November 10, 2022 • 44 mins
Have you ever had a project or interest you feel so strongly about, but couldn't seem to take any real steps toward completion, because you’re stuck trying to brainstorm the absolute best approach? Or if you do find the best possible solution, do you find yourself anxious at the idea of executing that perfect solution? If you do, you’re not alone.
Now Presenting, ADHD, and what Jaye calls the Optimization Trap.
After exploring the Optimization Trap and why we can get stuck in it, host Jaye Lin is joined by Ron Capalbo and Liz Welshman, and the three ADHD coaches discuss their experiences with overoptimizing, as well as provide suggestions on how to get ourselves out of the trap.
Ron Capalbo
Website: adhdcoachron.com
Instagram: @adhd_ron
TikTok: @adhdcoachron
Liz Welshman
Website: lizwelshman.com
Instagram: @bouncy_adhd
Jaye Lin
Website: jayelin.com
Instagram: @jayelinftw
If you have questions or would like to give suggestions for future episodes, send us an email at info@npadhd.com. To listen to all episodes, view show notes and transcripts, or learn more about host Jaye Lin, visit our website at www.npadhd.com. Follow us on Instagram @npadhdpodcast and @adhdjaye.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jaye Lin (00:00):
Hi, this is now presenting ADHD, where we look
at common ways ADHD can presentin individuals, explain what the
root causes can be, and connectthe experience to real humans.
I'm your host, Jaye Lin. I'm anADHD coach, instructor, and
generally nice person. This isour first episode. I've been
(00:22):
intending to start this podcastfor over a year, and in true
ADHD fashion, I couldn't decidehow to start. Every time I came
up with a topic, I could thinkof a million reasons why it
shouldn't be the first one.
Another subject is morecompelling, or an easier
introduction. This topic is toomeaty, or too sparse. Better
keep brainstorming.
(00:44):
I kept chasing an ideal,continually realizing it wasn't
perfect. After that happenedenough times, I would feel
overwhelmed and unsure, andwould end up shelving the
project for another day. Itwould stay on that proverbial
shelf until I got the podcastitch again, but the process
would just repeat itself, and Iwould feel worse throughout each
cycle.
(01:06):
Is this something you resonatewith? Having a project or
interest you feel so stronglyabout, but can't seem to take
any real steps towardscompletion, because you're stuck
trying to brainstorm theabsolute best approach? Or if
you do find the best possiblesolution, do you find yourself
anxious at the idea of executingthat perfect solution? If you
(01:27):
do, you're not alone. Nowpresenting ADHD and what I call
the optimization trap.
Have you ever been reallyexcited about a project or hobby
(01:49):
but couldn't seem to moveforward beyond thinking of all
the possibilities? Has thishappened more than once? Does
this keep happening? This is avery common frustration point
for many people with ADHD, andit's easy to understand why. If
I volunteered for this project,and this is something I want to
do, why can't I actually do it?
This resistance against movingon to the doing phase can be
(02:12):
destructive to our workperformance and lead us to
distrust our passions andinterests. A lot of ADHD
individuals I talked to feellike this is unavoidable with
ADHD, and that they have to justlive with their frustration and
disappointment with themselves.
Well, it's possible to moveforward in those scenarios, as
supported by this podcastepisode that you're listening
(02:35):
to.
So how do we get ourselves toexecute on things? It helps to
understand why this is such acommon ADHD presentation. Let's
talk Brain Stuff.
Our ADHD brains tend to operateon a deficiency of dopamine, and
one of the effects of this isthat when we do get a hit of
dopamine, it feels very, verygood. Creativity, especially the
(03:00):
challenging kind, gets ourdopamine levels to surge. Think
about how you feel when you'recoming up with the optimal
solution that solves for manythings, even things no one else
is asking for. Wow, that feelsgood, doesn't it? In those
creative and challengingoptimization moments, higher
levels of dopamine get ournormally chaotic brain to go in
(03:22):
clear directions, and we cancome up with complex ideas. The
shift from jumbled brain toclear brain adds even more
feel-good onto our dopaminehigh. So what happens when it's
time to do the actual planningand take the logistical steps
forward? The creativity surge ofdopamine is no longer there, and
(03:43):
our dopamine returns to normal,lower levels. With lower
dopamine levels, our executivedysfunction returns. Those
optimum solutions we came upwith can require many extra
moving parts. With jumbledbrain, approaching the planning
process can feel reallyoverwhelming. The overwhelm
itself doesn't feel good, butour inability to effectively
(04:05):
move forward also doesn't makeus feel good about ourselves. We
felt so good when brainstorming,and now how do we feel? Bad.
Stuck. Helpless. Insecure.
So what's a person with ADHD todo in this situation? What we
(04:26):
commonly do. Bail. Stop workingon the project and go do
something else. But there'sanother thing we do, too. We go
back to where we felt good,safe, and empowered. Back to
optimization.
Perfectionism is a term that isoften used in ADHD circles.
(04:46):
Almost every ADHD individual Iknow considers themselves to be
a perfectionist at some things,if not everything. I however,
don't consider perfectionism tobe the most accurate term when
describing this phenomenon.
Instead, I use the wordoptimization.
Perfectionism implies apossibility of a perfect result
(05:09):
that can be achieved anddefined. Optimization doesn't.
Perfectionism is a standard wemeasure ourselves to. It can be
defined by size, angles, color,brilliance, and other metrics.
Optimization is undefined andvaries greatly depending on the
situation and individualsinvolved. Because of this,
(05:32):
optimization is a trap that wecan fall into if we're not
careful. If we want to get awayfrom feeling overwhelmed and
helpless, there is an endlessamount of optimization we can
do. And there we stay,optimizing, optimizing, and not
actually doing.
(05:53):
So what results do we get fromthis? If there's no urgency or
deadline, sometimes we juststall and never pick the project
back up. If there's a deadline,a common occurrence is to get an
adrenaline boost that kicks upour dopamine, and makes it so
that we can get things done atthe last minute. But it's the
(06:13):
last minute. So are we able tofully execute on that lofty
optimized solution that we cameup with? Most likely not.
At that point, we're doingwhatever we need to in order to
get it complete? And then whathappens afterward? Do we feel
good about our results? Do wefeel victorious that we
(06:35):
completed our project? Or do weinvalidate the success?
Do we compare our results to theoptimized solution and feel bad?
Do we compare the results to theamount of time we spent working
on this including optimizationtime?
If the completion was lessdreadful than we anticipated, do
(06:56):
we give ourselves a hard timefor not doing it sooner, or not
doing it with enough time toexecute on the optimized result?
What happens when we feel crappyafter completion? The next time
we're ready to transition out ofoptimization, do we feel better
or worse about moving forwardwith planning, given the
negative feelings we've attachedto our project execution?
(07:20):
Here's a good place for me toget off my monologue and have
some friends join me. Pleasewelcome Liz and Ron.
Liz Welshman (07:28):
I'm Liz Welshman.
I'm an ADHD coach andconsultant, and I'm also a
parent of a kid with ADHD, and Ihave ADHD myself. I am not a
niche coach. I'm pretty much thetown bike when it comes to
coaching. My favorite client isalways the last person I
coached. Very happy to be here.
Ron Capalbo (07:50):
Hi, I'm Ron Capalbo, otherwise known as ADHD
Coach Ron. I'm a coach, advocateand instructor living in the LA
area. I love making ADHD contenton Instagram and Tiktok. And
along with individual coaching,I run a few group coaching
classes that have been a greatway for clients to get coaching
at a fraction of the cost, whilealso meeting other ADHDers in
(08:13):
the community that help validatethose struggles.
Jaye Lin (08:16):
Okay, welcome to both of you! I'm so excited that
you're here in the firstepisode. So do either of you
resonate with theoptimizationtrap?
Liz Welshman (08:27):
I do big time. And I really love the way you've
explained this. I've actuallynever thought of myself as a
perfectionist, because theoutput is so far away from
perfect most of the time. ButI'm definitely someone who
optimizes on the back end. Sorather than trying to get it
(08:51):
right on the front, I just havea lot of trouble completing the
things that I get started on.
And I think for me, it comesdown to this really big fear of
mediocrity. I don't need what Icreate to be amazing or mind
blowing. I'm just terrified ofit being mediocre. It's like the
worst thing that could happen tome.
Jaye Lin (09:13):
So it's okay if it like totally sucks. And it's
okay if it's really good. Butanything in between, oh gosh?
Liz Welshman (09:21):
Ugh, yeah. Being average. Gross.
Jaye Lin (09:27):
Okay, Ron, what about you?
Ron Capalbo (09:28):
Yeah, I love the optimization term, because
perfectionism never, like reallysat well with me. I realized
that it was closer toperfectionism than laziness,
which, which was a reallyinteresting kind of thing that I
figured out. But yeah, the thingis, there's so many different
(09:49):
reasons why I struggle. It's notjust because of the
perfectionism. You know, it'sbecause of the motivation. It's
because of the fear. It'sbecause of the uncertainty and
all of that kind of wraps up inoptimization really well for me,
so I love that.
Jaye Lin (10:05):
Yeah. And I like to use optimization also, because
it's not a bad thing to strivefor perfection, right? Like, if
we say we're perfectionists,that just means that we are
striving for perfection. Andthat is a quality that most
societies really encourage.
Like, we don't want to becomplacent. We want to always be
(10:29):
like, better and better andbetter. But optimization. It can
never be perfect, right? Like,what are we striving toward?
We're striving toward a lot ofdifferent things. And it can go
in a lot of differentdirections. And oftentimes, I
feel like I have an idea of whatthe optimal result is, and then
I start doing it, and itchanges. And the more I spend
(10:49):
optimizing, the less I spendactually seeing what works, that
makes sense.
Ron Capalbo (10:58):
I've always had this thought of like, looking
for what the right answer is forsomething. And I wonder if it is
a societal thing, where it's,you know, sure, no one's gonna
be perfect. But if you strivefor perfect, and you come up
short, you're gonna be betteroff than somebody that just
settles, like, that's always thefear that someone's gonna settle
for something. And, and I think,us not getting that recognition,
(11:21):
too, right? If you settle forsomething, someone might not
give you the the validation thatif you just get something done,
it's acceptable, and you moveon. But if you do something
extraordinary, that's whenpeople are oppressed. That's
when you get that kind ofdopamine, maybe from other
people, that validation thatyou're looking for it. So we
start striving for excellencefor it, because that's what
(11:44):
gives us the the dopamine we'relooking for.
Jaye Lin (11:48):
Yeah, but then also, my optimum is not the same as
someone else's optimum, right.
So I mean, we're searching forthis validation that like, Wow,
you did such a great job. Andsometimes we don't even get
that. Because they're like,Yeah, you know, this isn't, this
isn't the optimal solution. Andthey don't give us the
proportionate praise that wewere striving for. And it just
(12:09):
is frustrating. It makes usdistrust ourselves, it makes,
you know, it makes us doubtthis, even the skills and the
knowledge of the people givingus this feedback, because it's
just like, "Ughh, are youstupid?", you know, like, or, or
like, "are you not payingattention? This was the optimal
result. Why are you saying it'snot?" And optimum for each
(12:32):
person varies, so it becomesreally difficult to figure out
what exactly we want out ofthis. Right? It just becomes a
way for us to grade ourselvesand realize that we didn't
measure up to what we wanted tobe.
Liz Welshman (12:55):
Jaye, another thing that I notice in my
clients, and in myself is thatbecause we are such, so many of
us are such top down thinkers,so we need to sort of have a
real idea of the end product.
And before we can get started,but like you said, so much of
the creation of anything good isin this messy, in the middle
(13:16):
engagement bit. But the dopaminein the beginning of the big
idea, the big exciting idea, andmaybe hopefully, in the end at
the end where people say, yeah,great job amazing. But where the
actual creation comes is thatengagement, and that's the messy
(13:36):
yucky bit that optimizationkeeps us from.
Ron Capalbo (13:42):
There's so many different reasons, right? It
could be a fear of getting itwrong, the fear of disappointing
others disappointing yourself.
It could be just lack ofmotivation or uncertainty. But I
want to kind of speak to thefear thing a little bit, because
of how we try to avoiduncomfortable feelings so much.
So if we ever had a point in ourlives where we felt like we
(14:04):
disappointed someone, or we weredisappointed in ourselves, and
just how, especially for peoplethat are highly emotional and
can feel things more than say,the average person, that
disappointment becomes such aroadblock for us that we have
to, especially if it's somethingthat we're trying for the first
time, we don't want to fail,because of that fear, that
(14:28):
becomes this huge barrier infront of us that, we're not
looking at getting better atsomething and seeing where we
are. We're saying if I fail atthis, it's going to feel
terrible. It's going to feelawful. I'm going to hate every
moment of it. And so going withwhat Liz was saying as being
conceptual, you know, top downthinkers, we are thinking about
(14:51):
every possible scenario, everyfeeling that might come along
the way and if disappointment ison the horizon, there's a very
good chance that's going to shutus down.
Jaye Lin (15:05):
Yeah. And it also becomes somewhat of a self
fulfilling prophecy, when we areso scared of what's going to
happen, and what if I'm not goodenough that that's all we pay
attention to, you know, like,where we fell short. And we're,
we're not always seeing whatwe're doing right, or how this
experience will contribute tofuture instances of doing this.
(15:31):
And it's the fear kind of justcompounds over time until it
becomes unbearable. And yeah, webail. Yeah, totally.
What examples from yourexperience can you share with
our listeners?
Ron Capalbo (15:46):
So I make Tiktok videos and instagram videos
online. And I remember, not onlythe first time but so many times
during the past couple of yearsthat I've done this, where I've
had an idea for a video andstarted it, and something got in
the way, or there was a worrythat came up, and insecurity, so
(16:09):
to speak, where I'm like, "Idon't know if people are gonna
like this", or "I don't know ifwhat I'm trying to communicate
is gonna get across". Andthere's been times where those
just stay in drafts. There'ssome that I love so much to and
still haven't posted, becauseit's not exactly what I'm
looking for. And I'm starting toworry that people might take
(16:30):
this the wrong way, or theyaren't going to get this and
this, all this work is going tobe for nothing, and it's going
to be a disappointment. And youknow, there might be some
backlash for the way I'm sayingsomething and all these thoughts
go through my head. So So yeah,I remember going back to the
first time I posted somethingtook me like a month before I
posted any video online. Butjust, I don't even know if this
(16:54):
was part of the question youasked, but like what I've done
about it, and what's likechanged about it? I would say,
you know that first time, when Iposted I go back to that video
all the time. And as the kidssay, I look at it as super
cringe. It's a video that I'mjust like, you know, this is
this is cheesy. This is cheesyand a little bit embarrassing,
(17:16):
but that's okay. But I showthat, actually, to a lot of
clients when they talk to meabout any of the videos I make,
because I say that that video isthe reason that, I mean,
honestly the reason I decided tobecome an ADHD coach started
with that video. Like I didn'tstart taking classes ADDCA until
after that video. I didn't startmaking other videos until that
(17:39):
video happened. That was stepone. If we were to look back at
the ups and downs and theexcitements and the fears that
have happened over the past twoyears, that video was step one
for me. And I, there was a timeI thought about deleting it, but
I leave it there, and I showpeople that, as a reminder that
my recent videos that I lovethat I'm so proud of I've helped
(18:03):
so many people would never havehappened if it wasn't for that
one. And something that reallyresonated with me at that time
was I started to think of thingsin a growth mindset, instead of
a fixed mindset. The idea oflike, I'm not going to get
better unless I see where I'mat, unless I look back at it and
self reflect. And then see fromthat finished product, what it
(18:25):
is that I want to get better at.
And each time that I've donethat I've gotten better. What do
you know? So I'm very proud ofthat. And it's something I still
remind myself, it's not fixed,right? Like, I made a video the
other day that I deleted I waslike, "This is crap. I'm not
gonna gonna ever post this".
(18:46):
And, and so it's, it's, I haveto constantly remind myself and
constantly check in to make surethat I'm growing. And I'm not
just stopped with, you know, myinsecurities or my fixed mindset
that I think always creeps in.
And it's never gonna go away.
But it is figuring out how to beokay with it, and learn from it.
Jaye Lin (19:08):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought up the growth
mindset because I feel like thatis so huge when it comes to the
optimization trap, right?
Because we we want to geteverything perfect on the first
time.
Liz Welshman (19:20):
By the way, it doesn't make me cringe looking
at your first TikTok.
Ron Capalbo (19:25):
Have you seen my first TikTok? Did I show you my
first TikTok? Man.
Yeah! And I love it! Becauseit's so fucking ballsy to just
do something for the first time.
And what you said about thegrowth mindset, or the fact that
we have fixed mindsets is soimportant, because I think a lot
(19:45):
of us would like to think aboutourselves that well, we're
making mistakes all the time.
And actually we live in a waythat is kind of aligned with a
growth mindset because we fall,we get back up again, we keep
going we're all prettyresilient. But because of this
temporal discounting thathappens, it's really hard to
(20:06):
imagine the work that we'reputting in now as being part of
a really long continuum ofprogress, rather than just
something that we're doing tocreate this amazing product. And
yeah, speaking of cringe, thatonce there's really cheesy
saying around, it's somethinglike, you know, don't compare
(20:27):
your day one to somebody's day1000, or whatever it is. And I
know that, especially when itcomes to things like speaking,
I'm really comparing myself as alittle rookie, baby novice
speaker, with someone who'ssuper polished and amazing, and
who's been doing itprofessionally for years. And
(20:49):
that, really, you know, that's areal barrier for me to getting
started.
Jaye Lin (20:56):
Yeah, and a lot of it is, we wouldn't know, kind of
like, the optimal way to goforward without even
experiencing it. Right? Like, wehave all these ideas of how it's
going to go, and sometimes, itdoesn't even go that way. But
when we spend so much timeoptimizing for it, it's almost
(21:16):
like sunk cost fallacy, whereit's like, no, like, this has to
be it because I spent so muchtime making sure this is
perfect. This has to be theperfect way, and it can kind of
get in the way of the productbeing better. And a great
example is just this podcastepisode. At first, you know,
it's number one, I optimized ita whole lot. And even when you
(21:40):
two were like, "Yeah, you know,what do we need to prepare?" I
was just like, "well, I wantthis to be like real fresh, I
want to get your fresh reaction.
So I'm going to read it to youin, you know, our interview, and
then I'll, I'll give youseparate questions for you to
prepare". And then in my head, Icouldn't figure out what those
questions would be without justcompletely giving everything
(22:00):
away. And then I was just like,"why do they need to be
surprised? They got to knowabout this anyway, they know
about all this stuff. They don'tneed to be surprised. I can tell
them what I'm going to say". Andit worked out great. So I mean,
without me kind of saying like,"Dude, it's go time, you spent
(22:21):
several days thinking about itcouldn't think of any questions
that wouldn't, that would givea, that wouldn't give away the
surprise. It's just time to giveit to them. Let's let's move
forward." So having the space tobe like, "I'm over optimizing.
It's, it's time to go". I feellike that's super helpful.
Liz Welshman (22:45):
Totally, totally.
I will just say one thing aboutoptimizing and how it's shown up
in my life. And I think thatit's sometimes I have
underoptimized. For example,I've often had these, you know,
"oh, that's an amazing idea".
(23:05):
And I've started going on it,and realize, "Oh, I did not do
any of the checks and balancesin the early stage to actually
validate this idea". Like, forexample, I've had all these
amazing book ideas. One of themwas, Oh, my God, I'm gonna write
this book called, "All Dogs haveADHD". And it's gonna be
(23:27):
amazing. Like, because I'mlooking at my dog. I'm like,
"Whoa, you are everything thatis amazing about ADHD, you're
just so loving, you're sointuitive. And you just keep
coming back for more, and youjust get back up again. And I
basically started writing thisbook. And then I did a little
Google search, and I was like,"Oh, shit, somebody's already
(23:49):
written the best selling book.
All dogs have ADHD".
Ron Capalbo (23:55):
You have like, the website and everything. She's
got marketing material.
Liz Welshman (24:01):
I printed off 1000 copies of it. Sometimes a little
bit of optimization on the frontend, or a little bit of, you
know, critical thinking, holdingit up to the light a little bit
can be protective. So I guessit's kind of knowing the
difference, and not getting toocarried away on the excitement
Ron Capalbo (24:23):
I think with ADHDers, we find ourselves on
train.
each side of that to where it'san all or nothing thing, right.
Like I like to say how we haveour mouse sensitivity just all
the way up high. If you've gotit on one side of the computer
screen, you're trying to get tothe middle but it's just
(24:43):
shooting across to the otherside. Like that's who we are.
Because, like, yeah, it's eitherthe over planning or it's the
"fuck it let's go, I'm readylike now". And I wonder what
part of that ends up being ourcoping mechanism because of how
much planning stresses us outthat we become impulsive. But
(25:03):
then we get worried that we'reimpulsive, so then we over plan.
And it's trying to find thatmiddle ground of, okay, I've
planned enough, I have all theinformation I need to make this
happen. And how do you findthat? That's the trick. But it's
first, it's being aware thatthere is an enough, right, and
then it's figuring out how tostick that landing.
Jaye Lin (25:26):
Have you ever tried getting out of the optimization
trap even before you knew aboutit? And what did you do? And
what were the results? Becausethat happens to me a lot. And
this is something that in mylearning program, I always ask
because every everyone says,like, "Oh, I've been working on
it for too long, I've beenoptimizing for too long." And I
always say like, "how do youknow it's too long? What amount
(25:50):
of time is not too long?" Andthat is not something that a lot
of people think about, right?
Like we have been optimizing andoptimizing. We haven't started
another project yet, and now wefeel bad, because we haven't
started on the project yet, andwe've been optimizing for, I
don't know, four days. And thenthe overcorrection, like what
you were talking about, Ron, isthat the next project, we don't
(26:11):
let ourselves do anyoptimization. We just like, do
do do do do, which isn'tfulfilling, because optimization
feels good. And so we just keepswinging back and forth. But
really, one of the key ways Ithink, to get out of the
optimization trap is todeterminehow long is acceptable
for me to optimize. You know,like, if I, if I mark that ahead
(26:37):
of time, like I'm going to startdoing on Thursday. So between
now and Thursday, I can just golike balls to the walls on
optimizing, and not even feelbad about it. This is part of
the process. But come Thursday.
That's it, I'm gonna start doingit. What do you think?
Liz Welshman (26:57):
Yeah, that's a really cool way of looking at
it. My initial response to yourquestion was pluh balance, as if
I'm ever going to find that. Asif I'm ever going to find a
middle ground. But I don't, Idon't want to overplug coaching,
but the real key to me in thisis to be coached, right? That's
(27:20):
the only way I can get started.
And Jaye, you coached me on thislast week when I was really
stuck in that, well, in thatoptimization part of preparing
something for CHADD, which isnext week, and I, Oh, this week,
by the time we go to air. And I,I need that external, I need
(27:45):
that someone to bounce it off tosay, "Okay, where are you at?
What are you doing? What isgoing to be good enough?"
Because it's really hard for meto trust any sort of internal
reflection or measurement ofwhat would be good enough,
especially when accepting thatmoving from the planning stage
(28:08):
to the creation phase means Imight have to let go of this
idea of this amazing finalproduct. When is it ever going
to be okay for me to let go andmove forward? And I really need
someone external to bounce thatoff. Definitely.
Jaye Lin (28:27):
Yeah, and I think it's part of the process, because
initially, I did too. Andeventually, I got so used to
having those conversations thatI would just have those
conversations with myself. Youknow, I think they call it
rubber ducking, where we're justtalking to ourselves, like we
we're talking to someone else.
And I just started doing that.
(28:49):
And that's actually the reasonwhy this podcast episode is
going to go get released.
Because I said, "Hey, Jaye,you're in this pit of despair on
how, you know, you suck, and youcan't follow through on
anything." And then in my head,I'm just like, "can you really
not follow through witheverything? What isthe evidence
(29:11):
for that? And what do youactually need to do to feel like
you are doing something?" Andwhat I needed to do to feel like
I was doing something reallywasn't that much. Which was ask
Ron and Liz, if they want to beon this podcast episode.
Ron Capalbo (29:33):
Like now I'm committed.
Jaye Lin (29:34):
Take the first step.
Like, I already did it, they'reexpecting me to do it. I'm gonna
go forward. So, a part of it isjust, you know, how often are we
having those conversations? Ifit's, you know, once every
several months, it might notstick as much as, like a regular
conversation with someone aboutthis.
Ron Capalbo (29:55):
I've seen online so many people post like, Oh,
here's an ADHD hack. and somepeople will say like, "Oh,
that's great". And other peoplewe like, "tried, it doesn't
work". And I think it's why, andagain, not to plug coaching,
like Liz was doing. But I thinkit's why coaching is so
beneficial, because it's notjust us sitting here telling you
(30:17):
what you're supposed to do. It'syou telling us what you think
you should do. And that's kindof empowering to explore that
and see what what comes withthat. Because I, I resonate so
much too, when, I mean, I don'tknow if anybody else does this.
But when I have an idea, I sayit out loud. And I'm just
looking for someone to grab ontoit. Right? Like, that's what I
(30:41):
need is like, the motivator,because I'm someone that wants
to do things with people liketeamwork is a huge strength of
mine, that when when I get in onsome, with someone, but then
similar to you, Jaye, when Ihave someone that I'm I'm doing
it for, so there's anaccountability, where you told
us like, "Hey, we're doing thison this day". Now you got to
(31:03):
make it happen. But there's,there's so many different ways
to go about it. Right? It couldbe the accountability partner,
it could be, you know, what didyou call it rubber ducking
that's amazing. Rubber Ducking,right? It could be, you know,
doing something musicallyrelated. It could be doing
something for someone else, likethere's so many different paths,
(31:24):
but it's really finding whatyour hack is for you. And, but
realizing, and I think this allcomes down to, that it is a
thing that needs to happen, youneed to find what that optimal
thing is, but how you do it,there's, I think there's a lot
of different ways to go aboutit.
Liz Welshman (31:42):
What a shame it would be if you didn't feel safe
to put your crazy wild ideas outinto the world with the
knowledge that you're gonna havesome of you sort of more planny
friends around you to go, "uh,hang on, that's an awesome idea,
but here's why it might notwork". And you, Yeah, you could
(32:03):
really easily go back into yourshell and go, I'm gonna stop
sharing my ideas, because theyall think they're dumb and
crazy, but I'm gonna keep doingit anyway.
Ron Capalbo (32:12):
I think though, there's, there's definitely been
times where I've had that stigmathat I think a lot of ADHDers
who are labeled as ideas peoplehave, where it's so easy to say,
"Wow, you have great ideas.
There's a lot of them. Some ofthem are crazy, but every once
in a while, like oh my gosh,that's perfect. That's exactly
(32:33):
what we need", right? Comparedto someone going, "Wow, you just
come up with these, like batshitcrazy ideas, and you'd never do
anything". Like those are twodifferent perspectives on the
same thing. And I've had thatbefore. I've had people say
that, you know, it isn't whatyou think it's what you do. And
there's, there's shame involvedin that. And that can cause my
(32:57):
ideas to be like, "Well, I don'twant to say anything right now.
Like, I feel like my ideas aredumb". And that kind of speaks
to how our self talk can becompletely influenced by one or
two, just negative perspectivesthat people have about us. So
yeah, anytime that we're like,"I never do this", it comes from
(33:18):
somebody else, not you. And thenit, it starts to become who, you
know, your self fulfillingprophecy.
Jaye Lin (33:27):
Yeah. And I also want to bring up the other side of
that, right. And when I waslistening to you talk, I noted
that it was "wow, you havereally good ideas". And then the
second piece was "you have ideasand you don't do anything". And,
and I think the key betweenthose is the doing things part,
right? Because I come from thecorporate world, you know, I
(33:49):
worked for Google and Yahoo, andall these other companies
before. And a big piece was, Iwas constantly having these
ideas. And everyone was justlike, I don't have time to spend
more time doing your idea. I'msuper busy, and I just need to
get my work done. And for me,the way that I took that was
they think my ideas are bad. Andit's really something else
(34:12):
entirely, which was, hey, if youwant to go ahead and do this, go
ahead and do it, but you arenot. You're expecting other
people to execute on your ideas,and that's not okay. You need
to, you need to pull your weightaround here. And when I figured
that out, where it's just like,okay, everyone will be on board
(34:32):
with me if I do it. If theydon't need to do a lot of extra
work in order for my ideas to goforward, it's much more likely
that they'll be on board withme. And that's exactly what
happened. Like I did thelogistical work and I did all
the other stuff that kind of,you know, kind of sucks. But
(34:52):
it's part of the optimization tokind of be like, "Hey, how do I
convince them that this is agood idea".
Liz Welshman (34:59):
Totally, totally.
And nobody's ever gonna careabout your idea as much as you
do, right? Like nobody. Andthat's, that's why collaboration
is so powerful. And it is for metoo, I get so much out of that.
Nobody's ever going to want toexecute and see this happen as
much as I'm going to want to sayit happen.
Jaye Lin (35:24):
Yeah, but that's just another example of how it's a
distortion. Our reaction tosomething is a distortion in
that that isn't what they wereeven saying to us. But what we
took away from a lot of it wasthey're not into my ideas, or
they think my ideas are notgood, or they don't think that I
(35:47):
can follow through on stuff. Andthat's actually not what they're
trying to say, at all. Most ofthe time, I would say, it's,
it's really something else thatis less... shitty? Yeah,less
shitty. That's the best wordthat I can think of.
Liz Welshman (36:07):
Yeah, it's more like, I just don't have time for
that. Don't put more stuff on myplate. Go, yeah, cool. Go do go
do it yourself.
Jaye Lin (36:15):
Are there any other ways that you think you can ease
the overwhelm of planning andexecuting?
Ron Capalbo (36:21):
Yeah, I think when it comes to over optimizing and
over planning, there's so manydifferent reasons that we do it.
And so I really think step oneis figuring out what the reason
is that it's happening. And itcan be different for the same
person for different situations,like I think I was talking about
before, it could be just fear ofnot being good enough, right? It
(36:45):
could be that you don't knowwhat to do next. It can be the
uncertainty of. It could be yournegative self talk, you know,
having a fixed mindset of, Inever finished things, I'm not
going to do this. It could bethe overwhelm of us being
conceptual, top down thinkers,that we are kind of aware of
(37:08):
everything that's going to gointo what we have to do. And so
all of those things requiredifferent ways to handle that,
you know, there's differentstrategies to fix all of those
situations. And so, the first iskind of sitting down and seeing,
I like calling it like theinvisible monster, it's like,
throw a sheet on top of thisinvisible monster and see what
(37:29):
it looks like and the best wayto defeat it, right? You know, I
love the the movie term, "thejaws effect", when they say the
reason that Jaws was so scary isbecause they didn't see the
monster until the end of thefilm. And so often, we don't see
what the monster is that we'refacing. And so being able to
pinpoint what it is specificallythat we're dealing with, is
(37:53):
always going to be step one, andfrom there being like, oh, okay,
I'm overwhelmed with everythingthat's going to have to... and
from there, I can figure outwhat steps I need to take. Or I
don't know what to do. Thatmight be where you bring a
friend up, and you you asksomeone's opinion, or writing
out a list of ideas of what todo next. But it's, there's
there's different reasons forthe optimization trap each time.
(38:14):
And so figuring out what it isyou're up against, I think is,
is the key.
Jaye Lin (38:20):
What deliberate thoughts or actions can we take
to make optimization a slingshotinstead of a trap?
Liz Welshman (38:25):
I think the most important thing for clients and
for myself is a mix of selfawareness with self compassion.
So knowing what your strengthsand weaknesses are. Knowing what
gets you going. If you aresomeone who is really needing to
(38:45):
ride the wave of that initialdopamine surge that gets you
going, use it. Don't try andmake it perfect. Just go for it.
If that's what does it for you,do it. I also, I love your idea
of, if you know that you'resomeone who spends ages in that
beginning bit of planning, letyourself sit in it. Let yourself
(39:08):
enjoy it and roll around in theshit of it for a set number of
days, but then, okay, I have toget started. I think also, it's
really common for people withADHD to be stuck in this magical
thinking. And we really believethat there'll be some point in
(39:28):
the future where doing the thingwon't feel shitty. Doing the
boring stuff to get us at thisamazing endpoint won't feel like
hard work. Accepting at theoutset, okay, the actual doing
the actual creation is oftengonna feel, yuck, it's gonna
suck, but that we were gonnahave to do it anyway. And it's
(39:51):
in that engagement and in thatdoing that we get the result
that we're hopefully after.
Jaye Lin (39:58):
Yeah, I also like to to include other people, and I
brought this up earlier. Buthaving a place where I'm, I'm
checking for feedback, right?
If, if what I'm wanting is otherpeople excited about this
project with me, and that is theoutcome that I would like, "oh,
when people will be excitedabout my podcast". If I'm just
(40:18):
like, "Yeah, I'm starting apodcast!" And everyone else is
like, "Oh, why?" Then I'd belike, "Hmmm, I don't know if
this is something that I want tokeep going on". Right? But
usually, the other thinghappens, where I'm just like,
"yeah, Ron, Liz, I think I'mgonna go forward with my
podcast. I was wondering ifyou'd be my guests for the first
episode". And for you to belike, "yeah, fuck yeah! We're
(40:42):
stoked!" And that just reallyreinvigorated everything for me.
And so having moments where it'sjust like, "Yeah, I'm working on
my podcast, I finished editingmy initial like, Intro today",
or "I finished my logo. I didall this stuff" and having
everyone be like, "yeah, yeah,yeah!" That really just pushed
(41:02):
me forward. And even if I was inthe optimization part, I would
be so eager to show everyonewhat the result is that it will
push me forward, instead of mejust saying, like, "oh, well, it
has to be better. It has to bebetter". It's like, No, I'm
showing people what I have now.
And they're like, "this isgreat. This is great". When I
(41:25):
showed you my logo, and you'rejust like, "Oh, I love it". That
was really the point in timewhere I'm just like, "I'm not
going to touch it anymore. Thisis it. I'm going to upload it.
It's gonna go". Right? So whatwill give us that feeling of
like, "Hey, this is good. I'mgonna move on"? And a lot of it
is the feedback. Like if I'malready getting the excitement
(41:45):
from everyone, and I feel goodabout it what reasons do I have
to mess around with it more?
Right? let's let's move on. If Ididn't show anyone my logo, I'd
be like, "well, you know, couldbe better. I don't know. I don't
know. I don't know". And Ireally wouldn't know. Because
when I showed you my initiallogo, and you're just like,
"Yeah, you know, I kind of likethis idea. But this idea" and
then I played around with itmore. I was just like, "oh, this
(42:06):
is the one", right? But if Ididn't show you I would have
just been spinning! I would havemade, like a million logos! I
would have just kept goingforever and ever.
Where can our listeners go ifthey want to connect or learn
more about you?
Ron Capalbo (42:23):
You can follow me on Instagram and Tiktok. On
Instagram, I'm @adhd_ron, onTiktok, @adhdcoachron or you can
just go to my website,adhdcoachron.com. Right there,
you can sign up for a freeconsultation, check out my group
classes, my individual coaching,and then also, there's a huge
(42:45):
breakdown of my origin story, mywhole ADHD journey, and all
about me.
Liz Welshman (42:52):
You can find me on my website, which is
narcissistically namedlizwelshman.com. My Instagram is
@bouncy_ADHD. So bouncy,B-O-U-N-C-Y underscore ADHD.
Jaye Lin (43:13):
You've made it to the end of our very first episode.
To recap, it can be easy to gettrapped in the optimization
phase of any project or venturebecause our ADHD can make
optimizing feel a whole lotbetter than getting started. If
you find yourself in theoptimization trap, Liz, Ron, and
I have a few suggestions. Pauseto figure out what factors are
(43:36):
keeping us in the optimizationtrap, a place where ADHD
coaching can help Bringing otherhumans into the process for a
boost of dopamine to startproducing results. Keeping the
growth perspective in mind whenwe start to doubt our abilities
to fulfill our lofty goals.
Determine what amount of time isacceptable for optimizing, so we
can get our creative juicesflowing and make sure we feel
(43:58):
good about it. And keep in mindthat once we're in the muck of
things, we can sometimes have abetter idea of what works and
what doesn't. So save some ofthat optimizing for when we have
better clarity of the parametersand limitations.
If you found this episodeenjoyable or informative, please
(44:18):
tell your friends and familymembers with ADHD, and/or give
us a review wherever you getyour podcasts. If you want to
read transcripts or show notes,find out more about me, Jaye
Lin, or give suggestions onfuture episodes. Please go to
our website, npadhd.com. That'sthe acronym for now presenting
ADHD, npadhd.com. Or you canfollow us on Instagram @npadhd.
(44:47):
Thank you for listening, and wehope to see you again soon.
Hi, this is now presenting ADHD, where we look
at common ways ADHD can presentin individuals, explain what the
root causes can be, and connectthe experience to real humans.
I'm your host, Jaye Lin. I'm anADHD coach, instructor, and
generally nice person. This isour first episode. I've been
(00:22):
intending to start this podcastfor over a year, and in true
ADHD fashion, I couldn't decidehow to start. Every time I came
up with a topic, I could thinkof a million reasons why it
shouldn't be the first one.
Another subject is morecompelling, or an easier
introduction. This topic is toomeaty, or too sparse. Better
keep brainstorming.
(00:44):
I kept chasing an ideal,continually realizing it wasn't
perfect. After that happenedenough times, I would feel
overwhelmed and unsure, andwould end up shelving the
project for another day. Itwould stay on that proverbial
shelf until I got the podcastitch again, but the process
would just repeat itself, and Iwould feel worse throughout each
cycle.
(01:06):
Is this something you resonatewith? Having a project or
interest you feel so stronglyabout, but can't seem to take
any real steps towardscompletion, because you're stuck
trying to brainstorm theabsolute best approach? Or if
you do find the best possiblesolution, do you find yourself
anxious at the idea of executingthat perfect solution? If you
(01:27):
do, you're not alone. Nowpresenting ADHD and what I call
the optimization trap.
Have you ever been reallyexcited about a project or hobby
(01:49):
but couldn't seem to moveforward beyond thinking of all
the possibilities? Has thishappened more than once? Does
this keep happening? This is avery common frustration point
for many people with ADHD, andit's easy to understand why. If
I volunteered for this project,and this is something I want to
do, why can't I actually do it?
This resistance against movingon to the doing phase can be
(02:12):
destructive to our workperformance and lead us to
distrust our passions andinterests. A lot of ADHD
individuals I talked to feellike this is unavoidable with
ADHD, and that they have to justlive with their frustration and
disappointment with themselves.
Well, it's possible to moveforward in those scenarios, as
supported by this podcastepisode that you're listening
(02:35):
to.
So how do we get ourselves toexecute on things? It helps to
understand why this is such acommon ADHD presentation. Let's
talk Brain Stuff.
Our ADHD brains tend to operateon a deficiency of dopamine, and
one of the effects of this isthat when we do get a hit of
dopamine, it feels very, verygood. Creativity, especially the
(03:00):
challenging kind, gets ourdopamine levels to surge. Think
about how you feel when you'recoming up with the optimal
solution that solves for manythings, even things no one else
is asking for. Wow, that feelsgood, doesn't it? In those
creative and challengingoptimization moments, higher
levels of dopamine get ournormally chaotic brain to go in
(03:22):
clear directions, and we cancome up with complex ideas. The
shift from jumbled brain toclear brain adds even more
feel-good onto our dopaminehigh. So what happens when it's
time to do the actual planningand take the logistical steps
forward? The creativity surge ofdopamine is no longer there, and
(03:43):
our dopamine returns to normal,lower levels. With lower
dopamine levels, our executivedysfunction returns. Those
optimum solutions we came upwith can require many extra
moving parts. With jumbledbrain, approaching the planning
process can feel reallyoverwhelming. The overwhelm
itself doesn't feel good, butour inability to effectively
(04:05):
move forward also doesn't makeus feel good about ourselves. We
felt so good when brainstorming,and now how do we feel? Bad.
Stuck. Helpless. Insecure.
So what's a person with ADHD todo in this situation? What we
(04:26):
commonly do. Bail. Stop workingon the project and go do
something else. But there'sanother thing we do, too. We go
back to where we felt good,safe, and empowered. Back to
optimization.
Perfectionism is a term that isoften used in ADHD circles.
(04:46):
Almost every ADHD individual Iknow considers themselves to be
a perfectionist at some things,if not everything. I however,
don't consider perfectionism tobe the most accurate term when
describing this phenomenon.
Instead, I use the wordoptimization.
Perfectionism implies apossibility of a perfect result
(05:09):
that can be achieved anddefined. Optimization doesn't.
Perfectionism is a standard wemeasure ourselves to. It can be
defined by size, angles, color,brilliance, and other metrics.
Optimization is undefined andvaries greatly depending on the
situation and individualsinvolved. Because of this,
(05:32):
optimization is a trap that wecan fall into if we're not
careful. If we want to get awayfrom feeling overwhelmed and
helpless, there is an endlessamount of optimization we can
do. And there we stay,optimizing, optimizing, and not
actually doing.
(05:53):
So what results do we get fromthis? If there's no urgency or
deadline, sometimes we juststall and never pick the project
back up. If there's a deadline,a common occurrence is to get an
adrenaline boost that kicks upour dopamine, and makes it so
that we can get things done atthe last minute. But it's the
(06:13):
last minute. So are we able tofully execute on that lofty
optimized solution that we cameup with? Most likely not.
At that point, we're doingwhatever we need to in order to
get it complete? And then whathappens afterward? Do we feel
good about our results? Do wefeel victorious that we
(06:35):
completed our project? Or do weinvalidate the success?
Do we compare our results to theoptimized solution and feel bad?
Do we compare the results to theamount of time we spent working
on this including optimizationtime?
If the completion was lessdreadful than we anticipated, do
(06:56):
we give ourselves a hard timefor not doing it sooner, or not
doing it with enough time toexecute on the optimized result?
What happens when we feel crappyafter completion? The next time
we're ready to transition out ofoptimization, do we feel better
or worse about moving forwardwith planning, given the
negative feelings we've attachedto our project execution?
(07:20):
Here's a good place for me toget off my monologue and have
some friends join me. Pleasewelcome Liz and Ron.
Liz Welshman (07:28):
I'm Liz Welshman.
I'm an ADHD coach andconsultant, and I'm also a
parent of a kid with ADHD, and Ihave ADHD myself. I am not a
niche coach. I'm pretty much thetown bike when it comes to
coaching. My favorite client isalways the last person I
coached. Very happy to be here.
Ron Capalbo (07:50):
Hi, I'm Ron Capalbo, otherwise known as ADHD
Coach Ron. I'm a coach, advocateand instructor living in the LA
area. I love making ADHD contenton Instagram and Tiktok. And
along with individual coaching,I run a few group coaching
classes that have been a greatway for clients to get coaching
at a fraction of the cost, whilealso meeting other ADHDers in
(08:13):
the community that help validatethose struggles.
Jaye Lin (08:16):
Okay, welcome to both of you! I'm so excited that
you're here in the firstepisode. So do either of you
resonate with theoptimizationtrap?
Liz Welshman (08:27):
I do big time. And I really love the way you've
explained this. I've actuallynever thought of myself as a
perfectionist, because theoutput is so far away from
perfect most of the time. ButI'm definitely someone who
optimizes on the back end. Sorather than trying to get it
(08:51):
right on the front, I just havea lot of trouble completing the
things that I get started on.
And I think for me, it comesdown to this really big fear of
mediocrity. I don't need what Icreate to be amazing or mind
blowing. I'm just terrified ofit being mediocre. It's like the
worst thing that could happen tome.
Jaye Lin (09:13):
So it's okay if it like totally sucks. And it's
okay if it's really good. Butanything in between, oh gosh?
Liz Welshman (09:21):
Ugh, yeah. Being average. Gross.
Jaye Lin (09:27):
Okay, Ron, what about you?
Ron Capalbo (09:28):
Yeah, I love the optimization term, because
perfectionism never, like reallysat well with me. I realized
that it was closer toperfectionism than laziness,
which, which was a reallyinteresting kind of thing that I
figured out. But yeah, the thingis, there's so many different
(09:49):
reasons why I struggle. It's notjust because of the
perfectionism. You know, it'sbecause of the motivation. It's
because of the fear. It'sbecause of the uncertainty and
all of that kind of wraps up inoptimization really well for me,
so I love that.
Jaye Lin (10:05):
Yeah. And I like to use optimization also, because
it's not a bad thing to strivefor perfection, right? Like, if
we say we're perfectionists,that just means that we are
striving for perfection. Andthat is a quality that most
societies really encourage.
Like, we don't want to becomplacent. We want to always be
(10:29):
like, better and better andbetter. But optimization. It can
never be perfect, right? Like,what are we striving toward?
We're striving toward a lot ofdifferent things. And it can go
in a lot of differentdirections. And oftentimes, I
feel like I have an idea of whatthe optimal result is, and then
I start doing it, and itchanges. And the more I spend
(10:49):
optimizing, the less I spendactually seeing what works, that
makes sense.
Ron Capalbo (10:58):
I've always had this thought of like, looking
for what the right answer is forsomething. And I wonder if it is
a societal thing, where it's,you know, sure, no one's gonna
be perfect. But if you strivefor perfect, and you come up
short, you're gonna be betteroff than somebody that just
settles, like, that's always thefear that someone's gonna settle
for something. And, and I think,us not getting that recognition,
(11:21):
too, right? If you settle forsomething, someone might not
give you the the validation thatif you just get something done,
it's acceptable, and you moveon. But if you do something
extraordinary, that's whenpeople are oppressed. That's
when you get that kind ofdopamine, maybe from other
people, that validation thatyou're looking for it. So we
start striving for excellencefor it, because that's what
(11:44):
gives us the the dopamine we'relooking for.
Jaye Lin (11:48):
Yeah, but then also, my optimum is not the same as
someone else's optimum, right.
So I mean, we're searching forthis validation that like, Wow,
you did such a great job. Andsometimes we don't even get
that. Because they're like,Yeah, you know, this isn't, this
isn't the optimal solution. Andthey don't give us the
proportionate praise that wewere striving for. And it just
(12:09):
is frustrating. It makes usdistrust ourselves, it makes,
you know, it makes us doubtthis, even the skills and the
knowledge of the people givingus this feedback, because it's
just like, "Ughh, are youstupid?", you know, like, or, or
like, "are you not payingattention? This was the optimal
result. Why are you saying it'snot?" And optimum for each
(12:32):
person varies, so it becomesreally difficult to figure out
what exactly we want out ofthis. Right? It just becomes a
way for us to grade ourselvesand realize that we didn't
measure up to what we wanted tobe.
Liz Welshman (12:55):
Jaye, another thing that I notice in my
clients, and in myself is thatbecause we are such, so many of
us are such top down thinkers,so we need to sort of have a
real idea of the end product.
And before we can get started,but like you said, so much of
the creation of anything good isin this messy, in the middle
(13:16):
engagement bit. But the dopaminein the beginning of the big
idea, the big exciting idea, andmaybe hopefully, in the end at
the end where people say, yeah,great job amazing. But where the
actual creation comes is thatengagement, and that's the messy
(13:36):
yucky bit that optimizationkeeps us from.
Ron Capalbo (13:42):
There's so many different reasons, right? It
could be a fear of getting itwrong, the fear of disappointing
others disappointing yourself.
It could be just lack ofmotivation or uncertainty. But I
want to kind of speak to thefear thing a little bit, because
of how we try to avoiduncomfortable feelings so much.
So if we ever had a point in ourlives where we felt like we
(14:04):
disappointed someone, or we weredisappointed in ourselves, and
just how, especially for peoplethat are highly emotional and
can feel things more than say,the average person, that
disappointment becomes such aroadblock for us that we have
to, especially if it's somethingthat we're trying for the first
time, we don't want to fail,because of that fear, that
(14:28):
becomes this huge barrier infront of us that, we're not
looking at getting better atsomething and seeing where we
are. We're saying if I fail atthis, it's going to feel
terrible. It's going to feelawful. I'm going to hate every
moment of it. And so going withwhat Liz was saying as being
conceptual, you know, top downthinkers, we are thinking about
(14:51):
every possible scenario, everyfeeling that might come along
the way and if disappointment ison the horizon, there's a very
good chance that's going to shutus down.
Jaye Lin (15:05):
Yeah. And it also becomes somewhat of a self
fulfilling prophecy, when we areso scared of what's going to
happen, and what if I'm not goodenough that that's all we pay
attention to, you know, like,where we fell short. And we're,
we're not always seeing whatwe're doing right, or how this
experience will contribute tofuture instances of doing this.
(15:31):
And it's the fear kind of justcompounds over time until it
becomes unbearable. And yeah, webail. Yeah, totally.
What examples from yourexperience can you share with
our listeners?
Ron Capalbo (15:46):
So I make Tiktok videos and instagram videos
online. And I remember, not onlythe first time but so many times
during the past couple of yearsthat I've done this, where I've
had an idea for a video andstarted it, and something got in
the way, or there was a worrythat came up, and insecurity, so
(16:09):
to speak, where I'm like, "Idon't know if people are gonna
like this", or "I don't know ifwhat I'm trying to communicate
is gonna get across". Andthere's been times where those
just stay in drafts. There'ssome that I love so much to and
still haven't posted, becauseit's not exactly what I'm
looking for. And I'm starting toworry that people might take
(16:30):
this the wrong way, or theyaren't going to get this and
this, all this work is going tobe for nothing, and it's going
to be a disappointment. And youknow, there might be some
backlash for the way I'm sayingsomething and all these thoughts
go through my head. So So yeah,I remember going back to the
first time I posted somethingtook me like a month before I
posted any video online. Butjust, I don't even know if this
(16:54):
was part of the question youasked, but like what I've done
about it, and what's likechanged about it? I would say,
you know that first time, when Iposted I go back to that video
all the time. And as the kidssay, I look at it as super
cringe. It's a video that I'mjust like, you know, this is
this is cheesy. This is cheesyand a little bit embarrassing,
(17:16):
but that's okay. But I showthat, actually, to a lot of
clients when they talk to meabout any of the videos I make,
because I say that that video isthe reason that, I mean,
honestly the reason I decided tobecome an ADHD coach started
with that video. Like I didn'tstart taking classes ADDCA until
after that video. I didn't startmaking other videos until that
(17:39):
video happened. That was stepone. If we were to look back at
the ups and downs and theexcitements and the fears that
have happened over the past twoyears, that video was step one
for me. And I, there was a timeI thought about deleting it, but
I leave it there, and I showpeople that, as a reminder that
my recent videos that I lovethat I'm so proud of I've helped
(18:03):
so many people would never havehappened if it wasn't for that
one. And something that reallyresonated with me at that time
was I started to think of thingsin a growth mindset, instead of
a fixed mindset. The idea oflike, I'm not going to get
better unless I see where I'mat, unless I look back at it and
self reflect. And then see fromthat finished product, what it
(18:25):
is that I want to get better at.
And each time that I've donethat I've gotten better. What do
you know? So I'm very proud ofthat. And it's something I still
remind myself, it's not fixed,right? Like, I made a video the
other day that I deleted I waslike, "This is crap. I'm not
gonna gonna ever post this".
(18:46):
And, and so it's, it's, I haveto constantly remind myself and
constantly check in to make surethat I'm growing. And I'm not
just stopped with, you know, myinsecurities or my fixed mindset
that I think always creeps in.
And it's never gonna go away.
But it is figuring out how to beokay with it, and learn from it.
Jaye Lin (19:08):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought up the growth
mindset because I feel like thatis so huge when it comes to the
optimization trap, right?
Because we we want to geteverything perfect on the first
time.
Liz Welshman (19:20):
By the way, it doesn't make me cringe looking
at your first TikTok.
Ron Capalbo (19:25):
Have you seen my first TikTok? Did I show you my
first TikTok? Man.
Yeah! And I love it! Becauseit's so fucking ballsy to just
do something for the first time.
And what you said about thegrowth mindset, or the fact that
we have fixed mindsets is soimportant, because I think a lot
(19:45):
of us would like to think aboutourselves that well, we're
making mistakes all the time.
And actually we live in a waythat is kind of aligned with a
growth mindset because we fall,we get back up again, we keep
going we're all prettyresilient. But because of this
temporal discounting thathappens, it's really hard to
(20:06):
imagine the work that we'reputting in now as being part of
a really long continuum ofprogress, rather than just
something that we're doing tocreate this amazing product. And
yeah, speaking of cringe, thatonce there's really cheesy
saying around, it's somethinglike, you know, don't compare
(20:27):
your day one to somebody's day1000, or whatever it is. And I
know that, especially when itcomes to things like speaking,
I'm really comparing myself as alittle rookie, baby novice
speaker, with someone who'ssuper polished and amazing, and
who's been doing itprofessionally for years. And
(20:49):
that, really, you know, that's areal barrier for me to getting
started.
Jaye Lin (20:56):
Yeah, and a lot of it is, we wouldn't know, kind of
like, the optimal way to goforward without even
experiencing it. Right? Like, wehave all these ideas of how it's
going to go, and sometimes, itdoesn't even go that way. But
when we spend so much timeoptimizing for it, it's almost
(21:16):
like sunk cost fallacy, whereit's like, no, like, this has to
be it because I spent so muchtime making sure this is
perfect. This has to be theperfect way, and it can kind of
get in the way of the productbeing better. And a great
example is just this podcastepisode. At first, you know,
it's number one, I optimized ita whole lot. And even when you
(21:40):
two were like, "Yeah, you know,what do we need to prepare?" I
was just like, "well, I wantthis to be like real fresh, I
want to get your fresh reaction.
So I'm going to read it to youin, you know, our interview, and
then I'll, I'll give youseparate questions for you to
prepare". And then in my head, Icouldn't figure out what those
questions would be without justcompletely giving everything
(22:00):
away. And then I was just like,"why do they need to be
surprised? They got to knowabout this anyway, they know
about all this stuff. They don'tneed to be surprised. I can tell
them what I'm going to say". Andit worked out great. So I mean,
without me kind of saying like,"Dude, it's go time, you spent
(22:21):
several days thinking about itcouldn't think of any questions
that wouldn't, that would givea, that wouldn't give away the
surprise. It's just time to giveit to them. Let's let's move
forward." So having the space tobe like, "I'm over optimizing.
It's, it's time to go". I feellike that's super helpful.
Liz Welshman (22:45):
Totally, totally.
I will just say one thing aboutoptimizing and how it's shown up
in my life. And I think thatit's sometimes I have
underoptimized. For example,I've often had these, you know,
"oh, that's an amazing idea".
(23:05):
And I've started going on it,and realize, "Oh, I did not do
any of the checks and balancesin the early stage to actually
validate this idea". Like, forexample, I've had all these
amazing book ideas. One of themwas, Oh, my God, I'm gonna write
this book called, "All Dogs haveADHD". And it's gonna be
(23:27):
amazing. Like, because I'mlooking at my dog. I'm like,
"Whoa, you are everything thatis amazing about ADHD, you're
just so loving, you're sointuitive. And you just keep
coming back for more, and youjust get back up again. And I
basically started writing thisbook. And then I did a little
Google search, and I was like,"Oh, shit, somebody's already
(23:49):
written the best selling book.
All dogs have ADHD".
Ron Capalbo (23:55):
You have like, the website and everything. She's
got marketing material.
Liz Welshman (24:01):
I printed off 1000 copies of it. Sometimes a little
bit of optimization on the frontend, or a little bit of, you
know, critical thinking, holdingit up to the light a little bit
can be protective. So I guessit's kind of knowing the
difference, and not getting toocarried away on the excitement
Ron Capalbo (24:23):
I think with ADHDers, we find ourselves on
train.
each side of that to where it'san all or nothing thing, right.
Like I like to say how we haveour mouse sensitivity just all
the way up high. If you've gotit on one side of the computer
screen, you're trying to get tothe middle but it's just
(24:43):
shooting across to the otherside. Like that's who we are.
Because, like, yeah, it's eitherthe over planning or it's the
"fuck it let's go, I'm readylike now". And I wonder what
part of that ends up being ourcoping mechanism because of how
much planning stresses us outthat we become impulsive. But
(25:03):
then we get worried that we'reimpulsive, so then we over plan.
And it's trying to find thatmiddle ground of, okay, I've
planned enough, I have all theinformation I need to make this
happen. And how do you findthat? That's the trick. But it's
first, it's being aware thatthere is an enough, right, and
then it's figuring out how tostick that landing.
Jaye Lin (25:26):
Have you ever tried getting out of the optimization
trap even before you knew aboutit? And what did you do? And
what were the results? Becausethat happens to me a lot. And
this is something that in mylearning program, I always ask
because every everyone says,like, "Oh, I've been working on
it for too long, I've beenoptimizing for too long." And I
always say like, "how do youknow it's too long? What amount
(25:50):
of time is not too long?" Andthat is not something that a lot
of people think about, right?
Like we have been optimizing andoptimizing. We haven't started
another project yet, and now wefeel bad, because we haven't
started on the project yet, andwe've been optimizing for, I
don't know, four days. And thenthe overcorrection, like what
you were talking about, Ron, isthat the next project, we don't
(26:11):
let ourselves do anyoptimization. We just like, do
do do do do, which isn'tfulfilling, because optimization
feels good. And so we just keepswinging back and forth. But
really, one of the key ways Ithink, to get out of the
optimization trap is todeterminehow long is acceptable
for me to optimize. You know,like, if I, if I mark that ahead
(26:37):
of time, like I'm going to startdoing on Thursday. So between
now and Thursday, I can just golike balls to the walls on
optimizing, and not even feelbad about it. This is part of
the process. But come Thursday.
That's it, I'm gonna start doingit. What do you think?
Liz Welshman (26:57):
Yeah, that's a really cool way of looking at
it. My initial response to yourquestion was pluh balance, as if
I'm ever going to find that. Asif I'm ever going to find a
middle ground. But I don't, Idon't want to overplug coaching,
but the real key to me in thisis to be coached, right? That's
(27:20):
the only way I can get started.
And Jaye, you coached me on thislast week when I was really
stuck in that, well, in thatoptimization part of preparing
something for CHADD, which isnext week, and I, Oh, this week,
by the time we go to air. And I,I need that external, I need
(27:45):
that someone to bounce it off tosay, "Okay, where are you at?
What are you doing? What isgoing to be good enough?"
Because it's really hard for meto trust any sort of internal
reflection or measurement ofwhat would be good enough,
especially when accepting thatmoving from the planning stage
(28:08):
to the creation phase means Imight have to let go of this
idea of this amazing finalproduct. When is it ever going
to be okay for me to let go andmove forward? And I really need
someone external to bounce thatoff. Definitely.
Jaye Lin (28:27):
Yeah, and I think it's part of the process, because
initially, I did too. Andeventually, I got so used to
having those conversations thatI would just have those
conversations with myself. Youknow, I think they call it
rubber ducking, where we're justtalking to ourselves, like we
we're talking to someone else.
And I just started doing that.
(28:49):
And that's actually the reasonwhy this podcast episode is
going to go get released.
Because I said, "Hey, Jaye,you're in this pit of despair on
how, you know, you suck, and youcan't follow through on
anything." And then in my head,I'm just like, "can you really
not follow through witheverything? What isthe evidence
(29:11):
for that? And what do youactually need to do to feel like
you are doing something?" Andwhat I needed to do to feel like
I was doing something reallywasn't that much. Which was ask
Ron and Liz, if they want to beon this podcast episode.
Ron Capalbo (29:33):
Like now I'm committed.
Jaye Lin (29:34):
Take the first step.
Like, I already did it, they'reexpecting me to do it. I'm gonna
go forward. So, a part of it isjust, you know, how often are we
having those conversations? Ifit's, you know, once every
several months, it might notstick as much as, like a regular
conversation with someone aboutthis.
Ron Capalbo (29:55):
I've seen online so many people post like, Oh,
here's an ADHD hack. and somepeople will say like, "Oh,
that's great". And other peoplewe like, "tried, it doesn't
work". And I think it's why, andagain, not to plug coaching,
like Liz was doing. But I thinkit's why coaching is so
beneficial, because it's notjust us sitting here telling you
(30:17):
what you're supposed to do. It'syou telling us what you think
you should do. And that's kindof empowering to explore that
and see what what comes withthat. Because I, I resonate so
much too, when, I mean, I don'tknow if anybody else does this.
But when I have an idea, I sayit out loud. And I'm just
looking for someone to grab ontoit. Right? Like, that's what I
(30:41):
need is like, the motivator,because I'm someone that wants
to do things with people liketeamwork is a huge strength of
mine, that when when I get in onsome, with someone, but then
similar to you, Jaye, when Ihave someone that I'm I'm doing
it for, so there's anaccountability, where you told
us like, "Hey, we're doing thison this day". Now you got to
(31:03):
make it happen. But there's,there's so many different ways
to go about it. Right? It couldbe the accountability partner,
it could be, you know, what didyou call it rubber ducking
that's amazing. Rubber Ducking,right? It could be, you know,
doing something musicallyrelated. It could be doing
something for someone else, likethere's so many different paths,
(31:24):
but it's really finding whatyour hack is for you. And, but
realizing, and I think this allcomes down to, that it is a
thing that needs to happen, youneed to find what that optimal
thing is, but how you do it,there's, I think there's a lot
of different ways to go aboutit.
Liz Welshman (31:42):
What a shame it would be if you didn't feel safe
to put your crazy wild ideas outinto the world with the
knowledge that you're gonna havesome of you sort of more planny
friends around you to go, "uh,hang on, that's an awesome idea,
but here's why it might notwork". And you, Yeah, you could
(32:03):
really easily go back into yourshell and go, I'm gonna stop
sharing my ideas, because theyall think they're dumb and
crazy, but I'm gonna keep doingit anyway.
Ron Capalbo (32:12):
I think though, there's, there's definitely been
times where I've had that stigmathat I think a lot of ADHDers
who are labeled as ideas peoplehave, where it's so easy to say,
"Wow, you have great ideas.
There's a lot of them. Some ofthem are crazy, but every once
in a while, like oh my gosh,that's perfect. That's exactly
(32:33):
what we need", right? Comparedto someone going, "Wow, you just
come up with these, like batshitcrazy ideas, and you'd never do
anything". Like those are twodifferent perspectives on the
same thing. And I've had thatbefore. I've had people say
that, you know, it isn't whatyou think it's what you do. And
there's, there's shame involvedin that. And that can cause my
(32:57):
ideas to be like, "Well, I don'twant to say anything right now.
Like, I feel like my ideas aredumb". And that kind of speaks
to how our self talk can becompletely influenced by one or
two, just negative perspectivesthat people have about us. So
yeah, anytime that we're like,"I never do this", it comes from
(33:18):
somebody else, not you. And thenit, it starts to become who, you
know, your self fulfillingprophecy.
Jaye Lin (33:27):
Yeah. And I also want to bring up the other side of
that, right. And when I waslistening to you talk, I noted
that it was "wow, you havereally good ideas". And then the
second piece was "you have ideasand you don't do anything". And,
and I think the key betweenthose is the doing things part,
right? Because I come from thecorporate world, you know, I
(33:49):
worked for Google and Yahoo, andall these other companies
before. And a big piece was, Iwas constantly having these
ideas. And everyone was justlike, I don't have time to spend
more time doing your idea. I'msuper busy, and I just need to
get my work done. And for me,the way that I took that was
they think my ideas are bad. Andit's really something else
(34:12):
entirely, which was, hey, if youwant to go ahead and do this, go
ahead and do it, but you arenot. You're expecting other
people to execute on your ideas,and that's not okay. You need
to, you need to pull your weightaround here. And when I figured
that out, where it's just like,okay, everyone will be on board
(34:32):
with me if I do it. If theydon't need to do a lot of extra
work in order for my ideas to goforward, it's much more likely
that they'll be on board withme. And that's exactly what
happened. Like I did thelogistical work and I did all
the other stuff that kind of,you know, kind of sucks. But
(34:52):
it's part of the optimization tokind of be like, "Hey, how do I
convince them that this is agood idea".
Liz Welshman (34:59):
Totally, totally.
And nobody's ever gonna careabout your idea as much as you
do, right? Like nobody. Andthat's, that's why collaboration
is so powerful. And it is for metoo, I get so much out of that.
Nobody's ever going to want toexecute and see this happen as
much as I'm going to want to sayit happen.
Jaye Lin (35:24):
Yeah, but that's just another example of how it's a
distortion. Our reaction tosomething is a distortion in
that that isn't what they wereeven saying to us. But what we
took away from a lot of it wasthey're not into my ideas, or
they think my ideas are notgood, or they don't think that I
(35:47):
can follow through on stuff. Andthat's actually not what they're
trying to say, at all. Most ofthe time, I would say, it's,
it's really something else thatis less... shitty? Yeah,less
shitty. That's the best wordthat I can think of.
Liz Welshman (36:07):
Yeah, it's more like, I just don't have time for
that. Don't put more stuff on myplate. Go, yeah, cool. Go do go
do it yourself.
Jaye Lin (36:15):
Are there any other ways that you think you can ease
the overwhelm of planning andexecuting?
Ron Capalbo (36:21):
Yeah, I think when it comes to over optimizing and
over planning, there's so manydifferent reasons that we do it.
And so I really think step oneis figuring out what the reason
is that it's happening. And itcan be different for the same
person for different situations,like I think I was talking about
before, it could be just fear ofnot being good enough, right? It
(36:45):
could be that you don't knowwhat to do next. It can be the
uncertainty of. It could be yournegative self talk, you know,
having a fixed mindset of, Inever finished things, I'm not
going to do this. It could bethe overwhelm of us being
conceptual, top down thinkers,that we are kind of aware of
(37:08):
everything that's going to gointo what we have to do. And so
all of those things requiredifferent ways to handle that,
you know, there's differentstrategies to fix all of those
situations. And so, the first iskind of sitting down and seeing,
I like calling it like theinvisible monster, it's like,
throw a sheet on top of thisinvisible monster and see what
(37:29):
it looks like and the best wayto defeat it, right? You know, I
love the the movie term, "thejaws effect", when they say the
reason that Jaws was so scary isbecause they didn't see the
monster until the end of thefilm. And so often, we don't see
what the monster is that we'refacing. And so being able to
pinpoint what it is specificallythat we're dealing with, is
(37:53):
always going to be step one, andfrom there being like, oh, okay,
I'm overwhelmed with everythingthat's going to have to... and
from there, I can figure outwhat steps I need to take. Or I
don't know what to do. Thatmight be where you bring a
friend up, and you you asksomeone's opinion, or writing
out a list of ideas of what todo next. But it's, there's
there's different reasons forthe optimization trap each time.
(38:14):
And so figuring out what it isyou're up against, I think is,
is the key.
Jaye Lin (38:20):
What deliberate thoughts or actions can we take
to make optimization a slingshotinstead of a trap?
Liz Welshman (38:25):
I think the most important thing for clients and
for myself is a mix of selfawareness with self compassion.
So knowing what your strengthsand weaknesses are. Knowing what
gets you going. If you aresomeone who is really needing to
(38:45):
ride the wave of that initialdopamine surge that gets you
going, use it. Don't try andmake it perfect. Just go for it.
If that's what does it for you,do it. I also, I love your idea
of, if you know that you'resomeone who spends ages in that
beginning bit of planning, letyourself sit in it. Let yourself
(39:08):
enjoy it and roll around in theshit of it for a set number of
days, but then, okay, I have toget started. I think also, it's
really common for people withADHD to be stuck in this magical
thinking. And we really believethat there'll be some point in
(39:28):
the future where doing the thingwon't feel shitty. Doing the
boring stuff to get us at thisamazing endpoint won't feel like
hard work. Accepting at theoutset, okay, the actual doing
the actual creation is oftengonna feel, yuck, it's gonna
suck, but that we were gonnahave to do it anyway. And it's
(39:51):
in that engagement and in thatdoing that we get the result
that we're hopefully after.
Jaye Lin (39:58):
Yeah, I also like to to include other people, and I
brought this up earlier. Buthaving a place where I'm, I'm
checking for feedback, right?
If, if what I'm wanting is otherpeople excited about this
project with me, and that is theoutcome that I would like, "oh,
when people will be excitedabout my podcast". If I'm just
(40:18):
like, "Yeah, I'm starting apodcast!" And everyone else is
like, "Oh, why?" Then I'd belike, "Hmmm, I don't know if
this is something that I want tokeep going on". Right? But
usually, the other thinghappens, where I'm just like,
"yeah, Ron, Liz, I think I'mgonna go forward with my
podcast. I was wondering ifyou'd be my guests for the first
episode". And for you to belike, "yeah, fuck yeah! We're
(40:42):
stoked!" And that just reallyreinvigorated everything for me.
And so having moments where it'sjust like, "Yeah, I'm working on
my podcast, I finished editingmy initial like, Intro today",
or "I finished my logo. I didall this stuff" and having
everyone be like, "yeah, yeah,yeah!" That really just pushed
(41:02):
me forward. And even if I was inthe optimization part, I would
be so eager to show everyonewhat the result is that it will
push me forward, instead of mejust saying, like, "oh, well, it
has to be better. It has to bebetter". It's like, No, I'm
showing people what I have now.
And they're like, "this isgreat. This is great". When I
(41:25):
showed you my logo, and you'rejust like, "Oh, I love it". That
was really the point in timewhere I'm just like, "I'm not
going to touch it anymore. Thisis it. I'm going to upload it.
It's gonna go". Right? So whatwill give us that feeling of
like, "Hey, this is good. I'mgonna move on"? And a lot of it
is the feedback. Like if I'malready getting the excitement
(41:45):
from everyone, and I feel goodabout it what reasons do I have
to mess around with it more?
Right? let's let's move on. If Ididn't show anyone my logo, I'd
be like, "well, you know, couldbe better. I don't know. I don't
know. I don't know". And Ireally wouldn't know. Because
when I showed you my initiallogo, and you're just like,
"Yeah, you know, I kind of likethis idea. But this idea" and
then I played around with itmore. I was just like, "oh, this
(42:06):
is the one", right? But if Ididn't show you I would have
just been spinning! I would havemade, like a million logos! I
would have just kept goingforever and ever.
Where can our listeners go ifthey want to connect or learn
more about you?
Ron Capalbo (42:23):
You can follow me on Instagram and Tiktok. On
Instagram, I'm @adhd_ron, onTiktok, @adhdcoachron or you can
just go to my website,adhdcoachron.com. Right there,
you can sign up for a freeconsultation, check out my group
classes, my individual coaching,and then also, there's a huge
(42:45):
breakdown of my origin story, mywhole ADHD journey, and all
about me.
Liz Welshman (42:52):
You can find me on my website, which is
narcissistically namedlizwelshman.com. My Instagram is
@bouncy_ADHD. So bouncy,B-O-U-N-C-Y underscore ADHD.
Jaye Lin (43:13):
You've made it to the end of our very first episode.
To recap, it can be easy to gettrapped in the optimization
phase of any project or venturebecause our ADHD can make
optimizing feel a whole lotbetter than getting started. If
you find yourself in theoptimization trap, Liz, Ron, and
I have a few suggestions. Pauseto figure out what factors are
(43:36):
keeping us in the optimizationtrap, a place where ADHD
coaching can help Bringing otherhumans into the process for a
boost of dopamine to startproducing results. Keeping the
growth perspective in mind whenwe start to doubt our abilities
to fulfill our lofty goals.
Determine what amount of time isacceptable for optimizing, so we
can get our creative juicesflowing and make sure we feel
(43:58):
good about it. And keep in mindthat once we're in the muck of
things, we can sometimes have abetter idea of what works and
what doesn't. So save some ofthat optimizing for when we have
better clarity of the parametersand limitations.
If you found this episodeenjoyable or informative, please
(44:18):
tell your friends and familymembers with ADHD, and/or give
us a review wherever you getyour podcasts. If you want to
read transcripts or show notes,find out more about me, Jaye
Lin, or give suggestions onfuture episodes. Please go to
our website, npadhd.com. That'sthe acronym for now presenting
ADHD, npadhd.com. Or you canfollow us on Instagram @npadhd.
(44:47):
Thank you for listening, and wehope to see you again soon.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.