January 11, 2024 • 29 mins
Ever feel like you're walking a tightrope when it comes to parenting teens? Get ready to transform that precarious walk into a confident stride as Dr. Tim Thane and I explore the art of intentional parenting. Discover how to turn your home into a hub of negotiation savvy, where business smarts meet family hearts, providing a solid foundation for both personal growth and career success.
In a lively discussion with Dr. Thane, we uncover the nuances of co-parenting during the rollercoaster teenage years, offering you a toolkit for setting boundaries that stick. You'll learn how to influence with finesse, fostering a household environment where respect and understanding are the currencies of choice. This episode isn't just about keeping the peace; it's a guide to crafting self-enforcing agreements that honor autonomy and encourage responsibility.
We wrap up with actionable advice on mastering the delicate dance of giving freedom while asserting limits. You'll walk away with strategies to turn conflicts into collaborations and understand the power of truly listening to your teen. This isn't just an episode; it's an invitation to build unshakable bridges across generational divides, equipping you for a lifetime of meaningful connections—both at the dinner table and in the boardroom. Welcome to the family-savvy revolution, where the lessons of the heart elevate the strategies of the mind.
In a lively discussion with Dr. Thane, we uncover the nuances of co-parenting during the rollercoaster teenage years, offering you a toolkit for setting boundaries that stick. You'll learn how to influence with finesse, fostering a household environment where respect and understanding are the currencies of choice. This episode isn't just about keeping the peace; it's a guide to crafting self-enforcing agreements that honor autonomy and encourage responsibility.
We wrap up with actionable advice on mastering the delicate dance of giving freedom while asserting limits. You'll walk away with strategies to turn conflicts into collaborations and understand the power of truly listening to your teen. This isn't just an episode; it's an invitation to build unshakable bridges across generational divides, equipping you for a lifetime of meaningful connections—both at the dinner table and in the boardroom. Welcome to the family-savvy revolution, where the lessons of the heart elevate the strategies of the mind.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
There are as many ways to parent as there are
parents in this world, but thereis one way to parent that wins
every time, and that's doing itintentionally.
This show is about helpingthings go right before they can
go wrong.
Each episode is chosen to helpparents like you who may be
overwhelmed or uninspired,bringing the ideas and
(00:26):
motivation to give their bestefforts to the people and place
that matters the most.
I'm Dr Tim Thane, author of thebook and host of the podcast.
Not by Chance.
I believe that a family'ssuccess and happiness is not by
chance, so welcome to thepodcast.
Built especially forintentional families.
Let's jump in.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Hey everyone and welcome to our throwback episode
.
In our throwback episodes, weare reintroducing you to some of
our most popular episodes.
This is great for new listenerswho want to learn more about
the work we've done in the past,and it's a great refresher if
you've been a listener for along time.
Enjoy, Tim.
Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Hey, thanks Kwame, good to be here.
I'm looking forward to this.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to this too, because
this is going to be a fun one.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah, I think the topic is perfect for parents and
teens.
I mean, it's happening everyday, in every home out there
where there are kids and parents.
This is what's happening.
Especially after I read yourdefinition of negotiation, I
thought, absolutely.
This is happening under everyroof, all the time.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
And for those new listeners, the operational
definition we use fornegotiation is any conversation
where somebody in theconversation wants something.
And when you see that broaddefinition, you realize that
negotiation is everywhere.
And especially if you're aparent, you realize that it's
happening all the time, all thetime.
So how about you tell us a bit?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
about yourself and what you do.
So my background educationallyis marriage and family therapy.
I've got my PhD in that field,but I've always been a little
bit different.
My first.
I've been almost more anentrepreneur, as I have a
therapist.
My first job that I created formyself was actually while I was
(02:19):
a PhD candidate of Virginia Tech, and I took marriage and family
therapy and I wanted to see howthat would apply to business
organizations, and so mydissertation was applying MFT
principles and models to largeorganizations and the
relationships, becauseultimately, it's just a large
(02:41):
human system, just like a familyis a small human system, and it
was an amazing experience.
And so since that time, andbecause I was a bit lucky to be
honest with you, it worked sowell, I didn't realize that half
of it was just great timing,and I didn't realize that pain
in the organization that I wasworking with and consulting
(03:03):
ended up being the reason what Ihad to offer was so accepted,
and so I almost got the wrongimpression.
Because it worked so well, Ijust thought, hey, this is easy,
I'm going to keep innovating,and I found out later in my
career that there's a lot moreto something taking off than
just I had a good idea, butsince that time I've started
(03:26):
treatment programs foradolescents and young adults.
I've, in particular, I starteda wilderness treatment program
here in Utah and that's a uniquesetting where therapy tends to
really move things along quickly.
When you think about mothernature being a co-therapist and
the weather and all the naturalelements being a part of the
(03:48):
milieu of treatment, it has anamazing way to make change
happen very, very quickly.
But then later started a companycalled Homeward Bound because I
saw that these teens could doreally, really well in these
settings.
But the hard part was helpingthem transition all of that gain
into the real world, back intothe complexity of life, into the
(04:12):
old relationships with familyand friends and all of that and
maintain what they gained before.
That's the trick.
So I started Homeward Bound totry and help that happen.
And then since then I'm justabout ready to launch a tech
business which is really aroundthis same thing helping
treatment be more effective longterm.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
That is fantastic.
I really love that, especiallyas somebody with a background in
psychology and an entrepreneur.
You're doing it the right way,so that is great.
And just another fun note Ihave had now you are the second
person who has a background inmarriage and family therapy and
both of you are living in Utah.
How interesting.
(04:54):
Yeah, that's weird, that'scrazy.
That is crazy.
Very cool, and with this topic,it'd be interesting to see.
Maybe, as with the conversationinvolves, maybe we could talk
about some corollaries betweennegotiating with your teen and
negotiating with difficultpeople in the business world too
, because I'm sure when it comesto those difficult
(05:15):
conversations, there'll be somesimilarities.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I think you'll see, yeah, a lot of the principles we
talk about today.
I think that people will beable to look at that and say,
wow, I could take that to work.
In fact, we work with atHomeward Bound.
We work with parents all overthe country and many of them are
in business and they're doingthings every day to interact
with other people and they'renegotiating, and the skills we
(05:39):
teach them in the home for theirfamily tends to be something
they can take right to work andthey tell us that.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Right, oh, I'm excited to get into these
principles.
This is going to be good.
Before we get into theprinciples, let's talk about why
it's so hard.
I think we intuitivelyunderstand that negotiating with
teenagers is going to bedifficult, but I think it would
be great if we could assign somelabels to help the audience
understand what makes it sodifficult.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Well, particularly when you're talking about teens
and keep in context, we'reworking with teens that are
struggling a lot and theteenagers we work with and I
think, every teen honestlythey're always thinking two
steps ahead most of the time.
And parents are not thinkingtwo steps ahead.
You're not aware that they'reout, way out in front of you
(06:32):
when it comes to what they'reactually trying to get, and we
can be kind of caughtflat-footed, honestly, sometimes
as parents, if we're notthinking a little bit like a
teen does.
They're trying to get what theywant.
And the other thing that's sohard, that makes negotiating
with teens hard, is usuallythere's a co -parent in the
picture and if we're not in syncwith one another when we're
(06:58):
working through some issue witha teen and we set some
boundaries and we come toconclusions, if we're not in
sync with our co-parent, thatco-parent might not agree with
what we've created and the planswe've made.
And, in fact, although I alwaystalk about teenagers as kind of
like water, it's like watergoing down a furrow they're
(07:19):
always going to go down the pathof least resistance.
The two leaders in thesituation, the ones that need to
kind of be on the same page,they really have to talk a lot.
They have to be aware of whatthey're trying to achieve
together and they have to seewhere how they can kind of open
the gate so the team doesn'tfeel like they have to break
(07:42):
through the fence.
You know, let's go through theright direction.
I want to get that thing, or Iwant more freedom, or I want you
know something over here.
Let's show them how they canget there legitimately, instead
of how can they break throughthe fence and or go between the
two of us and get what they want.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
This is so cool because the corollaries are
readily apparent here, because alot of times that one of the
mistakes that people make innegotiations is they show up and
that's it and they hope for thebest, but they don't take the
time to adequately prepare.
And what you've said, with thetwo big issues that we face, is
that teens are two steps aheadThey've prepared and oftentimes
(08:24):
we haven't.
And then the other one is we.
Sometimes we haven't gotten onthe same page with the co-parent
.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And there are some others that are pretty important
to consider.
You know challenges tonegotiation in that relationship
and one of them is the powerimbalance within the
relationship.
I mean, if you think about anykind of negotiation, there's
this power struggle going on orsome kind of influence of power
happening.
And in a parent-child or teenrelationship, a lot of times the
(08:55):
parent has the power and it'snot like you can't lord over
them with that power, becauseyour ultimate goal as a parent
is to bring them along and helpthem take the power and do it in
a way that's mature and ismoving them forward in the goals
with their life.
And you know some teens don'treally want to take the mature
(09:20):
route.
They just may want to have thepower.
And so it's an interestingchallenge as a parent to have
maybe the power to take away acell phone or the power to give
them a curfew or all of thosethings, when some parents just
use that leverage and that powerinstead of creating true
(09:41):
influence.
And that's so tempting forpeople to not do it with
sophistication and with caringand with love because they have
the power.
And I think about that even ina business relationship, that if
that's what's happening.
If that's how you get what youwant in a negotiation, because
(10:01):
you just happen to have thepower this time, that is not
going to be a relationship.
That's going to be a reallygood one or a functional one
down the road, and so it's agreat practice to use and wield
power in a good way, as you'renegotiating things with your
teen and realizing you're goingfor influence, not control.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely, and when it comes to negotiation kind of
playing off of that what you'refinding is that if you are able
to get a deal simply by wieldingyour power, the only thing that
is keeping that deal in placeis your power, and once that
power wanes, the deal is gone.
And so one of the things youwant to do is create
self-enforcing agreements, andthe way to do that is by giving
(10:47):
the other person a sense ofautonomy and control.
They need to feel like they hadsome part in the creation of
this agreement, and that means,if your power wanes in that
situation, they're still goingto honor it because they see it
as something that they help tocreate.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Right, boy, does that play here, doesn't it, with
autonomy and sense ofinfluencing the outcome from a
teen's perspective that are inthat one down position, right.
And so what about the emotionsthat play?
What are the emotions that they?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
are feeling.
What are the emotions thatwe're feeling?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Emotions play a huge role in this, and if you think
about a parent-childrelationship, there's nothing
more intense than that.
I mean the love you have forthat child, the fear you have
for that child, the anxiety, theanger at times.
There's a reason why domesticviolence is one of those things
(11:41):
that probably most cops wouldprefer not to have to go and
deal with because of thevolatility of a domestic
situation of families.
So there's great opportunity ifyou do it right.
There's lots of ways you canfall off if you do it wrong.
Emotions play a huge role and,like I said, emotions like fear,
(12:03):
anger, anxiety all of thosethings cause negotiations to go
poorly, and so there's a lot ofthings you've got to do to make
sure you manage those emotionsRight, and I really like your
choice of words when it came towhat we're trying to do with the
emotions.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
We're not trying to eliminate the emotions or judge
the emotions.
We're trying to manage theemotions, and one of the things
that we find when we dig deeplyinto emotional intelligence is
that we can't eliminate theemotions, and emotion
suppression just leads to thatexpression of that emotion in a
more inopportune time, and so wejust need to learn how to find
(12:47):
ways that work for us to manageit.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
You know and I think there's extra incentive here
when you're talking about aparent-teen relationship,
because all of us parents wewant a long-term.
This is not just a three-yeardeal or a whatever kind of deal
we might be negotiating.
We really want this to buildour bond and to bring us closer
(13:13):
and closer together over theyears, as we're kind of dealing
with the ups and downs of lifeand the challenges of
adolescence.
We don't want that period oftime to and the way we mishandle
that to sacrifice what we couldhave long-term, and so that's
always kind of something youwant to keep in mind.
You know, what do we want thisto be like five years down the
(13:37):
road, 10 years down the road,and that will impact the way you
negotiate things with your kids.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
And most likely that long-term perspective will make
it harder to negotiate, in thesense that it'll take more
preparation and care and energyin order to negotiate
effectively.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, all the more reason to manage those emotions.
And it goes lots of differentdirections.
You know, sometimes parentswill want to just give them all
kinds of freedom and whateverthey want to try and keep the
peace.
But they're not thinkinglong-term, they're thinking very
short-term and they're thinkingin ways that is probably going
(14:20):
to be sacrificing the peace andcalm and relationship they could
have down the road.
So sometimes you have to becomea little bit withholding of
some of those things for thefuture, and the opposite can be
true as well.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Exactly.
So what are some strategies wecould use in order to be more
effective in these types ofdifficult conversations?
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Good question, kwame.
I would say the first thing Iwould do as a parent is I would
try not to teach my child tonegotiate in the sense of I'm
going to get good with words,I'm going to become clever, I'm
going to manipulate.
Rather than you, rather, youwant them to actually earn a
(15:08):
change in privileges instead ofjust be a good talker or someone
who can work you.
So you're really trying to helpthem realize, like I said
before, there's a gate they cango through where you can talk
and negotiate in a good way,talk about things in a good way.
That will help them get whatthey want, and you don't want
(15:32):
anything else to work.
That's the part of the key.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I like that a lot, and what you're showing there,
too, is that it's a team effort.
It's not just your ability tobe a smooth talker and get what
you want regardless of thesubstance of your words.
If we're going to have thisdiscussion, there needs to be
some substance behind it.
We need to come together insome kind of way.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
That's right.
You want their requests andthings that they might come to
you for, the things they want tobe almost schooled over time to
help them understand what's alegitimate request.
Kids will ask for all kinds ofthings many times that aren't
(16:15):
appropriate, and or they'll wantthings that are not going to be
helpful to them.
And so you want, as you moveinto strategies that are going
to help you guys negotiatethings really well, is you want
them to start to understand overtime that you're going to be
really fair, and that means onboth sides of this, you're going
(16:35):
to be open.
You want them to grow and youwant to give them challenges and
opportunities, but you don'twant to give them too big of a
challenge and too much of anopportunity, too much freedom,
because you love your kid andyou want them to be successful.
So I would say that basically,you want to set back to your
(16:56):
questions.
How do you help this to dealwith conflict that might happen
between parents and teenagers?
You want to set it up so thatyou're likely to be successful
when you're going to sit downwith the teen and talk through
things and negotiate something,and so, right off the bat, in
order to be successful, you haveto make sure number one, you
(17:19):
have to manage your emotions.
Well, I say, number one, get onthe same page through co parent
.
Number two manage your emotions.
And number three kind of have aprocess where almost an
orientation towards the questionor the problem, where you can
(17:39):
almost join up with your teenand say let's look at this
together and let's see how wecan deal with this issue that we
have here, and we're going todo it together instead of at
each other like this in combatand that's a brilliant way to do
it, because negotiation at itsbest is creative.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
It's almost like a joint brainstorming session,
where you both are looking atthe problem, trying to figure
out a solution that works, andgoing back to what we discussed
earlier, that's a great way toinvolve them in the problem
solving, so they feel like theyhave more autonomy and control
over the decision-making process.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Right, and so I would get really specific about okay,
what is it that we're going totry and solve?
What's the problem we're goingto talk about?
And get it to one thing Most ofthe time there's lots of
emotion, lots of history, lotsof things.
When all of that is kind of aplay that you throw out on the
(18:39):
table and now you've got a mess,and how do you kind of sift
through that and get anywheretogether and so agree on what
you're going to talk about andthat everything else is not
going to be brought in Right,and that's an important first
step as well.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
This reminds me a lot of the good old days in law
school.
One of the things that ourprofessors would always harp on
was the importance of issuespotting.
You have this big problem.
We need to be able to identifywhat the issues were, and
essentially that's what we'redoing here with this discussion,
with our teams.
We have a big issue here andnow.
We need to identify thosesmaller issues within it, and
(19:19):
that will give us more clarity.
And I think that's one of theissues people face when it comes
to these difficultconversations, because it seems
so huge and disorganized that wedon't even know where to start.
And then, once we get thatclarity now, we can start to
approach the conversation in amore systematic way.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Right, and with every kind of negotiation there's
always two sides to it, and sowhat I would say for parents, a
little tip for them, is once youhave solid ground for you and
your co-parent, you kind of knowbasically where you stand
together, then you can go to theteam and really open up your
(19:58):
heart and your mind and listen.
And I'd say you be the first todo that Because, again, that
power imbalance gives you anopportunity to kind of say look,
we're going to let youinfluence us first and we're
going to take it in.
I'm not going to make adecision right now, in this
(20:19):
moment, but I want to hear you,and I want to hear a lot, not
just what you want, but I wantto hear what are your thoughts,
what are your feelings, whathave we tried to do in the past?
How did that work?
What would be your hope for youout of this?
What would be the hope you havefor me out of this?
(20:40):
And let's let you just shareall of this, because without
that, all of that context,coming to any kind of decision
or conclusion really can't bedone.
And you're leading the way bysaying I'm here and I'm going to
listen at such a level that I'mgoing to be influenced by what
(21:02):
you have to say.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I love that so much because, first of all, it
reminds me a lot of the book byRenee Brown Daring Greatly.
Have you read that?
I sure have.
Brilliant book on theimportance of vulnerability and
essentially what it sounds likein this conversation.
You say we need to open up ourhearts and be willing to be open
to influence and listen and dothat first.
(21:25):
For a lot of people that'sgoing to feel uncomfortable,
it's going to feel very, veryvulnerable.
So how can parents become maybenot necessarily more
comfortable in this situation,because we can't really control
that, per say, but at least morewilling to deal with the
discomfort?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
One of the problems we have as parents when it comes
to opening our heart and ourminds to our teens is we think
that if we are open, that'salmost saying we agree with you,
and that's different.
And I think that sometimes itreally helps to let your teen
know that I'm going to be asopen as I can be.
(22:07):
I'm going to be open to yourinfluence.
Now don't misjudge my opennesswith agreement with this yet,
because down the road we'regoing to have to work through
where we really stand in the end.
But I'm here and I'm open, I'mready to be influenced, and I
think getting that out on thetable sometimes does help them
(22:27):
to say, okay, I can go ahead,and now that I've established
that I can go ahead and reallylet go and really be open to
this whole package ofinformation that my team is
going to give to me.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Absolutely, and the key word there is information,
and information is the lifebloodof negotiation.
The way I think about it is Icall it the light theory of
negotiation where it's like wein these discussions.
It's like entering a dark roomand our goal is to turn on small
lights so we can illuminate itand walk through safely.
And we do that by askingquestions, and the example that
(23:05):
you gave with the questions thatyou're asking like what do you
hope to accomplish from this,etc.
You're asking open-endedquestions, which gives them room
to elaborate, which in turnturns on the lights in the room
so you can navigate it safely.
And what's interesting too, alot of times when we have these
discussions, we go in there withan idea of what we think the
(23:25):
other person wants from theconversation, but oftentimes,
especially if it's emotionallycharged, the first thing they
want is to be heard and thatmight be it.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Right, that may be enough, and I love the metaphor
used there.
I can picture that in my mindwalking into this dark room,
because that is a scary kind ofsituation.
Am I going to step on somethingthat's going to hurt us?
And just a little bit at a time, you'll illuminate that room
and you can go first.
I think that's maybe part ofthe message here you can go
(23:58):
first.
Another thing I would throw outthere is that you're going for
solutions.
It is a we like to train ourparents to think in a
solution-focused way.
So we're looking for strengths.
We're looking for positiveexceptions to the situation.
(24:19):
We're looking for times when itwent well and ways that we
could maybe create something inthe future that builds off
strengths and past successes.
If you're coming at it withthat kind of intention, that
really comes out.
You're not just looking forproblems and all of those things
.
There's problem talk and thenwe call it solution talk, and
(24:42):
those are very, very differentfeelings that you get and what
you're doing is essentiallyinviting that other person in
the same space.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Absolutely.
Oh, my goodness See, whenever Iget somebody who's really into
psychology.
These conversations could go onand on and on, but for the sake
of time, I'll start to pull itback, and I wanted you to share
your thoughts on what you thinkthe most important skill for a
negotiator is in this particularscenario.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
You know, honestly, it's listening.
That is an incredibly powerfulskill and it has a lot more to
do with the way you are insidethan it is how quiet you are.
It's really a lot of internalwork because if you have
(25:33):
emotions getting in the way,you're not listening, so you've
got to work on that.
Or if you've got a preconceivedidea or an outcome you want to
have happen, you're really notlistening, so you've got to deal
with that and you have to havetrust the process.
So I really think that if youdo understand that you're going
(25:54):
to go for a win-win or no dealand you're going to trust the
process, then you can go intothat and be the listener first
and do it at a deep, deep level.
Because what will happen if youlisten really, really well and
that is, yeah, maybe avulnerable thing, but you're
actually inviting the otherperson to become more vulnerable
(26:16):
through your good listeningbecause they realize the trust
grows in that interactionbetween you and another person.
If you're listening at thatlevel, they just sense okay,
I've shown you the outer surfaceof my thoughts and feelings and
what I want.
I trust enough.
I'm going to peel off thatouter layer of the onion.
(26:38):
I'm going to go down one moreand they share that.
And if you continue to be anamazing listener that is not too
quick to jump in and tell yourside and want to almost take
over the talking and even saysomething shocking like is there
anything else you want to askfor?
Is there anything else that youwant to tell me that you
(27:02):
haven't shared yet?
And they go through and they'lltell you that next layer, and
then you say that's reallyhelpful to me to understand it,
that layer, and I would havenever known that had you not
shared that with me.
Is there anything else you wantto tell me?
And after a while they'll justshare all that they can share.
(27:24):
That's the level of trust thatthey can share and now you've
got this level of.
I mean, they've honored youessentially with that
information and so you want totreat it with honor and respect
and obviously you're going tokeep it confidential, probably
Some of it.
You're probably going to takeall of that into account.
(27:44):
Now there's a lot of peoplemight be hard driving
negotiators.
They don't want to do thatbecause now they can't treat
this person like a human,because they see him as a human
now, and that's kind of againstmy negotiation strategies to try
to get what I can out of thatperson, but this is, in my mind,
(28:04):
really the only way to create alasting, long-term win-win
situation that builds therelationship and builds the
person.
The people involved is to do itthis way, and it all starts
with that listening and modelinghow you want them to listen to
you.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Congratulations.
You've just joined an eliteclub.
By listening to a full episode,you're now officially on the
Negotiate Anything team, sowelcome aboard.
What most team members do isthey subscribe to the podcast
because that allows them toautomatically get the latest
episodes of the show.
The best things in life lie onthe other side of difficult
(28:45):
conversations.
Keep learning, keep listening,keep practicing and keep getting
better.
Your relationships will improve, your career will soar and
you'll have the confidence youneed to get the most out of
these crucial conversations.
Again, thank you for joiningthe team.
We're excited to have you and Iwill see you in the next
episode.
I'll catch you later.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Parents, your time is valuable and I'm grateful you
spent some of it with us.
What you're intentionally doingin your home life is inspiring
and unmatched in its importanceand long-term effects.
Ask yourself what am I going todo because of what I've learned
today?
There are as many ways to parent as there are
parents in this world, but thereis one way to parent that wins
every time, and that's doing itintentionally.
This show is about helpingthings go right before they can
go wrong.
Each episode is chosen to helpparents like you who may be
overwhelmed or uninspired,bringing the ideas and
(00:26):
motivation to give their bestefforts to the people and place
that matters the most.
I'm Dr Tim Thane, author of thebook and host of the podcast.
Not by Chance.
I believe that a family'ssuccess and happiness is not by
chance, so welcome to thepodcast.
Built especially forintentional families.
Let's jump in.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Hey everyone and welcome to our throwback episode
.
In our throwback episodes, weare reintroducing you to some of
our most popular episodes.
This is great for new listenerswho want to learn more about
the work we've done in the past,and it's a great refresher if
you've been a listener for along time.
Enjoy, Tim.
Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Hey, thanks Kwame, good to be here.
I'm looking forward to this.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to this too, because
this is going to be a fun one.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah, I think the topic is perfect for parents and
teens.
I mean, it's happening everyday, in every home out there
where there are kids and parents.
This is what's happening.
Especially after I read yourdefinition of negotiation, I
thought, absolutely.
This is happening under everyroof, all the time.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
And for those new listeners, the operational
definition we use fornegotiation is any conversation
where somebody in theconversation wants something.
And when you see that broaddefinition, you realize that
negotiation is everywhere.
And especially if you're aparent, you realize that it's
happening all the time, all thetime.
So how about you tell us a bit?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
about yourself and what you do.
So my background educationallyis marriage and family therapy.
I've got my PhD in that field,but I've always been a little
bit different.
My first.
I've been almost more anentrepreneur, as I have a
therapist.
My first job that I created formyself was actually while I was
(02:19):
a PhD candidate of Virginia Tech, and I took marriage and family
therapy and I wanted to see howthat would apply to business
organizations, and so mydissertation was applying MFT
principles and models to largeorganizations and the
relationships, becauseultimately, it's just a large
(02:41):
human system, just like a familyis a small human system, and it
was an amazing experience.
And so since that time, andbecause I was a bit lucky to be
honest with you, it worked sowell, I didn't realize that half
of it was just great timing,and I didn't realize that pain
in the organization that I wasworking with and consulting
(03:03):
ended up being the reason what Ihad to offer was so accepted,
and so I almost got the wrongimpression.
Because it worked so well, Ijust thought, hey, this is easy,
I'm going to keep innovating,and I found out later in my
career that there's a lot moreto something taking off than
just I had a good idea, butsince that time I've started
(03:26):
treatment programs foradolescents and young adults.
I've, in particular, I starteda wilderness treatment program
here in Utah and that's a uniquesetting where therapy tends to
really move things along quickly.
When you think about mothernature being a co-therapist and
the weather and all the naturalelements being a part of the
(03:48):
milieu of treatment, it has anamazing way to make change
happen very, very quickly.
But then later started a companycalled Homeward Bound because I
saw that these teens could doreally, really well in these
settings.
But the hard part was helpingthem transition all of that gain
into the real world, back intothe complexity of life, into the
(04:12):
old relationships with familyand friends and all of that and
maintain what they gained before.
That's the trick.
So I started Homeward Bound totry and help that happen.
And then since then I'm justabout ready to launch a tech
business which is really aroundthis same thing helping
treatment be more effective longterm.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
That is fantastic.
I really love that, especiallyas somebody with a background in
psychology and an entrepreneur.
You're doing it the right way,so that is great.
And just another fun note Ihave had now you are the second
person who has a background inmarriage and family therapy and
both of you are living in Utah.
How interesting.
(04:54):
Yeah, that's weird, that'scrazy.
That is crazy.
Very cool, and with this topic,it'd be interesting to see.
Maybe, as with the conversationinvolves, maybe we could talk
about some corollaries betweennegotiating with your teen and
negotiating with difficultpeople in the business world too
, because I'm sure when it comesto those difficult
(05:15):
conversations, there'll be somesimilarities.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I think you'll see, yeah, a lot of the principles we
talk about today.
I think that people will beable to look at that and say,
wow, I could take that to work.
In fact, we work with atHomeward Bound.
We work with parents all overthe country and many of them are
in business and they're doingthings every day to interact
with other people and they'renegotiating, and the skills we
(05:39):
teach them in the home for theirfamily tends to be something
they can take right to work andthey tell us that.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Right, oh, I'm excited to get into these
principles.
This is going to be good.
Before we get into theprinciples, let's talk about why
it's so hard.
I think we intuitivelyunderstand that negotiating with
teenagers is going to bedifficult, but I think it would
be great if we could assign somelabels to help the audience
understand what makes it sodifficult.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Well, particularly when you're talking about teens
and keep in context, we'reworking with teens that are
struggling a lot and theteenagers we work with and I
think, every teen honestlythey're always thinking two
steps ahead most of the time.
And parents are not thinkingtwo steps ahead.
You're not aware that they'reout, way out in front of you
(06:32):
when it comes to what they'reactually trying to get, and we
can be kind of caughtflat-footed, honestly, sometimes
as parents, if we're notthinking a little bit like a
teen does.
They're trying to get what theywant.
And the other thing that's sohard, that makes negotiating
with teens hard, is usuallythere's a co -parent in the
picture and if we're not in syncwith one another when we're
(06:58):
working through some issue witha teen and we set some
boundaries and we come toconclusions, if we're not in
sync with our co-parent, thatco-parent might not agree with
what we've created and the planswe've made.
And, in fact, although I alwaystalk about teenagers as kind of
like water, it's like watergoing down a furrow they're
(07:19):
always going to go down the pathof least resistance.
The two leaders in thesituation, the ones that need to
kind of be on the same page,they really have to talk a lot.
They have to be aware of whatthey're trying to achieve
together and they have to seewhere how they can kind of open
the gate so the team doesn'tfeel like they have to break
(07:42):
through the fence.
You know, let's go through theright direction.
I want to get that thing, or Iwant more freedom, or I want you
know something over here.
Let's show them how they canget there legitimately, instead
of how can they break throughthe fence and or go between the
two of us and get what they want.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
This is so cool because the corollaries are
readily apparent here, because alot of times that one of the
mistakes that people make innegotiations is they show up and
that's it and they hope for thebest, but they don't take the
time to adequately prepare.
And what you've said, with thetwo big issues that we face, is
that teens are two steps aheadThey've prepared and oftentimes
(08:24):
we haven't.
And then the other one is we.
Sometimes we haven't gotten onthe same page with the co-parent
.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And there are some others that are pretty important
to consider.
You know challenges tonegotiation in that relationship
and one of them is the powerimbalance within the
relationship.
I mean, if you think about anykind of negotiation, there's
this power struggle going on orsome kind of influence of power
happening.
And in a parent-child or teenrelationship, a lot of times the
(08:55):
parent has the power and it'snot like you can't lord over
them with that power, becauseyour ultimate goal as a parent
is to bring them along and helpthem take the power and do it in
a way that's mature and ismoving them forward in the goals
with their life.
And you know some teens don'treally want to take the mature
(09:20):
route.
They just may want to have thepower.
And so it's an interestingchallenge as a parent to have
maybe the power to take away acell phone or the power to give
them a curfew or all of thosethings, when some parents just
use that leverage and that powerinstead of creating true
(09:41):
influence.
And that's so tempting forpeople to not do it with
sophistication and with caringand with love because they have
the power.
And I think about that even ina business relationship, that if
that's what's happening.
If that's how you get what youwant in a negotiation, because
(10:01):
you just happen to have thepower this time, that is not
going to be a relationship.
That's going to be a reallygood one or a functional one
down the road, and so it's agreat practice to use and wield
power in a good way, as you'renegotiating things with your
teen and realizing you're goingfor influence, not control.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely, and when it comes to negotiation kind of
playing off of that what you'refinding is that if you are able
to get a deal simply by wieldingyour power, the only thing that
is keeping that deal in placeis your power, and once that
power wanes, the deal is gone.
And so one of the things youwant to do is create
self-enforcing agreements, andthe way to do that is by giving
(10:47):
the other person a sense ofautonomy and control.
They need to feel like they hadsome part in the creation of
this agreement, and that means,if your power wanes in that
situation, they're still goingto honor it because they see it
as something that they help tocreate.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Right, boy, does that play here, doesn't it, with
autonomy and sense ofinfluencing the outcome from a
teen's perspective that are inthat one down position, right.
And so what about the emotionsthat play?
What are the emotions that they?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
are feeling.
What are the emotions thatwe're feeling?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Emotions play a huge role in this, and if you think
about a parent-childrelationship, there's nothing
more intense than that.
I mean the love you have forthat child, the fear you have
for that child, the anxiety, theanger at times.
There's a reason why domesticviolence is one of those things
(11:41):
that probably most cops wouldprefer not to have to go and
deal with because of thevolatility of a domestic
situation of families.
So there's great opportunity ifyou do it right.
There's lots of ways you canfall off if you do it wrong.
Emotions play a huge role and,like I said, emotions like fear,
(12:03):
anger, anxiety all of thosethings cause negotiations to go
poorly, and so there's a lot ofthings you've got to do to make
sure you manage those emotionsRight, and I really like your
choice of words when it came towhat we're trying to do with the
emotions.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
We're not trying to eliminate the emotions or judge
the emotions.
We're trying to manage theemotions, and one of the things
that we find when we dig deeplyinto emotional intelligence is
that we can't eliminate theemotions, and emotion
suppression just leads to thatexpression of that emotion in a
more inopportune time, and so wejust need to learn how to find
(12:47):
ways that work for us to manageit.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
You know and I think there's extra incentive here
when you're talking about aparent-teen relationship,
because all of us parents wewant a long-term.
This is not just a three-yeardeal or a whatever kind of deal
we might be negotiating.
We really want this to buildour bond and to bring us closer
(13:13):
and closer together over theyears, as we're kind of dealing
with the ups and downs of lifeand the challenges of
adolescence.
We don't want that period oftime to and the way we mishandle
that to sacrifice what we couldhave long-term, and so that's
always kind of something youwant to keep in mind.
You know, what do we want thisto be like five years down the
(13:37):
road, 10 years down the road,and that will impact the way you
negotiate things with your kids.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
And most likely that long-term perspective will make
it harder to negotiate, in thesense that it'll take more
preparation and care and energyin order to negotiate
effectively.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, all the more reason to manage those emotions.
And it goes lots of differentdirections.
You know, sometimes parentswill want to just give them all
kinds of freedom and whateverthey want to try and keep the
peace.
But they're not thinkinglong-term, they're thinking very
short-term and they're thinkingin ways that is probably going
(14:20):
to be sacrificing the peace andcalm and relationship they could
have down the road.
So sometimes you have to becomea little bit withholding of
some of those things for thefuture, and the opposite can be
true as well.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Exactly.
So what are some strategies wecould use in order to be more
effective in these types ofdifficult conversations?
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Good question, kwame.
I would say the first thing Iwould do as a parent is I would
try not to teach my child tonegotiate in the sense of I'm
going to get good with words,I'm going to become clever, I'm
going to manipulate.
Rather than you, rather, youwant them to actually earn a
(15:08):
change in privileges instead ofjust be a good talker or someone
who can work you.
So you're really trying to helpthem realize, like I said
before, there's a gate they cango through where you can talk
and negotiate in a good way,talk about things in a good way.
That will help them get whatthey want, and you don't want
(15:32):
anything else to work.
That's the part of the key.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I like that a lot, and what you're showing there,
too, is that it's a team effort.
It's not just your ability tobe a smooth talker and get what
you want regardless of thesubstance of your words.
If we're going to have thisdiscussion, there needs to be
some substance behind it.
We need to come together insome kind of way.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
That's right.
You want their requests andthings that they might come to
you for, the things they want tobe almost schooled over time to
help them understand what's alegitimate request.
Kids will ask for all kinds ofthings many times that aren't
(16:15):
appropriate, and or they'll wantthings that are not going to be
helpful to them.
And so you want, as you moveinto strategies that are going
to help you guys negotiatethings really well, is you want
them to start to understand overtime that you're going to be
really fair, and that means onboth sides of this, you're going
(16:35):
to be open.
You want them to grow and youwant to give them challenges and
opportunities, but you don'twant to give them too big of a
challenge and too much of anopportunity, too much freedom,
because you love your kid andyou want them to be successful.
So I would say that basically,you want to set back to your
(16:56):
questions.
How do you help this to dealwith conflict that might happen
between parents and teenagers?
You want to set it up so thatyou're likely to be successful
when you're going to sit downwith the teen and talk through
things and negotiate something,and so, right off the bat, in
order to be successful, you haveto make sure number one, you
(17:19):
have to manage your emotions.
Well, I say, number one, get onthe same page through co parent
.
Number two manage your emotions.
And number three kind of have aprocess where almost an
orientation towards the questionor the problem, where you can
(17:39):
almost join up with your teenand say let's look at this
together and let's see how wecan deal with this issue that we
have here, and we're going todo it together instead of at
each other like this in combatand that's a brilliant way to do
it, because negotiation at itsbest is creative.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
It's almost like a joint brainstorming session,
where you both are looking atthe problem, trying to figure
out a solution that works, andgoing back to what we discussed
earlier, that's a great way toinvolve them in the problem
solving, so they feel like theyhave more autonomy and control
over the decision-making process.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Right, and so I would get really specific about okay,
what is it that we're going totry and solve?
What's the problem we're goingto talk about?
And get it to one thing Most ofthe time there's lots of
emotion, lots of history, lotsof things.
When all of that is kind of aplay that you throw out on the
(18:39):
table and now you've got a mess,and how do you kind of sift
through that and get anywheretogether and so agree on what
you're going to talk about andthat everything else is not
going to be brought in Right,and that's an important first
step as well.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
This reminds me a lot of the good old days in law
school.
One of the things that ourprofessors would always harp on
was the importance of issuespotting.
You have this big problem.
We need to be able to identifywhat the issues were, and
essentially that's what we'redoing here with this discussion,
with our teams.
We have a big issue here andnow.
We need to identify thosesmaller issues within it, and
(19:19):
that will give us more clarity.
And I think that's one of theissues people face when it comes
to these difficultconversations, because it seems
so huge and disorganized that wedon't even know where to start.
And then, once we get thatclarity now, we can start to
approach the conversation in amore systematic way.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Right, and with every kind of negotiation there's
always two sides to it, and sowhat I would say for parents, a
little tip for them, is once youhave solid ground for you and
your co-parent, you kind of knowbasically where you stand
together, then you can go to theteam and really open up your
(19:58):
heart and your mind and listen.
And I'd say you be the first todo that Because, again, that
power imbalance gives you anopportunity to kind of say look,
we're going to let youinfluence us first and we're
going to take it in.
I'm not going to make adecision right now, in this
(20:19):
moment, but I want to hear you,and I want to hear a lot, not
just what you want, but I wantto hear what are your thoughts,
what are your feelings, whathave we tried to do in the past?
How did that work?
What would be your hope for youout of this?
What would be the hope you havefor me out of this?
(20:40):
And let's let you just shareall of this, because without
that, all of that context,coming to any kind of decision
or conclusion really can't bedone.
And you're leading the way bysaying I'm here and I'm going to
listen at such a level that I'mgoing to be influenced by what
(21:02):
you have to say.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I love that so much because, first of all, it
reminds me a lot of the book byRenee Brown Daring Greatly.
Have you read that?
I sure have.
Brilliant book on theimportance of vulnerability and
essentially what it sounds likein this conversation.
You say we need to open up ourhearts and be willing to be open
to influence and listen and dothat first.
(21:25):
For a lot of people that'sgoing to feel uncomfortable,
it's going to feel very, veryvulnerable.
So how can parents become maybenot necessarily more
comfortable in this situation,because we can't really control
that, per say, but at least morewilling to deal with the
discomfort?
Speaker 1 (21:46):
One of the problems we have as parents when it comes
to opening our heart and ourminds to our teens is we think
that if we are open, that'salmost saying we agree with you,
and that's different.
And I think that sometimes itreally helps to let your teen
know that I'm going to be asopen as I can be.
(22:07):
I'm going to be open to yourinfluence.
Now don't misjudge my opennesswith agreement with this yet,
because down the road we'regoing to have to work through
where we really stand in the end.
But I'm here and I'm open, I'mready to be influenced, and I
think getting that out on thetable sometimes does help them
(22:27):
to say, okay, I can go ahead,and now that I've established
that I can go ahead and reallylet go and really be open to
this whole package ofinformation that my team is
going to give to me.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Absolutely, and the key word there is information,
and information is the lifebloodof negotiation.
The way I think about it is Icall it the light theory of
negotiation where it's like wein these discussions.
It's like entering a dark roomand our goal is to turn on small
lights so we can illuminate itand walk through safely.
And we do that by askingquestions, and the example that
(23:05):
you gave with the questions thatyou're asking like what do you
hope to accomplish from this,etc.
You're asking open-endedquestions, which gives them room
to elaborate, which in turnturns on the lights in the room
so you can navigate it safely.
And what's interesting too, alot of times when we have these
discussions, we go in there withan idea of what we think the
(23:25):
other person wants from theconversation, but oftentimes,
especially if it's emotionallycharged, the first thing they
want is to be heard and thatmight be it.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Right, that may be enough, and I love the metaphor
used there.
I can picture that in my mindwalking into this dark room,
because that is a scary kind ofsituation.
Am I going to step on somethingthat's going to hurt us?
And just a little bit at a time, you'll illuminate that room
and you can go first.
I think that's maybe part ofthe message here you can go
(23:58):
first.
Another thing I would throw outthere is that you're going for
solutions.
It is a we like to train ourparents to think in a
solution-focused way.
So we're looking for strengths.
We're looking for positiveexceptions to the situation.
(24:19):
We're looking for times when itwent well and ways that we
could maybe create something inthe future that builds off
strengths and past successes.
If you're coming at it withthat kind of intention, that
really comes out.
You're not just looking forproblems and all of those things
.
There's problem talk and thenwe call it solution talk, and
(24:42):
those are very, very differentfeelings that you get and what
you're doing is essentiallyinviting that other person in
the same space.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Absolutely.
Oh, my goodness See, whenever Iget somebody who's really into
psychology.
These conversations could go onand on and on, but for the sake
of time, I'll start to pull itback, and I wanted you to share
your thoughts on what you thinkthe most important skill for a
negotiator is in this particularscenario.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
You know, honestly, it's listening.
That is an incredibly powerfulskill and it has a lot more to
do with the way you are insidethan it is how quiet you are.
It's really a lot of internalwork because if you have
(25:33):
emotions getting in the way,you're not listening, so you've
got to work on that.
Or if you've got a preconceivedidea or an outcome you want to
have happen, you're really notlistening, so you've got to deal
with that and you have to havetrust the process.
So I really think that if youdo understand that you're going
(25:54):
to go for a win-win or no dealand you're going to trust the
process, then you can go intothat and be the listener first
and do it at a deep, deep level.
Because what will happen if youlisten really, really well and
that is, yeah, maybe avulnerable thing, but you're
actually inviting the otherperson to become more vulnerable
(26:16):
through your good listeningbecause they realize the trust
grows in that interactionbetween you and another person.
If you're listening at thatlevel, they just sense okay,
I've shown you the outer surfaceof my thoughts and feelings and
what I want.
I trust enough.
I'm going to peel off thatouter layer of the onion.
(26:38):
I'm going to go down one moreand they share that.
And if you continue to be anamazing listener that is not too
quick to jump in and tell yourside and want to almost take
over the talking and even saysomething shocking like is there
anything else you want to askfor?
Is there anything else that youwant to tell me that you
(27:02):
haven't shared yet?
And they go through and they'lltell you that next layer, and
then you say that's reallyhelpful to me to understand it,
that layer, and I would havenever known that had you not
shared that with me.
Is there anything else you wantto tell me?
And after a while they'll justshare all that they can share.
(27:24):
That's the level of trust thatthey can share and now you've
got this level of.
I mean, they've honored youessentially with that
information and so you want totreat it with honor and respect
and obviously you're going tokeep it confidential, probably
Some of it.
You're probably going to takeall of that into account.
(27:44):
Now there's a lot of peoplemight be hard driving
negotiators.
They don't want to do thatbecause now they can't treat
this person like a human,because they see him as a human
now, and that's kind of againstmy negotiation strategies to try
to get what I can out of thatperson, but this is, in my mind,
(28:04):
really the only way to create alasting, long-term win-win
situation that builds therelationship and builds the
person.
The people involved is to do itthis way, and it all starts
with that listening and modelinghow you want them to listen to
you.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Congratulations.
You've just joined an eliteclub.
By listening to a full episode,you're now officially on the
Negotiate Anything team, sowelcome aboard.
What most team members do isthey subscribe to the podcast
because that allows them toautomatically get the latest
episodes of the show.
The best things in life lie onthe other side of difficult
(28:45):
conversations.
Keep learning, keep listening,keep practicing and keep getting
better.
Your relationships will improve, your career will soar and
you'll have the confidence youneed to get the most out of
these crucial conversations.
Again, thank you for joiningthe team.
We're excited to have you and Iwill see you in the next
episode.
I'll catch you later.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Parents, your time is valuable and I'm grateful you
spent some of it with us.
What you're intentionally doingin your home life is inspiring
and unmatched in its importanceand long-term effects.
Ask yourself what am I going todo because of what I've learned
today?
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.