February 17, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of On Boards, hosts Joe Ayoub and Raza Shaikh welcome Dr. Angela Jackson, founder of Future Forward Strategies, an award-winning social entrepreneur, a global C-Suite executive, and an experienced board member. She discusses the board's role in holding leadership accountable for “people strategies” and ensuring companies remain competitive in a rapidly evolving business environment.
Her new book “The Win-Win Workplace: How Thriving Employees Drive Bottom-Line Success” will be published on March 11, 2025 and will be available from all major book retailers.
Key Takeaways
1. Workforce Wellbeing as a Strategy:
○ Dr. Jackson emphasizes the importance of viewing employee wellbeing as a core business strategy rather than just a set of HR policies, noting that companies with high employee wellbeing see 23% higher profitability and 43% lower turnover.
2. Board Oversight and Accountability:
○ Boards should regularly evaluate metrics such as employee engagement, retention rates, and turnover costs, and tie executive compensation to key people-related outcomes.
3. The Role of Inclusion and Investing in Employees:
○ Despite changes in external policies, companies should maintain their commitment to inclusion to foster trust, reduce risk and drive business outcomes
○ Staying proactive on workforce sentiment helps companies respond to potential risks before they escalate.
4. Grow Your Own Deep Talent Bench Strategy:
○ Developing internal talent pipelines reduces turnover by 40%, increases employee engagement by 20%, and builds a more resilient organization. Companies prioritizing internal mobility fill 63% of open roles internally and are 2.2x more likely to outperform competitors.
5. Mitigating Workforce-Related Risks:
○ Dr. Jackson highlights how companies can reduce legal risks and avoid reputational damage by staying consistent with core values and policies.
Quotes
“At its core, DEI was about creating workspaces where people could actually show up, be their best selves, and contribute. I’m not going to die on the sword of an acronym, but we must maintain that spirit.”
“Keeping our finger on the pulse of employee sentiment is going to be more important than ever. When there’s uncertainty at the highest levels in the country, that trickles down to the day to day.”
“Win-Win Workplace strategies protect companies from workforce instability, reputational damage, and labor crises in a tight labor market.”
“When employees love where they work and what they do
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello and welcome to On Boards, a deepdive at what drives business success.
I'm Joe Ayoub and I'm herewith my co-host, Raza Shaikh.
Twice a month, On Boards is a place tolearn about one of the most important
aspects of any company or organization- its board of directors or advisors, with
a focus on the important issues thatare facing boards, company leadership,
(00:29):
investors, and other stakeholders.
Joe and I speak with a wide range ofguests and talk about what makes a board
successful or unsuccessful, what it meansto be an effective board member, and
how to make your board one of the mostvaluable assets of your organization.
Before we introduce our guest, we wantto thank the law firm of Nutter McClennen
(00:52):
& Fish who are again sponsoring our OnBoards Summit taking place this year,
in the fall, again in their beautifulconference center in the Boston Seaport.
They've been incrediblepartners with us in every way.
We appreciate all they'vedone to support our podcast.
Our guest today is Dr. Angela Jackson.
(01:14):
Angela is the founder of FutureForward Strategies, a labor market
intelligence, design thinking andstrategy firm that assists leaders
with transforming organizationsand human capital infrastructure in
organizations to maintain competitivenesswhile creating positive impact.
(01:35):
She is also an award-winning socialentrepreneur, a global C-Suite executive,
and an experienced board member,
Angela is also a lecturer atthe Harvard Graduate School of
Education, and senior advisor tothe Harvard Project on Workforce.
Among the boards on which Angela serves isthe board of Needham Bank, located outside
(01:59):
of Boston, a board on which I also serve.
And she is the author of a new bookentitled The Win-Win Workplace, which
will be published on March 11th.
There is a book launch event hostedby Nutter McClennen & Fish and
co-sponsored by the On Boards Podcast,which is scheduled on March 26th, also
(02:22):
in the beautiful conference centerat Nutter's office in the Seaport.
Angela, welcome.
Thank you for joining us again.
It's great to have you back as a guest.
Oh, it's so great tobe back, Joe and Raza.
Thank you for the invitation.
So, let's start with thebook, the Win-Win Workplace.
(02:44):
We heard about it when you were onlast year and now it's being published.
Very exciting.
What led you to write the book?
What inspired you to write the book?
Yeah, I feel like I startedwriting this book when I was born.
I was raised by my grandfather whoworked at a Chrysler factory an hour
outside of Chicago, and I remembergrowing up and watching him when
(03:08):
he worked at that factory how hewas like a Chrysler factory man.
But I also watched when that factoryclosed down and left our community, and
it really struck on me the impact andthe role that work plays on one's life
and also in a family and a community.
And for me and thinking about Chrysler,they train their employees just to do
(03:31):
one thing and to do them really well.
My grandfather worked in a lot factoryline, and for me it was thinking
about what if we shifted that?
What does it look like when companiesactually invest in their workers?
And what does that do aroundsustainability and innovation?
And it's something that I'veresearched for over a decade now.
(03:53):
Wow, so the book has been gestatingfor years that it's exciting.
I love the book and I love what it says.
Great to hear that the backgroundgoes so far into your earlier life.
That's beautiful.
Before we talk about the book itself,let's talk about a couple of things
that kind of are background to the book.
(04:13):
One of the things we wantedto talk about is the political
impact on HR of federal policy.
How do federal government policychanges impact people policies?
Joe, thank you for asking that question.
I was just in DC this week at theBipartisan Policy Center for an event that
was called America's Workforce (04:34):
Creating a Blueprint for the Future, and what I was
so excited about this event is that youhad people from both sides of the aisle.
Federal policy actually really matters,and one thing that like rain clear
for me from this event, how we thinkabout our talent, how we're thinking
about investments as a country inour talent really determines our
(04:57):
economic viability, also our nationalsecurity, and it was really warming
and heartening to see that both sidesof the aisle were thinking that way.
We have to think about investmentsin workers and upskilling.
We have to think about creatingthe jobs of the future, how people
will understand those skills.
We have to think about workplaceconstraints that we have today and
(05:20):
what are some of those wraparoundsupports that workers need to
actually be in a mindset to thrive.
So, looking at boards, one of thethings you mentioned when we talked a
couple of weeks ago was that a boardwithout human capital experience becomes
a liability on the issue of people.
(05:41):
Talk a little bit about that if you would.
Well, the big thing that I thinkabout when we're talking about boards
of directors, they have a fiduciaryresponsibility to think about and
oversee the long-term success andbusiness success and sustainability.
One thing I've seen in my research overand over is that research shows that
(06:02):
companies that are investing in theiremployees' wellbeing, that they experience
higher retention and lower hiring costs.
They have increased productivityand innovation, stronger brand
reputation and also consumer trust.
What we're seeing here is that theseinvestments in people aren't just
a social good that they become abusiness strategy that reduces risk
(06:25):
that enhances financial performancethat helps to attract top tier talent.
As a board, if you're thinking abouthaving people around the table that
actually has a set of experiences thatcan help drive performance, boards
really do need someone that has thatexpertise and experience around talent
(06:48):
and understanding what good talentprocedures and policies look like and
also what to do when it's not goingwell and how to attract the best talent.
So, does that mean having someone onthe board with that kind of background?
Does it mean inviting the chiefpeople officer or director of HR
to come to the board meetings?
(07:08):
What are the ways that you'veseen are most effective in making
sure that companies are thoughtfulabout their people policies?
So, one is having someone on the boardthat can really think about the people
strategies who can advise on that, andit's always looking through the lens of
people on every aspect of the business.
Because the through line andeverything the business touches,
(07:30):
there's going to be a person and ahuman there, so really understanding
those impacts and also advising.
Second, having the CHR come in.
Why that's important right now?
We're experiencing unprecedentedheadwinds in terms of labor.
We're moving into a very tight labormarket that we'll see in 2025 and
beyond, and that has multiple causes.
(07:52):
If we think about the administration,their thoughts and perspective on
immigration right now, we'll haveto look at more of our homegrown
talent and have a strategy to do so.
We'll have to look at our incumbentworkforce and really think about what
are the skills that they're going toneed to be successful in the future of
work and also in the face of generativeAI so having that perspective there.
(08:16):
So, we need companies thatactually have a strategy.
Again, how are they going to attracttalent, sustain talent and continue
to develop the talent that they have.
And I'm going to guess that withoutthat kind of expertise in the
boardroom, it's likely they'regoing to fall short of the mark.
fall short of the mark, they'regoing to miss opportunities.
(08:38):
When people ask me today, what doworkforce needs in the event of generative
AI, what are going to be the impactson actual talent, does it mean that
we are going to lose jobs, does itmean the jobs will change and shift,
you need someone at the table who'sreally thinking about that and helping
to develop the strategy real time.
(09:00):
Some of the best companies todaythat I've studied, they have
someone in every department thinkingabout use cases for generative AI.
They're thinking about how they canautomate routine tasks, how they can make
workers more efficient, and what we'reseeing is that every worker is going to
need to become, on some level, a knowledgeworker, and really thinking about from
(09:21):
their seat, how do they add value, how dothey work alongside tools like generative
AI to do their jobs more efficiently.
And so again, having a strategyaround that and having someone whose
responsibility to think throughthat strategy and also to make sure
it aligns across the business isgoing to be of critical importance.
(09:42):
Angela, you alluded to top tier talent,and I think that's another thing
worth talking about a little more.
How can employers and companies attractand retain top tier talent, especially
in the tightening labor market?
What are some of the thingsthey ought to do or think about?
So, the biggest thing that we've seenin the research, and I talk about
(10:04):
this a bit in the book, the Win-WinWorkplace, and it's pillar nine, it's
called entrepreneurial strategiesand creating an ownership mindset.
So, when you have a top tier player,what they're doing is that they
have some ownership in the business.
They feel passionate about the role.
They're doing a fantastic job.
What are the structures andpolicies that you have to give them
(10:26):
the runway to innovate to bringsome of their expertise to bear?
Some of the best companies areactually integrating that into
their procedures and policies.
If you even think about Google, whatthey do about 20% time where top
employees can have 20% to innovate, toidentify problems of practice for the
business, to introduce new businesses.
(10:48):
Top tier talent willalways have optionality.
There's another big trend in the workplacenow when we talk about return to work.
Again, top tier talent and whatwe're seeing across corporations,
with the widespread return-to-officemandates, many companies are
losing their top tier talent.
Why is that?
Top tier talent has optionality.
(11:09):
They know they can go to another place.
So, forward-thinking businessesare being more flexible.
They're thinking about how we retain them.
They're thinking about how we can leveragemore of their insights and how we can
take these top tier talent to motivateother talent throughout the organization.
And when you talk about ownership mindset,in addition to literally owning a piece
(11:34):
of the company such as stock options orunits, you're talking about empowering
them to be owner of the parts of thebusiness that they are helping run.
That's correct, Raza.
So, there is the actual ownership.
Also, what we've seen with our research isthat when an employee feels that they have
(11:54):
a voice and say in the matters that mattermost to them, they are having a sense
of ownership and they're part of this.
So, that goes beyond even a paycheckor dollars, they want to make sure
that they have an opportunity toactually influence their work.
We're seeing the companies thatare building structures to do that,
they're retaining top players.
(12:16):
They're having more innovation.
They have policies and practiceswhere employees, at any level,
not only can come and bring theirideas and see them implemented.
You did some significant researchon Fortune 500 companies in a
published study called competitiveadvantage of the Win-Win Workplace,
(12:36):
which were released last October.
Can you tell us what was that studyabout, what did it address, and what
were some of the conclusions thatyou came to as a result of the study?
The biggest thing that we wanted todo was really shift this conversation
from investments in working from themoral thing to do or the charitable
(12:58):
thing to do, we wanted to see if therewas a correlation to the business
case and economic case for doing this.
So, we looked at 355 of the Fortune500 companies to identify what
practices and strategies they wereleveraging to invest in their employees.
(13:19):
So, think about reimaginingbenefits, centering worker voice,
putting in structures for ownershipand entrepreneurial structures.
We identified nine of these practices,and these are the ones that we identify
in the book that's forthcoming.
And what we wanted to understand,looking at the Fortune 500 companies,
were which of these practicesactually showed a correlation to
(13:43):
financial lift on the business side?
What I say to people all of the timeis there are many ways that you can
invest in employees, and we're notsaying all of those are good or bad,
but these nine in particular showed acorrelation to lift on the financial side.
So, for example, we started withcentering worker voice, what we're
(14:04):
able to see is that companies that haveactive strategies to do this, they have
43% higher profits than their peers.
That's real dollars and cents when you goin and look at some of these strategies.
I was just recently with a group ofCHROs and chief learning officers of
major organizations, and they leanedin when I begin to share this data
(14:28):
because it actually equips them withthe economic case so they can get more
dollars to invest in these areas whenyou can actually do a dotted line and
show how they're driving the business.
What about smaller companies?
I can understand how Fortune 500 companiesmight have the resources to do this.
(14:48):
What about smaller companies or evenprivate companies that are smaller
and may not have the same resources?
For smaller companies and medium-sizedcompanies, this becomes even more
critical, and I'll tell you why.
In a tight labor market that wetalked about earlier, that means that
wages are going to increase and thecompanies who can pay higher wages
are typically larger companies.
(15:10):
With a small- and medium-sized businessnow, when you have restaurants like
McDonald's paying entry level of $20 or$25, a small- and medium-sized company
says, how can we stay competitive?
Well, they can stay competitivebased on the culture that they're
building with their company.
I spoke to a thousand small businessowners at the Jim Moran Small Business
(15:30):
Institute last year, and this wastop of mind for them, how do we
compete for talent if we can't justcompete on dollars and wages alone?
And one thing I shared with thesebusiness owners that I will share
with your listeners today is thatthe advantage of the small- or
medium-sized business has over alarge organization is around culture.
(15:52):
It's around the opportunity.
If you work there, youcan get to know the CEO.
He or she probably knows your name,and that becomes an advantage for
people who are looking for community.
They're looking for family.
They're looking fortheir voices to be heard.
And what we're hearing for, especiallyfor millennials right now, is that
they want to know that their workactually matters, and they want to see
(16:16):
that it's having an immediate impact.
At a small- to medium-sized organization,every worker counts and any business
leader will tell you that, so thatbecomes an advantage when you talk
about how you're re-imagining benefits.
When you're thinking about a mom ora dad, and you're saying, you know
what, we're providing childcareor childcare stipend or caregiving
(16:37):
stipend, those things actuallymatter and become a differentiator.
When employers or companies ask,what do the best board members
want, what I tell them is theywant their voices to be heard.
They want to know that theiropinions will actually matter.
And what you're really sayingis, so do your employees, it's
(17:00):
not just the board members.
People in a smaller company or a mid-sizedcompany actually might have an opportunity
to think that the voices are being heard.
In a Fortune 500 company,that's a real challenge.
It absolutely is a challenge.
And I was with the CEO of a manufacturingcompany in Cleveland, Ohio, and as I
(17:21):
was talking to CEO, he said one thinghe prides himself on was he was like,
"I know everyone's wife's name." He waslike, "I still take the time to handwrite
a birthday card, not only to them, butalso to their wife and to their children."
As I went through and I was on the plantfloor talking to actual employees, they
were like, "This feels like a family."And that again makes a difference.
(17:43):
All of us want to be seen.
We want to be recognized andthat gets harder and harder.
Raza, you know this.
We're both on the board ofNeedham Bank with Joe Campanelli.
Our company went public and, I sharedthis story before, he decided to
ride on a chartered bus with therank and file employees to travel
from Massachusetts to New York.
Of course, he could have flown in, hecould have had a private driver, he
(18:07):
really want to be shoulder to shoulderand celebrate this moment with employees.
Those are the moments that matter.
Those are the things that you cando with a small- to medium-sized
company that you might not be ableto do with a larger organization.
Great example.
Could you maybe just let usknow what is the second round
of research that you're doing?
What is that looking at?
(18:28):
We are looking at small andmedium-sized businesses.
As I mentioned, we startedwith the Fortune 500.
What we want to understand now withthese nine strategies are what does it
look like for a medium-sized businessand answer many of the questions that
you said, Joe, what are the cost,how do you implement many small- and
medium-sized businesses, they don't haveCHROs or chief people officers, so how
(18:52):
do they do this in a sustainable way?
What I'm doing with my research teamright now are studying case studies of
how do you implement this and how is itsustainable, and that's why I was out in
the middle of the country, at Jergens,looking at this manufacturing company to
say, "Okay, you've got 2,000 workers, howare you doing this with two HR people?
(19:12):
What's the role in the job to bedone of the CEO versus someone that's
in human resources versus the rankand file and frontline managers?
Angela, we really love that the studytied those nine factors or pillars
to profitability, and it also givesus great appreciation that those
(19:34):
same pillar might apply even moreto small and medium businesses.
Now, when somebody is on the board,why should the boards be caring
about the win-win workplace overall?
As I mentioned before, what it is, isthat this win-win workplace becomes
a strategy and it becomes a businessstrategy to really think about how
(19:56):
we reduce risk, how do we enhancefinancial performance, how to like, as I
mentioned, we attract the top tier talent.
As the labor market tightens and thenworkplace and workforce expectations
evolve, and we're seeing that withsome of our millennial workers, the
board needs to make sure that we'rekeeping an eye on the fact that
(20:18):
the company can remain competitiveand really prioritize its people.
Again, there's lots of talks thatsay people are the best and most
important assets of a company.
It's for the board to look at and say,"Okay, how are we showing that? How are
we measuring that? How do we actuallyknow that we're doing that?" And that
(20:38):
will be different for every company, butthat's the role that a board can play.
Again, inviting the CHRO in to givea presentation and say, "There's a
lot going on in the world right now.
There's a lot of headwinds.
We have a new administration.
How are our rank and file feelingabout this?" Keeping our finger on the
pulse of like employee sentiment isgoing to be more important than ever.
(21:01):
Because when there's uncertainty atthe highest levels in the country,
that trickles down day to day.
People will be trying to makemeaning of all the changes that are
happening, all the new policies.
There's a retrenchmentaround DEI, for example.
What does that mean?
And when I talk about this, andI've been asked about this at
(21:22):
the board level, what do I thinkaround this entrenchment of DEI.
I say at its core, DEI was aboutcreating work as it relates to
work, was creating workspaces wherepeople could actually show up, be
their best selves and contribute.
I'm not going to die on the swordof an acronym, but what I say to
other board directors and otherleaders is, at its essence, how are
(21:45):
we continue to maintain that spirit?
Because if you take that away and youlose that, that's a missed opportunity
and it's a mistake for companies not tothink about how can people show up fully
and be in a mindset to do their jobs.
That should be our number one priorityand thinking how we build these
workplaces where people can thrive.
(22:06):
Very well said.
It reminds me of that saying, takecare of your people who will take
care of your product and customer,that will take care of your profits.
Don't we understand that?
When you talk to someone, youcall them in customer service, you
get someone who's talking to you.
That's a frontline ambassador.
Are they happy?
Are they in a bad mood?
You know when you go into places likeTrader Joe's, for example, people
(22:29):
go there because of that frontlinecustomer employee experience.
We have to keep remembering thatour employees are ambassadors.
They're on Glassdoor.
They're on LinkedIn.
There's so many channels where they'regoing to share their thoughts and
they have so much influence, and sowe just want to make sure that they're
feeling good, that they're feelingincluded, and they feel like we're
(22:51):
creating a workplace to the best ofour abilities where they could thrive.
I think looking at DEI as an acronym,but really looking further to
what it is supposed to accomplishis the best way to look at it.
how we look at boards.
We're not looking for diversity fordiversity's sake, we're looking for
(23:13):
diversity of perspective because it makesa board better, and that is something that
doesn't go away with a change in policy.
I think that was really well said.
So, what do you think the most effectiveways a board can hold leadership
accountable for employee wellbeingand long-term business sustainability.
(23:35):
When I think about holding companiesand boards themselves and leadership
accountable, one is making sure that wehave the processes and systems in place
to measure what we say is most important.
So, if you think about requiring executiveleadership to present what they're doing
on their workforce investment strategy,how they're thinking about their talent
(23:58):
pipeline development, what metrics thatthey're using and watching and monitoring
to understand employee engagement andretention, do they know how employees
feel, and what is the evidence of that?
Are they looking at Glassdoorand some of these platform?
The other thing that wethink about is compensation.
(24:19):
So, just like we think bonuses arelinked to financial targets, should
they be connected to also people metricsalong with retention, satisfaction,
internal promotions and growth?
As I mentioned to you before, in a tightlabor market, it's going to be important
that companies have a grow your own talentstrategy that starts from the entry level
(24:41):
on up and really understanding what arethe dollars, how are we doing this and how
are we doing it in a more systematic way.
Then the last one is what we shared, justensuring that HR has a voice at the table.
The CHRO or if we have other peopleon board that are doing workforce
strategy and planning, that they havea direct line to the board, that we're
(25:03):
actually looking at their reports, we'reunderstanding what headwinds they're up
against in our particular industry andthat we're being thought partners with
them as our talent strategies evolve.
Angela, you alluded a littlebit to one or two metrics.
What are the key metrics boardsshould be looking at to evaluate
the company's commitment toWin-Win Workplace principles?
(25:28):
I'm so glad that you asked that.
Many times, HR and talent isseen, again, as an expense.
What I've tried to do with theWin-Win Workplace book is really
show how it can be a revenue driver.
What's unfortunate is that many companiesdon't know the actual cost of their
turnover, unfortunately, and so gettingto really understand talent costs,
(25:55):
turnover costs are going to be reallycritical and beginning to watch those
and have those in dollars and cents.
Looking at employee retention andturnover rates, really understanding
the high turnover rate, that's a signalthat there's some disengagement there.
There's a misalignmentwith the company culture.
Thinking about internal mobility,thinking about how we're growing our
(26:17):
own talent, we see that companies whoare growing their own talent, that helps
to reduce turnover, you have increasedloyalty because people want to stay, and
you're getting more value out of thoseemployees because they really understand
the culture and the job to be done.
The other thing that we'relooking at is just employee
engagement and wellbeing scores.
(26:37):
So again, what we saw during thepandemic was really eye opening and
sometimes we quickly forget someof the lessons we learned that were
good lessons during the pandemic.
We really were broughtinto people's home in Zoom.
We checked in with them.
We were concerned abouttheir health, their family.
Many times we forget that the thingsthat are happening in one's personal life
(26:59):
directly impacts them, how they are ableand their ability to show up at work.
So, making sure that we're remainingto be empathetic, that we're keeping
our finger on the pulse of how ouremployees are doing at work and outside
of work and understanding when thereare barriers that are coming up that
can impact work, that employees aresetting up a strategy to address those,
(27:21):
and this is such an important point.
There was a New York Times article severalmonths ago about a social worker in
Washington state that was experiencinghousing insecurity and she was living
outside of her car and her day-to-day jobworking for the state was to go in and to
counsel others and to be a social worker.
How can a worker do that ifthey're facing housing insecurity?
(27:45):
We're seeing some companies on the leadingedge of that, so they're reimagining
benefits to think about housing stipends,down payments, so people can actually
afford to live in the communitieswhere they work and in communities.
I live here in Massachusettswhere housing is high.
Transportation is expensive.
These are things that every board andcompany should be thinking about to
(28:09):
make sure that, again, not only can theyattract talent, but this talent that
come in, especially entry level, canafford to grow with them over the years.
Angela, how do Win-Win Workplacestrategies help mitigate risk?
We talk about one of the mostimportant functions of a board is
to help identify and address andmitigate risk for the company.
(28:31):
What strategies can companiesinstitute that will help mitigate risk?
When we wrote this book, what theresearch said and what we saw looking
across these companies is that whenyou're employing these Win-Win Workplace
strategies, it begins to protect thecompany from workforce instability,
(28:51):
and that becomes a huge risk forcompanies, can you find the right talent?
Can they show up and bein the mindset to work?
Reputational damage, like I mentionedon Glassdoor, LinkedIn, employees
are talking, they're talkingto each other all of the time.
Having a vibrant strategy andcompanies who keep their finger on
(29:12):
the pulse of employee sentiment canget ahead of anything, of trouble
before it comes down the pipe.
The one thing that wethink a lot about is.
Avoiding labor crisis.
Again, in a tight labor market, makingsure that we have the talent that
we need to innovate in the future.
The second thing that we're saying isthat the strengthening of brand trust.
(29:34):
When you have employees outthere, they're the ambassadors.
When they love where they work andwhat they do, they're out there
telling everyone, and they are ourfirst customers when you think about
it, if you're doing it the right way.
One thing that worries me in this momentwith the retrenchment of DEI and some
of the other human-centered policies isthat we are creating potentially a very
(29:56):
litigious environment where if people arelet go without reason or rationale, that
we're not following the letter of the law,if we've decided to change our strategy
overnight and decide that certain peoplecan't work here for certain reasons or
certain policies around gender, we needto be very cautious about that and about
(30:19):
the decisions that we're going to make.
For a couple of reasons.
One of them is legal, but the secondone is our employees are watching.
If six months ago, you said inclusionwas really important, and as a CEO, you
said that you were investing in that,and then six months later, you send out
an email and saying we're dropping allof these policies, what that signals
(30:42):
to your employee base is that youmay be a bit fickle in your policy.
It becomes that you're maybea bit more untrustworthy.
And what happens when employeesdon't entrust their leadership, that
increases the odds that they can leave,that we see this whole phenomenon
of quiet quitting, that they'rewaiting for the other shoe to drop.
(31:05):
It's a distraction from them beingfocused on work and the job to be done.
So, again, we know that certain policiesand procedures will need to be massaged.
They will need to be looked at again,but we should always center, one, the
company's values, also we should standfor what we stood for six months ago
shouldn't change six months later.
(31:27):
Maybe we need to iterate it and do it ina different way, and there's an allowance
for that, but we have to remain andstay consistent for our employee's sake.
Yeah.
If basic principles are important,they should remain important.
Really well said.
Thank you for that.
Angela, it has beengreat speaking with you.
Thank you for being backwith us as a guest today.
(31:49):
It's been wonderful tohear about your book.
And thank you all for listening to OnBoards with our very special guest,
Dr. Angela Jackson, and remember,great book launch event at Nutter
McClennen & Fish on March 26th.
We hope all of our listeners, allof them, will be there for that day.
(32:13):
Please visit our websiteat OnBoardsPodcast.com.
That's OnBoardsPodcast.com.
We'd love to hear your comments,suggestions and feedback.
And if you're not already a subscriber,please be sure to subscribe at
Apple Podcast, Spotify or whereveryou get your podcast, and remember
to leave us a five-star review.
(32:33):
And please tune in for thenext episode of On Boards.
Thanks.
Hello and welcome to On Boards, a deepdive at what drives business success.
I'm Joe Ayoub and I'm herewith my co-host, Raza Shaikh.
Twice a month, On Boards is a place tolearn about one of the most important
aspects of any company or organization- its board of directors or advisors, with
a focus on the important issues thatare facing boards, company leadership,
(00:29):
investors, and other stakeholders.
Joe and I speak with a wide range ofguests and talk about what makes a board
successful or unsuccessful, what it meansto be an effective board member, and
how to make your board one of the mostvaluable assets of your organization.
Before we introduce our guest, we wantto thank the law firm of Nutter McClennen
(00:52):
& Fish who are again sponsoring our OnBoards Summit taking place this year,
in the fall, again in their beautifulconference center in the Boston Seaport.
They've been incrediblepartners with us in every way.
We appreciate all they'vedone to support our podcast.
Our guest today is Dr. Angela Jackson.
(01:14):
Angela is the founder of FutureForward Strategies, a labor market
intelligence, design thinking andstrategy firm that assists leaders
with transforming organizationsand human capital infrastructure in
organizations to maintain competitivenesswhile creating positive impact.
(01:35):
She is also an award-winning socialentrepreneur, a global C-Suite executive,
and an experienced board member,
Angela is also a lecturer atthe Harvard Graduate School of
Education, and senior advisor tothe Harvard Project on Workforce.
Among the boards on which Angela serves isthe board of Needham Bank, located outside
(01:59):
of Boston, a board on which I also serve.
And she is the author of a new bookentitled The Win-Win Workplace, which
will be published on March 11th.
There is a book launch event hostedby Nutter McClennen & Fish and
co-sponsored by the On Boards Podcast,which is scheduled on March 26th, also
(02:22):
in the beautiful conference centerat Nutter's office in the Seaport.
Angela, welcome.
Thank you for joining us again.
It's great to have you back as a guest.
Oh, it's so great tobe back, Joe and Raza.
Thank you for the invitation.
So, let's start with thebook, the Win-Win Workplace.
(02:44):
We heard about it when you were onlast year and now it's being published.
Very exciting.
What led you to write the book?
What inspired you to write the book?
Yeah, I feel like I startedwriting this book when I was born.
I was raised by my grandfather whoworked at a Chrysler factory an hour
outside of Chicago, and I remembergrowing up and watching him when
(03:08):
he worked at that factory how hewas like a Chrysler factory man.
But I also watched when that factoryclosed down and left our community, and
it really struck on me the impact andthe role that work plays on one's life
and also in a family and a community.
And for me and thinking about Chrysler,they train their employees just to do
(03:31):
one thing and to do them really well.
My grandfather worked in a lot factoryline, and for me it was thinking
about what if we shifted that?
What does it look like when companiesactually invest in their workers?
And what does that do aroundsustainability and innovation?
And it's something that I'veresearched for over a decade now.
(03:53):
Wow, so the book has been gestatingfor years that it's exciting.
I love the book and I love what it says.
Great to hear that the backgroundgoes so far into your earlier life.
That's beautiful.
Before we talk about the book itself,let's talk about a couple of things
that kind of are background to the book.
(04:13):
One of the things we wantedto talk about is the political
impact on HR of federal policy.
How do federal government policychanges impact people policies?
Joe, thank you for asking that question.
I was just in DC this week at theBipartisan Policy Center for an event that
was called America's Workforce (04:34):
Creating a Blueprint for the Future, and what I was
so excited about this event is that youhad people from both sides of the aisle.
Federal policy actually really matters,and one thing that like rain clear
for me from this event, how we thinkabout our talent, how we're thinking
about investments as a country inour talent really determines our
(04:57):
economic viability, also our nationalsecurity, and it was really warming
and heartening to see that both sidesof the aisle were thinking that way.
We have to think about investmentsin workers and upskilling.
We have to think about creatingthe jobs of the future, how people
will understand those skills.
We have to think about workplaceconstraints that we have today and
(05:20):
what are some of those wraparoundsupports that workers need to
actually be in a mindset to thrive.
So, looking at boards, one of thethings you mentioned when we talked a
couple of weeks ago was that a boardwithout human capital experience becomes
a liability on the issue of people.
(05:41):
Talk a little bit about that if you would.
Well, the big thing that I thinkabout when we're talking about boards
of directors, they have a fiduciaryresponsibility to think about and
oversee the long-term success andbusiness success and sustainability.
One thing I've seen in my research overand over is that research shows that
(06:02):
companies that are investing in theiremployees' wellbeing, that they experience
higher retention and lower hiring costs.
They have increased productivityand innovation, stronger brand
reputation and also consumer trust.
What we're seeing here is that theseinvestments in people aren't just
a social good that they become abusiness strategy that reduces risk
(06:25):
that enhances financial performancethat helps to attract top tier talent.
As a board, if you're thinking abouthaving people around the table that
actually has a set of experiences thatcan help drive performance, boards
really do need someone that has thatexpertise and experience around talent
(06:48):
and understanding what good talentprocedures and policies look like and
also what to do when it's not goingwell and how to attract the best talent.
So, does that mean having someone onthe board with that kind of background?
Does it mean inviting the chiefpeople officer or director of HR
to come to the board meetings?
(07:08):
What are the ways that you'veseen are most effective in making
sure that companies are thoughtfulabout their people policies?
So, one is having someone on the boardthat can really think about the people
strategies who can advise on that, andit's always looking through the lens of
people on every aspect of the business.
Because the through line andeverything the business touches,
(07:30):
there's going to be a person and ahuman there, so really understanding
those impacts and also advising.
Second, having the CHR come in.
Why that's important right now?
We're experiencing unprecedentedheadwinds in terms of labor.
We're moving into a very tight labormarket that we'll see in 2025 and
beyond, and that has multiple causes.
(07:52):
If we think about the administration,their thoughts and perspective on
immigration right now, we'll haveto look at more of our homegrown
talent and have a strategy to do so.
We'll have to look at our incumbentworkforce and really think about what
are the skills that they're going toneed to be successful in the future of
work and also in the face of generativeAI so having that perspective there.
(08:16):
So, we need companies thatactually have a strategy.
Again, how are they going to attracttalent, sustain talent and continue
to develop the talent that they have.
And I'm going to guess that withoutthat kind of expertise in the
boardroom, it's likely they'regoing to fall short of the mark.
fall short of the mark, they'regoing to miss opportunities.
(08:38):
When people ask me today, what doworkforce needs in the event of generative
AI, what are going to be the impactson actual talent, does it mean that
we are going to lose jobs, does itmean the jobs will change and shift,
you need someone at the table who'sreally thinking about that and helping
to develop the strategy real time.
(09:00):
Some of the best companies todaythat I've studied, they have
someone in every department thinkingabout use cases for generative AI.
They're thinking about how they canautomate routine tasks, how they can make
workers more efficient, and what we'reseeing is that every worker is going to
need to become, on some level, a knowledgeworker, and really thinking about from
(09:21):
their seat, how do they add value, how dothey work alongside tools like generative
AI to do their jobs more efficiently.
And so again, having a strategyaround that and having someone whose
responsibility to think throughthat strategy and also to make sure
it aligns across the business isgoing to be of critical importance.
(09:42):
Angela, you alluded to top tier talent,and I think that's another thing
worth talking about a little more.
How can employers and companies attractand retain top tier talent, especially
in the tightening labor market?
What are some of the thingsthey ought to do or think about?
So, the biggest thing that we've seenin the research, and I talk about
(10:04):
this a bit in the book, the Win-WinWorkplace, and it's pillar nine, it's
called entrepreneurial strategiesand creating an ownership mindset.
So, when you have a top tier player,what they're doing is that they
have some ownership in the business.
They feel passionate about the role.
They're doing a fantastic job.
What are the structures andpolicies that you have to give them
(10:26):
the runway to innovate to bringsome of their expertise to bear?
Some of the best companies areactually integrating that into
their procedures and policies.
If you even think about Google, whatthey do about 20% time where top
employees can have 20% to innovate, toidentify problems of practice for the
business, to introduce new businesses.
(10:48):
Top tier talent willalways have optionality.
There's another big trend in the workplacenow when we talk about return to work.
Again, top tier talent and whatwe're seeing across corporations,
with the widespread return-to-officemandates, many companies are
losing their top tier talent.
Why is that?
Top tier talent has optionality.
(11:09):
They know they can go to another place.
So, forward-thinking businessesare being more flexible.
They're thinking about how we retain them.
They're thinking about how we can leveragemore of their insights and how we can
take these top tier talent to motivateother talent throughout the organization.
And when you talk about ownership mindset,in addition to literally owning a piece
(11:34):
of the company such as stock options orunits, you're talking about empowering
them to be owner of the parts of thebusiness that they are helping run.
That's correct, Raza.
So, there is the actual ownership.
Also, what we've seen with our research isthat when an employee feels that they have
(11:54):
a voice and say in the matters that mattermost to them, they are having a sense
of ownership and they're part of this.
So, that goes beyond even a paycheckor dollars, they want to make sure
that they have an opportunity toactually influence their work.
We're seeing the companies thatare building structures to do that,
they're retaining top players.
(12:16):
They're having more innovation.
They have policies and practiceswhere employees, at any level,
not only can come and bring theirideas and see them implemented.
You did some significant researchon Fortune 500 companies in a
published study called competitiveadvantage of the Win-Win Workplace,
(12:36):
which were released last October.
Can you tell us what was that studyabout, what did it address, and what
were some of the conclusions thatyou came to as a result of the study?
The biggest thing that we wanted todo was really shift this conversation
from investments in working from themoral thing to do or the charitable
(12:58):
thing to do, we wanted to see if therewas a correlation to the business
case and economic case for doing this.
So, we looked at 355 of the Fortune500 companies to identify what
practices and strategies they wereleveraging to invest in their employees.
(13:19):
So, think about reimaginingbenefits, centering worker voice,
putting in structures for ownershipand entrepreneurial structures.
We identified nine of these practices,and these are the ones that we identify
in the book that's forthcoming.
And what we wanted to understand,looking at the Fortune 500 companies,
were which of these practicesactually showed a correlation to
(13:43):
financial lift on the business side?
What I say to people all of the timeis there are many ways that you can
invest in employees, and we're notsaying all of those are good or bad,
but these nine in particular showed acorrelation to lift on the financial side.
So, for example, we started withcentering worker voice, what we're
(14:04):
able to see is that companies that haveactive strategies to do this, they have
43% higher profits than their peers.
That's real dollars and cents when you goin and look at some of these strategies.
I was just recently with a group ofCHROs and chief learning officers of
major organizations, and they leanedin when I begin to share this data
(14:28):
because it actually equips them withthe economic case so they can get more
dollars to invest in these areas whenyou can actually do a dotted line and
show how they're driving the business.
What about smaller companies?
I can understand how Fortune 500 companiesmight have the resources to do this.
(14:48):
What about smaller companies or evenprivate companies that are smaller
and may not have the same resources?
For smaller companies and medium-sizedcompanies, this becomes even more
critical, and I'll tell you why.
In a tight labor market that wetalked about earlier, that means that
wages are going to increase and thecompanies who can pay higher wages
are typically larger companies.
(15:10):
With a small- and medium-sized businessnow, when you have restaurants like
McDonald's paying entry level of $20 or$25, a small- and medium-sized company
says, how can we stay competitive?
Well, they can stay competitivebased on the culture that they're
building with their company.
I spoke to a thousand small businessowners at the Jim Moran Small Business
(15:30):
Institute last year, and this wastop of mind for them, how do we
compete for talent if we can't justcompete on dollars and wages alone?
And one thing I shared with thesebusiness owners that I will share
with your listeners today is thatthe advantage of the small- or
medium-sized business has over alarge organization is around culture.
(15:52):
It's around the opportunity.
If you work there, youcan get to know the CEO.
He or she probably knows your name,and that becomes an advantage for
people who are looking for community.
They're looking for family.
They're looking fortheir voices to be heard.
And what we're hearing for, especiallyfor millennials right now, is that
they want to know that their workactually matters, and they want to see
(16:16):
that it's having an immediate impact.
At a small- to medium-sized organization,every worker counts and any business
leader will tell you that, so thatbecomes an advantage when you talk
about how you're re-imagining benefits.
When you're thinking about a mom ora dad, and you're saying, you know
what, we're providing childcareor childcare stipend or caregiving
(16:37):
stipend, those things actuallymatter and become a differentiator.
When employers or companies ask,what do the best board members
want, what I tell them is theywant their voices to be heard.
They want to know that theiropinions will actually matter.
And what you're really sayingis, so do your employees, it's
(17:00):
not just the board members.
People in a smaller company or a mid-sizedcompany actually might have an opportunity
to think that the voices are being heard.
In a Fortune 500 company,that's a real challenge.
It absolutely is a challenge.
And I was with the CEO of a manufacturingcompany in Cleveland, Ohio, and as I
(17:21):
was talking to CEO, he said one thinghe prides himself on was he was like,
"I know everyone's wife's name." He waslike, "I still take the time to handwrite
a birthday card, not only to them, butalso to their wife and to their children."
As I went through and I was on the plantfloor talking to actual employees, they
were like, "This feels like a family."And that again makes a difference.
(17:43):
All of us want to be seen.
We want to be recognized andthat gets harder and harder.
Raza, you know this.
We're both on the board ofNeedham Bank with Joe Campanelli.
Our company went public and, I sharedthis story before, he decided to
ride on a chartered bus with therank and file employees to travel
from Massachusetts to New York.
Of course, he could have flown in, hecould have had a private driver, he
(18:07):
really want to be shoulder to shoulderand celebrate this moment with employees.
Those are the moments that matter.
Those are the things that you cando with a small- to medium-sized
company that you might not be ableto do with a larger organization.
Great example.
Could you maybe just let usknow what is the second round
of research that you're doing?
What is that looking at?
(18:28):
We are looking at small andmedium-sized businesses.
As I mentioned, we startedwith the Fortune 500.
What we want to understand now withthese nine strategies are what does it
look like for a medium-sized businessand answer many of the questions that
you said, Joe, what are the cost,how do you implement many small- and
medium-sized businesses, they don't haveCHROs or chief people officers, so how
(18:52):
do they do this in a sustainable way?
What I'm doing with my research teamright now are studying case studies of
how do you implement this and how is itsustainable, and that's why I was out in
the middle of the country, at Jergens,looking at this manufacturing company to
say, "Okay, you've got 2,000 workers, howare you doing this with two HR people?
(19:12):
What's the role in the job to bedone of the CEO versus someone that's
in human resources versus the rankand file and frontline managers?
Angela, we really love that the studytied those nine factors or pillars
to profitability, and it also givesus great appreciation that those
(19:34):
same pillar might apply even moreto small and medium businesses.
Now, when somebody is on the board,why should the boards be caring
about the win-win workplace overall?
As I mentioned before, what it is, isthat this win-win workplace becomes
a strategy and it becomes a businessstrategy to really think about how
(19:56):
we reduce risk, how do we enhancefinancial performance, how to like, as I
mentioned, we attract the top tier talent.
As the labor market tightens and thenworkplace and workforce expectations
evolve, and we're seeing that withsome of our millennial workers, the
board needs to make sure that we'rekeeping an eye on the fact that
(20:18):
the company can remain competitiveand really prioritize its people.
Again, there's lots of talks thatsay people are the best and most
important assets of a company.
It's for the board to look at and say,"Okay, how are we showing that? How are
we measuring that? How do we actuallyknow that we're doing that?" And that
(20:38):
will be different for every company, butthat's the role that a board can play.
Again, inviting the CHRO in to givea presentation and say, "There's a
lot going on in the world right now.
There's a lot of headwinds.
We have a new administration.
How are our rank and file feelingabout this?" Keeping our finger on the
pulse of like employee sentiment isgoing to be more important than ever.
(21:01):
Because when there's uncertainty atthe highest levels in the country,
that trickles down day to day.
People will be trying to makemeaning of all the changes that are
happening, all the new policies.
There's a retrenchmentaround DEI, for example.
What does that mean?
And when I talk about this, andI've been asked about this at
(21:22):
the board level, what do I thinkaround this entrenchment of DEI.
I say at its core, DEI was aboutcreating work as it relates to
work, was creating workspaces wherepeople could actually show up, be
their best selves and contribute.
I'm not going to die on the swordof an acronym, but what I say to
other board directors and otherleaders is, at its essence, how are
(21:45):
we continue to maintain that spirit?
Because if you take that away and youlose that, that's a missed opportunity
and it's a mistake for companies not tothink about how can people show up fully
and be in a mindset to do their jobs.
That should be our number one priorityand thinking how we build these
workplaces where people can thrive.
(22:06):
Very well said.
It reminds me of that saying, takecare of your people who will take
care of your product and customer,that will take care of your profits.
Don't we understand that?
When you talk to someone, youcall them in customer service, you
get someone who's talking to you.
That's a frontline ambassador.
Are they happy?
Are they in a bad mood?
You know when you go into places likeTrader Joe's, for example, people
(22:29):
go there because of that frontlinecustomer employee experience.
We have to keep remembering thatour employees are ambassadors.
They're on Glassdoor.
They're on LinkedIn.
There's so many channels where they'regoing to share their thoughts and
they have so much influence, and sowe just want to make sure that they're
feeling good, that they're feelingincluded, and they feel like we're
(22:51):
creating a workplace to the best ofour abilities where they could thrive.
I think looking at DEI as an acronym,but really looking further to
what it is supposed to accomplishis the best way to look at it.
how we look at boards.
We're not looking for diversity fordiversity's sake, we're looking for
(23:13):
diversity of perspective because it makesa board better, and that is something that
doesn't go away with a change in policy.
I think that was really well said.
So, what do you think the most effectiveways a board can hold leadership
accountable for employee wellbeingand long-term business sustainability.
(23:35):
When I think about holding companiesand boards themselves and leadership
accountable, one is making sure that wehave the processes and systems in place
to measure what we say is most important.
So, if you think about requiring executiveleadership to present what they're doing
on their workforce investment strategy,how they're thinking about their talent
(23:58):
pipeline development, what metrics thatthey're using and watching and monitoring
to understand employee engagement andretention, do they know how employees
feel, and what is the evidence of that?
Are they looking at Glassdoorand some of these platform?
The other thing that wethink about is compensation.
(24:19):
So, just like we think bonuses arelinked to financial targets, should
they be connected to also people metricsalong with retention, satisfaction,
internal promotions and growth?
As I mentioned to you before, in a tightlabor market, it's going to be important
that companies have a grow your own talentstrategy that starts from the entry level
(24:41):
on up and really understanding what arethe dollars, how are we doing this and how
are we doing it in a more systematic way.
Then the last one is what we shared, justensuring that HR has a voice at the table.
The CHRO or if we have other peopleon board that are doing workforce
strategy and planning, that they havea direct line to the board, that we're
(25:03):
actually looking at their reports, we'reunderstanding what headwinds they're up
against in our particular industry andthat we're being thought partners with
them as our talent strategies evolve.
Angela, you alluded a littlebit to one or two metrics.
What are the key metrics boardsshould be looking at to evaluate
the company's commitment toWin-Win Workplace principles?
(25:28):
I'm so glad that you asked that.
Many times, HR and talent isseen, again, as an expense.
What I've tried to do with theWin-Win Workplace book is really
show how it can be a revenue driver.
What's unfortunate is that many companiesdon't know the actual cost of their
turnover, unfortunately, and so gettingto really understand talent costs,
(25:55):
turnover costs are going to be reallycritical and beginning to watch those
and have those in dollars and cents.
Looking at employee retention andturnover rates, really understanding
the high turnover rate, that's a signalthat there's some disengagement there.
There's a misalignmentwith the company culture.
Thinking about internal mobility,thinking about how we're growing our
(26:17):
own talent, we see that companies whoare growing their own talent, that helps
to reduce turnover, you have increasedloyalty because people want to stay, and
you're getting more value out of thoseemployees because they really understand
the culture and the job to be done.
The other thing that we'relooking at is just employee
engagement and wellbeing scores.
(26:37):
So again, what we saw during thepandemic was really eye opening and
sometimes we quickly forget someof the lessons we learned that were
good lessons during the pandemic.
We really were broughtinto people's home in Zoom.
We checked in with them.
We were concerned abouttheir health, their family.
Many times we forget that the thingsthat are happening in one's personal life
(26:59):
directly impacts them, how they are ableand their ability to show up at work.
So, making sure that we're remainingto be empathetic, that we're keeping
our finger on the pulse of how ouremployees are doing at work and outside
of work and understanding when thereare barriers that are coming up that
can impact work, that employees aresetting up a strategy to address those,
(27:21):
and this is such an important point.
There was a New York Times article severalmonths ago about a social worker in
Washington state that was experiencinghousing insecurity and she was living
outside of her car and her day-to-day jobworking for the state was to go in and to
counsel others and to be a social worker.
How can a worker do that ifthey're facing housing insecurity?
(27:45):
We're seeing some companies on the leadingedge of that, so they're reimagining
benefits to think about housing stipends,down payments, so people can actually
afford to live in the communitieswhere they work and in communities.
I live here in Massachusettswhere housing is high.
Transportation is expensive.
These are things that every board andcompany should be thinking about to
(28:09):
make sure that, again, not only can theyattract talent, but this talent that
come in, especially entry level, canafford to grow with them over the years.
Angela, how do Win-Win Workplacestrategies help mitigate risk?
We talk about one of the mostimportant functions of a board is
to help identify and address andmitigate risk for the company.
(28:31):
What strategies can companiesinstitute that will help mitigate risk?
When we wrote this book, what theresearch said and what we saw looking
across these companies is that whenyou're employing these Win-Win Workplace
strategies, it begins to protect thecompany from workforce instability,
(28:51):
and that becomes a huge risk forcompanies, can you find the right talent?
Can they show up and bein the mindset to work?
Reputational damage, like I mentionedon Glassdoor, LinkedIn, employees
are talking, they're talkingto each other all of the time.
Having a vibrant strategy andcompanies who keep their finger on
(29:12):
the pulse of employee sentiment canget ahead of anything, of trouble
before it comes down the pipe.
The one thing that wethink a lot about is.
Avoiding labor crisis.
Again, in a tight labor market, makingsure that we have the talent that
we need to innovate in the future.
The second thing that we're saying isthat the strengthening of brand trust.
(29:34):
When you have employees outthere, they're the ambassadors.
When they love where they work andwhat they do, they're out there
telling everyone, and they are ourfirst customers when you think about
it, if you're doing it the right way.
One thing that worries me in this momentwith the retrenchment of DEI and some
of the other human-centered policies isthat we are creating potentially a very
(29:56):
litigious environment where if people arelet go without reason or rationale, that
we're not following the letter of the law,if we've decided to change our strategy
overnight and decide that certain peoplecan't work here for certain reasons or
certain policies around gender, we needto be very cautious about that and about
(30:19):
the decisions that we're going to make.
For a couple of reasons.
One of them is legal, but the secondone is our employees are watching.
If six months ago, you said inclusionwas really important, and as a CEO, you
said that you were investing in that,and then six months later, you send out
an email and saying we're dropping allof these policies, what that signals
(30:42):
to your employee base is that youmay be a bit fickle in your policy.
It becomes that you're maybea bit more untrustworthy.
And what happens when employeesdon't entrust their leadership, that
increases the odds that they can leave,that we see this whole phenomenon
of quiet quitting, that they'rewaiting for the other shoe to drop.
(31:05):
It's a distraction from them beingfocused on work and the job to be done.
So, again, we know that certain policiesand procedures will need to be massaged.
They will need to be looked at again,but we should always center, one, the
company's values, also we should standfor what we stood for six months ago
shouldn't change six months later.
(31:27):
Maybe we need to iterate it and do it ina different way, and there's an allowance
for that, but we have to remain andstay consistent for our employee's sake.
Yeah.
If basic principles are important,they should remain important.
Really well said.
Thank you for that.
Angela, it has beengreat speaking with you.
Thank you for being backwith us as a guest today.
(31:49):
It's been wonderful tohear about your book.
And thank you all for listening to OnBoards with our very special guest,
Dr. Angela Jackson, and remember,great book launch event at Nutter
McClennen & Fish on March 26th.
We hope all of our listeners, allof them, will be there for that day.
(32:13):
Please visit our websiteat OnBoardsPodcast.com.
That's OnBoardsPodcast.com.
We'd love to hear your comments,suggestions and feedback.
And if you're not already a subscriber,please be sure to subscribe at
Apple Podcast, Spotify or whereveryou get your podcast, and remember
to leave us a five-star review.
(32:33):
And please tune in for thenext episode of On Boards.
Thanks.
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