December 26, 2024 • 53 mins
Are you grappling with jealousy in your non-monogamous relationships? Curious about the differences between solo polyamory and relationship anarchy? In this eye-opening episode, I'm joined by the legendary Kathy Labriola, a counselor, nurse, and author with decades of experience guiding polyamorous and non-monogamous folks.
Mastering Jealousy
- Understanding why jealousy arises and how it differs from envy or coveting
- Practical strategies for addressing the root causes of jealousy
Solo Polyamory vs. Relationship Anarchy
- Exploring the nuances between these relationship styles
- How different approaches impact emotional dynamics
Building Trust and Communication
- Techniques for creating more honest, deep communication in your relationships
- Strategies for emotional growth and embracing openness
Coming Out as Polyamorous
- Kathy's unique "platform release strategy" for navigating this process
- Balancing personal authenticity with potential consequences
About Kathy Labriola:
Kathy Labriola is a counselor, nurse, and author with extensive experience in guiding polyamorous and non-monogamous individuals. Her recently updated book, Love and Abundance: A Counselor's Advice on Open Relationships, offers a wealth of wisdom gained from decades in the field.
www.kathylabriola.com
Whether you're dealing with feelings of insecurity, navigating new relationship dynamics, or simply curious about the intricacies of non-monogamous relationships, this episode provides valuable perspectives to enhance your understanding and practice of ethical non-monogamy.
Join us for this thought-provoking discussion that challenges conventional notions of love and relationships, encouraging listeners to explore what authenticity and connection truly mean to them in the context of non-monogamy.
Don't forget to leave a review if you enjoy this episode – it's the best way to help the podcast grow and reach more people interested in exploring non-monogamous relationships!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ellecia (00:00):
Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non-monogamous relationship
coach, and today, on Nope, we'reNot Monogamous I'm joined by
the legendary Kathy Labriola, acounselor, a nurse and an author
who's been guiding polyamorousand non-monogamous people for
decades.
The updated second edition ofher book Love in Abundance A
(00:20):
Counselor's Advice on OpenRelationships, was just released
a couple of weeks ago, and it'spacked with decades of
polyamorous wisdom.
So today we're going to talkabout mastering jealousy.
You can learn why jealousyarises, how it differs from envy
or coveting and how to addressits root causes.
We're also talking about solopolyamory versus relationship
anarchy, so there's like a wholediverse relationship style that
(00:44):
can really impact emotionaldynamics.
So we're going to look at that,plus some strategies for
emotional growth, discover waysto build trust, embrace openness
and create, like more honestcommunication, more deep
communication in yourrelationships.
And we're also going to talkabout coming out as polyamorous
or non-monogamous.
Kathy shares a really uniqueplatform release strategy for
(01:07):
navigating this process.
You'll want to check it out.
So, whether you are dealingwith feelings of insecurity,
navigating new relationships,curious about the distinctions
between jealousy and envy, allthe different things, this
episode has some game-changingperspectives for you.
And if you enjoy this episode orany of the episodes.
(01:27):
Do me a really huge favor andleave a review.
This is the number one way fora podcast to grow and get
noticed by more people.
You would be making a reallyhuge impact on the world with
this one little tiny thing and Iwould appreciate you thing and
(01:57):
I would appreciate you enjoy.
Bye, yay, awesome, uh, I'm.
I'm excited that you're hereagain.
Uh, get rid of me.
So that was probably like uh 11episodes ago or so, which is
great, cause I come out everytwo weeks, wow.
Kathy (02:16):
You are busy, a busy little bee, that's great.
Ellecia (02:19):
Well, I mean not as busy as you.
Kathy (02:21):
you're writing books as busy as you.
You're writing books.
That's true.
I keep, for some reason.
I keep thinking I have more tosay and then I have to write
another book.
My only reason for writingbooks is I only write books when
I've waited for years forsomeone else to write that book
and no one does, and I'm annoyed.
So I think, well, why didn'tsomeone else write this, so I?
(02:43):
I don't have to.
Ellecia (02:44):
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Well, I'll just say the thingsthen, right.
Kathy (02:49):
Just wishing someone else would do it.
Luckily, there are lots morebooks coming out about various
types of consensuallynon-monogamous relationships, so
it's a very exciting time thelast few years there's been
actually in the last two orthree years there's been more
books coming out about polyamoryand non-monogamy than I've ever
(03:11):
seen, and all the time I'vebeen involved in this, yeah.
Ellecia (03:15):
It's a long time.
It's amazing we have so manyresources now and also still not
enough.
Kathy (03:24):
There's definitely room for more.
So I'm waiting for you to writeyour book.
So I'll buy that book as soonas it comes out.
Ellecia (03:31):
Maybe next year.
Okay, I want an autographedcopy.
All right, it's yours.
You're first on the list, sothis is.
Is this a second edition ofLove and Abundance?
Yes, it is Amazing, amazing.
So Love and Abundance ACounselor's Advice on Open
(03:52):
Relationships.
I read this book in probably2014, I think, so this was
really fun to see to a new, anew, updated um version.
I'm curious what?
What was your favorite, uh like, update or favorite thing to
(04:16):
add?
Kathy (04:18):
well, the, you know, I added a whole introductory
chapter because so much hashappened in the world of
polyamory and non-monogamy sinceI wrote the book initially in
2008.
So in just you know, 15 years,an awful lot has changed, and so
(04:41):
an update was.
That was the only reason anupdate was needed, that all this
positive change had happenedsince then.
So that part was my favorite towrite to say well, when I wrote
the first book, I wasinterviewed on a lot of radio
shows and by journalists forprint newspapers and magazines,
(05:05):
you know, and by journalists for, you know, print newspapers and
magazines, because that's allwe had at the time, you know,
podcasts and other things, andonline, you know, newspapers and
things hadn't really beeninvented yet.
So I was interviewed on a lot ofradio shows and by a lot of,
you know, newspapers andmagazines and the reporters.
I would have to spend the firsthalf of the interview
explaining what consensualnon-monogamy and polyamory were,
(05:30):
because they had not really hada clue about it and they almost
always confused it withnon-consensual polygamy, where
women are forced into marriage,whether they like it or not,
with men who have multiple wives.
So there was a total lack ofunderstanding of the big
(05:51):
difference between those twothings by these reporters, for
you know, they always said I wasencouraging adultery and, you
know, destroying the family andall these other things which I'm
(06:13):
afraid I don't have the powerto do, even if I wanted to.
They were giving me credit orblame for a lot of things that
are kind of out of my control.
Ellecia (06:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I found that really fascinating.
Actually reading in yourintroduction about how much um
and negativity you faced in inreleasing that book and
interviewing and and talking topeople about it.
And I'll tell you that was oneof my biggest fears in starting
(06:44):
this podcast was like, man, I'mlike, can I handle that kind of
that kind of backlash or outcome?
And that actually hasn'thappened.
So I just want to thank you forseriously paving a path here.
Kathy (07:01):
Well, there's certainly still plenty of haters out there
on the Internet that want toyou know, email you or call you
or threaten you and everythingelse, but it's not remotely like
it was back then.
Yeah, yeah, I think a lot lessscary for people now to try to
(07:25):
navigate this type ofnon-traditional relationship and
they're not nearly in as muchdanger, both physically and
psychologically, of facingrejection by their families and
fears of losing their jobs ifthey come out at work.
And that is all still out there, but not nearly as pronounced
(07:48):
as before.
Ellecia (07:49):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I mean it's definitely still afear that a lot of people have.
I'm curious when you're talkingto people about that, what,
like, what kind of advice do yougive people when they're
worried about being rejected bytheir families or losing their
jobs because of beingpolyamorous or non-monogamous?
Kathy (08:15):
well, I usually encourage them to keep their
non-monogamous relationshipsprivate at first, until they
learned how to really engage inthis type of relationship
successfully and in a healthyway, and until they're more sure
(08:38):
that this is the path theyreally want in their lives,
before they decide to come outat work or come out to their
families or even, you know, tojust be a little more public
about it, because many people dotry this type of relationship
(09:00):
and decide eventually it's notreally for them or that it's
something they want to do now,but it's not like a long-term,
lifelong relational orientationfor them, and so I usually
encourage people to really seehow it works for them, first to
work out their own problemsaround it, and then, if they
(09:23):
decide this is really what theywant long term and that they
really are up for it, then isthe time to start coming out to
the people around them.
I especially think this isimportant if you're considering,
for instance, including morethan one partner in your life
(09:45):
publicly, like if you're goingto be bringing that partner to
work-related functions andevents, or if you're going to be
bringing that partner orpartners home to meet family.
I've seen too many people gothrough thinking they're madly
in love with a new person andbringing everybody home to meet
mom, and then, like a monthlater, the whole thing blows up
(10:06):
and breaks.
They break up and then it'sthey're left trying to explain
that to their family.
So I I usually say any newrelationship wait at least a
year before, like introducingthem to family or work or your
or your coworkers, or reallybeing more public so that you
don't have to deal with it.
(10:27):
You have to feel pretty certainthat person is going to be in
your life longer term beforewanting to present the
relationships uh to family andco-workers and friends yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes alot of sense.
Ellecia (10:43):
you really got to kind of pick your battles Like is
this, is this something you wantto really go to war over?
And like like managing, likeone thing, um, especially if
you've been monogamous andyou're new to non-monogamy,
you're navigating all of theemotions that come and and like
the logical parts, likenavigating calendars and
(11:06):
schedules and stuff.
That takes a lot of bandwidth,and then also trying to educate
people and explain to them aboutyour choices and defend
yourself takes another whole lotof bandwidth.
And so then you're starting topile those things on top of each
other.
Kathy (11:23):
Well, yeah, and to make sure everyone's on board.
I mean, I've said I've seen somany people who are in a
marriage or, you know,cohabiting relationship with
someone.
They're bringing anotherpartner into the situation and
the partner at home may not be ahundred percent okay with
things yet, and yet then you'reintroducing this other person to
(11:48):
your friends and family andeverybody and your own partner
is maybe extremely uncomfortablewith that level of like, having
to deal with that level ofpublic relations, you know.
Then they're having to defendyour choice of doing this when
they may not really be okay withit.
So that's really puttingsomeone in a very difficult
(12:10):
position that they are havingtheir own issues of jealousy and
feeling displaced and feelinghurt by this, and yet then
they're having to put up apublic front of like oh yeah,
everything's great.
You know, we're perfectly happywith this.
So don't put a pre-existingpartner in that position unless
(12:32):
they're really ready for thislevel of disclosure.
Ellecia (12:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really great advice
actually, because you know weoften say like go as slow as the
slowest partner.
You know we often say like goas slow as the slowest partner,
but that, yeah, is kind of kindof throwing throwing your person
under the bus when they want tobe supportive of you and yet
they're having to I don't knowBe more supportive than they
(12:58):
naturally would be.
Kathy (13:00):
Right and they just sort of fake it when they're not
really quite there yet.
So yeah, well, and I also thinkit's very important to think
through the potentialconsequences, because there's a
lot of pressure on us within thepoly community to be like
totally out there and public,but some people face way more
(13:23):
consequences than others.
You know there's a there can bea very high price to pay for
being out of the closet.
I mean this is especially truefor people who are either
working class or poor, or peoplewho are people of color, who
really may face way moreconsequences because they have
less privileges and lessresources.
If they lose their jobs becauseof it, or if someone threatens
(13:51):
to take away custody of theirchildren, if they have to go to
court to fight that, they don'tmaybe have the money or
resources for attorneys andthey're going to be at much more
risk in a court situation thansomeone else.
So it's important to thinkthrough what are the potential
costs and consequences.
Are you ready and able tomanage that, or is that going to
(14:14):
destroy your relationship andpossibly, you know, create
severe financial hardship foryou?
Ellecia (14:21):
And.
Kathy (14:21):
I think a lot of times people aren't really thinking
those things through for you,and I think a lot of times
people aren't really thinkingthose things through.
You know there's I sometimes saythere's a price to pay for
coming out of the closet.
There's a price for staying inthe closet, too, in that you
have to then be possibly lyingto other people, like your
family or your co-workers, oryou have to be sneaking around,
(14:42):
or you know you're having to bedoing some of the things that
we're trying to avoid by beingopenly polyamorous.
So you know there's an internaland emotional price to pay, and
you may be harming the peoplethat you're in relationship with
by feeling like you have tohide them and then they start to
feel like they're a secret orthat you're ashamed, or you know
(15:04):
that could create a lot ofissues too.
So both figuring out whatyou're, what you're facing if
you do come out further, comeout more out of the closet and
figuring out what you areactually going to lose by
staying in the closet is alsoall that is very important yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's.
Ellecia (15:23):
that's extremely.
It's like balancing, finding,balancing the, or weighing the
pros and cons, the costs and theconsequences of whatever
decisions you make Is there.
I'm curious if you have a waythat you recommend that people
(15:43):
do that equation, Like how dothey figure out, like, what
could happen on either side?
Kathy (15:52):
Well, you're always making guesses to some extent,
because you can't 100% predicthow your family members are
going to respond or how yourcoworkers are going to respond
or how your co-workers are goingto respond.
I usually recommend the same,what I call the platform release
strategy, which is somethingthat, as queer people, we used
(16:19):
to use back in the day, say backin the 1960s and 70s and I'm
old enough to remember thosedays we used to use what we
called the platform releasestrategy, which is you release
that information on a very smallplatform in order to gauge the
safety of coming out, and inthose days it was really
literally a matter of life anddeath.
(16:40):
You could be beaten and killedfor being gay and that still
could happen, but it's a lotless likely now than it was then
.
So are we going to release thatinformation the information
that you're queer or, in thiscase, that you're poly to a very
small platform, and usuallythat if it's your family, I
always recommend trying to pickthe family member that you
(17:01):
believe is the most likely to beaccepting and tell them first
and you can swear them tosecrecy and to get their advice
on whether they think the restof the family is going to disown
you or not, because theyprobably know better than you do
(17:22):
.
They probably are going to beable to be a little more
objective about it.
So come out only to the personthat you think is most likely to
be supportive.
Same thing with, say, friends.
Come out to a friend that youfeel is the most likely to be
unjudgmental and accepting andthen get their opinion on
(17:43):
whether there are other friendsyou could tell.
Similarly, at work, who's theco-worker that you think is most
likely to be understanding andaccepting.
And so it's the platform releasestrategy, where you release it
on a very small platform.
If that goes well, then you canconsider releasing it on a
slightly larger platform.
(18:04):
You can consider releasing iton a slightly larger platform.
Yeah, that term is just basedon the way movie producers
decide how to release a film.
If they have a film that theydon't know if it's going to make
a lot of money or not, they'lljust release it in a few
theaters in New York, sanFrancisco, los Angeles and maybe
Chicago and see how it does.
(18:26):
And if it does makes money,they're going to release it to a
lot more theaters and then alot more theaters after that,
depending on how it does.
So it's it's kind of a strangeway of describing coming out as
probably, but it's, it's auseful metaphor.
Ellecia (18:39):
Yeah, yeah, I love that the platform release method.
That's fantastic, just kind ofgauging, gauging, gauging the
response, right, and if you comeout about being poly to the
(19:10):
person in your family that youthink is the most liberal or
progressive or accepting, andthey're like what?
You're out of your freakingmind, you're crazy, you're going
to hell or whatever.
Kathy (19:15):
Then you go, okay.
Well then there's nobody elsein my family.
I'm going to tell about thisanytime soon.
Right right, there we go.
Now I have an idea.
But if they're like totallyaccepting and they say, oh yeah,
I think the family can handleit, they'll freak out at first.
Ellecia (19:24):
But they'll be, you know, they'll calm down and be
fine.
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
That's, that's great, amazing,amazing, um I I'm curious.
You had, um, you and your inyour book.
You described like thedifferent um relationship
(19:48):
structures, different, different, uh, ways of doing polyamory.
And there's a question I get alot, which is, um, the
difference between solopolyamory and relationship
anarchy.
And you had one in there also amultiple non-primary
(20:08):
relationships, and so thosethree I think a lot of people
mix up with each other or kindof confuse, and so I'm curious
for you, how would you, howwould you just like, what's the
difference between them?
Kathy (20:25):
well, I invented the term , uh, multiple non-primary
relationships, uh, I don't know,45 years ago or something so,
and I only invented the thatterm along with some other terms
, because no terms seemed to bein existence, or I couldn't find
any anyway.
(20:46):
So I just made up thingsbecause it seemed like it
described a particular style ofrelationship.
In about 10 years ago, someoneelse, I don't know who, invented
this term solo poly, and thosetwo things are very similar.
Solo poly is, I think, a betterterm, and I wish I had thought
(21:07):
of it 45 years ago, but I didn't, so someone else did, thank
goodness.
And I think those things arevery similar.
What they involve is someone whois not seeking a primary
relationship.
They're not seeking.
They don't want to livetogether, get married and be in.
(21:29):
They don't want to be part of acouple.
They want to be single but havefabulous love affairs and have,
you know, love, affection,emotional intimacy, sex,
companionship.
You know they want all thethings that people naturally
(21:49):
want out of relationships, butthey're not looking to jump on
that relationship escalator andgo towards living together,
getting married and really beingpart of a couple that is making
decisions together as a couple.
They want to be independent.
They want to be single andluckily now we have that option.
(22:11):
You know, in the past it wasjust always assumed if you were
even dating someone, you were onthe way to like this whole, you
know whole trajectory whichwould ultimately end in getting
married.
So that's not really whatsomeone who's either solo, poly
or seeking multiple non-primaryrelationships is looking for,
(22:32):
and the good news is that that'ssomething that people can ask
for but need to be very explicitabout.
Can ask for, but need to be veryexplicit about and be very
careful that they're fishing inthe right pond, that they're
getting together with otherpeople in relationship that want
the same thing, and oftentimessomeone who's solo, poly or in
(22:58):
this multiple non-primaryrelationship model of polyamory,
they often will get involvedwith someone who's already
married, so they're not lookingfor that, they've already got
that at home.
Or they'll get together withother people who are also very
(23:19):
much engaged in other things inlife which preclude them from
really seeking a primaryrelationship.
Usually these are folks who areessentially married to
something else.
They are either married totheir work, they're very, very
invested in their careers, orthey're very passionate about
(23:42):
being artists or musicians, orthey're a single parent raising
children and they're just veryfocused on that, not really
wanting to have a primaryrelationship, or they're very
devoted to political activism orsome kind of social change work
, so they're really just notoriented towards a primary
(24:04):
relationship.
Ellecia (24:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense.
And then what, excuse me, what,what?
What about relationship anarchy?
Like it feels similar, butmaybe not.
Kathy (24:25):
Well, I think it may look similar from the outside, but
just to the casual observer itmay look similar, but with
relationship anarchy, eachrelationship is allowed to rise
(24:46):
to its own natural level.
Each relationship is allowed toevolve organically to whatever
seems right for thatrelationship.
And that often is not the sameas solo poly.
It often involves someonedeveloping some very long-term
(25:08):
and committed relationships.
They're just not reallypromising anyone that it will
and that's not what they'reseeking as like the one true
path of relationship.
They're not entering anyrelationship thinking this is
going to lead to living togetheror marriage or a committed
(25:32):
relationship.
They're entering a relationship, have a very open mind about
how this relationship may evolveand they don't want to try to
force it into any particularform.
More of a shorter-termexperience, like where they may
(26:09):
be engaged in that model for afew years but then eventually
decide they really want a morehierarchical relationship, in
that they want one person tobecome more of a primary
relationship.
Again, for some people itreally is a long-term
relationship.
Energy can be a very long-termrelational orientation and it
can be a long-term lifestyle.
(26:29):
My experience is that for a lotmore people it is a
shorter-term thing.
That is really a very rewardingand fulfilling relational model
for them for some period oftime, but not forever.
Ellecia (26:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense to me.
A lot of people ask me aboutthose things like solo, poly,
relationship, anarchy, and thenlike, but isn't that just dating
, right?
Like what's the differencebetween that and dating?
And I'm usually like well,dating to look for a monogamous
(27:08):
partner, or versus dating to tomeet people and continue to be
polyamorous are definitely twodifferent things.
And um, and it seems like a lotof people use those terms when
that's not actually what theymean- Use the terms like
relationship, anarchy.
Uh-huh.
Kathy (27:27):
Yeah, yes, there's kind of an ugly underbelly to a
certain segment of the polycommunity that ascribes to
relationship anarchy, and what Imean by that is that it tends
(27:49):
to be much more heterosexual menwho want relationship anarchy
as a way of evading orcommitment to any female partner
, and it often takes the form ofthem getting involved with any
(28:10):
number of women but notpromising them anything and not
being committed to anything andjust keeping them guessing and
keeping them in an experience ofextreme insecurity, of never
knowing what they can count on.
You know, can I even count on adate on Saturday night, much
(28:31):
less any kind of ongoingrelationship?
Don't you feel like every weekyou're on a like weekly lease
with this relationship?
Is it going to be over nextweek, or is someone else going
to be more important to you nextweek and I'm going to be less
important, you know, or nextmonth or whatever?
So again, I don't mean in anyway to demonize the men.
(28:53):
I've seen a few women do thesame thing.
Anyone of any gender could dothis but it does seem to be
sometimes an excuse forheterosexual men to just be
players in the old-fashionedsense, you know, of just wanting
(29:15):
to have a lot of women at theirbeck and call and not really
promising them anything or notreally being willing to make any
kind of commitment to them,which is not at all the goal of
relationship anarchy.
It's not that people inrelationship anarchy don't make
commitments to anyone, it's thatthey decide on a case-by-case
(29:36):
basis and negotiate with eachperson what level of commitment
they're going to have.
And for some men, unfortunately, and a few women, it is a way
of evading any kind ofresponsibility in relationships.
And similarly to the way somepeople who have what used to be
(29:57):
called sex addiction but is nowmore often called, you know,
compulsive sexual behavior, somepeople that have compulsive
sexual behaviors and anunhealthy and compulsive
relationship with sex will usethe cover of polyamory to act
out their addictive behaviorsand they're not really good
(30:20):
relationship partners and arelikely to harm any partner that
they get involved in.
But they'll claim I'm justbeing polyamorous.
But it leads to a lot of painand suffering.
Ellecia (30:32):
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's really importantto talk about those things,
because entirely too many peoplekind of wind up gaslighting
themselves into accepting badbehavior or behavior that isn't
at the level that they wouldlike from their relationships,
(30:54):
because, oh well, this partner,you know, they say they're a
relationship anarchist, or theysay they're polyamorous, they're
not behaving the way I thinkthat should be, but well, that's
, that's what they are.
So I guess this is what I haveto accept, and so I think it's
important to like point out that, like you know, not everybody
is behaving as lovely andethically as we would all like
(31:17):
like them to be.
Kathy (31:20):
That's very true.
I mean, I think it's importantto recognize that people who
engage in monogamousrelationships generally do so
for a mixture of healthy andunhealthy reasons, and people
who engage in polyamorousrelationships do so for a
mixture of healthy and unhealthyreasons.
We all have motivations thatare very mixed.
(31:44):
I think all of us, you know,have some woundings from our
past and from our childhood andall of these other things.
So, you know, we come torelations and we have
indoctrination from, you know,our culture and from society and
from our, uh, training andgender socialization.
So none of us, I don't think,can claim that our we're so
(32:08):
enlightened, uh, that ourmotivations for relationships
are totally clean.
You know they're mixed.
So the best we can do is reallyexamine our motives, examine
why are we feeling compelledtowards a particular relational
(32:30):
model, whether that's monogamyor whether it's polyamory, and
if it is a consensualnon-monogamy, what model of it
is most attractive to us and why?
And as long as we can be honestwith ourselves and hopefully
with our partners, about bothour healthy and unhealthy
motivations, I think we can havevery healthy relationships.
(32:53):
I just think to try to hidethat shadow side and make
believe that, oh, we're onlymotivated toward non-monogamy
because that's the mostenlightened relationship style,
or that that means we've done somuch personal growth, etc.
(33:13):
There are a lot of reasons forit and there are certainly some
people in the poly community whoare motivated by very unhealthy
needs that they probably needtherapy for rather than to mess
up other people's lives bydragging them into their
dysfunction.
Yeah, yeah yeah, absolutely uh,I mean monogamous people should
(33:37):
look at their motivations too.
You know what's driving them toreally need monogamy or want
monogamy.
It could be very, very healthy,or it could be for some, you
know, very unhealthy reasons.
Ellecia (33:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
That, like self-awareness andself-exploration.
We should all be doing it.
Kathy (34:07):
Right, I'm not judging them for being monogamous.
I just think we should belooking at our own motives and
social day as to what's actuallydriving them.
Ellecia (34:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And there was oh communication.
That was the other thing I wantto talk to you about, because
you said something in your book.
You said the two keys tosuccessfully communicating your
needs to your partners are beingwilling to admit that you've
(34:40):
guessed wrong about what youcould handle, and telling the
truth about your needs eventhough you know your partner
will not, will not or may not behappy with what you're asking
for.
And I love that quote so muchbecause it's, I think, probably
one of the biggest things that Isee in challenges for people in
(35:04):
relationships andnon-monogamous relationships and
monogamous but just is like canwe talk about the things?
Can I talk about what I want?
And then I'm always telling myclients you get to change your
mind, because when you startedthis, you said that you wanted
hierarchical polyamory uh,kitchen table.
(35:24):
You know, like you said, youlisted off the things you wanted
and then you went and hadexperiences and went oh,
actually, maybe some of thosethings aren't what I want.
You get to change your mind,you just have to talk about it.
Kathy (35:39):
That's true, very true.
I mean, I think we just have tobe humble about acknowledging
that well, this sounded great,but you know it's not really
working for me.
That well, this sounded great,but you know it's not really
working for me.
Or, especially, if you have eggon your face and you demanded
something of your partner thatyou can't deliver yourself and,
(36:00):
believe me, I've done that.
Been there, I'm sure we allhave, you know, said well, you
know, you have had unfairexpectations of your partner and
you actually can't do whatyou've asked them to do.
So all we can do is just humblyadmit that.
You know, sorry, I made amistake.
I thought this would work forme, and often that's the only
(36:23):
way you can find out if someonehas crossed your boundaries is
by having them step on your toesand go out.
That hurts.
I mean, how would we know,especially for people who are
new to non-monogamy, how couldwe possibly know how we're going
to feel about something thatwe've never experienced before?
Ellecia (36:47):
Yeah, we're.
We're really bad at guessinghow we're going to feel about
things that we haven'texperienced.
Right, and how would we?
Yes, how would we're?
We're really bad at guessinghow we're going to feel about
things that we haven'texperienced.
Kathy (36:52):
Right, and how would we?
Yes, how would we you know?
So yeah, yeah.
So, I mean, I think it's evenmore ideal if, before you
venture into polyamory for thefirst time, if you're able to be
honest about the fact that,well, this is all new territory,
this is scary.
(37:13):
I don't know what the fuck I'mdoing, and neither do my
partners probably have any ideawhat they're doing.
It helps if you have a partneror partners that have done this
for a long time, but then it'soften you're just all stumbling
around in the dark becauseyou've never done it before.
So all the more reason.
(37:33):
We need your podcast and weneed books and we need all these
great online resources that wenow have and why we need
polyamory support and discussiongroups, many of which exist all
around.
So you know, avail yourselvesof those resources.
I really encourage people to dothe homework, do the reading,
(37:55):
listen to podcasts, find out asmuch information as you can.
I mean, you wouldn't try toclimb Mount Everest without you
know.
Training for a year, you knowwith experts and really
practicing and falling down alot in a place where you're not
going to get killed, as opposedto trying to climb Mount Everest
(38:17):
and falling in the first ravineand getting killed, uh-huh,
uh-huh, and hiring a Sherpa.
There you go Lots of them.
Yeah, to help to do the heavylifting.
Yeah, because they're way moreskilled at mountain climbing
than we are.
So yes and so going to a coachlike you or going to a counselor
like me, or finding people thatyou can get help from, is
(38:40):
really very important, and ifyou're, if you're wise, you'll
do some of that before you getstarted with any kind of
polyamorous relationship.
Unfortunately, it doesn'tusually work that way.
People often stumble into itaccidentally and then go oh no,
we are lost.
What do we do?
We're lost and there are noSherpas inside.
Ellecia (39:04):
Yep, yep, yep, amazing, amazing.
I'm curious, is there?
Well, first of all, when, whendoes this edition of the book
come out?
I just came out a couple ofweeks ago.
Yes, wonderful, wonderful.
So people can just find it inall the places that you buy
books.
Kathy (39:26):
I really encourage people to either buy the book directly
from me on my website or buy itfrom bookshoporg or
indiebandorg, because those areindependent booksellers and that
small profit that exists inbookselling will go to
independent booksellers ratherthan Amazon or people we won't
(39:50):
name.
Ellecia (39:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and that, uh, you don't need
your money, right.
Kathy (39:55):
Exactly.
They don't really need thatmoney of yours, those precious
dollars that you have.
Ellecia (40:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, really, really important.
Uh, is it?
It's Kathy labriolacom, right,that's it Amazing.
Is there anything else that youwant to share that I haven't
asked you.
Kathy (40:16):
Well, one thing that I would like to share is that
people often are surprised whenthey experience jealousy.
When they experience jealousyand they often judge themselves
or their partners forexperiencing jealousy.
And I always want to encouragepeople to be gentle with
(40:43):
yourself and with your partnersbecause it's a normal, natural
response.
And people call me and say wellgosh, I was, I didn't think I
would be jealous, I thought Iwas.
So, you know, had done thepersonal growth work and I never
thought I'd be jealous.
I'm so shocked that I'm jealousand I usually respond by saying
(41:07):
well, I'm shocked that you'reshocked.
You know why wouldn't you bejealous?
(41:35):
It's a primal emotional responsethat comes from, really, that
reptilian, that ancientreptilian part of our brain that
is that fight or flight kind ofsurvival reflex.
It's a kind of primal responseto a perceived threat to our
survival.
And in relationships we do havethis feeling that our very
survival is threatened if wethink the relationship is
threatened and often therelationship is not even
threatened, but we have a verystrong belief that it is that
any other person coming into ourrelationship or being involved
(42:00):
with our partner feels like avery primal threat to us.
And the fact is that anyoutside relationship is a
potential threat.
Emphasis on the word potential,potential threat because we
this is an unknown kind ofsituation and it's a it can be
(42:28):
disruptive and destabilizing toa relationship for any number of
reasons.
So I always encourage people totry to see it as okay.
This is potentially threatening.
It doesn't mean in actualityit's threatening.
But I have to trust that myinstinct.
There's some reason for thisinstinct I have, and that reason
(42:53):
is I want to protect myrelationship.
This is a precious relationship.
This person is a beloved andthe relationship is important to
me.
It's valuable to me.
I want to protect therelationship.
That's why I'm feeling jealous.
(43:15):
So I need to look at why am Ifeeling jealous?
What's going on?
How can I make sure that myrelationship is okay and is safe
and is secure?
Relationship is okay and issafe and is secure and then I'll
(43:35):
be able to turn down the volumeon that jealousy and feel a
little safer and morecomfortable with this situation.
Ellecia (43:41):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that that's so, so, soimportant, because we have kind
of really villainized jealousyas like you're doing something
wrong or someone's harming youOtherwise.
You absolutely shouldn't feelit when it's such a normal human
emotion.
It's just, you know, yournervous system going hey, here's
(44:03):
the thing to watch out forright.
Kathy (44:14):
I sometimes describe it as like uh, you know, some, some
people have cars with caralarms that are a little bit
overactive.
Yeah, you know, and the caralarm will go off if you're just
walking 10 feet from it, youknow.
Yes, well, you know, it doesn'tmean you want to disconnect
that car alarm because someonewill steal your car.
So don't disconnect yourjealousy alarm, but just like
turn it down, make it, you know,a little more realistic.
(44:35):
So you know, like the car alarm, you don't want it to go off
until someone is actuallybreaking into your car.
Ellecia (44:42):
Yeah, you know, that's funny.
As you say that, I think of myGerman shepherd who the wind
blows wrong and he just startsbarking at all the windows.
There's an intruder.
I got to protect you and I'mlike dude, relax, it's fine.
Kathy (45:03):
Yeah, yes, that's a, that's a similar reaction, you
know, and and you don't want todisconnect the German Shepherd
alarm either, in case someone isbreaking into the house, uh-huh
, yeah.
Ellecia (45:15):
Yeah, he's still a part of the family, it's okay.
Kathy (45:18):
We just got to give him some comfort, yeah so I just, I
always tell people to expectjealousy and accept it.
Expect it and accept it if it,whether it's you or your partner
and even if your partner, forinstance, is having an extremely
irrational, over-the-topjealousy attack, don't tell them
(45:41):
.
They're wrong.
Don't tell them.
You know they're beingridiculous, you know that's not
helping.
You know you need to validatethat.
They have every right to have areaction.
They have every right to feelanxious and fearful and upset
about this, and let's talk aboutit and let's see what we can.
(46:01):
Is it something internal tothem, something from their past?
Is it something about thisother partner?
That there's something specificabout that person that they
don't like or that makes themfeel distrustful?
(46:21):
Or, you know, try to, insteadof focusing on oh, you shouldn't
be jealous, focus on, well,what's going on and how can we
make this situation moremanageable for everyone?
Yeah, I think we ofteninvalidate our partners.
Right, we're trying to makethem feel better by saying oh,
you have nothing to worry about,everything's fine.
but that just makes them feellike, well, you're lying to me
(46:44):
or you know, or it feels likeyou're just minimizing my fit,
you're trivializing orridiculing my feelings.
People have to have room tohave their feelings.
The feelings are not facts.
That's an important thing toremember.
The feelings are feelings.
They don't have to be relatedto the actual facts of the
situation and if you just keepthrowing facts at them, it's not
(47:09):
really addressing the fact thatthere's a feeling there that
needs to be accepted andunderstood and to help them feel
a little calmer, feel a littlebetter, before they can start
talking about really the factsof the situation.
Ellecia (47:20):
Yes, yes, yes, exactly that's that's really.
That's what it all comes downto is got to calm down first,
then we can talk about what'sreally going on yeah, I, I
haven't.
Kathy (47:35):
Uh, I recommend to people to really try to get into the
feeling state if your partner isjealous or upset about
something to do with a polyrelationship, because there's
often this disconnect whereyou're going facts, facts, facts
, logic, rationality and they'regoing feelings, feelings,
(47:57):
feelings.
You're not communicating.
You're just not communicatingthere.
So you really have to get thaton the feeling level and say
well, what are they feeling?
I don't, you know, having ayou're not a lawyer in court
arguing your case.
You know, and you're not goingto win over your partner with
that, with a persuasive,rational argument.
You're needing to get intotheir feeling state and
(48:19):
understand why they're feelingthe way they are yeah, and
address that.
Ellecia (48:23):
Yes, yes, yes, exactly exactly.
Kathy (48:27):
Are you just going to make it worse, not better that,
exactly, exactly.
Are you just going to make itworse, not better that?
I see that all the time,unfortunately.
I also recommend to people totry to differentiate whether
you're feeling jealousy orwhether it's something different
(48:48):
, whether it's envy or covetingthese three different you know
big, scary things can often bereally confused and I really try
to encourage people to try tofigure out which it is.
I try to explain it as jealousyis it's all mine and you can't
(49:11):
have any, whereas coveting isyou have something I want, I'm
going to steal it from you.
And the third thing, envy, iswow, you've got something going
that's really great.
I want some of what you have,or I want to go out and find
something like it, because I cansee you've got something really
(49:33):
great happening.
So, if you can figure out whichit is, usually jealousy happens
when you're in a relationshipand your partner has another
partner or new partner andyou're feeling like you're going
to lose something.
You feel like all of your loveand attention belongs to me, but
(49:56):
you're giving some of it tosomeone else.
So I'm afraid I feel like I'mlosing something here and I
don't want to share.
I don't feel like I want toshare.
I feel like there's a scarcityI don't want to share, whereas
coveting is usually.
If you're the person, there'ssome so-called outside
relationship.
You're coming into a situationwhere your partner has a spouse
(50:19):
or a primary relationship andyou're seeing well, I want that.
So the only way to get it youfeel like the only way to get it
is to get rid of the spouse andsteal this partner away from
their spouse.
That's sort of the oldfashioned monogamous view.
Ellecia (50:39):
Yeah.
Kathy (50:40):
And oftentimes, even though we're poly, we can be
victim to that view and feellike the only way I can get what
I want is to get my partner todump their spouse so I can have
them.
And we have to overcome thatthinking because you can get
what you want without themhaving to leave their spouse.
And then the third thing envy.
(51:00):
Envy is actually the easiestone, the least difficult one to
deal with, because envy is likewow, I see my partner has a
really great relationship withtheir partner or their spouse.
I want some of that.
I want them to give me some oftheir time and attention because
they're really great.
(51:21):
I really want some of that.
Or, if I can't get that, I needto just go out and find it with
someone else.
I can see they have a greatrelationship.
I can admire and respect that.
I could see it's possible tohave a great relationship.
I'm going to go out and findsomeone like that and have a
relationship.
Yeah, yeah, it is so importantto differentiate which one of
(51:44):
those you're experiencing,because then you can figure out
what to do If you don't havedifferent solutions they have
different solutions, so youcould be trying, you could be
trying to solve their ownproblem and you're not going to
be looking towards the rightsolution and you're going to be
miserable.
Ellecia (52:03):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
I love that.
That's, that's really, reallygreat, and I so appreciate you
sharing all of your wisdom andexperience with us.
The way that you do sogenerously, it's amazing.
Thank you.
Kathy (52:21):
Thank you.
It's really fun having a chanceto talk about all these things
that are so near and dear to myheart.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yes, some of myfavorite subjects.
Ellecia (52:33):
I agree, me too.
Oh, fantastic.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Nope, we're not monogamousagain, and I'm going to put your
information in the show notesin case anybody missed how to
reach you or the title of yourbook Love and Abundance A
(52:56):
Counselor's Advice on OpenRelationships.
And thank you, thank you.
Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non-monogamous relationship
coach, and today, on Nope, we'reNot Monogamous I'm joined by
the legendary Kathy Labriola, acounselor, a nurse and an author
who's been guiding polyamorousand non-monogamous people for
decades.
The updated second edition ofher book Love in Abundance A
(00:20):
Counselor's Advice on OpenRelationships, was just released
a couple of weeks ago, and it'spacked with decades of
polyamorous wisdom.
So today we're going to talkabout mastering jealousy.
You can learn why jealousyarises, how it differs from envy
or coveting and how to addressits root causes.
We're also talking about solopolyamory versus relationship
anarchy, so there's like a wholediverse relationship style that
(00:44):
can really impact emotionaldynamics.
So we're going to look at that,plus some strategies for
emotional growth, discover waysto build trust, embrace openness
and create, like more honestcommunication, more deep
communication in yourrelationships.
And we're also going to talkabout coming out as polyamorous
or non-monogamous.
Kathy shares a really uniqueplatform release strategy for
(01:07):
navigating this process.
You'll want to check it out.
So, whether you are dealingwith feelings of insecurity,
navigating new relationships,curious about the distinctions
between jealousy and envy, allthe different things, this
episode has some game-changingperspectives for you.
And if you enjoy this episode orany of the episodes.
(01:27):
Do me a really huge favor andleave a review.
This is the number one way fora podcast to grow and get
noticed by more people.
You would be making a reallyhuge impact on the world with
this one little tiny thing and Iwould appreciate you thing and
(01:57):
I would appreciate you enjoy.
Bye, yay, awesome, uh, I'm.
I'm excited that you're hereagain.
Uh, get rid of me.
So that was probably like uh 11episodes ago or so, which is
great, cause I come out everytwo weeks, wow.
Kathy (02:16):
You are busy, a busy little bee, that's great.
Ellecia (02:19):
Well, I mean not as busy as you.
Kathy (02:21):
you're writing books as busy as you.
You're writing books.
That's true.
I keep, for some reason.
I keep thinking I have more tosay and then I have to write
another book.
My only reason for writingbooks is I only write books when
I've waited for years forsomeone else to write that book
and no one does, and I'm annoyed.
So I think, well, why didn'tsomeone else write this, so I?
(02:43):
I don't have to.
Ellecia (02:44):
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Well, I'll just say the thingsthen, right.
Kathy (02:49):
Just wishing someone else would do it.
Luckily, there are lots morebooks coming out about various
types of consensuallynon-monogamous relationships, so
it's a very exciting time thelast few years there's been
actually in the last two orthree years there's been more
books coming out about polyamoryand non-monogamy than I've ever
(03:11):
seen, and all the time I'vebeen involved in this, yeah.
Ellecia (03:15):
It's a long time.
It's amazing we have so manyresources now and also still not
enough.
Kathy (03:24):
There's definitely room for more.
So I'm waiting for you to writeyour book.
So I'll buy that book as soonas it comes out.
Ellecia (03:31):
Maybe next year.
Okay, I want an autographedcopy.
All right, it's yours.
You're first on the list, sothis is.
Is this a second edition ofLove and Abundance?
Yes, it is Amazing, amazing.
So Love and Abundance ACounselor's Advice on Open
(03:52):
Relationships.
I read this book in probably2014, I think, so this was
really fun to see to a new, anew, updated um version.
I'm curious what?
What was your favorite, uh like, update or favorite thing to
(04:16):
add?
Kathy (04:18):
well, the, you know, I added a whole introductory
chapter because so much hashappened in the world of
polyamory and non-monogamy sinceI wrote the book initially in
2008.
So in just you know, 15 years,an awful lot has changed, and so
(04:41):
an update was.
That was the only reason anupdate was needed, that all this
positive change had happenedsince then.
So that part was my favorite towrite to say well, when I wrote
the first book, I wasinterviewed on a lot of radio
shows and by journalists forprint newspapers and magazines,
(05:05):
you know, and by journalists for, you know, print newspapers and
magazines, because that's allwe had at the time, you know,
podcasts and other things, andonline, you know, newspapers and
things hadn't really beeninvented yet.
So I was interviewed on a lot ofradio shows and by a lot of,
you know, newspapers andmagazines and the reporters.
I would have to spend the firsthalf of the interview
explaining what consensualnon-monogamy and polyamory were,
(05:30):
because they had not really hada clue about it and they almost
always confused it withnon-consensual polygamy, where
women are forced into marriage,whether they like it or not,
with men who have multiple wives.
So there was a total lack ofunderstanding of the big
(05:51):
difference between those twothings by these reporters, for
you know, they always said I wasencouraging adultery and, you
know, destroying the family andall these other things which I'm
(06:13):
afraid I don't have the powerto do, even if I wanted to.
They were giving me credit orblame for a lot of things that
are kind of out of my control.
Ellecia (06:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I found that really fascinating.
Actually reading in yourintroduction about how much um
and negativity you faced in inreleasing that book and
interviewing and and talking topeople about it.
And I'll tell you that was oneof my biggest fears in starting
(06:44):
this podcast was like, man, I'mlike, can I handle that kind of
that kind of backlash or outcome?
And that actually hasn'thappened.
So I just want to thank you forseriously paving a path here.
Kathy (07:01):
Well, there's certainly still plenty of haters out there
on the Internet that want toyou know, email you or call you
or threaten you and everythingelse, but it's not remotely like
it was back then.
Yeah, yeah, I think a lot lessscary for people now to try to
(07:25):
navigate this type ofnon-traditional relationship and
they're not nearly in as muchdanger, both physically and
psychologically, of facingrejection by their families and
fears of losing their jobs ifthey come out at work.
And that is all still out there, but not nearly as pronounced
(07:48):
as before.
Ellecia (07:49):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I mean it's definitely still afear that a lot of people have.
I'm curious when you're talkingto people about that, what,
like, what kind of advice do yougive people when they're
worried about being rejected bytheir families or losing their
jobs because of beingpolyamorous or non-monogamous?
Kathy (08:15):
well, I usually encourage them to keep their
non-monogamous relationshipsprivate at first, until they
learned how to really engage inthis type of relationship
successfully and in a healthyway, and until they're more sure
(08:38):
that this is the path theyreally want in their lives,
before they decide to come outat work or come out to their
families or even, you know, tojust be a little more public
about it, because many people dotry this type of relationship
(09:00):
and decide eventually it's notreally for them or that it's
something they want to do now,but it's not like a long-term,
lifelong relational orientationfor them, and so I usually
encourage people to really seehow it works for them, first to
work out their own problemsaround it, and then, if they
(09:23):
decide this is really what theywant long term and that they
really are up for it, then isthe time to start coming out to
the people around them.
I especially think this isimportant if you're considering,
for instance, including morethan one partner in your life
(09:45):
publicly, like if you're goingto be bringing that partner to
work-related functions andevents, or if you're going to be
bringing that partner orpartners home to meet family.
I've seen too many people gothrough thinking they're madly
in love with a new person andbringing everybody home to meet
mom, and then, like a monthlater, the whole thing blows up
(10:06):
and breaks.
They break up and then it'sthey're left trying to explain
that to their family.
So I I usually say any newrelationship wait at least a
year before, like introducingthem to family or work or your
or your coworkers, or reallybeing more public so that you
don't have to deal with it.
(10:27):
You have to feel pretty certainthat person is going to be in
your life longer term beforewanting to present the
relationships uh to family andco-workers and friends yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes alot of sense.
Ellecia (10:43):
you really got to kind of pick your battles Like is
this, is this something you wantto really go to war over?
And like like managing, likeone thing, um, especially if
you've been monogamous andyou're new to non-monogamy,
you're navigating all of theemotions that come and and like
the logical parts, likenavigating calendars and
(11:06):
schedules and stuff.
That takes a lot of bandwidth,and then also trying to educate
people and explain to them aboutyour choices and defend
yourself takes another whole lotof bandwidth.
And so then you're starting topile those things on top of each
other.
Kathy (11:23):
Well, yeah, and to make sure everyone's on board.
I mean, I've said I've seen somany people who are in a
marriage or, you know,cohabiting relationship with
someone.
They're bringing anotherpartner into the situation and
the partner at home may not be ahundred percent okay with
things yet, and yet then you'reintroducing this other person to
(11:48):
your friends and family andeverybody and your own partner
is maybe extremely uncomfortablewith that level of like, having
to deal with that level ofpublic relations, you know.
Then they're having to defendyour choice of doing this when
they may not really be okay withit.
So that's really puttingsomeone in a very difficult
(12:10):
position that they are havingtheir own issues of jealousy and
feeling displaced and feelinghurt by this, and yet then
they're having to put up apublic front of like oh yeah,
everything's great.
You know, we're perfectly happywith this.
So don't put a pre-existingpartner in that position unless
(12:32):
they're really ready for thislevel of disclosure.
Ellecia (12:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really great advice
actually, because you know weoften say like go as slow as the
slowest partner.
You know we often say like goas slow as the slowest partner,
but that, yeah, is kind of kindof throwing throwing your person
under the bus when they want tobe supportive of you and yet
they're having to I don't knowBe more supportive than they
(12:58):
naturally would be.
Kathy (13:00):
Right and they just sort of fake it when they're not
really quite there yet.
So yeah, well, and I also thinkit's very important to think
through the potentialconsequences, because there's a
lot of pressure on us within thepoly community to be like
totally out there and public,but some people face way more
(13:23):
consequences than others.
You know there's a there can bea very high price to pay for
being out of the closet.
I mean this is especially truefor people who are either
working class or poor, or peoplewho are people of color, who
really may face way moreconsequences because they have
less privileges and lessresources.
If they lose their jobs becauseof it, or if someone threatens
(13:51):
to take away custody of theirchildren, if they have to go to
court to fight that, they don'tmaybe have the money or
resources for attorneys andthey're going to be at much more
risk in a court situation thansomeone else.
So it's important to thinkthrough what are the potential
costs and consequences.
Are you ready and able tomanage that, or is that going to
(14:14):
destroy your relationship andpossibly, you know, create
severe financial hardship foryou?
Ellecia (14:21):
And.
Kathy (14:21):
I think a lot of times people aren't really thinking
those things through for you,and I think a lot of times
people aren't really thinkingthose things through.
You know there's I sometimes saythere's a price to pay for
coming out of the closet.
There's a price for staying inthe closet, too, in that you
have to then be possibly lyingto other people, like your
family or your co-workers, oryou have to be sneaking around,
(14:42):
or you know you're having to bedoing some of the things that
we're trying to avoid by beingopenly polyamorous.
So you know there's an internaland emotional price to pay, and
you may be harming the peoplethat you're in relationship with
by feeling like you have tohide them and then they start to
feel like they're a secret orthat you're ashamed, or you know
(15:04):
that could create a lot ofissues too.
So both figuring out whatyou're, what you're facing if
you do come out further, comeout more out of the closet and
figuring out what you areactually going to lose by
staying in the closet is alsoall that is very important yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's.
Ellecia (15:23):
that's extremely.
It's like balancing, finding,balancing the, or weighing the
pros and cons, the costs and theconsequences of whatever
decisions you make Is there.
I'm curious if you have a waythat you recommend that people
(15:43):
do that equation, Like how dothey figure out, like, what
could happen on either side?
Kathy (15:52):
Well, you're always making guesses to some extent,
because you can't 100% predicthow your family members are
going to respond or how yourcoworkers are going to respond
or how your co-workers are goingto respond.
I usually recommend the same,what I call the platform release
strategy, which is somethingthat, as queer people, we used
(16:19):
to use back in the day, say backin the 1960s and 70s and I'm
old enough to remember thosedays we used to use what we
called the platform releasestrategy, which is you release
that information on a very smallplatform in order to gauge the
safety of coming out, and inthose days it was really
literally a matter of life anddeath.
(16:40):
You could be beaten and killedfor being gay and that still
could happen, but it's a lotless likely now than it was then
.
So are we going to release thatinformation the information
that you're queer or, in thiscase, that you're poly to a very
small platform, and usuallythat if it's your family, I
always recommend trying to pickthe family member that you
(17:01):
believe is the most likely to beaccepting and tell them first
and you can swear them tosecrecy and to get their advice
on whether they think the restof the family is going to disown
you or not, because theyprobably know better than you do
(17:22):
.
They probably are going to beable to be a little more
objective about it.
So come out only to the personthat you think is most likely to
be supportive.
Same thing with, say, friends.
Come out to a friend that youfeel is the most likely to be
unjudgmental and accepting andthen get their opinion on
(17:43):
whether there are other friendsyou could tell.
Similarly, at work, who's theco-worker that you think is most
likely to be understanding andaccepting.
And so it's the platform releasestrategy, where you release it
on a very small platform.
If that goes well, then you canconsider releasing it on a
slightly larger platform.
(18:04):
You can consider releasing iton a slightly larger platform.
Yeah, that term is just basedon the way movie producers
decide how to release a film.
If they have a film that theydon't know if it's going to make
a lot of money or not, they'lljust release it in a few
theaters in New York, sanFrancisco, los Angeles and maybe
Chicago and see how it does.
(18:26):
And if it does makes money,they're going to release it to a
lot more theaters and then alot more theaters after that,
depending on how it does.
So it's it's kind of a strangeway of describing coming out as
probably, but it's, it's auseful metaphor.
Ellecia (18:39):
Yeah, yeah, I love that the platform release method.
That's fantastic, just kind ofgauging, gauging, gauging the
response, right, and if you comeout about being poly to the
(19:10):
person in your family that youthink is the most liberal or
progressive or accepting, andthey're like what?
You're out of your freakingmind, you're crazy, you're going
to hell or whatever.
Kathy (19:15):
Then you go, okay.
Well then there's nobody elsein my family.
I'm going to tell about thisanytime soon.
Right right, there we go.
Now I have an idea.
But if they're like totallyaccepting and they say, oh yeah,
I think the family can handleit, they'll freak out at first.
Ellecia (19:24):
But they'll be, you know, they'll calm down and be
fine.
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
That's, that's great, amazing,amazing, um I I'm curious.
You had, um, you and your inyour book.
You described like thedifferent um relationship
(19:48):
structures, different, different, uh, ways of doing polyamory.
And there's a question I get alot, which is, um, the
difference between solopolyamory and relationship
anarchy.
And you had one in there also amultiple non-primary
(20:08):
relationships, and so thosethree I think a lot of people
mix up with each other or kindof confuse, and so I'm curious
for you, how would you, howwould you just like, what's the
difference between them?
Kathy (20:25):
well, I invented the term , uh, multiple non-primary
relationships, uh, I don't know,45 years ago or something so,
and I only invented the thatterm along with some other terms
, because no terms seemed to bein existence, or I couldn't find
any anyway.
(20:46):
So I just made up thingsbecause it seemed like it
described a particular style ofrelationship.
In about 10 years ago, someoneelse, I don't know who, invented
this term solo poly, and thosetwo things are very similar.
Solo poly is, I think, a betterterm, and I wish I had thought
(21:07):
of it 45 years ago, but I didn't, so someone else did, thank
goodness.
And I think those things arevery similar.
What they involve is someone whois not seeking a primary
relationship.
They're not seeking.
They don't want to livetogether, get married and be in.
(21:29):
They don't want to be part of acouple.
They want to be single but havefabulous love affairs and have,
you know, love, affection,emotional intimacy, sex,
companionship.
You know they want all thethings that people naturally
(21:49):
want out of relationships, butthey're not looking to jump on
that relationship escalator andgo towards living together,
getting married and really beingpart of a couple that is making
decisions together as a couple.
They want to be independent.
They want to be single andluckily now we have that option.
(22:11):
You know, in the past it wasjust always assumed if you were
even dating someone, you were onthe way to like this whole, you
know whole trajectory whichwould ultimately end in getting
married.
So that's not really whatsomeone who's either solo, poly
or seeking multiple non-primaryrelationships is looking for,
(22:32):
and the good news is that that'ssomething that people can ask
for but need to be very explicitabout.
Can ask for, but need to be veryexplicit about and be very
careful that they're fishing inthe right pond, that they're
getting together with otherpeople in relationship that want
the same thing, and oftentimessomeone who's solo, poly or in
(22:58):
this multiple non-primaryrelationship model of polyamory,
they often will get involvedwith someone who's already
married, so they're not lookingfor that, they've already got
that at home.
Or they'll get together withother people who are also very
(23:19):
much engaged in other things inlife which preclude them from
really seeking a primaryrelationship.
Usually these are folks who areessentially married to
something else.
They are either married totheir work, they're very, very
invested in their careers, orthey're very passionate about
(23:42):
being artists or musicians, orthey're a single parent raising
children and they're just veryfocused on that, not really
wanting to have a primaryrelationship, or they're very
devoted to political activism orsome kind of social change work
, so they're really just notoriented towards a primary
(24:04):
relationship.
Ellecia (24:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense.
And then what, excuse me, what,what?
What about relationship anarchy?
Like it feels similar, butmaybe not.
Kathy (24:25):
Well, I think it may look similar from the outside, but
just to the casual observer itmay look similar, but with
relationship anarchy, eachrelationship is allowed to rise
(24:46):
to its own natural level.
Each relationship is allowed toevolve organically to whatever
seems right for thatrelationship.
And that often is not the sameas solo poly.
It often involves someonedeveloping some very long-term
(25:08):
and committed relationships.
They're just not reallypromising anyone that it will
and that's not what they'reseeking as like the one true
path of relationship.
They're not entering anyrelationship thinking this is
going to lead to living togetheror marriage or a committed
(25:32):
relationship.
They're entering a relationship, have a very open mind about
how this relationship may evolveand they don't want to try to
force it into any particularform.
More of a shorter-termexperience, like where they may
(26:09):
be engaged in that model for afew years but then eventually
decide they really want a morehierarchical relationship, in
that they want one person tobecome more of a primary
relationship.
Again, for some people itreally is a long-term
relationship.
Energy can be a very long-termrelational orientation and it
can be a long-term lifestyle.
(26:29):
My experience is that for a lotmore people it is a
shorter-term thing.
That is really a very rewardingand fulfilling relational model
for them for some period oftime, but not forever.
Ellecia (26:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense to me.
A lot of people ask me aboutthose things like solo, poly,
relationship, anarchy, and thenlike, but isn't that just dating
, right?
Like what's the differencebetween that and dating?
And I'm usually like well,dating to look for a monogamous
(27:08):
partner, or versus dating to tomeet people and continue to be
polyamorous are definitely twodifferent things.
And um, and it seems like a lotof people use those terms when
that's not actually what theymean- Use the terms like
relationship, anarchy.
Uh-huh.
Kathy (27:27):
Yeah, yes, there's kind of an ugly underbelly to a
certain segment of the polycommunity that ascribes to
relationship anarchy, and what Imean by that is that it tends
(27:49):
to be much more heterosexual menwho want relationship anarchy
as a way of evading orcommitment to any female partner
, and it often takes the form ofthem getting involved with any
(28:10):
number of women but notpromising them anything and not
being committed to anything andjust keeping them guessing and
keeping them in an experience ofextreme insecurity, of never
knowing what they can count on.
You know, can I even count on adate on Saturday night, much
(28:31):
less any kind of ongoingrelationship?
Don't you feel like every weekyou're on a like weekly lease
with this relationship?
Is it going to be over nextweek, or is someone else going
to be more important to you nextweek and I'm going to be less
important, you know, or nextmonth or whatever?
So again, I don't mean in anyway to demonize the men.
(28:53):
I've seen a few women do thesame thing.
Anyone of any gender could dothis but it does seem to be
sometimes an excuse forheterosexual men to just be
players in the old-fashionedsense, you know, of just wanting
(29:15):
to have a lot of women at theirbeck and call and not really
promising them anything or notreally being willing to make any
kind of commitment to them,which is not at all the goal of
relationship anarchy.
It's not that people inrelationship anarchy don't make
commitments to anyone, it's thatthey decide on a case-by-case
(29:36):
basis and negotiate with eachperson what level of commitment
they're going to have.
And for some men, unfortunately, and a few women, it is a way
of evading any kind ofresponsibility in relationships.
And similarly to the way somepeople who have what used to be
(29:57):
called sex addiction but is nowmore often called, you know,
compulsive sexual behavior, somepeople that have compulsive
sexual behaviors and anunhealthy and compulsive
relationship with sex will usethe cover of polyamory to act
out their addictive behaviorsand they're not really good
(30:20):
relationship partners and arelikely to harm any partner that
they get involved in.
But they'll claim I'm justbeing polyamorous.
But it leads to a lot of painand suffering.
Ellecia (30:32):
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's really importantto talk about those things,
because entirely too many peoplekind of wind up gaslighting
themselves into accepting badbehavior or behavior that isn't
at the level that they wouldlike from their relationships,
(30:54):
because, oh well, this partner,you know, they say they're a
relationship anarchist, or theysay they're polyamorous, they're
not behaving the way I thinkthat should be, but well, that's
, that's what they are.
So I guess this is what I haveto accept, and so I think it's
important to like point out that, like you know, not everybody
is behaving as lovely andethically as we would all like
(31:17):
like them to be.
Kathy (31:20):
That's very true.
I mean, I think it's importantto recognize that people who
engage in monogamousrelationships generally do so
for a mixture of healthy andunhealthy reasons, and people
who engage in polyamorousrelationships do so for a
mixture of healthy and unhealthyreasons.
We all have motivations thatare very mixed.
(31:44):
I think all of us, you know,have some woundings from our
past and from our childhood andall of these other things.
So, you know, we come torelations and we have
indoctrination from, you know,our culture and from society and
from our, uh, training andgender socialization.
So none of us, I don't think,can claim that our we're so
(32:08):
enlightened, uh, that ourmotivations for relationships
are totally clean.
You know they're mixed.
So the best we can do is reallyexamine our motives, examine
why are we feeling compelledtowards a particular relational
(32:30):
model, whether that's monogamyor whether it's polyamory, and
if it is a consensualnon-monogamy, what model of it
is most attractive to us and why?
And as long as we can be honestwith ourselves and hopefully
with our partners, about bothour healthy and unhealthy
motivations, I think we can havevery healthy relationships.
(32:53):
I just think to try to hidethat shadow side and make
believe that, oh, we're onlymotivated toward non-monogamy
because that's the mostenlightened relationship style,
or that that means we've done somuch personal growth, etc.
(33:13):
There are a lot of reasons forit and there are certainly some
people in the poly community whoare motivated by very unhealthy
needs that they probably needtherapy for rather than to mess
up other people's lives bydragging them into their
dysfunction.
Yeah, yeah yeah, absolutely uh,I mean monogamous people should
(33:37):
look at their motivations too.
You know what's driving them toreally need monogamy or want
monogamy.
It could be very, very healthy,or it could be for some, you
know, very unhealthy reasons.
Ellecia (33:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
That, like self-awareness andself-exploration.
We should all be doing it.
Kathy (34:07):
Right, I'm not judging them for being monogamous.
I just think we should belooking at our own motives and
social day as to what's actuallydriving them.
Ellecia (34:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And there was oh communication.
That was the other thing I wantto talk to you about, because
you said something in your book.
You said the two keys tosuccessfully communicating your
needs to your partners are beingwilling to admit that you've
(34:40):
guessed wrong about what youcould handle, and telling the
truth about your needs eventhough you know your partner
will not, will not or may not behappy with what you're asking
for.
And I love that quote so muchbecause it's, I think, probably
one of the biggest things that Isee in challenges for people in
(35:04):
relationships andnon-monogamous relationships and
monogamous but just is like canwe talk about the things?
Can I talk about what I want?
And then I'm always telling myclients you get to change your
mind, because when you startedthis, you said that you wanted
hierarchical polyamory uh,kitchen table.
(35:24):
You know, like you said, youlisted off the things you wanted
and then you went and hadexperiences and went oh,
actually, maybe some of thosethings aren't what I want.
You get to change your mind,you just have to talk about it.
Kathy (35:39):
That's true, very true.
I mean, I think we just have tobe humble about acknowledging
that well, this sounded great,but you know it's not really
working for me.
That well, this sounded great,but you know it's not really
working for me.
Or, especially, if you have eggon your face and you demanded
something of your partner thatyou can't deliver yourself and,
(36:00):
believe me, I've done that.
Been there, I'm sure we allhave, you know, said well, you
know, you have had unfairexpectations of your partner and
you actually can't do whatyou've asked them to do.
So all we can do is just humblyadmit that.
You know, sorry, I made amistake.
I thought this would work forme, and often that's the only
(36:23):
way you can find out if someonehas crossed your boundaries is
by having them step on your toesand go out.
That hurts.
I mean, how would we know,especially for people who are
new to non-monogamy, how couldwe possibly know how we're going
to feel about something thatwe've never experienced before?
Ellecia (36:47):
Yeah, we're.
We're really bad at guessinghow we're going to feel about
things that we haven'texperienced.
Right, and how would we?
Yes, how would we're?
We're really bad at guessinghow we're going to feel about
things that we haven'texperienced.
Kathy (36:52):
Right, and how would we?
Yes, how would we you know?
So yeah, yeah.
So, I mean, I think it's evenmore ideal if, before you
venture into polyamory for thefirst time, if you're able to be
honest about the fact that,well, this is all new territory,
this is scary.
(37:13):
I don't know what the fuck I'mdoing, and neither do my
partners probably have any ideawhat they're doing.
It helps if you have a partneror partners that have done this
for a long time, but then it'soften you're just all stumbling
around in the dark becauseyou've never done it before.
So all the more reason.
(37:33):
We need your podcast and weneed books and we need all these
great online resources that wenow have and why we need
polyamory support and discussiongroups, many of which exist all
around.
So you know, avail yourselvesof those resources.
I really encourage people to dothe homework, do the reading,
(37:55):
listen to podcasts, find out asmuch information as you can.
I mean, you wouldn't try toclimb Mount Everest without you
know.
Training for a year, you knowwith experts and really
practicing and falling down alot in a place where you're not
going to get killed, as opposedto trying to climb Mount Everest
(38:17):
and falling in the first ravineand getting killed, uh-huh,
uh-huh, and hiring a Sherpa.
There you go Lots of them.
Yeah, to help to do the heavylifting.
Yeah, because they're way moreskilled at mountain climbing
than we are.
So yes and so going to a coachlike you or going to a counselor
like me, or finding people thatyou can get help from, is
(38:40):
really very important, and ifyou're, if you're wise, you'll
do some of that before you getstarted with any kind of
polyamorous relationship.
Unfortunately, it doesn'tusually work that way.
People often stumble into itaccidentally and then go oh no,
we are lost.
What do we do?
We're lost and there are noSherpas inside.
Ellecia (39:04):
Yep, yep, yep, amazing, amazing.
I'm curious, is there?
Well, first of all, when, whendoes this edition of the book
come out?
I just came out a couple ofweeks ago.
Yes, wonderful, wonderful.
So people can just find it inall the places that you buy
books.
Kathy (39:26):
I really encourage people to either buy the book directly
from me on my website or buy itfrom bookshoporg or
indiebandorg, because those areindependent booksellers and that
small profit that exists inbookselling will go to
independent booksellers ratherthan Amazon or people we won't
(39:50):
name.
Ellecia (39:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and that, uh, you don't need
your money, right.
Kathy (39:55):
Exactly.
They don't really need thatmoney of yours, those precious
dollars that you have.
Ellecia (40:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, really, really important.
Uh, is it?
It's Kathy labriolacom, right,that's it Amazing.
Is there anything else that youwant to share that I haven't
asked you.
Kathy (40:16):
Well, one thing that I would like to share is that
people often are surprised whenthey experience jealousy.
When they experience jealousyand they often judge themselves
or their partners forexperiencing jealousy.
And I always want to encouragepeople to be gentle with
(40:43):
yourself and with your partnersbecause it's a normal, natural
response.
And people call me and say wellgosh, I was, I didn't think I
would be jealous, I thought Iwas.
So, you know, had done thepersonal growth work and I never
thought I'd be jealous.
I'm so shocked that I'm jealousand I usually respond by saying
(41:07):
well, I'm shocked that you'reshocked.
You know why wouldn't you bejealous?
(41:35):
It's a primal emotional responsethat comes from, really, that
reptilian, that ancientreptilian part of our brain that
is that fight or flight kind ofsurvival reflex.
It's a kind of primal responseto a perceived threat to our
survival.
And in relationships we do havethis feeling that our very
survival is threatened if wethink the relationship is
threatened and often therelationship is not even
threatened, but we have a verystrong belief that it is that
any other person coming into ourrelationship or being involved
(42:00):
with our partner feels like avery primal threat to us.
And the fact is that anyoutside relationship is a
potential threat.
Emphasis on the word potential,potential threat because we
this is an unknown kind ofsituation and it's a it can be
(42:28):
disruptive and destabilizing toa relationship for any number of
reasons.
So I always encourage people totry to see it as okay.
This is potentially threatening.
It doesn't mean in actualityit's threatening.
But I have to trust that myinstinct.
There's some reason for thisinstinct I have, and that reason
(42:53):
is I want to protect myrelationship.
This is a precious relationship.
This person is a beloved andthe relationship is important to
me.
It's valuable to me.
I want to protect therelationship.
That's why I'm feeling jealous.
(43:15):
So I need to look at why am Ifeeling jealous?
What's going on?
How can I make sure that myrelationship is okay and is safe
and is secure?
Relationship is okay and issafe and is secure and then I'll
(43:35):
be able to turn down the volumeon that jealousy and feel a
little safer and morecomfortable with this situation.
Ellecia (43:41):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that that's so, so, soimportant, because we have kind
of really villainized jealousyas like you're doing something
wrong or someone's harming youOtherwise.
You absolutely shouldn't feelit when it's such a normal human
emotion.
It's just, you know, yournervous system going hey, here's
(44:03):
the thing to watch out forright.
Kathy (44:14):
I sometimes describe it as like uh, you know, some, some
people have cars with caralarms that are a little bit
overactive.
Yeah, you know, and the caralarm will go off if you're just
walking 10 feet from it, youknow.
Yes, well, you know, it doesn'tmean you want to disconnect
that car alarm because someonewill steal your car.
So don't disconnect yourjealousy alarm, but just like
turn it down, make it, you know,a little more realistic.
(44:35):
So you know, like the car alarm, you don't want it to go off
until someone is actuallybreaking into your car.
Ellecia (44:42):
Yeah, you know, that's funny.
As you say that, I think of myGerman shepherd who the wind
blows wrong and he just startsbarking at all the windows.
There's an intruder.
I got to protect you and I'mlike dude, relax, it's fine.
Kathy (45:03):
Yeah, yes, that's a, that's a similar reaction, you
know, and and you don't want todisconnect the German Shepherd
alarm either, in case someone isbreaking into the house, uh-huh
, yeah.
Ellecia (45:15):
Yeah, he's still a part of the family, it's okay.
Kathy (45:18):
We just got to give him some comfort, yeah so I just, I
always tell people to expectjealousy and accept it.
Expect it and accept it if it,whether it's you or your partner
and even if your partner, forinstance, is having an extremely
irrational, over-the-topjealousy attack, don't tell them
(45:41):
.
They're wrong.
Don't tell them.
You know they're beingridiculous, you know that's not
helping.
You know you need to validatethat.
They have every right to have areaction.
They have every right to feelanxious and fearful and upset
about this, and let's talk aboutit and let's see what we can.
(46:01):
Is it something internal tothem, something from their past?
Is it something about thisother partner?
That there's something specificabout that person that they
don't like or that makes themfeel distrustful?
(46:21):
Or, you know, try to, insteadof focusing on oh, you shouldn't
be jealous, focus on, well,what's going on and how can we
make this situation moremanageable for everyone?
Yeah, I think we ofteninvalidate our partners.
Right, we're trying to makethem feel better by saying oh,
you have nothing to worry about,everything's fine.
but that just makes them feellike, well, you're lying to me
(46:44):
or you know, or it feels likeyou're just minimizing my fit,
you're trivializing orridiculing my feelings.
People have to have room tohave their feelings.
The feelings are not facts.
That's an important thing toremember.
The feelings are feelings.
They don't have to be relatedto the actual facts of the
situation and if you just keepthrowing facts at them, it's not
(47:09):
really addressing the fact thatthere's a feeling there that
needs to be accepted andunderstood and to help them feel
a little calmer, feel a littlebetter, before they can start
talking about really the factsof the situation.
Ellecia (47:20):
Yes, yes, yes, exactly that's that's really.
That's what it all comes downto is got to calm down first,
then we can talk about what'sreally going on yeah, I, I
haven't.
Kathy (47:35):
Uh, I recommend to people to really try to get into the
feeling state if your partner isjealous or upset about
something to do with a polyrelationship, because there's
often this disconnect whereyou're going facts, facts, facts
, logic, rationality and they'regoing feelings, feelings,
(47:57):
feelings.
You're not communicating.
You're just not communicatingthere.
So you really have to get thaton the feeling level and say
well, what are they feeling?
I don't, you know, having ayou're not a lawyer in court
arguing your case.
You know, and you're not goingto win over your partner with
that, with a persuasive,rational argument.
You're needing to get intotheir feeling state and
(48:19):
understand why they're feelingthe way they are yeah, and
address that.
Ellecia (48:23):
Yes, yes, yes, exactly exactly.
Kathy (48:27):
Are you just going to make it worse, not better that,
exactly, exactly.
Are you just going to make itworse, not better that?
I see that all the time,unfortunately.
I also recommend to people totry to differentiate whether
you're feeling jealousy orwhether it's something different
(48:48):
, whether it's envy or covetingthese three different you know
big, scary things can often bereally confused and I really try
to encourage people to try tofigure out which it is.
I try to explain it as jealousyis it's all mine and you can't
(49:11):
have any, whereas coveting isyou have something I want, I'm
going to steal it from you.
And the third thing, envy, iswow, you've got something going
that's really great.
I want some of what you have,or I want to go out and find
something like it, because I cansee you've got something really
(49:33):
great happening.
So, if you can figure out whichit is, usually jealousy happens
when you're in a relationshipand your partner has another
partner or new partner andyou're feeling like you're going
to lose something.
You feel like all of your loveand attention belongs to me, but
(49:56):
you're giving some of it tosomeone else.
So I'm afraid I feel like I'mlosing something here and I
don't want to share.
I don't feel like I want toshare.
I feel like there's a scarcityI don't want to share, whereas
coveting is usually.
If you're the person, there'ssome so-called outside
relationship.
You're coming into a situationwhere your partner has a spouse
(50:19):
or a primary relationship andyou're seeing well, I want that.
So the only way to get it youfeel like the only way to get it
is to get rid of the spouse andsteal this partner away from
their spouse.
That's sort of the oldfashioned monogamous view.
Ellecia (50:39):
Yeah.
Kathy (50:40):
And oftentimes, even though we're poly, we can be
victim to that view and feellike the only way I can get what
I want is to get my partner todump their spouse so I can have
them.
And we have to overcome thatthinking because you can get
what you want without themhaving to leave their spouse.
And then the third thing envy.
(51:00):
Envy is actually the easiestone, the least difficult one to
deal with, because envy is likewow, I see my partner has a
really great relationship withtheir partner or their spouse.
I want some of that.
I want them to give me some oftheir time and attention because
they're really great.
(51:21):
I really want some of that.
Or, if I can't get that, I needto just go out and find it with
someone else.
I can see they have a greatrelationship.
I can admire and respect that.
I could see it's possible tohave a great relationship.
I'm going to go out and findsomeone like that and have a
relationship.
Yeah, yeah, it is so importantto differentiate which one of
(51:44):
those you're experiencing,because then you can figure out
what to do If you don't havedifferent solutions they have
different solutions, so youcould be trying, you could be
trying to solve their ownproblem and you're not going to
be looking towards the rightsolution and you're going to be
miserable.
Ellecia (52:03):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
I love that.
That's, that's really, reallygreat, and I so appreciate you
sharing all of your wisdom andexperience with us.
The way that you do sogenerously, it's amazing.
Thank you.
Kathy (52:21):
Thank you.
It's really fun having a chanceto talk about all these things
that are so near and dear to myheart.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yes, some of myfavorite subjects.
Ellecia (52:33):
I agree, me too.
Oh, fantastic.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Nope, we're not monogamousagain, and I'm going to put your
information in the show notesin case anybody missed how to
reach you or the title of yourbook Love and Abundance A
(52:56):
Counselor's Advice on OpenRelationships.
And thank you, thank you.
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