January 16, 2025 • 47 mins
Are you ready to challenge everything you thought you knew about relationships? In this eye-opening episode, I sit down with Annie Undone, a writer, artist, and relationship anarchist who's been through it all - from monogamy to swinging, polyamory, and now relationship anarchy. Together, we unpack the raw truth about opening up relationships and why it might just lead to the end of your current partnership... but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
The Uncomfortable Truth About Opening Up
- Why most people are terrified of opening their relationships (and why they might be right)
- The challenges of taking it slow when you're excited about new possibilities
- How to embrace relationship transitions without letting fear hold you back
- Beyond the Binary: Redefining Love and Connection
- The beauty of tailoring relationships to fit the people in them, not societal expectations
- Why relationship anarchy isn't just for the polyamorous crowd
- How exploring different relationship styles can accelerate personal growth and self-discovery
A Peek into Annie's Upcoming Work
Annie teases her new ebook, "On Polyamory," coming out in February. It's a collection of 11 essays chronicling the emotional peaks and valleys of her journey through polyamory and the end of her marriage. Find her work on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/annie_undone
website - https://ko-fi.com/annieundone/shop
patreon - https://www.patreon.com/annieundone
📰 Subscribe to Not A Monogamous Newsletter to stay up to date with new episodes and offerings from Ellecia. https://elleciapaine.podia.com/newsletter
❤️ Enjoying the show? The best way to thank us is by following and leaving a review or a note. And if you want more, join our Patreon! http://www.patreon.com/notmonogamous
👀 Find Us Online
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Music: Composer/Author (CA): Oscar Lindstein
STIM IPI: 572 393 237
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ellecia (00:01):
Hey friends, welcome back to Nope we're Not
Monogamous, the podcast where welaugh, learn and explore the
wonderfully weird world ofnon-traditional relationships.
I'm your relationship ElleciaPaine, and today we're having
one of the most honest,eye-opening conversations yet.
So here's the deal.
Most people are terrified thatopening their relationship will
lead to the end of theirrelationship, and you know what
(00:21):
Annie andone says they'reprobably right, but the ending
doesn't have to be a bad thingand also isn't inevitable.
Annie's a writer, artist,relationship anarchist, with
sass and insight that only anon-binary babe can bring.
She's been through it allMonogamy, swinging polyamory and
now relationship anarchy.
And today we're going to unpackwhat it really means to open up
(00:43):
a relationship, the challengesof taking it slow and how to
embrace those transitionswithout too much fear.
Oh, and before we jump in,here's a quick shout out to you,
my listeners and viewers If youlove what you hear today, do me
a solid, follow the podcast,leave a review.
When you do that, I'll give youa personal shout out on one of
(01:04):
the upcoming episodes and it'smy way of saying thank you for
being a big part of this growingcommunity.
And if you aren't on my emaillist yet, go to aliciapaincom.
It's the best way to stay inthe loop for tips, events, new
episodes, other good stuff.
I'd love to see you there.
Okay, let's explore theterrifying, exciting and
transformational truth aboutopening relationships with the
(01:28):
incredible Annie Undone.
Let's go, okay.
Let's first of all welcomeWelcome to Nope.
We're Not Monogamous.
I'm really really happy thatyou're here.
I'm excited to have you.
Do you want to?
Do you want to tell thelisteners just a quick little
like who you are?
Annie (01:45):
Do you want to tell the listeners just?
Ellecia (01:46):
a quick little like who you are yeah.
Annie (01:49):
Okay, so I'm Anne Dunn.
I started like making contenton Instagram back in probably
like 2021, 2022 area, when Iopened up my marriage of 16
years and we were practicingpolyamory.
Kind of like.
My stump speech is that I'vepracticed every single
relationship style under the sun, from monogamy to non-monogamy
(02:12):
to swinging polyamory, and nowI'm a relationship anarchist and
I'm looking to kind ofnormalize, moving very fluidly
through relationship styleswithout stigmatizing any of them
, moving very fluidly throughrelationship styles without
stigmatizing any of them.
Ellecia (02:27):
Yeah, I love that and actually it's super relatable
because we've done I have gonethrough that that, that
iteration of all those thingsDid you?
Annie (02:39):
I feel like I've been following you for a long time on
Instagram Did you used to notshow your face?
Ellecia (02:44):
That's true, yeah.
So okay, I was like, like am Iputting the right memory
together here?
Annie (02:48):
yeah, my ex kind of didn't want me showing my face,
for you know some, somelegitimate reasons, um, but when
we got divorced, I was like,what am I doing this for?
Like there's nothing, there'snothing left to hide, and I
thought that it was going to belike this big fanfare of like.
Oh my god, I'm showing my faceand I thought, you know, this is
going to be like this bigfanfare of like.
Oh my God, I'm showing my faceand I thought, you know, this is
going to like maybe impact mylife in some way.
(03:08):
And that turned out to not betrue.
So I'm no longer anonymous, andI guess it's been that way for
about a year and a half, and itwas a great choice.
I'm very happy with it.
Ellecia (03:18):
Yeah, yeah, Amazing.
You know, I feel like that kindof is what happens every step
of the way, right, Like openinga relationship.
You're like, oh my God ifpeople find out.
And then like, okay, well, somepeople know now and I haven't
died.
And then you know, like thenext step, like oh my God, what
if people find out?
(03:38):
And then it's like, oh, okay,we did that.
Annie (03:40):
I'm still fine, absolutely.
I mean, I think I have suffereddifferent impacts than some, in
that I got a divorce and mypolyamory was weaponized against
me, not just in my friend group, not just in the family that I
was exiting, but also in thecourt system, and that was
(04:03):
really difficult for me, butalso in the court system, and
that was really difficult for me.
But I will say that even withall of that, the storm was
weatherable and I don't regretany of my decisions.
Ellecia (04:14):
Yeah, yeah, beautiful, good, good.
Similarly, we actually we wentthrough a custody case with
non-monogamy being the centralargument and at the end they
were like, well, don't do sexthings in front of your kids,
like you know, none of us do,and we're fine.
We were like cool, we neverhave and we won't.
Annie (04:36):
It was a very odd and surreal experience to watch my
page come up in court documents,to like see all of that
happening and thinking, wow,what am I putting on the line?
To like run this account and tosay what I need to say.
And I just decided not to waverfrom my sticking point that I
(04:59):
was like I know that I'm a goodparent, I know that I'm not
doing anything wrong, that mylife is consistent, steady and
stable and all those things.
I know that I'm a good parent,I know that I'm not doing
anything wrong, that my life isconsistent, steady and stable,
and all those things you knowwere fine.
In the end, you know, I think,if there's anyone going through
that, I think what most peopleare so afraid of is like what's
going to happen in court.
But you know, most court casesdo not make it in front of a
(05:21):
judge and I think that's reallyimportant to note for most
people who are being likelegally threatened by a bitter
ex.
Ellecia (05:30):
Yeah, yeah, truly truly .
It is the fear of it, notalways, but often the fear of it
is bigger than what actuallyhappens, and it's so fucking
(05:59):
stressful.
Annie (05:59):
It's so stressful.
Married couples right, and alot of us have these starry-eyed
notions of we can weatheranything.
The couple comes first and yada, yada, yada.
But the truth is, when you opena previously monogamous
relationship, whether you'remarried or not, the likelihood
that you're going to lose thatrelationship is pretty high.
(06:19):
So I think, people don't love tohear that and of course,
whenever I say it, there'simmediately the people who are
like yeah, but not me.
And I was firmly in the yeahbut not me camp until it was me
and I thought even in that thatI was being realistic, like
(06:41):
going in.
But I think that there's lotsof reasons why that happens to
couples.
Breaking codependency is reallyreally hard.
For those of us who have comeup in compulsory monogamous
culture which is basically allof us and redefining an entire
relationship, there is generallya more reluctant partner and
(07:06):
you know, for some of us, oncewe open into that right we can't
go back, and that's not alwaysa.
That doesn't always mean wecan't go back to monogamy in
general.
Sometimes it just means I can'tbe monogamous with you anymore
and people also don't like tohear that.
Ellecia (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's so true.
I mean you're just, anytimeyou're making changes, you've
made the change.
Like you have changed thingsand that might may not be the
final like iteration of it, butlike you have changed things,
it's like you know, uh, you knowit's.
I have people often that arelike in the like dating right,
they're like single and dating.
They're like.
I know I don't want to bemonogamous, but like, shouldn't
(07:50):
I meet someone like, like, builda solid foundation of monogamy?
And I'm always saying, like,actually begin as you intend to
go on.
Don't create a monogamousrelationship and then knock down
a few walls later on, thinkingit'll be fine, like you can do
that, but you're going to saveyourself some steps.
Annie (08:08):
Yeah, I think that I think that opening a
relationship once it's closed isis really difficult, um, and I
also think that you have tothink about what are your
ultimate goals, too, right, likewhat kind of relationship do
you want to have?
I think there's also thesticking point for a lot of
couples, right, like what kindof relationship do you wanna
have?
I think there's also thesticking point for a lot of
couples, right, is they're likebut in this other relationship
we don't talk to each other likethis.
(08:30):
In this other relationshipwe're able to have these
conversations or have thisvulnerability, right?
So I think we tend to getsometimes stuck in those
paradigms.
Like Jessica Fern talks a lotabout this in Pollywise, the
paradigm shift, right, and so alot of it is about, like,
(08:51):
mentality, right?
So if you think you're going togo into a relationship and form
a monogamous foundation, thenit's going to be built on a
monogamous foundation, right?
So I would more suggest, or orgently nudge people towards a
relationship anarchistfoundation.
Take the mononormativity andthe heteronormativity out of the
(09:16):
base of your practice, becauseif you do that, you will have
more options ultimately moreoptions ultimately, can you
explain?
Ellecia (09:26):
this is one that is often weird and hard to explain
for you.
Annie (09:34):
What does relationship anarchy mean?
Very, very simple, right?
People love to overcomplicatethis.
Right, Relationship anarchysimply means tailor-making
relationships for exactly thepeople in them.
There is no parameters.
This is not some big,mysterious thing, right?
If you look at the RelationshipAnarchy Manifesto, it is such a
simple document.
Right, it's so short.
It's like what?
(09:56):
Five, six paragraphs.
Right, it's really simple andthat can mean anything.
Right, you can be arelationship anarchist and be
monogamous.
You can be non-monogamous, youcan be polyamorous.
You can be some shade of grayof that.
Right, it's an inclusive term.
Ellecia (10:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it that.
That has been the most, I don'tknow.
The thing that I'm alwaystrying to tell people is you
want a relationship that worksfor the people in the
relationship and not for thepeople that are looking outward
in, and often that's what we'rebuilding is relationships that
work for the people lookingoutward in.
Annie (10:37):
I think too, sometimes we see relationship anarchy as
this weird Buddha Buddha levelenlightenment version of
polyamory.
Right, and I just rail sovehemently against this because
it's not like some destination.
I think that a lot ofpolyamorous people, as we go
(10:58):
through shifts in ourrelationship setups, sometimes
our priorities shift, and so myrelationship practice means
something very different for menow than it did five years ago.
Right, part of my practiceincludes the decentralization of
romance and the centering ofmyself.
It includes intergenerationalliving, which is something that
(11:21):
was very important to me, likemost of my adult life, but I
wasn't really sure how to getthere, and so the priority for
me isn't on multiple romanticrelationships, right, and you
know, look, some polyamorouspeople will fight to the death
(11:43):
on this right.
Polyamorous people will fight tothe death on this right that it
means multiple sexual andromantic relationships.
I will die on this hill becausethat is not inclusive, right,
this excludes asexual andaromantic people who do not
participate along binary lines,and so, really, when we begin to
(12:03):
blow out the definition to bemore inclusive, the titles don't
matter anymore.
It's really just about love,and that's why I am so crazy
about relationship anarchy,because it is the gray areas.
It's and and wonderful that youdon't have to be attached to
(12:27):
like one way of doing anything.
Ellecia (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love that.
I love that so much.
It's so good there's.
So I feel like when we, youknow, we, we kind of like we
grow up, we're, we're dating, westart dating, we start doing
those things and it's we're sofocused on finding a person and
(12:50):
that romance and sex all has tobe a part of it, and and then,
and then we kind of start movingout of that into you know, like
if you're going from monogamyto non-monogamy, there's still
like it's so the romance and thesex are such a central part,
and that is the part that oftenscrews us up, that often makes
us make decisions we didn't wantto make, do things we didn't
(13:12):
want to do, say yes to thingswe're really a no to, because
but the romance and the sex haveto like I don't know, they they
almost make us, we, we putthose almost on a pedestal,
above our own actual needs.
Annie (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I had some really interesting
experiences coming intopolyamory.
I came into polyamory by way ofkink, so I, um, my first
polyamorous partner was anasexual kink partner, um, but he
was not a romantic and he wasin fact very romantic and it
(13:47):
kind of immediately beganparsing out concepts for me in a
way that I didn't necessarilyknow was happening at first, but
it helped me.
It was the first time thatsomeone said to me I really
don't care what you look like.
You basically have no, nosexual value to me.
Like, who are you I'minterested in being romantic
(14:10):
with, with your personality,with your soul, right Like that
was like a very mind-blowingconcept to me.
And as a, a female person,assigned female at birth, I'm a
non-binary human.
I've learned, but at the time,as the world views me as female
(14:31):
and like over-sexualizes me in alot of ways, that was so
appealing to me.
And it still took me a lot ofiterations in polyamory to get
that out of my system.
Right Like I'm a very slutty,dirty person and that's a whole
facet of me.
But as I was able to explorethose concepts, I was like, oh
(14:54):
my God, I'm demisexual.
Like, if I sleep with someonetoo many times I don't even have
to like them, I think I'm inlove with them.
What in the heck, right Like Iwas like I hate this, so it it
got me to the place where now Ican ask myself what is emotional
safety for me and how?
(15:16):
How do I want the interplay ofemotional safety and sexuality
to happen for me, right, andwhat types of relationships do I
want to have and what othertypes of love do I want to
experience?
Because this is just one right.
Romantic love and sexualexpression, that's one thing,
right, but there's so many typesof love to experience, right
(15:41):
Like.
Imagine me on the precipice ofdivorce, being like moving back
in with my mom at 37 years old.
Right, and now, almost threeyears later, my mom and I doing
relationship anarchy style, workto deconstruct where's the line
(16:02):
between being a parent andbeing a roommate, from being a
grandparent to being a parent,how are we dealing with our
trauma and how is that affectingus?
Right Like.
I had a conversation with mymom and I was like I think that
some of your attachment issues,you think I'm like always
running out the door, I'mcommitted to this living
situation with you.
I need you to understand thatright.
(16:23):
That is a different type ofdeep, deep work.
It goes beyond the bonds offamily that we actually have
decided we like each other.
Yes, yes, oh, my God, I lovethat so much so I think and it's
been and actually it's beenreally, really interesting,
because my mom is a therapist,right, and so watching her
(16:48):
journey, as she's been like okay, let me see what you got going
on there, Watching her read thebooks and watching her be like I
think I want to have somepolyamorous experiences.
I think I want to have somepolyamorous clients.
I think I want to work withthis population.
Her and I did a workshoptogether this year, right.
Like our relationship has alsogotten more dimensional as we
(17:13):
have explored.
You know, what do these thingsmean to us as a family?
Ellecia (17:18):
Yeah, Gosh, I love that so much, like a lot, a lot.
Annie (17:23):
I mean, and I don't think that this is this isn lot, a
lot, yeah, yeah, I mean, and Idon't think that this is this
isn't the traditional way, right, when we think about where do
the roads to polyamory lead forpeople?
Right, and you know this ispart of my relationship anarchy,
because it's like you know, wegenerally think about
individualizing away from ourparents as having my own house
(17:45):
and having my own.
Well, for me, individualizingaway from my mom is saying no,
no, no.
I want to have thisconversation about like trans
advocacy with you and I want tolike, I want to have a really
clear and specific opinion onthis and I want to debate this
clinically with you and I wantto talk about how you support
people and how I support peopleand I want to dig into these
(18:08):
like other concepts about youknow, how am I parenting my
child and what is your role inthat as a grandparent who's
living in the house and where doI not want you to interfere?
Right, like I want to dig intothat.
Ellecia (18:20):
Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's funny because you say
this isn't the traditional way,but, like only for the last,
like hundred and fifty years.
Is that not the traditional way, right, right?
Actually, this is, this is whatwe've been doing for most of
humanity and we've gotten awayfrom it, and so it's really
beautiful to to, to find thetools to be able to come back
(18:41):
around to what actually is verylike nurturing and supportive
and like supports the wholefamily.
Annie (18:47):
And it's hard.
You know it's also difficult,right, like I was like oh, all
the work I'm doing in therapynow it's just like all like
centered around, like family andbreaking these cycles, and this
is really uncomfortable.
I I miss sometimes just doingthe like.
Can I just be jealous ofsomething?
Ellecia (19:08):
Can't we just talk about like easy boundaries yeah.
Annie (19:19):
It's hard.
It's hard work, but it's it'sworthy work, because we get the
types of intergenerationalexchanges that are often lost to
isolation.
Ellecia (19:24):
Frankly, Mm-hmm, mm-hmm , yeah, yeah, I love it.
Changes that are often lost toisolation.
Frankly, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah,yeah, I love it, it's so good,
it's so good.
What?
I'm curious, what do you think?
Hmm, I keep thinking about,like people that are opening up,
going, you know, kind of goingthrough the stages, like we want
(19:47):
to be sexually open, we want tobe polyamorous, we want kitchen
table Polly, we want and thenexpanding and learning more
about themselves.
And I'm curious, what if youcould give someone a way to like
skip some of the, some of thethings that could be skipped, or
(20:07):
like fast track some of thelessons?
What would you?
What would you tell people?
Like, how, how do they, how canthey keep moving faster, but
not too fast?
Annie (20:20):
I mean I would say slow down, I would say don't go fast,
right, I mean I think that Ithink that the fast track is the
disaster track and look, don'tget me wrong.
Right, like, I think, if youwant to go fast, if you'd rather
do your chaos on the front end,um, it's valuable but it can be
really destructive.
Ellecia (20:41):
Right.
Annie (20:42):
Um, and I think that, like, the excitement that comes
with opening changes the pace atwhich we open, and I think that
people are very eager in thosemoments.
There is such a frenzy thathappens around that.
And, like I remember my friendwho basically, like she
(21:02):
introduced me to likenon-monogamy.
She was like we're swingers andlike we're having the best time
of our lives Two years after wehad opened our marriages.
We were both like God, missFrenzy, don't you just miss that
?
Right.
And so I will give this kind oftwo sides of the coin advice,
right, like if you are sofreaking turned on that you
(21:25):
can't slow down, right, I'm notgoing to tell you don't do that,
I'm going to tell you, do whatyou got to do, right.
But I think that you know someof that joyful chaos that we
engage in in the beginning ofour polyamorous journeys, engage
(21:49):
in in the beginning of ourpolyamorous journeys, it's not
sustainable.
And now I'm very slow, verymetered, very intentional, but
that was forged in the fire ofchaos, right.
And so I think there's no magicbullet for couples opening up,
right, like you got to gothrough what you got to go
through and you have to bemindful of the people around you
.
But like, sometimes you just,sometimes you just can't, like
sometimes you just want to losecontrol a little bit.
(22:10):
Like sometimes you want to doyour chaos and sometimes you're
like, fuck it, who cares?
Right.
Like sometimes people are like,whatever, I don't I, the
consequences be damned.
Right, and if that's you right,you can damn the consequences.
But there will be some, right,like I definitely I had that for
myself, right, and so just knowthe kind of fire you're playing
(22:33):
with, really, yeah.
Ellecia (22:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But which is what's so helpfulabout things like this?
Right Is like you, cause youdon't know what you don't know,
right.
Annie (22:43):
So hearing people's experiences and going like, oh,
that's, that's what the firelooks like yeah, I mean look, I
remember saying to my ex-husbandin a very, very infancy of the
journey I was like, if at theend of this we don't end up
together like I am okay withthat, right, there was an
intuitive part of me that justkind of knew, right, and I don't
(23:07):
think and I remember sayingthis several times and I don't
think he ever heard it he wasjust like yeah, we'll go to
therapy, it's fine, right, andwe had very different truths in
this, right, and I'm not reallylike that was a chaotic period
of my life, but classically like, I'm not really like that was a
chaotic period of my life, butclassically like I'm not a
(23:28):
chaotic person.
So that was something verydifferent for me.
And I think in some way hewasn't able to look at that and
go, it's really different forher.
Why would she?
How would she do that, you know, whereas that kind of chaos was
kind of his normal and so hewasn't registering anything
different, right, like he wasalways kind of more chaotic,
(23:49):
more fly by the seat of hispants, I don't really care.
And so that felt like past thesalt for him and for me.
I was like, yeah, somethingreally different is happening
for me here, like I could verywell be on a very destructive
path and I mean I made a lot ofdecisions that severed
(24:12):
relationships and blew things up, and those were relationships
that needed to go anyway.
So it wasn't the losses feltgreat at the time, but in
hindsight it's no great loss.
Ellecia (24:23):
Yeah, yeah, truly, truly.
Annie (24:25):
I mean like I did it all Like I dated my best friends of
22 years.
Like you want to talk about baddecisions.
Ellecia (24:31):
Oh, oh, take it from me .
You don't know what you don'tknow.
I've made them all.
Annie (24:42):
Like I really did it.
Ellecia (24:44):
Oh, but we could do this.
Annie (24:50):
Yeah, like really, I was really just like yeah, whatever,
like maybe it's meant to be,maybe it's destiny, like now
it's just bad decisions.
Ellecia (25:02):
Oh, my goodness, I wonder, do you?
Do you look back and go like,even if we hadn't opened up at
some point, that would haveended?
Oh yeah.
Annie (25:11):
Oh yeah, I just think.
Well, this is part of my theory.
Is that, like?
Polyamory is really anaccelerant right?
It's going to show you exactlywhat your plot holes are?
Right, like I can name them allnow.
Right, like that marriage wasalways doomed to end because, at
the end of the day, he wantedcontrol of me, of everything I
(25:32):
did, of you know, my body, myjob, my relationships, my place
in life, my money.
Right, this just sped it up andit was easier to see when other
people were around.
Right?
And I've got my own plot holestoo.
I, I will lose myself in peoplelike there is no tomorrow,
right?
Um, I can be, you know, veryromantically centering of people
(25:57):
.
I idealize people I love.
Um, I've got a lot of goodqualities too and I, I learned
that, learned that.
I learned that I'm very giving,perhaps to a fault.
I learned a lot about mysexuality and my gender identity
, my queerness.
I was able to date a lot ofwomen and kind of learn about
(26:20):
myself in that arena.
I mean, it will just show youeverything and if you're
actually willing to listen, youcan learn a lot.
Ellecia (26:29):
Yeah, yeah, that's the best part, in my opinion.
Annie (26:34):
Yeah, the best part, yeah , I mean like I feel like in the
last five years I learned the20 years that I have spent in
adulthood was all kind ofcrammed, that blooming of it.
Like I feel like I was a littlebit of a late bloomer right
(26:54):
Like I came into polyamoryaround 36, 37.
And in those like four or fiveyears I learned everything about
my adult self that I needed toknow to get up to this point.
Ellecia (27:05):
Yeah, yeah, Do you?
I'm curious um, do you findthat you are more confident and
self-assured?
Annie (27:17):
Well, yeah, I mean for sure, for a lot of reasons,
right.
I mean I feel like the day Ileft my marriage was the day I
grew up, right, like I was like,okay, I'm an adult, now I'm
going to go, but I think, like Ithink that I'm more sexually
confident, I mean, and some ofthese things I'm still learning,
(27:38):
because, kind of living underthe control of my ex-husband
really stunted a lot of thingsabout my growth and confidence.
I'm always learning aboutthings that I thought I couldn't
do and that's helping me builda lot of confidence as well.
Still, there are some issues Ifeel like I will go to the
(27:58):
mattresses with anybody aboutnon-binary and trans issues,
about feminism, right, likethere's some about polyamory,
about relationship anarchy,right.
I feel very confident aboutsome of those issues and there
are issues that I still feellike I got a lot of growth and
learning I got to do over here.
Ellecia (28:17):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, I feel that, Totally,
totally Excuse me.
Do you?
Do you think polyamory, or evenlike non-monogamy, is a choice
(28:38):
or an orientation?
Annie (28:40):
I think it is both an orientation and a practice right
, distinct from one another butobviously intertwined.
Right, there is beingpolyamorous, which is the
orientation, and there ispolyamory, the practice right.
So the reason I make thisdistinction and I say that it is
firmly both is that a personcan identify as polyamorous but
(29:04):
not be necessarily practicingpolyamory.
And some people can be orientedmonogamously and, for whatever
reason, be finding themselves ina practice of polyamory.
So I think it is first andforemost in orientation, in the
same way that monogamy andambiamory are also orientations
(29:25):
right, I identify as anambiamorous person.
I'm capable of either apolyamorous or a monogamous
relationship, kind of justdependent on a variety of
factors, and I'm not distressedby either setup.
Really, of course, my versionof monogamy would never look
like your grandma's version ofmonogamy Right.
(29:46):
But I think that you know whatI don't think it is is a
lifestyle Right, like, like,they try to couch gayness as
like a lifestyle Right.
No, people are choosing thatbig old gay lifestyle Right.
I think you are, you know,either oriented that way or not.
But but sometimes, even whenwe're not oriented away, we
(30:10):
dabble in the practice andsometimes that's a process of
discovery and sometimes we fallon a spectrum just like anything
else.
Ellecia (30:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you.
I'm with you on that one.
Annie (30:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm just love to see us do as a, as a non-monogamous community
in general is like embrace thenuance, y'all.
Like there is so much nuancewhen you start unpacking these
concepts and that's kind of thebeauty of it, I mean, it's just
like the gender binary, right,like there's, so there's.
(31:04):
It's such a beautiful anddiverse spectrum and yeah, so
we're never going to be able toland on this very definitive
kind of answer.
But but why should we, you know?
Ellecia (31:17):
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, imagine if we had all grown up
knowing that we had all of theseoptions.
How much easier it would be toexplore the next level, right,
yeah, some of these conceptsthat feel really hard because
they were foreign in ourupbringing.
(31:39):
They were completely foreign,and so we're trying to wrap our
head around these concepts asadults.
And then we get it and we'relike, oh, now, okay, I see.
Annie (31:54):
Now, what's next?
Imagine if we had all grown upknowing that, like, we had all
these options available to us.
Well, when I look at my child,who is, you know, gen Alpha,
right, those kids are much morefluid.
They're having these kinds ofconversations much earlier, um,
you know, and and it gives melike so much hope, it it really
like, it really makes me smilewhen I see like the, the level
(32:18):
of like just knowledge andeducation that these kids have
on um, the emotional level, butalso on like the options level,
right, my child said somethingto me like I said, oh yeah, it's
like lots of those things, andthey were like, so would you say
, like you're polyamorous for it?
Like that's not really the word, but I love that for you,
(32:44):
that's not really like.
Ellecia (32:49):
That's not really the word, but I love that for you.
Annie (32:51):
Let's bring out a thesaurus now.
Yeah, I was like, I was like,yeah, like that's it, but I mean
like it's in their vernacular,it's in their ethos, and so it's
like it's a cool.
It's a cool thing to watchuh-huh, uh-huh, yeah, I love it.
Ellecia (33:02):
I have three teenagers who are like you know.
They're just like yeah, this isjust that's just what you do.
It's just life.
Annie (33:08):
Yeah, it's like normal for them, like it's like past
the salt.
Like we got, you know, like wegot.
We got a world of choices outthere.
Ellecia (33:16):
Yeah, one of my kids was like it's so weird, I'm the
only straight person in ourhouse.
Annie (33:21):
Sorry sorry, yeah, I mean , my mom sometimes talks about
like yeah, you know like she.
We were in the car the otherday and she said I'm just so
binary, I'm just a woman, and wewere like I know it's so weird,
we're like, we're so sorry foryou, like how are you this
(33:42):
straight?
Exactly like weird thoughts andprayers.
Ellecia (33:59):
Oh, you're a writer too .
Yes, yes, I am.
Yeah, yeah, tell me about that.
Annie (34:06):
So I have a couple of zines I've written.
Well, I've been a workingwriter my entire adult life,
right.
I've worked in like publicrelations and I've been a
blogger, and so I'm a careerwriter, right.
But I am also a poet and so Ihave an entire zine which is
called 24 Hours, which is aboutthe first year of my
(34:29):
non-monogamous practice, and itstarted as a chat book called
Cedar, which was about the kinkyasexual relationship I had with
my first partner, Sam, who wasmy submissive, with my first
partner, Sam, who was mysubmissive, and so it kind of
unfolds from there into someother relationships that I had.
(34:51):
I think it's about 80 pages.
So I wrote that.
And then I have sort of this.
It didn't really sell wellbecause it was like maybe a
little too triggering.
It's what would you call it,Creative nonfiction of a sort
called the Ride, which is aboutan experience that I had where,
(35:16):
basically, you know, if you'veever thought back in your
history and thought, was thatgreat?
You know you're like, did thathappen?
The way I thought it did Wasthat was my consent violated,
and in my early twenties maybe Iwas 19.
I was working as a hostess at arestaurant and a woman came up
to me and said I rode back fromcollege with your high school
(35:40):
boyfriend and he was very sorryabout what he did to you that
night in the bathroom.
I was like well, I gotta go,but it really stuck with me.
And so that zine is an imaginedconversation between her and my
(36:03):
ex-boyfriend on this ride andwhat I think happened between
them and kind of why she likebasically quandary that I was
having and it basicallychronicles the downfall of my
(36:45):
marriage.
Ellecia (36:45):
Pretty excited about that.
That sounds great, and it wasat the height of my polyamory as
well.
Yeah, yeah, I know that's um, Iam not a writer, uh, but but
the most writing I've done iswhen I'm like in turmoil and
crisis and emotional upheaval,uh, around relationships.
(37:09):
Um, that's, that's what I'vedone, the most writing.
Annie (37:13):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot there and I think you know
I've been putting the essays outone at a time on my Patreon and
I was like I don't want tolimit this to just the people
who are on my Patreon, likeanyone should be able to pick
this up for 10 bucks and likeread it Right, because I think
that that emotion is relatable,like we're all experiencing the
(37:34):
same set of emotions inpolyamory, right, even if the
situations are somewhatdifferent.
We're learning to sit withanxiety.
We're learning about what isautonomy.
You know we've all who aremarried and have kids had that
skeptical family member sayyou're going to get divorced.
And you know what?
A lot of us have gottendivorced after we swore we
(37:56):
wouldn't.
And you know I wanted at thetime, at the time that I was
writing all of these, theseworks that I've written, I
wasn't really setting out totell the exact story that I was
telling.
I was just writing what I felt,whether that was in poetry or in
story or in essay form.
But in this particular work,when it's strung together, I
(38:22):
think it really does tell thestory of coming into my
self-confidence and my truth,not just in the marriage but in
my relationship to polyamory andother people and where I stood
on that um, which is pretty, youknow, which was a pretty
painful journey, honestly.
Um, and as I think it is for alot of us, right, it's, it's,
(38:45):
it's not easy emotional work, um, and of course, you know that
lots of people will say to youalong the way well then, why are
you doing it?
Yep, but whether you ultimatelyend up in a very polyamorous
practice or relationship,anarchy or some kind of other
setup, these skills will pay youdividends.
(39:06):
Like, there is so much aboutmyself that I just don't.
I think it would have taken meso long to learn these lessons,
to understand who I was.
I think the growth wasexponential and just so worth it
in the end.
Ellecia (39:27):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Thank you for sharing that.
I think that this is going toend.
You know, people say that allthe time and I just I always
think like, well, if it does,then kind of good, because I
don't want to be in arelationship with someone who
doesn't want to be in arelationship with me, or in a
(39:48):
relationship that isn't servingeveryone in it.
Yeah, so if that's the case,then okay.
Annie (39:54):
Well, I think society sends us the message that the
worst thing you can be is like afailure at relationships, right
, like whatever, therelationship with myself is the
most important one.
And what society haseffectively done through their
pushing of this compulsory,toxic monogamy is separate me
(40:15):
from me.
And you know, I remember when Ihad like a pretty big
attachment rupture with mycurrent partner, like after my
divorce it was I mean, it wasworse than my divorce.
It still goes down in history.
We're still together, right,like it goes down in my history
as the one thing, like if I waslike acting, that's what I would
think of to make myselfimmediately cry, right.
(40:39):
But it also made me think whatam I doing with myself here that
I'm this afraid of a personleaving me, because being this
afraid it's going to get me isleft, because I'm going to be so
terrified all the time.
And I wish that we would havemore of a societal focus on
(41:01):
self-security and recognizinghealth and like centering
oneself.
Right, we're all so freakingtraumatized that we're clinging
onto other people instead ofcreating deep security.
And in this way, I think thepolyamorous community is kind of
onto something.
Right Like we're trying to dothe work to create self-security
(41:24):
.
We're not always succeedingright Like it takes a lot of
iterations of that, but we'reessentially removing the fear of
being left right and that'svery triggering for those
monogamous people.
How dare you not be afraid toend a relationship?
Ellecia (41:41):
What does that mean?
Annie (41:41):
for me.
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing,right, I always say this and
you know it's like it's notabout you monogamous, sallyally,
right, like there's this very,you know, divorce is not
necessarily contagious.
I'll say not necessarilybecause, like, people are
(42:02):
triggered by people leavingmarriages, being themselves
saying I've had enough of this,right, like, um, because a great
many people do make differentchoices, they will be being
treated poorly, abusively, notstanding in their worth, and
they worry.
What does that say about me ifI choose to stay right?
(42:25):
And so they will move away frompeople who are actively making
different choices than them.
It is a type of self protectionfor those people?
Ellecia (42:34):
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally yeah.
It's very much like wait.
If we're not all doing thisthing, then why am I doing it?
Yeah, yeah, but I'm doing it.
So.
Annie (42:45):
Yeah, and, and you know, I think that non-monogamous
people present a challenge tothat just by way of their
existence, right, in the sameway that non-binary and trans
people challenge masculinity.
Right, very triggering for thepatriarchy to face their
(43:08):
inequities, right, the fact that, oh, but I'm following the
rules, as a quote, unquote manand I'm not enough, I'm not
allowed to be myself.
How dare you partake of thistype of joy?
Right, it's triggering for themVery, very clearly.
Yeah, I mean so that.
(43:30):
And that's the thing, right,and that's why we have to keep
being loud, that's why we haveto keep existing in in joyful
ways and say like, if you'retriggered, be triggered.
Ellecia (43:42):
That's a you thing, let them.
Annie (43:44):
Yeah, let them.
Ellecia (43:45):
Oh, my God.
Annie (43:46):
I just bought it.
I just bought the book.
Yeah, let them, it's fine.
Yeah, I just bought it.
I haven't read it, bought it Ihaven't read it yet I haven't
read it yet either yeah, I'mlike, it's in my, it's in my
audible uh-huh.
Ellecia (43:58):
I just I just started a 365 day embroidery journal so I
can listen to more audiobooksand do something with my hands.
Annie (44:06):
Yes, I love that I drive a lot, so I am always at right
now I'm reading PleasureActivism by Adrienne Marie Brown
.
Oh my God.
Ellecia (44:15):
So good, so good.
I love that one.
Annie (44:18):
Yeah, I just feel like a really enhanced imperative right
now to really seek joy, right,like because for me, after I was
done, you know kind of likemourning the state of the world
in November, I was like, allright, like what are we going to
do?
Like we're not going to.
(44:39):
You know, like we have to behappy.
We deserve we still deserve joy.
So like, where am I going tofall on this?
Ellecia (44:45):
Yeah, yeah, it's the best way to fight it.
Yeah, so that's, that's kind ofthe trying over here.
Annie (44:53):
Yeah, so that's kind of the trying over here.
Where can people find you?
So you can find me on Instagramat Annie underscore Undone, and
you can also find me on Patreonat Annie Undone.
I have over 150 long formpieces of writing on there and
several collections writing onthere and several collections I.
(45:14):
You know.
I write about everything fromrelationship anarchy to domestic
violence, um, breakups anddivorce.
Uh, non-monogamy, kink sex.
Um, it's all there for you.
Um, and I also have a discordthat comes along with that, and
I also offer peer supportsone-to-one peer supports, which
is, honestly, some of myfavorite work that I do through
the page.
Um, it's just connecting withpeople on a one-to-one level.
Ellecia (45:35):
Yeah, yeah, I love that .
That's amazing.
I have one more question foryou, and this one does not go on
the regular um uh episode, butis for my Patreon supporters.
It's called uh, just the tip Uh, and it's um.
What is uh your favorite orbest sex tip?
Amazing.
(46:06):
Thank you so much for coming onand talking to me.
Annie (46:10):
It was my pleasure.
Thank you for having me comingon and talking to me.
Ellecia (46:14):
It was my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Okay, that was Annie, undonewith her.
Just the Tip for my Patreonlovers and friends with benefits
If you didn't get to hear thattip, go to patreoncom slash, not
monogamous and get signed up soyou can get the juicy bits If
you want to follow Annie on hersocial media or her Patreon
(46:35):
links in the show notes.
Bye.
Hey friends, welcome back to Nope we're Not
Monogamous, the podcast where welaugh, learn and explore the
wonderfully weird world ofnon-traditional relationships.
I'm your relationship ElleciaPaine, and today we're having
one of the most honest,eye-opening conversations yet.
So here's the deal.
Most people are terrified thatopening their relationship will
lead to the end of theirrelationship, and you know what
(00:21):
Annie andone says they'reprobably right, but the ending
doesn't have to be a bad thingand also isn't inevitable.
Annie's a writer, artist,relationship anarchist, with
sass and insight that only anon-binary babe can bring.
She's been through it allMonogamy, swinging polyamory and
now relationship anarchy.
And today we're going to unpackwhat it really means to open up
(00:43):
a relationship, the challengesof taking it slow and how to
embrace those transitionswithout too much fear.
Oh, and before we jump in,here's a quick shout out to you,
my listeners and viewers If youlove what you hear today, do me
a solid, follow the podcast,leave a review.
When you do that, I'll give youa personal shout out on one of
(01:04):
the upcoming episodes and it'smy way of saying thank you for
being a big part of this growingcommunity.
And if you aren't on my emaillist yet, go to aliciapaincom.
It's the best way to stay inthe loop for tips, events, new
episodes, other good stuff.
I'd love to see you there.
Okay, let's explore theterrifying, exciting and
transformational truth aboutopening relationships with the
(01:28):
incredible Annie Undone.
Let's go, okay.
Let's first of all welcomeWelcome to Nope.
We're Not Monogamous.
I'm really really happy thatyou're here.
I'm excited to have you.
Do you want to?
Do you want to tell thelisteners just a quick little
like who you are?
Annie (01:45):
Do you want to tell the listeners just?
Ellecia (01:46):
a quick little like who you are yeah.
Annie (01:49):
Okay, so I'm Anne Dunn.
I started like making contenton Instagram back in probably
like 2021, 2022 area, when Iopened up my marriage of 16
years and we were practicingpolyamory.
Kind of like.
My stump speech is that I'vepracticed every single
relationship style under the sun, from monogamy to non-monogamy
(02:12):
to swinging polyamory, and nowI'm a relationship anarchist and
I'm looking to kind ofnormalize, moving very fluidly
through relationship styleswithout stigmatizing any of them
, moving very fluidly throughrelationship styles without
stigmatizing any of them.
Ellecia (02:27):
Yeah, I love that and actually it's super relatable
because we've done I have gonethrough that that, that
iteration of all those thingsDid you?
Annie (02:39):
I feel like I've been following you for a long time on
Instagram Did you used to notshow your face?
Ellecia (02:44):
That's true, yeah.
So okay, I was like, like am Iputting the right memory
together here?
Annie (02:48):
yeah, my ex kind of didn't want me showing my face,
for you know some, somelegitimate reasons, um, but when
we got divorced, I was like,what am I doing this for?
Like there's nothing, there'snothing left to hide, and I
thought that it was going to belike this big fanfare of like.
Oh my god, I'm showing my faceand I thought, you know, this is
going to be like this bigfanfare of like.
Oh my God, I'm showing my faceand I thought, you know, this is
going to like maybe impact mylife in some way.
(03:08):
And that turned out to not betrue.
So I'm no longer anonymous, andI guess it's been that way for
about a year and a half, and itwas a great choice.
I'm very happy with it.
Ellecia (03:18):
Yeah, yeah, Amazing.
You know, I feel like that kindof is what happens every step
of the way, right, Like openinga relationship.
You're like, oh my God ifpeople find out.
And then like, okay, well, somepeople know now and I haven't
died.
And then you know, like thenext step, like oh my God, what
if people find out?
(03:38):
And then it's like, oh, okay,we did that.
Annie (03:40):
I'm still fine, absolutely.
I mean, I think I have suffereddifferent impacts than some, in
that I got a divorce and mypolyamory was weaponized against
me, not just in my friend group, not just in the family that I
was exiting, but also in thecourt system, and that was
(04:03):
really difficult for me, butalso in the court system, and
that was really difficult for me.
But I will say that even withall of that, the storm was
weatherable and I don't regretany of my decisions.
Ellecia (04:14):
Yeah, yeah, beautiful, good, good.
Similarly, we actually we wentthrough a custody case with
non-monogamy being the centralargument and at the end they
were like, well, don't do sexthings in front of your kids,
like you know, none of us do,and we're fine.
We were like cool, we neverhave and we won't.
Annie (04:36):
It was a very odd and surreal experience to watch my
page come up in court documents,to like see all of that
happening and thinking, wow,what am I putting on the line?
To like run this account and tosay what I need to say.
And I just decided not to waverfrom my sticking point that I
(04:59):
was like I know that I'm a goodparent, I know that I'm not
doing anything wrong, that mylife is consistent, steady and
stable and all those things.
I know that I'm a good parent,I know that I'm not doing
anything wrong, that my life isconsistent, steady and stable,
and all those things you knowwere fine.
In the end, you know, I think,if there's anyone going through
that, I think what most peopleare so afraid of is like what's
going to happen in court.
But you know, most court casesdo not make it in front of a
(05:21):
judge and I think that's reallyimportant to note for most
people who are being likelegally threatened by a bitter
ex.
Ellecia (05:30):
Yeah, yeah, truly truly .
It is the fear of it, notalways, but often the fear of it
is bigger than what actuallyhappens, and it's so fucking
(05:59):
stressful.
Annie (05:59):
It's so stressful.
Married couples right, and alot of us have these starry-eyed
notions of we can weatheranything.
The couple comes first and yada, yada, yada.
But the truth is, when you opena previously monogamous
relationship, whether you'remarried or not, the likelihood
that you're going to lose thatrelationship is pretty high.
(06:19):
So I think, people don't love tohear that and of course,
whenever I say it, there'simmediately the people who are
like yeah, but not me.
And I was firmly in the yeahbut not me camp until it was me
and I thought even in that thatI was being realistic, like
(06:41):
going in.
But I think that there's lotsof reasons why that happens to
couples.
Breaking codependency is reallyreally hard.
For those of us who have comeup in compulsory monogamous
culture which is basically allof us and redefining an entire
relationship, there is generallya more reluctant partner and
(07:06):
you know, for some of us, oncewe open into that right we can't
go back, and that's not alwaysa.
That doesn't always mean wecan't go back to monogamy in
general.
Sometimes it just means I can'tbe monogamous with you anymore
and people also don't like tohear that.
Ellecia (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's so true.
I mean you're just, anytimeyou're making changes, you've
made the change.
Like you have changed thingsand that might may not be the
final like iteration of it, butlike you have changed things,
it's like you know, uh, you knowit's.
I have people often that arelike in the like dating right,
they're like single and dating.
They're like.
I know I don't want to bemonogamous, but like, shouldn't
(07:50):
I meet someone like, like, builda solid foundation of monogamy?
And I'm always saying, like,actually begin as you intend to
go on.
Don't create a monogamousrelationship and then knock down
a few walls later on, thinkingit'll be fine, like you can do
that, but you're going to saveyourself some steps.
Annie (08:08):
Yeah, I think that I think that opening a
relationship once it's closed isis really difficult, um, and I
also think that you have tothink about what are your
ultimate goals, too, right, likewhat kind of relationship do
you want to have?
I think there's also thesticking point for a lot of
couples, right, like what kindof relationship do you wanna
have?
I think there's also thesticking point for a lot of
couples, right, is they're likebut in this other relationship
we don't talk to each other likethis.
(08:30):
In this other relationshipwe're able to have these
conversations or have thisvulnerability, right?
So I think we tend to getsometimes stuck in those
paradigms.
Like Jessica Fern talks a lotabout this in Pollywise, the
paradigm shift, right, and so alot of it is about, like,
(08:51):
mentality, right?
So if you think you're going togo into a relationship and form
a monogamous foundation, thenit's going to be built on a
monogamous foundation, right?
So I would more suggest, or orgently nudge people towards a
relationship anarchistfoundation.
Take the mononormativity andthe heteronormativity out of the
(09:16):
base of your practice, becauseif you do that, you will have
more options ultimately moreoptions ultimately, can you
explain?
Ellecia (09:26):
this is one that is often weird and hard to explain
for you.
Annie (09:34):
What does relationship anarchy mean?
Very, very simple, right?
People love to overcomplicatethis.
Right, Relationship anarchysimply means tailor-making
relationships for exactly thepeople in them.
There is no parameters.
This is not some big,mysterious thing, right?
If you look at the RelationshipAnarchy Manifesto, it is such a
simple document.
Right, it's so short.
It's like what?
(09:56):
Five, six paragraphs.
Right, it's really simple andthat can mean anything.
Right, you can be arelationship anarchist and be
monogamous.
You can be non-monogamous, youcan be polyamorous.
You can be some shade of grayof that.
Right, it's an inclusive term.
Ellecia (10:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it that.
That has been the most, I don'tknow.
The thing that I'm alwaystrying to tell people is you
want a relationship that worksfor the people in the
relationship and not for thepeople that are looking outward
in, and often that's what we'rebuilding is relationships that
work for the people lookingoutward in.
Annie (10:37):
I think too, sometimes we see relationship anarchy as
this weird Buddha Buddha levelenlightenment version of
polyamory.
Right, and I just rail sovehemently against this because
it's not like some destination.
I think that a lot ofpolyamorous people, as we go
(10:58):
through shifts in ourrelationship setups, sometimes
our priorities shift, and so myrelationship practice means
something very different for menow than it did five years ago.
Right, part of my practiceincludes the decentralization of
romance and the centering ofmyself.
It includes intergenerationalliving, which is something that
(11:21):
was very important to me, likemost of my adult life, but I
wasn't really sure how to getthere, and so the priority for
me isn't on multiple romanticrelationships, right, and you
know, look, some polyamorouspeople will fight to the death
(11:43):
on this right.
Polyamorous people will fight tothe death on this right that it
means multiple sexual andromantic relationships.
I will die on this hill becausethat is not inclusive, right,
this excludes asexual andaromantic people who do not
participate along binary lines,and so, really, when we begin to
(12:03):
blow out the definition to bemore inclusive, the titles don't
matter anymore.
It's really just about love,and that's why I am so crazy
about relationship anarchy,because it is the gray areas.
It's and and wonderful that youdon't have to be attached to
(12:27):
like one way of doing anything.
Ellecia (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love that.
I love that so much.
It's so good there's.
So I feel like when we, youknow, we, we kind of like we
grow up, we're, we're dating, westart dating, we start doing
those things and it's we're sofocused on finding a person and
(12:50):
that romance and sex all has tobe a part of it, and and then,
and then we kind of start movingout of that into you know, like
if you're going from monogamyto non-monogamy, there's still
like it's so the romance and thesex are such a central part,
and that is the part that oftenscrews us up, that often makes
us make decisions we didn't wantto make, do things we didn't
(13:12):
want to do, say yes to thingswe're really a no to, because
but the romance and the sex haveto like I don't know, they they
almost make us, we, we putthose almost on a pedestal,
above our own actual needs.
Annie (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I had some really interesting
experiences coming intopolyamory.
I came into polyamory by way ofkink, so I, um, my first
polyamorous partner was anasexual kink partner, um, but he
was not a romantic and he wasin fact very romantic and it
(13:47):
kind of immediately beganparsing out concepts for me in a
way that I didn't necessarilyknow was happening at first, but
it helped me.
It was the first time thatsomeone said to me I really
don't care what you look like.
You basically have no, nosexual value to me.
Like, who are you I'minterested in being romantic
(14:10):
with, with your personality,with your soul, right Like that
was like a very mind-blowingconcept to me.
And as a, a female person,assigned female at birth, I'm a
non-binary human.
I've learned, but at the time,as the world views me as female
(14:31):
and like over-sexualizes me in alot of ways, that was so
appealing to me.
And it still took me a lot ofiterations in polyamory to get
that out of my system.
Right Like I'm a very slutty,dirty person and that's a whole
facet of me.
But as I was able to explorethose concepts, I was like, oh
(14:54):
my God, I'm demisexual.
Like, if I sleep with someonetoo many times I don't even have
to like them, I think I'm inlove with them.
What in the heck, right Like Iwas like I hate this, so it it
got me to the place where now Ican ask myself what is emotional
safety for me and how?
(15:16):
How do I want the interplay ofemotional safety and sexuality
to happen for me, right, andwhat types of relationships do I
want to have and what othertypes of love do I want to
experience?
Because this is just one right.
Romantic love and sexualexpression, that's one thing,
right, but there's so many typesof love to experience, right
(15:41):
Like.
Imagine me on the precipice ofdivorce, being like moving back
in with my mom at 37 years old.
Right, and now, almost threeyears later, my mom and I doing
relationship anarchy style, workto deconstruct where's the line
(16:02):
between being a parent andbeing a roommate, from being a
grandparent to being a parent,how are we dealing with our
trauma and how is that affectingus?
Right Like.
I had a conversation with mymom and I was like I think that
some of your attachment issues,you think I'm like always
running out the door, I'mcommitted to this living
situation with you.
I need you to understand thatright.
(16:23):
That is a different type ofdeep, deep work.
It goes beyond the bonds offamily that we actually have
decided we like each other.
Yes, yes, oh, my God, I lovethat so much so I think and it's
been and actually it's beenreally, really interesting,
because my mom is a therapist,right, and so watching her
(16:48):
journey, as she's been like okay, let me see what you got going
on there, Watching her read thebooks and watching her be like I
think I want to have somepolyamorous experiences.
I think I want to have somepolyamorous clients.
I think I want to work withthis population.
Her and I did a workshoptogether this year, right.
Like our relationship has alsogotten more dimensional as we
(17:13):
have explored.
You know, what do these thingsmean to us as a family?
Ellecia (17:18):
Yeah, Gosh, I love that so much, like a lot, a lot.
Annie (17:23):
I mean, and I don't think that this is this isn lot, a
lot, yeah, yeah, I mean, and Idon't think that this is this
isn't the traditional way, right, when we think about where do
the roads to polyamory lead forpeople?
Right, and you know this ispart of my relationship anarchy,
because it's like you know, wegenerally think about
individualizing away from ourparents as having my own house
(17:45):
and having my own.
Well, for me, individualizingaway from my mom is saying no,
no, no.
I want to have thisconversation about like trans
advocacy with you and I want tolike, I want to have a really
clear and specific opinion onthis and I want to debate this
clinically with you and I wantto talk about how you support
people and how I support peopleand I want to dig into these
(18:08):
like other concepts about youknow, how am I parenting my
child and what is your role inthat as a grandparent who's
living in the house and where doI not want you to interfere?
Right, like I want to dig intothat.
Ellecia (18:20):
Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's funny because you say
this isn't the traditional way,but, like only for the last,
like hundred and fifty years.
Is that not the traditional way, right, right?
Actually, this is, this is whatwe've been doing for most of
humanity and we've gotten awayfrom it, and so it's really
beautiful to to, to find thetools to be able to come back
(18:41):
around to what actually is verylike nurturing and supportive
and like supports the wholefamily.
Annie (18:47):
And it's hard.
You know it's also difficult,right, like I was like oh, all
the work I'm doing in therapynow it's just like all like
centered around, like family andbreaking these cycles, and this
is really uncomfortable.
I I miss sometimes just doingthe like.
Can I just be jealous ofsomething?
Ellecia (19:08):
Can't we just talk about like easy boundaries yeah.
Annie (19:19):
It's hard.
It's hard work, but it's it'sworthy work, because we get the
types of intergenerationalexchanges that are often lost to
isolation.
Ellecia (19:24):
Frankly, Mm-hmm, mm-hmm , yeah, yeah, I love it.
Changes that are often lost toisolation.
Frankly, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah,yeah, I love it, it's so good,
it's so good.
What?
I'm curious, what do you think?
Hmm, I keep thinking about,like people that are opening up,
going, you know, kind of goingthrough the stages, like we want
(19:47):
to be sexually open, we want tobe polyamorous, we want kitchen
table Polly, we want and thenexpanding and learning more
about themselves.
And I'm curious, what if youcould give someone a way to like
skip some of the, some of thethings that could be skipped, or
(20:07):
like fast track some of thelessons?
What would you?
What would you tell people?
Like, how, how do they, how canthey keep moving faster, but
not too fast?
Annie (20:20):
I mean I would say slow down, I would say don't go fast,
right, I mean I think that Ithink that the fast track is the
disaster track and look, don'tget me wrong.
Right, like, I think, if youwant to go fast, if you'd rather
do your chaos on the front end,um, it's valuable but it can be
really destructive.
Ellecia (20:41):
Right.
Annie (20:42):
Um, and I think that, like, the excitement that comes
with opening changes the pace atwhich we open, and I think that
people are very eager in thosemoments.
There is such a frenzy thathappens around that.
And, like I remember my friendwho basically, like she
(21:02):
introduced me to likenon-monogamy.
She was like we're swingers andlike we're having the best time
of our lives Two years after wehad opened our marriages.
We were both like God, missFrenzy, don't you just miss that
?
Right.
And so I will give this kind oftwo sides of the coin advice,
right, like if you are sofreaking turned on that you
(21:25):
can't slow down, right, I'm notgoing to tell you don't do that,
I'm going to tell you, do whatyou got to do, right.
But I think that you know someof that joyful chaos that we
engage in in the beginning ofour polyamorous journeys, engage
(21:49):
in in the beginning of ourpolyamorous journeys, it's not
sustainable.
And now I'm very slow, verymetered, very intentional, but
that was forged in the fire ofchaos, right.
And so I think there's no magicbullet for couples opening up,
right, like you got to gothrough what you got to go
through and you have to bemindful of the people around you
.
But like, sometimes you just,sometimes you just can't, like
sometimes you just want to losecontrol a little bit.
(22:10):
Like sometimes you want to doyour chaos and sometimes you're
like, fuck it, who cares?
Right.
Like sometimes people are like,whatever, I don't I, the
consequences be damned.
Right, and if that's you right,you can damn the consequences.
But there will be some, right,like I definitely I had that for
myself, right, and so just knowthe kind of fire you're playing
(22:33):
with, really, yeah.
Ellecia (22:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But which is what's so helpfulabout things like this?
Right Is like you, cause youdon't know what you don't know,
right.
Annie (22:43):
So hearing people's experiences and going like, oh,
that's, that's what the firelooks like yeah, I mean look, I
remember saying to my ex-husbandin a very, very infancy of the
journey I was like, if at theend of this we don't end up
together like I am okay withthat, right, there was an
intuitive part of me that justkind of knew, right, and I don't
(23:07):
think and I remember sayingthis several times and I don't
think he ever heard it he wasjust like yeah, we'll go to
therapy, it's fine, right, andwe had very different truths in
this, right, and I'm not reallylike that was a chaotic period
of my life, but classically like, I'm not really like that was a
chaotic period of my life, butclassically like I'm not a
(23:28):
chaotic person.
So that was something verydifferent for me.
And I think in some way hewasn't able to look at that and
go, it's really different forher.
Why would she?
How would she do that, you know, whereas that kind of chaos was
kind of his normal and so hewasn't registering anything
different, right, like he wasalways kind of more chaotic,
(23:49):
more fly by the seat of hispants, I don't really care.
And so that felt like past thesalt for him and for me.
I was like, yeah, somethingreally different is happening
for me here, like I could verywell be on a very destructive
path and I mean I made a lot ofdecisions that severed
(24:12):
relationships and blew things up, and those were relationships
that needed to go anyway.
So it wasn't the losses feltgreat at the time, but in
hindsight it's no great loss.
Ellecia (24:23):
Yeah, yeah, truly, truly.
Annie (24:25):
I mean like I did it all Like I dated my best friends of
22 years.
Like you want to talk about baddecisions.
Ellecia (24:31):
Oh, oh, take it from me .
You don't know what you don'tknow.
I've made them all.
Annie (24:42):
Like I really did it.
Ellecia (24:44):
Oh, but we could do this.
Annie (24:50):
Yeah, like really, I was really just like yeah, whatever,
like maybe it's meant to be,maybe it's destiny, like now
it's just bad decisions.
Ellecia (25:02):
Oh, my goodness, I wonder, do you?
Do you look back and go like,even if we hadn't opened up at
some point, that would haveended?
Oh yeah.
Annie (25:11):
Oh yeah, I just think.
Well, this is part of my theory.
Is that, like?
Polyamory is really anaccelerant right?
It's going to show you exactlywhat your plot holes are?
Right, like I can name them allnow.
Right, like that marriage wasalways doomed to end because, at
the end of the day, he wantedcontrol of me, of everything I
(25:32):
did, of you know, my body, myjob, my relationships, my place
in life, my money.
Right, this just sped it up andit was easier to see when other
people were around.
Right?
And I've got my own plot holestoo.
I, I will lose myself in peoplelike there is no tomorrow,
right?
Um, I can be, you know, veryromantically centering of people
(25:57):
.
I idealize people I love.
Um, I've got a lot of goodqualities too and I, I learned
that, learned that.
I learned that I'm very giving,perhaps to a fault.
I learned a lot about mysexuality and my gender identity
, my queerness.
I was able to date a lot ofwomen and kind of learn about
(26:20):
myself in that arena.
I mean, it will just show youeverything and if you're
actually willing to listen, youcan learn a lot.
Ellecia (26:29):
Yeah, yeah, that's the best part, in my opinion.
Annie (26:34):
Yeah, the best part, yeah , I mean like I feel like in the
last five years I learned the20 years that I have spent in
adulthood was all kind ofcrammed, that blooming of it.
Like I feel like I was a littlebit of a late bloomer right
(26:54):
Like I came into polyamoryaround 36, 37.
And in those like four or fiveyears I learned everything about
my adult self that I needed toknow to get up to this point.
Ellecia (27:05):
Yeah, yeah, Do you?
I'm curious um, do you findthat you are more confident and
self-assured?
Annie (27:17):
Well, yeah, I mean for sure, for a lot of reasons,
right.
I mean I feel like the day Ileft my marriage was the day I
grew up, right, like I was like,okay, I'm an adult, now I'm
going to go, but I think, like Ithink that I'm more sexually
confident, I mean, and some ofthese things I'm still learning,
(27:38):
because, kind of living underthe control of my ex-husband
really stunted a lot of thingsabout my growth and confidence.
I'm always learning aboutthings that I thought I couldn't
do and that's helping me builda lot of confidence as well.
Still, there are some issues Ifeel like I will go to the
(27:58):
mattresses with anybody aboutnon-binary and trans issues,
about feminism, right, likethere's some about polyamory,
about relationship anarchy,right.
I feel very confident aboutsome of those issues and there
are issues that I still feellike I got a lot of growth and
learning I got to do over here.
Ellecia (28:17):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, I feel that, Totally,
totally Excuse me.
Do you?
Do you think polyamory, or evenlike non-monogamy, is a choice
(28:38):
or an orientation?
Annie (28:40):
I think it is both an orientation and a practice right
, distinct from one another butobviously intertwined.
Right, there is beingpolyamorous, which is the
orientation, and there ispolyamory, the practice right.
So the reason I make thisdistinction and I say that it is
firmly both is that a personcan identify as polyamorous but
(29:04):
not be necessarily practicingpolyamory.
And some people can be orientedmonogamously and, for whatever
reason, be finding themselves ina practice of polyamory.
So I think it is first andforemost in orientation, in the
same way that monogamy andambiamory are also orientations
(29:25):
right, I identify as anambiamorous person.
I'm capable of either apolyamorous or a monogamous
relationship, kind of justdependent on a variety of
factors, and I'm not distressedby either setup.
Really, of course, my versionof monogamy would never look
like your grandma's version ofmonogamy Right.
(29:46):
But I think that you know whatI don't think it is is a
lifestyle Right, like, like,they try to couch gayness as
like a lifestyle Right.
No, people are choosing thatbig old gay lifestyle Right.
I think you are, you know,either oriented that way or not.
But but sometimes, even whenwe're not oriented away, we
(30:10):
dabble in the practice andsometimes that's a process of
discovery and sometimes we fallon a spectrum just like anything
else.
Ellecia (30:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you.
I'm with you on that one.
Annie (30:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm just love to see us do as a, as a non-monogamous community
in general is like embrace thenuance, y'all.
Like there is so much nuancewhen you start unpacking these
concepts and that's kind of thebeauty of it, I mean, it's just
like the gender binary, right,like there's, so there's.
(31:04):
It's such a beautiful anddiverse spectrum and yeah, so
we're never going to be able toland on this very definitive
kind of answer.
But but why should we, you know?
Ellecia (31:17):
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, imagine if we had all grown up
knowing that we had all of theseoptions.
How much easier it would be toexplore the next level, right,
yeah, some of these conceptsthat feel really hard because
they were foreign in ourupbringing.
(31:39):
They were completely foreign,and so we're trying to wrap our
head around these concepts asadults.
And then we get it and we'relike, oh, now, okay, I see.
Annie (31:54):
Now, what's next?
Imagine if we had all grown upknowing that, like, we had all
these options available to us.
Well, when I look at my child,who is, you know, gen Alpha,
right, those kids are much morefluid.
They're having these kinds ofconversations much earlier, um,
you know, and and it gives melike so much hope, it it really
like, it really makes me smilewhen I see like the, the level
(32:18):
of like just knowledge andeducation that these kids have
on um, the emotional level, butalso on like the options level,
right, my child said somethingto me like I said, oh yeah, it's
like lots of those things, andthey were like, so would you say
, like you're polyamorous for it?
Like that's not really the word, but I love that for you,
(32:44):
that's not really like.
Ellecia (32:49):
That's not really the word, but I love that for you.
Annie (32:51):
Let's bring out a thesaurus now.
Yeah, I was like, I was like,yeah, like that's it, but I mean
like it's in their vernacular,it's in their ethos, and so it's
like it's a cool.
It's a cool thing to watchuh-huh, uh-huh, yeah, I love it.
Ellecia (33:02):
I have three teenagers who are like you know.
They're just like yeah, this isjust that's just what you do.
It's just life.
Annie (33:08):
Yeah, it's like normal for them, like it's like past
the salt.
Like we got, you know, like wegot.
We got a world of choices outthere.
Ellecia (33:16):
Yeah, one of my kids was like it's so weird, I'm the
only straight person in ourhouse.
Annie (33:21):
Sorry sorry, yeah, I mean , my mom sometimes talks about
like yeah, you know like she.
We were in the car the otherday and she said I'm just so
binary, I'm just a woman, and wewere like I know it's so weird,
we're like, we're so sorry foryou, like how are you this
(33:42):
straight?
Exactly like weird thoughts andprayers.
Ellecia (33:59):
Oh, you're a writer too .
Yes, yes, I am.
Yeah, yeah, tell me about that.
Annie (34:06):
So I have a couple of zines I've written.
Well, I've been a workingwriter my entire adult life,
right.
I've worked in like publicrelations and I've been a
blogger, and so I'm a careerwriter, right.
But I am also a poet and so Ihave an entire zine which is
called 24 Hours, which is aboutthe first year of my
(34:29):
non-monogamous practice, and itstarted as a chat book called
Cedar, which was about the kinkyasexual relationship I had with
my first partner, Sam, who wasmy submissive, with my first
partner, Sam, who was mysubmissive, and so it kind of
unfolds from there into someother relationships that I had.
(34:51):
I think it's about 80 pages.
So I wrote that.
And then I have sort of this.
It didn't really sell wellbecause it was like maybe a
little too triggering.
It's what would you call it,Creative nonfiction of a sort
called the Ride, which is aboutan experience that I had where,
(35:16):
basically, you know, if you'veever thought back in your
history and thought, was thatgreat?
You know you're like, did thathappen?
The way I thought it did Wasthat was my consent violated,
and in my early twenties maybe Iwas 19.
I was working as a hostess at arestaurant and a woman came up
to me and said I rode back fromcollege with your high school
(35:40):
boyfriend and he was very sorryabout what he did to you that
night in the bathroom.
I was like well, I gotta go,but it really stuck with me.
And so that zine is an imaginedconversation between her and my
(36:03):
ex-boyfriend on this ride andwhat I think happened between
them and kind of why she likebasically quandary that I was
having and it basicallychronicles the downfall of my
(36:45):
marriage.
Ellecia (36:45):
Pretty excited about that.
That sounds great, and it wasat the height of my polyamory as
well.
Yeah, yeah, I know that's um, Iam not a writer, uh, but but
the most writing I've done iswhen I'm like in turmoil and
crisis and emotional upheaval,uh, around relationships.
(37:09):
Um, that's, that's what I'vedone, the most writing.
Annie (37:13):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot there and I think you know
I've been putting the essays outone at a time on my Patreon and
I was like I don't want tolimit this to just the people
who are on my Patreon, likeanyone should be able to pick
this up for 10 bucks and likeread it Right, because I think
that that emotion is relatable,like we're all experiencing the
(37:34):
same set of emotions inpolyamory, right, even if the
situations are somewhatdifferent.
We're learning to sit withanxiety.
We're learning about what isautonomy.
You know we've all who aremarried and have kids had that
skeptical family member sayyou're going to get divorced.
And you know what?
A lot of us have gottendivorced after we swore we
(37:56):
wouldn't.
And you know I wanted at thetime, at the time that I was
writing all of these, theseworks that I've written, I
wasn't really setting out totell the exact story that I was
telling.
I was just writing what I felt,whether that was in poetry or in
story or in essay form.
But in this particular work,when it's strung together, I
(38:22):
think it really does tell thestory of coming into my
self-confidence and my truth,not just in the marriage but in
my relationship to polyamory andother people and where I stood
on that um, which is pretty, youknow, which was a pretty
painful journey, honestly.
Um, and as I think it is for alot of us, right, it's, it's,
(38:45):
it's not easy emotional work, um, and of course, you know that
lots of people will say to youalong the way well then, why are
you doing it?
Yep, but whether you ultimatelyend up in a very polyamorous
practice or relationship,anarchy or some kind of other
setup, these skills will pay youdividends.
(39:06):
Like, there is so much aboutmyself that I just don't.
I think it would have taken meso long to learn these lessons,
to understand who I was.
I think the growth wasexponential and just so worth it
in the end.
Ellecia (39:27):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Thank you for sharing that.
I think that this is going toend.
You know, people say that allthe time and I just I always
think like, well, if it does,then kind of good, because I
don't want to be in arelationship with someone who
doesn't want to be in arelationship with me, or in a
(39:48):
relationship that isn't servingeveryone in it.
Yeah, so if that's the case,then okay.
Annie (39:54):
Well, I think society sends us the message that the
worst thing you can be is like afailure at relationships, right
, like whatever, therelationship with myself is the
most important one.
And what society haseffectively done through their
pushing of this compulsory,toxic monogamy is separate me
(40:15):
from me.
And you know, I remember when Ihad like a pretty big
attachment rupture with mycurrent partner, like after my
divorce it was I mean, it wasworse than my divorce.
It still goes down in history.
We're still together, right,like it goes down in my history
as the one thing, like if I waslike acting, that's what I would
think of to make myselfimmediately cry, right.
(40:39):
But it also made me think whatam I doing with myself here that
I'm this afraid of a personleaving me, because being this
afraid it's going to get me isleft, because I'm going to be so
terrified all the time.
And I wish that we would havemore of a societal focus on
(41:01):
self-security and recognizinghealth and like centering
oneself.
Right, we're all so freakingtraumatized that we're clinging
onto other people instead ofcreating deep security.
And in this way, I think thepolyamorous community is kind of
onto something.
Right Like we're trying to dothe work to create self-security
(41:24):
.
We're not always succeedingright Like it takes a lot of
iterations of that, but we'reessentially removing the fear of
being left right and that'svery triggering for those
monogamous people.
How dare you not be afraid toend a relationship?
Ellecia (41:41):
What does that mean?
Annie (41:41):
for me.
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing,right, I always say this and
you know it's like it's notabout you monogamous, sallyally,
right, like there's this very,you know, divorce is not
necessarily contagious.
I'll say not necessarilybecause, like, people are
(42:02):
triggered by people leavingmarriages, being themselves
saying I've had enough of this,right, like, um, because a great
many people do make differentchoices, they will be being
treated poorly, abusively, notstanding in their worth, and
they worry.
What does that say about me ifI choose to stay right?
(42:25):
And so they will move away frompeople who are actively making
different choices than them.
It is a type of self protectionfor those people?
Ellecia (42:34):
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally yeah.
It's very much like wait.
If we're not all doing thisthing, then why am I doing it?
Yeah, yeah, but I'm doing it.
So.
Annie (42:45):
Yeah, and, and you know, I think that non-monogamous
people present a challenge tothat just by way of their
existence, right, in the sameway that non-binary and trans
people challenge masculinity.
Right, very triggering for thepatriarchy to face their
(43:08):
inequities, right, the fact that, oh, but I'm following the
rules, as a quote, unquote manand I'm not enough, I'm not
allowed to be myself.
How dare you partake of thistype of joy?
Right, it's triggering for themVery, very clearly.
Yeah, I mean so that.
(43:30):
And that's the thing, right,and that's why we have to keep
being loud, that's why we haveto keep existing in in joyful
ways and say like, if you'retriggered, be triggered.
Ellecia (43:42):
That's a you thing, let them.
Annie (43:44):
Yeah, let them.
Ellecia (43:45):
Oh, my God.
Annie (43:46):
I just bought it.
I just bought the book.
Yeah, let them, it's fine.
Yeah, I just bought it.
I haven't read it, bought it Ihaven't read it yet I haven't
read it yet either yeah, I'mlike, it's in my, it's in my
audible uh-huh.
Ellecia (43:58):
I just I just started a 365 day embroidery journal so I
can listen to more audiobooksand do something with my hands.
Annie (44:06):
Yes, I love that I drive a lot, so I am always at right
now I'm reading PleasureActivism by Adrienne Marie Brown
.
Oh my God.
Ellecia (44:15):
So good, so good.
I love that one.
Annie (44:18):
Yeah, I just feel like a really enhanced imperative right
now to really seek joy, right,like because for me, after I was
done, you know kind of likemourning the state of the world
in November, I was like, allright, like what are we going to
do?
Like we're not going to.
(44:39):
You know, like we have to behappy.
We deserve we still deserve joy.
So like, where am I going tofall on this?
Ellecia (44:45):
Yeah, yeah, it's the best way to fight it.
Yeah, so that's, that's kind ofthe trying over here.
Annie (44:53):
Yeah, so that's kind of the trying over here.
Where can people find you?
So you can find me on Instagramat Annie underscore Undone, and
you can also find me on Patreonat Annie Undone.
I have over 150 long formpieces of writing on there and
several collections writing onthere and several collections I.
(45:14):
You know.
I write about everything fromrelationship anarchy to domestic
violence, um, breakups anddivorce.
Uh, non-monogamy, kink sex.
Um, it's all there for you.
Um, and I also have a discordthat comes along with that, and
I also offer peer supportsone-to-one peer supports, which
is, honestly, some of myfavorite work that I do through
the page.
Um, it's just connecting withpeople on a one-to-one level.
Ellecia (45:35):
Yeah, yeah, I love that .
That's amazing.
I have one more question foryou, and this one does not go on
the regular um uh episode, butis for my Patreon supporters.
It's called uh, just the tip Uh, and it's um.
What is uh your favorite orbest sex tip?
Amazing.
(46:06):
Thank you so much for coming onand talking to me.
Annie (46:10):
It was my pleasure.
Thank you for having me comingon and talking to me.
Ellecia (46:14):
It was my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Okay, that was Annie, undonewith her.
Just the Tip for my Patreonlovers and friends with benefits
If you didn't get to hear thattip, go to patreoncom slash, not
monogamous and get signed up soyou can get the juicy bits If
you want to follow Annie on hersocial media or her Patreon
(46:35):
links in the show notes.
Bye.
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