October 19, 2023 • 40 mins
In this episode Tim and Roxanne celebrate 10 years of the influential book “Not By Chance.” They discuss the initial struggles of publishing the book and why they did it in the first place.
Ever wondered how a book could redefine an entire field? “Not By Chance” did just that. Discover how it transformed teen treatment by reinstating parents as the primary focus, shifting from program-centric to family-centric approaches. You'll hear about one impactful parent, how the book helped families transition, and why it’s been dubbed the "transition Bible". This book has even influenced the language used in treatment programs and contributed to a better understanding of transition.
Lastly, we want to take a moment to express our heartfelt gratitude. To all the parents who embraced "Not by Chance" and its approach to intentional parenting - thank you. You are the pivotal force behind the book's success and your commitment to intentional parenting has brought about lasting positive changes in your homes. Whether you're a longtime reader or just discovering “Not By Chance” now, join us for this celebratory episode as we reflect on a decade of transformation and inspiration.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim (00:04):
There are as many ways to parent as there are parents in
this world, but there is one wayto parent that wins every time,
and that's doing itintentionally.
This show is about helpingthings go right before they can
go wrong.
Each episode is chosen to helpparents like you who may be
overwhelmed or uninspired,bringing the ideas and
(00:26):
motivation to give their bestefforts to the people and place
that matters the most.
I'm Dr Tim Thane, author of thebook and host of the podcast.
Not by Chance.
I believe that a family'ssuccess and happiness is not by
chance, so welcome to thepodcast.
Built especially forintentional families.
Let's jump in.
Roxanne (00:49):
Well, welcome parents.
This is a very special Not byChance podcast that we're doing
today.
I'm Roxanne Thane.
I am the marketing director forTim Thane and the Not by Chance
program and our new trusty app.
I was also the marketingdirector at Homeward Bound for
14 years.
We're excited today and we'recelebrating.
(01:10):
So, tim, you want to go aheadand celebrate.
Tim (01:14):
Sure, if you can't see that , if it's not on video for you,
that's a real cowbell.
We just rang, so you want totell them why?
Roxanne (01:25):
Well, that used to hang around our cow or milk cow's
neck, and when we changed ourbarn into our offices for work,
we kept that cowbell hanging onthe wall and whenever something
great would happen, we'd get agreat story from a family that
was doing well.
We'd come out and Tim would beringing that bell and everybody
would cheer and it was just alot of fun.
And so today we thought if anyday for our career and the work
(01:47):
that we've done deserves acowbell ring, it's today.
So congratulations.
Tim (01:51):
That's absolutely right.
Yeah, Ten years.
It's amazing really.
Roxanne (01:56):
Ten years since the book Not by Chance how Parents
Boost their Teen Success in anAfter Treatment came out.
And it was November of 2023, or2013.
Tim (02:07):
2013.
We were in San Diego, yeah.
Roxanne (02:11):
We were in San Diego for the Independent Educational
Consultant Association when wefinally got the book and we'd
been working on it for about twoand a half years, and it was so
fun to have a book launch therewith all of our friends and
colleagues in the profession,and so we thought that it would
be a great idea, since that'sthe name of our podcast, to
actually go back and talk aboutthe impact the book has had over
(02:33):
these last 10 years.
So, tim, how do you feel aboutthat, that it's been 10 years?
Tim (02:39):
Well, first it 10 years flies.
It really does.
Yeah, it went very, very quick.
But it's fun to think backabout what's happened in those
10 years, and especially relatedto Not by Chance, and how
pivotal that was.
You know that we wrote thatbook and I say we because I'm
glad you're here on the podcastwith me because you were so
(03:01):
central to that book actuallyhappening, If you remember.
Maybe it'd be fun for theaudience to know.
But every year Roxanne kepttelling me you need to write
this book because when westarted Homeward Bound it was a
big flying leap of faith.
We could see a problem in theadolescent treatment industry.
(03:23):
We could see that there was ahuge need for support after
treatment in the home and family.
So we'd started Homeward Bound,but it was years of trying to
figure it out.
You know how to actually createa model to help improve
outcomes after treatment.
(03:44):
Before I felt like we had ourarms around a little bit, and so
every year Roxanne would sayTim, you need to, you really
need to write the book on thisprocess that we've learned about
and get it out there tofamilies.
And I kept pushing it off.
It was like an onion in thatthere were multiple layers and
you don't know really how manylayers there are until you get
(04:06):
into it, and that was the casewith Homeward Bound and all the
things we were learning.
It felt like we were learningas much from every family we
were going into the home as theywere with us.
And if that's still thelearning curve you're on, you
don't think you're qualified towrite a book, because you're
learning, you know from yourclients new things all the time.
(04:28):
Well, finally, I think the thingthat really got us to write it
was you had a dream.
You dreamt that one of our pastemployees, who really didn't
know anything, went out thereand wrote the book before we did
, and you woke up, you know,kind of in a start and was like,
okay, we are going to writethis book.
And so you had this urgency andyou said you know enough, we
(04:57):
are going to write this book.
And you took the role of mykind of waking me up early in
the morning.
I was your whipcracker, you werethe whipcracker and you would
sit and type as I would talk.
You'd ask me questions, I'drespond and it was kind of a
talk your book thing in thebeginning that you captured, you
(05:20):
know, all this information.
And then the other thing is youhad such a great voice yourself
I think it was a blend reallyof your voice and my voice that
came out in this book, and sohow it started was really
interesting and, you know, foryears I would parents, would say
thank you so much for writingthis book.
(05:41):
And I'd have to say you need tothank my wife because she's the
one that cracked the whip andmade it happen.
Roxanne (05:48):
I think, if I might just toot my own horn, it's also
that I was able to remember alot of the stories you had told
me from families you had workedwith or things that had happened
in our own home that you coulduse in the book, and that's
probably one of the best thingsthat I contributed was just the
fun of the stories, which iseverybody's favorite part really
.
Tim (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, the stories were really important.
Roxanne (06:09):
And we also know that it wasn't tell about two years
later that we did the audio bookand you were really resistant
to doing the audio book.
Why was that?
Tim (06:19):
Well, I've never thought that I had the right vocabulary
myself, or, you know, I've gotthe small town Utah accent and I
didn't know how that would goover.
I wanted a professional readerto read it and but the whole
team was against that.
They said no, tim, this is you,you have to be the one to read
this book.
And I finally agreed.
(06:41):
I decided I'd go and give it ashot and maybe just do a few
paragraphs, or maybe as achapter, and see what the
editing of that you know audiowould be.
And afterwards I thought youknow, that's not so bad, let's
go ahead and do it.
And so we did it.
It was a couple of years afterthe book came out that we did
the audio, and that was thatturned out to be a really neat
(07:05):
thing, because over the years,so many people who had read the
book ended up calling in toHomer Bound, and I would often
talk to many of these people andit was always surprising to me
because these were parents thatwere readers of the book and
usually listening to my voiceand they would.
They would call up, they'd hearmy voice and I could
(07:26):
immediately sense that they werefeeling like they were talking
to a star of some type.
You know there's somebodythat's really important to them,
or that they, you know, they,they sets.
Roxanne (07:38):
In some cases they'd say things like I am a fan of
you, you know, or I can'tremember some of the just that
they were getting piece out,yeah, and they would say I need
to talk to you because they hadyour voice in their ear for
hours and hours.
They felt like they knew youalready and that was a fun way
for you to get to interact withparents.
(07:59):
Yeah, it was.
Tim (08:00):
It was really fun and as I look back, actually I've been
listening to the book again inpreparation for the podcast.
I thought I need to listen toit again and see, you know,
what's changed in 10 years, orshould I?
Should I revise this book inall that time?
And so I started listening toit again and, and I have to say
(08:24):
that in my mind now it'sactually more true now and those
principles are more importantnow than they were 10 years ago.
And I think about all thechanges that have happened over
the last 10 years and it's beena rapid change in our, in our
world, and we'll get into someof those things that are are
(08:44):
different now, that have evolved, changed mental health issues
etc.
But it's we're we're workingwith a group right now, a pilot
group of parents, in our firsttrustee parent coaching process
that we're piloting right nowand I'm you know we're coming up
(09:05):
the curriculum as we go and alot of it is curriculum we've
developed over over time withHomeward Bound.
But I'm I'm going back to thebook and seeing how important
the clarity of that message wasand how it was not wishy washy,
it was practical, it was hopeful, it was stated in a way that
(09:29):
made people have confidence notjust hope, but actual confidence
that they could do what it saidto do.
Roxanne (09:36):
You know I was looking at the Amazon reviews and I
realized that we're up to 266reviews and that might not sound
like a lot when you've got abestseller, but for such a niche
audience that's pretty danggood to get people there's.
You know we've sold thousandsand thousands of books but to
get that many people to actuallywrite about it and it's because
parents care about otherparents who have teens that
(09:59):
struggle and you know they wereall five star reviews except for
two, and one of them wasbecause there were 50 pages
missing in the middle of thebook.
So not our fault.
And then the other one was afour star review from someone
who said I loved it, but he justfelt like he was going to give
a four star review anyway.
But one of the most helpfulreviews.
I think this was voted the mosthelpful.
(10:19):
I just want to read thatbecause it really, I think, also
shouts out the other greatbooks that have been written in
our field.
But it also talks about theimportant place that not by
chance holds.
And he said my wife and I havereligiously followed the
instruction of our child'stherapist and have read all the
books assigned.
As we have read each book, thematerials keep getting better.
This is the best one so far.
(10:40):
I call it the capstone bookbecause it fits as the last book
of a series of books that allparents need to read.
If a child has gone totreatment, either wilderness
residential center or boardingschool or both, your child
cannot come home.
Until you have read these booksand have done the hard work to
change Books I recommend inorder Night in rusty armor,
anatomy of peace, journey of theheroic parent, parallel process
(11:04):
, leadership and self-deception,not by chance.
And yes, you should read themall.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.
Tim (11:13):
Yeah, his review was by far the most useful to other people
looking at buying the book andI think he lists all these books
are very pertinent to thatniche of parent and he
understood the importance ofthis transition book that was
(11:37):
talking about what happens aftertreatment and so until not by
chance came out, there reallywasn't anything in that category
.
Roxanne (11:48):
You know, as we were finishing out last year 2022, we
started to talk about wow, it'sgoing to be 10 years next year.
Should we redo the book?
I mean, I'm always wanting anew cover, like let's spruce it
up or do something fun.
And so we got an editor, westarted to work through it and
read through it, but telleverybody why we decided not to
do a revision.
Tim (12:10):
Well, first of all, you know, I think that I think the
main reason was is that, yes,there were a lot of things we
could mention, like you know,the increase of depression and
anxiety since then.
How the world had changed, howthe world had really changed,
you know, and that we couldmention all those things, but
the reality is, the principlesin the book are still the same,
(12:33):
even though there's been allthis change.
The principles are actuallywhat's needed more now than ever
to be applied, and so Ihonestly didn't want to lose the
straightforward, hopefulness,you know, just very clear
message that we had in, not bychance, and it was this
(12:54):
unapologetic you can do this.
This is exactly what to do.
Is it really a kind of ablueprint?
And it's still the sameblueprint that we would
encourage parents to read, and,in fact, we hope to write
another book that's going to bemore for a general audience.
That is that same tone thatgives parents that during a time
(13:15):
.
I think that's there's a lot ofchallenges out there.
Roxanne (13:20):
You know, one of my favorite books of all time is
called Gift from the Sea byAnne-Marie Olinberg, and I have
read that book so many times andit was written in the 50s I
believe.
I think it was the mid 50s andthe same thing.
It just keeps getting anotherprinting, another printing, with
no revision, because it's sucha timeless book.
It's timeless principles,especially for American women.
(13:42):
But I think the same holds truefor parents of teens who
struggle.
The emotions are the same, thefears are the same, and to have
the kind of help that, not bychance, gave parents by placing
them in a leadership role intheir home and their family and
saying you can absolutely dothis and nobody else can do it
for you was what was most needed.
(14:03):
That to be intentional, not togive up, not to think that you
didn't have it in you, that allyou could do is love your kid.
You could love them and alsoparent them in ways that we're
going to help them be successfulafter treatment.
Tim (14:18):
You know, I've often thought about my upbringing and
thought about my grandpa becauseI was compared to him so much.
He was a tough love more toughthan love probably kind of guy.
But it was old fashioned kindof parenting for him.
It got a little better.
(14:38):
It definitely got better withmy parents and then over time we
learned a lot.
But I almost feel, like some ofthose older principles, that we
sometimes confuse the issues.
We confuse things by in someways being so delicate and
careful with, you know, a kidwho's struggling, when we need
(15:03):
to expect more of them.
So it's like the opposite ofwhat the trends of the world are
saying to do.
It's like, oh, let's softeneverything for them so they can
handle this better, instead of alittle bit of old school stuff
and I wouldn't say the book, notby chance, is old school.
I think it's really a researchbased set of principles that's
(15:26):
couched in stories that enableyou to visualize actually what's
going on between parents andteens and you can see yourself
in it, you can see your child init and it almost gives
permission for things that seemoutdated now.
And I've seen.
I saw the same thing as westarted our pilot group for
(15:48):
these parents.
One of the a couple of theprinciples that we talk about in
the book and have taughtfamilies, you know, from the
beginning of Homeward Bound, wasthat their parents need to step
up and be leaders and they needto be at the top of the
hierarchy, and I've talked aboutthat in this podcast as well.
But it's it's like and Inoticed we had them review these
(16:10):
, these groups, and give usscores and and all of that on
the topics, and I noticed thosetopics were at the top of the
reviews.
It's almost like, oh good,somebody's saying something that
makes sense, you know, insteadof instead of hey, your, your
kid has feelings and you need to, you know, you know, be almost,
(16:32):
almost equals with them.
There's just dancing aroundthat, that whole concept.
Roxanne (16:38):
You know it's funny.
Just the other day we were kindof going through all the past
podcast episodes and the onethat has the most downloads is
called this is your boundary,and it's in all caps, this, and
I thought isn't that interesting?
Parents are saying what, whatshould we do?
Because we have been trained tobe softer and and more equal
(16:59):
and it is wonderful how theworld has changed.
But I think the pendulum hasswung a little too far to where
there's some kids that arewreaking havoc in their homes
because the parents are scaredto take over and.
Tim (17:12):
Yeah, they need leaders, they still need leaders, and
parents need permission to bethe leaders, and I think that's
why I didn't want to.
I didn't want to update thephilosophy, because the
philosophy of not by chance isneeded more than ever.
Roxanne (17:30):
Well, so how has the world changed in 10 years?
Though I mean what, what dothese things address, Because I
think a lot of people are goingto think, wow, 2013,.
Does this still fit for us?
What's changed in those 10years?
Tim (17:45):
Boy.
All of us could look back inthe last 10 years and say the
greatest amount of change hasbeen the last five years really,
and during that time we hadCOVID and and all that came with
that the, the going home andthe online school and actually
the online therapy that reallytook off, where we started
(18:05):
getting more and morecomfortable with video therapy,
tele therapy, things like that.
But in the middle of all that,what has happened is there's
been an increase in almost allmental health challenges, like
anxiety and depression,substance use, addiction.
Other new addictions have comein even more, like gaming and
(18:25):
things like that school refusal,you know sort of this.
The other thing that shocks methat that's happened a lot just
in the recent years has been alot more hospitalizations, like
parents would call, and thestory seemed to be always the
same a spiraling down in themental health.
You know, the isolation, thesocial anxiety, the kind of
(18:49):
pulling back and pulling in andgetting online and and getting
to a point where the depressionand anxiety was so great that
self harm took place.
Suicide ideation was a bigtrigger that led to a
hospitalization, or it was asuicide attempt led to a
hospitalization and then it wasokay, now what?
(19:10):
And so these parents werecalling with that story over and
over and over again, and beforethat wasn't really the case.
So it tells me that whilethere's been more probably more
medication prescribed than everbefore in the last 10 years
there's been more therapysessions, whether it be tele
therapy or in person all of thathas not stemmed the tide on
(19:34):
these mental health challenges.
It's continued to get worse,and so we need we need some,
some new medicine, some newthings here, and I think the new
is really more of the goingback to solid ground.
Roxanne (19:51):
So talk a little bit about the response that you've
had to the book over the 10years.
Tim (19:56):
So, if you remember, after the launch there in San Diego at
the IECA conference and afterthat we sent out, I think, like
five books to every for like 50treatment programs, adolescent
treatment programs to theirclinical director, their therapy
team and all of that.
And we're thinking, okay, thesetherapists will read the book
(20:17):
and they're going to say, oh,this is going to be good for our
parents.
Let's recommend the book.
Well, what happened is theystuck, stuck it on the shelf and
didn't give it to any parent.
Well, one day this is probablytwo or three months later we're.
We're thinking, well, maybe thebook wasn't that good.
We didn't really get hardly anyresponse about the book.
But we we get this call from atreatment program and and he's
(20:41):
ordering a couple hundred books,and I'm like, wow, what's
causing you?
Did you read the book?
And he's like, no, I haven'tread the book yet.
But one of our parents did sothis parent son had graduated
from the treatment program acouple of months beforehand then
called the program and said thewheels are coming off, it's not
going well and all the programcould think to do was well, just
(21:06):
, here's a book.
These guys work with familiesafter treatment.
Maybe this book can help you.
Well, she devoured the book very, very quickly and within two or
three or four days she calledthe program back up again and
said every parent needs a copyof this book.
And she was pretty influentialwith the program because they
(21:27):
actually later had her startcoming to their parent workshops
every six months or so and sheget up and tell everybody, read
this book.
And I had the privilege acouple years later to go to the
same parent workshop with herand I met her.
So she's in my mind she is thefirst one to really understand
(21:48):
what was in that book andappreciate it.
And I took a picture with herbecause she had her original
copy of Not by Chance and it wasfilled with sticky notes and it
was like veed out because shehad so many sticky notes stuck
in there.
And so her visual.
She'd hold it up to everybodyand say, look, this is how
(22:08):
important this book is, look atall these sticky notes I've
taken.
So that was the beginning ofstarting to believe okay, we
have created something that'sactually really helping parents,
and I'd often be.
After that I was asked to comeand speak at treatment programs
and parent workshops and overtime a lot of the families had
(22:29):
read the book, and so when I'dcome, they would treat me like I
was, you know, a famous person,important person.
They'd want me to sign theirbook, and that was always so odd
to me because I was just aregular guy, but I just happened
to have spent a lot of time inan area that mattered to them,
and so when I put it in writing,it was exactly what they wanted
(22:53):
to hear.
And probably the thing thatshocked me the most is when I
started to hear that some of theparents were calling it the
transition Bible from treatmentto home.
And this is your blueprint onhow to do it.
Very humbling and as I thinkabout how did we get there with?
Not by Chance, you know.
How did such a helpful bookactually come to be?
(23:16):
And it wasn't just me, it was.
We had an amazing team ofcoaches that were as passionate
about this, you know creating abetter way to transition, help
kids transition from a highlystructured treatment program to
home.
We had this mission.
We were driven by a mission togreatly improve outcomes after
(23:38):
treatment.
The philosophy we had is we'regoing to put everything in the
book that we think might help aparent and not hold anything
back.
Just, you know, if they saw itas a blueprint for transition
and they could take the book andactually just follow the book
and be successful, that's whatwe wanted to have happen.
So I think it was ourphilosophy, it was these amazing
(23:59):
coaches, amazing families we'dlearned so much from over time,
the stories that we're able tobring in, that was so relatable
to so many families and that itjust made sense and they thought
they could.
They felt like, yeah, that'ssomething I can do.
Roxanne (24:16):
So talk, talk to me for a minute about what this is
actually done for the field ofteen treatment.
Tim (24:22):
So so some things started to happen and change after the
book came out.
Before before we wrote the book, I remember feeling a little
bit like we were fighting anuphill battle to change the
change, the focus from you knowa program, kind of feeling like
you send your child to theprogram, we, we do all this work
(24:44):
and kind of maybe do a littlebit of work with the family, but
ultimately we're going to sendthe child back home again and
and it should work out.
And so there was a lot ofemphasis on what the treatment
program did, and what the bookdid was, instead of just leaving
the parent as a bystanderwaiting for their child to
(25:04):
improve and then come home andpick it up, it was this shift
that happened with we are.
We need to have the parentsengaged in the process at a
deeper level.
They need to be making progressall along the way and that they
can create the context for themto come home and have better
success.
And so it it sort of broughtthe family back into focus as
(25:29):
the, as the focus of treatment,not just the teen themselves.
That's definitely one of thebig things that started to
change there.
Not that there weren't otherprograms doing some parent work
before that, but this sort ofput it on par with the family
work, on par with the individualwork happening for the teen.
(25:50):
Another thing that we saw atHomer Bound after we'd worked
with a few families, we startedto see that there was a pattern
that was happening and it was.
It was predictable.
At first it was like we had noidea how long that this
transitional process wouldunfold, but over time we we
started to see that there wassome predictable kind of phases
(26:12):
to transitioning home, and thefirst one was the excitement
phase.
You know, before they come homethere was some transitional
things happening in the program.
There was another one when theyfirst came home and it's called
the honeymoon phase.
And then we saw the testingphase always happened, whether
it was a small testing thatwould happen or a much larger
(26:33):
testing.
We started to see that was anormal and natural process
instead of oh no, treatmentdidn't work, here we go.
And so by putting it down, as wehad a diagram in the book about
these, these phases oftransition and them seeing the
testing phase, what it did wasnormalize that for parents and
(26:57):
and that helped a lot it helpedprograms to say to themselves
and to their families.
Oh, I guess you know it's notall on us.
There's still this this wholeprocess is going to keep going
even after our treatment processends, and so there's a need for
a process to help that happen.
And so I'd say that that thathelped everybody just calm down
(27:21):
about what's normal to havehappen, and I used to love to
tell parents so when you getinto the testing phase and it's
getting tough, know that you'reright on track, you're right
where you need to be and it'sgoing to happen.
You can feel good about that.
I think the book also took thisstigma that many parents who
(27:45):
have teens in treatment wherethey start to think that maybe
they're a bad parent.
It really changed that becausewe never saw them that way.
We saw them as some of the verybest parents on planet Earth.
But they had a tricky andchallenging job that in many
cases was a chronic stressor foryears and years and years,
(28:05):
since their child was very young, and in other cases it just hit
them like a train, you know,and they didn't know what to do
because what they'd done beforethat had worked, and so having a
book like that just reallynormalized it for them and
helped them realize that they'renot a bad parent.
They're a good parent.
That just needed some extrasupport.
Roxanne (28:27):
You know, another thing that I feel is really wonderful
about how this book hasaffected the field is that we're
no longer the lone voice Sayingthat transition needs to have
attention.
It's been fun to hear peopletalking in different treatment
programs about home teams andRemembering back in the day when
you and I were trying to comeup with a name for the home team
(28:48):
, which is this support networkaround each family, and people
talk about it like that's justwhat it is.
We're like, yeah, but we sat inour office and and played with
those words, trying to figureout what would make Sense, what
would feel warm, what would feellike they were cheering you on.
Well, the home team would.
So it's fun to see those kindsof things come about and there
are so many good books that havebeen written now and treatment
(29:08):
programs all have Some kind ofplan for transition, because
parents have been educated andthey come in from day one saying
, what's your transition plan?
We had a child in treatment andwe went in the first day and
said transition and they justgot these big eyes and we're
like, oh no, how did we pick aprogram that didn't have a plan
for transition?
And we were grateful that wehad one, that we knew what to do
(29:31):
.
But it's just very gratifying,I'd say, to see how everybody
understands that now and theyare doing great work to make
sure that their families havethat support absolutely it.
Tim (29:45):
Nothing's kind of funner and more affirming then when
people just start using thingsthat you had said in your book
and now it's just normallanguage that everybody is using
and and that tells you thatyour idea has taken root.
It was a great feeling andpeople have adopted it and Built
(30:07):
on it and made it intosomething really, really
important in the field.
Roxanne (30:11):
You're right, so let's just talk.
Is you know we wrap this up?
What?
What's do you see in the future?
How are you going to continuethis mission with the not by
chance book is?
Is it going to continue to growor is it just going to stay as
it is?
Tim (30:27):
The not by chance was just, even though it was vitally
important To to a homeward boundand to be able to get the word
out and things that we weredoing out there.
It's just part of a biggermission that we have, which is
to strengthen families reallyaround the world and to give
them these principles and andthat seed was planted a long,
long time ago in the very firstpart of homeward bound, probably
(30:49):
now 18, 19 years ago, in thehome of a family down in Florida
that, after a three-day visitwhere I was teaching these
principles and helping thischildhood come back from
wilderness, reintegrate backinto the home and set up the
family structure and help theparents start communicating with
each other and getting on thesame page and all the things
(31:11):
that not by chance talks about.
The father seen it as a.
He said, first of all, if Iwould have known about you
before this, we wouldn't havehad to do wilderness.
In his mind he thought it wasthat transformative to him but
he followed that up with and hewas a business minded person and
in his mind he's like Everyfamily that I know of, needs
(31:37):
this, what we just received,even even families that don't
have a kid coming back fromtreatment, and so as he took me
back to the airport to fly backto Utah from Florida, he just
kept pointing out all the littlecommunities on each side of the
road and he'd say, tim, everyone of those homes that you can
see out there, they need whatyou have given me.
How are you going to get it tothem?
(32:00):
Well, so that little seed wasplanted a long, long time ago
and it's been in the back of ourmind.
I think that's why we, in ourmission statement, we talk about
the world's families and Ialways thought that I'd cringe a
little bit to say that, thatI'd cringe a little bit to say
that, that we'd Think that wecould somehow, you know, reach
that kind of number of familiesout there.
(32:22):
But that's, that's kind ofsprouted and grown.
It's like having a vision board.
You put the picture up on yourwall and you look at that thing
or that, that particular visionyou have, and over time you, lo
and behold, you end up gettingthat vision and I think that's
where we're headed now.
So for the last year we've beenworking on the trusty app.
(32:44):
It's.
It's basically taking theprinciples from not by chance
and homeward bound and andfacilitating it through
technology.
We have recognized that when achild really struggles in a
family, one of the ways you knowthat's happening is that as a
(33:05):
parent, you don't feel as muchtrust.
You don't feel confident intheir judgment or you don't feel
confident in their commitmentor they're they're just their
ability to step up in that waytheir integrity, and whether it
be depression and anxiety, whichfeels like a mental health
thing and it's not behavioral,but still your trust is
(33:30):
diminished because of thestruggles around those mental
health issues.
So really across the board, nomatter what it is, trust is
affected.
So we thought that really isthe core thing.
It's not about transitioning akid from treatment to home and
all those principles, but it'sreally about the trust between
parent and child and betweenparent and parent In order to
(33:54):
have that family function in away that they can raise these
kids from Childhood to adulthoodin a very complicated world.
So the app is on its way.
We're into it About seven, eightmonths now that we've been
developing it pretty hard.
We're about ready to launch ourbeta testing.
(34:14):
We just can't wait to get realusers on it.
I was working in in a home of afamily recently and had them
download just the first part ofthe app and, just by nature of
having a real life situation, itfelt like we were.
We were, you know, practicingwith real ammo now, not not just
you know blanks or anything,and and immediately some of the
(34:35):
weaknesses of the app In my mindbecame apparent.
And so that's the phase where,at right now, is getting real
people to give us feedback onthe app.
That, uh, but we're totallyexcited it's, it's probably
going to be fully out here inthe next month or so.
So, if you're interested, andone of the first things we're
going to do is We've taken apiece of the trustee app and
(34:57):
created a little web app that'sall about measuring trust
between a parent and a teenagerand having both parents
potentially do that measurementso they can see are they both
Seeing, seeing that child in thesame way?
Do they have a different senseof trust between them?
And then giving them a reporton that so that they can take
(35:19):
action and, uh, begin to improvetrust In areas that that are
very specific, so families canjust go to trustee with two y's
calm and find that assessment,that trust assessment that they
can take there.
Roxanne (35:36):
Is that correct?
Tim (35:37):
Yes, it'll be there.
We'll also probably have aspecific website that we'll have
later on, but but it will be onour homepage, on the trusteecom
website and, by the way, it'sfree, so there's no charge for
that.
We we think you get a hugeamount of value just by going in
there and taking thatassessment and it'll give you a
lot of ideas of what you need todo to improve the trust and,
(36:01):
and ultimately, all the contentand the not by chance book
honestly could be used to helpyou build trust.
It's, the principles are goingto be the same, and the benefit
of the app is that it is it isbecause of technology.
It is going to be almost like athird parent or a parent coach
(36:24):
that never gets triggered, neverforgets, doesn't pile on new
consequences on top of oldconsequences because of emotions
All of these things that wetend to do as parents.
The app will help us improveourselves as parents.
Roxanne (36:42):
And all for the price of less than a pizza.
Tim (36:46):
That's right.
Roxanne (36:46):
Well, that's free.
There's a big chunk of itthat's free, yeah.
And so that's pretty excitingto know that we can do that and
that's how it's going to reachthe world.
Tim (36:53):
That's right.
Roxanne (36:54):
That was one of the things that has always been hard
for us is when we would talk tofamilies that couldn't afford
our services and we had nothingmore than the book and the
podcast.
Now we have a tool that theycan actually use that will help
them be a better parent.
It will call them on theirthings, it will keep what needs
to be in front of them, in frontof them at all times, and
(37:14):
they'll be able to track howtheir child is improving in
their health.
Tim (37:18):
Yes, it is so exciting.
I mean, this is a vision that'sbeen around a long time and
it's coming to fruition rightnow, and it's just so exciting.
So I hope you'll take thetrustee or the trust score, the
trust evaluation, and thenyou'll be one of the first users
that will invite to the appwhen it's ready.
(37:40):
After the beta testing, we'llsend you out notice that it's
ready.
You can go download it for free, as Roxanne said, and we hope,
very early in the first quarterof next year, to have all of
that connected to parentalcontrols of apps and of the cell
phone et cetera.
That's kind of the next level,the thing that we're realizing.
(38:04):
One of the big changes that hashappened in the world over the
last 15 years has been the cellphone and the apps and the
access to information, and thisis a very novel approach to
parental controls.
It's not just you locking itdown or you as a parent having
(38:27):
to monitor and then take awaythe phone if it's overused or
used in the wrong way.
We want to make it so that itplays the bad cop role for you.
So it'll just shut down the app, it'll just stop the control
and then, when they get theirchores done, and when the trust
score is high enough and thingsare on track, then it will allow
(38:49):
access to some of those thingsthat you've decided.
So, ultimately, as a parent,you're going to have the
ultimate control over this, butit's going to automate some of
the things that are hard forparents to do.
Roxanne (39:00):
Well, we're very excited about what's happened
and very grateful for all ofthose parents who have read Not
by Chance, participated in theprograms, the programs who have
adopted it as part of theircurriculum.
We just can't thank you enoughfor what you have done and we
have just been so grateful to beeven a small part of it, and
(39:21):
we're excited for the next phaseof what's coming in intentional
parenting.
Tim (39:26):
I agree.
I just have to echo whatRoxanne said.
We're so gratified for all thepeople who have promoted it.
It's really been parent toparent In most cases.
It was parents that actuallypromoted it into their treatment
programs, who then adopted itand made it a core part of their
whole parenting program.
But it really was the parents,kind of this force of nature
(39:51):
that made, Not by Chance, whatit is.
So thank you all for that.
Thanks, Tim Parents.
Your time is valuable and I'mgrateful you spent some of it
with us.
What you're intentionally doingin your home life is inspiring
and unmatched in its importanceand long-term effects.
Ask yourself, what am I goingto do because of what I've
(40:15):
learned today?
There are as many ways to parent as there are parents in
this world, but there is one wayto parent that wins every time,
and that's doing itintentionally.
This show is about helpingthings go right before they can
go wrong.
Each episode is chosen to helpparents like you who may be
overwhelmed or uninspired,bringing the ideas and
(00:26):
motivation to give their bestefforts to the people and place
that matters the most.
I'm Dr Tim Thane, author of thebook and host of the podcast.
Not by Chance.
I believe that a family'ssuccess and happiness is not by
chance, so welcome to thepodcast.
Built especially forintentional families.
Let's jump in.
Roxanne (00:49):
Well, welcome parents.
This is a very special Not byChance podcast that we're doing
today.
I'm Roxanne Thane.
I am the marketing director forTim Thane and the Not by Chance
program and our new trusty app.
I was also the marketingdirector at Homeward Bound for
14 years.
We're excited today and we'recelebrating.
(01:10):
So, tim, you want to go aheadand celebrate.
Tim (01:14):
Sure, if you can't see that , if it's not on video for you,
that's a real cowbell.
We just rang, so you want totell them why?
Roxanne (01:25):
Well, that used to hang around our cow or milk cow's
neck, and when we changed ourbarn into our offices for work,
we kept that cowbell hanging onthe wall and whenever something
great would happen, we'd get agreat story from a family that
was doing well.
We'd come out and Tim would beringing that bell and everybody
would cheer and it was just alot of fun.
And so today we thought if anyday for our career and the work
(01:47):
that we've done deserves acowbell ring, it's today.
So congratulations.
Tim (01:51):
That's absolutely right.
Yeah, Ten years.
It's amazing really.
Roxanne (01:56):
Ten years since the book Not by Chance how Parents
Boost their Teen Success in anAfter Treatment came out.
And it was November of 2023, or2013.
Tim (02:07):
2013.
We were in San Diego, yeah.
Roxanne (02:11):
We were in San Diego for the Independent Educational
Consultant Association when wefinally got the book and we'd
been working on it for about twoand a half years, and it was so
fun to have a book launch therewith all of our friends and
colleagues in the profession,and so we thought that it would
be a great idea, since that'sthe name of our podcast, to
actually go back and talk aboutthe impact the book has had over
(02:33):
these last 10 years.
So, tim, how do you feel aboutthat, that it's been 10 years?
Tim (02:39):
Well, first it 10 years flies.
It really does.
Yeah, it went very, very quick.
But it's fun to think backabout what's happened in those
10 years, and especially relatedto Not by Chance, and how
pivotal that was.
You know that we wrote thatbook and I say we because I'm
glad you're here on the podcastwith me because you were so
(03:01):
central to that book actuallyhappening, If you remember.
Maybe it'd be fun for theaudience to know.
But every year Roxanne kepttelling me you need to write
this book because when westarted Homeward Bound it was a
big flying leap of faith.
We could see a problem in theadolescent treatment industry.
(03:23):
We could see that there was ahuge need for support after
treatment in the home and family.
So we'd started Homeward Bound,but it was years of trying to
figure it out.
You know how to actually createa model to help improve
outcomes after treatment.
(03:44):
Before I felt like we had ourarms around a little bit, and so
every year Roxanne would sayTim, you need to, you really
need to write the book on thisprocess that we've learned about
and get it out there tofamilies.
And I kept pushing it off.
It was like an onion in thatthere were multiple layers and
you don't know really how manylayers there are until you get
(04:06):
into it, and that was the casewith Homeward Bound and all the
things we were learning.
It felt like we were learningas much from every family we
were going into the home as theywere with us.
And if that's still thelearning curve you're on, you
don't think you're qualified towrite a book, because you're
learning, you know from yourclients new things all the time.
(04:28):
Well, finally, I think the thingthat really got us to write it
was you had a dream.
You dreamt that one of our pastemployees, who really didn't
know anything, went out thereand wrote the book before we did
, and you woke up, you know,kind of in a start and was like,
okay, we are going to writethis book.
And so you had this urgency andyou said you know enough, we
(04:57):
are going to write this book.
And you took the role of mykind of waking me up early in
the morning.
I was your whipcracker, you werethe whipcracker and you would
sit and type as I would talk.
You'd ask me questions, I'drespond and it was kind of a
talk your book thing in thebeginning that you captured, you
(05:20):
know, all this information.
And then the other thing is youhad such a great voice yourself
I think it was a blend reallyof your voice and my voice that
came out in this book, and sohow it started was really
interesting and, you know, foryears I would parents, would say
thank you so much for writingthis book.
(05:41):
And I'd have to say you need tothank my wife because she's the
one that cracked the whip andmade it happen.
Roxanne (05:48):
I think, if I might just toot my own horn, it's also
that I was able to remember alot of the stories you had told
me from families you had workedwith or things that had happened
in our own home that you coulduse in the book, and that's
probably one of the best thingsthat I contributed was just the
fun of the stories, which iseverybody's favorite part really
.
Tim (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, the stories were really important.
Roxanne (06:09):
And we also know that it wasn't tell about two years
later that we did the audio bookand you were really resistant
to doing the audio book.
Why was that?
Tim (06:19):
Well, I've never thought that I had the right vocabulary
myself, or, you know, I've gotthe small town Utah accent and I
didn't know how that would goover.
I wanted a professional readerto read it and but the whole
team was against that.
They said no, tim, this is you,you have to be the one to read
this book.
And I finally agreed.
(06:41):
I decided I'd go and give it ashot and maybe just do a few
paragraphs, or maybe as achapter, and see what the
editing of that you know audiowould be.
And afterwards I thought youknow, that's not so bad, let's
go ahead and do it.
And so we did it.
It was a couple of years afterthe book came out that we did
the audio, and that was thatturned out to be a really neat
(07:05):
thing, because over the years,so many people who had read the
book ended up calling in toHomer Bound, and I would often
talk to many of these people andit was always surprising to me
because these were parents thatwere readers of the book and
usually listening to my voiceand they would.
They would call up, they'd hearmy voice and I could
(07:26):
immediately sense that they werefeeling like they were talking
to a star of some type.
You know there's somebodythat's really important to them,
or that they, you know, they,they sets.
Roxanne (07:38):
In some cases they'd say things like I am a fan of
you, you know, or I can'tremember some of the just that
they were getting piece out,yeah, and they would say I need
to talk to you because they hadyour voice in their ear for
hours and hours.
They felt like they knew youalready and that was a fun way
for you to get to interact withparents.
(07:59):
Yeah, it was.
Tim (08:00):
It was really fun and as I look back, actually I've been
listening to the book again inpreparation for the podcast.
I thought I need to listen toit again and see, you know,
what's changed in 10 years, orshould I?
Should I revise this book inall that time?
And so I started listening toit again and, and I have to say
(08:24):
that in my mind now it'sactually more true now and those
principles are more importantnow than they were 10 years ago.
And I think about all thechanges that have happened over
the last 10 years and it's beena rapid change in our, in our
world, and we'll get into someof those things that are are
(08:44):
different now, that have evolved, changed mental health issues
etc.
But it's we're we're workingwith a group right now, a pilot
group of parents, in our firsttrustee parent coaching process
that we're piloting right nowand I'm you know we're coming up
(09:05):
the curriculum as we go and alot of it is curriculum we've
developed over over time withHomeward Bound.
But I'm I'm going back to thebook and seeing how important
the clarity of that message wasand how it was not wishy washy,
it was practical, it was hopeful, it was stated in a way that
(09:29):
made people have confidence notjust hope, but actual confidence
that they could do what it saidto do.
Roxanne (09:36):
You know I was looking at the Amazon reviews and I
realized that we're up to 266reviews and that might not sound
like a lot when you've got abestseller, but for such a niche
audience that's pretty danggood to get people there's.
You know we've sold thousandsand thousands of books but to
get that many people to actuallywrite about it and it's because
parents care about otherparents who have teens that
(09:59):
struggle and you know they wereall five star reviews except for
two, and one of them wasbecause there were 50 pages
missing in the middle of thebook.
So not our fault.
And then the other one was afour star review from someone
who said I loved it, but he justfelt like he was going to give
a four star review anyway.
But one of the most helpfulreviews.
I think this was voted the mosthelpful.
(10:19):
I just want to read thatbecause it really, I think, also
shouts out the other greatbooks that have been written in
our field.
But it also talks about theimportant place that not by
chance holds.
And he said my wife and I havereligiously followed the
instruction of our child'stherapist and have read all the
books assigned.
As we have read each book, thematerials keep getting better.
This is the best one so far.
(10:40):
I call it the capstone bookbecause it fits as the last book
of a series of books that allparents need to read.
If a child has gone totreatment, either wilderness
residential center or boardingschool or both, your child
cannot come home.
Until you have read these booksand have done the hard work to
change Books I recommend inorder Night in rusty armor,
anatomy of peace, journey of theheroic parent, parallel process
(11:04):
, leadership and self-deception,not by chance.
And yes, you should read themall.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.
Tim (11:13):
Yeah, his review was by far the most useful to other people
looking at buying the book andI think he lists all these books
are very pertinent to thatniche of parent and he
understood the importance ofthis transition book that was
(11:37):
talking about what happens aftertreatment and so until not by
chance came out, there reallywasn't anything in that category
.
Roxanne (11:48):
You know, as we were finishing out last year 2022, we
started to talk about wow, it'sgoing to be 10 years next year.
Should we redo the book?
I mean, I'm always wanting anew cover, like let's spruce it
up or do something fun.
And so we got an editor, westarted to work through it and
read through it, but telleverybody why we decided not to
do a revision.
Tim (12:10):
Well, first of all, you know, I think that I think the
main reason was is that, yes,there were a lot of things we
could mention, like you know,the increase of depression and
anxiety since then.
How the world had changed, howthe world had really changed,
you know, and that we couldmention all those things, but
the reality is, the principlesin the book are still the same,
(12:33):
even though there's been allthis change.
The principles are actuallywhat's needed more now than ever
to be applied, and so Ihonestly didn't want to lose the
straightforward, hopefulness,you know, just very clear
message that we had in, not bychance, and it was this
(12:54):
unapologetic you can do this.
This is exactly what to do.
Is it really a kind of ablueprint?
And it's still the sameblueprint that we would
encourage parents to read, and,in fact, we hope to write
another book that's going to bemore for a general audience.
That is that same tone thatgives parents that during a time
(13:15):
.
I think that's there's a lot ofchallenges out there.
Roxanne (13:20):
You know, one of my favorite books of all time is
called Gift from the Sea byAnne-Marie Olinberg, and I have
read that book so many times andit was written in the 50s I
believe.
I think it was the mid 50s andthe same thing.
It just keeps getting anotherprinting, another printing, with
no revision, because it's sucha timeless book.
It's timeless principles,especially for American women.
(13:42):
But I think the same holds truefor parents of teens who
struggle.
The emotions are the same, thefears are the same, and to have
the kind of help that, not bychance, gave parents by placing
them in a leadership role intheir home and their family and
saying you can absolutely dothis and nobody else can do it
for you was what was most needed.
(14:03):
That to be intentional, not togive up, not to think that you
didn't have it in you, that allyou could do is love your kid.
You could love them and alsoparent them in ways that we're
going to help them be successfulafter treatment.
Tim (14:18):
You know, I've often thought about my upbringing and
thought about my grandpa becauseI was compared to him so much.
He was a tough love more toughthan love probably kind of guy.
But it was old fashioned kindof parenting for him.
It got a little better.
(14:38):
It definitely got better withmy parents and then over time we
learned a lot.
But I almost feel, like some ofthose older principles, that we
sometimes confuse the issues.
We confuse things by in someways being so delicate and
careful with, you know, a kidwho's struggling, when we need
(15:03):
to expect more of them.
So it's like the opposite ofwhat the trends of the world are
saying to do.
It's like, oh, let's softeneverything for them so they can
handle this better, instead of alittle bit of old school stuff
and I wouldn't say the book, notby chance, is old school.
I think it's really a researchbased set of principles that's
(15:26):
couched in stories that enableyou to visualize actually what's
going on between parents andteens and you can see yourself
in it, you can see your child init and it almost gives
permission for things that seemoutdated now.
And I've seen.
I saw the same thing as westarted our pilot group for
(15:48):
these parents.
One of the a couple of theprinciples that we talk about in
the book and have taughtfamilies, you know, from the
beginning of Homeward Bound, wasthat their parents need to step
up and be leaders and they needto be at the top of the
hierarchy, and I've talked aboutthat in this podcast as well.
But it's it's like and Inoticed we had them review these
(16:10):
, these groups, and give usscores and and all of that on
the topics, and I noticed thosetopics were at the top of the
reviews.
It's almost like, oh good,somebody's saying something that
makes sense, you know, insteadof instead of hey, your, your
kid has feelings and you need to, you know, you know, be almost,
(16:32):
almost equals with them.
There's just dancing aroundthat, that whole concept.
Roxanne (16:38):
You know it's funny.
Just the other day we were kindof going through all the past
podcast episodes and the onethat has the most downloads is
called this is your boundary,and it's in all caps, this, and
I thought isn't that interesting?
Parents are saying what, whatshould we do?
Because we have been trained tobe softer and and more equal
(16:59):
and it is wonderful how theworld has changed.
But I think the pendulum hasswung a little too far to where
there's some kids that arewreaking havoc in their homes
because the parents are scaredto take over and.
Tim (17:12):
Yeah, they need leaders, they still need leaders, and
parents need permission to bethe leaders, and I think that's
why I didn't want to.
I didn't want to update thephilosophy, because the
philosophy of not by chance isneeded more than ever.
Roxanne (17:30):
Well, so how has the world changed in 10 years?
Though I mean what, what dothese things address, Because I
think a lot of people are goingto think, wow, 2013,.
Does this still fit for us?
What's changed in those 10years?
Tim (17:45):
Boy.
All of us could look back inthe last 10 years and say the
greatest amount of change hasbeen the last five years really,
and during that time we hadCOVID and and all that came with
that the, the going home andthe online school and actually
the online therapy that reallytook off, where we started
(18:05):
getting more and morecomfortable with video therapy,
tele therapy, things like that.
But in the middle of all that,what has happened is there's
been an increase in almost allmental health challenges, like
anxiety and depression,substance use, addiction.
Other new addictions have comein even more, like gaming and
(18:25):
things like that school refusal,you know sort of this.
The other thing that shocks methat that's happened a lot just
in the recent years has been alot more hospitalizations, like
parents would call, and thestory seemed to be always the
same a spiraling down in themental health.
You know, the isolation, thesocial anxiety, the kind of
(18:49):
pulling back and pulling in andgetting online and and getting
to a point where the depressionand anxiety was so great that
self harm took place.
Suicide ideation was a bigtrigger that led to a
hospitalization, or it was asuicide attempt led to a
hospitalization and then it wasokay, now what?
(19:10):
And so these parents werecalling with that story over and
over and over again, and beforethat wasn't really the case.
So it tells me that whilethere's been more probably more
medication prescribed than everbefore in the last 10 years
there's been more therapysessions, whether it be tele
therapy or in person all of thathas not stemmed the tide on
(19:34):
these mental health challenges.
It's continued to get worse,and so we need we need some,
some new medicine, some newthings here, and I think the new
is really more of the goingback to solid ground.
Roxanne (19:51):
So talk a little bit about the response that you've
had to the book over the 10years.
Tim (19:56):
So, if you remember, after the launch there in San Diego at
the IECA conference and afterthat we sent out, I think, like
five books to every for like 50treatment programs, adolescent
treatment programs to theirclinical director, their therapy
team and all of that.
And we're thinking, okay, thesetherapists will read the book
(20:17):
and they're going to say, oh,this is going to be good for our
parents.
Let's recommend the book.
Well, what happened is theystuck, stuck it on the shelf and
didn't give it to any parent.
Well, one day this is probablytwo or three months later we're.
We're thinking, well, maybe thebook wasn't that good.
We didn't really get hardly anyresponse about the book.
But we we get this call from atreatment program and and he's
(20:41):
ordering a couple hundred books,and I'm like, wow, what's
causing you?
Did you read the book?
And he's like, no, I haven'tread the book yet.
But one of our parents did sothis parent son had graduated
from the treatment program acouple of months beforehand then
called the program and said thewheels are coming off, it's not
going well and all the programcould think to do was well, just
(21:06):
, here's a book.
These guys work with familiesafter treatment.
Maybe this book can help you.
Well, she devoured the book very, very quickly and within two or
three or four days she calledthe program back up again and
said every parent needs a copyof this book.
And she was pretty influentialwith the program because they
(21:27):
actually later had her startcoming to their parent workshops
every six months or so and sheget up and tell everybody, read
this book.
And I had the privilege acouple years later to go to the
same parent workshop with herand I met her.
So she's in my mind she is thefirst one to really understand
(21:48):
what was in that book andappreciate it.
And I took a picture with herbecause she had her original
copy of Not by Chance and it wasfilled with sticky notes and it
was like veed out because shehad so many sticky notes stuck
in there.
And so her visual.
She'd hold it up to everybodyand say, look, this is how
(22:08):
important this book is, look atall these sticky notes I've
taken.
So that was the beginning ofstarting to believe okay, we
have created something that'sactually really helping parents,
and I'd often be.
After that I was asked to comeand speak at treatment programs
and parent workshops and overtime a lot of the families had
(22:29):
read the book, and so when I'dcome, they would treat me like I
was, you know, a famous person,important person.
They'd want me to sign theirbook, and that was always so odd
to me because I was just aregular guy, but I just happened
to have spent a lot of time inan area that mattered to them,
and so when I put it in writing,it was exactly what they wanted
(22:53):
to hear.
And probably the thing thatshocked me the most is when I
started to hear that some of theparents were calling it the
transition Bible from treatmentto home.
And this is your blueprint onhow to do it.
Very humbling and as I thinkabout how did we get there with?
Not by Chance, you know.
How did such a helpful bookactually come to be?
(23:16):
And it wasn't just me, it was.
We had an amazing team ofcoaches that were as passionate
about this, you know creating abetter way to transition, help
kids transition from a highlystructured treatment program to
home.
We had this mission.
We were driven by a mission togreatly improve outcomes after
(23:38):
treatment.
The philosophy we had is we'regoing to put everything in the
book that we think might help aparent and not hold anything
back.
Just, you know, if they saw itas a blueprint for transition
and they could take the book andactually just follow the book
and be successful, that's whatwe wanted to have happen.
So I think it was ourphilosophy, it was these amazing
(23:59):
coaches, amazing families we'dlearned so much from over time,
the stories that we're able tobring in, that was so relatable
to so many families and that itjust made sense and they thought
they could.
They felt like, yeah, that'ssomething I can do.
Roxanne (24:16):
So talk, talk to me for a minute about what this is
actually done for the field ofteen treatment.
Tim (24:22):
So so some things started to happen and change after the
book came out.
Before before we wrote the book, I remember feeling a little
bit like we were fighting anuphill battle to change the
change, the focus from you knowa program, kind of feeling like
you send your child to theprogram, we, we do all this work
(24:44):
and kind of maybe do a littlebit of work with the family, but
ultimately we're going to sendthe child back home again and
and it should work out.
And so there was a lot ofemphasis on what the treatment
program did, and what the bookdid was, instead of just leaving
the parent as a bystanderwaiting for their child to
(25:04):
improve and then come home andpick it up, it was this shift
that happened with we are.
We need to have the parentsengaged in the process at a
deeper level.
They need to be making progressall along the way and that they
can create the context for themto come home and have better
success.
And so it it sort of broughtthe family back into focus as
(25:29):
the, as the focus of treatment,not just the teen themselves.
That's definitely one of thebig things that started to
change there.
Not that there weren't otherprograms doing some parent work
before that, but this sort ofput it on par with the family
work, on par with the individualwork happening for the teen.
(25:50):
Another thing that we saw atHomer Bound after we'd worked
with a few families, we startedto see that there was a pattern
that was happening and it was.
It was predictable.
At first it was like we had noidea how long that this
transitional process wouldunfold, but over time we we
started to see that there wassome predictable kind of phases
(26:12):
to transitioning home, and thefirst one was the excitement
phase.
You know, before they come homethere was some transitional
things happening in the program.
There was another one when theyfirst came home and it's called
the honeymoon phase.
And then we saw the testingphase always happened, whether
it was a small testing thatwould happen or a much larger
(26:33):
testing.
We started to see that was anormal and natural process
instead of oh no, treatmentdidn't work, here we go.
And so by putting it down, as wehad a diagram in the book about
these, these phases oftransition and them seeing the
testing phase, what it did wasnormalize that for parents and
(26:57):
and that helped a lot it helpedprograms to say to themselves
and to their families.
Oh, I guess you know it's notall on us.
There's still this this wholeprocess is going to keep going
even after our treatment processends, and so there's a need for
a process to help that happen.
And so I'd say that that thathelped everybody just calm down
(27:21):
about what's normal to havehappen, and I used to love to
tell parents so when you getinto the testing phase and it's
getting tough, know that you'reright on track, you're right
where you need to be and it'sgoing to happen.
You can feel good about that.
I think the book also took thisstigma that many parents who
(27:45):
have teens in treatment wherethey start to think that maybe
they're a bad parent.
It really changed that becausewe never saw them that way.
We saw them as some of the verybest parents on planet Earth.
But they had a tricky andchallenging job that in many
cases was a chronic stressor foryears and years and years,
(28:05):
since their child was very young, and in other cases it just hit
them like a train, you know,and they didn't know what to do
because what they'd done beforethat had worked, and so having a
book like that just reallynormalized it for them and
helped them realize that they'renot a bad parent.
They're a good parent.
That just needed some extrasupport.
Roxanne (28:27):
You know, another thing that I feel is really wonderful
about how this book hasaffected the field is that we're
no longer the lone voice Sayingthat transition needs to have
attention.
It's been fun to hear peopletalking in different treatment
programs about home teams andRemembering back in the day when
you and I were trying to comeup with a name for the home team
(28:48):
, which is this support networkaround each family, and people
talk about it like that's justwhat it is.
We're like, yeah, but we sat inour office and and played with
those words, trying to figureout what would make Sense, what
would feel warm, what would feellike they were cheering you on.
Well, the home team would.
So it's fun to see those kindsof things come about and there
are so many good books that havebeen written now and treatment
(29:08):
programs all have Some kind ofplan for transition, because
parents have been educated andthey come in from day one saying
, what's your transition plan?
We had a child in treatment andwe went in the first day and
said transition and they justgot these big eyes and we're
like, oh no, how did we pick aprogram that didn't have a plan
for transition?
And we were grateful that wehad one, that we knew what to do
(29:31):
.
But it's just very gratifying,I'd say, to see how everybody
understands that now and theyare doing great work to make
sure that their families havethat support absolutely it.
Tim (29:45):
Nothing's kind of funner and more affirming then when
people just start using thingsthat you had said in your book
and now it's just normallanguage that everybody is using
and and that tells you thatyour idea has taken root.
It was a great feeling andpeople have adopted it and Built
(30:07):
on it and made it intosomething really, really
important in the field.
Roxanne (30:11):
You're right, so let's just talk.
Is you know we wrap this up?
What?
What's do you see in the future?
How are you going to continuethis mission with the not by
chance book is?
Is it going to continue to growor is it just going to stay as
it is?
Tim (30:27):
The not by chance was just, even though it was vitally
important To to a homeward boundand to be able to get the word
out and things that we weredoing out there.
It's just part of a biggermission that we have, which is
to strengthen families reallyaround the world and to give
them these principles and andthat seed was planted a long,
long time ago in the very firstpart of homeward bound, probably
(30:49):
now 18, 19 years ago, in thehome of a family down in Florida
that, after a three-day visitwhere I was teaching these
principles and helping thischildhood come back from
wilderness, reintegrate backinto the home and set up the
family structure and help theparents start communicating with
each other and getting on thesame page and all the things
(31:11):
that not by chance talks about.
The father seen it as a.
He said, first of all, if Iwould have known about you
before this, we wouldn't havehad to do wilderness.
In his mind he thought it wasthat transformative to him but
he followed that up with and hewas a business minded person and
in his mind he's like Everyfamily that I know of, needs
(31:37):
this, what we just received,even even families that don't
have a kid coming back fromtreatment, and so as he took me
back to the airport to fly backto Utah from Florida, he just
kept pointing out all the littlecommunities on each side of the
road and he'd say, tim, everyone of those homes that you can
see out there, they need whatyou have given me.
How are you going to get it tothem?
(32:00):
Well, so that little seed wasplanted a long, long time ago
and it's been in the back of ourmind.
I think that's why we, in ourmission statement, we talk about
the world's families and Ialways thought that I'd cringe a
little bit to say that, thatI'd cringe a little bit to say
that, that we'd Think that wecould somehow, you know, reach
that kind of number of familiesout there.
(32:22):
But that's, that's kind ofsprouted and grown.
It's like having a vision board.
You put the picture up on yourwall and you look at that thing
or that, that particular visionyou have, and over time you, lo
and behold, you end up gettingthat vision and I think that's
where we're headed now.
So for the last year we've beenworking on the trusty app.
(32:44):
It's.
It's basically taking theprinciples from not by chance
and homeward bound and andfacilitating it through
technology.
We have recognized that when achild really struggles in a
family, one of the ways you knowthat's happening is that as a
(33:05):
parent, you don't feel as muchtrust.
You don't feel confident intheir judgment or you don't feel
confident in their commitmentor they're they're just their
ability to step up in that waytheir integrity, and whether it
be depression and anxiety, whichfeels like a mental health
thing and it's not behavioral,but still your trust is
(33:30):
diminished because of thestruggles around those mental
health issues.
So really across the board, nomatter what it is, trust is
affected.
So we thought that really isthe core thing.
It's not about transitioning akid from treatment to home and
all those principles, but it'sreally about the trust between
parent and child and betweenparent and parent In order to
(33:54):
have that family function in away that they can raise these
kids from Childhood to adulthoodin a very complicated world.
So the app is on its way.
We're into it About seven, eightmonths now that we've been
developing it pretty hard.
We're about ready to launch ourbeta testing.
(34:14):
We just can't wait to get realusers on it.
I was working in in a home of afamily recently and had them
download just the first part ofthe app and, just by nature of
having a real life situation, itfelt like we were.
We were, you know, practicingwith real ammo now, not not just
you know blanks or anything,and and immediately some of the
(34:35):
weaknesses of the app In my mindbecame apparent.
And so that's the phase where,at right now, is getting real
people to give us feedback onthe app.
That, uh, but we're totallyexcited it's, it's probably
going to be fully out here inthe next month or so.
So, if you're interested, andone of the first things we're
going to do is We've taken apiece of the trustee app and
(34:57):
created a little web app that'sall about measuring trust
between a parent and a teenagerand having both parents
potentially do that measurementso they can see are they both
Seeing, seeing that child in thesame way?
Do they have a different senseof trust between them?
And then giving them a reporton that so that they can take
(35:19):
action and, uh, begin to improvetrust In areas that that are
very specific, so families canjust go to trustee with two y's
calm and find that assessment,that trust assessment that they
can take there.
Roxanne (35:36):
Is that correct?
Tim (35:37):
Yes, it'll be there.
We'll also probably have aspecific website that we'll have
later on, but but it will be onour homepage, on the trusteecom
website and, by the way, it'sfree, so there's no charge for
that.
We we think you get a hugeamount of value just by going in
there and taking thatassessment and it'll give you a
lot of ideas of what you need todo to improve the trust and,
(36:01):
and ultimately, all the contentand the not by chance book
honestly could be used to helpyou build trust.
It's, the principles are goingto be the same, and the benefit
of the app is that it is it isbecause of technology.
It is going to be almost like athird parent or a parent coach
(36:24):
that never gets triggered, neverforgets, doesn't pile on new
consequences on top of oldconsequences because of emotions
All of these things that wetend to do as parents.
The app will help us improveourselves as parents.
Roxanne (36:42):
And all for the price of less than a pizza.
Tim (36:46):
That's right.
Roxanne (36:46):
Well, that's free.
There's a big chunk of itthat's free, yeah.
And so that's pretty excitingto know that we can do that and
that's how it's going to reachthe world.
Tim (36:53):
That's right.
Roxanne (36:54):
That was one of the things that has always been hard
for us is when we would talk tofamilies that couldn't afford
our services and we had nothingmore than the book and the
podcast.
Now we have a tool that theycan actually use that will help
them be a better parent.
It will call them on theirthings, it will keep what needs
to be in front of them, in frontof them at all times, and
(37:14):
they'll be able to track howtheir child is improving in
their health.
Tim (37:18):
Yes, it is so exciting.
I mean, this is a vision that'sbeen around a long time and
it's coming to fruition rightnow, and it's just so exciting.
So I hope you'll take thetrustee or the trust score, the
trust evaluation, and thenyou'll be one of the first users
that will invite to the appwhen it's ready.
(37:40):
After the beta testing, we'llsend you out notice that it's
ready.
You can go download it for free, as Roxanne said, and we hope,
very early in the first quarterof next year, to have all of
that connected to parentalcontrols of apps and of the cell
phone et cetera.
That's kind of the next level,the thing that we're realizing.
(38:04):
One of the big changes that hashappened in the world over the
last 15 years has been the cellphone and the apps and the
access to information, and thisis a very novel approach to
parental controls.
It's not just you locking itdown or you as a parent having
(38:27):
to monitor and then take awaythe phone if it's overused or
used in the wrong way.
We want to make it so that itplays the bad cop role for you.
So it'll just shut down the app, it'll just stop the control
and then, when they get theirchores done, and when the trust
score is high enough and thingsare on track, then it will allow
(38:49):
access to some of those thingsthat you've decided.
So, ultimately, as a parent,you're going to have the
ultimate control over this, butit's going to automate some of
the things that are hard forparents to do.
Roxanne (39:00):
Well, we're very excited about what's happened
and very grateful for all ofthose parents who have read Not
by Chance, participated in theprograms, the programs who have
adopted it as part of theircurriculum.
We just can't thank you enoughfor what you have done and we
have just been so grateful to beeven a small part of it, and
(39:21):
we're excited for the next phaseof what's coming in intentional
parenting.
Tim (39:26):
I agree.
I just have to echo whatRoxanne said.
We're so gratified for all thepeople who have promoted it.
It's really been parent toparent In most cases.
It was parents that actuallypromoted it into their treatment
programs, who then adopted itand made it a core part of their
whole parenting program.
But it really was the parents,kind of this force of nature
(39:51):
that made, Not by Chance, whatit is.
So thank you all for that.
Thanks, Tim Parents.
Your time is valuable and I'mgrateful you spent some of it
with us.
What you're intentionally doingin your home life is inspiring
and unmatched in its importanceand long-term effects.
Ask yourself, what am I goingto do because of what I've
(40:15):
learned today?
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