Transforming Church Dynamics and Embracing New Horizons

Dr. Michael Fisher, the transformative pastor of Greater Zion Baptist Church, graces us with a conversation that traverses the valleys of personal loss and the peaks of innovative leadership. After a poignant hiatus following the loss of his parents, Dr. Fisher reemerges with a revitalized spirit and ambitious plans to expand his ministry to Santa Clarita and Houston. His insights on leadership and the upcoming Pivot Conference are not just plans—they're a blueprint for engaging communities through faith and empowerment.

Reminiscing about the vibrant church culture of Los Angeles, we reflect on how generational shifts have reshaped congregational dynamics. With a backdrop of personal stories, including my own journey from performing "Amazing Grace" to embracing my calling to preach, we explore the tension between maintaining traditions and embracing individuality in faith. These anecdotes reveal how humor and questioning societal norms have shaped my spiritual path, challenging us to redefine how we engage with our communities.

Dr. Fisher and I aren't afraid to confront the church's toughest conversations, from sexuality and mental health to fostering safe, authentic spaces for all individuals. Our dialogue underscores the importance of empathetic leadership and mental health awareness, highlighting personal experiences of burnout and resilience. As we share our stories of growth and healing, we aim to inspire others to embrace their journeys with faith and courage, fostering a future where open dialogue and compassion lead the way.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another powerful and prolific
conversation here at the NuanceConversation.
My name is George Hurt.
I am the creator and curator ofthis space.
This space is meant to be aplace where we have nuanced
conversations.
We operate in the gray, not theblack and white, here, and we
have one of the greatest minds,one of the greatest preachers

(00:21):
and pastors, brother beloved,that is here with us.
You all know him.
I don't got to, you know.
You know how Ali was like.
They know Dr Michael Fisher,the wonderful and esteemed
pastor of the Greater ZionBaptist Church in or church in

(00:41):
the wonderful city of Compton,california, but he's expanded
there, even in Corona andvarious parts.
We'll learn so much about him.
We want to dig in today, but Igot to swear you in, do you
swear?
You got to raise your hand andplay along with us.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Are we kidding right now?
That's not scripture saying wehave to swear to none.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Ladies and gentlemen, this is what we're going to be
dealing with.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Non-compliance, Absolutely all brand.
Yeah, be dealing withNoncompliance, absolutely All
brands.
Yeah, I'm going to be theroughest guess he's had, for
sure this will definitely bejust a feel of what we're about
to get into I promise To justyou know, be nuanced in this
conversation To be nuanced inthis conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
That's all.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
It's just a playful thing to say here that we will
talk about religion, politics,social norms and pop culture
here, obviously with a Christianspiritual bit.
How you feeling today, bro?

Speaker 3 (01:32):
Man, I'm feeling good .
Man, I'm here with you, big bro.
Yeah, man, I don't even wait,hold on, hold on, how old are we
?

Speaker 1 (01:40):
That is nobody in this Nuance Conversation
business.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
Great, great, great, we 40 ish.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, 40 ish.
Uh, at that point where you'retoo young to be old, too old to
be young.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, um, I'm saying that cause I call him big bro,
because literally he's biggerthan me.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah, that's it.
That's it, ladies, andgentlemen, it has nothing to do
with the, the um or lymph onearth.
He's a genius.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
I'm like nervous to even be here, bro.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah, yeah, you nervous.
That's funny.
Tell us what you've been up tolately man, you know what.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
So I think this is so interesting because, as you
know, I kind of been off thescene for a second, and that
happened because my dad died andmy mom passed away.
A lot of people don't know that.
You know I went through somepersonal stuff as well, endured
a separation and then, you know,just rebounded from that and
now I'm back.

(02:35):
You know pastoring.
I got a conference coming up,my first conference that I'm
doing.
Of course I've been a dad, yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Let's not slip through that, because we want to
plug that yes, even though itis maybe aired later, but we
still want to plug the PivotConference.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, yeah, because the Pivot Conference is a part
of a bigger thing which is theFisher brand.
Yeah, so I've been working onthe Fisher brand, my LLC, where
I'm a branding consultant, so Ido my best to try to help people
take what it is they're doingand make it marketable you know,
especially in the area ofsocial media and especially like
with the religious space,because you know folks is just

(03:16):
posting stuff and I'm like theangle is horrible.
Yeah, you know so.
Anyway, yeah, so the Fisherbrand, I've been working on that
, my CDC been working on thatcouple of grants that we
received, so we do a mentorprogram and then, of course,
pastor in Greater Zion, whichnow is in two locations and
we're actually getting ready toexpand to two more.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Wow yeah, where would those be?

Speaker 3 (03:40):
The next location is going to be Santa Clarita, so so
it'll be a GZ Santa Clarita, soit'll be a GZ Santa Clarita,
and then it'll be a GZ Houston.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
What does that look like?

Speaker 3 (03:51):
It does not look like me doing it for sure.
I'm actually taking a page outof the friends that you have you
know what I'm saying, the onesthat are our clear cousins, and
just sending out campus pastorsthat share the heart, but we all
kind of like share from thesame menu, so them knowing like

(04:14):
what the theme is every year,knowing kind of what I'm
focusing on each month and then,but of course, allowing them
and the spirit to cook upsomething on their own.
So I have a campus pastor inCorona.
So GZ Corona is off of actuallyCompton Avenue in Ontario,
ironically, ironically, pastorJay Bolden.

(04:35):
He's doing a great job so heleads that.
I'm going to name the campuspastor for Santa Clarita in
December of this year, pastorfor Santa Clarita in December of
this year, and then we'reactually merging with another
pastor in Houston that hasalways been an ally of GZ but he
sees the significance, I guess,of coming together and saying,

(04:56):
hey, man, I'll be the campuspastor and I don't want to do
the day to day work stuff.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
So that's powerful man, Great model for taking and
expanding the kingdom,especially in Los Angeles.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
Following you, bro, cause you're doing two churches.
Yeah, we're trying, yeah.
We're trying and you're the onedoing it.
Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, so what you're doing is a more healthy model,
uh, for, for a lot of reasons.
For a lot of reasons, not justmentally and physically and task
wise, but also kingdom wise.
Um, because it lot of reasons,not just mentally and physically
and task-wise, but alsokingdom-wise, because it is
brand-centered, notpersonality-centered, correct,
even though you are the shaperof all that, you're empowering
other men and women as leadersof these campuses, to do the

(05:39):
work of ministry.
We're going to dive more intothat, but I think it'll be great
to learn more about you.
You're originally from LosAngeles.
Tell us about growing up, yourchildhood and, ultimately, your
profession of faith in JesusChrist.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah.
So first of all, everyonethat's listening, let me tell
you something.
Pastor Hurt, don't tell younothing that you're getting
yourself into.
I have no idea how thisconversation is going to go here
.
We are about to dive into mychildhood and he's just sitting
here.
Do y'all video this, do you?

(06:14):
Are you going to show this OnYouTube?
Alright, you're going to exitout the flip-flops.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
You're going to show it on YouTube.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Flip-flops are going down man, that's how we rock it.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
You see how much he's enjoying this right now.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
Okay, he about to doctor film me All right, anyway
.
Not at all.
So I was born here in Inglewood, california, at a hospital that
don't even exist anymore DanielFreeman, daniel Freeman.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
Daniel Freeman Hospital and then, of course,
grew up in Carson, california,which was adjacent to Compton,
california, and then grew up, ofcourse, at Little Zion
Missionary Baptist Church, wheremy father established that
church, which is the first blackchurch in Compton, and he I

(07:01):
mean we'll get into that too.
His father, which founded 103rdStreet Baptist Church in Watts,
moves it to Lime Avenue on theeast side of Compton and now
calls it Citizen of Zion, whereBT Newman was the pastor.
And so I grew up in Little Zionand grew up in Carson.

(07:22):
My family is from Compton, soof course I spent a lot of time
in Compton as well.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
I was Compton growing up because I know there was a
shift in it.
How was it growing up when?

Speaker 3 (07:34):
you were growing up.
Well, you know what, man?
It's crazy because you knowpeople that are from the outside
looking in.
They think that people thatgrew up around that area Compton
Watts, carson, all of that thatwe have these horrible memories
of you know being shot at everyfive minutes.
Actually, man, I can smell thegrass on Saturday.

(07:54):
You know of the gardener, youknow, or whoever is cutting the
grass.
It's hot, ain't?
Nobody got no air?
Everybody outside.
And yeah, you got people walkdown the street with their 40s
you know, but they're likewhat's up little you know
whatever.
So I mean you did know theblocks that you weren't supposed
to be on Right.

(08:14):
The main problem was the policeand we've cleaned that up for a
good part.
But the main part and the partthat was violent was really the
police, not so much the gangs asmuch as it was the police.
And so growing up in that itwas a very tight knit city and

(08:36):
people don't notice aboutCompton.
It still is a very tight knitcity.
They honor families that werethere from like conception when
black people moved there.
So the Fisher name, the Fisherfamily, the legacy there is
strong in Compton.
Many of the leaders camethrough Little Zion.
Of course the church was thefirst black church there and so

(09:00):
growing up I have nothing butgreat memories.
Unfortunately, of course,growing up in LA period you go
through your tragedies.
I've had friends shot andkilled right there on Crenshaw
where the Pontiac dealershipused to be, across from the
Wienerschnitzel where theyfilmed the Boys in the Hood.
I think out of 10 of my friendsthat I had, I want to say maybe

(09:20):
one is alive.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yeah, so unfortunately I've endured all
of that, but for the most part Ihave nothing but great memories
of growing up in Compton Carson, los Angeles.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, I think people are not aware.
Like home is home.
Yeah, like, and memories areeclectic.
You know there are bad memoriesand there's good memories.
That's true of the suburbs,that's true if you were built in
a gated community and we seewhat happened with a famous rap
mogul and his home and his kids.
Tragedy seeps in in differentways and various ways, but you

(09:57):
know you're growing up in themidst of it.
That's not how you process it.
Yeah, you remember thefriendships, the relationships.
You work through those badmoments and you look back and
many people survive it andbecome better.
Some get caught up in it andnot better, but you still love
them equally.
You know it's still that.
That love is still there.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
I wouldn't say equally, but the love is still
there for the roots and thememories when you know I grew up
understanding that you know thesense of community, you know so
and understanding the code ofwhat people that are outside of
our community don't understand.
So on TV and on the news itjust looks like random people is

(10:36):
just being gunned down everyday, and while that does happen
right, we do know that for themost part we also understand, if
you grew up in LA or South sideChicago or wherever.
You understand the code of thestreets too, you do.
And a lot of times, thosethings that people felt like we
have to always duck and dodge.
You knew how to walk it.
You knew how to move.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
You knew how to move.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Like they knew who I was.

Speaker 3 (10:59):
They knew you the preacher kid.
No, you can't come, don't comeover right now.
Yeah, you too anointed.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
You know, there was like your daddy going to kill us
, yeah, and if you got abasketball player that's
progressing, you can't come youshield them.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
You stay over there.
Yeah, you got a future.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
You always have that reality of it when you think
about the church life growing up, not just in Compton but in LA
in general.
Can you speak a little bitabout that?

Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yeah, so I think that LA now has changed tremendously
compared to the LA culture thatI grew up in.
So all I can remember, ofcourse with my dad and shout out
to Dr W Jerome Fisher he's inheaven, you know, reaping his
reward.
But he was a legend, right.
So I was fortunate to hang outwith other legends.

(11:52):
You know Dr EV Hill, you knowDr Henry Lyons when he was the
president of the NationalBaptist Convention and stuff
like that, but in Los Angelesduring that time of like the
late 80s, which is where I startremembering into like the mid
90s man.
There was such a level ofcamaraderie and family and

(12:16):
brotherhood amongst the clergyand the churches.
So any given Sunday, first ofall, you went to church every
Sunday, all day, as you know,yeah, eight, everybody had a
seven.
Third.
Everyone had an early morningservice, a mid morning service
and an afternoon service, right,and so I just remember coming

(12:37):
up church, being church Folkscame in there to have it.
They breaking out, theyshouting, they having a great
time.
Then you leave from there andyou're going to go to somebody's
church and it's four of thechurches on, it's packed, you
can't get in there.
It's hot, no AC, but youexcited to be there because your
choir going to kill, yeah, youknow.
And then you heard otherpastors preach and you excited

(13:01):
to hear them because, you know,while you knew your pastor could
deliver the word, you also knewthat you could get a word from
them as well.
So, coming up in the climate ofLA many revivals, a lot of
concerts, fellowship afternoonprograms, pastoral anniversaries
.
I feel like LA was like jumpingwhen it came about church.

(13:21):
But of course that was ageneration that during that time
they were in the helm and inthe driver's seat of the culture
and all of them weredescendants of Louisiana, texas,
the Midwest, down south thatmigrated out here.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, so you got one or two, maybe max three
generations of Southern people.
So you basically got theSouthern hospitality and
fellowship people, so youbasically got the Southern
hospitality and fellowship.
That's a very introspective,intelligent way to look at it
when you think about changingbecause now you've got four or
five, six generations separatefrom that social norm to the
more city life concept and Ithink LA my dad said that you

(14:03):
know LA has always been theplayboy city, right, Hollywood,

(14:28):
we all know that.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
It deals with, of course, the spiritual entity
that's over it, that's aboutglamour and, you know, partying
and it in LA, to the numbers inpeople's churches down South and
back East, especially downSouth because they're still
closed on Sunday and stuff likethat.
La, there's a zillion things todo.
So if someone decides to not goto the zillion things to come
and hear you preach, get on upthere and be appreciative
because they bypass 17 things tofill up.
They scheduled to come andlisten to you for two hours or
whatever.
So but I think that the oldgeneration that came from the

(14:51):
South and honored that oldschool coming up, they've passed
away and then a lot of themhave moved back.
A lot of them are retired.
Yeah, so we're, we're, we're nowwith the generation that all
they know is to go have fun.
So I think that's why theclimate has shifted a little bit
.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, that's, that's absolutely right.
You're uniquely gifted andtalented and you're in church.
What was the metamorphosisprocess of hey, I'm here with
people but I'm also, like, havethese unique abilities?
Were you like that kid that wasstanding on the on the yellow

(15:31):
pages doing stuff, or you wereyou laid back for a while and
had to force it out of you?
I think I know the answer, butI'll go ahead and just play
along with the question.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
So I mean this is infamous.
Every teacher always told mymom Michael is such a great
student, he's a studier.
I mean he's going to get thehomework done.
He's a joy to have in a class.
If we could just get him tojust be quiet and stop
disturbing everybody else withhis jokes Really, you know that

(16:07):
would be great.
So my report card used to be,you know, A-S.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yes, we had threes in Detroit.
So yeah, you know what I'msaying.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
So, it was like you know, I got great grades
academically but that whole likecompliant to like sitting in
class and being still or beingquiet, it's not that I think for
a second.
They try to say I had like 80 Dor something like that, but my
mom was like he ain't got no 80.
He didn't sit in the high endToday you'd be on medicine and
stuff For sure, right.
So I always thought I was asuperhero.

(16:35):
I always believed in likesuperpowers.
I always thought that you knowwe were something greater than
you know who we really were.
You know that.
We just need to tap into it andfind out.
I always wanted to be a mutant,you know.
I always thought I was you know, cyclops or somebody you know,

(16:58):
wolverine.
So you take that personalityright and then you take it to
church and then you plug thatpersonality into the narrative
of a supernatural God that saysthat you can do supernatural
things.
And voila, then you get me.
And so I always had a problemwith people that were going to

(17:21):
church to all become clones ofeach other.
I just always had a problemwith it.
So I was always like, why, whatdoes that mean?
Clones of each other?
Like, I always had a problemwith people that would come to
church and all of a sudden, youknow you don't dress like that.
You know, you know you can'tstand suits.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
You know.
But now, all of a sudden, youforcing yourself to get in a
suit, you know, so that the, the, the people, the deacons and
stuff will pat you on the backand say, oh, look at you, I see
a change, yeah, yeah, yeah, um.
So I always had a problem withthat and I used to always ask my
dad, like why do we do that,why, why, why do we do that, why
?
And I mean there would beseveral times.
My dad would just be likemichael, will you just please,

(17:59):
just please, be quiet.
But I always kind of resistedthe norm All ways.
You know I would be like Idon't understand.
Why do I have to put thisarmband on my arm?
I mean I would do it if youexplain it to me.
But I never was the kid thatwould just do it, just because
you said so, yeah, yeah.

(18:20):
So that has always been me.
And then my father taught me along time ago Every gift that
you have comes from God and soyou should use it.
So I decided to do that, eventhough I started preaching and
pastors and preachers would tellme stop doing that, you can't
sing, you can't dance,choreography and all of that
stuff.
And I was like, well, god gaveit to me.

(18:41):
You mad because you can't, soI'm going to do it anyway, right
, yeah, so I've always been thatkid, always, bro.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
What was your first time?
You can remember doingsomething in church, up front
and getting that, you know,getting that feeling of
satisfaction, that joy for doingit and seeing people engage in
it, and because part of what wedo is connected to how we can
make others feel in light ofwhat we do as well, um, when was

(19:11):
your first time um having thatfeeling?

Speaker 3 (19:13):
um, okay.
So it's weird because for me inchurch, I don't think I ever
have received the feeling oflike, like, oh, look at how you
know how this is making themfeel, because I'm always like
terrified about but did I pleaseGod?
Right.
And even when I was a littleboy, my first time that I got up

(19:34):
to give a theme speech was likeI was eight years old and I
remember talking from Genesis,chapter one, in the beginning,
and I can't really remember itall to this day, but I do
remember people shouting andrunning out the church and from
that moment forward, thinkinglike, oh, this is, this is

(19:58):
pretty powerful.
You know, like when you talkabout God, you know and you talk
about him, right that you know.
Like when you talk about God,you know and you talk about him,
right that you know the peoplelike experience something I can
put into words then, but Iactually ran from it from that
moment.
Really, yeah, yeah, yeah, causeI was just like that's too much
pressure and then, everyone atthe church like you're going to

(20:20):
be just like your daddy.
Oh, I knew you was called.
God's got great things in yourlife.
I'm like, okay, y'all doing waytoo much.
I'm just in the second grade.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
So I haven't, from that time forward, you know what
I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
They like you know, we want to ask your son to do we
want you to do the welcome, wewant you to do the response to
the welcome we want you to do.
We want you to be the themespeaker.
You know, and I was like, no, Idon't want to do it.
Mom, you know, we want you tobe in a play.
I don't want to do it.
So after that one time Iactually went in my shell for a

(20:57):
second.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Musically.
What was your first interaction?

Speaker 3 (21:02):
First time was I sung at a school play and I sung
Amazing Grace, how Sweet theSound.
And I remember being nervousand when I got up there I closed
my eyes and with all I had, youknow, I just belted it out and

(21:24):
the people just like startedapplauding.
My whole family sings, my dadsings, all my sisters and
brothers on my dad's side, theyall sing.
My oldest sister she's passedaway but she was one of the
writers and founders of thegroup War oh, wow, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
So she wrote the song S, thesong slipping in the darkness,

(21:48):
um, and she wrote the song war.
And so you know, listening tothem sing, you know you're
really nervous.
Uh, you kind of feel likeyou're coming up in the gospel
Jackson's, yeah, Um.
But I belted it out and youknow, and they gave me an
applause and did a whole set ofovation and everything.
Now that was when I said, oh, Ilike this feeling.

(22:10):
Okay, yeah, I like that.
So then from there they startedhaving me lead in a children's
choir, at the church, of course,and then I would do the
pageants that they had at theschool and yeah, but I even in
in singing I didn't like eversay I never liked singing, like
the slow stuff, you know, likethe traditional stuff I was

(22:32):
always attracted to.
I mean, we're in the generationof the michael jackson's prince
janet, um.
So I wanted to do that.
I knew I could dance and Iwanted to always be an artist
that could like sing and dancelike straight out eight counts.
And so that didn't happen untilI got older.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
So, yeah, that's my next question.
Like what?
How are you marrying those incontext of church?
But you just said it didn'thappen until you get older.
Was you ever given anopportunity to then suppress, or
you just never?
It never, just never flowed.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Yeah, no, I mean, it was never.
It was frowned upon to do allthat dancing in church,
especially if you were a guy,you know.
So I mean it was likeabsolutely not, you know.
So I suppressed it for a longtime.
I suppressed it until I got arecord deal Shep Crawford, who's

(23:28):
now a pastor, pastor ShepCrawford.
But when I met him he was stilla mega producer who produced for
Tamia and Deborah Cox and allof them, um, and at that moment,
um, he was doing something withthe background dancers for a
show.
I had coming up and like, Ilearned the A count.
And he was like yo, you candance.

(23:49):
And I was like, yeah, and hewas like why don't you?
And I was like because theytell me I'm not supposed to.
You know, I'm a pastor and allof that.
And so he was like you knowwhat?
Go ahead, dance.
So he wrote a track and Idanced to it and from there I
started becoming this artist, jKingdom.
And there is where I let thatbe the outlet for that, you know

(24:11):
, singing and dancing, full onchoreography.
And people were actuallyshocked that I could do it.
Yeah, and I can, and I canmaintain my breath and I can
sing, while it's no tracks, likeI'm.
If you look on YouTube and yousee those moments, I'm singing
full on Mike.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Mike is on and dancing, so we can go to J
kingdom on YouTube and you'llyou'll see all this good stuff.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
There is the.
You know you're five toolChristian, you know.
So we got the singing and thespeaking, but ultimately we'll
get the pastoring.
But let's talk about preaching.
How old were you when you firstinitially felt the call,
accepted the call in trialsermon?
Um, how old were you?

(25:00):
Trial sermon was 18.
Yeah, you've been preachingsince 18 too.
Yep, 18.
Dang man, we got a lot incommon.
How old are you?
Uh, trial sermon was 18.
Yeah, yeah, you've beenpreaching since 18 too, yep, 18.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Hey man, we got a lot in common.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah, yeah, I okay.
So I eight years old when I didthat thing was when I kind of
felt like I think I'm gonna be apreacher.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
I think at the first time I felt that it was like
eight.
Yeah, it was where I think itwas at a.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
it was at a funeral, it was at the funeral yeah, I
was like yeah, I think I'm gonnabe a preacher.
And I was like and that'scompletely not what I want to do
.
I'm like completely hurt.
I'm like are you kidding me?
no way, that's gonna be, that'sgonna suck yeah you know, so I I

(25:46):
suppressed that around 16,though.
Um, I just started feeling,though, the need to like speak
again.
Yeah, um, and to to preach hisword.
I was very clear on that.
Like I started looking at thepulpit, you know saying, and
it's like um, I don't lie, no on, thundercats.
Know where the sword starts,like calling your name.

(26:09):
So, I started looking at thepulpit and I started kind of
feeling like I'm supposed to beup there and I was like, oh no,
I'm good, I'm straight,especially at 16.
I was out and about doing allmanners of sin and enjoying it,
you know.
But at 18, the Lord basicallyshut down.

(26:29):
Everything in my life Went to arevival.
Pastor Kevin Hall was preachingand I knew that I was starting
to really feel called to preach,because I don't know if this
happened to you, but you couldlisten to preachers and you kind
of be like, oh, if you say this, like they're going to go crazy
and then, they not say it.
And then?

Speaker 2 (26:48):
you'd be like oh man, that's why.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
Yeah, you get very analytical.
So for me it was a lot ofsubconscious stuff going on.
Where I was, you know 13 and 14going to revivals, not even
know what called a preacher.
Being a preacher meant I justwanted to hear and analyze
preaching.
So when everybody else wasasleep I was listening.
I was being analytical.
I have set my my, my cassette,I said my radio, I manipulated

(27:23):
my cassette player to that'swhat I woke up to preaching.
So I was listening to the tapes.
My friendships evolved aftermeeting people they're preaching
.
But never in my mind that Iknew the vernacular or jargon
right, well enough to know, oh,this is a call, right, this is
where you're like.
But it was definitely thatfeeling.
But it wasn't too long until Irealized like, oh, you get up in

(27:47):
church and you tell people, youset the call, you preach a
child sermon.
So I didn't really know what todo with all that.
But I was just enjoying doingit Right, with no, you know,
plans of expanding more thanborn in that.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
Yeah, so my deal that I made with God as I started.
I had two jobs at the time.
They were great, I had a carand everything.
So I was living the best lifeever.
And the guest evangelist toldme the year before, when I was
17.
He was like there's a call onyour life.
And I was like here you go withthis spooky stuff, you know.
So I knew he was going to comethis year and do that stuff

(28:22):
again, so I told my dad I had towork so I wouldn't have to pick
him up.
And on Monday they fired me.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
I walked in.
I walked in.
The psalmist says yes, god isreal Bruh.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
I walked in on Monday and they was like yeah, can we
see you for a minute?
Sure, I was a supervisor too.
I walked in on Monday and theywas like yeah, can we see you
for a minute?
Sure, I was a supervisor too.
Then they walked in and he said, yeah, budget restraints, it's
just hard around here.
So we had to choose between youand this other guy that was
working there, but he was therelike 10 years before me.
They was like so we're going tolet you go.
You know he don't have a family.

(29:01):
You have a family, your mom,your dad, you'll be fine.
So I got fired and, um, I waslike all right, whatever you
know.
And so I went to my other job,which was at Bank of America,
and, uh, they did a massivelayoff.
So I got fired on Monday for myfirst job.
Tuesday, I got fired from Bankof America.
Um, I still wasn't gonna go tothe revival, right?

(29:22):
My, my family didn't know.
I got fired, and so I was justgoing to hang out every night.
I had my own car, and then mycar just stopped running.
This is not a lie, I'm notgassing this.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
This is exactly what happened.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
I tell this story all the time.
The car stops running, bro, andso I'm sitting here like you
got to be kidding me.
So Friday, huge party washappening, um, and all my
friends normally roll with me.
They was like, hey, you knowyou're gonna pick us up.
I was like, yeah, I am.
And um, I had an appointmenttoo, because that day I wanted

(29:56):
to get a couple of piercings.
Um, so I was gonna go hang out,drink, get some piercings, come
back.
Shock my parents, you know thatwhole thing.
And so I asked my dad.
I was like I need to use thecar, can I use the car?
And my dad was like sure, son,he's like one condition you got
to go pick up the preacher first, you got to come to church

(30:18):
tonight and then you can use thecar afterwards.
I was like all right, fine,whatever so, and then you can
use the car afterwards.
I was like all right, fine,whatever so.
I told him I was like, yeah, Igot to go to church.
It's dumb, you know.
I'll call y'all as soon as Iget back home.
We'll hook up.
Afterwards.
Picked the preacher up.
The entire time he looked at meand was like you can't run,

(30:40):
we're on the 110 freeway.
He was staying at the TorranceMarriott, we're on the 110.
He's like you know, son, youcan't run, You're about to run
out.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
And.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
I'm sitting there like amen, you know, trying to
be respectful.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Okay, get there.
He preaches a sermon aboutJonah and you know how God will
take you and he will create anentire situation to engulf you.
If you just don't say yes,right, and the Holy Spirit hit
me, man.
And next thing I know I waswalking down the middle aisle

(31:15):
and I get to the middle aisle mydad comes down, like the church
is packed, and my dad kind oflooks at me, kind of like he
knows he was like son, like whatare you down here for?
And I'm like I'm accepting mycall to preach.
Wow, church goes crazy.

(31:37):
Wow, my dad speaks in tongues.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Wow, Now, my dad was a traditional Baptist pastor.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
I didn't even know he could do that.
My dad's, like I, was like whatis happening?
What?
Look at you, you know.
And he runs up the middle aisle.
But the deal was that I madewith God I will preach.
So when I said I accepted mycall to preach, I meant preach a
sermon one.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
I was like okay.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
I will preach this sermon that I had in my spirit,
revelation, chapter 3, and then,when I'm done, you're done,
you'll let me go back right.
Right, I mean, you know, goddon't never say nothing.
He's just kind of like sure,yeah, that's exactly what's
going to happen, of course.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
It's always great to negotiate with sovereignty.

Speaker 3 (32:35):
I've been preaching ever since I'm going on what?
25 or 27 years, something likethat, yeah, 27 years preaching,
yeah, ever since then.
February 6th 1998, 10 o'clockPM was when I got drafted into
this Wow, yeah, and that's howthat happened.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
How long before you preach your first sermon after
that, the?

Speaker 3 (32:56):
next month.
The next month, bruh, my dad,shouts and speaks in tongues.
Church is going up.
At the end of the service hesays and all of y'all, come back
March 1st.
And I'm sitting there like whatand we'll get into later about
how my dad used to do thisspontaneous stuff with me and it

(33:16):
would tick me off becausethat's how I became a pastor.
But in this particular story hegets up and he's like oh y'all,
come back March 1st.
He, this particular story.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
He gets up and he's like oh, y'all, come back March
1st he's going to deliver hisfirst sermon.
I'm like are you kidding?
What the heck.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
What sermon was that?
That was the Revelation 3sermon.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
Revelation, chapter 3 .
Revelation, chapter 3.
Church of Sardis.
I think it is, and my subjectwas playtime is over and the
irony.
And and everybody came out thatnight I was scared to death.

(33:55):
The whole city was in the room,bro, like Little Zion, which is
the name of the church.
Then Imagine, bro, like peopleoutside right, chairs down every
aisle, like chairs in the frontof the aisle, preachers in the
old pulpit, like crammedtogether, like there was nowhere

(34:16):
to move.
They're all here to hearFisher's boy, you know, deliver
his first sermon.
Anyway, it went well.
I hooped, I hooped and,surprisingly, I didn't think I

(34:37):
was going to and that's whateveryone was waiting on, you
know, because my dad was, youknow, a driver and I did, and I
walked the aisles and everythinglike skipping down the aisles
and hollering, yeah, becausethere's only one sermon you're
gonna preach, so might as wellget it.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, yeah, hold back .

Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah, man, I just said, I sold it all I preached
like for like 45 minutes first,something usually first,
something like 15, 20 minutes,10, 15 minutes, 45 minutes.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
I was in it people shouting time is like 15, 20
minutes, 15 minutes, 45 minutes.
I was in it.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
People shouting, they running down the Alamo, people
shout, to the point where yougot to give them peppermints.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
you know cause they they they sugar low, right.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
And uh, I'm done Right.
And then then the Lord gives meanother scripture and I'm just
like and then the Lord gives meanother scripture and I'm just
like, oh, he's like yeah, I wantyou to preach this next.
And then my dad gets up andsays y'all come back next Sunday

(35:35):
he's going to preach the 11o'clock service.
And literally heart, I've beenpreaching almost every week
since March 1st 1998.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Wow, yeah, every week , sometimes more than once a
week, obviously, yeah, yeah,yeah, definitely.
What was some of the challenges?
Now you know and this happens alot when you get called to

(36:07):
preach, god just, and peopledon't understand that preachers
are imperfect, god doesn'treally give us dislike.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Now I want you to get your character together and I
want you to be able to have yourdiscipline together and then
after that.
No, you're going to do it nowand you'll learn on the job.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
It's like go in there and make the burgers.
Where's my training?
No training Make the burgers Ifpeople don't understand.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Like yeah, I never cooked before.
Yeah, you're blaming me for thestuff I'm doing.
Like he was the one that blamehim.
I was telling him that's thething I was saying to God.
Like I can't do this.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
I told him specifically, like I
legitimately yeah, thechallenges, bro, was exactly
what you're talking about, right, was that I just got thrown all
the responsibilities.
No one took the time to trainme to do anything.
Actually, looking back was likehurtful.

(37:11):
Actually, my dad I understandwhy my dad did it later because
my father didn't want to becharged with oh you, you did
this.
So my dad intentionally tookhis hands off of me when I
started preaching.
He wouldn't help me with sermonprep, nothing.
I was on my own.

(37:33):
And then the preachers that wereassociate ministers at the
church at the time they all left.
Literally the next Sunday therewas nobody there, and so I had
to learn how to conduct thepulpit.
I had learned how to, um, leadthe church, you know, I became
now suddenly the preacher thatmy dad would throw it to if he
was going out of town.
Um, all of it, and no one wastelling me what to do, bro.

(37:58):
It literally just learning howto pray, listen to God and being
okay, god, I think this is whatyou're saying, so I'm just
going to try it.
And on top of that, the moralfailures you know, like you got
to give up sex.
That's.
That's crazy Like.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
I was like that's that's insane.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
You know, like I haven't been a virgin since I
was like 12.
No, so dealing with thosestruggles smoking, weed,
drinking still partying clubbing.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
I was 18, as you know being young, but because of who
?

Speaker 3 (38:35):
my dad was right.
A lot of places I would go thatI had no minutes being.
His members would be there.
People would be there.
That knew me.
So the challenge was that Iwould fall with eyes on me and
then I still had to stand up andpreach.

(38:55):
You know, it was a.
It was a struggle.
The church gave me no grace.
They automatically assume, ofcourse, I'm a pastor's kid, so
that's how y'all act.
And just trying to find thisthing out on my own, being over
a youth ministry on my own.
Nobody told me how to do that.
No one told me you know how tobe a youth pastor?

(39:18):
That was a brand new positionin Little Zion at the time.
Brand new position in the inlittle Zion at the time.
Uh, so everything you guys seeme do and everything I've done
literally was just following God, trusting his voice, because I
did.
I did not have help.
Who?

Speaker 1 (39:33):
was the other pastors , being from a distance and
preachers or up close that youlooked up to in those early ages
and early stages?

Speaker 3 (39:42):
Um, during that time, because I'm a Baptist boy, so
Dr J Benjamin Hardwick, still myaunt, you know, love him, To
know him is to love him, so Ilooked up to him, of course.
Praises of Zion and Western.
Baptist State Convention, and Iof course praises Zion and

(40:04):
Western Baptist State Convention, and I of course admired Noah
Jones Bishop Noah Jones who atthat time in the late 90s he was
just killing LA, you know.
I looked up to Bishop Homer whois now my spiritual father,

(40:25):
ironically, and there's a storyin that too, um and, and during
that time I looked up to PastorXavier Thompson, because I think
he was like 23 or somethinglike that and he was a young
pastor doing it and of course,pastor HB Charles Now HB

(40:48):
Charles' dad and my dad werelike best friends.
So, Pastor HB Charles and I andPastor Monroe.
We would all hang out when ourparents would come over to each
other's houses.
Pastor HB Charles gave me myfirst book, and that's when his
office was in the basement youknow underneath and um gave me

(41:11):
the first book and from time totime he would call and check on
me just to make sure I was okay,cause he understood the
pressure I was under.
Um, but those are kind of theguys locally that I that I did
look up to yeah, thanks forsharing that.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
Now let's go into the journey of becoming pastor.
Yes, prison, but before we dothat, you mentioned something
and I think we need to come backand have a bigger conversation
about that.
I just I'm preaching on divorce.

(41:46):
I'm in the midst of a seriescalled I Can't Believe the
Pastor's Talking About this.
I love it.
So we talked about rape andsexual assault one Sunday that's
good Grief, loneliness.
Last Sunday was suicide.
This Sunday is divorce, and youmentioned about, you know,

(42:11):
being a virgin and things ofthat nature.
And in part of the sermon onsuicide I spoke directly to the
LGBTQIA plus community as itrelates to knowing the suicide
rate that's connected to thatcommunity and the church being

(42:31):
liable and contributing to thatever-growing, constantly growing
rate amongst that community.
And in that also I acknowledgeto that group.
I tell the church I'm nottalking to you, so you know
you're not going to like whatI'm you um.
So you know this ain't, you'renot gonna like what I'm about to
say.
So, right, this ain't for youanyway.
So, um, only, if you do it, Idon't care anyway, right, but um
, that the church fell to.

(42:56):
We love to talk about those sins, but we don't talk about
sexuality in general correct.
And then, as adults, we stillstruggle with about sexuality in
general Correct.
And then, as adults, we stillstruggle with what sexuality in
general is, even though you maynot struggle in that category.
That's so taboo socially, inchurch, not as much in the world
as it used to be, but the worldacts like they never.

(43:19):
Was there either too Like youknow, that's always interesting
as well.
Was there either too, like youknow that that's always
interesting as well.
But, um, as it relates to youngpeople and the church and
dealing with sexuality, is thatsomething you've thought about,
something you've addressed?
Um, and and another point thatI made in this, the sexual

(43:40):
assault sermon is that we stringpeople to make sure that they
don't have any charges, but wedon't teach the kids that we're
stringing how to identifypredators and overcome.
Is that something that you'veever formally talked about or
formally thought about how toaddress with young people, cause
you have such a powerful andprolific voice among young

(44:04):
Christians?

Speaker 3 (44:06):
Yeah, so my ministry has always been transparent and
it's funny because, as I am, Idon't want to call it coming
back on a scene.
That's crazy, right, I'vealways been here, right.
But it does seem like God seemsto be just lately kind of
rebranding me, you know, or likejust bringing me back amongst

(44:28):
everybody.
We've been on the radio theother day and all of that good
stuff, anyway.
Anywho, one of the things thatI told the Lord was like, okay,
we're going to do this, then wedo this with full transparency.
So, with what you just asked, Ihave addressed it, I have
talked about it.
You know, I have myself gonethrough being, you know,

(44:50):
assaulted, you know, and and thethings that comes with that,
you know, and I have been.
I had a nephew who he passedaway, and he was a part of the
community and I watched thechurch shun him, even family

(45:10):
shun him in the worst way and Ijust didn't see the grace and
the love of God.
And so what I've done is I havecreated a very open and
transparent culture at GreaterZion that it doesn't matter what
you're dealing with, no matterwhat your struggles might be.
Here is a safe space for you toprocess through that.

(45:30):
However, please understand, wealso want to transform you right
.
So we are not an affirmingchurch.
We're not an affirming ministryof any sin, right.
We don't want to make that sinfirm.
However, we are accepting ofthe person who is processing

(45:51):
through that sin.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
Yeah, I use that exact language.
I use that exact language.
We are non-affirming but we'reaccepting.
And then I said you know Ioffer myself personally.
And then I said you know Ioffer myself personally.
Hey, if you're looking for asafe place to struggle through

(46:15):
these things with and you don'tever have to leave the community
, but if you're willing tostruggle through these things,
I'm going to be that safe place.
I want to be that trusted, thattrusted friend.
A lot of people don't understand, like you know, when you start
making these statements.
A lot of people that are sayingamen to the Adam and Eve and
that Adam and Steve aredisguised amens of, who are

(46:38):
dealing with those similarstruggles.
And until you have, well, thankyou for sharing that and thank
you for the work you've done inthat because, like I said in the
suicide sermon, when you lovepeople, you don't know who life
you just saved Right by justsaying the person that's fully

(46:59):
aware of their mistakes, fullyaware of their mistakes, is the
person who made the mistakeRight.
So, when the person, when I seeyou make a mistake and I
highlight it further be itpublicly or privately, you're
just enhancing what's already inme, thus leading me to this
place of turmoil that eventuallyleads people to either

(47:23):
attempting or taking their ownlife or living in this constant
struggle of those suicidalthoughts which leads to violence
, sometimes towards other people, and so I mean that's such a
significant thing.
One of the reasons why I wantedto do this series is because
any all right is appropriate andneeded.

(47:44):
People need that.
People need the Lord is myshepherd.
People need, you know, weep andendure for a night, enjoy
coming in the morning.
Yeah, but most of us spend themajority of our life walking
down the lane of how do I dealwith me?
Yeah, and born in sin, shapingin iniquity.

(48:05):
You know, I think of John nineand we throw the man born blind
parents under the bus becausethey said talk to him, he's of
age.
Yeah, but we fail to forget.
Like they're saying he's of agebecause they have talk to him,
he's of age, but we fail toforget.
Like they're saying he's of agebecause they have been
addressing these for probably 18, 19, 20 years and now they're

(48:25):
saying he's at the age ofaccountability.
We've walked through that, yeah, and the person that have never
, you know, loved a specialneeds child yeah, wouldn't
understand the empathy for thatstatement that they make.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
I think that is.
You know, I love that wholeconcept of like living in the
nuance, understanding thateverything is not black and
white, right, and then they loveto use the Bible, very
ignorantly, to try to prove thepoint that it is right but it's
not.
You know, you have moments thatare very black and white.
Right, you have an encounterwith the Lord.
You know, have moments that arevery black and white.
Right, you have an encounterwith the lord.

(48:58):
You know, something hashappened, conviction has
awakened you.
But that process of walkingthat thing out, though, that's
going to take a little bitlonger that's the part that
people get confused about.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
Black and white, like it could be black and white,
yes, but I'm not so walking out.
That which is black and whitebecomes nuanced, becomes.
Well, you know, it's crazy notto cut you off.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Here's the thing that's that's interesting about
it is because we love to preachthat initial moment when that
black and white moment happens.
So, for example, right thewoman caught in the act of
adultery.
And then he says where are youraccusers?
They're not here, great.
So she's done Right.
And he says go and sin no more.

(49:42):
Now it becomes gray.
We already know how she didwhen she left.
Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
Yeah, I mean, she lived a wholelife of obviously fooling
around with men, you know?
Was she successful in that?
Was she not right?
And the reason why I think it'sleft vague like that is because

(50:05):
it goes back to what we'retalking about, that these
encounters they are black andwhite.
It's like God showed up.
God showed you your potential,god spoke to your need.
God did give you the power toyou know, to raise yourself back
up so you won't jump off abridge, you won't kill yourself.
But I think the other part of itthat has to be preached is but
when you leave this church andwhen you leave this altar,

(50:27):
experience and you go and try towalk this thing out of, go and
sin no more.
It's not going to be as blackand white.
There's not going to be thateasy and for me that has been
the core of my ministry.
I have, if anyone has ever,because I get titled with like
here come Fisher, here he comewith this.
You know he hate the church andthis, that and the other, and

(50:47):
it's really not.
That's not the truth.
I hate the pretentiousness thatwe find in church.
I hate even more thepretentiousness that we find in
church.
I hate even more thepretentiousness that we find in
preachers.
And so what people get from me,the tone that they get from me,
is this lack of transparency.

(51:10):
You know so when we see peoplein these churches and we tell
them now you get up and don'ttouch it again, you know good
and well that that's notnecessarily the case.
How do you know, pastor,because you haven't gone and not

(51:31):
touched it again.
Yeah, you know.
So I think that when we havethese conversations, this is
when we get into it being real.
It's a real gospel, you know.
So I think that when we havethese conversations, this is
when we get into it being real.
It's a real gospel.
You know it's a.
It's a honest gospel, exceptfor that and not that
pretentious version of it.
So I don't have a problembringing up like my separation
and going through that.
It's the thing.
It happens, and it happens withpastors and sometimes people

(51:55):
don't stay together.
There are pastors who have babymamas.
It's a thing.
Get over it If you can sing inthe choir and direct, and you
got a baby mama and three babymamas.
Then he can stand up there andhe can preach as well, right?
So I don't have a problemtalking about it.
I think it needs to be talkedabout more and more so yeah, as

(52:17):
you know, I always look at David.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
David, beautifully after Bathsheba, writes
beautifully Psalm 32.
Yeah, it does Cleanse me andyou know, and the blessed is the
name whose sins are covered.
Psalm 51.
Have mercy on me, o Lord Purgeme with his sin, but the end of
David's life.
When David was sick, they said,well, they didn't bring in IVs,

(52:42):
they didn't bring in a life,they didn't do a test.
Who did they bring in?
They brought in some.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Persian girls To make sure, and they laid them in the
bed with the king and they saidcome here, baby Now.
Did the king try to touch you?
No.
And they said come here, babyNow.
Did the king try to touch you?

Speaker 1 (52:57):
No, did the king try no, king dead y'all so obviously
there was still that going onwith David that the people said
the way to measure if the kingis alive is how they respond to
virgin girls.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
Virgin girls.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
This is still the David.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
This is the blessed sister.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
man have mercy.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
This is still the David.
This is the blessed, is the man.
Have mercy Cleanse me with his.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
We sing all of his lyrics.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yes, that means that he was constantly being dumped
and being refilled.
That was you know.
The woman caught in activeadultery is beautiful.
We can romanticize andspiritualize and think every
time she was tempted.
She thought about how Jesusloved her and she couldn't go in
there because you know.

Speaker 3 (53:42):
But, how about?
What kept her was when she fellagain.
And this is all a hypothesis,so y'all don't, y'all, don't
kill her, don't kill me.
But what if she fell again?
And what got her through it wasthe statement of where your
accusers, where your accusersaccusers.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
I'm just saying and the person that could accuse you
, the only person in humanhistory that could accuse you
based off of that criteria, didnot?
Yeah, absolutely.
And so that brings you backhome, as it brings the prodigal
son ultimately back home to hisdad.
Well, pastoring, you have beenpastoring how long now?

Speaker 3 (54:17):
I've been pastoring.
Next year will be 20 years 20years 20 years, bro, that's a
long time.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
How did that happen?

Speaker 3 (54:25):
So not to hear a story, here I go.
Same guy I was talking about 10minutes ago, dr David Jones
Fisher and his finality.
I go to church the third Sundayin March of 2004.
It is his birthday celebration.

(54:46):
He is bringing in Pastor MarkWilliams from.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
Faith.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
Fellowship, corona and a lot's going on.
This day, something unusual isin the house, because that day
my dad gets convicted of theHoly Spirit and decides to let
the woman preacher that wasPastor Mark's associate pastor
to come in the pulpit.
We lose it because we're likewhat God is in the building.

(55:15):
I'm like, dad, are you about todie today?
You know like that's justunheard of in the traditional
baptist church, especially backin 2004.
Right, anyway, if pastor markpreaches, he gets finished.
My dad gets up and says I gotanother announcement.
He was like oh, son, stand up.
So I stand up.
He was like um, um, I found, Ifound our next pastor, right, so

(55:40):
I'm looking like thank god, I'mready to go.
You know I wanted to go tomorehouse college.
You know, um, I was finishingup at cal state, long beach, so
I was like I'll transfer.
You know I'm about to go livemy life.
Uh, because I only stayed,stayed back to help my dad.
But now that he got help he'sShata, right, and he says it's

(56:04):
him.
It's my son.
Yeah, michael, you're thepastor.
You're the pastor.
I looked in.
I was praying the other day andI asked God to reveal to me who
would take over Little Zion.
And he said look through thewindow, through the door, and he
looked through the window andhe saw me vacuuming the floor.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
After I would go to school I would come and I would
vacuum.
I would straighten up thechairs.
I wanted the sanctuary to lookright.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
And young preacher, did you hear that?
Young preacher?
Did you hear that?
Young preacher?
Did you hear that?
Yes, cause, the ones that getit, we'll get it by me saying
that, the ones that don't get it.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Never, never had it, and it ain't no hope.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
Right, so yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:54):
So and and actually I'm glad you brought that up
because I do tell peopleselected few people when they
asked me of how I became thepastor, was the holy spirit,
told my dad.
That's what my dad said.
Any person that cares enoughabout coming and running the
vacuum and sweeping up thesanctuary and he don't have to,

(57:16):
and he's doing that for thepeople you can trust him with
the church.
And that was the decidingfactor, not my degrees.
The deciding factor wasn't mycharisma when I preached.
The deciding factor wasn't howI was flipping the church when I
was closing it dock.
The deciding factor of mebecoming the pastor of a
legendary church was because Iwas running the vacuum and

(57:41):
straightening up chairs everysingle day, and so, anyway, he
named me the pastor and toldthem, everyone that he said so.
Majority of the church is here.
So let's take a vote right nowby the, by the bylaws, everyone
that agrees that he should bethe pastor stand up.
Now me.
I thought definitely this iswhere it was going to go in my
favor, because I was like, yeah,they remember me, they know I

(58:03):
don't really like them.
A lot of them don't really likeme, so this is going to go over
.
Great, they're not going tostand up.
The whole church stood up.
It was a unanimous decision.
He was like are there any nays?
I was like okay, here we go.
Now somebody please?
No, no, nays.
He says unanimous.

(58:24):
He pointed to sister EltharHargraves, who was the church
secretary at the moment.
She wrote it down in theminutes and then they had a note
, a notary that was there, andthey sealed it and then he took
some masking tape and put it upover his name, over the banner.
You know when they used to dothose banners back in the day

(58:44):
and say I'm no longer the pastor.
As of today he is the pastor.
So next Sunday when you come,he's your new pastor and sat
down.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
And, um, that's how I became the pastor of greater
Zion church family.
And that's how I became thepastor of Greater Zion Church
Family.
And that night when we got homeI had words.
I was like what the heck wasthat you didn't discuss this
with me at all.
What are you doing?
Are you crazy?
Like I'm not ready to benobody's pastor?
Are you kidding me?

(59:13):
Like I'm going to run thiswhole ship into the ground?
That man looked at me and threwme the keys and said well,
that's your problem now.
So everyone that's listeningthat'd be so quick to be like,
oh, I wish I was Fisher.
And oh my God, he got handedthe situation and silver spoon
and all of that stuff.

(59:33):
That's not how that went.
I legitimately got thrown.
Same thing with how I becamethe preacher thrown.
Then it was thrown to me andthen becoming the pastor, thrown
to me and my dad was done.
That man was finished and andrare back in his chair and watch

(59:56):
the game and it was like youcan go talk to your mama, I'm
done.
And he was never the pastoragain.
That was it, and they wouldcall him.
He was like no, he's the pastorthe next year.
They installed me.
He got up, he preached hisfinal sermon as the pastor and
his words were I will stay hereas long as I can to swim between

(01:00:18):
you and the sharks.
And yeah, now I had no seminarytraining, none at all, no
seminary education, none of that.
And here I am, 24 years old,pastor and one of the most
notable black churches in thecity of Los Angeles, in the

(01:00:38):
country.
I was wild, I was temperamental, you know.
I was angry because this churchhad brought me a lot of pain,
you know.
And then, all of a sudden, Igot to lead these people.
It was crazy times.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
What was a turning point for you in those early
years?
It wasn't for a while.

Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
God was just, he was merciful, he was gracious,
despite my foolery, you know,and even though I wasn't
handling it right, man, thechurch was growing.
It was just phenomenally justblowing up.
Um, and I think it was one daywe was at like three, four

(01:01:27):
services and one day I lookedout the window upstairs from my
office and I saw a woman walkinto church and she was on a
cane and you could tell it washard for her to walk and she was
walking to church.
And I said to myself that womanthinks enough of me and she

(01:01:52):
trusts that I have spent timewith God, that I'm going to give
her what she needs to make itthrough another week of having
to walk like that.
And at that moment was when Isaid grow up, you know, stop
being mad that you were put hereand how about you be grateful
that you were chosen?

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:02:14):
And from.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
There it turned.
What are some of the thingsthat you start to do?
That was different.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
Um, I started interacting with the people.
You know that's the first thing.
Um, I started um caring more.
Um, I started um being morepresent and just really, you
know, wanting to know the peopleI was pastoring and not just
treating them as like a really,you know, wanting to know the
people I was pastoring and notjust treating them as like a gig
, you know, as a preachingengagement every week, um, and

(01:02:43):
that alone helped to grow andchange the culture of greater
Zion.
Uh, the second thing was I Istarted to go to different
fellowships and convocations andstuff so I can start to learn
and expand, so that I would havethe tools I needed to be able
to pastor these people.
I started listening again tothe wisdom of my father and

(01:03:08):
started seeking the wisdom ofothers as my dad got older, went
back to school, got my master'sof divinity, and I just started
preparing myself and gettingall the tools I needed to be
able to do this right, so thatthat old lady and she's gone to
glory now that when she walks tochurch, limping the way she's

(01:03:32):
limping, that she's notdisappointed by what she hears
and what she sees from herpastor.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Wow, that's crazy, man, you're there.
Eventually, the church shiftsthe names.
What's the story behind that?

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
Bishop Kenneth C Omer is the story behind that.
It's May 4th 2008 or or 2009.
He comes to my anniversary.
This is a good story too.
This is bishop kennedy omer,bro.
This is right, and I'm I'mtelling everybody yo, bishop
omer is getting ready to come.
Let's be here on friday night,bruh.

(01:04:13):
No one comes.
The church doesn't come likeit's empty in there.
It's like 150 people sitting inthere.
I'm embarrassed, right, butthey were a new crop of people.
They didn't know about bishoparmer, right?
Um, anyway, he didn't care.
He preached, did his thing, andthen he prophesied and said you

(01:04:35):
can no longer call this little,because it will only be what
you call it, it's greater.
And so then I went back and Italked to my dad about changing
the name, and then he said healways wanted to change the name
, but during his time, to takethe word Baptist off would have
been crucifixion for him.

(01:04:57):
But, he never felt that we wereever just a traditional Baptist
church because we always flowedin the different gifts and stuff
.
You know, my dad didn't.
And so after talking to my dadand realizing that he always
wanted to change the name, andthen talking to Bishop Omer and
Bishop Omer told me before youdo anything, teach it.
So that was my first time Istarted doing series.

(01:05:18):
So up until then I was doingthe whole preaching a new sermon
every time I got up, which wascrazy.
That's so stupid.
And I did a whole series onlike the names, like whenever
God would change someone's nameand what it meant and where they
were going and they forecastedthis, that and the other.
And when I got finished withthat series I told them so we're

(01:05:39):
changing our name Greater ZionChurch Family, so it's still
Zion greater, so we believe wedo greater works.
It's a church, obviously, butwe're all about family community
.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Powerful, what has been some of the most, some of
the more impactful things thatyou've done as relates to
collaboration with the city ofCompton that stands out to you
in these years.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
Our job with the sheriffs.
You know I partner with everycaptain that has led the
sheriff's department in Compton.
The Lord has granted us and mefavor with most of them, thank
God.
We pray over them every year.
We service them, we go overthere and feed them during their
night shift.
As a result of thoserelationships we've been able to

(01:06:25):
actually be a part of talkingpolicy how you handle the
community.
We've helped them to changetheir language with the
community when they pull peopleover.
We've helped them to changetheir language with the
community when they pull peopleover.
We've gotten rid of the wholeflashing the light.
Pastor Tevin, that's here.

(01:06:47):
That was the youth pastor.
He's been with me.
I don't know were you in theroom with me when I made the
captain apologize?
He told us about that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this guy you know how thepopos do around here.
I was driving away from ananniversary service and my
deacon was driving me in my car,my Tahoe.

(01:07:07):
Yes, the windows were tinted.
Yes, I have rims, yes, right.
But he pulled us over butwalked up to us and they walked
up on us with guns drawn and waslike harassing.
And I was like yo, like youdon't have to do all this.
Shut up, get out the car.
I'm in a suit.
I'm like you don't have to dothis, like so.

(01:07:32):
Then eventually I was like youhave no idea who you like are
harassing right now, I don'tgive a kid.
We were like he, yeah, youfired Like in my head.
I'm like it's done, I text thecaptain right right.
Then and it was like yeah, yourdeputies is over here tripping,
they cussing at me, they gotguns drawn, they radioed it in.
He was like oh, you know what,we saw it.

(01:07:53):
We, you, you drove a vehiclethat looked like somebody that
did a robbery.
I said no, it didn't.
So I called the captain andsaid we have to rectify this.
You ain't going to just letthem slide.
I want a meeting.
So we had a meeting, broughthim in and basically, to make a
long story short, the captainmade his deputy apologize to me
for how he conducted himself,for how he conducted himself.

(01:08:13):
So things like that have helpedto move the needle, at least in
Compton, in how the Sheriff'sDepartment has dealt with the
community.
So I think that that'ssignificant for me because,
again, going all the way back tothe beginning of this interview
, growing up we remember justhow volatile the relationship
was between police and community.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
Growing up in Detroit , I became familiar with Compton
because of the rap scene andthe musicians that come out of
here.
Have you had any interactionsfrom the Kendrick Lamar's today
to the whole school of?

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
Eazy-E and so on.
So I do know Eazy-E's son.
You know Eazy-E was gone waybefore you know.
And Ice Cube he goes.
He doesn't really come back.
But Ice Cube's not from Compton, he's originally not from
Compton, yeah, but Dr Dre hasdone a lot of work in the city
of Compton.
I haven't had a chance to meethim firsthand.

(01:09:12):
Kendrick and I met when theygave him the key to the city and
I did the opening prayer forthat, and then we worked on a
couple of projects but never met.
So he was a part of this serieson vice I don't know what
station that is but when it dida whole documentary about

(01:09:33):
Compton and the evolving ofCompton.
So I know that we are always inthe same circles, right, even
though I haven't necessarily metthem.
But we all know of each otherand I know that because some
common people will be like yeah,they know who you are.
Our church is just known.
I mean, if you grew up inCompton, my dad did a good job

(01:09:53):
in making sure that we would bea light that shines bright.
So I'm proud of them, I'm proudof what they're doing,
especially Kendrick Lamar man,that's just.
I love how he's using hisplatform to speak for the people
that can't speak for themselves.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
Yeah, what's on your plate?
I know we talked about theconference earlier.
What's some of the other thingsthat you're passionate about in
these coming days, weeks,months and years?

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Well, now coming days , weeks, months and years.
Well, now that we're gettingolder, um, I'm passionate.
I'm passionate aboutdiscipleship, man.
Yeah, I don't want to do thisuntil I'm old.
I mean, I don't know your goalsand everyone else's goals, but
I'm not dying in the pulpit, um.
So I actually want to use maybethe next 15 years 20 if they
pray real hard and just know I'mpraying against that but 15

(01:10:40):
years of just discipling andraising up the next generation,
pouring into them the thingsthat I've learned and preparing
them to be able to take thereins and move it forward.
And also with the branding piece, the Fisher brand, which you
guys can go towwwthefisherbrandcom if you need

(01:11:01):
any help in brandingconsultation.
I'm really passionate aboutthat helping people to brand
themselves so that the world asa large, the marketplace, which
I believe is where the next moveof God really is going to
happen, will be receptive to thechurch.
But they got to fix some stuffso that they look presentable.

(01:11:22):
They slip, as shown, so, yeah,so that's what I'm passionate
about, man.
And then, lastly, just gettingstronger and strengthening
relationships like this.
You know me enough to know thatI can be an island real easy,
you know.

(01:11:42):
And for those that's listening,hurt has always been like man
let's hang out, let's just standtogether, even though he don't
mean it.
But then you know, let's hangout, and then I'm the one that's
that'll pull away.
But so I want to use the nextlike 15 years to really like
reestablish those, thoserelationships.

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
As I said earlier, that's some form of bullying.
I'm not sure what it is.
It's some form of bullying,slash, trolling, slash, you know
, making stuff up.
They got a word in there calledlying for that, but I
definitely feel that same thingas it relates to insulating

(01:12:21):
yourself, using busyness not tocultivate relationships as an
excuse.
It's really for those as maybelistening, not understand the
statement.
Don't worry about it, preachersare, all we got is each other,
and so when we are not infellowship with each other, when

(01:12:43):
we're not in partnership witheach other and that doesn't mean
coming your anniversary,exchanging checks and stuff like
that, right, it means just howyou doing yes, let's go get
something to eat, let's laugh,let's eat, let's laugh, let's
not, let's talk about ministry.
Then sometimes, let's not talkabout ministry, let's talk about
life, let's sometimes not talkabout life and um, being more

(01:13:07):
conscious and doing that becauseit's easy for us to use
preaching, counseling, pastoring, x, y, z, all these other
endeavors as an excuse and as anescape.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
Excuse and escape Because we're all going through
the same thing.
We're going through the samething and you don't really
realize how much you need thepreacher until it's your turn.
And every preacher, if you arelistening, you will have a turn.
It's never if.
It's never if.
It's never if and that's whatI'll tell anyone it's never if

(01:13:44):
you're going to have a turn.
It's never if they're going toleave you.
It's never.
If something's going to comeout about you or be made up
about you, it's never if it'swhen you will have a turn.
And so what I've learned isthat when you isolate yourself
and you put yourself on anIsland, especially when things
are good and you think you'reuntouchable, then when you go,

(01:14:07):
when you have your turn, it'sreally hard to get through it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Yes, that dark night feeling.
You know, either you die andbecome the hero, live long
enough and become the villain.
Right, if you hear long enough,your good is going to be
equated to evil.
Your bad is going to beaccentuated to evil, more evil
than what it really was.
The thing that they would dofor their favorite celebrity,

(01:14:34):
their cousin, and humanizationand empathy will not be also
shared with you, However, howmuch you may have no.
So you know it's like man, Ishould just snitch on all y'all
because I done worked throughstuff with you, be it your
family, your finances, yourmarriage.
And so now that the shoe is nowon the other foot and you know

(01:15:01):
how pastors and preachers andcertainly you alluded to that
kids are treated in the contextof the church, because they'll
do stuff to the kids that theyknow not to do or dare not to do
to the pastor or the pastor'swife to do or dare not to do to
the pastor or the pastor's wifesometimes they do it to the

(01:15:21):
pastor's wife as well thatthey'll do that to the children
as their vehicle of vengeance.
And so it's back to our initialstatement that we need each
other because we understandthat's what we signed up for,
and if you don't know that whenyou signed up, you'll eventually
oh no.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
You'll find out.
Oh, no, no no.

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):
You'll find out.
You'll find out real quick.
No, no, no, no, no.
You're going to find out, don'tworry about it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
No, you'll find out real quick Do you own the menu.
You just don't know it yet.
And they said, the conferenceof preachers.
They said, if you were smart,if I threw my keys to my church
to you, you'll throw it rightback.
You would so you know, that'sgood.

(01:16:07):
You know.
The higher you get quoteunquote on how we measure higher
, in very superficial ways, Imean the more of those things
are accentuated.
So that's even desperate andeven deeper in me, the more
profound need for thoserelationships and partnerships.

(01:16:28):
I'm in the midst of six weeks,two six weeks, with a six week
back sabbatical right now, andyou know we talked about
transparency.
Before taking a sabbatical, Ifelt like I was dying.
I felt like I was just this.
This gotta be what death feltlike.

(01:16:49):
Not sick, not metal medically,from a medical standpoint, not
really a mental health type ofthing, just felt burnt out.
Burnt, burnt out.
Meets, overwhelmed meets.
I want to slap somebody meets.
You know, am I really lowself-esteem?

(01:17:11):
Am I really impacting?
Is it time to look other places?
Do other things?
As it relates to ministrycontacts, am I being helpful?
Am I being impactful?
A lot of times people don'tunderstand, like when you look
at our crowds, it's not thatwe're trying to.
Oh, we're branding ourselvesbetter, but it comes to the

(01:17:34):
point where you may be likethey're not listening to me.
That's why they're not here,they don't care about what I say
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:17:40):
You start taking things personal.
But, that's because we're nothealed a lot of times from a lot
of things.
You know, when we talk aboutsomething, we just skipped on
some of the things I wentthrough, like growing up right,
growing up right.
The problem that I didn'trealize until I went to

(01:18:01):
counseling was I was pastoringand I had never dealt with my
own trauma.
The problem that happens if youdon't deal with your trauma
when you pastor, you startpastoring from your trauma and,
not even knowing it, you starttaking things personal.
You start applying that what'shappening in your church is a
remix of what happened with yourfamily, things of that nature.
So, you know, you reach a pointwhere you don't process and

(01:18:26):
then you reach burnout.
So, I'm glad you're taking thesabbatical.
I take them now whenever I feellike it.
Greater Zion knows there's noguarantee that you're going to
see me and they appreciate it.
Yeah, you know, and I throwpeople up there.
I'm like good luck, go ahead.
You know, preach, get yourstudy on you know, I mean we've
done it man since 18 years old.

(01:18:46):
You know, come on now.
You know, take as manysabbaticals as you need, because
we need the healthiest versionof you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:52):
Yeah, what?
What led you to go to go andseek counseling?

Speaker 3 (01:18:59):
Oh yeah, cause I definitely was going to hurt
somebody, for sure.
Um, as you know, for a longtime you guys would keep getting
the angry version of me.
You know I was.
I would come into theconference ready for it.
You know I wouldn't giveanybody the gas, you know, and I
was the guy to do it.
You know there's a couple oftimes you.

Speaker 2 (01:19:20):
You would see me like dang bitch you didn't have to
do that guy like that.

Speaker 3 (01:19:22):
You know one particular preacher I won't say
nothing to.
You know, I slapped his handwhen he tried to shake my hand.
I was like the conference, youknow, um, but yeah, I needed to
go find out.
What was that, what, what isthat?
And the altar calls weren'tdoing it Right.
So I went to counseling and Iprayed and God led me to a
counselor that I've been withever since 2019.

(01:19:44):
I knew I really needed to goget counseling when my father
passed because I wasn't grievingproperly, and since then it's
the best thing that could havehappened to me.
I locked a lot of things, Iforgave myself about a lot of
stuff, took charge of a lot ofstuff, and I started handling
certain things that needed to behandled over here, so I didn't
have to play that out over there.
And so I'm sitting here goingoff on you, because the truth of

(01:20:09):
the matter is I haven't spoken,I haven't advocated for myself
to my older brother over here,you see, and so when I started
putting all that stuff in place,I love it now, man.
So I go to counseling I sure do.
I go every week too, praise Godman Work.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Thank, thank you.
Uh, that work at people findyou.
Where can people find thechurch?
How can people get connected?
Social media handle address,website, social security number,
cell phone, height, weight,date of birth, whatever you got
to do is your time, bro, is this?
Tinder All right.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
I don't know what that is.
Then why'd you laugh?
I don't know, right here.
Whatever ultimate warrior, okay, then why'd you laugh?

Speaker 3 (01:20:57):
I don't know Ultimate Warrior okay, anyway yeah.
So, yeah, I'm five and I'm justplaying.
You can get in touch with me onInstagram.
That's why I am.
I'm not on Facebook.
That, yeah, done with that.
I'm on Instagram, though underMichael JT Fisher.
All right, michael JT Fisher.
And then, as far as the websitefor my LLC is

(01:21:20):
wwwthefisherbrandcom and you canhire me to be a consultant for
any of your branding needs foreither yourself, your staff,
your ministry or your business,then as far as the church is
concerned in Compton, we'relocated at 2408 North Wilmington
Avenue, compton, california,right there on El Segundo in

(01:21:42):
Wilmington, at the entrance ofthe city of Compton, and our
service times are every Sundayat 930 am, and on first Sundays
we do 930 am and 5 pm, and thenfor all our other campuses, you
just go to our website atwwwgzcfamilyorg.
All right, and if you want togive, you can go there too.

(01:22:02):
Yes, sir, it can be a blessingas well.

Speaker 2 (01:22:05):
So those are all the places that you can find me.
No phone numbers for you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
Good ground, good ground, so listen.
Thank you for tuning in toanother episode of Nuance
Conversations.
Be on the lookout for upcomingepisodes and the way that you
can support this media companyas well and the various things
that we're trying to do for theglory of the Lord.
Thank you to our beloved guesttoday for sharing with us not

(01:22:32):
just information but himself,and so many will be blessed by
him doing so.
God bless y'all.
We out.