Dr. Larry Waldman brings decades of forensic psychology experience to this raw, insightful conversation about the hidden casualties of divorce – the children caught in the crossfire between warring parents. Drawing from twenty years as the expert judges called on during high-conflict custody battles, Dr. Waldman exposes the psychological damage inflicted when parents prioritize their hurt feelings over their children's wellbeing.
"Kids are born naked and naive. What they see in their home, as far as they're concerned, is their reality," Dr. Waldman explains. When that reality fractures during divorce, children experience profound disorientation and insecurity. The conversation delves deep into parental behaviors that create what he calls a "loyalty squeeze" – when children feel torn between two people they love, unsure who to trust or believe.
The episode reveals startling patterns: children's academic performance dropping, social withdrawal, depression, eating and sleeping disturbances – all stemming from being caught in parental conflict. Perhaps most eye-opening is Dr. Waldman's observation that alienated children often reach adolescence or young adulthood and suddenly realize they've been manipulated, sometimes cutting off the alienating parent entirely.
Beyond alienation, we explore other common "sins" divorcing parents commit: fighting in front of children, using them as confidants, the "Disney parent" syndrome, and rushing into new relationships (explaining why second marriages fail at an alarming 65% rate). Dr. Waldman offers practical, compassionate strategies for protecting children during separation – speaking positively about your ex, maintaining consistency between households, and seeking professional support.
Whether you're navigating divorce, supporting someone who is, or processing your own experience as a child of divorced parents, this conversation offers validation, clarity and a roadmap for breaking destructive patterns. As Dr. Waldman wisely concludes: "You have to put the kids' needs first."
👉 Grab your FREE Audio Training: Get Unstuck- 3 Strategies to Break Free from Unhealthy Patterns
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kayla (00:00):
Hey, hey, welcome back to Not your Therapist.
This is the podcast where wetalk about life's mess, magic
and everything in between.
I'm your host, kayla Riley.
I'm a licensed therapist.
I grew my practice from theground up and now it's a
successful practice here inNorth Carolina.
I'm a mama and I'm a cyclebreaker in chief.
Today's episodes, for anyonewho's been through a divorce, is
(00:23):
navigating one now or grew upin the fallout of their parents'
messy ass split.
I'm talking with the legendaryDr Larry Waldman, phd in
psychology, former privatepractice psychologist in Phoenix
, arizona, and a forensicpsychologist with decades I mean
decades of experience in thefamily court system.
(00:46):
For the last 20 years of hiscareer, dr Waldman was the one
that judges called in duringhigh conflict divorces to assess
families, make recommendationson custody, and he always did it
with the kids' best interestsat heart.
I honestly wish every singlecourt system had someone like Dr
Waldman.
(01:06):
I definitely know that theydon't have that here in North
Carolina, or they didn't backwhen my parents got divorced.
Let's be real when immatureadults are fighting over money
and custody, the biggestcasualties are the children and
no parent means to do thatintentionally to their children.
I've seen it in my personal life.
My parents that intentionallyto their children.
I've seen it in my personallife.
(01:26):
My parents went through a messydivorce.
I've seen it over and overagain in my career.
I've helped many parents walkthis walk, either during the
divorce or afterwards, trying tokind of correct the emotional
wounds that they left their kids, even though they didn't mean
to.
It's a very painful experienceand I've also seen it again and
(01:48):
again with therapists that Imentor and support in my
practice, because it justhappens all the time.
In this episode, we're going toget real about what not to do
during a divorce or after adivorce if you don't want to
mess your kids up, or after adivorce, if you don't want to
mess your kids up, and, moreimportantly, how to do it better
.
We talk about emotional wounds,bad boundaries, parentification
(02:15):
, estrangement and anxietydisorders that often stem from
being caught in the middle.
And even if you're not adivorced parent, I want you to
listen, especially if you're anadult child of divorce.
This conversation is going togive you so much insight,
clarity and validation aroundwhat you might've experienced
growing up.
Also, can I just say that DrWaldman is a gem, like I,
(02:36):
low-key, want him to be mygrandpa.
Let's get to it.
What do you see as thedifference between a healthy
divorce and more of a toxicdivorce?
Dr. Waldman (02:47):
One, of course, is the major difference, of course,
is the ongoing conflict,unfortunately for about 20% of
couples going through divorce.
You know, once the paperwork isfiled and they're officially
(03:08):
separated, it doesn't end.
In fact, sometimes it's likejust the beginning.
It appears and I have accused anumber of people over the years
.
You know that.
You know that they want todivorce and they want to seek
revenge, if you will, ormartyrdom, if you will.
(03:30):
Look what I put up with.
Kayla (03:33):
Yeah, I think that's very , very true.
Dr. Waldman (03:36):
Yeah, it doesn't go down well, and so the fighting,
the fighting continues and, asI said, the fighting continues
and, as I said, often if you'redoing that, the kids are dragged
through it as well, and that isvery troublesome and it's
(04:00):
essentially traumatic to thechildren.
They didn't ask for it, unlessthey're maybe preteens or
teenagers and they know a littlemore.
It's a shock to them.
Remember, kids are born, as Ilike to say, naked and naive.
(04:20):
What they see in their home, asfar as they're concerned, is
their reality.
They don't know if it's good,bad or indifferent.
I mean, as far as they'reconcerned, this happens
everywhere.
And then one day they have thatfateful meeting in the living
room where dad is sitting therewith his luggage and he's
(04:46):
leaving and it like blows themout of the water.
Yeah, they have lots ofquestions and lots of fears and
so on, and unfortunately itdoesn't end there.
Kayla (05:02):
And what about?
So?
I know that from my perspective, a therapeutic perspective, I
see a lot of damage done whenone parent kind of bad mouths
the other parent, either infront of the kids or to the kids
.
Could you talk about that Likewhy is it so tempting from a
parent's perspective and from achild's perspective?
(05:22):
How does that really impactthem?
Dr. Waldman (05:25):
Well, there's a number of sins, if you will,
that parents in these situationscommit, and certainly
alienation is right up there,Speaking badly about the other
(05:53):
parent to the kid.
What it does, you see, is itreally puts the child in an
awkward position.
Who are they supposed tobelieve?
Who are they supposed to beloyal to Remember, up until that
(06:15):
fateful day when the separationactually occurred?
As far as the child wasconcerned, they had the two best
parents in the world.
They had the best mom in theworld.
They had the two best parentsin the world.
They had the best mom in theworld they had the best dad in
the world and their parents hadthe best marriage in the world,
because that's all they onlyknew.
Now, all of a sudden, the bestmom in the world, just saying
(06:41):
and it happens both ways thebest mom in the world is making
critical comments about the bestdad in the world, just saying
and it happens both ways thebest mom in the world is making
critical comments about the bestdad in the world.
What, why, what happened?
As far as the kids concerned,the world is turned upside down.
Black is white, white is black,and so on and so forth, and the
(07:10):
kid is caught, the kids arecaught in what we refer to as a
loyalty squeeze.
You know who are they to be, whoare they to remain loyal to,
and so on.
Kayla (07:18):
It's very hard.
Dr. Waldman (07:23):
It really shakes them to the core.
And parents do this becausethey're angry.
They've probably, by the timethey're divorced, have said
every bad word they can think ofnumerous times, so there's
nothing else to say.
But if they can use the kidsagainst, or the kid against the
(07:58):
other parent, aha, that's a newweapon.
And they do that.
Frankly, it's selfish.
It times kids caught in thesesituations.
Their schoolwork drops off,they become depressed themselves
, they stop being social, theybecome irritable, they stop
(08:22):
eating, sleeping and so forth.
Lots of issues occur Now,having been in this field for
decades.
I've seen the end of this andwhat happens many times is one
of the parents is is eight.
(08:50):
One of the parents is and Idon't want to demean moms, but
it happens more with moms anddads, primarily because the kids
typically are spending moretime with mom than with dad.
But dads do it too, that's forsure so what happens, though, is
there comes a time in theirchild's adolescence or maybe
(09:11):
even young adulthood, or itmight even occur when the child
themselves become a parent.
Somewhere in there fromadolescence to that point, the
kid gets the recognition, therealization that mom or dad
(09:33):
manipulated me and kept me fromthe other parent, and then all
hell breaks loose.
I've seen it where a momalienated a child and kept the
child away from their fatherbecause the child said well, I
(09:55):
want nothing to do with him, youknow he's a, and so on.
But by the time he startedcollege, the realization came.
Wait a minute.
Here my mom took advantage ofme and I wasn't allowed to have
a relationship with his father,and the kid reversed the
(10:21):
situation, strove to have arelationship with his father and
now cut off his mother.
So the mother basically shotherself in the foot.
Kayla (10:37):
Yes, she had the kid for 10 years all to herself, but not
for the rest of her life.
Well, and an undue burden onthe child.
Right, absolutely Well.
And what would you say to thosemoms who are saying, yeah, but
he's a narcissist and he cheatedon me and he wasn't there for,
you know, my kids, or hecanceled last minute on the
visitations all the time Like Iwas trying to protect my child?
(10:58):
What would you say to thatparent?
Dr. Waldman (11:02):
Well, remember, you know you can be a lousy spouse
and a decent parent.
And that's you know that's whatit is.
I mean the, you know the now,if we're talking true abuse,
right.
Okay, that's a different story,but most of the time it's not,
(11:24):
and so the child deserves tohave a relationship with the
other parent.
Kayla (11:39):
Well, and I think that children should be allowed the
dignity to discover who bothparents are on their own terms
and in their own time, right.
So I think a lot of momsinfluence like, oh well, I want
them to see.
And it's like, well, wait asecond, that's not your journey.
You had an opportunity to getto know both of your parents and
(12:00):
I think when you become anadult, you start to have new
realizations and new insightsabout both of your parents, who
they are as people, and therecomes a reckoning for most of us
, and most of us have to processthis in therapy or you know, or
in our own relationships orwhatever that environment is.
(12:21):
However, if a parent robs youof that opportunity, what does
that do to your identity andyour?
You know whether you think yourco-parent is a good parent or
not.
You're not in control.
Dr. Waldman (12:41):
Absolutely.
I've heard it said.
You know that, of course, whenone parent is criticizing the
other parent of the child, thatparent is literally criticizing
50 percent of that kid's genes,so that kid's being essentially
criticized as well.
By the way, to add to thisformula, if you will, what about
(13:08):
the grandparents Interestingand being a grandparent?
Fortunately, my kids haven'tgone through this, but I worked
with grandparents in thissituation where the parent who's
doing the alienation, if youwill, not only is cutting off
(13:29):
the child from the other parentbut also from the other parent's
parents.
Yeah, and I've had situationsin fact I've even been in court
about that where thegrandparents had a lovely
connection with the children butfollowing the divorce, the
other parent, you know,prevented that relationship to
(13:49):
continue.
Yeah, and they went to courtabout it.
Kayla (13:55):
Well, and I would even say that's true in the reverse,
like I think a lot ofgrandparents talk a lot of smack
about.
So, like you know, if dad andmom split up, dad's parents
inadvertently say a lot ofnegative comments about mom, and
so I think they can be part ofthis equation as well, on both
(14:19):
sides.
One, they can be alienated fromthe child, but also, I think,
they can be the alienators.
Dr. Waldman (14:27):
Absolutely.
And as a parenting coordinator,many times I would have the
grandparent, I would have asession with the grandparents as
well and if there was andyou're right, that does happen,
(15:09):
and you're right, that doeshappen and I would make it very
clear, you know, if they want tomaintain some kind of semblance
of relationship with theirgrand, again they're harming
themselves.
Because I will ask, as aparenting coordinator, I had
lots of authority and I wouldmeet with the kid and say you
know well, how was it withgrandpa and grandma and so forth
?
By the way, did they sayanything about?
And if I'm hearing that theyare, you know, I'll send a
letter to the judge that, hey,I've warned the grandparents not
to do it, they're continuing todo it.
(15:29):
These visitations should belimited or supervised.
Kayla (15:36):
What state are you in?
Because I do not hear of a lotof psychologists being involved
in these divorce cases toprotect the kids' interests.
I think it's wonderful.
Dr. Waldman (15:48):
Arizona, maricopa County, okay.
Kayla (15:50):
By the way.
Dr. Waldman (15:51):
Maricopa County is the divorce capital of the world
.
No kidding, something to beproud of.
More divorces are filed inMaricopa County than anywhere
else in the nation.
Kayla (16:03):
Oh my gosh, that's sad.
Well, that maybe that was whythe courts involved
psychologists.
But I really think that allcustody and divorce kind of
situations could really use thatservice, because there is so
much damage done and I think alot of times I think parents
give themselves justification ofwhy they are poisoning the.
(16:31):
Well, if you will.
Dr. Waldman (16:34):
Well, unfortunately , from from the get go, it's set
up this way and you knowdivorces handle the same way as
a criminal case you have to findsomebody guilty.
You know it's the prosecutoragainst the other side, the
(17:01):
other side, and that's reallynot the way it should be done as
far as I'm concerned.
I agree.
Now there is a new movement I'mnot sure if you're familiar
with it called collaborativedivorce.
Kayla (17:18):
Interesting.
Dr. Waldman (17:20):
It is relatively new.
It's been around a couple ofyears now and certainly it's
well.
It's nationwide.
Kayla (17:31):
Okay.
Dr. Waldman (17:36):
And I've spoken for them, In fact my message to
them is they need to do bettermarketing.
So here's a good example.
Kayla (17:43):
Yeah right, Totally, I think it's.
I had never heard of that and Ithink that's really interesting
.
I've heard of mediators.
Dr. Waldman (17:57):
Uh-oh, dr Waldman, you froze An office.
There you're back, sorry.
Okay, an office will haveseveral attorneys, where dad
gets his attorney, mom gets herattorney in from the same office
, so they get their needsaddressed.
(18:18):
But the two attorneys areactually working in concert to
do what's best for the familyand what's in the best interest
of the children.
Kayla (18:30):
I think that's amazing.
That's wonderful Because Ireally do think that divorce,
the biggest victim of a divorce,is the children.
It always is All right.
So you mentioned earlier thereare several sins when you're
divorcing.
If you're a parent, could youtalk more about what are the
other ones?
So one is bad mouthing yourspouse.
Dr. Waldman (18:52):
Well, you know starting, you know it's it's
first off.
When do you tell the kid kidsthat you know divorce is
occurring again, that there's nohard and fast rules?
You know, just as I said,bringing them in that evening in
(19:15):
the living room and dad sittingthere, you know, and mom's
starting to cry and dad'slooking for Lauren and he's got
a packed bag and so forth andhe's leaving.
That's a shock age of the kids,of course.
(19:39):
To let them know that you knowmom and dad have decided, you
know, that they're going to liveapart.
Now there's some importantthings to you know.
Assure the child One you knowit wasn't their fault and kids
will think so.
Two, it's not because they'rebad or they or they did anything
, that they're, they're going tobe taken care of and that just
(20:01):
because dad is leaving, or dadis dad and mom are divorcing,
dad isn't divorcing you.
Kayla (20:07):
Right.
Dr. Waldman (20:08):
So assure the child that they're going to be taken
care of, they're not to beblaming themselves, and so forth
.
So those are important things.
The other major sin that wedidn't address is to fight in
front of the kid.
(20:29):
Oh my God, I mean when thechild is right there and they're
going at it and so forth.
I mean again what's the kidsupposed to do?
Kayla (20:42):
Right.
Dr. Waldman (20:43):
How does that make you feel?
The best mom in the world andthe best dad in the world are
now in combat, and what am Idoing.
You know what does that meanabout me?
I mean it shakes them to thecore.
Yeah, who's?
Who's taking care of me?
These people look like they'reout of control.
(21:05):
What's?
Kayla (21:07):
going to happen to me.
And so where the child?
Where are you going to live?
Dr. Waldman (21:15):
Many times when the divorce occurs or separation
occurs, they, they make changesin their living, and that's hard
on the kid.
Kayla (21:26):
Yeah.
Dr. Waldman (21:27):
And what we try to say is at least try to stay in
the same neighborhood so thekids have the same friends and
can attend the same school.
To have the shock of divorceand then go to the other side of
the city where they don't haveany friends and they're starting
a new school, maybe right evenin the middle of the year.
(21:47):
Oh, my goodness, what, how muchyou know, how much stress are
you going to put on these kids?
Yeah, you don't want to do that.
Kayla (22:00):
Well, again we get back to this selfishness.
Like you're doing that for you,you're not doing that for your
children.
Dr. Waldman (22:10):
Well, yes, sometimes.
So we say, ideally, here's theideal.
The parents should live withinwalking distance of each other
so that the kids could actuallykids could actually go back and
forth.
That's not possible, but that'sthe ideal and that the kids
(22:35):
could have regular contact witheach parent.
The parenting plan should beflexible.
If something comes up, you canask the other parent hey, could
(22:58):
you take over?
Blah, blah, blah, and so on.
I often recommend thatexchanges are done in neutral
spots.
Instead of going to one person,you know, one parent's house
and picking the kids up andtaking them from there you know
to the other house which remindsthe kid you know I'm going from
one house to another, you knowis make the exchange after
(23:19):
school or at the daycare centeror someplace.
Kayla (23:22):
I think exchanges is probably it's got to be on your
list of sins, because I haveheard many a horror story about
the exchange becoming this awful, like, for example, clothes,
like not bringing the clotheswith them that they need and
then the mom's in a pickle orthe dad's in a pickle because
(23:44):
they don't have what they needto go to soccer practice or, and
it's all this stress or youknow, asking a parent hey, can
you help me this weekend?
I've got plans, and the otherpartner saying tough, tough
cookies, you left me, it's notmy job, right?
Like.
Dr. Waldman (24:03):
Exactly no, you're absolutely right.
No in fact, we suggest that youknow let's you know that their
clothes there should be.
I know it's expensive, but setsof clothes should be in both
places.
Kayla (24:19):
Yeah.
Dr. Waldman (24:20):
I've even recommended many times that we
speak with the teacher in theschool and that the books school
books are in both places.
Let's face it, how many timesdo kids living in intact
families, you know, forget theirbook at school, or this or that
, or their homework, theymisplace their homework or
whatever, and they're goingcrazy about it.
Can you imagine now doublingthat because they've got two
(24:43):
places?
Oh, my God, I got.
I got this essay that's duetomorrow, but I left it at dance
.
You know the kids don't needthis, of course, totally.
You know the kids don't needthis, of course, totally, so you
know, so that the kidsshouldn't have to pack up to go
to the other parent.
Kayla (25:01):
The clothes should be there.
I resonate with that.
It's adding to a child's mentalburden and if you already are
separating, that's already hardenough to have an absence of one
of their main caregivers, havean absence of one of their main
caregivers and then on top ofthat you're and I think a lot of
parents think like theirassumption is well, that's their
responsibility, it's theirstuff, and it's like well, wait
(25:24):
a second, If you weren'tdivorced, they wouldn't have to
have this extra mental load.
Dr. Waldman (25:30):
Right yeah.
No, it's more of a burden onthe parent.
But again you chose to havethese kids.
You guys decided to getdivorced, and so it's your
responsibility to make this aseasy as possible.
It shows that kids who comefrom these kinds of divorce
(26:01):
situations and so forth are morelikely to have divorces
themselves, and so you know wedon't want to do that, yeah,
because it's going to perpetuate.
You know this process For sure,this, this process for sure.
Um, you know, there there arealso, uh, more subtle things
(26:21):
that parents need to be carefulof.
Um, you don't uh want tointerrogate the child, uh, when
he or she comes back from avisitation.
Some parents do that.
Kayla (26:31):
Oh, they start well how was your visit with dad.
Dr. Waldman (26:34):
Oh, yeah, okay um.
Was there anything new indaddy's house?
Kayla (26:40):
what did you eat?
Did he spend time with?
Dr. Waldman (26:43):
anyone.
Uh-huh, yeah, oh, daddy got anew tv.
Really, oh, he can afford a tv,can he?
Uh, okay, you know, and Okay.
And so now the kids?
Okay, you can see the kid going.
What do I see?
Now the father may be sayingdon't tell your mother anything.
Kayla (27:05):
Oh, and that's the worst thing to say to a child.
Dr. Waldman (27:10):
And then, of course , mother is asking but you can't
use the kid as a spy.
Yes, please tell me if there'sanything new there in daddy's
house or whatever.
Those are those subtle games,but it still puts the kid in a
vice.
Kayla (27:31):
What do I?
Dr. Waldman (27:31):
do?
Who do I listen to?
Who am I loyal to?
Kayla (27:35):
This is crazy.
Dr. Waldman (27:36):
It's very stressful and, by the way, when they
become teens, a normal teenthinks their parents are nuts
and stupid.
Anyhow.
Okay, it just goes with theterritory.
Now, if you put a teen in thissituation, he's right or she's
(27:59):
right, and they don't put upwith this.
Talk about angry teenagers.
I've seen them when this crapoccurs.
Oh.
Kayla (28:10):
I'm sure, I'm sure.
Well, what about, like theDisney parent thing, like the
parent who's always the funparent and oh, mom, doesn't let
us eat this.
Well, you're not at mom's house, you can have whatever you want
.
Like I think that's another sinthat happens frequently and
isn't looked as bad, but itreally does create the stress
(28:32):
for the child bad, but it reallydoes create the stress for the
child.
Dr. Waldman (28:41):
Absolutely, you're right, it's on my list, exactly.
You know mom's trying to limitscreen time, for instance, which
is probably a good thing, andwhen it goes to dad's house, you
know TV all day long or screentime all day long.
Mom's trying to have the kideat a decent diet, and no, we're
going to.
You know burgers and hot dogsand ice cream and candy, and so
(29:04):
you know, and dad's doing that.
One because maybe it's easier,but two, you know he's really
trying to be the favorite parent.
You know, no, there shouldn'tbe a favorite parent.
You know what kind of crap isthat, and so on.
Yeah, that's not supposed to bea competition.
(29:25):
So again now, of course, thekids will gladly do that.
Oh, yeah, you know, can I havecandy?
What kid will say oh, no I can'thave candy because mom thinks
it's not good for my teeth.
Kayla (29:38):
I have to stop playing video games.
Mom doesn't want me to do this.
Dr. Waldman (29:42):
Exactly, of course they'll do it, but or completing
the homework, yeah.
Kayla (29:51):
I had dad say look.
Dr. Waldman (29:52):
I have limited contact with my kids.
I'm not going to spend time,you know, helping him with his
homework.
Kayla (30:00):
Right Bingo.
Dr. Waldman (30:02):
And I would say well, you have a choice.
See, as a parenting coordinator, if I'm appointed by the judge,
I can make legal decisions.
First, I have to clear it withthe judge, but nine times out of
10, the judge is going to agreeto anything I say.
Once they know me and they didyeah and so forth.
And a father who would saysomething like that?
(30:24):
I'd say look, you know, if youwanted to have your visitation
with the kid, then you know,sunday night, you know his
homework needs to be done.
Kayla (30:34):
And if it's not?
Dr. Waldman (30:36):
then you'll have to bring him home about noon on
Sunday, so he will have the timeto complete his homework when
he's with mom.
That's your decision.
Kayla (30:46):
Well, think about what disservice you're doing to your
children if they're learninglike mom is a or you know, dad,
whatever.
Let's switch the example justso that I don't sound sexist.
But let's say, for example,dad's the unfun parent because
he makes you have homework andhe's making sure you're eating
healthy and making sure you'regoing to your doctor's
(31:06):
appointments and you're going tosleep on time, and then you go
to mom's house and you can stayup late, you can play you want.
She doesn't care if you haveaccess to a cell phone or
whatever.
Think about the disserviceyou're creating for this child.
They're learning this black orwhite way of living.
They're not learning thediscipline of balance, right of
(31:28):
a little fun, a littleresponsibility there, and
they're also witnessing fightingwith unhealthy extremes.
Dr. Waldman (31:41):
The world is crazy.
It really is.
That's what the kid comes toconclude they're insecure.
Kayla (31:49):
I mean kids want to feel rooted.
Dr. Waldman (31:54):
They like things to be the same.
They want to know they're caredfor and there's stability in
their world.
And when they're caught in thiskind of cyclone, it's not good
for them.
Kids in this situation are notgoing to do their homework on
time, are not going to sit inclass and pay good attention, et
(32:15):
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
No, their head's going to bespinning.
They're going to be upset,dysregulated and so on.
Kayla (32:25):
I mean this is just unhealthy for them and I think
it's important for people tohear this, because I think that
a lot of times, parents are soit's not.
I don't think.
Hold on, I'm so sorry, my catis demanding lunch.
I'm going to go lock her awayso that the microphone does not
(32:45):
pick up this cat.
No, ma'am, no ma'am, no ma'am.
Sorry about that, Dr Wildman.
(33:06):
The curses of working from homeright.
Dr. Waldman (33:09):
Yeah right, I remember a case I had where this
very bright kid was near thetop of his high school class and
his parents both of whom weredoctors, by the way, and should
have known better, you know gotinto this terrific uh uh uh,
conflicted divorce and and thekids shut down.
(33:33):
It's just a senior year, youknow.
Scholarships were, were alreadyyou know, becoming a parent, a
parent and so forth, and finallythey brought the kid to me and
I had a long talk with the kidand look, I, you know.
I certainly I understood wherehe was coming from.
(33:55):
But I basically said to him youknow, you know, tom, you can't
let your parents' divorce ruinyour life.
If you can graduate near thetop of your class, go to any
college in the country that youwant on a scholarship, no less
(34:16):
or not.
So you finally managed to pullit together.
Kayla (34:22):
It's so hard for kids, so they have such a limited scope
of vision and a limitedperspective, whereas parents
were supposed to be these guides.
But I was trying to say earlierI think, no, I don't think any
parent wakes up and says I'mgoing to pit my kid against my
partner and I'm going topsychologically distress my
(34:45):
child because I'm hurting.
Like.
I don't think it's a consciousprocess, I think it's.
I think it's hurting, hurtingpeople hurt people and I think
that people get lost in theirown psychodramas, the things
that are happening in their head, right, so I don't think any
parent wants to harm their child.
(35:06):
I just think that people getlost in the conflict and the
emotion of these situations.
Dr. Waldman (35:12):
Exactly.
Yeah, I agree with that.
It's not malicious in mostcases, right Simple things like
the child is getting ready to goto the other parent and so on,
and the parent who's letting goof the child.
Well, I hope it's OK.
(35:34):
I'm really going to miss you.
I'm going to be lonely.
I'll wait for you to come back.
You know, you know now, andthat may be true, but you know
now that what, what's the childsupposed to think?
Well, I don't want this parentto feel lonely without me.
(35:55):
You know and, and you know andand and and and.
When the parent says I hopeyou'll be okay over there, I was
like wait a minute.
Kayla (36:04):
What's going on over there?
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Waldman (36:06):
Yes, you know and so, but again, that isn't
malicious.
The parent didn't say that.
That's perhaps how they felt.
Right, you can see how thatimpacts the child Now on the
reverse side sometimes what?
Happens sometimes is in adivorce, you know, because again
(36:27):
the person you used to speak tothe other adult is no longer
there.
Sometimes parents mistakenlystart using the child as a
confidant.
Kayla (36:40):
I think that's something I see a lot of in therapeutic
environments is parents treatingtheir children as partners, as
therapists, as friends, and it'slike your child is not your
friend.
They cannot hold, they don'thave the mental capacity, the
(37:01):
emotional strength, theresilience to be an equal to you
.
They are not your equal.
Exactly the best friendsyndrome, right, like my child's
, my best friend.
Well, they're 16.
They shouldn't be your bestfriend, they should be your
child.
Dr. Waldman (37:17):
Right, Well, and of course it's very confusing.
Like you said, it's a confusionof roles.
Am I your best friend now?
(37:38):
But then why are you telling?
Kayla (37:39):
me to go make my bed Just a minute.
You don't tell best friends tomake your bed, so it creates
lots of confusion and so on.
Or dating lives I see that alot too, where parents, you know
, have their kids writing theirdating profiles and telling them
about their dates, and that'sjust not appropriate.
This child hasn't even learnedthe landscape of dating
themselves.
Dr. Waldman (37:58):
Speaking of dating, of course that raises a whole
new set of issues, because youknow, when the other parent gets
wind of the fact that you knowtheir ex or soon to be ex, you
know is seeing somebody you know, the fur can begin to fly oh
(38:18):
yeah, once again.
Kayla (38:34):
Now one basic mistake, that a lot of people make in
this situation is they pair upfar too quickly.
Dr. Waldman (38:38):
Somebody you once cared for has left you, rejected
you.
It hurts.
This is a couple's world.
You don't typically go to themovie alone.
You don't go to a nicerestaurant alone.
You don't typically vacationalone.
You prefer to be coupled.
(39:00):
I get that.
I realize that.
I realize that.
But so often what happens ispeople rush into a new
relationship.
And the data is very clear thedivorce rate for first marriages
(39:22):
in this country runs currentlybetween 45 and 50 percent.
Kayla (39:27):
Wow, that's high.
Dr. Waldman (39:29):
Yeah, well, that's where it is unfortunately, and
it's been that way a long time.
Covid made it even worse.
All this togetherness, yeah, Ican see that.
But second marriages, you knowyou would think you're older,
you're wiser, you should knowmore.
Blah, blah, blah.
No 65.
(39:50):
Two out of three fail.
Wow.
And the reason for that andpart of it is we, we couple too
quickly.
Kayla (40:00):
And you're coupling from a place of hurt and emptiness,
you're not coupling from a placeof wholeness and togetherness,
right?
I resonate with what you'resaying.
I see that a lot.
I also see people who couplewith other people and try to
shove it in the other partner'sface Like, see, I've moved on
(40:22):
and it's like, okay, good foryou, but that's not why you
should be in a relationship.
Dr. Waldman (40:28):
And think of all the attachments you have here.
You know, you now have a child,a confused one at that, or
children, so you got.
Now you got step kids, and soforth.
Also you know you have, you'rebringing along, your
(40:49):
grandparents are coming along,and now this new person also has
grandparents and they probablywould like some connection you
know with, with these new kidsand so forth, and the same thing
may happen on the other side aswell.
So come Thanksgiving, where yougo for dinner, I don't know.
(41:09):
I mean, you need a spreadsheetto figure it out.
Kayla (41:14):
Yeah, Well, and a lot of times these kids, the family
home no longer exists because itwas sold or everyone moved or
whatever.
So it's like where's your home?
Well, there's the stepmom andher family, and then there's
stepdad, and then there's momand there's.
It just becomes so complex.
There's all of theserelationships and attachments to
(41:36):
navigate and I think a lot oftimes parents see their kids
acting okay and assumeeverything's fine.
It's like, oh well, how's your10-year-old dealing with the
divorce?
Oh, they seem okay, they seemfine.
And it's like that's not.
The best indicator to knowwhether a child is
(41:57):
psychologically healthy is howthey appear at first glance.
Would you agree with that?
Dr. Waldman (42:03):
Yeah Well, the kid's trying to hold it together
.
Yeah, best he can or she can.
Yeah, you know, there's aninteresting phenomenon, you know
, and we see it a lot where aperson you know quick, quickly,
pairs up and you take a look atthis person and you have to do a
(42:25):
double take because he or sheactually looks a lot like the
first one.
Interesting, we see a lot.
Well, if we take an analyticperspective here for just a
moment although I'm typicallyknown as a behavioral
psychologist but if we, if welook at it this way, you know
(42:51):
what, what we, what most peopledo, is pay little attention,
okay, to their role in thedissolution of the first
relationship.
Nine times, 99 times out of 100, if you ask that person, how
come you got divorced?
(43:11):
It's the other person's fault.
Very, very, very seldom do theylook in the mirror and say well,
you know, maybe I did this or Icould have done this, and so,
no, it's the other person'sfault.
So what do they do?
They take whatever dynamicsthey own, okay, that that you
(43:35):
know, uh, cause damage in thefirst relationship and throw
them right into the second oneimmediately.
And that's one of the reasonswhy the divorce rate for second
marriages is so high, becausewe're taking the same crap and
(43:57):
throwing it there, yeah, we'reground into these unhealthy
dynamics of how we relate toothers and then we just carry it
.
Kayla (44:08):
And of course we, if we don't heal, we're attracting the
familiar love as well.
If you're attracted to adominating critical man and you
haven't healed anything aboutyourself, you're going to
attract a dominating criticalman again the next time, right?
Dr. Waldman (44:24):
Right, you know they say there's four things
that you know that trouble mostrelationships, you know money,
sex, in-laws, kids.
Okay, those are the four thingsthat most couples struggle with
.
So well, take a look at that Ifyou're coming out of a divorce,
(44:46):
particularly a conflicted one.
Money I can't tell you how manysituations I've had
professionally, you know, wherethe second marriage is already
in trouble because the father ispaying a pocket full of child
support and spousal maintenanceand the new wife or new
(45:09):
girlfriend is going wait aminute, you know, a couple
thousand dollars a month isgoing out the door, and I don't
even know these people.
We need money here.
So you've got the money issue.
The sex issue?
Well, you know, we know they'vebeen with somebody else and so
forth.
It is tough and so on, andthat's you know, those are the
(45:49):
reasons why second marriagesjust fail so continuously.
Kayla (45:56):
Okay, so let's shift gears here.
What are some simple thingsparents can think of doing in
order to foster health in theirchildren if they're going
through a divorce or they aredivorced?
What are some things you coulddo that would be positive and
(46:16):
strengthening for the kids?
Dr. Waldman (46:19):
Sure, good question .
Speak positively about your ex,and so on.
Continue to assure them thatthey're going to be taken care
of, they can ask any questions,that if they want to see or call
their other parent, theyabsolutely can do that and
(46:42):
you'll get out of the room.
They can speak, you know,privately, and so forth, if they
want to go over there forsomething fine.
I'll drive you over.
You know, if daddy's good atmaking uh whatever, we'll go to
daddy's house and you we'll getyou get your project done for
school, you, you know, and so on.
(47:03):
You know those kinds of thingsgo a long way you know to
putting the kid at ease.
Yeah, those are important.
Kayla (47:16):
That's wonderful.
I think another thing that Iheard from our conversation
earlier is making sure you'retaking care of your own feelings
, aside from the kid.
Like, don't you know, you mightbe going through a struggle or
a conflict or you might reallydislike your ex.
However, you have therapistsfor that, you have friends for
(47:38):
that, you have private time forthat.
Do not expect your kids to besupportive of your feelings
towards your ex, because it'snone of the kid's business
really or four.
Dr. Waldman (48:09):
If you're going through a divorce, even a
congenial one, and so on, Istill recommend that you see a
therapist, and your kids shouldas well.
I mean, this is what it's allabout.
I mean, breaking up divorce isone of the most difficult things
.
It's highest on the stressscale.
Kayla (48:27):
Yeah for sure.
Well, it changes everything,right.
It changes our day-to-day lives.
Dr. Waldman (48:33):
Absolutely.
Okay so yeah, so yes, seeing asupportive therapist to help you
through this and the kids isvery important.
Yes, and again, if you'recontemplating divorce, look into
this collaborative approach.
Kayla (48:54):
I know, that sounds so cool.
Dr. Waldman (48:56):
As opposed to the adversarial approach.
Right, you know, some of theseattorneys you know say hey, I'll
you know I'm going to get youevery dime.
You know we can, you know we'regoing to ground, grind him into
the ground.
Kayla (49:09):
You know, you know we're going to make him pay, you know,
and some people oh, that's goodWell no, it's not good.
Dr. Waldman (49:18):
Because, yeah, maybe you might do that and so
forth, but remember it doesn'tend when the court session ends.
You're going to have to livethe rest of your life with this,
with a very angry ex-spouse,and your kids are going to be
caught in this as well.
(49:39):
That's not how you want to dothis, and so on.
I worked with lots of differentdivorce attorneys and you could
tell right away whether thisattorney really had the kids
welfare in mind or, as like Isaid, was a shark.
Kayla (50:00):
Well, I hate to say this, but lawyers are not in it
because they care aboutchildren's well-being.
Lawyers are typically in itbecause they want to make money.
Dr. Waldman (50:12):
Unfortunately.
Yes, and you know, strife meansbucks, that's right yeah.
The more motions you file moretimes you go into court.
I mean yeah.
But again it doesn't end welland it's hard on the kids.
(50:35):
Oh, by the way don't bring yourkid to court.
Kayla (50:40):
Oh yes, that's a good point I can't tell you.
Dr. Waldman (50:45):
There were a couple of cases that I was involved in
, and nothing ticks off a judgemore than to bring a child to
court.
Now, in a couple of instances,when the kid's a teenager and so
on, the judge might meet withthe child in what they call it
(51:05):
in camera, that is, you know, inthe judge's office, but not in
open court.
Then you of course bring thekid to court, but you know.
Kayla (51:16):
They made me testify against my dad in the divorce.
It was just awful traumatizingSure Can you imagine.
Dr. Waldman (51:29):
No, it's awful.
Yeah, I know I've been sittingin the back waiting for my
chance to testify and I've seensome of this and I'm just going.
Oh my God.
Fortunately the judges inPhoenix go through this, so much
(51:56):
they've learned they don't dothat.
Well, of course, I've been outof it now several years, but I
certainly saw it back in the day.
Kayla (52:08):
That's wonderful.
Dr. Waldman (52:09):
That's terrible to put a child on the stand
speaking against the otherparent.
Kayla (52:16):
Ugh yuck.
All right, Dr Waldman, if youcould give people one nugget of
advice, one gem from thispodcast, what are you hoping
they're going to hear?
Dr. Waldman (52:32):
You know you have to put the kids needs first.
It's not, maybe, a message thatthey want to hear, but they're
fragile but they're fragile.
This is a groundbreaking eventfor everybody, but for kids it
is the most To lose.
The best parents in the world,and so on is just mind-rattling.
Kayla (53:08):
So you have to take care of their needs first.
So there you have it what notto do in divorce and better ways
to protect your kids fromemotional fallout.
If you're an adult child of adivorce and you want support
unpacking the effects of adysfunctional upbringing and
learning how to show updifferently in your own life and
relationships, head over toKayla Rileycom.
I'd love to work with you.
(53:29):
I offer one-on-one coaching andit would be awesome.
Check it out.
You can also check out DrWaldman's book love your child
more than you hate your ex whatevery divorce parent needs to
know.
It's available now on Amazonand honestly required reading If
you're navigating divorce withkids in the mix.
You can connect with Dr Waldmanon LinkedIn.
(53:50):
He's semi-retired now, so whenhe's not chilling by the pool,
maybe he'll write you back.
And if you haven't alreadyconnected with me on Instagram,
please hop on over there.
I'm not your therapist dotKayla.
I want to hear what you thinkabout this episode and what came
up for you.
Thanks for hanging out with me.
Take care of yourself and yourkids and I'll catch you next
time on not your therapist.
Hey, hey, welcome back to Not your Therapist.
This is the podcast where wetalk about life's mess, magic
and everything in between.
I'm your host, kayla Riley.
I'm a licensed therapist.
I grew my practice from theground up and now it's a
successful practice here inNorth Carolina.
I'm a mama and I'm a cyclebreaker in chief.
Today's episodes, for anyonewho's been through a divorce, is
(00:23):
navigating one now or grew upin the fallout of their parents'
messy ass split.
I'm talking with the legendaryDr Larry Waldman, phd in
psychology, former privatepractice psychologist in Phoenix
, arizona, and a forensicpsychologist with decades I mean
decades of experience in thefamily court system.
(00:46):
For the last 20 years of hiscareer, dr Waldman was the one
that judges called in duringhigh conflict divorces to assess
families, make recommendationson custody, and he always did it
with the kids' best interestsat heart.
I honestly wish every singlecourt system had someone like Dr
Waldman.
(01:06):
I definitely know that theydon't have that here in North
Carolina, or they didn't backwhen my parents got divorced.
Let's be real when immatureadults are fighting over money
and custody, the biggestcasualties are the children and
no parent means to do thatintentionally to their children.
I've seen it in my personal life.
My parents that intentionallyto their children.
I've seen it in my personallife.
(01:26):
My parents went through a messydivorce.
I've seen it over and overagain in my career.
I've helped many parents walkthis walk, either during the
divorce or afterwards, trying tokind of correct the emotional
wounds that they left their kids, even though they didn't mean
to.
It's a very painful experienceand I've also seen it again and
(01:48):
again with therapists that Imentor and support in my
practice, because it justhappens all the time.
In this episode, we're going toget real about what not to do
during a divorce or after adivorce if you don't want to
mess your kids up, or after adivorce, if you don't want to
mess your kids up, and, moreimportantly, how to do it better
.
We talk about emotional wounds,bad boundaries, parentification
(02:15):
, estrangement and anxietydisorders that often stem from
being caught in the middle.
And even if you're not adivorced parent, I want you to
listen, especially if you're anadult child of divorce.
This conversation is going togive you so much insight,
clarity and validation aroundwhat you might've experienced
growing up.
Also, can I just say that DrWaldman is a gem, like I,
(02:36):
low-key, want him to be mygrandpa.
Let's get to it.
What do you see as thedifference between a healthy
divorce and more of a toxicdivorce?
Dr. Waldman (02:47):
One, of course, is the major difference, of course,
is the ongoing conflict,unfortunately for about 20% of
couples going through divorce.
You know, once the paperwork isfiled and they're officially
(03:08):
separated, it doesn't end.
In fact, sometimes it's likejust the beginning.
It appears and I have accused anumber of people over the years
.
You know that.
You know that they want todivorce and they want to seek
revenge, if you will, ormartyrdom, if you will.
(03:30):
Look what I put up with.
Kayla (03:33):
Yeah, I think that's very , very true.
Dr. Waldman (03:36):
Yeah, it doesn't go down well, and so the fighting,
the fighting continues and, asI said, the fighting continues
and, as I said, often if you'redoing that, the kids are dragged
through it as well, and that isvery troublesome and it's
(04:00):
essentially traumatic to thechildren.
They didn't ask for it, unlessthey're maybe preteens or
teenagers and they know a littlemore.
It's a shock to them.
Remember, kids are born, as Ilike to say, naked and naive.
(04:20):
What they see in their home, asfar as they're concerned, is
their reality.
They don't know if it's good,bad or indifferent.
I mean, as far as they'reconcerned, this happens
everywhere.
And then one day they have thatfateful meeting in the living
room where dad is sitting therewith his luggage and he's
(04:46):
leaving and it like blows themout of the water.
Yeah, they have lots ofquestions and lots of fears and
so on, and unfortunately itdoesn't end there.
Kayla (05:02):
And what about?
So?
I know that from my perspective, a therapeutic perspective, I
see a lot of damage done whenone parent kind of bad mouths
the other parent, either infront of the kids or to the kids
.
Could you talk about that Likewhy is it so tempting from a
parent's perspective and from achild's perspective?
(05:22):
How does that really impactthem?
Dr. Waldman (05:25):
Well, there's a number of sins, if you will,
that parents in these situationscommit, and certainly
alienation is right up there,Speaking badly about the other
(05:53):
parent to the kid.
What it does, you see, is itreally puts the child in an
awkward position.
Who are they supposed tobelieve?
Who are they supposed to beloyal to Remember, up until that
(06:15):
fateful day when the separationactually occurred?
As far as the child wasconcerned, they had the two best
parents in the world.
They had the best mom in theworld.
They had the two best parentsin the world.
They had the best mom in theworld they had the best dad in
the world and their parents hadthe best marriage in the world,
because that's all they onlyknew.
Now, all of a sudden, the bestmom in the world, just saying
(06:41):
and it happens both ways thebest mom in the world is making
critical comments about the bestdad in the world, just saying
and it happens both ways thebest mom in the world is making
critical comments about the bestdad in the world.
What, why, what happened?
As far as the kids concerned,the world is turned upside down.
Black is white, white is black,and so on and so forth, and the
(07:10):
kid is caught, the kids arecaught in what we refer to as a
loyalty squeeze.
You know who are they to be, whoare they to remain loyal to,
and so on.
Kayla (07:18):
It's very hard.
Dr. Waldman (07:23):
It really shakes them to the core.
And parents do this becausethey're angry.
They've probably, by the timethey're divorced, have said
every bad word they can think ofnumerous times, so there's
nothing else to say.
But if they can use the kidsagainst, or the kid against the
(07:58):
other parent, aha, that's a newweapon.
And they do that.
Frankly, it's selfish.
It times kids caught in thesesituations.
Their schoolwork drops off,they become depressed themselves
, they stop being social, theybecome irritable, they stop
(08:22):
eating, sleeping and so forth.
Lots of issues occur Now,having been in this field for
decades.
I've seen the end of this andwhat happens many times is one
of the parents is is eight.
(08:50):
One of the parents is and Idon't want to demean moms, but
it happens more with moms anddads, primarily because the kids
typically are spending moretime with mom than with dad.
But dads do it too, that's forsure so what happens, though, is
there comes a time in theirchild's adolescence or maybe
(09:11):
even young adulthood, or itmight even occur when the child
themselves become a parent.
Somewhere in there fromadolescence to that point, the
kid gets the recognition, therealization that mom or dad
(09:33):
manipulated me and kept me fromthe other parent, and then all
hell breaks loose.
I've seen it where a momalienated a child and kept the
child away from their fatherbecause the child said well, I
(09:55):
want nothing to do with him, youknow he's a, and so on.
But by the time he startedcollege, the realization came.
Wait a minute.
Here my mom took advantage ofme and I wasn't allowed to have
a relationship with his father,and the kid reversed the
(10:21):
situation, strove to have arelationship with his father and
now cut off his mother.
So the mother basically shotherself in the foot.
Kayla (10:37):
Yes, she had the kid for 10 years all to herself, but not
for the rest of her life.
Well, and an undue burden onthe child.
Right, absolutely Well.
And what would you say to thosemoms who are saying, yeah, but
he's a narcissist and he cheatedon me and he wasn't there for,
you know, my kids, or hecanceled last minute on the
visitations all the time Like Iwas trying to protect my child?
(10:58):
What would you say to thatparent?
Dr. Waldman (11:02):
Well, remember, you know you can be a lousy spouse
and a decent parent.
And that's you know that's whatit is.
I mean the, you know the now,if we're talking true abuse,
right.
Okay, that's a different story,but most of the time it's not,
(11:24):
and so the child deserves tohave a relationship with the
other parent.
Kayla (11:39):
Well, and I think that children should be allowed the
dignity to discover who bothparents are on their own terms
and in their own time, right.
So I think a lot of momsinfluence like, oh well, I want
them to see.
And it's like, well, wait asecond, that's not your journey.
You had an opportunity to getto know both of your parents and
(12:00):
I think when you become anadult, you start to have new
realizations and new insightsabout both of your parents, who
they are as people, and therecomes a reckoning for most of us
, and most of us have to processthis in therapy or you know, or
in our own relationships orwhatever that environment is.
(12:21):
However, if a parent robs youof that opportunity, what does
that do to your identity andyour?
You know whether you think yourco-parent is a good parent or
not.
You're not in control.
Dr. Waldman (12:41):
Absolutely.
I've heard it said.
You know that, of course, whenone parent is criticizing the
other parent of the child, thatparent is literally criticizing
50 percent of that kid's genes,so that kid's being essentially
criticized as well.
By the way, to add to thisformula, if you will, what about
(13:08):
the grandparents Interestingand being a grandparent?
Fortunately, my kids haven'tgone through this, but I worked
with grandparents in thissituation where the parent who's
doing the alienation, if youwill, not only is cutting off
(13:29):
the child from the other parentbut also from the other parent's
parents.
Yeah, and I've had situationsin fact I've even been in court
about that where thegrandparents had a lovely
connection with the children butfollowing the divorce, the
other parent, you know,prevented that relationship to
(13:49):
continue.
Yeah, and they went to courtabout it.
Kayla (13:55):
Well, and I would even say that's true in the reverse,
like I think a lot ofgrandparents talk a lot of smack
about.
So, like you know, if dad andmom split up, dad's parents
inadvertently say a lot ofnegative comments about mom, and
so I think they can be part ofthis equation as well, on both
(14:19):
sides.
One, they can be alienated fromthe child, but also, I think,
they can be the alienators.
Dr. Waldman (14:27):
Absolutely.
And as a parenting coordinator,many times I would have the
grandparent, I would have asession with the grandparents as
well and if there was andyou're right, that does happen,
(15:09):
and you're right, that doeshappen and I would make it very
clear, you know, if they want tomaintain some kind of semblance
of relationship with theirgrand, again they're harming
themselves.
Because I will ask, as aparenting coordinator, I had
lots of authority and I wouldmeet with the kid and say you
know well, how was it withgrandpa and grandma and so forth
?
By the way, did they sayanything about?
And if I'm hearing that theyare, you know, I'll send a
letter to the judge that, hey,I've warned the grandparents not
to do it, they're continuing todo it.
(15:29):
These visitations should belimited or supervised.
Kayla (15:36):
What state are you in?
Because I do not hear of a lotof psychologists being involved
in these divorce cases toprotect the kids' interests.
I think it's wonderful.
Dr. Waldman (15:48):
Arizona, maricopa County, okay.
Kayla (15:50):
By the way.
Dr. Waldman (15:51):
Maricopa County is the divorce capital of the world
.
No kidding, something to beproud of.
More divorces are filed inMaricopa County than anywhere
else in the nation.
Kayla (16:03):
Oh my gosh, that's sad.
Well, that maybe that was whythe courts involved
psychologists.
But I really think that allcustody and divorce kind of
situations could really use thatservice, because there is so
much damage done and I think alot of times I think parents
give themselves justification ofwhy they are poisoning the.
(16:31):
Well, if you will.
Dr. Waldman (16:34):
Well, unfortunately , from from the get go, it's set
up this way and you knowdivorces handle the same way as
a criminal case you have to findsomebody guilty.
You know it's the prosecutoragainst the other side, the
(17:01):
other side, and that's reallynot the way it should be done as
far as I'm concerned.
I agree.
Now there is a new movement I'mnot sure if you're familiar
with it called collaborativedivorce.
Kayla (17:18):
Interesting.
Dr. Waldman (17:20):
It is relatively new.
It's been around a couple ofyears now and certainly it's
well.
It's nationwide.
Kayla (17:31):
Okay.
Dr. Waldman (17:36):
And I've spoken for them, In fact my message to
them is they need to do bettermarketing.
So here's a good example.
Kayla (17:43):
Yeah right, Totally, I think it's.
I had never heard of that and Ithink that's really interesting
.
I've heard of mediators.
Dr. Waldman (17:57):
Uh-oh, dr Waldman, you froze An office.
There you're back, sorry.
Okay, an office will haveseveral attorneys, where dad
gets his attorney, mom gets herattorney in from the same office
, so they get their needsaddressed.
(18:18):
But the two attorneys areactually working in concert to
do what's best for the familyand what's in the best interest
of the children.
Kayla (18:30):
I think that's amazing.
That's wonderful Because Ireally do think that divorce,
the biggest victim of a divorce,is the children.
It always is All right.
So you mentioned earlier thereare several sins when you're
divorcing.
If you're a parent, could youtalk more about what are the
other ones?
So one is bad mouthing yourspouse.
Dr. Waldman (18:52):
Well, you know starting, you know it's it's
first off.
When do you tell the kid kidsthat you know divorce is
occurring again, that there's nohard and fast rules?
You know, just as I said,bringing them in that evening in
(19:15):
the living room and dad sittingthere, you know, and mom's
starting to cry and dad'slooking for Lauren and he's got
a packed bag and so forth andhe's leaving.
That's a shock age of the kids,of course.
(19:39):
To let them know that you knowmom and dad have decided, you
know, that they're going to liveapart.
Now there's some importantthings to you know.
Assure the child One you knowit wasn't their fault and kids
will think so.
Two, it's not because they'rebad or they or they did anything
, that they're, they're going tobe taken care of and that just
(20:01):
because dad is leaving, or dadis dad and mom are divorcing,
dad isn't divorcing you.
Kayla (20:07):
Right.
Dr. Waldman (20:08):
So assure the child that they're going to be taken
care of, they're not to beblaming themselves, and so forth
.
So those are important things.
The other major sin that wedidn't address is to fight in
front of the kid.
(20:29):
Oh my God, I mean when thechild is right there and they're
going at it and so forth.
I mean again what's the kidsupposed to do?
Kayla (20:42):
Right.
Dr. Waldman (20:43):
How does that make you feel?
The best mom in the world andthe best dad in the world are
now in combat, and what am Idoing.
You know what does that meanabout me?
I mean it shakes them to thecore.
Yeah, who's?
Who's taking care of me?
These people look like they'reout of control.
(21:05):
What's?
Kayla (21:07):
going to happen to me.
And so where the child?
Where are you going to live?
Dr. Waldman (21:15):
Many times when the divorce occurs or separation
occurs, they, they make changesin their living, and that's hard
on the kid.
Kayla (21:26):
Yeah.
Dr. Waldman (21:27):
And what we try to say is at least try to stay in
the same neighborhood so thekids have the same friends and
can attend the same school.
To have the shock of divorceand then go to the other side of
the city where they don't haveany friends and they're starting
a new school, maybe right evenin the middle of the year.
(21:47):
Oh, my goodness, what, how muchyou know, how much stress are
you going to put on these kids?
Yeah, you don't want to do that.
Kayla (22:00):
Well, again we get back to this selfishness.
Like you're doing that for you,you're not doing that for your
children.
Dr. Waldman (22:10):
Well, yes, sometimes.
So we say, ideally, here's theideal.
The parents should live withinwalking distance of each other
so that the kids could actuallykids could actually go back and
forth.
That's not possible, but that'sthe ideal and that the kids
(22:35):
could have regular contact witheach parent.
The parenting plan should beflexible.
If something comes up, you canask the other parent hey, could
(22:58):
you take over?
Blah, blah, blah, and so on.
I often recommend thatexchanges are done in neutral
spots.
Instead of going to one person,you know, one parent's house
and picking the kids up andtaking them from there you know
to the other house which remindsthe kid you know I'm going from
one house to another, you knowis make the exchange after
(23:19):
school or at the daycare centeror someplace.
Kayla (23:22):
I think exchanges is probably it's got to be on your
list of sins, because I haveheard many a horror story about
the exchange becoming this awful, like, for example, clothes,
like not bringing the clotheswith them that they need and
then the mom's in a pickle orthe dad's in a pickle because
(23:44):
they don't have what they needto go to soccer practice or, and
it's all this stress or youknow, asking a parent hey, can
you help me this weekend?
I've got plans, and the otherpartner saying tough, tough
cookies, you left me, it's notmy job, right?
Like.
Dr. Waldman (24:03):
Exactly no, you're absolutely right.
No in fact, we suggest that youknow let's you know that their
clothes there should be.
I know it's expensive, but setsof clothes should be in both
places.
Kayla (24:19):
Yeah.
Dr. Waldman (24:20):
I've even recommended many times that we
speak with the teacher in theschool and that the books school
books are in both places.
Let's face it, how many timesdo kids living in intact
families, you know, forget theirbook at school, or this or that
, or their homework, theymisplace their homework or
whatever, and they're goingcrazy about it.
Can you imagine now doublingthat because they've got two
(24:43):
places?
Oh, my God, I got.
I got this essay that's duetomorrow, but I left it at dance
.
You know the kids don't needthis, of course, totally.
You know the kids don't needthis, of course, totally, so you
know, so that the kidsshouldn't have to pack up to go
to the other parent.
Kayla (25:01):
The clothes should be there.
I resonate with that.
It's adding to a child's mentalburden and if you already are
separating, that's already hardenough to have an absence of one
of their main caregivers, havean absence of one of their main
caregivers and then on top ofthat you're and I think a lot of
parents think like theirassumption is well, that's their
responsibility, it's theirstuff, and it's like well, wait
(25:24):
a second, If you weren'tdivorced, they wouldn't have to
have this extra mental load.
Dr. Waldman (25:30):
Right yeah.
No, it's more of a burden onthe parent.
But again you chose to havethese kids.
You guys decided to getdivorced, and so it's your
responsibility to make this aseasy as possible.
It shows that kids who comefrom these kinds of divorce
(26:01):
situations and so forth are morelikely to have divorces
themselves, and so you know wedon't want to do that, yeah,
because it's going to perpetuate.
You know this process For sure,this, this process for sure.
Um, you know, there there arealso, uh, more subtle things
(26:21):
that parents need to be carefulof.
Um, you don't uh want tointerrogate the child, uh, when
he or she comes back from avisitation.
Some parents do that.
Kayla (26:31):
Oh, they start well how was your visit with dad.
Dr. Waldman (26:34):
Oh, yeah, okay um.
Was there anything new indaddy's house?
Kayla (26:40):
what did you eat?
Did he spend time with?
Dr. Waldman (26:43):
anyone.
Uh-huh, yeah, oh, daddy got anew tv.
Really, oh, he can afford a tv,can he?
Uh, okay, you know, and Okay.
And so now the kids?
Okay, you can see the kid going.
What do I see?
Now the father may be sayingdon't tell your mother anything.
Kayla (27:05):
Oh, and that's the worst thing to say to a child.
Dr. Waldman (27:10):
And then, of course , mother is asking but you can't
use the kid as a spy.
Yes, please tell me if there'sanything new there in daddy's
house or whatever.
Those are those subtle games,but it still puts the kid in a
vice.
Kayla (27:31):
What do I?
Dr. Waldman (27:31):
do?
Who do I listen to?
Who am I loyal to?
Kayla (27:35):
This is crazy.
Dr. Waldman (27:36):
It's very stressful and, by the way, when they
become teens, a normal teenthinks their parents are nuts
and stupid.
Anyhow.
Okay, it just goes with theterritory.
Now, if you put a teen in thissituation, he's right or she's
(27:59):
right, and they don't put upwith this.
Talk about angry teenagers.
I've seen them when this crapoccurs.
Oh.
Kayla (28:10):
I'm sure, I'm sure.
Well, what about, like theDisney parent thing, like the
parent who's always the funparent and oh, mom, doesn't let
us eat this.
Well, you're not at mom's house, you can have whatever you want
.
Like I think that's another sinthat happens frequently and
isn't looked as bad, but itreally does create the stress
(28:32):
for the child bad, but it reallydoes create the stress for the
child.
Dr. Waldman (28:41):
Absolutely, you're right, it's on my list, exactly.
You know mom's trying to limitscreen time, for instance, which
is probably a good thing, andwhen it goes to dad's house, you
know TV all day long or screentime all day long.
Mom's trying to have the kideat a decent diet, and no, we're
going to.
You know burgers and hot dogsand ice cream and candy, and so
(29:04):
you know, and dad's doing that.
One because maybe it's easier,but two, you know he's really
trying to be the favorite parent.
You know, no, there shouldn'tbe a favorite parent.
You know what kind of crap isthat, and so on.
Yeah, that's not supposed to bea competition.
(29:25):
So again now, of course, thekids will gladly do that.
Oh, yeah, you know, can I havecandy?
What kid will say oh, no I can'thave candy because mom thinks
it's not good for my teeth.
Kayla (29:38):
I have to stop playing video games.
Mom doesn't want me to do this.
Dr. Waldman (29:42):
Exactly, of course they'll do it, but or completing
the homework, yeah.
Kayla (29:51):
I had dad say look.
Dr. Waldman (29:52):
I have limited contact with my kids.
I'm not going to spend time,you know, helping him with his
homework.
Kayla (30:00):
Right Bingo.
Dr. Waldman (30:02):
And I would say well, you have a choice.
See, as a parenting coordinator, if I'm appointed by the judge,
I can make legal decisions.
First, I have to clear it withthe judge, but nine times out of
10, the judge is going to agreeto anything I say.
Once they know me and they didyeah and so forth.
And a father who would saysomething like that?
(30:24):
I'd say look, you know, if youwanted to have your visitation
with the kid, then you know,sunday night, you know his
homework needs to be done.
Kayla (30:34):
And if it's not?
Dr. Waldman (30:36):
then you'll have to bring him home about noon on
Sunday, so he will have the timeto complete his homework when
he's with mom.
That's your decision.
Kayla (30:46):
Well, think about what disservice you're doing to your
children if they're learninglike mom is a or you know, dad,
whatever.
Let's switch the example justso that I don't sound sexist.
But let's say, for example,dad's the unfun parent because
he makes you have homework andhe's making sure you're eating
healthy and making sure you'regoing to your doctor's
(31:06):
appointments and you're going tosleep on time, and then you go
to mom's house and you can stayup late, you can play you want.
She doesn't care if you haveaccess to a cell phone or
whatever.
Think about the disserviceyou're creating for this child.
They're learning this black orwhite way of living.
They're not learning thediscipline of balance, right of
(31:28):
a little fun, a littleresponsibility there, and
they're also witnessing fightingwith unhealthy extremes.
Dr. Waldman (31:41):
The world is crazy.
It really is.
That's what the kid comes toconclude they're insecure.
Kayla (31:49):
I mean kids want to feel rooted.
Dr. Waldman (31:54):
They like things to be the same.
They want to know they're caredfor and there's stability in
their world.
And when they're caught in thiskind of cyclone, it's not good
for them.
Kids in this situation are notgoing to do their homework on
time, are not going to sit inclass and pay good attention, et
(32:15):
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
No, their head's going to bespinning.
They're going to be upset,dysregulated and so on.
Kayla (32:25):
I mean this is just unhealthy for them and I think
it's important for people tohear this, because I think that
a lot of times, parents are soit's not.
I don't think.
Hold on, I'm so sorry, my catis demanding lunch.
I'm going to go lock her awayso that the microphone does not
(32:45):
pick up this cat.
No, ma'am, no ma'am, no ma'am.
Sorry about that, Dr Wildman.
(33:06):
The curses of working from homeright.
Dr. Waldman (33:09):
Yeah right, I remember a case I had where this
very bright kid was near thetop of his high school class and
his parents both of whom weredoctors, by the way, and should
have known better, you know gotinto this terrific uh uh uh,
conflicted divorce and and thekids shut down.
(33:33):
It's just a senior year, youknow.
Scholarships were, were alreadyyou know, becoming a parent, a
parent and so forth, and finallythey brought the kid to me and
I had a long talk with the kidand look, I, you know.
I certainly I understood wherehe was coming from.
(33:55):
But I basically said to him youknow, you know, tom, you can't
let your parents' divorce ruinyour life.
If you can graduate near thetop of your class, go to any
college in the country that youwant on a scholarship, no less
(34:16):
or not.
So you finally managed to pullit together.
Kayla (34:22):
It's so hard for kids, so they have such a limited scope
of vision and a limitedperspective, whereas parents
were supposed to be these guides.
But I was trying to say earlierI think, no, I don't think any
parent wakes up and says I'mgoing to pit my kid against my
partner and I'm going topsychologically distress my
(34:45):
child because I'm hurting.
Like.
I don't think it's a consciousprocess, I think it's.
I think it's hurting, hurtingpeople hurt people and I think
that people get lost in theirown psychodramas, the things
that are happening in their head, right, so I don't think any
parent wants to harm their child.
(35:06):
I just think that people getlost in the conflict and the
emotion of these situations.
Dr. Waldman (35:12):
Exactly.
Yeah, I agree with that.
It's not malicious in mostcases, right Simple things like
the child is getting ready to goto the other parent and so on,
and the parent who's letting goof the child.
Well, I hope it's OK.
(35:34):
I'm really going to miss you.
I'm going to be lonely.
I'll wait for you to come back.
You know, you know now, andthat may be true, but you know
now that what, what's the childsupposed to think?
Well, I don't want this parentto feel lonely without me.
(35:55):
You know and, and you know andand and and and.
When the parent says I hopeyou'll be okay over there, I was
like wait a minute.
Kayla (36:04):
What's going on over there?
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Waldman (36:06):
Yes, you know and so, but again, that isn't
malicious.
The parent didn't say that.
That's perhaps how they felt.
Right, you can see how thatimpacts the child Now on the
reverse side sometimes what?
Happens sometimes is in adivorce, you know, because again
(36:27):
the person you used to speak tothe other adult is no longer
there.
Sometimes parents mistakenlystart using the child as a
confidant.
Kayla (36:40):
I think that's something I see a lot of in therapeutic
environments is parents treatingtheir children as partners, as
therapists, as friends, and it'slike your child is not your
friend.
They cannot hold, they don'thave the mental capacity, the
(37:01):
emotional strength, theresilience to be an equal to you
.
They are not your equal.
Exactly the best friendsyndrome, right, like my child's
, my best friend.
Well, they're 16.
They shouldn't be your bestfriend, they should be your
child.
Dr. Waldman (37:17):
Right, Well, and of course it's very confusing.
Like you said, it's a confusionof roles.
Am I your best friend now?
(37:38):
But then why are you telling?
Kayla (37:39):
me to go make my bed Just a minute.
You don't tell best friends tomake your bed, so it creates
lots of confusion and so on.
Or dating lives I see that alot too, where parents, you know
, have their kids writing theirdating profiles and telling them
about their dates, and that'sjust not appropriate.
This child hasn't even learnedthe landscape of dating
themselves.
Dr. Waldman (37:58):
Speaking of dating, of course that raises a whole
new set of issues, because youknow, when the other parent gets
wind of the fact that you knowtheir ex or soon to be ex, you
know is seeing somebody you know, the fur can begin to fly oh
(38:18):
yeah, once again.
Kayla (38:34):
Now one basic mistake, that a lot of people make in
this situation is they pair upfar too quickly.
Dr. Waldman (38:38):
Somebody you once cared for has left you, rejected
you.
It hurts.
This is a couple's world.
You don't typically go to themovie alone.
You don't go to a nicerestaurant alone.
You don't typically vacationalone.
You prefer to be coupled.
(39:00):
I get that.
I realize that.
I realize that.
But so often what happens ispeople rush into a new
relationship.
And the data is very clear thedivorce rate for first marriages
(39:22):
in this country runs currentlybetween 45 and 50 percent.
Kayla (39:27):
Wow, that's high.
Dr. Waldman (39:29):
Yeah, well, that's where it is unfortunately, and
it's been that way a long time.
Covid made it even worse.
All this togetherness, yeah, Ican see that.
But second marriages, you knowyou would think you're older,
you're wiser, you should knowmore.
Blah, blah, blah.
No 65.
(39:50):
Two out of three fail.
Wow.
And the reason for that andpart of it is we, we couple too
quickly.
Kayla (40:00):
And you're coupling from a place of hurt and emptiness,
you're not coupling from a placeof wholeness and togetherness,
right?
I resonate with what you'resaying.
I see that a lot.
I also see people who couplewith other people and try to
shove it in the other partner'sface Like, see, I've moved on
(40:22):
and it's like, okay, good foryou, but that's not why you
should be in a relationship.
Dr. Waldman (40:28):
And think of all the attachments you have here.
You know, you now have a child,a confused one at that, or
children, so you got.
Now you got step kids, and soforth.
Also you know you have, you'rebringing along, your
(40:49):
grandparents are coming along,and now this new person also has
grandparents and they probablywould like some connection you
know with, with these new kidsand so forth, and the same thing
may happen on the other side aswell.
So come Thanksgiving, where yougo for dinner, I don't know.
(41:09):
I mean, you need a spreadsheetto figure it out.
Kayla (41:14):
Yeah, Well, and a lot of times these kids, the family
home no longer exists because itwas sold or everyone moved or
whatever.
So it's like where's your home?
Well, there's the stepmom andher family, and then there's
stepdad, and then there's momand there's.
It just becomes so complex.
There's all of theserelationships and attachments to
(41:36):
navigate and I think a lot oftimes parents see their kids
acting okay and assumeeverything's fine.
It's like, oh well, how's your10-year-old dealing with the
divorce?
Oh, they seem okay, they seemfine.
And it's like that's not.
The best indicator to knowwhether a child is
(41:57):
psychologically healthy is howthey appear at first glance.
Would you agree with that?
Dr. Waldman (42:03):
Yeah Well, the kid's trying to hold it together
.
Yeah, best he can or she can.
Yeah, you know, there's aninteresting phenomenon, you know
, and we see it a lot where aperson you know quick, quickly,
pairs up and you take a look atthis person and you have to do a
(42:25):
double take because he or sheactually looks a lot like the
first one.
Interesting, we see a lot.
Well, if we take an analyticperspective here for just a
moment although I'm typicallyknown as a behavioral
psychologist but if we, if welook at it this way, you know
(42:51):
what, what we, what most peopledo, is pay little attention,
okay, to their role in thedissolution of the first
relationship.
Nine times, 99 times out of 100, if you ask that person, how
come you got divorced?
(43:11):
It's the other person's fault.
Very, very, very seldom do theylook in the mirror and say well,
you know, maybe I did this or Icould have done this, and so,
no, it's the other person'sfault.
So what do they do?
They take whatever dynamicsthey own, okay, that that you
(43:35):
know, uh, cause damage in thefirst relationship and throw
them right into the second oneimmediately.
And that's one of the reasonswhy the divorce rate for second
marriages is so high, becausewe're taking the same crap and
(43:57):
throwing it there, yeah, we'reground into these unhealthy
dynamics of how we relate toothers and then we just carry it
.
Kayla (44:08):
And of course we, if we don't heal, we're attracting the
familiar love as well.
If you're attracted to adominating critical man and you
haven't healed anything aboutyourself, you're going to
attract a dominating criticalman again the next time, right?
Dr. Waldman (44:24):
Right, you know they say there's four things
that you know that trouble mostrelationships, you know money,
sex, in-laws, kids.
Okay, those are the four thingsthat most couples struggle with
.
So well, take a look at that Ifyou're coming out of a divorce,
(44:46):
particularly a conflicted one.
Money I can't tell you how manysituations I've had
professionally, you know, wherethe second marriage is already
in trouble because the father ispaying a pocket full of child
support and spousal maintenanceand the new wife or new
(45:09):
girlfriend is going wait aminute, you know, a couple
thousand dollars a month isgoing out the door, and I don't
even know these people.
We need money here.
So you've got the money issue.
The sex issue?
Well, you know, we know they'vebeen with somebody else and so
forth.
It is tough and so on, andthat's you know, those are the
(45:49):
reasons why second marriagesjust fail so continuously.
Kayla (45:56):
Okay, so let's shift gears here.
What are some simple thingsparents can think of doing in
order to foster health in theirchildren if they're going
through a divorce or they aredivorced?
What are some things you coulddo that would be positive and
(46:16):
strengthening for the kids?
Dr. Waldman (46:19):
Sure, good question .
Speak positively about your ex,and so on.
Continue to assure them thatthey're going to be taken care
of, they can ask any questions,that if they want to see or call
their other parent, theyabsolutely can do that and
(46:42):
you'll get out of the room.
They can speak, you know,privately, and so forth, if they
want to go over there forsomething fine.
I'll drive you over.
You know, if daddy's good atmaking uh whatever, we'll go to
daddy's house and you we'll getyou get your project done for
school, you, you know, and so on.
(47:03):
You know those kinds of thingsgo a long way you know to
putting the kid at ease.
Yeah, those are important.
Kayla (47:16):
That's wonderful.
I think another thing that Iheard from our conversation
earlier is making sure you'retaking care of your own feelings
, aside from the kid.
Like, don't you know, you mightbe going through a struggle or
a conflict or you might reallydislike your ex.
However, you have therapistsfor that, you have friends for
(47:38):
that, you have private time forthat.
Do not expect your kids to besupportive of your feelings
towards your ex, because it'snone of the kid's business
really or four.
Dr. Waldman (48:09):
If you're going through a divorce, even a
congenial one, and so on, Istill recommend that you see a
therapist, and your kids shouldas well.
I mean, this is what it's allabout.
I mean, breaking up divorce isone of the most difficult things
.
It's highest on the stressscale.
Kayla (48:27):
Yeah for sure.
Well, it changes everything,right.
It changes our day-to-day lives.
Dr. Waldman (48:33):
Absolutely.
Okay so yeah, so yes, seeing asupportive therapist to help you
through this and the kids isvery important.
Yes, and again, if you'recontemplating divorce, look into
this collaborative approach.
Kayla (48:54):
I know, that sounds so cool.
Dr. Waldman (48:56):
As opposed to the adversarial approach.
Right, you know, some of theseattorneys you know say hey, I'll
you know I'm going to get youevery dime.
You know we can, you know we'regoing to ground, grind him into
the ground.
Kayla (49:09):
You know, you know we're going to make him pay, you know,
and some people oh, that's goodWell no, it's not good.
Dr. Waldman (49:18):
Because, yeah, maybe you might do that and so
forth, but remember it doesn'tend when the court session ends.
You're going to have to livethe rest of your life with this,
with a very angry ex-spouse,and your kids are going to be
caught in this as well.
(49:39):
That's not how you want to dothis, and so on.
I worked with lots of differentdivorce attorneys and you could
tell right away whether thisattorney really had the kids
welfare in mind or, as like Isaid, was a shark.
Kayla (50:00):
Well, I hate to say this, but lawyers are not in it
because they care aboutchildren's well-being.
Lawyers are typically in itbecause they want to make money.
Dr. Waldman (50:12):
Unfortunately.
Yes, and you know, strife meansbucks, that's right yeah.
The more motions you file moretimes you go into court.
I mean yeah.
But again it doesn't end welland it's hard on the kids.
(50:35):
Oh, by the way don't bring yourkid to court.
Kayla (50:40):
Oh yes, that's a good point I can't tell you.
Dr. Waldman (50:45):
There were a couple of cases that I was involved in
, and nothing ticks off a judgemore than to bring a child to
court.
Now, in a couple of instances,when the kid's a teenager and so
on, the judge might meet withthe child in what they call it
(51:05):
in camera, that is, you know, inthe judge's office, but not in
open court.
Then you of course bring thekid to court, but you know.
Kayla (51:16):
They made me testify against my dad in the divorce.
It was just awful traumatizingSure Can you imagine.
Dr. Waldman (51:29):
No, it's awful.
Yeah, I know I've been sittingin the back waiting for my
chance to testify and I've seensome of this and I'm just going.
Oh my God.
Fortunately the judges inPhoenix go through this, so much
(51:56):
they've learned they don't dothat.
Well, of course, I've been outof it now several years, but I
certainly saw it back in the day.
Kayla (52:08):
That's wonderful.
Dr. Waldman (52:09):
That's terrible to put a child on the stand
speaking against the otherparent.
Kayla (52:16):
Ugh yuck.
All right, Dr Waldman, if youcould give people one nugget of
advice, one gem from thispodcast, what are you hoping
they're going to hear?
Dr. Waldman (52:32):
You know you have to put the kids needs first.
It's not, maybe, a message thatthey want to hear, but they're
fragile but they're fragile.
This is a groundbreaking eventfor everybody, but for kids it
is the most To lose.
The best parents in the world,and so on is just mind-rattling.
Kayla (53:08):
So you have to take care of their needs first.
So there you have it what notto do in divorce and better ways
to protect your kids fromemotional fallout.
If you're an adult child of adivorce and you want support
unpacking the effects of adysfunctional upbringing and
learning how to show updifferently in your own life and
relationships, head over toKayla Rileycom.
I'd love to work with you.
(53:29):
I offer one-on-one coaching andit would be awesome.
Check it out.
You can also check out DrWaldman's book love your child
more than you hate your ex whatevery divorce parent needs to
know.
It's available now on Amazonand honestly required reading If
you're navigating divorce withkids in the mix.
You can connect with Dr Waldmanon LinkedIn.
(53:50):
He's semi-retired now, so whenhe's not chilling by the pool,
maybe he'll write you back.
And if you haven't alreadyconnected with me on Instagram,
please hop on over there.
I'm not your therapist dotKayla.
I want to hear what you thinkabout this episode and what came
up for you.
Thanks for hanging out with me.
Take care of yourself and yourkids and I'll catch you next
time on not your therapist.
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