May 28, 2024 • 37 mins
Jennifer Jukanovich, a seasoned nonprofit leader with nearly three decades of experience discusses her forthcoming book, The Culturally Conscious Board: Setting the Boardroom Table for Impact, which explores the importance of board culture in achieving organizational success. The conversation addresses a number of important aspects of board governance, including board culture and the critical role of trust and humility.
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Big Ideas/Thoughts/Quotes
1. The Culturally Conscious Board
· Two important concepts which are emphasized:
o The significance of board culture and its impact on decision-making and governance, and the role of trust, humility, and hospitality in building an effective board culture.
o Jennifer’s closing thoughts on the importance of strong board culture in the nonprofit sector.
· Encouragement for boards to engage in deeper conversations and continuous improvement.
· Introduction to the "board culture placemat" and its use in facilitating board discussion and b building a strong board culture.
· Examples of successful practices for building and maintaining a healthy board culture.
"Boards are assets to our society, and our hope is that our book, The Culturally Conscious Board, will contribute to that conversation." Jennifer Jukanovich
Book Reviews
“Sitting on a board is easy. But being a great board member is another matter entirely, especially if your organization needs change. Jukanovich and West show you how to do it with confidence and grace.”
Arthur C. Brooks, Professor, Harvard Kennedy School and Harvard Business School, and #1 New York Times bestselling author
“‘Culture eats strategy for breakfast,’ Drucker said, and most boards don’t explore how their culture either detracts from or advances their mission. This work invites boards to move from habits and traditions that restrict their impact toward deeper examinations to make wise changes and meet the challenges of our day.”
Robert C. Andringa, Managing Partner, The Andringa Group, and coauthor of Nonprofit Board Answer Book
2. Challenges and Opportunities in Board Governance
o The importance of diverse representation and an inclusive board culture.
o Practical advice on improving board culture, including transparency, accountability, and feedback mechanisms.
o Addressing issues such as long-term leadership and the balance between large boards and effective decision-making.
"Humility catalyzes greater trust, wh
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello and welcome to On Boards, a deepdive at what drives business success.
I'm Joe Ayoub and I'm herewith my co-ost, Raza Shaikh.
Twice a month, On Boards is the place tolearn about one of the most critically
important aspects of any company ororganization; its board of directors
or advisors, with a focus on theimportant issues that are facing boards,
(00:28):
company leadership, and stakeholders.
Joe and I speak with a wide range ofguests and talk about what makes a board
successful or unsuccessful, what it meansto be an effective board member, and
how to make your board one of the mostvaluable assets of your organization.
Our guest today is Jennifer Jukanovich.
(00:49):
Jennifer brings nearly three decadesof domestic and international nonprofit
leadership and board experienceto her role as managing partner of
Ambactus Global Solutions, whichharnesses the power of connection to
solve complex problems in governance,international development, and
(01:09):
education through trust-based solutions.
Jennifer actively works with a diverserange of nonprofit clients, serves
as a coach and faculty for the M.J.
Murdock Charitable Trust, andis the co-investigator for the
internationally-celebrated 2020Global Leadership and Organizational
(01:32):
Behavior Effectiveness Project.
She is also an active board member andvolunteered with several nonprofits.
And Jennifer is the co-author of aforthcoming book, The Culturally Conscious
Board (01:46):
Setting the Boardroom Table for Impact, which will be published
on September 3rd of this year, 2024.
Welcome, Jennifer.
It's great having you as our guest today.
Thank you, Joe and Raza.
I am delighted to be here, and honored.
Thank you.
Thanks.
Before we begin to talk about thebook, I did want to mention one thing
(02:10):
that I left out in your backgroundis that you for a time were the vice
president for student life at GordonCollege, where you met with our friend,
Alexander Lowry, our friend and formerpodcaster who introduced you to us, and
I want to just give him a shout out.
I'm sorry he's not podcasting anymore,but thanks for the great introduction.
So, let's start then with thebook you've co-authored, The
(02:33):
Culturally Conscious Board.
First, congratulations.
We'll talk about it later, but Ithink it's amazing that from inception
to publication, it was somethinglike a year, which kind of blows
my mind because it takes us almostthat long to get a few episodes
out, and this is quite an endeavor.
But let's talk about howthe book came into being.
(02:56):
How did this start, wherewere you working, and how
did it evolve into a book?
Sure.
Well, first again,thank you for having me.
As you said, boards are assets toour society and our hope is that our
book, The Culturally Conscious Board,will contribute to that conversation.
I was working at Gordon College, andso I'm very grateful to have had the
(03:20):
privilege of working with AlexanderLowry, and I left the college in 2019
and started a PhD in global leadershipand change through Pepperdine University,
and I also did some coaching throughthe Murdoch Trust, which I was aware of.
We lived in Seattle for many years andthe Murdoch Trust has an incredible
(03:41):
reputation in the Pacific Northwest ininvesting in the nonprofit sector, and
so it is a real privilege for me to beserving as one of their board coaches.
They have really seen the impact thatboards make on nonprofits, and so
while they of course are over a billiondollar foundation that invests in the
Northwest, they have seen that theirbest investment is building board
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capacity, and so I got involved with them.
And because I was doing coursework forPepperdine University, and we had to
develop a curriculum, I was recognizingthat there was a gap in their training for
boards and that it had to do with culture,and you all are familiar with the National
Association for Corporate Directors andand they've even said that 30% of those
(04:27):
they surveyed are seeing this as anincreased need to focus on board culture.
So, while my initial training wasoriginally around, "Okay, how can
we build a more diverse board?
How can we bring in more representationthat reflects different voices," I soon
found that there's so much depth tounderstanding board culture, and as we
developed this training and I did itwith my colleague, Russell West, who is
(04:51):
a former dean at Asbury University andhe's also working in the international
development sector, we realized thatas we were doing our training on board
culture, we were getting such positivefeedback because we were really trying to
have a conversation around hospitality,actually, and how to build trust with
(05:12):
people, and that was really resonatingwith boards who were on the spectrum,
to be honest, from political persuasionsto what they thought of DEI, and yet
when we use language around hospitality,around trust, around humility, it
was as if everyone could resonate andsee themselves in the conversation.
(05:33):
So, the vice president for boardleadership and development at Murdoch,
Kimberly Thornberry, was like,"I think there's a book in here.
I feel like we need to get thismessage out to more organizations,"
and thankfully, their former CEO,Steve Moore, and their new CEO,
Romanita Hairston, really believed init and so encouraged us along the way.
(05:56):
Then I happened to meet Neal Mailletfrom Berrett-Koehler Publishers at
the Academy of Management, where I waspresenting on my dissertation, and to
be honest, you guys, he said, "Boardbooks don't usually sell very well.
I won't lie
But write it anyway.
I know, but because we use a businessfable, a story, he was really intrigued
(06:16):
and he's like, "Send me a proposal," andso that was our fast track, I won't lie.
It was a very intense holiday seasonfor me as Russell and I brought
to life much of what we have beendoing over the last three years.
So, I want to say the concept that boardculture is so critical to an effective
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board has really come to the forefrontof conversation, and as you mentioned,
the most recent blue ribbon report by theNACD is called Culture as the Foundation:
Building a High-Performance Board.
I think it's fantastic that there isso much focus on culture because at the
(06:58):
end of the day, without strong culture,boards cannot reach their full potential.
Now, one of the comments on the book wasthat mission-based, socially-responsible
and transformational organizationsare needed more today than ever.
I think that's true and Ithink it's a great comment.
Why do you think that is true?
(07:19):
Well, I believe that we've hadperiods of division in our country.
We've had periods of polarization in ourcountry, but we are definitely in a unique
period of time, and those organizationsthat are serving at the grassroots level
that are trying to contribute to thecommon good are even under more, more
(07:40):
pressure, and yet we need them more.
The CEO of Murdoch talks about how we needislands of sanctuary in our culture, and
how the social transformation sector hasa unique opportunity of being that because
you are bringing together strangersfrom so many different walks of life
when you come together around a commonmission, and what a unique opportunity
(08:04):
that is to, I think, be that island ofsanctuary in a time of such division.
I know you and your family spenttime in Rwanda doing social impact
work actually, and I'm wonderingjust to what extent that may have
had an impact on your perspective.
We could have a whole other podcast juston that topic, but I think for me, what it
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drove home is that whether you are doing asocial impact business or you're involved
in a nonprofit, it has to be about the oneyou're serving because lives are at stake.
Not every nonprofit, of course,has a life and death situation.
There are those nonprofits that workin the arts and culture building, but
there are many nonprofits that areserving the poorest of the poor, and
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if our decision making as a nonprofitis all about only at half capacity
because our culture isn't an asset.
It's actually becoming a liabilityin our decision making, then
that one being served is harmed.
So, whether it's the Rwandan farmer who'sout planting Moringa seeds or the woman
who's sewing textile and trying to putfive of her kids in school, I have those
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faces literally engraved in my mind.
of some of the poorest of the poor thatwe've met and had the privilege of walking
alongside and so these are not numbersor strangers to me, they are friends
and I want to see their lives flourish.
The decision making that occurs fornonprofits or for-profits, how important
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is that in the success of an organization?
Well, boards, their onetask is to make decisions.
It's to make decisions regardingpolicies that govern how an organization
does something, and we laugh, like,of course, that's what boards do, but
how many times are our decisions donein at half capacity because of the
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way in which we make decisions or theway in which we stifle voices that
actually really need to be at the table?
If you're making a decision abouthealthcare services in another country,
but you're not actually hearing fromthose voices in that country, that's
going to impact your on the ground work,and so that's why we just believe that
(10:17):
the decision making is so important.
Does the culture of a board play animportant role in the board's ability
to make good decisions and to havea good decision making process?
Oh, absolutely.
And I think we've even seen in this lastweek, so I came most recently from the
higher education world so everythingthat's going on this week on campuses
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around our country, I think are a verycurrent example of how important board
culture is, because if you are having tomake a decision in crisis, in some ways,
the decision making has already been done,like it's very hard, you have to have a
healthy culture that is very trustworthy,that's very transparent, that's very
accountable, and where your policies arereally stewarding your mission, and so I
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think we're seeing that even today howimportant board culture is to a decision.
And boards, they're being put on thehot seat a lot more today, especially in
light of social media than they were inthe past, so that's where I think having
a healthy board culture is even moretimely because your decisions are going
to be analyzed in a very public way.
(11:31):
When you look at board culture,what are you looking at?
How do you identify whata board's culture is?
What are the componentsthat make up board culture?
Well, the culture is what you do and howyou do it, and so there are the things
that we talk about in the CulturallyConscious Board, we talk about the things
that are on the table and then we talkabout the things that are off the table.
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There are ways in which culture is livedout, whether it's in your Robert's Rules
of Order, or it's in your policies,your agendas, your expectations of board
members, those are all the artifacts ofyour organization, so those are things
that speak to the culture, and then thereare those things that are the way in
which you actually do things or the wayin which you actually make decisions,
(12:15):
One of the things we discussed whenwe talked recently was that a critical
part of board culture is to makesure that everyone's voice is heard.
Talk a little bit about that.
Why is it important?
But how does a board cultureencourage that and what do board
members or board chairs do tomake sure that's really occurring?
(12:36):
It is so important.
It's important to have open conversations,and my friend Doug Crandall wrote this
book, Permission to Speak Freely, likeit's important to have a culture in which
everyone has permission to speak freely,and yet the challenge of the board is
they have to speak with a unified voice.
You can't leave a board meeting andthen have everyone disagree publicly.
When a decision is made, it's made.
(12:57):
So, what can a board chair do?
I think it's important to have feedbackloops, and I've seen people go around
the room or having a survey at the endof their board meetings to ensure that
voices were heard, because we're allbringing our own cultures to the table as
well, and especially as boards get morediversified, everyone wants to be diverse.
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But when someone speaks up whosevoice maybe hasn't been heard in the
past, are we ready to receive that?
And even in some cultures, authoritystructures are viewed in different ways,
and so how does the board chair understanda new board member's perspective who
maybe has, in their culture, you wouldsit back and listen more than speak
up, and so that requires a board chairto really know his or her members
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and taking the time to meet with themindividually as well as corporately.
Yeah, it's a great point.
Actually, the board chair really doesneed to know the members of the board well
enough to understand what it takes to getthem to actually let their voice be heard.
I mean, you're right, at the end ofthe day, once you vote, everyone has to
leave the room with a unified voice, butuntil then there's no point in having
(14:06):
a board if every voice is not heard.
One of the things we talkedabout was that good things can
happen outside the boardroom.
So, one of the questions that's come up afew times during this last few years is to
what extent the proliferation of virtualboard members impacts board culture.
(14:27):
What are your thoughts about that?
I'm a huge believer in in-person as muchas possible because there's so much that
is missed in body language and in gesturesand so I am a huge believer in that, but
virtual board meetings have also been veryhelpful to actually increasing attendance
sometimes for people who cannot attend.
(14:49):
Even myself as a mother withyoung children, I remember going
to board meetings were alwaysscheduled like at five o'clock.
How am I supposed to get thereand pick up my kids and so virtual
meetings made my attendance increase.
But also they're all those like littlesidebar conversations that people do
have that help build trust and thatsocial capital that you need, and so
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there are positives and negatives.
I've seen in terms of how we say thingsget done versus how they really get done.
We had a client whose executive committeewas really running everything, and yet
they said that they were serving at thepleasure of the board, but really it was
the opposite way, like the way in whichthings really got done, and it wasn't
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until someone had the courage to speakup and address that and show data to
show how that was impacting the boardthat things changed, and so we have to be
willing to have those hard conversationsabout how things really get done.
Well, I think part of what happens withan executive committee or executive
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board is that it's a lot easier withfive people to make decisions than
it is with a large board, and whatI've observed is that especially on
nonprofit boards, because they're often,in fact, almost always fundraising
boards, that they're very large.
And when boards are very large, itcan be very frustrating and so the
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temptation, I'm not justifying it,is to let the executive committee
do it because they can get it done.
In a way, it's a shortcut.
You have a big board because you need toraise the funds and then you're ignoring a
lot of board members to get the job done.
I'm not sure what one does about that,but what can a board do about that?
(16:34):
Because size is not always dictatedby what's optimal for decision making.
Sometimes there are otheraspects including fundraising.
So, how do you balance getting thejob done with a large board with
still allowing voices to be heard?
Well, I do believe, as you said thatmany nonprofit boards are often too
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large and we've seen this in the worldof higher education, especially because
you're trying to, you do have tofundraise, and so I have found myself
asking, how do we actually reduce boardsize to make it more effective so that
there are those honest conversationsbecause with 30 people around a hollow
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square, it's very challenging tomake sure all those voices are heard.
But are there ways in whichwe can use advisory councils?
Are there ways in which we can usefundraising committees to actually build
friends of the mission in such a way wherethat goal of fundraising is accomplished
more effectively, if that really is yourgoal, or just being honest with why you're
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really bringing people onto the board.
But personally, I have found those 20-to 30-member boards challenging from
a very just practical way, so that hasmade me more of a believer in advisory
boards, which are also a really greatway to diversify and to bring in new
voices that you haven't heard before.
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Jennifer, in your book, you have thismetaphor of setting the table, and you
use this as a tool for conversations.
Talk about what those conversationsare and what is the setting the table
paradigm or your coaching of the boards.
If you know me, which we're gettingto know one another, so that's great,
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you would find out that hospitality isjust a huge part of who I am and in its
truest sense of welcoming the stranger.
So, throughout my life, thathas been a common theme.
So, that metaphor of setting thetable really comes from language of
hospitality, and some might say, whatdoes that have to do with the board?
But we all come to that metaphoricaltable, that boardroom table, and so in The
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Culturally Conscious Board, we are asking,can you claim your seat at the table?
Is there a place for you to actuallyspeak with authority to steward
the mission that you've been given?
And if not, then weneed to examine why not.
We're saying, "Come claim your seat.
Use your voice for this missionaround which we've gathered".
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Because that's really what we'retalking about is this mission, and so
we offer boards a chance to practicehow they can move forward as stewards
of the decision making tasks thatthey have around the table, and so
we've done that in the format of whatwe call the board culture placemat.
Actually, if you go toCulturallyConsciousBoard.com, you
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will be able to download your veryown placemat, which will really come
to this conversation starters becausethat's what happens around the table,
and so it's organized around a five-partlogic model that we've developed and
we move through five areas of identity,intention, invitation, investment, and
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impact, and we believe that as you movethrough these conversations, you'll
unpack some of your own board culture.
It's not prescriptive.
It's not an evaluation.
It's more of an assessment of whereyou're at, and actually in the book, at
the end of each chapter, we have evenmore questions that you can use during a
board retreat to help you unpack and makementionable many of the things in our
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culture that aren't often mentionable.
So, our hope is to help boardsdeepen their cultural capacity and
take notice of the diversity ofperspective that its members have in
order to surface those in a safe way.
Yeah, that sounds like a really greatconversational tool for boards to have.
Once a board has a culture, youwant to make it better, hopefully,
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if you saw things lacking.
Maybe we can talk a little bit of somepractical advice on improving or building
board culture, maybe some examples ofpractices, things like improving trust
or things that erode trust, how to getvoices heard, so any practical advice
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and examples for improving board culture?
Yeah, so we are a big believer in therole of trust being developed on boards
and also coming in with a spirit ofhumility, actually, because humility
catalyzes greater trust, whether thatis your family or that's a board.
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So, at the board table, there are waysin which that trust is eroded, and
those are such things as gatekeepingand exclusion, determining who
is and who is not on the board.
Many times term limits, forexample, are used in a very
healthy way and very needed.
I was just talking to someone the otherday who was struggling on a board because
the board chair has been there 18 years.
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There are no term limits.
So, in terms of hearing new voicesthere, it's very challenging.
This is where board rubrics and pipelinesand mentorship are so important.
Then there's also trust-eroding practices.
We have our own biases.
We all have them when we comeinto a setting, and then if you
want to use the language aroundDEI, there's a lot of fatigue.
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I mean, I've seen boards where theywanted to honor becoming a more diverse
and inclusive environment, and one schoolthat we knew of did a climate survey
to determine, but the results were sonegative that actually the executive
committee decided we're not going toactually share this with the greater board
and we'll just keep working on it becausethere was fatigue, like, "Oh, gosh, once
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again, we're still not doing it right."
So, instead of being transparent, whichis one of the ways in which you build
trust, it became even greater riftbetween faculty and staff and students.
There are blindfolds that we allhave, and so we talk about those
in the book; gatekeeping and biasesand fatigue are just some of them,
but the ways in which we can improvetrust are some very simple practices.
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They are that accountability.
They are transparency.
It's listening with vulnerabilityto the people on your board and also
to making sure the board is hearingfrom the community that it's serving.
Yeah, that's a great list.
Just to add a few practical thingsthat I've seen use of executive
sessions for a more open conversationwithout management, having one-to-one
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meetings with other board members maybeoutside the boardroom, board dinners,
many, many other ways, so that thosesidebar conversations, those trust
building things can happen as they go.
I have a question though, 18 years asa chair, that seems very long, and as
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one of our guests once said, term limitsof any kind are type of rough justice.
But at some point, how is theregood governance if the same person
has been chair for that long?
I mean, what is the point inhaving an incredible board of
diverse perspective if the samevoice is leading it for that long?
I think that would justbe a big challenge,
(23:56):
Oh, it is.
I mean, this is again whereyour culture is determined.
I mean, we had one group where sadlya chair passed away, and it was very
tragic, very sudden, no one was prepared.
CEO successions and chair successions,that's a whole other conversation
and what was revealed though was eventhough the bylaws said, "Okay this is
(24:19):
how we move forward with our authoritystructure," there was such a clan
and family culture to a board that itactually was like, "Okay, we're not
really like kind of bylaws, my laws.
We're not really going to do it thatway because we're family, and this
is how we'll choose the next person."
That was eyeopening, but you don'tmess with the family, and I think
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even with someone who's been there18 years, oftentimes when people are
around at the founding or an inception,that is very hard to break those ties.
So, that's where those term limitscome into play for good governance.
I mean good governance creates health.
Good boundaries create healthy culture.
Yeah, I see.
(25:00):
Where there's a long history where peoplefeel like part of a family, it is easy
to be tethered to the past rather thanjust learning from the past, and that
can stop a board from really developingand from really advancing because they
were, I would say, afraid to let goof the things they think made them
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successful, and it's really important.
I mean, this is true in real families.
You got to move forward.
I mean, at some point,you've got to let your kids.
live their life.
You can't keep them home the wholetime, and I think with boards, it's
easy to just feel comfortable withthe same leadership and kind of not
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stirring the pot too much, but thereality is, if you're tethered to the
past, then you're really not advancing.
In the beginning, that the book is writtenin a narrative and includes a character.
So, talk a little bit aboutthat and how the book is written
and how the character's storyand journey goes in the book.
(26:05):
Well, meet Crystal.
She's a new board member.
Russell West and I believe strongly inthe power of story because even if I
was to sit across Joe, like from someonewho was the chair for 18 years, it would
be very hard for them, to be honest,sometimes to let go of that power.
But if they are actually readinga story, and maybe that character
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is there for 18 years, it speaksto them in a different way.
Sometimes we need story to holdup mirrors to ourselves, and so we
felt like a story would be powerful.
So, we introduced Crystal in the firstchapter and every chapter reveals a
different part of who she is and alsowho the other board members are, because
we each come to the table with our owncultures, our own history, and if we don't
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know one another, we might have thosebiases against another and and that can
make things really hard, and we're havingthose hard conversations in our broader
culture right now, and so we use storyto unpack some of the concepts of what
does it mean to build trust on a board?
What does it mean to come with humilityon a board for this character of Crystal?
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What a terrific way todo it in a storyline.
Thank you.
I learned it.
Well, this is my first book, soas you're writing a story, you
start to change as a person.
You start to see yourself inthe character, and the character
takes on a life of its own.
It's been a very almost therapeuticprocess too, because every story
that Crystal deals with is somethingRussell and I have seen, or coached
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on, or experienced, and so thestories that she is experiencing are
ones that we have known personally,so it's been quite a process.
We'll look forward to, The CulturallyConscious Board, the movie.
You will be a star, have a starring role.
That is something I'd look forward to.
We were talking before aboutthe importance of a board
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chair in helping board culture.
But when we talked recently, wetalked about the relationship
between the CEO and board chair inthose instances where they're not
the same person and how importantthat partnership can be in culture.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhy that is and how that works?
Well, the hiring of the CEO is the mostimportant decision a board makes, and
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we have all experienced or been in thoseroles and having someone to whom that CEO
is accountable to is really important.
The CEO is accountable to the board asa whole, but as we mentioned, there are
many people on the board, and so therole between the chair in determining
the culture of that organizationis super important because the CEO
works with the chair to develop theagenda, to develop the calendar of
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what is actually being discussed.
There is a lot of power in that.
As we talked about before, thoseagendas, like they sound so boring,
but they really do set culture.
It sets how much time is given to certaintopics, which topics, which metrics
do you look for in your dashboard.
All of those artifacts in the senseof our culture really help build
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accountability and transparency.
The CEO and the chair need to be alignedin the vision of the organization and its
mission and putting everything throughthat lens and then making sure there is
accountability to the greater board thatthe right information is being given.
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What is the evidence that there'sreal accountability in a board?
What would you see if a boardreally understood that it
was being held accountable?
I think it starts withthe orientation, actually.
I think it starts with an orientationof understanding what are our bylaws?
What are our standing policies?
What are the dashboards that we look atin the metrics and who do we hear from?
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I have many experiences withpositive forward culture, but
sometimes board members don't knowwhat the bylaws really are about.
I was talking with the board theother day and someone had signed
up to be on the board not realizingit was actually a private operating
foundation, not a nonprofit.
I mean, it's a nonprofit organizationbut there are different designations
and operating is different, and sobeing fully aware of what the bylaws
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are and the standing policies andthe dashboards, I think, provide good
accountability, and that comes withthe orientation in your onboarding,
and what is the onboarding that reallygives you ownership of the mission.
So, that's one of the conversations we askin our board culture placement in terms of
just understanding, is there an onboarding
(30:35):
When you're looking for board members,one of the things that you've mentioned
was that of course, skills andexperience are important, but that
third category that we often referto, other attributes, are actually
at least equally important because ithelps make sure that the people you're
bringing onto the board are a good fit.
And if there's not a good fit, a goodrelationship among board members, whatever
(31:00):
that might be for a particular board,then it really doesn't operate that well.
What kind of attributes do you look for?
So, the one we discuss in the bookis actually humility, I say that?
in okay, that's, youknow, like, what is that?
Like, it's, Is it weakness?
(31:22):
Is it a kind of weakness or And I actuallythink talk about this one guy, Barry
Rowan, who, um, has led Fortune 100companies and serves on many different
You look him up, go, um, like in flight,like if he's leading his corporation,
he's going to, um, recognize that he's apart of something greater than himself.
(31:45):
recognize there are limits to whathe knows that he needs other people,
that he is willing to grow and change.
and willing to fail andlearn from those mistakes.
And so I want to be lookingfor someone who's like that.
I want to bring on a board member whocomes in with a posture of humility,
because I know that that willactually help build trust on my board.
(32:07):
So, that's not always easy to find.
It's not a question that's often asked,having been through several recently.
Like it's, um,
Well, there's no question about that.
I don't know if you can really asksomeone if they have humility though.
No, how they, um, perceive themselvesand how they, to provide examples of
(32:30):
failure and what they have um, whenthey've taken risks and maybe failed.
What did they learn from it?
Um, ask who they in theiraccountability, uh, circle.
Yeah.
And actually, when I've done boardcandidate interviews, one of the questions
that I see a lot and have used a lot is,talk about how you operate in a boardroom,
and when people say, "I listen to whatother board members say," for example.
(32:53):
I know that sounds almost like aplatitude, but when you say it and
when you hear someone say it, and youknow they mean it, it does reflect
the kind of humility that you'retalking about, because you're in
a room with other people who areequal to you in terms of their vote.
And to your point, if you're going tohear every voice, you have to have a
(33:15):
lot of good listeners around the room.
Otherwise, what is the point ofhaving the board to begin with?
So, I think it's a great point.
I think humility is a great way to thinkabout what you're looking for that will
help make the dynamics in the room work.
Well, that goes back to the CEO, right,and the chair, because the tone that
(33:41):
book about, a It's actually a friendwho had this experience, but who, was
a new board uh, happened to be a womanand spoke when an issue came to her in
her wheelhouse, right area of expertiseand it was her first board meeting.
And so she speaks up.
Uh, Well, she comes to find outlater that in private, the CEO
(34:04):
and how dare that person speak up?
And don't they know kind of.
you wait like three board meetings tillyou know the culture before you speak
up," and thankfully someone did addressit and spoke up it's like, isn't that
why you brought this person on board?
meeting, there was a gentleman whowas watching the eyes of the executive
(34:25):
committee and was like, "Oh, those arethe real players, like those are the
ones that actually make the decisions.
I think I'll just sit back."
So, if two having this experiencein a board meeting, you know, it's
probably an unhealthy and so that'swhere I think the chair sets the
It is such bullshit to think thatsomeone should sit around for three
meetings and just listen and learn.
(34:47):
Clearly, there's a lot to learn ona new board, but if you have gone
through a process to identify andrecruit board members and you don't
want them to talk for the first fewmeetings, then I think you don't
understand what the board really is.
That seems like a 19th century idea
Oh Yeah.
(35:07):
But into DEI stuff, right?
Because
Right?
when are in versus reallywanting their voice to be heard?
And.
when they actually shake
really.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It does kind of let you know where therubber hits the road, because if you
talk the talk, you got to walk the walk.
And if the first thing that comes out ofyour mouth is, how dare she speak, I think
(35:28):
we kind of know where that person stood.
Is there anything else youwant to cover before we end?
Any final things you want to say oranything that you wanted to cover?
um, I, being grateful for uh, spendingan hour with you two, I, um, believe
so the importance of the social sectorand nonprofits and the work, the good
(35:51):
work that they are doing, um, whetherit is serving the poorest of the poor,
or it's providing bringing expressioninto our cities and communities.
Um, there's so much good.
To be and we want our culture tobe an asset and not liability.
Right?
And so my exhortation isjust to to encourage boards.
I hope they'll read TheCulturally Conscious Board.
(36:13):
I hope they'll check outCulturallyConsciousBoard.Com, but
that they will take the time tohave these deeper conversations
so that their work is even more
That is a great way toend the conversation.
It's been great speaking with you today.
Thanks so much for joining us.
And thank you all forlistening to On Boards with
our guest, Jennifer Jukanovich.
(36:34):
Please visit our websiteat OnBoardsPodcast.com.
That's OnBoardsPodcast.com.
We'd love to hear your comments,suggestions, and feedback.
And if you're not already a subscriber,please be sure to subscribe at
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whereveryou get your podcasts and remember
to leave us a five-star review.
Please stay safe and take careof yourselves, your families, and
(36:57):
your communities as best you can.
And we hope you'll tune in forthe next episode of On Boards.
Thanks.
Hello and welcome to On Boards, a deepdive at what drives business success.
I'm Joe Ayoub and I'm herewith my co-ost, Raza Shaikh.
Twice a month, On Boards is the place tolearn about one of the most critically
important aspects of any company ororganization; its board of directors
or advisors, with a focus on theimportant issues that are facing boards,
(00:28):
company leadership, and stakeholders.
Joe and I speak with a wide range ofguests and talk about what makes a board
successful or unsuccessful, what it meansto be an effective board member, and
how to make your board one of the mostvaluable assets of your organization.
Our guest today is Jennifer Jukanovich.
(00:49):
Jennifer brings nearly three decadesof domestic and international nonprofit
leadership and board experienceto her role as managing partner of
Ambactus Global Solutions, whichharnesses the power of connection to
solve complex problems in governance,international development, and
(01:09):
education through trust-based solutions.
Jennifer actively works with a diverserange of nonprofit clients, serves
as a coach and faculty for the M.J.
Murdock Charitable Trust, andis the co-investigator for the
internationally-celebrated 2020Global Leadership and Organizational
(01:32):
Behavior Effectiveness Project.
She is also an active board member andvolunteered with several nonprofits.
And Jennifer is the co-author of aforthcoming book, The Culturally Conscious
Board (01:46):
Setting the Boardroom Table for Impact, which will be published
on September 3rd of this year, 2024.
Welcome, Jennifer.
It's great having you as our guest today.
Thank you, Joe and Raza.
I am delighted to be here, and honored.
Thank you.
Thanks.
Before we begin to talk about thebook, I did want to mention one thing
(02:10):
that I left out in your backgroundis that you for a time were the vice
president for student life at GordonCollege, where you met with our friend,
Alexander Lowry, our friend and formerpodcaster who introduced you to us, and
I want to just give him a shout out.
I'm sorry he's not podcasting anymore,but thanks for the great introduction.
So, let's start then with thebook you've co-authored, The
(02:33):
Culturally Conscious Board.
First, congratulations.
We'll talk about it later, but Ithink it's amazing that from inception
to publication, it was somethinglike a year, which kind of blows
my mind because it takes us almostthat long to get a few episodes
out, and this is quite an endeavor.
But let's talk about howthe book came into being.
(02:56):
How did this start, wherewere you working, and how
did it evolve into a book?
Sure.
Well, first again,thank you for having me.
As you said, boards are assets toour society and our hope is that our
book, The Culturally Conscious Board,will contribute to that conversation.
I was working at Gordon College, andso I'm very grateful to have had the
(03:20):
privilege of working with AlexanderLowry, and I left the college in 2019
and started a PhD in global leadershipand change through Pepperdine University,
and I also did some coaching throughthe Murdoch Trust, which I was aware of.
We lived in Seattle for many years andthe Murdoch Trust has an incredible
(03:41):
reputation in the Pacific Northwest ininvesting in the nonprofit sector, and
so it is a real privilege for me to beserving as one of their board coaches.
They have really seen the impact thatboards make on nonprofits, and so
while they of course are over a billiondollar foundation that invests in the
Northwest, they have seen that theirbest investment is building board
(04:04):
capacity, and so I got involved with them.
And because I was doing coursework forPepperdine University, and we had to
develop a curriculum, I was recognizingthat there was a gap in their training for
boards and that it had to do with culture,and you all are familiar with the National
Association for Corporate Directors andand they've even said that 30% of those
(04:27):
they surveyed are seeing this as anincreased need to focus on board culture.
So, while my initial training wasoriginally around, "Okay, how can
we build a more diverse board?
How can we bring in more representationthat reflects different voices," I soon
found that there's so much depth tounderstanding board culture, and as we
developed this training and I did itwith my colleague, Russell West, who is
(04:51):
a former dean at Asbury University andhe's also working in the international
development sector, we realized thatas we were doing our training on board
culture, we were getting such positivefeedback because we were really trying to
have a conversation around hospitality,actually, and how to build trust with
(05:12):
people, and that was really resonatingwith boards who were on the spectrum,
to be honest, from political persuasionsto what they thought of DEI, and yet
when we use language around hospitality,around trust, around humility, it
was as if everyone could resonate andsee themselves in the conversation.
(05:33):
So, the vice president for boardleadership and development at Murdoch,
Kimberly Thornberry, was like,"I think there's a book in here.
I feel like we need to get thismessage out to more organizations,"
and thankfully, their former CEO,Steve Moore, and their new CEO,
Romanita Hairston, really believed init and so encouraged us along the way.
(05:56):
Then I happened to meet Neal Mailletfrom Berrett-Koehler Publishers at
the Academy of Management, where I waspresenting on my dissertation, and to
be honest, you guys, he said, "Boardbooks don't usually sell very well.
I won't lie
But write it anyway.
I know, but because we use a businessfable, a story, he was really intrigued
(06:16):
and he's like, "Send me a proposal," andso that was our fast track, I won't lie.
It was a very intense holiday seasonfor me as Russell and I brought
to life much of what we have beendoing over the last three years.
So, I want to say the concept that boardculture is so critical to an effective
(06:36):
board has really come to the forefrontof conversation, and as you mentioned,
the most recent blue ribbon report by theNACD is called Culture as the Foundation:
Building a High-Performance Board.
I think it's fantastic that there isso much focus on culture because at the
(06:58):
end of the day, without strong culture,boards cannot reach their full potential.
Now, one of the comments on the book wasthat mission-based, socially-responsible
and transformational organizationsare needed more today than ever.
I think that's true and Ithink it's a great comment.
Why do you think that is true?
(07:19):
Well, I believe that we've hadperiods of division in our country.
We've had periods of polarization in ourcountry, but we are definitely in a unique
period of time, and those organizationsthat are serving at the grassroots level
that are trying to contribute to thecommon good are even under more, more
(07:40):
pressure, and yet we need them more.
The CEO of Murdoch talks about how we needislands of sanctuary in our culture, and
how the social transformation sector hasa unique opportunity of being that because
you are bringing together strangersfrom so many different walks of life
when you come together around a commonmission, and what a unique opportunity
(08:04):
that is to, I think, be that island ofsanctuary in a time of such division.
I know you and your family spenttime in Rwanda doing social impact
work actually, and I'm wonderingjust to what extent that may have
had an impact on your perspective.
We could have a whole other podcast juston that topic, but I think for me, what it
(08:26):
drove home is that whether you are doing asocial impact business or you're involved
in a nonprofit, it has to be about the oneyou're serving because lives are at stake.
Not every nonprofit, of course,has a life and death situation.
There are those nonprofits that workin the arts and culture building, but
there are many nonprofits that areserving the poorest of the poor, and
(08:48):
if our decision making as a nonprofitis all about only at half capacity
because our culture isn't an asset.
It's actually becoming a liabilityin our decision making, then
that one being served is harmed.
So, whether it's the Rwandan farmer who'sout planting Moringa seeds or the woman
who's sewing textile and trying to putfive of her kids in school, I have those
(09:11):
faces literally engraved in my mind.
of some of the poorest of the poor thatwe've met and had the privilege of walking
alongside and so these are not numbersor strangers to me, they are friends
and I want to see their lives flourish.
The decision making that occurs fornonprofits or for-profits, how important
(09:32):
is that in the success of an organization?
Well, boards, their onetask is to make decisions.
It's to make decisions regardingpolicies that govern how an organization
does something, and we laugh, like,of course, that's what boards do, but
how many times are our decisions donein at half capacity because of the
(09:56):
way in which we make decisions or theway in which we stifle voices that
actually really need to be at the table?
If you're making a decision abouthealthcare services in another country,
but you're not actually hearing fromthose voices in that country, that's
going to impact your on the ground work,and so that's why we just believe that
(10:17):
the decision making is so important.
Does the culture of a board play animportant role in the board's ability
to make good decisions and to havea good decision making process?
Oh, absolutely.
And I think we've even seen in this lastweek, so I came most recently from the
higher education world so everythingthat's going on this week on campuses
(10:41):
around our country, I think are a verycurrent example of how important board
culture is, because if you are having tomake a decision in crisis, in some ways,
the decision making has already been done,like it's very hard, you have to have a
healthy culture that is very trustworthy,that's very transparent, that's very
accountable, and where your policies arereally stewarding your mission, and so I
(11:09):
think we're seeing that even today howimportant board culture is to a decision.
And boards, they're being put on thehot seat a lot more today, especially in
light of social media than they were inthe past, so that's where I think having
a healthy board culture is even moretimely because your decisions are going
to be analyzed in a very public way.
(11:31):
When you look at board culture,what are you looking at?
How do you identify whata board's culture is?
What are the componentsthat make up board culture?
Well, the culture is what you do and howyou do it, and so there are the things
that we talk about in the CulturallyConscious Board, we talk about the things
that are on the table and then we talkabout the things that are off the table.
(11:53):
There are ways in which culture is livedout, whether it's in your Robert's Rules
of Order, or it's in your policies,your agendas, your expectations of board
members, those are all the artifacts ofyour organization, so those are things
that speak to the culture, and then thereare those things that are the way in
which you actually do things or the wayin which you actually make decisions,
(12:15):
One of the things we discussed whenwe talked recently was that a critical
part of board culture is to makesure that everyone's voice is heard.
Talk a little bit about that.
Why is it important?
But how does a board cultureencourage that and what do board
members or board chairs do tomake sure that's really occurring?
(12:36):
It is so important.
It's important to have open conversations,and my friend Doug Crandall wrote this
book, Permission to Speak Freely, likeit's important to have a culture in which
everyone has permission to speak freely,and yet the challenge of the board is
they have to speak with a unified voice.
You can't leave a board meeting andthen have everyone disagree publicly.
When a decision is made, it's made.
(12:57):
So, what can a board chair do?
I think it's important to have feedbackloops, and I've seen people go around
the room or having a survey at the endof their board meetings to ensure that
voices were heard, because we're allbringing our own cultures to the table as
well, and especially as boards get morediversified, everyone wants to be diverse.
(13:17):
But when someone speaks up whosevoice maybe hasn't been heard in the
past, are we ready to receive that?
And even in some cultures, authoritystructures are viewed in different ways,
and so how does the board chair understanda new board member's perspective who
maybe has, in their culture, you wouldsit back and listen more than speak
up, and so that requires a board chairto really know his or her members
(13:41):
and taking the time to meet with themindividually as well as corporately.
Yeah, it's a great point.
Actually, the board chair really doesneed to know the members of the board well
enough to understand what it takes to getthem to actually let their voice be heard.
I mean, you're right, at the end ofthe day, once you vote, everyone has to
leave the room with a unified voice, butuntil then there's no point in having
(14:06):
a board if every voice is not heard.
One of the things we talkedabout was that good things can
happen outside the boardroom.
So, one of the questions that's come up afew times during this last few years is to
what extent the proliferation of virtualboard members impacts board culture.
(14:27):
What are your thoughts about that?
I'm a huge believer in in-person as muchas possible because there's so much that
is missed in body language and in gesturesand so I am a huge believer in that, but
virtual board meetings have also been veryhelpful to actually increasing attendance
sometimes for people who cannot attend.
(14:49):
Even myself as a mother withyoung children, I remember going
to board meetings were alwaysscheduled like at five o'clock.
How am I supposed to get thereand pick up my kids and so virtual
meetings made my attendance increase.
But also they're all those like littlesidebar conversations that people do
have that help build trust and thatsocial capital that you need, and so
(15:11):
there are positives and negatives.
I've seen in terms of how we say thingsget done versus how they really get done.
We had a client whose executive committeewas really running everything, and yet
they said that they were serving at thepleasure of the board, but really it was
the opposite way, like the way in whichthings really got done, and it wasn't
(15:32):
until someone had the courage to speakup and address that and show data to
show how that was impacting the boardthat things changed, and so we have to be
willing to have those hard conversationsabout how things really get done.
Well, I think part of what happens withan executive committee or executive
(15:53):
board is that it's a lot easier withfive people to make decisions than
it is with a large board, and whatI've observed is that especially on
nonprofit boards, because they're often,in fact, almost always fundraising
boards, that they're very large.
And when boards are very large, itcan be very frustrating and so the
(16:14):
temptation, I'm not justifying it,is to let the executive committee
do it because they can get it done.
In a way, it's a shortcut.
You have a big board because you need toraise the funds and then you're ignoring a
lot of board members to get the job done.
I'm not sure what one does about that,but what can a board do about that?
(16:34):
Because size is not always dictatedby what's optimal for decision making.
Sometimes there are otheraspects including fundraising.
So, how do you balance getting thejob done with a large board with
still allowing voices to be heard?
Well, I do believe, as you said thatmany nonprofit boards are often too
(16:55):
large and we've seen this in the worldof higher education, especially because
you're trying to, you do have tofundraise, and so I have found myself
asking, how do we actually reduce boardsize to make it more effective so that
there are those honest conversationsbecause with 30 people around a hollow
(17:15):
square, it's very challenging tomake sure all those voices are heard.
But are there ways in whichwe can use advisory councils?
Are there ways in which we can usefundraising committees to actually build
friends of the mission in such a way wherethat goal of fundraising is accomplished
more effectively, if that really is yourgoal, or just being honest with why you're
(17:37):
really bringing people onto the board.
But personally, I have found those 20-to 30-member boards challenging from
a very just practical way, so that hasmade me more of a believer in advisory
boards, which are also a really greatway to diversify and to bring in new
voices that you haven't heard before.
(17:57):
Jennifer, in your book, you have thismetaphor of setting the table, and you
use this as a tool for conversations.
Talk about what those conversationsare and what is the setting the table
paradigm or your coaching of the boards.
If you know me, which we're gettingto know one another, so that's great,
(18:19):
you would find out that hospitality isjust a huge part of who I am and in its
truest sense of welcoming the stranger.
So, throughout my life, thathas been a common theme.
So, that metaphor of setting thetable really comes from language of
hospitality, and some might say, whatdoes that have to do with the board?
But we all come to that metaphoricaltable, that boardroom table, and so in The
(18:43):
Culturally Conscious Board, we are asking,can you claim your seat at the table?
Is there a place for you to actuallyspeak with authority to steward
the mission that you've been given?
And if not, then weneed to examine why not.
We're saying, "Come claim your seat.
Use your voice for this missionaround which we've gathered".
(19:04):
Because that's really what we'retalking about is this mission, and so
we offer boards a chance to practicehow they can move forward as stewards
of the decision making tasks thatthey have around the table, and so
we've done that in the format of whatwe call the board culture placemat.
Actually, if you go toCulturallyConsciousBoard.com, you
(19:25):
will be able to download your veryown placemat, which will really come
to this conversation starters becausethat's what happens around the table,
and so it's organized around a five-partlogic model that we've developed and
we move through five areas of identity,intention, invitation, investment, and
(19:47):
impact, and we believe that as you movethrough these conversations, you'll
unpack some of your own board culture.
It's not prescriptive.
It's not an evaluation.
It's more of an assessment of whereyou're at, and actually in the book, at
the end of each chapter, we have evenmore questions that you can use during a
board retreat to help you unpack and makementionable many of the things in our
(20:09):
culture that aren't often mentionable.
So, our hope is to help boardsdeepen their cultural capacity and
take notice of the diversity ofperspective that its members have in
order to surface those in a safe way.
Yeah, that sounds like a really greatconversational tool for boards to have.
Once a board has a culture, youwant to make it better, hopefully,
(20:32):
if you saw things lacking.
Maybe we can talk a little bit of somepractical advice on improving or building
board culture, maybe some examples ofpractices, things like improving trust
or things that erode trust, how to getvoices heard, so any practical advice
(20:54):
and examples for improving board culture?
Yeah, so we are a big believer in therole of trust being developed on boards
and also coming in with a spirit ofhumility, actually, because humility
catalyzes greater trust, whether thatis your family or that's a board.
(21:15):
So, at the board table, there are waysin which that trust is eroded, and
those are such things as gatekeepingand exclusion, determining who
is and who is not on the board.
Many times term limits, forexample, are used in a very
healthy way and very needed.
I was just talking to someone the otherday who was struggling on a board because
the board chair has been there 18 years.
(21:37):
There are no term limits.
So, in terms of hearing new voicesthere, it's very challenging.
This is where board rubrics and pipelinesand mentorship are so important.
Then there's also trust-eroding practices.
We have our own biases.
We all have them when we comeinto a setting, and then if you
want to use the language aroundDEI, there's a lot of fatigue.
(21:59):
I mean, I've seen boards where theywanted to honor becoming a more diverse
and inclusive environment, and one schoolthat we knew of did a climate survey
to determine, but the results were sonegative that actually the executive
committee decided we're not going toactually share this with the greater board
and we'll just keep working on it becausethere was fatigue, like, "Oh, gosh, once
(22:23):
again, we're still not doing it right."
So, instead of being transparent, whichis one of the ways in which you build
trust, it became even greater riftbetween faculty and staff and students.
There are blindfolds that we allhave, and so we talk about those
in the book; gatekeeping and biasesand fatigue are just some of them,
but the ways in which we can improvetrust are some very simple practices.
(22:47):
They are that accountability.
They are transparency.
It's listening with vulnerabilityto the people on your board and also
to making sure the board is hearingfrom the community that it's serving.
Yeah, that's a great list.
Just to add a few practical thingsthat I've seen use of executive
sessions for a more open conversationwithout management, having one-to-one
(23:13):
meetings with other board members maybeoutside the boardroom, board dinners,
many, many other ways, so that thosesidebar conversations, those trust
building things can happen as they go.
I have a question though, 18 years asa chair, that seems very long, and as
(23:33):
one of our guests once said, term limitsof any kind are type of rough justice.
But at some point, how is theregood governance if the same person
has been chair for that long?
I mean, what is the point inhaving an incredible board of
diverse perspective if the samevoice is leading it for that long?
I think that would justbe a big challenge,
(23:56):
Oh, it is.
I mean, this is again whereyour culture is determined.
I mean, we had one group where sadlya chair passed away, and it was very
tragic, very sudden, no one was prepared.
CEO successions and chair successions,that's a whole other conversation
and what was revealed though was eventhough the bylaws said, "Okay this is
(24:19):
how we move forward with our authoritystructure," there was such a clan
and family culture to a board that itactually was like, "Okay, we're not
really like kind of bylaws, my laws.
We're not really going to do it thatway because we're family, and this
is how we'll choose the next person."
That was eyeopening, but you don'tmess with the family, and I think
(24:40):
even with someone who's been there18 years, oftentimes when people are
around at the founding or an inception,that is very hard to break those ties.
So, that's where those term limitscome into play for good governance.
I mean good governance creates health.
Good boundaries create healthy culture.
Yeah, I see.
(25:00):
Where there's a long history where peoplefeel like part of a family, it is easy
to be tethered to the past rather thanjust learning from the past, and that
can stop a board from really developingand from really advancing because they
were, I would say, afraid to let goof the things they think made them
(25:22):
successful, and it's really important.
I mean, this is true in real families.
You got to move forward.
I mean, at some point,you've got to let your kids.
live their life.
You can't keep them home the wholetime, and I think with boards, it's
easy to just feel comfortable withthe same leadership and kind of not
(25:43):
stirring the pot too much, but thereality is, if you're tethered to the
past, then you're really not advancing.
In the beginning, that the book is writtenin a narrative and includes a character.
So, talk a little bit aboutthat and how the book is written
and how the character's storyand journey goes in the book.
(26:05):
Well, meet Crystal.
She's a new board member.
Russell West and I believe strongly inthe power of story because even if I
was to sit across Joe, like from someonewho was the chair for 18 years, it would
be very hard for them, to be honest,sometimes to let go of that power.
But if they are actually readinga story, and maybe that character
(26:27):
is there for 18 years, it speaksto them in a different way.
Sometimes we need story to holdup mirrors to ourselves, and so we
felt like a story would be powerful.
So, we introduced Crystal in the firstchapter and every chapter reveals a
different part of who she is and alsowho the other board members are, because
we each come to the table with our owncultures, our own history, and if we don't
(26:50):
know one another, we might have thosebiases against another and and that can
make things really hard, and we're havingthose hard conversations in our broader
culture right now, and so we use storyto unpack some of the concepts of what
does it mean to build trust on a board?
What does it mean to come with humilityon a board for this character of Crystal?
(27:11):
What a terrific way todo it in a storyline.
Thank you.
I learned it.
Well, this is my first book, soas you're writing a story, you
start to change as a person.
You start to see yourself inthe character, and the character
takes on a life of its own.
It's been a very almost therapeuticprocess too, because every story
that Crystal deals with is somethingRussell and I have seen, or coached
(27:35):
on, or experienced, and so thestories that she is experiencing are
ones that we have known personally,so it's been quite a process.
We'll look forward to, The CulturallyConscious Board, the movie.
You will be a star, have a starring role.
That is something I'd look forward to.
We were talking before aboutthe importance of a board
(27:56):
chair in helping board culture.
But when we talked recently, wetalked about the relationship
between the CEO and board chair inthose instances where they're not
the same person and how importantthat partnership can be in culture.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhy that is and how that works?
Well, the hiring of the CEO is the mostimportant decision a board makes, and
(28:19):
we have all experienced or been in thoseroles and having someone to whom that CEO
is accountable to is really important.
The CEO is accountable to the board asa whole, but as we mentioned, there are
many people on the board, and so therole between the chair in determining
the culture of that organizationis super important because the CEO
works with the chair to develop theagenda, to develop the calendar of
(28:43):
what is actually being discussed.
There is a lot of power in that.
As we talked about before, thoseagendas, like they sound so boring,
but they really do set culture.
It sets how much time is given to certaintopics, which topics, which metrics
do you look for in your dashboard.
All of those artifacts in the senseof our culture really help build
(29:05):
accountability and transparency.
The CEO and the chair need to be alignedin the vision of the organization and its
mission and putting everything throughthat lens and then making sure there is
accountability to the greater board thatthe right information is being given.
(29:25):
What is the evidence that there'sreal accountability in a board?
What would you see if a boardreally understood that it
was being held accountable?
I think it starts withthe orientation, actually.
I think it starts with an orientationof understanding what are our bylaws?
What are our standing policies?
What are the dashboards that we look atin the metrics and who do we hear from?
(29:48):
I have many experiences withpositive forward culture, but
sometimes board members don't knowwhat the bylaws really are about.
I was talking with the board theother day and someone had signed
up to be on the board not realizingit was actually a private operating
foundation, not a nonprofit.
I mean, it's a nonprofit organizationbut there are different designations
and operating is different, and sobeing fully aware of what the bylaws
(30:11):
are and the standing policies andthe dashboards, I think, provide good
accountability, and that comes withthe orientation in your onboarding,
and what is the onboarding that reallygives you ownership of the mission.
So, that's one of the conversations we askin our board culture placement in terms of
just understanding, is there an onboarding
(30:35):
When you're looking for board members,one of the things that you've mentioned
was that of course, skills andexperience are important, but that
third category that we often referto, other attributes, are actually
at least equally important because ithelps make sure that the people you're
bringing onto the board are a good fit.
And if there's not a good fit, a goodrelationship among board members, whatever
(31:00):
that might be for a particular board,then it really doesn't operate that well.
What kind of attributes do you look for?
So, the one we discuss in the bookis actually humility, I say that?
in okay, that's, youknow, like, what is that?
Like, it's, Is it weakness?
(31:22):
Is it a kind of weakness or And I actuallythink talk about this one guy, Barry
Rowan, who, um, has led Fortune 100companies and serves on many different
You look him up, go, um, like in flight,like if he's leading his corporation,
he's going to, um, recognize that he's apart of something greater than himself.
(31:45):
recognize there are limits to whathe knows that he needs other people,
that he is willing to grow and change.
and willing to fail andlearn from those mistakes.
And so I want to be lookingfor someone who's like that.
I want to bring on a board member whocomes in with a posture of humility,
because I know that that willactually help build trust on my board.
(32:07):
So, that's not always easy to find.
It's not a question that's often asked,having been through several recently.
Like it's, um,
Well, there's no question about that.
I don't know if you can really asksomeone if they have humility though.
No, how they, um, perceive themselvesand how they, to provide examples of
(32:30):
failure and what they have um, whenthey've taken risks and maybe failed.
What did they learn from it?
Um, ask who they in theiraccountability, uh, circle.
Yeah.
And actually, when I've done boardcandidate interviews, one of the questions
that I see a lot and have used a lot is,talk about how you operate in a boardroom,
and when people say, "I listen to whatother board members say," for example.
(32:53):
I know that sounds almost like aplatitude, but when you say it and
when you hear someone say it, and youknow they mean it, it does reflect
the kind of humility that you'retalking about, because you're in
a room with other people who areequal to you in terms of their vote.
And to your point, if you're going tohear every voice, you have to have a
(33:15):
lot of good listeners around the room.
Otherwise, what is the point ofhaving the board to begin with?
So, I think it's a great point.
I think humility is a great way to thinkabout what you're looking for that will
help make the dynamics in the room work.
Well, that goes back to the CEO, right,and the chair, because the tone that
(33:41):
book about, a It's actually a friendwho had this experience, but who, was
a new board uh, happened to be a womanand spoke when an issue came to her in
her wheelhouse, right area of expertiseand it was her first board meeting.
And so she speaks up.
Uh, Well, she comes to find outlater that in private, the CEO
(34:04):
and how dare that person speak up?
And don't they know kind of.
you wait like three board meetings tillyou know the culture before you speak
up," and thankfully someone did addressit and spoke up it's like, isn't that
why you brought this person on board?
meeting, there was a gentleman whowas watching the eyes of the executive
(34:25):
committee and was like, "Oh, those arethe real players, like those are the
ones that actually make the decisions.
I think I'll just sit back."
So, if two having this experiencein a board meeting, you know, it's
probably an unhealthy and so that'swhere I think the chair sets the
It is such bullshit to think thatsomeone should sit around for three
meetings and just listen and learn.
(34:47):
Clearly, there's a lot to learn ona new board, but if you have gone
through a process to identify andrecruit board members and you don't
want them to talk for the first fewmeetings, then I think you don't
understand what the board really is.
That seems like a 19th century idea
Oh Yeah.
(35:07):
But into DEI stuff, right?
Because
Right?
when are in versus reallywanting their voice to be heard?
And.
when they actually shake
really.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It does kind of let you know where therubber hits the road, because if you
talk the talk, you got to walk the walk.
And if the first thing that comes out ofyour mouth is, how dare she speak, I think
(35:28):
we kind of know where that person stood.
Is there anything else youwant to cover before we end?
Any final things you want to say oranything that you wanted to cover?
um, I, being grateful for uh, spendingan hour with you two, I, um, believe
so the importance of the social sectorand nonprofits and the work, the good
(35:51):
work that they are doing, um, whetherit is serving the poorest of the poor,
or it's providing bringing expressioninto our cities and communities.
Um, there's so much good.
To be and we want our culture tobe an asset and not liability.
Right?
And so my exhortation isjust to to encourage boards.
I hope they'll read TheCulturally Conscious Board.
(36:13):
I hope they'll check outCulturallyConsciousBoard.Com, but
that they will take the time tohave these deeper conversations
so that their work is even more
That is a great way toend the conversation.
It's been great speaking with you today.
Thanks so much for joining us.
And thank you all forlistening to On Boards with
our guest, Jennifer Jukanovich.
(36:34):
Please visit our websiteat OnBoardsPodcast.com.
That's OnBoardsPodcast.com.
We'd love to hear your comments,suggestions, and feedback.
And if you're not already a subscriber,please be sure to subscribe at
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whereveryou get your podcasts and remember
to leave us a five-star review.
Please stay safe and take careof yourselves, your families, and
(36:57):
your communities as best you can.
And we hope you'll tune in forthe next episode of On Boards.
Thanks.
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