
man as the hinge and women onboth ends of that arguing about
frequency and cleaning.
Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
If you reverse the genders,it's still equally bad, because
then you've got a woman in themiddle going and you guys are
expecting me to make you listsof how often to do something and
(29:01):
why, and neither of you isfollowing them and I can't
figure out the expectations forhow to do this and what is wrong
with you.
I love you both, but I will getboth of you.
(29:23):
No, uh-huh, and just genderedexpectations around household
tasks and people not havingunpacked them, and gendered
expectations around calendarsand people not having unpacked
them were in the top two.
Complaints around people movingin together, especially if it
was a third, which is in giantscare quotes moving in with a
(29:44):
couple especially, but reallyany three people moving in
together, because if you're in aposition where there was
someone keeping a calendar fortwo people and then a third
person moves in and they're usedto maintaining all their own
stuff, but combining thesethings is hard because one of
these people isn't reallypulling their weight on that end
(30:07):
.
Yeah, figuring out the newconfiguration gets tricky.
Is the person who's been doingthe maintaining your partner or
your meta.
How are you going to blend this?
There's a lot of interpersonaldynamics that come into it, and
there's a lot of socialexpectation dynamics that come
into it and a lot of thesesocial expectation dynamics are
(30:31):
about people who are socializedas women running families, doing
kin keeping, doing calendarkeeping, calendar keeping for
themselves, their spouses, theirchildren.
But if you both want tomaintain polyamorous
relationships that are outsideof that dyadic unit, you should
have split that up at some point.
(30:51):
You should each be maintainingyour own thing.
You should both be aware up atsome point.
You should each be maintainingyour own thing.
You should both be aware ofwhat the kid's needs and
calendar are independently.
If someone is in charge of thekid's calendar, the other person
should be doing some additionalhousehold tasks to sort of
balance that out.
And yes, I'm saying should Idon't love the word should, but
I'm absolutely using it here begood to one another, please, for
(31:14):
the love of all that's holdinganyway.
So yeah, there are things thatlike really had better happen if
you want to maintain thesethings in some equilibrium, and
a third person entering canreally shine a light on them.
If the third person isn't partof that dynamic, or if the third
(31:34):
person is of one gender or theother, it suddenly makes it
really apparent because they'llwalk in and they'll go.
(31:54):
Oh, i'm't, but I'm used todoing all this work because I
lived alone.
All of us should do all thiswork.
Let's have a conversation abouthow we split the chores yeah
yeah, and that's not even tomention finances and that
everyone keeps them differentlyand that some people come from a
(32:15):
place where, either because ofhaving been well off or because
of poverty, they have a verydifferent relationship to money
or whether or not you pay peopleback one by one for things, or
like what's a shared expense andwhat's not a shared expense,
(32:39):
which varies so enormously,because for some people it's
like well, it's paying for thedog food right?
is the dog everyone's dog.
Is the child of the coupleeveryone's child, because this
person's moving in and has nowbeen given permission to like
send the child to their roomright?
Is the permission to send thechild to their room the moment
(33:01):
where this person becomes aparent, right or?
Ellecia (33:04):
is the moment the financial right or is the?
Laura (33:07):
moment where they become a parent and share the financial
burden.
The moment where they also get avote on like medical problems
or is that only the moment afteryou go and do legal paperwork
that, like, they have medicalpowers paperwork so that they
can also take the kid to thehospital, and only after that do
they also pay for things, right, like, and there's all these
(33:31):
million different thresholdsthat you could consider it, and
people have made all of thesedifferent choices and you have
to decide what works for yourfamily.
Yeah, but so many people don'twant to talk about so many
dimensions of this or only wantto talk about it after there's a
fight about some aspect of it.
(33:51):
Yeah, it's scary, right, youonly want to chat about it after
somebody pays for a bigvacation on a credit card that
someone else can see and they goyou bought what.
Ellecia (34:04):
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Laura (34:06):
And they're like well, but we said that dating was on
that card.
That's not a date, that's afour-day trip.
Ellecia (34:14):
yeah, wait a minute to some people.
Laura (34:18):
That's an obvious distinction.
And to some people, no, that'sa date, we talked about it.
You took a two-day overnightwith that person and you put
that on the card.
That was gas and a 75campground fee, right, and like,
yeah, these are realisticconversations that people who
(34:40):
are sharing money have.
Yeah, and so the vast majorityof people who shared finances in
my study did not completelyshare finances.
They partially shared finances.
It was either that couples whopreviously shared finances kept
sharing them and someone elsehad a separate bank account and
(35:01):
they decided what else was ashared expense and split them,
or that they had a householdbank account into which
everybody put some money whetherthat was a set dollar amount or
a set percentage of theirincome and then they paid
household bills out of that.
Right, it was almost never thateveryone had pooled all of
(35:22):
their money into one account.
That would be so scary.
Some people were doing it.
It was just a very smallpercentage and it was almost
always like polyfidelitous,long-term units sure, sure, yeah
, that makes sense, yeah andlike a few people had gone.
Everyone has completely separatefinances, which I also
(35:44):
understand yeah, yeah, that's,that's what we do.
Ellecia (35:48):
But we, um, we were my husband and I were both married
previously to and had like therewas financial abuse for both of
us, and so for when we gottogether, we were like, nope, we
will not be sharing ourfinances, you pay for that, I'll
pay for this.
And then, as other people showup, we're like you pay for that,
you pay for that, I'll pay forthis.
Laura (36:09):
People with more roommates with multiple
marriages and with lower incometend to keep money separate, and
the higher your income goes,the fewer people are involved,
and the fewer times folks havebeen married, the more likely
they are to pool them.
Those were the factors thatcorrelated.
Ellecia (36:30):
That makes sense, that makes so much sense.
Laura (36:33):
But I thought it was interesting that all of those
factors correlated um uh-huh,yeah, it's fascinating, uh,
seeing how, how other people dothings.
Ellecia (36:45):
I mean that's why I started this podcast.
I was like there's lots ofresources now, um, but I every
time I'm reading a book orlistening to a podcast, I'm like
cool, great advice.
But how'd you figure it outRight?
What did you do?
What really happened?
Laura (36:58):
I want to know what other people are doing Right, cause,
like the community part, thepart where we aren't alone, is
one of the most important piecesto maintain our sanity and like
when I was writing the financeschapter when lived in a triad,
we did the like we take apercentage of our income and put
it into a shared account tocover the things we had agreed
(37:20):
were household expenses, and sofor us that included kid
expenses, because we were allraising the kids together.
But a lot of people who Italked to were like, oh, kid
expenses are not shared expensesbecause fewer than everyone in
the household is a parent.
And I was like I don't think Icould handle living in a
(37:40):
household where not everyone ispaying for kids who are living
here, because, like what do youthink the children pay for
themselves?
Right, it's community, we're alltaking care of them, sure, but
I understand when I listened topeople's explanations and I
(38:03):
noted down the way that peopleexplained it, but for me
personally that would not haveworked.
But so the section on taking apercentage of your income and
putting it in, other people haddone very similar to what we did
.
So that section is likecombined of what we did and what
other people did.
Ellecia (38:20):
Yeah, solid advice.
Laura (38:23):
Because it does work even from when you have like no
money to when people are makinga lot of money.
It is very transferable.
Ellecia (38:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Laura (38:36):
If, um, if people are considering um transitioning to
like having a having a polyhousehold, um, what, what advice
or what conversations would yousay they should definitely do
first, I think having honestconversations about how you're
(39:02):
actually living now and whetherit's reflective of how you want
to live in terms of likemessiness and how often you cook
at home, like messiness and howoften you cook at home, and
because sometimes people aren'tcooking at home because they're
living in like an apartment witha shitty kitchen and they've
got four roommates and so theycan never get into the kitchen
(39:22):
to cook, but in an ideal worldthey'd be cooking at home five
nights a week, and so beinghonest about stuff like that
matters right.
Ellecia (39:31):
Yeah.
Laura (39:32):
But so things like that about how messy you actually are
, about whether or not you arethe person who, in an ideal
world, would never clean abathroom again, because if every
single one of you is thatperson, then you all need to be
in a certain amount ofacceptance that whoever is
cleaning the bathroom is goingto be resentful every time it's
cleaned, and so you may have aless clean bathroom than any
(39:54):
other room in your house.
I'm not saying that it won'tget cleaned, but I'm saying, if
the rest of your house isgetting cleaned twice a week,
the bathroom might be on a oncea week or once every 10 days
schedule and, like, as the childof a neat freak, that might be
a little hard for me personally,it might be the right schedule
(40:18):
for you and yours.
So consider it Right.
Yeah, and so like there aresome of these points that like
you need to actually talk about.
Talk about actual work and sleepschedules, because if some of
you work overnights, but not allof you, that's surmountable.
It's less surmountable if someof you are children.
(40:41):
It's doable, but it's real hard, right?
The person who works overnightsis used to sleeping with
earplugs and eye masks andwhatever.
Maybe it's manageable, maybeit's not.
Have realistic conversationsabout work schedules, about
where it is you intend to live,how it would work, the like
(41:05):
practical nitty-gritty are thethings that need to get
discussed before, not only after, you're signing a lease.
Do not sign a lease before youhave some idea of how it would
actually work.
And then, on top of that, havesome comfort with everybody who
(41:25):
is going to be living in thebuilding.
If there's anyone in the groupwho you could not spend a whole
evening with by yourself,consider not doing it.
Uh-huh, because, like if youneed to feel sometimes that you
(41:46):
need to fully escape, you'regoing to get uncomfortable in
your own home and it's not worthit.
Ellecia (41:53):
Yeah.
Laura (41:54):
And, like everybody, gets that a couple times a year
because that's just family,that's just life right and these
people will be your family bythe time you're done living with
them.
But you want to choose familyappropriately.
You don't feel that way all thetime.
Relationships should beadditive to our lives, not
(42:17):
stressful.
It's attractive.
Ellecia (42:20):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yes, yes, take off the love
blinders and get down to thepractical.
Laura (42:27):
Right, remove the rose-colored glasses about your
partner and look at everyoneinvolved, because sometimes you
love your partner but they'resuper messy and you know that's
going to make you insane inthree weeks.
Also, if possible, do littletrial runs, right?
(42:48):
Oh yeah, stay at each other'splaces for two weeks straight.
Yeah, see how much you makeeach other crazy at the end of
two weeks.
Yeah, make each other crazy atthe end of two weeks, yeah,
especially if it's smaller spacethan you're actually going to
occupy, because it will pointout all of those little
difficult whatevers and it'sbetter to know what they are.
(43:15):
Yeah, and like, get ahead of it.
Yes, the trial run will never beideal, because you will not
have all of both of your stuffin the same place.
But talk to each other.
If you're planning to move intosomeone's space, talk to them
about how you're going to makeit a space that is for all of
you, right, because you don'twant to be a guest moving into
someone else's space.
You want it to be your spacetoo.
Ellecia (43:42):
Like, how will it?
And the flip side of that ishaving someone moving into your
space and now, all of a sudden,it's not my, just mine, and I
have to move things and I haveto change things.
Laura (43:54):
You're going to cope with that?
If you're someone who getsanxiety, how will you cope with
the anxiety that is triggered bythat, because it is a loss of
control?
Yeah, yeah big time, but likeit's one, that's often worth it,
mm-hmm yeah, so good yeah.
(44:18):
So I guess those are my like bigconversations that people
should have and if there arechildren involved, make sure you
have explicit conversationsabout what makes a person a
parent, about what steps you'retaking if you're not considering
someone a parent right.
What is their role, what thingsare they and aren't they
allowed to do?
Because if someone isn't aparent but is an adult that
(44:42):
lives in your house, they'regoing to be having interactions
with your children and figuringout what those interactions are
and aren't allowed to look like.
Being more explicit is betterthan not.
Ellecia (44:57):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, that one's rough becausea lot of it feels like I don't
know the answer until I'vecrossed that bridge.
Sure, right, like, oh wait, Ididn't know that this was even
possible.
Laura (45:12):
sure, I thought you guys would always get along, right,
but saying, like hey, yeah,let's figure out a ceiling and a
floor, yes, and then if, onceyou're here and we're at the
floor, we want to move theceiling higher, we can talk
about that together.
But let's set a startingceiling and a floor At least
(45:35):
gives you space to move in.
Yeah, because humans areterrible predictors of how
they're going to feel Really are.
Yeah, because humans areterrible predictors of how
they're gonna feel like reallyjust scientifically, like every
study shows that we're badpredictors of how we're gonna
feel.
But starting somewhere, so thatthen we have somewhere to move
from.
Because if we go in with noexpectation, it's significantly
(46:00):
worse, because otherwise youwalk in and just everyone is
stepping on triggers andlandmines for other people and
like your partner, who's movingin, who's not intending to
parent, feels like they're beingasked to babysit constantly, or
you feel like they're takingyour role as a parent or what
(46:22):
have you right?
Or you feel like they're notdoing enough and they're taking
the kid's side against you andundermining you while you're
parenting right.
So having some of these awkward, explicit conversations ahead
of time to minimize some of thatimpact.
Or, if you don't have kids butyou think you might want to in
(46:43):
the next couple of years, beingopen about it Yep, yep, because
going hey, I'm happy to have youlive here, but we're thinking
of having kids in the next two,three years.
There is space in the house forboth those things to happen,
but I need you to know, becauseif you don't intend to parent
(47:03):
with us in two or three years,there will be a kid here and
that's going to affect ourrelationship.
Ellecia (47:11):
Yeah.
Laura (47:12):
We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but I want
you to be aware so that you'renot settling into a blissful,
child free future while we arementally preparing for a future
where we have kids and maybe youhave them with us.
Ellecia (47:28):
Right.
Laura (47:29):
And again, people can change their minds a hundred
times while you're in it.
I thought I was never going tohave kids, and then I had a kid,
yep.
And then we collectivelydecided to have a second one,
right?
Ellecia (47:44):
Uh-huh.
Laura (47:44):
And so I would not change that.
But if you'd asked me 15 yearsago if I was going to be a like
happy mom of two kids, I wouldhave said probably not.
Ellecia (47:58):
Right.
Laura (48:01):
And so Right and so Yep, being straightforward about your
intended plans so that they'renot totally blindsiding, and
having every few month check-insabout whether or not those
plans have changed, can bereally valuable.
And like they don't need to beas formal as like we sit down
(48:23):
and have a radar every month but, you know, every three to six
months going hey, I still havethese big life plans, my job is
still this.
It looks like I might get apromotion in the next six months
.
That would be cool.
If I do, this is what I want todo with that extra money is
(48:44):
helpful to the household.
It keeps people in the loop.
Ellecia (48:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's really important.
Laura (48:52):
Just just keep talking, just keep talking, just keep
telling them all the cool thingspeople told you that you wrote
down where they can readmonogamy in this economy,
finances, child rearing andother practical concerns of
polyamory.
Ellecia (49:08):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Is there anything I haven'tasked you that you want to share
?
Laura (49:14):
I mean I feel like we've hit on most of it.
I think it's important to notethat there are so many slowly
advancing ways to create formalsupports for your parenting
structure, sort of state andjurisdiction.
(49:38):
So folks should talk to localfamily attorneys if they're
already doing this and want someway to note down what they're
doing.
But if you're in a long-termpoly family and you have
children and you want a legalnotation of your family
structure, see a local familyattorney.
(49:59):
In many states there are waysto give all of the parents who
are parenting some degree ofrecognition that gives a certain
amount of protection inbreakups, a certain amount of
protection in the case of theunfortunate death of the parents
, right, and so making sure thatthese things are in place can
be really protective for yourchildren and for your family.
Ellecia (50:20):
Yeah, yeah, beautiful, beautiful.
I love that.
It's really important, yeah,amazing.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for writing the bookand thank you for coming and
sharing it with us.
Laura (50:36):
Thank you for having me, if folks are interested.
So the book is available forpre-order until august 21st and
then it'll be out in the worldand you can just have it in your
sweaty little fingertips, justlike mine.
Um, yes, so it can be hadwherever books are sold.
You can ask your localbookstore to get it for you
(50:57):
anywhere in the us, the uk, orcan.
Yeah, and it's called Monogamyin this Economy, finances, child
Rearing and Other PracticalConcerns of Polyamory.
Ellecia (51:09):
I love it Amazing, fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
I'm very excited, of course.
The core messages that came through that let me put the
book together basically boileddown to polyamory.
Is not that different thanmonogamy?
You have to treat the peopleyou live with like real people.
Who would have thought?
Ellecia (00:16):
Hey, I'm E, your non-monogamous relationship
(00:39):
coach.
Welcome to the podcast where myfriends and I chat about our
relationships.
Hey, so maybe you'repolyamorous or moving in that
direction, right?
So let's talk about some of thenitty gritty.
I sat down with relationshipcoach Laura Boyle to unpack some
of the biggest challenges thatwe faced in polyamorous
relationships From co-living toco-parenting, finances, family,
(01:03):
recovering it all.
Laura pulled hundreds of peoplejust like us to write her new
book Monogamy in this Economy,finances, child Rearing and
Other Practical Concerns ofPolyamory.
So get ready for some real talkabout making polyamory work in
the real world today, right now,whether you're in a triad, a
quad or something else entirely,this episode is full of
(01:24):
practical advice.
So listen in for all the juicydetails.
Let me know what resonates themost with you, and don't forget
to leave a five-star rating, andI'll probably just read it on
the show.
Enjoy Cool.
The last time I hit that button,it didn't do the countdown and
I was like what is happening?
Where's my countdown?
Okay, laura, laura Boyle, right?
(01:54):
Yes, I got it Right.
Awesome, awesome.
I'm so happy you're here.
Um, I read most of your book.
I skimmed through the rest ofit because it was very, very
quick.
That's fair.
I was like I got a week, we gotthis and it's fantastic and
super, super needed, superneeded.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.
(02:15):
I know in my, in my coaching,like a lot of questions I get
are like and how do you handlethe parenting?
Oh my God, I get so manyparenting questions, so many
parenting questions, but also alot of questions about
cohabitating and money and whatdo you do in all of these
situations?
And I'm like you treat peoplelike you would any good roommate
(02:36):
, I mean that is unfortunatelysort of the base of it.
Laura (02:43):
that is unfortunately sort of the base of it.
Ellecia (02:46):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's kind of how all
cohabitating should be.
I think I mean should be yes,yes, should be.
It's kind of like saying howrelationships should be yeah.
Laura (03:02):
So I was putting together this book book and I was lucky
enough to get almost 500 peopleto answer my initial survey and
then more than 100 people to dofollow up interviews with me, of
like either doing calls oranswering with really long,
detailed emails, or a few peopleput me on Zoom and walked me
around their house through theirphones and it was really fun.
(03:25):
So I feel like totally indebtedto these people who answered my
original survey and like madeit possible for me to have the
data to write the book in thefirst place.
But the core messages that camethrough that let me put the
book together basically boileddown to polyamory is not that
(03:47):
different than monogamy.
You have to treat the peopleyou live with like real people
who would have thought, and infact, some things are just more
complicated because there aremore people like money.
Ellecia (04:07):
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
It's kind of like okay, it'skind of like group sex, like
with only two people.
You kind of know who to focuson, you know where to put things
.
You start adding more peopleand you really have to be
conscientious about where you'reputting things and who you're
spending your time with and howyou're arranging things.
Laura (04:30):
Yeah, you have to have had some more conversations
ahead of time about what you'regoing to do, and then you have
to be willing to have somethinggo a tiny bit wrong and you
adjust as you go.
Ellecia (04:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly Amazing
what, um what, what inspired youto write, uh, to write,
monogamy in this economy?
Laura (04:56):
Uh, so, as a polyamorous parent who previously lived in a
V?
Um, I get a lot of people in mycoaching practice who ask all of
these questions constantly, andso I wanted to have a like
resource that I could handpeople and something that would
(05:17):
be available for more folks thanjust the handfuls of people who
I get to work with in any givenyear.
And so that was sort of theinspiration behind starting the
whole thing, and so I said, well, if I'm going to do this, I
should be a little bitscientific about it.
And so I made this survey totry to get community input, and
(05:39):
I was so lucky that a bunch ofother people shared it, and so
we got this great response and Iwas able to have enough
information that it was really arich kind of response to work
from.
And then the publisher was likeoh, you have this big survey
that you're working from.
We're really interested inputting this out in the world,
and so it didn't have to just bea self-published whatever like
(06:00):
my previous book uh huh, so yeah, so that was the basis of why.
Ellecia (06:09):
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
What um?
Was there anything thatsurprised you?
Laura (06:14):
I was the most surprised, honestly, by how many triads
there were, which, like I,probably shouldn't have been.
Like, three is the leastcomplicated number after two.
But also I, like every otherpolyamorous influencer in the
world, have made the video of,like we don't all live in triads
, you guys, but we sort of doall live in triads If we're
(06:37):
living in groups of three ormore adults.
I'm sorry to break it to you,mm, hmm.
Ellecia (06:41):
I'm sorry to break it to you.
It's true, it's true, it'sfunny.
Yeah, same I.
I have done the same.
Like look, it's not, that's notthe end, I'll be all.
And also I have a triad that Ilive with.
Laura (06:58):
You know as well as children.
Yeah, uh, huh Uh huh, uh, huh.
Look at the three of us right,like my kids have three parents,
so I can't really say that I'moutside of that door, but but
also not everyone.
Ellecia (07:23):
Amazing, amazing.
So um so you, you do, youidentify as polyamorous.
Laura (07:28):
I do, because your relationship structure so I most
strongly identify as arelationship anarchist, but my
relationships fall under like apolyamorous structure.
Um, I live solo Um, but I havea partner of eight and a half
years.
I co-parent with my ex and myex meta, and then I have another
partner of a couple of years.
Ellecia (07:52):
Yeah, nice, nice, that's wonderful.
I um, the longer I have beennon-monogamous, the more I'm
like, yeah, relationship anarchykind of feels like that's
really what fits, because I have, I have really close friends
and I have friends that arelovers and I have lovers and I
(08:12):
have long term partners.
I have a 10 year marriage and Ihave a eight year partner and a
five year partner and like andthey're all.
Each one is so individual and Idon't live with all of them,
but I live with some of them.
Laura (08:27):
Right, it's this thing where, like do I really need to
put labels on everything I'mdoing all of the time?
Probably not.
If I did, would that beextremely complicated?
Probably yes, but as it is.
I can name two partnershipsthat have labels, and so I can
go.
Well, I am polyamorous, butalso relationship anarchy is
(08:49):
probably more accurate.
Ellecia (08:53):
Yeah, yeah, I love that .
I love that.
Um, I'm curious when you weredoing your research in um for
the book and interviewing all ofthese people, um, did you find?
Did you find much?
Um, I imagine you ask peopleabout their challenges and I'm
(09:15):
wondering how much of that waslike social, social stigma.
Laura (09:19):
Um, so, yes, but, um, the level of social stigma and like
the things I found socialstigma around were more about
finding housing or staying inhousing as opposed to other
issues.
Um, because that was what I wasfocused on in the study itself,
(09:42):
because I was mostly looking athousing and then I was looking a
little bit at parenting.
That's how the study started,yeah, and so the rate that my
study respondents said that theyhad experienced some level of
housing discrimination was abouttwo-thirds the level that was
(10:06):
found in the open communitysurvey.
So I think the reason for thisis that, based on my follow-up
interviews and the ways peoplespoke about stigma and
discrimination, I think the wayI phrased the question
(10:27):
discrimination I think the way Iphrased the question people
felt like I was asking aboutsomething that was a higher bar
than what the folks at open wereasking about.
Right, so I think they feltuncomfortable saying that they
had experienced it because itwas just and just has big scare
quotes around it somebody askingsome extra questions while they
were going to rent a place, orsure, just a landlord only
(10:51):
wanting two of them on the leaseor whatever, as opposed to like
outright discrimination.
Yeah, and people getuncomfortable with taking that
on as a label.
Ellecia (11:05):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
Yeah, I mean because that's notsomething I've had to deal with
, and so I've actually alwaysbeen curious about you know,
because I would imagine you knowif you were going to rent a
place and you just put these arethe adults that are on the
(11:26):
lease.
It's like having roommates, Iwould think.
Laura (11:30):
Right, and I know that there are folks who have had
trouble with that becausethey're living in places that
are single families owned, andso you have to explain who the
unrelated adults are and how andwhy you want them to move in,
and then if you have aconservative landlord, it's a
problem, right?
Or like you move people inbetween leases and then, when
you're ready to renew, yourlandlord has an issue with it,
(11:53):
things like that, right, oh yeah, and so there are lots of
loopholes.
There are lots of ways to getaround things.
There are ways to choose whereyou're living so that it's not
zoned like that.
But in the us, most of the usis single-family zoned, as much
as we wish it weren't as much asthis is a like racist and
(12:16):
classist institution thatprobably shouldn't exist.
Um, we can tell my politics justby the way I phrase these
things, but as much as all ofthis is the case, it is a fact.
Right numbers are either buyinghomes, because then nobody's
(12:37):
really going to bother you,unless you have the kind of
nimby neighbors who, like you'vegot too many cars out front and
you're ruining the propertyvalues sometimes people win
(12:59):
those lawsuits.
They don't and whatever like ifyou're taking good care of your
house and it's not that manycars out front, probably you
don't have a problem.
And again we're then relying onthe social contract, which only
goes so far.
So I don't want to encouragepeople to just assume that
everything will be okay all ofthe time.
(13:19):
You have to know yourneighborhood, your state, your
town, but by and large thingsare more progressive than they
used to be, as much as we'reliving in a horrible black
backslide like legislativelyright like let's all fear
(13:41):
project 2025 and simultaneouslyacknowledge that we live at the
best time to be alive, rightLike.
Ellecia (13:59):
Yes, truly Truly, um mortgage people who specialize
in helping um uh, polyamorousfamilies, multi-adult families,
um purchase homes and and gothrough the bank part of that,
and I thought that was reallyfascinating.
Laura (14:16):
Yes, and definitely a lot of the folks who owned their
homes as groups had, like, foundmortgage brokers who specialize
in order to do that and so theyhadn't felt any particular
stigma or whatever.
But they had gone seeking aparticular professional who
specializes or they'd foundmembers of community who were
(14:36):
totally open to working withthem and navigating that process
right, either through otherconnections, through the queer
community, through the kinkcommunity, through whatever, to
find the person who was open tohelping them navigate and like.
So does that count as notexperiencing stigma or does that
count as assuming you're goingto experience stigma and
(14:58):
sidestepping it?
I don't know and I don't wantto presume either of those
things.
In my reporting so I noted thatI felt like my results were in
line with opens because of theselittle differentiators in how
we ask the question.
Ellecia (15:17):
Sure, sure, yeah, that makes sense, that makes a ton of
sense, yeah.
Laura (15:23):
And I really enjoyed getting to talk about such a
wide variety of topics in thebook because we talked about
like housing and how peoplearrange their bedrooms and like
all of these sort of things thatI think are just kind of
expanding people's views of thepossibilities.
Some people who I talk to incoaching are like well, I could
(15:46):
maybe live with a meta somedayif we had an enormous house, If
everybody had their own rooms,tons of spaces, a bathroom per
adult.
I don't know about the rest ofyou, but I live in a part of the
country where it's entirely too, expensive to imagine this
(16:06):
future.
Maybe the rest of you live inplaces where land and housing
are cheap enough for this but Ido not.
Does that exist?
I enjoy, look, given thehousing crisis we currently face
.
Maybe nowhere is there, but forme it is certainly a dream, and
so I really enjoyed talking topeople about the right that had
no closets in them, yeah, and solike turning a bedroom into a
(16:59):
closet and then everybody shareda room, kind of deals, and I
thought that was really coolEverybody shared a room kind of
deals and I thought that wasreally cool, it's like little
weird things I would never havethought of doing that were
really interesting and I had funsharing these kinds of things.
or people who created newdoorways into bathrooms so that
something was no longer a masterbath.
Ellecia (17:25):
It was now a shared bathroom for all of the adults,
so that there was no longer amaster.
Laura (17:27):
I don't have to walk through the bedroom, right?
Nobody loses their privacy insuch a huge way, but everybody
gets access to the good bathroom.
Yeah, yeah and like yeah aresome of these.
Ellecia (17:38):
I love that we turned our garage into an extra space
yeah.
Laura (17:42):
So like all these sorts of ideas that yes, it's a
privilege to be able to do them,but also sometimes it costs a
lot less to do that kind ofrenovation than to find a house
that's that much bigger yeah,and fits all, all the, all the
desires, yeah, so anyway, Ienjoyed getting to do that.
(18:05):
I enjoyed getting to talk aboutthe ways kids change those
equations, because those arequestions that people ask us a
lot right like yeah, what doesit mean when you include kids?
What does it mean to breakups?
When you include kids, how doyou include, like managing your
breakup when somebody moves outof a house and they were really
(18:30):
close with your kids for six,seven, eight years that they
lived with you and so sharingthe stories of how people manage
those relationships and what itlooks like and what it looks
like when you're still reallyhurt about that breakup, so you
don't want to manage thatrelationship for your child but,
(18:50):
like your partner will do thatfor you and for your child still
.
I thought some of those werereally touching stories and so I
enjoyed getting to share someof that Right and like again, I
feel like such a sense of debtfor all of the folks who shared
their stories with me, where Igot to share and reshare those.
Ellecia (19:13):
Yeah, I love that.
That is so different than youtypically see.
You know, in a monogamousculture a breakup means like
everybody's broken up, all tiesare cut and they're blacklisted
and and that's so hard forpeople who are like I.
You know children and otherpeople who are like, but I
(19:35):
didn't break up with them.
Laura (19:38):
And like we're already rewriting all of these rules
whenever we have step parents inour culture and so doing a
little extra rewriting andeither doing that for people to
begin holding a parenting rolefor our kids or to say they held
a parenting role for this manyyears.
(19:58):
If the kid wants to continuehaving a relationship with them,
I'll facilitate.
That is, I think, really cool.
Yeah, I'm like nothing isbetter or worse, but opening
people up to these possibilitiesis, I think, helpful and handy
and something that people canconsider moving forward
(20:46):
no-transcript.
I mean as a polyamorous parentwith kids who are 10 and about
to turn eight.
Our navigation of it has beenthat other kids are totally
chill, other kids' parents aresometimes not Right right, and
(21:11):
so, for the most part, it's amatter of managing adult
expectations and figuring outwhere the adult expectations are
going to be misaligned and notgiving them space to create a
bad experience for our kids mhm,mhm and like to create a bad
(21:33):
experience for our kids, mm-hmm,mm-hmm.
Yeah, and like some of this hasbeen shaped by living in a
relatively liberal environment,yeah, but also we've been lucky
enough to mostly not have ourkids have a bad experience right
.
A couple of times there havebeen friends who, like their
(21:56):
parents, don't want them comingover our house.
So we do play dates outside thehouse or whatever.
Excuse me, but yeah, so littlethings like that, but for the
most part it's been prettysmooth sailing, like my, my kid,
when he was three, his pre-K,did you know the all about
(22:17):
families kind of day, and hecame home and this is one of my
favorite stories in life.
He came home and was like didyou guys know, not everybody has
two moms, full sincerity, and,like some other kids in his
class also had two moms becausethey were like the children of
divorce and had like remarriedparents.
Ellecia (22:41):
Yeah.
Laura (22:41):
And so it wasn't.
I'm the only one who has twomoms.
Did you know?
Some people don't have two moms.
Ellecia (22:48):
It's so sad for them yeah.
Laura (22:50):
He was so concerned.
He was like how did their momsget anything done?
Ellecia (22:58):
God, that's cute.
Laura (23:01):
And so like there is something to be said for being
open in your environment, withschools, with doctors, with all
of these different people,because more of the time than
not, they're pretty chill, likenot everyone has been perfectly
(23:21):
chill with us, but the vastmajority have been right.
Like our kids are in boy Scoutsand they're relaxed about it
and they're owned by Mormons.
Ellecia (23:38):
They're like yeah, we get it, it's fine.
Yeah, I have found a lot ofpeople are just like I'm not
even going to ask, right, right,I mean, that has to do with
what I'm doing here.
Laura (23:49):
I think now that I know like I'm separated from their
dad, people just assume we'redivorced.
But when we all lived together,we were just sort of the weird
family.
Oh yeah, that's the weird family, okay yeah and like my partner
of eight and a half years, livesin a triad and so his kids have
(24:12):
two dads and like, oh yeah,those are just the weird kids.
Or like, oh, they're very nicekids.
Their parents are strange, yeah, and he has been prepared to be
the strange parent since he wasa kid.
Yeah, so he went from being aweird kid to being a weird
parent and he's fully on boardwith that.
(24:32):
So he does everything he can tolike be chill enough that the
other parents are not so weirdedout that, like, his kids don't
get invited to things and that'sit yeah, yeah, yeah, I have
teenagers and they're all like,yeah, yeah, this is just fine,
it's whatever, like it's not athing.
Ellecia (24:54):
And I've found that I am much more concerned about it
than my kids have ever been.
So like I won't, you know, likeFacebook friend their friends
parents.
I'm like, no, we're not goingto do that, because I'm very,
you know, clearly, I have apodcast and I'm very vocal and
so I'm like, well, you know, ifthey have, if they have
questions, I'll answer them, butI'm not going to have them just
(25:15):
like stumble upon me, right?
I'm not.
Laura (25:20):
I'm not like oh yeah, everybody's mom is my buddy on
Facebook.
No, if they're like my actualfriend in real life, that can
happen, but that's like 5% ofthem maybe.
Ellecia (25:40):
Uh huh, yep% of them maybe.
Uh-huh, yep, yep, yep, yep,Amazing, amazing, um, speaking
of people moving in together andpeople living together and um,
all the things that come with it, can you talk about the
importance of like, like,compatibility, like
(26:01):
communication, but also justcompatibility?
Laura (26:05):
So there are so many kinds of compatibility that go
into living together and we as aculture do not think about them
.
We we talk to people aboutfinding your happily ever after
and like being swept off yourfeet and people being supposed
to be your best friend but alsoyour like sexual zenith.
(26:25):
But we do not talk to peopleabout liking things at a similar
level of messiness as oneanother and we do not talk to
people about liking things at asimilar level of messiness as
one another.
And we do not talk to peopleabout having similar values
around finances as one another.
And we do not talk to peopleabout wanting similar levels of
(26:48):
having guests over as oneanother.
And those three things are likethe biggest indicators of
whether or not you'll hateliving together.
Because if one of you is asocial butterfly who wants
friends over twice a week anddoesn't care if the house is a
mess or not when that happens,and the other one wants the
(27:09):
house neat as a pin when peoplecome over because you can't see
their dirty clutter, shame.
And also really isn't thatsocial in the first place.
Like they'll go out andsocialize with people if they
need to, but like for peopleover the house.
They don't want that more thanonce a month.
You're going to have a bad time.
It's not going to go well.
(27:31):
That's going to be veryuncomfortable and it's going to
become very uncomfortable withinthose first three months.
It's not going to be good.
There's going to be fights,it's going to be bad, and
sometimes those two people canhave a partner in between them
who could go either way.
On both of those things they'remay be really social, just like
(27:54):
the person who wants peopleover twice a month, but they're
twice a week rather.
But they're really happy goingout twice a week.
They don't need anyone in yourspace.
They'd rather their space bekind of empty, like it just be
theirs.
Yeah, but they want to besocial that often and they like
their space to be really neat,like the person who needs it to
(28:15):
be perfectly neat when anyonecomes in.
And so you got that person inthe middle going.
I'm upset with both of you why?
And the three of them aretrying to live together and our
culture also puts a lot of theonus of housekeeping on people
socialized as women, and whenyou combine all of that you can
(28:39):
get into some perfect stormterritory, especially if it's a
man as the hinge and women onboth ends of that arguing about
frequency and cleaning.
Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
If you reverse the genders,it's still equally bad, because
then you've got a woman in themiddle going and you guys are
expecting me to make you listsof how often to do something and
(29:01):
why, and neither of you isfollowing them and I can't
figure out the expectations forhow to do this and what is wrong
with you.
I love you both, but I will getboth of you.
(29:23):
No, uh-huh, and just genderedexpectations around household
tasks and people not havingunpacked them, and gendered
expectations around calendarsand people not having unpacked
them were in the top two.
Complaints around people movingin together, especially if it
was a third, which is in giantscare quotes moving in with a
(29:44):
couple especially, but reallyany three people moving in
together, because if you're in aposition where there was
someone keeping a calendar fortwo people and then a third
person moves in and they're usedto maintaining all their own
stuff, but combining thesethings is hard because one of
these people isn't reallypulling their weight on that end
(30:07):
.
Yeah, figuring out the newconfiguration gets tricky.
Is the person who's been doingthe maintaining your partner or
your meta.
How are you going to blend this?
There's a lot of interpersonaldynamics that come into it, and
there's a lot of socialexpectation dynamics that come
into it and a lot of thesesocial expectation dynamics are
(30:31):
about people who are socializedas women running families, doing
kin keeping, doing calendarkeeping, calendar keeping for
themselves, their spouses, theirchildren.
But if you both want tomaintain polyamorous
relationships that are outsideof that dyadic unit, you should
have split that up at some point.
(30:51):
You should each be maintainingyour own thing.
You should both be aware up atsome point.
You should each be maintainingyour own thing.
You should both be aware ofwhat the kid's needs and
calendar are independently.
If someone is in charge of thekid's calendar, the other person
should be doing some additionalhousehold tasks to sort of
balance that out.
And yes, I'm saying should Idon't love the word should, but
I'm absolutely using it here begood to one another, please, for
(31:14):
the love of all that's holdinganyway.
So yeah, there are things thatlike really had better happen if
you want to maintain thesethings in some equilibrium, and
a third person entering canreally shine a light on them.
If the third person isn't partof that dynamic, or if the third
(31:34):
person is of one gender or theother, it suddenly makes it
really apparent because they'llwalk in and they'll go.
(31:54):
Oh, i'm't, but I'm used todoing all this work because I
lived alone.
All of us should do all thiswork.
Let's have a conversation abouthow we split the chores yeah
yeah, and that's not even tomention finances and that
everyone keeps them differentlyand that some people come from a
(32:15):
place where, either because ofhaving been well off or because
of poverty, they have a verydifferent relationship to money
or whether or not you pay peopleback one by one for things, or
like what's a shared expense andwhat's not a shared expense,
(32:39):
which varies so enormously,because for some people it's
like well, it's paying for thedog food right?
is the dog everyone's dog.
Is the child of the coupleeveryone's child, because this
person's moving in and has nowbeen given permission to like
send the child to their roomright?
Is the permission to send thechild to their room the moment
(33:01):
where this person becomes aparent, right or?
Ellecia (33:04):
is the moment the financial right or is the?
Laura (33:07):
moment where they become a parent and share the financial
burden.
The moment where they also get avote on like medical problems
or is that only the moment afteryou go and do legal paperwork
that, like, they have medicalpowers paperwork so that they
can also take the kid to thehospital, and only after that do
they also pay for things, right, like, and there's all these
(33:31):
million different thresholdsthat you could consider it, and
people have made all of thesedifferent choices and you have
to decide what works for yourfamily.
Yeah, but so many people don'twant to talk about so many
dimensions of this or only wantto talk about it after there's a
fight about some aspect of it.
(33:51):
Yeah, it's scary, right, youonly want to chat about it after
somebody pays for a bigvacation on a credit card that
someone else can see and they goyou bought what.
Ellecia (34:04):
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Laura (34:06):
And they're like well, but we said that dating was on
that card.
That's not a date, that's afour-day trip.
Ellecia (34:14):
yeah, wait a minute to some people.
Laura (34:18):
That's an obvious distinction.
And to some people, no, that'sa date, we talked about it.
You took a two-day overnightwith that person and you put
that on the card.
That was gas and a 75campground fee, right, and like,
yeah, these are realisticconversations that people who
(34:40):
are sharing money have.
Yeah, and so the vast majorityof people who shared finances in
my study did not completelyshare finances.
They partially shared finances.
It was either that couples whopreviously shared finances kept
sharing them and someone elsehad a separate bank account and
(35:01):
they decided what else was ashared expense and split them,
or that they had a householdbank account into which
everybody put some money whetherthat was a set dollar amount or
a set percentage of theirincome and then they paid
household bills out of that.
Right, it was almost never thateveryone had pooled all of
(35:22):
their money into one account.
That would be so scary.
Some people were doing it.
It was just a very smallpercentage and it was almost
always like polyfidelitous,long-term units sure, sure, yeah
, that makes sense, yeah andlike a few people had gone.
Everyone has completely separatefinances, which I also
(35:44):
understand yeah, yeah, that's,that's what we do.
Ellecia (35:48):
But we, um, we were my husband and I were both married
previously to and had like therewas financial abuse for both of
us, and so for when we gottogether, we were like, nope, we
will not be sharing ourfinances, you pay for that, I'll
pay for this.
And then, as other people showup, we're like you pay for that,
you pay for that, I'll pay forthis.
Laura (36:09):
People with more roommates with multiple
marriages and with lower incometend to keep money separate, and
the higher your income goes,the fewer people are involved,
and the fewer times folks havebeen married, the more likely
they are to pool them.
Those were the factors thatcorrelated.
Ellecia (36:30):
That makes sense, that makes so much sense.
Laura (36:33):
But I thought it was interesting that all of those
factors correlated um uh-huh,yeah, it's fascinating, uh,
seeing how, how other people dothings.
Ellecia (36:45):
I mean that's why I started this podcast.
I was like there's lots ofresources now, um, but I every
time I'm reading a book orlistening to a podcast, I'm like
cool, great advice.
But how'd you figure it outRight?
What did you do?
What really happened?
Laura (36:58):
I want to know what other people are doing Right, cause,
like the community part, thepart where we aren't alone, is
one of the most important piecesto maintain our sanity and like
when I was writing the financeschapter when lived in a triad,
we did the like we take apercentage of our income and put
it into a shared account tocover the things we had agreed
(37:20):
were household expenses, and sofor us that included kid
expenses, because we were allraising the kids together.
But a lot of people who Italked to were like, oh, kid
expenses are not shared expensesbecause fewer than everyone in
the household is a parent.
And I was like I don't think Icould handle living in a
(37:40):
household where not everyone ispaying for kids who are living
here, because, like what do youthink the children pay for
themselves?
Right, it's community, we're alltaking care of them, sure, but
I understand when I listened topeople's explanations and I
(38:03):
noted down the way that peopleexplained it, but for me
personally that would not haveworked.
But so the section on taking apercentage of your income and
putting it in, other people haddone very similar to what we did
.
So that section is likecombined of what we did and what
other people did.
Ellecia (38:20):
Yeah, solid advice.
Laura (38:23):
Because it does work even from when you have like no
money to when people are makinga lot of money.
It is very transferable.
Ellecia (38:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Laura (38:36):
If, um, if people are considering um transitioning to
like having a having a polyhousehold, um, what, what advice
or what conversations would yousay they should definitely do
first, I think having honestconversations about how you're
(39:02):
actually living now and whetherit's reflective of how you want
to live in terms of likemessiness and how often you cook
at home, like messiness and howoften you cook at home, and
because sometimes people aren'tcooking at home because they're
living in like an apartment witha shitty kitchen and they've
got four roommates and so theycan never get into the kitchen
(39:22):
to cook, but in an ideal worldthey'd be cooking at home five
nights a week, and so beinghonest about stuff like that
matters right.
Ellecia (39:31):
Yeah.
Laura (39:32):
But so things like that about how messy you actually are
, about whether or not you arethe person who, in an ideal
world, would never clean abathroom again, because if every
single one of you is thatperson, then you all need to be
in a certain amount ofacceptance that whoever is
cleaning the bathroom is goingto be resentful every time it's
cleaned, and so you may have aless clean bathroom than any
(39:54):
other room in your house.
I'm not saying that it won'tget cleaned, but I'm saying, if
the rest of your house isgetting cleaned twice a week,
the bathroom might be on a oncea week or once every 10 days
schedule and, like, as the childof a neat freak, that might be
a little hard for me personally,it might be the right schedule
(40:18):
for you and yours.
So consider it Right.
Yeah, and so like there aresome of these points that like
you need to actually talk about.
Talk about actual work and sleepschedules, because if some of
you work overnights, but not allof you, that's surmountable.
It's less surmountable if someof you are children.
(40:41):
It's doable, but it's real hard, right?
The person who works overnightsis used to sleeping with
earplugs and eye masks andwhatever.
Maybe it's manageable, maybeit's not.
Have realistic conversationsabout work schedules, about
where it is you intend to live,how it would work, the like
(41:05):
practical nitty-gritty are thethings that need to get
discussed before, not only after, you're signing a lease.
Do not sign a lease before youhave some idea of how it would
actually work.
And then, on top of that, havesome comfort with everybody who
(41:25):
is going to be living in thebuilding.
If there's anyone in the groupwho you could not spend a whole
evening with by yourself,consider not doing it.
Uh-huh, because, like if youneed to feel sometimes that you
(41:46):
need to fully escape, you'regoing to get uncomfortable in
your own home and it's not worthit.
Ellecia (41:53):
Yeah.
Laura (41:54):
And, like everybody, gets that a couple times a year
because that's just family,that's just life right and these
people will be your family bythe time you're done living with
them.
But you want to choose familyappropriately.
You don't feel that way all thetime.
Relationships should beadditive to our lives, not
(42:17):
stressful.
It's attractive.
Ellecia (42:20):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yes, yes, take off the love
blinders and get down to thepractical.
Laura (42:27):
Right, remove the rose-colored glasses about your
partner and look at everyoneinvolved, because sometimes you
love your partner but they'resuper messy and you know that's
going to make you insane inthree weeks.
Also, if possible, do littletrial runs, right?
(42:48):
Oh yeah, stay at each other'splaces for two weeks straight.
Yeah, see how much you makeeach other crazy at the end of
two weeks.
Yeah, make each other crazy atthe end of two weeks, yeah,
especially if it's smaller spacethan you're actually going to
occupy, because it will pointout all of those little
difficult whatevers and it'sbetter to know what they are.
(43:15):
Yeah, and like, get ahead of it.
Yes, the trial run will never beideal, because you will not
have all of both of your stuffin the same place.
But talk to each other.
If you're planning to move intosomeone's space, talk to them
about how you're going to makeit a space that is for all of
you, right, because you don'twant to be a guest moving into
someone else's space.
You want it to be your spacetoo.
Ellecia (43:42):
Like, how will it?
And the flip side of that ishaving someone moving into your
space and now, all of a sudden,it's not my, just mine, and I
have to move things and I haveto change things.
Laura (43:54):
You're going to cope with that?
If you're someone who getsanxiety, how will you cope with
the anxiety that is triggered bythat, because it is a loss of
control?
Yeah, yeah big time, but likeit's one, that's often worth it,
mm-hmm yeah, so good yeah.
(44:18):
So I guess those are my like bigconversations that people
should have and if there arechildren involved, make sure you
have explicit conversationsabout what makes a person a
parent, about what steps you'retaking if you're not considering
someone a parent right.
What is their role, what thingsare they and aren't they
allowed to do?
Because if someone isn't aparent but is an adult that
(44:42):
lives in your house, they'regoing to be having interactions
with your children and figuringout what those interactions are
and aren't allowed to look like.
Being more explicit is betterthan not.
Ellecia (44:57):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, that one's rough becausea lot of it feels like I don't
know the answer until I'vecrossed that bridge.
Sure, right, like, oh wait, Ididn't know that this was even
possible.
Laura (45:12):
sure, I thought you guys would always get along, right,
but saying, like hey, yeah,let's figure out a ceiling and a
floor, yes, and then if, onceyou're here and we're at the
floor, we want to move theceiling higher, we can talk
about that together.
But let's set a startingceiling and a floor At least
(45:35):
gives you space to move in.
Yeah, because humans areterrible predictors of how
they're going to feel Really are.
Yeah, because humans areterrible predictors of how
they're gonna feel like reallyjust scientifically, like every
study shows that we're badpredictors of how we're gonna
feel.
But starting somewhere, so thatthen we have somewhere to move
from.
Because if we go in with noexpectation, it's significantly
(46:00):
worse, because otherwise youwalk in and just everyone is
stepping on triggers andlandmines for other people and
like your partner, who's movingin, who's not intending to
parent, feels like they're beingasked to babysit constantly, or
you feel like they're takingyour role as a parent or what
(46:22):
have you right?
Or you feel like they're notdoing enough and they're taking
the kid's side against you andundermining you while you're
parenting right.
So having some of these awkward, explicit conversations ahead
of time to minimize some of thatimpact.
Or, if you don't have kids butyou think you might want to in
(46:43):
the next couple of years, beingopen about it Yep, yep, because
going hey, I'm happy to have youlive here, but we're thinking
of having kids in the next two,three years.
There is space in the house forboth those things to happen,
but I need you to know, becauseif you don't intend to parent
(47:03):
with us in two or three years,there will be a kid here and
that's going to affect ourrelationship.
Ellecia (47:11):
Yeah.
Laura (47:12):
We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but I want
you to be aware so that you'renot settling into a blissful,
child free future while we arementally preparing for a future
where we have kids and maybe youhave them with us.
Ellecia (47:28):
Right.
Laura (47:29):
And again, people can change their minds a hundred
times while you're in it.
I thought I was never going tohave kids, and then I had a kid,
yep.
And then we collectivelydecided to have a second one,
right?
Ellecia (47:44):
Uh-huh.
Laura (47:44):
And so I would not change that.
But if you'd asked me 15 yearsago if I was going to be a like
happy mom of two kids, I wouldhave said probably not.
Ellecia (47:58):
Right.
Laura (48:01):
And so Right and so Yep, being straightforward about your
intended plans so that they'renot totally blindsiding, and
having every few month check-insabout whether or not those
plans have changed, can bereally valuable.
And like they don't need to beas formal as like we sit down
(48:23):
and have a radar every month but, you know, every three to six
months going hey, I still havethese big life plans, my job is
still this.
It looks like I might get apromotion in the next six months
.
That would be cool.
If I do, this is what I want todo with that extra money is
(48:44):
helpful to the household.
It keeps people in the loop.
Ellecia (48:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's really important.
Laura (48:52):
Just just keep talking, just keep talking, just keep
telling them all the cool thingspeople told you that you wrote
down where they can readmonogamy in this economy,
finances, child rearing andother practical concerns of
polyamory.
Ellecia (49:08):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Is there anything I haven'tasked you that you want to share
?
Laura (49:14):
I mean I feel like we've hit on most of it.
I think it's important to notethat there are so many slowly
advancing ways to create formalsupports for your parenting
structure, sort of state andjurisdiction.
(49:38):
So folks should talk to localfamily attorneys if they're
already doing this and want someway to note down what they're
doing.
But if you're in a long-termpoly family and you have
children and you want a legalnotation of your family
structure, see a local familyattorney.
(49:59):
In many states there are waysto give all of the parents who
are parenting some degree ofrecognition that gives a certain
amount of protection inbreakups, a certain amount of
protection in the case of theunfortunate death of the parents
, right, and so making sure thatthese things are in place can
be really protective for yourchildren and for your family.
Ellecia (50:20):
Yeah, yeah, beautiful, beautiful.
I love that.
It's really important, yeah,amazing.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for writing the bookand thank you for coming and
sharing it with us.
Laura (50:36):
Thank you for having me, if folks are interested.
So the book is available forpre-order until august 21st and
then it'll be out in the worldand you can just have it in your
sweaty little fingertips, justlike mine.
Um, yes, so it can be hadwherever books are sold.
You can ask your localbookstore to get it for you
(50:57):
anywhere in the us, the uk, orcan.
Yeah, and it's called Monogamyin this Economy, finances, child
Rearing and Other PracticalConcerns of Polyamory.
Ellecia (51:09):
I love it Amazing, fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
I'm very excited, of course.
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