114. Not for Therapy Speak + Behind the Scenes of a Hater Engagement (!!!)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You will probably be annoyed at some point by other people and
by being in the world, but that doesn't mean that it's not
exactly what you need anyway andit's not worth going and
getting. It's just part of the price.

(00:23):
Welcome back. We're not for everyone.
This is a podcast hosted by a hater.
That's me Caroline. I'll reintroduce myself
sometimes and one lover I know. I don't know if somebody new is
here or something. This is such a weak intro, but
also just. A lover.
It's because I interrupted, but I just like to be interactive.
And I missed you. I'm Jess, by the way.

(00:46):
I missed you too. God yo we're out of practice.
We each did our friend recordings and first of all,
recording that episode just mademe realize how much easier it is
to banter and to talk back and forth in a normal way without a
zoom delay. God.
Wow. Yeah, I know.
It actually was so true because Kai and I were sitting on the
bed together. Like we couldn't have been

(01:06):
closer while we were recording our episode, and it was very
much like we could jump in on each other even easier.
I think you and I do a pretty good job of interrupting each
other, but it could be better. Without the zoom delay, we could
be on top of each other even more.
With our words, we could be. Interrupting each other.
More, Yeah. And I think I that would be
ideal. That's how real conversations

(01:28):
go, you know, with friends, it'slike, I already know what you're
going to say or I want to get to.
I want to make you laugh first or like, that's.
That was the vibe, yeah. I think I have a bad habit of
thinking I know how someone's gonna end their sentence.
And I try to help them out for some reason to like communicate
that we're on the same page and they're like, no.
I hate when that happens, but don't you think you have AI?

(01:49):
Feel like I have a pretty good percentage of getting it right
like 80% of the time so I take the risk.
Yeah, pretty good, pretty good hit rate.
I feel like I'm going to say this.
I think I get it right more thanmost people do.
This is based on no data to backup this.
I think as a scientist, I think yes.

(02:11):
I think I know what people are going to say more often than the
average person does. That's just an award I'm giving
to myself. Yeah, and I'm not going to prove
it. And I just think I'm right about
that. But I also interrupt more than
most people do. So I also get it wrong more than
most people. Do.
Oh, like I got it. The frequency, the denominator
is larger of the number of filmsthat you're jumping in.

(02:32):
Yeah. Yeah, I think if everyone
interrupted as much as I interrupt, I would have a better
percentage. But most people know how to keep
their mouth shut. That's why I'm happy that we're
here together, because I know people don't believe it.
I feel about me because I'm the lover, like just cause of
branding or something. I hope people are getting to
know. The branding you did branding.

(02:53):
You made you made it. We made it.
It was we. Everything's we all I'm saying
listen to. That I know I'm really a lover
and you're really a hater. That's the.
Thing I know you know that and Idon't think everyone's I think
it's just taking me time to makesure that it's safe here to be
that way, but I you're just. Leaving hanging me out to drive.

(03:16):
It's a witch hunt. You know what, I I genuinely
listening to your episode with Kai.
Amazing episode. Loved hearing from Kai, who's
just like this been like, I feltlike she's like the Wizard of
Oz. It's just like this overlord,
like like evasive figure that I keep hearing whispers about, but
like I've never heard from. Yeah.
And then we finally got to hear the voice of Kai.

(03:38):
And then it was also different hearing you with your best
friend. And it was also, I was shocked
because I know you'd said Kai isa hater.
And somehow I found that hard tobelieve because you're just like
such a little bubble pie. And I was like, I'm sure they're
all just bubble pies. And then I was like, oh shit,
Kai is one of us. She's a hater.
She's a hater and I don't even think she like fully displayed

(04:00):
it because she's never been on apodcast before.
And like this isn't a normal environment for her.
So I'm glad that it came throughbecause if it was if you were
just hanging out with us in reallife, you would see it even
faster and even fuller. Like there have been moments
actually a perfect lover hater story that I should have told
with her, but she gets a little sensitive about it.
So it's better for me to tell itwith you.

(04:22):
She'll laugh. She's fine.
Is we were watching in college. She came over to watch PSI love
you that movie that like romancemovie about the IT.
Was a horrible movie. Guy who dies or whatever.
OK, so back then it was my cry movie and I everybody was.
So wet for that movie. Yes, everyone was so wet for it.

(04:43):
It is really. Bad.
There's like Scottish accents and naked butts of men.
Yeah, and like a dead wife or a dead husband, yes, we, I feel
like children are really wet, like young pubescent children
are really wet for a widow, 100.Percent.
Was we all wanted our dads to bedead or?
'Cause we didn't think that there was any other way that
love could end. When we were young, we were

(05:05):
like, oh, it's just dead. And then you still stay in love
with them and somehow sexually engaged with them when they're
dead. Yeah.
So I loved that movie. I was like, this is my cry
movie. Kai had told me, I think, that
she needed a cry. So I was like, come over, we'll
watch my cry movie. It's going to be great.
We were sophomores in college and she proceeded to roast this

(05:26):
entire film for me. We were watching it together.
I had prefaced, I love this movie.
It makes me cry. It's so emotional, I've never
watched it again. She completely ruined it for me
every moment she. Felt how I felt that is she.
Horrible. It's a horrible movie.
She felt it was a horrible movie, which it is.
I can now say at 33 years old that it is, but at the time it

(05:46):
did something for me and she totally crushed it.
And just like every moment that there was bad acting or a stupid
line or like a weird bit where Imaybe it would pull at my
heartstrings, she was just like,this is fucking ridiculous.
This is cheesy. This is poorly done.
Like she ruined it for me and she she was like, oh, I thought

(06:06):
it was coming over to watch a comedy.
I feel like that I really relateto that phase of hater dumb, the
hater life cycle. Yeah, sophomore year of college,
hater me would have shit on the things openly that people loved.
Now I'll do it. But if I like sense that they

(06:27):
chose this movie and they like it, I'll just like, oh, I'm just
like, oh, OK, I'm going to be quiet for this movie.
I guess. This is horrible.
But yeah, I think. I think that's why she's
sensitive about it, because she's we've now gotten to a
point where we are awakened to the fact that like, oh, your
friends will like different things than you or whatever.
So at this point I think she's like, oh, you really liked that

(06:49):
movie and I fucked it up for you.
I'm sorry. I should have just let you have
it. But yeah, at that, at that point
in her hater development, she wasn't able to restrict yet.
So yeah, I'm glad that you saw that in her.
She is. She keeps me sharp and young, as
you do. Yeah, it felt really validating
to me. I was like, Jess loves deeply

(07:11):
loves someone else who's a hater, so.
My sister is a hater I'm surrounded by, you know that
'cause you. I knew her when she was younger
and I feel like it was always evident.
But she's only grown in her hater dumb.
And yeah, I surround myself withhaters.
I 'cause if I didn't, I would say Ryan's a hater.
Like if I didn't surround myselfwith.

(07:32):
Haters. I would just be, I would have
died by now. Like I would just be lali lali
la talking to everyone. I don't think it would have made
it loving something would have happened.
I need protection. Yeah, like if the apocalypse
hits and I think about this all the time, like, who would I
align with? I think, I think we'd have to
kill you straight away. Like I would be like please

(07:53):
align with me. Please align with me.
And I would be like, yeah, Jess,we're gonna align with, we're
gonna align with you. And I'd walk you into a field
and I'd be like, look out at thehorizon.
I'd shoot you in the head. And I'd just be like, listen, we
had to get that out of the way. She was gonna she was gonna be
the end of all of us. She was not met.
She had a great life. She's not gonna make it through
the apocalypse, obviously. We don't want her to go through

(08:14):
that pain. She's too pure.
Just. Like, take her out now.
No. And I don't want to watch it
either. It's gonna be crazy.
It's gonna be ridiculous. No, I would shoot you in the
head so lovingly, and then I would kiss you on the forehead,
just like in our branding photo for our podcast.
That's. The way I'd want to go, yeah.
Is Abby a hater or a lover? I think Abby strikes me as more

(08:35):
of a lover, but she. Kind of straddles the fence,
yeah. Which is, I mean, we've said
that I straddle the fence, right?
I think Abby and I might be similar.
There's like a exterior loverness, but then deep down
there's a haterness, right, Because she can be very, she can
be critical and cutting of things, but like she comes
across very like gentler, you know?

(09:00):
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.
Yeah, I get. Yeah.
So me and Abby, so we will. I would align with Abby in a
apocalypse any day. She escaped Mormonism.
Editor Abby here. We all know the hater lover
dichotomy is more of a horseshoe, but I'll give you 2
examples of my personality to clear things up.

(09:22):
Number one, I was once a part ofa Dungeons and Dogos group.
Yes, we were playing as dogs. I was a blue heeler named Flint.
Every time our group of doggos approached enemies or fought off
a monster, my idea was always totry and become friends with it,
much to the chagrin of our dungeon master.

(09:43):
And two, I am known for my qualms with movies and shows and
books that are beloved by basically everyone.
For instance, Jess is going to kill me.
But I have a lot of issues with Season 2 of Severance and I know
those issues kill the vibe of every party I go to, so I'll let
the kooks decide. Label me bitches.

(10:03):
I think I'd leave both you guys.Yeah, I'd.
I'd leave both you guys for sure.
I'd let let Abby live. I'd shoot you in the head.
I'm. I would join up.
I've discussed this with my family, too.
Like I would fucking follow Luke.
My brother is going to be the only survivor of the apocalypse.
I believe that. And he will reign supreme.

(10:23):
And he will also reign magnanimously.
Like he will not wield his powercruelly.
I think he will build a new society for us.
I would follow. Yeah.
I think got to live. Yeah.
Julia, my little sister, we've talked about this.
She knows I feel this way. She agrees.
She has diabetes. She's not going to make it.
We're she. We're probably going to shoot

(10:44):
her in the field with you. She always talks about this, how
like, there's no good adventure like thriller films, with one
exception actually, where somebody has like, chronic
illness usually, and she's like,like, how am I going to take my
diabetes shots throughout the day as we're fighting zombies?
So Julia gets a shot in the head.
My dad, I think, would just instantly give up and kill

(11:06):
himself. Like even before things are that
intense, even when it's just like, like there's not really
any need for like, action. He's just like, I'm good.
I used to. Be like I'm out.
I want him playing the violin orthe cello or something while I
die by your shot, and then he can do whatever he needs to do.

(11:27):
But I want him to, like, Take MeOut with his music first, yeah.
Yeah, I think my mom can join. My mom's honestly a survivor for
sure. She can join me and Luke.
Elizabeth would survive, but shewould probably, like, join the
song piece. I think she would immediately
betray us to join. Yeah.
And we'd be like, God damn it. We used to do these questions in

(11:50):
my family. We literally call it questions.
There's a game that we play called that's.
Good branding. Yeah, that's good.
It was during COVID, maybe I've talked about this before.
It was during COVID when we werejust like cooped up together and
that needed conversation topics because at some point you're
like, OK, I'm tired of seeing your dumb face.
I know everything about you. Like we need other things to

(12:11):
talk about. And so we would just be sitting
around the kitchen table and just somebody would go, OK, oh,
no, we call it Q&A. That's what it is.
So somebody will just go Q&A. We we call this game talking to
each other. Yeah, that's pretty much what it
is, though. Somebody usually my dad, and
it's very cute. He'll just be like, OK, Q&A like
he you could tell he's been sitting there being like, how do

(12:33):
I connect with these dumb fucks?And the question would usually
be like something like who wouldyou follow into the apocalypse?
Who would be the first person toget killed?
Or like some existential big like what if or would you rather
or whatever type of question. And usually the way that those

(12:53):
go down is like a fight. The rest of my family just
agreeing that they are dominant and being like Jessica would go
first but like she'd be safer that way.
Like they try to make me feel better about it or like.
Even your mom and your dad. Yeah, Oh my, my parents grew up

(13:15):
in war in Lebanon and lost lovedones to to war so they are
survivors. No, I know they're survivors,
but they're not like just will carry you.
They're like just your kind of parents.
No, I think even my dad, who's like my biggest, my number one
protector in the world is just like, I don't want you to go
through that, sweetie. Yeah, you're soft.
So we'll just provide the bullet?

(13:36):
Yeah, he wouldn't pull the trigger, but he would give me
the gun. Exactly.
And then the three of them will get to fight over who goes next,
basically, because they're all very intense people.
Yeah. Q&A.
There's a game that my family likes.
It's actually pretty fun. It definitely causes fights, but
it's fun for a few minutes. Called who in the room and we

(13:58):
call it whom in the room for fun, but it is pretty fun.
And it's just like, it's basically just like a chatty
question game where there's there's not like a board game,
but there'll be questions like like who in the room is like
most likely to run for politicaloffice.
Who in the room is the biggest crybaby?

(14:18):
Who in the room? They're more fun than that, Some
of them, but and then just like on the count of three, everybody
points. To someone in their room, that's
really fun. And and it's so fun when there's
just like a unanimous vote for somebody or people are like,
what? Me La La la.
Yeah, it's. Fun.
We should play that. I like that because you don't
get to be colored by somebody else's answer first, like you

(14:40):
all point at the same time. And then you can like, defend or
explain your answer if you're like, oh, well, I'm thinking
about this, this, this. Yeah.
It's like a like you can buy a set of cards for this.
Who in the room? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's called Who in the room.
I actually am going to pick thatup.
It's. Pretty fun.
I'm always looking for games like that.
Anywho, I like your sweater. Thanks you dirty little bitch.
Let me tell you about this sweater.

(15:01):
OK you guys, you really should check us out on YouTube so you
can see my adorable sweater I'm wearing.
So a couple episodes back, I putmy hater mask on and announced
all at once that things people knit by hand are usually I don't
want them. And I also announced that I was

(15:22):
going to take up knitting myself'cause I think it does sound
really fun to do. And somebody, one of our
listeners, reached out to us andwas like, love you guys.
I would love to try and change your mind about hand knitted
items. She's so cute, I'm going to find
what her she. Was so sweet.
Do you have the message still anyway, she just can look for
the message. But she reached out to us.

(15:43):
She was so sweet and she was like just Caroline, Please look
at my knitting Instagram accountand please choose an item of
your an item of your choosing and I will make you.
And she made me a custom sweater.
I picked out this design. I picked out custom sleeves and
a custom collar. Just picked out a a knitted hot

(16:03):
water bottle cover that says I'mbaby.
It's the best thing I've ever. Seen made these by hand, it's
really cute. Yeah, so her name is Caroline
and her Instagram is Caroline's Knit Shop.
All one word and shop is spelledwith a double PE.
So if you want to go look at herdesigns, I would highly
recommend. She reached out to us and said

(16:23):
in response to your latest episode, just wanted to share
that I'm a member of the knitting community and have a
Commission business. I wanted to represent the
knitters and crocheters by sharing my designs on my feed
with you Queens and say that I'dbe happy to hand knit you a
custom sweater or anything you might want for and change your
mind about handmade gifts. So anyway, we had this long
conversation. It was so funny because I just

(16:44):
went to her Instagram and saw one of the first things I saw
was a hot water bottle cover andI was like, that's an adorable
idea. I'm baby is one of my catch
phrases. We have apparel on our merch
site that's like I'm baby hat inthis pink color.
So I was like, can you just recreate our I'm baby branding
on this hot water bottle cover for me?

(17:05):
That'll be perfect. And then I told Caroline about
it, and I was like, what do you want her to make?
Caroline proceeds to send, like,paragraphs with attachments and
visuals and color schemes and like.
And then she's just like, oh, I hope this is OK.
Like, I hope it's OK that I havea very specific vision.
Anyway, of course it was OK. And Caroline the knitter took on

(17:28):
the challenge with a lot of grace.
But I was like, oh, OK, yeah, you could do it that way.
Sure, you could. You could do it that way, too.
Yeah. I wanted I was she offered to
make us a custom. She did.
I was like well I wanted to be 1.
I like change my mind. And I think it worked.
But yeah, it did work. It's a great sweater.

(17:48):
It is extremely comfy. I'm wearing it.
I'm going on a cabin weekend retreat with my bitches,
including Prince Abby. This weekend.
I'm bringing my cabin weekend sweater custom made by love from
a fellow Caroline. I'm going to guess she's a
lover, but she knitted for a hand.
I'm. Gonna guess that too.
She was way too accommodating and kind and sweet in these
messages more than even I would it.

(18:09):
Was a cut she she offered a. Custom.
No, I'm not even talking about that.
Didn't do anything. I'm not even talking about that,
We went on. We like had a long conversation
and I actually started knitting already.
I started knitting wow, like a couple weeks ago and so I
messaged her about it. I did it.
I have, hold on, can I, can I actually get my stuff real

(18:30):
quick? Anyway, while Jess gets her
stuff, I just wanted to say she was so sweet we wanted to shout
out her Instagram knitting shop.So go check out her shop.
We're going to link it in the description of this video.
Yes, and support one of our fellow kooks who did change our
mind. 100% she's bringing back. She said that she had like, been
dormant about her business, and she decided to bring it back

(18:52):
after this inspiring project. So your custom creation was very
well worth it. Yeah.
So I started knitting and I have.
If you're watching on YouTube, you see this giant basket of.
That is huge. Of is what is it wool yarn Yarn.
Kern. Is it called Kern something?
I've. Isn't like a ball of yarn called

(19:12):
like a Kern? Maybe.
I don't know anything about it. I've only gotten this far, which
is I would say an inch of scarf and I have.
A skein. A skein.
I have 7 balls of yarn. I was planning to knit a
blanket. Turns out that's really hard to
do. I messaged Caroline, our
knitting kook, and asked her forhelp.

(19:34):
She gave me encouraging words and I tried again.
And then I stopped. So I was doing this for, I would
say 5 days, pretty, pretty in a pretty focused way.
And then, yeah, I haven't done it in weeks and this is what
happens. To me when I pick up.
Craft hobbies and I just needed to share since we were on the

(19:54):
topic and I have all this yarn, I have all this Are you gonna.
Go back to it or are you done? Are you?
I think I'm done. Oh my.
God, you went so hard, so unnecessarily.
This is what I do. This is what I do.
I called my mom when I was at Michael's buying yarn, and I was
like, guess what? I'm gonna knit.
Like I'm I'm gonna knit, be proud, be impressed.

(20:16):
Like I'm gonna make a whole blanket.
And my mom was like, oh, that's great, sweetie.
Like maybe just buy even half the amount of yarn that you
think you need for a blanket just to make sure you stick to
it. And then you could always go
back and buy the rest of it. And I was like, no, I'm buying
all of it. And I bought literally all of
this one yarn that they had at my.

(20:36):
And my mom was right. I she knew that I wouldn't stick
to anything. So that's my hobby for the
month, for last month. What about?
It turned you off. Why did it not stick?
I honestly think it's just because the weather's gotten
better and I can go outside now and I don't need.
Right. Foolish folly anymore.
I just need to walk around in the sun.

(20:59):
I picked it up during like a very cold week in February when
all I was doing was really working and then watching TV and
I felt like I was on my phone. I was watching TV and then on my
phone while watching whatever show, like double screening it
up, and I hated that. But I realized that I needed

(21:19):
something to do with my hands. So I thought knitting would be a
good thing while I watch TV. So it's just one screen instead
of 2. So that was the whole like idea
behind it. And then I started and it got
frustrating. And then the weather got better
and I was like, well, I'm not going to even watch TV as much
anymore. I'm just going to go outside.
So here we are. That's true.
I would I would like to see likea chart plotting knitting

(21:44):
frequencies as compared to weather.
Yeah, I think that's right. The people who are knitting in
the summer are the real. They like it, they like it, they
really like it. They'll even find a way to knit
like a tube top that they can wear in the summer like they're
they're making their stuff year round.
That stuff's crazy. Yeah, I see these crocheted,

(22:06):
Yeah, tube tops and tank tops. I'm like, I don't know about
that one. I don't know about it either.
I don't. Know now somebody else is going
to whoosh now tank tops. Send me one.
I should just start shitting on everything I want to own and see
who will send it to me. It's not a bad approach.
You took that approach in a slightly different way in a

(22:27):
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(24:17):
You opened it with like, do like, do not subscribe if you're
not one of these people, these types of people.
Like I've curated an audience ofthese types of people.
I watched that and was like fascinated by the marketing
strategy behind it. Or I had my hypotheses maybe of
like why you were doing that or what you were going for.

(24:38):
But I've been meaning to ask youabout it.
Maybe you can give more background than I did.
I'm sure a lot of people have seen it, but.
Yeah, this is a video. It was like it went viral
recently. It was one of the biggest videos
I've had in a long time and where it was like interior
design for the anonymous men of Reddit.
And the intro to the video is basically me saying like, hey,

(24:58):
men of Reddit, I made you this video.
Please do not subscribe to my channel.
You're going to fuck up my analytics and my audience
demographics. And then a week or so
afterwards, I got a message, I got an e-mail from a woman who
was like, hey, we've been talking about your video and
specifically the intro on LinkedIn in this community of

(25:19):
like. Oh.
Social media strategist or something, something.
And she sent me the post and shewas like, so it caught my
attention and I wanted to ask you if I, I don't know, she was
like offering some service or something.
And I clicked on the LinkedIn post though, and it was these
people, I don't know, like social media strategists or
managers or something debating this video and like why I did

(25:40):
that. And everyone had their, it was
funny to read because everybody had their guesses and none of
them were right. But I want to hear.
I want to hear yours. I mean, I don't think it's that
deep, but what you did is you said, you said if you're like
men have read it, please enjoy this video.
I made it for you, but do not subscribe.

(26:01):
My subscribers are very curated.My analytics are good.
These are the three groups of people then you listed out, like
the three groups of people who are your typical audience,
right? And so I think, I don't know, I
think the part that struck me was not so much telling the men
of Reddit not to subscribe and it was more publicly naming what

(26:24):
your core audience is. And that made me feel like maybe
the strategy there is for any ofthose people who are watching
but are not currently subscribedto see like there's this
community, like I'm one of thosepeople.
Why am I not? Yes.
So I I emphasize more that part of it than the like don't

(26:44):
subscribe men of Reddit part. Yeah, yeah, I've that, that is a
part of it. Yeah.
I thought it was kind of fun. I will talk about this just
'cause I think it was like fun. I don't know the, the evolution
of how that started and then people liked it so much.
I think it's part of what made the video go viral.
But the, it, it started, everyone was guessing on this

(27:07):
LinkedIn thread. They were like, oh, it's just
reverse psychology. She's trying to get people to
subscribe. It was not reverse psychology.
I genuinely almost, I genuinely almost didn't make the video
because my audience on YouTube is like 80% female and I'm
having a, a fairly homogeneous audience.
Like a targeted audience is how you get the best deals for brand

(27:33):
sponsorships. You know, like if you have an A
YouTube channel that's all abouttechnology or specifically
photography you can get and that's your whole audience
basically is like these dudes, 20 to 30 disposable income in
America who all of photography, you're going to get really great
deals, like rates of payment foryour sponsorships because a

(27:55):
photography brand. And it's like, oh, that's really
targeted marketing. And mine is not that specific.
But you know, by comparison, if you have a YouTube channel where
it's like, oh, there's a bunch of women, there's a bunch of
men, they live all over the world.
They're all different, you know,ages, it's hard to do.
You can't do targeted marketing.So you might have more viewers,

(28:18):
but you'll probably get paid less anyway.
One of the things that's helped me a lot is that I have a large
female audience. So like you can do targeted ads,
blah, blah, blah. And I recently had all these
meetings with my manager. Like it was the end of year, end
of 2024 meetings. And we were talking about my
analytics and she was like, that's really good.
You want to keep this 80% femaleblah, blah, blah.

(28:40):
And then I had this idea to do this video.
It actually came from Justin andhis brother gave me this idea to
do this video because we're always talking about this Reddit
thread. And I was like, oh, I'm excited
to do it, but I genuinely do notwant all these men to subscribe.
It would it would actually like could if too many subscribed, it
could actually make me lose money down the road.

(29:01):
And and so I was like, I almost made the video.
I was like, OK, I could make thesame sort of video, but just do
it for a different Reddit designsubreddit, like maybe one that's
men and it's not specifically men.
I almost literally changed the whole video for that.
And then in the end I was like, whatever, I'll just do it and

(29:21):
I'll just do a call out. And since I'm going to do that
call out, I can make it a funny bit.
I can make it an eye-catching bit.
Something like in my intros, I try to do something that
basically just stops the mindless scrolling, like
something that stands out and catches your attention.
And then in addition, I was like, what I can do is call out.
Yeah, all the different audiences who do watch this

(29:42):
video so they can feel seen, seethemselves in it.
And then in the comments of the video, if you look, almost every
single comment is people self identifying, 'cause I was like,
oh, there's like anxious girls in their 20s, they're sassy
grandmas. And then everybody was like, oh,
I'm a sassy grandma. So like, people like to see
themselves in it. But yeah.
But the one thing that it was not was, was reverse psychology.

(30:05):
Like it started with a genuine fear.
Please do not subscribe to my video.
You're gonna fuck up my audiencedemographics.
That makes a lot of sense that Ithink that is like what I
assumed it was without knowing all the background.
But the cool thing about a videolike that, which is quote UN
quote targeted towards men, it'sabout men's interior design

(30:27):
decisions. Women love that.
Like as a woman who knows with aman and dates men and knows men
and whatever and cares about my home, I like watching you roast
men or give them tips. Those tips could apply to me
too, even if my my home isn't asbad as some of those pictures.

(30:48):
But there's little elements of it that are just design tips.
So I don't know. I really, I like that you did it
anyway because I think it does appeal to your core audience.
But yeah, you just didn't want the like the actual subscriber
demographics to get fucked up. I was scared of them too as to
like, I kind of thought of the video as being a lot funnier
before I filmed it. I was like, oh, this, it's gonna

(31:08):
be really funny. I'd done another like bachelor
video that I thought was much more roasty and funny, but then
as soon as I started recording and I like looked at the camera
and was directly addressing a man from Reddit who is not my
usual fan, has never heard of me, doesn't give a fuck who I
am. I instantly I got so serious and
like respectful because I was scared shitless of them.

(31:30):
You're. Like they don't know me.
Yeah, I was like, I can't. Roast these.
People, I can't roast these. We've got the same video.
Where you did you did like a rapid fire. 3 words about each.
That was a different one. That was a.
That was a different. Video I did rapid OK, I like
that one too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very
nice. Thank you.

(31:50):
Yeah, I've been enjoying like the different ways that you're
approaching the same content category.
You know what I mean? Like interior design is one
thing, but you're finding new ways to talk about it and
present it and stuff, which I'm sure is something that you're
intentionally thinking through and trying different things
with. I don't have anything to

(32:11):
decorate in my apartment anymorelike it's done, and I'm not
going to needlessly redecorate, so I don't have anything to show
really anymore. I I do feel like I'm craving a a
new canvas, but yeah, whatever. Yeah, that's a good transition
to something big that happened since we last talked.
Oh no. Oh no, Caroline's engaged till

(32:35):
cutie Justin. We got engaged and we're going
to kiss till we're dead. They're going to kiss until
they're dead. That's how it works.
Until you die. Like PSI love you, you have to.
Yeah. Then even when he's dead and I'm
just a a beautiful, gorgeous, tragic widow, then I'm still
going to be in love with him andhe'll visit me in my dreams.

(32:56):
Didn't he like, visit her in herdreams and like, like.
Yeah, he wrote her all these letters that she like, she had
to go on basically like a scavenger hunt and.
Fucking fucking with your dead wife.
Let her move on. But then he but then he like set
her up to have sex with his bestfriend or something.
It was. Really strange and this was the
most romantic. This was the most romantic movie

(33:17):
of our in high school. It really was.
Fuck my best friend, I'm doing. How much do you want to talk
about the engagement? Can I ask you like a question
and a half about it? Totally.
Yeah, I'm going to save some of the drama for videos.
But yeah, you can ask. Yeah, you can ask me a question.
OK. Can you tell us the story of

(33:40):
what was going on with your hands before the engagement?
OK, So for context. Did I text you about?
This you texted me about it, Caroline texted me.
And it's like, hey, I'm going tobe like kind of out of reach
this weekend 'cause we're going to Montreal And like, I don't
know, but I think Justin might propose.

(34:01):
But I don't want to be presumptuous.
But there's just like signs thatit might be coming.
There were. Signs.
There were signs. Yes.
And you told me the signs and I was like, yes, those things make
a lot of sense. But then the main sign was that
you were like, also last night, I like, completely cut up my
hands. So nothing is a bigger sign than
that. Then I'm gonna have to like,

(34:22):
take a picture of my hands this weekend.
And you didn't ever explain to me how you cut up your hands.
You sent did. I send you the photo.
Yes. And then you were like, anyway,
bye. I've been wondering for weeks
and I, I followed up about it and you still didn't.
Yeah, I know you've been in yourengagement haze and like,

(34:42):
whatever. I just feel like I've been
stressed. I must have missed your text
asking about it. I didn't know.
I didn't explain it to you. Yeah.
So I had. There were a couple of clues.
There was like a window where I knew he was most likely going to
propose this. What?

(35:03):
Yeah, I guess that was people's biggest question about like, did
you know? But like we've, he asked me to
pick out a ring like over a yearago.
We've talked about it very openly.
We actually like kind, we designed the ring together.
We've talked about marriage. Very.
It's not really that coy. Like, and I was, I was telling
him, I realized it kind of felt it would have felt weird to be
super coy about it 'cause it's like he and I are super

(35:25):
commutative and open and then except then like this one thing,
it felt like it would feel like,oh, I'm not allowed in on the
meetings about like the rest of my fucking future.
Like it would be weird to me. But, but I, but he was still
trying to preserve like the surprise of the proposal.
I'm, but I also knew there was like kind of a deadline.

(35:46):
He kind of wanted to be engaged by the spring.
So there was a loose deadline and I'm and then at the new
year, we were both so tired of traveling.
You know, I don't really like traveling.
And there was, we both had a lotof travel over Christmas and at
the new year I was like, Justin,my only resolution for this year
is like, I'm not traveling anymore.

(36:07):
And he was like, yeah, same. Like we're not traveling.
And then like 2 weeks later he was like, want to go on a trip
to Montreal? There's like no reason there's
no one to visit. And I was like, sure, Oh yes, I
mean, I'll do anything. We've been talking.
About it. And there was this really cool

(36:28):
ice skating, like forest where you ice skate on path through
the woods that we'd saw like somewhere on Instagram or
something before. And I was like, oh, that's in
Montreal, Justin, we should go and do that.
And you just like, sent me like a little emoji, like suspicious
face. It was just like, yeah, yeah,
that wasn't already on the agenda.
Like, I was like, oh, that part was supposed to be a surprise, I

(36:49):
guess. And so I was like, OK,
something's happening on this trip, I think.
Then at Valentine's Day, I thinkhe was just getting tired.
On Valentine's Day, he was like,I'll give you your gift in
Montreal. And I was like, OK, if he gives
me a fucking card in Montreal atthis point, like I'm going to be
annoyed like. I didn't feel like writing the
card for today, so I'll write itfor next week.

(37:09):
Like if he gives me a fucking book in Montreal, I'm going to
be annoyed. So I was pretty sure, but also
I'm full of doubt about everything.
And I didn't, I didn't he just, he's sitting here.
He just pointed at me. I think he was banking on my my
capacity for self doubt. Yeah, totally.
Which is fair. He knows his audience.
He knows how to work the the system here.

(37:31):
Yeah. Yeah, he did say at one point,
this did effectively throw me off because I knew he kind of
wanted to be engaged by the spring, which is like 2 years of
us being together. And he'd said that at some
point. But then at another point after
the fact, he was like, yeah, well, the spring or I don't
know, maybe after. And I was like, what the, what
the fuck is that? And I was like, why is he

(37:51):
waffling all of a sudden? And that was, he says to, to
throw, to throw me off. But I also pretty much knew I, I
only mostly was bracing for the possibility that I was wrong
because I didn't want to go on this trip and be disappointed.
So I was like, well, even if he doesn't propose, I don't want to
be like a like, that's not a reason for me to ruin the trip.

(38:11):
So I wanted to be emotionally prepared.
If you guys had obviously been talking about it, like talking
about rings, talking about timing, whatever.
So if it didn't happen, then I think you could still rest
assured that it was going to happen.
So it's like this weekend or a different weekend, whatever, but
you still haven't explained the hands.
So all that to say, I had a vague window where I was like,

(38:33):
OK, could be a proposal. And I bite my nails and like,
like the skin around my nails. It's really gross.
I do too. I didn't really.
Badly. I do it really bad and.
That's the reason I picked up knitting, because it was either
scrolling on my phone or pickingmy cuticles.
I needed something else to do with my hands.
Yeah, okay, that's what it. Was so I have been probably for

(38:55):
the last two months. I was like, you know, and Justin
always notices when they're likebitten up and he's always trying
to like, help me, you know, gently be like, oh, you're
biting your nails like La La, la, la, because I don't like the
habit, but it's like I do it mindlessly.
So I was like, he'll notice. Like please just let me have
like nice, nice fingers and nails for fucking one weekend.

(39:16):
Please. Like I'm not a manicure girl.
I'm not going to go and get a manicure for a proposal when I
never otherwise would have a manicure.
Like that's not me. I just wanna not be bleeding all
over my fingernails and so. It was the most so I.
It was gory, the. Picture you sent, maybe we could

(39:38):
put it up on YouTube right now we're having a few different
visuals. I think Abby has a picture.
It was definitely your cuticles were bleeding, which I'm very
familiar with as a cuticle nibbler myself, but it was an
unbelievable amount of blood pouring out of multiple
cuticles. Like I can show my finger

(39:58):
pouring now. Yeah.
And you can see that there's like, yeah.
That's my usual. That's my usual, but I really
upped the ante with this you. Really upped the ante before the
proposal. So what happened was for the
last two months, I was like really working on not biting my
nails. I was doing a really good job of
it. And unrelated to that, I watched
some video on YouTube that was like how I travel around the

(40:19):
world in just a carry on. And she went, this girl went and
like, bought like, you know, travel like compressor, travel
cubes, whatever the fuck they'recalled.
Yeah, packing. And packing cubes and like
miniature versions of everything, like a miniature
hair brush and a miniature straightener.
And I got like all excited aboutbuying these mini things.

(40:41):
Obviously it's fun. And I spent maybe two hours
looking for the ideal miniature nail kit because having the nail
kit does help me not pick at my nails.
Like if they're well manicured and there's not like hang nails,
then I'm less likely to pick at them.
And also miniature. And so I got this miniature nail
kit and then I was really excited to start using it and I

(41:02):
there was like this cuticle slicer.
Yeah. Is it the one that's like 2 like
a clip? It doesn't look like a pinchy
scissor clip. It's just a straight tool that
has like a fucking razor blade on the end of it.
And I've never seen it before. And it's just for removing your
cuticles and you slice them almost like you're peeling a
carrot, Like it comes off like that.

(41:24):
Oh my God. And I did it on my nails and I
pressed way too hard. It actually works amazingly, but
I pressed way too hard. It didn't hurt when I pressed
it, but it completely removed all the flesh on my fingers and
this was 36 hours before the proposal.
This makes so much more sense. And there was blood everywhere.

(41:46):
I got blood all over my couch. It was all over the floor.
It was all over the sink. Like it was everywhere.
I had to like stain wash my couch.
There was like, I ended up taking a vlog video.
I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this video,
but I'm I can't stop laughing. Like I don't know how I got in
this position and I'm just like wiping blood up off the floor.
My fingers wouldn't stop bleeding.
And then Justin was coming over.It was a crime scene.

(42:08):
Justin was coming over then and and I really didn't want him to
see how much I had failed and but I couldn't stop bleeding.
I couldn't stop the bleeding. So I wrapped all my fingers in
band aids, like multiple band aids and then I just hid my hand
from him that. Entire night.
But I'm OK that thank you. I've been waiting for this
story, waiting for clarity, waiting for answers.

(42:32):
And that makes a lot more sense because the picture was very
much bloody. Cuticles, yes, but because like,
how would it explain any bleed? From there otherwise.
And because it was so much bloodfrom the cuticles, yeah, I was
like, was she doing some sort of, like, DIY project and hurt
herself? But like, how would the blood
only be coming out from there? Yeah, it was.

(42:52):
It's been on my mind. It's been on.
My mind. I couldn't.
I flipped through your post of your engagement photos and I'm
just like where are those? Show me those hands show.
Me, yeah, they were pretty healed.
They actually did heal. What was good is that the scabs
were just along the cuticle. So it was just like a contour
really. It was kind of a, it kind of
ended up OK. OK, that was my main question

(43:15):
about the engagement. I know you want to talk about
it. You want to do a whole video on
YouTube and stuff, so I won't take away from that.
I just really needed to know that you had up.
I mean, you had texted me so I know enough background too.
And I love your ring. And I, I guess that was my other
question was because it's a non traditional ring.

(43:36):
Like was it something that you knew you wanted?
Sounds like you did and you guysworked together on it.
So that makes a lot of sense 'cause it's bold.
It would have been bold for Justin to buy.
That's true. Colored rain without.
Knowing yeah yeah, we. Kind of.
I genuinely had never thought about what kind of ring.
I think it's in line with the things like I also hadn't really

(43:58):
thought about what kind of wedding decor.
I know people are like excited to hear my pins on that.
I don't really fantasize about those things until they're in my
reality. And so when I started looking,
Justin was like, listen, this was like over a year ago.
He was like, I need you to pick out a ring that you like.
Like tell me some preferences you have like 3 months.
I was like, and, and I started looking online and first of all,

(44:23):
everything is like the same right now.
Everyone's kind of getting the same ring and the, and I, it's a
very pretty ring. But the one thing I like is like
having something distinctive that doesn't, that feels
personal. Like, it doesn't feel personal
to me if it's the same trendy solitaire that everybody has.
And if the trend will change in a couple of years and then all

(44:47):
of a sudden it's, it looks outdated or something, it's
better to just get something youknow you like that's unique and
it, it'll be special no matter what.
I and I also genuinely think it's really pretty.
I think this the very trendy gold band solitaire, I think
it's really pretty. Like when I saw it, I was like,
oh, I do like that. And then I realized it's what
everyone was doing. And so it's harder for me to

(45:08):
convince myself that it's reallymy personal preference if, if
it's what everyone in this exactyear also likes, it's like, ah,
then my preference might really change.
So I was like, oh, I do want to have something more unique.
And I love color so much. And then Justin I end up talking
about together and he was like, well, does it have to be a
diamond? Cause blah, blah, blah.

(45:29):
And I was thinking about like rubies or blah, blah, blah.
But that's kind of intense. And then what we ended up
finding is a sapphire. This is actually a sapphire
that's like a really strange kind of sapphire called like
papar dasha. I'll show it to the video.
Yeah, it's such a beautiful color.
They come in like, they're usually like orange or purple,

(45:51):
but this one's kind of rusty or not rust.
Like what's the word mauve maybe?
Mauve. Yeah, but like a warmer a little
bit. Yeah, warmer mauve.
Warmer moth and then I'm little diamonds around it anyway.
I I fucking love it so much. I feel I don't feel like I
deserve this pretty of a ring. What?

(46:12):
The hell. I really don't.
I really don't. It suits you so well and it's,
yeah, I love it. It's perfect for you and.
Thank you. Yeah.
Just well, well chosen and well done everyone.
So I'm very happy. Thanks honey bun, I will share
more in videos and stuff but. Totally, totally cute.
What else? Bad bitch.
I don't know, what are you mad about?

(46:39):
This episode is brought to you by Better Help.
I think it goes without saying that Caroline and I are highly
therapized, big believers in therapy.
I personally have been in and out of therapy for 10 years, and
I credit it with, honestly a lotof who I am and how I show up,
how I speak about myself, how I speak about the world and my

(47:03):
relationships and people, and how I break down and understand
those things. Like I think I've always been
empathetic and analytical and a feeler and I've always had these
types of traits, but therapy really helped me put it all
together in a way that I can be proud of.
And I'm such a believer that therapy would benefit everyone
and anyone. The bummer about it is that it

(47:25):
can be really inaccessible, really expensive.
Traditional in person therapy can cost anywhere from 100 to
$250 per session, which adds up really fast, especially if
you're starting out and maybe atthe beginning you're going every
single week. Like that's a big investment to
make. But with better help online
therapy, you can save on averageup to 50% per session.

(47:47):
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But if you can get it for less and edit from the comfort of
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out? So if you've been thinking about

(48:08):
starting therapy and just don't know where to start, are afraid
of the expense, feel like it's alot to leave your home and cry
to a stranger in some office near the zoo.
That's where my first therapy was, an office near the zoo in
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Your well-being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com/not for

(48:29):
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That's better help. help.com/notfor Everyone fully spelled out.

(48:49):
I've been wanting to talk to youabout this.
I saw this Instagram reel a couple weeks ago and I saved it
and I will share it on our storywhen this episode goes up.
But I I wrote down the main quote and the main quote of this
Instagram reel is being annoyed is the price you pay for
community. I saw that one too and I loved

(49:10):
it. I loved.
I've been thinking about it almost every day since I saw it.
It was immediately true to me and there's it's like it shows
up all the time. Can you?
Explain it deeper 'cause I do think it needs explanation.
Yes. So being annoyed is the price
you pay for community. So I believe, I think many of us

(49:32):
believe that as humans, we cravecommunity, we crave connection,
we crave being with other people.
But at the same time, we get so easily annoyed by other people,
whether it's one-on-one, your friends aren't really like are
kind of bugging you that day or whether it's in in a sea of
people that you don't even know,just walking around town and

(49:56):
you're observing people all the time who are irritating to you.
And you're like, why is that person doing that thing?
What the hell? I just want to be home alone.
And it really helped put that into perspective for me.
This, this, these like two sidesof my brain, one of which is
very craving connection, very extroverted, you know, so many

(50:17):
relationships, love, just being in the world.
And then this other side of my brain that is like fuck all
these people. The price you pay for community
is being annoyed. You will be annoyed by your
friends at some point. You will be annoyed by your Co
workers at some point you will be annoyed by having to run your

(50:39):
errands or having to or going tolike that event that you like,
thought would be cool but then ended up being annoying.
Or trying a new yoga class wherelike you're trying something new
and you think it'll be good for yourself.
And when you get there it's likekind of good.
But the instructor's voice was also kind of weird.
Like whatever it is, you will probably be annoyed at some

(51:00):
point by other people and by being in the world, but that
doesn't mean that it's not exactly what you need anyway and
it not worth going and getting. It's just part of the price.
Yeah, I loved it so much I felt like I needed to hear it too, as
someone who's always annoyed obviously, but I think what I

(51:20):
really loved about it. I can't remember if he said this
in the video, but for me, it perfectly explained why I have
some lukewarm feelings about thespirit of Protect My Peace.
Obviously, and I think I've talked about that a little bit
on the podcast, Like, obviously protecting your peace can be a

(51:43):
really important direction of growth, depending on where
you're coming from. If you're coming from a place
where you let people abuse or deplete or use you and exhaust
you all the time, learning to protect your peace is a great
direction of growth. But the way I experience Protect
Your peace used or said, usuallyon fucking social media because

(52:04):
that's where all the idiots are,is in a way that you will
protect your peace into isolation.
If you're protecting your peace every time there's something
somebody wants you to do, something you don't want to do,
then you are going to protect your peace into complete
isolation. Because like you said, even the
people you choose and love more than anyone.

(52:26):
My very best friends, my boyfriend, my family members,
like I guess I choose them less,but I do love them.
They, they will never make the exact same decision in every
single circumstance as I would. They will never have the exact
same preference for everything as I would.
They would never approach every situation the exact same way I

(52:46):
would. I bet with my friends, we have
like 70. My best friends, maybe we have
like 70% overlap. Justin and I, maybe we have like
80% overlap, but it's not fucking 100 with any single
person. They're going to approach things
differently. They're going to have different
preferences. They're going to make fun of
your favorite cry movie when youinvite them over to watch it

(53:08):
with you. They're going to say things that
are annoying and handle things in a way that is just not yours.
And it's so easy to be like, people even write in about this
with like, oh, what if my partner and I do this
differently? It's like, yeah, you're going
to, you're going to. You can just be annoyed and also
accept that every person is going to do things differently

(53:28):
from you, a way you wouldn't prefer sometimes.
So I do think there's really a toxic side of the protect my
peace mantra of just being like,I'm never going to do anything
that I don't want to do that doesn't exactly align with me.
You can choose that and it will be a very lonely life.
And it's funny that so much of that protect my peace bullshit,

(53:51):
I feel like comes from America, which notoriously has one of the
most isolated populations and the like, the the worst
integration of community globally, Like we fail the
hardest. Our people are the loneliest.
And it's because I do think it'sit's not a coincidence.
It's because we have such an individualistic culture here.

(54:14):
There's benefits to that and there's definitely losses that
come with it too. I hate that.
I think I kind of hate the the toxic protect your peace thing.
And I felt like that Instagram reel really capitalized.
I'm like, yeah, be uncomfortablesometimes, bitch.
Or at least know that that's thetrade off it.
You can protect your peace into isolation, but then don't claim.
Don't complain about how no one's there to have your back

(54:38):
because you don't have their back.
Right, Yes, exactly. And I do think like for me, part
of my piece is knowing that I have community.
Part of my piece is knowing thatI have people who have my back
or being able to go for a walk and see that there's all these
people with all these lives thatI don't know about.

(54:59):
Like something about that also is very healing to me when I am
feeling too much in my head, toomuch in my isolation, too much
like I haven't gotten out of thehouse.
So for me, peace is attached to community.
Annoyance is also attached to community.
But like these things don't haveto be mutually exclusive.
And I feel like there's too muchof this culture of talking about

(55:21):
protect your peace. That exactly does it straight
into isolation. And to me, that's no longer
peace. Because when you.
It's control total control. I want total.
Control, yes. And it goes to, I mean, we've
talked about this a lot on the podcast, too, like an
overprotection of boundaries or like a misunderstanding of what

(55:44):
setting a boundary is. I think sometimes people and the
way that boundaries get presented online and on social
media, people will think of it as like, Oh, well, I don't like
that thing. So I'm putting a wall up between
me and that thing. And it's like, that's not
actually, if you do a lot of like boundary work in therapy,
that's not actually what it is at all.

(56:05):
What it is is saying like, if this thing happens, this is how
I can control my reaction and I can stick to that for myself.
It's actually about yourself andhow you react to things.
It's not about stopping completelike cutting off contact every
single time because it's not realistic.

(56:28):
And I think it has to do with that a lot.
It's like it's not realistic formost of us and it's not healthy
for any of us to completely cut ourselves off from community.
So you can set certain boundaries, but those boundaries
aren't going to look like complete walls and beep through.
Sometimes is annoyance that thatwas a little abstract, but

(56:50):
that's just how I felt when I watched.
That reel, I was like this. Puts something into words for me
that it was great I've been thinking about.
I was talking to my. Sister too.
And she was, she was, you know, she's a hater, I said at the
beginning of the episode. And she was venting a little
about work, venting a little about friends.
And I always hesitate when talking to her to give advice.

(57:13):
Like I've just learned over the the years that she values me
listening and affirming much more than giving advice.
And occasionally she will, she has started to actually ask for
advice on certain things. And then in those situations, I
I'm like elated and honored and touched and whatever as an older
sister. And I'll show up in those

(57:34):
moments. But like, most of the time, I
just try to listen. And I really am careful about
what I add to her problems whileshe's venting them to me.
And so she was talking about, yeah, venting about a bunch of
stuff, community related stuff, frustration with people.
And I had just watched this reel.
And I was like, you know, it kind of reminds me of this reel
I just watched. And I told her this quote, and

(57:55):
it really resonated with her. And like, it's a risk.
It's a risk for me to throw something in like that with her,
you know, to shift, to try. And shift someone's perspective.
Yeah, I just think this was so good.
It resonated. With me, it's not something I
came up with. You don't have to.
It's not like you're older. I didn't say it.
Listen, don't be platitudes. Yeah, it's something that.
I saw on the Internet that I related to as a person who's a

(58:18):
little more of a lover, a littlemore of like an extrovert, a
little more of a community oriented person than you.
It even resonated for me. So I really think you need to
hear the beauty of Instagram Reels.
It's like. Listen, I didn't say this.
I didn't say it believes it. That's what I hope.
People are doing. When they send our Instagram
reels to people like I didn't say it but literally we should,

(58:39):
we should start a feature where?If you need like very specific,
very pointed advice to yell at one friend and you're too afraid
to say it, write it up to us andI'll do it.
Oh, I'll fucking do it. Oh, I love that.
I'm not going to send a happy birthday message to someone that
I don't know halfway across the world, but I will send them
scolding advice that they need to hear.
You don't need it. Just say the word and I'll do
it. I actually love that for the

(59:01):
what a do's that. We get that are about somebody's
friend 'cause sometimes people write in and it's not their own
problem. It's like I'm watching my friend
do this. Friend needs to smack it across
the ass and I'll. Let us yell at them.
I love that it actually. Resonated with your.
Sister, because I feel like the thing, I'll have so many things
to say. First of all, I feel like
healthy boundaries should actually foster your

(59:25):
relationship. The healthy boundaries for the
most part, except for cutting someone off, which is a
boundary. But like that's unless it's like
a final thing, like, OK, I'm no longer talking.
I'm no longer going to have a relationship with this sister
anymore ever. OK, so yes, it's a boundary, but
that one is like a it's a different category when you're
actually cutting someone out. But I think other healthy

(59:46):
boundaries should allow you to keep a relationship with that
person, you know, being like, because I want to keep a
relationship with you, because Iwant to keep you in my life, I'm
not going to talk with you aboutthis thing anymore.
Or because I want to keep you inmy life, I'm not going to engage
on this thing anymore. They're the healthy boundaries
are actually about maintaining relationships, maintaining

(01:00:08):
connection. So I feel like that can be one
way maybe to distinguish am I like doing toxic protecting my
peace or healthy protecting my peace?
Because I do think both exist, but it's like, is this fostering
connection or is it? Or is it just another way of you
shouting the word boundary so that you don't have to
compromise anymore and never have to be outside your comfort

(01:00:30):
zone and it's actually cutting connection out of your life.
That's a really good way to put it.
Also when you said shouting. The word boundary it at the
boundary it. Reminded me of yes, people do
that all the time. Now, and it reminded me of this
scene from The Office when Michael Scott is like, I declare
bankruptcy and he's like all youneed to do.

(01:00:52):
Is declare it and then. Like you're recognized as
bankrupt and all your problems are solved.
It's the same people are like I declare boundaries and like like
it's not actually. Doing anything like it ends the
conversation. Yes.
Yeah, I have. So I have so many complaints
about weaponized therapy speak Yeah.
Oh, it's just getting worse and worse.

(01:01:13):
I thought that. We all realized that that was
happening like maybe a year ago,and then we decided, no, let's
stop. But no, I think that was just
like whatever cohort of people I'm in wanted to stop.
I think most people have not figured that out yet.
My recent complaint. Is I'm OK?

(01:01:33):
So weaponized therapy speak is like a prevalent trend of people
using terms were yeah concept they've like heard about in
therapy or therapy adjacent places basically to to win
fights. And.
Stop communication. It's on.

(01:01:53):
They're not using it to like understand, to bridge gaps.
It's more using it to be like, that's my trump card because and
anyway, there's a million ways people do it, but it's it's like
using the web, using it not the way it's intended, but another
version which isn't weaponized, but I feel like people need to

(01:02:14):
smack across the face about it is when somebody writes you a
message, I feel like it's usually in writing over like a
text. And they're not doing it to be
manipulative, but they've written it as their therapist
might tell them to say somethingand it's no longer in their
voice. So it's no longer authentic.
And it's like, OK, I understand you went to therapy, but I don't

(01:02:35):
actually feel like you're connecting with me right now.
It's like, I think you can say, you can say the healthy, like,
you know, striving to be more mature, striving to be more
commutative, you can say those things in the healthy way, like
strive to be better, strive to be more open, but still put it
in your own words, 'cause if youdon't put it in your own words,

(01:02:56):
even with the best intentions, it's, it's kind of like
communicating from behind a wall.
You're not actually being vulnerable 'cause you're not
speaking as yourself. And I'm your friend.
So I fucking know it. You know what I mean?
I do know what you mean. I'm curious.
How you? How you how you know when that's

(01:03:16):
what's happening? Like, yes, I don't think it's
intentional. I don't think this is the weapon
that's. Thing I think it's people just
like not knowing how to take thelesson and translate it to
themselves, interpret it. I'll give you how I know what's
happening. I'll give you the way I know
it's. Happening if you get a text
that's like I do hear what you're saying, you are hearing
reflex backs, you are saying reflex back this thing and that

(01:03:38):
is important for me. I do care about your feelings.
What I'm also processing is curiosity about how we can.
It's like all of those feelings might be genuine because like
everybody I know is like a fucking sweet ass person.
That's why I try them that they're trying and I understand
there's trying, but like God, just just just try.

(01:03:59):
Just like really put the words in your chest and like I got
you. There's the same feelings, but
like speak like a fucking person.
Speak like the person unless youalways talk like that, unless
it's me, even with my therapist,sometimes I get fed up where I'm
like, you're not actually speaking to me as a human
sometimes, which is OK, Like there's a therapist client
dynamic, but there's moments where therapists are asking you

(01:04:23):
to relate as a human to human. And I'm like, well, if you want
to relate human to human, speak to me as a human because you
are, you're therapizing at me right now.
And that's not how a human speaks.
So like, I don't know, that's like a personal pet peeve that I
feel like gets in people's way. And I'm like, OK, I understood
you read a book, but I don't actually feel like the whole
point is for each of us to show up in a whole and honest way.

(01:04:45):
And this actually isn't it. I'm as soon as you say what?
I'm hearing is blank. I've checked out of the
conversation. It's like just say, I get that
you can, I understand. You, you're allowed to say it.
Just say I get. That OK, that makes sense.
OK, that makes. Sense.
I get that. Just speak how you normally
speak. You can communicate the same
thing. I think 'cause I think it makes

(01:05:06):
people, it has an effect on people.
You start to close up and you'relike, oh, so now we're having a
business meeting, OK. And it's the opposite of
vulnerability. It is hard.
It is tricky though. I don't know that I've been on
the, I know exactly what you're describing.
I don't know that I've been on the receiving end of it very
much. But it also makes me think of

(01:05:26):
like apologies and knowing and trusting that somebody's
actually sorry when they say sorry.
And I find that to be like a very weird territory because I
don't know, everybody communicates differently.
And apologizing is harder for some people than it is for

(01:05:47):
others. And you like, I always want to
meet people where they're at andjust like, believe in apology
when it's given to me. And then it's more like if
moving forward, I see that there's a change or that there's
intention to trying to change, then that's really what

(01:06:09):
solidifies the apology. But until I see that I tried to
be someone that just like takes their word for it, like, OK,
you've said sorry, I'm going to take your word for it.
And now I'm going to see how it unfolds.
But I think there are some people that I've encountered who
like, I'll say sorry or they'll receive an apology and they

(01:06:29):
don't believe it in that moment.They're like, that's an
instance. That's not your apology.
You default to. Trust and they.
Don't. Yeah, and it almost.
Reminds me of what you're talking about.
Like there's one thing of how somebody phrases, I understand
what you're saying, but I it's also a hard thing to navigate
when you like, I want to be somebody that trusts what people

(01:06:50):
are telling me if they're my like loved ones and close people
who are trying. And only in how it unfolds will
I really know whether they were genuine or not as opposed to
picking apart their language. I guess.
I'm not saying it's not genuine.I'm saying.
And I'm not saying you can't send me that text, but it's the
difference between like, I just think it's a communication step

(01:07:14):
that is getting in people's way.You know, like if the whole
point is to trust that both people are showing up as
themselves, because it's what itshows is it shows calculation.
And it doesn't have to be malicious calculation, but it
shows that you're not really in it.
Because it's one thing to have learned a lesson from your

(01:07:35):
therapist or from a book you read.
And it's one thing to actually be in your feelings and in the
moment and just speaking as a person rather than saying, OK,
let me go through my checklist and do an A mad Lib to fill in
the blank of what it looks like to communicate in this moment.
If you're, if, if you're, if you're trying to mechanically
calculate how you're supposed tocommunicate, then you're not

(01:07:57):
really listening and you're not really emoting.
So I do it. I don't, I don't think it's a
failure or malicious or I don't trust it.
I think it's usually in earnest of people trying to do better.
But I think there is a further step if I can hold us all to a
high standard, which I think I can of like, I think, I think I

(01:08:18):
want to say this because I thinkpeople do think they're doing
the right thing by being like, I'm supposed to phrase.
It like a therapist I'm. Supposed to phrase it in this
way, but I think like the further step with that good
intention is to no, you can phrase it as you make sure you
really feel these things so thatyou can naturally translate it

(01:08:38):
to yourself. Because I think it's going to
make the exchange much more effective if people can see
you're speaking as yourself, showing up as you.
Yeah, Yeah, I agree with you. Because if.
Someone were to show up in that way with me, I would going back
to what I was saying, like I would probably still accept
their apology, accept what they're saying.

(01:08:58):
You know, they try, they're trying.
This is them trying. But I would almost like still
keep them on my radar a little bit as to like, OK, now let's
actually see what happens next. Because they're, the way they
phrased that doesn't convince methat they fully feel it.
So I hope that things get better.
But if they don't, it'll kind ofall line up together and make

(01:09:21):
sense that like, Oh yeah, they're the way they phrased
that was a little calculated andforced and not natural to them.
And now I'm seeing that they're actually not really changing the
behavior. And so like, yeah, I, I was
right to, to question it at the time as opposed to somebody who
maybe just literally doesn't know how to communicate it, but
then does get better at whateverthe thing was.

(01:09:44):
And you can kind of be like, OK,they're, they're trying, you
know, like, I think there's a continuation that needs to
happen to know whether that was genuine effort or calculation.
But I agree with you, if you're the person in the in those
shoes, sending the text, sendingthe apology.

(01:10:05):
I'm not talking about apologies,by the way.
Yeah, I know, communicating. Through stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's the easiest like. Comparison I can make.
Or like word I can use, but yeah, just like talking about
conflict or yeah, trying to do something.
Hard because I do think there's two versions.
I think there's people who are like they're really trying in
earnest to do their best and I'mlike, OK, just put it in your

(01:10:25):
voice. Put it in your voice.
So I know you're really here andI'm, and you're not just
focused, I think because there'sall this therapy talk around.
There's like a certain category of people, probably our friends,
you know, like our demographic, young females who are trying to
better themselves and trying to do better, who like we want to
get an AI, want to get an A at this communication.

(01:10:47):
I want to get an A at the communication.
I know there's a way I'm supposed to do it and I want to
get an A in it. And I know that the other people
I'm friends with know that there's a way we're supposed to
do it. So I want to be seen doing it
the right way. And then you're no longer
actually listening and emoting. Instead, you're trying to get an
A at communication. And I feel like that is it's
it's like ironic how that it backfires, but I don't think

(01:11:08):
people know it backfires. I think they just think, OK, so
we all know about therapy and how you're supposed to do it.
So I want to be sure that I'm seen doing it.
And there's a people who do thatin earnest.
And then there is the other group of people who I think do
this therapy talk so that they can check the box and still be,
they can still be and still be shitty.
Yeah. Those are two different things.

(01:11:28):
I think, you know, when I receive it, it's not people
trying to be shitty, but you're also not.
You're missing the point, kind of.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Yeah.
I I understand exactly. What you're saying?
Yeah. It reminds me of this woman who
was just on Love Is Blind, whichwas a terrible season of Love Is
Blind. It was Love is Blind Minneapolis
or something. It was really, really boring and

(01:11:50):
really not interesting. And this show is definitely like
on its last leg. I mean, it's not because
probably people people still watch it is what do you think it
is like they haven't found interesting.
Characters or why I think so. There's a couple things I think
in. Minneapolis specifically, like
Ryan was born there and grew up there and until he was like 6,
but his brother until he was 10.So I was talking to them about

(01:12:13):
it because they have some memories of like that community
and what that town is like and that city, and it's very
homogeneous and everybody knows each other.
So I think for this particular season, it was hard for them to
cast people. It's like a certain cohort of
people would even do a reality dating show.

(01:12:35):
You're already picking from a. Small pool they.
Have to be single and ideally part of Love is blind is that
you don't know what the person looks like or whatever.
So ideally none of them know each other.
So I think that was hard for them to like.
That brings it down to four people in many of them.
Exactly. So I think that's part of it.
And then like larger outside of just Minneapolis, it's the 8th

(01:12:57):
season or something of this show.
And I just think with any reality show, as time goes on,
the authenticity erodes. Like people are now going on it
for the social media following more than for the love, I'm sure
the whole. Time.
I feel very strongly about this when it comes to reality dating

(01:13:17):
shows because I watch a lot of them that they're good, like
early on they're. Yes, but not only that, it's
like people always. Debate like, oh, are they on
there for the right reasons? Like are they there for love or
are they there for a following? Guess what?
They're all there for both because nobody goes on a show
for love purely because they would just date how everybody

(01:13:38):
else dates if all they want is love.
These are people who also are interested in a following, in
building a brand on social mediaor whatever.
And that's OK. They're allowed to be.
And then within that, So all of them are that.
And then within that, I think there's a spectrum of like how
open they are to actually also meeting someone and having a

(01:13:59):
serious relationship. Some of them it's zero and some
of them it's really high. And most of them it's probably
somewhere in the middle because they probably think, oh, that
would be awesome. But what's the likelihood that
that's gonna happen? Pretty low.
So there's a whole like weird expectation that gets set.
But anyway, I do think that as the years go on and more seasons
happen of these shows like that,the scale tips a little bit and

(01:14:22):
it goes more from people who arelike, they all want a little bit
of the clout, but they're also open to love.
And then the scale tips to they still want the clout.
They probably want that even more at this point than the
love. So I think anyway, I just think
that's what happens. And the recent seasons have not
been very interesting because they've not felt genuine

(01:14:46):
interesting. Yeah, but there is this one.
Woman on this season. Whose name is Madison.
And she comes across at face value as like highly therapied.
Like she talks about trauma thatshe went through in her
childhood and all of the work she's done to learn herself and
learn communication and heal from it and whatever.

(01:15:10):
And like, I think to the naked eye and to somebody who's maybe
not as analytical about people and maybe not had as much
therapy themselves, she comes across as like, oh, she really
did do the work and she's healedand she's saying all the right
terms. And she's saying things like,
oh, I hear when you say this XYZor even what she kind of does.

(01:15:34):
Both of the things that you're talking about.
She has weaponized therapy termsa bit in how she showed up on
the show. And she also like to manipulate
to manipulate situations. Yes, but I don't think it's
intense. I just want to say.
Like, I don't think people just.Saying, oh, I hear you saying
this. I don't think everyone doing
that is. I don't think that's weaponized.
Just to be clear. I think it can work.

(01:15:55):
I think it can work against you,but I don't necessarily think
you know, weaponized is when I think people are being
manipulative and shitty and malicious.
I think most people just don't know how it's working against
them. OK, she's doing both.
She's doing both. Sometimes it would be like.
Weaponized therapy speak of likeboundaries and narcissist and
like those types of things, those keywords, buzzwords that

(01:16:18):
she's using to position herself to look better, I think Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. And then?
Sometimes it's more subtle and Ithink.
This is what a lot of people aremissing about her.
Like it comes through more subtly and I don't think she's
realizing that she's manipulating the situation even.

(01:16:38):
But she is because she has a mastery of like therapy language
and the right way to say something that sounds very
therapized but isn't really genuine or is actually like all
about how she looks more than itis about if you know what I'm
about putting you above everybody.
Else rather than opening up connection, like actual, like

(01:17:01):
whatever you learn from therapy should be all about opening up
connection, not placing you above people, not playing a
trump card, not making people feel intimidated to speak to
you. More like if someone's doing
that to you and it just feels like you can't participate
because it feels like this trumpcard or it feels like they've
won or they've put themselves isabove you.
That's that's the effect it has.Exactly.

(01:17:23):
And to me, it was very. Obvious watching her that that
was going on now I want to watchbut people are split.
You would even you would get this in the first few episodes
like even if you didn't watch the whole thing cuz she actually
doesn't go on after the pods to be with.
So I'm going to watch now. So just watch the 1st.
Few episodes and you'll know. Who I'm talking about so
annoying but yeah, it's very divided online like I'll look at

(01:17:46):
the comments on some you know, love is blind content and some
people are like standing hurt. Oh my.
You know she's a boundary setting queen like she knows
she's so healed and she knows exactly what she's talking about
and then some people are seeing healed isn't just having
certain. Vocabulary.
It's how you treat people, you fucking idiots.
Yeah, Oh my God. So.

(01:18:06):
And that doesn't. That doesn't absolve the people
that she was talking to and dealing with like they all.
This is the price we pay for Community.
This surrounded by morons. This is the, this is the
community I choose. I'm surrounded by morons all
day. Yes, yes.
I mean, I really am, because I'mwatching.
These shows I I might be isolated, but I'm with my love

(01:18:27):
is black. I'm isolated, yeah, but they
they provide. They provide entertainment.
I you actually sold that to me really well.
Now I really want Oh good, because you've watched it
before, but you're. Just not a consistent watcher.
Well I watched in COVID when it first came.
Out and that was fun and then I think I just haven't
consistently watched a show in awhile yeah I'm very rarely do I
watch a show I I was really excited about white Lotus where

(01:18:50):
you watch are you watching I'm watching this yeah I'm like
pretty. Disappointed by it?
I am too. I think it's really boring.
What the hell? It's getting amazing.
Critical reviews. And I'm like, this is just like,
no better than any average ABC network soap opera.
Yeah, I really don't get it. I don't think this.
Season is nearly as good as the last two seasons in any way
dramatically comedically. Character building?

(01:19:12):
None of it. I wonder.
I think it's a couple. Of things like first of all I
actually binge to the first two seasons and I think something
about watching them all togetheras opposed to waiting week to
week changed it for me because each episode is pretty slow.
So just watching a slow episode and then waiting another week
for another slow episode is like.

(01:19:33):
This is extra slow though. Like fucking nothing.
Happened. I was so mad.
Sorry, this annoying. We won't talk about media that
much, but like there was one episode where like OK, cool.
I was like, if somebody didn't watch a show, get out from under
your rock, then you can. But just everybody talking about
you can just skip the end of this.
Podcast, this is the last conversation we're having.
There won't be anything you're going to miss after this if you

(01:19:54):
haven't watched this show, but Imight talk about another show.
If you're not interested in shows, you can just finish the
episode. It's fine.
People like when you talk about this stuff and.
But yeah, there was a whole episode where, like, the beeline
plot was that the group of girlfriends, like, we're trying
to go to a cool a beach club, and they first went to a bad

(01:20:16):
one. Like, that was the plot.
Yeah. And then at the end, it ended
with them being at like, a cooler bar with these guys.
And like, nothing funny happened.
Nothing interesting happened. I was just like, Oh my God, if
you're just gonna like, kill time, I'd rather watch a good
commercial like that. Not literally nothing happened.
Nothing. There was no entertainment
value. There was nothing reflective.

(01:20:37):
There was no sense to it. There was no reason.
There was no poetry. There was no comedy.
There was no nothing. You just filled up the plot with
us getting lost. Yeah, I found myself thinking.
About the themes in the last season a lot more than in this
one, like there was more even though it was still slow, it was
more thought provoking. I totally agree and not a lot of

(01:20:57):
people are saying that. So I'm really glad that you
agreed cause I've been feeling this way and like I'm not even,
I don't even feel like continuing to watch it.
No, me neither. I might, I might.
Wait till they're all out. And binge them and see if that
would do it different, but I'm going to do it.
And then the other thing. Is that I'm watching.
Severance, which when this episode comes out, it will be

(01:21:19):
the season finale day of Severance and I'm dreading it.
It's like, what am I even going to do with half of my brain when
the season is over? But that show is impeccable.
Impeccable content, impeccable production, impeccable
storytelling, impeccable acting.I'm so obsessed with it and
nothing will ever compare. Like no dramatic television.

(01:21:43):
Because, you know, obviously I have my comedies that I love,
but when it comes to dramatic stuff like White Lotus and
Severance and whatever, Severance is peak for me.
And watching it and White Lotus in the same time frame shows me
how much I'm not like liking White Lotus.
Because after an episode of Severance, I'm like on Reddit

(01:22:03):
reading for the fan theories like talking to my trolls
online, like figuring shit out. I'm so annoyed.
I was going to say usually having the.
Episodes spread out and you haveto wait a week for them.
Usually that builds interest. That's why they do that and like
builds hype and use. But so I don't know it's just a
bad season but whatever. I agree we talked about

(01:22:25):
everything there is to say. We did.
I have to go to work now. So I have to go to the woods
with Abby. Go to the woods with Abby we
love. Abby, we love.
Caroline, we love me. We love you.
Thanks, Koop. Caroline.
Caroline the Knitter. Caroline The.
Knitter. Oh, Caroline the knitter.
That's you, Caroline Shop. Name one more time it's.
At Caroline's Knit Shop. So Caroline's spelled normal

(01:22:49):
KNIT, in case, you know, know how to spell that.
Shopopa Shoppe, Caroline's Knit Shop, or as I like to call it,
Shopopa 'cause that's how you know, it's a double PE shop.
Shopopa. Yeah, she's a cutie and you
should go. Support her.
She's based in New York, She does custom knitting.
Just go look at it. And I think that's all for

(01:23:11):
today. We'll see you next week.
Kisses. Bye baby dues.
Abby again I wanted to add an example.
Of weaponized therapy speak. I have a specific person in my
life who will tell me wild interpretations of what I'm

(01:23:32):
communicating, so I wanted to give an example.
Here's a. Totally fake example of what
this might look like. Me cats sleep in crazy
positions. Random person Abby, what you're
communicating when you say cats sleep in crazy positions is that
cats are disgusting creatures. Is that the message you want to

(01:23:52):
send? The answer is of course, no.
What's really happening is that this random.
Person is. Interpreting my words in an
incorrect way and instead of asking me for clarification,
they use their therapy speak to make me feel like a worm.
Thank you. Have a nice week everyone.

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