124. Hot Not Bothered Summer: Holding Your Standards in the Disappointment That is Modern Dating

It’s the first ever edition of Hot Not Bothered Summer! In this series, Jess and Caroline answer listener’s burning questions about all things dating, and they start out with a bang. They discuss giving men the benefit of the doubt when you’re jaded, how to use dating apps in an intentional way, the best things to ask on a first date, and how to handle a situationship.

Plus, they dive a little deeper into the “hunt” of dating, what emotional baggage is/is not allowed to bring to new relationships, listening vs. talking, and above all, understanding that what you feel is the most important data. Let’s make this a summer of love, babies! Kisses!

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DISCLAIMER: All opinions are our own. We are not therapists or health professionals, or professional of any kind, really. Please see your own professional or counselor for professional support. Do your research and be safe!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
There's not one way to be a bestfriend, there's not one way to
be a wife or a husband or a partner, and there is not one
way to have a date. That's why I like, even with all
the advice and experience, we are happy to share the biggest
thing, the most important thing,is that you practice listening
to how someone makes you feel. Hello welcome back this is not

(00:30):
for everyone a podcast hosted by1 hater and one lover we're your
Big Sisters on the Internet and we are here to kick off our
summer dating series. This is the first episode of the
hot not bothered summer how to date without losing your sanity.
This is the first episode. We're going to have one episode

(00:53):
in the series at the end of every month through the summer,
and we really wanted to make this series for 2/2 main
reasons. Number one, we know how hard it
is to hold onto your faculties while dating.
You get faculties. Was such a good. 1 you get so

(01:15):
many mixed messages, mixed signals.
There's self doubt, there's people who are hard to read,
there's disappointment and hope and what are you supposed to
hold out for? What are you supposed to be more
LAX about? So this idea of like holding
onto your sanity is really the whole point.
Like the goal of dating to me, dating is really like an

(01:37):
exercising, getting to know yourself, getting to notice how
dynamics make you feel, how people make you feel, what you
really like, what you want to like but don't actually like,
what you will tolerate, what youwhat you think you could like
but then or think you wouldn't like in a million years.
But then it's really an exercisein getting to know yourself.

(01:58):
So like getting more in touch with yourself and your sanity, I
think should be the core part ofit.
It's like one of the best ways to learn and grow.
So if you have you have a loved one who is struggling and dating
and you're struggling to know how to support them, how to help
them hold on to their sanity, wemade this episode so you can
send us them as a gift. Just tell them what we're doing

(02:18):
today. Yeah, so each episode of the
series is going to have a littlebit of a different theme.
I'm really excited about all of them.
And this felt like a good place to start because we get so many
DMS all the time about situations you are in where
you're not sure if you should proceed with somebody or if
you're settling, if you're holding to your standards or if

(02:42):
you should keep looking. Like, is the behavior that
they're demonstrating weird or is it something that I just need
to get used to and accept? And it can be so confusing when
you're dating and like you just,you just want to find your
person, but you don't know if you found them yet or if you
should keep going because they're kind of doing some

(03:03):
sketchy stuff. And you don't know if it's like
your distrust that's making you think it's sketchy or if it's
really sketchy. And those can be the hardest
situations. I feel like those are the
situations I find myself advising friends on all the
time. They rarely take my advice.
So this is where I get to screamabout it and they can listen or

(03:25):
not. You know, I, I, we have
opinions. We have opinions.
Yeah, people don't take advice from people they know.
They take advice from strangers.I've talked about this before.
This is a fact. You're more likely to listen to
advice from strangers. So here we are.
We're here to do it. I.
Definitely remember including myself.
I won't take my. Advice.
I definitely remember the feeling while dating of all at

(03:48):
once feeling like OK I know I'm actually being like too generous
and too relaxed and I'm not having enough boundaries and I'm
not having enough standards and also constantly doubting myself
and wondering if I was asking for too much.
Like how could it be both at once?
Like I was right to trust my gutall along.
But it really does take a long time and I feel like there is

(04:09):
such a period of conflicting feelings and conflicting
judgments about and. Is this asking too much?
Like should I actually be askingmore?
Like how can I be unsure about both of those questions?
Yeah, and how can I evaluate somebody in a fairway?
Like for me, something that was really hard was especially on
dating apps, looking at a profile and trying to sum up and

(04:33):
judge, like is this a person worthy of going on a date or not
based on very little information.
And maybe some of the high levelinformation on the app is stuff
that I've been told to avoid. Like they like pineapple on
pizza, anything from that all the way to maybe they have a job
that I'm not really sure like what that is or how I feel about
it or anything in between. And it's really hard to know.

(04:57):
Like do I give them a chance anyway?
Because this is just one screen about a person versus actually
getting to know them. Or am I settling too quickly
already just based on like a dating app profile?
Like I this should be an easy swipe left or swipe right and
I'm spending all my energy analyzing every single word on

(05:19):
it to determine if it's a match.I'm tired and I haven't even
talked. To them yet, and I think that's
one of the biggest questions we get is like how much of a chance
do I give somebody if on paper maybe it's like not what I
usually go for or not what I think I need or think I want or
am familiar with from the past. It's really hard.

(05:42):
It's really hard to sort throughlike your criteria I guess and
how much of it is fair and you should stick to and how much of
it you're is like limiting you. Yeah, I think we should start
with the first what to do. And the one disclaimer I'll give
for everything is like, these are opinions.
They'll be personal opinions. We can't know everything you've
been through or all of your context, but we hope if you're

(06:05):
listening, something resonates. And really, the biggest take
away is getting in touch with yourself and getting to trust
yourself. So if something doesn't resonate
with you, ignore it. Trust yourself.
That's the thing you want to start us off, Jay?
Yeah, OK, I'll read this first one.
It's a pretty quick one, but we've gotten lots of messages
like this. So a question for the dating

(06:28):
series. How do you date and give men the
benefit of the doubt when it feels like every man is just a
boy and no one is going to step up and be a man taking care of a
woman in a mutual partnership? Asking for a jaded friend.
Girl. She jaded.
She Jade. I'm going to call her Jade.
This is Jade. This is Jade.

(06:50):
Do you want to start I I took notes.
I have like I'm trying to find my notes but I took notes and I
have thoughts. I just need to.
Find. Yeah, OK, you find your notes.
I'll say that. Couple things.
Number one, you have to remember, like, I think
something that really gets everybody down about dating is
how many misfires there are. There's so many misfires, right?

(07:11):
You have to go on. Like I felt like I had to go on
at least 10 dates to have one date that was even like, mildly
acceptable. Yeah, and.
Like, not a, not a love connection, just like, just like
decent. And that feels really
discouraging. And it makes you feel like
either you're doing it wrong or there's no hope for anyone and
all the men or all the women arewrong.

(07:32):
And then I eventually like I hadto step back and realize how
hard and rare it is to find connection action even in
friendships, even platonically, even for me with other women.
If I, you know, you know, cross paths with 1000 people on the
street, I probably only want to talk to three of them for more
than a minute. Like you just don't connect with

(07:55):
ever BD all the time. And that also includes whether
men out there will be able to treat you respectfully.
So remembering that like the fact that the ratio, the, the
frequency of a positive date isn't as high as the frequency
of a shitty date, that like a that's kind of normal.

(08:15):
That's just how connection works.
Deep connection isn't an everyday thing for friends or
for a romance. And then I also would spend a
lot of time like really visualizing relationships and
for this listener specifically, men who I really respected,
specific people I know who I waslike, oh wow.

(08:36):
She has an amazing husband who as far as I can tell, seems to
treat her really well and be really supportive and respectful
and like genuinely listen. They really seem like a team.
I think it is so important to really just like solidify those
couples in your head a, to proveyourself that they do exist and

(08:57):
it is worth holding out for. So when people would tell me,
you know, I'd go on a date with someone who was like, maybe OK
on paper, but I didn't actually like the way they made me feel.
I didn't actually like the way they treated me.
And those things were things that, like my mom and my sisters
couldn't see because they weren't on the date.
They could just see his resume, basically.
And they'd be like, Caroline, he's great.
How can you not, la, la, la. And it would get in my head,

(09:20):
like, am I asking too much? And then I would sit and
remember these these couples that I really respect.
And it's not a lot, but you justneed a couple of them.
And I would be like, yeah, that great husband and father of two
and husband to his wife, that guy I know who's so great.
He wouldn't do this. So I really don't need to put up
with it. I think just like holding on to

(09:41):
a few a few visualizations of the people, real people that you
admire. If you hold out for it, you can
have it, but the one way you'll certainly never have it is if
you decide to quit, call it quits early and just settle for
something less than because you'd rather not be alone.

(10:03):
That's a great way to guarantee you'll never get that good kind
of relationship. But they are out there and it is
a hunt. I think it's a hunt, yes.
The hunt point is like totally my point.
I found my notes hunt. The word hunt is in my notes
because it is. You have to remember.
OK, this is something I used to remind myself of all the time,
especially dating on the apps. How many people are there in

(10:26):
this city? I live in Chicago.
Almost 3 million people live here.
OK, obviously cut that down to like, who's single, who's a
straight man, whatever. But you have to remember that
the people that you're swiping by and therefore the people that
you end up going on dates with, and even if you're not on the
apps, the people that you might encounter in a bar or in a
coffee shop or whatever, these are all of the people that live

(10:49):
in the city that you live in. It's so many people.
And so I think your point about like, if I walk by 1000 people,
I'm probably only going to connect with three of them,
whether it's for friendship or for romantic relationship or for
whatever. It is the most important point I
think when dating in this age where we have access to
everyone, remember that literally you have access to

(11:11):
everyone. It's literally everyone All
different backgrounds, all different, you know, baggage
that they bring, all different things that they could be
looking for, all different ways that they like to date and, and
experience things and things that they like to do.
And whatever your requirements are, like you're the bag is
you're picking out random peoplefrom a huge bag of random

(11:33):
people. So yeah, it's really like you
have to do a lot of sifting. It makes me think of thrifting.
It's it's kind of like, well, why should I go thrifting when
almost everything is just, it's like used trash.
It is, but you're not looking tocome home with 100 pieces.
You just need one good one. And it gets tiring.

(11:54):
And that's why I think any time that I noticed myself looking at
people on the dating apps and like, judging a profile too
quickly or being really negativeor having the tendency to like,
be a little overly sassy in my message to them because whatever
they said wasn't impressive enough, that was my cue to
myself to take a break. Like, if you're feeling jaded

(12:16):
and like you can't snap out of it, I think that's energy is
going to come with you when you interact with people and it's
not going to help you. So I would say if you're really
in that space, take a break. But I also understand that
there's a lot of women right nowwho feel this general, like,
distrust of men. And it's not even like a moment

(12:37):
in time when they feel jaded. It's just this larger worldview
that they've developed because of experiences they've had.
And to those women, I say like, it's a it's a numbers game.
And I think you also have to remember, like I was kind of
thinking about this when you were talking about identifying
men in your life who you respectand, and admire the relationship

(12:57):
they're in. And whatever.
I still think an important note is that just because they're
treating their wife, who's your friend, who you now see their
really great relationship unfoldbefore your eyes.
Just because that guy is treating that woman great
doesn't mean he's always treatedwomen great.
And so I think there's an element.
It doesn't mean he's a terrible person, but there's this Gray

(13:20):
area where like, you know, I've ghosted people, Ryan's probably
ghosted people. Like that doesn't mean that
we're bad people to date. It just means that like there's
matches that we've had and datesthat we've been on where that
wasn't the person for us. And maybe we had we chose like
the lesser preferred behavior there.

(13:43):
I guess my point is like just because somebody wasn't good to
one person doesn't mean they won't be good to you.
And I think that almost adds to the numbers game of it all and
like the how hard it is to find your match because somebody
could be great to one person andless than ideal to someone else.

(14:06):
And that doesn't mean. There are different things out
of each other. Right.
So it's just really keeping in mind like this bigger picture
and taking it less personally. Like it's, it's like not about
you. It's all these people that
you're sifting through. Something that I would think
about sometimes that really helped motivate me through

(14:28):
dating and helped me build like a positive relationship with
dating, a positive relationship with myself and really build on
my sense of trusting myself is when I was going on dates with
different people and dates that weren't working out.

(14:48):
Either either they didn't work out within a few messages or
they didn't work out within a few dates.
Whatever the reason, those were still like, if I could, me
choosing, oh, that behavior isn't enough for me, or like I
won't tolerate that, or this actually isn't what I'm looking
for. I'm not going to subject myself

(15:08):
to this kind of treatment, blah,blah, blah.
Those were all moments of success.
That's successful dating and that mindset helped me a bit to
be like, I am able to say no to the wrong thing.
And that's really all it takes. If you're holding out for that
great thing one day, the thing you have to be really good at
first is saying no to a lot of wrong things because that's what

(15:30):
you're going to encounter first.And so it helped me like gain a
sense of trust with myself and being like, I'm actually not
going to get caught in a demeaning or diminishing or less
than relationship. Because here I am getting in my
reps evaluating people openly and fairly, but also looking out

(15:51):
for myself and like building confidence in that, that there
will be some reps you do before you find the person.
And that really is the prerequisite.
The prerequisite to finding the right person is getting really
good at saying no to the wrong people.
And I think it's also important to whether you're a man, whether
you're a woman, whether it's your personal history or the
history of the world or whateverthat's upsetting you, you when

(16:15):
you go on a date. I can't be going on a date and
holding this person responsible for all men in all of history.
It's not fair. It's not fair.
Sorry. I can still have those feelings
and I don't have to dismiss those feelings.
But you're going on a date with an individual and I'm you know,

(16:35):
everything the listener said about feeling jaded about these
less than men. Yeah, I agree.
It's most of them. And it's not something that
would be fair to say to like my father who's a great man or
these other, you know, handful of people, you know, that you
really, really admire that are agreat man.

(16:57):
And you can like both can be true that they are a great man
that is different from the whole.
And also there is like a social theme that has been really
upsetting to you. But I, I do think you have to be
really careful. And like, when you go on a date,
you're not going on a date with all of mankind.
You are going on a date with oneperson.
And I've seen men do the same thing.
You know, they've been heartbroken by too many women,

(17:19):
they've dated too many players, they've been tooled around by
blah, blah, blah. And then you see them put this
on their dating profile and they'll put these prompts where
they show how jaded they are. They're like, I'm looking for a
woman who doesn't actually only care about the size of a man's
wallet. Yeah, I believe you.
I believe that he dated. It's possible to date a bunch of
women who just cared about your wallet.

(17:40):
That sucks for you, dude, But don't bring that energy onto a
date. It's not going to help you.
Who's going to go on a date withthat guy?
You know, you have to be encountering the individual.
And that doesn't mean to disqualify all your other
feelings, but just like, have a good separation between them.
I think that was very well said.Like, no notes, I think we all
carry our own past experiences, our own perspective on the

(18:03):
world, our own assumptions aboutpeople into every situation.
But as much as like, at the end of the day, you're still a woman
who's attracted to men, who wants to find your life partner.
And I don't know how you're going to make that possible if
every single time you meet a man, you're assuming the weight
of all mankind on his shoulders.So I think it's like it, it just

(18:27):
has to be true. What Caroline's suggesting of
like showing up to each encounter as this is a new
individual and I'm just open to seeing what it is.
It just has to be true. If you don't do that, you will
not be giving anyone a chance and you will not get the thing
you want. So it is very much about like
compartmentalizing and just putting that on the shelf and

(18:50):
saying, OK, I feel that way. And also, I'm a woman who's
attracted to men and I have to go out and do this.
And the only way to make that possible is to give the person a
chance and not bring all this other baggage into the
situation. I mean, we're all doing it all
the time, but the the larger what men have done in the world,

(19:11):
it's like big baggage to bring. I think it's like this.
It's this amazing personal growth challenge that dating
brings out where you are trying to all at once balance what you
know and what you've experiencedand also not letting it color
every single thing. You're not trying to ignore it,

(19:33):
but you're also not, but you're also trying to stay open.
And it is like a really great personal growth challenge for
all of us to do. Whether you're singled, married,
just got born, I don't know, butit's particularly important in
dating and it and it's really hard.
It's part of that thing of like advocating for yourself, but

(19:53):
also staying open to being surprised.
Similarly, I, you know, some other baggage you might have
might not be about men, but it might be just specifically
people who've tried to control you or abuse you.
And no one would ever say forgetthat that happened to you.
Get over it. Not everyone's like that.
No, it's a part of you. It's.

(20:14):
Something you know and it shapedyou.
And also if you see and are looking for that in every person
you meet, you will self sabotage.
So whether it's like personal history you're bringing in or
the greater history of planet Earth, you have to hold it a
very certain way and it is hard,but you can't do it.
Yeah, I think the thing that helps me with that and has

(20:34):
helped me in dating, my therapist used to tell me just
like, OK, we're noting that you can observe a person over a long
longitudinal study. Like we're scientists observe a
person over a long period of time.
A long period means a few dates.It does.
I don't mean date them forever. If they suck for you, if they're

(20:54):
not a fit, they're not a fit. But like if you're not sure and
you're noticing these things andyou're like, how much of this is
me projecting my assumption of men or my assumption from my ex
or whatever? And how much of this is that
this person isn't right for me? Then if there's enough good
there, if there's enough curiosity there, you can hang
out with them again and continueto note it.

(21:15):
You're observing. That's what dating is.
It's observing and seeing if it becomes a pattern.
And if it becomes a pattern and you're not OK with it, it
becomes a lot clearer after you've seen it a few times than
on a first date making a judgement call.
So I think it's about just like noting, you know, like OK and,
and, and observing yourself too through the process.

(21:36):
Like you're observing the personyou're dating and you're
observing your tendencies, and over time it will become
clearer, you know whether that'sa problem with them, whether
it's a problem with you, whetherit's not a problem at all.
Note the patterns and just observe and let it take a little
time. You don't have to decide on date
one. Yeah, I love that.
Something that my sister used tosay to me when I was like, this

(21:58):
is actually even about Justin, like the person I love and I'm
going to marry early on. There's just so much to sort
through. And I had a lot of fucking PTSD
from an abusive relationship andit it made it really, really
difficult to date. And it made it really difficult
to trust people. And, and I would be like, well,

(22:19):
what if it's this? What if it's really that?
What if it's a conspiracy? What if he's really doing this
and he's a mastermind manipulator?
And Elizabeth was like, well, ifhe's really that like, I'm
pretty sure it's just going to reveal in time.
Like if you're worried about this thing that you're saying is
a persistent issue, like Jess was just describing, then like
you'll have a bunch more instances of it.

(22:40):
And that kind of gave me a lot of peace.
I even think about that in beingin a relationship now when I
have an urgent feeling that like, oh, I got to talk to them
about this annoying thing they always do.
Well, if they always do it, there's going to be another
opportunity to talk about it. He's going to do it again.
Or best case scenario, he never does it again.
And then we don't have to talk about it.
But like either way, I win either way.

(23:02):
Either it's done or we're going.To talk about it, it'll happen
again. So yeah, I totally agree.
It's no rush. Yeah, OK.
You want to read the next one? Yeah, little Boo.
All right, another what to do? Submitted by a dear listener,
they say. A little background.
I was in a 9 1/2 year long relationship that started when I
was 16. After that ended, I was lost and

(23:24):
had no idea who I was. He was a very abusive partner.
In the following years I've beenin a series of relationships
that all started off on a datingapp and all the relationships
sucked. They would lie, cheat,
manipulate, etcetera. But after a relationship ended I
would go back to the apps because it felt like the only
option. I've realized it is hard to meet

(23:46):
someone in a vacuum and not really know anything about them
and build a relationship with them, especially when they are
really good at lying. So after all those stinky
relationships, I've taken a stepback from dating to focus on
myself and have been calling it my sexy celibate summer.
Love it. I am 32 and now feel like I'm

(24:07):
finally getting to know myself which has been healing but
eventually I want to date again because I would like to get
married and have kids etcetera. My question is, I'm not thrilled
with the idea of using apps to meet a life partner and have had
very little experience dating overall.
How do I use apps in a focused non doom scrolly way to really

(24:28):
hone in on people that I would like to meet and not just
romanticize their potential? I have so many thoughts just on
the first sentence of that question of like, I'm not
thrilled about using the dating apps in general.

(24:51):
On one hand, I have a lot of friends who are single and on
the apps right now, and I will check my privilege and
acknowledge that it sounds like the apps have gotten even worse
than they were when I was on them 3-4 years ago.
Like they were already hard and now that everybody has a little

(25:12):
bit more ability to be out in the world.
And, you know, when I was reallyfocused on the apps, it was like
COVID, post COVID times when like we needed them a little bit
more. I feel like that's shifting.
And there's like, it definitely seems it's always been hard
there and it, it seems like it'sgetting harder.
So I want to acknowledge that I haven't been on the apps in a

(25:33):
few years. That being said, I know so many
couples, including both Carolineand I, We did a whole episode
with our partners about how we met them on the apps who have
met long term people to be in relationships with through the
apps. And I feel like there's such a
weird stigma that some people still hold onto.

(25:56):
And I'm not sure why because it's so normal now to meet on
dating apps, but there's this stigma that sticks around that
some people just don't like the idea of it.
And I think this person specifically mentioned earlier
in her note that she's had multiple relationships all
starting from the apps and they all ended up sucking.
And to that, I'm like, that's just relationships.

(26:19):
Like the way that you met somebody doesn't determine
whether that relationship is going to suck or not.
It just those happened to end upsucking.
And we can help talk about like kind of what we would look for
more or what we would look for less or how to date
intentionally on the apps. But I just wanted to start by
saying that I don't think you can blame those relationships

(26:40):
sucking on the fact that you metthem on the apps.
And I don't think it's a reason to stop looking on the apps.
I think be open in person, but be open on the apps too.
It's just another way to meet somebody you maybe otherwise
wouldn't have met. Yeah, I was going to say because
spoiler, all the people and the apps also exist in real life, in
person, it's all the same people, y'all, It's it's the

(27:03):
same people. It's the same people and.
People will be. People.
I do definitely. I do think there can be a
difference in how people treat each other early and dating on
the apps because of what the listener mentioned of being in a
vacuum. It is harder to see other people
as a whole person. It is harder to see them in

(27:23):
context or to believe that they even fucking exist outside of
the screen. And when it's harder, when it's
hard to see someone as a whole person, it is easier to treat
them badly. So I do think the early dates,
like early on getting to know each other, there is more
inconsiderate treatment of people.
I do think that happens more as opposed to when you know you're

(27:45):
going on a date because you guyswere on the same soccer team or
you have a mutual friend from work, you're a little less
likely to screw that person overand be a Dick.
That being said, if you're meeting people on the apps,
great. And the thing that I found I
really needed to do, especially coming out of relationships
where I had a negative experience, which again, is like

(28:07):
most people, it's like it, it, it, it's, it sucks until it
doesn't. You know, if I don't know anyone
who just had a string of like amazing relationships, but
they're like, it was really, really great and magical.
But I just thought, better move on.
No, like you move, you move on 'cause something goes wrong
usually. Exactly.
And I'm, but especially if you felt like you've been very

(28:28):
damaged and hurt and affected bythose relationships, there's so
much healing that needs to happen.
And one thing that I really learned, especially if you've
been in an abusive situation, ishow how it destroyed my trust in

(28:49):
myself, how it destroyed my ability to vet a situation and
vet a person's safety. It destroyed my ability to even
trust that I was being myself orsticking to my values.
Like I knew I was very well inclined to like be
indoctrinated into a two person cult all over again.

(29:10):
That's what an abusive relationship is to me.
It's a two person cult. It starts on good terms and it
starts with like clear benefits.And then suddenly these rules
start coming down and and the rules are put upon you slowly,
one at a time. Doesn't seem like that big of a
deal. You can kind of empathize with
it and then eventually the rulesget crazier and crazier, but

(29:31):
you're so deep in and you can empathize so much and you've
been through so much together that these rules, these very
strange, warped rules of how to live and how to treat each other
take over your life. And then you're more and more
isolated. So they become the only thing
you know and the only thing you remember.
And it's, it makes sense to you.It's like a cult.
It to me, it's a two person cult.
And then getting out of that, you have to like, what's the

(29:55):
word be like re indoctrinated ininto society.
And there's a big transition. And I think the biggest part for
me was learning to trust myself again, which is why it felt
really important after any single date or even like a text
conversation or whatever, a phone call with someone I was

(30:16):
considering, I would either journal or just leave a voice
memo to myself about how the person made me feel.
I'm not really, it wasn't like, I don't think he's that funny or
like, I don't know if he's this enough.
It's not really about him or her, whoever you're dating.
It's about how you felt in theirpresence.

(30:37):
And if you can get really, really, if you can like really
sharply attune yourself to noticing how people make you
feel, then a, you can totally still encounter abusive or
dangerous people. I still encounter them in
dating. But you can cut it off very
quickly. You know, it's not, it's not
about never encountering these people.

(30:58):
It's about being able to identify it, identify how they
make you feel when they make youfeel unsafe and ending it.
And then you move on to the nextthing.
And it is, it is possible to do,But I think the biggest thing is
just like practicing noting how did they make me feel, not going
and talking to my friends about it and then hearing how they
think I should feel about it. That's we're already too far

(31:20):
removed. Just just you alone before
you've talked to anyone about it.
How did it make you feel? Yeah.
And I actually think that's exactly the antidote to
romanticizing their potential too early, because that was one
of her questions. How do I make sure I don't just
romanticize their potential? And I think focusing more on
yourself and how you feel over, oh, they were charming and they

(31:45):
were funny, and they have this type of job and they have this
type of life, and they seem likethey're like this.
Less focus on them, more focus on you.
Do they like me? That's another one.
Like what do they think of me? It's more, do you like them and
how did they, how did you feel around them?
I think that's a big way to not romanticize their potential
because you're checking in with yourself as opposed to being so

(32:07):
concerned about what were they doing?
How did they show up? Because when you're focused on
like, oh, it seemed like he has a great relationship with his
mom because he like said he had a mom on the first date, then
you're already creating a narrative about this person and
you know nothing about them. You know nothing about them.
Wait, the only thing you actually know after a first date

(32:28):
is how you feel. You know some bullets about a
person and you know how you feeland bullets about a person are
nothing, but how you feel is everything.
So totally I agree. That's the thing, even on I
remember I have all my voice memos and I would do voice memos
because it's just easier for me to talk quickly and not
overthink it rather than like journaling.
But you do whatever you like. And I have the voice memos from

(32:51):
my dates with Justin. Justin has like sat and listened
to me, listened to them with me.And it was actually really like
kind of a sweet thing to do. But after our first date, I had,
you know, feelings of really liking him and being very
excited. But I was also able to notice,
OK, but I don't know him. So those are just like, that's
attraction, that's butterflies, that's infatuation.

(33:12):
It's actually not because I really know anything about him,
though. I'm interested, I'm intrigued,
I'm attracted. But me feeling excited by this
person I spent an hour and a half with is not a reflection of
them. That's a reflection of my
infatuation. And then there were some things
about him that made a, he made areally good impression.
I thought he, he made me feel really listened to.

(33:32):
He felt like he was really taking an interest.
Those things felt really unlike intentional and caring.
And then I also had moments where I reflected, I was like, I
felt really stressed. I felt really stressed at that
date and I didn't know what thatmeant yet.
I didn't know. And I just noted I felt really
stressed on the date and even inthe voice memo, I'm like, but

(33:54):
that's, that could be because this is someone who's going to
stress me out. I don't know yet.
Or it could be that like I just don't really like talking to new
people. And I find it really exhausting
and stressful. And so you don't have to know
exactly why yet. You're like just said, you're
just making, you're just taking the notes.
But it is important to take thatfirst note that like, I felt

(34:18):
stressed On this date. It felt stressful in their
presence so that later when every single date for weeks or
months you feel stressed around them or you're walking on egg
shells or whatever, you can go back to that first date and be
like, they have always made me feel this way and I knew it.
So you, it identifies it. It solidifies like what you need
to know. It's a sanity check and it

(34:39):
teaches you, it gives you that feedback that like you are able
to sense these things. Or as it was in my situation
with Justin, I was just really nervous to go on dates and that
stress really wasn't about him. And it, it didn't show up much
anymore. But either way, it's like it's
something that was true in that moment.
Yeah, That just made me think ofsomething we've talked about

(35:01):
which I firmly believe in, whichis that like people show you who
they are very quickly, very early.
Like if you're in touch with howyou feel when you're around
somebody, then you can very quickly pick up on like, huh,
that's something I'm not sure about.
And then a couple more, a coupletimes more, and the pattern

(35:24):
repeats and you can very quicklythen say like, Oh yeah, I was
right. They keep doing that.
And I really don't like that. So something like a good example
I think is going back to app dating, like how people actually
communicate on the dating app. I think dating profiles are
tough. Like it's hard to put if I just

(35:46):
think about making a dating profile for myself when I was
single, it was hard to figure out what to put on that page.
So I have a lot of empathy for men, women, anyone who their
dating profile doesn't really dothem justice.
Their pictures could be better, The prompt answers could be
better. I don't.
I didn't get too critical about a profile but it's once you

(36:06):
start communicating with them and have a chat on the app that
you can start to note things andlearn about this person a little
more and learn how you feel interacting with them.
Even before you get on a date. I still think don't take it as
law, don't take it as Bible. Go on the date and learn more if
there's enough there. But I just remember many times

(36:27):
feeling like this person is giving me a lot of compliments
and they don't know me yet. So that makes me feel kind of
weird. But I guess it's nice.
And I guess it's awkward to be on a dating app.
So whatever, I'll just go meet them and then see.
And lo and behold, like the pattern would repeat.
And after hanging out with them a couple times, I'd be like,
they're love bombing me. Like they're, they're still

(36:48):
doing this thing where they're like too obsessed with me too
fast and I don't like it. It makes me feel weird.
They don't know me at all. Like, and that showed itself
very early. If I would look back at the like
first interaction we ever had, Ineeded a little more time to
decipher it, but it always was like in the beginning, it was
there, there's another guy that that's, I was thinking of a

(37:10):
specific guy that I went on somedates with another guy.
Our problem in the couple monthsthat we dated was very much like
his communication, like he wasn't good about texting and
checking in and making a plan. And I put up with that for a
really long time even though it made me really anxious.
Like it triggered something in me I didn't like that he kind of

(37:33):
like would never really text back or make a plan for the next
time and I was always trying to get his attention.
Exactly. And finally, we dated for two
months and I ignored that completely, even though I was
anxious for that entire two months.
Like, pit of my stomach couldn'teat anything for the entire two

(37:54):
months. At the end of the day, when we
ended things, it was basically him telling me like, yeah, I
don't think I can kind of like be what you want me to be like.
I'm not a communicator in that way.
I'm not good at planning. It seems like you really want
that. Like, this isn't going to work.
He even had to be the one to tell me that.
And I thought about it and thought about our very first

(38:15):
interaction in the dating app and it was all there.
Like he was one of those where it took a really long time to
actually get a date on the calendar.
And he kind of like breadcrumbedme with his frequency of
messages. And it just was all there early
on. But I wasn't being honest with
myself about how it was making me feel.

(38:36):
And it was only in hindsight that I was able to decode that.
So I just as I started to date more I think I got better at
being like this. Makes me feel bad.
I'm going to stop now. Yeah, I do think it's really
helpful to, like you said, like not over index on their actual
profile because reading into people's profile too much, you

(38:59):
know, it's an art. It's an art, not a science.
But reading into it too much assumes that they have perfectly
represented themselves in writing, which is like not a
skill most people have to be like to be able to self reflect
and put it into words and photos.
Like that's an art. So most people probably haven't

(39:19):
accurately represented or like sufficiently represented
themselves online even with their best intentions.
So I as far as like actionable advice on the apps and time
saving, I would look at their profile, be like, do they need
to be a model for me? No, If I knew they had the best
personality, we hook, we hooked up, would I be thrilled about
it? Great.
That was my barometer for like how, how much attraction am I

(39:43):
looking for? And sometimes I'd throw an Ugo
in there anyway to just be like,you know what, let's mix it up.
Who knows, maybe he took horrible photos of himself.
Sometimes they do. I think the hottest ones don't
even have good photos of themselves because they're not
taking Instagram photos all the time.
And I'm, you know, is there something did they put effort
and intention and a little bit of thought into their profile?
Great. If we mutually match, have a

(40:05):
little bit of a conversation, a little bit of back and forth.
You vet the vibe there a little bit.
And no, you still don't know that much about them.
But it's at that point if you get to the point of like having
a short conversation, they're being present.
They seem responsive enough. They're asking, you know,
continuing the conversation enough and putting effort in.
Get off the app. I do you do not want to spend

(40:28):
weeks or even like a week talking with someone on the app.
It is a waste of your time. If you're tired of people
wasting your time, that's a waste of your time.
Because even really like non malicious people will have one
personality in texting and one personality in person.
So I think there's like basic vetting you do up top.

(40:50):
Am I mildly attracted to them? Did they put some effort in?
Are they putting effort into conversation and being timely
about it? Great.
Then go meet them in person. And it's kind of like meeting
them really for front zero for the first time.
Yeah. Yeah, and that's another thing
this person said in their note. Before we move on, she said
something about like, I feel like every time I'm having to

(41:11):
like build when I date on the apps, I feel like every time I'm
having to build from the ground up.
And it is true. Like, you don't have context on
these people the way that you have context on somebody you
went to school with. You have context on somebody
that is a friend of a friend. You even have context on
somebody you met at a bar because you've already been with
them physically in the flesh, and you go to the same bars.

(41:31):
And so that's even context. You see how they talk to the
bartender, you see how they holdthemselves when they walk.
Like, that's a lot of context. Exactly, so it is just the truth
about app dating. You're starting from Ground
Zero. If not below, you know you're
starting from a. Really.
Yeah, you're in the ground. Really.
From the ground and that's okay.All you need to do with that is
just know that and then be like,okay, so that's why maybe I need

(41:55):
to take my time a little bit more.
I really, really need to notice how I'm feeling rather than the
information I'm collecting 'cause it's not enough right
now. Like that's exactly the reason
that the type of advice we're giving around dating on the apps
and being intentional about it is very much about like, note
things. Note how you feel because you

(42:17):
are starting from baseline if not below, and you just don't
have enough to go off of. I, I think the like the reason
we talk about the apps a lot. Obviously Jess and I both mostly
dated on the apps, but it's likeif you can be good at dating on
the apps, you can also be good at dating in person.
Because going on a first date with someone that you were

(42:39):
introduced to from a mutual friend or you know from work or
you met in a bar is kind of likejumping to date #5 from the
apps. Like, I feel like it takes like
at least that many dates from the apps to get to a level of
basic understanding that you have with a person that you go
that like a friend introduces you or something.
And so app dating, yes, you're in this vacuum.

(43:01):
And if you can get good at noting how you feel doing like
the detective work of, you know,noting people's patterns, but
still staying open, but still being an advocate for yourself,
then you can do it anywhere. You can do it in person too.
And I know how many people are just isolated, like if you're
meeting people in person all thetime, then I wouldn't go on the
apps either, right? But I wasn't, and most people

(43:24):
aren't, so don't be afraid of it.
You want to read What to do #3. Yeah I do.
OK here is our next one it says hi Jess and Caroline.
I love the pod so much. Y'all are the best.
I wanted to ask for the Hot not Bothered series.
What do you think are the best things to ask on a first date to
cut through the small talk and start to really understand

(43:45):
someone? Talk.
I don't think I know. I don't think I know.
Do you know? I don't know, that's how much I
like this question. There's so much small talk.
This is what I'll say. As much as we don't want dates
and especially first dates to feel like an interview, to feel
like a job interview, they just kind of will always feel a

(44:06):
little bit like an interview. And I interview people at work,
like I interview people to work at my company all the time.
And the thing that I've realizedabout those interviews is that I
care way more about how a personis conducting themselves and
communicating and answering a question, understanding how

(44:26):
their mind works and what their mindset is and how they approach
a problem or how they think about what they do, how they
think about their life way more than like the answer to the
question, such a thing. In job interviews, I feel like
it's less about what their answer is and it's more about
how did they approach it. And I think that for me, that
applies on dates a lot. It's like I never knew what to

(44:48):
ask. It's always a little bit, you're
fumbling a little bit and it is a little bit of small talk, you
know, do you have siblings and do you like what you do?
But then it becomes like, how dothey talk about the people in
their life? How do they talk about their
job? Do they seem to have a positive
outlook on things or a growth mindset or like whatever the

(45:09):
things are that you like and arelooking for and are attracted
to, you have to start piercing that together in how they answer
the question, how they talk about themselves.
I think it's way more about thatthan like nailing what the
question is and then what's their answer gonna be?
It's not AQ. And AI feel like I also would
just instead of like forcing them to try and open up a

(45:32):
certain way, I feel like I wouldjust kick it off so, you know,
they would ask me an interview question.
Oh, you make, what do you do forwork?
You make YouTube videos. OK, yes, I can answer.
I make YouTube videos and I can tell you what it's about.
And I can tell you, you know what I did for work before that.
But I can also be like, yeah, it's been this huge transition

(45:53):
for me. Like I always felt like there
wasn't like anyone career where I really made sense or something
that I was good at. And I stumbled into this thing
and it's been this like ridiculous, like transformation
process for me. And I've stumbled into this
thing that just like captures all these aspects of my
personality. And it's, it's kind of like,

(46:14):
it's kind of feels like the feeling of like putting on
glasses when I've had the rest of my life vision impaired.
Like, do you know what I mean? That's the, that's the
transformative feeling of it. And it's like, if that's someone
who can speak and reflect and empathize, they can join you in
that. And I would say even Justin, my
fiance is very, very much like that, but he's also also very

(46:39):
slow to open up. He's, he was very reserved and
he, he actually was pretty open on our first date.
But for a lot of people, they'rejust reserved and they may even
be capable of that kind of openness.
But you create a culture on yourdate.
And so you create the, a culture, you can initiate it of
being like this is a, a date culture where we say reflective

(47:00):
and epic and transformative things that might have gone into
a journal. But like a person who thinks
this way and connect with peoplethis way, it will be an in for
them to connect with you and join you there.
So you can actually kind of kickit off, I feel like.
And and they should be able to join in if that's what you're
looking for. Yeah, I think that's a really

(47:22):
good point. Like you can set the tone and
then see if they can rise to theoccasion, set the tone of I'm
gonna be a little bit more vulnerable or I'm gonna make
this less. About an.
Interview and more about just like this is how I feel about
what I do. How about you?
Totally. I also think the point about
somebody being reserved and taking some time is a good one.

(47:43):
Like my boyfriend Ryan. I realize we always refer to
them, right? And we have to, oh, you know,
he's reserved. Well, I also just was like, I
need to say it's my boyfriend 'cause we might have new
listeners. We always just said Justin and
Ryan, yes, he's very reserved. And on our first date, I talked
for like 75% of the date, which if I asked a friend at the time,

(48:06):
what do you think of the fact that I talked for 75% of this
date, they would have been like,move on.
Like, uh, you had to do all the leading, like, no thanks.
Every like kind of basic, basic dating advice is like, is like
you need the guy to ask you a bunch of questions.
The thing is, he did ask me a bunch of questions.
He just wasn't really opening upabout himself as much.

(48:30):
But what I noticed is that he was listening to me and asking
really curious good questions. So like, even though he was a
little more reserved, he was a little quieter.
I didn't really get to know moreabout him I feel like until our
second date. He was listening and showing
that he was like interested in me and giving me the platform to

(48:51):
just talk at him for a while. Yes.
And I really keep talking. I can keep talking.
Yeah, we didn't have the podcastyet.
I was like, I need this, I need this.
Yeah. And then on our second date, you
know, he returned the favor and I listened a little more and
like it started to balance out over time.
He's just that type of person. But what I did feel was like I
felt listened to. I felt like this person was

(49:13):
curious about me. I felt like he was respectful.
I felt like he didn't make me feel stupid for talking about.
I've been on dates where I've talked 75% of the time and I
felt dumb. I left feeling like like that
was kind of like they hated thatI'm just some dumb hoe who like
talked at this guy for two hours.
What the hell. Perfect.

(49:33):
I actually didn't feel like thaton my date with him, even though
on paper that was the date. So this.
Is such a good example of why anybody who tells you a hard and
fast rule some kind of dating commandment about like this is
what they should do and this is how it should go.

(49:54):
It's just not ever true. I really can't think of of an
exception other than they shouldn't make you.
Yeah, I I think you should nevertolerate someone who makes you
feel horrible all the time. Maybe that's a hard and fast
rule, but like, other than that,there's very few people are
always going to give you their their rules.

(50:15):
And it's just not one-size-fits-all.
There's not one way. Like if people everyone
described what their relationship is like with their
best friend, some people would be like, best friends should be
5050 chatty. It should always be equally
chatty. Other people would be like, I'm
the talkative one in mine and mybest friend just listens.
Other people would be like, I never talk and my I love to just

(50:38):
listen to my friends. It's like there's not one way to
be a best friend. There's not one way to be a wife
or a husband or a partner, and there is not one way to have a
date. That's why like, even with all
the advice and experience, we are happy to share the biggest
thing, the most important thing is that you practice listening
to how someone makes you feel. How does it feel to you in that

(51:00):
specific going? Because there isn't a hard and
fast rule. I feel like some people also
really do just like they like they have their favorite
questions to ask. Like what's the most scared?
What's the most scared you've ever been?
I kind of hate those I don't like.
I hate those questions because I'm not good at thinking of
things on the spot. No, no.

(51:21):
So I would just sit there being like and then that would be
awkward for me. So I don't really love those.
I mean, I feel like I used to ask I The only thing I can
remember I would always ask was not so much like what do you do,
but more do you like what you dobecause.
It would. How do you feel about it?
How do you feel about it? It would turn the conversation

(51:42):
into like a more vulnerable likepeek into their life and into
their what they really value andthings like that over just like
the headline of I do this at this company.
I don't give a shit. Do you?
How do you feel every day? And most people don't ask them
that. It's like, oh, I'm a surgeon.
How do you find that? I bet that's a mixed bag, and it

(52:02):
always fucking is. But most people don't ask them
that. And they have feelings.
They want to tell you, of courseyou know.
Yeah. Should we do this last one?
From a listener we got Adm they said dating series input.
Oh buckle up I'm dating again for the first time out of a nine
year relationship. 29 year old woman.
Wow we got a couple of you. The last couple years of my

(52:24):
relationship was a caretaker role for him as he was in an
accident. Dating now is weird, scary, but
also very fun. I feel very connected to my 19
and 20 year old self. Finally feel like myself in
general again. We officially split ways six
months ago but we're broken up. But we were broken up six months

(52:48):
prior. I've been dating and I feel like
I'm ready for the right person if they are to come along.
I did delete dating apps becausewhat the fuck was that?
I have maybe found myself in a situation ship with someone I
really enjoy spending company with, but I couldn't see him as
a boyfriend. Maybe someday, but he's about

(53:08):
five years younger than me and I'm OK with it just being as it
is a situation ship. My best friend thinks I'm in
denial and I'm only setting myself up to be hurt, but I'm
also knowingly putting myself into this.
Me and the guy have great chemistry and conversations.
Light bullying feels like the start of a great friendship.

(53:29):
Am I wrong to want to continue this knowing?
Am I wrong to want to continue this while knowing that it's not
forever? I have opinions.
Yeah. Do you want to just go?
I know it. I know your opinion.
You know what I'm going to say if it's not the thing you want,
I'm if you're just like I want asituation ship, continue it to

(53:50):
fucking ever continue it till the sun goes down.
If you know it's not what you want, then I would say yes, you
are fooling yourself and settingyourself up to hurt to continue
it because this is what I'll say.
And I'm saying this because I did it so many times.
I did this most specifically, I learned this lesson with a guy I
was dating, dated him for about 9 months.

(54:11):
His name was not Steve. He's not Steve, who we talked
about early on in the in the podcast and was not Steve.
He was honestly pretty great in a lot of ways.
There was nothing like bad or abusive or harmful or wrong
about him, but there was something that was missing, just
as I know there's something missing with this guy or else
you would call him boyfriend material.

(54:32):
Just the fact that he's five years younger is that's not the
reason that you don't see him asa boyfriend, because people date
and marry and stay with people who are five years younger than
them all the time. So I know that's it.
I know there's more to it than the age.
There is some reason that it's actually not enough for you.
The best case scenario is that you are prolonging the time till

(54:52):
you go and actually put the timeand energy it requires to
meeting someone who checks all the boxes.
Worst case scenario, and much more likely I would say, is that
you are. Without your knowing it, you're
lowering your own standards. Even though you've told yourself
this person isn't forever by spending all your time with

(55:15):
them, it is slowly that's becoming your norm.
So whatever are the things that they're missing, this is now
becoming your norm. And the next person you date
only has to be slightly better than that in order for you to
think it's a catch. But the truth is, it sounds like
the next person should be much better than that.

(55:35):
So like when I was dating somebody who I feel like usually
the situation chip thing is likethey're fun, they're nice,
they're not a bad person. We have good banter, this light
teasing thing, cool, good sex, cool, cool, cool.
But they're like not super invested and like they don't
text that promptly, but I'm OK with it.
I'm OK with it because I'm not that into it.
And like they're not like alwayschecking in with how I'm
feeling, but like I'm OK with it.

(55:56):
I'm OK with it because like that's not what this is.
But then you forget that that's a way you should be feeling and
the next person you meet when you're trying to date seriously,
they also maybe don't check in with how you feel.
They also maybe aren't proactiveabout texting you.
They also maybe aren't like, youknow, attentive to your
messages. And it feels normal to you now

(56:18):
because you've exposed yourself to that for so long it damages
you. Don't do it.
Yeah, I agree. I my thing with when we get
these types of writings, becausewe get them a lot, is that I
don't know the truth of what youactually want right now.
So I want to be careful about not projecting the fact that I'm

(56:42):
a person who's in a long term relationship and wants that.
But she says she. Wants a relationship.
She says, oh, does she? Yeah.
I thought she said she was in a relationship.
Oh, did she say that? Yeah, she said.
I'm ready for the right. Or I did not realize that.
In that case, then I know that you're doing the wrong thing.

(57:03):
OK, I didn't hear that part or Ididn't absorb that part.
So I was thinking, all right, ifyou genuinely just got out of a
relationship and maybe you're ata place where you're not ready
for a new one. I do think being by yourself and
doing a lot of healing and beingintentional with that time and
thinking about what you do want when you do want to get back out

(57:24):
there and find somebody is a good thing to do.
At the same time, I won't judge you or tell you you're wrong for
having a situation ship just forfun just to get whatever your
sexual needs met. That could be okay if you really
only want that, but your messageis teeming with evidence that

(57:45):
that's not what you want. So I guess you literally said I
want a relationship. Yeah.
She wants the real deal, she said.
She wants the real deal. The other thing that she says is
like she describes the guy in the situation ship and she says
we have great chemistry and conversations.
She's talking about like personality, emotional

(58:05):
connection and personality match.
And to me, for a situation ship for a hookup buddy really to be
successful, you got to just get in and get out.
I have friends who like they have their roster of, you know,
the guys that they hook up with or the guy who they're hooking
up with right now. And the reason it works is
because they don't have any chemistry with them.

(58:28):
They don't have any connection with them.
They don't stay cuddling and having conversations and
bantering and flirting and and doing the light bullying and
whatever. They literally get in and get
out, and that is not what's happening here.
That's what's so messy. I feel like situation ship is
like they're getting, you know, this guy's getting all the
perks. They're getting all the perks of

(58:49):
a relationship with none of the commitment.
That's it's like you found yourself in a fucking situation.
Exactly. Yeah, that's true.
She said situation ship. She didn't say hook up buddy.
And situation ships really are the danger zone for that reason.
I also feel like if your best friend thinks you're in denial,
I, I don't want to say that somebody else knows you better
than you know you. At the same time, if your best

(59:11):
friend thinks you're in denial, I feel like she probably does
know you well enough to know that you do want something real.
And so I kind of like trust her gauge on that.
And she said it. I would say it doesn't matter
what the best friend thinks the right the listener herself told
us she is looking for the real deal yes, so you're so if you're
looking for the real deal, what are you doing What are you

(59:33):
doing? You're damaging yourself and I,
I just I think my experience is that I want to share that I also
thought that like spending time with the not real deal, like I'm
fine with it and it's not damaging to you, but I feel very
strongly actually that it is. This is what settling is because
even if you telling you're settling is not just deciding to

(59:54):
marry someone who's below your standards.
Settling is spending time with people and letting people into
your head and your heart who arebelong below your standards.
You can settle with your friendships if you expose
yourself to friendships that arebelow your standards and have
extended intimate like. Moments with them in in, you

(01:00:17):
know, a platonic way that is damaging to you.
You are setting yourself up to settle for that kind, those
kinds of relationships elsewheretoo.
That is settling. Settling is not just about who
you choose to marry. It's about who you choose to
spend your time with and give your energy to life.
Is now life is now you can be settling at any given time and

(01:00:38):
you are and and you are here. Yeah, you're, you're putting
energy somewhere. I'm so big on like where I put
my energy. It's and I think it's so
important in any relationship. What are you giving your energy
to? Are you giving it to the wrong
person or the right person? Are you giving it to a situation
that's worth it or not? Like you have to gauge this all

(01:01:00):
the time in your life. And I do think that as long as
your energy is wrapped up in this person, even if you're
like, we only see each other onenight a week or we only, you
know, we text a little, but I'm still, this is the big one, like
I'm still swiping on the apps orI'm still open to meeting
someone else. Like your energy is wrapped up
somewhere else where you don't have the capacity that you could

(01:01:22):
have. Wouldn't you want to make
yourself fully available to the potential of finding the right
person? Because you've said you want
that. Everyone agrees that dating is
hard, so you can't tell me that you are putting your full effort
into either dating or just like fulfilling yourself on your own
and taking time not dating. When you have this like easy

(01:01:44):
comfort blanket, like security blanket on call.
You can't tell me that you're doing that 'cause I know you're
not. Because who?
Who would when you've got someone to cuddle and flirt with
you and compliment you? Who would go out on a new first
date? Fucking annoying.
I wouldn't. And yeah, I think that's why you
have to cut it off. Agree, it's so crazy because

(01:02:04):
I've read this DM like 3 times and I completely glazed over the
I feel like I'm ready for the right person if if they are to
come along. Until you were like, no.
They're coming along. You're with somebody else.
They're not. They're not coming along.
Like that, they do not come along like that.
Yeah. You got to come along to them.
Yeah. It's a mutual coming along.

(01:02:26):
It's a, it's a mutual come along.
Come along, I just want to come along.
Can I like go on a tangent for asecond related to this topic?
Yeah. Since that was our last DM for
the day, I started watching thisnew dating reality show on
Netflix called Sneaky Links, which is a weird ass name for a
show. I've never heard of it.

(01:02:47):
So a sneaky link is like a newish term.
It's not that new, a couple years old about for like your
hookup buddy, basically like thethe person that you keep coming
back to that you only hook up with, you know, in the dark of
night and you don't really take them seriously as a dating
option. And so on this show, there's

(01:03:08):
like 6 people that show up at this island or whatever and they
all are new people. They don't know each other.
They think they're coming onto areality show to like date and
meet somebody for real. And then they bring in six other
people and each of those people is attached to one of the the
people currently already in there.
And is there sneaky link in the real world?

(01:03:29):
So everyone's in a house with new people that they could date,
but also with the one person that's like been their hookup
buddy for the last five years who?
OMFG. They haven't taken seriously or.
Whatever. So obviously the person who's
hooking up with them knows who that is, but they like just let.
On when they get into the house,they're like, what are you doing
here? Because they thought they were

(01:03:51):
coming on like a dating show, just a normal dating show where
they were going to meet all these new people.
And then it turns out that theirhookup buddy is in the house.
And the concept is like for themto once and for all decide if
there's anything there with thisperson or if they need to cut it
off and like meet new people whothey could also meet while on

(01:04:13):
the show. And it's really fascinating.
And it's actually kind of interesting, like a couple of
these pairs are kind of finding deeper connection than they ever
thought could exist between them'cause they had just decided
from a very early point, like we're hookup buddy buddies and
that's all we're gonna be. And they never really gave each

(01:04:34):
other a chance to have a deeper conversation or to like see if
they had kind of values in common or things that they want
in life in common. And then a lot of the other ones
are crumbling and going for other people and you know, they
there was never anything there to begin with.
But it's a very interesting concept.
I've never seen it done before and it has got me thinking about

(01:04:58):
these situationship type of people more.
Like I think if you go into that's why I kept saying like if
you go into one of these arrangements and it's purely
physical and you don't you like don't talk and you don't do
anything dating like or romanticor getting to know you like it's
kind of better and it's doable. And I've seen that work for

(01:05:19):
people, but when it's this weirdmiddle ground, you're giving
them all the benefits without getting what you want, really.
Yeah, and you, she listed the the thing I wish the listener
sent to us was like, she listed all the things that were cool
and fun and enjoyable. Personality chemistry, light

(01:05:40):
bullying. Great.
Sounds like a fucking situation,Chip, to me.
What are the things he's missing'cause it is not just his age.
I think you need to be honest about what are the things, Pete?
Listen, people date and marry people 10 and 15 years older or
younger than them all the time. So the age thing is a cop out.
I think you need to be honest with yourself.

(01:06:00):
I wish you'd been honest with usbecause I want to gossip about
it. But I think you need to at least
be honest with yourself about like, what are you really giving
up here? What is the real way you're
settling with him? Because if he was actually all
the things, him being five yearsyounger would not be the thing
that it wouldn't matter. So I think you need to be first
up is be very honest with yourself about like this is the

(01:06:23):
thing I'm giving up that I also know I really want.
And I, I'm telling myself I'm going to keep exposing myself
to, you know, this person who isn't respectful to my time or
this person who tells me they'redating other people or this
person who just isn't that response to my texts or this
person who like, they're not doing anything wrong and it's
not bad, but they do make me feel a little not considered.

(01:06:44):
And what and be honest about what that's doing to you as you
continue to expose yourself to it.
I have a hunch that the five years younger thing is code for
immaturity. I feel like I've noticed this
where especially women when talking about dating a younger
man will say will quote age and them being younger as the issue

(01:07:10):
and it's like. Men older than me are less
mature too. All listen.
All men are less mature than all.
Women that's. Just what science is?
It has nothing to do with age. But no, like it really is a cop
out. And I think that it's code for I
find him to be immature. And to me, I'm like.
And then she described the things she the only things we

(01:07:30):
know about him are great chemistry, great conversations,
light bullying. Yeah, seems a little immature to
me. Like that's all you got.
I don't know you. That's personality.
With a lot of people. Totally.
That's chemistry and personality, which is only
actually, I would say a very small part of true connection.
True connection is like character and values and

(01:07:51):
consistency. Anybody can have banter.
I can have chemistry with a fucking bartender.
I can have chemistry with the lady who checks me out at CVS.
That has nothing to do with how she's going to treat me long
term. Like you can have chemistry.
I could have chemistry with a chair, you know, and I do.
Plenty of mailman, you know. Yes, walking on by does.

(01:08:13):
I don't know anything else abouthim though.
Doesn't he? We're soul mate.
It doesn't when you'll never know because you didn't give him
a chance. True.
It is funny that the mailman is such a fucking that's why is
that such a fantasy? Isn't that like a trophic
fantasy? The shorts?
They don't wear shorts. Anymore, do they not?
The shorts. The mailman on.

(01:08:34):
No. They're all in shorts, and by on
my radar I mean I guess in the fantasy.
Is this a fantasy? Funny, I think it's because
they're bringing me things and they don't ask much of me and
I'm. Like, oh, I love that.
You're right. You know what I mean?
Yeah, I do like wait for them. If I ordered something I'm like
waiting for the mailman. I'm like.
Yeah, they're playing a hard to get it's.

(01:08:56):
Like coming on over. Just sitting around thinking
about you and. Then we did it.
This was great. We did do it y'all.
If you enjoyed this episode, we are going to have installments
at the end of every month through the summer.
There's a different theme for next month, the next episode.
So stay tuned. And if you're new here, we also

(01:09:18):
have lots of other dating episodes that were not a part of
this summer series. We also have a whole episodes on
surviving your breakup, you know, getting over breakups, all
the dating advice. We have episodes that we've
recorded with our boyfriends, fiancees, interviewed men about
their dating experience, blah, blah, blah.

(01:09:38):
We've got a lot of dating stuff.And then we also just do all
Chitty chatty fun shit. So we're happy to have you and
we're going to give you more of the the dating dirties next
month. Yeah, can't wait.
Kisses. Yeah, girl.

(01:10:00):
Girl.