April 21, 2025 • 30 mins
Are you staring at your calendar wondering how you'll face another workday? That crushing exhaustion isn't just tiredness—it's burnout, and it's reached epidemic levels among high-achievers and caregivers.
In this eye-opening conversation with psychologist Dr. Jessica Tai, we dive into the science behind workplace burnout, revealing why it's now an official diagnosis with three distinct types that affect us differently. From the frenetic burnout that drives us to check emails during family dinner to the worn-out burnout that makes everything feel urgent, we unpack the hidden symptoms our culture has normalized as "just being busy."
What makes this episode particularly powerful is Dr. Tai's surprising revelation that 99% of her burnout clients stay in their jobs after implementing her recovery strategies. The problem isn't necessarily your career—it's your relationship with work and the boundaries you've never learned to set.
You'll discover practical, immediately applicable techniques to break free from the burnout cycle without sacrificing your success. Learn how a simple dopamine detox can reset your anxious mind, why processing your workplace stress is essential for mental clarity, and how small boundary shifts can reclaim hours of your life each week.
For anyone who's feeling depleted, resentful, or trapped in their career, this conversation offers hope and tangible solutions. Your work doesn't have to consume your identity or drain your soul. Listen now to discover how making your work work for you might be simpler than you think.
👉 Grab your FREE Audio Training: Get Unstuck- 3 Strategies to Break Free from Unhealthy Patterns
👉 Follow me on social @notyourtherapist.kayla
👉 Ask me a question hello@kaylareilly.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey friends, welcome back to Not your Therapist.
If you are new here, welcome.
I'm so glad you're here.
If you're returning, what's up?
I've got a good one for you.
This is the podcast where wemanage life's mess, magic and
everything in between.
I'm your host, kayla.
I'm a licensed therapist.
I'm a leader in the mentalhealth space.
I have a large practice here inWilmington, north Carolina, and
(00:26):
I'm your go-to guide fornon-baloney meat mental health
skills.
I'm here for those cyclebreakers.
You were raised in a messy homeand you are ready to do things
different, and anyone else too,that's just trying to keep it
together.
Today's episode is for you.
If you've ever stared at yourcalendar and thought I cannot go
to work again tomorrow.
What am I doing?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
in my career.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I sat down with Jessica Tai.
She has a PhD in psychology,she's a coach for healthcare
professionals and she's thebrilliant mind behind Soulutions
Soul Soulutions for health.
She's got over 20 years ofexperience in healthcare and
Jessica really likes to helppeople in high stress careers
(01:08):
find success without sacrificingtheir health, sanity or their
soul.
Basically and if you're incorporate America, you know that
a lot of times it's soulsucking All right.
In this episode, we're going totalk about what burnout really
is.
It's not just being tired.
We're going to talk aboutwhat's going on in your body
when you hit that wall and, mostimportantly, three simple,
(01:32):
doable strategies to startpulling yourself out of the
burnout spiral in your workspace.
If you've been feeling crispy,you're depleted and you're
running on fumes, this one's foryou.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Let's jump in depleted and you're running on
fumes.
This one's for you.
Let's jump in.
Burnout.
You know, in a nutshell, peopledon't you know, really know we
talk about burnout in terms ofyou know the symptoms, like I'm
exhausted all the time or I hatemy job.
I've had it.
Maybe I'm in the wrong career.
You know, people are havingthese thoughts, but what burnout
actually is is there's threedifferent types, and what's
(02:05):
important for people to know isthat it actually is an ICD-11
diagnosis.
So the WHO, in 2019, labeledburnout as a workplace
phenomenon and as an actualdiagnosis.
And there's three differentkinds.
So there's frenetic burnout,which is what?
Basically just channeling toomuch energy into your work and
(02:26):
then regular rewards are notenough to compensate you for
that.
So that's you know the peoplewho are, you know, staying late,
coming in early.
I'll just check that email overbreakfast.
I'll just work for a couplehours on Sunday, so that
Monday's not so crazy, and then,before you know it, you're just
way off course and channelingtoo much energy into your work,
(02:49):
and then, when it's time foryour annual increase, you're
like meh, whatever.
So that's frenetic burnout.
Then there's worn out burnout,which is mostly the external
pressures.
So, working in healthcare, Ifelt this a lot.
It's those external pressuresof you've got to work harder,
faster, longer.
It's from your industry, yourcompany, your boss, and it's not
(03:11):
something that you want to doanymore.
Then there's under-challengedburnout and that's kind of like
Milton from Office Space, thatcharacter like, where you're
just kind of ho-hum, you're notbeing challenged into your work.
I want my stapler.
So those are the three kinds ofburnout, and the people that I
work with are usually a mix offrenetic burnout and worn out
(03:34):
burnout.
There's those internalpressures of wanting to do a
good job and just channeling toomuch energy into their job and
then also, coupled with industrypressures, societal pressures,
cultural pressures.
So those are the people that Iusually work with.
Are those folks?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, and it's interesting because when you
were talking about the worn outburnout type, I was thinking,
gosh, even the pressures just ofbeing a woman, like hey, you're
supposed to manage all thethings all the time your kids
still need you, like you can'tcome home and just phone it in.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Right, Right, I mean, there's that saying you know
you've got to have a job as ifyou're not a mom and be a mom as
if you don't have a job.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Oh, I love that.
I've never heard that one.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, yeah, and it's totally true.
There is this societal pressureon women, and I do work with a
lot more women than men.
So and that is a topic thatcomes up for sure is, how do I
balance and how do I have sometime for myself at the end of
the day?
And what is rest really looklike?
And how do I really recharge?
(04:36):
Cause it's not watching Netflix, you know, playing on your
phone, like that's not actuallyrest, but I do it too, like I'm
a human, like you know, I do ittoo.
But there are other things thatyou can do to actually rest and
recharge, and that's what Iteach people.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Totally Especially a lack of input.
I say that to my clients allthe time.
It's like you can disassociatefrom your life by doing the
scroll and watching Grey'sAnatomy and snacking mindlessly
Right, but that's not going tofill your cup the way you know.
(05:11):
Stopping input and kind ofletting your brain decompress
Absolutely.
Well, a lot of women wonder whythey like lay down at night and
they're like I can't sleep.
My mind's going a million milesa minute.
It's like, well, have you had aminute all day to let your
brain unravel?
Like absolutely Marinate in thesauces that you've been
throwing in there all day?
(05:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
That's actually one of the first things that I do
with a new client is a dopaminedetox.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Ooh interesting.
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Well, it's kind of what you were saying.
It's letting the input stop.
There's a kind of a regimen andthen you develop a practice
around it, but it's not havingany input in terms of no TV, no
cell phone, at least notscrolling, and things like that.
Of course you have to have yourphone on you for emergencies,
(06:02):
not saying don't do that, notinternet shopping, just letting
your brain be bored.
I don't think we do that enough.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So many people are uncomfortable with that.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, just sit with your own thoughts, that's such
an uncomfortable place.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Oh yeah, Some people are not okay with that.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah Well, it's uncomfortable.
It's like anything else.
If you, it's like any practice.
If you don't do it or you'renot used to it, then of course
it's uncomfortable when youfirst start.
But you know, I have a practicewhere, you know, daily I try to
decompress and just unplug fromeverything for an hour to two a
day, and you know, then I canwatch Netflix and play Wordle at
(06:42):
the same time, and and becauseI have this practice.
I'm actually you know whateveryou want, yeah, yeah, whatever
it is you know like.
But you, once you have thesepractices and you're actually
letting your brain rest andrecharge, once you're you have a
, you know, a journalingpractice or some other kind of
processing practice where you'reprocessing what's going on with
(07:04):
you and you're actually takingthings out of your suitcase and
working with it.
If you have just those twothings, your life can be a
million times better in a veryshort amount of time.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I resonate with that and I think another thing I
recognize when I do maintainthose practices of processing
and self-reflection and timewhere there's no input and
letting my brain kind of likestretch.
And I love that metaphorunpacking your suitcase that's
really good.
I think there's such alightness that I feel and a
(07:38):
presence, versus the days whereI, you know, yeah, I'm playing
with my kids but I'm thinkingabout work strategies or I'm
thinking about this thing that Iforgot to do and going and
checking my phone real quickwhen the kids aren't looking.
You know there's such adifferent quality.
Yeah, yeah, they know.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Oh, they totally know .
I mean, yeah, my son's eightand I remember when he was like
six years old and I'm listeningto podcasts with one earbud in
because I have a child and I'dlike cover it with my hair.
And he's like mommy, are youlistening to the story in your
ear?
And I'm like gosh.
I don't know if I can curse onthis one, but, mom guilt, please
(08:18):
curse Totally.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, I'm like you got me, so you know I had my one
year old daughter find my phoneon the floor in her toys and
she picked it up and came andbrought it to me.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And I was like that's a sign that we need to get the
phone out of our this thing'simportant yeah she knows Geez
Shame shame shame.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, okay, so talk to me.
We're getting back to this ideaof burnout in the workspace.
Yes, now can we talk a littlebit about people who wrap up
their value in their career,because I feel like a lot of
people.
When you ask, like well, whatdo you do?
(09:01):
It's like well, the automaticanswer is I'm a therapist or I'm
a coach or I'm, you know, anetwork manager for a high
powered tech company, whateverit is Like people really
identify with what they do for aliving.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, yeah, we do, and especially in our American
culture, I think that Westernculture in general, we so
identify.
You know who we are with whatwe do, and a lot of my work is
decoupling that.
Not in a way where it's ofcourse it's good to have a
(09:36):
conversation and you know, whenyou're first getting to know
people, yeah, like what do youdo all day long?
Like that's totally fine.
That's not what I'm talkingabout, but it's about.
But who are you when you're notat your job?
Or what if you lose your jobtomorrow?
Like then, if you really don'tknow who you are and you're not
settled within yourself, thenthat's a problem and it can lead
(09:56):
to other issues psychologically.
So we just want to make surethat you decouple your value and
your self-worth from what youdo for a living, because it
might not be there tomorrow orit might not be as fulfilling as
it once was, especially ifyou're channeling too much
energy in and not gettinganything back.
(10:25):
That creates all sorts of otherissues.
And I like the term of thesuitcase, because you're dealing
with that all day long andyou're just packing it away,
because it's not appropriate tolike yell at your boss or tell
them how you know you'reundervalued and resentful.
Right, that's not.
That's not safe at work.
So you pack it away in yoursuitcase, but then the problem
(10:46):
is that we don't unpack it andwe just or it spills over into
your wife, oh yeah, right,exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Or your husband.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, exactly, or the you know the people around you
and you know, before you know it, like your friends don't want
to hear about your crappy jobanymore, like it's come on, like
at least okay, you've got thisproblem, but do something about
it.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yes, oh my gosh, wow, yeah, or whole relationships
are built on commiserating aboutworkplaces.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Oh sure, and that's no fun, right Sure A lot of our
work, friends.
It's like oh, oh, you hate ithere too.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Oh, let's go have a beer, yeah, yeah, and that's
like a very false way ofconnecting with someone.
It's a, you know, pseudo senseof intimacy and closeness.
When we're talking shit aboutsomething, whether it's a person
or a job or whatever, it feelslike intimacy, but it's really,
you know, not.
It's not fulfilling anyways,and it's not solving your
(11:41):
problem.
Sure, isn't.
It's probably making you moreangry, it totally?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
is.
And then you're taking onsomeone else's resentment,
someone else's problems andsomeone else's gossip and that's
just creating more of an issue.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
What do you say?
The biggest contributingfactors are to people in like
high demand jobs.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
That's a good question.
I you know what I'll talk abouthealthcare, because it's mostly
who I work with, people who arehealthcare providers.
I call them like caregiverswith like a capital C, like they
are internally.
Their makeup, theirconstitution is to automatically
(12:29):
be rewarded when they give morethan they receive, when they
care about others, when they dothings for other people, and so
it's so easy for healthcareproviders for you know other
people moms, other people inother types of caregiving
behaviors, teachers, all ofthose people because they
(12:50):
intrinsically get rewarded forhelping others they can so
easily cross that line intoburnout and not have anything
for themselves.
So I think, if that's yourconstitution, if that's your
makeup, that can be a factor andit also based on the culture or
the type of work that you'redoing.
(13:12):
The industry, those the industryputs pressure on you to give
more than you receive.
Our culture puts pressure on usto give more than we receive
and be constantly be moreproductive.
And you know the whole.
You know biohacking culture andlet's optimize everything and
it's like, well, you're reallyoptimizing for the wrong things.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Totally, and that's a whole other podcast.
But yeah, like optimizing forthe job, I think that's
something that people forget toois, you know, a lot of times if
we have an unhealthy workspace,the workspace is promoting what
benefits the job, the money,the dollars.
(13:57):
It's not optimized for helpingand serving you unless you have
an amazing place of work likeEvolution Wellness in Wilmington
, north Carolina.
Selfish plug in there,shameless plug.
I love it.
Shameless Flexi flex.
But I will say it's funny whenpeople reframe that it's like oh
(14:18):
, oh, yeah, that's right, likethey're in it for them.
They're not thinking about you.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
No, no, they're out for their own business, they're
out for their own promotion, andI think that you know we're.
It's a really difficult linebecause there is so much
corporate language around oh, wewant to mentor you and we want
to support you, and we have awellness program, and what
employees find is that that'snot exactly true, like your
(14:47):
supervisor is no longer yourmentor in the way that that used
to mean something, and so it'svery easy, I think, for people
to just get lost and then they,before you know it, you're
burned out.
You have no idea how you'regoing to get the kids to soccer,
you don't let your brain reallyrest and recharge, so you're
(15:07):
not thinking clearly and goingback to optimizing.
Like if you actually slow down,really rest and recharge, deal
with some of these issues thatare coming up for you, then that
does optimize you for your jobbecause you can actually think
clearly and see a situation forwhat it is and accurately and
effectively solve those problemsand come up with solutions that
(15:28):
actually work.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yes, yes, and I think a lot of big companies are
starting to recognize that Ireally do.
I do too.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Actually there's a lot of hope.
It's getting there.
It's getting there, yes.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yes.
Well, and I will say this Ithink the answer and we can get
into that the answer doesn't liein being like angry and bitter
and resentful and being likefuck the man and I'm not going
to, you know it's.
That's not the answer.
The answer is finding that,that balance, and being able to
be self-serving and self-caring,because I don't think there's
(16:08):
anything wrong with wanting tosucceed in your career.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with feeling valuable to
other people.
I think where we go wrong iswhen we give more than what we
have.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Absolutely yeah, yeah .
And resentment is a toxin toyour system all the way around.
It doesn't help you.
It doesn't help you solve yourproblem.
So it's about getting past thatand stop doing those behaviors
that aren't helping you andstart doing behaviors that do.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
So let's drop it down into real life.
What are some easy thingspeople can start to do if
they're listening to our episodeand they're thinking, holy shit
, this is me, I need to change.
What are some like practicalbaby steps, because I'm all
about small changes make bigresults, right.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah, me too.
That's my philosophy too.
It doesn't have to be this big,huge thing.
So, you know, I talked about,like the dopamine detox and
there's great um YouTube videoson how to do that.
There's great handouts.
You can you can find some ofthat stuff on there.
Um, you know, definitely letyour brain rest and recharge and
just be bored.
(17:19):
Um, the other thing that I liketo have people do because when
you're burnt out, you're anxiousa lot of these people, one of
their main symptoms that theyhate is having those ruminating
thoughts, those automaticnegative thoughts, ants, and you
know what do we do with ants?
We got to squish them.
So one of the things that I liketo do with people is have some
(17:41):
kind of a journaling orprocessing practice where you
can actually unpack some ofthose things, whether that's
working with a coach or doingsomething on your own or going
to a support group, there's allsorts of resources out there now
that you can do just somethingso that you can get off that
thought carousel and get it downon paper, and looking at it in
(18:04):
black and white really does helpwith processing some of that
and unpacking that suitcase.
So that's something that'sreally helpful for people, I
think you know.
One of the other things is, youknow, just doing things that
are positive, you know, andgetting back into the practice
(18:26):
of experimenting and beingcurious and giving yourself
permission to do positive thingsand helpful things, versus just
getting stuck in complainingand being resentful and just
being tired all the time.
Bringing some joy and givingyourself permission to
experiment with things that arejoyful I think is so important
(18:48):
for people and that's what I tryto do with my clients.
Those are like the first threethings I always do.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
And you're talking about in their lives or in their
work or both, when you talkabout finding joy, good question
.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
You know I I mostly in their lives first, and then
we kind of find joy.
You know, one of the um, yeah,I work with a lot of healthcare
folks and when I started thisbusiness, um, I was not
expecting people to stay intheir jobs.
I thought I was going to do alot of career coaching.
And you know, people arecalling me, going like I'm a
nurse and I'm ready to start afood truck.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I've had it like they are like I mean, people call me
and they're like I need a newjob, I legitimately said the
other day I was like I am aboutthis close from burning down my
counseling center and opening adonut shop.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Right, right, like I will literally do anything else.
We can all relate to thatmoment.
Um, all every single personthat I've worked with, except
for one person, has stayed intheir job, and I was not
expecting that result Wow, so Iwasn't.
But when you change yourrelationship to work and make
(20:03):
work work for you and put upthose boundaries that work for
you and actually start thesepractices to work through, some
of this stuff that's happening.
People were are happy andstayed.
I just checked in with somebody, an old client, um, just today,
cause I was like oh hey, Iheard about this job, do you
want me to forward your resume?
(20:23):
And she's like, actually, I'mreally happy, I'm going to stay
where I am, like I really likemy boss, I'm like great, like
that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
That's so cool, yeah yeah.
So people are finding that thejob isn't necessarily the
problem, it's our relationshipto the job, it's our struggle to
set boundaries, it's ourchecking our emails when we're
sitting there at family dinner.
Right, right, checking ouremails when we're sitting there
with at family dinner, like.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Right, right, it's all of those things that you
know we have, that.
You know we call it behavioraldrift in psychology, right?
You just you drift over intothese unhealthy behaviors and
you have no idea how to get back.
And all you need is, you know,someone to kind of work with you
on pointing out where thosethings are and bringing you back
(21:09):
.
And once you're back, peopleare more able, I think, to make
an accurate decision whenthey're able to think clearly,
when they're able to really rest, when they're able to recharge,
and then they're like, oh youknow what, it's not so bad
actually.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Right.
Well, and it's if you wereprogrammed one way, and
especially a lot of millennials.
We were programmed by boomerswho were the you know, pick
yourself up by your bootstraps,work hard and good things will
happen kind of mentality.
So you were programmed in thatway.
So recognizing that if you justlive your life on default,
(21:49):
you're default going to be inburnout because that's how you
were raised, right.
So so intentionally shifting toreprogram yourself.
It's going to be hard initially, but eventually, if you
reprogram yourself, your newdefault will become easier.
It's more.
It feels more downhill.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Right, right, absolutely.
I mean, I was working with aclient, been working with her
for a few months.
She's like a middle manager ina very large healthcare company
you know, has a bunch ofdirectors underneath her and she
is such a success story.
She was absolutely petrified tonot work on Sunday.
She was absolutely petrified tonot work for two or two to
(22:31):
three hours at night and notcheck her email in the morning
over coffee.
I mean, like these are thefirst skills that I was like you
want more time back in your day.
This is where it is.
She was absolutely petrified andyou know we just started
chipping away at it.
I was like and you know long,we just started chipping away at
(22:52):
it.
I was like just all right on onMonday, don't work, you already
worked on Sunday.
Don't work after, after work onMonday like, just have Mondays
right and we started justchipping away at it.
And now it's not like she'sworking like only 40 hours a
week, because that's not healthcare and that's not realistic.
Yeah, true, but she's notworking 60.
(23:12):
Which?
Speaker 1 (23:14):
is a win.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And she's not working on Sundays and she takes one
three day weekend a month andshe's not working at night very
much, unless something happens,which you know.
That's health care.
Yeah, there's always anemergency, there's always a
dumpster fire somewhere, butit's not every but it's not like
you're acting every day Likethere's a dumpster fire and
(23:36):
that's the problem, and so well,and when you're off, time can
really be off time.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Oh yeah, right, like if I can be present in my head
with my children or with myfamily over dinner or while I'm
washing the dishes, and I'm notover here in work land, because
that's a thing.
You might not be workingphysically, but if you're
working mentally, it's the samecycle.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Same thing, yeah yeah .
Cycle, same thing, yeah, yeah.
Well, and and especially, youknow, when you are a supervisor
or when you're an entrepreneur,I mean you're, you're kind of
always in work mode.
You're always thinking or it'slike, oh gosh, I got to remember
to do that, or I got the.
I love that ad I think it was aSuperbowl ad where, like
they're this lady's, like thelittle kids, are just finding
(24:25):
these sticky notes everywhereand it's like invoices, do this
call this person?
And that is my brain as anentrepreneur now, oh yeah, just
like it's just.
I see sticky notes of reminderseverywhere and I have to like
write everything down.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I like the meme that's like is your brain like a
browser with 367 tabs open atthe same?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
time.
Oh yeah, yes, it is yes, it isyes.
Yes, my brain reflects my phone.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yes, Are you an oldest daughter?
Like are you an oldest child?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I'm an only child actually, ah, interesting, yes,
okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, I find it's true with a lot of, like, oldest
children.
They're kind of that type A,like you know people pleasing,
yes, overachieving, kind ofpeople, which is not a bad thing
.
(25:22):
I think it's.
You know, I really don't thinkit's.
And I don't think it's a badthing to be a company man.
I have air quotes because youmight be a company woman.
But I believe in therelationship between an
organization and an employeebecause I think it brings a lot
of benefits.
But, like Jessica's been saying, I think it's how you engage in
your work, it's how you setthose boundaries, it's even
(25:44):
finding joy in your work.
Again, I know a lot of peoplewho are like why am I doing this
?
And it's like, well, you didhave a why once upon a time,
like, let's find that.
Absolutely let's re-engage withthat part of you that actually
liked being a nurse or enjoyedbeing in the network management
(26:05):
world.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, yeah, Well, and let's create.
You know, I work with a lot ofdirectors and supervisors and
you know they want to mentorpeople, they want to create a
cohesive team, and so I teachthem how to do that in a really
effective way in this new workenvironment.
And actually, you know, teachtheir employees these skills so
that they can also protectthemselves from burnout.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
So which is?
Speaker 2 (26:29):
amazing to see.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, really I love that success story.
I love the idea of not workingon the weekends and being off
when you're truly off.
I think that's so hard for someof us.
Do you believe in?
I'll ask you this do youbelieve that a lot of us make
emergencies in our head whenreally things aren't that
(26:51):
emergent?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Absolutely, and that is a symptom of burnout.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
It is.
So there's a lot of cognitivesymptoms of burnout, and when
everything seems urgent, whenyou have the inability to relax,
even when you can, like, thoseare all things that are symptoms
of burnout that people don'treally recognize, because that's
kind of our culture.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, Our culture hides a lot of these symptoms
and so when it's hard torecognize, like, oh, am I
actually burnt out or is am Ijust an American?
Like am I just like, do I justhave a job and kids?
And like life's busy and I haveno idea what's for dinner you
know, the regular life kind ofhides that sometimes, but yes,
(27:41):
that is a total symptom.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, wow.
What are some other symptomsthat are kind of like surprising
?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Oh yeah, I have like a whole worksheet.
Oh, cool, feels urgent.
We talked about being resentful, not having energy to do things
(28:13):
that you once enjoyed.
There's an inability to stopthose ruminating thoughts sleep
disturbances, eatingdisturbances, self-medication,
either with food or drugs oralcohol, or you know just
unhealthy behaviors.
Shopping, shopping, scrollingyeah, the doom scrolling, oh
(28:39):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah, those can all be symptoms, but you know, one
of the big ones is everythingseems urgent and everything
seems important and theinability to prioritize.
One of the other things is oneof the symptoms I look for is if
someone can not see the future,like future in time, like the
(29:01):
shorter in time they can reallysee, like if it's like all right
, they can't really see past twoweeks and they don't have
long-term goals or they're likeI don't know, there's like a one
day when I retire, but theydon't have anything in between
and any goals.
That's a symptom of burnout too, cause they're just like I just
(29:22):
have to deal with what's infront of me.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
That's a wrap, y'all.
I'm about to go do a littledopamine detox because Lord
knows I need it.
If you want to learn more aboutthat, google it.
It's so interesting.
If this conversation hit youright in your crispy, overworked
soul, go find Jessica onInstagram and also come follow
(29:45):
me.
Come say hey, I love hearingwhat landed for you, what came
up for you when you listened tothis episode.
Slide into my DMs and let meknow what burnout symptom hit
you a little too close to home.
And hey, if you've taken twominutes out of your life to
subscribe or follow Not yourTherapist, and maybe you even
have left me a five-star reviewwherever you're listening.
(30:07):
Thank you so much, you freakingrock.
That support means everything.
I'm gonna catch you on the nextepisode.
Right Bye.
Hey friends, welcome back to Not your Therapist.
If you are new here, welcome.
I'm so glad you're here.
If you're returning, what's up?
I've got a good one for you.
This is the podcast where wemanage life's mess, magic and
everything in between.
I'm your host, kayla.
I'm a licensed therapist.
I'm a leader in the mentalhealth space.
I have a large practice here inWilmington, north Carolina, and
(00:26):
I'm your go-to guide fornon-baloney meat mental health
skills.
I'm here for those cyclebreakers.
You were raised in a messy homeand you are ready to do things
different, and anyone else too,that's just trying to keep it
together.
Today's episode is for you.
If you've ever stared at yourcalendar and thought I cannot go
to work again tomorrow.
What am I doing?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
in my career.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I sat down with Jessica Tai.
She has a PhD in psychology,she's a coach for healthcare
professionals and she's thebrilliant mind behind Soulutions
Soul Soulutions for health.
She's got over 20 years ofexperience in healthcare and
Jessica really likes to helppeople in high stress careers
(01:08):
find success without sacrificingtheir health, sanity or their
soul.
Basically and if you're incorporate America, you know that
a lot of times it's soulsucking All right.
In this episode, we're going totalk about what burnout really
is.
It's not just being tired.
We're going to talk aboutwhat's going on in your body
when you hit that wall and, mostimportantly, three simple,
(01:32):
doable strategies to startpulling yourself out of the
burnout spiral in your workspace.
If you've been feeling crispy,you're depleted and you're
running on fumes, this one's foryou.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Let's jump in depleted and you're running on
fumes.
This one's for you.
Let's jump in.
Burnout.
You know, in a nutshell, peopledon't you know, really know we
talk about burnout in terms ofyou know the symptoms, like I'm
exhausted all the time or I hatemy job.
I've had it.
Maybe I'm in the wrong career.
You know, people are havingthese thoughts, but what burnout
actually is is there's threedifferent types, and what's
(02:05):
important for people to know isthat it actually is an ICD-11
diagnosis.
So the WHO, in 2019, labeledburnout as a workplace
phenomenon and as an actualdiagnosis.
And there's three differentkinds.
So there's frenetic burnout,which is what?
Basically just channeling toomuch energy into your work and
(02:26):
then regular rewards are notenough to compensate you for
that.
So that's you know the peoplewho are, you know, staying late,
coming in early.
I'll just check that email overbreakfast.
I'll just work for a couplehours on Sunday, so that
Monday's not so crazy, and then,before you know it, you're just
way off course and channelingtoo much energy into your work,
(02:49):
and then, when it's time foryour annual increase, you're
like meh, whatever.
So that's frenetic burnout.
Then there's worn out burnout,which is mostly the external
pressures.
So, working in healthcare, Ifelt this a lot.
It's those external pressuresof you've got to work harder,
faster, longer.
It's from your industry, yourcompany, your boss, and it's not
(03:11):
something that you want to doanymore.
Then there's under-challengedburnout and that's kind of like
Milton from Office Space, thatcharacter like, where you're
just kind of ho-hum, you're notbeing challenged into your work.
I want my stapler.
So those are the three kinds ofburnout, and the people that I
work with are usually a mix offrenetic burnout and worn out
(03:34):
burnout.
There's those internalpressures of wanting to do a
good job and just channeling toomuch energy into their job and
then also, coupled with industrypressures, societal pressures,
cultural pressures.
So those are the people that Iusually work with.
Are those folks?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, and it's interesting because when you
were talking about the worn outburnout type, I was thinking,
gosh, even the pressures just ofbeing a woman, like hey, you're
supposed to manage all thethings all the time your kids
still need you, like you can'tcome home and just phone it in.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Right, Right, I mean, there's that saying you know
you've got to have a job as ifyou're not a mom and be a mom as
if you don't have a job.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Oh, I love that.
I've never heard that one.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, yeah, and it's totally true.
There is this societal pressureon women, and I do work with a
lot more women than men.
So and that is a topic thatcomes up for sure is, how do I
balance and how do I have sometime for myself at the end of
the day?
And what is rest really looklike?
And how do I really recharge?
(04:36):
Cause it's not watching Netflix, you know, playing on your
phone, like that's not actuallyrest, but I do it too, like I'm
a human, like you know, I do ittoo.
But there are other things thatyou can do to actually rest and
recharge, and that's what Iteach people.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Totally Especially a lack of input.
I say that to my clients allthe time.
It's like you can disassociatefrom your life by doing the
scroll and watching Grey'sAnatomy and snacking mindlessly
Right, but that's not going tofill your cup the way you know.
(05:11):
Stopping input and kind ofletting your brain decompress
Absolutely.
Well, a lot of women wonder whythey like lay down at night and
they're like I can't sleep.
My mind's going a million milesa minute.
It's like, well, have you had aminute all day to let your
brain unravel?
Like absolutely Marinate in thesauces that you've been
throwing in there all day?
(05:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
That's actually one of the first things that I do
with a new client is a dopaminedetox.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Ooh interesting.
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Well, it's kind of what you were saying.
It's letting the input stop.
There's a kind of a regimen andthen you develop a practice
around it, but it's not havingany input in terms of no TV, no
cell phone, at least notscrolling, and things like that.
Of course you have to have yourphone on you for emergencies,
(06:02):
not saying don't do that, notinternet shopping, just letting
your brain be bored.
I don't think we do that enough.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So many people are uncomfortable with that.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, just sit with your own thoughts, that's such
an uncomfortable place.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Oh yeah, Some people are not okay with that.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah Well, it's uncomfortable.
It's like anything else.
If you, it's like any practice.
If you don't do it or you'renot used to it, then of course
it's uncomfortable when youfirst start.
But you know, I have a practicewhere, you know, daily I try to
decompress and just unplug fromeverything for an hour to two a
day, and you know, then I canwatch Netflix and play Wordle at
(06:42):
the same time, and and becauseI have this practice.
I'm actually you know whateveryou want, yeah, yeah, whatever
it is you know like.
But you, once you have thesepractices and you're actually
letting your brain rest andrecharge, once you're you have a
, you know, a journalingpractice or some other kind of
processing practice where you'reprocessing what's going on with
(07:04):
you and you're actually takingthings out of your suitcase and
working with it.
If you have just those twothings, your life can be a
million times better in a veryshort amount of time.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
I resonate with that and I think another thing I
recognize when I do maintainthose practices of processing
and self-reflection and timewhere there's no input and
letting my brain kind of likestretch.
And I love that metaphorunpacking your suitcase that's
really good.
I think there's such alightness that I feel and a
(07:38):
presence, versus the days whereI, you know, yeah, I'm playing
with my kids but I'm thinkingabout work strategies or I'm
thinking about this thing that Iforgot to do and going and
checking my phone real quickwhen the kids aren't looking.
You know there's such adifferent quality.
Yeah, yeah, they know.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Oh, they totally know .
I mean, yeah, my son's eightand I remember when he was like
six years old and I'm listeningto podcasts with one earbud in
because I have a child and I'dlike cover it with my hair.
And he's like mommy, are youlistening to the story in your
ear?
And I'm like gosh.
I don't know if I can curse onthis one, but, mom guilt, please
(08:18):
curse Totally.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, I'm like you got me, so you know I had my one
year old daughter find my phoneon the floor in her toys and
she picked it up and came andbrought it to me.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
And I was like that's a sign that we need to get the
phone out of our this thing'simportant yeah she knows Geez
Shame shame shame.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, okay, so talk to me.
We're getting back to this ideaof burnout in the workspace.
Yes, now can we talk a littlebit about people who wrap up
their value in their career,because I feel like a lot of
people.
When you ask, like well, whatdo you do?
(09:01):
It's like well, the automaticanswer is I'm a therapist or I'm
a coach or I'm, you know, anetwork manager for a high
powered tech company, whateverit is Like people really
identify with what they do for aliving.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, yeah, we do, and especially in our American
culture, I think that Westernculture in general, we so
identify.
You know who we are with whatwe do, and a lot of my work is
decoupling that.
Not in a way where it's ofcourse it's good to have a
(09:36):
conversation and you know, whenyou're first getting to know
people, yeah, like what do youdo all day long?
Like that's totally fine.
That's not what I'm talkingabout, but it's about.
But who are you when you're notat your job?
Or what if you lose your jobtomorrow?
Like then, if you really don'tknow who you are and you're not
settled within yourself, thenthat's a problem and it can lead
(09:56):
to other issues psychologically.
So we just want to make surethat you decouple your value and
your self-worth from what youdo for a living, because it
might not be there tomorrow orit might not be as fulfilling as
it once was, especially ifyou're channeling too much
energy in and not gettinganything back.
(10:25):
That creates all sorts of otherissues.
And I like the term of thesuitcase, because you're dealing
with that all day long andyou're just packing it away,
because it's not appropriate tolike yell at your boss or tell
them how you know you'reundervalued and resentful.
Right, that's not.
That's not safe at work.
So you pack it away in yoursuitcase, but then the problem
(10:46):
is that we don't unpack it andwe just or it spills over into
your wife, oh yeah, right,exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Or your husband.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, exactly, or the you know the people around you
and you know, before you know it, like your friends don't want
to hear about your crappy jobanymore, like it's come on, like
at least okay, you've got thisproblem, but do something about
it.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yes, oh my gosh, wow, yeah, or whole relationships
are built on commiserating aboutworkplaces.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Oh sure, and that's no fun, right Sure A lot of our
work, friends.
It's like oh, oh, you hate ithere too.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Oh, let's go have a beer, yeah, yeah, and that's
like a very false way ofconnecting with someone.
It's a, you know, pseudo senseof intimacy and closeness.
When we're talking shit aboutsomething, whether it's a person
or a job or whatever, it feelslike intimacy, but it's really,
you know, not.
It's not fulfilling anyways,and it's not solving your
(11:41):
problem.
Sure, isn't.
It's probably making you moreangry, it totally?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
is.
And then you're taking onsomeone else's resentment,
someone else's problems andsomeone else's gossip and that's
just creating more of an issue.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
What do you say?
The biggest contributingfactors are to people in like
high demand jobs.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
That's a good question.
I you know what I'll talk abouthealthcare, because it's mostly
who I work with, people who arehealthcare providers.
I call them like caregiverswith like a capital C, like they
are internally.
Their makeup, theirconstitution is to automatically
(12:29):
be rewarded when they give morethan they receive, when they
care about others, when they dothings for other people, and so
it's so easy for healthcareproviders for you know other
people moms, other people inother types of caregiving
behaviors, teachers, all ofthose people because they
(12:50):
intrinsically get rewarded forhelping others they can so
easily cross that line intoburnout and not have anything
for themselves.
So I think, if that's yourconstitution, if that's your
makeup, that can be a factor andit also based on the culture or
the type of work that you'redoing.
(13:12):
The industry, those the industryputs pressure on you to give
more than you receive.
Our culture puts pressure on usto give more than we receive
and be constantly be moreproductive.
And you know the whole.
You know biohacking culture andlet's optimize everything and
it's like, well, you're reallyoptimizing for the wrong things.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Totally, and that's a whole other podcast.
But yeah, like optimizing forthe job, I think that's
something that people forget toois, you know, a lot of times if
we have an unhealthy workspace,the workspace is promoting what
benefits the job, the money,the dollars.
(13:57):
It's not optimized for helpingand serving you unless you have
an amazing place of work likeEvolution Wellness in Wilmington
, north Carolina.
Selfish plug in there,shameless plug.
I love it.
Shameless Flexi flex.
But I will say it's funny whenpeople reframe that it's like oh
(14:18):
, oh, yeah, that's right, likethey're in it for them.
They're not thinking about you.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
No, no, they're out for their own business, they're
out for their own promotion, andI think that you know we're.
It's a really difficult linebecause there is so much
corporate language around oh, wewant to mentor you and we want
to support you, and we have awellness program, and what
employees find is that that'snot exactly true, like your
(14:47):
supervisor is no longer yourmentor in the way that that used
to mean something, and so it'svery easy, I think, for people
to just get lost and then they,before you know it, you're
burned out.
You have no idea how you'regoing to get the kids to soccer,
you don't let your brain reallyrest and recharge, so you're
(15:07):
not thinking clearly and goingback to optimizing.
Like if you actually slow down,really rest and recharge, deal
with some of these issues thatare coming up for you, then that
does optimize you for your jobbecause you can actually think
clearly and see a situation forwhat it is and accurately and
effectively solve those problemsand come up with solutions that
(15:28):
actually work.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yes, yes, and I think a lot of big companies are
starting to recognize that Ireally do.
I do too.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Actually there's a lot of hope.
It's getting there.
It's getting there, yes.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yes.
Well, and I will say this Ithink the answer and we can get
into that the answer doesn't liein being like angry and bitter
and resentful and being likefuck the man and I'm not going
to, you know it's.
That's not the answer.
The answer is finding that,that balance, and being able to
be self-serving and self-caring,because I don't think there's
(16:08):
anything wrong with wanting tosucceed in your career.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with feeling valuable to
other people.
I think where we go wrong iswhen we give more than what we
have.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Absolutely yeah, yeah .
And resentment is a toxin toyour system all the way around.
It doesn't help you.
It doesn't help you solve yourproblem.
So it's about getting past thatand stop doing those behaviors
that aren't helping you andstart doing behaviors that do.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
So let's drop it down into real life.
What are some easy thingspeople can start to do if
they're listening to our episodeand they're thinking, holy shit
, this is me, I need to change.
What are some like practicalbaby steps, because I'm all
about small changes make bigresults, right.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah, me too.
That's my philosophy too.
It doesn't have to be this big,huge thing.
So, you know, I talked about,like the dopamine detox and
there's great um YouTube videoson how to do that.
There's great handouts.
You can you can find some ofthat stuff on there.
Um, you know, definitely letyour brain rest and recharge and
just be bored.
(17:19):
Um, the other thing that I liketo have people do because when
you're burnt out, you're anxiousa lot of these people, one of
their main symptoms that theyhate is having those ruminating
thoughts, those automaticnegative thoughts, ants, and you
know what do we do with ants?
We got to squish them.
So one of the things that I liketo do with people is have some
(17:41):
kind of a journaling orprocessing practice where you
can actually unpack some ofthose things, whether that's
working with a coach or doingsomething on your own or going
to a support group, there's allsorts of resources out there now
that you can do just somethingso that you can get off that
thought carousel and get it downon paper, and looking at it in
(18:04):
black and white really does helpwith processing some of that
and unpacking that suitcase.
So that's something that'sreally helpful for people, I
think you know.
One of the other things is, youknow, just doing things that
are positive, you know, andgetting back into the practice
(18:26):
of experimenting and beingcurious and giving yourself
permission to do positive thingsand helpful things, versus just
getting stuck in complainingand being resentful and just
being tired all the time.
Bringing some joy and givingyourself permission to
experiment with things that arejoyful I think is so important
(18:48):
for people and that's what I tryto do with my clients.
Those are like the first threethings I always do.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
And you're talking about in their lives or in their
work or both, when you talkabout finding joy, good question
.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
You know I I mostly in their lives first, and then
we kind of find joy.
You know, one of the um, yeah,I work with a lot of healthcare
folks and when I started thisbusiness, um, I was not
expecting people to stay intheir jobs.
I thought I was going to do alot of career coaching.
And you know, people arecalling me, going like I'm a
nurse and I'm ready to start afood truck.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I've had it like they are like I mean, people call me
and they're like I need a newjob, I legitimately said the
other day I was like I am aboutthis close from burning down my
counseling center and opening adonut shop.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Right, right, like I will literally do anything else.
We can all relate to thatmoment.
Um, all every single personthat I've worked with, except
for one person, has stayed intheir job, and I was not
expecting that result Wow, so Iwasn't.
But when you change yourrelationship to work and make
(20:03):
work work for you and put upthose boundaries that work for
you and actually start thesepractices to work through, some
of this stuff that's happening.
People were are happy andstayed.
I just checked in with somebody, an old client, um, just today,
cause I was like oh hey, Iheard about this job, do you
want me to forward your resume?
(20:23):
And she's like, actually, I'mreally happy, I'm going to stay
where I am, like I really likemy boss, I'm like great, like
that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
That's so cool, yeah yeah.
So people are finding that thejob isn't necessarily the
problem, it's our relationshipto the job, it's our struggle to
set boundaries, it's ourchecking our emails when we're
sitting there at family dinner.
Right, right, checking ouremails when we're sitting there
with at family dinner, like.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Right, right, it's all of those things that you
know we have, that.
You know we call it behavioraldrift in psychology, right?
You just you drift over intothese unhealthy behaviors and
you have no idea how to get back.
And all you need is, you know,someone to kind of work with you
on pointing out where thosethings are and bringing you back
(21:09):
.
And once you're back, peopleare more able, I think, to make
an accurate decision whenthey're able to think clearly,
when they're able to really rest, when they're able to recharge,
and then they're like, oh youknow what, it's not so bad
actually.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Right.
Well, and it's if you wereprogrammed one way, and
especially a lot of millennials.
We were programmed by boomerswho were the you know, pick
yourself up by your bootstraps,work hard and good things will
happen kind of mentality.
So you were programmed in thatway.
So recognizing that if you justlive your life on default,
(21:49):
you're default going to be inburnout because that's how you
were raised, right.
So so intentionally shifting toreprogram yourself.
It's going to be hard initially, but eventually, if you
reprogram yourself, your newdefault will become easier.
It's more.
It feels more downhill.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Right, right, absolutely.
I mean, I was working with aclient, been working with her
for a few months.
She's like a middle manager ina very large healthcare company
you know, has a bunch ofdirectors underneath her and she
is such a success story.
She was absolutely petrified tonot work on Sunday.
She was absolutely petrified tonot work for two or two to
(22:31):
three hours at night and notcheck her email in the morning
over coffee.
I mean, like these are thefirst skills that I was like you
want more time back in your day.
This is where it is.
She was absolutely petrified andyou know we just started
chipping away at it.
I was like and you know long,we just started chipping away at
(22:52):
it.
I was like just all right on onMonday, don't work, you already
worked on Sunday.
Don't work after, after work onMonday like, just have Mondays
right and we started justchipping away at it.
And now it's not like she'sworking like only 40 hours a
week, because that's not healthcare and that's not realistic.
Yeah, true, but she's notworking 60.
(23:12):
Which?
Speaker 1 (23:14):
is a win.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And she's not working on Sundays and she takes one
three day weekend a month andshe's not working at night very
much, unless something happens,which you know.
That's health care.
Yeah, there's always anemergency, there's always a
dumpster fire somewhere, butit's not every but it's not like
you're acting every day Likethere's a dumpster fire and
(23:36):
that's the problem, and so well,and when you're off, time can
really be off time.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Oh yeah, right, like if I can be present in my head
with my children or with myfamily over dinner or while I'm
washing the dishes, and I'm notover here in work land, because
that's a thing.
You might not be workingphysically, but if you're
working mentally, it's the samecycle.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Same thing, yeah yeah .
Cycle, same thing, yeah, yeah.
Well, and and especially, youknow, when you are a supervisor
or when you're an entrepreneur,I mean you're, you're kind of
always in work mode.
You're always thinking or it'slike, oh gosh, I got to remember
to do that, or I got the.
I love that ad I think it was aSuperbowl ad where, like
they're this lady's, like thelittle kids, are just finding
(24:25):
these sticky notes everywhereand it's like invoices, do this
call this person?
And that is my brain as anentrepreneur now, oh yeah, just
like it's just.
I see sticky notes of reminderseverywhere and I have to like
write everything down.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I like the meme that's like is your brain like a
browser with 367 tabs open atthe same?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
time.
Oh yeah, yes, it is yes, it isyes.
Yes, my brain reflects my phone.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yes, Are you an oldest daughter?
Like are you an oldest child?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I'm an only child actually, ah, interesting, yes,
okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, I find it's true with a lot of, like, oldest
children.
They're kind of that type A,like you know people pleasing,
yes, overachieving, kind ofpeople, which is not a bad thing
.
(25:22):
I think it's.
You know, I really don't thinkit's.
And I don't think it's a badthing to be a company man.
I have air quotes because youmight be a company woman.
But I believe in therelationship between an
organization and an employeebecause I think it brings a lot
of benefits.
But, like Jessica's been saying, I think it's how you engage in
your work, it's how you setthose boundaries, it's even
(25:44):
finding joy in your work.
Again, I know a lot of peoplewho are like why am I doing this
?
And it's like, well, you didhave a why once upon a time,
like, let's find that.
Absolutely let's re-engage withthat part of you that actually
liked being a nurse or enjoyedbeing in the network management
(26:05):
world.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, yeah, Well, and let's create.
You know, I work with a lot ofdirectors and supervisors and
you know they want to mentorpeople, they want to create a
cohesive team, and so I teachthem how to do that in a really
effective way in this new workenvironment.
And actually, you know, teachtheir employees these skills so
that they can also protectthemselves from burnout.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
So which is?
Speaker 2 (26:29):
amazing to see.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, really I love that success story.
I love the idea of not workingon the weekends and being off
when you're truly off.
I think that's so hard for someof us.
Do you believe in?
I'll ask you this do youbelieve that a lot of us make
emergencies in our head whenreally things aren't that
(26:51):
emergent?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Absolutely, and that is a symptom of burnout.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
It is.
So there's a lot of cognitivesymptoms of burnout, and when
everything seems urgent, whenyou have the inability to relax,
even when you can, like, thoseare all things that are symptoms
of burnout that people don'treally recognize, because that's
kind of our culture.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, Our culture hides a lot of these symptoms
and so when it's hard torecognize, like, oh, am I
actually burnt out or is am Ijust an American?
Like am I just like, do I justhave a job and kids?
And like life's busy and I haveno idea what's for dinner you
know, the regular life kind ofhides that sometimes, but yes,
(27:41):
that is a total symptom.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, wow.
What are some other symptomsthat are kind of like surprising
?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Oh yeah, I have like a whole worksheet.
Oh, cool, feels urgent.
We talked about being resentful, not having energy to do things
(28:13):
that you once enjoyed.
There's an inability to stopthose ruminating thoughts sleep
disturbances, eatingdisturbances, self-medication,
either with food or drugs oralcohol, or you know just
unhealthy behaviors.
Shopping, shopping, scrollingyeah, the doom scrolling, oh
(28:39):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah, those can all be symptoms, but you know, one
of the big ones is everythingseems urgent and everything
seems important and theinability to prioritize.
One of the other things is oneof the symptoms I look for is if
someone can not see the future,like future in time, like the
(29:01):
shorter in time they can reallysee, like if it's like all right
, they can't really see past twoweeks and they don't have
long-term goals or they're likeI don't know, there's like a one
day when I retire, but theydon't have anything in between
and any goals.
That's a symptom of burnout too, cause they're just like I just
(29:22):
have to deal with what's infront of me.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
That's a wrap, y'all.
I'm about to go do a littledopamine detox because Lord
knows I need it.
If you want to learn more aboutthat, google it.
It's so interesting.
If this conversation hit youright in your crispy, overworked
soul, go find Jessica onInstagram and also come follow
(29:45):
me.
Come say hey, I love hearingwhat landed for you, what came
up for you when you listened tothis episode.
Slide into my DMs and let meknow what burnout symptom hit
you a little too close to home.
And hey, if you've taken twominutes out of your life to
subscribe or follow Not yourTherapist, and maybe you even
have left me a five-star reviewwherever you're listening.
(30:07):
Thank you so much, you freakingrock.
That support means everything.
I'm gonna catch you on the nextepisode.
Right Bye.
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