August 14, 2025 • 26 mins
Klutch takes us behind the scenes of his transformation from skeptical observer to passionate NFT collector, sharing the pivotal moments that shaped his Web3 journey. As an accomplished Web2 founder with over $500 million in retail sales and one million satisfied customers, Klutch brings a unique business perspective to digital collecting.
The conversation reveals how a profound life lesson from his father's final days fundamentally changed his approach to challenges. "Promise me you're going to finish school," his father asked, a simple request that flipped a switch in Klutch's mind and transformed him from a struggling student to an achiever overnight. This transformative experience taught him the power of commitment and focus—principles he now applies to his collecting strategy.
Klutch articulates why he believes digital art will become "the number one collectible in the world," highlighting the frictionless nature of blockchain-based trading compared to traditional collectibles. "You want to buy a car, you're probably buying a car in your local region," he explains, contrasting this with the global reach of NFT markets. This worldwide connectivity not only facilitates commerce but fosters human connection across borders, leading to his observation that "we're all so much more alike than we are different."
Most revealing is Klutch's evolution from quick flips to strategic collecting. "Less degen behavior and more of a long-term view," he advocates, describing his transformation from chasing quick profits to dollar cost averaging into artists whose work and values resonate with him. This maturation mirrors the broader evolution occurring within the NFT space as it moves from speculation toward sustainable collecting practices.
Whether you're curious about NFTs, interested in collecting strategies, or simply enjoy stories of personal growth, this conversation offers valuable insights into how digital ownership is reshaping our relationship with art and commerce. Subscribe to hear more conversations with collectors and creators who are building the future of digital culture.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Who is this?
Who is this guy?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
NorCal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy NorCal guy.
Norcal and Chill Podcast soit's chill time.
Norcal and Chill Podcast whatthe fuck, what the chill.
Norcal and Chill Podcast soit's chill.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Episode of NorCal and Shill the vault.
Today we have Clutch.
Clutch is an experienced Web2founder with over 1 million
satisfied customers and over 500million worth of retail sales
(00:49):
under his belt.
Clutch currently considershimself to be a dollar cost
averaging investor in NFTs andhas been collecting since the
summer of 2021.
Clutch is a co-host of NorCaland Clutch podcast and a member
of Tungsten Dao.
Everyone, please welcome Clutch.
(01:10):
Hey Clutch, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you doing today?
Good Thanks for having me.
How are you Good?
I'm so glad we could make thiswork.
This is actually kind of fun,because we've never done an
interview like this.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, for sure, am I the first selector gonna.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
That's gonna be on norcal and yeah, you're the
first collector besides myinterview.
So yeah, you are the first onebesides me oh, very nice.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
So you're gonna interview yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
That's cool we'll figure it out.
We'll figure it out, okay, thatshould be interesting.
That would be fun playingdevil's advocate with myself.
What were your first thoughtswhen you heard about nfts?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
okay, this is easy.
I thought it was so dumb, like,oh, my god, we're buying jpegs
copy paste, bro.
And then you know what happened.
I was like, wait a second, isthis 2013?
Bitcoin again?
And am I just being dumb andmissing the opportunity of a
(02:21):
lifetime?
And I was like, quite possibly,so yeah.
I very quickly changed my mindand I was like I should be a
little more open-minded andexplore this for sure.
So, yeah, those are my firstthoughts.
But when I first did look at it, like I vowed I wasn't going to
do anything for like six months.
I was just going to watch andlearn.
Yeah, yeah, turns out I shouldhave just bought a bunch of shit
(02:44):
, but I didn't.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Right, right, whoops.
If you could live or moveanywhere, where would you live
and why?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Oh, that's a tough one, you know.
I really love where I live.
I live near Phoenix, arizona,and it's a beautiful place.
I grew up in Wisconsin, whichwas, you know, cold Six months
of crap weather and it's abeautiful place.
I grew up in Wisconsin, whichwas, you know, cold yeah, six
months of crap weather, no sun.
You can leave your house.
It's dark.
Come home it's dark, like I didthat my whole life, and living
(03:21):
here is like totally differentBlue skies 95% of the days.
It's just beautiful, theweather is great.
The only other thing I would dois for us our summers are like
everybody else's winter right.
So I would want a place where Icould get out of here in the
summer and growing up, I alwayswould go like camping with my
dad and we had a place on a lakethat my grandparents owned and
(03:42):
I love that.
And now that I have kids, likeI want to have that experience
with my kids where I go fishingwith them kind of out in the
wilderness, can shoot somepellet guns or something like.
I would stay living where I am,but I would find that summer
home for, to get away to andhave a totally different
experience with the kids foryeah, no, I like that a lot.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
That's a great idea, like getting the kids out in
nature just enjoying it.
A lake is like perfect for thatyeah it's so nice.
What's the best piece of adviceyou've been given?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
oh tough.
Okay, I always come back to onemoment in my life that like I
feel like changed my path and itwas actually when I was in
college and my dad hadpancreatic cancer and he was you
know, he fought, but it'spretty much like a death
sentence, right.
So like about two weeks beforehe passed, he knew I was having
(04:33):
trouble in school.
I partied, I partied hard, likethis is like the culture in
Wisconsin, right, like drinkingand driving is cool there.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
You know Like it's pretty bad.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I think it might have changed a little bit since 20
years ago, but like that's howit was right.
Like people would be like I'man excellent driver, who's the
ddd?
yeah like, looking back, it waspretty crazy, right, but that
was the culture.
So like, yeah, I got to collegeand I remember like in high
school everything was easy.
I just was I and I was prettysmart and I didn't have to work
(05:08):
that hard and I got great grades.
Then you get there and like allyour competition is like now
it's like way up another notch.
It's not like the dumb ass youwent to high school with anymore
, who was like, you know,doesn't want to work hard for
anything in life, right?
So the competition at ahigh-end university is a totally
different level.
And I partied like crazy and Iwas on the verge of getting
(05:30):
kicked out left and right, leftand right.
And two weeks before my daddied, it was like the last thing
, the last time he could eventalk.
And he said to me just promiseme, you're going to work through
and finish school, right.
And I was like, oh my God, thisis my dad's dying wish for me.
Like, ok, yes, it's time tobuckle down.
And you know it was like abelieve in yourself and work
(05:53):
hard moment, like you got this.
If you just you can do this,but you can't.
You know you got to take itseriously from now on and I did.
It was like a switch flipped inmy brain and I was like, yes,
I'm going to do that.
So I got great grades from thenon.
It was like I went from likebarely staying in to like 3.8,
(06:15):
like instantly, and it justshowed me like man, I could have
done this the whole time if Ijust had the motivation right,
but I squandered thoseopportunities.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, I feel you on that one.
Did you collect art or anythingelse before crypto art?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yes, I definitely collected art.
My wife and I would travel alot, and then pre-kids.
It was like so easy to travel,right, and you go, and you would
go to Italy and Spain andGreece and we would just go and
then you'd find a gallery in thelocal town you're visiting
Maybe it's like Positano, italy,or something and we'd just be
(06:53):
like, hey, yeah, we'll buy this.
Ship it back to the States forme, please.
So I definitely did that.
I got into collecting prettyhard during COVID because I was
bored, as we all were, I think.
And I started collecting bourbonbecause one of my business
partners did so.
That was kind of a fun littlehobby.
And my nephew plays baseball.
He's in the minor leagues rightnow.
(07:14):
So when he got drafted Istarted collecting his baseball
cards again, and I haven'tcollected baseball cards since I
was a kid, so it wasinteresting to get back in it
and see how much more likedeveloped it was now and like,
yeah, it's totally different.
Like you used to go to the cardshops and you have the beckets
and all this stuff.
Now it's all on ebay right.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So okay, the whole marketplace is on ebay these
days.
Oh, I had no idea.
I just remember going andbuying the beckets and being
like oh, how much did it go upthis month or down, or dang, I
should have sold it, orsomething.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Right, you get that card that goes from like 25
cents to 30 cents.
As a kid, you're like heck yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Right.
What are the best things aboutWeb3 today and what are your
concerns as it expands?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I've thought about this one.
The best thing to me is thefreedom to transact.
Now, the reason I'm saying thatis because I don't know if you
saw it, but Intrepid had a tweetthread about his life and how
his life went through COVID, andit was crazy.
(08:22):
This guy was on a boat with hisfamily and COVID hit and
they're from Australia, right,so he could not like get back
home because they wouldn't lethim in, right, and, yeah, other
countries wouldn't let him ineither.
So him and his wife are on aboat and like with their kids
(08:42):
they have like three young kidslike for years.
It's like, oh my god, like wow,looking back, we really
overreacted quite a bit.
And then he was you got to readthis, I'll share it with you
but like it is so crazy becauseit's like then, like all sudden,
his credit cards would expireand he couldn't like re-up them
(09:03):
because they'd want like someverification and he had to be
like I don't know.
He couldn't like re-up thembecause they'd want like some
verification and he had to belike I don't know he couldn't
get like internet access or hehad to go into like a bank to do
it and he's like I can't evenget on shore, how can I go to a
bank, right?
And so he was like, oh my gosh,like it's so crazy, how do you
survive when you don't haveaccess to your money?
Right?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
that's insane, so yeah that one hit home.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I think that was a really powerful tweet thread.
My concerns are obviouslyregulation in the future and
security.
I mean, the systems are stillvery hard to use and not very
intuitive, and somebody gettinghacked every other day still
most of the time an ape right,yeah, yeah, yeah.
(09:43):
They deserve that, though, man.
They do that to themselves theydeserve that, though, man.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
They do that to themselves.
This is true.
It's true.
It's them trying to make atrade or grab that next hot, oh
yeah, pfp.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
And like, oops, it's all gone, yeah no, they're
always trying to make the trade,to avoid the royalties.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Right, it's like whoops there, Whoops, there goes
my ape Right and yeah.
Another topic when do you seedigital art in five years and do
you have any concerns?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Okay, I see it being huge.
Honestly, like I've thoughtabout this a lot and I think
it's going to become the numberone collectible in the world.
Now, there are a lot ofcollectibles in the world.
There is something for everyone, right?
There's watches, there's cars,there's baseball cards, there's
(10:39):
bourbon, there's, obviously,traditional art I mean, it could
go on and on and the thing is,a lot of those things are like,
trading them is not that easy,right, it requires a lot of
middlemen and stuff.
That's what I love about thistechnology, like it's kind of
like makes peer to peer tradinglike really simple, right, right
(11:01):
.
And like worldwide, like youwant to buy a car, you're
probably buying a car in yourlike local region, sure, yeah,
you're not like going on eBaymotors and buying a car in your
like local region, for sure.
Yeah, you're not like going onebay motors and buying a car in
india or something.
If you live here in the states,right, it's impossible, or the
shipping would cost you morethan the car.
Yeah, but this is like, wow,worldwide we can trade.
(11:21):
Like that is so cool.
To me, that is very cool.
So, yeah, I think it's going tobe huge.
Obviously, I'm betting a lot ofmy time and resources on it and
I'm excited to see where we'regoing to go.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
No, I agree with you.
I mean just the interactionsalone.
Like I've never talked to somany people around the world
since I got into crypto art.
It's like I mean the time zonescan be a little awkward, but
definitely like you talk tosomeone in Turkey or Russia or
UK, australia, like Korea, japan.
It's just crazy.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And it's great, like you realize, like we're all so
much more alike than we aredifferent, like, so, like, while
our leaders may have their warsand whatever, like you know, we
can all just get along too, youknow, it's so true.
It's sad that it comes down tothat a lot of times.
But when you actually do meetthese people and you realize
like they're just like me, theyhave the same fears, the same
(12:16):
concerns, they're just trying toprovide for their family, like
we are definitely all more alike, For sure.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I wholeheartedly believe in that one.
What makes you decide to buy apiece?
Do you like watch the artistfor a while, get to know them?
Or is it like, uh, I'm buyingit right now pure FOMO man like
no, just kidding.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Uh, sometimes right, sometimes yeah, but okay, most
of the time I'm seeing it sharedon twitter or something right
by, by friends in the spaceright, other artists, other
collectors, and that's howyou're getting introduced to new
artists a lot of times.
And then you know if usuallyyou see one piece that's shared
(12:58):
and then you, if it catches youreye, you dive in and I'll go to
their twitter profile.
I look to see if they have alink tree, start trying to dive
into their foundation or superrare or whatever they got on
there.
And most of the time I don'tbuy from an artist right away
Like almost never, to be honest.
Like I'm like okay, I want tofollow them for sure, and then
(13:21):
I'll start seeing how they'retweeting, what they're tweeting
about, what their interests are.
So I try to like get their vibeinitially a little bit right
and then just see what theirwork is and let it soak in a
little bit right.
Some works, definitely, it'slike boom, I need that, like I
love it.
(13:42):
Other works, you're like that'sreally good, but do I want to
invest in that when they're?
You know there's an infiniteamount of jpegs out there.
So like you gotta pick andchoose right where you're going
to allocate your resources.
So most of the time I'm doingthe second, I'm taking my time
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Makes sense.
What is your favorite moviequote?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
okay, I love this question, by the way, because,
like watching movies is one ofmy favorite hobbies.
I have a 180-inch 4K DolbyAtmos theater in my house, like
this is like my thing, like I'mold guy now, so like I don't go
out clubbing anymore right.
Like I go watch Disney movieswith my kids and then when they
(14:26):
go to bed I'll go watch oldermovies with my wife, or
something right?
So I do like this question andI thought about it quite a bit.
I couldn't even narrow it downto one.
I have like three answers yeahlet's do it All three, okay.
My first one was from thePrincess Bride, and it was.
My name is El Nino Montoya.
You killed my father, prepareto die Now.
(14:49):
The reason I love this one isbecause in the movie he keeps
saying it over and over and overright, and he's like just keeps
going, pushing forward.
It's like he's showing thathe's like determined to
accomplish his mission, nomatter what he's gonna get it
done.
So I like that symbolism.
The second one I came up withwas from a one of my favorite
movies when I was gosh.
(15:11):
I don't remember when I maybewhen I was a teenager break
heart yeah so I loved this movie.
I watched it like a hundredtimes at least.
Right, so he's got the I fightand you may die, run and you
live at least a while and dyingin your beds many years from now
.
Would you be willing to tradeall the days from this day to
(15:32):
that one for one chance, justone chance, to come back here
and tell our enemies that theymay take our lives but they'll
never take our freedom, likethat's, like you think about
that moment in the movie.
There's like so much powerthere, like you have a choice.
You can fight through thisthing to succeed, or you can
give up and go home and loseyour freedoms.
(15:55):
And that choice hits you inlife many times.
There are many times you canfight through something or you
can give up, and it's happenedto me a lot in recent years and
with my business, for example,and I always choose to fight.
So I like that quote because Ilike the symbolism and, yeah, I
(16:17):
really just love it.
I love that.
The last one would be the wholerap scene at the end of 8 Mile.
I won't do that one, but I loveit.
Too bad.
I could just like sometimesI'll just go to YouTube just to
watch it.
It's so good, you know, I justlove it.
It's like such a jam too, Likeyou feel.
Oh, it just pumps you up Like,yeah, get them rabbit.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Too bad.
It's over for a performance.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Maybe next time.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Maybe in NFT NYC Karaoke night or something.
There you go.
What would you like to see moreof in the crypto art space?
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Okay, less degen behavior and more of a long-term
view.
That is the single biggest one.
Like, all the degens flippingare just, you know, obviously
hoping for a quick buck, right.
That's why we all got inpractically Almost everybody I
know got in for sure, and therewere pockets of time where you
could do that and be successfulfor sure.
(17:17):
But most of the time it's notthat easy.
It's like really challenging,like, oh, I'm going to flip this
for 40 bucks, like okay, andthen your time investment and
the emotional energy you got toput into it is like a lot right.
Like you're like oh, am I up,am I down?
Oh my God, oh crap, I lost 40bucks.
Like this sucks, right, like,and you get too emotionally
(17:38):
attached to these decisions.
So I was definitely in thatperson at first, right, but over
time my collecting behaviorchanged and I realized, well,
that's not really what I want tobe here for.
I actually don't need the 40bucks like.
I'm here to like buildsomething for the long term and
I believe in this space andtechnology for the long term.
So that's why I shipped it andbecame a dollar cost averaging
(18:00):
investor is what I considermyself into nfts.
So, yeah, less dgen behaviorand more of a long-term view, I
think would be better for.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
What is the best thing and the silliest thing?
You've spent money on.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Okay, this one's so easy, and this is a pro tip for
anybody out there who can dothis?
Best thing I ever spent money onwas my wife.
Okay, get this.
When we met she worked multiplejobs.
She was one of the hardestworking people I've ever met.
She worked customer serviceduring the day and then she
(18:37):
worked at a bar at night.
That's how I met her.
She was the bartender and sheworked a lot like and it was
kind of getting to a point I waslike, well, you know, if we're
gonna be together like long term, you don't actually have to do
that anymore.
Like I make enough money forboth of us and I knew she was
really into cooking, right likeI loved it like food network on
all the time at my house.
Well, pre-kids now it's mostlydisney, but she still loves food
(19:00):
network, right.
So I was like you want to go toculinary school.
And she's like, yeah.
And I was like, oh, this isgoing to be the best investment
of my lifetime because I'm goingto get, like chef, quality food
at home forever.
So, yeah, that's my bestinvestment ever Send your spouse
to culinary school Pro tip.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
What was the silliest Okay, silliest man that one's
tough.
The silliest thing I ever spendmoney on is stuff I don't use.
Probably right, like I'llalways go buy the new xbox or
ps5 and then I don't play it,like I don't have time for that,
but I gotta have it, like Idon't know.
So I go buy it and it sitsthere so yeah, that's the
(19:40):
silliest.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
That's fair.
That's fair.
That's a good one, I agree.
I agree.
If you could commission a pieceand have two artists collab on
it, which two artists would itbe?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
this is so hard like there are just an infinite
number of combinations.
It's too hard, like, but yougot to think of artists that
will fit together right like,like, for example, you could and
there's easy ones right likeyou could do grant you in the
next copy and it would be coolto see x try to glitch up a
(20:16):
grant piece.
Yeah, that'd be cool, like itwould be cool to see x try to
glitch up a warhol which wouldyou know?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
kind of a similar cool.
That'd be a cool combo similarmix.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
But there's one I really like that I've thought of
and it's because I've seenruben do a combo.
So I think kath samard andjenny passanen would be really
cool, because kath has alwaysbeen very open to ai.
She's definitely pushed me whenI was super anti, like a year
(20:51):
ago, and she helped me open upmy own mind to be more accepting
of it.
And then I saw jenny did acollab with ruben which was
actually really good.
So I feel like those two wouldmake a killer collab and I am
going to try to get them to dothat for click.
I'm'm going to keep, you know,poking up and being like come on
(21:15):
, please.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I like it.
I like it, I can't.
Yeah, that's going to be great.
That'd be great for whoever'smonth that ends up.
It We'll see.
Hopefully it happens.
What is one interesting factabout you that people might not
be aware of?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Okay interesting fact about you that people might not
be aware of.
Okay, so one interesting factis I originally wanted to do
exactly what grant is doing.
I went to the same university.
I had the intentions of goingto the same exact medical school
.
I actually went to that medicalschool in high school for like
after school extra things andthey had like what they called
mini medical school.
I actually went to that medicalschool in high school for like
after school extra things andthey had like what they called
mini medical school.
(21:54):
I wanted to be a doctor myentire life, yeah, like so, yeah
, that's the one interestingthing.
I really wanted to go down thatpath.
Now I'm really glad I did that.
It's funny how you think youwant something super bad in life
and then later on you realize,right, it's probably good that
it didn't happen what is yourfavorite way to connect with new
(22:18):
people in this space?
meeting in real life.
I mean, obviously we alltwittered right now and all that
.
But man, when we go to like artbasel or nft nyc and you get to
meet these people, haveconversations with them, like
you feel like your friendshipgoes up another level.
It totally does it totally does.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I mean, I remember like the first events that I
went to and I was just like wow,like I actually feel like I
made a better connection andjust, I don't know it's there's
something about that.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
In person yeah, the real hug versus the virtual
emoji hug like the real hug'sbetter, sure.
So yeah, I would say, meetingin real life is my favorite, and
just hanging out and talkingabout life.
That's not always about nfts,right, like we're all here
grinding on nfts all time.
But when you get in thatatmosphere you tend to have
(23:11):
other conversations.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah, I really enjoyed.
One that stands out was goingto Miami and getting a spot and
sharing it with you.
It was so nice and chill and wecould just like chill and chat
about whatever.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, when you came home I didn't go to that one
event.
And then you came back to theAirbnb later and then we just
had wine and pizza and whiskeyand we just hung out on the
couch and watched TV.
Like that was awesome.
That was a good time it waslike we really became, like you
know, really really greatfriends.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I feel like in that moment, yeah, I'm looking
forward to that again in NewYork.
Like it was awesome.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Well Ding, tell me about.
Is there any projects you'reworking?
On that you'd like to talkabout.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, I think you know of one.
Have you ever heard of ClickCreate?
I heard about it before.
Okay, let's do that one.
Everybody go check us out,clickcreateio.
And here's what I would likeyou all to know about us.
For example, we are investingheavily into our artists.
We are making these greatartist spotlight videos and I
(24:18):
did a Twitter poll the other dayand I found out most people
don't even know we're doing themyet.
So we're going to have to do abetter job of showing people
that we're doing them andhopefully over time, they'll
realize we're doing them.
But we're doing really greatthings.
I'm excited about what we'rebuilding.
We're in a little bit of a bearright now Everybody knows it,
(24:38):
but like long term, superbullish on what we're doing,
because you know what we'redoing, what's right.
We're just putting out greatart.
We're promoting artists.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
We're trying to take care of our collectors, so I'm
super excited about it.
Yeah, it's an amazing projectwhich, funny enough, kind of
spawned from miami it did, yeahsure did.
Yeah, I love it.
I can't wait for this projectto just grow.
We're just starting month twoand it's just getting better and
better.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I love it yeah, and like the lineup is to come like
transient just announced andeverybody was seen pretty
excited about it.
And then we got coldies monthand we know those artists
already and those are bangers.
So it's like wow.
And we got Dave Krugman, thenwe got Grant Yoon.
Like it's just going to justboom, boom, boom.
You know it's funny, I thinklike we're going to get to the
(25:27):
end of the year and it'll beover and we're like wow, that
happened pretty fast.
But when you're in the middleof it it's like it feels like
we're definitely grinding, likethis is way more work than I
thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I know I'm always like dang, what do I need?
Oh yeah, I need to do this.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I need to do this dude.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Thanks again.
I enjoyed this.
It was really fun and I can'twait.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I had fun too.
Man can't wait to see you inNew York.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I know only a couple weeks away more pizza, more wine
, more whiskey.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I'm ready, I'll see you there.
I love.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It sounds good.
Bye this guy.
Who is this guy who?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
is this guy NorCal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy,
norcal guy, norcal guy, norcalguy, norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal and chill Podcast Show.
It's chill time NorCal andchill Podcast.
What the?
What the Chill?
Norcal and chill Podcast Show.
It's chill time.
(26:30):
Norcal and chill Podcast.
What the?
What the.
Who is this?
Who is this guy?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
NorCal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy NorCal guy.
Norcal and Chill Podcast soit's chill time.
Norcal and Chill Podcast whatthe fuck, what the chill.
Norcal and Chill Podcast soit's chill.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Episode of NorCal and Shill the vault.
Today we have Clutch.
Clutch is an experienced Web2founder with over 1 million
satisfied customers and over 500million worth of retail sales
(00:49):
under his belt.
Clutch currently considershimself to be a dollar cost
averaging investor in NFTs andhas been collecting since the
summer of 2021.
Clutch is a co-host of NorCaland Clutch podcast and a member
of Tungsten Dao.
Everyone, please welcome Clutch.
(01:10):
Hey Clutch, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you doing today?
Good Thanks for having me.
How are you Good?
I'm so glad we could make thiswork.
This is actually kind of fun,because we've never done an
interview like this.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, for sure, am I the first selector gonna.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
That's gonna be on norcal and yeah, you're the
first collector besides myinterview.
So yeah, you are the first onebesides me oh, very nice.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
So you're gonna interview yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
That's cool we'll figure it out.
We'll figure it out, okay, thatshould be interesting.
That would be fun playingdevil's advocate with myself.
What were your first thoughtswhen you heard about nfts?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
okay, this is easy.
I thought it was so dumb, like,oh, my god, we're buying jpegs
copy paste, bro.
And then you know what happened.
I was like, wait a second, isthis 2013?
Bitcoin again?
And am I just being dumb andmissing the opportunity of a
(02:21):
lifetime?
And I was like, quite possibly,so yeah.
I very quickly changed my mindand I was like I should be a
little more open-minded andexplore this for sure.
So, yeah, those are my firstthoughts.
But when I first did look at it, like I vowed I wasn't going to
do anything for like six months.
I was just going to watch andlearn.
Yeah, yeah, turns out I shouldhave just bought a bunch of shit
(02:44):
, but I didn't.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Right, right, whoops.
If you could live or moveanywhere, where would you live
and why?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Oh, that's a tough one, you know.
I really love where I live.
I live near Phoenix, arizona,and it's a beautiful place.
I grew up in Wisconsin, whichwas, you know, cold Six months
of crap weather and it's abeautiful place.
I grew up in Wisconsin, whichwas, you know, cold yeah, six
months of crap weather, no sun.
You can leave your house.
It's dark.
Come home it's dark, like I didthat my whole life, and living
(03:21):
here is like totally differentBlue skies 95% of the days.
It's just beautiful, theweather is great.
The only other thing I would dois for us our summers are like
everybody else's winter right.
So I would want a place where Icould get out of here in the
summer and growing up, I alwayswould go like camping with my
dad and we had a place on a lakethat my grandparents owned and
(03:42):
I love that.
And now that I have kids, likeI want to have that experience
with my kids where I go fishingwith them kind of out in the
wilderness, can shoot somepellet guns or something like.
I would stay living where I am,but I would find that summer
home for, to get away to andhave a totally different
experience with the kids foryeah, no, I like that a lot.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
That's a great idea, like getting the kids out in
nature just enjoying it.
A lake is like perfect for thatyeah it's so nice.
What's the best piece of adviceyou've been given?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
oh tough.
Okay, I always come back to onemoment in my life that like I
feel like changed my path and itwas actually when I was in
college and my dad hadpancreatic cancer and he was you
know, he fought, but it'spretty much like a death
sentence, right.
So like about two weeks beforehe passed, he knew I was having
(04:33):
trouble in school.
I partied, I partied hard, likethis is like the culture in
Wisconsin, right, like drinkingand driving is cool there.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
You know Like it's pretty bad.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I think it might have changed a little bit since 20
years ago, but like that's howit was right.
Like people would be like I'man excellent driver, who's the
ddd?
yeah like, looking back, it waspretty crazy, right, but that
was the culture.
So like, yeah, I got to collegeand I remember like in high
school everything was easy.
I just was I and I was prettysmart and I didn't have to work
(05:08):
that hard and I got great grades.
Then you get there and like allyour competition is like now
it's like way up another notch.
It's not like the dumb ass youwent to high school with anymore
, who was like, you know,doesn't want to work hard for
anything in life, right?
So the competition at ahigh-end university is a totally
different level.
And I partied like crazy and Iwas on the verge of getting
(05:30):
kicked out left and right, leftand right.
And two weeks before my daddied, it was like the last thing
, the last time he could eventalk.
And he said to me just promiseme, you're going to work through
and finish school, right.
And I was like, oh my God, thisis my dad's dying wish for me.
Like, ok, yes, it's time tobuckle down.
And you know it was like abelieve in yourself and work
(05:53):
hard moment, like you got this.
If you just you can do this,but you can't.
You know you got to take itseriously from now on and I did.
It was like a switch flipped inmy brain and I was like, yes,
I'm going to do that.
So I got great grades from thenon.
It was like I went from likebarely staying in to like 3.8,
(06:15):
like instantly, and it justshowed me like man, I could have
done this the whole time if Ijust had the motivation right,
but I squandered thoseopportunities.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, I feel you on that one.
Did you collect art or anythingelse before crypto art?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yes, I definitely collected art.
My wife and I would travel alot, and then pre-kids.
It was like so easy to travel,right, and you go, and you would
go to Italy and Spain andGreece and we would just go and
then you'd find a gallery in thelocal town you're visiting
Maybe it's like Positano, italy,or something and we'd just be
(06:53):
like, hey, yeah, we'll buy this.
Ship it back to the States forme, please.
So I definitely did that.
I got into collecting prettyhard during COVID because I was
bored, as we all were, I think.
And I started collecting bourbonbecause one of my business
partners did so.
That was kind of a fun littlehobby.
And my nephew plays baseball.
He's in the minor leagues rightnow.
(07:14):
So when he got drafted Istarted collecting his baseball
cards again, and I haven'tcollected baseball cards since I
was a kid, so it wasinteresting to get back in it
and see how much more likedeveloped it was now and like,
yeah, it's totally different.
Like you used to go to the cardshops and you have the beckets
and all this stuff.
Now it's all on ebay right.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So okay, the whole marketplace is on ebay these
days.
Oh, I had no idea.
I just remember going andbuying the beckets and being
like oh, how much did it go upthis month or down, or dang, I
should have sold it, orsomething.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Right, you get that card that goes from like 25
cents to 30 cents.
As a kid, you're like heck yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Right.
What are the best things aboutWeb3 today and what are your
concerns as it expands?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I've thought about this one.
The best thing to me is thefreedom to transact.
Now, the reason I'm saying thatis because I don't know if you
saw it, but Intrepid had a tweetthread about his life and how
his life went through COVID, andit was crazy.
(08:22):
This guy was on a boat with hisfamily and COVID hit and
they're from Australia, right,so he could not like get back
home because they wouldn't lethim in, right, and, yeah, other
countries wouldn't let him ineither.
So him and his wife are on aboat and like with their kids
(08:42):
they have like three young kidslike for years.
It's like, oh my god, like wow,looking back, we really
overreacted quite a bit.
And then he was you got to readthis, I'll share it with you
but like it is so crazy becauseit's like then, like all sudden,
his credit cards would expireand he couldn't like re-up them
(09:03):
because they'd want like someverification and he had to be
like I don't know.
He couldn't like re-up thembecause they'd want like some
verification and he had to belike I don't know he couldn't
get like internet access or hehad to go into like a bank to do
it and he's like I can't evenget on shore, how can I go to a
bank, right?
And so he was like, oh my gosh,like it's so crazy, how do you
survive when you don't haveaccess to your money?
Right?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
that's insane, so yeah that one hit home.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I think that was a really powerful tweet thread.
My concerns are obviouslyregulation in the future and
security.
I mean, the systems are stillvery hard to use and not very
intuitive, and somebody gettinghacked every other day still
most of the time an ape right,yeah, yeah, yeah.
(09:43):
They deserve that, though, man.
They do that to themselves theydeserve that, though, man.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
They do that to themselves.
This is true.
It's true.
It's them trying to make atrade or grab that next hot, oh
yeah, pfp.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
And like, oops, it's all gone, yeah no, they're
always trying to make the trade,to avoid the royalties.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Right, it's like whoops there, Whoops, there goes
my ape Right and yeah.
Another topic when do you seedigital art in five years and do
you have any concerns?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Okay, I see it being huge.
Honestly, like I've thoughtabout this a lot and I think
it's going to become the numberone collectible in the world.
Now, there are a lot ofcollectibles in the world.
There is something for everyone, right?
There's watches, there's cars,there's baseball cards, there's
(10:39):
bourbon, there's, obviously,traditional art I mean, it could
go on and on and the thing is,a lot of those things are like,
trading them is not that easy,right, it requires a lot of
middlemen and stuff.
That's what I love about thistechnology, like it's kind of
like makes peer to peer tradinglike really simple, right, right
(11:01):
.
And like worldwide, like youwant to buy a car, you're
probably buying a car in yourlike local region, sure, yeah,
you're not like going on eBaymotors and buying a car in your
like local region, for sure.
Yeah, you're not like going onebay motors and buying a car in
india or something.
If you live here in the states,right, it's impossible, or the
shipping would cost you morethan the car.
Yeah, but this is like, wow,worldwide we can trade.
(11:21):
Like that is so cool.
To me, that is very cool.
So, yeah, I think it's going tobe huge.
Obviously, I'm betting a lot ofmy time and resources on it and
I'm excited to see where we'regoing to go.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
No, I agree with you.
I mean just the interactionsalone.
Like I've never talked to somany people around the world
since I got into crypto art.
It's like I mean the time zonescan be a little awkward, but
definitely like you talk tosomeone in Turkey or Russia or
UK, australia, like Korea, japan.
It's just crazy.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And it's great, like you realize, like we're all so
much more alike than we aredifferent, like, so, like, while
our leaders may have their warsand whatever, like you know, we
can all just get along too, youknow, it's so true.
It's sad that it comes down tothat a lot of times.
But when you actually do meetthese people and you realize
like they're just like me, theyhave the same fears, the same
(12:16):
concerns, they're just trying toprovide for their family, like
we are definitely all more alike, For sure.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I wholeheartedly believe in that one.
What makes you decide to buy apiece?
Do you like watch the artistfor a while, get to know them?
Or is it like, uh, I'm buyingit right now pure FOMO man like
no, just kidding.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Uh, sometimes right, sometimes yeah, but okay, most
of the time I'm seeing it sharedon twitter or something right
by, by friends in the spaceright, other artists, other
collectors, and that's howyou're getting introduced to new
artists a lot of times.
And then you know if usuallyyou see one piece that's shared
(12:58):
and then you, if it catches youreye, you dive in and I'll go to
their twitter profile.
I look to see if they have alink tree, start trying to dive
into their foundation or superrare or whatever they got on
there.
And most of the time I don'tbuy from an artist right away
Like almost never, to be honest.
Like I'm like okay, I want tofollow them for sure, and then
(13:21):
I'll start seeing how they'retweeting, what they're tweeting
about, what their interests are.
So I try to like get their vibeinitially a little bit right
and then just see what theirwork is and let it soak in a
little bit right.
Some works, definitely, it'slike boom, I need that, like I
love it.
(13:42):
Other works, you're like that'sreally good, but do I want to
invest in that when they're?
You know there's an infiniteamount of jpegs out there.
So like you gotta pick andchoose right where you're going
to allocate your resources.
So most of the time I'm doingthe second, I'm taking my time
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Makes sense.
What is your favorite moviequote?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
okay, I love this question, by the way, because,
like watching movies is one ofmy favorite hobbies.
I have a 180-inch 4K DolbyAtmos theater in my house, like
this is like my thing, like I'mold guy now, so like I don't go
out clubbing anymore right.
Like I go watch Disney movieswith my kids and then when they
(14:26):
go to bed I'll go watch oldermovies with my wife, or
something right?
So I do like this question andI thought about it quite a bit.
I couldn't even narrow it downto one.
I have like three answers yeahlet's do it All three, okay.
My first one was from thePrincess Bride, and it was.
My name is El Nino Montoya.
You killed my father, prepareto die Now.
(14:49):
The reason I love this one isbecause in the movie he keeps
saying it over and over and overright, and he's like just keeps
going, pushing forward.
It's like he's showing thathe's like determined to
accomplish his mission, nomatter what he's gonna get it
done.
So I like that symbolism.
The second one I came up withwas from a one of my favorite
movies when I was gosh.
(15:11):
I don't remember when I maybewhen I was a teenager break
heart yeah so I loved this movie.
I watched it like a hundredtimes at least.
Right, so he's got the I fightand you may die, run and you
live at least a while and dyingin your beds many years from now
.
Would you be willing to tradeall the days from this day to
(15:32):
that one for one chance, justone chance, to come back here
and tell our enemies that theymay take our lives but they'll
never take our freedom, likethat's, like you think about
that moment in the movie.
There's like so much powerthere, like you have a choice.
You can fight through thisthing to succeed, or you can
give up and go home and loseyour freedoms.
(15:55):
And that choice hits you inlife many times.
There are many times you canfight through something or you
can give up, and it's happenedto me a lot in recent years and
with my business, for example,and I always choose to fight.
So I like that quote because Ilike the symbolism and, yeah, I
(16:17):
really just love it.
I love that.
The last one would be the wholerap scene at the end of 8 Mile.
I won't do that one, but I loveit.
Too bad.
I could just like sometimesI'll just go to YouTube just to
watch it.
It's so good, you know, I justlove it.
It's like such a jam too, Likeyou feel.
Oh, it just pumps you up Like,yeah, get them rabbit.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Too bad.
It's over for a performance.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Maybe next time.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Maybe in NFT NYC Karaoke night or something.
There you go.
What would you like to see moreof in the crypto art space?
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Okay, less degen behavior and more of a long-term
view.
That is the single biggest one.
Like, all the degens flippingare just, you know, obviously
hoping for a quick buck, right.
That's why we all got inpractically Almost everybody I
know got in for sure, and therewere pockets of time where you
could do that and be successfulfor sure.
(17:17):
But most of the time it's notthat easy.
It's like really challenging,like, oh, I'm going to flip this
for 40 bucks, like okay, andthen your time investment and
the emotional energy you got toput into it is like a lot right.
Like you're like oh, am I up,am I down?
Oh my God, oh crap, I lost 40bucks.
Like this sucks, right, like,and you get too emotionally
(17:38):
attached to these decisions.
So I was definitely in thatperson at first, right, but over
time my collecting behaviorchanged and I realized, well,
that's not really what I want tobe here for.
I actually don't need the 40bucks like.
I'm here to like buildsomething for the long term and
I believe in this space andtechnology for the long term.
So that's why I shipped it andbecame a dollar cost averaging
(18:00):
investor is what I considermyself into nfts.
So, yeah, less dgen behaviorand more of a long-term view, I
think would be better for.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
What is the best thing and the silliest thing?
You've spent money on.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Okay, this one's so easy, and this is a pro tip for
anybody out there who can dothis?
Best thing I ever spent money onwas my wife.
Okay, get this.
When we met she worked multiplejobs.
She was one of the hardestworking people I've ever met.
She worked customer serviceduring the day and then she
(18:37):
worked at a bar at night.
That's how I met her.
She was the bartender and sheworked a lot like and it was
kind of getting to a point I waslike, well, you know, if we're
gonna be together like long term, you don't actually have to do
that anymore.
Like I make enough money forboth of us and I knew she was
really into cooking, right likeI loved it like food network on
all the time at my house.
Well, pre-kids now it's mostlydisney, but she still loves food
(19:00):
network, right.
So I was like you want to go toculinary school.
And she's like, yeah.
And I was like, oh, this isgoing to be the best investment
of my lifetime because I'm goingto get, like chef, quality food
at home forever.
So, yeah, that's my bestinvestment ever Send your spouse
to culinary school Pro tip.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
What was the silliest Okay, silliest man that one's
tough.
The silliest thing I ever spendmoney on is stuff I don't use.
Probably right, like I'llalways go buy the new xbox or
ps5 and then I don't play it,like I don't have time for that,
but I gotta have it, like Idon't know.
So I go buy it and it sitsthere so yeah, that's the
(19:40):
silliest.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
That's fair.
That's fair.
That's a good one, I agree.
I agree.
If you could commission a pieceand have two artists collab on
it, which two artists would itbe?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
this is so hard like there are just an infinite
number of combinations.
It's too hard, like, but yougot to think of artists that
will fit together right like,like, for example, you could and
there's easy ones right likeyou could do grant you in the
next copy and it would be coolto see x try to glitch up a
(20:16):
grant piece.
Yeah, that'd be cool, like itwould be cool to see x try to
glitch up a warhol which wouldyou know?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
kind of a similar cool.
That'd be a cool combo similarmix.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
But there's one I really like that I've thought of
and it's because I've seenruben do a combo.
So I think kath samard andjenny passanen would be really
cool, because kath has alwaysbeen very open to ai.
She's definitely pushed me whenI was super anti, like a year
(20:51):
ago, and she helped me open upmy own mind to be more accepting
of it.
And then I saw jenny did acollab with ruben which was
actually really good.
So I feel like those two wouldmake a killer collab and I am
going to try to get them to dothat for click.
I'm'm going to keep, you know,poking up and being like come on
(21:15):
, please.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I like it.
I like it, I can't.
Yeah, that's going to be great.
That'd be great for whoever'smonth that ends up.
It We'll see.
Hopefully it happens.
What is one interesting factabout you that people might not
be aware of?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Okay interesting fact about you that people might not
be aware of.
Okay, so one interesting factis I originally wanted to do
exactly what grant is doing.
I went to the same university.
I had the intentions of goingto the same exact medical school
.
I actually went to that medicalschool in high school for like
after school extra things andthey had like what they called
mini medical school.
I actually went to that medicalschool in high school for like
after school extra things andthey had like what they called
mini medical school.
(21:54):
I wanted to be a doctor myentire life, yeah, like so, yeah
, that's the one interestingthing.
I really wanted to go down thatpath.
Now I'm really glad I did that.
It's funny how you think youwant something super bad in life
and then later on you realize,right, it's probably good that
it didn't happen what is yourfavorite way to connect with new
(22:18):
people in this space?
meeting in real life.
I mean, obviously we alltwittered right now and all that
.
But man, when we go to like artbasel or nft nyc and you get to
meet these people, haveconversations with them, like
you feel like your friendshipgoes up another level.
It totally does it totally does.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I mean, I remember like the first events that I
went to and I was just like wow,like I actually feel like I
made a better connection andjust, I don't know it's there's
something about that.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
In person yeah, the real hug versus the virtual
emoji hug like the real hug'sbetter, sure.
So yeah, I would say, meetingin real life is my favorite, and
just hanging out and talkingabout life.
That's not always about nfts,right, like we're all here
grinding on nfts all time.
But when you get in thatatmosphere you tend to have
(23:11):
other conversations.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah, I really enjoyed.
One that stands out was goingto Miami and getting a spot and
sharing it with you.
It was so nice and chill and wecould just like chill and chat
about whatever.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, when you came home I didn't go to that one
event.
And then you came back to theAirbnb later and then we just
had wine and pizza and whiskeyand we just hung out on the
couch and watched TV.
Like that was awesome.
That was a good time it waslike we really became, like you
know, really really greatfriends.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I feel like in that moment, yeah, I'm looking
forward to that again in NewYork.
Like it was awesome.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Well Ding, tell me about.
Is there any projects you'reworking?
On that you'd like to talkabout.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, I think you know of one.
Have you ever heard of ClickCreate?
I heard about it before.
Okay, let's do that one.
Everybody go check us out,clickcreateio.
And here's what I would likeyou all to know about us.
For example, we are investingheavily into our artists.
We are making these greatartist spotlight videos and I
(24:18):
did a Twitter poll the other dayand I found out most people
don't even know we're doing themyet.
So we're going to have to do abetter job of showing people
that we're doing them andhopefully over time, they'll
realize we're doing them.
But we're doing really greatthings.
I'm excited about what we'rebuilding.
We're in a little bit of a bearright now Everybody knows it,
(24:38):
but like long term, superbullish on what we're doing,
because you know what we'redoing, what's right.
We're just putting out greatart.
We're promoting artists.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
We're trying to take care of our collectors, so I'm
super excited about it.
Yeah, it's an amazing projectwhich, funny enough, kind of
spawned from miami it did, yeahsure did.
Yeah, I love it.
I can't wait for this projectto just grow.
We're just starting month twoand it's just getting better and
better.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I love it yeah, and like the lineup is to come like
transient just announced andeverybody was seen pretty
excited about it.
And then we got coldies monthand we know those artists
already and those are bangers.
So it's like wow.
And we got Dave Krugman, thenwe got Grant Yoon.
Like it's just going to justboom, boom, boom.
You know it's funny, I thinklike we're going to get to the
(25:27):
end of the year and it'll beover and we're like wow, that
happened pretty fast.
But when you're in the middleof it it's like it feels like
we're definitely grinding, likethis is way more work than I
thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I know I'm always like dang, what do I need?
Oh yeah, I need to do this.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I need to do this dude.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Thanks again.
I enjoyed this.
It was really fun and I can'twait.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I had fun too.
Man can't wait to see you inNew York.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I know only a couple weeks away more pizza, more wine
, more whiskey.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I'm ready, I'll see you there.
I love.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It sounds good.
Bye this guy.
Who is this guy who?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
is this guy NorCal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy,
norcal guy, norcal guy, norcalguy, norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal and chill Podcast Show.
It's chill time NorCal andchill Podcast.
What the?
What the Chill?
Norcal and chill Podcast Show.
It's chill time.
(26:30):
Norcal and chill Podcast.
What the?
What the.
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