126. For You: Living Proof That You Can Heal From Your Ex

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Maybe some other girl would havebeen happy with what he was able
to give, but I just wasn't. It doesn't matter what some
other girl is happy with. It doesn't matter what someone
else would accept or what is normal to someone else.
It doesn't matter that his intentions were pure and he was
doing his best. All that matters is like, does
it work for you? Hey, hey, welcome back.

(00:25):
This is not for everyone. We're a podcast hosted by your
two Big Sisters on the Internet.And by that I mean we don't have
the answers to everything and we're not right about
everything, but we're happy to try to give perspective.
We do our best. We do our.
Best, yeah. Every day, trying my best every

(00:47):
day, especially while here. I'm like slacking off in other
areas, but when when we're the camera's on, I'm ready to try,
try for the yeah, yeah. Today I feel like we got a lot
of energy around kind of full circle moments with people from
our past exes, like what it looked like to heal from past

(01:10):
relationship trauma. So let's get into it.
Do you have something to start us off with on our little for
you? I do.
I do have something to start offwith.
I actually have a bunch of things and I'm a couple
different stories. These like full circle X moments
that I think just make me feel just like moments of beauty and
that just make me feel grateful for going through all the

(01:34):
fucking bullshit, feeling all the pain, thinking you'll never
feel differently, And then eventually being on the other
end and being like, wow, I'm so grateful for all of that.
I'm so grateful I had it. I'm so grateful it's over.
I'm so grateful we're in different places now.
We want to talk about it. Love it.
All right, here we go. So first story you want a little

(01:54):
piece of. Beauty I always from you, yes.
I thought this was fun. This is something that happened
this week. So this pertains to this is
really the person I dated most seriously before Justin.

(02:15):
This we're going to return to the legend of Not Steve.
If you're a original listener tothe podcast, not his real name,
we're just going to call him NotSteve.
And he and I dated maybe for like 9 months and he was
honestly like a great guy and a nice person and smart and he did

(02:36):
put in a lot of effort in certain ways and blah blah blah.
Like there was nothing offensiveabout him.
Like this man did me no wrong. This man did me no wrong.
But there there was something obviously there was something
that was missing where I didn't feel like he was as he still

(02:57):
wasn't as invested as I wanted someone to be.
And you know, I waited it out for a while.
This is why it went on for like 9 months, because in some ways
he made a lot of effort and it didn't seem like he was trying
to fuck me over. He wasn't quite a fuck boy, but
I could just tell. Like, I don't think you're like
that, that into this thing that I want someone to be really,

(03:20):
really into. Yeah.
And the way that manifest is, I actually like met up with him to
end things. We'd been dating.
This story was so funny to me. You were like, I don't think we
ended it. I don't think we ended it.
Yeah, there, there were some language, he English is not his

(03:42):
first language. And there were some like
communication issues and I'm. But then eventually I'm.
So that was like a common thread, but then eventually I
met up with him in person to endthings because we've been dating
long enough. It wasn't going to be a text and
you know, we weren't exclusive or anything, but we'd been we'd
been seeing each other for a while.
And so I met up in person and I had like this talk with him and

(04:03):
was just like, I don't even knowwhat I said, but basically what
I said here, like I feel something is missing.
Like I don't want to be like asking more from you.
And if when when you obviously like are not really just
interested in giving that that much like whatever.
It was very amicable, but I'm something happened during this
conversation where he did not accept.

(04:26):
And we walked out of that conversation dating exclusively.
Yeah. And I was so confused.
Like it did not go the way. This was not a move.
This was not like an ultimatum. I was giving him like step up or
it's done. I was just like, it's done.
But like, truly, I wish you the best.
And then we I came out of it dating him exclusively.

(04:49):
It was so funny. It was, so it was you sent.
Me a text and I was like, you were like, so I went into it
trying to end it and I was so prepared.
But I think we're exclusive now.I'm like, that's all your text
said. Yeah, I mean that this is like
he was just like, he was just like, no, no, no, like you're
misunderstanding. Like I do like you this way,

(05:11):
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, I was, I think he
was like, I was like debating ifwe should have the conversation
about exclusivity. And I, you know, it was one of
those things where it made me second guess everything I had
felt and being like, oh, maybe I've misinterpreted his
intentions. And so I kind of went along with
it. But in in retrospect, I'm like.

(05:35):
You weren't feeling it. I just wasn't, it just wasn't
enough. You know, people can get married
and and have that level of commitment and they still don't
give you enough of them. So I was a little swayed at the
time. I think I was just so shocked
that he wanted to be exclusive that I was like second guessing
everything how I felt in the relationship, which I understand

(05:57):
but. 'Cause there's two separate
things. There's, there's how you feel
and there's, I guess how the other person feels is maybe the
simplest way to put it. But like, you felt like he
didn't like you or like he wasn't giving you the energy you
want from somebody who likes youa lot.
And then when he was like, no, Ido like you a lot.

(06:17):
You were like, oh, but that doesn't cancel out the fact that
he still wasn't giving you the energy you wanted.
Yeah, but you thought maybe it would because you're like, oh,
well, I thought that energy was coming from a place of you not
liking me. Now that I know you like me,
maybe I'm all wrong. But it's like either way, the
energy was still what it was. Totally 'cause you know.
What it? What it comes down to is like,

(06:38):
one thing is words. When someone says like, oh, I
really, you know, people you saylike believe what?
Believe people's actions, not just their words.
Words are cheap, words are free.You can say whatever the fuck
you want. You can say no, I do really care
about you, but not treat someonewith care.
You can also say no, I do reallywant to be exclusive.
And I don't think it was a manipulative thing.

(06:58):
I think he was like, this is thebest thing I've found so far.
So we should be like, I think hewas genuine, but I still had
this feeling. It just felt off.
And immediately after that, likebreakup turned into exclusivity.
We went and like got a meal and I remember sitting that it was
lunch. It was like the middle of the
day. And I remember sitting at lunch
being like, this feels so surreal and weird and almost

(07:22):
awkward and like we're exclusive.
What? And I was, I was excited, but it
also felt really weird. And I think about that moment a
lot now. Or I thought about it a lot when
Justin and I got engaged, when he proposed to me and everybody
was like, Oh my God, was the moment so wild.
What's it feel like to be engaged and thinking about that?

(07:42):
My feeling was actually like, itjust feels the same.
It feels like we were already engaged, like they didn't feel
like this crazy step up as opposed to this moment with Not
Steve where being exclusive feltlike this crazy step up that
really didn't match where we were.
And I do think it's funny to compare those two moments
because I, I think that's appropriate with the proposal
and with Justin, it's like it felt natural, It felt correct.

(08:06):
It felt like it'd been true for so long.
But with Not Steve, it felt likethis forced level up, you know?
Anyway, we did that for like maybe another month or two and I
still end up feeling the same. I still ended up feeling like a
little discarded, whatever. And then I ended it for good and
he still didn't seem to understand.

(08:27):
But like, at that point I think I just confirmed how I felt and
I really didn't need him to agree with how I felt.
I didn't need to convince him ofwhy he didn't give me like a
sufficient attention. Like I didn't need him to sign
off on it. I just felt confident enough
then yeah. And whatever.

(08:47):
But like, super nice guy. I've run in, I've run into him
on the street like once or twicesince then around DC Wish him
all the best. And I've always just kind of
been like, I guess I've always thought of it as like, you know,
he's from a country that's like where the men are usually very
reserved and it's almost a kind of macho culture.
And I kind of wondered if that'sjust how he is in relationships.

(09:08):
He's just someone who he's not going to be super vulnerable.
He's not going to open himself up.
He's not going to want to make himself vulnerable to love.
And so that's probably his limitation.
That's fine. But I'm glad that, you know, I
was able to identify. It's not the person for me.
And then. I'm so excited.
Like this month, yeah, this maybe a month or so ago and you

(09:33):
know, he and I last dated what maybe like 3 years ago and maybe
in the last month or so I saw onInstagram him like soft hard
launching a girlfriend. I think it was a hard launch and
I'm. Where I thought you were going.
And it is just, it was just so clear how obsessed he is with

(09:57):
this girl. And it was like beautiful to see
it. It really was.
It was so nice to see and like, without having seen them
together, without having seen him in forever, like you could
just tell. Like I could just tell.
I was like, oh, he really likes this girl.

(10:18):
Just the way he was posting likea whole grid of photos he'd
taken of her and like all these just really beautiful shots and
them on vacation and running a marathons together.
And like it was just so clear. This guy who also, like you
know, doesn't post on Instagram and certainly never post a photo
of me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It was just so clear. Oh my God.

(10:40):
I was like, I can I immediately,I'm guessing I'm like, he's
going to propose to her. Like this looks really good.
And it the only feeling I had about it because I'm not
yearning for this person, but itwas just so nice to see like,
oh, you, yes, this was not rightfor either of us, which I
already knew. But to see how it even appeared

(11:02):
the right thing appeared to openhim up and all my ideas of like,
oh, it's his culture. Oh, he's just too macho or oh,
he's not going to ever be vulnerable.
It was like, no, I was also the wrong person for him.
I really was. He didn't believe it.
He didn't believe it at the time.
But seeing him with this girl, even through the Internet, I can
see how it has opened him up. And it was just like, and it was

(11:25):
just so sweet to be like, yes, it wasn't right for me, but it
also wasn't right for you. And I can see how the right
thing has changed you. And I don't know, it just felt
like a beautiful little moment of the world.
I was just so happy for him. Good for you dude.
I love that that makes that's where I thought you were going
and it makes me really happy that that that is where you were
going. Because I've had similar
experiences where like I think when I was younger, I heard

(11:50):
people say things about like, you know, you'll still want the
best for them and they'll find their person.
You'll find yours. And like you'll even be able to
like if you run into them, it won't be awkward.
And if you meet their partner, like you'll be happy for them.
Like, I don't know, just this lore of like how eventually you
move on so much that like you'llbe happy for them in whatever

(12:12):
they find. And I kind of didn't believe it
when I was younger and going through breakups for the first
time and like really pining after people who weren't right
for me and who I wasn't right for.
And then I started to have similar experiences.
And likewise like and the reverse.
I've had one or two people from my past who like, like you're

(12:33):
saying, like I'm on decent termswith we don't talk all the time.
But like it didn't, it ended amicably enough.
Kind of like run into them or had an Instagram, you know,
interaction with them where theycomment on how happy I seem and
like, Congrats on your new relationship, whatever.
And same with them. And it's such an, it's such a

(12:54):
nice full circle moment That's so reassuring of like, everybody
ends up where they're supposed to end up.
And I didn't believe it until I experienced it myself, you know,
and now I'm so bought into the fact that like.
Yeah, this is a thing and it happens and it's really nice.
It's like everybody ends up withwho they should be with or a

(13:17):
situation they should be in. If you really pay attention to
how a situation makes you feel and you actually believe
yourself. Like it is funny to think on the
not Steve thing, he kind of mademe doubt myself.
I was like, should I be happier with this?
Am I asking too much? Am I overreacting?

(13:40):
And maybe some other girl would have been happy with what he was
able to give, but I just fuckingwasn't.
It doesn't matter what some other girl is happy with.
It doesn't matter what someone else would accept or what is
normal to someone else. It doesn't matter that his
intentions were pure and he was doing his best.
All that matters is like, does it work for you?
I remember going, that was advice I got from our dear

(14:00):
friend, like one of my best friends, Sheila, when I'm in a
previous relationship where I was really tortured by the
relationship. It was very painful.
It was very destructive. But I also couldn't fully paint
my ex as a monster, like he wasn't just a monster.
And I think a lot of the ways hehurt me, we're not like he

(14:23):
didn't mean to and he didn't seeit that way.
And he wasn't trying to destroy me, but the impact was the same
and it was destroying me. And I really got hung up on
trying on this idea of like, well, what if he's doing his
best, but he's doing his best. I can't be mad at him.
Like, how much can I really blame him or really be upset if

(14:44):
this is all he can give? And I was hung up on that for
like years. And Sheila at one point was
like, it really. And or, or I was also really
hung up on the idea of like, is this normal?
Is what he what he's doing? Is this normal?
Should I be OK with this? Because this is a normal thing.
And eventually she was just like, it really doesn't matter
if it's normal. It just matters if it works for

(15:06):
you. If it it doesn't, nothing else
matters. Does it work for you?
Doesn't matter if it's normal. Doesn't matter if everyone else
would be OK with it. And I'm, and just, I think, you
know, learning so slowly over time to trust like it doesn't
work for me. And and then that moment when
you, that full circle moment when you run into them and

(15:26):
they're just like happy for you or they see that you're happy,
like you said, or you can feel happy for them.
I feel like it's so beautiful because there is no other agenda
there. They don't want something from
you anymore. They're not trying to get
something ideally from you anymore.
They don't have to say anything they don't have.
To say anything so it, it feels like so extra beautiful to just

(15:47):
be like, I'm just happy for you.Yeah, I had an adjacent type of
thing happen recently. It's not exactly the same, but
it reminded me somebody from years, years, years ago who I
had really strong feelings for, and we ended up fading apart.

(16:07):
This is like 15 years ago. Reached out to me.
We haven't really talked. I mean, we've like had little
interaction since then, but it was so long ago.
And ultimately, above anything else, they were a friend.
They were like a really close friend 15 years ago who I had
strong feelings for and like, wanted more with and was really

(16:29):
tortured about it anyway, determined at the time that
like, it wasn't happening and I was just hurting myself waiting
for it to happen. And kind of we drifted apart.
And yeah, in the years since then, we've kept in touch
vaguely, but like, it's not somebody I'm close with at all.
But I also have no hard feelingsbecause it's been a really long

(16:49):
time and both of us are in different places in life and
whatever. I got a text from this person
couple weeks ago apologizing forstuff that happened 15 years
ago. Whoa.
I have not thought about it. I have not harbored negative
feelings about it. When I think about this person,

(17:10):
I only have fond memories at this point in my life.
Like I really didn't need an apology.
But for him, he felt he needed to give one.
I think to forgive himself for some of how things went down
back then. And it just kind of reminded me
we ended up having like a really, really nice catch up and

(17:32):
like happy for each other momentand proud of you for doing the
work moment. And like, I hope, you know, I've
never thought of you as a monster moment and all this type
of stuff that we had never said to each other.
Like I had kind of made peace with it myself.
I assumed he didn't think about it or had made peace with it
himself, but I guess he hadn't. And it just kind of reminded me

(17:55):
that like everybody is on their own journey and timeline.
Like I kind of wrapped my head around everything that happened
with this person and moved on from it a really long time ago.
And I'm not saying he's been thinking about it every day
since it happened, but I don't think he had like put in the
personal work and processing until more recently for whatever

(18:18):
reason. And it was just like a nice
reminder, I guess of like the impact that you have on somebody
doesn't necessarily go away, like just because it was a
really long time ago, there's still these lasting impacts and
impressions, whether good or bad.
And I don't know, I don't know what I'm trying to say.

(18:40):
It was just like a really nice, like I felt like I was like
floating on a cloud while we were talking.
And it was not a conversation I needed, thought about expected
was like manifesting. Like, I literally, if this had
never happened, I would be fine.But the fact that it did happen
was really gratifying, I guess. Yeah.

(19:04):
It's just these weird reminders of like, oh, yeah, at the time
that that meant everything to me.
If Jess 15 years ago got this apology, it would have meant
everything to her. And it still meant a lot to me.
But like, in a very different way.
Like, almost like, those were different people.
I don't even know who that was, you know, Like, I don't even

(19:25):
know them anymore, but I know they would have.
This moment would have meant a lot to them.
Yeah. It was very interesting, very
touching. Support for not for everyone
comes from better help. One of my favorite things about
Justin is that he goes to therapy.

(19:46):
We all have our struggles, our burden, our shadow.
Everybody does. And my experience with people
who don't work towards being their best self and owning their
own burden is that they often end up putting that burden on
other people even without meaning to.
They kind of say, here, you carry it.
Therapy helps you discover the best version of yourself.
It isn't just for those who've experienced major trauma.

(20:07):
It can be to learn positive coping skills, how to set
boundaries. And Better Help is an online
therapy platform that removes a lot of the obstacles that keep
people from ever getting the help they want.
It's easy to get connected with a therapist.
You can switch therapists at anytime.
You can schedule therapy whenever is convenient for you.
Talk it out with Better Help. Our listeners get 10% off their

(20:29):
first month at betterhelp.com/not for Everyone
all spelled out. That's Better Help help.com/not
for Everyone. I'm proud to say that I started
therapy when I was in college and it has changed my life
support for Not for everyone comes from SKIMS.
I have had back pain all my lifefrom scoliosis.

(20:53):
I had a 54° curve in my back. Now picture that your spine bent
at a 54° angle. That was my back from the age of
seven. I wore a back brace 18 hours a
day for 10 years and my spine ispretty straight now, but I have
tons of back pain. I could never wear bras.
That's why I'm delighted to talkabout Skims because they are the

(21:16):
only bras I'll wear. One of my favorites is the Fitz
Everybody T-shirt bra. I feel like it lets me feel and
look like a woman. It gives support, but it's the
ultimate comfort. I literally wore that bra while
I was packing and moving my whole home.
That's how comfortable it is. The placement of the straps
distributes weight so much better on my back.

(21:36):
The material of the bands are thicker, so it's better support.
It has good lift. It's just the one I swear by the
Fitz Everybody T-shirt bra. If you want to experience a new
kind of a relationship with yourbra, shop the Skims Best
intimates, including the Fitz Everybody collection and more at
skims.com and Skim stores. And if you want to support our
show, you can let them know thatwe sent you after checkout.

(21:58):
Just select Not for Everyone in the survey that follows.
We really appreciate it. Yeah, when you said you were
like, it felt like I was almost going to say like, you're on
drugs. And then you said like I was

(22:20):
floating on a cloud because thatfeeling, I feel like, what the
beautiful feeling is this, like weird glimpse of the truth of
our interconnectedness. And sometimes I only really feel
that. I mean, you feel it very
strongly when you're on like, shrooms or acid or something.
You just feel how everything's connected and we're all one

(22:42):
living Organism. The trees and the breezes and
the and the insects and like allthe people in.
Last week's episode getting highover people putting everything
here. Everybody put everything here.
Last time I got high on. I'll never forget.
I really don't do hallucinogens that much.
But one time, maybe a year or two ago, I think I took acid and

(23:04):
I was like, you guys, I can't believe I never realized that
all the different breezes are really just one wind.
They're like what? I was like, they're not separate
winds. All of the wind is connected.
And they're like, oh, you didn'tneed to be high to think that
like never. We're ignoring.

(23:25):
No, no one listen to Caroline the rest of the day.
And I was like, these winds are connected winds.
We're all connected winds, all of us.
We're all one wind and. Then every once in a while while
in sobriety, you have these moments where you get to see
like a peek of the interwoven fabric and it's it's so nice.

(23:45):
I had one of the fucking trippiest moments I had.
Like that was also with an ex where this was the long term
relationship, six year, six yearrelationship.
So in the end he broke up with me.
But a year before that, a year before we broke up, I sat him

(24:06):
down and was like, I'm so happy or no, I didn't.
I said I'm so unhappy. I can't do this anymore.
Like I'm so unhappy and we are so unhappy and I have nothing
left to give. This was a year prior and I was
like, I, I have to get out of this.
I don't think you can give me more.
And I am so miserable. And for whatever fucking reason,
on this day, we were able to have this kind of conversation

(24:29):
we'd never had before. I think we were both so sad and
beaten down that we just sat down and we had a conversation
like this and in this tone and we just talked about like what
we each should do when we break up.
I was like, you know, you'll, you should probably move back to
New York and you can do more comedy.
And there's probably more peoplewho have shared interest there

(24:51):
that you could date. And I would probably move back
to DCI, would move in with my parents.
I would try to get a coding job there, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah. And it was this rare moment
where we were able to advocate for the other person and say,
like, what would serve them bestwithout taking it personally?
So if on any other fucking day of this six year relationship,

(25:13):
he talked about how he really should move to New York and he
really should move away and he should really, like, find this
kind of person, of course, I would take it also personally.
And if I, you know, there were alot of jealousy issues on his
end. If I had ever said I need to do
this, this, this for me, it would have been so upsetting to
him. But then there was this weird

(25:33):
fucking glitch in the fabric of our life where we were able to
sit and just say, this is what would serve you really well.
And we didn't take anything personally.
And we just like affirmed each other and just like talked
through our plan and I'm. And then, of course, we felt so
bonded and close after that. I still wanted to break up, but

(25:56):
we, like, didn't talk about it for a couple more days.
And I brought it up to him. And I was like, we need to
finish that conversation about us moving out and breaking up.
And by then he was like, oh, I thought we just were gonna skid
past it. He was like, I just thought we
were never gonna talk about thatagain.
Like, we felt so good after that.
And I don't know why. I was just like, oh, OK, I'm
still pretty unhappy. But then we just dated.

(26:17):
For another. Year just stayed for another
year and then a year later that's exactly what we did Yep
the exact plane we talked about was exactly what happened.
I moved home, I moved in with myparents, I got a coding job
there, blah blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I'm it was I think about that moment all the time because
we weren't people who like oftenhad we just like couldn't

(26:40):
fucking I don't know. It obviously didn't work.
We. We have a healthy conversation.
We. Could not have healthy conflict
or healthy discourse or this shit.
It was so hard. And then this one moment for
like an hour, we both just endedup in this spot by accident.
And it was this crazy feeling. Yeah.

(27:02):
To be able to just see what's best for the other person
without thinking about how it affects you.
And, well, what does that mean for me?
And blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
It reminds me of my breakup withmy ex of six years who like we
broke up kind of long distance. I had moved to Chicago and we
were trying to make it work. And he kind of ended up not

(27:26):
ghosting, but like really fadingaway and giving me less
communication and less contact once I got out here.
And then eventually it came to ahead where he said he wanted to
break up and it was over the phone.
And it was a really long relationship.
And I really didn't, I wasn't satisfied with that ending.
And, you know, my mom was like, fly home.

(27:48):
You know, you can stay at home and you can like get the
conversation that you want to have with him.
So I did that and I went there and we talked in person.
And at this point, it was decided that we're breaking up
and it was more like, can we just talk about what just
happened over the last few months?
Like I just. Yeah, wow.
Answers, I guess. And it was the first time

(28:11):
probably in that relationship too, that we could have a
healthy dialogue about like, what we were each feeling and
what was really happening and the reasons for it and what
would be better for each of us. And it was only possible after
breaking up, I think. I mean, I had tried to have so
many of those types of conversations with him over the

(28:32):
years. And he pushed it off, pushed it
off, like did not want to sit down and be kind of serious with
me and like, honest with me. And, you know, that's not to put
all the blame on him. Like, our dynamic obviously
didn't work. And I just, I think about that
moment a lot of like, wow, the most honest conversation I had

(28:56):
with this person who I spent half of my 20s with was when we
broke up that we could really, like, look each other in the eye
and say what's been going on? And I left it feeling, I mean, I
was very sad, but I felt kind oflike this resolve of like, OK,
like, although part of it too, Iremember feeling which

(29:20):
complicated. It was like, I finally saw him
show up in this way and I was like, he does have it in him.
Like, fuck, like we just broke up and now he's able to sit down
and have a conversation like that with me.
He does have it in him. Like almost the delusional hope
that you get after a breakup where you're like, well, maybe

(29:40):
actually it could be different now that we've done all that
talking. So it was both.
It was like resolve about the decision that had been made and
I got my answers and I can move forward.
And also in the weaker moments in the next couple of months,
thinking about it and being like, now he's like this healed,
healthy person who can communicate all the sudden and I

(30:01):
don't get to be with that version of him.
But you know, I doubt that that's how that panned out.
That was just that one, that onehour glitch in the matrix that
we were talking about. I mean, I basically went and
lived the alternate reality of you guys.
You guys had that conversation and then you stepped away.
He and I had that conversation and then stayed in it.

(30:21):
And I can tell you like I think we all are.
I think the, the way I think about it now is like, I think we
all are capable of having that conversation.
It's not like some people never could.
I I think that's probably prettyrare, but it is so different to
be able to do something in a bubble as opposed to being able

(30:42):
to do it day in and day out withvulnerability, with stakes, with
your heart thrown in there and routinely show up that way.
Like they are totally different things.
It's kind of like, you know, I don't know, anybody can be funny
alone in their friend group. Like we all have a great sense
of humor somewhere in us. Not everybody can go upstage and

(31:04):
be a comedian. It's like they're they look like
the same thing, but they're actually completely different to
put into practice. And that is I completely
understand that moment of like it fucking with you because
obviously it did with me severaltimes with several people.
But I also, I kind of want to say this is my belief for anyone

(31:24):
who's out there and like it's fucking with them with their ex
now, like, oh, but but they could.
That's, that's the potential thinking.
That's the potential thinking. And like, no, you weren't dating
someone who had no capacity for honesty or no capacity for
reflection. But that's not really what
you're looking for. You're looking for capacity, for
honesty and reflection while you're in the fucking war of it

(31:48):
all, while you're in the battle of hearts and vulnerability and
conflicting needs. Like they're two very different
things. So I just, I firmly, you know, I
think that's potential dreaming,you know what I mean?
It totally is. We got Adm actually.
That's very relevant here. We're talking about these long

(32:10):
term relationships and specifically with yours, how you
broke up a few times. OK so this person wrote wrote
in. I was just listening to an older
episode and in passing Caroline mentioned she had a boyfriend
who was constantly breaking up with her.
I recently got out of a three-year relationship where he
was doing the same, the first time being about two months into

(32:30):
meeting each other. The next day I thought we were
over and was preparing myself toget over him, but he called me
and acted like everything was fine.
This went on for three years andit gave me tremendous anxiety on
levels I've never experienced. I'm wondering if you'd be
willing to speak speak more on this.
I found that I struggle with feeling secure.
I already did a little when I entered this relationship and

(32:51):
his breakup addiction made it about 1000 times worse.
Honestly, the thought of even getting into another
relationship scares me sometimesbecause I'll never have so much
anxiety. Oh because I know I'll have so
much anxiety every step of the way.
I feel like I'll always have fear about someone leaving or
dragging me through this kind ofroller coaster, and that fear
will potentially ruin good things.

(33:12):
My family tells me the right manwill be patient with me, but I'm
not sure even I would want to stick around and deal with such
fear and insecurity. I'd like to know if you have any
tips for recovering from the offagain on again anxiety and
trauma. Do you feel it in your current
relationship, even with a man who has been patient, or has it
really? Have you really been able to
heal from it? Oh my fucking God, it's like she

(33:34):
just read my biography. Yeah.
Oh my God. That's why I saved this one.
Wow. I'm I don't even know where to
start. Right.
Short answer, yes, it's trauma. Yes it is really bad for you, it
is really damaging. Yes, you will probably have a

(33:55):
lot to heal through, especially when you date someone new.
And yes, it is possible to hear heal through it.
That's the short answer. I'm, I, I mean, I think a very
appropriate analogy is like, sayyou have a parent, maybe a dad

(34:16):
who is like, when they're home with you, they're like a really
great dad. And they play games and they
come to the soccer games and they do this and this, but they
also peace out and decide they don't want to have a family
anymore. Like once a year.
It doesn't fucking matter how good a dad he is, when he's
home, this thing is obliterated.That is insane damage.

(34:39):
Honestly, the fact that he's like a quote, good fun or
endearing father when he's home is almost fucks with you more
because it would be easier to write someone off completely.
It would be easier to protect yourself if you could just
compartmentalize them as a monster.
But the fact that they are maybegreat in all these other ways,

(35:00):
or great when they decide to be present or great when they
decide to be by your side, it tome just means you are much more
likely to put up with the bullshit for longer.
If they're if they leave all thetime, but they're also horrible
when they're with you, you're probably not going to put up
with it that long. But when it's that mix, it's

(35:20):
like an amazing recipe to encourage you to subject
yourself to it long term. And it is incredibly damaging.
I'm, I think I already had plenty of trauma.
And yeah, I do hate using that word, but it applies to lots and
lots of people. And I think we all have our own
trauma. That's basically what childhood
is for. And I'm and this was a new one.

(35:45):
It it, it was, it was horrible. Like I, I had full on PTSD from
it, that and a bunch of other things that happened.
But I'm, you know, eventually, Imean, it made me like a rattled
mess while we were together and I'm, and then once we finally

(36:08):
broke up, I actually had peace. That's why the breakup to me was
almost like there was sadness there, but I actually felt
peaceful for the first time in many years and started living
as, you know, a single person, restarted my life, moved to DC
and I was so fucking well. Like I wasn't happy every day,
but I was just well, and I was grounded because I could trust

(36:31):
what was going to happen. I could trust that things were
in my control. If something bad happened, it
was on me. It was up to me to fix it.
It wasn't someone else holding my fate in their hands.
And and I became a really happy person actually.
And being single was like, I just had a great life.
And then once I started, once I got into a committed

(36:51):
relationship again, it my, I, I felt insane in a way that I had
never felt in my life ever. And it, it was wild how rattled
I was. I started having these panic
attacks for the first time in mylife ever.
Like absolute panic attacks multiple times a day.

(37:12):
It was so painful trying to trust someone new and open
myself up to the fact that like,I don't control everything
anymore. I am giving my heart to someone
and they're holding it a bit andI don't get to control what they
do with it. It was so terrifying that
multiple times I tried to end the relationship with Justin

(37:32):
because I was like, it's not worth it.
I am so I'm in hell. Like I was in hell and.
A hell of your own creation that's only in your.
Yeah. Around you, Yeah, yeah.
He's like, I'm not in the same. I'm not experiencing that.
Not at all. He was, you know, kind of
confused by it. But of course, yes, he was a

(37:53):
really patient person, a really caring person.
So we talked through it a bunch.And that was really great that
he was someone who had the capacity to kind of explore this
with me. And, you know, I would, I would
talk to my, my mom and my sisters about it.
And, you know, they would alwaysjoke like, why are you so crazy?
You're literally so crazy. And that is how I felt.

(38:16):
And, you know, with time, I cameto understand this is not a
crazy reaction. This is the most sensical
reaction based on what I've beenthrough.
This is the only, this is the only reaction that actually
makes sense. And I'm so like, there were a
bunch of different benchmarks where Justin and I were working
through this in our first year of dating and we talked about it

(38:38):
a lot. And I was pretty open with like,
this is what I'm healing through.
I think I ended up talking to him about my past relationship
more than I thought was normal or more than I thought you
should. But it felt so relevant.
It was such a huge thing hangingover me.
I had to talk to him about it and not and I, you know, would

(39:02):
clarify like this is not me pining for this other person.
This is me. Like this is a huge monster in
my life that I'm working throughand I need you to know where
it's coming from. And even with the communication,
eventually I had to get professional help because I was
destroying our relationship. I was so paranoid, I was so

(39:23):
insecure. I could not accept that this
person would stay with me. And that's when I got back into
individual therapy. And then we also went, that's
when we started for couples therapy because I could, I could
not live. And I was absolutely going to
run our relationship into the ground.
And Justin even had like a come to Jesus moment with me and he

(39:43):
was so upset. I'll never forget his face,
seeing how upset he was, where he was like this, this actually
is going to destroy us and it's going to be really, really sad
if it does. And I like I would think about
his face and how sad he looked when he kind of had that very
needed but very tough conversation with me and I'm.

(40:05):
It's like your motivator. Like totally.
He sees it too. He sees that I could end this.
Not just me in my head thinking I could end this.
So it's real and I have to do something about it.
It's real. And we, I think individual
therapy as well as couples therapy, you need both.
It's not just one. Like I have my part, but then

(40:27):
the couple's part is not that Justin owns this thing at all.
It's mine to own. But what we can do to
communicate through it, what things trigger, what things we
should tolerate, how we both take breaks and don't lose our
sanity. And I'm, I mean, I still go to
individual therapy, but even within like maybe 6 sessions of

(40:50):
couples therapy plus so much work I was doing on my own, the
couples therapist was like, you guys are good.
I don't like come if you want, but we're, you're good.
And that's how we feel too. We still go because it's nice to
have on the calendar. But all that to say, like it was
terrifying, horrifying. And I'm and the fact that we

(41:13):
were able to grow through it andwe are very much on the other
side of it now is insane. I didn't even think I believed
it was possible. I didn't think it was possible.
Yeah, it was. It was so intense and it was so
confusing, like the fear I felt non-stop that it made me wonder.
I was like, oh, are these signs I'm getting about Justin right?

(41:36):
Is this my body telling me Justin, I can't trust myself
with him? And once you've been hurt so
much, like all. All I wanted to do was to be
able to protect myself. And then here I was feeling
terrified with someone all the time.
And then other people are telling me to ignore that
feeling. Excuse me?
It just felt like I do not know what to believe.

(41:58):
It's like, so once on one hand I'm like OK, maybe I'm making
this up, these fears are a past relationship I'm dealing with.
Or on the another hand, maybe I'm with someone who makes me
feel so afraid and I'm ignoring myself again.
How dare I? And it it, it just felt
impossible to sort through and Ireally needed professional help

(42:19):
to sort through it. And that feels so far behind us
now. It's like a miracle.
It really is possible to grow through, but I think you really
have to own it, take it very seriously.
Find the person like Justin all at once was able to.
He had the capacity and the space and the energy to be with

(42:43):
me through a lot of it. And he also had his limits,
which actually him setting his boundaries was really important,
really important. I think it really woke me up,
yeah. I relate to so much of that, So
much of that. I was not in a relationship
where we broke up on and off allthe time, but I was in a

(43:04):
relationship that felt really unstable and like.
We were on the brink of that so many ways.
Totally. Like we can't trust that.
Technically we're together for the whole 5-6 years, but were we
stable and healthy? And like not was I not in a fear
state that whole time? No, I was 100% in a fear state

(43:25):
that. Whole time.
And I relate to, you know, once it was clear this is done, we're
not looking back. Obviously having to process
through that breakup, but then also feeling free, feeling
myself again, like feeling happy, being single and then
meeting Ryan. I was dating, dating was anxiety

(43:46):
ridden like for the same reasons.
And then meeting Ryan, I had been through so many different,
you know, a long term relationship and lots of short
term relationships that all triggered this anxiety in me and
all triggered this feeling of like I need to hold on to them
and I'm going to lose them. They're going to leave at any
second. I got to hold tighter.

(44:07):
Like that was my mindset or justmy tendency, my habit that I had
formed in dating and meeting Ryan.
Finally, something had clicked after a number of those short
term relationships and lots of therapy conversations where I
was like, I need to move slower.I think I need to like not bank

(44:28):
on this person from the first date.
I need to not sleep with him right away.
I need to not like extend our first, second, third date for 10
hours each time and go back to his place.
Like I just need to move slower.I think that's the only way I
can like maintain an equilibriumwhile dating somebody new who I

(44:49):
like because I've seen myself date somebody new who I like
time and time again. And I just like, I want to get
deep so fast. I want to get into, I want to
like build intimacy to hold on to them as fast as possible.
That was my tendency. And I, I just realized it was
breaking me and I was like, I can't do the same thing.
And then I feel like I overcorrected and I went like

(45:12):
really slow. And there's nothing wrong with
going slow. I mean, I actually credit a lot
of like the strong foundation that our relationship has with
the fact that both of us were very slow moving and gradual at
the beginning. But at the same time, it got to
the point where, like, we were dating for multiple months.
My friends are like, he's your boyfriend.
Why aren't you calling him your boyfriend?

(45:33):
Like, I was hesitant to like, label it.
I was hesitant to believe it. Like our first Valentine's Day,
we hadn't had the labeling conversation yet and we had this
like miscommunication about the day because I think Ryan thought
of me as his girlfriend and wanted to do something nice for
me for Valentine's Day. And I didn't want to expect

(45:54):
anything and didn't want to think like this guy could
possibly want to do something nice for me on this day.
And I kind of ruined. Myself.
Yeah. Protecting yourself.
Protecting myself and ending up ruining the fact that this guy
did want to do that for me and he did want to be the person who
could be there for me and be sweet with me.
And anyway, slowly but surely over those several months, like

(46:16):
at the beginning of our relationship, I think I brought
those walls down, but I don't know.
I guess I can't figure out if mytip is to move slow or not.
I don't think there's a tip actually here.
I think it's just me saying thatlike the relationship trauma
that I had been through caused me to overcorrect so many times

(46:37):
in like all directions and I just didn't know how do I even
want to approach a relationship and what am I like I just didn't
know what to be looking for. I had this sweet person right in
front of me and I like didn't trust it.
And it took a long, long time for me to start trusting it.

(46:57):
And lots of conversations with him and exact like what you said
about talking about your ex because the context felt very
important and relevant, but alsonot wanting to like do too much
talking about the X because people say don't do too much of
that. But it's like, this is me.
This is like the reason for the way I'm showing up that this guy

(47:19):
is seeing. I mean, to be clear, it wasn't
like, it wasn't like first monthI was talking about him that
much. It was when we were like in a
serious relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Same. Yeah.
And and it was like gradual. It was like for me, it was kind
of spoon fed like today we'll talk about this part of it in a
month, we'll talk about this part of it that was worse.

(47:40):
Like in a month after that, we'll talk about this part of it
that was worse because it was also based on like how much I
felt I could trust Ryan with that or how much I could trust
that his reaction to it would besafe and open and secure.
Anyway, I just really relate andI think it just takes so much

(48:01):
time. Patients on the part of your
partner, but also patients on the part of yourself, like not
rushing into something and feeling it out and seeing can
they handle this? Can they handle a little more?
Can they handle a little more? It's not like you're testing
them, but it's like you're in such a fragile place that you
need to, at least for me, I needed to like really be gradual

(48:26):
and patient with myself about like it's OK if on state one or
month one. I'm not like ready to marry this
person because like I'm recovering from so much and I
can't, I couldn't recover from it without being in a serious
relationship, like being single.I don't think you can do all of
the processing that's required to get over that type of

(48:49):
relationship trauma because you're not put into the
situation. Of vulnerability.
Yes, where it that that trigger comes up, you have to be
triggered in order to be like OK, I'm being triggered now.
I now I got to work through it and that only comes when you are
in a relationship. Yeah, And I think like, even

(49:09):
just knowing that now, I just, I, I was so caught off guard by
that part that it freaked me out.
And I was like, well, I was so happy when I was single.
The fact that I'm like freaking out now with this guy Justin,
can't be a good sign. But it actually makes all the
sense because you're you're, you're being vulnerable for the
first time again, living as a single person and not putting

(49:29):
your trust in someone doesn't ask that much vulnerability of
you, especially not the vulnerability of a relationship.
So it is, yeah, it makes complete sense that it will come
up then. And to this listener, I think
like even just knowing that, like, yes, that may happen for
you. It might bring up new things for
you. And like, yes, there could be
things to work through that. That alone, I hope, helps quell

(49:51):
some of the anxiety because there was like, there's the
anxiety and then there was like the anxiety of me judging the
anxiety. And what does the anxiety mean?
And what does it mean about Justin?
What does it mean about this relationship?
And I was just caught off guard by all of it.
And it's funny hearing you describe your reaction to an
unstable relationship as well asmy reaction.

(50:13):
We both actually became very avoidant, very avoidant,
self-sufficient. I do not want to make myself
vulnerable to other people. It's like in that relationship,
I was so anxious and I never want to feel that way again.
So now instead of being anxious,I'm going to be super avoidant
and keep everything at arm's length is the irony.
And it's a protective measure. And I'm, and I think that

(50:36):
avoidance, I realized was that Iwas determined to eliminate any
risk. I want to eliminate all chance
of risk. I am going to protect myself so
furiously that I will never, ever be hurt again.
And a very nice reaction to haveto want to protect yourself.

(50:58):
And also eventually I had to realize that you don't get to
eliminate all risk in dating. And I think that's the part like
when you talk about, I think forme, the actionable part,
whatever speed you go, you go at, or whatever your approach
is, I think eventually I had to realize, like, there's risk no
matter what either I can, you know, like, yes, I'm trusting a

(51:25):
new person. I'm choosing to slowly, in small
doses, a step at a time, make myself vulnerable to the chance
that I could be heartbroken or Icould get hurt.
You get hurt in dating all the time.
I'm opening myself up to that risk, yes, or I'm subjecting
myself to the risk that I will never let any good man treat me

(51:46):
well because I'm never going to fucking let him in.
And that was the risk I eventually identified was like,
I don't want like this thing with Justin may end.
He may not end up being the one that is a risk.
I don't fucking know him yet, but there's nothing he's doing.
Like so far. He's just a kind person who's
being patient with me and I don't know that much more about
him. And it is also a risk to never

(52:09):
fucking explore something good because I'm so afraid of getting
hurt. That's also a big fucking risk.
So it's like there are risks on both sides and I eventually was
like, I would rather take a riskand open myself up to both love
and the risk of hurt rather thanshutting myself away so hard

(52:30):
that I never get a have either. That's the way I'm going to feel
really stupid at the end of this.
Yeah, It's funny. There was a moment early in our
relationship when Ryan asked me pretty much a leading question
where he was like, do you think that you have commitment issues?
And I was like, it was so shocking to hear because all I

(52:55):
have wanted, all that I had beenwanting while dating and looking
for my person was commitment, was somebody who would commit to
me. So my initial instinct was like,
no, I want commitment. That's like why I'm fucking
here, what are you talking about?
But I sat with it and thought about it, 'cause I'm like, why
would he ask me that? I think it's so obvious that
this is all I want. And I realized like damn, I

(53:19):
think I do. And I think it's because I was
so committed in the wrong relationship for so long when I
was younger. And so even though I wanted the
right relationship and I wanted something long term and serious
that I could count on, I also had seen myself be committed to
the wrong thing. And like my bodily reaction and

(53:40):
instinct had become don't commit, don't commit, push away,
push away. And it's just funny because
like, once we became ourselves with each other and really got
to know each other more, in the traditional like schema, Ryan is
the more avoidant type and I'm the more anxious type.
And you would typically label itas like, the avoidant is the one

(54:02):
who might have commitment issuesand the anxious is the one who's
like holding on tighter and tighter and tighter.
But at the beginning of our relationship, I think it was
flipped. Like he was, I mean, he wasn't
even avoiding. He was just secure.
He was just steadily there. And I was like bouncing between
like on either side. I was avoidant one day, like not
wanting to label it, not wantingto, not wanting to like, get my

(54:26):
hopes up, I guess. And then a different day, like
feeling really anxious and triggered and I just bounced all
around him while he was sitting in the middle.
But yeah. I think about it.
All the time, right? I think about all the time him
asking me do you have commitmentissues, 'cause it was so I like,
couldn't believe the question and then I couldn't believe the

(54:47):
answer. Yeah, it was, yes, but it was
exactly. But it's exactly.
What you were doing and I yeah, I totally agree.
Like, you know, I've, I've struggled with being very
anxious, being very avoided, whatever.
And I'm, I've heard so there's, there's kind of like AI think a
misunderstanding about avoidant attachment that it's, it's

(55:09):
people who don't want closeness,but that's not accurate.
Avoidant people or being a person in a moment of avoidance
doesn't mean you don't want closeness.
It's that the price of having closeness doesn't feel worth it,
like the price of vulnerable ability, the price of opening
yourself up to risk doesn't feelwanted.

(55:31):
But they want closeness, as did you.
But the price just seemed unbearable to you.
Same for me. That's when I would literally
say to Justin, like it. I don't even know if it's worth
it to me. And that was a crazy moment
because that is something my ex used to say to me and I didn't
fucking understand it. He was like, yeah, of course I
love you, but like, it's just not worth it.
And he was avoidant. He, you know, had had his own

(55:54):
unstable history that made so itwas not worth trusting people.
It was not worth opening up to people in that way.
And he would literally say that to me all the time.
It's just not worth the pain. And I, like, didn't fucking
understand what the fuck are yousaying?
And then years later, here I wassaying and feeling that myself.

(56:15):
And then that became a full circle moment where I realized,
of course, this is how the universe works.
I had found myself embodying theposition of my ex.
I had found myself in so much pain and so much fear of being
hurt that I wanted to just bail on this good thing I had in
front of me. And then the beautiful healing

(56:37):
part was that in seeing it through, in being determined to
work on it and having a partner who'd work on it with me, I was
able to show that like, there's a different way to work through
this fear than my ex did it. Than what he did.
There is He never sought help. He never was.
He never owned what he was struggling with.

(56:58):
He didn't openly communicate, didn't dig deep on the things.
It was just like, I'm just goingto avoid.
I'm just going to avoid. I'm just going to bail.
And it was, it actually ended upbeing this hugely healing
process, of course, to be able to have a healthier relationship
with Justin, but also it gave mesuch a different kind of

(57:20):
compassion for the me that went through that old relationship.
Because when I was dating my ex,I, I still spend all this time
just empathizing for him. I was like, oh, this is really
hard for you. I believe that this must be
really painful for you. I believe that you're really
tortured. Otherwise why would you do these
things? You must be in so much pain and
this is how things must be. They have to be for you.

(57:41):
This is all you can give. And then years later, I found
myself embodying that position and discovered that there is
another way to do things. And it gave me this whole other
level of compassion for my previous self being like, you
don't have to treat people that way.
You don't have to subject peopleto this kind of pain.
You don't have to put someone through chronic breakups and

(58:01):
damage them. Like that's not the only path.
There's another path to choose and I'm going to fucking choose
it if it's the last thing I do. And then and it got me somewhere
great. And so even just that process
was like healing for previous Caroline, kind of.
Yeah, I've felt the same way before.
It's so interesting. I even, you know, in a small way

(58:22):
a couple months after my ex and I broke up and we had that big
conversation that I talked aboutearlier.
We, I think somehow he texted me.
Maybe he, I don't remember. There was like a reason,
logistically, I think, that he texted me about something a
couple months after we broke up and it turned into, hey, do you

(58:42):
want to chat on the phone? We had a quick conversation for
the first time. And I remember telling him I was
so immersed at that time in likeestablishing my life in Chicago,
figuring out what I like to do as a single person, making new
friends. I was so busy and like fulfilled

(59:03):
but tired and still emotionally processing, but I was just like,
I don't know, life was full. And one of the problems towards
the end of our relationship or really our whole relationship
was I didn't feel he had time for me or made time for me.
And some of it was work, some ofit was prioritizing friends over
me when he wasn't working. It was a mix of things.

(59:25):
But I remember telling him on this phone call like, oh, I've
been thinking about you because I'm now feeling so busy with
work and friends and like all these things.
And I kind of understand where you were coming from with like
not having space for me or something.
Like I feel like I have space for nothing but myself right

(59:47):
now. And he kind of like chuckled,
like, I don't know, it was a weird thing to say.
And I still think about saying it because I think I was giving
him too much credit. He still should have made time
for me in our relationship. But at the time I remember
feeling this like in the processing of my breakup, like
this weird compassion for this person and even the the thing
that was problematic for me in our relationship because I was

(01:00:12):
starting. To prioritize myself again.
And he had always been prioritizing himself and I was
like, oh, OK, this actually feels good.
I get it. So basically I just, I really,
it's really those moments of full circle like embodying what
the other person was doing, whether good or bad or just just
something different from you are.

(01:00:34):
So these are the high moments. These are the moments of like,
whoa, I'm, I'm in something elseright now.
My face on your face. I can't believe you remember.
Oh. My God, face on my face, and we
said at the same time, face on my say.
The same time our faces are on each other.
Whoa, I can't breathe. Should I let me?

(01:00:58):
Should I say anything more? Should I explain this to new
listeners? Or it doesn't matter?
It doesn't matter. I don't think it matters.
I don't think it matters. I don't think I don't think it
matters. Okay, tell me something silly.
First of all, I just would like to highlight that this was the
little ditty. The ditty about like an ex.
Yes, it was. Finding Love was just our
opening intro ditty I was going to share and here we are.
Turned into a later episode. Let me find something dumb.

(01:01:21):
Yeah, we need something stupid. We need something stupid to
throw in there. OK.
OK. We got a message from a kook
from a listener who I who just made me feel so seen.
She wrote. Where did all the frozen yogurt
places go and why does nobody care With like 10X10 exclamation
and question marks. Listen, I care.

(01:01:44):
Her name was Kelly Kelly. I care.
And today we're talking about it.
I love frozen yogurt. Sometimes I just get like, I'm
sitting on the couch at 8:00 PM.It's usually 8:00 PM, which is
tough because frozen yogurt places close at like 9, you
know, latest. And I'm like, oh, I really want
frozen yogurt. And then there's nowhere nearby

(01:02:05):
and they used to be everywhere and I love.
Brew Yeah, right. It was a big trend.
It was a it. Was a big like 20 tens.
You know what? They fucking are opening now.
You know what I think took its place?
The like vegan ice cream. No smoke shops.
I'm not kidding. Because I feel like, I feel like
the trend, the trend was with the business owners, like this

(01:02:27):
is an easy business to open. It's got mass appeal.
It's not that complicated with ingredients and ordering.
It's not the complications of a bar or a restaurant or this or
that. It's just like an easy, anyone
can kind of open a frozen yogurtshop and there's going to be
people in the neighborhood who will like and blah, blah, blah.
And I don't know what happened, I don't know what happened to

(01:02:47):
them all, but I feel like now people just open smoke shops.
Like marijuana, like selling weed and stuff like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, or whatever they're
called. What are they called?
Like vape shops? Dispensaries.
Dispense, yeah. Any of those cause vape shops
are different yes but I know what you mean.
I feel like that's what the young entrepreneur I was gonna
say. I was gonna entrepreneurizing.

(01:03:09):
What is the fucking word? Enterprising.
Enterprising, OH. The young enterprising folk are
doing now. Sure.
I think what happened, to be honest, is COVID because frozen
yogurt places you're like scooping up all the toppings
from the same like pen, whateveryou call that pen of stuff.

(01:03:33):
And I think that might have beenthe kicker.
So they're really hard to find now and I love them.
Oh my God I just googled what? Where did all the froyo go?
And there's an article on refinery 29 it says where did
all the froyo go? A very serious investigation.
I wonder if they have. OK first we have to read 4

(01:03:53):
paragraphs about how they love froyo.
Yes we fucking know. OK, so basically there were too
many froyos and there's too muchcompetition.
OK. This one owner says.
I remember when I was in high school in the early 80s, froyo
was a big thing and then it dieddown and it was all these ice

(01:04:14):
cream spots. Every 10 years it pops up and
it's a trend again and then it dies down.
That's so funny. Oh, the International Frozen
Yogurt Association interesting reported that 7 new froyo stores
opened in the US in January 2022.
Sadly 4 older stores closed at that time.

(01:04:34):
Only 7 and 4 closed. Wow.
Yeah, it's just a trend. It's just a recurring trend.
That's fascinating. Wow, that is, I wonder what are
the like socioeconomic, socio political, environmental factors
that influence that trend? Like is it at times when people

(01:04:55):
are doing well or people are notdoing well?
Because also it makes me think of the show The Good Place where
in hell there's Froyo? There's not ice cream parlors,
but. There's.
Froyo. It's just like a little bit less
good on all fronts. Even though I actually, I mean,
I love froyo. Oh my God, the tart.

(01:05:16):
I know the tart. That's what I'm thinking about
too. I just want tart.
I don't ever want tarts, I just get.
Tart. Yeah, I just want tart, yo.
Do you remember when we were growing up and Sweet Green
opened in Bethesda it? Was and they had the best tart
froyo and they don't even. And they don't have it anymore.
That was the thing I liked. Now they're just fucking salads.

(01:05:37):
Agree you people. Probably don't even know that
Sweet Green used to have froyo, it was so good.
It was only in the DC area whereit first opened.
It was so good. They had froyo and then once
they expanded to other places they took it away.
It was so. Good.
It was so, and it was just the tart froyo.
There were no other flavors. There wasn't Oreo sprinkles.
And the and the toppings were simple.

(01:05:58):
It was like I remember that. And coconut and granola, like
you couldn't get all the crazy, you couldn't get the gummy
worries and all that stuff. It was so good.
And I I think about. That all the time.
Life. I do that all the time.
Thank you. You would.
Talk about full circle moments. This was the healing that I
needed. The way I've been burned by
froyo. Froyo coming in and out of our
lives every 10 years and leavinglike you can't have any sense of

(01:06:20):
stability or security in your life.
So true. And no one ever talks about the
froyo of Sweet Green I'll. Be talking about it.
This is why we're here together.I'm talking about it all the
time to on deaf ears, mind you. I'm so glad that I I'm so glad
that I have. You people in Chicago don't
know. It's a very Bethesda, MD
Georgetown thing, I think. About it all the time, those.

(01:06:42):
Were the two spots Yeah, I thinkit's the first froyo I ever had
like true tart froyo because OK,here's my other thing people
sometimes conflate, and I think I've talked about this on the
podcast before soft serve ice cream and froyo, which.
Are not the same totally. Different things.
Oh, she's angry. She's angry.
I just can't believe because if you're talking about froyo, it's

(01:07:04):
yoga meaning tart. Yes you can get flavors but the
the core like the vanilla of froyo is tart froyo and that
does not taste the same as vanilla soft serve.
They're different just 'cause they're swirly.
I was gonna say just 'cause they're both soft and cold.
It's like, so you can't discern anything beyond a texture.

(01:07:25):
Like these people are also confusing peanut butter and
marmalade, I assume. Like they're you have to think
about the flavors. You have to think about the
flavors, dog. You have to think about the
flavors. It's like.
Just. Soft and white, so am I.
Can you imagine if I wanna be a food critic?
Now you have to. You have to think about the
flavors. You have to think about the
flavors. I want it so bad.

(01:07:47):
What toppings do you get on yourfroyo?
I'm. Gonna tell you what I do also
really like soft serve though. No, of course I had it the other
day. Please in a dip.
Like dipped in the chocolate. I love a dipped.
Yeah. Chocolate Vanilla swirl dipped
in chocolate. Yeah, OK.
I, I'm, oh, I do chocolate peanut butter swirl, though.
I like the peanut butter. Oh.

(01:08:08):
OK, there's so many people who hate when we talk about food.
Those people. Do they?
Yeah. When?
I've seen the comments. Oh.
I don't care. They're already gone.
They've already left. Where at the end they already
left they. Already left.
They already left. That's why we put the horrible
topics at the end of the episode.
Great. So what?
What toppings would I put on my froyo?
On the mini Reese's cups? Yeah, I mostly would.

(01:08:31):
Sometimes I just get a cup of those and call it froyo.
But they're just. Peanut butter cups.
Yeah, the mini, the mini cups. There were some fruits I liked
but it was mostly like Mini M and Ms. mini peanut butter cups.
Yep, Yep. Fucking chocolate chip cookie
dough. Yeah.
You know, you're just making a meal, Yeah.

(01:08:53):
Sometimes you have to survey theland and see like what's fucked
up and what's not because froyo places, I mean they're I do
understand the COVID concern of it all because they did get kind
of gross. Like if you got there at the end
of the night when it had alreadybeen savaged.
I'm sure they couldn't even operate during COVID, don't you
think? I don't know, I don't know.

(01:09:14):
I don't think so. Or maybe the people that worked
there had to like do it for you rather than the customers doing
it. But I just feel like they were
ridden with teenagers who would ruin the whole display.
So you'd kind you'd get there and like the chocolate chips
would have like Raspberry seeds and cookie dough mush kind of on

(01:09:35):
them. Like it all just kind of melded
together. So my selections would be a
little bit based on like what looked still appetizing.
But I like the. Cookie dough.
I like chocolate chips. I like strawberries.
I like coconut shavings. Yes, correct.
Thank you for reminding me coconut shavings.
I don't like to do like a chocolate syrup or a fudge or

(01:09:57):
anything because I just, I don'tknow that would be for ice cream
and this is yogurt and. That's I could do it.
I could tolerate. It you could do it.
I mean, I could do it. I'll eat it.
I'll eat. OK, you know, Speaking of
children, like coughing on open air buckets of Oreos.
Is this a good time to talk about buffets?

(01:10:19):
I think so. Oh I'm so glad we're double
clicking on food. I'm so disgusted by a buffet.
That shit's gross. That is I that is gross.
It's sitting out all day. There's almost always bugs and
flies on it. Most of them don't have like
most of them don't have coff guards.
Everyone's just like fingering around in a tub of scrambled

(01:10:41):
eggs. Fucking no thank you.
If I have every once in a while I'm forced to eat at a buffet
and the my approach or like the Whole Foods, like the Whole
Foods hot section buffet, whatever.
God forbid I have to get a fucking olive that day.
My the only thing I will do if there's a tub of whatever
fucking food, they're always in tubs.

(01:11:02):
It has to be full so that I can dig underneath and scoop out
something underneath that hasn'tbeen coughed on, hopefully.
Yeah, like a lower layer, like you're not getting the top layer
in what you take home. Yeah, I dig like a tunnel
underneath it. Look at that.
When I was a kid, I loved buffets.
Like, I was so enchanted by a buffet.

(01:11:23):
Yeah, anytime we went on a family vacation, it was like,
can we please make sure that they have plenty of restaurants
with buffets? Like, come on.
It's just a spoiled little chubby kid, and I do feel like
she's still in me. I love that.
That that was me was like mom and dad.
There weren't enough buffets at this hotel.

(01:11:45):
Are you kidding? Buffets.
Buffet diva. That's so cute.
OK. So she's still in me and like a
part of me is enchanted by a buffet because of the magic it
made me feel when I was younger.But yeah, obviously I like to.
I have a brain and I just can't think much about it.
If I'm at one, yeah, I can't think much about it.

(01:12:06):
I want to be the first. I want them to bring out a new
tray of whatever the item is andthen I go to the buffet and I
get that item. I'm the one to cough on it.
OK, I have first. You guys can serve after me.
Exactly. I think I'm OK with a
continental breakfast. That's a buffet, right?
Yeah, exactly. Those are buffets or like
sometimes really fancy restaurant or fancy like hotels

(01:12:28):
will have like a fancy feeling buffet and as long as it's not
outside, I think if they put thefood outside the flies and.
Stuff are. Attracted.
I've seen flies inside. I also don't want it in a
windowless room, though sometimes it's like in a
basement and I don't like that. I want there to be an
appropriate amount of natural light streaming in.

(01:12:49):
It's a fresh. Hot too much?
Not too much. Over.
It's like creating a fungus on the food or something.
I've never seen such a thing, Jessica.
I just believe that could probably happen with the right
angle of direct sunlight onto a tray of Mac and cheese.
Like that cheese sitting in the sun.
I don't know. It's the scrambled eggs for me.

(01:13:10):
The fucking wet eggs in a tub. Are you fucking kidding me?
But you know what you have to do?
You have to go to the omelet station and get them to make
you. Which is not a buffet.
That's just a personal chef. Yeah, it's not a buffet.
Of course, but they usually. Have the buffet.
At the buffet, right? Totally.
But then the line is so. Now we've so now we've just gone
to a self-serve version of a restaurant.
OK, I just stand up to do this. Why couldn't I do this from my

(01:13:32):
table? So are you perturbed by like a
Chipotle style situation? Yesterday we got Cava which
freaking love like the the assembly line food fast casual
food places does that I'll. Do it.
No, I'll do it. And I think it offends me less
because they're wearing gloves and they guard some blah blah.
It's still it still grosses me out a teeny bit, but it's not as

(01:13:54):
bad as these fucking this like herd of old hags who's all like
sneezing on the same egg. Oh yeah, 100% yeah.
Yeah, I agree. OK, right.
That's it. Good to get off my chest.
I think that's it. Yeah, we got a lot off our chest
today. I feel really free.
I'm gonna go frolic and I hope you do too.

(01:14:16):
Thanks for coming Listening to another episode.
If not for everyone, follow us on Instagram at not the number 4
everyone pod and send us stuff. Send us your thoughts and your
your feelings and your topics. And specifically, in a couple
weeks, we have another Hot, Not bothered summer episode, our
dating series that we're doing every last week of every month

(01:14:40):
this summer. And at the end of June, we'll
have our our the next installment of our dating.
Series so send us your specifically like dating app
texting mishap like modern communication of modern dating.
We want the mishaps, the weird things.
The you know, what does it mean if they watched my Instagram

(01:15:01):
story or didn't watch my Instagram story or sent me this?
What does it mean? I don't know you'll call the
police, but send us those types of what to do specifically with
receipts, screenshots, We want it all.
Thank you. Bye.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

24/7 News: The Latest

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}126. For You: Living Proof That You Can Heal From Your Ex

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

24/7 News: The Latest

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

126. For You: Living Proof That You Can Heal From Your Ex

Stuff You Should Know