113. Love Letter: How to Forgive and Forget in Friendship + Keeping Dating FUN in Your 30s | ft. My BFF Ekaette Obot - Not For Everyone

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
This is the thing, it can be fun, right?
Like dating can be a fun time, even if it doesn't look the way
you thought it would or timing isn't happening the way you
would imagine. I have to like take a step back
and be like, I can enjoy. They're just dates and it's

(00:23):
sometimes it's fun to go on a date.
Welcome back to Not for Everyone.
This is a podcast hosted by a lover.
That's me, Jess, and a hater, Caroline, who's not here today,
but luckily my best friend, Akayate Obot, who I've

(00:48):
referenced many times on the podcast.
Kai, lovingly shortened to Kai is a hater.
That's right. So she's here to fill that role.
Hello my sweet. Hi my Angel, my honey.
How are you? I'm just thrilled to be here.
This is like a tree. I'm going to be like cheesing
the whole time. Oh my.
Gosh, me too. I feel that.

(01:10):
It's funny because we talk all the time.
That's right. For a really, for 15 years we've
talked all the time, but now we're talking and like recording
it and my heart's racing. Me too, but it's.
Is it good? I'm excited.
OK, yeah, OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What should we tell them about you before we dive in?

(01:32):
Like, I feel like they need context.
I feel like I can wax poetic fora long time about you to me.
Wow, just like some basics, somebasic specifics, some generals,
what do you think give them? I'll let you talk about
yourself. Give them.
Sure, give it to them. My favorite color is lime green.

(01:54):
Yeah, I knew that. I mean, I knew that obviously,
but what about you? Do like other shades of green
too? You like an emerald green?
I do. I love.
I have a love for all green. I love an emerald.
I love a sage. That's how a seafoam.
OK. You like seafoam.
I like any green if. Is seafoam green?
What? Else would it be?
Are you saying it's blue? I'm saying 'cause I like a weird

(02:15):
turquoise teal. I like a teal and a turquoise as
well. I like those too, but I don't
know if I like seafoam. There's something wrong with it
to me. Have you seen me in seafoam?
Because that might that might adjust here.
Actually, I have a perspective. An image came to mind and I'm
immediately in love with Sea Foam.

(02:35):
There it is. OK, so we needed to talk about
colors. So what else should we?
Somebody asked what your sign is, which I know, but I'll let
you talk about it. My astrological sign.
Your astrological sign. I'm a happy, proud Taurus.
Yeah, Taurus gang, stand up. I'm a cancer, as many know, and
tauruses and cancers are very compatible.
Duh. In all ways, yeah.

(02:57):
Like. Friendship wise lovers.
Yeah, I was gonna get there. Sorry, I jumped the gun.
No, I mean, you know what that'sthe most important, so we'll.
Just get right to it. Yeah, let's not be coy, yeah.
We were not gonna be in coy in this episode.
We're never coy with each other.OK, Those are some good basics.
Now let's, like, level it up like Sierra.
What do you. Yeah, talk about what what you

(03:20):
do with your life and I don't only mean career, I mean like
what are things you enjoy? What are ways you spend your
time? Like just give them a little
grounding in you day to. Day Most days you can catch me
watching some type of reality television.
Absolutely. It's pretty important to me.
The big Real Housewives girly Salt Lake City Atlanta Potomac

(03:44):
for a good minute the last couple seasons tough OK, but I
was watching them OK. I'm not all about housewives.
I love that the first thing you said was reality TV.
I mean. It's it's a great.
Escape and everybody listening knows how much I love reality.
TV the traitors. Oh traitors was great.

(04:06):
We haven't do finished that. Yeah, Yeah.
We have not talked about it, talked about that.
Maybe we'll get to it. Keep.
Giving them more, keep giving them more.
What else do I like to do? I play badminton, yeah, which is
pretty fun. I feel like I'm.
I obnoxiously talk about how much I like playing badminton.
Like I can't stop. I keep being like, yeah, and on.

(04:28):
I play Batman on Saturday, and here's the context.
Here's. The context that I need to give
the listeners, which is that Akayate was the captain of her
badminton team in high school. Varsity.
Absolutely tell them and then did not play.
Maybe occasionally you would play, but like you weren't
playing on a regular basis from high school.

(04:49):
Yeah, I didn't pick up a racket 15 years. 15 years and then this
year you joined a like local. Yeah, through the Park District.
Real casual. And now you go twice a week,
Twice a week. You get in your games.
Get real sweaty. It's a lot of there's a lot of
sprinting involved. I love that you do this.
You've made a concerted effort to like I really this.

(05:12):
Last like 2024, I feel like became my hobby.
Yeah, year 'cause you started playing a piano.
Did you do voice lessons for a little?
I was doing a little voice. Lessons and OK, yeah, that's
important. We'll get to that.
So Kai basically is a woman of many talents, of many skills, of
many hobbies, things that I liketo tell people about.

(05:35):
You are like, you know how to enjoy your time by yourself.
I think it's a Taurus thing. I think it's a you thing.
Like you, you know how to just be in your home and like, read a
book or do or like color. Yeah.
Or like my puzzles, practice piano, do your puzzles.
Like, you're just really contentwith your own company, which is

(05:57):
something I really admire about you.
So I want us to talk about that in the episode.
We can talk about how you got into hobbies over the last year.
We mentioned singing. We met in college through our
acapella group. People asked about how we met.
So there's lots to dig into. I'm just trying to decide where
to start. And the last thing that you

(06:18):
haven't brought up yet is what you do do for work.
Do you And people when I posted on Instagram for like input on
the episode, a lot of people wanted to know more about your
work because you're an attorney,you represent people in Chicago
who are seeking an order of protection or you know.

(06:41):
Trying to get divorced, trying to get well, custody is a more
known term, but now it's allocation of parental
responsibilities. Which is dumb, because who wants
to say all of those words? Nobody.
Had a word for it. Yeah, but it custody seemed to
like, I don't know, they changedit like right before I started

(07:05):
practicing. So like when I was a law
student. OK.
Like I just say custody real casual like and then I think
they changed it like in 2016. But that's really weird, I did
not know that because it's. I guess you're not supposed to
say that like you have like possession of, but you.
Still, you do. Still say you have who has
primary possession, but it's like you're trying to divide

(07:26):
who's making decisions about like.
Extracurriculars and what schoolthey're going to and religion.
And so it's they want it to be more about the responsibility
than about like, ownership. Of the kids.
OK, OK, interesting. OK.
But at the end of the day, somebody's gonna be the primary
parent, somebody's gonna have the kid most of the time, right?

(07:49):
We all know what's going. On it all comes down to the same
thing and a lot of the people that you represent have been
through. All of our trauma, yes all of
our clients are survivors of domestic violence or sexual
assault. Most are low income speak
different languages yes translations, a lot of it yes.

(08:12):
A lot of our clients first language is not English.
So we do also have different areas within our agency.
So we have our family law department, which I am the
leader of. I'm just gonna say ruler.
It's crazy. No, it's actually.
Take a moment. I was like, Oh my God, it's.
Actually very fitting 'cause we talk about on the podcast that

(08:35):
Caroline, me, Caroline and Abby are the monarchy.
Caroline and I refer to each other as brother king.
They talked about this. Abby and Caroline did an episode
together last week and they talked about how Caroline and I
call each other kings. Somehow Abby has been dubbed
Prince, and I mean, I always call you queen.
So maybe that's just how this works.

(08:55):
Yes. So you are the ruler.
Yeah. Of your division at your
organization. You are in a leadership role.
I think we should talk about that.
So these are all the little. This is the grounding.
Ikayate is a multifaceted woman who we can learn a lot from.
And I want you that today. No.

(09:16):
No, it's not. I mean, you know, you teach me
every day. Bless you.
It's true. You teach me everyday.
Thank you. It's reciprocal.
Thank you. OK, the first thing that we
should talk more about, I'm going to pull up the receipts.
What is it? The Salt Lake thing.
Receipts. Receipts, timeline, screenshots,

(09:39):
proof, everything. That's correct.
That's a reference to Real Housewives of Salt Lake City,
for those who know that you know.
Someone reference that at our last intake meeting at work last
week, like one of our paralegalsand like people didn't get it.
But then like, we made eye contact her across the table and

(09:59):
she was like, thank you, OK. It was just for you.
Yeah. So I have the receipts.
I have a bunch of DMS from people on Instagram who wrote in
because I said that you were coming on.
They've heard a lot about you. There is a lot of excitement, a
lot of people just being like, oh, my gosh, we've heard so much
about her. It's like exciting to meet her
and I think a good place to start is just the story of how

(10:21):
we met and how we became friends.
And I want you to tell it so I can just like, swoon and feel
special. OK, it's wild because there are
not a lot of folks on this planet where I can remember how
I felt when I met them. You don't care about them like
you care about me. And genuinely the only I was

(10:42):
thinking of like, who else can Iremember meeting?
And it's my paternal grandmotherwhen I met her in Nigeria.
Like, yeah. So like you were on the like,
and that and that honestly, likeI get emotional.
Like it is one, one of the most like, beautiful things that ever
happened because like you meet her and it's like, oh, I'm
experiencing grandmother love. And it's like I was eight years

(11:04):
old. So it's like hitting me in the
chest and she's like, she saw me.
We ran to each other. Like it was like out of a story,
like out of a dream. And like to feel that love and
that moment. Beautiful, right?
So like, that's one example of like knowing how it felt in the
moment meeting someone, OK. So then I'm not very.
Emotional. OK, so I can remember standing

(11:27):
in front of my dorm room and we're there's I don't know how
many of us like 15 girls and we're.
Backtrack. Give them context on what this
is, yeah. This is what, the second weekend
of school, we had just auditioned for a Capella groups.
Yes, freshman year of college, freshman year of college, 2009,
Baltimore, MD. And we just found out that we

(11:51):
were accepted into this group. So the girls who are already in
the group, they go around to each of the dorm rooms and like.
Like, kidnap you. They're like, come outside.
They try to be like a sorority, like how sororities are in
movies. I don't even think sororities
are like that in real life. Yeah, But you know, acapella
girls don't know what sororitiesare like.

(12:13):
It's like a separate cohort of people a lot of the times.
But. We feel like it's our sorority
totally which. Is, you know, but I think they
were trying to be like, Oh yeah,it's like in.
It's. House Bunny or whatever, we come
and kidnap you and and initiate you, right?
So it was like our initiation night, but it was just all and
you, it's all for a performance.So they come and get you.
They come and get you and there's all like, right, there's

(12:36):
all these people out there. There's like 15 people.
But I just like, remember seeingJess, like I, I could not tell
you what anybody else looked like in that moment.
I just remember seeing this cutehuman and just my heart, I was
just like, I need to be friends with this cute ass girl.
Like she just her little Bob andher little face and her little
happy little excited energy. I was like, this is my energy

(12:59):
that I'd like something about. I was just like I, I just, I was
so. Pure.
I didn't know anything then. But like, I didn't know,
obviously I didn't know that meeting you.
But like, there's something about the energy where I was
like, this is. I I felt comfortable.
To be around this human. And then we were like, Oh my
gosh, our nicknames rhyme, whichlike we never call each other
these nicknames Eka and Jaka. Yeah, my my high school nickname

(13:22):
was Jaka. Like Caroline can attest.
People called me that growing up.
It's like Jessica without the S it in it.
And then your full first name isAkaiate.
And so people would call you EkaEka.
The first 3 letters. So that's like the nickname that
comes with my name. Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, that was our first conversation.
We got collected by, like, the people in the acapella group

(13:43):
from our dorms, and they were walking us to a party for the
initiation. And, yeah, we're like, in this
big group of girls that we don'tknow yet, and we start talking.
Somehow we got on the nicknames.Yeah.
Like, I only felt comfortable talking to you at that moment.
I mean, I was like very nervous.And like, blessed are the other
girls like we still are like. Oh, we're so close with all of

(14:06):
them now, but the first day, yeah, I only really remember
talking to you. Yeah.
OK, tell me more about how cute I was.
Somebody did say I don't want tomake it about me, but I do.
You know how I do. If it's about me, it's about
you, please. Well, somebody said you, I

(14:27):
posted a picture of us when I was calling for input and
somebody said y'all look like sisters, which I love because I
feel like that with you. But we aren't even the same
race. So it was a stretch, but I loved
it. And then somebody said, OK, how
did you meet instant friendship enemies to besties.

(14:49):
They like wanted drama. No, there was never any drama.
I mean, I don't think we were like best friends the day we met
no. And.
I even, like you had your own friends first semester.
I had my own friends. Like we weren't like hanging out
every day or anything like that right when we first met.
That's correct. I remember when I knew, though,
that you were. Gonna be like you should tell

(15:10):
that is. My whole thing, yeah.
So I would say that you were my favorite person in the acapella
group for that freshman year. Like we all didn't really know
each other yet. It's a new group of girls.
Like you're trying to figure outhow much do I want to invest in
this group versus how much do I want to invest in?
Like the friends I'm making at my dorm who are really going to

(15:32):
be like my best friends for lifebecause it's freshman year of
college and you're like, I just need to like nail down my
people. And I don't know which group
it's going to be. So you're kind of like spreading
your seed, or that's what I was doing.
Spreading your. Seed, you know me, I like to
put, I like to plant various. Seeds you're germinating,
pollinate, it's going to grow. Pollinate, germinating,

(15:53):
pollinating. I used to know the difference
between those terms. What?
Either of them are. You do.
It's like you think about like a, a pine cone.
You know how like only like female trees or male trees or
some shit have pine cones. And then, like I told you to
teach me something. Today.
I but I don't actually know. Somebody out there listening
does know what I'm trying to say.

(16:14):
About. And so is that germination or
fallen? That's germination.
It sounds like Germany and nation.
Like sure, German nation. We have a lot of German
listeners, by the way. Shout out.
OK, So yes, it was freshman yearof college and I definitely knew
anytime I was going to acapella practice, like I wanted to sit

(16:36):
next to you. You were the person who I felt
was like my person in that context.
But yeah, we weren't hanging outall the time.
We weren't hanging out every weekend until this one day.
It was maybe like November of that year and I had gotten into
some trouble with the law. Not really the law by the law I

(16:59):
mean residential life because I Hopkins law was drinking in my
dorm and like threw a pregame and got caught and I had to go
to some meeting with some personfrom res life to like be like
I'm sorry I'm 18 and I've never drank before and it got carried
away and I just wanted to be cool and like please don't tell

(17:19):
my mom which they did tell my mom anyway so I had this
meeting. Should they be allowed to do
that like you're an adult? I don't think so.
I don't think if. You were 17?
Sure. I Yep I don't know.
I think they could tell that I was such a goody 2 shoes that
like the only thing that would make me never do something like

(17:40):
that again would be to tell my parents.
Like, I think if it was a different student with a
different vibe, they maybe wouldhave given them a different
punishment because I don't actually think the school is
really allowed to do that. Right.
And I've, like, reflected on that in recent years and talked
to other people about that. And they're like, yeah.
Like, the college is not. It's also a private college.

(18:03):
It's not like, I don't know. And I was 18 anyway, whatever.
But that's what they did. I was freaked out.
The meeting with the Reslife person happened to be in the
building where you lived. Like, that's where their offices
were. And you were the only person I
knew who lived in that dorm. 'Cause I because freshman year I
lived in the sophomore dorm. So like, it was random that I
was even there. It was random that you were

(18:24):
there. Yeah.
And I was so nervous. And I called you.
And I don't think I'd ever called you before.
And I was like, hi, I'm in your dorm right now.
I have this meeting that I'm nervous about.
Can I just come sit with you for, like, 30 minutes before
going? And you were like, yes, please,
I'm here. And I came and sat on your bed.
And you made me feel better. You made me laugh.

(18:45):
I opened up to you about this thing that I was, like, in
trouble for, that I was kind of ashamed of which I should, you
know, all college students are experimenting with that stuff.
But I, again, I came from such a, like, strict upbringing where
I didn't do anything bad. And I did definitely didn't get
caught for any of the things I was experimenting with.
So I was really scared. And you comforted me.

(19:07):
And from that moment, I was like, yeah, this is gonna be
like, not just my girl in the a cappella group.
This is like we have now levelled up to the next ring of
friendship. So that's how we met.
And then pretty much after that,inseparable.
Yeah. We were like a duo on the
streets of Johns Hopkins University.

(19:28):
I feel like people knew us as a.As a duo, as they still do.
Yeah, they definitely do. They super verbial day and it's
now been 15 years. We've gone through so many
phases of our lives individuallywhile remaining friends, close
friends. We've lived apart, we've lived

(19:51):
in the same city, but we've beenthrough a lot of different
phases of our friendship. And it's something I'm really
proud of that we've like navigated that.
And I think it's something that people want to know more about
because it is very difficult to maintain long term friendships
when like. Yeah, whether it's because you
don't live in the same place anymore or because you are just

(20:13):
in different phases of life. Like maybe somebody is single,
somebody's in a relationship, maybe somebody's like really
focused on school and the other one's more like just like in
their party girl era. And you're not really thinking
up there. Like there's so many ways that
you can be challenged over time.And so people wrote in and

(20:33):
asked, what do you think is key to a long term friendship as you
each grow and change over time? Another one says, key to
maintaining long term friendships.
I struggle. I struggle keeping the ones
outside my proximity, like people that don't live near me.
And also, I'd like to say beforeI hand it off to you, like, not
only have we maintained our friendship over that period of

(20:57):
time, but you and I both are people who have many close, long
term friends. Yep.
You're somebody who. Yeah, like, you have friends who
you've stayed close with since high school.
We have other friends from our acapella group that we are still
just as close with, if not closer.
So yeah, I think like, you're anauthority on this.

(21:21):
And I don't know if you know what it is that's made you be
able to do that, but I wanna. Right.
It's like, do I actually know how to articulate?
I don't know, try, OK, you're good.
I think a big component is allowing grace in terms of no

(21:44):
one is perfect. No one is going to be your
perfect friend. Even the best of friends are
going to have like they're like somebody might say something
that like really rubs you the wrong way.
But to know that your friends are good people and like trust
them and trust their intentions and trust how they feel about

(22:07):
you and the way you feel about them before like jumping to
anything. Yep, I think is really
important, especially when it's folks that you don't see that
often. Like they may not know like
little triggers that people who see you more often, like know
that that's a sensitive space. So like, that's so true.

(22:28):
And maybe you don't even want toexplain that little trigger to
them. So just being able to be like,
OK, that was a weird thing, but I love them enough.
I'm going to let that I feel like I'm not being that
specific. No, I understand exactly what
you're saying. It's giving people the benefit
of the doubt, yes. But I think in order to do that,
there does need to be a level oflike trust, like baseline trust

(22:51):
established based on time. Like, I don't think you can make
a friend a new friend and give them the same level of benefit
of the doubt that, like, you andI can give each other.
So it is one of those things that combines.
It's like time trust. Yeah.
Just like getting to know a person over time so that you can

(23:12):
trust that their intentions are good, even when they mess up
exactly what you're saying. And then choosing when weird
shit comes up to be like, OK, I'm just going to let it pass.
Like people wrote in and asked about conflicts that we've had

(23:32):
and like, have you, has there ever been a big fight?
Or like, can you talk about how you've resolved conflicts?
I think there's, I'll speak for myself and then you tell me if
you feel differently. I think there's been periods of
like discomfort or like uncomfortable things coming up
short periods. But I think that uncomfortable
things have come up in our friendship over the years or

(23:54):
like things that just like rock the boat a little or you're not
sure how the other person's feeling about something.
But I don't think we've ever hadlike a fight or like a big
conflict that we've had to like,resolve unless I'm not, unless
I'm forgetting something. And I think part of the reason

(24:15):
for that is what we're talking about, where like, if something
happens and I'm like, oh, like that kind of felt weird.
Like Kai hung out with somebody and didn't invite me to join or
something. Like, I think a younger version
of myself could have been like alittle sensitive about that, a
little bit like, oh, like they're hanging out without me.

(24:38):
Like, do they still like me? You know, like an insecurity and
rather than making that a big thing, I feel like I've just
developed an, an understanding that like we are separate
people. You will have separate
friendships that you need to maintain with me or without me

(25:02):
or, you know, a combination. And, like, you're not trying to
hurt me. You're just trying to live your
life. And I don't find myself for that
reason. I don't find myself needing to,
like, bring things up with you because I'm kind of just like,
yeah, like, that was weird. And now it's a new day.

(25:25):
And I know, like, on the whole, that Kai's still somebody who
cares a lot about me and prioritizes me and is also
trying to prioritize herself. And so I can just move on.
Does that make sense? Like, I don't view our
friendship as something that's going anywhere.
Oh no. So you're stuck with me, baby.

(25:47):
So even when, like something weird comes up, I'm kind of
like, OK, it's fine. She's not going anywhere.
Yeah. Do you know what?
Am I articulating anything? Yes.
OK. I think like younger version of
me was a much more like possessive friend.

(26:07):
So I like I can recall like likemany, many, many moons ago being
like, oh, like she has other best friends and like meanwhile,
like so did. I, of course, yeah.
But like feeling, I don't know, like oh, like will I be replaced
or like, oh, like maybe this person like just like too much.

(26:30):
But now in my not even now, but like.
Of of recently in in adulthood. In adulthood, maturity, yeah.
Like, I think the fact that we do, both of us have that type,
we're like we're able to have somany different types of like
deep friendships with so many different people.
Yeah. I think that that part of that

(26:51):
similarity between us, like, makes our friendship even
stronger. That's a really I I like how you
said that. Yeah, I think that's true.
It's like, because we both maintain a lot of really close
friendships with a lot of people, some of them are shared
people, some of them are separate people.

(27:11):
Yeah, we just kind of see it as like, well, I'm doing it too.
And it just like feels natural. Yeah, and she's doing it.
And like we've not wavered with each other, so we can just allow
this now. But yeah, I think it, it just
does take time. And I'm trying to think for
somebody who's feeling like the younger version of us, like for
somebody who's feeling that way in a friendship now and they're

(27:36):
like 25 and they're grappling with like, I thought this was my
person. But now they're, you know,
exploring other options, you know, like are they trying to
replace me or has something changed?
Like I'm really trying to put myself in our shoes then and
think about like what I I don't think I did anything.

(27:57):
Right like I. Think I just allowed it to feel
weird and then like kept going right?
Did we ever have to talk about this that I'm not remembering?
But see, but that's a thing though.
I feel like we did, but like it was such a long, long, long time
ago. You remember though, yes.
So tell me about it. I like.
Was a weirdo and like wrote you like an e-mail and was like I

(28:20):
remember using the phrase snow globe because I said I feel like
I put our relationship or like our friendship in this like
little perfect snow globe and like I like it could get like
shaken up and like, I don't know.
I like use some like weird ass like mirror.
Writer. She's a.
Writer and like. I kind of remember this, but I

(28:43):
still don't really but the. Because it wasn't.
It was like. It might have been like.
Right after college, Yeah. Yeah.
OK, Yeah. And so you were feeling like I
was like, do you? Still love me.
Oh wow. Well, we weren't living.
That was our first time. Like not living in this, like

(29:06):
knowing each other and not living in the same place, I
think. Yeah, yeah.
OK. This is.
Kind of like, I don't even remember like what Incited
incite. Is that the word like why I even
like triggered? You wanted to say something.
Yeah. And like, really like what was
even said? I just remember the snow glue
snowball. But like, I wonder if I saw it.

(29:26):
But I like and I we like talked and like it.
Was fun. So did we have a phone call then
after that or something? Or did I just?
Remember how we OK, to be honest, but there's some.
Thread here. OK, so, oh, wow, I'm like, I
don't even know what to make of it 'cause I don't.

(29:46):
That's so crazy. I don't remember.
I feel like we've lived so many lives since then.
I mean, I will say that we were very close in college.
And then you move away and you go do whatever you're going to
do next. And we didn't live in the same
place until I moved to Chicago. Yeah.
So that's five years in between.There was five years and then we

(30:10):
we're in Chicago together. And I do think being in Chicago
has strength, like has taken ourrelationship to new heights.
Yeah. And I know that there was a
period in there like we weren't talking every day necessarily or
like we weren't. No.
And like I was like each other. That school like that was all
different. But it was like not the level of

(30:33):
closeness that we are now because of proximity.
I think mostly I think the thingthat you start to realize as you
keep friends for longer is just like those phases will come and
go. And I think at some point,

(30:54):
probably when I got to Chicago and we were back together here
and COVID happened and we were very much like each other's rock
during that. I would say you were my rock.
We were a pod. We were two peas in a pod.
We were two peas in a pod and like we were Facetiming all the

(31:14):
time. We were talking all the time.
We were, I think, maturing in our friendship because so much
was going on in the world that was stressful that we had to
kind of figure out like how do we show up when we are stressed
out and when like on it, things are so uncertain.

(31:39):
And I feel like somewhere in there is when for me it
solidified as like, oh, Kai's not going anywhere.
I don't know. I'm sure I knew that earlier.
But I think something in there really solidified our friendship
for me. So that now present day we live

(32:00):
close to each other, but we still don't see each other as
much as we would want to, I would say.
Yeah. But I don't worry about that
because so much time has passed and we've been through so many
ebbs and flows and we learned somuch about how to support each
other through a stressful, unknown time that now it's just
like, oh, yeah, this is just like the period that we're in.

(32:23):
And then there will be another one, and then there will be
another one. And I'm not worried about losing
you. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, but I, I think we also do a good job of making concerted
efforts, you know, so like if there's AI feel like if you have
a friend that you're like, oh, like I feel like I haven't seen

(32:44):
them in a while. Like instead of like thinking
about it, just you say, hey, let's go get dinner.
Yes. Like instead of wondering why
you haven't seen them in a while, like just like if you
want to see them, call them, reach out to them.
And then you could. And then if they're being weird
about it, then there's somethingthere.
But don't make it a thing beforeit's even a thing.

(33:05):
Yes, I think we are good at that.
Like time will pass and I'll be like, Dang, like we haven't had
one of our one-on-one, like datenights in a minute.
I've seen you a little, but like, not really.
Yeah. And I don't get in my head about
it. I'm like, wow.
I wonder if Kai just doesn't want to hang out one-on-one
anymore. I just text you and say, can we

(33:27):
do this soon? And then a lot of times you'll
be like, I'm busy for the next three weeks.
And I don't take that personallyeither 'cause I know it's not
personal. No, never.
You know what I mean? How do you arrive there?
Just time and trust. Wow.
It's really, I mean, we say thisto each other a lot.
Like, I feel very grateful for that type of friendship.

(33:51):
I feel grateful that I have several friendships that I think
fit this description. And we're seemingly lucky.
I know that it's rare. Yeah.
So that's why I'm trying to break down like what made it
happen because I want to like help people have the same thing
because I know how much I rely on it.
Yes, everyone should have peoplein their lives that they feel

(34:13):
this way with. But they don't.
Yeah. And I don't know what it is.
I honestly think it goes to whatyou said at the beginning.
It is that it is extending grace, giving the benefit of the
doubt. I think, you know, when
somebody's trying to hurt you orjust like, doesn't give a shit
about your feelings versus when they're just really busy, but

(34:38):
they still care and they still try.
The effort is everything. The intention that you're
talking about is everything. Like even if you can't see each
other for three weeks, there's still always the intention and
the plan to make it happen. Yeah.
I think if somebody's not givingyou that, then that's a data

(35:00):
point. Sounds like maybe maybe there's
a shift, maybe they're not prioritizing you in the way that
you want to be or in the way that you're prioritizing them.
But if it continues to be over along period of time that like
the effort continues to be made even when things, even when
there are impediments or even when there's like different life
stages, then yeah, I think that you just have to be like, OK.

(35:23):
This is one of those times when we're gonna go three weeks.
But yeah, I'm not worried. Spring has sprung and even
though I know that it's like thefake out that always happens.
If you live in a cold place thenyou know the February March fake
out is real and I am expecting snow in like three to five

(35:46):
business days. But for now, spring has sprung
and it makes me feel like I justwant to go on my walks and eat
my salads and make my food at home and sub potatoes for sweet
potatoes and just do all the stuff that makes me feel good.
And it's working great so far. The last couple of days have
been peak. That is where every plate comes

(36:08):
in. You guys know I love a meal
subscription service where they send you all the ingredients
portioned out. I don't have to think about
recipes. I don't have to think about
grocery shopping. Especially on the weeks when
things are super busy and not even my personal chef Ryan is
available to make me dinner. I can just turn to my every
Plate box that's delivered rightto my door and find healthy,

(36:32):
delicious options that feel likerestaurant quality or like the
same thing that I would be if I were to order on door Dash or
something. We made these like pork taquitos
that Every Plate sent us a couple weeks ago and I'm still
thinking about them and it's amazing because they were so
much healthier. I could see everything that was
going into them and they're so much healthier than getting

(36:55):
Mexican takeout or something, which I am known and prone to
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(37:18):
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(37:48):
OK, here's something somebody wrote.
Maintaining long term friends, frequency of Hangouts.
We kind of touched on this. How to keep in touch, picking
one, picking when to tell them about something important.
I think that's interesting. Yeah.
Do you think that means like important to your friendship,

(38:11):
important to like something individual for you?
I think. We can talk about both.
I don't know what they mean I. OK, for the first important to
the friendship, I think there isa a benefit to being upfront and
transparent with your friends ifthere's something that's bugging

(38:34):
ya. Yeah, like I and I know we just
spent a good chunk of time talking about like, oh, let it
go. We let us.
I think it's if you're not thereyet.
Yeah, 'cause we you, 'cause you didn't let it go 10 years ago.
You know you wrote me an e-mail.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm not saying that like you didn't let it go, I'm just

(38:54):
saying like you were direct withme 10 years ago, 'cause we
weren't there yet. Yeah, now we are at a place
where we let things go. But yeah, go on.
And I guess. It could also depend on what The
thing is. If it's something that like
every time you see them, you're gonna be a little peeved then
like you. Gotta just you gotta talk about
your experience of that. And that's gonna shift your

(39:16):
whole if it's gonna shift. Your whole dynamic.
So how do you go about having that direct conversation?
Do you say I want to talk to youabout something?
Can we find a time or do you just I?
Think that's the most mature way?
Yeah, 'cause I think I have in the past like sent someone like

(39:37):
a long text and I just, in retrospect, that's just never
the way. I have a rule against sending
long texts at this point in my life, and I think anyone's ever.
Yeah, unless it's like me being like La La la, la.
Like listen to the stupid thing that just.
Write something really funny or like something like dramatic.

(39:58):
They're like, I need to just notdramatic and like something.
Weird, just and like like a man just like winked at me on the.
Bus Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like if I have an issue I
feel like I shouldn't be sendingyou a big chunk.
Right, just in the middle of theday, whenever, right whenever
you're ready to send it. I think you got to say, hey, I

(40:19):
wanted to talk to you about something like, could we find a
time to talk this week or something?
Yeah. And like, yes, that is a scary
text to receive, but I think you'd rather receive that than
it'd either be like they never send it and then you sense that
something is. Off yeah, but the person create
stuff in your head about it. Also, if somebody texts you
like, hey, can we find a time this week to talk about it and

(40:40):
you're too anxious to wait till Thursday?
You can always be like, yeah, I'm free tonight, can we talk
about it tonight? You can just try to RIP the
Band-Aid as long as they're available.
You know what I mean, 'cause I do get really anxious if I
receive that type of text and I'll be thinking about it and
stressing about it for the days that come.
Until that conversation happens,I'd rather just have the
conversation sooner. But I agree with you like that

(41:03):
is the right way. I think we got good at that
during COVID. Not that there was really
anything specific that we had totalk about when it came to our
friendship. I think more with the other
thing, like when one of us was going through something
individually and we wanted to like a vent to each other or get
advice or whatever, we got really good at checking in and

(41:26):
being like, hey, do you have space to receive event from me
right now? Like can I call you invent or if
not, that's OK, we can talk about it later.
Yeah. Or like that's one thing we got
good at. And I think another thing we got
good at is when one of us is venting, the other one checking

(41:48):
in and asking like. What do you need?
What do you need? From me Do you want advice?
Do you want just me to listen? Do you want, like, what do you
want? I mean, I think we always affirm
each other, but like, yeah, whatdo you, what exactly do you
need? I think those are the basics
that nobody teaches you to do that.

(42:09):
And you just have to like mess up enough times 'cause I think
that's what I did. I I'm such a problem solver and
I run to fix things for the people that I love all the time
and I like pissed off enough people mostly my sister pissed

(42:29):
her off enough times where I'm like she's venting to me and I'm
trying to fix the problem where I finally realized like oh I
need to back off. They people just need to say get
it out into the void sometimes and have someone there nodding
and comforting them. And I think we got really good
at that. I agree.

(42:50):
In what ways are you 2 total opposites?
I think a lot. Yeah, you're a lot neater than I
am. Messy girly.
That's true. Thanks for saying it so I didn't
have to be the one to say, oh, my God, Can you imagine?
She's a messy freak. I think you're better at
confrontation than I am. Oh, wow.

(43:13):
People keep saying I'm good at confrontation.
I mean, I am an attorney. Yeah.
Please. I Yeah, I think that you do not
shy away from confrontation. I do.
I've gotten way better at it. I also think there's a
difference between that and direct communication.
I think I'm very direct. But I think, yeah, if I sense

(43:37):
that something is going to like create conflict, then I don't,
I, I like wait a long time to have that conversation or do
that thing or have that confrontation.
I think that you're way more solid in yourself when you
approach conflict. Like you don't fear it.

(43:58):
I fear it, you know. Now part of that I think though
is like a toxic trait of mine because I am a human that thinks
I'm right about everything untilyou tell me that I'm like, you
have to. You can tell me that I'm wrong
and then I need like proof of why I'm wrong.
Yeah. And even if I don't say it in

(44:21):
the moment, now I've said it like I am thinking that if you
like, confront me with something, you're like, you're
wrong about this thing. Oh, OK.
Yeah, that's true. It's like that's true.
You are like that. But I like that about you.
Oh. OK, well.
I mean, I could see how other people might be like, oh, but I,
I think I just know that about you.
And I'm just kind of like, usually it's not about stuff

(44:43):
that matters because I think we agree on like a lot of the big
things and the core things. So like, oh, we were just saying
downstairs with Ryan, I was like, there's only three
episodes of White Lotus out right now.
And you were like, it's four. And I was like, it's not, it's I
don't really care that that's a point where where you think for

(45:07):
a second that you're right when you're wrong.
Like, I don't really care. I am bringing it up now, but
that's just 'cause we're recording a podcast.
Our other ways we're opposites or ways that we're similar.
You work out. I don't go to the gym.
OK, you're good at working out at home, and I hate that you're
good at just being like, I just got my yoga mat out and I'm

(45:30):
just, like, breathing with my cat on my stomach.
Yeah, and I would never do anything like that.
I'm also allergic to cats. Well, another opposite.
Yeah. I'm a dog person.
You're a cat person. OK, You don't like to be called
a cat person, but you literally have a cat.
I do. I recall I used to be afraid of

(45:51):
cats. I really.
Mars is afraid of cats. My mother Levelland RIP grandma
afraid of cats. They pass it down generation to
generation. I was afraid of cats until law
school. Okay, I used to have to call.
Why did you get so when? Because so one time, Brianna, my
law school roommate, shout out Bree, she thought that she heard

(46:15):
mice in the walls and she was like, we should get a cat.
And I was like, you know what? I'd rather have a cat in this
home than have mice running amok.
And now I'm starting to think maybe she didn't hear mice in
the walls, because I never thought she.
Just wanted any proof of and sheknew that would get you.
And so we got these kittens and they were the size of your hand,

(46:36):
just little tiny babies. And I cried when I saw them
'cause they were so cute and so small.
So but. But I used to be afraid the
year, maybe even that same year,'cause we got them in the
summer. I one time I saw a cat
downstairs in the hall. I had to call Brianna to come
get me. Yeah, you do have a lot of these

(46:57):
things like you. I have fears I'm afraid of.
Birds. But I'm not afraid of dogs.
I love a dog. Somebody wrote and was like,
defend us. They were like, I'm afraid of
birds too, defend us. What do you want to say for
them? I'm going to say they were
correct. That's number.
We're correct to have the fear because an animal that can fly,

(47:18):
that has talons and a beak. You make it sound scarier when
you emphasize when you articulate talons.
It has sharp. Things poking out of it, Right,
Right. They will fly, yes, but a cat's

(47:38):
gonna curl up. Everyone wants to just go to
sleep and eat and maybe have thezoomies a couple times.
You know, it scares me when theyhave the.
Zoomies. They're not flying around.
They. Might as well I I.
Recall I was attacked by a pigeon.
Tell us more. Tell us about that.
I was relaxing by the pool at The MGM Grand Las Vegas at a

(48:04):
pool. Thank you.
I thought I was in a place of luxury.
Here comes this pigeon sits nextto me and the little chair next
to me. I get up because I didn't want
it with the pigeon. I I said you want to sit here.
You know what? You.
You know, took your clam on thischair.
I'm going to get up. I get up.

(48:25):
It rises with me. I start.
I just, I start to quickly try to walk away.
It's flying towards me. Then I start running.
I dive onto the ground. The pigeon is in my hair.
It's like up in here and it's like making its little sound.
And that's. It wasn't actually making sounds
it. Was making sounds it was
fluttering around. I can like hear it and I'm on

(48:48):
the ground mind you. So I'm on a Bachelorette.
My ex is this is ex's Bachelorette.
They're all sit sitting in frontof me, so they don't really know
what's going on because I was trying not to scream as to not
disturb the rest of the pool patrons.
Very thoughtful. So then I get I'm like out of

(49:08):
breath. I like come around.
I'm like, you guys, you know, I've just, I've just been
attacked and they're all just, they're all just sitting there
being like, no, you weren't likethey're just like, no.
One believes they didn't believe.
Me. But the people across from us,
they're like, Oh my God, are youOK?
Like we saw it all because they saw me like, right.
I. Hope that somebody took footage

(49:30):
of that and it's like on the Internet.
So I mean, I don't hope that. I hope not.
I hope your face isn't in it, but I hope it's there so that I
can see it one. Day.
I mean, I'm sure it's a sight tobehold.
Wow. But you feared birds and pigeons
before, and it's not like that happened.
And then you, I feared it beforethat event.
And then I felt justified in my fear.

(49:53):
I mean, you've seen, remember that time walking down the
boardwalk? I know.
I mean the. It's one of my main roles.
Lying in my face, I'm just walking and it's just flying
into my face. It's.
Disgusting. I don't like them, I'm just not.
I think that some birds are pretty.
I can appreciate that pretty birds exist.
And I can appreciate birds of prey.

(50:14):
Like, I appreciate their power. Like, interesting.
It's like, I respect them, OK. But like a pigeon, a seagull,
like, get out of here. Wow.
Seagulls are kind of. Cool.
I think they're goofy. They're stealing snacks.
They're. Funny.
Yeah, it's funny. I'm sitting on the beach with my
hot Cheeto and it's very much Cheeto He.

(50:36):
Carried them in his scarlet or whatever.
Now, was that a seagull or was that a Pelican?
Oh no, I don't know the difference.
A Heron? Yeah, I don't know the
difference. I don't know.
I don't know about birds. Don't ask me bird facts.
OK? I think we've done enough on the
long term friendship topic. Don't they get it?
They get it. We love each other and we're

(50:58):
lucky and I don't know how to help you with yours.
Let's go on to Here's another thing about you, Akai TE Wow.
OK, don't mind me. It's.
Like crack my hoops, you are a single lady.
No, I'm a single lady. Yeah, you are 33.

(51:21):
That's right, as am I. And I think that's a very
important perspective that we don't get to share on the
podcast between me and Caroline.We can reflect on when we were
single, but you know what the scene is like currently.
And for this age, yes, yeah. So.

(51:42):
Scene is bleak. People just generally wanted you
to talk about that. They related they were like, one
person said. Classic cue about being single
and 30 plus I don't want foreversingle to be an option.
Same. I know another person said how

(52:03):
do you not feel bitter when you see other people being happy
with their significant others? Written from someone that's
trying to be less of a hater. OK, there's a few more in this
category, but let's just open itup.
I feel like, yeah, I have thoughts on how I watch you

(52:24):
moving through things with graceand confidence and patience and
respect to yourself. So I yeah, I think you're a
great person to speak on this. But yeah, I'll let you go.
Now the bitterness question really struck me.
OK, I think just in general about relationships or like any

(52:48):
other things like I feel like things that are for me are for
me, right? I It's hard for me to be jealous
of someone in a relationship with a person unless it was
like, that was my ex-boyfriend who I thought I was going to
marry. Otherwise, yeah, OK, cool.
Like, I want my friends to be like, happy in their
relationships and their careers and their friendships.

(53:09):
Like I yeah, it would be weird for me to not want them to be
frolicking about happy with their person.
'Cause you're like that person'sfor you.
Right. It's like, that's not my person.
I'm not jealous 'cause it's not my person, right?
It's a very good way to think about it.
And I would think they would feel the same way for me, yeah.

(53:32):
So did you ever? Has this always come easy to
you, or have you had to like shift your perspective at all?
I think I have had to shift 'cause I think there have been
like thinking about people who have been in loving
relationships since like whenever, like they've just like

(53:53):
always had their person. It's like.
How is it like high school sweetheart type of thing?
It's like how? How do the cards lay out that
like some people get to like be in this loving, romantic,
whatever and here I am just trying to get a text back.
Yeah, yeah. So I guess, like, I don't know,

(54:16):
therapy helps. And I think being in a
relationship hasn't always been a top priority.
So it hasn't been something thatI had been thinking about as
being the number one thing that I want to experience.

(54:38):
Oh, that's very interesting. Like in college.
Yeah. I mean, I, I went on dates with
people and like, had little. Oh, I guess I did have.
I guess I did have some. You had some stuff going on.
I had some stuff going on, but it wasn't.
I don't know. You didn't think of it as like

(54:59):
serious long term. You were just like having fun in
college. Having fun in college and then
what? I took off a couple years and
was in AmeriCorps and then like living with my parents.
So like I wasn't trying to like,I don't know.
You weren't like in a setup where you could seriously date

(55:19):
as an adult, like living on yourown type of thing yet, correct?
OK. And then going to law school, I
feel like I was back in the samescenario, just like, I'm just
trying to get this degree. Yeah.
And yeah. And like, I still, you know, did
date people, but it just, like, wasn't, again, it wasn't the
focus. So I think the time frame that

(55:41):
I've even really been thinking about it and that serious of a
way has I guess been the last like 5.
Yeah, five to seven years, as opposed to like since I was a
teen and being like, oh gosh, I wish.
We are similar in that way. Like I didn't date in high
school in college. I I went on my first date after

(56:05):
college when I was like 22 in DC.
Living in DC, it was like never a priority in my household.
That makes a difference too, I think.
Both come from, well, your dad'san immigrant from Nigeria.
And then both my parents are immigrants from Lebanon.
I think that has something to dowith it.
Like the immigrant household is very focused on like, education

(56:29):
and career and like, independence.
Yep. Financial independence.
Yeah. Like individual confidence,
especially in their daughters. I think our our families were
both that way. And so yeah, it like wasn't on
the radar for a really long time.
It's like back of that helped back.

(56:50):
Of the mind for sure. You know that one day you want
it, right? Yeah.
But you're just not like, so then when you see, yes, I see
what you're saying. So like when you were younger,
seeing people get into relationships or whatever, it
was just kind of like, oh, OK. Like I'm not even really trying
to do that. So like, no.
I don't even feel jealous of it,seemed stressful.
Yeah, it did. She's like.

(57:11):
Oh, did we gotta think about what that means?
With each other, we were like, why are you all trying to date
men like we are like, we got it just frolicking about.
Yeah, Yeah. So then in the last five to
seven years, as you said, where you have been a little bit more
like, OK, I'm, you know, I've established my career.
I'm like living a good life in Chicago.

(57:33):
And you do want to find someone.I don't even know what the
question is, but it's a topic. Right, It is a topic and it is,
it can be. This is the thing.
It can be fun, right? Like dating can be a fun time
even if it doesn't look the way you thought it would or timing

(58:00):
isn't happening the way you would imagine.
Like I have to, and this is again, therapy.
I have to like take a step back and be like, I can enjoy
whatever, even if like these dates are just, they're just
dates. And it's sometimes it's fun to
go on a date And even if that doesn't mean I'm going to be

(58:24):
with this person forever or likewe're going to have kids or
whatever. But like we went and we played
some games at a bar. Great.
Like that's nice. And sometimes it just has to be
like that present. We're just taking it for what it
is in the moment. And I have to believe that there

(58:48):
are folks out there who are intentional about dating.
And like, hopefully I will encounter some of those people
'cause, you know, you hear tell of them and you see them like
you see like your friends in relationship with people who
like, they met on the apps or like whatever.

(59:08):
And they've become these beautiful relationship.
So you're like, OK, it is possible, right?
And like those friends didn't know when they were gonna
encounter those people. Like they didn't know they were
gonna meet Someone Like, You know, in school or wherever
they. Did.
Yep. Yeah, you kind of have to just

(59:29):
know that the timing, it's like an unpredictable thing.
And when you can accept that it's unpredictable and it's kind
of like out of your control. Yes.
You can have. More fun with it that's out of
your control. Yeah, because it's it.
Dating does feel like the one thing in my life that I
genuinely cannot control. Like I can control.

(59:49):
Like I can't control everything at work, but it's like I can
control what I put out at work and like I can control how I
interact. With and you're the.
Ruler, my friends, I am the ruler.
Yes, I do wear the crowd can. Control it, yes.
What that I could just be like line these boys up and let me
just pick the ones right But. It is, it is that I used to

(01:00:13):
think about that a lot when I was single, like, and dating and
even like early in my relationship with Ryan, like
early with anyone when you're still not sure like what it is
the fact that even if I wanted this to be the person and I was
ready for it and I felt like they were a good fit for me and
whatever, they also had to thinkthat.

(01:00:36):
Yeah. So like as opposed to.
Yeah, almost every other aspect of life where of course you
don't control everything. The there's many factors that
are out of your control in life and in the world, but you can do
a lot to get to where you want to be.
And when it comes to like your career or your friendships or
like how you spend your days, you can be really intentional

(01:01:00):
and like see the output of that over time.
And with dating, it literally islike a 5050 decision between you
and the other person or a hundred, a hundred decision, you
know? And so, yeah, I remember feeling
like, uh, this is out of my control.
I don't get to make it so that the person I want things to

(01:01:23):
happen with also wants those things to happen.
I have an announcement Kooks andthis is something that's been
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(01:01:45):
I have not gotten there on underwear yet.
I think Caroline is there with the underwear but my priority as
a 38 double D bra size that is prone to sweat and rubbing and
discomfort and digging in and I don't know, sometimes I even get
like scarring from bra straps that are too tight or just not

(01:02:07):
working for me. My priority has been to find
bras that actually feel supportive and soft and
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And you know that SKIMS has beenmy go to for that for the last
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(01:02:29):
obsessed with from Skims is the Fitz everybody T-shirt bra.
I've talked to you guys ears offabout their bra.
Let's I have the scoop neck, I have the racerback, I have the
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But recently I picked up the T-shirt bra, which is a pretty
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(01:02:50):
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me. And this bra has become a go to.
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the bra let's are more of my day-to-day when I want my boobs
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survey and be sure to select ourshow in the drop down menu that
follows. What are your most recent
thoughts as a single, hot, desirable, talented and

(01:03:56):
intelligent catch of a 33 year old woman?
Like what are what's like literally current day Kai
feeling about dating? You have a roster, so that I
think helps you I. Got a nice, I got a little two
man roster. They're hustling out here.
That's right, I think I feel a little impatient sometimes

(01:04:25):
'cause I do. I am enjoying the fun that I'm
having, right? Like, and that's nice, but there
is still this sense of like, allright.
Like I've, I've been patient forsome time and I've been open and
I've been like trying different things.

(01:04:47):
Like, I've done speed dating. I've met people in the apps,
like, dated a friend of a friendand like I've, yeah, you know,
tried the different things. You've met people at bars like,
you're outgoing, like. Like I'm a a bubbly little girl.
Like I'm. Signed up for badminton.

(01:05:08):
Meeting people, I think it has been very important for me to
not dwell in like, oh, what is it about me like to feel
comfortable and feel confident that like I am a worthy human
of. You're worthy of love.

(01:05:30):
Yes, and I know, and I feel likeI say this a lot, that I'm like
very emotionally and like socially spoiled because I think
I have a ridiculous amount of love sources.
Yeah, that I know not everyone has, like I think family wise,

(01:05:50):
friend wise, even folks that I wish didn't love me.
Like you have a lot of people who are obsessed with you and
you're like, please, I don't have the time or energy.
Like, I don't have it, yeah, butlike that, even though I don't
want it. Blessing, right?
Yeah, but it's. Just not in the romantic way

(01:06:12):
yet. Right.
Yeah. And it's like I have experienced
different romantic whatevers. Relationships.
You've had adult relationships. I have and I've and I've learned
from them can't be giving them too much.

(01:06:33):
But yeah. So I think I could feel hopeful
in the sense that because I've, I have experienced love in so
many different ways that like, Iwould think that love that I,
I'm looking for is coming. Right.
Well, you know, you're worthy oflove because you experience so

(01:06:55):
much love all the time from so many people.
So yeah, it just has to lock in in that way.
But I do think you're hitting onsomething important because like
over the course of our adult life together where like we've
lived in Chicago, we were both single together for a time.

(01:07:16):
You were in a relationship when when I was not for a time.
I'm now in a relationship when you are not for a time.
I feel like it has come up in your processing and like
development and maturing around dating and around romantic

(01:07:37):
relationships and wanting romantic love.
It has come up this feeling of like, is it something about me?
Like I've heard you talk about situations where somebody didn't
want to keep going, didn't want what you wanted, or just like
wasn't treating you the way thatyou deserve.

(01:07:59):
And I've heard you say things tothat effect of like, what is it
about me? And I'm really glad that you
feel like you're not there anymore, because it's hard to
watch. For the most part, it was like
we all we all did it it. Gets I'm sure it gets poked on.
I mean, I feel that way in a relationship sometimes when,

(01:08:19):
when we're not seeing eye to eyeand like I feel like I'm being,
I'm seeing like some of the worst parts of me come out, you
know, if we're like in conflict and now I'm getting really
snappy and like, I will then sometimes go to a insecure place

(01:08:42):
of like, like it's me, like I'm the problem.
I'm the worst. I, you know, so like, I think
that that happens no matter where you're at.
But I just know it does feel like that used to come up more
for you when dating like a couple years ago.
And I remember text conversations we would have

(01:09:04):
where I would be like, it's not about you.
It's totally about them and it'sreally hard to like absorb that
and believe it. Do you have thoughts on like
what made you get there or get closer to there therapy?
Therapy, just doing more things that I like to do and just like

(01:09:29):
fulfilling yourself. Yeah.
Like if there's a fun thing thatI want to do, that sounds like
it would be a cute date, and I think I've been trying to pull
away from like saving stuff for dates.
Yes, you have been doing that and you've been doing a great
job at it. Thanks.
Even though on Friday you went to my favorite restaurant alone
without me and I were like wouldhave met you there.

(01:09:52):
But I'm happy that you did something on your own.
Whatever. That's nice.
We'll go back. We'll go back, but yeah, you
have. I feel like about a year ago you
made that an intention like. To date myself.
Yeah, you're like, I want to go.I have all these places that
I've like pinned that I want to go to, and I don't know what am
I waiting for? I should take myself to them.

(01:10:13):
Yeah. And I have a great time.
I'm great company so. How do you have a great time
when you go out on your own, like, and was that, did that
come easy or did you have to getcomfortable with it?
Like what was that process like?Because people write us about
that and I think somebody wrote wrote in with that question.
Let me actually find it and she said.
What are some of your favorite solo activities?

(01:10:34):
Trying to take time to be with myself heart.
I also am a creepy like people watcher.
That's the. Best part?
So if that's something that you enjoy, you can really lean into
it. So where, where do you go to
people watch? Like what are the best spots?
Just like a corner. Just just walk outside to your

(01:10:58):
nearest. To your nearest corner, Any
corner. I have been finding just like
going to a bar for a little cocktail and I like bring my
book like a little sweet little baby nerd and like people like
are really intrigued by people that read books at the bar.

(01:11:19):
Like people are gonna come up and be like, oh, what are you
reading like? People talk to you?
Yeah. Oh.
Yeah, it's kind of fun. Usually women.
No, it's dude. It's a mix.
Wow. It's honestly a mix.
OK, Which is nice. That is cool.
Yeah. I like that.
There's something. OK, hold on.
Because you literally sit at thebar.

(01:11:40):
Sit at the bar so you're like chatting with the bartender.
Don't go. Don't.
You can do this, but you won't get talked to probably as much
if you go and sit at like a table.
Oh, correct. Yeah, yeah.
Or a high top or something you. Gotta be at the bar you have.
To be at the bar because it's more of like the social OK.
And people are coming in and out, so they're like, taking
their drink back. And then they're like, oh, like,
what are you reading? Yeah, OK, OK.

(01:12:01):
Cute. That's a good one.
Now it's getting nice out, just like going to the park, going
to, I don't know, where else do people go or not people.
I guess it's me. That's what we're asking about.
We want to know about you, and we want to know like, yeah, how
do you make that not feel weird?So a book is a way.

(01:12:22):
For sure a book. I mean, just know that no one is
looking at you and being like that loser.
Yeah, sitting there by themselves, like.
If anything, I think they're looking at you being like
that's. Cool.
That's cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like. She's confident to just go and
sit. Right, you're just hanging out.

(01:12:44):
I wish I could do that. And you can.
Yeah, people asked. They're like fascinated and in
awe about her work, if she couldshare something about why she
chose it. Somebody wrote.
How do you balance work life? I'm super interested in law but
always over commit myself. Yeah, I'm considering going to

(01:13:06):
law school. Do you regret it?
What's your work life balance? I say only go to law school if
you really, really, really want to be a lawyer.
Sometimes people go to law school because they're like, I
don't know what else to do. I guess lawyers go to law
school. That's insane.
Not worth it for sure not worth it.
So many things you can do. Yes.
If that's your reason then do not do it.

(01:13:28):
Think about literally anything else that exists.
I have so many friends who are lawyers and it's like, it's a
lot. It is a lot and there's, there
are many different directions you can go in your law practice.
I mean, I I knew going into law school that I wanted to do

(01:13:51):
something that was helping people.
You know she's noble, Noble queen, noble ruler.
I just, I would never be, or I guess I can't say never, but I
would think I wouldn't really beprompted to do work at all
unless it was like, oh, like I'mhelping someone who otherwise

(01:14:13):
like wouldn't be able to get this help.
Otherwise, I would prefer to be a Princess in a castle.
Well, of course. So you don't dream of Labor?
I do not. I don't have a dream job.
I you. Work really hard.
Can we talk about that? Hold on, that's huge that you
don't have a dream job. I.
Know that about you. I'm not saying I'm not.

(01:14:35):
Oh. Yeah, but it's.
It's weird. Oh yeah.
Yeah. I'm saying that is something I
believe is revolutionary, that more people need to hear about.
I can't believe it's not the norm.
I don't know it. Well, you know what I can't
believe? We live in a capitalist society.
We gotta make money so we can eat and take care of our cats.

(01:15:00):
But I don't dream of it. It's not like it's not my when I
think about what I want to be and accomplish in this life, I
don't know that it's about work.And I also think that because I

(01:15:21):
kind of rose in my career quicker than I anticipated, I'm
like, oh, I did it. I'm good.
I can retire. Yeah.
I'm like, OK, cool. Like I think starting out at
this job, sweet baby attorney, fresh out of school, like I was

(01:15:43):
like, oh, like maybe one day, like I'll be legal director and
like, you know, 10 years from now, like, we'll see like cute
little, you know, wide eyed, whatever.
And then now I'm doing it and I'm like, OK, what else is there
in this life? You know, yeah, like you may
have romanticized what that would mean about you.

(01:16:07):
Yes. And now you're there faster than
expected. Yeah.
And you're like, it doesn't really change much about me.
No. I mean, obviously there's a lot
of development that's happened and you learn from it and
whatever you need more money like all these things, but like.

(01:16:27):
And I, I think I've grown a lot through my work, whether or not
I want that to be something thatdefines me.
Like I think things within it have been defining for me if
that makes sense. Yeah, like navigating certain
problems and dynamics and stuff like that. 1,000,000%.

(01:16:48):
OK, I think we're going to wrap up pretty soon, but I want to do
a little thing where I'm going to ask you to give me hot takes
on various topics that were submitted by people and that I
thought of as well. Your take can be quick or it can
be long. You can make it whatever you
want. What if it's not hot?

(01:17:09):
They're never hot. OK, Yeah, OK.
We'll start with one that came up at the beginning of the
episode, Reality TV. Love of my life.
OK, great. It's not a hot take.
It's more people should enjoy it.
More people, they hate on reality TV and they think

(01:17:29):
they're above it, say it, and they think, oh, it's all
scripted. It's all this is not a
reflection of real life. You're not watching it.
You can't really. You haven't really.
Or maybe you haven't found your brand of reality TV.
But I do think that there is an Ave. of reality TV for everyone.
I totally agree. I also know, because there's

(01:17:52):
been like articles about it, that people who watch reality TV
are smarter. Of course they are.
There's like an emotional intelligence aspect that you
learn through watching reality TV and you get to comment on and
you get to talk to your friends about.
Like, that is why I watch reality TVI love to watch the
intricacies of like people meeting and dating and like, oh

(01:18:16):
wow, this this connection was missed simply because of like
the way that person communicatedthis thing and the way that this
person heard it like. That is, and then they told
their friend and then, you know,goes through the whatever.
What is it? Called Grapevine.
Yeah. And next thing you know,
somebody's thrown plates at eachother, OK?

(01:18:38):
Cereal. Oh my take.
It's dessert. I just went Yum.
Cereal is dessert, or any cerealthat's good is dessert.
And if you're eating any cereal that doesn't taste like dessert,
why are you eating that? Right.
What's the point? How you eat it specifically?

(01:18:59):
I like my favorite cereal is Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
I like to eat it at night for dessert with a very freezing
cold cup of milk. So I'm going to put a mug of
milk into the freezer and I'm scraping it out for that's how
long. Is it in the?
Freezer about 40 to 45 minutes. You put milk in the freezer for

(01:19:21):
40 to 45 minutes before you wantto eat the cereal, correct?
And then you take it out and then.
It's it's shards of milk that I'm scraping out into my cereal
and then I eat it. Like a you dump it on top of the
cereal, right? Because don't pour the cereal.
Onto it. I've never been a milk first
girly. I probably should.
I've never been a frozen milk. Girl, you know how this really

(01:19:43):
start. I just know that one time I had
a bowl of cereal with milk that wasn't cold enough and I said
never again. And now I want it as cold as it
can be and that way by the time you get to the end, it's still
very cold milk. But at the beginning it's like
pointy. I mean you, you kind of you kind
of like mush it down slushy, yes.
Yes, I still have never tried this and you've been talking

(01:20:05):
about it for years. Maybe you'll do it right after
this. Wow.
OK, People who feed pigeons in public places, somebody actually
wrote this in because I said that you don't like birds.
So I know we talked about it a little bit.
I think that's it. I just why?
I think the lip smack said it all.
Hate it? Ghosting.

(01:20:29):
Everyone. Now I think everyone ghosts.
I'll say that. There's the hot take.
I've ghosted so. So have I, So I think obviously
the best thing to do is text a person and save a nice message.
However. Sometimes I don't.
It's nice to say, right? Sometimes it's like if I message
you back, I'm actually going to hurt you more so.

(01:20:53):
Say more about that. Like I've I'm thinking about a
very specific ghost thing where like I did go on a couple dates
with this guy and like we, you know, had some nice times, but
he was annoying and I just, I was just like, I don't, there's

(01:21:17):
no how do you tell someone they're annoying after two days?
You can't be like, I don't want to be in your presence anymore
'cause you're irritating. I don't like your.
Personality I don't like. I don't like your personality.
I don't like the way you communicate.
I don't like that you don't wearreal underwear and that you wear
like basketball shorts under your pants.

(01:21:39):
Should I text you that? No.
What I'm going to do instead is just not talk to you again.
That's exactly the take I needed.
And you're saving lives by doingthat, right?
OK, he's. Listening.
Why would he be this? Can you imagine?
He looked. Down at his.
We have literally like 7 men wholistened to this and he's one of

(01:22:01):
them. OK, difficult to pronounce names
please. Story of my life.
But talk about the people. Just talk about the people.
Well, here's what I'll say. I don't think most people

(01:22:21):
actually have difficult to pronounce names.
I think they just have names youhaven't heard before.
There it is. And unless you're an idiot, you
can pronounce that person's namebecause they just pronounced it
and they didn't have a seizure and fall out.
So you can also do it too. That's the craziest is when you
say your name Ikayate, I'm Akayate.

(01:22:43):
And people might say, oh, can you repeat that or something?
Right. That's OK, ask me to.
Repeat it, say it, and even say it wrong and I'll correct you
right? Because guess what?
I've been correcting people on how to pronounce my name my
whole life. You were not the first.
But then if they continue to like, not know how to say it
because doesn't that happen to you all?
People. I've had people immediately ask

(01:23:03):
me for a nickname because they've decided they're not even
going to try to learn how to saymy name.
Well, I've had people, I mean people love to tell me that my
name means shut up in Spanish. And I have to be like, you know,
I'm not. Spanish.
Like you can ask me what my nameactually means, right?
Like how about we play that game, right?

(01:23:23):
But people think it's like really funny at like this, like
big age, like people in their 30s are like ha ha, your name
means shut up. And it's like, that's so.
Dumb. What do you what would you like
me to say back to you now? Where?
What space are we in now? I'm imagining a person when I
first introed you at the beginning of this episode, and I

(01:23:44):
said, this is my best friend Akayate.
I call her Kai. Whatever.
I'm imagining that a person at that time wrote a comment on
YouTube being like, Oh my gosh, her name.
I'm sure her name means shut up in Spanish.
And now we're here at this part of the episode.
Delete your comment. OK.
Did you hear about the Meg the Stallion Hannah burner thing on

(01:24:07):
the red carpet? A few days ago, like at the
Oscars or something. I don't know who that is.
Hannah Burner, correct? Yeah.
Megan Stallion is love of my life.
Yeah, I know. So you didn't hear about it?
No. Can I tell you about it, please?
Oh, my God. Now which red carpet?
I don't know like. Which dress she?
Wears. I was she wearing the green with
the green? OK, that was the Vanity Fair.

(01:24:28):
Vanity Fair. Oscar Party?
Is that what it was? My?
Girl Megan. OK please.
So there is this comedian and podcaster named Hannah Berner.
She she originally was on the show Summer House, which is like
a Bravo show, right? I never watched that show.
I don't find her comedy to be very original.

(01:24:48):
Tough, Hannah. And I think their podcast is
like pretty popular though. And like, I'm, I bet that
there's people who listen to this podcast, who listen to
their podcast. It's called Giggly Squad.
It's her and another girl. Yeah, it's her and another girl
from also Summer House named Paige Desorbo.
So the two of them were like chosen to do interviews on the

(01:25:12):
red carpet at the Vanity Fair Oscars party.
And there's a lot of really cringy clips that came out from
that of them just like not reading the room, making it all
about themselves. Like they were kind of treating
it like a podcast episode where like the two of them banter as
opposed to interviewing the celebrity on the red carpet who

(01:25:33):
is a much more important and famous person than they are.
So it just read wrong. Specifically, there was 11
moment where they were talking to Meg the stallion and Hannah
goes like like I love your music.
I love it so much. It just makes me it.
I listen to it when I just want to fight someone.

(01:25:56):
OK, so you did hear I. Saw a tweet that said like
Megan's music makes you wanna fight Meanwhile and then they
like they posted whatever of like Megan meme.
Well, it was her responding in some interview about like why
she doesn't like to fight Cuz she's like I'm pretty.
She's like she's like look at mynails, look at my hair like I'm

(01:26:19):
not trying to mess any of this up.
Like why would I fight Like I don't have time to be getting
messed up like what exactly? But she's like, So what about
this makes? You wanna fight?
Yep. So people are saying, and I
agree with them, so I wanted youto give a hot take, but since
you don't know about it, I'll just fill you in and I'm sure
you'll agree too. But you might have more to add,

(01:26:40):
which is people are saying like it was a microaggression because
Meg the stallion is a black woman.
Hannah Berner is a white woman. She's assuming or like kind of
just like purporting that oh, like this black rapper makes me
wanna fight when actually Meg the stallion's music is very
much like very like female empowerment and like confidence
being confidence sexy. Like like she she talks about

(01:27:03):
like mental health in some of her songs.
Like it's very. It's not about that and instead
like. Which song are you even talking
about? Meg the stallion like responded
in some sort of way that was like nice enough to Hannah, but
just kind of being like, oh, like really like kind of trying
to guide her towards like, that's not what my music's
about. And she still doubled down.

(01:27:24):
And then Paige, her podcast Co host who does these, did the
interview with her was also kindof like egging her, like just
agreeing because they're a duo, you know?
And the whole thing came across so bad.
And now she's like, I don't knowif she's getting cancelled, but
she's definitely. Getting some backlash.
Under fire and I agree with it and it was a really bad look and

(01:27:48):
I would like to be on the VanityFair red carpet doing these
interviews instead with Caroline.
I think you will be. We're going to just put that
into the universe. So, but OK, so you had kind of
heard about it, but now you. Know I didn't know exactly I
didn't know the context I just saw things popping up about like
Megan's music doesn't make people want to fight because it
doesn't we'll also be unlike. Damn is mega Stallion was like

(01:28:10):
famously in like an abusive thing with What's his name with
that rapper? Irrelevant rapper, Yeah, we
don't need to name him. So it's also like she has.
Been She's not the violent one. She has been.
The victim of fighting. Yeah.
So it was just this really big thing that really pissed me off

(01:28:30):
when I saw it. OK, that's it.
That's that. Let's see if I have any other
hot takes here for you. Oh, you don't have Facebook, so
I don't know if you have opinions on this.
Have you heard about the Facebook groups that are like,
are we dating the same guy? Do you have a hot take or an
opinion on it? I mean, I do.
I've talked about it I think, but.

(01:28:52):
My hot take on them is if you feel like you need to be posting
on this group then like you don't want to be dating this
man. I'm snapping, right?
That's it. I mean, that's it.
Yeah. That's exactly it I think.
Period on that, I think. That's we're putting.
I don't think I have to expound.Dotting our I and crossing our T

(01:29:12):
there. Thank you my love for being here
with me. Wow, thanks for having me.
This was so lovely. It was really fun.
I'm excited to listen to it every day When I miss you.
Wow. Which is every day.
I'm gonna listen to I Miss You by Beyoncé.
That's what I listen to when I Miss you.
Please, I miss you. What?

(01:29:33):
Are you gonna get into? Gonna be with you.
There it is. All right, this has been not for
everyone. Thanks for listening to me and
my best friend. Just have fun with each other
for a long time. If you want to find Kai after
this episode, I think the best way is actually just to support

(01:29:54):
her work, her organization. So, Kai, maybe I'll let you talk
about that a little bit. Yes, so I work for a lifespan.
It is a domestic violence and sexual assault social service
agency. It's a nonprofit.
We have a few different practiceareas, three different legal

(01:30:15):
practice areas. So we have immigration law and
then we have family law, which is the department that I work
in. And so we're helping survivors
of domestic violence and sexual assault get orders of
protection, helping them to get divorced from their abusers.
We also have a human traffickingdepartment as well.

(01:30:38):
We also help out with, I'm just going to say custody because
that's what people know it as. We also have counseling services
for our clients and for their children, and Criminal Court
advocacy. Amazing.
And it's based in Chicago. And you can go to the link in
the description of the episode. We'll drop it in there.

(01:31:01):
If you'd like to show lifespan support, you can donate.
It would go straight to the workthat Kai and her team are doing
to support folks who need it. They also have an Instagram
lifespan under score IL for Illinois if you want to follow
them there. They announce like opportunities
for donation events in Chicago. Like they have a gala every year

(01:31:24):
that is a big like donor event that I've been to before.
And it's really fun. You get dressed up and you get
to support A cause, hear some great speakers.
So they do a number of differentthings in the area to that end.
So definitely check them out andsupport them if that's something
you're compelled to do. Thank you.
We appreciate it. Kayate is private on Instagram.

(01:31:46):
Oh. That's.
True, and she's not. Request.
I mean, they can. Request you could try to request
and she might show review and decide whether you're in or not.
But you can find her on my page on pretty much everything I
post. So that's at Jay-Z, Debakey, and
you can follow the podcast on Instagram at Not the Number 4
Everyone pod. We've been dropping some cute

(01:32:09):
little tidbits on there. Caroline's really good at those
reels. Yeah.
Go watch them. Go share them, go like them.
Caroline and I will be back together next week.
And is there anything else do you want to say Anything else to
the people? To the kooks.
Oh my goodness, I'm just happy to be here.
Thanks for allowing me to be in this beautiful space.

(01:32:31):
Thank you for creating it with me.
Wow you're so cool. You are too.
Kisses Yum Yum bumblebee, bumblebee tuna.
I love bumblebee. Bumblebee tuna.

(01:32:55):
Yum Yum bumblebee bumblebee tuna.
Love a sandwich made with Bumblebee?
Oh, I wanted to go down vibe.

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113. Love Letter: How to Forgive and Forget in Friendship + Keeping Dating FUN in Your 30s | ft. My BFF Ekaette Obot

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}113. Love Letter: How to Forgive and Forget in Friendship + Keeping Dating FUN in Your 30s | ft. My BFF Ekaette Obot