August 7, 2025 • 50 mins
Venture into the dynamic world of crypto art and NFTs with Eli Scheinman, whose journey from skepticism to passionate advocate offers fresh perspectives on digital ownership and creativity.
Eli's story begins with healthy doubt – finding NFTs both "crazy" and "absurd" – yet these very qualities sparked a curiosity that led him deep into the blockchain art ecosystem. Unlike traditional collectors with lifelong habits, Eli approached the space with fresh eyes, drawn not to collectability but to the revolutionary creative canvas blockchain technology offers artists and creators.
The conversation takes a particularly meaningful turn when discussing the human element of Web3. "The best things in Web3 for me are the relationships," Eli shares, highlighting an intriguing paradox where digital objects become the connective tissue for profound real-world connections. For adults who typically struggle to form diverse new friendships, the Web3 community has facilitated connections across geographical, professional, and cultural boundaries in ways traditional social structures rarely achieve.
Looking toward the future, Eli offers a measured perspective on adoption timelines, suggesting that while five years might not show dramatic shifts in the collector landscape, the 10-20 year horizon will likely reveal substantial evolution as digital-native generations gain purchasing power. His market insights cut through typical hype cycles with practical wisdom: "Demand matters more than supply," he notes, explaining why established artists can expand their output while emerging creators must be more strategic.
Beyond crypto discourse, Eli's fascinating life experiences enrich the discussion – from a solo bicycle journey from Vancouver to Mexico followed by months working on a Hawaiian farm, to meaningful time spent with seed savers of heirloom rice in rural South India. These adventures have shaped his minimalist collecting philosophy, where meaningful connection trumps accumulation.
Whether you're a seasoned collector, curious creator, or simply interested in how technology shapes culture and community, this episode offers valuable perspectives on the human connections forming at the intersection of art and technology.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Who is this?
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal and chill podcast.
So it's chill time, norcal andchill podcast.
(00:22):
What the fuck?
What the chill?
Norcal and chillill Podcast.
What the sh what the sh-?
Norcal and Shill Podcast.
So it's Shill time, norcal andShill Podcast.
What the sh-, what the sh-.
Welcome to this next episode ofNorCal and Shill.
Today we have Eli Scheinman asour guest, diving deep into the
world of crypto art and NFTs.
(00:43):
Eli initially found theconcepts of crypto art and NFTs.
Eli initially found theconcepts of crypto art and NFTs
both crazy and absurd, whichfueled his curiosity.
Although he didn't see himselfas a collector growing up, he's
now drawn to NFTs for theircreative potential rather than
collectability.
A big part of the conversationtouches on the unique
(01:06):
relationships formed throughWeb3, making it a rich area for
human connection.
Looking ahead, eli predicts itwill take time for the broader
collector base to shift, drivenby younger generations gradually
gaining purchasing power.
He also sees an increase in thenumber of creators,
(01:27):
contributing to greaterdiversity in crypto art.
This episode also highlightsthe slow adoption of NFTs and
cryptocurrencies, eli'sminimalist approach to
meaningful purchases and hisideas for potential art
collaborations.
A heartfelt segment reveals thepersonal significance behind
(01:48):
Eli's favorite NFTs, adding anemotional layer to the
conversation.
Overall, this episode is atreasure trove for any crypto
art enthusiast, blending marketinsights, artistic values and
the human connections making thespace so vibrant.
Don't miss out on this engagingdiscussion that explores the
(02:10):
future landscape of NFTs andblockchain art.
Everybody, please welcome EliScheinman.
Hey, eli, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I'm doing great.
I'm excited to chop it up.
This is long overdue.
You're one of the absolute best.
So excited to spend some timetogether Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Put some pressure on me.
Uh, no, man, it's good.
Um, you know, you've beenaround the space, been a part of
some different art projects andit's.
It's great to actually get tosit down and have a chat and see
what your thoughts are on somethings.
It'd be great, it's going to befun.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
So what were your first thoughts when you heard
about crypto art and NFTs?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, I mean, my first, very first thought is
that, or or was that like thisis crazy, uh-huh, um and absurd,
and um didn't fully understandit, and for all of those reasons
(03:19):
, uh, it was really fascinatingto me, right?
Um, you know, I'm a relativelycurious person by nature, open
minded, and so those things thatwere difficult to understand
and esoteric made it all seemvery attractive.
So that was sort of the initialeffect that that NFTs had on me
(03:44):
, initial effect that that nftshad on me.
And then, I think, becausethere was this curiosity mixed
with lack of understanding, um,that really pushed me down the
rabbit hole, um to to gorelatively deep, uh, and then,
you know, now I find myself heredid you collect anything
(04:08):
beforehand like basketball cards, art or?
no, you know, I've never I'venever really thought of myself
as a collector, um, and I neverwent super deep on like magic
cards or Pokemon or I mean whenI was very young baseball cards
(04:31):
a little bit, yeah, but that wasquite young.
There's no sophistication withthe collecting there.
Right, some hockey cardcollecting, so I was trying to
get as many Pavao Bure cardshockey player as possible, but,
you know, not with anysophistication at all.
That was more of a childhoodthing.
(04:53):
And you know, thecollectability side of NFTs and
art on the blockchain was notthis principal thing that I
found most interesting.
It was more that this is thisbrand new canvas for creativity
and for artists and creators todo things that I hadn't seen
(05:17):
done before, and there was thisway to interact with those
creations in this novel way, wayto interact with those
creations in this novel way, andso I think those elements are
what really created a collectorin me, right?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
No, I like that.
What do you think the bestthings are about Web3 today?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It's a great question .
I mean the, the, the, the, youknow, the.
I think this is maybe like a, ahand wavy answer, but the best
things in web three for me arethe relationships, which is is I
think it is interestingdichotomy, because some of the
strongest bonds I've cultivatedand made with people who are my
(06:13):
peers in the space, likeyourself, have actually occurred
mostly in person.
Oh yeah, yet it's the digitalobjects and the networks around
those digital objects and thisshared, uh, fascination and
engagement with those objects.
More or less that is theconnective tissue that brought
(06:34):
us together, and so I think it'sthe thing I I value most about
web3 in this moment is thatinterpersonal element of it,
which exists in part online butis really a function of what's
happened online and is thentranslated into IRL moments that
(06:57):
would be hard to replicate and,in particular, as an adult,
some version of an adult, tocultivate net new relationships,
friendships with really diversepeople from all over the world
with different competencies,different backgrounds.
That's unique, that's notnormal, I don't think, to the
(07:20):
human experience for most people.
So that's probably the partthat that I think is sort of
most special yeah, no, that'svery true.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Um, to think I would be making new friends at the age
I'm at is like like no, that'snot, that's not gonna happen,
but yeah definitely in the spaceyou're like.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Oh, man yeah, you think like what are the, what
are the analogous versions oflike cultivating new
relationships as an adult?
It's like like maybe it's likethe country club and like you
make friends with your golf, newgolf buddies?
right right that's different,because that's such a filter for
the type of people who arecountry club members right
(08:04):
already.
That's such a filter for thetype of people who are country
club members already.
And there's, you know, otherprobably sort of social clubs
and groups.
Like you know, maybe you takeup playing paddle or something
and then, like you have this newgroup of people you play sports
with.
But it's very unique?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I think it is.
It is definitely unique,definitely yeah, because I mean
outside of like like what youmentioned, like basically the
country club, which I feel likethat probably is like the only
place in most towns, if theyeven have one, besides like
being the local at the bar thateveryone knows.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yes, yeah true, yes, yeah, the watering hole is still
a great place to cultivate therelationship.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yes, so where do you see crypto art NFTs in five
years?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
That's another very good question.
You know, I think we couldunpack that in a couple
different ways.
Probably.
The thing that comes to mindfor me first is what does the
collector base and theaddressable market around crypto
(09:18):
art look like?
Who is engaging with crypto artis the place I go first with
crypto art is the place I gofirst, and in five years, my
assumption is that it actuallydoesn't look that much different
than it does today.
You know, I think we probablyneed slightly longer time scales
(09:41):
10 years, 15 years, 20 years tosee the composition of those
intimately engaged with cryptoart and for crypto art to be
just ubiquitous in daily life.
It's probably a little bitlonger than, let's say, five
years, because someone who'smaybe 15 today, who lives online
(10:02):
and experiences ownership overdigital objects natively and
just gets it, they don't havepurchasing power to engage with
crypto art maybe for another 10years or something in 15 years.
So that's the first place I go.
I mean, I think you'll see justa proliferation of creation.
(10:25):
I think that the number ofcreators engaging with crypto
art is still so small andminuscule that creating on the
blockchain and expressing someof those ideals of crypto art
will become increasinglyubiquitous and so much more
surface area, uh, expressed, uhover time.
(10:49):
But you know, I think, outsideof that, what we could take it
to a sort of a marketperspective or a traditional art
collector uh adoptionperspective.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
But those are the first couple things that come to
mind there yeah, you know, Ikind of agree with you on the
timeline as far as extending itout a little bit, just because,
like in crypto itself, it'staking so long for what people
thought would happen potentiallysooner because of the
(11:20):
technology that it is.
But you know we're looking atlike 14 years that bitcoin's
been around now somewhere inthere and we're still barely
scratching the surface of peoplelike what is cryptocurrency?
Is it a scam?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
still type of thing yeah, and I mean, how do you
separate crypto art fromgenerative art, from other forms
of art on the blockchain?
Or when you say crypto art foryou, is that everything?
(12:00):
Nft.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, I would say it would encompass all art forms
that are on the blockchain.
I mean, I definitely could seemaybe generative art potentially
.
I don't know.
I don't know if it's easier tograsp, but there's something
tangible to the fact that allthe code is on the chain and you
(12:24):
can produce that image anywhere, as long as you got the chain.
There's something to that Idefinitely agree, which is
different than like, yeah, goahead.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
What's your view on Xcopy?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Are you an Xcopy?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
collector.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
I mean I have a couple of his pieces.
I don't have any one of ones.
I have some additions, I okay,so I'm not a hype guy, I don't
buy the trends and yeah, also xcopy I would look at as more of
an investment.
Not like that.
(13:04):
I like the art, like I, I andeven at that point I would say
the multiples of return on an xcopy are probably not worth what
you would buy a one-on-one for,because sure, in reality, and
especially people that arebuying x copies are buying it in
(13:25):
eth and they want to sell it ineth.
Are you going to get thatmultiple return putting like 250
eth into a one of one versuslike if they priced it in usd?
Yeah, so I, I don't see theupside to an X copy myself.
Sure.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, when are you seeing and now I'm flipping the
tables here where I hope that'sokay, yeah, I love it when are
you seeing opportunity in thiscurrent market, Like, where do
you see there's maybe a multipleopportunity over here or over
(14:07):
there, or do you?
Is that not part of your, yourmental model for collecting and
you're buying stuff that you,you love and you want to hold
forever?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Well, okay.
So there's a couple of ways youcould approach this.
There's buying.
You know, if you're looking formultiples, if you want to make
multiples right now, youreasiest bet is to collect on
Rodeo for free.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Oh, interesting yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
That's the bet.
That's the bet Because it'sfree.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
You think some of those that are basically free
might, might ultimately havesome real value yeah interesting
I mean that's pretty much whatx copy was.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
It was dirt cheap.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, not that these people approach
over there what is your approachover there, just to like
collect so broadly?
Oh no, like you're like angelinvesting.
It's like let me just geteverything no or is it like?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
yeah, I won't buy everything like I I have
collected on rodeo and I willonly collect the pieces I think
are good.
I'm not going to collect everyservice, everything, yeah, um,
within the space, I definitelywould say editions over one of
ones If you're looking formultiples to return and if I
(15:37):
want to say, like not to toot myown horn, but Click Create
probably has like the besteditions.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
And they're curated under a theme, so there's some
cohesiveness to it.
Yes, um, so that probably iswhere I would look, not
investment advice, but, yeah,that's what I would say yeah, it
creates the best.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I love what you guys are doing but yeah, that's uh, I
guess how I would approach ityeah, yeah, that that made sense
and I I haven't heard, so I hadcave on from uh I call it rodeo
um on on our podcast earlierand and uh, my thinking on it
(16:23):
has evolved.
I, I thought it was, um, maybenot the the most net positive
for artists to be sharing workin that way, but he
reconstructed my thinking, Ithink.
Enough in that conversationwhere I can see the value prop
for artists in a couple ofdifferent ways.
I hadn't heard your perspectivefrom the collector viewpoint
(16:47):
where, um, where that maybe it'sjust enjoyable and fun.
That's one, but two, theremight actually be a path there
to collecting basically freework from some artists who
really have some escape velocityin.
Maybe it is five years from now.
Right, it's cool.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, and I mean, dang, I was going to touch on
something and now I'm blankingon it.
Um, anyways, yeah, I don't knowwhat I was gonna say it was
there and then it's gone um,yeah, that happens but yeah, I,
I mean I it on that platform,it's oh okay.
I was going to say I don't knowif I necessarily agree with
(17:31):
free art going out there.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So that's the flip side of it.
I think you should cause.
When it's free, it's notnecessarily valued, but what's
interesting is that a lot ofthat stuff on Rodeo Rodeoo,
whatever they call it isrelatively low additions yes,
yes, it is well.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I like the ephemeral element.
Right, it's 24 hours, yeah, andthen you cannot mint it again.
So you're right.
I was looking at, uh, someartists um open c page for rodeo
and most of the edition sizeswere like four.
Yeah, there was like one, therewas like two and then maybe a
12.
And you're right, they're verysmall editions.
(18:15):
If that was X copy in, you know, in 2020 or something, 2018,
like wow, great opportunity.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
So yeah, yeah, it's cool, it's interesting.
Um, yeah, for sure, is thereanything that I switched, it
switching I turned the tablethere.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Hey, I like it.
I like it, it's fun.
We're gonna get to more of thatyou know later.
But switching back back to whatwould you like to see more of
in the crypto art space?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Well, help me out here.
From the artist side or fromthe collector side?
Let's start there.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Well, I mean, you have a unique perspective
because you kind of like bringthem together in a way Sure, as
do you.
But yeah, so I don't, I don'tknow.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, let me, let me see, you know, I think it's a
great, great point, like from myvantage point not not trying to
put on an artist's hat or acollector hat from my vantage
point, not trying to put on anartist's hat or a collector hat
From my vantage point, I thinkthat one of the things I'd like
to see more is long termstewardship and patronage,
(19:41):
meaning that this has almostnothing to do with the so-called
traditional art world notion ofexclusivity.
It has a lot more to do withpartnership and very durable
career building and sustainablecareer building with the right
(20:05):
partners.
And so you know what does that?
I'm talking like reallyabstract terms.
What does that actually mean?
You know?
For example, I think it wouldlook like an artist and an
intermediary, meaning someplatform or gallerist those are
sort of interchangeable in ourworld in some ways and a
(20:26):
collector working together andhaving a relationship that
evolves over many months andultimately many years and
decades, and that there's trustamongst those three parties and
that it's net positive foreveryone across those three uh
(20:46):
three stakeholders in thatrelationship.
They all add value, right, likethe collector is collecting the
artwork, but then they're alsoamplifying for the artist.
So I'd like to see a lot moreof that.
I think it's natural that in avery nascent industry and space
(21:07):
that there is, there's moreswitching.
The switching costs are verylow and everyone is still kind
of sorting it out for themselveswhen do I fit, what does work
for me, what do I need?
So it's natural, I think, thatpeople are sort of experimenting
in those relationships.
(21:28):
It's probably healthyultimately, but I'd like to see
us get to a place where peoplesort of find their people,
meaning artists find the rightpartners to release work,
collectors find the partner, theintermediaries, their partners
that they trust to curateeffectively.
The artists get to know thecollectors directly, who they're
(21:50):
selling work to.
I'd like to see more of thatand I think you know Click
Create is doing important workin that sort of intermediary
role, that connector role.
Proof is trying to do versionsand myself, you know,
individually, I'm trying to doversions and myself, you know,
individually I'm trying to do aversion of that as well.
But I'd like to see those moredurable relationships that are
(22:12):
fundamentally, you know, they'rebuilt on trust.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, uh, more than anything, um, so I'd like to see
that for sure so the next kindof question is kind of your
approach or your thoughts ondoes supply matter and how do
you think additions and one ofones should work together?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah.
So I think the way I'd answerthat is to say that demand
matters more than supply.
Okay, yeah, matters more thansupply, okay, yeah.
And what I mean is that forsomeone like Xcopy, supply
(22:57):
matters very little becausethere's sufficient demand, and
for an emerging artist or maybea so-called mid-tier artist,
supply matters a lot becausethere's there's less demand,
there's sort of medium demandperhaps, or the demand has been
met even at that moment in time,right, um, so I think,
basically, x copy can expand hissupply almost indefinitely and
(23:22):
there will always be demand tomeet that supply.
Most artists, artists, that isnot the case, and the only
difference there is the demand.
So, yeah, it absolutely doesmatter in my view.
Now I think, if we go back tothe rodeo conversation, that is
(23:43):
reconstructing my views onscarcity just a little bit,
because artists are releasingwork almost every day.
In some cases they are alladditions and so you get.
You know, if you aggregated allof those works from an artist,
you'd be adding to their supplyquite quickly, quite quickly.
(24:10):
And I think the question thatis unresolved there so far is
does that additional supply for,in particular, for an emerging
artist, affect maybe theirone-of-one sales over here that
they already have or that theyanticipate having in the future.
I think that's TBD.
We'll sort of.
We'll see how that plays out.
The one thing I think is's TBD.
We'll see how that plays out.
The one thing I think is worthnoting is that something like
(24:31):
Rodeo it exists, the work that'sbeing released there, even if
it ultimately is adding a lot ofsupply for an artist within a
context that might just bediscreet enough from their
addition with click create, orfrom their generative project
(24:54):
with art blocks, or their one ofones on super rare, that thing
over here.
Let's just call it rodeo, butthere's other examples might be
contextual enough and it's in1155, that it doesn't affect
those other collections andtheir other work in the same way
as if you know everything wason their own contract.
(25:16):
They're releasing new editionsevery day, so I think it's
context dependent and demand isreally the vector of of supply
and demand that matters mostright, no, no, that makes sense,
like I I do.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, I don't know the whole additions thing is.
I guess it depends on if peopleget the I want to collect them
all type of thing and want tocollect all those additions
versus like I only want one ofthose or yeah, it all, just yeah
.
Which is back to demand like Ineed the whole set or do I just
need?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
a couple of these which is an interesting thing,
yeah how big are the editionsizes of the click create
releases typically?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
uh, we are at like 110 or so that's a that's a
great size.
Yeah, and those are 721s or1155 they're 1155s yep, yeah,
yep, cool yep what is a piece ofadvice you've been given, or do
you have like kind of like amantra that you kind of run
(26:30):
through your head, that you kindof live by?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
oh, that's a great question.
I didn't prep for this one.
Let's see.
Um, I have a favorite.
One of my favorite quotes okay,is a bruce lee quote oh, um,
which is I might not get itexactly right, but it's time,
it's something to the effect of.
Time means a lot to me, becauseI'm often lost in the journey
(26:59):
of forever developing.
Oh, it's something to thateffect, and what I take away
from that is, or what that meansto me, is that curiosity means
to me, is that curiosity andhaving an open mind and wanting
(27:21):
to learn and listen, learn fromothers mostly are the things I
value most and I try to get asmuch of that in as possible, so
that one has always struck me asa sort of orienting lens for my
worldview in some respects.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, I like that one .
That's really good.
If you could live or moveanywhere, where would you live
and why?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Okay, I like these questions the most.
Um, well, so, um, after Ifinished university, I did this
uh, we call it university inCanada Um, not college.
Um, I did, uh, a solo bicycletrip, a bike tour from Vancouver
(28:12):
, canada, to Mexico.
Oh, wow, and and.
So that in and of itself was agreat journey, but at the end of
that journey, I flew to the bigisland of Hawaii and lived on a
farm picking coffee andclimbing coconut trees and this
(28:32):
bevy of tropical fruits foraround six months, and if I did
not have to be online and oncalls in a time zone that is
respectful of the East Coast, Iwould maybe move to Hawaii
(28:53):
somewhere just to have thatimmersion in nature, ocean,
jungle, hiking.
For me, those are theenvironmental things that make
me most content.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Oh, man, I had no idea.
That's really awesome.
So if you were an animal, whatwould you be and why?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Wow, I think.
I mean maybe this is a cop-out.
I'm curious what your otherguests say, but for me it's like
chimpanzee.
Okay, there's something that'slike human enough about a
(29:43):
chimpanzee, and maybe I'mprojecting, but human enough
about a chimpanzee, but withthis sort of playful bent that I
think more humans probably needand would be well served to
have in their own life.
That the playfulness and theability to sort of navigate
(30:04):
nature with that play is maybethe spirit of an animal that I
think is um is pretty fun yeah,I like that, that's very solid.
What do most of your?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
guests say oh, I guess.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Uh, there's a lot of bird like eagle or some sort of
bird um, oh, you set me up forthe, the perfect punch line,
which would be owl from my prooffolks.
No, let's not go there.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
All right, we won't touch that, but leading into
what is the best thing and thesilliest thing you've spent
money on, oh geez.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Um, man, that's a good question.
I mean, if I'm, this is theworst answer.
But, um, I'm a, I'm aminimalist, and so the I do not
really spend on on things thatwould would ever feel to me like
superfluous or or it's kind ofsilly.
(31:16):
Yeah, that feels so boring andlike stop trying to be like this
stoic minimalist guy, but it's,I think it's true.
And then the thing that I'vespent on that is maybe the most
(31:36):
meaningful are actually thesedifferent art objects that I
have.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So I have these, helena Saron whiskey tumblers,
okay, she handmade that.
She released with us.
Yeah, that's one of my absolutefavorite things that that I
have.
I have this emily she physical,uh work, um, that I absolutely
love.
Um, I have a people physical,like there are these couple
(32:02):
physical art objects, yeah, thatare also charged or imbued with
my relationship with thosepeople or the way it was created
or the way I acquired it.
That, yes, it's like a littlemug or whiskey tumbler, but it
has all of that meaning bakedinto it, right?
So those are, those areprobably my favorite purchases.
(32:25):
Those are both pretty boringanswers.
I'm sure you get some wilderthings said on this.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
No, it's good on this one, it's good.
Um, yeah, to have that likepottery made by alina is pretty
pretty solid, so sick.
Yeah, yeah, this one's gonna behard.
If you could commission a pieceand have two artists collab on
it, which two artists would itbe?
And have two artists collab onit, which two?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
artists, would it be?
Can I put it back to you?
Have you answered this questionbefore?
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I have, but I answer it like differently every time.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
If you okay.
So while I think about it, whowould you choose?
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Oh man, man, today I'm kind of I don't know.
Jeff Frost pops into my headnow, but who would he collab
with?
Because he's a video type, atime-lapse, unique Like that
(33:34):
will do robotic arms withcameras and like make them move
in different ways.
So who would that collab with?
You know, like I wonder if it'dbe interesting to collab that
with some sort of like painting.
So maybe him and like'm justgonna throw out molly mccutchen
(33:57):
because she's been she's with.
She dropped a click rate thismonth and she's on my mind, so
like if he did some sort of timelapse of an art piece, of a big
art piece or something, andlike I think it could be
interesting.
I don't know what it would belike, but it'd be kind of crazy.
Who knows?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I love that.
Okay, great, great collabsuggestion the place, the place
I go is that the obviouscontributor to this
collaboration is ACK.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
And Alpha Centauri, kid Yep.
There's something about hismind, but also his aesthetic,
that I think is such a goodcomplement to a collaborator,
because it's distinct, it'swholly his, and then is also
(34:58):
sort of versatile enough to takeon a few different forms, which
I think is fascinating abouthis body of work and his process
.
So, for example, I'm imagininglike a, an ACK, emily Shi, to go
back to Emily and, like youknow she, she has all of these
(35:19):
sort of textile based Asianinfluenced patterns in her work.
And then like ACK, with hisglitch aesthetic, um, and some
of the sort of floral elementsof what he does.
I think there's somethingpretty cool there.
Um, that's, that's my finalanswer.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
All right, ak, emily she all right, that works, that
works, I like it.
I feel like you kind of threwthis out there already but if
you have and you can, and it wasfor me, the interesting fact
about eu was that you, like dida bike ride and then you lived
(36:00):
in in hawaii and, like, workedon the farm.
But would you like to letothers know about another
interesting fact or just rollwith what we already said?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
I mean, I've had as is true of so many people, I
think, in crypto a bunch ofdifferent lives, and you know
(36:50):
the one that people willsometimes I own, uh, I wish I I
had it behind me, I could go getit.
Uh, if, if you want, uh, isthis beautiful sculpture, um,
made by one of the most renownedseed savers of heirloom rice in
(37:11):
south india, and he gifted methis sculpture that he made with
these heirloom varieties ofrice, oh, wow, which, for their
culture, is deeply important asa way to transmute their history
and their culture into the nextgeneration.
So that whole experience ofbeing immersed in South India
(37:36):
for over a month, in the mostrural parts of that area,
spending time with these farmers, was transformative in a lot of
ways, and so that's maybe lessa fun fact and a little more
color to my background.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, no, that is amazing, I like that answer.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I wish I had it here.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah, you'll have to get it for the next show 100%.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
I'll send you a picture, all right.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
So do you have any questions for me?
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Oh, I have so many questions.
How long can we go?
Let's do it okay.
Um, where do you think we arein in web3 crypto art?
Are we?
Are we sort of resetting in ahealthy way for sort of the next
phase?
Are we in a sort of challengingspot and it's uncertain where
(38:37):
we go from here?
Do you have your own concernsabout the trajectory of things?
How are you feeling about sortof now and what's forthcoming?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
I mean I think it's been a good reset.
We've had a lot of people leave, not that that's a good thing,
but it kind of is a good thingto have people that aren't here
for the right reasons be outno-transcript and it happens
(39:25):
because they're not traders,they're not used to doing these
or getting into the hype andthen losing their money on it.
So that kind of sucks andthat's definitely going to
happen again.
To like everyone.
I mean they lost their shirtson.
A lot of them lost their shirtson like PFP trading and then the
(39:49):
meme coins and whatnot um, andI guess like that concern is
just like hopefully that theyhave learned a lesson that
hasn't ruined them and they'll,you know, just keep on chugging.
You know, part of it is like Ifeel like a lot of artists came
(40:12):
in as artists and thentransitioned to being a trader
instead of making art anymore.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah, which kind of sucks let me ask you about that
like when the um, the meme coinmoment in the summer was kind of
going crazy and a bunch ofartists were like really leaning
in and like posting about theirmeme coin profits and trades
(40:41):
and like on the one hand, Iappreciate that you know being a
full time artist is incrediblychallenging and so like yeah,
fuck, yeah good for you Go findways to ultimately focus more on
(41:01):
your art, of course, but thenthe other sort of less
charitable view of that was likeno focus on your art.
Art don't be like meme cointrading all day.
Like just make art and and showme art.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
I mean I don't know if you had a view on or have a
view on that yeah, I don't knowif I it's the like, it's more
like I've and I felt like thisis like I love your art and I
feel like you stopped and I sureI don't care if people trade
(41:44):
meme coins or pfps or whatever,but you know, I liked your art
and now I haven't seen any of itin like who?
knows how long yeah, and that'sI guess, and maybe that's just
me.
Like dang, I like this artist alot and now I'm like I wish
(42:04):
they made art still, or theystill were making art, or you
know, are they just traders now?
So I don't know.
There's different ways toapproach it and it I'm happy
with.
I want the artists to make themoney, to make money regardless.
However you want to do that, itjust sucks when you have
(42:26):
something that you loved andthen you'd like try to drop it,
which makes me, you knowquestion like how much did you
love it?
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah, sure, how do you think about um, click create
and um and some of the thingswe talked about supply and
demand, but also like choosingartists and and collaborators,
and you get pressure from yourcollectors of click create works
to say, like, stop releasing,focus on the other, the ones you
(42:57):
already released, like from the, the founder platform side?
How do you think about some ofthose things?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
well, I definitely feel.
I mean, as the space grows, Ithink edition sizes are going to
have to grow regardless foreverybody.
If you want to build that, youknow you want to build fans of
your work or your project andyou know, potentially 100
(43:26):
edition size is not enough.
I mean, granted, we're doing itlike every week so people can
join into it, but I still feellike it's still on the small
side.
Um, definitely would like to golarger when demand is there,
but definitely not trying to dothat unless there is demand.
Um, we don't get push from anycollectors anymore.
(43:51):
Initially, when we first did,when we released the sub pass,
our genesis pass, um, we did getlike, hey, you guys are doing
it wrong.
And we're like we told you fromthe get-go this is how we're
running it.
So we're doing what we can andyou know part of it's the market
(44:12):
, but you won't want to be aparticipant in this art project.
You can always sell your pass.
And we told you you didn't haveto have a pass to get the art.
It just guaranteed you the artif you wanted it, yeah.
And then, from the artist side,mean, then we also.
The thing, the good thing is,we don't choose the artists.
(44:37):
The curators do each month, sowe just have to go find curators
for the season and then, liketwo to three months ahead of
time, we start bugging themabout getting making sure they
have their artists lined up andready to go for their month.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, um, yeah, and the the incentive to the curator
is is it economic or is it justthe desire for them to platform
artists that they care?
Speaker 1 (45:04):
about.
It's both um.
So, like our, we give curatorsa 10 cut of the drop, um, but
many, many don't take it.
They just give it to the artist, um, but it is there for those
that you know would like to takeit for, because it does take
work to organize this group andget this art made.
(45:25):
Um, but sorry, what was therest of that question?
Speaker 2 (45:34):
I'm like oh, just you know.
I was just curious about theincentives for the curator, but
that that totally made sense,mostly about just getting to
play that role of platformingthe artist yeah, they get the
platform, the artist.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
They get to choose a rising star.
Um, they also get, you know, acertain amount of additions from
each artist that month.
Um, yeah, so they get free art.
They can do whatever they wantwith it, yeah um, yeah, but yeah
, that's part um and it's everyweek yes, once a week, and I
(46:13):
mean part of what goes into thatis there's a curator video that
he talked they, he or she talksabout the artists.
There's yeah, this art releasevideos.
There's the artist videos.
So there's a lot of contentabout around each of the the
artists that drops with us.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Yeah, that's great.
Okay, I have one last question.
Let's do it.
What's the deal with thebiscuits?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
So during the pandemic I don't know who did it
first, probably my sister madebiscuits and then, like I don't
know if it was that same weekendor the next week, my mom did it
, made biscuits, but they werejust making drop biscuits.
And then I was like I can makebiscuits too, so I made rolled
(47:07):
and cut biscuits and then Iloved them so much, I just kept
on doing it every week, everyweek and just like made tweaks
to the recipe and I also makethem.
They're like small biscuits,they're like inch and a half,
two inches across, and so, yeah,that was it.
And then I just, it just wasfunny.
(47:28):
I thought it was funny and Iwas like I'll just post about it
on Twitter and so it's just afunny thing that I enjoy and and
now, you know, occasionallywe'll do biscuit breakfasts at
like an event, where I'll makethe best biscuits and then like
tater tots and uh eggs and justinvite people over to have
breakfast.
So it's been fun.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
Hell yeah, Hell yeah, Hell yeah.
It's great man.
Well, it's awesome to join youand excited for everything you
guys are doing at ClickCreate.
Man.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Thanks, man.
Do you have any projects you'reworking on that you'd like to?
Tell us about.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
I would just say go to my Twitter.
Every week we're doing ourVaulted podcast, yep, and I'm
not sure when this will come out, but A couple of weeks Every
week we have, yeah, yeah, everyweek we have some great, great
guests.
You know, I really like thatshow because at the tail end of
(48:29):
each episode we do, uh, what Icall like what's in your vault,
and so we go into both of theguests vaults and, um, we let
them share a piece.
It's so infrequently a highvalue piece.
It's.
It's much more like you knowwhat, what was an NFT?
(48:49):
That was like impactful in yourcollecting journey, and the
stories that come out of thosemoments are pretty special.
So it's fun to be able to slowdown a little bit in that
respect, get rid of thefinancial element entirely in
that section of the show andjust hear these great stories
about why people fell in lovewith collecting.
(49:11):
Yeah, so, yeah, we, we sharethose episodes, uh, every
thursday nice, I love that.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
No, I do like that part.
Uh, I think I've watched two ofthem so far and yeah, that's it
that's such a good uh additionto the show just to be able to
see what people like and and thepersonal touch to it.
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Well, cool man Eli, I just want to say cool.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show Spring some time with
me.
I loved it.
Uh, I loved getting grilledwith some questions too, cause
that was really fun, and withsome questions too, because that
was really fun and thanks,thank you again.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
My honor man, so great, thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Outro Music.
Who is this?
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal and chill podcast.
So it's chill time, norcal andchill podcast.
(00:22):
What the fuck?
What the chill?
Norcal and chillill Podcast.
What the sh what the sh-?
Norcal and Shill Podcast.
So it's Shill time, norcal andShill Podcast.
What the sh-, what the sh-.
Welcome to this next episode ofNorCal and Shill.
Today we have Eli Scheinman asour guest, diving deep into the
world of crypto art and NFTs.
(00:43):
Eli initially found theconcepts of crypto art and NFTs.
Eli initially found theconcepts of crypto art and NFTs
both crazy and absurd, whichfueled his curiosity.
Although he didn't see himselfas a collector growing up, he's
now drawn to NFTs for theircreative potential rather than
collectability.
A big part of the conversationtouches on the unique
(01:06):
relationships formed throughWeb3, making it a rich area for
human connection.
Looking ahead, eli predicts itwill take time for the broader
collector base to shift, drivenby younger generations gradually
gaining purchasing power.
He also sees an increase in thenumber of creators,
(01:27):
contributing to greaterdiversity in crypto art.
This episode also highlightsthe slow adoption of NFTs and
cryptocurrencies, eli'sminimalist approach to
meaningful purchases and hisideas for potential art
collaborations.
A heartfelt segment reveals thepersonal significance behind
(01:48):
Eli's favorite NFTs, adding anemotional layer to the
conversation.
Overall, this episode is atreasure trove for any crypto
art enthusiast, blending marketinsights, artistic values and
the human connections making thespace so vibrant.
Don't miss out on this engagingdiscussion that explores the
(02:10):
future landscape of NFTs andblockchain art.
Everybody, please welcome EliScheinman.
Hey, eli, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I'm doing great.
I'm excited to chop it up.
This is long overdue.
You're one of the absolute best.
So excited to spend some timetogether Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Put some pressure on me.
Uh, no, man, it's good.
Um, you know, you've beenaround the space, been a part of
some different art projects andit's.
It's great to actually get tosit down and have a chat and see
what your thoughts are on somethings.
It'd be great, it's going to befun.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
So what were your first thoughts when you heard
about crypto art and NFTs?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, I mean, my first, very first thought is
that, or or was that like thisis crazy, uh-huh, um and absurd,
and um didn't fully understandit, and for all of those reasons
(03:19):
, uh, it was really fascinatingto me, right?
Um, you know, I'm a relativelycurious person by nature, open
minded, and so those things thatwere difficult to understand
and esoteric made it all seemvery attractive.
So that was sort of the initialeffect that that NFTs had on me
(03:44):
, initial effect that that nftshad on me.
And then, I think, becausethere was this curiosity mixed
with lack of understanding, um,that really pushed me down the
rabbit hole, um to to gorelatively deep, uh, and then,
you know, now I find myself heredid you collect anything
(04:08):
beforehand like basketball cards, art or?
no, you know, I've never I'venever really thought of myself
as a collector, um, and I neverwent super deep on like magic
cards or Pokemon or I mean whenI was very young baseball cards
(04:31):
a little bit, yeah, but that wasquite young.
There's no sophistication withthe collecting there.
Right, some hockey cardcollecting, so I was trying to
get as many Pavao Bure cardshockey player as possible, but,
you know, not with anysophistication at all.
That was more of a childhoodthing.
(04:53):
And you know, thecollectability side of NFTs and
art on the blockchain was notthis principal thing that I
found most interesting.
It was more that this is thisbrand new canvas for creativity
and for artists and creators todo things that I hadn't seen
(05:17):
done before, and there was thisway to interact with those
creations in this novel way, wayto interact with those
creations in this novel way, andso I think those elements are
what really created a collectorin me, right?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
No, I like that.
What do you think the bestthings are about Web3 today?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It's a great question .
I mean the, the, the, the, youknow, the.
I think this is maybe like a, ahand wavy answer, but the best
things in web three for me arethe relationships, which is is I
think it is interestingdichotomy, because some of the
strongest bonds I've cultivatedand made with people who are my
(06:13):
peers in the space, likeyourself, have actually occurred
mostly in person.
Oh yeah, yet it's the digitalobjects and the networks around
those digital objects and thisshared, uh, fascination and
engagement with those objects.
More or less that is theconnective tissue that brought
(06:34):
us together, and so I think it'sthe thing I I value most about
web3 in this moment is thatinterpersonal element of it,
which exists in part online butis really a function of what's
happened online and is thentranslated into IRL moments that
(06:57):
would be hard to replicate and,in particular, as an adult,
some version of an adult, tocultivate net new relationships,
friendships with really diversepeople from all over the world
with different competencies,different backgrounds.
That's unique, that's notnormal, I don't think, to the
(07:20):
human experience for most people.
So that's probably the partthat that I think is sort of
most special yeah, no, that'svery true.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Um, to think I would be making new friends at the age
I'm at is like like no, that'snot, that's not gonna happen,
but yeah definitely in the spaceyou're like.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Oh, man yeah, you think like what are the, what
are the analogous versions oflike cultivating new
relationships as an adult?
It's like like maybe it's likethe country club and like you
make friends with your golf, newgolf buddies?
right right that's different,because that's such a filter for
the type of people who arecountry club members right
(08:04):
already.
That's such a filter for thetype of people who are country
club members already.
And there's, you know, otherprobably sort of social clubs
and groups.
Like you know, maybe you takeup playing paddle or something
and then, like you have this newgroup of people you play sports
with.
But it's very unique?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I think it is.
It is definitely unique,definitely yeah, because I mean
outside of like like what youmentioned, like basically the
country club, which I feel likethat probably is like the only
place in most towns, if theyeven have one, besides like
being the local at the bar thateveryone knows.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yes, yeah true, yes, yeah, the watering hole is still
a great place to cultivate therelationship.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yes, so where do you see crypto art NFTs in five
years?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
That's another very good question.
You know, I think we couldunpack that in a couple
different ways.
Probably.
The thing that comes to mindfor me first is what does the
collector base and theaddressable market around crypto
(09:18):
art look like?
Who is engaging with crypto artis the place I go first with
crypto art is the place I gofirst, and in five years, my
assumption is that it actuallydoesn't look that much different
than it does today.
You know, I think we probablyneed slightly longer time scales
(09:41):
10 years, 15 years, 20 years tosee the composition of those
intimately engaged with cryptoart and for crypto art to be
just ubiquitous in daily life.
It's probably a little bitlonger than, let's say, five
years, because someone who'smaybe 15 today, who lives online
(10:02):
and experiences ownership overdigital objects natively and
just gets it, they don't havepurchasing power to engage with
crypto art maybe for another 10years or something in 15 years.
So that's the first place I go.
I mean, I think you'll see justa proliferation of creation.
(10:25):
I think that the number ofcreators engaging with crypto
art is still so small andminuscule that creating on the
blockchain and expressing someof those ideals of crypto art
will become increasinglyubiquitous and so much more
surface area, uh, expressed, uhover time.
(10:49):
But you know, I think, outsideof that, what we could take it
to a sort of a marketperspective or a traditional art
collector uh adoptionperspective.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
But those are the first couple things that come to
mind there yeah, you know, Ikind of agree with you on the
timeline as far as extending itout a little bit, just because,
like in crypto itself, it'staking so long for what people
thought would happen potentiallysooner because of the
(11:20):
technology that it is.
But you know we're looking atlike 14 years that bitcoin's
been around now somewhere inthere and we're still barely
scratching the surface of peoplelike what is cryptocurrency?
Is it a scam?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
still type of thing yeah, and I mean, how do you
separate crypto art fromgenerative art, from other forms
of art on the blockchain?
Or when you say crypto art foryou, is that everything?
(12:00):
Nft.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, I would say it would encompass all art forms
that are on the blockchain.
I mean, I definitely could seemaybe generative art potentially
.
I don't know.
I don't know if it's easier tograsp, but there's something
tangible to the fact that allthe code is on the chain and you
(12:24):
can produce that image anywhere, as long as you got the chain.
There's something to that Idefinitely agree, which is
different than like, yeah, goahead.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
What's your view on Xcopy?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Are you an Xcopy?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
collector.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
I mean I have a couple of his pieces.
I don't have any one of ones.
I have some additions, I okay,so I'm not a hype guy, I don't
buy the trends and yeah, also xcopy I would look at as more of
an investment.
Not like that.
(13:04):
I like the art, like I, I andeven at that point I would say
the multiples of return on an xcopy are probably not worth what
you would buy a one-on-one for,because sure, in reality, and
especially people that arebuying x copies are buying it in
(13:25):
eth and they want to sell it ineth.
Are you going to get thatmultiple return putting like 250
eth into a one of one versuslike if they priced it in usd?
Yeah, so I, I don't see theupside to an X copy myself.
Sure.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, when are you seeing and now I'm flipping the
tables here where I hope that'sokay, yeah, I love it when are
you seeing opportunity in thiscurrent market, Like, where do
you see there's maybe a multipleopportunity over here or over
(14:07):
there, or do you?
Is that not part of your, yourmental model for collecting and
you're buying stuff that you,you love and you want to hold
forever?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Well, okay.
So there's a couple of ways youcould approach this.
There's buying.
You know, if you're looking formultiples, if you want to make
multiples right now, youreasiest bet is to collect on
Rodeo for free.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Oh, interesting yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
That's the bet.
That's the bet Because it'sfree.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
You think some of those that are basically free
might, might ultimately havesome real value yeah interesting
I mean that's pretty much whatx copy was.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
It was dirt cheap.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, not that these people approach
over there what is your approachover there, just to like
collect so broadly?
Oh no, like you're like angelinvesting.
It's like let me just geteverything no or is it like?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
yeah, I won't buy everything like I I have
collected on rodeo and I willonly collect the pieces I think
are good.
I'm not going to collect everyservice, everything, yeah, um,
within the space, I definitelywould say editions over one of
ones If you're looking formultiples to return and if I
(15:37):
want to say, like not to toot myown horn, but Click Create
probably has like the besteditions.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
And they're curated under a theme, so there's some
cohesiveness to it.
Yes, um, so that probably iswhere I would look, not
investment advice, but, yeah,that's what I would say yeah, it
creates the best.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I love what you guys are doing but yeah, that's uh, I
guess how I would approach ityeah, yeah, that that made sense
and I I haven't heard, so I hadcave on from uh I call it rodeo
um on on our podcast earlierand and uh, my thinking on it
(16:23):
has evolved.
I, I thought it was, um, maybenot the the most net positive
for artists to be sharing workin that way, but he
reconstructed my thinking, Ithink.
Enough in that conversationwhere I can see the value prop
for artists in a couple ofdifferent ways.
I hadn't heard your perspectivefrom the collector viewpoint
(16:47):
where, um, where that maybe it'sjust enjoyable and fun.
That's one, but two, theremight actually be a path there
to collecting basically freework from some artists who
really have some escape velocityin.
Maybe it is five years from now.
Right, it's cool.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, and I mean, dang, I was going to touch on
something and now I'm blankingon it.
Um, anyways, yeah, I don't knowwhat I was gonna say it was
there and then it's gone um,yeah, that happens but yeah, I,
I mean I it on that platform,it's oh okay.
I was going to say I don't knowif I necessarily agree with
(17:31):
free art going out there.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So that's the flip side of it.
I think you should cause.
When it's free, it's notnecessarily valued, but what's
interesting is that a lot ofthat stuff on Rodeo Rodeoo,
whatever they call it isrelatively low additions yes,
yes, it is well.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I like the ephemeral element.
Right, it's 24 hours, yeah, andthen you cannot mint it again.
So you're right.
I was looking at, uh, someartists um open c page for rodeo
and most of the edition sizeswere like four.
Yeah, there was like one, therewas like two and then maybe a
12.
And you're right, they're verysmall editions.
(18:15):
If that was X copy in, you know, in 2020 or something, 2018,
like wow, great opportunity.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
So yeah, yeah, it's cool, it's interesting.
Um, yeah, for sure, is thereanything that I switched, it
switching I turned the tablethere.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Hey, I like it.
I like it, it's fun.
We're gonna get to more of thatyou know later.
But switching back back to whatwould you like to see more of
in the crypto art space?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Well, help me out here.
From the artist side or fromthe collector side?
Let's start there.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Well, I mean, you have a unique perspective
because you kind of like bringthem together in a way Sure, as
do you.
But yeah, so I don't, I don'tknow.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, let me, let me see, you know, I think it's a
great, great point, like from myvantage point not not trying to
put on an artist's hat or acollector hat from my vantage
point, not trying to put on anartist's hat or a collector hat
From my vantage point, I thinkthat one of the things I'd like
to see more is long termstewardship and patronage,
(19:41):
meaning that this has almostnothing to do with the so-called
traditional art world notion ofexclusivity.
It has a lot more to do withpartnership and very durable
career building and sustainablecareer building with the right
(20:05):
partners.
And so you know what does that?
I'm talking like reallyabstract terms.
What does that actually mean?
You know?
For example, I think it wouldlook like an artist and an
intermediary, meaning someplatform or gallerist those are
sort of interchangeable in ourworld in some ways and a
(20:26):
collector working together andhaving a relationship that
evolves over many months andultimately many years and
decades, and that there's trustamongst those three parties and
that it's net positive foreveryone across those three uh
(20:46):
three stakeholders in thatrelationship.
They all add value, right, likethe collector is collecting the
artwork, but then they're alsoamplifying for the artist.
So I'd like to see a lot moreof that.
I think it's natural that in avery nascent industry and space
(21:07):
that there is, there's moreswitching.
The switching costs are verylow and everyone is still kind
of sorting it out for themselveswhen do I fit, what does work
for me, what do I need?
So it's natural, I think, thatpeople are sort of experimenting
in those relationships.
(21:28):
It's probably healthyultimately, but I'd like to see
us get to a place where peoplesort of find their people,
meaning artists find the rightpartners to release work,
collectors find the partner, theintermediaries, their partners
that they trust to curateeffectively.
The artists get to know thecollectors directly, who they're
(21:50):
selling work to.
I'd like to see more of thatand I think you know Click
Create is doing important workin that sort of intermediary
role, that connector role.
Proof is trying to do versionsand myself, you know,
individually, I'm trying to doversions and myself, you know,
individually I'm trying to do aversion of that as well.
But I'd like to see those moredurable relationships that are
(22:12):
fundamentally, you know, they'rebuilt on trust.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, uh, more than anything, um, so I'd like to see
that for sure so the next kindof question is kind of your
approach or your thoughts ondoes supply matter and how do
you think additions and one ofones should work together?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Yeah.
So I think the way I'd answerthat is to say that demand
matters more than supply.
Okay, yeah, matters more thansupply, okay, yeah.
And what I mean is that forsomeone like Xcopy, supply
(22:57):
matters very little becausethere's sufficient demand, and
for an emerging artist or maybea so-called mid-tier artist,
supply matters a lot becausethere's there's less demand,
there's sort of medium demandperhaps, or the demand has been
met even at that moment in time,right, um, so I think,
basically, x copy can expand hissupply almost indefinitely and
(23:22):
there will always be demand tomeet that supply.
Most artists, artists, that isnot the case, and the only
difference there is the demand.
So, yeah, it absolutely doesmatter in my view.
Now I think, if we go back tothe rodeo conversation, that is
(23:43):
reconstructing my views onscarcity just a little bit,
because artists are releasingwork almost every day.
In some cases they are alladditions and so you get.
You know, if you aggregated allof those works from an artist,
you'd be adding to their supplyquite quickly, quite quickly.
(24:10):
And I think the question thatis unresolved there so far is
does that additional supply for,in particular, for an emerging
artist, affect maybe theirone-of-one sales over here that
they already have or that theyanticipate having in the future.
I think that's TBD.
We'll sort of.
We'll see how that plays out.
The one thing I think is's TBD.
We'll see how that plays out.
The one thing I think is worthnoting is that something like
(24:31):
Rodeo it exists, the work that'sbeing released there, even if
it ultimately is adding a lot ofsupply for an artist within a
context that might just bediscreet enough from their
addition with click create, orfrom their generative project
(24:54):
with art blocks, or their one ofones on super rare, that thing
over here.
Let's just call it rodeo, butthere's other examples might be
contextual enough and it's in1155, that it doesn't affect
those other collections andtheir other work in the same way
as if you know everything wason their own contract.
(25:16):
They're releasing new editionsevery day, so I think it's
context dependent and demand isreally the vector of of supply
and demand that matters mostright, no, no, that makes sense,
like I I do.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, I don't know the whole additions thing is.
I guess it depends on if peopleget the I want to collect them
all type of thing and want tocollect all those additions
versus like I only want one ofthose or yeah, it all, just yeah
.
Which is back to demand like Ineed the whole set or do I just
need?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
a couple of these which is an interesting thing,
yeah how big are the editionsizes of the click create
releases typically?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
uh, we are at like 110 or so that's a that's a
great size.
Yeah, and those are 721s or1155 they're 1155s yep, yeah,
yep, cool yep what is a piece ofadvice you've been given, or do
you have like kind of like amantra that you kind of run
(26:30):
through your head, that you kindof live by?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
oh, that's a great question.
I didn't prep for this one.
Let's see.
Um, I have a favorite.
One of my favorite quotes okay,is a bruce lee quote oh, um,
which is I might not get itexactly right, but it's time,
it's something to the effect of.
Time means a lot to me, becauseI'm often lost in the journey
(26:59):
of forever developing.
Oh, it's something to thateffect, and what I take away
from that is, or what that meansto me, is that curiosity means
to me, is that curiosity andhaving an open mind and wanting
(27:21):
to learn and listen, learn fromothers mostly are the things I
value most and I try to get asmuch of that in as possible, so
that one has always struck me asa sort of orienting lens for my
worldview in some respects.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, I like that one .
That's really good.
If you could live or moveanywhere, where would you live
and why?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Okay, I like these questions the most.
Um, well, so, um, after Ifinished university, I did this
uh, we call it university inCanada Um, not college.
Um, I did, uh, a solo bicycletrip, a bike tour from Vancouver
(28:12):
, canada, to Mexico.
Oh, wow, and and.
So that in and of itself was agreat journey, but at the end of
that journey, I flew to the bigisland of Hawaii and lived on a
farm picking coffee andclimbing coconut trees and this
(28:32):
bevy of tropical fruits foraround six months, and if I did
not have to be online and oncalls in a time zone that is
respectful of the East Coast, Iwould maybe move to Hawaii
(28:53):
somewhere just to have thatimmersion in nature, ocean,
jungle, hiking.
For me, those are theenvironmental things that make
me most content.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Oh, man, I had no idea.
That's really awesome.
So if you were an animal, whatwould you be and why?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Wow, I think.
I mean maybe this is a cop-out.
I'm curious what your otherguests say, but for me it's like
chimpanzee.
Okay, there's something that'slike human enough about a
(29:43):
chimpanzee, and maybe I'mprojecting, but human enough
about a chimpanzee, but withthis sort of playful bent that I
think more humans probably needand would be well served to
have in their own life.
That the playfulness and theability to sort of navigate
(30:04):
nature with that play is maybethe spirit of an animal that I
think is um is pretty fun yeah,I like that, that's very solid.
What do most of your?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
guests say oh, I guess.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Uh, there's a lot of bird like eagle or some sort of
bird um, oh, you set me up forthe, the perfect punch line,
which would be owl from my prooffolks.
No, let's not go there.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
All right, we won't touch that, but leading into
what is the best thing and thesilliest thing you've spent
money on, oh geez.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Um, man, that's a good question.
I mean, if I'm, this is theworst answer.
But, um, I'm a, I'm aminimalist, and so the I do not
really spend on on things thatwould would ever feel to me like
superfluous or or it's kind ofsilly.
(31:16):
Yeah, that feels so boring andlike stop trying to be like this
stoic minimalist guy, but it's,I think it's true.
And then the thing that I'vespent on that is maybe the most
(31:36):
meaningful are actually thesedifferent art objects that I
have.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So I have these, helena Saron whiskey tumblers,
okay, she handmade that.
She released with us.
Yeah, that's one of my absolutefavorite things that that I
have.
I have this emily she physical,uh work, um, that I absolutely
love.
Um, I have a people physical,like there are these couple
(32:02):
physical art objects, yeah, thatare also charged or imbued with
my relationship with thosepeople or the way it was created
or the way I acquired it.
That, yes, it's like a littlemug or whiskey tumbler, but it
has all of that meaning bakedinto it, right?
So those are, those areprobably my favorite purchases.
(32:25):
Those are both pretty boringanswers.
I'm sure you get some wilderthings said on this.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
No, it's good on this one, it's good.
Um, yeah, to have that likepottery made by alina is pretty
pretty solid, so sick.
Yeah, yeah, this one's gonna behard.
If you could commission a pieceand have two artists collab on
it, which two artists would itbe?
And have two artists collab onit, which two?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
artists, would it be?
Can I put it back to you?
Have you answered this questionbefore?
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I have, but I answer it like differently every time.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
If you okay.
So while I think about it, whowould you choose?
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Oh man, man, today I'm kind of I don't know.
Jeff Frost pops into my headnow, but who would he collab
with?
Because he's a video type, atime-lapse, unique Like that
(33:34):
will do robotic arms withcameras and like make them move
in different ways.
So who would that collab with?
You know, like I wonder if it'dbe interesting to collab that
with some sort of like painting.
So maybe him and like'm justgonna throw out molly mccutchen
(33:57):
because she's been she's with.
She dropped a click rate thismonth and she's on my mind, so
like if he did some sort of timelapse of an art piece, of a big
art piece or something, andlike I think it could be
interesting.
I don't know what it would belike, but it'd be kind of crazy.
Who knows?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I love that.
Okay, great, great collabsuggestion the place, the place
I go is that the obviouscontributor to this
collaboration is ACK.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
And Alpha Centauri, kid Yep.
There's something about hismind, but also his aesthetic,
that I think is such a goodcomplement to a collaborator,
because it's distinct, it'swholly his, and then is also
(34:58):
sort of versatile enough to takeon a few different forms, which
I think is fascinating abouthis body of work and his process
.
So, for example, I'm imagininglike a, an ACK, emily Shi, to go
back to Emily and, like youknow she, she has all of these
(35:19):
sort of textile based Asianinfluenced patterns in her work.
And then like ACK, with hisglitch aesthetic, um, and some
of the sort of floral elementsof what he does.
I think there's somethingpretty cool there.
Um, that's, that's my finalanswer.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
All right, ak, emily she all right, that works, that
works, I like it.
I feel like you kind of threwthis out there already but if
you have and you can, and it wasfor me, the interesting fact
about eu was that you, like dida bike ride and then you lived
(36:00):
in in hawaii and, like, workedon the farm.
But would you like to letothers know about another
interesting fact or just rollwith what we already said?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
I mean, I've had as is true of so many people, I
think, in crypto a bunch ofdifferent lives, and you know
(36:50):
the one that people willsometimes I own, uh, I wish I I
had it behind me, I could go getit.
Uh, if, if you want, uh, isthis beautiful sculpture, um,
made by one of the most renownedseed savers of heirloom rice in
(37:11):
south india, and he gifted methis sculpture that he made with
these heirloom varieties ofrice, oh, wow, which, for their
culture, is deeply important asa way to transmute their history
and their culture into the nextgeneration.
So that whole experience ofbeing immersed in South India
(37:36):
for over a month, in the mostrural parts of that area,
spending time with these farmers, was transformative in a lot of
ways, and so that's maybe lessa fun fact and a little more
color to my background.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, no, that is amazing, I like that answer.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I wish I had it here.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah, you'll have to get it for the next show 100%.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
I'll send you a picture, all right.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
So do you have any questions for me?
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Oh, I have so many questions.
How long can we go?
Let's do it okay.
Um, where do you think we arein in web3 crypto art?
Are we?
Are we sort of resetting in ahealthy way for sort of the next
phase?
Are we in a sort of challengingspot and it's uncertain where
(38:37):
we go from here?
Do you have your own concernsabout the trajectory of things?
How are you feeling about sortof now and what's forthcoming?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
I mean I think it's been a good reset.
We've had a lot of people leave, not that that's a good thing,
but it kind of is a good thingto have people that aren't here
for the right reasons be outno-transcript and it happens
(39:25):
because they're not traders,they're not used to doing these
or getting into the hype andthen losing their money on it.
So that kind of sucks andthat's definitely going to
happen again.
To like everyone.
I mean they lost their shirtson.
A lot of them lost their shirtson like PFP trading and then the
(39:49):
meme coins and whatnot um, andI guess like that concern is
just like hopefully that theyhave learned a lesson that
hasn't ruined them and they'll,you know, just keep on chugging.
You know, part of it is like Ifeel like a lot of artists came
(40:12):
in as artists and thentransitioned to being a trader
instead of making art anymore.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah, which kind of sucks let me ask you about that
like when the um, the meme coinmoment in the summer was kind of
going crazy and a bunch ofartists were like really leaning
in and like posting about theirmeme coin profits and trades
(40:41):
and like on the one hand, Iappreciate that you know being a
full time artist is incrediblychallenging and so like yeah,
fuck, yeah good for you Go findways to ultimately focus more on
(41:01):
your art, of course, but thenthe other sort of less
charitable view of that was likeno focus on your art.
Art don't be like meme cointrading all day.
Like just make art and and showme art.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
I mean I don't know if you had a view on or have a
view on that yeah, I don't knowif I it's the like, it's more
like I've and I felt like thisis like I love your art and I
feel like you stopped and I sureI don't care if people trade
(41:44):
meme coins or pfps or whatever,but you know, I liked your art
and now I haven't seen any of itin like who?
knows how long yeah, and that'sI guess, and maybe that's just
me.
Like dang, I like this artist alot and now I'm like I wish
(42:04):
they made art still, or theystill were making art, or you
know, are they just traders now?
So I don't know.
There's different ways toapproach it and it I'm happy
with.
I want the artists to make themoney, to make money regardless.
However you want to do that, itjust sucks when you have
(42:26):
something that you loved andthen you'd like try to drop it,
which makes me, you knowquestion like how much did you
love it?
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah, sure, how do you think about um, click create
and um and some of the thingswe talked about supply and
demand, but also like choosingartists and and collaborators,
and you get pressure from yourcollectors of click create works
to say, like, stop releasing,focus on the other, the ones you
(42:57):
already released, like from the, the founder platform side?
How do you think about some ofthose things?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
well, I definitely feel.
I mean, as the space grows, Ithink edition sizes are going to
have to grow regardless foreverybody.
If you want to build that, youknow you want to build fans of
your work or your project andyou know, potentially 100
(43:26):
edition size is not enough.
I mean, granted, we're doing itlike every week so people can
join into it, but I still feellike it's still on the small
side.
Um, definitely would like to golarger when demand is there,
but definitely not trying to dothat unless there is demand.
Um, we don't get push from anycollectors anymore.
(43:51):
Initially, when we first did,when we released the sub pass,
our genesis pass, um, we did getlike, hey, you guys are doing
it wrong.
And we're like we told you fromthe get-go this is how we're
running it.
So we're doing what we can andyou know part of it's the market
(44:12):
, but you won't want to be aparticipant in this art project.
You can always sell your pass.
And we told you you didn't haveto have a pass to get the art.
It just guaranteed you the artif you wanted it, yeah.
And then, from the artist side,mean, then we also.
The thing, the good thing is,we don't choose the artists.
(44:37):
The curators do each month, sowe just have to go find curators
for the season and then, liketwo to three months ahead of
time, we start bugging themabout getting making sure they
have their artists lined up andready to go for their month.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, um, yeah, and the the incentive to the curator
is is it economic or is it justthe desire for them to platform
artists that they care?
Speaker 1 (45:04):
about.
It's both um.
So, like our, we give curatorsa 10 cut of the drop, um, but
many, many don't take it.
They just give it to the artist, um, but it is there for those
that you know would like to takeit for, because it does take
work to organize this group andget this art made.
(45:25):
Um, but sorry, what was therest of that question?
Speaker 2 (45:34):
I'm like oh, just you know.
I was just curious about theincentives for the curator, but
that that totally made sense,mostly about just getting to
play that role of platformingthe artist yeah, they get the
platform, the artist.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
They get to choose a rising star.
Um, they also get, you know, acertain amount of additions from
each artist that month.
Um, yeah, so they get free art.
They can do whatever they wantwith it, yeah um, yeah, but yeah
, that's part um and it's everyweek yes, once a week, and I
(46:13):
mean part of what goes into thatis there's a curator video that
he talked they, he or she talksabout the artists.
There's yeah, this art releasevideos.
There's the artist videos.
So there's a lot of contentabout around each of the the
artists that drops with us.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Yeah, that's great.
Okay, I have one last question.
Let's do it.
What's the deal with thebiscuits?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
So during the pandemic I don't know who did it
first, probably my sister madebiscuits and then, like I don't
know if it was that same weekendor the next week, my mom did it
, made biscuits, but they werejust making drop biscuits.
And then I was like I can makebiscuits too, so I made rolled
(47:07):
and cut biscuits and then Iloved them so much, I just kept
on doing it every week, everyweek and just like made tweaks
to the recipe and I also makethem.
They're like small biscuits,they're like inch and a half,
two inches across, and so, yeah,that was it.
And then I just, it just wasfunny.
(47:28):
I thought it was funny and Iwas like I'll just post about it
on Twitter and so it's just afunny thing that I enjoy and and
now, you know, occasionallywe'll do biscuit breakfasts at
like an event, where I'll makethe best biscuits and then like
tater tots and uh eggs and justinvite people over to have
breakfast.
So it's been fun.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
Hell yeah, Hell yeah, Hell yeah.
It's great man.
Well, it's awesome to join youand excited for everything you
guys are doing at ClickCreate.
Man.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Thanks, man.
Do you have any projects you'reworking on that you'd like to?
Tell us about.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
I would just say go to my Twitter.
Every week we're doing ourVaulted podcast, yep, and I'm
not sure when this will come out, but A couple of weeks Every
week we have, yeah, yeah, everyweek we have some great, great
guests.
You know, I really like thatshow because at the tail end of
(48:29):
each episode we do, uh, what Icall like what's in your vault,
and so we go into both of theguests vaults and, um, we let
them share a piece.
It's so infrequently a highvalue piece.
It's.
It's much more like you knowwhat, what was an NFT?
(48:49):
That was like impactful in yourcollecting journey, and the
stories that come out of thosemoments are pretty special.
So it's fun to be able to slowdown a little bit in that
respect, get rid of thefinancial element entirely in
that section of the show andjust hear these great stories
about why people fell in lovewith collecting.
(49:11):
Yeah, so, yeah, we, we sharethose episodes, uh, every
thursday nice, I love that.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
No, I do like that part.
Uh, I think I've watched two ofthem so far and yeah, that's it
that's such a good uh additionto the show just to be able to
see what people like and and thepersonal touch to it.
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Well, cool man Eli, I just want to say cool.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show Spring some time with
me.
I loved it.
Uh, I loved getting grilledwith some questions too, cause
that was really fun, and withsome questions too, because that
was really fun and thanks,thank you again.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
My honor man, so great, thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Outro Music.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!