119. Not for Revenge + Why Does No One Prepare Us for Adult Siblings?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Stop pretending that you always want to be with this person or
or even if you do always want tobe with them, stop pretending
that there's no downsides to that or there's nothing that
you're sacrificing. Welcome back, baby loves.

(00:22):
This is not for everyone. I'm your lover, Jess.
I'm with your hater, Caroline. It's a podcast hosted by both of
us, a lover and a hater, and sheseems exasperated today.
I don't know. The energy is immediately
strange. It's weird I I you know what I
took some Claritin D for my allergies just cause Claritin D

(00:45):
was what I had in the house but I forgot the D part.
It the way the way my body reacts to it is like
amphetamines. What?
And it does that to some people,'cause like, you know, if you
buy. Claritin controlled substance.
It is a controlled substance. Like if you buy Claritin D at
CVS instead of Claritin, they ask for your ID and they monitor

(01:07):
how much you buy 'cause people literally make they use it to
make meth and my body is so fragile.
You're feeling the meth of it. I'm.
Feeling the meth like you can see my my face is flushed, I'm
sweating. I feel like I, I made a mistake
that I can't remember. I'm like so anxious.
I'm, I feel like I'm in trouble with somebody.

(01:29):
I really want a cigarette. Like I'm grinding my teeth.
I feel, I feel like I'm in trouble.
How long ago did you take it? Is this gonna be all day?
Like when is it gonna be? It's gonna be a bit.
I'm about to peek. I took it like an hour ago.
I know the feeling very well of feeling like you're in trouble,

(01:51):
though. I mean, I don't need medication
to give me that. That's just like my baseline.
That's how the anxiety shows up for sure.
Well, all of a sudden I'll be like, I have, I'll go through
like several days of this usually at some point in my
menstrual cycle or something where I'm just like, I feel like
I've, I feel like there's something I'm supposed to
apologize for. I feel like there's somebody I

(02:12):
owe a text to. I feel like there's something I
need to make up for. And I just get, and it's that
feeling. And then I, I feel like I'm on
a, a carousel, like looking around, spinning around trying
to see did I fuck that up? Did I fuck that up?
Did I, do I owe that person apology?
Did I fuck this up? Did I forget this for that
person? And just like pivoting,
pivoting, pivoting. And then nothing ever lands
cause nothing happened. And I just feel I just keep

(02:35):
looking for something. The way you just said pivoting,
pivoting, pivoting like really fast.
Pretty good. That was the meth for sure.
But also, yes, I definitely agree.
It's like, it's very funny that you bring that up today, 'cause
yesterday or two days ago I was telling, I was trying to explain
this feeling to Ryan of like, I feel like I'm in trouble more

(03:00):
often than not. Like I feel like somebody's mad
at me. There's something I need to fix.
I'm just like in trouble. There's just a state of like, my
parents are mad at me. Like the child is feeling that
way, but it's not necessarily myparents.
It's just like there's something.
Someone, yeah, some kind of authority must.
I must be on their shit list. He was like that, that's no way

(03:22):
to live. And I was like, I do I I'd be
living. What are you?
What are you trying to say? I feel like we.
We should have some kind of likediscount for living this way.
Yeah, we should. The cross we bear.
It's such a cross. We've been doing.
When that came up for us, it's because we've been doing weekly
relationship check insurance. What do you hear about it?

(03:46):
I told you we were going to try it.
I actually, I suggested to him that we try it like 6 months a
year ago something. And then immediately I like took
it back and was like, no, I'm not ready.
I can't I, I think I was like stuck on the idea that doing
that would mean that like throughout the week, I wouldn't

(04:06):
be allowed to, to bring anythingup or say anything like I would
have to bottle it up until the check in.
And that's not how I roll like Ineed to and if I do it.
Either yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
But I think when I tried to introduce it to our relationship
a while ago, like that's maybe how I was thinking about it or I

(04:28):
was just feeling kind of restricted by it.
So I was like, never mind, we'renot doing this.
And then now that we live together and there's just like
more, there's more frequency of potential conflict or potential
miscommunication and also just like more stuff that we need to
coordinate together because likemore expenses are shared and

(04:49):
whatever. It's kind of like a mix of like
administrative, logistical stuffand relationship stuff.
And it's very easy for that to take over life when you're just
like together all the time. So we decided like maybe this is
a good time to try it again. So anyway, it was in our
relationship check in that I wasexplaining to him this feeling

(05:12):
of always being in trouble. And I do think there, I do think
that there we've only done like 3 so far, but I do think it's
nice. I feel like we're learning about
each other, which it's very easyto feel like you already have
learned everything about your partner.
Obviously, like cognitively, logically, that's not true.
But it's just very easy to be like, Oh yeah, we've had all the

(05:33):
conversations. Like I know you so well.
We've been through so many things together.
Like we're very open with each other.
We're ourselves with each other.So like, I get it.
I genuinely like, get it and getyou.
And I think we're, you know, learning new things through
this. So it's been positive.
That's awesome, I'm so happy to hear that.

(05:54):
Do you have a regular? I don't know if you're still
doing them, but I know you and Justin at least did them for a
while. Did you have like a kind of like
3 questions we answer every timeor was it just like open-ended
or how did was there any sort oflike structure to doing the
check in? Yeah, we were doing the check

(06:15):
insurance for a while and we didnot like having any structure.
I think what felt good, I guess I can't speak for him, but we
did end up like agreeing to do it this way.
What felt good to me was to not be bound to a way it had to go
because the whole heart of it islike really listening.

(06:38):
What are the larger themes of what I'm feeling right now?
Like I'm so really, really paying attention as opposed to
being like, OK, how do I come upwith an answer to one of these
pre decided questions or something?
Because it changes so much each week.
And that's why I think the checkinsurance are great for kind of
seeing the forest through through the trees where during

(07:00):
the week we still bring up the stuff, little things as they
come up. And I would think like as you
guys live together, there's like, OK, we have like this
little spat about how to split expenses here.
Or we have this little disagreement when we had a
miscommunication about the sofa or we had this little thing.
But the check into me is more the let's step back and look at

(07:21):
the macro. The macro is OK.
We've addressed these little specific things that happened,
moments of friction or conflict or misunderstanding or
frustration. But the bigger thing is I'm
feeling like I don't know, you know how you feel about living

(07:43):
together. We've been living together for
three months and we haven't evendiscussed like how's it going
for you? And I, I feel my anxiety coming
up because I'm trying to guess how it's going for you, but I
don't know, you know, kind of doing that force through the
trees thing. That's what I like for it.
That and that's also why I thinkit works well for a check in
because some of those bigger conversations that are nebulous

(08:04):
and more just like abstract, I often felt like, well, I don't
know when's a good time to bringthis up because it doesn't
naturally come up like on those other more tangible conflicts
like, oh, we're having a disagreement about how to
decorate this room that will come up.
But sometimes it felt harder to be like, when's the right time

(08:28):
to have like a therapeutic emotional lay of the land?
And it was nice to say, like, wehave a reserve time to do it.
And we would both just kind of lay down and be like, oh, we
have our check in. I think we did every other week,
every other Sunday. And we'd be like, do you have
anything top of mind? Often neither of us did.
And then we would just say things that felt really special

(08:50):
or really meaningful to us, liketaking the time, you know, if we
didn't have anything to complainabout, then it would just be
like, I'm. Affirmation to.
You know it means. Gratitude time.
Yes, gratitude of something. I think those are really
important to share, too. And like, yeah, I can't even
think of a good example now, butthings that are, I feel like I

(09:15):
said one of these to Justin. Justin, did I express any
gratitude for you recently that you didn't know about?
I'm trying to think of an example.
Yeah, not much. He says.
That's not what he said. He said I always thank him for
cooking for me or whatever. Yeah.
But I don't know, just saying things that like, hey, you take

(09:36):
care of me in this way. And I know that feels really
natural to you, but I really want to emphasize how unique of
an experience it is for me, whatthat all means to me, like how
much I value that, things like that.
But I totally. Yeah, do the positive, too.
I'll also say since we started doing couples therapy we stopped

(09:57):
doing the check in. That makes sense.
Because when we went into couples therapy, there was like
a specific miscommunication. We were trying to adjust and it
really was a miscommunication. And like, we needed a third
party translator. And so we tried not to touch it
on our own. We tried to like and that felt
really good. It didn't feel like I was

(10:19):
zipping my mouth in between meetings.
It felt like we know we're goingto pick up this conversation in
a place we both feel supported and safe, so we don't need to
like try and do it on our own. And we haven't actually done our
check insurance in a while, eventhough we're doing maybe couples

(10:39):
counseling like every six weeks now.
So it's a lot less frequent, kind of just for upkeep, but
which I love. I think the couple's therapist
keeps trying to like, let us graduate.
She literally keeps trying to belike, I think we're done here.
But it's feels nice to just haveit on the calendar.
I feel like that's our check in now.
Yes, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

(11:01):
That's even how I feel about my therapist having me graduate and
I and I'm like, can I just have it on the calendar something
dog? I'm trying to give you my money.
Right, just take it. I just want to have it on the
calendar. I don't know, even if I don't
come, you can still take the 50%.
I don't know. But yes, I everything you said
resonates and it's helpful to hear like how you approach those

(11:24):
'cause I think we're still figuring out exactly what works
for us. Like the first of these check
insurance that we did. I'm myself, I'm type AI was
like, OK, I personally, I'm gonna feel like I don't know
what to use this time for unlessI have like a little bit of
guidance of like 3 questions to answer or whatever.

(11:47):
So I kind of like did some thinking and some research.
Like I literally looked on Reddit for other people who do
relationship check insurance of this nature and it's just kind
of like Reddit's the best. Reddit is my new religion.
I love it so much and it's like it's definitely what I trust
more than anything for some reason.
I know. And so I went there and got like

(12:09):
a list of three questions that are basically what we're saying
like. They're like conversation
starters a way. Conversation starters like, you
know, a way that you really showed up for me or supported me
this week, Like a way that I could have showed up or
supported you better this week. Do we have any unresolved
conflicts from the week like things?
Like that I feel like that's what it's so good for the

(12:30):
unresolved thing of like I stillmaybe we even talked about it,
but I have this like hangover feeling, yes, that I just want
to check in with you on. That's good.
Exactly. And we've had some breakthroughs
with those types of conversations because it's like
when you're not talking about itin the moment when when it just
happened and you're so overwhelmed and emotional about

(12:51):
it. And you've had a couple days to
sit with it and like, you know, move on and have good moments
with your partner and have just like life happen.
And then come back to it and say, like, I mean, sometimes you
just are resolved and that's fine.
But other times there's like a little bit more that can be said
to put a bow on it and like justfeel better.
And I think that we've had a couple of breakthroughs of

(13:15):
conflict that we had that we talked about in the moment and
then a few days passed and then we in our check in said like,
how are you feeling about that? Are we, are we good?
Is there more to say? And we've been able to just like
hear each other better. I think when it's when it's that
like removed. A couple.

(13:36):
Days later session, which I'm really bad at, but like I'm like
I'm bad at waiting for that. But then the now that I'm trying
to put a little bit of like routine to the fact that that's
how I think we should start to do some of this, I'm seeing the
benefits. So I'm trying to get better at
it. I will say I think I, I really

(13:56):
relate to that feeling of the urgency and the like.
If I have this anxious thought or if I have this complaint or
if I have this feeling of anger,I need to address it soon.
Because what if I missed the opportunity to address it?
And then it becomes resentment or like I don't get to say it
now or like I need him to know this.
And the biggest thing I think I've had huge growth on probably
over the last two years. And literally, I think just

(14:18):
being in relationship with Justin of learning to wait on
some of those feelings. It's not tucking them away and
it's not letting them fester to something poisonous, but just
letting them cool a little bit and slowly building the trust
that we are going to talk about it.
There's going to be time to talkabout it.
And when we talk about it with aslight delay, I'm going to be

(14:40):
able to do it much better. I'm going to be able to
represent him. And we're both going to
represent ourselves and listen better.
And so I, I want to say for any listeners who feel that same
urgency you and I have had, I really think there's a way to
stretch it and to get better. Because the more you practice it
and it's uncomfortable because you want it, it's anxious and
you want to just get it done immediately.

(15:02):
But the more you practice it, the more you get that
reinforcement that like, oh, it's OK to wait.
It doesn't have to be urgent. I can sit on this feeling for a
moment. And I'm, yeah, I think just that
that practice of the check in ingeneral is probably such a big
part of the repair. And I've heard a lot of couples

(15:24):
therapists say like, it really doesn't matter.
You can have as many like conflict moments or
disagreements as you want. That's not really and the
measure of a healthy couple, themeasure is like, do you learn a
little bit about each other through it?
Do you actually take in some newinformation?
And what does the repair look like?

(15:46):
And I feel like that check in after is a huge part of the
repair. So nice.
Yeah, it, it definitely is. I'm like, slowly but surely
loosening my grip on like, the reins of everything needs to go
a certain way. I need to express myself as soon
as something comes up. I need to like, make sure we

(16:08):
understand each other right away.
It's so hard. It's like bizarre how hard it
is. And I was doing some thinking
about like my family and my upbringing in the way that our
household resolved conflicts when I was growing up to, to
just think more about like, why am I this way?

(16:34):
And I think so much of it is rooted there.
Like I was visiting my parents last weekend and it was so funny
to observe them have little conflicts throughout the day and
like the way that those things would show up.
And I was just like, Oh my God, that's me.
Like I think I'm alluded to it on the podcast, but I didn't
give the example, but there was one example and this shit

(16:57):
happens all the time and it's not that big of a deal, but it
can get annoying if it happens all the time.
My mom and I were going to get afacial.
My dad in that same time frame was going to go pick my sister
up from the airport. They have two cars, but one of
the cars is like kind of more oflike, I don't know, it's not

(17:17):
good to really drive on the highway.
Really only one of those cars islike the one he would have taken
on the highway to go to the airport.
So my mom and I are going to getthe facials and my mom says to
my dad, OK, we're taking my car,which is the car that he would
have used to go to the airport. He said, all right, I have to

(17:37):
get Caitlin at such and such time.
She's like, OK, we may or may not be back.
Like we leave like don't really think anything of it.
We go get our facials. We get in the car to come back
home and my mom's like, oh, yourdad needed this car to go to the
airport. That's what he was saying.
And I was like, oh, shoot, OK. Can he not take the other car?

(17:59):
And she was like, he can, but it's like not ideal.
Like maybe he'll be, maybe he'llstill be home when we get back.
Maybe we won't have missed him. We get back home, walk in, he's
still there. She she goes up to him and is
like, I didn't realize what you were saying is that you needed
that car. We could have taken the other
car. Just say what you mean.

(18:20):
And she said it in this like, next time, just say what you
mean. And I just in that moment, I was
like, Oh my God, it's me. Oh my God, it's me.
Oh my God. Like there's so many times that
it's not a big deal. There wasn't a fight.
They moved on. It's not like anything bad
happened. It was a small.
I feel like this is already better than like 90% of parents

(18:40):
ever handle a miscommunication. Totally.
Like the fact that she she was spending her free time thinking
about what did her husband mean to say to her and then like
retranslating what she missed. That's already they're already
ahead of like 90% of fucking parents.
I've. Ever.
That's so true. That's so true.
My parents really like, they really are all things considered
like well matched and I admire alot of things about their

(19:02):
relationship. There are things about them that
I don't relate to or I don't like value in the same way, but
that doesn't mean for them and what their values are.
They actually really do make sense and and work it out
together. But obviously there's little
conflicts everyday and there's bigger conflicts that happen in
life, and I've seen them move through both.

(19:22):
But I think now that I'm just like, taking some intentional
time to notice how I show up in conflict, I was more keyed into
like little moments like that while I was there.
Oh, yeah, yeah. And it was so funny because Ryan
and I have so many of these moments we're realizing where
like one of us says something but really means something else.

(19:46):
Like there's a question behind the question or there's like,
there's what we're saying and then there's behind it is like
kind of the context or what we actually need out of that.
And we're trying to like both work on being a little bit more
explicit with our communication when there's something we need
from the other person so that itdoesn't spiral into like

(20:09):
frustration and annoyance. And then seeing my parents
basically go through the same thing, I was like, part of this
is just being a human, and that's fine, but part of it.
Is like funny to watch my mom react to my dad in like very
much the same way I would with Ryan.
And there's nothing wrong with that reaction, but it was just a
little bit like, I don't know. I don't know who knows what's

(20:31):
like the best way to react in a situation like that.
All I know is that. No, no, I get what you're
saying. I saw myself in her reaction.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like she was ultimately at the root of it.
She wanted to have. She wished that she had better
met your dad's need and request.But then also the way she tried

(20:52):
to fix it was kind of by. Blaming him?
Yes, exactly. Yeah, by blaming him.
I'm mad at you because I wasn't able to understand.
Because I wasn't able to do whatyou needed exactly.
It's a little it's a little ironic.
I understand. Yeah.
The, the thing that you're yeah,of course they're they're not
perfect, even though I think they all there's also obviously
good things about your parents, but that's the thing with every

(21:13):
couple, you know, I think that'swhy I really value talking
openly about going to couples therapy or like talking about
how we handle conflicts. I, I love talking about that on
the podcast and on YouTube because people don't fucking
talk about it enough. And if they do talk about

(21:34):
conflict, they're talking about it in terms of like, oh, we're
going through a hard time or like, oh, we're reconsidering or
like we're trying to take stock of our relationship.
But the reality is that conflicthappens like to varying degrees
in all relationships pretty muchnon-stop.
And I would say I don't even like, I don't even know if

(21:57):
Justin and I have ever really had like a fight, but we've
obviously had conflict. And I want to talk about it all
the time because this is like the most, I really think of it
as the most crucial part of yourrelationship is like, can you
guys figure out you're going to have conflict?
So can you figure out how to do it in a way you feel proud of

(22:20):
and that's nourishing and respectful and collaborative?
Because that is possible. But trying to uphold this facade
that you're just not having conflict and that's why you're a
good couple, I think is really is a disservice to every person
who looks up to you or every person who's looking to take
cues about how they should date or what their relationship

(22:43):
should look like. That's why it's one of the
things I focused on in this YouTube video I made about
Justin's in my relationship. Truly one of them.
This the most beautiful, impressive things to me is how
he's taught me and made it possible to have like a healthy
safe conflict. I think that should be a
priority in analyzing anyone you're dating.

(23:06):
I really do. People should talk about it
more. I totally agree.
I think there's so many things with relationships that should
be talked about more. I mean, there's so many things
in life and like being a woman that should be talked about
more. But another recent example was I
mentioned this on the podcast a few weeks ago too, like I was
going out with. Look how red my face is.

(23:28):
It looks cute. It looks blushy.
This is what I'm saying. This is where I blush, but I'm
so flushed. My rosacea.
Is on the. Front of the cheek because I'm
on crack cocaine in this moment.You're doing really great, just
like hearing me and meeting me where I'm at, you know?
Thank you so much. I'm chewing my own cheek, so
I'll continue. That's why they're red.

(23:49):
I feel like I'm rolling. I'm, I mentioned this recently
how like I was going out with friends and I told Ryan like,
stay home, I'm going out with myfriends and I went out and it
was a mix. It was actually a friend group
that was some girls and some guys, but it was just like the

(24:09):
friends and most people didn't bring their partners.
And yeah, it's like people I hung out with when I was single
and they were single and whatever.
And so I had this moment with myguy friend.
He was like, where's Ryan? And I was like, he's at home.
Like I needed a night with with the pals.
And he, this guy friend didn't bring his girlfriend to this

(24:32):
event either, his fiance. And and he was like, oh, same
here. Like I just told her like, I
need to go hit the streets. And she understood.
And here I am. And it was just like a funny
moment to talk with my guy friend about.
Like it ended up like we had a fuller conversation about it

(24:53):
where I was like, you know, likeI love Ryan and I want to be
around him like most of the time.
But I also noticed that when I go out like, and he's with us,
I'm just more like cozy. Like I just want to go to bed
when he's around me. Like I just like, I'll hang out
and have fun with my friends andthen at some point I'll look
over at him and be like, wouldn't it be nice to just

(25:14):
cuddle right now? And we'll leave early and leave
and miss out on like some of thefun that I used to have with my
friends and. It's like you can't, it's like
you don't want to bring the cocaine to the party 'cause then
the whole time you're just goingto be thinking about when you
can do some more cocaine and thecocaine is your is cuddling with
your boyfriend. So it's like just nobody bring

(25:35):
any coke this time. Not 'cause I'm mad at the Coke,
but because it's too. Because it's too good.
That's exactly it. I was like, please don't mix
this up with like me not wantinghim to be around or something.
It's quite the opposite. It's just I'm too, I'm too like
comfortable or something when he's here.
I know. And there's like an element of
that that gets that. I just want something different

(25:57):
from that. And anyway, this guy friend
really agreed and I had never really had that conversation
with anybody. And like, yeah, had them agree
and just both of us talking about how we intentionally made
the choice for this night out that we weren't going to bring
our partners and we really like understood each other on on this

(26:18):
level. I don't know.
It was one of those moments of like, we should all be talking
about these nuances more. We should all be stop pretending
that you always want to be with this person or or even if you do
always want to be with them, stop pretending that there's no
downsides to that or there's nothing that you're sacrificing.
There's always something that you're choosing over something

(26:40):
else. And just like being able to be
transparent about that with him was really cool.
And it applies to so many thingsthat go not spoken about when it
comes to relationships. We're supposed to just like,
protect it and love it and have it on a.
Pedestal and when you said the other guy was like, yeah, I left
her at home too. I was stressed that it was the

(27:00):
story was going to go another way and he was going to be like
am I right? These these ball and chains are
such a drag and that you would be and that you would be
completely misunderstood in thismoment because it is so rare for
someone to just get it in a healthy.
Way I have good friends, I have good friends, but yeah, it could
have gone in that direction, that's true.
But instead it was like a momentof I don't know, I felt very.

(27:24):
Humanity. Understood.
Actually, yeah. And we just need to all be
understood, don't we babes? We really do.
Oh, by the way, this was actually really funny yesterday
out of nowhere. I don't even know if I was
talking about you or the podcastor anything.

(27:45):
Like maybe I had mentioned something podcast related like
10 minutes prior. And then out of nowhere, Ryan
just goes, how's Justin by the way?
And I was like, he was so cute. I was like, I literally go, I
don't know. And he was like, weren't you
just talking to Caroline? Like, don't you talk to her

(28:07):
basically every day? And I was like, we don't talk
about you except for our whole podcast is like all about our
relationships with you. But other than that, we don't
talk about you. I don't know how Justin's doing.
We don't talk about you. How is Justin doing?
Ryan wants to know how. Justin, how are you doing?
Ryan's asking about you, right? He says.
He's doing well. That's good.

(28:29):
That's good. What'd you say?
What'd you say? He's a little sleepy, but not so
bad. OK, Yeah, I think we can relate
over here. I think we can.
Yeah, I think he's doing pretty good.
I shared on, I guess I shared, Ican say this now, I shared on
YouTube briefly that he Justin works for USAID and he's had a,

(28:54):
you know, he's built his whole career and international aid and
then in his whole career and then in a matter of a few weeks,
it's been completely demolished.Like I think the thing people
need to understand if you've been following the news with
USAID stuff and is that like allthese people got laid off from

(29:14):
USAID, right? Justin actually sells a job for
the moment, but it's and like, oh, layoffs are hard, but it's
not that like these people are getting laid off.
It's that the entire industry has disappeared overnight.
So it's like if you had, you were a doctor, you're a working
doctor. And then all of a sudden the
president declared we're actually not going to have

(29:35):
medicine or hospitals anymore. There's no private practices and
there's no medicine and there's no hospitals.
Like there's nowhere you can gethired anymore because the whole
industry is taking away private government, all of it like your
expertise, everything you've built over years, your entire
resume, no one will ever hire for it again.
So it's like it's been, you know, not to go too much into

(29:58):
his what he's had to go through,but it's been like a complete
devastating, like turn of events.
And it's been those kids got a job.
What'd you say? It's not those kids got a job.
That's right. What'd he say?
And he's just saying it's time those kids got a job.

(30:18):
I don't even know what he's talking about, but he's being
sassy. The funny thing when Ryan asked
about him? Is because like, he probably
wasn't even thinking about. Well, yeah, I, I thought that
might be what he meant because like, obviously we know he works
there and we have talked to him about all this going on.
So I was like, oh, do you mean with the work stuff?

(30:39):
And he just goes, no, just in general, he just genuinely
wanted to know how he was doing.I was like, OK, well.
Just in general. He's sweet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's sweet. I I really shouldn't say any
more about it. I know.
Because that's why I'm kind of not just.
I'm just obnoxious. I just love him.
Oh, I thought you meant about the USAI.
Have to stop talking about it. No, just about him.

(31:00):
He's just sweet little teddy bear baby boy.
Like, yeah, I have to, I have tostop.
It's actually hard being on camera with him because I'll say
something gross. Like we really just we pretty
much just talk to each other in a baby voice.
Like I'm not, I'm not proud of it.
It's embarrassing. Everyone should hate us.
And you know what? We're in love and I can't help
it. And then when we film, I know

(31:22):
like how gross it is. And so I won't subject the
viewers to that. And then all of a sudden I have
to talk to him and this voice you have to speak to him in.
And I'm like, I don't, and I'm trying not to be PDA and not
cuddle, but we are so cuddly andwe're so gross.
Like we're disgusting and to present any other way is
unnatural and it's so annoying of us.

(31:43):
I know it's so annoying of us. And you know what?
I'm just accepting. Yeah, we're really annoying.
We really are. And I feel so happy.
Yay, as you should I totally agree with.
I know that feeling of like, onemoment we're talking how we
usually do, which is like the baby voice and the cutesy stuff
and the inside jokes and the petnames and whatever.

(32:03):
And then like, let's say we're having friends over, and then
the moment the friend walks intothe house, it's like different
people. It's like now we have to put on
our outside adult voice. It's awful.
You probably don't even recognize me like this.
I feel like I'm being fake. I feel like the baby voice is my
authentic self and now I'm putting on this fake business.

(32:24):
Meeting, Yeah, it's a business. Voice I know.
So I've had this business meeting with you.
That's it actually feels. I feel more like a fraud trying
to act presentably. Totally in front of him anyway.
And I feel it. I feel it all the time.
I got high last night. What kind of high?
Like not Claritin D high. Drug style Regular traditional

(32:47):
drug style would. You.
Where were you? Which I don't do.
I was at home in my bed. You.
Just decided time. Yeah, drugs are really on the
mind right now, which I really don't do drugs because my body
can't handle. My body can't handle even like
the chemicals that are in my brain when I'm sober, let alone
adding anything to it. But I had such debilitating

(33:12):
menstrual cramps, debilitating that I like got stuck at my
parents house. I couldn't even like I couldn't
stand up. I couldn't even sit to get in
the car. And I like stripped my pants.
It was just like pantsless in the living room with my mom with
a heating pad and like Advil andAleve painkillers don't help my

(33:33):
cramps at all. And I'm usually a heating pad
does. But I was still like that kind
of pain where it radiates through my legs.
I can, I can feel cramps in my in the nerves of my legs and I
and I feel like I have to throw up.
And she was like, you should probably get like a prescription
from your gyno or something, which I never considered and I

(33:54):
didn't even know that was a thing, but I probably should.
I think I have really severe cramps and she went and got me
like prescription muscle relaxers from when my sister had
a surgery and that did nothing. And so then she was like I, we
also have like these like THC gummies from one of your, when
one of your siblings were tryingto sleep and couldn't sleep.

(34:17):
And I took this THC gummy so reluctantly 'cause I, I haven't
been high on weed or anything inprobably at least 10 years.
And then girl, like it was so high.
Oh my God, how how many milligrams did you take?
Just 10 which I think is like a baby amount.
Is that a lot? We.
As too much for me. The same.

(34:38):
Justin's laughing at me. I was high.
Yeah, we are the same on this front.
Like I very rarely I the word I use and Ryan and his brother
make fun of me is the word I useis partake.
I'm like, I very rarely partake in partake the wheat of it all
because I've had a number of just bad experiences.

(34:59):
Like I've I've never been big into it, but I would take it
socially here and there and likejust get really paranoid or just
like at minimum. Yeah, forget how to swallow.
One time I forgot how to swallowmy own spit, and then I almost
died trying to eat a box of Cheerios.
Or, like, I can't remember. I can't remember how to sit in a
chair or like, you know, the wind is hitting me in an

(35:22):
embarrassing way and I feel likeeveryone's talking about it.
Yeah. Everybody's talking about the
wind. Yeah, everyone's talking about
but like the way the breeze. And then on the flip side, if I
take a very small amount, like 2milligrams, I'll cut, I'll cut a
10 milligram gummy into quartersand take one of the quarters
just to act like maybe I'll try something and I'll partake this

(35:43):
time. And all I feel is like tired and
hungry and I don't really need help feeling tired and hungry.
And then on the opposite end of the spectrum is like total
paranoia. So I very rarely participate.
And 10 would have been way too much for me. 5 is too much for
me. And anybody who's listening who
like is into weed will know how little that really is.

(36:06):
But it it fucks me up. I don't like it.
I know I, I couldn't tell how much it was because I felt like
I've heard my friends talk aboutit and I was like, oh, I feel
like they probably take away more than that.
But I was high, dude. I was high.
And I realized it when I finallycalled an Uber to go for my
parents back home and I started looking on my phone and the

(36:26):
gummy weed gummy hit me while I was in the Uber.
And then I got lost looking on my phone and then I looked back
up and had forgotten I was in a car.
And I was like, oh fuck, I've been in here for hours, I guess.
And we were still, this man was driving me home and he his, his
Uber directions weren't working.And he was trying to ask me.

(36:47):
And I was like, dude, I forgot you were here.
I can't help you. I don't know where I am.
I definitely don't know where you are.
Didn't help the cramps. It did seem to help the cramps
for a while, but I was still pretty bedridden.
Yeah, it was really severe yesterday.
I'm very like knock on wood lucky to not have terrible
cramps and even like the little crampiness that I do feel when I

(37:11):
have my period is is enough for me to be like I shouldn't have
to work and I don't have it halfas bad as honestly like most of
my friends and sounds like. You it is crazy to think like
the amount of pain I think that I've gotten used to just
tolerating because it's it's like 4 days of every month.
So you can't take off 4 days every month.

(37:32):
Like I mean, it was to the pointI was actually visiting.
I went and visited my childhood violin teacher who is also kind
of a dear friend, and she's in like a memory care home now with
dementia and she's really declining.
And it was really fucking sad. And I went to spend time with
her and she we're like, in her memory care, you know, home.

(37:56):
And she has trouble walking. And she, you know, needs support
and a Walker in this. And like, I was having to sit
down more than her. I felt so pathetic.
I was like, she was walking around standing.
And I was like, I have to sit. I need to sit.
But then I was Googling this might.
In case this makes anyone else feel better, I was I'm.

(38:17):
When I eventually laid down withthe heating pad I was like fuck,
does this bode really poorly forwhat pregnancy and childbirth
will be like for me? I was like, I wonder, and I've
always been afraid of this is amI going to be one of those
people who has a miserable pregnancy?
And I googled it again and endedup on Reddit.
Like, does severe menstrual cramps correlate to a more

(38:41):
painful pregnancy or a more painful childbirth?
And the answer is, at least anecdotally from people who
chimed in here were like, I alsohave like medication resistant
or cramps. Like it's really severe.
I throw up for them from them. Like they make me throw up in
pain, which is the thing that happens.
And they're like, my experience is that it made childbirth

(39:03):
easier. I was able, they were like I was
able to go to 6 or 8 centimetersdilated because it just felt
like up to 8 centimeters dilatedof Labor.
Cramps just felt like menstruation to me.
That's how bad it is. And I, I know at least there was
that point of relief. I was, they were like, I just

(39:24):
felt like I was better prepared 'cause it all felt very
familiar. Yeah, wow.
Isn't that crazy though? Some people are having labour
level cramps every month. Every month.
Every month that's. Unbelievable.
I mean, it's so fucked up. Nobody cares about women.
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(39:49):
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lumideodorant.com. That's code not for everyone at
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Stay drier. Boost your confidence girl from
head to toe with Lumi. Oh, you know, somebody sent us a

(41:21):
really good e-mail. Perfect.
It's really good. We got an e-mail from a listener
called the Selfishness Spectrum,and I love this e-mail and I
wanted to read the whole thing to everybody.
Hi there, fellow scientists, colleagues, love the pod.
I deleted my IG long ago, but your discussion about getting
out of your own way, which was our episode last week, hit me

(41:43):
hard. And I wanted to reach out and
share my own version of that because I think you might
relate. Full disclosure, I just ate a
piece of an expired mushroom chocolate bar, so hopefully
things get weird. Have you all ever seen the Sofia
Coppola movie The Virgin Suicides?
There's a part in it where sexy ass Josh Hartnett asks Kirsten
Dunst out, but her overprotective father demands

(42:04):
that he come to their house first for an evening.
Joshie clearly doesn't want to be there, but he's so hot for
Kirsten that he suffers through it.
Something about how Kirsten Dunst actually enjoys watching
him squirm in that moment feels so empowering because it's the
kind of thing I wouldn't be ableto tolerate letting someone do
on my behalf. Suffer for a date with me?

(42:25):
What the hell am I talking about?
Fear of resentment and taking responsibility for other
people's feelings. I grew up believing that self
sacrifice and perfection was theprice of worthiness.
Scientific fact, this is what you get when two visit doctors
are your parents. So I spent spent a lot of time
fearing people's resentment if Ilet them go out of their way for

(42:46):
me or treat me sweetly because Ifelt I hadn't quote earned it.
I always had to make sure that the scales were tipped slightly
against me. The moment I was in debt to
someone emotionally, God forbid,financially or or otherwise, I'd
panic and have to pay it back tenfold.
A big part of growth and healinghas been finding a healthier

(43:06):
spot on what I lovingly call theselfishness spectrum.
Much like the sexuality, autism,ADD, whatever spectrum, we all
must exist on the selfishness spectrum.
A few years ago, in my late 20s,I started to understand that
imbalance is actually essential to any kind of real connection,
and that in fact, good people even like to do things for you

(43:29):
just like you do for them. So it just feels good to exist
with an energy that says I am a person who respects herself and
expects you as well and expects you to as well.
It really lubes up my life. I think what it all comes down
to is grace for yourself, for others, and just in general.
We don't have to earn it. I've noticed that the people who

(43:50):
seem the most mentally healthy are the people who won't
abandoned themselves. They have an optimism grounded
in self respect where you just know that even if something
awful happened, like their partner died, they'd be able to
make life beautiful again because they have their own
back. And I think that actively,
almost radically, letting peopletreat you like you are precious,

(44:10):
accepting the loss of control involved there, and trusting
that they're not quietly tallying their resentments
against you is all part of having your own back.
What Caroline was saying about wedding dress shopping reminded
me of this. Where are you 2 on the spectrum?
Then she said PSI. Also love those Trader Joe's
strawberry mochi, but not to ruin it for you, they're the

(44:31):
exact size, color and consistency of an old man's
nipples who's been in the bath for too long.
Know what I mean? I really like this person.
I really like this person. I really want to be your friend.
I think you're wise and funny and a good writer.
And I thought this e-mail was amazing.
Yeah, I feel like that's the entire conversation we've been
having about like, just let people do nice things for you.

(44:54):
Yeah. Whether it's you letting Ryan
Cook you dinner and not having to grovel to not be in debt to
him, or whether it's not you or I having to check in on our
boyfriend's feelings to make sure they're not resenting us
for something. Let them own their fucking
feelings like they're an adult. The same way we're going to look

(45:16):
out for our own feelings and it's fine or whether it's the
wedding dress shopping, you know, that's why I was kind of
pushing back on on you when we talked about wedding dress
shopping of like, it felt like the healthier growing version of
me would like just let people dosomething nice for you.

(45:37):
And it is uncomfortable because that's uncomfortable for me.
But you actually, it's healthy for you to grow into it.
It's healthy for you to lean into this discomfort.
Totally. Yeah.
I, I think that this is something, if you're a, an
anxious female and you're a fan of this podcast, I think the
majority of us know what she's talking about and struggle with

(46:00):
this. I I love what she wrote.
Yeah. I agree.
Yeah, She was saying where are you on the selfishness spectrum?
And I'm like, I don't know if I can pinpoint that yet.
I think that when she was talking about like the
healthiest people are the ones who don't abandoned themselves
and who have like enough self respect to know that they can

(46:24):
have nice things and can be treated well and so on and so
forth. Like it's interesting for me to
to hear someone else say that because I consider myself
someone who has a lot of self respect and like generally likes
myself and generally like, you know, I don't know, I don't

(46:44):
think I abandoned myself in mostplaces, but I think that it is
something I've talked about a lot on the podcast that like in
romantic relationships, that's where that starts to lose its
lose its power. Like me feeling like a very self

(47:04):
assured person who deserves goodthings starts to dissipate I
think in two places actually, inromantic relationships and with
my family. And those things go hand in
hand. Those are the things.
Those are the. Ones and so it's interesting
because she's describing this like self assured, self
respecting type of person and I'm like, that's me.

(47:26):
I like on a good day, I read that e-mail and I'm like, I'm
that person. OK, but on a day when
something's rocked me in my romantic relationship or with my
family or when I'm, I'm just like over thinking those areas
of my life, I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm not.
I don't know what I am. I don't know what I deserve.

(47:47):
So I guess in answering the question about where are you on
the spectrum? It's like I'm on the part of the
spectrum that when it comes to work, when it comes to creative
creativity, when it comes to friendships, when it comes to
just like how I exist in the world day-to-day, I'm pretty

(48:07):
solid. But I haven't gotten to that
final push that I think is like the hardest push for many
people, which is like feeling this deservingness in
relationship in like those intimate relationships which.
The deepest? I would call, yeah, romantic and
family. I mean, I'm working on it all
the time. It's like I'm better at it than

(48:29):
I was a year ago, but I'm still not it's it's still a like a
conscious thought to figure it out.
Absolutely. I really relate, Yeah, I really
relate. I feel I'm, I think I do feel a
similar division where I feel I'm confident and self assured

(48:57):
in certain ways, but different, different maybe than you, but
there's still definitely a self assuredness in so much as like
I, I feel self assured enough tohave a podcast and share
opinions that I think could be helpful or insights I think
could be helpful. I feel pretty confident and
grounded in my friendships and because of those two like public

(49:22):
personas that most people experience from me, I think it's
probably, I don't know if it's surprising to hear how much I
struggle in feeling deserving orfeeling aware of like what I'm
allowed, like happiness I'm allowed to have in my family and
in my and in dating. Those are very separate things.

(49:42):
But I'm it's, it's by far the biggest thing I struggle with,
particularly with my siblings. Like I am so deeply involved in
my siblings well-being in a way that like is really not healthy.
And I think they all know that. They all know that it's

(50:06):
something I struggle with. It's what I talked about in
therapy. I'm like wanting to make sure my
brother's business is going OK or that, you know, the siblings
who are working on sobriety get to, you know, I'm trying to
manage their sobriety. Or that my sister's book gets

(50:30):
the success it can have. Or that my younger sister who's
very self-sufficient in all these ways, doesn't get ignored
just because she's functional and thriving.
And like, who am I giving the time to?
And where am I shining the light?
And do do I owe them? Am I bad if I ignore this thing?
Or like how much do I owe and how much do I own?

(50:50):
And it's just like compulsive indebtedness, but not in a way
that they're asking of it. It's just like, it's obviously
this pattern. I'm so it's draining, but I'm
obviously comfortable with it ofjust like giving, giving, giving
there and then it's very hard topause and receive ever.

(51:14):
It's very, very hard. And it doesn't even seem like I
should I'm and that carries intoromantic relationships for sure.
I I don't, I don't know. It's like I don't even know how
to start talking about it because it's so all consuming.
It feels like trying to explain my soul.
But I get it. The things are tied.

(51:37):
They are, it's the adult siblings dynamic is one that I
feel like is under talked about.Yes.
It's like, I feel like this is the next wave in like pop
psychology and what we talk about is like what effect 'cause
we, you know, now we've gotten better completely about talking

(51:58):
about what effect, you know, having an emotionally immature
parent or a narcissistic parent or a emotionally vacant parent
or an overbearing parent, like the effect that has on you.
And I've only recently started to think about the effect of
having certain siblings, whetheryou have a sibling with a
personality disorder or narcissism or you know, or some

(52:20):
great healthy sibling or whatever, the effect that has on
you is so deep and we don't. Talk we don't.
Talk we don't. Talk about it that seriously.
It's so strange because I don't know, I feel like we, we get to,
we have one thing we say about siblings and it's like birth
order. It's like, oh, like birth order
plays into everything, but even birth order is tied to the

(52:44):
parents. It's like the oldest got treated
in a certain way by the parents,then the middle got treated in a
certain way and the youngest gottreated in a certain way.
It's all tied to the parents. But when you're, when you've
kind of worked through all the parents stuff and you've thought
about the birth order stuff, there's still more with adult
siblings because you're, you're now like out of the house and

(53:07):
out of the purview of the parents and living your own
lives and making your own choices.
And you feel so I mean, it depends.
But I think for me and probably for you and how you're talking
about it, like you feel so tied to these people, but they're
also like their own adults who are your peers.

(53:28):
And so it's like, how much should I be involved and in what
ways? And how close should we be?
And it's what does that closeness really look like and
mean? And I don't know, I, I think it
really is under discussed and under explored.
Like I, I also don't even know where to start with it when it

(53:50):
comes to my relationship with mysister.
It's different than what you're describing, but it's like
there's a lot there and I don't know how to open that box really
to even start describing it. I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know about.
It yeah, I mean, I think yeah, one thing I've been meaning to

(54:14):
talk to you about is like, I don't know all the details of
your guys dynamic, but one of the things I think that's under
discussed with siblings that we do discuss with parents is like,
were you allowed to you know what did conflict look like in
your household growing up and usually think about your parents
like the way I've learned to have conflict in my romantic

(54:36):
relationships is the way I was allowed to at home, which was
that you're never allowed to have a complaint.
Your voice doesn't matter. The authoritative voice always
wins. You are always ungrateful.
You deserve nothing. You're in trouble if you don't.
If you try to communicate something and communicate it not

(54:57):
the perfect exact way, then it'sinvalid.
So be very anxious about ever, ever trying to communicate
anything. Because if you don't do it at
the perfect time in the perfect moment, you're in big, big
trouble and blah, blah, blah. But I think there's a lot of
those dynamics that come from siblings too.
Did you have a sibling who always made you feel like you

(55:17):
were communicating in the wrong way?
Did you have a sibling who made you feel like you were too
sensitive? Did you have a sibling who made
you feel like you were a kiss ass or you were selfish or you
were obnoxious or you were trying too harder?
Like, name a criticism and all these things come up with
siblings and you can have varying degrees of severity or

(55:38):
difficulty. But like, those relationships
teach you how you're allowed to exist in the world, too.
They teach you what you have to do to be safe as well.
And I think they definitely affect how you learn to
communicate and relate to peopleand what you're allowed to
express or not. Yeah.
I think it's weird that we we don't talk about it that much.

(55:59):
Did you have a sibling which made it so that, you know, this
does go back to the birth order thing, but like a younger
sibling that you, as the older sibling, always felt responsible
for. If they were upset, you always
thought it was your fault. If there was a conflict between
you 2 and the parents are mediating, did they make you

(56:23):
feel like it was your fault because you're the older one?
Like, there's so much there. Yeah.
I it's interesting because in therapy more recently, like, I
don't know, I've spent 10 years of therapy talking about my
parents and then in like year 10, all of a sudden I was like

(56:47):
the, the relationship, family relationship that was making me
more anxious or that I had more to like explore in was with my
sister. And I just remember that shift
happening of my therapist askingme about something and saying,
like, are you worried about how your parents will think about
this or what their reaction willbe or whatever?

(57:07):
And I was like, you know, like some version of me would have
been, but I actually feel like I've like really overworked
that. So not really, not really
anymore. If anything, I'm kind of
wondering, right. If anything, I'm kind of now
wondering like, well, what aboutmy sister?
Like, what will she think of me?And I've never really thought

(57:30):
that before. Conscious.
Like in a conscious way where I named it, you know.
Good. I actually feel like a similar
just like in the last two years,that's been my focus.
And it's so funny how I don't think any therapist would
disagree with us that that's important and has a huge effect.
But like, how often does a therapist say like that kind of
sounds like your father or that kind of sounds reminiscent of

(57:52):
your relationship with your mother?
And it's like it's almost to thepoint of eye rolls.
It's like, you're right. And yes, we say this all the
time. How often are they being like,
and what effect did your closestfriend or closest enemy, AKA
your sibling have on that dynamic?
It is. Huge.
It's huge. Should we answer the where do we

(58:15):
fall on the selfishness spectrum?
I don't know if we answered. Well, I think I kind of answered
it. I don't know.
Different places depending on different relationships.
Yeah, yeah, I think I'm pretty good at receiving in at work,
for sure. You want to give me more money?

(58:36):
Yeah, let's do it, dog. You know, in friendships, maybe
that's like the next notch on the spectrum.
Like I think my friends and I are really good at like saying
what we mean to each other And I'm, I really enjoy that like
verbal affirmation with them. And I think that I'm pretty good

(58:58):
at receiving it like a compliment or a thanks, a
gratitude moment. Like that's most of how my
friends and I give to each other.
I mean, obviously we show up foreach other in hard times and
things like that, but I don't know, I think I'm pretty good at
receiving it. Maybe the next notch from work
stuff. And then if I'm thinking of

(59:20):
those 4 categories as the main ones like career, friendships,
romantic relationships, and family.
Family's probably the hardest. Romantic relationships is a
little easier than that because I'm now in one that feels safer.

(59:40):
Even if I'm still working on this stuff, it's like I can work
on it in my relationship. It's much harder to work on or
feel safe to work on in the family dynamic.
So yeah, that's probably like the order if I'm thinking about
the spectrum. What about you?
Yeah, that's the beauty of finding a good partner.

(01:00:03):
I'm yeah, I was trying to think about each of those categories.
And while I do feel like self assured in some of my beliefs, I
don't really feel deserving or like able to just like take
almost in any of those categories, even with work where
I feel confident in my work. But as soon as I started having
success on YouTube, I started having I was instantly panicked

(01:00:29):
because ultimately I have this feeling if I catch myself
feeling happy or like lucky in life, in a good season of life,
I get, I feel evil, like I don'tfeel like I deserve it.
And it I had several videos about there was one that was
like Confessions of a YouTube and it was now looking back on

(01:00:49):
it, it was just my entire fucking spiral being like, if
something good is happening at me, I know it's not because I
deserve it. And, and I and I and I know I
couldn't possibly be grateful enough.
And there's so many people I love who deserve it as much as I
do, maybe more, and they don't have it.
So I'm going to get punished. I'm, I'm going to be taught a
lesson for this. Like I'm going to be smited,
smited by the gods in like a fucking, I don't know, Grecian

(01:01:16):
tragedy somehow. Yeah, you're waiting for the
other shoe to drop. When?
Good. I'm waiting for the punishment
for being happy. Yeah, literally.
I was thinking about it just theother night because I do feel, I
feel like I'm the luckiest person on earth right now.
Like my life is really good in this moment.
I have a wonderful loving relationship that is mutual.

(01:01:40):
All of my I have good health. I have a job I love that I love
and pays me well. I'm my family and friends are
healthy. Like I'm hard pressed to find
tragedy in my life right now andit's crazy.
I have a home. I can pay for my home, I can pay

(01:02:03):
for my a wedding. Like I'm living a very fortunate
life in this moment and I'm and it makes me feel so guilty
because I don't think I don't deserve it, but I think lots of

(01:02:26):
people deserve it and not lots of people get it.
So, you know, I think people would push back on me and be
like, but you deserve it. You worked for this career and
you worked hard to find a boyfriend, blah blah, blah,
blah. And you worked hard on personal
growth and you're a kind person.You deserve it.
Of course you got it. That logic doesn't work for me
because I know so many people who are good people and they

(01:02:50):
experience plenty and plenty of hardship and and tragedy.
So that logic doesn't, that syllogism doesn't work in
reverse, that good things happenjust to the people who've earned
it. And because by that logic, all
then anyone who's suffering is abad person.
Not true. And all people who are good are

(01:03:13):
happy and thriving in life rightnow.
Not true. So I'm left to think it's
fucking random. It seems kind of fucking random.
And I do believe that I do deserve good things.
I think I've lived a good life and I treat people well and I've
worked hard and I've persisted and blah blah blah.
And also I know that not everybody who's done those

(01:03:34):
things is rewarded. So then I'm just left to think,
OK, so I've been given a nice thing that I could equally have
not been given. So it's not up to me to maintain
it. It could be taken away at any
moment. And I have no control over
whether the good people in my life also get to have that
thing. So it just makes me feel like
I'm living in fucking chaos. Like good things are happening

(01:03:55):
to me. And that almost just reinforces
the fucking chaos of life and how I'm not in control of it.
And I can't control whether goodthings happen to the people who
deserve it or not, or whether they'll continue to happen to
me. Like it actually just drives me
into fucking chaos. And I'm and I think the idea if
you can convince yourself that good things are happening to you

(01:04:17):
because you deserve it and you earned it, that that is a much
easier way to live. It's much more safe because it
means that bad things won't happen to people who don't
deserve bad things and all good people will receive good things.
That's a much cleaner reality right to be living in.
And I think it would feel a lot more comfortable, but I don't I

(01:04:38):
don't see it to be true. How do you feel about combining
the two? Like it happens randomly and it
happens to people who work hard and are good and quote UN quote
deserve it. I have a hard time with the word
deserve, but you know what I'm saying?
Like what if it's a little bit of both?

(01:05:01):
Does that? Help.
I think the I think not, not quite.
I think the way I adjust it, thething that actually makes sense
to me, if there's a logic to it and a system is that what I,
what I define as like a good life is maybe different than

(01:05:21):
some people's definition. Like when I used to have this
debate with my ex-boyfriend, this was like a major conflict
we'd have was this philosophicalquestion of do good things
happen to good people? And I know I just kind of argued
that they don't, but but I, I, Istand by that argument when
we're defining good things as superficial rewards.

(01:05:44):
Like I have money to pay for a home.
I have family and friends to comfort me.
I have income, I'm employed, I have health.
I'm, I don't think that's given evenly to good people all the
time. I think some evil people like,
you know, you see these fucking evil people who are like, how

(01:06:06):
did, how did you not get cancer?And like this beautiful person I
knew died of cancer. Like fuck you.
But the way I really define a good existence in, in some way,
I do believe that good things happen to good people because I,
I ultimately believe that doing good in the world is an inherent
reward. That you might not get rich and

(01:06:28):
you might not. You get to buy a home and you
might not get to work a glitzy fantasy job, but you get to live
a life as a good person and you get to reap the rewards of
relationship and of generosity and of living with values.

(01:06:53):
Living with values, having values that matter to you is a
much more fulfilling way to livethan your only value being.
I want a high status job and money.
Because then if you don't get that, there's nothing really
else to take pride in. But if your values are like
kindness and taking care of people and loving people and

(01:07:13):
trying to put good into the world, then your job status and
your income status and even yourhealth status can't really touch
that. So I think I like, I think I
have different opinions based onhow you define being rewarded
with a good life. And I think what trips me up now
is that I've been rewarded rightnow with many superficial

(01:07:35):
goodness, like superficial gifts, like income, like a job,
like health. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's kind of how I think of it.
I get what you're saying, yeah. I mean, I do think the reward of
getting to live the life that a good person who puts good into

(01:07:56):
the world lives, of being a person with good values, that is
like is an everlasting reward. Hypothetically, you know, if
you're that person, then you're that person.
And if you live as that person, then that that's something no
one can take away from you. And it's just through, yeah, of

(01:08:16):
course. But while you go through the
ebbs and flows of like a period of life where you don't have the
superficial stuff, a period of life where you do whatever the
ups and downs of like those superficial things will bring,
you always have that. So I do think there's something
to be said for that. And then those are the people

(01:08:37):
who, when they do have all the superficial things lining up for
them, appreciate it because theyhave like a good value system
where they can see that and theyknow they haven't always had it
and they know not everybody goodhas it.
And like they just have that perspective that you're able to
have, which though troubling in a way, like having that

(01:09:03):
perspective of being able to say, oh, I have this.
And there's people just like me who don't.
It's also like a better way to live, to have that perspective.
I would rather be somebody who has that awareness about the
world around me and like the randomness of who gets to have
the reward and who doesn't, thenbe somebody who's completely
oblivious to it because, yeah, you're not living.

(01:09:27):
You're not living in a body thathas values.
I don't know the values I care about.
Well, I mean I I genuinely thinkit makes them a miserable
person. You can have all those things,
but are you truly happy? Yeah.
Like when I think about, I thinkthis is a huge part.
I don't know how you relate to this question, but I am not, I

(01:09:47):
don't have an ounce of vengeancein me.
Basically. I don't feel vengeful because
you think about, you know, moments where someone really
screws you over like a cruel person to something like
singularly cruel or unkind and intentionally hurtful or fucks
you over in some way. I like genuinely what I believe.

(01:10:10):
This isn't even something I try to convince myself up.
I just deeply know this that to to act with cruelty towards
people. You are already living the most
cursed life because you like, you have to live that experience
like they're I don't need to wish revenge on them.
They are living such a harder life than I could ever give

(01:10:35):
them. They are living such a harder
life, living that way then they could inflict on me.
Even with their cruelest intentions.
Like I still come out on top because that is a miserable
existence. That is how I feel.
So the cruel people you encounter, the unkind and
ungenerous and mean people you encounter, they are already

(01:10:55):
living out the greatest punishment of all, which is
living in their body every day. I totally agree with you and I,
I feel like I even think about what are the truly awful cruel
things that have been done to mein my life thus far.
And I, I honestly can't even think of something really.
And that that doesn't mean that I've just been like blessed with

(01:11:19):
this life where nothing bad happens or I guess I'm not even
talking about bad things happening, but more like things
that somebody else intentionallydid to wrong me.
I don't view things like that. Like I'm not counting.
I'm not like tracking. Oh, all these are all of the
wrongdoings that have ever happened to me.

(01:11:40):
And I think that the reason I'm not counting those and I almost
live as if they've never happened, they don't exist is
because of exactly what you're saying.
Like I'm kind of like anybody who would treat me in that way
or do something intentionally tohurt me or wrong me.
That's, that's a sad existence that like they've got their work

(01:12:02):
cut out for them. I don't, I don't need to hold
the grudge. I don't need to have like get my
vengeance. I don't need to remember it
tomorrow for me to know that like that's a miserable person.
So I almost like I don't even register those.
I don't register things as such.Yeah.
It's, I think it's a part you feel less losses actually

(01:12:25):
because of your outlook. Yeah, genuinely.
Exactly. It doesn't mean it doesn't mean
there aren't hard negative bad things that happen.
But I feel like for the most part, the things that have been
the hardest in my life and that I can actually think right now
and list like, OK, when I went through that breakup or when I

(01:12:48):
went through that move or when Iwent through that period of
burnout at my job or whatever the hard things have been period
where I was struggling financially, whatever, they're
all things that were like ultimately me.
Like there's obviously a millionother factors in everything.
I can't control all those things.
But they're it's not like, oh, somebody did that to me.

(01:13:11):
It's more like, OK, I found myself in that situation.
I'm not very. I don't tend to like blame
people and attach it to like, oh, a person did something to
me. We just got really existential.
We did. I think that you and I, I think

(01:13:31):
this is one of the most similar things about us actually, where
like whether you call us a hateror a lover, like actually I'm a
very, very optimistic, happy person.
Like I just even, even if I think back on moments where I
was someone didn't intentionallyhurt me or even traumatize me,

(01:13:52):
I'm I'm just like, it made me who I am.
It gave me my personality, probably gave me my career.
It gave me this podcast so I cantalk about things like I
genuinely just feel really grateful.
That's so lame. I know this is really cheesy,
but I feel the same. I do feel the same.
I think that's exactly how we. Gave me my ability to to talk to

(01:14:14):
people and to have friendships and whatever.
To have a perspective, to have like, something to say because
you're not so worried about likeall the things that have been
done wrong to you. Instead, you're trying to learn
something from it. You're trying to take something
from it. You're trying to see, oh, OK,
what does that mean about the world and people and

(01:14:35):
relationships and me and like, let me make sense of it, you
know, Let me find something valuable out of it.
Totally. I always wonder, like, what
makes those people if it's just something you're born with?
Because, you know, I've met likemultiple people in my life who
they have sustained more tragedythan one person should ever
have. Like someone who individually

(01:14:57):
lost three family members in freak accidents, somebody whose
entire family was killed in a car crash and they were the one
who lived. Somebody who had cancer twice as
a child and then, you know, had repeated traumatic assault
experiences in teenagehood and this kind of abuse and that.

(01:15:19):
Like, you meet these people sometimes where tragedy has
piled up. And those are I OK, anecdotally,
those are always the most kindest, loving, optimistic
people I've ever met. And then you meet the people who
always point back to this one thing that was done to them or
this wrong that they sustained and how life wasn't good enough
to them. And that's why they get to

(01:15:40):
justify everything shitty about them.
And it's just not the only way to be.
And I don't know what makes a difference.
I don't even know if those, I don't even know if I judge those
people because I don't know how much they're making a choice or
if that's just how they were born.
But people always will try to dothat, you know, especially on
the Internet. If you talk about something
hard, there's always somebody who wants to say, well, I went

(01:16:01):
through this and it was worse. And that's why I get to be a
cunt. But there's always somebody who
experienced more and isn't a cunt and there's always someone
who's experienced at least that much pain and suffering and is
kind totally or or much more pain and suffering.
And I just don't know what makesthe difference.

(01:16:21):
I'm Yeah. I don't know either.
Like I'm I'm. Mystical.
I'm tempted to say it's a choice.
It would be easy to say it's a choice, but I don't.
I can't honestly believe that that's all it is.
But it would be easier to be like, yeah, if you, if you've
been through this severe, severetrauma and there's a version of

(01:16:43):
you that is a, is still a kind person and took something from
it and decides to give back instead.
And there's another version of you that decides to like, make
it define you and make it validate negativity from you and
whatever. Then why wouldn't you choose
version A? But that's almost why I feel

(01:17:04):
like it can't possibly only be achoice, because wouldn't.
That be a choice. Why wouldn't you?
Yeah, well, I know. That's why sometimes I end up
thinking it's not a choice because I feel like the people
who are endlessly optimistic, like you and me, I don't feel
like I had to convince myself todo it.
No, this is just how I am. So I actually don't even feel
like that. That if we want to extol that as

(01:17:25):
a virtue, it's not even a virtueI chose.
Like, it's not even an achievement of mine.
It's just how I am. Totally.
And if you want to condemn somebody else this way,
sometimes I almost think of it as a disability, like a
spiritual disability. Like this guy didn't choose to
be born without legs and that woman didn't choose to not be
able to experience gratitude. Like I know there's people who

(01:17:47):
cannot experience gratitude. And like for me, I have to
recenter myself on gratitude, but it doesn't even feel like a
choice. I don't feel fucking high and
mighty. I feel like some people have a
spiritual disability. Yeah.
And I always think of something.I was talking to one of my my
therapist friends about, like the difficulties, certain

(01:18:07):
difficulties they experience as a therapist.
And like, what kind of clients do you feel really frustrated
with? What kind of clients do you feel
hopeless with or like, you can't, you have to give up?
And she was like, I feel like I experienced growth and evolution
with almost all of my clients. There's a very small minority
that I maybe don't experience growth and hope with for them.

(01:18:30):
And and I was like, what do you make of that?
Like, how do you fucking processthat as a therapist whose whole
way of looking at the world is based on this idea that we can
grow and evolve and heal. And she just said some people
won't heal in this lifetime. And I was like, oh fuck, I do
think that's true. I think most people can heal and

(01:18:52):
grow. And there are a couple people
who will not heal in this lifetime.
Yeah. For whatever reason, we don't
know why. Maybe they can't choose it.
Maybe they were never given the chance.
Maybe they have a spiritual disability.
Maybe they they were robbed of more love than I can even
understand, and it's not safe enough for them to choose it.
I don't know why, but some people won't heal in this
lifetime. Yeah, I thought that.

(01:19:13):
I don't know. That just like, really hit me.
Yeah, it is the only thing that explains it in a way, you know,
just to be like, OK, and that's it.
End of. You know, dog, am I still high?
I don't know. You're less red.
OK, thank you. Can I say one last thing before
we go, please? Only because I feel like I don't

(01:19:34):
know if I gave a satisfactory answer to the where are you on
the selfishness spectrum? I think just to satisfy this
listener, I think I'm still growing through all of them.
I definitely was on, I think a pretty extreme end of not being
able to receive anything ever. I think I've grown a lot since
then, and one of the cheap easy hacks that helped me through

(01:19:57):
many years in therapy was my therapist would help me think of
I'm this third person visualization where I would like
instead of trying to think, do Ideserve this?
Do I deserve this kindness? Is this enough for me?
Can I accept this? I would think of somebody I
cared most dearly about and I would put my little sister in.

(01:20:19):
In my place, would I allow my little sister to be treated this
way by someone? Would I allow my little sister
to be loved like this by someone?
Would I allow my little sister to be celebrated like this on
her wedding day? Would I allow my little sister
to experience this kind of relationship or to, you know,
experience this favor without having to grovel her?

(01:20:40):
Thanks. Always I would.
Always I would. And then it's a multi many year,
lifelong process of learning to love yourself the way you want
to love and give to those you protect most.
But that in the in the meantime was a really helpful tool to do.
Yeah, I agree. That helps me a lot too.

(01:21:01):
Would I say this to a friend? Would I talk this way to a
friend? I do it a lot with myself.
Talk like, would I be this critical of a friend?
Would I give this advice to a friend?
You know, Yeah. Would I want to celebrate a
friend in this way? Would I feel like my friend owed
me after I gave her this gift? Would I feel like she owed me if
I held a nice party for her? And she needs to repay me now?

(01:21:22):
Right? No.
Some people do. Those are the other people.
This has been not for everyone. What do we want to say?
Send us. Hey, we might record this after
the next episode comes out. So send us your ICS.
We want to do an episode next week all about our ICS, Your
ICS, all the things that put youoff in a relationship with the

(01:21:47):
that you're attracted to. Yeah.
Yeah. So send them to us.
Make them as superficial as possible.
It's like brown hair ain't goingto cut it.
OK, You. That's not your type.
Fine. But that's not your IC.
Give me a real. You want an IC?
Yeah. Yeah.
Men who wear fedoras give us your most unreasonable, least
defensible X. Thank you.

(01:22:09):
But they they make them real. OK, bye.
We love them. Oh my God, I found a wedding
dress. Really.
I did. Oh my God.
Did you feel the thing that we didn't think you would feel?

(01:22:31):
I'm ashamed to say I did. Oh my God, I fucking knew you
were going to. Oh no, I know.
I was debating whether I would shave that on here because on
our last episode we were talkingabout how, oh, this idea of
putting on a wedding dress and being like, this is the one.
What a stupid idea. So much pressure.
But I kind of did feel that way.That's crazy.

(01:22:54):
Which I could attribute to. I tried on so many dresses that
I hated. Yeah.
And then putting on one. I don't, I don't.
I wouldn't say it's like the one.
It's probably similar to meetingyour person.
It's like there's a lot of wedding dresses I could like,
but this is the only one I'd liked so far.
The ones you. Just like book it.
I was just like, book it. This is it.

(01:23:14):
I'm great. It's.
Wow, that's happy. Yeah, I was really happy.

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