112. Hater Hour: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome, Leaving Mormonism, and Making Adult Friendships | ft. Prince Abi Our Editor! - Not For Everyone

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It's kind of magic to me, the way that acquaintance ships can
turn into friendships, because those things feel very
different. And sometimes you have an
acquaintance relationship that you're like, this could only
ever be acquaintance. Maybe it'll just be
acquaintance. Let it be acquaintance for a
year, or two years, or three years, and then boom, one day
you wake up and it's a fucking friendship.

(00:30):
Hi sweeties, this is not for everyone.
And I am your host, Abby the editor, and I'm here with my
darling little Angel baby Caroline that.
Was really sweet. Welcome back guys.

(00:51):
This is a hater hour, which really just means that Jess is
on vacation, I think. So it's me and whatever I choose
to do. And what I choose to do is to
bring on the one, the only the Prince, the.
Prince. The Prince, Yeah.
Do we need to acknowledge the name Prince got off the bat?

(01:14):
I asked people to write in with questions they wanted Prince
Abby to answer, and one of the honestly, the thing they're most
curious about is why you're Prince, why you're called
Prince. Yeah, so this is a long and
complicated. Story is it?
Yeah. Oh.
It's because I hail from the Isle of Farmington, nestled in

(01:36):
the valley of the Wasatch Mountains.
What? Yeah.
Where? What are you saying?
Where I was a middle child. Oh, a girl middle child.
Is this a real story I thought? This is a real story, I thought.
I came up with Prince. I'm just kidding.
I'm. Oh my God, you.
See how easy it is to gaslight me?
Yeah. Yeah.
Wow. I was like, that's crazy.
Yeah. People in my small town of

(01:57):
Farmington. So to be clear, that's not where
you're from, right? I am from Farmington.
Oh, OK. Farmington, UT No, Caroline just
called me Prince one day and yeah.
Was it in audio? Was it in text?
I think it was probably over text.
I call a lot of people Princess,and I was gonna call you
Princess, but I was like, there's something about that

(02:19):
that's not right. I feel like you're more, I'm, I
feel like you are someone's son.I'm not saying you're my son,
but I do feel like you're more of a Prince.
Yeah, I just called. It just feels right to me.
My nicknames for people don't usually they're just a feeling.
There's not that much more to them.
But I will say, 'cause I was thinking about this question
when people wrote in about it and unrelated to calling Abby

(02:46):
Prince, Abigail, Jess and I refer to each other as brother
Kings and. Yeah, like you haven't done that
for a while though. We just do it.
Privately, sometimes I under private text.
Yeah, sorry, can't that that's okay.
Gosh, you guys have a chat without me?
So do you and I, but I think it worked out really.

(03:08):
I say that's a little bit of kismet.
It's like we've got the kings, we have Prince.
I saw Jess on Instagram just named our three-way chat the
Monarchy and that feels really sweet.
I think it's funny because I wasthinking about the nickname
Prince and I was also thinking about how because I'm a
freelancer, I have multiple bosses.

(03:28):
But then I was also like, sometimes I refer to my bosses
as my clients. Yeah, that is a weird dynamic.
It's like you in a way you're the the freelancer is the boss.
You should be kind of like the boss.
I should be king. You are king.
But then also there's a weird noI I think that's like I also.
Like have to do what you guys prefer.
And so it's like I'm taking direction.

(03:50):
I can't just be like no. I think it's a weird, a really
weird balance with freelancing 'cause you are the CEO of your
company and you are also providing a service.
I think that's something a lot of people struggle to strike the
balance with. I felt a lot of that in a
certain certain different jobs Ihad.
But how do you people are reallyinterested?

(04:10):
OK, I'm gonna pause real quick. We have so many questions from
you guys, a lot geared towards Prince.
We're gonna just have Chitty chat convo.
We're gonna talk about our relationship, some hot Goss.
I actually don't have any Goss, but I bet we'll find some.
And our personal friendship. And also just getting Abby's
take on things. Abby and I are very dear friends

(04:33):
just because I think, well, she's hot and she's a Prince.
I love royalty. But also really smart, has a
great perspective on things verydifferent from mine or Jess's.
I think it's going to be really fun.
Fun addition to the pod. Oh.
My gosh, I hope so. It's a lot to live up to, you
know, as Princess have to deal. With yeah, this is regular

(04:53):
pressure for a Prince like you and I'm.
Yeah. So we're going to rattle through
some of these questions that youguys sent in.
And one that people wrote in a lot about was just curiosity
about how you balance your freelance work.
And do you want to share a little bit about like some of
the different jobs you do, work passions if there's a hierarchy

(05:14):
to them or priority, anything you feel like sharing?
It has like shifted so much overthe years, but I don't know
'cause I remember the question saying something like, how do
you get into freelancing? Well, somebody asked how did you
get into freelance writing? Somebody else asked how do you
freelance with confidence? In the beginning, there's a lot

(05:35):
of imposter syndrome. Yeah, imposter syndrome is
actually what you should nickname me, not Prince.
Prince Imposter? Yeah, that would be great.
Yeah. So I guess I'll just, like,
start at the beginning of my freelance career 'cause it has
been basically my career since 2019.
Maybe. But yeah, so I was in, I moved

(05:56):
to DC from Utah for grad school.I went to George Mason
University for my MFA in creative non fiction writing and
I moved into DCI, lived in Fairfax for two years.
But I moved into DC my last year.
And in that last year I was lucky enough to have gotten this
fellowship that made it so I didn't have to teach or like do

(06:16):
any writing center work. I just got to write and go to
classes and it was amazing. But I also found myself like in
need of more structure. And I went to this thing called
the Little Salon, which I wish was still a still an event, but
they used to just host in different people's like homes
around DC. Like there would be a reading,

(06:37):
somebody would play some music, there might be some other like
performance, but it very classic.
Salon. Yeah, it was very cool and I
wish it kind of went defunct in COVID sadly.
But anyway, when I was there, I just saw this.
This is so random. I just saw this woman across the
room and I was like, she seems cool.
Like they, I think they had announced her as a Co founder of

(07:00):
this nonprofit. And I was like, she sounds
really cool. And my mom, throughout my whole
life, she's been like a CFO of acompany and for decades, you
know, she always told me that she got tired of reading resumes
where people were talking about how much her company could help
help them. And she wanted, she was drawn to

(07:22):
the people who were talking about how they could help her.
And so I always, I just had it in my head.
I was like, I'm gonna go up to that that Lady, talk to her
about her job and see how I can help.
Wow. And great advice.
Yeah. So I just literally, literally
did. I just asked her what she was up
to. This was just based on vibes,
literally vibes from across the room.
You were like, something is drawing me to this lady.

(07:43):
Yes. You didn't know anything.
I'm. Sure, they said like you're the,
she was the nonprofit leader or whatever.
I think they must have 'cause I was like, I'm gonna, I clocked
in on her anyway. And so I talked to her and she
was they were gonna have a gala.It was, it's this literary non
profit in DC called the Inner Loop.
It's really cool. They do different readings every
month and just have local writers come and read their

(08:05):
work. But yeah, they were about to
have a gala and she said that they were looking for
volunteers. So I did it.
You just volunteered? Yeah, I.
Just volunteered and then and then I, I just got close with
one of the Co founders and we started working on podcasting
together 'cause it was somethingI was interested in.
I just helped her produce episodes and yeah, then COVID

(08:27):
hit. Anyway, that's kind of a that
that's like a long story to say.Basically just like, I don't
know if anyone's trying to get into freelancing.
I think that's my biggest adviceis to find organizations that
you think are super cool and just like ask them if they need
help. It's worked for me like a
million times. Yeah, I don't even think that's
like a I mean, I think that's amazing advice.

(08:53):
The, the, the lessons I hear from that are #1 if you really
want to get into a new field where you don't have, or a new
arena or a new organization where you don't have the resume
to make yourself competitive, offer to work for free for some
amount of time. You can, you can do it for a
short, you can do it for one event.
You can volunteer for this, likemake it fit your financial
needs. If you're willing to work for

(09:14):
free, you can get that foot in the door.
It can be worth a lot and a lot of other people won't do that.
A lot of other people won't be willing to take a step down
financially. Sometimes it doesn't work for
them, but if you can make that work somehow you can get in the
door. Other lesson I take away from
that, what do they say? Like 80% of jobs are never
posted about. They're never.
Posted online. Like who you know?

(09:36):
They're filled some other way. They're filled like that
volunteer position was never posted about somewhere.
Or, you know, people hire internally.
Most jobs are never even posted online.
Yeah, yes. And also you just got to like
bluff sometimes. You kind of do.
Yeah, I I actually think I have more or less lied my way into

(09:58):
every career I've ever had. That's.
What I was going to say, I mean,you kind of did the same thing
with interior design. Totally.
Yeah. You've talked to that woman
right in Ohio, and you're like, I'm interested in this.
Can I help you? I asked to just be her
assistant. She was like, you shouldn't be
my assistant, you should design things.
And, and the reason she even offered me that is because she
was one person running a boutique design business, not a

(10:20):
huge firm, which is part of why I contacted her.
Someone at a huge design firm would never speak to me like I
would have to have an interior design degree.
But I knew, you know, one woman running her own firm who I
really liked and she had four kids at home.
I was like, I know that bitch needs help.
I know she needs help. And yeah, I think I've done that
with like everything and I and Idon't think I know that some

(10:43):
people will be really freaked out hearing that of like, apply
for shit you're not qualified for, talk to people and
volunteer help even if you have no idea what you're doing.
So that's gonna scare the crap out of some people.
But I also think it's what almost like all successful
people have done. I don't actually think it's that
rare. I think it's like what you have

(11:04):
to do. Yeah, and I mean, there's
obviously still a lot of like hustling in it too.
It's not like this led to money immediately, right?
I was just an intern for a little while while I finished
out my grad program. But over the years, like I just
kept those connections, kept that relationship.
I went through like different full time jobs that I just
hated. Tell us when you really hated.

(11:26):
Here's The thing is that like I loved the people at the jobs and
so I don't want anyone working there to think that I like hated
my experience of being with those people.
But you know, I was just like anadmin assistant at like a, a
language school for a while, which meant I basically had like
2 tasks per day. And this was during COVID.

(11:47):
And I would complete them and then I would stress myself out
about doing nothing for the restof the day.
Yeah. And I remember my husband Jake
being like, why don't you write in this time off that you have
nothing to do? And I'm like, cuz there's going
to be an e-mail that pops up randomly that takes me out of
the flow. And I always I had just some
stupid excuse for like why I couldn't make a life work around

(12:09):
it. But do you think that was really
a stupid excuse, or do you thinkthat was like, true to just how
your brain works when you need to like, work creatively that
you can't do erasing for an e-mail?
Yeah, no, you're right. It, it is.
It's just how it works. And I think, yeah, obviously
that's probably what pushed me towards freelancing in general.
And so I got out of that by going back to teaching, which is

(12:30):
when, yes, this is. We're speaking to a professor.
I guess you are. I mean, I'm not a pH.
D you were an adjunct professor,right?
Yeah, I would. That's a professor.
Yeah, I've done. That's so hot.
You shouldn't say that classes. Yeah, professor.
I mean, forget Prince, you're a professor.
That's crazy. That's so true.
Yeah. Why haven't I been asking you to
call me by my real? Time.

(12:50):
And why are you pretending like you're not a professor?
Because I haven't done it in like 3 years.
I don't know, whatever. Yeah, well, that was, here's my
problem with being a professor is that that's where imposter
syndrome comes in for me. I bet 'cause I look like a baby.
Tell them how old you are. First of all.
I actually don't for a moment. If you've seen images of Abigail

(13:14):
on our YouTube or on our Instagram, just pause for a
moment and take a guess at how old Abby is.
OK, now Abby, tell them how old you are.
I'm 31 years old, I'll be 32 in September.
So that's 16 years older than everyone was guessing in their
heads. Yeah, I think you look.
Very, very young and it really is has actually been a big
problem for you professionally. It really has.

(13:35):
Yeah, I've been, yeah. It's difficult in teaching
because the college students look my age.
They think that I'm their age. They think I have nothing to
offer them. You could play a high school
student. Easily.
Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome.
Have somebody. Cast me in a in a film.
That'll be my next venture. Yeah.
Let's find a director who needs help.

(13:57):
Where are they? Yeah.
So that it was difficult. It took a really long time to,
like, gain authority. Like there's always a window of
time for teachers where they have to figure out how to how to
establish that authority. But for me it just seemed a lot
longer than my peers. Do you feel like you had to put
on like a different, like a a more extreme professional mask

(14:20):
in order to earn that 'cause youlooked so young?
Yeah. And I did it wrong.
Like the first time that I taught, I was just like, hi,
guys. I was like, Oh yeah, oh, it's
everything's chilling here. This is a really chill classroom
trying to. Relate too.
Hard. And so then the next semester I
was just like, OK, no. So wait, what did you do the
next semester that was more effective then?

(14:41):
I was just like, really for me bold in my communication where
instead of because I feel like the way that I talk to people is
like if a student was like, oh, I can't turn this essay in or,
you know, they have some dumb excuse or something and you can
just tell that they're bullshitting.
Like you can just tell, you know, I would be like, oh, you

(15:02):
know, no worries. Like take the weekend.
That was that was your first semester when you were being
chill and relatable, OK. Yes.
And then the second semester I would be more like, well, it
was, it's due today. So if you can't get it in,
you'll just we'll get some points off because that's what
it says in the syllabus that youshould have read.
Yeah, but I kind of forgot all of that.

(15:24):
So that I had taught in. You forgot how to do that.
I had taught in 2018 and 2019 and then after this full time
job experience, I went back to teaching in 2022 and I kind of
forgot and I was. Like I went, I kind of did the
like, you know, it's. Just a chill classroom because
it was like post COVID and therewas all these rumors about how

(15:45):
students kind of like regressed in a lot of ways, which I found
to be true. They just like forgot how to
exist in a classroom. It was like.
Several people literally your behavior in the classroom or
just like how to pass a course. Both yeah, they it was really,
really odd like multiple people just failed, which was not I was

(16:07):
not used to that, you know, I'm not a hard grader, you know,
like turn in your work. I'm not gonna, I'm not going to
give you like AC plus because you got some grammar wrong, like
that's not my style. But multiple people just failed
because they just didn't do anything, anything.
It was just a really weird time.And anyway, this it's a longer

(16:27):
story, but I ended up leaving that and started freelancing at
a local magazine again. I knew the editor I had I had
done freelance articles for her while I was teaching.
Writing. You were writing.
You were writing journalism. I was writing some journalism.

(16:48):
You were writing some journalismdown.
And it was because, like, a friend had introduced me to the
editor. So again, it was just like
literally networking. Yeah.
And that is, I do wanna emphasize.
I feel like there's certain people who I think get really
discouraged when they hear that.I know.
But I wanna, I think it is important to emphasize,
especially for like a young audience listening who's in the

(17:11):
workforce, that that is gonna behow you get most of your jobs.
Especially if you're freelancing, like you just kind
of build a name, build connections, and then different
people will reach out to you when they have a need that needs
to be filled. Yeah.
And I think that the N word networking, wow, sorry.

(17:33):
Well, whatever I think the word networking.
OK, hold on. That word freaks people out a
lot. Yeah, and.
Because it is. It is annoying.
I'm like, I'm going to go to this happy hour.
What does it? Mean even and I, I did hear
somebody put it well, one way, maybe it was Jess.
I don't even remember if it was Jess, but just being like

(17:54):
networking is just socializing and the people that you're most
likely to actually successfully get a job or get a connection or
get a lead from is someone that you genuinely do enjoy talking
to. So, you know, there's plenty of
people where networking doesn't go very far with me.
Like we just don't have a natural connection, but follow
the places that you do. It should feel a lot like just

(18:16):
connecting with people. Yeah, for every connection that
I made, there was like 50 that Ididn't make.
Burned to the ground? Yeah, like.
That's just part of it, I think.So anyway, I'm sorry this has
gone on for so long. This is what I do in therapy
too. Just the context of everything.
Just. Yeah, I have trouble with that
going like 12 years back, yes. I'm like, I don't even know how

(18:38):
helpful this is, but basically to Fast forward a little bit, I
ended up at the magazine for probably the whole of 2023.
I was mostly with the magazine while I was editing your
podcast. Oh, we knew each other, yes.
Oh, I guess I should talk about how I made a podcast.
OK, so while I was teaching, I also made a podcast with my

(19:00):
friend Melissa. We were just interested in, like
little, I don't know, like the little stories in our own
backyards that kind of get overlooked.
And a lot of it was like climatestories.
Climate change. Yeah, 'cause we're, we were both
very interested and devastated at the state of all things

(19:21):
climate. And so we just, yeah, we did a
bunch of, we did a little series.
It's called We're Here. You can find it on.
Yeah, it's. Still audio places, right?
We're here. It does.
It exists so you can you can find it we'll.
Link it, we'll link. It I don't know how great my
audio editing was at that time, so but I have anyway that.

(19:42):
So that's another aspect I thinkof freelancing is that lots of
times you just have to like write yourself into the world
that you want to be in. Because because I made this
podcast, I learned how to edit audio, how to write scripts, how
to interview people, how to research, how to reach out to
people, you know, all these different aspects.

(20:02):
And then when you told me you were starting a podcast, I was
like, do you want help? Yeah, and that's that's all it
takes is like it. It is so funny how, yeah,
there's certain jobs where people really want to hire the

(20:22):
experience. They want to make sure you've
had such and such experience or credentials or official degree
in something. But there's a lot of jobs,
especially in freelancing where people are like, oh, is that
word in the title of your job? Great.
I'll take you like literally. That's kind of how I got into UX
design. I went to school for front end

(20:45):
development, which is not UX design.
And then the first job that I got in tech, the title of my
role, they called it a UX developer, which really doesn't
make any sense. Like you can be a UX designer or
a front end developer, a UX developer, Like no one really
says that, but whatever, they'rejust kind of idiots.

(21:06):
And that was the role they gave me and the title they gave me.
And then I ran into some guy at a barbershop who was hiring a UX
designer, and I was like, oh, I'm a UX developer.
And literally based on that, they were willing to speak to
me. And then I was like, oh shit.
We've been looking for one of you.
Looking for one of you never never heard anybody with that
title before. What is that?

(21:27):
But literally just like having, you know, and I learned enough
about design and I was willing to learn on the job.
And I was, you know, met these people who are flexible.
But, yeah, just being like, well, I've done some UX here it
is on my resume. You're like, I've edited a,
edited a podcast before. Yeah.
I think with freelancing a lot of the time and sometimes with
bigger jobs, like that's all it kind of takes.
Yeah. I I agree.

(21:48):
Sometimes. Sometimes.
I I think the freelance world specifically, I would say yeah,
like you just kind of have to give yourself the title and you
see that all the time with people on like Instagram, just
like creating their own jobs, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, just all of a sudden in their bio, they're just like,
oh, I'm a I'm a personal stylistand everyone's like, wow, style
me totally, you know you. Start posting about shit and

(22:10):
people like it. Yeah, basically.
I think it's really important toemphasize there's some, there's
some statistic, which I'll butcher, but the point I think
rings true, which is that the average woman will only apply to
a job if they feel they meet 100% of the job criteria.

(22:31):
And the average man, I don't know what the statistic is, but
you know, it ain't 100. I would say it's six or below.
So this this is a real thing, like, and I just want like the
young female listeners of this podcast to know that you're not
an asshole to fib your way into a job a little bit.
It's really what every man does.And it's also really reasonable

(22:55):
that you're going to learn on the job.
And if you have, I don't know, Ithink it's a certain combination
of being like, OK, I can fib my way into this role, but then I
am also going to kill myself over it.
I am going to get up to speed. That's very different than I'm
going to fib my way into this role and then I'm going to let
the company suffer because of that hiring decision.

(23:16):
You know what I mean? Think if you're up for the job,
you're up for the job. Yeah, I think so too.
And I wish that more like peoplehiring understood that as well.
I also think if I've made it sound like I was confident in
any of these steps, that would be a lie.
What what did we say? Imposter syndrome is my
nickname. I, Yeah, they, I was flubbing my

(23:36):
way through everything and. And it just has worked out
because I can do it. And I am, I would say sometimes
good at it. But yeah, when you're like
pitching yourself as this personwho knows all these things about
podcasting or writing or whatever, it can feel a little
bit like you want to be like, well, I'm, I'm good, but I'm not

(23:56):
like that good. So don't don't have too many
expectations for me, you know, And I feel like I had to learn
after a while to just be like, no, I can do it.
Yeah. I can.
Sure, there might be like bumps along the way, but I don't think
that's out of the ordinary for anyone.
I know. You know, it's so funny.
Like the people with the most confidence, I feel like have the
least competence. Yeah.

(24:17):
And then it's people who would like, what is that?
What's that bell curve about? Like, the more the higher your
intellect, the more your awareness of what you don't
know. And so the more more likely you
are to doubt yourself. Yeah.
Whereas like, what? What there's a concept for?
I can't remember what it's. Called Is it Dunning Kruger?
Yes, I think so. Yeah, I think so too.
Yep, Dunning Kruger effect. Yeah, cuz I was gonna say like
now having done the podcast withyou, it led me to some another

(24:41):
podcast contract. I think we we've talked about it
on this podcast before, the opportunist where I just help in
the background of that listen how I said that I helped produce
that show, OK? And help in the background of
that. In all of my experience
podcasting, I would say that there's definitely people who

(25:05):
are better writers than others that I've worked with.
And it's not like I'm sitting there going like, wow, this
person lied on their resume. I'm just being like, oh, this
script is gonna take a little bit more time to edit.
Yeah, you know what I mean? And.
Speaking from the other side of the desk.
And so that's what I'm saying isthat like as if I was the
writer, I would have been like, oh shit.
Like they're gonna tell. They're gonna know that I don't

(25:26):
have. That's so funny, the.
Experience. But no, it's just like the
script needs a little bit more work.
And you know, I bet what plays into that so much is like
whether or not you like working that with that person and how do
you believe in them. Like so much of hiring really is
like, who do you want to fuckingspend so many hours a day
interacting with? And I will go, you know, I had

(25:46):
to go through a lot of interviews to find video
editors. Finding a video editor is
really, really difficult becausevideo editing is kind of like
hiring someone to write a speechfor you.
It's like there's a lot of qualified speech writers, but
you need a speech writer in a certain style who can capture a
certain voice. Yeah.
And then in addition to that, you need somebody who you, I

(26:09):
need someone who I like. Like I do, yeah.
And. Gets it, and gets what you're
trying to communicate. Yeah.
So if there's stuff they have tolearn or like technical skills
they have to learn, I'm so much happier to work on that and work
on the training of that with somebody who, like, gets me.
We work together well. They have a good attitude.

(26:30):
Yeah, there's so many expert editors out there who I would
never fucking have on my team. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
It's personality. And that's part of why the
networking helps in an annoying way, because yeah, you get to
know them and you get to understand if this is something
you wanna keep doing with this person.
Which reminds me of the questionthat was like do oh it is

(26:53):
working together influence our friendship.
Yeah, somebody wrote in and saidLOL to this question.
Somebody wrote in and asked Abby.
One of the listeners asked do you sometimes feel like a third
wheel and is it weird to maintain a friendship while
working together? So I guess they're saying the
third wheel is like you third Wheeling to Jess and I.

(27:13):
I guess so, yeah. Like maybe while listening and
editing. I whatever you take from that,
I'm going to let you answer before I lol at that.
Yeah. I don't know if I've ever felt
like a third wheel. I mean, if anything, at least
when we started the podcast, youand I are.
We're closer than Jess and I were.
Yeah. Like Jess and I have a history,

(27:35):
but we weren't as close friends as you and I were when we
started. I didn't feel like there was
any. That's why the question made me
laugh. I was like why would Abby be
third wheel? I know it's just like, it's just
a different like work position. I guess I've just separated it
in my mind of like work versus friendship, right?
Cuz like, and also Jess lives inChicago, yeah.

(27:57):
So I can see why it sounds that way as a listener cuz all you
hear is like Jess and I chattingand then Abby chimes in.
But the reality is, like Abby and I live in the same city.
Basically the same neighborhood.Same neighborhood and and Jess
is away in Chicago. Yeah.
So it's never really, it hasn't bothered me in like the
friendship jealousy way, if that's how they meant it.

(28:20):
I will say when I'm like listening to conversations,
there are definitely times that I want to chime in and kind of
like wish I was in the room to be like, well, what about this?
Yeah. Or like this is how I
interpreted. It I like when you do.
Yeah. And so, yeah.
So sometimes I'll add it to the episode, but but I also haven't
done that as much lately because, I don't know, it
doesn't feel the same when you guys can't respond to like my

(28:43):
little takes on things. The last time I did it was when
you guys were talking about Wicked Yeah and I just added in
those takes cuz I was like, theydon't, they don't really need
responses. Yeah.
It's just like my opinions on the actors or whatever.
But if it was something like deeper about work or love or
whatever, it wouldn't feel as easy to add in.

(29:04):
Yeah yeah. Randomly, you know.
How is it for you working with afriend?
How is this also like freelancing like we were talking
about? It's like, I like the podcast
hired you, but also you're your own boss, but also you're
editing for like, I don't know, with a friend.
Yeah. How?
How's that? My boss, like if you could see

(29:27):
me like I would be like blinkingtwice like she's quite.
No, just kidding. I've had a really great time.
Honestly, like again, I feel like it's maybe, I don't know,
it's just somehow I've, I've just like immediately from the
get go I was like, I'm separating work from friends
because like we see each other so often.

(29:48):
I don't want to take it into ourfriendship.
Yeah. I feel like I've, I've had
experiences working with friendsin the past where it has gotten
in the way of like how we feel about each other.
And I just was like, pretty determined to not let that
happen again. Yeah, because I love you.
Oh my God, she said. I.
Said it out loud, you. Said it so many times, I say I

(30:10):
love you and Abby won't say it back.
But it's a lie. Actually, it's not a lie.
It's not a lie, it's but I also know it's not personal anymore
and I don't care. It's me being like chaotic and
in my head all the time and you say it and I'm like thinking in
my head like, oh, I hope I didn't hug her too tight.
I hope I. Oh gosh, I got to.
I got to go to the grocery storeafter this.

(30:31):
I stopped caring. If you say it back I don't give
a fuck. I love you.
Whatever you feel is not my business.
Fine, OK, I will answer the question now OK?
It was very stressful for me. Oh my gosh, I I actually had a
feeling you're going. To say, yeah, did you know that?
No, Well, I don't know. There's definitely been like

(30:52):
harder points. Well, there were harder points,
I think learning to work together.
I think that's true with anybodylike Jess and I learning to run
a podcast together. Like we had probably a year of
fumbling around in that and now it's like seamless.
And when you started, you joinedthe podcast, there was fumbling
around figuring out. I think that just kind of comes

(31:14):
with the territory. And I think there's more
fumbling when you have other relationships.
And now it's, it's been seamlessfor so long, but when, when we
were still figuring out like howto work together and everything
and even just like our editing process and all of it, I felt so
stressed for some reason. I felt like preserving the

(31:36):
friendship was my responsibility.
Not, not that you didn't care about it, but I felt like
because I was in the position, I'm not your boss, but in the
position of giving directives for the project we're working
on, I felt responsible for also,I felt like it was on me, you

(31:58):
know what I mean? Because it was like, it was
weird to give you directives andthat's not how we talk to each
other as friends otherwise. And it, it was weird, but it
also to me at least feels necessary.
I don't like working and trying to talk as a friend.
I don't let you know. Like we're both so anxious.
And if you don't have to do it if you don't want to and you

(32:19):
don't have to come over if you don't want to.
And I love you. But that would be so
inefficient. That would be fucking
intolerable. And I wouldn't respect either of
us to work like that. No.
So to me, it does. Maybe some people can work that
way, but to me, that doesn't actually feel authentic to work
that way. Yeah.
And it doesn't feel empowering to as like 2 professional,
mature adult women who own theirbusinesses.

(32:40):
And I'm. But it also felt so
uncomfortable giving you fuckinginstructions.
Yeah. And.
And if there was friction, I really felt like it was on me to
protect our friendship. And it I was it, it felt very
stressful to me for a while, just worrying about, yeah, the
risk of like and like. I did not want to damage

(33:04):
anything. Yeah.
No, I hear you. But now it feels great and I
don't even think about it. Yeah.
No, I think we really have hit astride in the last like year or
so. But that's The thing is like
that weird shit happens at work,Yes.
Like it's, it also will happen, Yeah.
And it's just completely learning different learning to
deal with that than I think it is ever in just having a

(33:25):
friendship. There's like a different dynamic
where I, I, I feel like I want to be more competent with you
than I would with like a boss ata full time.
Does that make sense? I had no idea.
I thought you would want to be more incompetent with me.
I. Don't know.
I think just because we know each other in so many different
ways. Like I wanna to me, that makes
me want to like, prove myself even more.

(33:47):
In a good way, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, cuz like it, Yeah, it makes me happy.
Yeah, it makes me get better. I think and like work harder and
figure out solutions rather thanjust being like whatever, I
don't care about this. Yeah, this.
Full time job, yeah, where there's 50,000 other workers.
I mean, that's kind of why I don't think I would take a job
with a friend really, is that there's such a or like I don't

(34:09):
really like doing. I mean, I don't really take
clients anymore for design anyway, but taking friends or
family clients, it's kind of stressful.
Yeah, cuz I'm like. You cannot pay me enough to
treat you as a client. Yeah, it's gonna be weird and
you're not gonna like it. I've actually heard advice from
a lot of designers saying like never fucking take a friend or

(34:31):
family as a client. But yeah, when you're starting
out, sometimes you don't have a choice.
Sometimes you have to, Yeah. And I, I actually, yeah, people
give me that advice all the time.
And I'm like, I honestly don't think I would do it with anyone
else. But not because this has been a,
because this has been a good experience.
I just think I've had bad experiences in the past.

(34:51):
Yeah. And I'm not really interested in
like finding my way through thatagain.
It takes a lot of finding your way through it.
I think it does take an additional effort.
I mean, I guess I'm kind of on the fence.
I'm trying to think if you were just a random hoe, if you
weren't Prince and you were justsome fucking random.
Kind of am Duke. I could have been.
I was an NPC in your life for a really long time.

(35:13):
We we told them how we met. Walked past each other on the.
Street, I know. Yeah, we can talk about.
It I'm tired of what we're talking about, let's let's
answer another question. People want to know how we met.
OK, do you want to go first or should I?
You go. OK, the Prince up.
So Once Upon a time I was working at the magazine that I
told you all about and my sisterrandomly sent me a video on

(35:40):
YouTube of this cute little girlin a headband.
And she was like, I think she lives in your neighborhood.
And so I was like, oh, OK, so I just, I looked at the video and
I was like, that is in my neighborhood.
Wow. But it was like you were
apartment hunting. That was the video I saw.
And then and so and I'm I'm not really like a YouTube person.

(36:02):
I really wasn't until I like came across your video and then
I was like, oh, she's funny. Let me see what what else she's
up to. And there was a couple design
videos. And so it just so happened that
the magazine I was working for, the edition that was coming out
was the theme of urban adulting.And I thought, how fun to, like,

(36:25):
pitch a article about designing rental spaces because that was
kind of what you were up to at the time, designing a rental
space, right? Yeah.
Yeah. And so I just reached out on
Instagram like a little freak and dirty little.
Prince. You were, you were just like, Oh
my gosh, like I can picture yourvoice thing.
And now like, Oh my gosh, yes. Like, I don't know, you're just,

(36:47):
you're like, wow, so sweet. Yeah.
Oh I wonder, I bet we can find our first ever Instagram DM.
Should I pull it up? Yeah, you pull it up.
OK wait, I found the Instagram message you wrote to me.
This is January 20th, 2022. You mean read it?
Yeah, this is OK. Wait.
You read your message and I'll read mine.
What's so fun too, is that this will show like how I spoke as a

(37:11):
freelancer 3 years ago. Oh yeah, I'm excited.
I'm like, wondering if I would change anything now.
OK. Hi Caroline.
My name. Pathetic.
My name is Abby, and I'm a writer for magazine.
I won't say the name. A local events and lifestyle
magazine. I came across your YouTube.

(37:32):
Weirdly, my sister in Utah sent it to me, and I basically binge
watched everything you made. Anyway, our next issue for the
magazine is about adulting, and I was wondering if you'd be
interested in an interview aboutdecorating and designing rental
spaces. I actually stand by that.
Yeah, that's great message. It's pretty cute message.
It's great message. I said hey Abby.

(37:54):
Wow, what a sweet message. I knew it.
Wow, what is wrong with me? I knew the wow wasn't wow.
Wow. Wow.
That's classic Caroline. Wow.
Wow. You start episodes like that.
Wow, wow, wow. I don't.
I don't. Know it's like a tick.

(38:14):
It's good. OK, you are so kind and a big
thank you to your sister. Yeah, shout out, Liv.
Shout out Liv heart eyes emoji. That sounds super fun.
I don't know. I don't know if I should put
super in a professional message that sounds super fun on.
Instagram. I'd love to exclamation point.

(38:34):
Let me know what you need from me.
Heart emoji. OK, desperate.
I think that's a little too manyemojis.
Like play, act, Jill, act like anyone has messaged you ever
before. Were you?
Were you really? Excited though, Do you remember
I? Think it was excited.
Like, wow, this is going to be amazing.
Or where you're just kind of like, oh, cool.
No, I think I was like, oh, that's sweet.

(38:56):
That's fun. Like I think, yeah, pretty much
like that. I actually vlogged a little.
There's a little bit of a. Vlog I remember.
It it's in one of my vlogs whereI'm like, oh, I'm going to meet
this girl who reached out and wants to interview me for this
thing. Yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah. And I'm then we met at a coffee
shop and you. Talked, I talked.

(39:18):
Yeah, this is my point of view. Yeah, this is your interview.
This is my point of view. So I was because I was nervous
because I was just like, it was one of those moments where I'm
like, I mean, I am doing this for work, but like, I think we
probably could be friends. Yeah.
But yeah, I feel like I'm alwayschatty, but not that chatty like
that. That was pretty chatty because
we were talking for I think we talked for like an hour before I

(39:39):
actually. Oh, yeah, question.
And then you were like, maybe weshould start the interview.
Yeah, But that was also great. But it was like, yeah,
connected. Yeah.
Cuz like we, it just flowed pretty naturally as far as I
remember. Cuz I remember in my head being
like, I got to start this interview, but I was just like,
oh, but we're talking about likesibling dynamics and.
And you told me my eyes were pretty and I was like stop your.
Eyes are pretty. I'm such a flirt.
Yeah. I've always been in love with

(40:01):
you. Yeah.
But yeah, so I thought that, I don't know, I just remember
being like, OK, cute. Like maybe we could actually be
friends after like, I I left feeling like, OK, that was like
a good a good deal. Yeah.
You know, like, you know, sometimes you leave these
situations and I was like, oh shit.
Like I did some weird stuff in there, but I actually didn't
feel that with you. So I was like, maybe we'll see

(40:22):
what happens. That's a good sign.
Yeah. I definitely didn't expect that
I was going to come away with a friend from that.
But I do remember specifically thinking, oh, that's one of very
few funny people I've met in DC Like, you were funny.
What? Yeah.
You know, you're funny. Oh, well, well, and that I was
very vividly remember being like, oh, she's funny.

(40:43):
And I don't think that many people are funny.
I guess I'm kind of a snob. Wow.
Yeah. Amazing.
But then we really ended up bonding.
Actually, the thing that broughtus together was like sexual
misconduct. Oh yeah, right.
Am I wrong? It took me a second.
Yep. So there was for this article
that Abby wrote, they had to do like a little mini photo shoot

(41:05):
to have images of me in the magazine.
And they were sending this photographer over to my
apartment to take photos of me decorating stuff in my
apartment. And Abby was on this e-mail
chain, and she was like, hey, yeah, do you want me to come
over and, like, supervise this photo shoot so it's not just you
and some man you've never met? And I was kind of like, who
cares? Whatever.
It's just going to be fine. It's going to be professional,

(41:25):
but sure, you can come. And then, holy shit, was I so
glad Abby came. This guy was so creepy.
He was. It was actually astounding me.
I feel like I was like, I was soready to be alone with a strange
man in my apartment. I was not scouring for
creepiness. And then, wow, he really brought
it. And he was like offering to take

(41:48):
extra photos for me for like, myown personal brand.
And I was like, OK. Sure.
While we're here, sure. Really into branding.
Yeah, and he made, didn't he make some kind of joke about
like, he's not going to do anything with these in his
basement or something? Oh my God, It was really weird.
And then and then afterwards, he's not really into branding.
What I realized is this guy offered to take these additional

(42:09):
photos for me for my personal website or to promote my own
side business or whatever, and he used them and held them over
my head. He wouldn't give them to me
until I, like, agreed to hang out with him.
And he was really, really creepy.
So I wouldn't agree to hang out with him.
And I eventually was just like, keep the photos.
Like, I don't give a fuck. I'm not hanging out with you.

(42:29):
Yeah. And he was obviously using them.
He was trying to use that as leverage.
I think this was like his. Oh, my gosh, he was so creepy.
And then Abby and I went and hung out with him.
I don't know why Like we all he like started or something.
Chat with us. He was like, I really liked the
vibe of all three of us. Let's get together.
And at the time, I was just kindof like, OK.
I don't think either of us had fully put it put words to it

(42:51):
yet. No, we didn't talk about him,
him specifically until. Well, we had never spoken
actually before. Like you, we you did the
interview, you came over, we didthe photo shoot and then I think
we all got a drink or something.And he was so bizarre.
He was just, he was really bizarre.
We also learned he had a live inlong term girlfriend, which made
his behavior even weirder. And he was really disrespectful.

(43:15):
And like we both got a weird vibe.
And at the end of this drink, hewent to the bathroom and Abby
and I were just standing there and I think you were like, Hey,
do you want to hang out? Just us.
Yeah, I was like, maybe next time it could be just you and
me. And you were, it looked like you
were so relieved, like I remember that you were like.
Yeah, yeah, because I thought hewas like your colleague and so I
wasn't gonna say how weird he made me feel.

(43:36):
No, yeah, I didn't know him, really.
I was so relieved to hear that. And then that, and then after
that. That was like the beginning of
our friendship. Yeah, yes, we we endured trauma
together. I will say one topic that I
think comes up on the podcast a lot is just this notion of like
making meaningful friends as an adult.
Yeah. And we we have done that,

(43:58):
Abigail. Three years, three years of
friendship as a vault in a new city with no in between
connections. And I was reflecting on that
like, what is the arc of that? I mean, I guess I've been
reflecting on the arc of building a deep and meaningful
friendship in adulthood. And the truth is that it just

(44:20):
takes so much more time than youthink it should.
I think it takes so much more time.
Even after a year of consistently hanging out.
I I I don't know when I would, Ifelt like, I don't know when
that benchmark was that I felt like, Oh, deep and meaningful
friend who knows me. But it, it's more than just time
and it's more than just instances you hang out.

(44:43):
I think it's just like it just takes a while.
I think it takes like a variety of environments, you know,
having some group Hangouts, having some weird Hangouts,
having someone on one, getting able, being able to see them at
this weird thing and I'm it was just, it just feels so I don't

(45:03):
know. I think that like you and I are
kind of in a friend group now with a bunch of different girls
that I brought together and all have all gotten to know each
other and that helped solidifiedsome depth in different ways.
I don't know, I think I just like was reflecting on how
moving to DCI knew nobody. Everybody I am friends with here
I met here and have like developed those friendships over

(45:27):
the last four years I've lived here and it just, it takes a lot
of time. It really does.
Yeah, I know. Yeah.
Thinking back to when we first met again, cuz like, you know,
we would have met in January, maybe hung out with that guy in
like March, and then maybe we went for a drink in April.
Like, it's very spaced out. And you have to, you know, I

(45:51):
don't know, like, remember details to bring up in
conversation, remember what you had in common.
Like you have to put a lot of effort into.
It. And but, yeah, I kind of feel
like it's almost similar to the job hunt where you just have to
like, again, just just put yourself out there.
I was actually thinking about ita lot this past week because
there's been three different people that I have like

(46:13):
acquaintances, acquaintances ships with.
Yeah, you know what I mean? And, and for some reason this
week I was just like, I'm going to solidify a plan, you know?
To like, lock them into real friendships.
And so like. All of them.
Where are you going to select one?
So I guess we'll see. Yeah.
It's like a it's a bachelor typesituation.
OK. But yeah, like one of them, I

(46:34):
was like, let's go on a walk in the morning.
One of them is like, let's go toa museum.
We talked about one of them was let's get together and work.
Like it's all these people that have been like in the at the
periphery, like in my head of like I need to, I need to follow
up with these people. I need to like make something
happen and yeah and like and it does feel like a work task at
some point. And I think that's like was a

(46:55):
really important lesson for me to realize that, OK, so there's
like acquaintance level friends that like, OK, you see each
other every once in a while and like you obviously get along,
but there's just a, a lack of flow there.
You like each other, but you don't have that flow yet 'cause
it's kind of acquaintance level.And then can still be really,

(47:16):
really nice. And, and then eventually that
can transform into an actual friendship.
Like, we're friends, we have flow, We see each other more
regularly. And it's like it's, it's kind of
magic to me, the way that acquaintanceships can turn into
friendships because those thingsfeel very different.

(47:36):
And sometimes you have an acquaintance relationship that
you're like, this could only ever be acquaintance.
But I've learned not to put those out.
Just like, OK, let it be acquaintance.
Maybe it'll just be acquaintance.
Let it be acquaintance for a year or two years or three
years, and then, boom, one day you wake up and it's a fucking

(47:56):
friendship. Yeah.
And then there's also the friendship level.
And then there's that further level that's like a deep, deep
friendship. Like this person makes me feel
known. And I don't know how long that
took, but that took a while for to feel like my friends in DC.
Like it took a long enough just to feel like, oh, I've got

(48:16):
friendships and social events tofill my calendar.
And it took maybe a year or two longer to be like, I feel known
by these people. And that also happened.
I'm not sure exactly when I remember feeling like I didn't
have it. I remember feeling like I don't
totally feel known. I have people to pass time with.
I have people to hang out with and people to laugh with, but I

(48:38):
don't know if they know me. And then something.
And then it slowly changes. And I also made like a really
big effort to, I think a part ofthat was like, I had, you know,
friendship with you, friendship with my friend Ashley, a
friendship with a friend Molly, some other people.
And they're all individual friendships.
Getting a coffee, getting a drink, getting a meal.
And I really missed the group dynamic.

(49:00):
And I was really determined to like, make this group dynamic.
And that too, I think helped deepen a lot of the ways we
relate to each other because yousee different sides of people.
And I'm, I feel like I was like trying to work on getting this
group, you know, 4 disparate people to relate to each other
for like, I've been working on that for like 2 years.

(49:20):
And there was a while where I was like, oh, this will never
congeal. Yeah, this will never take off.
This will never feel natural. And then all of a sudden, it
did. Because the cadence for a while,
like so often, we would just have to catch up every time.
If it's too infrequent or if there's this, I think is what I
learned. If there's members in the group
who are not committed, yes. Then and they're only there

(49:40):
once. Once every six months, then it
it stalls everybody else becausethen when you hang out.
That. Person is doing a catch up and
they ask everybody catch up questions and then it can only
ever be a catch up and they kindof self eliminated.
Yeah. So and now we have this like
file down group of four and people who are.
Committed to seeing each other and it's a real.
Friend. Group.
It's like a real relationship, but you.

(50:02):
Like a real relation you. Have to put effort into it like
for real. It was really amazing to me,
like to just like reflect back on how long acquaintance level,
friend level, deep friend level,group level.
Yeah, there were phases. I think there's like 80% of the
way through each phase that I was like, this isn't working.
And then all of a sudden it was.Yeah, I know.

(50:23):
And again, like, I couldn't tellyou what the turning point
actually was, but I do remember this one time you and I went on
a walk in the morning. Remember we used to do cute
little morning walks? Yeah, that was.
Really nice. That was nice.
Why don't we do? It I don't know.
I think I'm just, I don't ever really get, I'm not awake in the
morning usually. But on this morning walk, we
talked about something like really deep you.

(50:44):
Started crying talking about your like.
My love for you, your love for me, literally.
I will never forget that mean toyourself and it made me so you.
Started crying. Yeah.
It was like really beautiful. I love that you cried for me.
That to me. Feels almost like the turning
point, like I don't know that I can like pick that out.
Does that make sense? Like.

(51:06):
I do remember that happening andI was shocked at the depth of
your feeling. I was like this bitch won't even
say I love you back to me. Fucking little Angel bitch.
I have said it just so everybodyknows, and I think I did before
then. I don't know.
I don't even know what year thatwas, but I just remembered that.
That's always stood out to me because I don't know.
It just felt like we reached, it's like a different, different

(51:27):
vulnerability level because I think you and I are both very
good at like getting deep real. Fast but there's some things you
can't cheat like yeah, just because walls up, just because
you can talk deep doesn't mean you're like fully known still.
Yeah yeah, exactly. It's weird.
That is funny because we both can do that but which I think is
why we were friends easily but. Yeah.

(51:50):
I don't know. I think making friends as an
adult in a new city is very difficult.
Yeah, it just takes. Time.
Yeah, you gotta take time, do you?
Remember when we had that conversation in the car, we were
talking about how we missed thatkind of college level friendship
where you just kind of show up at somebody's house.
Someone's doing laundry and people, you're not even really
talking. You're so.
Comfortable with each other, it doesn't matter.
And I feel like it was, that wasalso kind of a turning point for

(52:12):
us because that's when we did like just, I would just be like,
I'm going on a walk. Do you wanna meet up?
And like, and we would. And it was great.
It was just a tiny little break.It would be like half an hour at
the most. I think the fact that we talked
about that together and you're the one who brought it up gave
us both permission to do it 'cause I'm.
Yeah, I'm really not spontaneous.
I think I'm kind of hard to meetup with spontaneously.

(52:34):
And I do always have this idea. I just talked about this in a
YouTube video I put out today. But I do always have this idea
that if we hang out, me and anybody, yeah, it has to be like
a three hour event. Yeah, yeah.
And it doesn't. And then that's that.
If that's your idea, that's so limiting.
And those 15 minute hangs can like, revitalize you.
Yeah, for the rest of your day. Like literally I just sweet

(52:56):
little spank on the butt. Yes, I was walking home from
this museum press tour I went ontoday and I ran into a friend in
my neighborhood and we talked for like 20 minutes, cute as
hell. And then I just went in and I
was like, that was amazing. It's so great to just like, have
a cute little community here. Yeah, and just.
Talk for a second. I don't know it just it just
changes and I think that we we talked about it almost as if we

(53:17):
were like in a long term partnership.
You and me, yeah. Like, yeah, we did.
It was like this. Is what we can do to like make
our relationship stronger. And so then we were both like,
OK, let's do it. You know, I think we need a
little re injecting of that for us, yeah.
Let's do it. OK, great.
I want to go back to some questions the listeners wrote in
with Do any best marriage advice?

(53:39):
Oh my gosh. So Prince Abigail has been
married to Prince Jake for 10 years.
It'll be 10 in October. Yeah, 10 years.
I don't know if I'm the best person to give advice.
Of course you are. I know, I think it.
I think it's so funny every timeyou say that.
What I. Think one of the things I admire
about you most is how you relateto your husband.

(54:02):
And really think about, Yeah. Whoa, tell me more.
I'm, I just think you're really thoughtful.
I can tell that your marriage isreally collaborative.
I can tell that you really are equals and buddies.
And if ever there is a moment that you don't feel like an
equal or, or you feel like you really advocate for yourself as

(54:24):
a woman. And I really respect the way
that you talk about it. And you, I feel like you teach
me about it. And which is not to say, I mean,
it's not a thing about Jake. I think Jake is one of the most
like, loving wife supporting men.
Like you guys just seem like a team.

(54:45):
And also there's plenty of moments, I think just living as
a woman that you have to be like, hey, this thing felt
weird. I know you didn't know that felt
weird, but I'm gonna let you know.
I think you're really great at thinking about it, advocating
for it. I'm you guys just always seem to
have fun together. It's also, I know it's so rare
to have left a religion, an intensive religion together and

(55:09):
stay together. I know that's so rare.
I think that speaks to your relationship a lot, too.
And there's nothing wrong with separating after leaving.
Yeah, yeah. You know, the Mormon church.
But that could be a really, really great thing to do
separate. But I think it also, I don't
know, I just think I think it's one of my favorite things about
you that you guys have a great relationship.

(55:30):
Nice. That's crazy.
Yeah. No, I love him a lot.
He's he's my best bud. I'm I, yeah, I'm really lucky
and I don't say that lightly because I don't know, I feel
like, I feel like so many times couples like on the Internet are
like we're. Obsessed with each other?
No, I think that's performative a lot.

(55:51):
And you guys really are buddies.Yeah, no, you're buddies.
He's my best bud. Like I guess that my advice is
to go through something so hard.I think that is good advice.
Honestly, like I don't I like obviously it just like made us
stronger. Leaving the church.
Together because you have to like go through really difficult
thought processes about who you are and how you're going to work

(56:15):
in the world and how you want tobe in the world and how you want
to be with each other. Now that you have a, now that
your moral framework has completely shifted, you know,
like it's, you know, there's definitely hard times.
I don't know, it's always complicated.

(56:36):
And like, you know, he has his own story and I'm not going to
speak for like his beliefs or anything.
But yeah, it definitely just made us reconsider how we want
to go forward in life. And, you know, I think for a lot
of people where one person or both people leave Mormonism, it
does end in divorce because, youknow, often times we're getting

(56:58):
married so young. We have, you know, I did, too.
I got married at 22. We have no idea what we want out
of life. Yeah.
All we know is that we're supposed to get married.
And so we do it. But we don't know what marriage
is or like, how to be married. And so you just have to like
fumble your way through it, kindof grow together, which I do

(57:19):
think is beautiful in a way, butit's, it can easily crossover to
like growing up together rather than just growing together.
And so there is, I would say that's like one of our biggest,
what's a good word like struggles throughout the 10 year

(57:40):
relationship is knowing when we're like growing and when
we're growing up. Like what is the difference?
So I would say growing up is just like being like you never
had the chance to be in certain mindsets.
I never got to have a crazy 20s whatever.
I never, you know, we, we didn'tget to like learn on our own how

(58:02):
to be a partner, how to take care of a house, how to, you
know, just do everyday tasks. Oh, you're figuring out all the
growing up? Yeah, at the same time while
being in a marriage. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like obviously you grow togetherin like your relationship and
how to, you know, how to be better for each other and stuff.
But like growing up with like literal life tasks, yeah, like

(58:24):
you're just doing it all together at the same time.
And I know that's like an aspectto most people's relationship
too, but when you get married soyoung, it's just like a
different naive. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, you're the difference between 22 and 25.
Those are like different generations, basically.
And 25 to 2828 to 31, like thoseare they're, you know.

(58:46):
Yeah. As you get older, the life stage
is kind of SH. I don't know, the differences
between those years is less. But you know, when you're like
15 and 17, yeah, you'd never speak to each other 'cause
you're so different, right? Yeah.
Those years matter a lot when you're younger.
Yeah. So you guys had to be like
really intentional. Yeah, yeah.

(59:10):
And I think we're still, yeah, still trying to figure out what
life is gonna be because they're.
So I know there was another question about like if we're
gonna like raise children in religion and stuff, which I, I
don't know, I just think it's kind of funny, but.
Why do you think it's funny? I just think it's funny that one
of the questions was, did you leave Mormonism or why did you

(59:31):
leave Mormonism? And then one question is like,
are you going to raise your kidsMormon?
I was like, no, yeah, yeah. So but it's like things like
that, they have to figure out where.
It's like we grew up in a very specific way of living, very
specific religion, and now all of a sudden we have to figure
out what that looks like. You know, everything that was
modelled for us was a very specific model.

(59:53):
I don't really have a ton of experience with, you know,
watching people not be raised Mormon, you know?
And so those are things that we're still going to have to
figure out if we decide to, like, have kids.
Yeah. What is that going to look like?
So. You said your answer is no for
raising them Mormon. Yeah, I I would not raise them

(01:00:16):
Mormon shan't be doing, but I obviously like, I don't know,
it's difficult because if you'relike I was raised in one school
of thought and I don't want to do that to another person.
Of like giving them just atheismor giving them whatever you want

(01:00:38):
to give them the freedom to choose.
That's what I think. The real opposite choices.
That's what I think is amazing about you.
You said that to me a little bitlike before we started
recording. Just glancing at these questions
of being like, I don't want to impose my non Mormonism either.
I think some of the best parentsI've heard from talk about not
telling their kids what to think, but telling them how how

(01:01:02):
to think and a lot of how to think.
It's kind of like the liberal arts education.
There's a lot of providing options, providing information.
Lenses. Interpretations.
And giving them access to information, which I really
think is the opposite of I'm some of the more dangerous

(01:01:24):
communities. Some people, you know, I don't
want to name names, but there's certain religious communities
that clearly only believe they can thrive and survive by
cutting off their members accessto information about the rest of
the. World.
Yes, 100%. You could put Mormonism in
there. Oh, for sure.
You could put a lot of religionsin there.
A lot, A lot of religions, not just Mormonism, for sure.

(01:01:46):
And I just always found that to be like such a weak way of what?
First of all, what a poor sense of self you have if you really
think the only worth you have isby eliminating all other paths.
But I'm yeah, I guess that's a personal opinion.
But no, no, I agree with you. I mean, I guess it is personal,
but I do agree. Yeah, I feel the same with like

(01:02:07):
kind of like creative work. I don't know if we talked about
this or not, but like you meet alot of people in different
creative fields who are just hyper competitive and hyper
cutthroat and will not help eachother out and are not
collaborative and don't want to lift people up.
And like I'm ambitious. I take my work very, very
seriously and I can be competitive, but to me being

(01:02:28):
competitive does not mean it's really important for me to lift
other people up. Yeah, and you do a really good
job. I try, I try and do it all the
fucking time. People I believe in and because
I just believe like if I only think my career will, if I only
think my YouTube channel will succeed so long as I prevent

(01:02:49):
people from other ever watching other YouTube channels, then my
YouTube channel is really not that good.
Like, I don't believe that my success is, you know, contingent
upon people having access to nothing else.
I think that I can talk to them about other creative people.
And if I'm making something goodand worthwhile that I believe in
there, people will still find value in it.

(01:03:11):
And I, I think the same thing. Justin and I have kind of had to
wade through this religion question because he's Catholic.
And I am not only not Catholic, but I actively unchose
Catholicism. I was raised Catholic and I
unchose it. So I am more not Catholic than I
am even agnostic. Yeah.

(01:03:32):
And I'm. It has been it was a giant thing
for us to talk through and a lotof it spin and hypothetical
because we don't have kids yet. But one thing that became
important was realizing like, I'm not opposed to them going to
church with him. I'm not opposed to them having
access to religion. And it was just important to me

(01:03:53):
that I also can have a voice because it's to say, I'm like to
say I have no faith or no beliefs is not true.
I, I have very active beliefs and they might not all be
represented by one organization that I can give a name to, but I
have very, very strong beliefs and a lot of thought about this.
And so when a kid comes home andasked me what do I think about

(01:04:15):
this belief or this Catholic thing or this Jesus situation, I
want to be able to answer and not tell them what to do.
But I want to be able to answer with things that matter to me
and are authentic to me as much as Justin can answer that
question. Yeah.
So we kind of landed on this feeling of like we really need

(01:04:36):
there to be room for both. And I'm sure that will be
confusing, but I think that raising a kid in a cult is also
confusing. I think raising a kid with no
structure is also confusing. I think that it's just like it's
tricky. That's why people don't have
clear cut answers to it. Yeah, also, kids don't know
anything. They're idiots.

(01:04:56):
So we're. Fucking idiots.
So you guys kind of get to create the reality, right?
It's really weird. But it also means that to them
it's going to be normal to have a Catholic father and a not
Catholic mother. You know what I mean?
Yeah. And then they think it's such a
bad thing. I know a lot of families like
that, yeah. Then they can just carry that
nuance into the rest of their lives.
I was. Also thinking recently about how

(01:05:16):
much I feel like an individual'srelationship to religion is just
OK. This is my new hypothesis.
Oh my God. Bring it.
Is that like an individual's relationship to a religion is
dependent on if they were raisedin that religion and whether or

(01:05:37):
not they liked their childhood? So I like, for me, my family was
very piously Catholic. Catholicism was not a passive
check the box kind of thing. It was very active in my family
culture. And, and also I would say I had
a really unhappy childhood, a very dysfunctional childhood.

(01:06:00):
And so on some level becoming anadult, there's this feeling of
like, OK, you claim this organization, this way of living
claims to offer the answers, butobviously it did not make my
life good. Like, obviously I don't feel
like it gave answers to anyone in my family.
Otherwise things would have gonea lot differently.

(01:06:22):
But I also know a lot of people who were raised Catholic, maybe
just as Catholic, and they have,they have no real reason to
doubt that because they had a really great childhood
experience. And that doesn't mean that their
experience is false or stupid ormisled.
We've all had different experiences.
And if I had a purely positive experience of the Church and of

(01:06:45):
my own childhood, maybe I wouldn't think to change it.
But then I also think of people who were raised without
religion, without any organized religion, and also had a
horrible childhood. And then I see those people
being like, well, the thing thatwas missing, it must be
religion. The thing that must be missing
is that we had no moral code. I've seen a lot of people do
that, and I feel like it's the same thing.

(01:07:06):
They're like, listen, childhood was really hard.
Family life was really hard. So what was missing?
Oh, we were following this religious compass.
So clearly that was wrong or, oh, we had no moral compass.
So clearly that was wrong. And I just feel like, yeah,
that's my new equation, is that your relationship to religion is
just based on whether or not youliked your childhood.

(01:07:26):
I mean, I honestly think that you're on to something.
I think I might actually be the variable, but I think you're
right about the control because I mean, again, everybody's
experiences are so vast and varied.
But like I'm in this Facebook group that a friend added me to
like years ago and it's it's like a faith journey meet up

(01:07:47):
group. And there I would say, like
most, a lot of the stories that I've read in that group are
people who had like really traumatizing childhoods or like
really weird moments with like aBishop.
Or is it all? Centered around 1 faith the
faith yeah, this is Mormon. It's all Mormon yeah OK, OK.
And yeah, it'll, it'll always beabout, yeah, like.

(01:08:08):
And they all grew up Mormon. Mm hmm.
OK. Like obviously there's other
questions and issues that they had with the church, but there's
a lot of times where it's just like, yeah, childhood was bad,
my church experience was bad. I think for me, it's been really
confusing for family and friendsto hear me say not I didn't have
a bad childhood. I was really happy, like I loved

(01:08:31):
it, you know, I was fully in it.I think for me it really was
just like access to information.I just like literally thought my
way out of it. I don't know how to say it other
than that, but I still will havelike, you know, people ask me
like what anti Mormon literaturewere you reading?
What, what led you out? Like there has to be some

(01:08:53):
impetus. There has to be, you know, and I
really cannot pinpoint it. I think throughout my whole life
I've just been kind of skeptical.
Yeah. I was like, I was called a
feminist as if it was an insult when I was younger 'cause I was
always asking hard questions like a.
Child. Yes, 'cause I was, you know, I
was, I had to be modest through my whole life, which meant like
skirts and shorts had to go to my kneecaps.

(01:09:15):
I couldn't wear tank tops in public, you know, And in my
head, I remember asking my parents, I was like, why can't I
wear like short shorts with longsocks?
And I was just like, I don't know, it's the same amount of
skin that's showing. What's the problem?
And I remember my dad being like, well, it's like where the
skin is that's the problem. And I was just like, what the
fuck? Like none of this makes any you.
Had more access to critical thinking than your parents did

(01:09:35):
I? I but I don't even know, like,
where that came from because, I mean, you'll read my journal
entries though, and they're always like, oh, I love the
church, blah, blah, blah. But underneath I had like,
really deep concerns and like fears about like the patriarchal
structures of the church. That was always like a, a
hitting a sticking point with mewhere.
Yeah. And it just got worse as I grew

(01:09:57):
up and saw what it wanted me to be.
And but anyway. But other than that, honestly it
was just like access to information was going to
college. I wasn't reading any anti Mormon
literature. That's what they call it if it's
like so funny if you're reading a book about the church written
by someone not in the church. OK.
Very US versus them mentality. I I just, I studied literature

(01:10:19):
and so I was reading different perspectives.
I was like, that's literally it.You know, the, the time.
So I was very piously Catholic, like I'm it really had a hold on
me. I I prayed compulsively like it
it it might have been a bit of. Oh, scrupulosity, right.
Scrupulosity. Yes.
Did you get scared? Like if you didn't say like,

(01:10:40):
please bless every member of my family by name.
I had a whole routine. I had to, I had to recite
verbatim with full meaning and Ihad to recite it until I meant
it the right way. Because if it was, if I didn't,
if I decided not to recite it till I had full meaning in it,
then that was selfish of me to say.
And God knows. And it was selfish of me to put

(01:11:01):
my own schedule and my own whatever I wanted to do next
above the fact that I didn't really pray for my dog.
Yep. Or my parents or would.
And I'd repeat it compulsively and like do the sign of the
cross the right way. And it was pretty intense.
And then somewhere in high school, I remember specifically
when I started questioning, it was in a literature.
Class. Yeah, and there's.

(01:11:22):
Not some kind of religious literature.
It was just English literature. And I remember taking notes in
the back of like Anna Karenina and being like, some of this
shit doesn't fucking add up. It was in the literature class.
It really is because you just Start learning.
You start thinking about stuff. Yeah, you.
Just Start learning what different, how to, how to
interpret things differently. OK, I do want to say I don't
know. I think when I was younger I had

(01:11:44):
a lot of feelings, like how can anyone believe in any organized
religion? I think I used to have a lot of
feelings like that. So dumb.
It's so dumb. And I no longer feel that way.
And I know there's people listening to the podcast.
I think I've my feelings on thathave changed a lot.
I don't think it's just like dumb flat out.
I really don't. Yeah, no.

(01:12:06):
I just want to be clear on that.And I think just like accepting
the fact that is so based on personal experience, personal
relationship, like, I don't know.
There was a huge moment of realizing, like my own father, I
couldn't really understand why he was so pious.

(01:12:26):
And then I realized at some point that if he was to give up
his religion, he would also haveto give up hope that he would
ever see his like, dead sister again.
And you just never, that's just one example, but like, you never
really know or, you know, with my aunt gave up religion, she
also might give up her sobriety.Like you just never know what it
means to people. And it might be less concrete

(01:12:49):
than that. But I just like, I certainly
don't feel that religion is pointless or that it isn't
really good for some people. And I also think it obviously
does plenty of harm to others. But I I think it's OK to just be
like it's both sometimes. Totally.
And I think yeah, like I literally wrote this in my sub
stack like last week. We'll put our Sud stack in the

(01:13:12):
episode notes. Yeah, follow along.
But I said something like, you know, I believe that religion is
a story that we use to comfort ourselves.
And I also believe that there's value in like, believing that
story. And we also, you know, all of us
have a story. Yeah, we all have stories we use

(01:13:34):
to comfort ourselves. Yeah, and so if religion is the
way you want to do it, I think it's great.
I think when it crosses over into like telling other people
how to live their lives, that's when it gets dicey.
But if it's like a personal comfort to you and that's how
you want to live your life and like, get your moral framework,
that's not a problem with me. I have a lot of nostalgia for
Mormonism. I, I, I'm not going to go back,

(01:13:56):
but I, yeah, like I was saying, my childhood was not bad.
I have, I'm, I'm happy. I have a lot of fun stories I'm
going to tell my kids if I have kids, you know, but there are,
and again, back to that questiontoo.
They're going to be raised around people who are still
Mormon, like their grandparents,you know what I mean?
And so it's just going to be a part of their life whether

(01:14:17):
they're actually going to churchor not, so.
Somebody wrote in at one point. Maybe multiple people wrote in
about. How?
Like, what to do when their mother or mother-in-law is, you
know, inundating their child, the grandchild, with, like,

(01:14:38):
religious ideas or blah, blah, blah.
And I can't remember where I heard this, but someone I was
talking to you recently was justtalking about the fact that,
like, your kid is going to be exposed to a lot of ideas.
Yeah. That you don't agree with.
Yeah. All the time.
You can't control they're. Going to be exposed to a lot of
different inputs. It's not just going to be your
input and also you as a parent have a different kind of input.

(01:15:00):
But I don't know, that meant a lot to me to hear.
It should just be like, totally,yeah, they're going to hear a
lot of shit. Sometimes it's going to be from
crazy people, Sometimes it's going to be from family members.
Sometimes it's going to be from crazy family members.
Sometimes you're going to agree with it and sometimes not.
But like, yeah, your kids good. You're not going to like the the
goal is not to become the Kremlin and like, control all

(01:15:21):
information that they have access to some information.
But yeah, there's going to be a mix in there.
Yeah, well, I think that's the that's the whole point, going
back to like you and Justin's relationship.
It's just like you just give them the freedom to choose no
matter what. So they.
So hopefully like what I want most for any future kids I might
have is that they don't feel bogged down the way that I did.

(01:15:42):
Yeah. By religion or by a belief
system, that's all I could ever hope for.
I'm they can be exposed to as many of these things as they
like. They can make their own choices
about what they believe, but I just don't want it to harm them.
Yeah, that sounds great. I feel really excited about
providing my kids hopefully withan example of how people can

(01:16:02):
have different beliefs and stilltreat each other really well.
Yeah. And like, you know how that's
hard? That example is.
Oh. It's so hard.
You religions or atheists can live that out.
Especially in this time this. Economy.
And this year, our Lord. That's something I think the
world needs more than anything. Wow.
I'm Jesus and I am so excited togive them like that.

(01:16:26):
I feel like if I, if we can successfully live that out,
which I think we can because we already have to fucking do it
all the time. It's like, you know, bridge the
gap between very different beliefs and still loving each
other and seeing each other and hearing each other and not
abandoning ourselves like it takes a lot of.
Work it does. And and you can do it.
Yeah, that that. I feel so excited to share that

(01:16:50):
with a kid I know. I think that we've really done
the hard stuff. Why are we angels and.
Things we've done the hard stuffand we're hopefully make it
easier for that. Before she's a Prince.
OK, somebody wants to hear your hot take on Jennifer Coolidge.
Why? That's not up to you to ask.
What's your hot take? Iconic.

(01:17:10):
Yeah, I agree. I I have nothing hot to say.
I think it's pretty. She's iconic, She's great, she's
great. What's the problem?
Somebody wrote. Gotta have Abby's take on Swig.
SWIG. Do you know what SWIG is?
No, of course I don't. It is a.
Wait, yes, you do. You read.
You read my essay about it. It's that the soda shop, the
soda shop that you can put in different like concoctions of

(01:17:33):
like creams or syrups. Oh, is this a Utah thing?
Yeah, or fruit purees. It's kind of.
Swig is the is a change soda shop, Yeah.
Then there's there's a couple different I.
Forgot it was called SWIG. Yeah, there's a couple of them.
OK, what's your hot take? My hot take is not for me.
OK? Do we need to go into further
detail? No, OK.

(01:17:54):
Did you say you have a question for me?
I have. I'm just, I just wrote down a
few things. I want you to give me rapid fire
hot takes on just going through a list of things that popped
into my head, OK? OK, So what do I?
How much can I answer? How much can I say?
I say up to 5 words. OK.
Luke Skywalker Hot but not that hot 0.
I was hoping you were going to say whiny little bitch, because

(01:18:17):
that's my take. OK, bagels.
Perfectly fine. OK, I like that Goldendoodles.
Over saturated but I get it. I think their legs are scary.
What do you mean they? Have long legs.
Oh, have you seen a Goldendoodle's legs?
OK, we got to look up a picture.Yeah, but they are like, really
sweet. Like I get why they've become so

(01:18:37):
popular. Fine, they're.
Sweet little idiots. They're uncanny to me.
OK. The phrase Why is no one talking
about this? I hate it.
Great hate hate. I hate all the copy and paste
social media phrases. OK, OK.
All of them. Great, same I.
Hate them. It's like a Hallmark card.

(01:18:58):
You know what it is? OK, I'm going to keep talking.
Do it. You know what it fucking is, is
that nobody knows how to just let yourself be uninteresting
for a moment. You know, people have to like
come up with something ironic and sassy to say online all the
time. You know what I mean?

(01:19:20):
And it and a lot of people aren't that interesting.
And so they, like, do like rent A personality and they, you
know, copy and paste one of these, like, sayings they've
heard in the zeitgeist, Like, why ain't nobody talking about
this Or let's normalize or she ate with that or like.

(01:19:41):
And, you know, and back in the back in the 90s, those would
have just been like, you know, people commenting on a forum and
and saying something boring likethat was cool.
But nobody can just say like, that was cool.
Yeah. Or like, I have a question.
They have to, like, try and be interesting, but they're not.
And. Yeah, so they use.
It's like getting a Hallmark card.
I agree. I agree.
Yeah, I purposely like can neversay any of these phrases.

(01:20:02):
I won't. I won't allow myself.
I know I'm a I'm a bitch. Yeah, I'm a bitch.
No, me too. But I don't like it.
I don't like it. She ate with that shut the get
the fuck out of here. Get the here.
What do you mean? Yeah, you don't mean anything.
You don't even know what you mean.
All you know is that you have nothing else to say.
And most of. Them hate to have nothing to
say. Most of these phrases are coming

(01:20:23):
from teenagers. They always like when you were
talking about. They are when you were talking
about NPCS. I've known about that phrase for
a really long time. Because Jake is a teacher at a
high school. Yeah.
And they've been saying NPC for at least a year.
Yeah. Maybe longer?
Was that a short hot take? No.
OK, All right. Nicole Kidman's AMC teaser.
Oh, I feel fine about it. I don't have a hot take really.

(01:20:44):
Nothing. No, whatever.
Don't let people work. Whatever.
Let them work. OK?
Why? What are people saying I.
Don't know what people are saying.
I do have a hot take. I just think it's, I think it's
crazy. Why is it crazy This is This is
an AMC movie trailer that NicoleKidman is in.
No, no, no. It's that thing that it shows
before every movie. You know what I'm talking.

(01:21:05):
About it's a trailer in the AMC,that's what I said.
Where she's like talking about how movies are great.
She's just in a movie theater alone, eating popcorn.
She's like movies are great. Yeah, she's like, because here.
They are, yeah. It means she says nothing.
Basically, Yeah. What's what's there to complain
about? I'm.
Just wondering what you think. I told you these are random.
I do think it's weird that she that they got her for that.

(01:21:28):
Yeah. It kind of feels like like if
Meryl Streep was in that. It feels equally surprising to
me. Yeah, but whatever.
Girls gotta eat. Meryl Streep was in SNL's 50th.
I didn't watch it. She.
Did a bad job, I'm gonna say. It Oh, that's great.
I love that. I I like it too.
I love like having Halsey examples of people failing.

(01:21:49):
We need more of that. She's gonna do bad at something.
Yeah, nobody's. Perfect.
She's very successful otherwise.OK, Secretary Desks.
Like in Siri, don't own. OK, OK.
All right. I love that it was pretty good.
You thought I couldn't count to 5?

(01:22:09):
I really did. Yeah.
I was like, she only has four fingers.
It's OK. Someone asking me about my quote
UN quote big feelings. Oh, I I think that's lol.
I think that's lol. So what happened is a listener
wrote in one of the listener submissions for Abby, somebody

(01:22:30):
just wrote with no context that either of us understand.
Somebody just wrote in What you doing with all those big
feelings? I didn't mean being laughed so
hard. And I assumed this was a
reference to something Abby wrote about or an article or a
sub stack. Neither of us have any idea what
this means. I have no idea.
So in that knowing that you haveno idea what this means either,
answer the question what you doing with all those big
feelings? I thought it made sense because

(01:22:53):
you do have a lot of big feelings.
Did they, could they just tell by like I just maybe we should
figure out who it is because what if it's like one of my
friends or something? Anyway, what would I say about
it? I'd say I write them down, you
write them down and I send them on out.
You didn't tell us what your best marriage advice is.
I don't know. OK, I'll ask a more specific

(01:23:14):
question. Somebody else.
That's a hard question, But somebody else wrote in and asked
how do you navigate arguments orheated moments with your
partner, such as when you're angry or disappointed at them or
something? I.
I. You just turn him over onto his
tummy and spank him till he. Realize for help.
Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah.

(01:23:34):
I maybe, I don't know if we've talked about this a little bit
before. I don't know if I do the right
thing, but I just kind of like, say what I'm feeling.
That's when I'm feeling so fucked up and pervert.
Yeah, I, it's really funny 'cause sometimes I'll like, be
talking to friends and they tellme something crazy going on in

(01:23:56):
their relationship. And I'm always just like, well,
what did they do when you told them about it?
And they're like, they're like, Oh yeah, I haven't.
I'm like why? Yeah, I think you're really
good. You seem to be really good at
just saying things. But you, you know when you watch
a ROM com and like everything goes bad because nobody's
communicating? Horrible is why I can't watch
him. Like just communicate, I guess,
like that. I, I mean, I think I can go too

(01:24:17):
far where like sometimes I and maybe speaking out loud
anxieties that like don't need to be on his mind, if that makes
sense. So I've I've worked hard to make
sure that like the battle I'm fighting is worth fighting.
Yeah, but so you'll be like, I'mreally fucking angry.
Yeah, yeah. You wouldn't curse.

(01:24:38):
I can't. You wouldn't curse.
I will. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So you'll.
Just be like, I'm really angry. Yeah, I'll just be like, OK,
yeah, usually we'll we'll be sitting down and I'll say
something like, OK, this has been on my mind.
Like, are you in a place where Ican tell you something that's
been on my mind? And if he says no, actually, he
really doesn't say no. Yeah, if you say no, it's just

(01:24:58):
OK, well, it's going to be an awkward night then.
Never mind. But I think it's kind of nice
because it lets him know like, OK, something is coming.
I do think it's nice to be like,I want to talk about something
that's hard to talk about. I want to talk about something
that's a little uncomfortable because it is.
It's weird how that tiny heads up let's someone show up as a

(01:25:21):
better version of themselves. So like, oh, I instead of just
like getting blown over by the wave of something that's
uncomfortable or hard to talk about, they get to be like, this
is going to be hard to talk about.
OK, let's listen. It's so.
Different yeah no, it is and I and I think over the years I
like learned how to just do likeI messages pretty solely right

(01:25:41):
like. What do you mean?
Oh, speaking? I thought you were talking about
texting. Oh, no, no, no.
OK, so speaking from. I feel.
Yeah, like, just instead of likeyou do this.
And it really bothers me becauseI feel like sometimes, like if
you're in the, if you're in the right mood, you really like
crave that like confrontation where you can be like, you're
doing it wrong just to like get a fight, you know.

(01:26:02):
But, yeah, over the years, that's obviously faded away.
I, I was young at a time, but I like, yeah.
So I think that's like the best advice I can give is just
talking about how, how you feel about a situation rather than
like what they've did, what they've done to make you feel
that thing. Yeah.

(01:26:23):
I don't know that I have a greatexample.
Yeah, I'm trying to think of examples.
I will say one time recently, without getting into specifics,
he told me he was like, OK, we're going to do this thing,
but like, we're not going to like freak out if it doesn't
happen. Like something kind of big, you

(01:26:44):
know? And I was just like, yeah, yeah,
yeah, chill, chill, chill. And then like as time went on, I
was kind of like, wait, like I'mkind of freaking out.
But I feel like I'm not allowed to freak out because we like,
agreed. We weren't going to freak out,
you know what I mean? And so I had to sit down with
him and be like, OK, I'm going to, I'm just going to bring this
up. Like when you said that, I kind

(01:27:05):
of felt like this pressure to keep it all to myself.
And that's actually not that healthy for me because it, you
know, it really messes with my mind and I need to be able to
say it out loud. It's OK if I can't say it to
you. But I guess I just want you to
know that like, I will be freaking out.
And like, if you don't want thatto involve you, I guess that's

(01:27:26):
fine. But like, I would rather be in
this together basically. And so, yeah, does that make any
sense? I know it's not that specific.
No, totally. It's like you just say.
Sometimes it's just like just saying the whole truth, Like I,
I feel this and I feel bad aboutsaying that I feel that way, but
I also feel like I want to tell you that I feel that way and I'm

(01:27:47):
not really sure what I'm asking for, like for you to do.
And I don't really have like a different solution.
It's like, I think sometimes people think if they're going to
have a tough conversation, they need to come to the table with
like, a full directive. Yeah, this is what I feel.
This is what's wrong. This is how we need to fix it.
And this is what I want you to do.
And you really don't. Sometimes you're just like, I
feel this. I feel bad about it.

(01:28:10):
I feel a little confused about it.
I'm not really sure what the solution is.
And I've heard someone describe it before as like, you know,
tough conversations or conflict even.
It's more about like, we're writing a draft together.
I have like, part of the draft, but I actually need you to weigh
in before we can finalize this thing.
And just taking that pressure off of like, you don't have to

(01:28:30):
know where this conversation is going.
You don't actually have to know what the take away is or what
the conclusion is. It might really just be saying
like, I I feel anxious, but I feel like I'm not supposed to be
anxious. I actually don't even know if
I'm supposed to be bringing thatto you.
Like, I don't know if you want to be involved or like if you
should be involved or like what that actually means or like
maybe you already knew. I feel this way.
Like you can just say all of it.Just say everything that's true.

(01:28:51):
You don't have to know where it's going.
You don't have to have like a anaction point, action item at the
end of it. Yeah.
You write the draft together. Yeah, no, totally.
And I, yeah, I think part of thereason I brought that up is
because he's a little more reserved and doesn't love to
like voice anxieties as much as I do.

(01:29:12):
And so you love it. Part of me was just like, I feel
like you're acting me, asking meto like operate under the way
that you operate. And I.
Can't do that, yeah. Yeah, I feel like we've actually
done better in conflict over thepast few years and he's he's
actually done a ton of like actions to prove that he's
listening lately. So knock on wood, I feel like

(01:29:36):
we're going to, we've been in like a really good flow.
You guys been through a lot. I think it mean it means so much
what you said about like going through something hard, because
going through something hard will happen to every couple
eventually. I think you kind of want to find
someone who you like their personality and you like how
they live day-to-day when stuff is good.

(01:29:57):
But I think you also really wantto appreciate the way someone
moves through conflict. I think I've loved a lot of
people before who love their personality, love day-to-day,
love how we got along. But the way they got they, the
way they dealt through conflict was basically like unworkable.

(01:30:20):
And you will have conflict. And so you need someone who like
has a complimentary way of working through conflict.
I feel like that's maybe almost more important than like, do you
have a personality match? Yeah.
And if you can't have conflict together, then you'll certainly
end. Yeah, it will.

(01:30:41):
It will be very hard to work through.
Yeah. So you guys, like, have been
tested in that way. Then you got to be very
intentional. I remember one of the first
things you shared with me, this was early on when we, you and I
were first friends. And you shared with me how you
were just like you were like I just asked Jake the other day,
like, what do what does marriagemean to us now if we're choosing
this marriage as adults? And we first entered the

(01:31:02):
marriage by force when we were children.
What does marriage mean to us now?
And when you first said that I was like, oh, shit, they go and
get divorced. But you.
But what I learned is that you were actually just being like,
let's be intentional about us about this.
It's a real question. And I feel like since then, I've
just learned that your eyes relationship is even stronger.

(01:31:23):
And there's also no shame in getting divorced.
I think if if you need to separate in order to have your
adult life and the only thing that was keeping you together
was enforced religion, then it sounds like you should really
celebrate being able to choose your own separate ways.
But I don't know. I just thought it was like
amazing that you were able to ask that question because
whether people have left the church recently or not, I think

(01:31:45):
so many couples probably never asked themselves that.
After a couple of years. Of being married.
What does marriage mean to us now?
Yeah. What does this commitment mean
to us now? It's nice to check in.
I thought that was really wise. I feel like you have kind of
done that. Tell me more about myself.
With, I mean, I feel like you and Justin, just what you're
talking about earlier with like religion, with a, with other

(01:32:06):
hard stuff. You, you've had to talk through
some hard stuff too. And you've just like, made it
through because you care about each other.
I love how we have conflict together.
Like it makes me, it genuinely has made me feel so confident
about us because like I think, you know, we both intend to

(01:32:27):
spend a life together. And that intention and that
confidence and excitement about spending a life together is not
based on having never been through anything hard together.
It's based on the fact that, like, we did have things to
figure out, things like different religions and other
differences or conflicts that you could easily not encounter
early on in a relationship. But we did and it was hard to

(01:32:52):
figure out. And we got to the other side of
it and it just, it just emboldened me to feel like, oh,
like it doesn't really matter what's thrown at us.
We we can like get through things even if we disagree or
even if we want, you know, have different beliefs, or we can
just do it respectfully and, andboth be in it and care and not

(01:33:15):
abandon the other. And like, yeah, it just felt
like, it just left me feeling like, oh, we can do anything.
Yeah, I feel like being afraid of conflict is the conflict.
Because it's gonna come up, Yeah.
So it's like nice to know that we can do it.
Together. Yeah.
Why ignore it for so long when you can just, like, nip it in
the bud and move on? Nip.
It in the freaking nip. Like.

(01:33:35):
You know what I mean? I know what you mean, I know.
What you mean? I really get it?
No, I think we've been talking for 1000 hours.
I was just. Thinking about how long it's
going to sucks. For you dog because you got to
edit this. Jess, will you edit this one?
No. I'm going to give it to you
instead. All right, I'll do it.
Saint Abigail, Prince of Peace, thank you so much for doing the

(01:33:57):
podcast. This was.
Awesome, thank you for having meand sorry I yapped for so long.
No, Everything you say is gold is really nice, yeah.
I think not about you. Don't just copy my compliment.
OK, everything you say is like silver.
No, say an original compliment. OK.
This is what we do when we hang out.

(01:34:20):
I demand compliments. I think I just admire you
because you've been through a lot of shit and you are still
going through a lot of shit in random parts of your life and
you still show up to be such a kind friend and you're always so
zoned in on what we're talking about, even when you have so
much shit going on in the background.

(01:34:43):
I think that's really a very nice trait.
And I am. I just want you to know, I am
aware that you have so much going on and you still let me
sit here and yap at you about trivial things.
We do talk about her stuff too, just so everybody knows.
But she's very good at just hanging through it all.

(01:35:03):
That was really meaningful. That was really nice.
I'm so glad. Wow.
I don't think of myself that wayat all.
I feel like I'm always so absent.
No. I was literally just beating
myself up today for even textinggirlfriends about, you know,
shit I was down about. I was like what is wrong with
you? No, that's why the friend group
is there. That's the level that you've
been searching. For I know.

(01:35:25):
It's the friends that you can just.
I feel like it's happening right?
I was like, is this right for meto do?
No, that's it. That's the level I'm always
looking for, where we're just clued in on each other's minute
hand, minute details of our lives.
That's. New.
That's real friendship, I think.Yeah, that was really meaningful
to hear you say thank you. I really appreciate that.
Yeah, I love you. I love you too.
So do you feel like you got enough compliments for me or do

(01:35:46):
you? I think you went above and
beyond. I was not prepared for that.
That's what I was going to say. I feel like I did a lot for you
you. Really.
Did you basically interviewed melike you're Oprah and I'm I
know. I love hearing you talk.
I think that's why we're friends.
I really admire you, Interpersonally especially.
Yeah, Everything I said about you and your marriage, I really

(01:36:08):
learned from you. I think that's what I think.
That's something I require in mydeepest friends.
I was thinking about this recently is like there's always
with all, like my dearest friends.
There's at least one major category where it's like, I
really take notes from you. Agreed, I take notes on your
stuff all the time. I'm always thinking about.
It OK, that's enough compliments.

(01:36:29):
Take us out to the outro. Me.
Wow, thanks for being here. Wow, wow, Wow.
Thanks for being here and listening to us wax poetic about
everything going on in our sweetlittle lives.
We love you. What do you want him to do this
week? Write a review about Sweet
Prince Professor Abigail. Yeah, I guess we'll like link my

(01:36:52):
stuff. We're going to link all
Abigail's her sub stack if you want to keep up with her
writing. She also talks a lot about
fashion and her relationship to that.
There's stuff that cultural commentary, ex Mormon
commentary, like she just touches on a lot of stuff.
We're going to link some of her writing.
Yeah, that's probably where I'm most active.
You can follow me on Instagram but nothing much has happened.
We're going to share the podcastthat she wrote.

(01:37:14):
Oh yeah. And or produced.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, girl, you've done some shit.
Yeah, Follow that. Cool.
Yeah. Thanks for being here.
And it was so fun. I love you.
I love you too. Hello.

(01:37:39):
My name is Abby. Hello, her name is Prince.

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112. Hater Hour: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome, Leaving Mormonism, and Making Adult Friendships | ft. Prince Abi Our Editor!

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