The Inspiring Ministry Journey of Dr. George Parks: Faith, Community, and Leadership

Have you ever wondered how a humble beginning can shape a powerful ministry? Join us for a captivating conversation with Dr. George Parks, a revered pastor whose journey from Tennessee and Ohio to influential ministry roles is nothing short of inspiring. At just 14, Dr. Parks felt a profound calling to preach, driven by his admiration for Martin Luther King Jr. We kick things off with a light-hearted debate between two friends and pastors, both named George, before diving into John MacArthur's controversial comments on King's legacy. Through this, we uncover the human complexities of historical figures and the selective application of grace within some evangelical circles.

Dr. Parks' narrative is deeply rooted in the black tradition of storytelling and celebratory preaching. We traverse his rich experiences from his formative years under the mentorship of Jerry Black and Reverend Dr. Maurice Watson, to his educational journey at Vanderbilt Divinity and Howard University. Learn about his strategic balance of celebratory preaching with substantial lessons and the significance of staying connected to local churches. Reflect on his ministry at Meridian Hill Baptist Church and Riverside Missionary Baptist Church, understanding the vital role of relationships and practical ministry in his effective leadership.

Our conversation extends to the complexities of the African-American middle-class church and the evolving dynamics of financial literacy, legacy building, and entrepreneurship within the community. Dr. Parks shares his experiences navigating political and social issues, particularly during election seasons, while emphasizing a balanced, theologically informed approach. We also discuss the eclectic influences shaping his ministry, the importance of celebration and hope in sermons, and the enriching value of diverse perspectives. This episode is a treasure trove of personal stories and critical insights into faith, community, and leadership—don’t miss out!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good day.
Welcome to another episode ofNuance Conversation.
This podcast is meant to betransparent, to be open, to be
honest and to be empathetic.
I am the creator and curatorand host of this podcast and I'm
with today, one that it wouldbe offensive to call a friend.
He's a brother beloved and hehas a great first name.

(00:21):
His name is Dr George Parks andhe is the bad George.
I am the good George, despitewhat he's going to say when he
gets his chance to speak.
But before we start, we got toswear a man to make sure,
because I hear a nuancedconversations.
We don't, we don't escapeanything we hear.
We are open, we're honest,we're transparent, we're

(00:42):
empathetic and we're intelligent, and we have the perfect guest
for that today.
Just go ahead and raise yourhand and swear that you will
abide by uh, the rules.
He's not gonna do it in thegroup.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Watch this y'all, I don't know if I'm gonna do that,
yeah, yeah, he's gonna bye-bye.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
He swore it in.
Ladies and gentlemen, it don'tmatter what that was good enough
.
I didn't think we're gonna getthat far, uh, because when you
get, uh, preachers and pastorsof this caliber, they really
don't feel that they have to doanything.
But just you know, walk in theaura of their greatness will
just flow through what up bro,how you feeling today?

Speaker 2 (01:14):
man, I am delighted and thank you for having me on,
but for the record, I want thewhole world to know that I am
the good George.
Let the world know.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
I'm happy to be with you.
A tree is known by the fruitsof the bear, so we'll just leave
it just like that.
We'll just leave it.
We'll just leave it just likethat.
Tell us a little bit aboutwhere you're from, your walk
with Christ and, of course, justa summarization of your journey
into ministry and pastor.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Summarize, it's very eclectic Born in Nashville,
tennessee, to my parents, theywere married.
My mom was 18.
My dad was 19.
I came two years later.
We moved from Nashville,tennessee, to Dayton, ohio, from
age arm baby to nine.
Then we moved to Cleveland Ohio, cleveland Ohio, Cleveland,
ohio.
My dad a pastor at a church inDayton in Cleveland and, uh, I

(02:10):
confess my hope in Jesus Christ.
At five years old you said yourdad pastor in Cleveland.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Ohio and Cleveland Ohio, Same time.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
No, first nine years and Dayton and Cleveland Once we
.
Once I turned nine, we moved tocleveland, got you and uh now
it's my calling to preach.
Grew up in cleveland, evenwhile preaching ran track in
high school.
How old were you when youannounced your call to preach?
I was 14 years old, 14, 14years old, uh ran track.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
How was that?
Um 14 you're a preacher, you'rein high school.
Um how was that?

Speaker 2 (02:44):
it was cool, it was great.
Uh, I never felt odd, too odd,about there's a difference.
People treat you a tad bitdifferent because you wear suits
to school I did not wear suitsto school, but, uh, I kind of
categorized my call.
There's a book called theirresistible urge by william
Myers.
I was no ski hero.
I was 14.

(03:05):
I hadn't done anything, Ihadn't experienced much, but I
did feel this overwhelming,irresistible urge to give my
life and heart completely overto God.
Growing up as a kid, preacherswas always my heroes.
I always had a deep fascinationwith Martin Luther King as a
kid and to this day a heavyfollower of King, and that's

(03:27):
kind of how my ministry began inthe Midwest Cleveland Ohio.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah, let's talk about that era, let's talk about
King for a second and thenwe'll go back to that.
I jump around, trust me we'llpick back up because it was
lately in the news around, buttrust me, we'll pick back up
Because it was lately in thenews.
We hear nuanced conversationsabout religion, politics, social
norms and also pop culture, andrecently John MacArthur had

(04:01):
some things disperse and to sayabout King, we think about
King'sge.
And to say about King, we thinkabout King's legacy.
And you think about some of thetension that comes into, all
that comes with everybody.
Nuance, absolutely, how do, howdo you, how did you feel when
you heard those statements ofhim?
Denying that King is in heavenand things of that nature is

(04:25):
part for the course.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
To say that MacArthur's a bigot would be an
understatement.
Do you want my?

Speaker 1 (04:30):
honest response on that.
Yeah, well.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Brother MacArthur is unique.
I think he's selective in hisreading of scripture and we
can't say that we don't have aheaven or hell to put anyone in.
I think also we have to look atKing historically.
Jonathan Jiggs' book King andhe frames that he wrote that

(04:59):
book because we spend too muchtime making heroes and also we
have to consider the times.
I think King was a man of histime and he's like anyone else
that we read in scripture.
If these things are true, he'sundeniably human and I think we

(05:20):
have to remember that.
And I don't think we have toremember that and I don't think
we have to reject that.
However, I do thinkevangelicals, that breed of
evangelicals, they don't live byreally grace, they live by
survival of the slickest, theylive by the code of if you don't
get caught, you're moral.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah, and you know what's interesting about that.
When I listened to the clipthat they pulled up, I didn't
give it too much of my energy,because, been there, done that,
we've heard these things foryears and I think we give what
we give people too much aresponse.
We give them legitimize theirplatform indirectly, and I know

(06:01):
why people do it.
You know, dr Davis, he did hisletter, I signed that and things
of that nature, but I stillfeel as if it gives them a sense
of legitimacy when you do thatand you may say, oh, you got to
legitimize because his platformis following things of that
nature.
No, you don't.
However, it was a 1956 sermon,it was.

(06:25):
I don't even think Kingunderstood what he was saying.
It was this Plato-ism You'velearned, you're going to school,
I think we've all been there.
You're trying to say somethingthat's deep and profound and I
think, if you know God, king'sdad, if you know the men that
were around him, somebody pulledhis coat, somebody said X, y, z

(06:49):
.
You never heard it again andobviously through his life and
through his works and the fruitthat he bears bears witness to
the fact that he has some thatthat orthodox in his faith
existed and developed duringtime, which develops in all of
us.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Well, I think we can never deny this.
Those who critique King and Iwould say, if you want to
evaluate someone, at least be onpar with them we always
highlight King simply as a civilrights leader, right, and we
kind of marginalize him being apreacher.
But the other piece that weconstantly marginalize King had

(07:27):
a PhD in systematic theology.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
And King also was denied acceptance to Dallas
Theological Seminary, whichwould have developed his.
All of that's developed.
I remember the first timesomebody asked me was Jesus
Christ, all man and all God.
I'm like we didn't deal withthis at Sunday school.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
So I don't think he totally abandoned orthodoxy and
we could all take one thing andtry to build a straw house.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah yeah, you got to look at it holistically.
To do that start on the premisethat this was a great man.
That is behind the core of theAmerican superpower right now.
The ideology of civil rights,the concept of black people are

(08:15):
fighting for freedom, even goingall the way down to South
Africa all the way across theworld.
His impact was there.
So you can have theseconversations.
They need to be nuanced, theyneed to be contextualized, in
both history and preaching andperspective, and I think all of
us.
If you look back at somethingwe wrote or said or preach, it

(08:38):
has hints of things like that'snot right, but there's always
the piece we have to.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Also, we have to be very mindful of taking critique
from individuals who have noreal respect or regard for our
culture.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Absolutely, or any culture besides their own.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
And that goes to gender, class and race and sex.
Yeah, gender does.
Oh yeah, it's early in the dayand race and sex.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, gender does.
Oh yeah, pardon me, it's earlyin the day and another thing.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
So you're influenced by King.
Yes, Home life is your dad yourhero, my dad.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yes, very much so.
Preacher, pastor, alsoentrepreneur.
Yes, very much so.
Preacher, pastor, alsoentrepreneur.
Yes, mother was in the home.
I was fortunate I don't call itblessed, I'm just fortunate to
have mother and father in thehome.
My father exposed me to thebest of life that he could
expose me to and he didn't holdanything back from me.
So I am deeply grateful for theabiding presence of my father

(09:47):
to my life exposure.
A lot of my faith and pastoraltheology was kind of mended in
my relationship with my mother,which unfortunately, I don't say
.
Just the lessons of how Iendeavor to relate to people,
even the things that I taketoward preaching.
I leaned on, of course, thetechnical things from my father,

(10:07):
just being transportable andrelatable for my mother.
Mother was a singer choir,choir director Was my Sunday
school teacher all the way up toprobably about middle school.
So each time I got promoted shewas promoted.
So shaped much of my biblicalunderstanding and worship.
Siblings.
I have one brother, jeremiahParks, dr Jeremiah Parks.

(10:30):
He's a pastor in Orangeboro,kentucky.
He's 10 years younger than me,so he's 30 years old and the
Lord has really blessed him andhe's a good, great preacher in
his own right.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
High school what's after high?

Speaker 2 (10:46):
school.
Went to a Lutheran high school,private high school.
Then I— oh, you went to privateschool, went to private school.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
That explains a lot yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
But I went to public school, lutheran high school,
east.
Then I was accepted.
I was struggling between that.
I could have went to a Lutherancollege, but I opted to go to
American Baptist College inNashville, tennessee.
Oh, the Holy Hill, which I'mvery proud of, spent three years
there, so a member of WatsonGrove Baptist Church while I was

(11:16):
there under Curtis Goodwin.
Ok, ok, many people may notknow his name, but very much
responsible for the maturationof many now middle aged pastors.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, his name came to our conversation with Dr
Breonna's Mitchell.
Yes, yeah, you're there inNashville.
How is that?
Tell us a little bit about thehistory of American Baptist
College.
Yes, great school establishedin 1924.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
We celebrate 100 years next year and it's a great
school for preachers, undergrad, open enrollment institutions
so many individuals who wouldnot get the opportunity to go to
college.
They receive that opportunityat American Baptist College.
Individuals like Julia ScruggsJohn Lewis started at American

(12:11):
Baptist College Dr BernardLafayette, james Beville
individuals, those likes JohnRouse the list goes on and on.
Browness, mitchell, walterMalone the list goes on and on
and on of preachers, individualswho have shaped the faith life
out of American Baptist College,now with a strong social

(12:32):
justice emphasis, has been agreat producer for the black
church.
You finished there, yes.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
I finished Finished in three years.
Yeah, that's good.
I'm so grateful.
Yeah, yeah, smart man, I did goto class private school and
then I just came in three years.
What, what is what is happeningto you as a person there?
What's what's developing themost, would you say, in those
three years?
Is it the discipline of study?

(12:58):
It is the love and the craftingof sermons, um, is it the, the
pull towards being a husband anda father?
What's happening?

Speaker 2 (13:08):
You can get those three years, all of those things
, the discipline of study,growing as a person.
I would hope I met who now ismy wife, joy, and a deep,
abiding love for the church Ithink I discovered while at
American Baptist Church I wantedlove for the church.
I think I I discovered while atAmerican Baptist church I
wanted to serve the church.
Why I have?

(13:29):
No, I have a huge regard forthose who take the route of
scholarship, but I knew withouta shadow of a doubt that I would
serve the local church.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Who is your other preaching?
Heroes and mentors, as beingdeveloped during this time as
well.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
My heroes or who was being developed with me?
Who?

Speaker 1 (13:49):
are being developed as it relates to mentors.
Who are my mentors?
Who are you learning from afar?
Yes, who are you learning fromintimately?
I?

Speaker 2 (13:57):
can give you some immediately.
While locally there was PastorCurtis Goodwin, my pastor,
excellent pastor, no better.
Pastor James Tex Thomaspreaching, of course, my father
and a name that many peopledon't know, pastor Darrell
Drumwright, who was one of myprofessors at American Baptist

(14:20):
College he's a graduate fromHarvard University was the
assistant to the bishop at amega church there, temple Church
, which he ended up becoming thepastor.
Bishop Graves transitioned JoeWalker.
I'm having all of these BishopJoseph Walker.
I'm having all of theseexposures while I'm in Nashville
all at the same time.

(14:41):
Okay, and I got reallyintroduced to expository
preaching while I was inNashville, not necessarily at
American Baptist.
How did you get introduced toit?
I was always taught to bebiblical.
I had a friend named CedricCheatham who was one of the
silent influences in my life.
We talked preaching every day,I know for 10 years from school,

(15:04):
and we modeled that listeningto preachers life.
We talk preaching every day, Iknow for 10 years from school
and, and we modeled thatlistening to preachers and a
gentleman named by the name ofJoe and Ivy really introduced me
to the fundamentals of abiblical preacher.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
What about from a distance?
Who are the?
Who are the men and women thatyou are hearing from a distance,
that are developing into heroes, models, mentors?

Speaker 2 (15:27):
We were listening first of all to everybody.
Okay, Some people we probablyshouldn't have been listening to
, but I would say Feel free toshare those I'll be the people
who really positively influenceOne, two people.
Now this is.
They are worlds apart butthey're from the same state.
Jerry Black, love his abilityto narrate and just tell the

(15:51):
story, absolutely, this hugecelebratory rooted in the black
tradition of pain.
So I grew up listening to hiscassette tapes.
I wanted to be Jerry Black.
Listening to his cassette tapes, I wanted to be Jerry Black.
And who influenced my burningto grow to be a preacher?

(16:12):
In death?
Without a doubt, the ReverendDr Maurice Watson.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, he'severything.
He's heart, mind, transportablespirit.
And what I've alwaysappreciated about Dr Watson was
you know, some preachers, theypreach and they're good

(16:32):
preachers, they're greatpreachers, but sometimes they
turn it on and off at particularplaces and menus.
But one thing I've always beendeeply moved by no matter where
I've seen Dr Watson, I alwaysfelt that the same preacher was
showing up Consistency.
Oh gosh, I mean and to this dayI mean one of his greatest.
Well, I think one of thegreatest things that people will

(16:54):
have to write about Dr Watsonis his consistency as a preacher
.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Right, I agree with that wholeheartedly.
You're developing what's afterABC you're developing.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
What's after?
What's after abc?
After abc, I had a deep desireto go to vanderbilt divinity.
I had a professor who did notturn in the letter of
recommendation and then asked medo you think that you're
vanderbilt material?
So basically that was his wayof him saying that he felt that
I was not rendered materialAbsolutely.
So I ended up going to Howard,which now, in hindsight, it was

(17:29):
the providence of God.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Right.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Darrell Jermry was really pro me leaving Nashville.
He said East Coast will giveyou some exposures that staying
in Nashville would not.
And I had three wonderful,remarkable years at Howard of
learning critical thinking.
It was just great.
And to be in the nation'scapital.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
Let's go back to something you said about
preachers.
You're listening to that.
You should not have beenlistening to.
We don't have to say their nameunless you want to.
That would be great for ourviewing and our ratings and our
numbers.
Unless you want to, that'd begreat for viewing and our
ratings and our numbers.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
But would you, bad George?
Y'all hear this.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Bad, bad, bad, bad George.
What was the style?
What was it that you say youshouldn't be listening to?
Was it because sometimes it'spositive?
Sometimes it's because you'retrying to mimic something that's
so great it's not reachable.
What is it that you say?

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Probably listening to preachers who were heavy
celebratory light on lesson, orwhat I like to deem those who
are simply exhibitionistpreachers.
What does that mean?
Well, I think you have to watchwith preaching, especially in
our tradition not simply oursbut with those that simply
showcase gifts, style, vocalgymnastics and vocality.

(18:56):
I think that can be very it'salluring but it can be very
toxic for impressionablepreachers.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
How did you yourself stay away from being the hooper,
the late-nighter?
I don't know if I did.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
You didn't.
I don't know if I did, but Ialways had a father that would
pull me on that and said youwant to be taken as a serious
preacher.
I think for a long time as aminister I was probably only
seen as, or deemed as, a hooper.
I would like to pray thatpeople see something a little

(19:40):
more than that.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
What is your parents saying when you're going to DC?
How did your mom and dad feelabout they were pro?

Speaker 2 (19:46):
They were pro.
It was good.
It was a great place for thecontinued growth.
I think when you're 18, 19 in achurch city and you have some
gifts, you know it can be easyfor you to stop growing, and DC
was another area for growth.
So I think God has always putme in areas where it has caused

(20:07):
me to intentionally grow.
Where'd you go?

Speaker 1 (20:08):
to church at out there.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
In DC, the Meridian Hill Baptist Church, 16th Street
, northwest Okay, right in theheart of DC, and I served the
Reverend Calvin Cage.
I served as his assistantpastor.
Wow, so that was a greatbut tobe in DC.
Everybody was coming GeorgeGregory, dr Watson, freddie

(20:33):
Haynes, dr West all of thesepeople were coming to DC and you
want to see like DC.
You have politics, power,public thinkers.
You're at Howard, you're at thecrossroads, you're at the
intersection of all of that, allthe colleges and universities,
and I was privileged to go toschool with Keelan Duke, jameson

(20:54):
Hunter, kalita Forbes, kenyatta, gilbert, who's known as a
preaching professor, now notedhome politician.
He was finishing his PhD and Iwas one of his first students
and I'm blessed.
I was blessed by that.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
What's after DC?

Speaker 2 (21:11):
After DC, I was called six months after
graduation to the RiversideMissionary Baptist Church.
What'd you say?
Yes, south side of Memphis,great historical church that
went through transition and Iwas privileged to follow one of
the nation's best preachers,kevin Brian Willis.

(21:32):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
So you're learning, you're going to school, you're
developing as a preacher, butyou keep mentioning about these
churches.
You were going to Watson Groveso you're not like, don't want
to be in church.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
I wanted to go to church.
I enjoy church.
I always felt that I was calledfor the church.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
I don't think, so it's important even though
you're in seminary, to beconnected to a local church?
Yes, because the danger is veryimportant.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
Because I think the danger is you can sit in
classrooms and all you know istheory, but you don't know the
practicality of how to servepeople.
So I believe one of thecontributing factors to any
level of success that I've hadin ministry is because I have
been deeply rooted and groundedin having relationship with
people and if you're going to doministry, it's people that

(22:24):
count.
Smart goes a long way.
It can enhance what you do, butI don't think it comes before
the love of people.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
When did you get married?

Speaker 2 (22:33):
in this I got married my middle year at Howard Okay,
my middle year at Howard.
Joy and I became married,stayed there about a year and a
half and then I got called toRiverside.
Why did you do that?
Why did you get married?
Because Mrs Parks is the bestthing that has ever happened to
me.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
The Lord knew.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
I needed some balance in my life.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes, sir, oh bless his name.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
No.
Joy has been a great help andlife partner, amen.
She has represented consistencyand a constant reminder for me
in my life for the things thatmatter, because you can get so
in ministry and whatever webelieve ministry success is is

(23:19):
attaining that, and joy isalways that level of what's
important.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
What family then work , that and joy is always that
level of what's important what,uh?
Family didn't work.
What um do you think um createdthis sense of social discipline
at such a young age, um to notjust pursue marriage but to
accomplish it and maintain it asyou have thus far?

(23:45):
Was it your parents?
Was it other mentors?
I would say parents.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
My parents had a marriage marriage like anybody
else's marriage, ups and downs.
I saw them stick through it, sothat was important to me.
I didn't realize how young Iwas getting married, so I
probably probably would havebeen a much better husband if I
was a bit older and had, uh,some different experiences.
But uh, the Lord is merciful.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, she moved to DC originally with you, not
originally.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Once we got married, we were, we were, uh, we were
probably the last of the classicuh letters and uh, once we got
married, we were probably thelast of the classic letters
talking, did not move in untilwe were married.
All of that it worked out.
The Lord was faithful.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
When did his children come into play About?

Speaker 2 (24:44):
10 months, a year after we had been here.
Still at Howard.
No, when I went to Riverside,when you went to Riverside, so
we had no children, it was justus.
So we had about a good twoyears of just Joy and I, and I
think that's very important ifpeople can manage to do that.
So we had some time of just us,enjoying us, and that was very
important.
And Trey came along.

(25:05):
Then, two years later, genesis,two years later, the twins Wow,
Praise God.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
man, you are there.
You're in this new church.
You're a new husband, newfather.
Your name is starting to ringin the preaching circles.
How are you navigating andprocessing all that at the time?
Are you processing it well?
Are you getting a little bigheaded?
What's going on?

Speaker 2 (25:35):
I don't know if I processed it well or not.
I think history somebody elsemaybe can speak to that.
The one thing I can say is Ihad an understanding of
itinerant preaching even beforepastoring, because as a young
boy preacher, I was alwayspreaching somewhere.
I had the opportunity to preachsomewhere.
Memphis was a new area.

(25:57):
I was given the opportunities.
I don't know if I balanced itall well, but I was very
grateful for it.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
What did you use to help you try to create balance,
or was you not?
You were just going?

Speaker 2 (26:12):
with the flow.
I think I was just going.
Oh, I was a young preacher, AllI know is.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
You get an opportunity, you go preach.
You go preach, try to kill thathouse.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
You preach, give your best preaching, Prayerfully.
They call you back.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
What's pastoring like now?
You're not the assistant pastoranymore.
You're not the assistant pastoranymore, you're a pastor.
You're preaching every Sunday.
You're dealing withAfrican-American church folks.
What's that like?

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Very loving church.
They probably should have putme out four or five times about
some of the things I've said,but it was good.
I had the blessing of being onstaff, of being on staff, and I
think being an assistant to thepastor gave me some experiences,
having a great circle ofpastors that would give me

(26:56):
honest advice.
So I've leaned heavily on thewisdom in my life.
So I can go down the list mydad, calvin Cage, dr Watson
those individuals have nevertold me something that was wrong
.
I can say that in my case.
I think people have to be verymindful of who they call on.

(27:16):
Melvin Charles Smith as well.
Right there, dr Melvin CharlesSmith.
Right there in Memphis,tennessee, where Darryl
Drumwright, I could always callthem and they would give me the
truth Like no, don't do that,that's silly or you are wrong.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
As you pastor, and things are happening in the
nation.
We talked about social justice,a little bit ABC.
What are some of the thingsthat stand out to you as pastor
that now I have to address?
Is it the funeral?
Is it 9-11?
Is it slain or some unarmedblack person, Black man, black
woman?
What is it that now is puttingyou in this moment of like oh,

(27:58):
this is real.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
I think American Baptist College always gave me
that and Howard.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
No, no, no, but what I'm asking is as a pastor now.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yes, that's what I'm back into.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
It gave me the heightened sensitivity.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yes, that's what I'm back into.
Okay, I got you Heightenedsensitivity, okay.
So when things are going on inthe world, I think it's
important, if the pastor hasthat capacity and that's their
bandwidth, to help thecongregation and their people to
understand.
What is God potentially sayingto us through this?
What is the biblical response?

(28:29):
What is our task as thinkingChristians that we don't have to
bury our head in the sand?
Trayvon Martin, how do werespond to a bad day, when
there's an election that wedidn't think that would go one
way and it went another way?
What party are you with as abeliever?

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Do you affiliate yourself with any party?

Speaker 2 (28:52):
I probably do, but I don't think any of the parties
right now are looking out forthe overall best interest.
So I think it's a best interestof people of color, of black
people.
Yeah, that's a much widerconversation.
I think that we need to beginto have but yeah, where do you

(29:13):
start that conversation?

Speaker 1 (29:14):
how do you deal with?

Speaker 2 (29:16):
I think black clergy needs to start having it, but we
have to make sure that we havethe capacity to talk about these
things beyond immediate andwhen you say immediate, what do
you?
Mean immediate, whatever we getfrom a particular party or our
conventional understandings.
And how does things look longterm for the benefit of

(29:40):
communities of color, because weblend in a lot with other
communities now?

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Is race still important?
In the context of America?
We had a mixed president, wehave so many families being
blended, we haveintersectionality between
genders and things of thatnature.
Is race something that weshould even be talking about?

Speaker 2 (30:03):
Why is that?
Because it's apparent we see itin housing Health Health Loans,
in housing Health Health Loans,how people are treated when we
go into a store travel.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, how do we address that as Christians, but
uniquely as African-AmericanChristians?

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, I think it's creating spaces in our churches
to have meaningful and neededconversations on, to have to

(30:52):
give people this knowledge andunderstanding of what it is to
be black christian in a dividedamerica.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
If you were counseling some past a pastor
that has to address that, whatare some of the things that you
will say stand out to it aslaced, the issues that are
perplexing black christianamericans today?
What issues, yeah, what advice?
Would you say like hey, getready, you're that are
perplexing black ChristianAmericans today.
What issues, yeah, what advice?
Would you say like, hey, getready, you're gonna have to deal
with this.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
You're gonna have to deal with You're gonna have to
get ready to deal with theerasing of the black middle
class, the idea of sexualitymost important the role of
scripture, the redefinition offamily.
Of course, always technology,ai, maybe those five.

(31:36):
Probably there's a lot moredeeper issues.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
I'm not a futurist but Maybe let's look at, when
you say the erasing of themiddle class, what does that
mean?
How do we combat that?

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I think the number onething mostly for, especially for
African Americans, we are waybelow, we're all the way at the
back.
We'll get, we'll get right.
So the main thing was forchurches, especially church, is
if you have what some middleclass, what members average
black church doesn't have a tonof rich members.

(32:08):
Churches, especially ifchurches became overly mobile,
is if you have what Some middleclass, what Members the average
black church doesn't have a tonof rich members if you have two
or three.
So when you have the erasing ofmiddle class, what does that
mean for people?

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Is middle class being erased, or is middle class that
has a Christian being beingerased, or is it both?
I think it's both.
So the middle class that doesexist around African-American
are steering away from thechurch, especially in certain
geographical places.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
What does it mean?
Because we spend so much timetrying to assimilate?
So, once I assimilate intoculture, do I need God?
What does that look like?
Which we do, because there aresome different complexities.
They're still human, they stillhave family, children,
struggles to sense the self.
They need God as a king andruler to help them to make sense

(32:57):
of life, to let their lifespeak in the words of a guy
named Parker or Palmer, and sothey need God.
But how do we, how do wepresent that?

Speaker 1 (33:10):
You're in the affluent area for
African-Americans, probably inthe country.
What are some of the thingsthat you're trying to do to
address this reality of the raceand middle class at
Metropolitan and we hadn't gotthere yet, but you're currently
at the Metropolitan BaptistChurch and I know in our
conversation you're've juststarted your first pastor at

(33:30):
Riverside.
We'll go through that a littlebit more in a second, but just
to just home in on this issue,what are some of the things that
you're doing currently to sortof tackle this notion of
embracing the black middle class?

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Creating great modes of transportation, of
communication, podcasts, thosethings where we have a captive
audience.
Two is start developingministries that help people at
the bottom level.
Financial literacy what doesthis mean?
To plan ahead, to preachsermons, to think biblically of

(34:06):
what it means to leave a legacyfor us not to be simply
consumers, but also how to enjoylife, but enjoy life in balance
.
So I was in an old commercialthat it was saying that how you
market to the African Americanis this need to be affirmed and
to be recognized.
So if I need to be recognized,we'll have more money on our

(34:30):
back than what we have in ourbank account yeah, yeah, so we
will.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
We have the tendency um, like any other group, um,
but uniquely for us in theamerican experience to see,
create, seek social affirmationthrough name brands and other
things.
That does not recycle the cashin our community, and so thus it

(34:57):
leaves us in this space wherewe're now defining life and
luxury as things that aredifferent from those that have
financial, psychological,financial security, such as what
you talked about.
You wear it on your back, youdrive it and you're not able to
go on a trip.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
I think about two of the greatest ways where we pass
on wealth is through homeownership and insurance.
So now we're backing away fromthose two things and we can't
even continue this, we can'teven start this idea of
generational wealth.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
If we're not doing those things, then also
entrepreneurship and business.
Yeah, so you got those threeareas of it.
Let's go back.
I know we're jumping, but,trust me, I'm, I'm, I'm
following.
You're at Riverside, you'renavigating Riverside, you're
navigating through the variousissues as pastor, your husband,

(35:54):
father, your husband, father.
You're gleaming from your timesat Howard, your times at ABC,
your times at both of thechurches Watson, grove.
And where was it?

Speaker 2 (36:05):
Sacrificial my dad's church.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
The Marien Hill in DC and this is on the media
context of there it is.
Things at Riverside are goinggreat.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Oh Lord, bless that church in a phenomenal way.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
So you left, though Left.
Yeah, what was going on withthat brother?

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Well, lord was blessing us in a huge way.
We were in a building project,getting ready to build a new
sanctuary.
But I felt and discerned mytime was up and I did not want
my ministry to plateau atbuilding a building.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Why does that feel like your time was up?
How did you discern thatfeeling?

Speaker 2 (36:51):
I just feel like I heard a person who I love dearly
and I heard a great group ofpeople that only referenced the
new facility as almost apromised land instead of as a
building, as a tool, and I don'tknow if I could overcome that

(37:12):
and at that time I thought somethings were needed.
The people never really foughtagainst me, but I know in order
to do that for a metaphor, someblood would be shed and I asked
the Lord to show.
Lord, if you want me to gothrough, I'm willing.
But if not and not the Lordreally opened the door it was in
the capital campaigns goinggood, Everything was going good.

(37:35):
My wife's pregnant with twins,and we made our commitment,
started giving on our commitment.
My wife was just like.
I just feel God is about to dosomething and in the big moments
of my life in ministry, God hasreally spoke to me or caused me
to be more open, when Mrs Parkshave said some things.
And then the opportunity cameto go to New Hope.

(37:57):
Everything was done.
We had just gotten received theloan.
New Hope is my second.
My second stewardship Where'sthat?
At North Little Rock in Conway,Arkansas, I had the blessed
privilege to follow ReverendCarlos Kelly.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
And what was that transition like for you?

Speaker 2 (38:14):
It was different.
It was good but different.
To leave a church that you'realmost like their child.
They love you, you are, this isour love family.
To come behind an establishedpastor, closer in age.
No tension at all in thetransition, it was just

(38:37):
different.
I'm not from Little Rock, I wasa guy from the neighboring
large city.
It was different but it wasgreat.
They were very loving, warmpeople, but just different
context.
What was?

Speaker 1 (38:50):
Little Rock, like I mean Memphis, is not big, it's
Little Rock.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
It's a great city, but it's a smaller city.
It's not Big Rock, it's notMedium Rock, but it's Little
Rock.
But I want to say Little Rockwas good to me.
It grew me as a person,prayerful.
I think it grew me as apreacher too, which is
ironicland.
Taylor says all preachers haveto go through memphis at some
point of their life.

(39:14):
So I spent six years in memphis, but I think the lord grew me
as a preacher in my faith inlittle rock.
Because I went to little rockbelieving that I was going to be
on the backside of the mountain.
I love the church.
It had so much potential, so Imade up my mind that I wouldn't
be going anywhere.
I went to Little Rock believingthat I was going to be on the
backside of the mountain.
I love the church.
It had so much potential, so Imade up my mind that I wouldn't
be going anywhere.

(39:36):
I stayed there forever and Iwould be off the road.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
And the Lord did the exact opposite.
It became more of a request foryou to preach in various places
, but keeping you away from home.
And then, at the same time,where you currently are, that
opportunity presented itself,which you eventually accept as
you are now, and you can tell usnow where you are, where you

(40:02):
pastor now, how long you've beenthere.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
I'm blessed to serve the wonderful people of the
Metropolitan Baptist Churchestablished in DC.
Blessed to serve the wonderfulpeople of the Metropolitan
Baptist Church established in DC.
Now we're in Largo, Maryland,and that church is 159 years old
.
It's the second oldest blackBaptist church established in DC
.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
You ain't scared of nothing.
You follow Bishop Kevin Willis.
You follow we would call himBishop Carlos Kelly.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
He's the bishop now.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
He is the bishop, and then you follow not just Dr
Maurice Watson, the precedes him, Dr H Beecher Hicks.
I mean, you're really showingthese guys who really George
Parks is.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
No, the Lord takes care of babies and foods.
That's all that is.
The Lord takes care of babiesand foods.
That's all that is.
The Lord takes care of babiesand foods.
What are?

Speaker 1 (40:52):
some of the things on your heart that do now you're
at Metropolitan.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Man.
I want to continue to restorethat church.
Dr Maurice Watson has done agreat job, did a great job
stabilizing that church.
I want to continue the richpreaching legacy.
As far as I know, that's alwaysbeen a part of that church, but
as far as my memory, EC Smith,H Richard Hicks, the Reverend Dr

(41:18):
Maurice Watson to bring thatchurch back to what contemporary
ministry looks like in the 21stcentury, Just want to be a
church that's established in theD, established in DC, but
serves the DMV.
So we want to be a hub forministry there.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
So we're grateful as long as you feel comfortable,
talk about the history of thechurch, what you said, because
when you say reestablish not,you know we don't have to go
into the glory details ofanything of that nature that
lets you feel comfortable doingso.
But what are some of the thingsthat now have you all working
on?
Cause what happens in ourcommunity is people hear

(41:57):
pieceworks of stuff and they runwith it, um, and everything is
embellished, um and so just toget a clear from the horse's
mouth, so to speak, um, whatthat process, what the church
was like your days and how youwere in DC, you saw it firsthand
, and then you know whatoccurred as relates to the

(42:18):
challenges and then how it wasreestablished with Dr Watson in
some ways, and how you feel, howyou continue to excel this
process.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yes, the Metropolitan Church was just like going to
the Washington Monument forBlack people in DC.
Right there on our street, thelikes of Maya Angelou, ron Brown
, tronel.
It was a mainstay forpoliticians Richard Smallwood,
richard Smallwood, richardSmallwood, thomas Tyler.

(42:53):
Nolan Williams was our ministerof music.
Great known for music, highworship, blended worship, the
arts Church has a highappreciation and ministry to the
margins had a great streetministry.
All those things were at workin that church.
Great street ministry All thosethings were at work in that
church.
Dr HB HB Hicks and hislegendary preaching prowess,

(43:20):
ability exposed and highrhetoric In an effort to serve
this present age.
They wanted to go out to Largo,maryland, and established
church.
Some people didn't want to gobut they made the decision to go
.
And a grand building project.
But the economy tanked 2008.

(43:41):
No one saw that coming andcausing us to lose that building
project.
And Dr Hicks was nearingretirement and health challenges
.
So you have a failed buildingproject, challenge project,
retiring pastor and only likeReverend Dr Maurice Watson-Cahan

(44:03):
, came to help that church,stabilize that church.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
And God knows he did that and we are indebted to him
as well as we're indebted towhat Dr Hicks has contributed to
that church and he stabilizedthe church and I was in Little
Rock excited for Dr Cone.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Home.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Mm-hmm, not ever imagining that I would be going
to Metropolitan.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
So at the same time that you transitioned, Dr Watson
transitioned back to LittleRock, where you currently are.
You're excited to have yourmentor.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
My preaching mentor is right around the corner.
We live around the corner fromeach other.
We see each other three days aweek.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yeah and end up switching that you were leaving
and would go to DC.
What are some of your passionsnow as it relates to I'm hearing
this dispensation of the church?
What are some things that youwant to get off the ground in
these early years?

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Prayerfully get us in permanent building space,
restore our worship, continue torestore our worship culture, to
reestablish that we're not inDC, established in DC, but we
serve the DMV, we serve thegreater area and God has blessed
us.
We received a $1.2 milliongrant from Lilly Listen to that

(45:24):
To be a hub.
We are a host and learningcommunity to do sustainable
ministry post-pandemic.
What does that mean?
Sustainable ministry?
Well, you're the hub.
Yeah, so we want to be a hubfor churches in that region
where we come together and learnabout contemporary methodology

(45:46):
for ministry.
But as the host, we also needto be a learner as well.
So we're very much a part ofthis learning process and
journey.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
Those funds will enable you all to learn and also
share that information to thesurrounding churches.
Wow, that's powerful.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
And providing them with interns and grants to
upgrade their technology and allthose things.
So I think God has really putus in a great position, just not
for us to grow before us, tokind of be the hub to help grow
the churches.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
You're in DC.
Area is 2024.
What is going on?
Maybe this year around NovemberElection, presidential election
, yes.
Who are you voting for?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Well, I can tell you who I'm not voting for.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
You can tell us who you're not, who you're not
voting for.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
I'm not voting for Brother Trump.
I'm not voting for him.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
You're not voting for former President Trump because.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
He doesn't represent the best for all people, just
not.
I just don't think he's goodfor America.
Right, it's just too divisive.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Do you?
Is that something do you have?
What is the role of the churchin navigating people through
that decision?

Speaker 2 (47:02):
I think the role of the church is to help people
think theologically about thethings that we say.
That's important.
Not saying that every personchecks all the boxes, right, but
God knows you ought to checksome, yeah, and also helping our
people to realize what theBible says and what the Bible
does not say.
Mm-hmm, because with electionsthere comes rhetoric and

(47:23):
propaganda.
Mm-hmm.
And sometimes we wrap certainparties wrap stuff in spiritual
speech that does not have anyspiritual real import wow.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
So will you be preaching on anything
specifically for that?
I don't know.
Does your church allow gueststo come in with?

Speaker 2 (47:40):
yeah, we allow guests to come in.
You know we've had individuals.
Vice president pence came.
I think he came at the wrongseason, when Dr Watson was there
and Doc had to speak out onwhat was going on.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
What happened in that situation?

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Oh, Doc spoke out.
There's some great clips on CNNwhat he felt that was needed
after President Trump calledthose countries of color asshole
places.
So it was great.
I loved it.
I was watching it, so I don'tknow what I'd be preaching
during that season, but I knowI'd be praying through it sooner

(48:16):
than later.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
When people come in there, are they allowed to speak
?

Speaker 2 (48:24):
I have not made a determination of that Okay being
in such a highly politicalcontext.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
That's why I asked.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
I don't know and I'm processing through that I think
people need to address, but Idon't know.
That's the belly.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
What social issues do we need to be addressing from
the pulpit as we come into thiselection season?
Just have fresh on people'smind to be conscious of these as
they make their own autonomousdecision.
Women's rights Say more aboutthat.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Are we voting for people that are handcuffing
women not to make decisions forthemselves?
And we have to be mindful ofthis, because most times we say
we are agents of free will.
God gives us the right tochoose, so God gives us the
right to choose him.
You don't think God gives usthe capacity to choose what's

(49:23):
best for our bodies overall, soyou?

Speaker 1 (49:28):
talk about abortion and abortion rights as it
relates to women.
Now there are Christians whowill say abortion is a sin,
abortion is wrong, killing.
How do you teach and navigatethrough that?

Speaker 2 (49:42):
I have not.
I don't know if everything isrequired for preaching Got you.
I think some things we addressI think it's my job as a pastor
is not always to preach to them,but at least to raise the
question for people to think.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
Ethics, ethics.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
And then also for areas that are not my strength,
to bring individuals in that canspeak intelligently and
biblically to that, and I thinkas a a pastor you have to
realize you know we'regeneralists, we're not
specialists and when.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
Um, but it's nuanced conversation.
Would you agree that both sidesare nuanced and so, oh,
absolutely so, I guess, when yousay women's right, I guess for
me it, it requires for both, foreither side, that sense of meat

(50:35):
to the bone of this is a healthissue.
This could be think about thematernal death rates, and that
takes place especially whenAfrican-American women, that
takes place especially withAfrican-American women and at
the same time, being clear thatthis is not a promotion of
promiscuity and the same thing,of divorce.

(50:58):
What would you say?

Speaker 2 (50:59):
God hates divorce Right, but he also gives grace
for divorce.
I mean we need grace in allother areas of our life.
So, and our whole understandingof what it is who God affirms.
I think God affirms marriage,but God does not abandon people
who are single Right.

(51:20):
So, I think we have to have amuch better, closer reading.
Yeah, I hope he hasn'tabandoned you, george.
I think we have to have areally closer reading and a
better interpretation of the NewTestament outside of our
western, civilized, puritaninfluenced ways you said a lot

(51:42):
there.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
How does the puritan influence the western?

Speaker 2 (51:46):
civilization.
What's the difference?

Speaker 1 (51:49):
between the Western mindset and the Eastern mindset.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
I think we have to always.
I think it's a little different, but I think we have to stand
in the times of the text, and Ithink that's something that's a
hard thing for us to do asWesterners, because we are being
so Westernized we look ateverything through.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
What does it mean to be westernized?

Speaker 2 (52:12):
We just like, like we think this whole idea of church
only way of churches.
We us coming into the building,but churches it was a community
and that's.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Western.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
That's biblical, I don't know.
You can determine.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
No, no, no.
What I'm trying to get at isit's not a gotcha question.
You know, when we say, you know,been westernized or puritanized
, those, those statements, hasan important component to it as
it relates to even what you talkabout, as it relates to
religion, as you talk to socialnorms.
You know, one of the things wetalked about this podcast is

(52:45):
about and developing thosethings and if you look into the
puritan standpoint of the playon pure and there's perception,
but also being defined throughthe lenses of a social groups,
experience and dominantreligious bit, not necessarily

(53:06):
Christian bent being as well.
So I just I wanted to hear youand still want to hear you, sort
of for our listeners, not foryou for our listeners to be kind
of be able to understand andidentify that some of the things
that we hold on to as socialnorms in our context of being

(53:30):
Americanized even morespecifically, is not necessarily
the moral apex or biblicalstandard of living.
It's just what, being from acertain region of the world
during a certain historical timeof the world being impacted by
certain people, and world in acertain historical time of the
world being impacted by certainpeople.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
And a certain time.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
Yeah time.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
A certain time is very huge.
So I think we have to bemindful of taking reading the
eyes of the text through Jesusand being sensitive to that
above everything else.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
How do you deal with difficult texts?
Um, and you're preaching.
How do you deal with the rapeof Tamar?
Um, how do you uh, um?
How do you deal with the rehab?
How do you deal with the David?
Uh, not the David that'splaying the instruments and
writing the songs, but the Davisthat's setting up men to get

(54:28):
killed and, most likely, rapinga woman.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
I wrote an article sometime for Southwestern
seminary called the narrative.
That fails and I think the realpiece about preaching
characters is we don't preachthem as models, we preach them
as mirrors.
And really standing in theshoes of that character Of
saying, do you see yourself here?

(54:52):
Maybe Tamar sings?
Do you see yourself as abused?
Do you see some David in youwhere you've used your power to
get your way?
And really that might be biggerthan the adultery.
It was this whole play ofdomination because Bathsheba

(55:16):
almost did.
She have a say in the matter shedoesn't, but we don't hear that
from our other majority culturepulpits and that's a lot of
place where so much, but wedon't hear that from our other
majority culture pulpits.
And that's a lot of place whereit's so much you don't hear it
from a lot of men black or white, yeah, so just being open,

(55:38):
being sensitive, and I thinkthat's what theological
education comes in.
A robust theological education,I don't think it could be
robust if you only view a textsolely from your side.
At least be conversant evenwith those that you don't agree
with.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
How do you make sure that you don't do that?

Speaker 2 (55:56):
I think having preaching partners that preach
totally different from me.
So some of my preachingpartners I probably like to call
myself biblical, some would sayconservative.
I like to say biblical, buttalking to individuals that I
know have a differentperspective and that will give
me some insights and researchfor me to think about.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
When you say a biblical partner, I mean a
preaching partner.
Is that another associate?
Is it another pastor?

Speaker 2 (56:25):
I think it's another pastor.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Sometimes if you have professors that have, I really
think if we engage theseprofessors a bit more, I think
that's a huge opportunity forgrowth for local pastors you
know what's interesting?

Speaker 1 (56:39):
you said you know being more conservative.
I always laugh at thatstatement when I hear black
people say that because blackpeople are inherently
conservative, we are aloof toour conservativeness.
Yes, because black people areinherently conservative, we are
Aloof to our conservativeness.
Yes, even if you take peoplewho have liberal perspectives,

(56:59):
let's just throw stuff LGBTQIA+,but you hear them talk and
begin talking in other areas.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
it bleeds back to a conservative standpoint, even if
they may be liberal, even ifwe're selectively conservative.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
Yeah, yeah yeah, even if it's selective.
Where do you think that comesfrom?
Because it's not awesternization thing.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
You know where.
I think it comes from I waslistening to a scholar.
It comes, I think, from the.
The continuous pushing thatthere's been is something wrong
with us or that we're beastly orout of order.

(57:41):
So our whole rule to show thatwe are not these beastly people
without souls, that we take someof these more rigid stands or
social acceptance and that we'veallowed other people to implore
as spiritual yeah, that'sinteresting.

(58:03):
I wish I could have said itbetter, but no, no no, I think
it was.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
It's clear, and I think that leaves space for us
to have the conversation aboutthe psychological aspect of
being black in America.
I think King nails it among thedominant race in America,

(58:32):
opposed to this inherent feelingof inferiority among those that
are not a part of dominate,specifically white for the
former and black for the latter.
As a pastor of a predominantlyAfrican-American congregation
and just even understandingpreaching in, quote quote,
unquote black church howimportant, because we talked

(58:55):
about the celebratory pointearlier, and I think there's a
reason why there's that aim,because this is the important to
say even if you got, even ifyou have the beat them down
about something you got, toleave a at least some hope, some
sense of celebration, becauseyou have a world that's

(59:17):
constantly pushing them down.
Talk about that for a littlebit.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
It's very important celebration, as always.
We have always had to find waysto celebrate and and and curate
the goodness of God in so muchpain.
We see that with Jesus, even onthe cross.
We only say that Jesus quotesPsalms 22,.
And we just say he quotesPsalms 22, my God, my God, why
has thou forsaken me?

(59:44):
But when you keep reading thatPsalms he says now I know that
God, he's still confident in God, that I will trust in God and
God will deliver me.
So it lets us know that painand hope can live in the same
house.

Speaker 1 (59:56):
Joy, and pain, sunshine and rain.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
That's right.
Yeah, so we need that Even inthe pandemic.
Remember when everybody wassaying don't celebrate, Then our
members was trying to say weneed to hit a pass to celebrate
Because they were alreadyriddled with pain and they
needed that.
It was a, it was cathartic forpreacher and people.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Yeah, it makes you feel as if, sometimes,
subconsciously, we we have thetendency not to properly assess
the things that we inherently dowell, that is, in the artistic

(01:00:40):
world.
That is a part of our natureand so you know, you and I can
get up and say, listen, I justwant to talk to your church
today about such, but next toyou, you know, you take it a
turn, because we have this.

(01:01:00):
And I think this is tied to theAmerican experience.
I wouldn't connect this to themotherland.
I think it's the experiencethat we've had, that's uniquely
the African-Americans to be ableto sing as caged birds, to be
able to work all day for no payand to be beaten and dehumanized

(01:01:22):
.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
They still say up above my head, I hear music in
there.
Come on, reverend, that's huge.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
And it comes out in areas of our socialization.
And it comes out in areas ofour socialization Again, we
talked about social norms inthis part of the conversation,
in these podcasts.
It comes out in ways thatsometimes becomes even offensive
to our own selves, where weneed to celebrate and appreciate
that a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
I think Frank Thomas writes a great work on that.
I think it's his work oncelebration.
I think it's his.
It's his work on celebration, Ibelieve, is they never like to
quit praising God, uh, his roleof celebration and preaching.
And he, he does a robust workon the role of celebration and
preaching.
That's something that we, wenever need to be ashamed of.
I don't think we ever need tolet it go, but I do think we

(01:02:10):
need to come with a higher senseof understanding.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you saying that.
That's definitely true.
A little pop culture as weleave here, oh.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
I'm limited there.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Relevant to even some of the things we talked about.
One of the things that'scurrently a hot topic is our
dear brother Sean Combs and thethings that are taking place in

(01:02:46):
that, and I bring that upbecause oftentimes you will hear
people critique and criticizethe church as being you know, we
know it all hypocritical,judgmental.
They're people that will haveno empathy, and as I look at how
mainstream media, evenmainstream black media, is

(01:03:06):
handling this issue, it remindsme that the very thing that they
try to accuse us of is the veryfabric of their existence.
Most of them would not need adossier from the FBI to know
some of these things that arebeing painted across our screen,

(01:03:27):
which, under the Americanjudicial system, this brother is
innocent until proven guilty,and settling a lawsuit does not
inherently mean that you areguilty of that.
It means that you have theresources.
We fell in that mistake with thefirst things, with Michael
Jackson.
The first case that you havethe resources, where it's just

(01:03:47):
more apropos to do it that way,that doesn't mean that he's
innocent either.
I'm just saying that that aloneis not sufficient.
How does a situation like thatbleed into us challenging our
people in the area offorgiveness, in the area of
reconciliation, in the area ofrestoration.

(01:04:08):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
Yes, I think it goes a little higher than that,
though.
Does that make sense?
Yes, I think it goes a littlehigher than that, though.
Okay, we have to realize tooDiddy is a part of a larger
culture, a larger system.
Yes, If this is the case, yes,so being discerning and in some
cases this is not okay Anythingof the abuse or the domination

(01:04:34):
of any person is not okay, butcould it be that he's a victim
of himself?

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Well, it's like the Jeffrey F thing.
When the list came out ofJeffrey F thing, nobody talked
about the list.
Here's why nobody talked aboutthe list because everybody's
name was on the list.
Yeah, and so if you really wantto, unravel this thing?

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
I think it starts at discerning.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
Discerning Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Levels and then I think we can work our way down.
We're all human and life, ourjourneys, our decisions, our
interactions, our successes andour failures.
When you tie them all together,it's a king reminder that we
need God, we need someone, andwe need a loving God, a merciful

(01:05:24):
God.
Now, what process things gothrough for us to get to that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
You know you think about the rich man and Lazarus.
What money does to a person?

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
We none of us know who we are until we have that
type of disposable income.
Yeah, you know, we always saywhat we we won't do.

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
Yeah, the rich man is dead and separated from Abraham
.
We won't say heaven, hell, wewon't use those terms Because I
can't remember off scripture ifthat was how it was identified,
so forgive me for that.
Anyway, he's trying to tell Godwhat to do in there.

(01:06:09):
And then Luke 12, the parableof the rich fool, who is not a
fool because he's rich.
He's a fool because he believeshis riches supersedes his walk
and his admiration and faith andhis ability and consideration
of who God is.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
And so that list is long.
That says something too.
That whole thing aboutpreaching to the middle class
Witness not that if you feelthat you don't have an immediate
need, which you still always do, you need the invisible,
immediate need of grounding weforget about.

(01:06:49):
God grounds us for life.
Yeah, to keep us focused onwhat's important, no matter what
.

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
As you navigate.
Getting older and coming from aculture that's because of
technology.
The shift I try to get peopleto understand this the shift
because of technology, socialmedia and things and the cell

(01:07:18):
phone selfies, all that theshift in generation is wider
than it has been in any othergeneration.
So, like there's in many ways.
You're 40, I'm just turned 47.
I'm glad you let the world knowthat you're 40, 40, about to be
41.
I'm just turned 47.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
I'm glad you let the world know that you're older
than me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
Yeah, they just have to look at us and see that
you're younger and I'm older.
Times fill us with transitions,but this gap that exists there
and trying to bridge that gap,as one you brought up, I
listened to cassette tapes.
There's no generation that does, even in the day what you talk

(01:08:00):
about.
I used to write letters.
They have no clue what you'retalking about.
You wrote a letter, you put astamp on it, put an envelope on
it and sent the.
But it's such a big gap there'sno other.
It's such a big gap.
It's not like you're 67.
It's such a big gap.
How do you pastor?
You have an old spirit.

(01:08:21):
You're probably the oldestyoung man or youngest old man
that anybody knows.
How do you pastor and still beintergenerational, specifically
to the younger generation?

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
That's an intentional push for me intergenerational,
specifically to the youngergeneration.
That's an intentional push forme because I feel like I've been
trained for a generation thatno longer exists or is fading
away quickly, but I think it ishaving I'm in constant
conversations with those who areattuned futurists and adding
color to your team to help youto stay engaged on those things.

(01:08:54):
So that's very important.
And just being conversant withculture at least, even if you
don't resemble it in dress ortone, at least in thought.
So I don't think people arealways looking for us to show up
a certain type of way outsideof our authentic sales, but at
least people uh, when, whencontent is king, you know no

(01:09:16):
other substitute would do so.
I think if you have content andyou wrestle with the things
that people wrestle with,they'll still listen to you,
even though if I might not showup externally the same way who
are some of the preachers youlisten to now.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Enjoy listening to look up to man.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
I'm going to go younger peer older, specific,
I'm listening to all of mycolleagues.
I'm really listening to mycolleagues younger my brother
Jeremiah Ty Jones, uh, Reggiesharp, Daryl Hall.
I think that's a voice that alot of people need to hear.

(01:09:59):
My generation, everybody.
Yourself, Phillip Pointer,who's yourself?
You, Charles Goodman, Daniel,I'm just listening to everybody.
Daniel Brown.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Anybody in our crew.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
I'm listening to them .
I have a profound respect.
Even if we don't talk If Idon't talk to that person all
the time, I have a profoundrespect.
Corey Scholl, a permanentBaptist guy.
James Mooney, great biblicalpreacher that I think the world
needs to hear, and I believe inlistening to people.

(01:10:36):
That's not the same.
James Jackson, the oldergeneration I have a profound
respect that is really pouringinto my life at this point is
William Curtis, jerry Carter,wayne Croft, marvin
McMickMichael.
So I have a kind of a eclecticpreaching diet.

(01:10:59):
What I listen to.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
Pastoring who are the people that you lean on for
pastoral insight and perspective?

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
Dale Drumwright.
Dale Drumwright, my father,dale Drumwright is a super
pastor.
He just is.
What is he pastor?
The temple church in actualtennessee.
Oh then, I forget, but thoughtof me, or?
Yeah he's just he's been aministry, uh a ministry mentor
example.

(01:11:25):
Just how he's carried himselfis, uh integrity.
I know he's no person isperfect, but I think he's real
close to the Lord, just great.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
Not living Preachers.
You look up to not living nolonger with us.

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):
Caesar Clark.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
Caesar Clark.

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
No longer living oh my gosh, oh, I think he's died
lately.
No longer living oh my gosh, oh, I think it was that lady.
That's not good.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no.
Let's not get that morbid.

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
Just historical figures, co Franklin.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
Of course CJ.

Speaker 1 (01:12:03):
Clark GE Patterson.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
All those yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:08):
I am so, I am so.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
Oh, charles Walker Philadelphia.

Speaker 1 (01:12:17):
One day we was riding in the car and we was listening
to him.
Yes, yes, yes, oh my gosh EB.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Hill his that topical thematic A Lewis Patterson.
I don't think we listen tothose of the past generation
enough.
They really me and Corey Schshow talk about it all the time.
Uh, sometimes listen to them Ihear like Lord, I'm so far away.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
You're more reverence and those guys you feel
reverence for God reverence forGod.
Thank you for the specifics ofthat reverence for God A a a
sense of a consciousness ofimportance of holiness in their
preaching.
It's not judgmental, it's notcondescending, and even G
Patterson at times would bequote unquote judgmental, but it

(01:13:04):
doesn't feel that way.
You know, he may get up andtell you about how y'all not be
drinking things of that nature,but it doesn't, even if we.
But it doesn't, it doesn't.
It doesn't even if we disagreewith that perspective.
It doesn't seem like it'scoming from a viewpoint.
It comes from a viewpoint of Iwant the best for you.
Yep, I'm trying to put you down.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
I just want the best for you.
Yeah, you don't agree witheverything that your pastor says
but you keep coming backbecause you know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
But you know, just like your parents, they want the
best for you.
They want the best for you.
So I might just hide this fromthem out of respect and
reverence, because I know whatthey but they don't understand.
Hey, I eat this and that so andso, this and that this and so
on, so on, so on.
What is a getaway?

(01:13:55):
Relax, I don't have to be DrPastor Reverend Preacher.
Mechanism for the greatReverend, dr Pastor Preacher,
professor.
Author Dr George Parks.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
What's my getaway?
Yeah, good dinner, goodsteakhouse dinner at a local
steakhouse.
Just enjoy everything thatcomes with that pre and post.
I look forward to that, andinternational travel.
International travel gives megreat reprieve and refreshment.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
Trepidations.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
Managing the opportunities that God gives.
Don't want to have so muchwhere you don't manage it well
and don't ever want to come offas mechanical in preaching or in
relationships, that is.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
That's very helpful.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
That's a great fear.
And balancing it all, yeah,just want to be a whole person.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
Where can we find you ?
Where can we find the?

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
church.
Find me on IG at GL Parks Jr.
Facebook George Lewis Parks Jr,george L Parks Jr.
Metropolitan Church, the MetChurch DMV.
Instagram, the Met Church DMVor Metropolitan Baptist Church
on Facebook.
Follow us, check us out.
What's your website?
Metropolitanbaptistorg.

(01:15:20):
So if you're ever in DC,everybody has to come to DC.
Everybody got to Come by andsee us on Sundays 8 o'clock or
1015.
You'll be out in time forbrunch.

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
Amen, let the Lord use you.
Let the Lord use you.
Let the Lord use you.
What you got coming up Anybooks, any speaking?
Oh well, don't know, any bookscoming up, any writings, what
you've already wrote.

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
I'm praying through some things on the life of Noah
and some other possibilitieswith putting my predecessors in
conversation on lessons inpastoring.
So I'm looking forward to thatwork and praying that we can get
that out?

Speaker 1 (01:15:57):
What have you already dealt with?
What have you already written?

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
Excuse me, I've been blessed to write a small work on
Samson when God's Purpose Findsyou A devotional Mount
Meditations.
A contributor to the, the onlybook that I know of this on
African-American expositorypreaching called say it by Eric
Redmond, so I was grateful to bea part of that, that group that

(01:16:24):
made some contributions.

Speaker 1 (01:16:26):
That's great, that's amazing.
And then, last but not least, Ineed that there's.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
one of my favorites is Charlie Dates too.
I like Charlie's preacher.
He just has a command of theEnglish language.

Speaker 1 (01:16:38):
Yeah, he does.
He's a very, very nice guy,very smart guy.
He is my sibling rival.
In fact, me and him haveconstant Instagram social media
battles About the question I wasabout to ask you in closing.
In closing, you're fromCleveland, ohio, dayton, ohio.

(01:16:58):
Who's the greatest basketballplayer to ever play?

Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
You put me on the spot like that.
You really gonna do that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
Yeah, I mean, I can answer it for you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:10):
I'm not answering, I want to hear what you have to
say.
No, I mean, it's really not aquestion, it's really.
I mean I can answer it for you.
I'm not answering.
I want to hear what you have tosay.
No, I mean I'm not answering.

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
I'm not answering.
It's really not a question.
It's really rhetorical innature.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
Okay, so who's the greatest?

Speaker 1 (01:17:17):
It's like who got up on the third day?

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
Okay, so who's?

Speaker 1 (01:17:20):
the greatest.
It's not quite there, sorryLord, but it's LeBron, but I
don't think he's the greatest,it's Michael Jordan.
Okay, well, now you can answerthe question.
All of a sudden now you cananswer, but you said you
couldn't answer.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
You see how he pulled me into that I don't understand
what happened there First.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
I don't know what's going on.
Well, I was just being said.
Now, all of a sudden, badJordan.
That's fine, that's hey.
Y'all.
Look out for upcoming episodeof Nuance Podcast.
Thank you for listening.
Consider being a partner withus.
Remember this is a space wherewe try to be honest, try to be
open, we try to be intelligent,we try to be empathetic, we try

(01:18:04):
to listen.
Nuance Conversations signingoff Peace.