Balancing Law and Ministry: Dr. Dawson's Insights

What does it take to transition from a successful legal career to leading a thriving church community? Join us as we sit down with the incredibly inspiring Dr. Sonja Dawson, pastor of New Mount Calvary Baptist Church in Los Angeles. Dr. Dawson shares her compelling journey from her roots in Compton, California, through her impactful work as an attorney, and finally to her profound calling to ministry. This episode uncovers her family's courageous move to California during the Watts riots and their unwavering commitment to founding a church amidst turmoil. 

We delve into Dr. Dawson's personal and professional life, exploring the intricate balance between her demanding legal career and her calling to preach. She takes us through the poignant moments of delivering her first sermon, leading the women's ministry, and eventually stepping into the role of executive pastor following her father's illness. Dr. Dawson candidly discusses the emotional and practical hurdles she faced, shedding light on the complexities of being a woman in ministry and the invaluable role of mentorship in her journey.

Throughout our conversation, Dr. Dawson provides deep insights into church leadership, the significance of prayer, and fostering a strong sense of community through discipleship and Sunday school programs. She shares the unique pressures of being a bi-vocational pastor and the importance of preparing for future leadership. Get ready to be inspired by her story of resilience, faith, and dedication to serving her community. Tune in for a heartfelt episode filled with wisdom, personal reflections, and a touch of humor.

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Greetings.
Thank you so much for tuning into the Nuance Conversation
Podcast.
My name is George Hurt.
I am the creator, curator andhost of this podcast, a space
where we have created wherepeople can have a conversation
surrounding politics, religion,pop culture and social norms,

(00:22):
with one caveat that isintelligent, that is nuanced,
honest, empathetic, activelistening and to be able to dive
into various topics.
Today, we try to have peoplehere that meet that criteria,
and we've done it.
Today, we have the one and onlywe have the one and only.

(00:44):
I am describing the work thatshe is doing, and you'll learn
more about that as a pastor, asour leading Baptist church in
Los Angeles, and you'll find outwhy I say that in a second.
Not just that, but formerlytrained in the area of law and,
as you know, being a woman inministry and pastoring.
That journey had its slopes,for various and obvious reasons

(01:08):
as well, and we want to dig intoall that Before we do so here
at the Nuance ConversationPodcast, we always swear our
guests in at the beginning, sowe're going to swear you in now
that you will be honest and openand intelligent.
Okay, this is where I raise myhand.
Yeah, this is where you raiseyour hand.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
This is a lawyer here because she understands these
new ones.
This is bringing my corporateexperience back.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yes, all right.
So, yeah, you're soaring in.
That's good, that's good,that's good.
Thank you for doing that withus.
No, problem.
Thank you for coming.
How are?

Speaker 3 (01:38):
you doing today.
I am excited about being here.
I was surprised you hadmentioned about you wanted me to
come on.
I was excited to get theinvitation.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Absolutely, absolutely.
We try not to mention stuff andnot follow up with it if it's
in our control, but certainlywe're excited to have you here A
long overdue conversation andinteraction in general, but to
do it on this platform I'mexcited about that.
Tell us a little bit about yourupbringing just family life and
the early years of Dr SoniaDawson.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Well, let's see.
Born and raised in Compton,california, and I'm a PK my
whole life my parents foundedthe New Mount Calvary Baptist
Church of Los Angeles,california.
We were founded during theWatts riots.
So that gives you some timeline.
It was in the early 1960s and Igrew up at my church.

(02:35):
As far as outside of church, Idid take the path of becoming an
attorney.
That was my desire.
I actually wanted to be a judge.
That was always my ultimatecareer goal, but I served as an
attorney for 20 years for thecity attorney's office for the

(02:55):
city of Los Angeles.
I went to school at UC Irvine,so I'm an anteater.
And then I went to USC fight on.
I have a master's in publicadministration from there, which
I used in my first career whichwas human resources management.
OK so I did that for 12 yearsfor the city of Los Angeles

(03:15):
while going to law school atnight, finished law school,
stayed with the city and becamea prosecutor in the city
attorney's office and I did thatfor 20 years and then I was
able to leave and retire so thatI could do ministry full time.
I started preaching 20 yearsago.
Last year it's been 20 yearsand pastoring for 13 years, so

(03:40):
it's been a ride.
It's been busy, but it's beenfulfilling.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Wow, what an efficient recap of your life.
I mean, that was amazing.
I was like you got everythingin there.
So we got to go all the wayback and take the slow road here
.
Let's start with Compton Cityof Compton.
I'm from Detroit, so there's aperception that comes with
Compton as it relates to NWA rapmusic.

(04:04):
That comes with Compton as itrelates to NWA rap music, but
also there was a pre-Comptonthat we know now is being
gentrified as we speak as well.
What was Compton like for yougrowing up?
What was the demographics like?
What was the socioeconomicstatus like?
What was just the socialrealities of?

Speaker 3 (04:24):
Compton as you go.
So we're talking about the 70sand the 80s.
For me it was middle class.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
Middle class, that's what I thought.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
Two parent, you know for the most part two parent
homes.
We walked to school.
I know nobody can believe thatpeople actually open their door
and just let their children out,yeah, and then you walked home.

(04:56):
You know um.
Parents worked um.
So for me growing up in Compton, uh, during that time it of
course you had some you knowissues, but it was not it's not
like it was played out in themiddle class family for the most
part adjacent city to losangeles, southern adjacent, yes,
yeah, um family life.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
You say your parents, mom and dad, are they working?
When does ministry comesinvolved with them?
And what led to I know you saidit happened during the watts
riot yes, what sparked startingthe church where you now serve
as pastor?

Speaker 3 (05:27):
So my parents are originally from North Carolina
and they came here, they marriedhere and they were working both
for the city of Los.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Angeles.
They both was from NorthCarolina.
Did they move to LA together?

Speaker 3 (05:41):
They did.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
But they got married in LA after moving here.

Speaker 3 (05:44):
They got married actually in Arizona.
Okay, on the way here, on theway here, oh wow.
Yes, was that planned?
Yes, really.
My dad got out of the serviceand he wanted to get married and
move to California.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
They were in their teens.
And what branch was he in?

Speaker 3 (06:00):
He was in the navy okay, I was in the navy too, and
so my mom said she would go,but they had to get married, of
course okay and so they gotmarried on the way here wow,
yeah, they planned to stop inarizona.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, get married and when they come here they just
get a job.
They, yeah, they were able toget jobs.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
You know we're talking the 50s right okay so
they were able to get jobs.
They were able to get anapartment.
People helped one another rightyou know so they were able to
get jobs.
They were able to get anapartment.
People helped one another,Right, you know.
So they were young marriedcouple.
People helped them to getestablished.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
Siblings, are you the only child?

Speaker 3 (06:32):
I have a sister.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
A sister.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
It's two of us.
I have an older sister, Sherry,and she still works with me in
the ministry.
She's a retired schoolprincipal.
Oh, wow.
So as an educator, she's beenextremely helpful in the work
that she does.
So then my parents they werejust here living life and wanted
to get back in church, and soactually one of my mother's I

(06:55):
think it was my mother'scoworker invited them to the
Holy Chapel Baptist Church.
At the first they didn't have acar.
They were young.
First time that this co-workercame to pick them up they were
sleeping in because they hadpartied the night before, and so
they missed it.
So this is a good lesson onevangelism, yeah.
So the co-worker came back thenext sunday and picked them up
again wow and uh, you know theywere reconnected with the church

(07:20):
and with god because they grewup in church.
You know, south they startedserving in their local church
and my dad got the call and mymom didn't want to go.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
She didn't want to go where.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
She wasn't really ready for the pastoring thing.
My grandfather was a pastor.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
So she thought she got far away from that, her dad.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
She didn't see that one coming.
She was fine with him preaching.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
She was fine with him preaching.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
She was fine with him preaching.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
He was preaching to the social minister of the Holy
Chapel and the Lord led him tostart his own ministry.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yes to organize.

Speaker 1 (07:54):
What sparked the organization?

Speaker 3 (07:57):
He just said he felt the call of the Lord to organize
.
My father, the late Reverend DrLonnie Dawson, was an.
He had crazy faith.
I've never seen anything likeit.
He was a man of faith.
He would step out on what Godsaid and that was it.
And so we organized in 1962 outof the Holy Chapel Baptist

(08:19):
Church and then we became anofficial church in 1963.
And they started as missionchurches back then.
So church started in our home.
Explain what that means Amission church.
Kind of like what we would thinkof a Bible study now.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Okay, as a church plant.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
As a church plant.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
As a church plant in the home.
In our home.
They were there for about sixto seven months and they were
able to raise enough money toget a building.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, so Holy Chapel, they're still under their
jurisdiction.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
No, it's more like a sister church.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Sister church okay, but per the pastor's approval
yes, and so they started intheir home.
It expands, they get their ownbuilding Right.
Where are you at in life atthis point?

Speaker 3 (09:01):
I'm not here yet.
Oh, okay.
My sister's here.
I love telling that part, butI'm all.
I'm almost here.
I wish I could say it was along time, but I'm on the way.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (09:12):
I'm on the way.
Yes, I was born and raised inthe church.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Okay.
So when you come along growingup in the church now your dad is
the pastor.
He's the founding pastor.
What's that like for you?
Are you loving this experience?
Are you like I can't wait tillI get grown and I'm never doing
this again?
How was that for you?

Speaker 3 (09:32):
It depends on what day.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
Most of the time I enjoy working in the church and
serving in the church.
My father was not one to forceus to go to things, and I think
that was helpful.
Really.
Um, I mean, it wasn't that you,couldn't you just stay at home?
I don't want to make it soundlike that but it wasn't.
It was not a compulsion.
He wanted us to want to doRight, so you go into church but

(09:59):
what?
Do you want to do Got?

Speaker 1 (10:01):
you that?

Speaker 3 (10:01):
kind of thing you're going to church, but what do you
want to do?

Speaker 1 (10:04):
got you going that kind of thing you are going to
church, how you did, howinvolved you are, how connected
you are.
So what did you get connectedwith first?

Speaker 3 (10:12):
oh gosh, choirs, choir little kitty choir
everybody's first step usher,yeah, all the pk stuff you know
mission are you sellingacademically in high school and
junior high?

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Is that always something you excelled at?

Speaker 3 (10:28):
I did pretty well in school.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
That's a humble brag, ladies and gentlemen.
And so you go off to college.

Speaker 3 (10:39):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Immediately and as you see, irvine, yes, how was
that experience that you see?

Speaker 3 (10:44):
It was a culture shock.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Really.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, all I knew was Compton, All I knew was South LA
, and now I'm behind.
You know, I'm in Orange County,or what we would call behind
the Orange Curtain.
So it wasn't a bad thing, butit was just a very different
thing.
Okay.
I'm glad that I had thatexperience of going to UC Irvine
.
It's an amazing school, but itwas an adjustment, being in a

(11:07):
predominantly white institution,so yeah, and you're studying I
studied psychology, psychologyat that point.
What did you do after?

Speaker 1 (11:17):
graduating from there .

Speaker 3 (11:19):
I went to work for the city city of Los Angeles,
where my mother had worked andwhere she retired from, and she
helped me to get in.
A little nepotism going onthere.
You know you got to take yourtest.
That's the good thing about thecity.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
You got to take your test.
You got to take your test.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
I took my test, I got my name on the list Then after
that, you know, maybe she helpedme out a little bit.
I don't know.
Now, what did you management?
Where is church in all of this?
Church is still going on.
I'm maybe working with theyoung adult ministry at this
point you know.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Leader of the young adults, you feel like any call a
minister at this point um offyour radar.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
I knew from the time I was a teenager that the lord
had called me to ministry howdid you know that I?
Just I've had a feeling of theholy spirit I had.
I heard the voice of the lordin the way that I understood him
at that time, and so I feltthat I was called to do
something significant in thechurch wow, did you tell your

(12:17):
dad?
No, because I did not.
Um, I was.
I don't believe I had the toolsat that time to articulate what
that was.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Oh, I see what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
But I just knew that there was something I'm going to
do here that was going to besignificant.
I'm going to be a leader ofsome kind and so, yeah, I was a
teenager, so by young adults Iwas operating in that I was just
leading, just excelling inacademics getting this big money
from the city working in thechurch I did pretty well.

(12:48):
Started really low Ladies andgentlemen.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
And so you're working in the church.
You know, since you're a teen,that God is calling you to do
something significant in thechurch.
You have not put a framework ofwhat that means in totality, of
what that means in totalitywhen.
At what point does the pressurefrom the ministry and the call

(13:12):
of ministry takes place?

Speaker 3 (13:14):
And as a fellow pastor, though that's the best
way to put it the pressure yeah.
When you can run no longer.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
And you're staying up at night and you're wondering
and you're like is this.
God.
Is it not God and all that kindof stuff?
So I want to say the pressurestarted probably in my early 30s
.
I'm still working at the church, still working on a regular job
.
I'm in school now.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
At USC.
I finished that I'm in lawschool now.
Oh, so you finished at publicadministration pretty fast and
now you're still working.
You're selling.
You're a GS employee.
No, you're for the city.
I'm for the city and then, well, let's go to law school.
What was the decision for lawschool?
What was the passion that drewyou there?

Speaker 3 (14:06):
It was just I always wanted to be a judge, as I
mentioned Right.
So you got to be a lawyer first, and so I was in law school and
I felt like that was somethingI really wanted to do, and the
Lord opened the door.
I was able to do that, but Istill knew in the back of my
mind that I was going to dosignificant things, as I put it,
in ministry.
But now in the 30s, it'sstarting to become more like

(14:29):
maybe you're going to be apreacher.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Late 20s, you go to law school, mm-hmm.
And that's USC as well.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
No, Southwestern.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
Southwestern, Okay.
Southwestern Law Okay, yep.
And once you graduate there,you just take on another role
with the city.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yes, and graduate there.
You just take on another rolewith the city.
Yes, and what role?

Speaker 1 (14:47):
was that, uh, deputy city attorney for the city, for
the city of la, and that soundssignificant.
Like it does, it does like it'sjust it's the entry-level title
, that's all, that's all it is,trust me.
Anybody who watches this willtell you, though, that's the
entry-level title it could beentry level, but there's not
anything that's going across thedesk.
The deputy I can't remember isso powerful.

(15:09):
But so all that was interestingto me.
Usually, when it comes to thecall of ministry, it's usually
these dramatic stories ofsomebody trying to find
themselves and nothing'sconnecting, nothing's really
happening.
But you're excelling, um,academically, professionally,

(15:31):
you're excelling in churchcontext and so, um, when does
the shift happen where it's likeyou're almost cornered, like oh
, or you know god's sayingthat's great, you, you went to
law school, that's great.
You haven't told your dad, yourpastor, yet it's great that you
working for the city, doingyour thing as deputy attorney
for the city.

(15:52):
When does you feel thehourglass is like running out of
time here.
The sand is coming down and yougot to make a decision.
You got to follow God's lead.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
I drug it out, and drug it out, and drug it out.
So I want to say we're in themid-30s, now we're in the
mid-30s, and I don't needanybody doing all this math on
me no, no, but what?

Speaker 2 (16:14):
but, in the mid-30s, yeah, people cut all that out,
yeah, don't do this math, yeah,but I want to say in the mid-30s
I got your back.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
You will not do that I guess here at the New Life
Conversation I will say that Igot to a situation where I
really believed the Lord hadcalled me to preach.
And that.
I was no longer able to dothese other things, instead of
acknowledging the call to preach.

(16:42):
Now, if you're asking me thequestion, you know, did the
heavens open up?
And you know all this?
No, I just knew that because ofthe pressure and because I had
done all these other things.
These other things was not whatLike a contentment.
Yeah, these other things was notwhat God really wanted me to do
, and that I was supposed to bepreaching and I was.

(17:06):
It was just at a point wherehad to say okay, god, yes, I
will preach, and that was thatwas that.
That was 20 years ago what wasthat?

Speaker 1 (17:15):
what was those steps to acceptance?

Speaker 3 (17:19):
the acceptance first of all was accepting it myself,
because, as you pointed out, Iwasn't just sitting on a lump
somewhere not doing anythingRight.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
No, that's the point I'm trying to make.
Yeah, it's like you know, lord,leave me alone, I'm doing stuff
.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
And a lot of it was well, I'll do this, yes, but I
don't want to preach.
Yeah, I'll run this ministry,you ministry.
You know I have to handle allthe administration.
I'll do.
You know, you have what we usedto call um people who preach
but didn't preach.
You know, I won't use thatderogatory term, but I'll be a
theme speaker.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
I'll do all these various things, but we are doing
that in local churches andstuff.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yeah, you're doing all that, but I don't want to.
You know, don't call me, don'tgive me that handle, don't give
me that label, I don't want tohave a title, etc.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Etc so just the steps of you accepting your call.
First, you had to yes, Iacknowledged it myself.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
I had to acknowledge it myself, I had to pray about
it and say, okay, lord, and thenask the lord, how should I
proceed?
And so the lord led me to go tomy father and to share with him
the call to preach that I felton my life.
And so, because there was norole model in my context, there

(18:29):
were no women preachers in mychurch.
We didn't fellowship with anywomen pastors.
My assumption was that I wouldnot be able to stay at my church
where I built all this greatministry.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
So let's go back to that.
You are you like, hey dad, Ineed to talk to you, so you're
at home or in the office or athome.
You're at his house.
He came to his house, sat down,and what do you say to him?

Speaker 3 (18:58):
Just what you said.
I need to talk to you and thenI have something I need to share
with you and I'm nervous aboutit because I don't know how
you're going to react.
And as a father, I think thatthat kicked in when he heard me
say I was nervous.
So his, it was more of afatherly response, I think, than
a pastor.

(19:18):
You know, I think it waspastoral too, but I saw the
expression on his face changewhen I said I was nervous.
It was like well, whatever it is, you know, just tell me
whatever it is, and I sharedwith him.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
What was that expression to you?

Speaker 3 (19:30):
Well, which expression.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
The expression that came on his face what?
What did that expression Justconcern Like?

Speaker 3 (19:35):
if you're, you know, is everything okay.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
Kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
That's why I felt like it was more like fatherly
got you yes um, and I was like,no, no, everything is fine.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
I just have a sense that the lord is calling me to
preach.
So he basically said all right,what I want you.
And this is what he did, andI've checked with all his other
associates.
This was his pattern go prayabout it and go pray about.
It could be six months, itcould be a year, just go pray

(20:05):
about it.
And so he sent me off to prayand he said if you still sense
this calling, come back to me ina few months and let me know
how you feel.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
The.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
Lord's still speaking .
So I did that and I came backin a few months and said I still
had that sense.
And then he said OK, now I cameback in a few months and said I
still had that sense.
And then he said okay now I'mgoing to go pray about it, and
so that was another severalmonths.
But I found out later from hiscolleagues that during his time

(20:39):
of prayer he was alsoresearching, talking to pastors
across the country that he hadrelationships with, about women
in ministry, about bringingwomen into your church if you
don't have women in ministry andpulpit ministry, what that
looks like, how they hadnavigated that space and getting

(21:00):
recommendations as far as howto do that.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
So there never been even this thought of having a
woman in ministry before that.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yes, there had.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yes, there had.
In fact, the Lord was alreadyworking in that area in his life
and in conversations with himBecause he again they were from
North Carolina and so a lot ofhis friends and pastor friends
were on the east coast and hewould talk about going to
revivals and conferences andthings like that and he's like I

(21:34):
was sitting pulpits with womenall the time on the east coast.
So he found it strange thatwhen he came to the west coast
he was it wasn't open okay andif for him, he felt conflicted
um.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
So the lord has started already working on his,
his heart and so when he finallycomes back, what does he say to
you after his time of prayer?

Speaker 3 (21:55):
that he's gonna move forward, that, um, he doesn't
want me to leave, he's not gonnagive me a letter, because I did
, I asked for my letter youreally oh yeah, oh yeah, I was,
oh yeah, I was bold that makeyou feel I didn't want.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
I didn't want to go, I didn't want to make you feel
for your dad to say yes, let'sgo forward.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
I'm I'm about to walk you through this process it
felt wonderful, scary, butwonderful yeah and I didn't want
and let me say this I did notwant my letter because I wanted
to leave.
I never wanted to leave.
I grew up in that church,that's all I knew.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
You didn't want to cause confusion.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
I did not want to hurt him.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
I didn't want to hurt his reputation, I didn't want
to cause confusion.
He had already built a greatministry.
He's in his 70s Right, so I didnot want whatever the
repercussions would be on him.
I thought it would be easier ifI just go somewhere else and

(22:52):
live out this call what is thoseearly years of ministry like,
um well, what was the firstsermon?

Speaker 1 (23:02):
like the build the day.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
The first sermon.
The first sermon, my firstsermon after I acknowledged my
call to preach, was actually atanother church.
In retrospect it probably I'mglad that I was able to have it

(23:39):
at my church as well.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (23:44):
What that means is that God does everything the way
he wants to do it.
I think that that firstopportunity, which I'm very
grateful for, I'm thankful forthose who are still in
relationship with me, who gaveme that opportunity.
Maybe God used that to breakthe ice.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
So you announced in Mount Calvary New Mount Calvary,
your call.
Everybody starts clapping.

Speaker 3 (24:19):
Well, yeah, they were clapping.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
They were, you know, clapping shot clapping, and so
now, usually you schedule firstsermon after knowledge of the
call, but yours happenedsomewhere else.
Why did it happen somewhereelse?

Speaker 3 (24:34):
Well, it wasn't scheduled immediately because,
again, remember, we're prayingand there are other women Three
in exactly.
I was in a cohort of four, sowe all had to be scheduled
together.
We all came through thetraining class together and we

(24:55):
all preached our sermon.
So that took a little time Inthe interim.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
If you recall, I'm theme speaking right and so I
got an opportunity to preachpost accepting your call
publicly but prior to my trial,sermon at my church mm-hmm prior
to your trial sermon got you,but your trial official trial
official trial at the New MountCalvary Baptist.

(25:21):
Church At the New Mount CalvaryBaptist Church.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
October of 2020, October 2003.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
And how was that?

Speaker 3 (25:29):
Surreal.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
Surreal.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
What's ministry like?
Post that night, that day Wasit a night service.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
Oh yeah, Wednesday night service.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
A lot of people came out from around the city.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
A lot of people came Mm-hmm the city.
Some people came from out oftown or from out of state Family
you know close family members.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
What you preaching on Rev.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
You know, I know Ecclesiastics 3.
It's a time and a season forall things.
That was what I talked about.
What did you call it?

Speaker 1 (26:07):
The time is now.
Get out of my way, y'all.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Time is now Humble, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Real proud of your humility,huh.
And then is it just beinginvolved in ministry at this
point, working.
Being more involved in thechurch.
Do you go on staff eventually?

Speaker 3 (26:32):
eventually, but it was a minute okay yeah, it was a
minute before that part.
Um, as far as any type of paidstaff, it was always volunteer.
So I was leading the women'sministry.
Well, my mother was in chargeof the ministry.
I was the minister to thewomen's ministry.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
So I was over the.
You didn't think you was goingto be over mama now, did you?

Speaker 3 (26:51):
No, not at all, not at all.
I was under her and I was incharge of the congregational
care.
Gotcha.
Visiting the sick.
You know that was what I wasworking on, still working with
the other areas of ministry,working with the associates with
training.
I did a lot of work with myfather with training Gosh.

(27:14):
I started a parachurchorganization around the same
time that I started preachingand that took up a lot of my
time.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
What was that and what was that?

Speaker 3 (27:22):
about.
It's the name of it and itstill exists.
It's called Sisters in.
Ministry and we are anorganization, an
interdenominational fellowshipfor women clergy and those who
support women clergy.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
So I can't join.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah, I just said oh, you don't support women clergy.
Oh, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
I thought you said for women.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
I said for those who I'm trying to start something
and I'm not listening.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
It's okay for women, clergy and those who support
women clergy.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
But, it's not just for clergy.
We also have women in any areasof ministry.
So if you're a.
Praise and worship leader.
If you're a Sunday schoolteacher, any type of women
leading.
Sisters in Ministry is anorganization that we get
together once a quarter.
We have different events, wehave conferences, we do outreach
.
Women leading Got you.

(28:10):
Sisters in Ministry is anorganization that we get
together once a quarter.
We have different events, wehave conferences, we do outreach
, we do training classes.
What else have we done?
Mentoring.
So we do a lot of differentthings, coming together just to
encourage and support women inministry.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
If I remember the catalog right.
So at this point you are stillworking for the city as a lawyer
.
You're just helping out more atthe church.
You're starting the paraministry.
When does how does thepastoring component?

Speaker 3 (28:36):
The pastoring piece.
Yes, so the para ministry,which I didn't, you know, I
didn't know then, actuallyreally helped prepare me for
pastoring.
I didn't you know, I didn't knowthen actually really helped
prepare me for pastoring,because it was basically like
learning you know it's a 501c3,learning all the ins and outs of
that, learning how to deal withpeople and personalities and

(28:58):
organization and all thesevarious things.
So we have that going on, thatorganization, going on working
with that.
The pastoring piece when is thepastoring piece?
When is the pastoring piece?
Now?
That, um, that did have adramatic um experience and I

(29:19):
guess that was because god knewhe was gonna have to say
something to me.
So, um, I can recall serving,being an adjutant, serving my
dad, doing all these variousthings, and my father was
starting to experience differentsicknesses.
He had some health challenges,he had a stroke, he had some
different things to happen.
So I was taking on moreresponsibility administratively,

(29:39):
although not formally on staff.
You know I'm helping him, yeah,although not formally on staff.
You know I'm helping him, yeah,so but at that time and you
know you've been in the churchworld so you know kind of how
when pastors get sick, sometimespeople rise up, things change,
people change, and so my heartwas pricked about what I was

(30:01):
seeing.
And I can remember waking upone morning with just tears
streaming down my face and I waslike I was like it was like I
was saying, yes, lord, I'll helphim.
And for me that was a dramaticexperience and I knew it was the
Lord, the spirit of the Lord,because I kept saying I'm going

(30:23):
to help hold up his arms.
That's all I was saying.
I just woke up saying I'm goingto help hold up his arms.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Dad's getting older.
Because of that, people aredoing things that they would
never did before If he was athis full strength.
And you are able to discernthat and know that, hey, I'm
equipped to step in and help outto make sure this doesn't
happen.
But there was a sense ofreluctancy.

(30:48):
Um, I guess we could trace thatthroughout your story, sure, as
it relates to ministry.
And you have this, this sort ofcoming to Jesus moment one
morning where it is I'm going tostep up.
Now, what does stepping up meanat that point?

Speaker 3 (31:05):
At that point I thought it was I'm just going to
help out more.
You know, after work I'm goingto keep my job, yeah, but I'm
just going to help out more.
And, and you know, if he needsme to preach more and visit the
sick more so he doesn't have totry to, you know, don't do that
in the evenings, I just I wasgoing to do more of what I was

(31:25):
already doing, right being moreavailable you know being more
watchful, that kind of thing,and let me let me say this,
because I never want anybody to,you know, interpret it as
though that that people werebeing horrible in any kind of
way, because a lot of thesefolks are still my members, okay
, so I'm not coming.
I'm not saying that, I'm justsaying anybody that's been

(31:47):
around knows how things andpeople can change absolutely
okay, so, um, nevertheless, Ijust thought I was gonna do more
, just more, and that's what Iwas prepared for to do more and
continue doing what I was doing.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
What actually happened.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
What actually happened?
Yes, so what actually happenedwas, fortunately, my father was
diagnosed with a fatal illness.
With a fatal illness, and whenwe all you know how they called

(32:23):
the family in and we went in tohave the meeting with the
doctors and they didn't havemuch good to say.
Wow.
At that juncture, we met as afamily and talked about, kind of
how we were going to navigatethis space, and so my dad asked

(32:44):
if he could appoint me as hisexecutive pastor while he was in
treatment, and of course, theLord had already pricked my
heart to say yes, you know.
So he made the appointmentbefore the church.
That was the first time we'dever had a female executive
pastor, a pastor of any kind,and, and so while he was

(33:07):
undergoing that treatment, I didmore.
He still, though, did a lot,which I didn't even realize
until I started actuallypastoring that he did more than
just preach on.
Sunday, he was still carrying alot.
I don't even know how he did it, to tell you the truth, he was
still carrying a lot of theday-to-day responsibilities.

(33:28):
And you know what?
He had an amazing staff.
They had been with him for many, many years and I believe they
were picking up a lot andhelping out a lot as well.
It wasn't just me, he had anamazing team your executive
pastor.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (33:44):
it means that I'm um organizing the preaching
schedule.
I'm not doing all the preachingum.
I am overseeing most of theadministration as far as, like
you know, church businessmeetings, getting information
out things like that.
I am um making sure whatever'son his desk that he needs to see
, that I bring it to him andtake it back.

(34:04):
I am meeting the trustees andthe major stakeholders and
attending some of those meetingsand learning about, you know,
the inside workings of thefinances.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
Are you afforded the privilege to breathe the reality
of this at this point?
Are you so involved in work itnever really hits you like I'm
really operating as pastor nowunder the title of executive
pastor, or is the work so busythat you never had that moment
to sort of maybe even still nothave the moment to kind of soak

(34:43):
in the reality of what theimplications of everything
that's taking place?

Speaker 3 (34:49):
I want to say that I did, but I don't know if I did
got you the reason I say that is, even though all of this was
going on with the church, Istill have a sick father.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
So there was not really a lot of time to think
about.
To me, this was all one thingLike.
This was how I was caring.
This was a part of my caregiver.
It's hard to explain it but.
I think I put it all together Igot you.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, I'm following.
Not sure if the audience isyeah, because they're not, as
you know, crafty as I am,there's no father there, oh, but
no, no, no, if I could sort ofput it in a nutshell, you're not
just helping out a pastor in atime of illness, you're helping

(35:41):
out a pastor that's your dad inthis time, and so there's really
not a lot of space to breathe,celebrate for lack of a better
term everything that has takenplace, everything that has taken
place how?
I think it's important now toask the question throughout even
this process and the entirejourney in ministry at this

(36:04):
point, is being a woman being inLos Angeles?
What's the realities, what's,what's the nuance as it relates
to, to that experience?

Speaker 3 (36:16):
Sure, sure, it's hard .
It's sure it's hard, it's hard.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
And it's hard for a long time.
What made?
It hard.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
I can't say lack of opportunity, because I still,
I'm still the daughter of a, youknow, successful.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
Legendary pastor yeah .

Speaker 3 (36:47):
So people are going to invite me to preach, or some
did right.
You don't get thoseopportunities that others would
not get.
Mm-hmm.
So I can't sit here and say, ohknow, no doors were open for me
.
That's not true, um, but opendoors are not always a blessing,
you know don't even say thatone more time.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Somebody in the back?

Speaker 3 (37:11):
yeah, they're not they're not always a blessing,
and the places where you end upmay appear welcoming but not
necessarily be welcoming.
And so when I say it was hard,sometimes it was hard to hold my
peace.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
What were some of the things that occurred?
That was difficult.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
Well, you got to deal with the comments, the
ignorance, the lack of respect.
It just made it challenging.
It made it just stay on yourA-game.
I tell when I mentor throughSisters in Ministry, I tell the

(37:57):
ladies all the time there's ablack tax and then there's a
woman tax and so you got to paythem both.
You know, whatever that may be,or whatever your minority, you
know whatever your demographicis.
So it made it very difficultand challenging at first and
there are still challenges.
We haven't gotten to the pastorin peace yet.
I'm just talking about thepreaching piece.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah, no, no, I want to get into that separately.
Tell me for you personally evenI know you said you felt the
calling as a teen.
Was there ever a componentwhere you felt like women
shouldn't have been in ministry?
And then, if so, what was thetransition from that?

Speaker 3 (38:37):
So my answer to that is no, because I have a justice
bend.
Even in my work that I did as aprosecutor, I ended up creating
a diversion program for firsttime offenders, because I feel
I'm very interested inrestorative justice and equality
.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
What's restorative justice?

Speaker 3 (38:55):
Basically giving people an opportunity to restore
themselves.
If they make make a mistake,that we just don't write them
off.
We give them anotheropportunity.
We let them take classes or welet them make amends to the
victim or do something and notjust throw them away by
incarcerating them forever.
So I say that to say because ofmy justice being I had I always
felt it was fine for women todo whatever we wanted to do.

(39:16):
I felt we were equal.
So I never had to convincemyself that because I was a
woman, I shouldn't preach.
I had to convince myself thatfor everything that I've seen as
a PK and the sacrifices thatyou make, do I want to do this
for the rest of my life?

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Male or female?
Yes, as a preacher period.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
Yes, that's my reluctance.
It's not the female piece.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
When, in this journey , do you, if you ever did that,
idol be?

Speaker 3 (39:50):
it from up close, from a distance as a woman that
you look to Role models?
Yeah, sure, sure.
And my parents connected me tomy first mentor in ministry,
pastor Carol Houston, and she'swell known here in the city of
LA and probably all over.
Pastor Carol Houston of theBethel Unspeakable Joy Church
became my mentor when I wasfirst started preaching.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
What about before that?
Did you ever look to somebodyas hey?

Speaker 3 (40:15):
Oh, I mean we can look on TV.
Got your um your carolyn show,wells your um, uh, jacqueline
mccullough you've got.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
I mean bishop, I want a lot and I, if I don't use
their titles, it's notdisrespect, I'm just talking no,
so I'm just saying what I'mtrying to understand is like for
you to have the restorativejustice being that you always
felt that way.
Was that combined with alsoseeing others?
You know how they say you seesomebody do something that makes
you more, you know, feeling andmotivated to do it yourself, or

(40:48):
to feel like you?
You can do it yourself Maybe.
Yeah, okay, but not consciouslyper se.
So you're, you're back in this.
One quick question before we gothere, as it relates to always
what was your conversations likewith people?
Let's just say incognito in asense, you're not preaching yet,

(41:10):
but did you like, well, ask,you know even your father what
do you feel about women inministry?
Like, were there conversationsbeing had?
Oh, no, no.
So you just had thisinclination, but you never
verbalized it or advocated forit in any way.
Formally, I just knew it.
You just knew it.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
I knew it for me Right and I knew if I went I
wasn't taking any public opinionpolls.
Yeah, you can talk to everybody.
Everybody has a differentopinion about it, what they
think you should do, what youthink you shouldn't do.
It to me it wasn't up fordiscussion.
I knew I felt like god had saidit and he and I was gonna
figure out some kind of way todo it.
And I was gonna have to do itbecause I felt he had called me
to it but just even in general,not even thinking through the

(41:53):
lenses of yourself.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
Did you ever have those conversations in general
growing up or with other people?

Speaker 3 (42:00):
I didn't.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
No, okay, so you're doing more and more
responsibilities as executivepastor.
When does a transition happenfrom executive pastor to full
time or senior pastor?

Speaker 3 (42:16):
so as my father's condition declined and we um
knew that he was going to youknow transition, then the church
put things in place so that hewould be able to um name his
successor as the founding pastor, and so once, once that was put

(42:38):
in place, then they asked me ifI would be willing to serve as
their next pastor.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
That was your dad's recommendation.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
And so they took the recommendation and asked you.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
They took the recommendation and I said I
would, and so then they broughtit to the church and that was
affirmed by the church and thatwas it, and then my dad passed
six weeks after that action.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
What's the time frame before that of all this
happening?

Speaker 3 (43:15):
You mean of his being , of me being executive pastor?

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, him making a recommendation and accepting a
recommendation and voting.
What was that span of time wasso like?

Speaker 3 (43:23):
it happened within the six week period before the
six weeks so he makes thisrecommendation, all that
happened within the six weeks.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
I got you.
Yeah, so now you're again.
You're in this oxymoron whereyou're a moronic face, where
you're again.
You're in this oxymoron, amoronic space, where you can't
really celebrate this newposition because it's at the
pains of your dad.
How are you handling it then?

(43:53):
Are you throwing yourself intowork?
Do you need to take a moment togrieve as well?
And then what would yourecommend to somebody that's in
that similar?
Position oh gosh yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
I'm chuckling now, but yes, I should have taken a
break.
Yes, if I could have had it todo over sure, that's absolutely
what I would recommend forsomebody to do.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
But that's not on you though, like why you know
that's hard to do, but I wasgoing to say why I couldn't have
taken the break.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
And why I still probably wouldn't have taken
that.
If I had it to do over, Iwouldn't have taken that break.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Why is that?

Speaker 3 (44:33):
Because you're transitioning a church.
You're transitioning a church.
You're transitioning a church.
You're transitioning a church.
You're transitioning a grievingchurch who had had only one
pastor for almost 50 years.
So absence was not an option.
And my father explained wetalked about that as he was even
close to his transition he wasvery clear on what the

(44:57):
transition plan should be andthat there would be no void in
leadership.
So, um, I knew that from thetime that he went home to be
with the lord, I would bepreaching every sunday up to the
installation and then afterthat, if I wanted to, you know,
take any breaks, use anyassociates or whatever.
You know that would be as thespirit led, and so that's what I
did why do you think he was soso dogmatic about that?

Speaker 1 (45:27):
stability, stability and you do you, in retrospect,
feel like that was correct.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
I do for our context.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
For your context, yeah, why do you feel that way?

Speaker 3 (45:43):
Because we are still, and we're then, a stable church
.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
I'm asking that because I'm about to take a
sabbatical.
We've talked about this before.
I think there are some commonpractices in church, black
church especially that seeminglyin that situation, if we're
talking about group love,congregation, family,

(46:14):
hypothetically and I'm sayingthis not trying to dive into the
total context and trying to berespectful to your dad's wishes,
and even what you're saying now, it does still feel as if
somebody should have said Mayhave been our pastor for XOXO.

(46:37):
That's been her dad her entirelife.
We should do something to makesure that this is a healthy
transition process and ifanybody can't understand that be
a leader or member of thechurch is probably best that you

(46:57):
move on anyway, and I knowthat's that's not no.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
And I can respond to that because they did, Let me.
Let me say that.
They did offer that to you theydid the leaders, the leader of
the deacon board and leader ofthe trustee ministry.
Both of those gentlemen offeredme to take a break.
The church offered me and hasoffered me so many times.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
So it's your fault, it's my fault, okay.

Speaker 3 (47:24):
Because I, because of my training, because of how you
know, no, I would.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
I think I would have been in the same boat, and I
think, I'm, and I want to beclear I'm not saying this from
the mountaintop of how great I.
I'm just as guilty and I thinkwe in general are just as guilty
.
And I don't even think guiltyis a good word there, because
it's not a malicious aspect toit in my mind.

(47:50):
It's just something that is aninternal training and an
external training that needs tohappen into these things For the
overall.
I mean, we preach it.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
It's the Lord's church Right, which is why I'm
going to find out more about theone you're taking, so I can
take it next year.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
I'm ready now.
I'm 13 years in.
I'm out.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
I'm gone.
I'm gone.
I told them at my anniversaryin January.
I'm gone.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
I'm out, I'm gone.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
I'm gone.
I told him at my anniversary inJanuary I'm gone.
I'm going to conferences thisyear.
I'm getting out the house.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yes, yes, yes.
I want that for you, I wantthat for all of us, I want that
for our people in general,across the board, and I think a
lot of times this happens andyou can tell me if I'm wrong and
correct me if I'm wrong withwomen.
A lot in general can tell me ifI'm wrong and correct me if I'm
wrong with women a lot ingeneral, especially black women.
Is this, this hero, complex?

(48:43):
Is I gotta take it on sure?
Uh, I gotta get it done.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
Um, and there's there's a reason for it.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
I gotta prove the naysayers wrong right, right and
the odds were against you whenthe odds are against you got you
, and so that probably hassomething to do with you as well
.
With that saying no, this isthe jump in and do things like
that in nature.
Sure, phenomenal job you'vedone as a pastor over 13 years

(49:11):
To God be the glory Absolutely,but also to give you be the
glory as well.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
I like that.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
We give all the glory to God, but we do supplement
that.
Yeah, there was some work as itrelates to being disciplined,
being focused, but, mostimportantly, that I want to
highlight and compliment you foris perseverance through
everything that you would haveto deal with throughout the
journey being a woman beingfollowing your dad, caring for

(49:48):
your dad through this time.
Tell us about the journey.
I want to hear the highlights,though I want to hear just tell
us how things begin to flourishunder your leadership.

Speaker 3 (50:05):
So New Mount Calvary was ready to rally when I took
over.
Our church was ready for thefuture.
While we still, of of course,are a legacy church, we do our
traditions, we have ourtraditions, we honor our
traditions, but they were in aposition where they were open to

(50:27):
new leadership my leadership inparticular, I should say not
just any new leadership.
they were open to my leadershipbecause I was recommended, they
knew me right and they werewilling to follow what I asked
them to do, which was to be apraying church.
So I started really focusing onthe importance of prayer and

(50:49):
holding the.
During the pandemic we held ourprayer meetings weekly, but now
we hold them twice a month.
So that became a big part ofour ministry and from the prayer
you know we were always aSunday school church.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
When was this prayer taking place?
What was the turnout like?

Speaker 3 (51:04):
Well, first Mondays, every first Monday, we were
praying.
We've had up to 200 people inprayer before the pandemic.
It's at 7 o'clock at night 7o'clock at night.
Every first Monday.
So we are rebuilding, likeeverybody else, and our goal now
every first Monday.
So we are rebuilding likeeverybody else.
And um, I go now every monthfirst Mondays.
I have a hundred people inprayer and so we're almost there
and then we'll move the goal upto one 50 and then, you know,

(51:25):
ultimately up to you know,continue to go going up.
But the prayer meeting has beena really big thing and um, not
just the Monday night prayer, wealso have prayer every day on a
conference call.
Um, in the morning I do apastor's prayer time on Facebook
and YouTube once a month.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
What is that?

Speaker 3 (51:42):
That's just where, literally, the members come on
in the chat and they give metheir prayer requests.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
And you pray for them .

Speaker 3 (51:49):
And I pray for them in real time.
I also have whatever teachingor whatever theme is for the
night.
I was usually focused aroundprayer, but they enjoy that
Hearing, you know know tellingme what it is that they want to
pray about, and then they thenother people start engaging in
the chat and all of that.
That's online.
The uh in person is on firstmondays.

(52:09):
That's always in person andthat's not streamed when.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
I don't stream when we're in person what does the uh
, what time does your prayer onYouTube and Facebook happen?

Speaker 3 (52:19):
Well, it's at 6.30 now.
It was at 7, but it's at 6.30.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
On what day?

Speaker 3 (52:23):
First and third Mondays.
No not first and third, thirdMondays.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Third Mondays First Mondays, you'll meet in person.
First Mondays, I'll meet inperson.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
This recently changed , but that's why I got to
remember.
Yeah yeah, yeah.
So first Mondays in person.
Third, Mondays online.
And then I recently started amorning devotional that I do on
Tuesdays at 9 am and that'scalled Morning Inspiration.
It depends on what we'retalking about.
So right now we're on the roadto Pentecost, so I'm teaching on

(52:52):
all the post-resurrectionexperiences and giving like a
word of encouragement for theday.
So I do that every week.
So, anyway, I think for um toanswer your question, what has
helped the church?
I start with prayer, um, andthe commitment to discipleship.
Now, as you know and we'vetalked about before, uh, my
father's legacy is Sunday school.

(53:13):
He built huge Sunday schooldepartment.
We still have um a very strongSunday school department.
We still have a very strongSunday school department.
We're still averaging over 200people in Sunday school, which
is a lot of people in Sundayschool.
So we're still working withthat, trying to continue to help
it to grow.
One of the challenges that wehave post-pandemic is getting

(53:34):
people back in the building,Because now they're used to
studying at home with their cupof coffee, you know, and so
we've had to keep some hybridoptions for sunday school just
because of the age of thecongregation.
But that's an area where, whereyou know where we're, where we
are um, where we're seeing somegrowth wow.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
So commitment to prayer and focusing on that
during those 13 years have causethat growth and commitment to
sunday school.
Before the pandemic, yoursunday school numbers were
closer to more like 300 300.
What's the construct of sundayschool?

Speaker 3 (54:09):
you mean, how is it organized by ages?

Speaker 1 (54:12):
yeah, we're by ages okay, so give me example how
many classes oh?

Speaker 3 (54:17):
um, oh, I hope my Sunday school people are not
watching.
Oh no, we'll do that.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
So, but you have an adult.
I can tell you.
I can tell you, I think I gotit.
Yeah, no, I think I got it.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
I know it's about 20 classes.
It may be more, so don't killme.
Sunday school directors Maybemore than 20, but we have the
youth Junior high, high school.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
Yeah, the middle schoolers.
Your adult classes.
Are they demographic-based orare they just first-come,
first-served?
Who signs up?

Speaker 3 (54:47):
It's a little bit of both.
They started out as age-based,but now we've opened them up.
So if you have a teacher thatyou want to be with a certain
group of people, that you likeyou don't have to go to the
other class.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
You can be in the class that you like.
What?
How do?

Speaker 3 (55:04):
you choose curriculum .
We use davis c cook.
So how do I choose it?
I choose it um because I doprefer an expository curriculum
and um I like the davis c cookcurriculum.
So we've been using that for acouple of years.
Initially we use life way.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
We use a lot of topical um sources, but I I like
the david c cook curriculum howdo you get people to go to
sunday school, those that arewatching and say, hey, I would
love that.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
Uh the the sunday school.
People get people to go tosunday school.
The members and it is importantthat the pastor talks about it
a lot.
So I I try to talk about Sundayschool.
Often I try to preach from theSunday school lesson from time
to time, so that when you comein this past Sunday, for example
, it just lined up that way thatmy sermon was on the same text

(55:50):
and so I was able to partner,you know kind of type of oh, you
know your Sunday school teacher, they talked about it this way
and I see it from this angle andyou know they see the
connection.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
So it's not a separate thing, but the members
are excited about it and theyinvite their friends, and that's
how we've seen growth.
What about the church?
Uh, what?
How do you?
How did you sustain?
What kind of growth did you seejust in church in general,
let's say, sunday morningworship?

Speaker 3 (56:15):
over 13 years.
Well, you know the honeymoonperiod when I first started
pastoring, it was just crowded.
Yeah, it was just crowded, itwas just crowded.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
I mean services to services yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
And the first I want to say, in the first two or
three years we took in 600 newmembers.
Well but you know the back door.
So we've had to work to try toretain and find, and then the
pandemic took care of that.
So now we are seeing growthagain.
We have one service at 1030.

(56:47):
That service is pretty muchfull.
So we have two services onfirst Sunday.
I do the 730 service and the1030 service.
And so.
I know that we will have to goahead and pop back to another
early service, and I know myearly service people are excited
to hear that, so that'sprobably coming down the pike

(57:08):
real soon.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
Let's talk about the back door.
You mentioned that we take inthese members.
People show up and they areinterested.
We take in these members,people show up and they are
interested.
Yes, what do you think?

Speaker 3 (57:27):
is responsible for the failure and assimilation?
That's a very good question andI have been trying to figure it
out myself for a long time.
I can tell you the things thathave worked when we have been
successful.
So what has worked when we havebeen successful is pastoral
involvement.
You know, with everything thatwe have to do as pastors, it's

(57:48):
hard to also have to teach thenew member class, but that's
successful.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
So you're saying when you say pastoral, you're saying
you teach the new member class,that's successful.
You may have to edit that out.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
I'm just saying it's hard, it's another job, I don't
do it all the time, but we talkabout best practices.
That's been a best practice.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
How long is your new member class?

Speaker 3 (58:17):
It's six sessions, six sessions, so I've done a
couple of different ways Imember class it's six sessions
six sessions.
So I've done a couple differentways.
I've done in six weeks and thenI did like a super saturday and
did an accelerated.
I had breakfast and then justlike four hours, you know you're
done gotcha um, yeah, I havefound that when the pastor
teaches is very good at gettingconnection, getting to know the

(58:42):
members, and they feel like theyknow you and they stay and get
involved.
That's one of the bestpractices Fair enough.
Another best practice is I don'talways do it, but another best
practice is when you do have agroup that graduates that

(59:03):
finishes new members is notletting them out into the
general population, but nowforming a cohort with them class
and either doing additionalteaching with them or maybe
doctrinal.
You know things.
Now let's talk about what itmeans.
You know the plan of salvation,or let's talk about whatever

(59:26):
you want to talk about nextdeveloping a spiritual life,
finding your spiritual gifts,whatever, but keeping them
together or what we have doneit's.
Another practice with that iswhen you have a group that's
finished with new members class,forming a Sunday school class
of those persons.
Those persons because they,even though it's only six weeks
or seven weeks or whatever, theyhave formed community and now

(59:46):
they're in a new church and theyjust want to be just out there
and so that you know they end upgoing out the back door so you
don't fear that that communitywill come against the new
community and be like, hey, weclass Right, people are people.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Yeah, I got you, yeah , some of the challenges over
these last 13 years as pastor.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
Let me look at it from a spiritual place first.
Yeah, spiritual place is the,the inner strength.
The inner strength to carry theweight of the work requires.

(01:00:36):
You know, and I didn't know,people would say this and I
didn't.
I don't know if I understood itas much as I do now you cannot
preach from an empty cup, youcan't minister out of emptiness.
So it's making sure that I havesome type of spiritual life.

(01:00:56):
That's a that's you know,separate from just.
You know, preparing the bible,studies and all these various
things is keeping myself atleast half full or almost full
so that I can do the ministry.
Full or almost full so that Ican do the ministry.
That's been a challenge becauseof the time constraints Right.
So making that a priority everyday is very important to being

(01:01:21):
able to to pastor from aspiritual perspective, being
bivocational I was bivocationalfor 10 years- let's go back to
the first one before we gothrough that, because I think,
you just told me things thatwere so important.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
One of the challenges was drawing on empty.

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
And, at times, being at places where you're kind of I
got to do it because I'm thepastor Right, but I'm not really
spiritually at my apex.
Yep, thank you for sharing that, first and foremost.
If you're somebody who'swatching that's experiencing
that as well, what would you sayto them on how to navigate

(01:02:06):
through that?

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
I think it's finding those things that ignited your
spiritual passion and going backto those.
You know, for me, I love Biblestudy.
Everybody will tell you thatthey're like oh, pastor, we know
you'd rather teach Bible study.
I would rather teach a room of10 people Bible study you know,
that's what I just love to do.
That's my passion, more so thanbeing on a big stage somewhere.

(01:02:31):
You know, if you put me in acircle I'm happy, right.
So, even though I don't have.
I didn't have a lot of timebecause, you know, we did
construction and I'm still havemy mom to take care of and all
these various things I was stillworking.
I started small bible studiesand the reality is pastor.
They were for me wow.

(01:02:51):
I needed it.
That's how it reignited me.
So I would say what is it thatyou enjoy doing that gets you
excited spiritually, and thenmake time for that and it'll
help to get you built back up.
Yeah, whatever that is that'sgood advice.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
That's good advice you're.
You begin to talk about byvocational.
That's important as well,because most pastors are
bivocational.
How was that a challenge foryou?

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
Well, I was bivocational for 10 years before
I retired Hallelujah, thankJesus and it was by choice.
My church was able for me, theywanted me, I'll put it like
that to consider was able for me, they wanted me, I'll put it
like that to consider.

(01:03:36):
And for a season I waspart-time on my job, which that
was the perfect blend when I wasable to work part-time there
and full-time in the church andeverything like that.
But then you know, with thesegovernment jobs, the longer you
are part-time, the longer yougot to work, so that had stopped
.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
Okay, you've invested so many years.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
You're trying to get to your retirement.
You're too far to go here.
I'm too far in at this point.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
I never got that far, but so you went back to full
time.
I went back to full time so Icould finish your retirement
goal and you made it, but thatwas difficult.
There's so many pastors thatare bivocational and you all are
heroes, be very that arebivocational and you all are
heroes.
Be very clear.
The bivocational pastor thatwould dare, be it because they

(01:04:21):
have to supplement income orbecause, in your case, is a
situation where it's just afiducial responsibility and
wisdom to do so is a lot, andwisdom to do so is a lot.
Just take the space to talk tothe bivocational pastor and how
you were able to navigatethrough and what may be helpful
for them.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
Well, first thing I would say is give yourself grace
.
Nobody was meant to do allthese jobs.
It's physically because I'vetalked to some sometime and
they're like, well, I can just.
I remember saying to myself ifI can just get a handle on my
schedule, if I can just get ahandle on my schedule, I'll be
all right.
And I need them to know youcannot get a handle on your
schedule because nobody wasmeant to work.

(01:05:04):
Two different, completelydifferent jobs, 40 hours a week,
et cetera, et cetera.
So it's really comes down togive us this day our daily bread
and saying, lord, help me toaccomplish what I need to
accomplish today, whatever thatis, and if I don't finish
everything on this list, you'regonna take care of it.

(01:05:26):
Listen, it's learning the artof delegation.
Now I was.
I was in a different situationthan a lot of bivocational
pastors.
I had a staff.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
And I was able to hire some folks that could work
for me full time while I wasworking full time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
Tell us about your staff.
What does it consist of?

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
Oh, I have an amazing team around me and they've been
with me.
Most of them now have been withme at least eight or nine years
.
A lot of them are collegeeducated, graduate level degree,
so that allowed me to stay inmy job and when I came in at
night I had people who could runthe shift.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
What positions do you have on staff?

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
I have now.
I have an executive minister,reverend Beaver.
I have an administrativeminister, mr Hogan.
I have a congregational caredirector, and these are all
positions under my pastorate.
I have a media specialist,digital media specialist.

(01:06:29):
I have a director of ministries, and of course we have a
director of ministries, and ofcourse we have our finance
Finance person Trying to makesure I didn't miss any positions
and then we have volunteers.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Volunteers.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
And high level volunteers.

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
I sought out as our members were retired.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
Retired yeah, you gotta get them.
I created a core.
Our members were retired.
Retired yeah, you got to getthem.

Speaker 3 (01:06:54):
I created a core of high-level volunteers.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
Got you?
Yeah, high-level volunteermeans.

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
Meaning that these are people who were at
management level on their jobsbefore they retired.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
And so now they're volunteering a certain amount of
hours a week, or isresponsibility based?

Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
Both.
Okay, yeah, both.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Other challenges bivocational spiritual
challenges, inner spirit.
And then what were some of theother challenges?

Speaker 3 (01:07:26):
Trying to think Well, legacy is a piece right,
because you've got these bigshoes to fill, wow, so let's
talk to the people who arecoming in second generation,
right?
Well, legacy is a piece, right,because you've got these big
shoes to fill, wow.
So let's talk to the people whoare coming in second generation
.
Right, that's a challenge thatyou are who you are, you know,
and you're not them.
You're grateful for your fatheror your parent who you want to

(01:07:50):
carry on the ministry, but youcan't, you're not them.
And so, where it has greatbenefits, you still have to deal
with not just the people'sexpectations, but then sometimes
you have your own expectations.
You know that you want to makesure that you're you know,
honoring and carrying forth inthe way you think they would

(01:08:12):
want you to carry forth.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
And there's a lot of stuff going on on the inside,
not just the outside yeah, soone like slightly heavy thing
before we get to some fun stuffto get you out of here.
You've been so uh, graciouswith your time and insightful.
Really appreciate thisconversation.
Um, how do you, how, how do youprocess and think through your

(01:08:37):
own legacy and relationship to?
Is there a retirement age?
Is there like hey, I'm going todo this till the wheels fall
off?
Have you been getting toprocess that at all?

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
Die in my boots.
Yes, everybody thinks aboutsuccession.
At least you should, even ifyou're not older or at an age
where you consider it.
I'm praying about it, I'mpraying through it.
It is not something that's Idon't have a date.

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
Yeah right.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
I can tell people that right now I'm feeling good.
I finally got free off thatother job to be able to devote
the time to ministry, so I don'thave that date on my calendar
right now.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
I don't mean that from an immediacy standpoint.
Do think through financiallywhere I want to be, where I want
the church to be, as it relatesto debt and also a little bit
as it relates to how the nextgeneration is being infused into

(01:09:52):
the life of the church.
For me, it's important thatwhoever be it a sudden or be it
35 years from now comes in, isbeing surrounded around
individuals that's able to dolike yourself say, we're ready
to go.
Not well, rev did it this wayand now you're handcuffed with

(01:10:18):
this.
You know the cliche of five toseven years before you become
pastor, um, and while I respectwhere that's coming from and the
true reality of that soundslike in your case and then even
in my case, I didn't have to gothrough that because of the
surrounding conglomerate that Iwas around there as a church.

(01:10:39):
So that's what I meant by that.
But you answered the question.
So let's see, let's see howmany things you can get right
here.
This is so important.
I'm really pulling for you hereon these questions.
I'm really pulling for you hereon these questions.
So grits.
How do you take your grits?
How do you use your grits?

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
I shouldn't have taken that water.
That's funny.
That is a definite debate.
Savory.

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:11:08):
No sugar.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
No sugar?
Will it really, wow, notstarting off?
Good Boy, I know you're aChristian, you read the Bible
and things like that, so Iapologize ahead for some of this
stuff.
But Godfather one or Godfathertwo Help her.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Jesus, do I have to leave if I say that I didn't
watch either?

Speaker 1 (01:11:39):
I'm very disappointed .
I am very disappointed.
Let's do something here.
Let's do something All right,let's do it.
Favorite legal movie.
Favorite legal movie.

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
Okay, let's see Favorite legal movie.
You're a lawyer now, this is alawyer, I know I have more like
legal shows that I used to watch.

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
I love the practice, we'll let you slide in.
What's the show?
I'm more of a TV show person.

Speaker 3 (01:12:06):
I love the practice back in the day that was one of
my favorites.
I still love Blue Bloodsbecause I worked in law
enforcement as a prosecutor.

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
Yeah, we got to come back.
Bring it back, get more intothat component Good Times or
Cosby Show.

Speaker 3 (01:12:27):
Probably Cosby Show.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
My goodness.

Speaker 3 (01:12:29):
Although Good Times is probably, yeah, probably
Cosby, you, you know what I'mgoing to declare Cosby show
you're going to declare it yeswow.
I had to think through it.
That's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
I had to make a decision these things will be
brought back up at another spaceat another time, but I won't do
that here because you've beensuch a good guest.
We're just trying to dive in.
Let's get the last one.
What's the last one, ronald?
What should we do here?
You got another one, for I gotone.

(01:13:02):
Did you have one?
I got one, prince or MichaelJackson.

Speaker 3 (01:13:13):
Prince.

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
Alright, let's be spiritual CL Franklin or Jasper
Williams.
Cl Franklin or Jasper Williams.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
CL Franklin.

Speaker 1 (01:13:23):
God is good.
I mean, you got one, you gotone, you got one.
No disrespect to JasperWilliams you got one, you got
one.
No disrespect to Jasmine Wells.
No disrespect.
Be very clear.
We're just dealing with the DonDada here and CL Franklin.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me, forcoming and sharing.

(01:13:44):
Thank you all for listening.
Please be on the lookout formore information about upcoming
episodes and how you can be apartner to make sure that this
space continues.
God bless you and thank you fortuning in.