110. Ask A Therapist: Attachment Styles, Manifestation, and Friend Drama | Featuring Carter Umhau - Not For Everyone

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Maybe these doors were always there, maybe these opportunities
always would have presented themselves.
But now, because I'm clear that that's a thing that I want, I'm
looking for it. I'm talking about it.
And when the moment comes where the door is open for me, I take
it because it's like something I'm aware I'm looking for.

(00:25):
Hey, welcome back. This is not for everyone.
A podcast hosted by 1 Hater and One lover.
And today with a very special guest who I actually would love
to know if you associate more with hater or lover Carter, but
maybe we'll get to that. Today we're going to do kind of
a therapy deep dive with our friend Carter, who's a

(00:46):
therapist. I'll let Caroline get into the
introduction, but this is very exciting.
Just to be clear to the listeners, this is very
exciting. You should be excited because we
are not professionals, so we brought one to you.
Yes, we did. Therapy is such a common topic.
And then I feel like it's just just talking feelings, talking
vibes on here. So we figured we'd bring in

(01:06):
someone who actually knows what she's talking about.
And Jess and I both actually have.
I feel like most of my friends are therapists, and today I
brought one of the most magnificent ones.
Carter Umhal is a licensed therapist and an artist.
She holds a bachelor's in Creative Writing and a master's
in Counseling Psychology. Carter draws from her
backgrounds in the arts and the food world, as well as her

(01:29):
clinical focuses of eating disorders, creative therapies
and soul oriented work to createvibrant and honest spaces both
in and outside of the therapy office.
She has over 10 years of clinical work and over 15 years
of experience hosting various workshops, classes and retreats
for anybody who wants to use creativity as a means to deepen

(01:52):
their relationship with herself.She also has actually a bunch of
classes and retreats and like, open office hours now as well,
and we'll share information about that in case I wanna go.
Yeah, you should. She's amazing.
Do you? Have to be in DC or is it
virtual? Both.
So I love getting to do stuff here in DC, but I also love

(02:14):
getting to do stuff online. Most of my clients have been
seeing me online, so I'm very comfortable in there.
They can be very, very fun to do.
A Zoom room that actually is full of energy like you guys do
it here. Cute, cute.
We love it. OK, she's a.
Oh, she's also just one of my dearest friends.
I feel like I should have said. Say that.
Yeah, she's a healer. She's a say that Carter, do you

(02:38):
want to tell us about like a class or workshop you've coming
up that you're particularly jazzed about?
Cause one of the things I do I think is really cool and is a
particularly good fit for Cartercoming on the podcast is that
she's conducted, she's like donetraditional therapy one-on-one,
the way you picture therapy. But she also believes that
there's, there's limitations sometimes to just being in this

(02:58):
like stale room sometimes. And she's done a lot of like
workshops, therapies, creative work out in the real world to
help people connect and heal. And I think that's one of the
coolest things you. Do thank you I I love getting to
do stuff that's not therapy because I feel like for so long,
the spaces that I was finding outside of therapy were really

(03:19):
therapeutic and enlivening for me.
And often times the stuff that honestly was held by other
therapists that I'd go to felt really sad, whether it was a
workshop or a retreat, like it felt so heavy and serious, which
is wonderful and appropriate andreally helpful sometimes.
But I also feel like once you'vedone some therapy for a little

(03:41):
while and know yourself or trying to know yourself, you
need to be in the world too. And so I love getting to create
spaces where people get to come for a reason that has to do
with, you know, a hobby or an interest.
But they are connecting in a waythat is so much more enlivened
instead of just about kind of this more emotion focused, more

(04:04):
internal withdrawal that I thinkcan happen if you're doing a lot
of therapy. Yes.
Is there anything in particularly coming up that
people should look out for? Yeah, I'm hosting The Artist's
Way, a workshop that has been one that I hosted last year and
I absolutely loved it. It's going to be in person in DC
and online starting next week. And The Artist's Way, for anyone

(04:26):
who hasn't heard of it, is a 12 week workbook written by a woman
named Julia Cameron. And it's about unblocking your
creativity. But it's, I think such an
incredible tool for anyone that wants to get to know themselves
better too. I use it a lot when I worked in
eating disorder clinic and offered prompts to those clients
that were just about like kind of exploring who you are, what

(04:48):
your desires are, who you want to be in the world, and kind of
undoing some of the negative patterns and belief systems that
you may have about like what your capacity is and what you're
allowed to do in the world. I think a lot of us have stories
about what's acceptable and our parents might have information

(05:08):
for us about like what kinds of jobs we're supposed to have or
who we're allowed to be. And The Artist's Way is a really
incredible course that's all about kind of getting more in
touch with your own soul and learning to take care of
yourself in different ways, and doing so focused on creativity
and yourself and your identity as an artist.
But really it's like it's connecting to your inner child.

(05:31):
So I teach a workshop around that because I did it on my own
and always wanted to kind of be able to talk about it in therapy
and talk about it with other people.
And so I'm bringing kind of a therapeutic lens, but it's
really playful and creative. And then I also am going to have
some office hours open. I just love getting to talk to
people and love getting to talk to people every single week when

(05:51):
I'm seeing them weekly. But I also get to host some
like, you know, six week series for people and collaborate on
what it is they're actually wanting and eating.
So both of those things have a cool job.
You have a cool, cool job. I'm jealous of everything you
just said, but I'm. I've kind of made it up.
Excited to learn about it. Yeah, that is the coolest part

(06:12):
of it. No, so much of what you just
said I feel like resonates with me, but also with a lot of the
things we talk about and a lot of the things people write us
about on the podcast. So yeah, I'm really excited
about this episode. Yeah, Carter offers a bunch of
different kinds of in person online group, retreat, workshop,
one-on-one different offerings. They're very cool, traditional

(06:37):
and less traditional, especiallyfor creative oriented people
trying to figure out who they are.
We're going to put a bunch of information to find her stuff in
the episode description. We'll also probably circle back
at the end of the episode, but let's let's warm it up a little
bit. We have a lot of listener
submissions that we pulled for Carter to answer.

(06:58):
But I feel like before we get into the serious stuff, in the
name of play, as you say, can I,can I persuade you to get into a
little segment that we sometimesdo Carter and like, warm up and
then we'll get serious. Definitely.
OK, so we sometimes do very haphazardly.

(07:19):
We when we don't have anything to talk about today, we have a
lot to talk about. But we do a Google search
history segment where you just go to your Google app and tell
us like something in there from your recent searches that's
embarrassing or funny or what have you.
I mean, two things right off thebat.

(07:39):
I recently moved into an apartment that has a strange
layout, so I'm constantly Googling like what kind of
modular couch could make sense for a tiny space that has a
fireplace right when you walk inthe door.
So I'm like miniature apartment,like a big.
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Actually, I'm trying to get as
specific as as possible so that people that maybe have come

(08:00):
across that problem have some answers.
And then otherwise, I have to say that I'm I'm Googling Justin
Baldoni and Blake Lively a lot. We all.
Are. I know you have and I, I, I
really am interested in the details regularly.
I need to be up to date, up to date and it feels like I can get

(08:21):
my like psychological brain around it.
And I also feel like I you just want to write a dissertation on
why it's a relevant topic right now.
So I'm, I'm Googling them a lot,reading the case or the trial
notes, whatever they are, yeah. Yesterday I searched best
natural butt in Hollywood. That is important.

(08:42):
That is important. Ryan and I were talking about
best butts or I was trying to tell him that he has like, like
objectively one of the best butts ever because I do think he
does. And he was like, that's not,
that's not, that's a subjective topic.
Like even if I thought that I could be in the running, which I

(09:02):
don't think I could be. That's so humble.
A totally subjective thing and Ijust no, it's not there are
objective. There are some butts.
There have to be some butts thatare objectively anybody looks at
that butt and they're like, that's good.
Yeah. But then I everyone I was
thinking of, he was trying to tell me that their butt was
fake, which like, sure, I'm surea lot of these celebrity butts

(09:24):
that we celebrate are. Oh.
Tell me a butt. I feel like I'm the butt expert.
You tell me a butt and I'll tellyou if it's fake.
OK, I can't figure out, well, are we going to come back to my
girl Beyoncé? I can't figure out if her butt
is enhanced or if it's natural. Oh, I can't speak to that, but
she's definitely had a lot of work done, so it's not
impossible. Right, OK then, like Jlo is

(09:48):
another celebrated butt. Fake was great and she
definitely enhanced. She definitely enhanced it since
yeah, she's. Like as she aged.
Probably, yeah. She's had so much plastic
surgery. So is Beyoncé.
Yeah, I think they. Which is sad because they both
started with great butts, naturally.
It's hard. So I would actually like people
to write me with a celebrity, but that they believe to be

(10:11):
natural and that they also believe to be objectively a
good. But because everyone I was
thinking of, even if they have amore modest, but you know, like
obviously Kim Kardashian has a fake butt and it's a huge butt
and you might like it, but that it's just like two things that
make it, uh, not normal. Yeah, now I want to Google best

(10:35):
butts in Hollywood. I was thinking that like
Shakira. Yeah, I feel like Shakira would
be a good one. Could be maybe.
Yeah. Scar Joe Best natural butt in
Hollywood. It didn't turn up any good
searches by the way, like. When I Google it didn't.
When I Google it, Hugh Jackman is high on the list.
Oh, are you serious? Yeah, Hugh Jackman apparently

(10:56):
has a great ass. OK, I don't know.
OK, that settles that science. Cool, I feel good about that.
Let's get into the real stuff. Sweet as heck.
Listen Carter, we're going to slap you with a couple of
listener what a do's and write insurance.
And before we do that, I think we need to do 1 legal call out

(11:20):
for the lawyers so nobody sues us.
Yes and sues me. I love getting to talk as a
therapist and as a person at thesame time because I it's just
I'm both you're both I'm both crazy.
Isn't that cool? Crazy to hear that yes kind of
person 1st and therapist mind and heart in a lot of ways, but

(11:43):
whatever I say in response to any questions, any thoughts
there? If this is not therapy, that is.
That's even if I give an opinionof some kind, it's not therapy.
Therapy is therapy because it isso deeply attuned to the
specificity of you and who you are, and the space held there

(12:05):
gives so much more room and consideration to a whole wealth
of context. That is not going to be
happening in podcast. So what I say might be helpful
to you. It might be therapeutic, but
it's not therapy. No one's allowed to sue us.
Here we go. All right, we got one listener
write in, she writes. Hello fellow kooks.

(12:26):
I'm torn at times between trusting the universe with my
life and relationships and taking action.
For me specifically, I'm currently in a season of life
that I feel ready to meet a partner and start a life
together. I'd like advice on which is more
true or appropriate. Trusting the universe versus

(12:47):
taking action. I see people preach about
manifesting and trusting the path I'm on in life and that
path will magically connect me with a partner.
I know you 2 have both met saying Jess and I have both met
our current partners online so you obviously took matters into
your own hands. But sometimes I feel if I'm
patient enough and have an open heart and mind the universe

(13:09):
might help me. I'm always afraid of sounding
stupid, so I hope this landed better than it's sounding.
This was geared towards love, but it also applies to where my
life is going. Do I trust the path I'm on or do
I have to do some deep inner work to confirm whether it's
right and if I discover it's not, then take action?

(13:29):
To summarize, is manifestation real or does this little lover
need to go asking for what I desire?
I love her. Kissing your girls petite from
afar. Thank you for providing me with
silliness and laughter every week and on the pod.
Sweet. I love her.
I love her too. I love her too.
What a good question. I I was really struck by the

(13:54):
question around like is manifesting?
Is manifestation real or does this little little lover need to
go asking for what I desire? Because I think actually those
two things are the same. I, I think knowing what you want
and doing the deep inner work tofigure that out is part of what

(14:15):
manifestation is. I, I think that I believe in
manifestation. I think it's a woo woo word that
kind of winds up getting kind ofconfusing about what the
practicalities of that are. But I think that when you do the
work to know really specificallywho you are and what you're
seeking and what you want and what kind of energy feels

(14:37):
authentic to you, and then living your life in a way like
that that puts you out into the world.
You may set yourself up to receive some of the things that
you want most because you're in more alignment with what you're
looking for. So I don't, I don't think these
things are mutually exclusive. Like I think that's my first
main point on that. You have to be in your life for

(15:00):
something to happen. And I don't know if that means
for someone that they want to goon the apps and try that.
But to receive something, you have to like kind of have your
MIT open. Like, I don't know where the
baseball metaphor came from, butlike you have to be ready to
catch it. You can't just be in your
closet. So those are my first thoughts.

(15:21):
What do you guys think? I was going to add one small
thing I forgot that the same listener wrote a follow up
e-mail which I think adds a lot.So well I guess first of all I'd
say I agree. I, I guess personally, I don't
really understand the value of manifestate like manifestation
as a I guess I don't really understand what it does for some

(15:45):
people. I'm not opposed to it, but for
me, I think I identify very muchas taking action, but I'm not
opposed to it for other people. I just feel like the people who
I see talking about loving manifestation, they have also
taken action. So I'm like, great, yeah, makes
sense to me. And I guess, yeah, let me just

(16:06):
read the rest of what she wrote.So she actually sent a follow up
e-mail and said, OK, I talked more about manifestation.
But a large part of what I was trying to get across with
finding a partner is so many people I've talked to say they
found their partner at the leastexpected time or when they
stopped looking. Have you ever heard of that?
It's rather annoying and haunts me because I'm over here like,

(16:29):
oh, so I just need to quit looking and then it'll magically
happen. Love you long time listener.
So I feel like that when I, I did want to read that e-mail
because I feel like that elucidates a lot of the specific
attitude here, At least personally, I would say
manifesting alone to find a partner and and taking no action

(16:50):
to me is the exact same as saying you hope to find a job
but not leaving your home and not sending an e-mail and not
going on an interview. I don't, I don't know how that
would work for any human. You have to, like you said, put
yourself on the I think it'd be the same.
I think you get the same results.
I don't expect to find a job unless I put up my resume,
unless I contact people, unless I have some networking meetings,

(17:12):
blah, blah blah. You can still manifest and like
have your attitude, but I do think it's the same as that.
But I think what, what gets to me more is what she wrote about
'cause I heard that too. And I think to some degree I'd
understand why people say that. When you stop looking, you find
it. And I guess I have my own
opinions, but I'd love to hear. Yeah, if you have more thoughts.

(17:34):
Sorry, I didn't read that earlier.
No, I love that. I think that where she's coming
from with that really is interesting and matters a lot
because people say that all the time.
People say that all the time when you're not looking at it's
it's so annoying because it is because because people desire a
relationship. No, it's not helpful.
So if. You like taking action?
You're like, great, so you're telling me the thing the answer

(17:54):
is something I have no control over?
Fuck you. It's annoying, yeah.
I, I think when I think of that though, and the part that maybe
I can get behind a little bit that feels like it's in this,
like it's part of the spirit of what people are saying when they
say, oh, you know, you'll find someone when you're not looking.
Is that when you are embodying yourself and your best life?

(18:18):
I'm going to take back best life.
I actually kind of hate that best best life feels like.
Authentic. Authentic but also like, are you
having a bad day? That's fine, that's fine.
You don't have to be having likea great time of things, but when
you're connected to yourself, I think that you're living in a
place that hopefully is honest and authentic.
And when you're putting less pressure on, oh, this person

(18:42):
needs to be the right person forme or Oh my gosh, I I'm only
going to be thinking about dating.
Other parts of your life can kind of run dry and you maybe
aren't as deeply involved in your relationships with your
family or your friendships or your relationship to your own
well-being, your spiritual being, your emotional
well-being, like whatever else it is.
And then I think some people wind up not feeling like a whole

(19:07):
self. And it's, I think more often
than not when you're feeling a little bit more with yourself,
that doesn't need to need to be like totally whole and whatever,
but like more with yourself thatyou then wind up going to a bar
and having a more authentic conversation.
Or you go on a date where you have something more to say or
you know what kind of question you want to ask someone on that

(19:28):
date because you know yourself alittle bit better and you're
curious about what they have to bring to the table when they're
in relationship to themselves. Well, and so it just, it takes
the pressure it I feel like thisis about pressure more than it
is about like manifestation. I couldn't agree more.
Like as Caroline was reading thequestion, I was like, it's to

(19:48):
me, it's like an energetic thing.
It's not so much about like do Itake action or do I?
Is the is the action manifestation or is the action
stopping? It's like an energy that.
You exude. And I think the fucked up and
annoying part of it is that if you're trying to exude it,
you're not exuding it. And so the only reason that

(20:12):
people can give this type of advice, this bullshit annoying
advice of like you'll find them when you're not looking or when
you least expect it is because they have hindsight to be able
to say, Oh yeah, that really wasthe moment that I kind of like
stop trying to force things as much and was just feeling really
good about myself. And just naturally I was open to

(20:35):
it. And then it came and like, I
don't think that anybody can really make themselves do that
or, or decide that they're goingto do that and then the next day
start doing that. It is something that just like
will naturally flow from you if you're there and then you can

(20:57):
only really know that that happened for you when you look
back on it later. So that's why this is so
annoying to me because I used tostruggle with this very thing
when I was dating and when I wastrying to figure out like career
stuff and just like wanting to be in a life that wanting to be
in the life that I was dreaming of and being like, do I have to

(21:20):
go and get every single aspect of it and like force it and put
pressure on it and like make it happen for myself?
Or do I have to be a little bit more relaxed?
And the honest truth is that I feel like I was just a pendulum
swinging back and forth across both of those all the time.
Sometimes I would be more like, I'm just, I'm tired and I got to

(21:40):
take a break from trying to force it.
And then other times I would be like, no, I really want these
things and I'm going to go afterthem.
And it just like flung back and forth for, for a while.
And I do think once I stopped trying to control that process
so much is when things started to fall into place.
But it, it's not without effort and it's not without action and

(22:04):
it's not without like the MIT being open.
All of those things are necessary components.
I don't know if I'm saying anything.
It's such a fickle thing. And I'm like very frustrated for
everyone who's struggling with this because I struggled with it
too. And I like, wish I had something
better to offer to like just make it click, you know?

(22:25):
I totally I totally agree with what you said.
I think the way like I made it make mathematical sense in my
head of like trying to take thisnebulous thing that's energy and
vibes and like where's your focus?
I fucking hate that. Like I like math the way I think
of it personally. If it helps is thinking about

(22:48):
fulfillment in your life. And all of us are attracted to
really fulfilled people. It's like a human thing.
The person at the party who's just like dynamic and they're
loving life and they are excitedto talk about something, they're
excited to do something. They're excited about their
people or about their work or about whatever.
Everyone is drawn to that personthat's an enigmatic, charismatic

(23:10):
person. And the person in the corner who
hates their fucking job and hates their fucking family and
is so annoyed at their loser friends.
And why does every blah blah blah and all the worst stuff
happens to me? Like no one's attracted to that
energy. And to me, fulfillment doesn't
come from one thing. You need some amount of
fulfillment from your work. You need some amount of

(23:31):
fulfillment from your relationships, some amount of
fulfillment from your family, whether that's biological family
or the family you create some fulfillment from either creative
life or spiritual life, internallife, whatever you can have.
You know, say I have like 5 mainbuckets of fulfillment and one
of those I would like to be fulfillment from a romantic
partner. And so I think the attitudes

(23:53):
people have is like, well, if I really want a romantic partner
and I don't have that, I'm goingto focus all my energy just on
getting a partner. That's all I want.
And I don't give a shit about myjob and I don't give a shit
about my friends and I don't give a shit about my creative
work or any of that. All I care about is the fact
that I don't have this partner. It's so annoying.
No one's attracted to that energy.

(24:14):
On the other end of the spectrum, you have this idea
that like, oh, when you stop caring about it, it'll come.
So I'm supposed to fucking gaslight myself into pretending
I don't want a partner, which I know I do.
I don't know how that hypnosis is supposed to work.
Never worked for me. I think the in between that
feels actionable is being like, it's OK for me to have one

(24:35):
fulfillment bucket that's not full right now and I still
really want it. And also I'm not going to like
forget about the fact that my friend fulfillment bucket is
really full. My work fulfillment bucket is
like 40 percent full. My family fulfillment bucket has
its own thing, my exercise routine bucket, my personal
creativity projects bucket. Like I'm going to just make sure

(24:58):
that I don't focus only on the one bucket, but it's also OK to
still want that one bucket. So you're like you're keeping
all your fulfillment buckets in mind.
Some of them are full, some of them are medium.
One of them might be more empty than you want, but it's like
kind of like keeping in touch with with the ones that are
healthy and fuller. And then to me, that's the like

(25:20):
when you're not looking as much because I'm not just, I'm not
putting 100% of my day every daytowards bemoaning the fact that
I'm such a victim that I, I don't, I don't have anything in
my life because I don't have a partner.
It's like I actually have all these other things.
And also, yeah, I totally want to partner.
And to me that was like kind of the in between actionable space.
And it did take like concerted effort for me to remind myself,

(25:42):
go see your family, go see your friends, keep loving and working
at your job and do the creative project.
Even though you feel a really strong yearning to find a
partner, just feeling that strong yearning and doing
nothing doesn't help me find it any faster.
So I might as also tend to the other things I love in addition
to putting myself on apps or going on dates or whatever.
I think that's kind of how I think of it, yes.

(26:04):
Carter's nodding. I'm yeah, I'm definitely nodding
because I, I think that, I mean,Carolyn, when we first became
friends, I remember you saying something about like
diversifying your happiness. I think it's the way you put it,
diversified fulfillment. Yeah, diversified fulfillment.
And I, and I remember, I mean, Ithink about that phrase a lot
because it really is so important to diversify the ways
that you're finding that fulfillment.

(26:25):
And I also think that it's, you know, maybe back to the word
manifestation, I think that there's something about that
word that projects like a reallyparticular way of interacting in
the world that is puts all the focus on one thing, one type of
fulfillment. And the way that I maybe would
agree with the word, like I saidearlier, is more about like

(26:46):
having having an imagination forwhat it is that you want and
really getting specific about it.
And I don't mean like this person needs to look this way or
needs to act this way. But like, how do you want to
feel in relationship to someone that you want to be with?
You know, like what how do you want to feel about yourself when
you're with them? How do you want to feel in the
conversation? What's the energy like?

(27:08):
Obviously you'll be surprised too, but I think it getting
clear on specifics about who youare, what you want, what you
imagine, how you want to feel inyour life is part of like kind
of doing some manifestation likeslash prep work slash.
Just be like getting clear aboutwho you are so that you go into

(27:31):
a date or you go into, you know,the Walgreens with like a sense
of, Oh, I like this energy. You know, I want to, I want to
see more of this energy in my life and this person maybe is
making me curious about that. You may bump into that, or you
may go find it. I liked what you said earlier
too, like in alignment with thatof like knowing what questions

(27:55):
you want to ask on the date, like knowing what's important to
you when you meet someone is such a key element of this.
And so, yeah, if that for you ismanifestation, if you label that
as manifestation, like, oh, I know the things I want and I'm
manifesting them, or if you justcall it journaling, or if you
just call it knowing yourself, or if you just call it like for

(28:19):
me. I feel like imagination.
That resonates. I've never heard anyone
imagination. Imagination.
I thought that was great. I think usually, yeah, I've I've
had an issue with the word manifesting, but I like the way
you described it, yeah. But I, I also, the word that I
like or the phrase that resonates with me is like, I
really do think that I've spokena lot of things into existence

(28:41):
for myself. And that doesn't mean that I
just say I want X and then I getX, right?
But what it does is that if I'm clear that I want X, and I say
it confidently to myself, to my friends, just in the world, if I
write it in my journal, if I write it in my goals, if I like,
put intention behind it, it becomes something that I can

(29:04):
actually have. Like, yeah, it goes from, oh, I
imagine this thing and I dream of it to like, I want this and
I'm gonna go get it. And I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say
that out loud and I'm not gonna be afraid to voice it.
And for me that has been translated into like doors
opening that maybe would have opened anyway, but I noticed

(29:26):
them because I'm saying I want that thing.
Exactly. So that's the MIT being open.
It's like maybe these doors werealways there, maybe these
opportunities always would have presented themselves.
But now, because I'm clear that that's a thing that I want, I'm
looking for it, I'm talking about it.
And when the moment comes where it, where the doors open for me,
I take it because it's like something I'm aware I'm looking

(29:49):
for. So for me, that's how
manifestation has shown up. Like if, if that's what you want
to call it, to me, doesn't matter what you call it.
I, I think it's happened in my, in so many ways in my life.
And I do believe in that and that, yeah, I just think that's
an important part of it. I still had to go get it.
I still had to go walk through that door and do the next thing.

(30:11):
And then something hard happenedand then something confusing
happened, and then I had to pivot.
But it's just like you notice the door and you walk through
it. I love that way of describing
it, Jess. Yeah.
It's kind of like I'm, yeah, youjust have to like set a
directive and a goal for the company.
Otherwise, yeah, there could be a million business opportunities

(30:33):
coming through the door. But if your team doesn't know
what the goal is, you can miss them.
Just the the the fact of noticing it 'cause you stated it
as a goal to the company of Jess.
I love that. Yeah.
That really makes sense to me. Do you guys want to do another
one? Yeah.
Let's do another What to do? Hi guys, I have what to do for
you. A new guy just moved to town and

(30:53):
kind of entered our friend group.
He's become friends with my husband and some of my other
friends through their gym. The gym owner introduced one of
my best friends to him and framed it as a setup but he was
unaware. Now she's absolutely smitten
with him. When we hang out he's almost all
she talks about. But after getting wind of the
setup, he revealed to my husbandthat he wasn't romantically

(31:14):
interested in her in the slightest not to tell her so he
could do it himself. However, this was weeks ago and
he hasn't told her yet. He continues to see her for
services. She's a massage therapist and
because of her crush, she gives him extra time for free so that
she can spend time with him. Oh, every time we hang out, I
have to listen to her go on about him having to bite my

(31:36):
tongue, feeling like she's getting taken advantage of.
It's hard to have conversation with her because it feels like
everything she says is irrelevant because I know she's
headed towards a dead end. We've encouraged her to try to
hang out with him outside of theprofessional setting or to
communicate her feelings as a way to hopefully guide her to
learning the information herself, but she's hesitant.

(31:56):
She's such a gem but has a lot of trouble romantically and it's
hard to see her wasting her time.
I want to just say fuck this guy, I don't owe him anything
and just tell her, but I don't want to meddle where it's not my
business. What a do Whoa that is.
For a professional, that is. I know honestly, this one feels
like my heart aches a little bitand or a lot of it.

(32:22):
And it's this is complicated. This is really complex because I
the thing that I feel like firstof all, the, the friend that's
writing us can decide if they want to say something.
I'm not against it. Maybe that's chaos, but like,
I'm not against saying like, yo,you know what?
This person doesn't seem interested in you, He said.
So because he's kind of he's taking, he hasn't said.

(32:44):
So to the to the girl he. Hasn't, but in the meantime he's
getting free massage hours or extra time.
Like he's motherfucker. Yes, he's.
Take really tips it over the. Edge that changes things because
he because there's a sign here that he's actually like using
her affection for him to his benefit.
And it it kind of suggests that there's something there that

(33:06):
he's he's aware of like he he knows he should say something
that he's not interested that heknows that she is and he's still
doing this. So he's actively using her.
So I don't necessarily feel likeshe, the the person writing in
needs to protect him, which is basically what she'd be doing by

(33:26):
not letting Yeah, by by not mentioning that information.
It's a way to protect him. But I also feel like there are
ways to really, you know, back to that word mirroring that we
talked about earlier, like mirror back to your friend, like
what you're noticing that she isor isn't doing.
And that might just be like, yo it.

(33:47):
Like it looks like you're reallytrying to give this guy extra
time and he's not really pursuing you outside of getting
massages from you. So like, maybe see what happens
when you're not doing as much work or like mirroring back
maybe places where she's feelinghesitant.
Like that's really interesting to me that she's feeling

(34:08):
hesitant to bring it up. Like what's that about?
I had the same thought. Yeah, As a friend, I would maybe
just ask her more about that, like why?
What are you scared of? What are you feeling?
What are you sensing? And obviously, like, I may be
more of a therapeutic friend, but that's how I would approach
it. I would do the exact same thing.
I, I and I like the word mirroring there.

(34:29):
Like, I try to ask questions in situations like this to lead the
person hopefully down the right path.
So exactly when she said that her friend is hesitant to talk
to him about it, I was like, well, that's a perfect
opportunity to ask her like, well, why are you hesitant?
Oh, yeah, it is true. I guess you guys haven't, you

(34:52):
know, hung out besides the massages.
How do you feel about that? Like, I feel like that's kind of
weird that he's just wanting to use those services but not
wanting anything further. Like, I would just suggest it.
But I also agree with what you said that, like, this guy
doesn't deserve protection. Like, fuck him.
So I don't know. What do you think, Caroline?

(35:14):
Oh my God I have so many. I feel like I have so like 3
different answers. I don't know OK on on one hand I
have felt like kind of no inclination.
As soon as they said that, he was like accepting free free
sessions from her. I feel like a good person would
already feel awkward enough Justnoticing that someone has a

(35:35):
crush on you and you don't like them like that already makes you
kind of feel bad if you have anyconscience, let alone to then
take free services from them. It's like taking money if that's
your profession. It's like taking money from
them. So it's like you're an asshole.
I feel no need to protect him atall.
I think my hesitation around saying something is that I think

(35:56):
they like a, a very recent olderversion of me would say
something of being like, I need to help you.
You're gonna get hurt. This is damaging, this is
painful for you. I need to help.
And just recently learning I've been trying to get out of this
liaison position because of how badly and how frequently the

(36:16):
liaison position goes badly or even it's just completely
wasted. Like just learning that people
you can literally forget mirroring, forget being gentle
and therapizing. Even if I literally said I
recorded him saying he doesn't like you, which would be a crazy
thing to do. But say I did that.

(36:36):
If someone's not ready to believe it and feel that they
won't listen, it's like it actually doesn't even.
It's like you can tell someone any advice you want and they
usually they don't learn it until they're ready, until
they're ready to learn the lesson.
And it also makes me think about, which is not to say I
wouldn't get involved at all, but there's just like a, you
know, there's an aspect of that,of that I feel like, am I going

(37:00):
to weigh in and be like, listen,I don't even think he likes you.
And this person, the friend, thegirlfriend's also being a little
blind, like it's maybe she's notready to believe that.
I don't know. But it also makes me think about
like, it's a weird position really, just because the the
listener knows this guy's feelings.

(37:22):
But this is something that we all experience with our friends
or siblings all the time. And we just don't happen to have
a relationship with this guy where we listen to our dearest
friend tell a dating story that we're like, this dude doesn't
like. I'm pretty sure this dude
doesn't isn't treating her well or doesn't like her or like
she's really ranting about this person.
And I don't have any indication that this is like a mutual

(37:43):
thing. Like, I feel like this situation
happens all the time and we justdon't usually have a
relationship to that guy. And so I kind of am imagining
like, what if she didn't have access to this guy and didn't
personally know his feelings? You would still need to let your
friend go through the very painful process of like
experiencing some pain and having to actually learn the

(38:05):
lesson through doing it. Maybe not the the wisest way or
or whatever you want to call it.It's like those lessons just
happened for everyone in dating.Like, I was the friend I did
that I did. I, I pursued unwise paths in
romance so many times and I didn't unlearn that lesson

(38:28):
'cause someone told me about it.I unlearned it like once I fell
on my face enough that I was tired and and also hearing wise
input from people I respected inmoments when I was asking for
it. And so that's, I feel like that
small space where you can weigh in with a perspective.

(38:50):
But I also like, I don't know, Iguess what I would actually do
is like maybe the mirroring. I fucking don't have the
patience for mirroring. I like can't do this shit.
I'm not I'm not good at it. I'm not good at, but I OK, I do
think I might tell the guy. This is stupid, but I think
realistically I also might go tothe guy and be like, Hey, I
don't want to be involved in this.

(39:11):
But you said you're a teller. You got I don't think you've
told her right? Like if you don't tell her like
I'll, I'll, I'm happy to tell her myself.
You're a piece of shit. Fuck you.
Whatever. No, I wouldn't say that.
But like, I think I might just be like, give him one last push
to go tell her. I don't know, but beyond that, I
don't want to be involved that much.
I think I hear everything you'resaying.
I think realistically I agree with the part of like

(39:35):
realistically, if I were in thissituation, I would pretend that
I didn't know the information from the guy.
So like what you're saying, likeeither way, whether I know that
the guy 100% isn't into her or I'm just getting the information
from her, I can probably gather that this guy she's talking

(39:55):
about is not in it the way that she's in it.
And so that's like, I know that already without knowing anything
about him. So I would be operating 100%
from that mindset, which is why I said I would do the mirroring
just 'cause I know myself and I know that that is how.
I don't know if it's right, but I know that that is what I do in
these situations with friends. But what I will say is that I

(40:18):
will only do it once. I'm not talking to you about
this all the time, and I'm not therapizing you about it all the
time. That's not my job.
But I will do it one time when it feels right.
Maybe there's an opening. Maybe they might not
specifically have asked for advice, but like, if there's a
little opening and I've heard about it enough now and

(40:39):
selfishly I'm tired of hearing about it.
So that's the reason that I would say something because I'm
not just going to keep listeningto this bullshit blindly and
quietly. So I would say something and it
would be in the style of like asking the right questions and
mirroring because I don't want to come off too harsh because

(40:59):
I've been in this situation too.And they do need to learn the
lesson their own way on their own time.
And they might, might not be open to anything I'm saying, but
I will just ask the questions when the time presents itself
one time. And then beyond that, yeah, I
don't. This is not, this has nothing to
do with me. Like that is honestly how I

(41:20):
would handle it. Whether it's the right way to
handle it, I don't know. But that I know that that is
what I would do because I've been in a very similar
situations before. Yeah.
OK, look, it's me. I'm the problem.
I am the queen of putting off doctor's appointments, putting

(41:43):
off getting help. Just like when something pops
up. I had a cold last week.
I have a weird like rash on my eye right now.
And I'm really glad that I'm recording this because it's
reminding me that there's an easy solution and that I should
stop putting it off because there's just a way to go on my
phone, click a few buttons, typein a few things, and get support

(42:05):
right away like there's an easy solution.
Jessica, the hives that have appeared on your eyelids will be
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Zocdoc is sponsoring today's episode and Zocdoc has become
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(42:27):
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(43:14):
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(43:45):
So what happens when we know in this situation, this person is
going to keep talking about it? Yeah, I know.
I think that's hard because I, Ithink that's happened to be so
many times where I'm like, you're literally describing a
person who could not have fuck boy printed on their head more
clearly and you're fantasizing about a relationship he has

(44:05):
never wanted with you, he's never talked about, and actually
he's explicitly rejected. What am I supposed to say for
the 10th time I've been in this position?
Yes. That's a question for Carter.
Yeah. Carter, tell me, 'cause I just
get mad like this and I'm like, I'm heated.
I'm fucking. I started out trying.

(44:26):
To protect you Annoyed. And now I wanna hurt you.
Yes, annoying, of course. I mean, of course it's annoying
and it should be. And I think that like if, if
you're able to hold that energy and like know that you actually
are angry about it, you're annoyed, you don't want to hear
about it anymore. Like I hear that actually as a
protective feeling like you're angry cause the boundary keeps

(44:46):
being crossed. Their boundary keeps getting
crossed by like being treated poorly and your boundary keeps
getting crossed because you're sick of it.
I've been in this situation too.And I think that like honestly
coming with that energy, but just maybe tailored a little is
helpful because I before I was in any healthy relationship, I

(45:09):
feel like I absolutely was looking all the time for
information that maybe so and sowas interested or like, maybe
this fantasy can work. Like you're wanting to
understand if there's a possibility or not, but you
maybe don't have the experience yet to actually know what it
feels like when it's peaceful orgood.
Until you're in something good. Yeah, which sucks because if you

(45:30):
don't know and and you're waiting decades to feel that
feeling, you don't know. And I think that as a friend, it
feels like a service to say like, yo, that's not, that's not
the real real deal. If you're worried about this in
this way, if you're getting no information from him, that's I
don't think that this is it. And in the meantime, if it's

(45:50):
gonna turn into something, I think that you need to have some
different boundaries around, like not giving him free
massage, you know, like he's getting what he wants from this
without you really getting anything.
So could you act in alignment with what actually would feel
good for you in the meantime? And it's probably not just
honoring the part of you that wants to spend all the time with

(46:11):
him in the free, free massage inthe last extra 20 minutes or
whatever it is. Like, what do you actually want?
And if you wanna keep trying with him, cool.
But like, let's do it in a way that serves you rather than just
serves him. And like move the anger energy
as a friend toward like a protective like yo, like this
isn't working for you. It's not working for you.

(46:33):
I want it to. Assume we do everything you just
said, Carter, because we're goodfriends and we care and we're
channelling our anger into helping them and caring about
them. But they still keep doing it.
And the problem for me now becomes they still keep talking
to me about it and they still keep expecting my same level of

(46:55):
engagement when like I'm not. I've told you what I think about
this. It's exhausting for me at this
point to hear you continue to say, oh, he did this, which I
feel like maybe is a sign that he does like me, even though I
relate to it, even though I I sounderstand and I have so much
compassion for it. I also am like, dude, I can't

(47:17):
like by just like listening to you talk about it in this like
delulu way. I'm not honoring you.
You know what I mean? I'm not like I'm losing respect
for both of us by being in this conversation over and over and
over again. So what do you do?
And, and we get this message a lot of like my friend is like

(47:40):
won't shut up about this thing or is using me as her therapist
vent, vent session person. And just like, what's the word
like just pours all of trauma, trauma dumps on me or whatever.
And I'm like, I don't know what you do.
I have this problem. I don't know what to do.
What's crazy to me too is like I, I'm not, this has happened to

(48:04):
me so many times with so many different people.
And I will get to that point where I'm like, yo, I'm angry
because you just keep getting hurt.
And I'm wondering when you're going to start like doing, you
know, the post mortem of why this is happening.
And, and, and I'll say somethinglike super direct.

(48:27):
And then three days later they just pick up the same
conversation. And I'm like, first of all, why
do you feel comfortable talking to me about this already?
Like you, they, it's like there's a, there's a, there's a
kind of like brainwashing. I think when you're so set on
something and it totally happenswith love and romance and all
those things because we all go crazy where it's like, I
basically told you, I think thisis the dumbest thing I've ever

(48:47):
heard. Why do you even still want to
talk to me about it? I don't know.
Good for them. Yeah, good for that.
I don't. I mean, I love that you say
something and I love that they come back because they probably
trust you and you're not being as mean as you think.
But I'm so angry. Yeah.
I mean. Oh, you're such a therapist.
Me. Yeah, You're just like

(49:08):
validating us being assholes andalso simultaneously validating
the other person being an asshole in their own way.
I mean, at all you're very good at.
You're very good at this. Thank.
You, I mean, it does it does make sense.
And I think that that's like we all have the different parts of
us that really do want to be able to be a good friend and
listen and that also really don't want to listen anymore.

(49:29):
And I think that in the ways that we can saying like, oh,
you've talked about this a lot or, or just if you can tolerate
it, like let your body do a little bit of the talking, not
in a judge mental way. You don't have to be like
growling at your friend, but like withdraw a little bit
physically and then maybe changethe subject.
You know, like it doesn't have to be mean.

(49:51):
Yeah. I never want to give the advice
to like withdraw, but like, you know, you don't have to keep
serving it up. You're allowed eating.
Yeah. It's a.
Boundary thing though, if if like you're not being, I think
if it gets to that point where it's a monologue and like, oh,
you're not, we're not having a conversation anymore.
Anytime somebody is like, it's no longer a dialogue.
I don't feel that I owe them allmy openness.

(50:14):
No, you don't. You don't.
And I think that if you want to say anything else, it can be
helpful to say like, you know, it seems like you're actually
just spinning about this now. And like, I don't know exactly
what you want to say. Everyone's going to say this
differently. But I think knowing that
actually they're in an anxious spiral, probably like that's
sort of what we're talking about, right?
Like if you if you are fixated on what does this tiny little

(50:38):
thing mean? Does this person like me, what
can I do to actually get them torespond?
Like that's anxiety. And so to say that a little bit
be like, wow, you're, you know, like it just seems like you're
in a space that you actually need some room to deal with
this. Either like maybe talk to your
therapist more about it or like,I don't know.

(51:00):
Again, I don't it feels like we're giving advice exactly to
the friend, which makes sense, but I think I want to speak to
the fact that like when we are excited about someone or when
we're even in a relationship with someone already and we're
trying to figure out like what the hell is going on in that
romantic relationship. I know you guys have talked
about this before. Like we have to do anxiety and

(51:22):
attachment work inside of ourselves in those moments.
And this person isn't doing thattotally right.
Like I don't know 100% if they're doing any of it
privately, but they're trying touse their friend to like self
soothe in some way. And that has to happen
internally, which? Yeah.
Is kind of the point of all this, I think.

(51:45):
That's actually spot on how likethe anxious spiral, like they
are in an anxious spiral and that can easily be confused in
dating with like excitement and attraction and like will we,
won't we? Like I feel like sometimes,

(52:05):
especially when you're maybe newer to dating or you're
younger or you haven't done the work and the therapy and stuff,
that feeling of fixation and spiraling and like wondering,
thinking all the time about thisperson and is that, do they like
me? Do they not like me?
Feels like what, what we want, We're like, oh, I, I have it, I

(52:29):
have the thing. I, I'm excited about this person
and I'm, I'm scared. I'm kind of scared, but I'm also
excited. And like fearing for my life.
Right. But it like that spiral is an
anxious spiral, but if you haven't been through it enough
times to have figured that out yet, then like you think that
that's just being excited about someone new.

(52:51):
So I do think there is somethingto like calling that out for
somebody. And maybe a good way to do it is
like, I've been there before, like levelling with them of
like, I get it 'cause I've felt this way and like I've, I see,
like I see you going through something that I just went
through with. So, and so you can like

(53:12):
reference something if it if it's your friend.
And maybe that makes it a littlebit more like, yeah, like easier
of a conversation to have. Yeah, I also think what you
just, what you just said made merealize too, that like in that
anxiety, in the fantasy part where it can feel confusing,
whether or not it's excitement or fear or anxiety or attachment

(53:32):
wounds or whatever it is that people are getting anxious
because they feel vulnerable. And they have desire for a
relationship. They have a desire maybe for
this particular person to be thekind of person that they wind up
in a relationship with. And a lot of it is fantasy so
far that you're projecting onto someone.
But that fantasy I think is beautiful.

(53:55):
Like, it actually does signify that you have a heart and you
have an imagination for what youwant.
And you are like, Oh my God, maybe this is the moment, right?
Like maybe I finally get to connect and that can be held
separately and should be held separately.
Then the like part of you that'slike, Oh my God, like I should
text him again. I should text him again.

(54:16):
Like, what is he thinking? Like those are two separate
processes happening. And like, if you can hold the
imagination for, Oh my God, I'm stoked about this person.
And all of me now is like alive and excited.
And I really want this to work. Like you have to do some both
like encouragement of your heartto keep that alive and also some

(54:37):
like, and we don't know him, like and we don't know him yet.
And so like given that we don't know him, he's a stand in sort
of we'll see how it goes. Is he texting me back?
OK, No, shoot. What does that mean?
Do I want to try again? I don't know, like, but honoring
the heart that is there, that gets excited is so important.

(55:01):
And I think that that, you know,if you're thinking about being a
friend to someone in that position, that feels like so, so
much part of the process, like, like you're excited.
Let's talk about what you're excited about.
Oh, he's yeah. He's not giving you that, You
know, like let's, you know, as somebody else.
Can we talk about what else you could do or just move on?
Like, we don't need to bread. You don't need to get the bread
crumbs. Wow, I I'm speechless.

(55:23):
That was perfect. I love that.
I love that. Carter, you were talking a bit
about something that segues intoanother question someone sent
in. Someone wanted to ask you.
Can you fix your attachment style while in a relationship?
Yes, yes, yes. I mean attachment style is

(55:44):
created within relationship likethat.
That is what it is by definition.
It's created because of our first and primary relationships.
And so the only way to fix it isthrough relationship.
Caveat though, yes, caveat though, is that you can also
create attachment to yourself, to a core self.

(56:05):
That is I, I would say like a, acore sense of self if you have
one. Not everybody does.
But mostly my answer to this is like, yes, you kind of have to.
You will not learn new things inrelationship unless you do new
things in relationship and so the neural pathways will create

(56:30):
new networks when you try something different and that
only happens in relationship. Yes, OK, well I love to hear
that 'cause I agree and in my experience that is the truth.
But it's like great to hear it from somebody who actually knows
what they're talking about. But I would love to talk a
little more about this and like,first of all, maybe give people

(56:50):
some grounding and attachment styles 'cause I think many
people know what that is now, but I don't want to take that
for granted. So like a quick maybe definition
from you, Carter, of like the attachment styles and then maybe
an example of like if you are anxiously attached, how in
relationship could it look to become more secure through a

(57:14):
partner? And like what would that
partner's attachment look like? And I don't know.
I know there's a lot of different configurations that
could exist within this, but just making it more tangible for
people would be helpful. Absolutely.
This feels like there's so much to say.
So I think briefly defining attachment style in and of
itself is it's the way that we learn that we are safe and going

(57:39):
to be cared for and get our needs met by an attachment
figure. This could be a parent, it could
be an older sibling that's thereto take care of you.
Like it could be whoever was or wasn't there.
And when we have a caregiver, weare looking for them for our
basic needs to be met. So that's food, that's safety,
shelter, etcetera. And it's also emotional

(58:03):
attunement. Does this person care if I'm
crying? Does this person care that I'm,
you know, not around? And we learn whether or not we
can be safe in that attachment, if our needs are gonna get met
through those initial attachmentrelationships.
And it gets complicated because we have complicated parents, we

(58:26):
have complicated siblings, we have complicated people in our
lives. They can't always do that.
And so it's not like if you havean attachment style that's this
way or that way people were bad or you're bad, or it's all
flexible, but we'll think about like anxious attachment, there's
avoidant attachment, there's disorganized attachment, and

(58:47):
there's secure attachment. The hope is that you would learn
or earn, quote UN quote, a secure attachment, which means
that like you can heal your initial attachment style and it
can become a secure attachment. You can earn that through new
experience with someone else andalso I want to say with yourself

(59:09):
too. So an anxious attachment, if
this is still helpful to kind ofdefine the styles.
An anxious attachment is gonna be pretty preoccupied around
getting their needs met. So they might go in OverDrive to
figure out how to get those needs met.
So let's say someone is not their caregiver wasn't

(59:29):
consistently around, they're gonna be like, OK, well, I do
know that like mom responds wellto me when I start being really,
really helpful. So I'm, I don't need to cry.
I'm just gonna like get in. I'm just gonna do the dishes.
I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna clean everything up.
You know, this could this is me.I'm imagining like more like a 8
year old at this point, But thiscould happen in different ways

(59:50):
when they're even younger or a lot older.
Avoid an attachment for a simplekind of example would learn
like, OK, this person's not consistently available.
I don't really know what to do with that.
And so. I'm kind of gonna try to figure
out how to break off my need forthem.

(01:00:10):
I'm gonna disconnect from my need from them by turning my
attention elsewhere. Both attachment styles are high
distress, but they're gonna lookreally different.
So the, the anxious person's gonna get maybe more
preoccupied, more active in conversation.
That could look like someone like, oh, well, how are you

(01:00:31):
feeling? Oh, oh, my God.
OK. Your face, like it.
I just noticed that you're like,you're not as happy as you were.
Like, you could get really, really, really like, attentive.
The other person could feel justas much distress and with an
avoidance style, could just kindof go like, OK, you know, and
start withdrawing. Maybe go into the kitchen and
start doing those dishes by themself.

(01:00:52):
Really don't want to be seen. They're hiding in the bathroom.
They're in there for a while quietly.
They stop really talking about their feelings.
There's nuance in both categories.
The disorganized attachment is going to have a big mix of both,
and it's going to often be from pretty significant confusion

(01:01:13):
around the attachment figure. That's not very consistent.
They're not very consistent and often comes with more
significant trauma. I say that with a little bit
more of a caveat because that doesn't have to be the case and
significant is really subjective, but to have a secure

(01:01:34):
attachment, you are. You're able to trust that your
needs are gonna get met pretty well most of the time.
And if not, you'll be able to like kind of repair with that
person. So the person doesn't need to be
perfect, but they're available enough and are interested.
And you can trust that and know that and know that there will be

(01:01:55):
some moment to come back to eachother.
That was helpful. Something that really helped me
with like embracing that healing.
Yeah, I guess I will share that.Like coming out of a long term
relationship, I had been, I think I was trained to be very
anxiously attached because it was someone who would get mad at

(01:02:15):
me a lot, would break up with mea lot, would blame me a lot.
And that echoed on the attachment issues I had from
childhood already. So it just, I was in a
relationship that made my attachment issues worse for
sure. I think if you're with the wrong
person. And then that relationship ended
and I did all this healing. I mean, I even started doing
some healing, but also some protecting myself and some

(01:02:38):
reacting to that even while I was in the relationship, which
is I actually became very avoidant.
I began to live like a solitary person even while I was in that
relationship and decided if I can't rely on them for anything,
then I certainly won't rely on them for anything.
And that was protective of me inthe moment.
Then the relationship ended and there are a few years while I
was living as a single person and I felt very healed because I

(01:03:03):
was really happy and my life wasgoing well and my friends and
family and work and release to myself was all really good.
And I felt like I'd done all this healing and a lot of it was
healing. But then.
But it was all done alone. It was all done solo and it was
all dependent on not relying on anyone.
And so then when I entered my relationship with Justin, I was

(01:03:25):
gobsmacked by this anxiety that overcame me.
And feeling that anxiety all of a sudden when I'd been very
happy single and felt very stable, single was so confusing
and eerie because I was like, well, what does that mean?
If I felt so stable when I was asingle person?
And now I feel fucking wrecked. And it came down to the fact

(01:03:46):
that, like, I wasn't encountering attachment as a
single person because I had systematically made sure I was
attached to no one. And it was like you said that
vulnerability and the attachmentissues is like, yeah, I was
stable and fine so long as I relied on no one for anything,
which is not how a relationship works.
And the beginning of the relationship with Justin was

(01:04:08):
fine. But as soon as moments of
vulnerability came up that harkened back to those ancient
moments such as I'm having a negative feeling and I need to
express it. And that is so terrifying cause
I've only ever been shunned for that.
I've only ever been hurt for doing that.
I would get super anxious. I need you to tell me right away
that you're not mad at me. I would need you to tell me that
it's, it's OK that I, that I said that I was sad or that I

(01:04:29):
was mad about something. I need you to tell me
everything's OK. And something that helped me in
healing that in a relationship was not avoiding those moments,
but embracing them and knowing that those are the only moments
I could change my attachment. And I really feel like my
attachment style has changed because I have practiced the

(01:04:50):
things that scare the shit out of me.
So I practice expressing anger and disappointment, which is so
fucking terrifying. And I practice doing it.
And then when Justin is still there and still hearing me and
still listening and still lovingme on the other side of it,
that's what starts to change my attachment style or another big

(01:05:10):
trigger for me was something. It's going to sound stupid to
people, but even I'm even something like having my going
out at night without Justin was a moment where an ex-boyfriend
would attack me, accuse me of cheating, blah blah blah.
He might break up with me even if I was just out alone at night
on my own, let alone if my phonedied.

(01:05:33):
If my phone died, my battery died while I was out alone, I
would have a full panic attack because it could mean, oh, he's
furious with me. He's going to break up with me.
He's going to accuse me of this and it I really had to take baby
steps with that with Justin. There were still lots of moments
where I was out alone in a restaurant and my phone died.
I ran home to charge my phone because it was so upsetting.

(01:05:53):
But like in baby steps, I would learn to sit through.
I'm going to let my phone be dead right now.
And I'm going to feel the anxiety.
And then I'm also going to feel how Justin is still there on the
other side of it. And that is the only way.
So like I share that to be to say, like I think yes, the
healing does happen in a new relationship.
And it also specifically happensin moments where you feel like

(01:06:16):
your underbelly is exposed and it feels it happens in the
moments where you're like, this is a thing that terrifies me.
It's never been received well inthe past.
I'm terrified it won't be received well.
Now if I express my feelings, ifI express my needs, if I'm messy
for a moment, you know, cuz an attached secure partnership

(01:06:36):
should also allow you to be messy and to have faults and to
need to apologize sometimes. And I'm even in moments where
I'm like, oh, I actually fucked up and I'm not going to go
groveling. I might do an appropriate
apology, but I'm not going to grovel and beg and take
everything back and blah, blah blah and see and like, let
Justin show me whether he's there or not as a secure partner

(01:06:58):
on the other side. And that is the exact moment
where it healed for me. It was fucking exhausting and
terrifying. I relate to that so much.
I mean, we've talked about it before.
Like the exact journey that you just described is very similar
to the journey that I went on when I ended my last long
relationship, which only fueled the anxious attachment that I

(01:07:21):
had developed in childhood, thenfigured out how to be on my own.
At first that was terrifying. And then it was like, oh,
actually I figured out a way to make this happen and make a, a
life for myself and meet all my needs on my own.
That was cool, but it wasn't healing because like you're not
put into those situations that you are in relationship.

(01:07:44):
So exactly the same way when Ryan and I first started dating,
like I, I even was thinking about this the other day.
I like lost a ton of weight the first couple months that we were
dating because when I'm anxious,I don't really eat like my body.
My body holds the anxiety and this like pit in my stomach.
So I was like looking back at pictures and I was like, Oh my

(01:08:05):
gosh. I was like a smaller version of
myself because I was so anxious.Not because he was doing
anything wrong, but just becausehaving to like, be vulnerable
with someone new and trust that he was gonna stick around even
when I was emotional or needy orwhatever I was labeling myself

(01:08:28):
like that put me through the wringer for the first several
months, probably longer, honestly.
I mean, it just came up in new ways over the course of time.
And I mean, it still comes up occasionally, but it's so much
more leveled out now. I do feel like I'm closer to
secure than I've ever been. But something that I thought of
while you were talking was this other message that we got that I

(01:08:49):
really liked. Somebody wrote in and said, what
does it take to really feel a truth versus knowing like, I
know my mom's action is wrong, but don't feel that.
And I'm really curious what you think about that, Carter,
knowing that you've done a lot of like therapy around like how,

(01:09:11):
how the body feels. Because for me, I read that and
it, it resonated a lot. And I feel like before there
were stages to me healing my anxious attachment.
And one of the stages in relationship with Ryan was like
this knowing of like, I know that if I show up in this quote

(01:09:32):
UN quote, less attractive way, he's still going to be there for
me. But even when I knew that and I
had confidence in that fact, like logically, cognitively in
my brain, there was still such atriggered physical feeling for
me. And that is something that I've
healed in the last six months toa year through EMDR therapy,

(01:09:53):
which is very much focused on like the bodily sensation of
your anxiety. So I really understood what this
person was talking about, of like, I cognitively understand
that I'm safe, but my body doesn't feel it.
So anyway, I just thought that that fit well here and wanted to
see what you thought. Oh, totally.
I feel like every question that you guys got comes back to

(01:10:17):
attachment really at the end of the day.
It took me a second to like, really, I think understand what
this person was saying when theyasked that question, 'cause I
think for me, there's so many ways to think about like truth
versus knowing. And it's interesting to think
about it through attachment of like, what is the difference
between, you know, just knowing something cognitively versus

(01:10:37):
really feeling it. And I, I feel like the piece
that I'll, I'll speak to is based off of what you just said,
Jess, this idea that like you could really know that someone's
there for you and not feel it inyour body.
There's such a different requirement in that moment to

(01:10:57):
have a relationship to yourself and to your own body that it is
strengthening to pursue that. And I think that that's why
earlier I was talking about likeit's important to think about
attachment healing and relationship, but also that like
your relationship to yourself has something to do with that
too. Because if you are so anxious
that someone hates you, when actually you know that they love

(01:11:20):
you, they keep telling you that.And this is not an abusive
situation, but like, you know that it's you're actually your
attachment anxieties. I think getting in touch with
the feeling inside of your own body and staying with it and
really getting curious about like, OK, where is this anxiety
coming from? What is it telling me?
What's happening? Where does this feel familiar to

(01:11:42):
me already? And in past stories, in my life,
past experiences is such an important process to then learn
how to self soothe and figure out some of what your inner
child is talking about, what your inner child is feeling,
what they're scared of, what they need.
And that can allow you over time, I think, to get clearer

(01:12:06):
about how to properly respond that.
I'm saying that in quotes, like properly respond, accurately
respond to how someone is treating you 'cause you will
have overtime more of an integrated sense of like what
you feel is true and what you know is true.
Those things could be disparate,but I think like, am I, am I

(01:12:27):
making sense with that? I feel like there's so many more
things to say about it. You are, I mean, it goes back to
what Caroline was saying of likeallowing those opportunities
when her phone was dead to just sit there and feel what she was
feeling about it rather than like trying to rush to fix it.
Because I think that's a lot of what I learned through the body

(01:12:50):
work in therapy is like actuallygoing through the feeling rather
than immediately trying to make sense of it or even soothe it.
I mean, you get to soothing, butlike before you can sue that,
you have to know what it really is.
So I understand what you're saying.
Like you kind of do have to allow yourself to feel those
things in a safe environment. So if the relationship you're in

(01:13:14):
is 1, where you have that you cognitively know you have that
safety, then like let your body feel what it's feeling.
And to get to the other side of knowing this person specifically
gave the example of their mom. I know my mom's action is wrong,
but don't feel. I guess it got cut off.
I know my mom's action is wrong,but don't feel.

(01:13:36):
Oh yeah. But like, don't feel that it is
like I feel like it's my mom andI should just believe everything
she says, right? Like, but I know what she's
doing is wrong. But like my body feels like my
mom's telling me this thing and I should listen to her, right?
I mean, that's so much of what my therapy has been about too.
And maybe that's not a safe environment to explore it.

(01:13:57):
So it might not be, I don't know.
And it actually reminds me aboutit reminds me of the listener
that wrote in about their friendand that's giving the free
massage that like that person might feel like they're about to
be in love because that experience of excitement and
anxiety is familiar to them. And like actual authentic

(01:14:18):
connection maybe isn't yet. Again, I don't know the specific
person there, but like we can project a lot of interpretation
on experience because it's familiar and we don't have
different information yet. And so especially with our
parents, they are the people that taught us everything.

(01:14:38):
Like they, they gave us the system that we're operating
from. And so it is so incredibly
difficult to actually register sometimes what they're doing
and, and like categorize it in some objective way, which is
what I think why we hopefully talk about it with other people.
We talk about our upbringing, wetalk about what we've gone
through so we can get that outside feedback, whether that's

(01:14:59):
in therapy or with a friend, whatever.
It's it's that mirroring back tobe like, oh, whoa, what your
mom's doing is like pretty messed up.
Was she always that cold to you?Or was she always XY and Z like,
huh, OK, that doesn't seem like a really loving way to respond
to a daughter, but it feels loving to you.
I wonder, you know, what does that mean?
And getting that information is a cognitive process that then

(01:15:25):
you can borrow to help parent yourself again, to help educate
and like self soothe to go, OK, this feels like mom is doing
something really sweet. But actually, I know that she,
she's kind of being manipulativeright now.
Like your heart is really wants to be connected to her.
But you know that like, hey, this isn't going to go so well.

(01:15:45):
Like maybe we should do XY and Zinstead.
Obviously really random examplesof these things, but it, it's,
it's so important to figure out ways to like, understand how to
talk to yourself differently. And I think that the the
difference between like truth and knowing sort of happens
somewhere in between when you like have information enough to

(01:16:08):
start sensing that there could be a different way to interact
or to know something and like really honoring what's happening
in your body simultaneously. I actually really like what the
last thing you said of like thatthere could be a new way to
interact or a different way to interact.
Like that's maybe a good question for people to ask

(01:16:30):
themselves in those moments too,of like, OK, I'm feeling this
dissonance between my brain and my body, like explore that.
And one of the things you can doto explore it is like, what
would I usually, how would I usually respond to this
situation? And then is there a different
way I could respond 'cause I feel like something I worked on

(01:16:50):
a lot was like, let me change the pattern and changing the
pattern can help my body feel safer here.
So like, what is, what are some other options for how I can show
up? And then which one of those
feels more aligned with what's going on?
I don't know. It takes a lot of work.
I mean, all of what I'm saying was done with the steady hand of

(01:17:14):
a therapist on my, on my brain and on my, on my back.
So, yeah, I, you know, I, I would say to this person that
like, that's work that for me pretty much could only happen in
therapy, but hopefully some of what we're saying helps.
I feel like one of there's like one in between step that helps
me sometimes. So it's like okay mom, mom does

(01:17:36):
X, mom has XYZ pattern behavior I've tolerated my whole life.
Then you hit of and I always respond to it in this way.
And then I reach some level of understanding, OK, maybe this
actually isn't that healthy and This is why it's causing harm.
Intellectually, I get it. Emotionally, I'm not there,
which is that space we're talking about.

(01:17:56):
And when you talked about like, doing something different, I
think sometimes if I don't even feel there yet, it's like a huge
accomplishment even be like, well, I'm just gonna do nothing.
I'm just gonna just like, forgetlike the thing I am gonna do.
I'm just gonna decide to not do the thing I usually do.
And that that'll is hard enough.And just being like, OK.
Usually when she's screaming at me and throwing stuff, I start

(01:18:21):
cleaning up and kissing her buttand trying to walk on egg shells
to make sure that like the violence stops.
And I don't know what the, the, the healed part is supposed to
do in the future, but for right now, I'm just gonna not do those
things. And then like literally the do
nothing, then you're, you're doing nothing.

(01:18:41):
And then in its place, all you really have is how it makes you
feel. All it really has is I'm, I'm
not gonna react. I'm not gonna, I don't know,
Maybe later on down the line youlearn to leave the house or you
learn to speak up for yourself or you learn to show up in some
other way. But before then, it's just you
watching your mom throw a fit and you, there's no, there's

(01:19:02):
nothing to do other than feel how that feels.
And I feel like that's the innerchild moment of being like, wow,
I'm so fucking sad watching this.
I'm so terrified. Like I'm so disappointed.
And I don't have to know what the action is yet, but I'm just
going to sit and not do the things I usually do and just
really feel this is terrifying or upsetting or just
disappointing or heartbreaking. And like it's like a maybe 3

(01:19:25):
modes. The switch is on, the switch is
neutral, and then the switch is off or something going in
another direction. Really good point.
Yeah, I totally agree. OK, I really liked this one
question and I feel like I have experienced this.
So I would love to know from a therapist perspective what's
going on and what to do about it, what to do about it.

(01:19:49):
This person said what to do whenI feel that I'm not truly honest
in therapy and not really progressing, which like, yeah, I
have been in therapy for a really long time and I've
definitely gone through periods where I don't feel like I'm
progressing and also periods where I'm like.

(01:20:09):
Do I just know the right thing to say?
You know by now, 'cause I've been like working on this stuff
for for so long, I can just present correctly.
I feel like that's what this made me think about.
So anyway. Carter, what do you think when
you were so Jess, when you're relating to it, you you think
about the dishonesty being more like I'm performing a little
bit. Or yes, are there other ways?

(01:20:30):
Yes. OK, that's how I think about it.
But tell me, tell me the ways this shows up.
Yeah. I mean, that's interesting to
hear you say that because that that adds some like context and
some feel around like some of the reasons why someone might be
dishonest in therapy because, you know, performing is a form
of dishonesty. It's not like a malicious thing.

(01:20:51):
It could be. But you know, what you're
talking about isn't. And I mean, my, my first very
simple advice here is to be honest, there are so many, there
are so many different kinds of therapists and so many different
be styles. And you might find that your

(01:21:12):
particular therapist isn't goingto groove with this.
But I feel like some of the mostimportant, powerful, helpful
things that have happened for meas a client in therapy, and the
most kind of like energized spaces I'm in as a therapist are
when someone's like, this isn't working for me.
And I'm basically like lying, orI've been hiding this or I hate

(01:21:36):
therapy or I'm bored or yeah. Say that to your therapist you
encouraged. Me to have conflict with my
therapist, yeah, basically had avery civil fight because she was
like, I was like, I feel so completely misunderstood by you
and I was just going to quit andleave, I think.
And Carter, like, talked me through, yeah, basically having

(01:21:59):
mature conflict with my therapist.
And now I fucking love her because we got to a new level of
understanding. Yeah.
I was. I was so ready to write her off
and just be like, wow, you got me so wrong.
It makes me hate you. And then it was really fucking
uncomfortable. And we kind of had this
conflict, but that brutal honesty, kind of meta honesty of

(01:22:20):
just being like, I'm, I'm feeling plateaued here.
Or. So you're saying that they
should just show up and be like,I feel like I'm not being honest
in here. Yeah, if you can tolerate that,
I think you know an example thatyou just gave Caroline of, of
feeling like you're misunderstood.
I think that happens so often and there are, there are some
therapists I don't respect. I will say that like I that

(01:22:43):
maybe would not tolerate that conversation well or or really
tolerate much interpersonal backand forth.
I'm trained in relational psychodynamic interpersonal
therapy. So it's about the relationship
of the therapy itself mattering.And to feel like you can't be
honest in there sets you up for it to not be a space where you

(01:23:06):
are gonna make any progress or feel known and and also feeling
like you're misunderstood and your therapist doesn't like you.
You should not tolerate that experience.
That doesn't mean you leave. You might need to if you feel
like, oh whoa, actually they're doing some disrespectful things.
Therapists aren't perfect, but trying to say it out loud and be

(01:23:27):
like, yo, I, I think that you are seeing me this way and I
don't actually feel that way about myself.
You might learn about a way thatyou're presenting yourself that
you're not aware of and get somereally amazing feedback from
your therapist about maybe how your anxiety's showing, showing
up in the room or how maybe you spoke about something and they

(01:23:48):
missed it. But you get to then talk about
that, 'cause you, why would thistherapist know anything about
who you are other than how you bring yourself in the room?
And so they may have a sense that you're being inauthentic
already. They may have a sense that you
don't feel comfortable and be wondering about that when you
leave. And getting to actually say it
out loud is an opportunity to have a better relationship with

(01:24:09):
them and for them to do a betterjob serving you, which is why
they're there and for you to learn about yourself and how you
show up in relationship. But when it comes to being like
actually actively dishonest, maybe you don't want to talk
about something that matters. And I don't mean that in like a
you need to do better kind of way, but it matters also to the

(01:24:31):
like, probably why you're there to begin with.
And if you're being, if you don't feel like you're allowed
to talk about something that is important to you or you feel
like you have to be a certain way, my guess is that that might
be showing up in other parts of your life and causing

(01:24:53):
difficulties. Whether that be because you're
in a job that doesn't feel authentic or you're fake in your
relationships, or you feel like you can't be your true self, or
you have some addiction problemsor some things that you're
hiding that you're really ashamed of.
And like, that might be the point of showing up every week.
It might take you like a year, to be honest.

(01:25:15):
But I do think that it's important to know that that's on
the table that like that's that's probably why you should
be talking to a therapist. So it matters.
I think that's spot on. What about when somebody feels
like they're not progressing, Like they've been honest and
they've been doing the work and maybe they've been in therapy

(01:25:36):
for a few years and it plateaus?Like to me, I feel like that's
just natural. Is there anything wrong with
that? Like I think sometimes people
are like, do I still? I guess a good question is also
like, do they still need to be in therapy?
My therapist, here's my update. My EMDR therapist just ended

(01:25:57):
things with me because she was like, you don't need this
anymore. And I was like, I'm pretty sure
that I do actually. I think that I need to see you
more please. I didn't say that I actually
agreed with her. The last few sessions I felt
like plateaued and just like it might still be helpful for me to
go to my talk therapist. But this type of therapy served

(01:26:20):
me for a time and we agreed likemaybe it's done and cool but it
definitely felt weird and I feeldiscomfort around it 'cause I'm
like, what now? Anyway?
So I just feel like talking a little more about those plateaus
or those periods when like maybeyou just need something

(01:26:41):
different. Yeah, I mean, I think this is
part of why I love working, not just as a therapist, because I
think people do need other things too.
It's not the answer to everything and doesn't need to
be the answer forever. And a great therapist will be
able to say like, I don't think you need this anymore.
But also great therapist will beable to pivot with you too,
depending on what it is you're needing.

(01:27:03):
But I, I think I want to speak to progress itself and this idea
of like, am I progressing? Am I like, am I fixed?
I feel like those two questions feel like they're, they can
often be similar or asked in a similar spirit.
And I think I want to say first of all, that my belief is that
like our, what we should be developing is like a closer

(01:27:26):
relationship to ourselves. And there's so many different
things that are in the way of ushaving a close and intimate
relationship with ourselves. That can be attachment trauma,
it can be systemic trauma, it could be that we don't know
where to start or we have like an intolerable anxiety in our
bodies and we don't know what todo with it.
There's so many things and thoseare all reasons to be in therapy

(01:27:49):
and to explore. But we we don't always need to
find progress. We need to find relationship
with ourselves. And I love going to therapy so
that I have a space where I'm diving deep and reflecting on
like what my soul is up to and what my heart is asking and not
just about like, is my anxiety good this week or bad this week?

(01:28:13):
Am I different or am I not? Like those questions can be so
helpful when your life is maybe run by anxiety.
But I also think that like once you get to deal with the big
major trauma or you get some information about how to manage
that anxiety or you, you know, talked enough about that one
relationship that was bothering you, there's opportunity to just

(01:28:35):
you have a place that like you, you get to expand your edges and
become more of who you are and figure out what that is.
And therapy is like a beautiful place to learn how to be in
relationship with you and also to have like a really beautiful,
authentic relationship with another person that's like
witnessing and holding you. And it doesn't have to be about

(01:28:55):
progress. And you also may be having a
plateau and you may also feel like actually you're with the
wrong therapist and that therapist doesn't really get you
and doesn't know what kinds of questions to ask to allow you to
get deeper or reflect back more complexity.
So it's it's complicated. It's complicated.

(01:29:17):
But again, maybe talk to your therapist about it more like,
you know, and say, like, I don'tthink this is that fun anymore.
It's not interesting. I'm not crying anymore.
Like, what does this mean? You know, like.
I'm crying money back. There have been tears in weeks,
Barbara. Make me cry, bitch.

(01:29:37):
I'm one thing I really like the idea of like getting to connect
more with yourself instead of like, tabulating.
Yeah, I totally get on the like,am I an enlightened perfect
person yet or not? Like it's like a score.
But I've definitely hit plateausbefore and I think it's so
legitimate to be like, I love therapy, therapy's great.

(01:29:58):
And also I'm not doing it right now.
Like that's legitimate. There's plenty of reasons why
and I've multiple times with a given therapist been like, I'm
just going to take a break rightnow.
Maybe it's financial, maybe it'semotional, maybe you're not
feeling what you want to feel intherapy, maybe feel plateau,
whatever the fuck. You take a break and be like,
I'll reach out when I want to and if yeah, when they have an

(01:30:18):
opening in their schedule, you go back.
I've done that multiple times with the therapist and I did
that a while with one therapist who I'd seen for years and
years. She was amazing.
She changed my life. I felt these plateaus.
I'd take a break. I don't really feel like I don't
know. I don't.
I feel like I'd know what you'regoing to say to me kind of
thing. I'd go back when there's a life
crisis and I'd, you know, say, you know, this relationship, I'm

(01:30:40):
having a hard time and I know what you're going to say.
You're going to tell me to do this.
You're going to tell me to do that, You're going to tell me to
do that. And she would be like, yes, that
is what I'm going to say. And I was, and it was that space
of being like, so intellectually, I know you're
teaching, but but there but I was still experiencing on this
distress in my life. And after I did that, like

(01:31:00):
taking a break from therapy, going back, knowing what she'd
say, she agrees, OK, pay $300.00.
I eventually just stopped going.And I'm maybe a year or two
later realize like I needed a new therapist.
And I, I've done this. I think I've seen three
therapists long term. And I'm a big proponent of like
having different teachers in life.

(01:31:21):
And it does not mean that this therapist didn't understand me
anymore. It does not mean she didn't
change my life and wasn't amazing, but it's like, think
about it. There's multiple friends you can
have in life who will influence you and help you grow.
There's multiple teachers who will have an influence on you.
There's different television shows and movies that will speak
to your heart depending on whereyou are in a life stage.

(01:31:42):
And I think that you, I think that you can find an amazing
teacher and an amazing guide whowill, you might learn all they
have to teach you at that life stage.
And I'm there. It was like that became really
clear to me when I was like, I was still experiencing the same
pains in my life that I wanted relief from.
But I'd, I'd I'd heard all this one person had to say about it

(01:32:07):
or I'd heard everything they have to say about it from their
approach. And I needed, you know, I needed
to like read a book by a different writer in a different
writing style. And I found a therapist now who
like, we're tackling things fromsuch a different angle.
And it was hard to even rememberthat there's other ways for
multiple smart people to talk about the same thing in multiple

(01:32:29):
helpful ways. And there's no ranking system
and there's no hierarchy. And it doesn't mean that
therapist was worse or anything.It just means like I was ready
to hear it approached in a different way.
Like, you know, one person is going to bring their what to do
to this episode. And I'm always going to like
think about it in certain ways. And Jess is always going to
think about it in certain ways. And harder will always think

(01:32:50):
about in certain ways and just like mixing up like I I am a big
proponent of like you might have.
You might need a new teacher right now.
Second opinion, it's like even with doctors, even with doctors
where there's a very specific science and therapy too, there
is science to it. Like there's a very specific
science that these doctors are practicing and there's very

(01:33:12):
specific medications. And if, if this, then this is
like how it goes, but people still get second opinions on if
they're going to have this majorsurgery or they just want to
hear it from someone else and get, you know, get it reviewed
by someone else. It's the same thing.
It's like they're at the end of the day, everybody is just a
person. It's just one person with one

(01:33:33):
background and one perspective. And then the other thing really
quick with that is that I think agree 100% with what you're
saying about different people. And then there's also different
types of therapy. And like, I love Carter, how
you've talked about, you know, therapy, non traditional
therapy. That's like with being creative
and outside of the the like one-on-one talking context.

(01:33:56):
And for me, I spent a long time in talk therapy and then my talk
therapist recommended that I do EMDR, which is a different
approach. Like there's we had made a ton
of progress in a certain way. And then it was just like
exactly what Caroline said. Like I know what you're going to
tell me. It's already your voice is in my
head. I know all the thoughts I can

(01:34:18):
possibly have about this and allthe conversation I can have with
you about this, but I'm on and like there's still some block.
Yeah, I'm still. Yeah, but I still do have a
block. Yeah.
And that's why she was like, whydon't you try this?
And it did do wonders. It did do its job.
And now that's, you know, done for me.
And like that, I've finished that phase and we'll see what's

(01:34:38):
next. And so it doesn't have to look
one way the whole time. Totally.
And talk therapy in and of itself, I mean is like you're
saying it's limited to like somepeople don't like to talk, some
people don't know how to talk, some people don't have the
experience of putting words to their emotional experience.
And so going into therapy in andof itself and just talking is

(01:35:02):
weird. And that being one-on-one, like
it's very specific to our western white culture.
Like it it's it's born out of a certain place.
And so if you need something else, that's very important to
listen to. And they're also, I think both
of you are speaking to this too.Like there's we have different
parts of self that maybe are gonna need different things.

(01:35:24):
The artist in me needs somethingreally different out of therapy
than the part of me that's like wounded in attachment, you know,
like there's, there might be times and moments where I'm
going for support and help because of those different parts
calling out to me in certain ways.
And our bodies also have to process what we are trying to

(01:35:48):
heal. And so I mean, like you were
just saying, Jess, like the ideaof doing EMDR is so helpful
because it, it like gets your brain and your body integrated
and involved doing dance therapyor art therapy.
Like it actually changes the wayyour brain is processing
something because your body getsto be included in a way that I
think cognitively. I mean, if you just stay up here

(01:36:10):
in the cognitive realm and you're just talking, you may
actually totally miss the sensational experience of the
thing that you're talking about if you don't have practice
learning how to get down in there. 100%.
Yeah, and some therapists will know how to get you there and
some will not, and it doesn't matter.

(01:36:30):
You may also just want to go take a painting class instead
and like that could heal a part of you too, so there's just no
one way. Yeah.
Carter, can you tell us where tofind you?
I, like I said, I'm going to be hosting some classes in DC.
If you're ADC person, I'm hosting the Artist's Way

(01:36:52):
starting next week at Femme Fatale.
I'm also going to be hosting a class through the Smithsonian
that's an art journaling class to explore who you are through
art. So that's happening in April and
I'll be hosting some other things in DC and then some
classes online, another, anotherversion of The Artist's Way
happening virtually and some other stuff coming that I think

(01:37:16):
the best thing to do is to stay in touch with me, probably by
finding me through my e-mail, which is not what a lot of
people say these days. But the best way to do that is
like go on my website and you can subscribe to my e-mail list
and keep up to date with like what those events are.
I kind of try to stay off Instagram unless someone asks me

(01:37:37):
to use it. And I have a Substack newsletter
that I'm working on. So both places can be places
that you follow along with what I'm up to.
And I would love for people to be part of my virtual classes.
It would be so fun. And if you're here in DC, we
could meet. Yeah.
And 01 other thing I forgot to say, beyond the classes, I also

(01:38:03):
have an option to just book timewith me, not as a therapist, but
kind of like in office hours. If you wanna talk about
something, if you have a question about anything that
we've said or you just like feellike it would be interesting to
talk, that's an option that you can book through my website.
I love collaborating with peopleon like kind of creating a
consultation or or a coaching package to do some work that

(01:38:26):
feels like really specific and tailored to to you.
So often times that has maybe a writing component to it.
If you want to explore a little bit of what's going on for you
through writing. I've done a lot of work around
body image and relationship to food and movement and so like if
you want to chat in any way, I love getting to like create
something specific so you can reach out to me or book time

(01:38:47):
with me on my website as well. I love it.
Thank you for being here. All the info will be in the
episode description. Thank you for joining on our
podcast. It's been so fun.
It's been amazing. We're sitting in the dark right
now. It has been.
And we took you for so long. But thank you for sharing your
heart and your brain. And you know, I love your butt,

(01:39:08):
too. Yeah.
Objectively good. But do we think, yeah, yeah, I
can't see it, but I feel it. I feel it in my body.
That's the way I want to professionally laud you.
Thank you. And I think we did it.
Hessica, take us home. Follow Carter.
Honestly, don't follow her, not Instagram, but find her.

(01:39:30):
You can go to her website. All of it's in the description.
Find us, give us a review maybe,maybe this is a good episode for
reviews and for sharing. This is a good episode for
everything. I thought this was a great
episode. I'm going to pat us all on the
tush and say job well done ladies.
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
I've been listening to you guys in my bathroom all the time and

(01:39:52):
elsewhere. But mostly, mostly whenever we
do be in bathrooms. With the bathroom, I'd say.
Just a good time. Do I wake up and listen to you
guys? And it's really fun to get to be
here and chat with your audience, who I know loves you
guys a lot. So thank you for trusting me.
Oh no, I know. I hear it from them.

(01:40:13):
Out in the world. I'm glad they're telling you
they're. Talking shit behind us, behind
our backs, on the street. No.
Love you, it was the best. We'll see you next week guys.
Bye. Let's fucking rock this cock, as

(01:40:36):
they say in therapy.

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110. Ask A Therapist: Attachment Styles, Manifestation, and Friend Drama | Featuring Carter Umhau

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}110. Ask A Therapist: Attachment Styles, Manifestation, and Friend Drama | Featuring Carter Umhau