Resilience and Faith: Paul Msiza's Impact on a Nation

How did a young boy from Pretoria's Mamelodi township rise against the odds to become a beacon of hope and faith across South Africa and beyond? Join us as we sit down with Pastor Paul Msiza, who shares his incredible journey from the oppressive regime of apartheid to his calling in ministry. Pastor Msiza's story is one of resilience and unwavering dedication, offering a rare glimpse into the cultural, linguistic, and religious dynamics of Southern Africa, particularly focusing on the Nguni people's languages and the widespread practice of Christianity.

We'll also explore the historical impact of colonization on South Africa, from the arrival of British settlers to the brutal imposition of apartheid by the Afrikaners. Pastor Msiza provides a powerful narrative of resistance, detailing key moments like the banning of the ANC, the rise of student protests, and the pivotal role of the church in advocating for freedom. Personal reflections on his upbringing in Mamelodi bring these historical events to life, illustrating the ongoing struggle for true liberation and economic equality.

Finally, Pastor Msiza recounts his remarkable journey to faith, overcoming numerous adversities along the way. From his radical conversion to Christianity to inspiring youth leadership and establishing a successful Bible college, his story is a testament to the transformative power of faith and community. Tune in to hear how he's spreading Christ's message across the continent and addressing the challenges posed by economic disparities and technological limitations. This episode is not just a history lesson; it’s a heartfelt narrative of courage, faith, and the enduring spirit of those who strive to make a difference.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Nuance Conversation Podcast.
I am your creator, curator andhost, george Hurd, and we have
special, special guests with ustoday on this unique episode
where we're able to cross theborders, literally, and go down
to the motherland of thediaspora of Africa, specifically

(00:21):
the country of South Africa.
We'll dig into that today.
Our guest is none other thanPastor Paul Mizza, all the way
from Pretoria, south Africa.
He's a dear friend and belovedbrother who I've shared at our
church on several occasions.
I have a couple of occasions toshare at his wonderful church
down there, the PeninsularChurch, which we'll hear much

(00:43):
about today.
Besides being the formerBaptist of the World Baptist
Alliance, the largest collectionof Baptists across the world,
he is also a powerful andprolific preacher, a loving and
caring pastor, a devoted husbandand father, and we're just so
happy that you were able to behere in Nuance Conversations.

(01:04):
How are you feeling today?
Well, I'm feeling great andthank're just so happy that you
were able to be here in NuanceConversations.
How are you feeling today?

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, I'm feeling great and thank you for having
me.
Thank you for great hospitality.
I've enjoyed myself.
I've enjoyed the churchyesterday and it's been
wonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, Los Angeles is all right a place to visit,
isn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:19):
That's right.
It's the right place for me.
It's the right place to visit.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
We're excited to have you here.
I want to dig in, but here atNuance Conversation we have to
swear you in first.
Okay, you have to swear to beempathetic.
You have to swear to beintellectual, transparent.
Nothing that I'm worried about.
Just raise your hand.
Do you swear to abide by therules of Nuance Conversation?

Speaker 2 (01:43):
Well, I do swear, you do swear, he does swear.
Listen, ladies and gentlemen,it's happening he's sworn in.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
We're ready to go here at Nuance Conversation.
It's about transparency, it'sabout being open, it's about
being intellectual, it's aboutlistening and having a sense of
empathy, a different perspective, different ideas, one of the
things that's definitely neededas it relates to that.
When we talk about thecontinent of Africa All right,

(02:09):
and I'm stressing Africa as acontinent, not as a place that
you can throw off A lot ofpeople say I want to go to
Africa, I want to go to Africa.
Africa is very nuanced,ironically enough.
Nuanced conversation as itrelates to East Africa, west
Africa, north Africa, southernregion of Africa not just South
Africa in that Southern region,then Central Africa, some of the

(02:33):
ABCs, the continent of Africa.
For dummies, how would you makethat distinction as it relates
to those five major regions?
And then we'll dive into someof the nuances.
As it relates to your hometown,the southern region, yeah, yeah
, our motherland.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Let me just begin by saying that you know people
don't actually know.
Most don't know that Africa isone of the largest continent.
If you take a flight from CapeTown up to the North Cairo, you
will not fly less than 10 hours.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
That's how large the continent is from south to up
north and, interestingly, youhave this fascinating diversity
that you find.
In the South you would findmostly the Nguni people and most

(03:36):
the dominant faith will beChristianity.
We say Nguni people.
Nguni people will be people whospeak almost a similar language
.
It's almost similar.
It's linked when we try totrace this.
It's linked to the LakeDistrict, to the Central Africa,
to Congo, to the main language.

(03:59):
When you come out of Congo yousee those languages developing
and showing some variety as wemove towards the south.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
So in the southern region you have a logistic that
is also similar.
Then you have the religionaspect.
That's also similar.
The religion is Christian andthe language is.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Luginic.
Yeah, yeah, the language,though it's different tribal
languages, but somewhere,somehow, you can hear similar
words, similar words.
When you are in Zimbabwe, it'smainly Shona and Debele, and in
South Africa you do find Debele,and when you listen to Shona,

(04:37):
you pick up some of the triballanguages spoken in South Africa
, like Venda you pick Shangani,you pick Sotho, you know, within
the Shona language itself.
And so, and then these languagesdon't really they're not so far
apart when you also listen tohow the Chochowa speak in Zambia

(04:59):
or Malawi, you know.
So there's some that similarityin those languages.
And then the other thing as yousaid, you'd find that the
dominant religion would beChristianity.
Then the other thing, also thestaple food.
We all use corn as our staplefood.

(05:23):
It's grounded corn that theypound, it pounded until it's
like flour, and then they cooked, and then we eat that with meat
or vegetables and all that.
So that's very common Taco-ish.
It's like you would cook yourgrits but you'd make it hard
Gotcha, all right, yeah.

(05:45):
So that's very common that youfind in the southern region, the
dietary similarities.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Dietary similarities, language similarities,
religious similarities that'sright.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
And then you go to the east East Africa yes, east
Africa has almost like a commonlanguage and you go to Tanzania,
kenya.
You go to Ethiopia and you findthis At least Ethiopia would
find that there's a little bitof difference.

(06:17):
But if you look at Uganda, whatis this?
Where there was this massacre,the Somalia, somalia, ethiopia,
rwanda.
If you look at Uganda, rwanda,kenya, tanzania, the similarity
of language, a little bit oflanguage Of course, then the

(06:43):
other part of East Africa isalmost tied to North Africa,
tied to North Africalanguage-wise, language that is
linked to Arabic, that's linkedto Arabic and then North Africa
mostly is Arabic.
And then very interesting,interesting Central Africa is

(07:07):
divided.
That's why you see division.
In Central Africa you findanglophone and England and and
the francophone.
You have anglophone Nigeria,sierra Leone, liberia, ghana,
then then you have to go, thatwould be Francophone, you know

(07:28):
Togo, mali, senegal, chad, niger, those who speak.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
So you name West African countries, but you're
saying in this region of CentralAfrica there are migrants from
that area.
West Africa, nigeria, ghana,sierra Salon.
West Africa, nigeria, ghana,sierra Salon.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
So, yeah.
So, as I've said, east Africathere's commonality in language
a little bit, and then you havethose that have a language
that's similar to Arabic, arab,yeah, okay.
And then North Africa it's allArabic, it's all Arab, okay.
Then you go to West Africa,that West Africa, you find that

(08:08):
it's almost divided intoAnglophone and Francophone.
In West Africa, language-wiseLanguage-wise, yes, but
culture-wise there's so much ofsimilarity.
You look at the dress code Someof the tribal language have
similarities In West Africa.
In West Africa, like in Ghanaand in Nigeria and so forth.

(08:31):
And then central let me go toCentral Africa, which is the
most richest part of Africa,really, oh yeah, drc Congo,
mm-hmm, oh, you have everything.
Wow.
You have everything.

(08:52):
Dominican Republic of Congoyeah, the Democratic Republic of
Congo has the deposit of.
You have copper, you havediamond, you have gold.
You have in abundance.
It has rain throughout the year.
It could supply the whole ofAfrica with water if

(09:17):
infrastructure was made possible.
That's the most part.
That should be rich.
And when you go to the West,the West also is rich in oil
deposits.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
So the natural resources are rich in Central,
especially uniquely rich inCentral and West Africa.
The Central Africa division andconflict that happens there
often.
Is that tied to the economic ofnatural resources?

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yes, yes, yes.
That's why you find thatCentral Africa will always have
instability politicalinstability and that is caused
mainly by the resource Naturalresources and that is caused
mainly the resource Naturalresources, Natural resources.
There's this fight over naturalresources and, as an African, I

(10:12):
can say this I swear that I'lltell the truth.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yes, you should.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
The West is still involved in destabilizing Africa
, because as long as Africa isdestabilized politically, they
will always loot, they willalways manage to get our mineral
resources out.
But if our governments getstable politically then they

(10:44):
know that the looting will end.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
And West Africa plays a large role, you say in that.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
West Africa, central Africa, it plays a major, major
role.
Where there's politicalinstability, you'd find Central
Africa, west Africa, then partof East Africa, places like

(11:21):
Tanzania, Kenya, uganda.
They're mostly quiet and mostly, you know, peaceful.
But when you go up to Sudan,where there's oil, there's
always fight.
There's always fighting.
Yeah, there's always fightinggoing on.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
And Sudan is considered Northern Africa.
It's part of Northern Africa,yes.
However, it's very unique fromthe rest of Northern Africa
where it's more Arab, differentcomplexion, different features.
Sudan is largely dark, verydark to get very tall people.
Yes, people of South Sudan.
Is there a role of the conflictthat Sudan has?

(11:58):
I know within itself it has theChristian and Muslim conflict
that's taken place that's evenled to the Northern and Southern
Division.
Yeah, how about therelationship with the rest of
Northern Africa?
Does Sudan seem like an outcastcomparatively to Moroccans and
Egyptians and people from Libya?

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, yeah, and I want to still have to do a
serious historical research onwhy Sudan has not come where it
is, so connected to the rest ofNorth Africa.
It's not that connected, rightConnected geographically, I mean

(12:57):
connected Miles away, withEgypt going up to Libya, tunisia
, morocco.
You see that connection, yeah,you see that connection
Absolutely yeah.
But you don't see that muchwith Sudan.

(13:21):
And I don't know whether is itbecause Sudan has been engaged
in a civil war that has gone fordecades One does not know
actually what is the cause, butSudan has always been one
unstable country politically.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Let's talk about the southern region.
That's where you're from, notjust South Africa, but the
Southern region as a whole.
What are the countries thatmake up the Southern region of
Africa?
Yeah, your neighboringsurrounding there, that's right.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yes, we call it the SADC.
Yeah, south African DevelopmentEconomy.
That's the Southern region.
You have Zambia, zambia, youhave Malawi, malawi, mozambique.
You have Zambia, zambia, youhave Malawi, malawi, mozambique.
You have Mozambique.
You have Angola, angola, youhave Zimbabwe, botswana, namibia

(14:17):
, lesotho, swaziland and SouthAfrica.
Wow.
All right.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
What are the distinctions Generally speaking,
because I know that's a largerconversation.
Generally speaking, what arethe distinctions in the southern
region?
We talked about the language,but how would you distinguish a
South African from maybe someonefrom Botswana or Zimbabwe?
Is there a big difference?

(14:44):
Not a big difference at all.
No, no.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
No, there's not much difference.
You would, let me say you'dbegin to see difference when you
go to Malawi.
Malawians would be a little bitshorter in stature, Okay.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
I've been to Malawi.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But when you cross over again,go to Zambia.
Zambians look like SouthAfricans.
Okay, and.
Zambians have like.
One of the famous surname inZambia is Zulu, zulu, zulu.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
And you find Zulu, zulu, zulu.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
So that's that connection.
But yes, the Zimbabweans haveshown us certain features, but
that's not so much differentreally.
You can't tell unless you livein the region and the Botswana
people and we have Botswana, wehave the Botswana as a country
and we have the Botswana peoplein South Africa, many of them

(15:42):
people in South Africa, many ofthem.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
And so, yeah, let's go back for a second before we
go deeper into South Africa.
As a union or as a group, isthere an African council?
Is there a governmentaloversight of the continent as a
whole, and what's the structureof that?
Yeah, the AU, the AU yeah,African.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Union, that's right, the AU, and its headquarters
it's in Ethiopia, in Addis.
So the AU, it's the what you'dsay a political wing, that kind
of like seek to bring Africatogether.

(16:25):
That's what AU does.
The vision actually came withour we call the fathers of
Africa, those who fought for ourliberation, Kwame Nkrumah, jomo
Kenyatta.
Those are the people we cameand go back to, even Hele

(16:46):
Selassie, who have been yearningto see Africa united.
And so they came with the unityof Africa, and then it became
AU, the African Union.
It has, as I say, its parliament.
It's in Ethiopia, but also ithas its regional structures and

(17:14):
it's divided according to, asyou've mentioned, the southern
one, southern region, southernregion, eastern region, the
Ekoas, which is the east, I meanthe Eko, which is the western
one, and then you've got thenorthern one.
I'm not sure of how thenorthern one is coordinated, but

(17:34):
I can rest assured, I know thewest, one western region.
It's on the news all the time,it's well coordinated.
The southern one on the newsall the time, it's well
coordinated.
The southern one on the newsall the time, it's well
coordinated.
It's called the SADC, southAfrican Development Coalition,
something of those countries.
It works together so well, butstill, it's just there to

(18:00):
support one another.
They don't do much.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, so back to the southern region, let's get into
South Africa, best known inthese western shores for the
apartheid, nelson Mandela, thatwas around about when you were
late teens, early 20s, I'mguessing.
All that has taken place.
What is apartheid, what aresome of the dimensions that led

(18:29):
to it, and how would yousummarize that to someone that
lived through it, that's heardabout it but doesn't really know
the nuance of it?

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Maybe a quick explanationshould be in the 1800s,
specifically 1820, the Britishsettlers came to settle in the
Cape and that's when the problemstarted.
Colonization yeah, thecolonization started A common

(19:01):
practice of British monarch.
That's right, because the firstpeople to come from Europe to
South Africa were the Dutch,from Netherlands.
They came and what they did?
They built a halfway station inthe Cape for the trading
vessels ships that were sailingon the west coast of Africa down

(19:23):
to the south, going up on theeast coast to India, because the
Mediterranean Sea was infestedwith pirates at the time.
So then Cape became a halfwaystation.
So the Dutch came, built ahalfway station, the French came
, fought them, but then theBritish took over.
The British did not build ahalfway station, but they

(19:45):
colonized.
What's a halfway station?
Halfway station?
They would kind of like.
When the ships would come, theywould stop there, refresh
themselves, get fresh fruit,fresh food, fresh water.
More of a partnership.
There was no partnership.
It was doing something onsomebody's land without
permission.
Without permission, got you,they had built a halfway station
, got you?
Yeah, so they had built ahalfway station Some vigilante

(20:07):
terrorist yeah withoutnegotiating with the people.
Yeah, but at the time it was nota problem because what they
were doing, even though theywere robbing our people, they
would trade.
They would bring some of theirproducts and then to buy meat.

(20:28):
So they'll trade with thecursors, with the koi and the
sand people.
You know, can you sell us thatkettle, we'll give you a mirror
and all that.
And so that was, you know,trading.
That was happening there, butit had no bearing on the whole
country.
The bearing on the whole country, the bearing on the whole
country, came when the Britishcame and put their flag on the

(20:52):
soil of South Africa.
And then the British did this.
They oppressed everybody,including the Dutch.
The Dutch had come and theywere settling in the Cape, and
also we had the French.
So what was happening?
If one would explain that SouthAfrica was kind of like a

(21:15):
dumping place for Europe, whenthey would have excess soldiers
who'd come from war and hadnowhere to go, no money, their
home countries could not paythem for, they would promise
them we can take you to a placewhere you can have a big piece
of land without you paying allas a compensation.

(21:36):
So they brought these load ofsoldiers from the wars that were
fought with the Britain,between British and Russia and
all that.
So those soldiers were dumpedthere and lately they brought
women, and so we have now acommunity of Europeans now in

(21:56):
South Africa, but they were allunder the rule of the British
and the Afrikaners did not wantthat.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
They were not.
Afrikaners are natural SouthAfricans.
Yeah, those were the DutchAfrikaners are.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
Dutch, they were Dutch.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
Those were the Dutch.
They were not native.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
They did not want that.
Of course, the South African,the native people, fought.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
White on white crime.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
They fought and fought, but unfortunately these
Africans wanted their ownindependence from the masses,
the colonizers, from the British.
Now, you are not in your owncountry.
They were in South Africa.

(22:44):
They had made South Africatheir home.
They rebelled against theBritish oppression, the
oppressive system of thecolonizers, of the British, and
then, as soon as they got theirindependence from the British
colonial system, they thenunleashed that anger that they

(23:08):
suffered onto us.
That's when apartheid wasintroduced.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
So apartheid, the oppressor of the Dutch who
fought for their freedom fromthe British.
But after they got the samefreedom that they fought for,
they used that same manipulationupon the natives of the land.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yes, the worst anger on us.
They then unleashed that system, which wasn't segregation.
It was a horrible systembecause it did not only
segregate but it dehumanized.
I explained that Native SouthAfricans during the apartheid

(23:53):
were aliens in their own country.
We had no citizenship.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Took away your citizenship.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
No citizenship, so you'd be arrested.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
So this is nuanced conversations, yes.
The question, I guess honest,tough question there is where is
the South African Native Army,where is the South African
Native political structureduring this time structure,
during this time?
You know what is theinfrastructure of the homeland

(24:29):
that makes them so vulnerable?
To a group of people who justgot out of a brutal war
themselves, it would seeminglybe not at their apex.
Okay, what is those internalthings?
Was it internal division?
Was it internal division?
Was it just never expectedanything like that, sort of like

(24:50):
the Native Americans?
What would you say to that Was?

Speaker 2 (24:54):
the shrewdness of the colonial system.
Let's go back to the first wars.
Now you ask about the structure.
Where were the structures ofthe natives?
Look, our people werestructured very well into clans
and tribes and they had chiefsand kings.

(25:14):
Zulu tribe oh yeah, you havethe Zulus, the Khazars, the
Beles, the Sutus, the Swazis.
All of them were well organized.
They had their own soldiers andtheir main focus was on
fighting wars.
Of course, their main focus wasbuilding their communities.
Right, If they had to go andfight, then they had Amabuto

(25:34):
soldiers that they would releaseto go and fight.
But our people remember that.
Remember that.
You know, Africans have thisthing that it's a God-given
virtue of wanting to live withyour neighbor in peace.

(25:55):
Wanting to live it derives fromUbuntu.
You want to live with yourneighbor in peace.
There's no need for us to fight.
If the land is so vast, we canalways move to another place and
so you can have your cattle,your cattle, to graze freely and
all that.
So these African tribes werealways moving around, you know,
and there were conflicts, butthey wouldn't deliberately cause

(26:19):
the conflicts.
But what happened is in ourhistory.
We have what we call thefrontier wars, wars at the
borders, frontier.
When the British wanted toexpand their colonization,

(26:40):
remember they were only in theCape.
They wanted to expand and moveon to the inner part of the Cape
the southern border, yeah, thesouthern part.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
The southern tip, the border where the ships comes in
.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, the southern tip, the foreign trade and
things of that nature.
That's right.
Yeah, if you look at them withthe southern tip, that's where
the Cape is Now.
They wanted to move inland andtake the whole land and they
discovered that as they exploredthere and the land was so
fertile and they had no reasonsthat they could tell their

(27:13):
masters in Britain to say wewant to expand because what they
had was sufficient.
But the greed they wanted toexpand and therefore you read
the stories on the frontier warsthey began to create a
narrative and the narrative theycreated was that the natives

(27:36):
are wild, uncivilized,treacherous, treacherous, can
never be brought to civilization.
According to their terms, theyare wild, they are treacherous,

(27:57):
worse than ants.
They cannot be.
They said these weretreacherous savages who needed
to be dominated and killed.
And so when the Britishgovernment and the British
monarch got that message, theysent soldiers who were coming

(28:17):
with guns, cannons to fight,cannons to fight, because we're
using sticks and so the Britishare coming to support the Dutch.
No, these are British supportingthe British.
Now, after they've come andovercame the Dutch, they want to

(28:40):
expand the British colony.
The Dutch are also under theBritish now, so originally are
also under the British now.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
So originally you said the Dutch beat out the
British.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
So they were the first.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
They were the first to come, then the British came
back after that, so the Dutchcame, built the halfway station,
all right.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
And then let's leave the French out, because they
came also to try and build thestation, but they were
immediately defeated by theDutch.
So the British come and theytook over.
When they took over, they makeeven the Dutch to be their
subjects.
So the Dutch are now subjectsof the British.

(29:24):
The British are the ones whoare now bringing soldiers to
come and fight, not the Dutch,the Khalsa people.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
Salsa is native Africa Salsa people.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
They're fighting the Khoi and the San people.
Now you're asking why arepeople not organized?
I'm going to give you oneinstance which is so painful the
war, one of the frontier wars.
The British lost and theyrealized that they were losing

(29:59):
against the Causas and theywanted to have truce.
So they invited the king tocome to the Cape and make peace
with the British.
On arrival they arrested him,Killed him.

(30:20):
Now you're dealing with peoplewho are very evil.
When they talk peace, it's notpeace.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
It's a setup.
The venture of the natives isthat we want to live's, not
peace.
It's a setup.
It's a setup.
The venture of the natives isthat we want to live together in
peace?

Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yes, and so they started to eliminate our Xhosa
kings.
Some of them were arrested andtaken to Britain as prisoners of
the royal famine.
And when you take out leaders,the nation gets destabilized.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
What about the surrounding countries in the
African Union?
Has it been established yet?
At this point, no.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
African Union was not established at that point.
These were very early years.
African Union came notestablished at that point.
These were very early years.
African Union came very late.
Now you have these warshappening, the British doing all
their tricks every time toovercome.
Some of the wars, you'd read,are with the Zulus against the

(31:35):
Zulus.
They fought against the Zulusand they lost.
And losing those battles theywould find a way to turn things
around, sign peace that wouldfavor them.
They took advantage of ourkindness.

(31:58):
Answering your earlier question, why did the people not resist?
They took advantage of ourkindness.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
So, there was resistance but it was always
manipulating the virtue ofwanting to live in peace.
Just for my own clarity theDutch never overtook the British
in apartheid.
Yeah, I'm coming to the DutchOkay.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Because I was answering your question of why
were the natives just sittingback and as if they said no,
right, and that's not.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
I'm asking this for the other people, not me.
That's good, it's very helpful.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
This is history that people need to know, because
that's a question, that's alegitimate question that people
want to know.
Why did not our people fight?
They fought, they weremanipulated, they had victories,
and every time they would havea victory, then there would be
something that happens in orderto turn that victory Gotcha.
And in one of the wars, forexample, they fought, which was

(33:10):
fought in the Khazad and withthe Zulus, is that the Zulus
defeated the British and whenthe British would try to make
peace, it would not be the peaceof we've defeated you, it would

(33:34):
be the peace of let's not fight, but we still take part of the
land.
For me, if I'm trying to readhistory, that's what they would
do.
And now you have our peoplecontinue to fight and those wars
they come up even to the areawhere Pretoria is.
That's where my tribe was.

(33:55):
Yeah, pretoria, the capital.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
Yeah, yeah, if you, that's where my tribe was.
Yeah, pretoria, the capital.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, if you go north of where my tribe was not there
.
My tribe fought against thesewars, I mean these white people,
and they defeated them, butstill the whites would find a
way to manipulate.
They were the ones who were tobe called the names that they
called the causes were you knowwhen they said causes were

(34:25):
vicious?

Speaker 3 (34:25):
these savages and now let's help to connect with the
Afrikaners.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
The Afrikaners also suffered the oppression by the
British colonial system, andthen they left the Cape to go
and seek their own independence.
So those days it was wagons,cattle.
So they had their wagons, theymoved and the British followed
them and there was what theycall Anglo-Boer War.

(35:00):
It is now given the new name.
It's called the South AfricanWar, Like your Confederate War,
the war that took place betweenNorth and South.
So we had a war like that.
It was now the Afrikanersfighting British.
But the evil of that war wasthat blacks were made to be the

(35:21):
ones who go and fight in a warthat was not theirs.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Wow For both sides, for both sides, wow, certain
tribes and things of that nature.
The birth of Nelson Mandelaultimately leads to the freedom
of Peace Treaty.
We've heard the broad strokes,but for someone who lived

(35:49):
through it, what is the role inthis proper historical context
of Nelson Mandela and maybe evenyour analysis of both pros and
cons?

Speaker 2 (36:00):
of that era.
Yeah, I was born during theapartheid era when I started to
understand what was happening inthe country.
I mean, as a child, mandela wasalready in prison.
Born in the 60s, born in 1961.
Mandela was already arrested,sentenced.
But we knew about him aschildren that there was this

(36:24):
person who's being jailed forlife and he's a great hero.
So we always kind of held himat an esteem, even though we'd
never saw any picture of him.

(36:48):
Wow, and the struggle was foughtinside and outside the country.
When Mandela got arrested, theANC got banned.
The struggle went outside thecountry.
Most of the people left thecountry to try and seek support.
But 1970, then the strugglestarted to escalate.

(37:09):
That's when the students tookover the struggle.
1976 became the turning pointof everything and the students
were fighting to resist the useof Afrikaans as a medium of
instruction.
That led into the country beingin flame burned.

(37:31):
You know we had spent thatwhole year of 1976 not at school
.
I was at secondary school atthe time.
We spent almost since 1976, wewent back to school around about
September late.
There was instability in thecountry.
They tried to suppress I meanthe apartheid government tried

(37:55):
to suppress the struggle, but itescalated.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
This is rioting, this is looting, this is protests.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's what's happening now.
It's people are now formingresistant movements.
There's boycotts which became avery strong weapon.
There's boycotts which became avery strong weapon.
There's resistance movementOutside South Africa is now
boycotted by other countries.
Who helped us?

(38:25):
Partners, traders.
That's right Now.
What's happening also is thatnow a lot of young people left
the country to join theLiberation Armies.
Young people left the countryto join the liberation armies
the one which was led by the ANC, the other one led by the PAC
Pan-African Congress and the oneled by the Azania People's

(38:51):
Liberation.
So all these, then they wouldcome back and do attacks.
They'll bomb the bus station,they'll bomb places where the
white people will be, and so thecountry was now not safe for
white people.
And so, come 1980, it becameworse and worse, because most of

(39:19):
those who had fled the countryto go and be trained came into
the country, and so we werefighting.
The church had moved.
Now when I say the church, I'lltalk those who are aligned with
the South African Council ofChurches.
That's what it does to us now.

(39:40):
Leading that Frank Chikani, alanBoussac, leading that prophetic
voice against apartheid, andultimately it ended to the point
where the apartheid governmentfelt they're not going to make
it by trying to resist.

(40:01):
It's either the economy willcollapse or this escalation of
violence will end up in a civilwar.
So the decision to releaseMandela, the decision to unbend
the ANC.
When Mandela was released, heplayed a major role to negotiate
for a peaceful settlement anddid something that of course,

(40:25):
the world will forever thank himfor to teach the world
something about forgiveness,which you know made him.
People call him a saint andMandela says he's not a saint,
he's just a sinner, like anyperson.
But he understood one thingForgive them that if you don't
forgive, you will not be able tomove forward.

(40:45):
You yourself become a prisonerof your own anger.
Wow.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
What is the residue of the apartheid movement in
South Africa today?

Speaker 2 (40:54):
of the apartheid movement in South Africa.
Today, the residue of theapartheid movement is that
Mandela helped us to gainpolitical freedom and the
leadership that is there thenand now was supposed to move the
country forward to economicfreedom, and that has not been

(41:16):
realized.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
Political freedom, but not economic freedom, that's
right.
Sounds like a familiar place.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
So you still have the economy in the hands of the
minority whites?
Is there movements?

Speaker 1 (41:31):
that are going against this, or is it kind of
settled as a social norm at thispoint?

Speaker 2 (41:38):
are going against this or is it kind of settled as
a social norm at this point?
Yeah, now there's quite a verystrong resistance or strong move
to change the status quo.
What has kind of delayed thestruggle or the transfer of the

(41:59):
economy to the majority was onethat the ANC had its own
internal fight with.
Now the ANC that was in 1994.
The hero has now become thevillain, dark Knight.
Villain, dark Knight feelingyeah, because they have been

(42:20):
found to be peddlingself-interest at the expense of
moving the struggle forward.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
Advocates of the struggle are benefiting from the
struggle and there's notrickle-down economics going on
there to the strugglers.
Yeah, sounds familiar, pastorPaul.
Yes, I heard you say you wereborn in 1961.
1961, naturally, us a littlebit about yourself as it relates

(43:00):
to where you were born, yourjourney into Christianity, your
family structure, as much as youfeel comfortable sharing with
that, okay.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, well, born 1961 in Pretoria, but blacks were
not allowed to live in the city.
So we're in the township ofMamelodi.
So that's my home.
That's my birthplace ofMamelodi.
So that's my home.
That's my birthplace, mamelodi,a place of whistling, all right
, that's where I was born.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Whistling, yeah, whistling A place of whistling
Mamelodi.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
So I lived there with my parents.
So I lived there with myparents.
My parents were those who wereaffected by apartheid More than
I was the fact that they had notgone to school.
My mom used to tell me that shehad gone to school up to grade

(43:55):
two.
Wow, my dad, I think, nevergone to school up to grade two.
My dad never went to school,wow, but he—.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
And that's because the system didn't allow them to
go to school.
Oh no, the system.

Speaker 2 (44:07):
They wouldn't allow Black people used to work in the
farms for white people and theywould refuse for blacks to take
their children to schoolbecause they would say, when you
work in a farm, you stay in thefarm and then your children
need to work for your rent.
So as soon as children becomelike teenagers at the age of 12

(44:34):
or even younger they would bestarting to work in the farm.
So my parents never went toschool.
My dad was a soldier in theSecond World War.
He was drafted in the army.
He was based in North Africaduring the Second World War,
came back and the only thank youhe got was a bicycle, never

(44:56):
paid for having served there.
It was a bicycle.
And then when they builtMamilodi, then that was another
way of compensating them toallow them to occupy those
houses on a lease, not asownership on a lease.
So, yes, we stayed in thathouse, but an unfortunate thing

(45:20):
happened that my parentsseparated, when I was nine years
old, any siblings.
They separated.
Do you have any siblings?
I have siblings.
Yes, we were six.
Yeah, six survived.
We had about 11 children, butonly six survived.
You know, we're about 11 11children, but only six survived

(45:41):
lived to become adults.
So yeah, I have.
I had four sisters and onebrother.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
They died in birth.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yeah, so I am last from the young one.
Yeah, my two sisters, it's mytwo older sisters.
My brother, my sister, me andmy baby sister was just passed
on to be with the Lord.

(46:12):
So we are left now.
There's only two of us left tobe with the.
Lord.
So we are left.
Now there's only two of us whoare left, and so growing up in a
township helped to conscientizeme of the political situation
of our country.
But when my parents separated,I had to go and live in a
village way remote area.

(46:34):
So we're scattered as childrensome more to live within the
village.
I in a village.
I went to stay at mygrandmother's on the maternal
grandmother with my one sisterand and my brother, my only
brother.
The other sister said to gostay with my aunt.
So so yeah, that was the mostdifficult time of my life, and

(47:02):
to go to school in a rural area,you know.
But the good thing that as achild sometimes you don't see
these hardships.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
It's only now when I think about it, yeah, when you
look back at it right and yourealize this was tough.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
This was tough, I mean, coming back from school.
There'll be no food, and that'sit.
Yeah.
Yeah, you have to live withwhatever is there.
So that was a kind of life.
You know, going to school wewalked, I don't know it was
three, four miles or five miles.
It's a long distance that weused to walk to school and back,

(47:39):
and so, yeah, that was part ofmy childhood life and then also,
when it comes to my faith, myparents were nominal Christians.
My parents were nominalChristians and I would

(48:01):
understand why that Christianityin South Africa was seen as a
religion of the oppressor, andso a lot of people were just
attached to the church, just tofill in the government forms,
you know, and they say you're aChristian and they'll tick that
box, but otherwise folk neverwent to church.
So it was only when I wasaround about 12, 13 or so I

(48:23):
started looking for a church onmy own, you know, with my knees.
We started going to one churchwhich was in the neighborhood,
the National IndependentCongregational Church, and then
confirmed in the church but, youknow, had no real connection to
faith in god.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
So you just basically went to 10.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Yeah, something to do love singing, you know, like
the church songs.
You know god had just put forme that hunger for God, you know
.
So, really, songs used to movemy heart a lot and so only late
in my teen years that I had thegospel and gave my life to the
Lord.
And when that happened for thefirst time I didn't have any.

(49:17):
There was no church I could goto.
So I didn't see any growth.
But 1980, there was a verystrong it started before that a
strong Christian studentChristian movement, scm.
It became very strong and therewas a great revival.
A lot and lot of young peoplein high school, secondary

(49:41):
schools, universities came tothe Lord through that movement.
Wow.
So when that happened, that'swhen I committed my life to
Christ, there was no evangelicalchurch in the area.
So we translated what we hadreceived from the SCM at school

(50:05):
and brought it to Sunday and westarted a church on our own as
young people so we used to haveone pastor would come visit us.
You know, if one pastor wouldcome visit us, you know.
But we used to meet under thistree and that was our church.
And we then decided to build asmall structure you know, mud

(50:26):
bricks and we built a church andthe church gave birth to what
today is First WinterfieldBaptist Church and the church is
still there and so, yeah, andwhen God called me, I became a
pastor of the church for aboutthree and a half years.
Oh, wow.
Yeah and yeah.
So that was my life.

(50:48):
And also my wife was part ofthose young people who formed
that church.
Wow.
With the youth together therewho formed the church, were the
youth together there?
And yeah, I'll say yeah, ourlives are very, very affected by
the historical events of ourcountry, unfortunately, but God

(51:11):
has been gracious.
You know that we are where weare in life and we are thankful.
We are in life and we arethankful to God and thankful to
the world community.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
What were some of the ways that you would evangelize?
As one that was young andzealous about the faith, I can
see the young militant PastorPaul out there in the village
yelling to come under the treefor church on sunday.
Uh, what?
What was your development as itrelates to your passion for
evangelism and preaching?

Speaker 2 (51:48):
man, you can't believe.
I started preaching in buses.
Buses, yeah, tell me about that.
Yeah, preaching the bus whenI'll be coming.
I used used to do some what wecall them peace jobs.
You get a job on a Saturdayjust to get some money, yeah, so
when I would come from workthen I would stand up in a bus,

(52:10):
greet everybody and start topreach and preach.
And that started.
And then, uh, the fire startedto burn very hard for preaching
and, um, you know my family, Ilet my you know, uh, family

(52:31):
members to the lord something.
And then, yeah, uh it.
Then I went to become a teacher.
And the reason when somebodyasked me, I remember one of the
senior person asked me when he Iwas about to finish my matric
and said where are you going tocollege?
What are you going to say?
I want to become a teacher.
And he asked me why.
I said that's an onlyopportunity I can reach people

(52:52):
with the gospel.
And when I became a teacher1981, 82, 84, oh my God, yes, I
preached and preached.
So many people came to know theLord.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
Tell me about, just walk me through a scene of
Pastor Paul on the bus sharingthe gospel.
You're finished your temporaryjob on Saturday.
You're on your way back longthe gospel.
You're finished your temporaryjob on Saturday.
That's right.
You're on your way back longday work.
You drop your money in a can topay for your ride.
What happens next?

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Yeah, you get into the bus and you wait until the
bus has finished all the stopsand it's going to take a long
ride.
Okay, the bus has finished allthe stops and it's going to take
a long ride, okay, and you knowthat, okay, between this stop
and the next stop is going to beno stopping.
And then you, you know, youknow I had a battle within me, I

(53:49):
had a battle with him For thefirst time.
I was doing that.
This battle, stand up, stand up, tell them, you know, and so I
would rise.
you know, and I remember I waswith my friend and he was
surprised and I stood up andsaid to everybody greetings.
In the wonderful name of ourLord and Savior, jesus Christ,
let me share the gospel with you.
And I started, you know, justgo to one verse in the scripture

(54:13):
and began to preach.
you know, they're listeningverse in the scripture and began
to preach.
They're listening, people werelistening, some were talking
back to me, some were cross, butsome we could see that this
caught them because they hearsomebody says God can save you,
god loves you.
And it was difficult those daysbecause it was at the height of

(54:37):
our struggle.
And so to be bold, to stand upand speak, that means you know
what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
You said Christianity , you're passionate about it,
but you also said that manypeople felt that it was a white
man's religion, the oppressor'sreligion.
More specifically, did you feelthat way?
Why did you?
Or why did you not feel thatway?
How did you still embrace thefaith in light of that?

(55:07):
Talk about that.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
Yeah, let me say my conversion was very radical,
dramatic, and God proved overand over that he's alive.
It was not just some peoplejust go to church and get

(55:35):
connected.
No, for me it was a reallyradical transformation.
Let me just pick up one or twothings.
I was this naughty boy.
I was caught up in many things.
One thing I was addicted to,and which I hate, was smoking,
and when I got saved I said God,god, prove yourself by making

(56:00):
me to stop smoking.
And I can tell you, god did thathmm, and that was a
confirmation and my aunt who wasnow taking care of me because,
because my mom had passed away,I lost my parents, and my mom at

(56:22):
age 12, my dad at age 19.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
So my aunt but your grandmother-.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Yeah, my grandmother was staying at her place, but
she had already passed.
She was staying with my auntsand uncles.
So my aunt said one day youknow, you have changed.
Hmm my friends said you havechanged.

(56:50):
We know you.
There's a young man, he's goingto be with the Lord.
His name he shared the samename as you.
His name was George I love himso much.
Great man, great man.
George was with me at thesecondary school when I got
converted.
I was at high school.
He heard that I was convertedand this is what George said If

(57:13):
God can change that man that weknew here was just a nuisance, I
am receiving Christ.
George, we came upon again andhe never turned back.
And he said you know what?

Speaker 1 (57:30):
We knew who you were.
I can believe George neverturned back.
I mean that sounds likesomething that George would do.
Isn't that true?
Yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
So for me, then, I would defend my faith from the
fact that it's my life.
It's personal experience,personal experience.
But worst thing that God didfor me was that God started to
affirm the faith in also thegiftings.

(58:01):
When I pray for people, they'llget healed.
So it was not that faith, itwas tumor inside me.
So even when somebody would sayto me this is an oppressor's
religion, I would argue withthem and said indeed, you're
right that they say they'reChristians, but they are not.

(58:27):
And I remember when I wasteaching at high school, one
time the students you know Iused to preach at the we gather
in the morning.
We call it an assembly gatherin the morning for prayers
before I go to class and I wouldpreach there.
I mean, yeah, god would justtouch people's life.
And one young man said say, Iwas teaching biology in class.
I said, before you teachbiology today, I want to

(58:48):
challenge you about the gospel.
Do you think this gospel reallywill help us to solve the
problems of this country?
And I said, well done, this isa good question.
And I showed the part of thethat you see, without the, the

(59:09):
gospel, we are powerless.
And showing them that, look, weneed to be strong mentally, we
need to be strong morally, weneed to be strong so that when
we get our freedom we don't getwasted, because we might get it
and lose it, but if we arestrong, if we have God on our

(59:31):
side, we will not be able to.
And so I used to get those kindof engaging and but also I had
my own internal struggle when Ihad to deal with white people,
when I had to deal face now thehorrors of oppression, when a

(59:53):
white person will do somethingevil to me, and then I would ask
God, how do I respond?
So when my brother got arrestedand sent to Robben Island, I
was at secondary school and myolder sister said to me now you

(01:00:18):
need to know how to play thegame, because you are on the
radar of the system.
You can be arrested anytime.
Be careful of what you saybecause system you can be
arrested anytime.
Be careful of what you saybecause they are looking, they
are searching for you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
This is your blood, brother, my blood brother, my
only blood brother, and he gotarrested for the gospel.
Oh, no, no no Speaking againstthe Africanas.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Oh no, he did something worse.
They beat up a white folk,almost killed them, wow, yeah,
so they had a riot and he wasthese naughty guys you know led
this riot and they went to thefarm.
People looted the farm and hemanhandled the white man, wow,

(01:01:08):
and so he got arrested.
So you know.
And violence was never an optionfor you.
That's what you're battlingwith, mm-hmm.
You're battling with that tosay how do I respond to this?
And so every time you face withthis, I used to think of you

(01:01:32):
know, you think of the family.
I'm the only one now left.
I have to take care of mysisters and especially my baby
sister.
I cannot risk to be arrested.
My brother also.
When I wrote to him the letterfirst time in Robben Island, he
wrote to me back and said playcool, just write Soft stuff,
don't send any serious stuff.

(01:01:54):
Yeah.
But I didn't realize how muchthey wanted me, the system, up
until I was at teacher training.
I was at college and they sentthis policeman decorated.
He came and offered mescholarship and I knew that this
is a system.
They said we can do anythingfor you, oh my God.

(01:02:16):
And I said no.
And he came and said no, hesent a white boy who was a
friend of mine.
I said go tell him, no, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
So that's an amazing story, and the parallels to the
American experience are justgems that are right on the
surface.
You don't have to dig into it,and so I'm hearing it and I'm
trusting our listeners will hearthe parallels and digest it as
it need be.
But I do have to ask you aboutthe journey as it relates to and

(01:02:49):
to pastor ministry, with allthat is to backdrop your rise to
the president of the WorldBaptist Alliance, all that you
have been able to do at thePenny Hill Salem Baptist Church
in Pretoria.
What's the progression as itrelates to going from this young
, passionate literally buspreacher to now part of one of

(01:03:16):
the biggest organizations in thehistory of Christendom
Protestant organizations BaptistProtestant organizations and
leading one of the leadingchurches in your region?
Now, how do we get to thePastor Paul?
Now, what is the journey intothe space of full-time ministry

(01:03:40):
and the educational component?
And we can't ignore the factthat you're one of God's most
gifted preachers how does thatdevelopment take place as well?

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
most gifted preachers .
How does that development takeplace as well?
Yeah, I think just the firstthing is I did not know where
God was taking me to.
I did not know my gifts, butthere are people that God would

(01:04:15):
send into your life as a youngperson, our youth leaders.
One man he's also gone to bethe Lord came to me and kind of
like, make me aware that youknow what, you have this gift in
you.
And he started to coach me andwhenever there's something
that's happening within theyouth, he will take me, you know

(01:04:36):
, says you do this, you know youlead this, you do that.
And I was wondering, because Iwas just seeing myself as a, you
know, a bed bench.
All what I loved was preaching,you know, if I had an
opportunity to tell somebodyabout Jesus, that's what I loved
, but not to be in the frontseat.
And so he led me, you knowgraciously, to see and realize

(01:04:59):
my gifts.
And at the time I was still aschool teacher and so, and I was
resisting god's calling.
Firstly, I did not know thatgod had called me, but when I,
when I started to realize god iscalling me, I began to resist
it.
But god used ways of convincingme and really showing me that

(01:05:29):
he has called me.
I was at a high school teaching,and this fellow who's belonged
to it's a Christian church, butit's more cultic like Came and
said to me look, man, god hascalled you.
You are causing trouble for ushere.
You're preaching to us, you'remaking the school to be so

(01:05:50):
uncomfortable People are talkingabout God more than they talk
about.
And he said to me God hascalled you.
And I just said God, if you cantalk through this man, there's
something.
So I had to make arrangementwith God.
So I went for training and Icame back.
I said this church, that I saidwe've planted small church and

(01:06:10):
God moved me to another placebecause God wanted to show me
that I've called you.
Teachers' Christian movement,students' Christian movement.
I was pastoring a second orfour or five churches.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
You pastored five churches yeah, five branches.
At that time you were on yoursecond church.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
Now, yeah, so I've left this church and I've gone
to this place.
So I have my church and Istarted this one.
So, there, this church, andI've gone to this place, so I
have my church and I startedthis one.
So there were two and I wasasked by this one to take care
of them, and this one gave birthto another one.
So I have to take care of thisone and also have this one.
So I used to move around.
So you, pastor, five churchessimultaneously.
Yeah, simultaneously.

(01:07:04):
So it's a circuit system.
But God is helping because I'mraising preachers.
You know that join me and I'mdoing well in teaching.
You know the school is helpingabout my work, the students love
me.
But then my convention neededto start a Bible school.

(01:07:29):
They didn't know how to do it.
They got somebody who startedbut said to them you have to pay
me more money.
And they could not.
And so this other pastor cameto me and said look, god's
finger is on you.
You must go and start thatBible college from zero.

(01:07:50):
And that was my journey.
So I went, started this Biblecollege.
It grew until today it's stillthere.
It's our Bible college, theBaptist Convention College.
We're training ministers andfrom there they to move me.
Now, because it became such asuccessful project that we

(01:08:11):
started with only 20 books witha budget of $50.
And within two years we had17,000 books with lecturers, and
this thing was just one of thebest projects they've conducted
and it's still going today.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
Oh yeah, Are you a board member now?

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
No, they've called me back.
I'm the best projects.
It's still going today.
Oh yeah, are you a board membernow?
No, they've called me back.
I'm the interim principal.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
Interim principal President for us.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Yeah, still interim principal.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
And where's it?

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
located.
It's outside Soweto.
It used to be in Soweto forquite a long time.
Now we've moved it to ourconvention center, which is just
outside Soweto.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
And when you say we what convention center is that
the.
Baptist Convention of SouthAfrica Baptist.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Convention of South Africa.
Yeah, that college belongs tothe convention.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
That's a solely African movement, that's not
connected to the United States.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
So that's when the convention, some of the
convention leaders said actuallythe one who was the incumbent
general secretary said look, I'mleaving.
He was coming here.
Actually, his wife is still inCalifornia, desmond Hoffmeister,
he has passed on to the Lord.
They said to me I'm leaving theoffice and I don't see any
other one to succeed mesuccessfully.

(01:09:21):
But you, we've seen what you'vedone.
And there was resistance.
Of course People didn't want me.
I'm'm an outsider, kind of like, I'm not raised within their
ranks and all that regionalranks of the convention
convention itself these who'sthe children?
who who come from the familiesof pastas?
Or these men guys who are veryfamous?

(01:09:43):
I'm not famous, I'm not known.
I'm coming from the, you knowfrom the margin.
Yeah, from the small village.
Nobody knows this guy.
And then they refused me, youknow, to be general secretary.
I said, okay, I'm happy, I'mdoing the work here at the
college, I'm training leadersfor you.
But ultimately the guy who camein failed decimally.

(01:10:04):
Within four months Faileddecimally and so they had to
bring me in.
So when I became the generalsecretary of the convention, at
the time I was already connectedthrough the college to the
Baptist World Alliance, the AllAfrica.
It was then when I was servedas general secretary.
Then I became very active inthe World Alliance, very active

(01:10:25):
in the All Africa BaptistFellowship, active in the World
Alliance, very active in the AllAfrica Baptist Fellowship.
2006 elected president of AllAfrica, served there and then
served the World Alliance.
So that's my path, in short ofcoming from the village.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
In short, getting to the World Baptist Alliance from
the village, to the role as thepresident of this Bible college
people hearing about it givingthese sub-positions in the World
Baptist Alliance ultimatelyleads you to be the president of
the whole thing.
What about your pastoraljourney?
Pastoral journey, yeah.
How long have you been at PenYoselem?

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
I started Pen Yoselem in 2001.
2001.
Yeah, we started Pen Yel Selimin 2001.
2001.
Yeah, we started Pen Yel Selimfrom scratch.
There was no church in theBaptist church in the area.
There was no black church inthe area when I came in 2000.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
And you initially said that you weren't allowed to
live in Pretoria.
Oh yeah, no, no, no On thedeath switch.

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
No, no, no, the switch came after 1994 at the
end of the apartheid.
See the area where Penyel Salemis that used to be the
stronghold of the KKK of theSouth African version of.
KKK.
Wow, the most vicious, racist,hateful people used to live

(01:11:45):
there.
So, as a black person, you'd bebeaten to go and live there.
So when apartheid ended, blackpeople, folks had to move there.
We moved there in 1996.
And I was the general secretary, I was the principal of the
college at the time and focus atthe college.

(01:12:05):
So we realized there was nochurch.
We used to hold prayer meetingsthen the budget was growing,
you know whole, just primemeetings and people were just
really.
We discover that one is aChristian, that one and ended up
really being a good size and westarted this fellowship and
2001 we launched pain else alimb, baptist church.
Wow, yep, still strong to thisday.

(01:12:26):
Strong, still going strong tothis day.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
You have your own location that you are purchasing
from Dutch people.
So not only are you in an area,that was habitated by KKK, but
you're worshiping in a spacethat were from Afrikaners, Dutch
, who came over in thecolonization.
Yeah, as you see yourselfdeveloping in ministry at this

(01:12:50):
present state and I hear youtalk about people who have
impacted your life, no longerhere as the seasons of life
which, for all of us, aretransitioning and transitioning
what do you see as your passions?
What are some of the thingsthat keep you up at night as it
relates to ministry?

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Yeah, besides that, I would want to see really
Penniless Salem Baptist Churchgetting stable with its program.
We want to make sure that ourmission is strong in the area.
That's one thing you know.
To make sure that our missionis strong in the area, that's
one thing you know.
Once we get done with thepayment, we're going to really

(01:13:34):
go full steam in expanding ourmission in the area because, as
you've seen, you've visited thechurch, those young people, most
of them that you've seen theirparents are not members of the
church.
Those young people come on theirown, invited by our own young
people.
There's so many of them.

(01:13:55):
I mean, after the pandemic wethought we've lost so many young
people, they will no longercoming, and now that everything
is over, we're back.
I was shocked because we had toseparate the young adults from
the young people, and the youngpeople are so many now.

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
Why do you think that's the case?

Speaker 2 (01:14:20):
Somehow, our church attracts young people and we
have a very strong children'sministry and some of these young
people come through thechildren's ministry and then
they invite their friends andjust come to our church.
It's a cool church.
Like this weekend they have aworship night which was just

(01:14:41):
young people worshiping.
So we try to really beaccommodating to young people.
But I want to do more.
I want to do more.
I want to see Penny and Salemhave run what I call Friday
nights or Saturday nights foryoung people, you know, where we

(01:15:03):
can invite them to come andwatch a movie together, where we
can watch them, just to comeinto a space where they can just
talk, and so I want to seethose things really happening.
And I have youth and youngadults who have shared the same
vision Wow and they want toreally see young people loving

(01:15:25):
the space but being impacted andinfluenced by the gospel and
through the minister of PenielSalem, and so, yeah, that's what
we want to see doing and that'sone that keeps me up at night.
The second thing is I have thisdeep passion for leadership
development.
Actually, I have taken it uponmyself on my own.

(01:15:47):
My convention is stillresisting.
I'm doing leadership trainingand my convention.
I wish they could buy into itbecause I feel that we need to
be.
I said, you know, we need to bevery deliberate in developing

(01:16:08):
leaders.
You look for them, you findthem, you identify them, like I
was identified and toldsomething.
There's something in you and sowe can develop leaders that can
become, you know, impactful inthe community.
That can become, you know,impactful in the community.

(01:16:29):
And looking at the leaders thatare coming through my church,
I'm thankful to God that in my,when we talk about the church
board, I have several youngadults in the church board Wow,
and that for me, it's good.
I have young people who sit withus in the church board Wow, and

(01:16:50):
that for me, it's good.
I have young people who sitwith us in the church board and
they can tell me, pastor, if youwant us to be part of this,
don't do that, do this way.
And I listen carefully and I'veseen and they've come to me and
said, for example, we want totake over this ministry and I
said, okay, let me see what youcan give.

(01:17:13):
And I've seen them doing welland I want to see that, for me,
would be my focus as I moveforward, to develop young people
, to develop leaders and traineven our current pastors.

Speaker 1 (01:17:30):
That's amazing as you think about the landscape of
South Africa, socioeconomically,politically.
What are some of the challengesthat are taking place and how
does those challenges impactministry?

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
that are taking place and how does those challenges
impact ministry?
One big thing you know is thatI wish South Africa could
realize that we are living inthe technological era and that
the government will do all inits power and resources that are
available to make sure thatSouth Africa has access to

(01:18:11):
internet connection the whole ofSouth Africa.
I'll tell you what today,education has gone virtual.
You need to sit in your officeand you can reach out to your
students.
I can't do it, you know I sit.
I want to connect with mystudents on Zoom.
They connect and after fiveminutes there were 60 of them.

(01:18:33):
After five minutes I'm leftwith five and I ask them and
then they send messages.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
As far as now.

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
As far as now.
So for me, that's one thingthat really is a challenge for
the country to do, and if we canovercome that, it's going to
bring a huge, huge change in ourdevelopment as a country, you
know, and empowering people,because then education will be

(01:19:02):
accessible.
People don't need to travel to,you know, to be in a certain
space, but they can alwaysaccess it?

Speaker 1 (01:19:08):
Is that South Africa as a whole, as a country, or is
that just a region of SouthAfrica where you, minister
Pretoro, johannesburg area?

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
No, it's the whole of South Africa.
There are certain areas thateven your network just for your
cell phone, it's so difficult,it won't work.
Wow, it won't work.
It's so difficult, it won'twork.
Wow, you know, people tell youif they have to make a call they
need to drive or walk to acertain place where the network
Wow, it's good.

Speaker 1 (01:19:39):
So that for me, it's one of the— Taking up with the
technology, and that's impactedyour ministry.
Yeah, back to South Africa.
It's made up of nine differentI think it's territories.
You call them, yeah, provinces,providences, yeah, provinces.
What are those nine providencesand what are the distinctions
of them?

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
Yeah, our provinces.
You'd start with the mostpopular one Hauteng, a place of
gold.
That's where Pretoria andJohannesburg are.
Place of gold, that's wherePretoria and Johannesburg are.
Up north is Limpopo, next toZimbabwe, in the east, in
Pumalanga, and thenKwaZulu-Natal.
Eastern Cape, western Cape,northern Cape, northwest

(01:20:22):
Province.
Oh wow, that's right, those areprovinces.

Speaker 1 (01:20:25):
And those provinces.
They're made up of tribes.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
No those provinces are provinces that are
demarcated politically foradministration.
So they're like our states,they're like your state.
They have their own stategovernments.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:20:43):
Yeah, those are like your states, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
Is there a central figure over all of South Africa?
The monarch Mandela, the officehe held, president of South
Africa, that's over all the nineprovinces.

Speaker 2 (01:20:57):
Yeah, our government is organized almost like yours.
You have your state Actually,you have your local government,
which is your governors Actually, you have your local government
, which is your governors wecall them local government.
And then you have your province, your state, and you have your
federal, which is we call itnational government, national,
government, and that's whatNelson Mandela was yeah, so

(01:21:22):
Mandela was the president of thewhole country, and then you
have premiers who preside overprovinces, and then you have
mayors who preside over metros.

Speaker 1 (01:21:31):
Is most of those black Africana mix.

Speaker 2 (01:21:36):
No, predominantly black.
There's no premiers Africana.

Speaker 1 (01:21:43):
no, so politically there has been that?

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
No, there is one Western Cape, western Cape yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:48):
But politically, blacks have established
themselves.
There's still that economicstruggle, yeah, yeah.
And what's the strongholdeconomically?
Is that over certain naturalresources?
Is that over corporations, realestate?
What is it that's causing theeconomic instability not to take
place?
Equality, I should say.

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
Yeah, the equality starts.
Start with the land, landownership.
Land ownership, you know thewhites are still.
They own our big farmersfarming area I mean huge, these
farming areas which bringsbillions of rents into the
countries under the hands ofwhites.
Okay, and then you go to themining.

(01:22:31):
The mining it's in the hands ofbig corporates.
Only one guy two that I know,black guys who own mines only
two, but the rest it'sAnglo-American, you know, still
dominant.

Speaker 1 (01:22:49):
And.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
DPR, which is poor and Africa.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):
So some of those are Americans that own it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:55):
Yeah, Anglo-American has been there forever.
I mean, they've been theremining diamonds forever, Wow,
and so?
And then you have yourproduction.
Your industry is still led by.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
What's the role that tribes play?

Speaker 2 (01:23:19):
You see, that's one thing that's a bit difficult
because your king and yourchiefs, they don't have so much
power, figurative more.
Yeah, it's only few of them whoparticipate in the economy,
like the one where there's achief whose land is in the

(01:23:45):
platinum belt, so they were ableto get royalties from the
mining companies in the platinumbelt.
That brings money into theroyal family, but also that
would mean you need a very wisechief who's going to say where

(01:24:06):
do we put the investments.
So not all of them really knowhow to do that and so it end up
money.
Ending that process might makemoney to end up in the pockets
of few people instead ofdeveloping the community as a
chief is a king and a king is achief.

Speaker 1 (01:24:24):
Those are interchangeable terms.
No kings are superior overchiefs.
And the chief is the king andthe king is the chief.

Speaker 2 (01:24:27):
Those are interchangeable terms.
No, kings are superior overchiefs.
Okay, yeah, and like when thecolonial government took over
during the colonial era, whathappened is that the British
monarch did not want to competewith anyone in status, so they

(01:24:52):
changed the title of some of ourkings to become chiefs, which
is less in status.

Speaker 1 (01:25:00):
What are the dominant tribes in South Africa?

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):
The bigger tribes in South Africa's numbers are
concerned is Zulu and Khorsas.
Zulu and Khorsas, yeah, andthen they have kings, and then
you have what I'm not certainwhether the South Northern Sotho

(01:25:25):
they they I think they arenothing suit to also will be the
third.
Maybe they have their ownchallenge that they've got a lot
of chiefs and their King isunable to take the throne
because they fighting over there.

Speaker 1 (01:25:44):
Zuluulu Zulu Kosha.
And then you said the SuhuNorthern Suthu, suthu yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
Northern.
Suthu, and then you have thesmaller ones.

Speaker 1 (01:25:55):
Then there's a lot of more smaller ones that are and
these tribes have their owndialect and language as well.
Oh, yeah, oh yeah, yeah those.

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):
But the yeah, oh yeah , oh, yeah, yeah those.
But the good thing is that allof those languages are now
official languages in ourcountry.
Oh, they are official languagesoh yeah, they're official
languages, so the governmentdocuments can be written in any
of those languages.

Speaker 1 (01:26:17):
Notice me going to South Africa, I always notice
that someone can be speaking theSouth African language and then
go into English in the middleof the sentence and go back and
forth.
Is that because they know somany languages, so many dialects
, so many tribal versions of thelanguage?

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's because of that and we like
doing it, but at times itaffects our.
It affects actually ourchildren's knowledge of our
language.
Okay.
They cannot finish a sentencein a local language, especially
these younger ones.
You know they'll always put anEnglish word because they don't

(01:26:54):
know what it means in the locallanguage.
You know.
So just yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
Got you, got you.
What are some things on yourheart as we close out?
Some of the information youcould tell us about where the
church is.
Address there may be somebodylistening that's going to head
down to South Africa with us.
I know you'll be at IC3 inHouston in April.
You come to that every year.

(01:27:19):
We do IC3 South Africa everyyear in September.
Petora, you are looking to payoff your building there and
certainly you can reach out toSinai Church and let us know how
you want to support that.
We are a supporter of thathistorically and would love to

(01:27:40):
allocate those funds anddesignate those funds and get
those there.
If you want to be a supporterof that, how is?
What are some of the otherthings that you may be working
on now?

Speaker 2 (01:27:52):
Yeah well, Peniel Salem Baptist Church.
As Pastor George, you've saidthat God has blessed us with a
magnificent building, thebeautiful campus that you
visited twice.
Now it's in Pretoria, in EastLane.
It's 69 Swan Street, and we arethankful to God.

(01:28:14):
We are very, very thankful toGod.
It's a witness to prayer.
Yeah, on social media, yeah andwe at the moment we are running
our Facebook page Peniel Salem.
At the moment we are runningour Facebook page Peniel Salem.
If you go to Peniel SalemBaptist Church you will surely
get to our and you'll see what'shappening.

(01:28:35):
You'll see these young peopleI'm talking about and you know
and you can watch our, some ofour services that are on that
page.
Yes, and we are excited and wewant to see ourselves really

(01:29:00):
growing our ministry, impactinglife.
The next thing that we are doingnow, even as I speak, that we
are now venturing into helpingwith education, we are going to
open what we call a homeworkcenter.
We have received a donation ofsecond-hand computers, laptops,

(01:29:21):
and we're going to set up those.
We're going to set up theinternet connection so that the
children in the area we have twoprimary schools, three high
schools in the area, so we'regoing to make that available so
that when kids come from schoolthey can come into the place,

(01:29:44):
the classroom, sit there, dotheir research, write their
homework, because most of thework that they do, some of it,
require them to go on internet,do some, you know, research and
in South Africa not every familyhas a luxury of having a
computer.
Wow.
And so we want to make thatavailable and so that kids can

(01:30:09):
just come into a safe space andnot having to go to an internet
cafe.
You know they go to internetcafe and sometimes you know
these places are not safe forchildren.
So there are people who prey onkids when they go to these
places.
So we want to make thatministry available to our

(01:30:35):
children and then we'll developit to Saturday classes where we
want to teach math and scienceand because we have the good
thing that we have space and weare thankful to God for that.

Speaker 1 (01:30:49):
Thank you so much, pastor Paul, for being with us
once again preaching to ourchurch on Sunday, sticking over
to do this podcast with us.
Hopefully those who arelistening will understand the
continent and its nuances alittle bit better specifically
the Southern region, and then toget a better grasp of your

(01:31:10):
story.
It was such an amazing story andtestimony of God's grace and
providence in your life and thesovereign will that he's yet
still using to infuse Christ andto not just Pretoria and
Johannesburg, but all of SouthAfrica, all of the southern
region of Africa, all of Africaand across the world, and we

(01:31:34):
praise God for you.
Brother, thanks for coming andthank you for listening to
Nuance Conversation.
Make sure that you check us outon all our digital platforms
for upcoming shows and check outpast interviews.
God bless you.
We're out.