April 8, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode hosts Joe Ayoub and Raza Shaikh welcome Susan Leahy, the founder of Robert’s Rules Made Simple. Susan has trained and advised thousands of board members, board chairs and others on how to master Robert’s Rules of Order, to help lead and participate in productive meetings.
Key Takeaways
1. History of Robert’s Rules of Order
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Robert’s Rules of Order is a decision making process developed in the 1800s by General Henry M. Robert, who was frustrated by disorganized meetings. Roberts created a guide, first published in 1876, which summarized and simplify parliamentary procedure to make understanding how to run an effective meeting accessible to everyone. It has, over the years, evolved into a detailed 700-page reference guide.
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2. Susan’s journey to Robert’s Rules
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Leahy was first introduced to Robert’s Rules when she and her mother enrolled into a local junior college course to learn about how to run an effective meeting. At that time, Leahy’s mother served on an all-male city council board and found that during the meetings, discussions and decisions weren’t clear. Understanding Robert’s Rules gave her mother confidence in the meetings and she was able to find her voice and she was able to be of service “ and she was able to find her voice and she was able to be of service.”
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Susan began using Robert’s Rules in high school and at college in connection with student government and became known for running effective meetings
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3. The value of effective board meetings
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Robert's Rules of Order increases the likelihood that meetings will be productive.
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At its core, the Rules are about promoting clarity and action. By following the Seven Fundamental Motions of Robert’s Rules meetings become more productive
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Robert’s Rules is only used to handle the business of meetings, not the entire meeting. Once board members learn the basics, then the board's productivity increases exponentially.
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Robert’s Rules are intended to provide everyone in the boardroom with a “common language” to help foster productive discussion and decision-making regarding the business of an organization.
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4. The role of a parliamentarian in board meetings
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A parliamentarian is a resource for the chair, ensuring meetings stay on track. The chair ultimately makes the final decision but can consult with the parliamentarian whenever needed.
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Quotes
”When you are on a board, you're either handling information items or business items, and when it comes to the business of a board, everyone on that board needs to understand the decision making process they're using in order to be productive and drive action.”
”You do not need to be a parliamentarian to use Robert's Rules of Order. It is a reference guide there to support you in making business decis
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
hello and welcome to On Boards a deepdive at what drives business success.
I'm Joe Ayoub and I'm here with myco-host Raza Shaikh twice a month.
On Boards is the place to learn aboutone of the most critically important
aspects of any company or organization.
its board of directors or advisors witha focus on the important issues that
(00:26):
are facing boards, company leadership.
And stakeholders.
Joe and I speak with a wide range ofguests and talk about what makes a board
successful or unsuccessful, what itmeans to be an effective board member.
And how to make your board one of themost valuable assets of your organization.
(00:48):
Before we introduce our guest, we wantto thank the law firm of Nutter McClennen
Fish, who, again, are sponsoring ourOn Boards summit, Nutter has been an
incredible partner with us in every way.
We appreciate all they'vedone to support this podcast.
Our guest today is Susan Leahy.
Susan is the founder of Robert's RulesMade Simple through which he has empowered
(01:10):
thousands of board members, board chairs,and support staff to master Robert's Rules
of Order, helping to transform meetingsinto productive and efficient experiences.
Susan is a dynamic and highly engagingspeaker, trainer and facilitator
specializing in board development,leadership, and effective meetings.
(01:34):
She has worked with organizations ofall sizes, from nonprofits to Fortune
500 companies and government entities.
She is the creator of the acclaimedChair a Meeting with Confidence Program
designed to help board chairs leadwith clarity, authority, and ease.
(01:55):
Susan has a degree in appliedbehavioral sciences, which combined
with her deep expertise of Robert'sRules, gives her a rare talent for
making even the most complex or drytopics, both accessible and engaging.
Susan, it's great to have youwith us today on On Boards.
I am glad to be here, Joe,Raza and everyone out there.
(02:20):
I am glad to be sharing a littlebit of life with everyone.
All right, so if I mention Robert'sRules of Order, unless I'm talking to
a chief governance officer or maybe aparliamentarian or someone who uses it
in meetings on a regular basis, the usualreaction is people's eyes glaze over.
(02:42):
Our hope is that this episode will changethat for everyone listening to this show.
So, let's start with the basicswhat is Robert's Rules of Order?
How did it come about, and whatwas the original idea behind it?
I think simply put, because that'swhat I like to do is make things
simple, Robert's is nothing morethan a decision making process.
(03:06):
When you are on a board, you're eitherhandling information items or business
items, that's it, and it's importantto understand that when it comes to the
business of a board, everyone on thatboard needs to understand the decision
making process that they're using inorder to be productive and drive action.
(03:28):
Robert's is a decision making processand it was developed way back in
the 1800s by a general in the Armynamed General Henry M. Robert, and
he actually was so confused by thestuff, he wrote a small book that he
self-published as Robert's Rules of Order.
(03:49):
People loved his meeting so much,they kept asking for his rules, and
he published it for the first timein 1876, so that's a little bit of
history about where Robert's came from.
And his goal was to summarize whatwas then the basic parliamentary law.
The book houses what's calledparliamentary procedure.
(04:11):
He wanted to make it simple.
And so what we as human beings have doneover the years since 1876, we've revised
the book literally a dozen times andwe've taken it from a small pamphlet
to a 700-page book, and the book, inmy opinion, is part of the problem.
It's too detailed for what the majorityof board members need to understand.
(04:35):
You do not need to be a parliamentarianto use Robert's Rules of Order.
It is a reference guide that is there tosupport you in making business decisions.
Now, why is that important?
That's important because if people donot have a common understanding about
how you're making business decisions,it's going to create tension, mistrust,
(04:58):
frustration and dare I just say,it's going to waste a lot of time.
Right, and that is obviouslysomething that no board, no board
chair, no CEO ever wants to happen.
Board time is so precious as it is.
One thing you said when we spoke thelast time was that, and I thought this
was a great way to look at it, Robert'sRules of Order increases the likelihood
(05:21):
that meetings will be productive, andthat to me is such a great way to think
about it to kind of counterbalancepeople's sometimes kind of response,
"Well, we don't need that kind offormality." But as you put it, it's
not meant to make it formal, it's madeto make it all accessible to people.
(05:42):
Yes.
Now, what makes it feel inaccessibleis that people don't have a common
understanding of the basics, and so I'mactually going to go back a little bit
because one of the key conversationsthat I have when I go in and I work
with any boards is I give everyone anequation and I say, time equals what?
Life.
Right.
There we go.
(06:02):
You know the answer here, but what weinevitably hear is that time equals money.
don't really anchor into thereality of why is it so important
to save time in our meetings.
Yes, you are savingyour organization money.
Yes, you are saving and beingmore productive, but at the end
of the day, the life of everysingle person in that room matters.
(06:25):
If you are a board of directorsthat can operate at the level of
life, then that's going to trickledown into your organization because
the life of your employees matters.
And if we can be playing the game atthat level, then all of a sudden the
decision making process becomes thatmuch more important because we're valuing
(06:46):
the life of the individuals who are inthe room and those who were impacting
with the decisions we're making.
So, let's go back to how you firstgot turned onto Robert's Rules,
not typical, I think, story.
It is not a typical story.
So, I love that you're giving methe space to share this story.
So, my mom actually served on thecity council of our small town in
(07:09):
California and she served on anall-male board, and I remember when I
first watched one of the city councilmeetings, my discussion with my mom
is, should we walked out the meeting?
I said, "When do you guys actuallyget work done? Felt like there was a
lot of discussion and people didn'tunderstand what was happening."
From that one conversation with mymom, she kind of talked about this
(07:29):
tool called Robert's Rules of Order,which they were supposed to be using
in their meetings, and my mom didn'treally understand or have any training,
and that's actually very common.
There's a lot of people who aredesiring to serve on boards who are
well intended, that have passion,but they haven't been trained.
And so it's that sense of, "Well, wheredo you go to seek out that training?"
(07:49):
So, my mom and I actually enrolled inour local junior college, and we took a
class, it was a mother-daughter bondingexperience back when I was a teenager,
and so that's when I started to learnabout Robert's Rules of Order and the
mechanics of running really good meetings.
It was an interesting tool thatI then started to use through my
student government career, my studentleadership career, and I kept getting
(08:13):
elected to the office of president.
It wasn't because I was the mostpolitical, it wasn't because I was the
most popular, it was because I couldreally run a great meeting, and that went
all the way through my college career.
I literally had the student bodypresident watch me chair a meeting
in my College of Agriculture.
I have a degree in food marketingand agricultural business.
(08:33):
But he saw me chairing a meeting inmy college and he literally after that
meeting walked me down and introducedme to who then became my running
mate, Annie Lou, and it was because Icould run a great meeting and it has
been a skill that has served me formy entire career and has then become
my career from my college career.
(08:54):
I then started running meetings.
So, I think the fact that you learnedit with your mother in this very
comfortable environment may havestarted you on the road to not view
it as most people view it, which issome foreign language in some ways.
For you, it was just part of what youwere sharing with your mother and she
(09:16):
was doing it, because as I recall,she was the only woman on the board.
She couldn't get awards inedgewise, but once she learned the
rules, suddenly things shifted.
She was able to find her confidenceand she was able to find her voice
and she was able to be of service.
Now, the twist in this story forme, and maybe where my passion for
this really comes from, is my momserved on that board for five years.
(09:39):
And while I'm not saying the board gaveher cancer, I am saying it didn't help
with the diagnosis that she receivednot too shortly after exiting the board.
I then went on to get a Master's inBehavioral Science, and I'm interested
in interpersonal communication and humanbehavior and I care about people, and
what I saw is that there was a directcorrelation to the toxicity of that board
(10:02):
and my mother's illness and I reallylook at Robert's Rules of Order as a
tool that can help foster a healthierboard dynamic, one that really helps
us remember that time equals life.
And when we can connect that way, thenwe can be the ultimate of productive.
So, you first produced a video calledRobert's Rules Made Simple in 2004.
(10:28):
What caused you to produce it, whatwas it and what has happened since?
Well, I decided back in the day, let'stry to produce a training video, and
as I think I shared with you not toolong ago, at the time I was dating
an editor in television and film, andso he had his expertise, I had mine
(10:49):
and it was our very first kind ofjoint project, and I think Robert's
almost kind of helped us get married.
Wow.
It showed that we actuallyhad complimenting skills
and we could work together.
And the really wonderful thing aboutRobert's Rules of Order is my husband
has never sat at a meeting table.
That's not his world.
He's never been on a board.
(11:10):
But what's so fascinating is becausehe's watched my videos, produced my
videos, he actually uses Robert's Rulesof Order as a way of communicating with
me in our marriage, and so once youunderstand Robert's formally, you can
apply it informally in any space whereyou're looking to get something done.
I think using it in marriage isprobably a different episode than today.
(11:31):
I think so.
I get it.
It's a common language.
It is a common language, yeah.
And it's giving order, and I alwayssay this about boards, and you could
probably say this about marriages, isthat marriages don't need to learn how to
be dysfunctional, just like boards don'tneed to learn how to be dysfunctional.
We've got that pegged.
(11:51):
But what we need to do is we need to makean emphasis on providing training that's
going to make us more high functioning.
How are we going to not just get itright, how are we going to be healthy?
And that's why I focus on healthyboard dynamics and using Robert's
Rules of Order as a tool to leveragea healthier dynamic on your board.
(12:13):
Susan, let's drill alittle more into this.
What is it about Robert's Rule thatmakes board meetings more effective?
Well, first of all, it's how youmake business decisions, that
will make your board more effective.
Your board isn't a board if it isn'tmaking business decisions, and if there
isn't a common understanding of howwe're going to get to those decisions,
(12:36):
then what you're left with is confusionand a little bit of chaos that can breed
mistrust, and are there other ways thatboards could be making business decisions?
Yes.
They could just be using general consent.
They could be using Sturgis.
There's other ways.
But if your constitution, your bylaws,say you're going to use Robert's Rules
(12:56):
of Order in order to make businessdecisions, then it's important that
everybody understands the fundamentals ofthat decision making process, and that's
what I focus on at Robert's Rules MadeSimple is how do we take that 700-page
book and not make it daunting, but makeit something that feels like we can learn
it collectively in a short period of timeand get it and put it to use quickly.
(13:22):
So, I've come up with a roadmap thatI call the Seven Fundamental Motions.
So, I want to make sure everyoneon the board understands the
seven fundamental motions.
And when everybody understandsthose, that those terms, those seven
fundamental motions, we collectivelyunderstand it, then the board's
productivity increases exponentially.
(13:42):
Would you say that is likely the bestway for training boards and board
members about Robert's Rules to bringit to the 80 20, 80% of the benefit is
coming from 20% of the book, I guess,and you've made it really simple.
Maybe talk about what are theseven questions and seven motions.
(14:06):
Yes.
So, before I introduce theseven fundamental emotions,
I share Susan's three laws.
Okay.
And so I think this is what's really keyto setting your board up for success.
The first law is that everyone on yourboard has to commit to learn the basics,
that Robert, and number two is thatRobert's Rules of Order should be used as
(14:27):
a team building tool, and number three,meetings should not be a waste of time.
So, I start with those three laws becauseI want to create a global commitment on
the board that everyone, it's not justthose people who are new to the board,
it's everybody has to be engaged inthis to make sure that we're all at the
same level and we have the same levelof understanding, because that's where
(14:50):
it breaks down a lot of times, as you'vegot Stan who's been on five boards,
you've got Martha who's brand new to aboard, you've got James who maybe has
some experience but is still feelinglike maybe he wants more education,
and we just make assumptions abouteverybody's experience with Robert's.
We need to make sure at the beginning ofthe term, everyone's committed to going
(15:11):
through the same training so that we knowwe're all speaking the same language.
And then after I share my laws, that'swhen I introduce Robert's Rules of
Order, because I want to make surewe're not using Robert's as a weapon.
How many times have you been on a boardand there's that one person who has
more information or more knowledge,and it feels like they're able to kind
(15:32):
of use it as a manipulative techniqueor make other people feel intimidated.
It's intended to make everyoneuse a common language as opposed
to one person using it to havekind of control the conversation.
Yeah, and if you don't have a commonunderstanding, what happens is it
does feel like a weapon and it canfeel divisive and manipulative.
(15:53):
Susan, going back to the modalitiesof how people learn, and different
people learn in different ways andyou have provided many ways for
boards to come up to speed to that.
Talk a little bit about that.
So, I am not a reader.
That's not how I learn.
And Robert's Rules of Order is a700-page book, I have made it all the
(16:13):
way through the book, but I did itwhile I was climbing on a stair climber.
I had to keep my body movingbecause it too made me fall asleep.
While I find many parts ofit riveting, most of it is as
interesting as watching paint dry.
I know for me, I'm not a reader.
I know some people are, so we dohave e-books that we provided in the
course, but most of my training isdelivered via video so that people can
(16:37):
actually see the language in action.
There's also scripts so that people canread along while they're watching it.
I want to make sure that this isaccessible to all the different
types of learning styles.
That is a tremendous resource.
So, I want to go back to somethingyou said earlier as to when Robert's
(16:58):
Rules is really used in a meeting.
So, it's not necessarily usedduring the whole meeting.
It's used during what you were referringto as the business portion of the meeting.
Just update us a little bit onwhat that means exactly, and
then we'll talk more about it.
I'm really glad, Joe, that you'resaying this again and having me kind
of repeat this because this is themisnomer, people will say, "Oh, well,
(17:20):
we use Robert's Rules of Order to runour meetings." And I'm always like, "Oh,
you only use Robert's Rules of Order tohandle the business of your meetings."
Now, I'm an auditory learner, so I'm goingto take you through one of my kind of
auditory exercises, so I know that thisis a podcast, so perfect venue for this.
I want you to think of informationitems as just information.
(17:41):
You want to move through them like this.
Come on, let's go, let's go.
You're quickly guiding peoplethrough, you're moving them along.
That's what information items shouldfeel like in a meeting because
information items are of no consequence.
They're just information.
But how many times in meetingsdoes the entire meeting get taken
up with information items andthen you zoom through business?
(18:02):
You're there to handle thebusiness of your meetings, so
information should be quick.
Members should be rigorous in theirdiscussion because all they should be
doing is asking clarifying questions.
There's no debate happeningduring an information item.
There's no real deep discussionhappening during an information item.
There's no opinions beinggiven during information items.
(18:24):
We all know that during information,people argue about that,
too.
I watch that, I find that that'sa training opportunity for a board
to invite the members to be morerigorous with how they're using
their voice during the meeting.
So, information should sound likethis for all my auditory learners
out there, let's go, let's go.
Business, Robert's Rules of Order has arhythm and it is a predictable rhythm.
(18:49):
You make a motion, you ask for asecond, you repeat the motion, you ask
for discussion, you discuss, you vote.
And I love this idea of the rhythm becausethe rhythm creates a predictability,
and the predictability creates afeeling of trust in the process.
But if you haven't learned the rhythm,then when you use Robert's Rules of
(19:12):
Order, it sounds like there isn't arhythm, so that's one of the things that
I teach when I work with my board chairsis the predictable rhythm of Robert's.
So, one of the things I asked youwhen we talked earlier was, in boards
of, let's say, a certain size, Isuppose if it's a very small board,
the answer to this would be no.
But in a larger board, what areyour thoughts about having either
(19:34):
a chief governance officer, anofficial parliamentarian, does
that matter or is it enough ifthe chair is really well trained?
So, I am a big believer in settingyour board chair up for success,
and so I look at the responsibilityof the parliamentarian as being
the person that the chair cango to if he or she gets lost.
(19:57):
What inevitably happens, and I talk aboutthis in my chair meeting with confidence
online training, what inevitably happensin a meeting when the chair gets lost
is everybody like surprisingly becomesan expert on what the chair needs to
do, and so everyone has an opinion andeverybody speaks and it becomes chaotic.
So, the role of the parliamentarianisn't necessarily to be the person who
(20:18):
knows most about Robert's Rules of Order.
They're there to be the person thatthe chair says, "One moment please. I'm
going to confer with the parliamentarianso that he or she can kind of take
a deep breath, get themselves backon track, and then let everyone in
the meeting know where we are on theagenda and how we're going to proceed."
So, when the parliamentarian gives heror his opinion, does the chair have to
(20:44):
accept it or can the chair determinehow they want to proceed based on the
information, but not necessarily followwhat the parliamentarian has said?
Again, the parliamentarianis not running the meeting.
So, ultimately, it is up to the chair.
And what I would encourage the chair todo is to make sure that they're developing
a relationship with a parliamentarianthat feels comfortable enough to, well,
(21:07):
is that parliamentarian just goingto shout out the answer, or is the
parliamentarian going to confer with theboard chair, which I think that looks a
little bit more eloquent in my opinion.
Because if all discussion has to gothrough the chair, then let the discussion
between the parliamentarian go throughthe chair and then be disseminated out.
But if you do have a parliamentarianthat's really well versed, hopefully he
(21:28):
or she is a great teammate to the chairand is really trying to set the chair up
for success, not compete with the chair.
I just love that point because we talka lot on the show about how vitally
important the role of the board chair is,and so anything that you can do within the
context of the meeting to make that chairsuccessful is obviously a great thing.
(21:51):
And the way you've put it, thatthe parliamentarian is there to
support the chair and really makethe chair more effective, I think
it's a great way to look at it.
Well, Joe, let's go one step furtherbecause this is what I don't think
we think about related to thisbecause we don't talk about a board
being a healthy board dynamic.
The truth is every single boardmember should be advocating
(22:11):
for the success of the chair.
Absolutely.
Of course, of course.
But that's not how it always works.
I don't want to spend a ton of time,but maybe go through the fundamental
seven questions just so peopleunderstand what you're talking about.
We're going to give the roadmap.
So, all of these are motions, andone of the things that I say is
that you need to understand a motionis nothing more than a question.
(22:33):
That's it.
That's how you introduceyour business question.
The first one is the main motion.
So, when you hear main motion,you should think main question.
You should always have a mainmotion or a main question on the
floor before any discussion occurs.
Because if there is no question,there should be no discussion.
So, you have the main motion.
You have an amendment.
(22:53):
The amendment allows you toadd something, to subtract
something from the main motion.
The next motion is amend the amendment,which allows you to add something to or
subtract something from the amendment.
Again, this is how we'remaking our decisions and
making the motion more robust.
The next one is postpone to adefinite or certain time, refer to a
(23:14):
committee, lay on the table, and myfavorite is previous question, which
when you hear previous question,you should think previous motion.
So, what that's saying is we'd liketo stop discussion and vote on the
previous motion, the previous question.
means the motion that'son the table at the time.
(23:36):
Now, if, let's say that we have amain motion and amendment and amend
the amendment and someone moves theprevious question, and if the previous
question passes, which are we voting on?
We're voting on the amendment to theamendment because it's the previous
question, the most recent, so there'sa hierarchy or precedents or precedents
(23:58):
in Robert's as you kind of make your wayup, so you must vote the same way down
in order to get to that main question.
One thing I wanted to just repeat isthe practice of repeating the motion,
because I know I've been in board meetingswhen it's just kind of get lost about
(24:18):
what you're actually talking about.
So moved.
Exactly.
They're so moved and I get it.
I do it too.
I get it.
But I think having it so that themembers of the board are always
familiar with exactly what the businessis, is really critically important.
This is one of the pieces that I teachwhen I go in and I work with board
(24:41):
members around how to be rigorouswith their discussion and debate.
Very few people have ever reallylearned how to debate a business
motion, and so I have three verysimple steps because repetition is
key in focusing everyone's attention.
So, the first step is just,again, repeating, regarding
the amendment to the amendment.
So, you make sure everybody knowswhat we're talking about regarding
(25:03):
the amendment to amendment.
Second step is it's my opinion, A, B,and C, and then the third step is so
important but overlooked a lot of times,tell people how you want them to vote,
so vote for this amendment to amendment,vote against the amendment to amendment.
How many times have you been in a meetingwhere somebody takes up a lot of space
and they say a lot of things, but you haveno idea what did you want me to do based
(25:26):
on every single meeting you've been in.
What we need to remember is we are thereto influence as well as be influenced.
We live in a world of influencers,and to me that's a little bit
imbalanced because being aninfluencer, it's a stale relationship.
You need to be able to be in relationshipwhere I can be the influencer,
(25:46):
but I can also be influenced.
That's what a healthy dynamic is, and weput too much emphasis on the influencer
and not enough emphasis on how healthy itis to be able to be on a board where maybe
I said to everyone, "Well, I encourage youall to vote for this," and then someone
stands up, has a different opinion, andyou influence my vote, and it's a healthy
(26:11):
enough dynamic that I could actuallychange my opinion, even though I stated
it one way, that's a healthy dynamic.
It sounds very civilized theway you've just described it.
And it's refreshing andit's high functioning.
So, Susan, I did order a copy of theRobert's Rules of Order's latest edition.
(26:32):
I did not read all 700 pages, butflipping through it, I did see that
there is a chapter and a sectionon what we all now face in this new
world, especially post-COVID, whichis virtual meetings, video meetings.
So, talk a little bit abouthow Robert's Rules and its
(26:54):
principles can be incorporatedinto online and virtual meetings.
Yeah, and again, they're incorporatedby making sure everybody understands
the fundamentals of the language.
They understand the sevenfundamental motions.
So, when it comes to a business decision,we're going to entertain a motion.
We're going to ask for a second.
We're then going to repeat the motion.
(27:14):
We're then going to ask for discussion,so there's this understanding
of how we're going to do it.
Then what Robert's talks about relatedto the virtual environment is that
it's so important that before any ofthat business is handled, before any
motions are made, that everyone on thatmeeting understands how they're going
to administer their vote, how you aregoing to be entertaining discussion.
(27:38):
So, all of the nuances, are yougoing to have your cameras on?
Are you going to have your cameras off?
How do you raise yourhand to be recognized?
So, all of the nuances of that virtualenvironment need to be defined clearly
before you engage in any business.
Information, it's not that important.
Joe's got a presentationthat's going to go 15 minutes.
(28:00):
Raza, you've got five minutes andthen we're going to finish up with
any clarifying questions you have.
Not a big deal how to handleinformation, but what Robert says is
when you start handling your business,make sure all of those things are
defined with respect to how yourorganization is going to handle them.
But even defining rules such as,please keep your camera on, it shows
(28:22):
respect and presence in the meetinghelps make it a more effective
meeting, how to juggle with should Iactually raise my hand on the video
or should I use the virtual meeting'shand raise button from that software
really helps you define those rules tomake virtual meetings more effective.
(28:43):
And Raza, I think what you're sayingis really important because what
we have to do is we have to empowerthe board chair because sometimes I
think it can feel like, "Am I playingschool grade teacher? Is this a
little too elementary?" No, it's not.
When you are in a virtual environment,especially as the chair, before you
embark on any business, make sure peopleunderstand how you're conducting the
(29:06):
business, because what you don't wantto have happen, and when I work with my
board chairs, I make sure that they getreally good at defining the rules before
they engage in business because nothingis worse than getting into business and
then having to go, "Okay, wait a minute.
We're all confused at howwe're going to do this.
Let's backtrack.
Now, I'm going to tell you howwe're going to... Please, if
everyone would mute your phone."
(29:29):
And now, we're wasting life, andso we have to make sure that we
empower our board chairs to feelconfident enough to have their list
of rules, to read their list of rulesbefore they embark on any business.
And Susan, I love that idea of thatconfidence training for board chairs.
(29:50):
So, talk a little bit more about that.
How do you do that?
How do you make a chair moreeffective with training?
So, this is where I think myunique background comes into play.
I have my Master's in Behavioral Science.
I've also studied every leadershiptraining you can imagine, from Seven
Habits to Stephen Covey's situationalleadership, everything in between, and
(30:14):
I really enjoy the art of facilitation.
When you think about public speaking,public speaking becomes public the
moment you walk outside your front door.
So, the first thing that I tell my boardchairs is that somewhere in your life
you're already a confident public speaker.
So, my training method is never abouthelping people find that they're
(30:35):
not confident, it's about findingthat they already are confident.
You wouldn't be where you areas a leader if you weren't able
to maintain and hold the space.
Now, we're just going to refine whatyou're already doing and we're going
to put it into the meeting room, andso when I work with my chairs, one of
the models I'll give is stay, becausewhen you think about human behavior,
(30:59):
when we're nervous, we tend to fightand flight and sometimes freeze.
That's the biological reactionto feeling intimidated.
So, I sat down and I thought about,what's the exact opposite of that?
If I'm not acting out of my biology,I want to operate outta my humanity.
What is humanity?
Humanity is when you stay, and so allof my board chairs will get up there.
(31:21):
If they're feelingnervous, they'll say, stay.
And stay stands for stopthinking it's about you.
Stay.
Because when we're in our insecurities,we're thinking about ourselves.
And when you're a really effectiveboard chair, you take nothing personal.
Stay, stop thinking it's about you.
You are there to honor the process ofa healthy dynamic, and so you've got
(31:46):
to get out of your own way and youhave to really stay and be present for
the individuals in the meeting room.
So, that's just one tip.
One part of my chair meeting withconfidence includes my confident public
speaking audio training for those whoare auditory learners and I also have an
e-guide, which is an e-book that you canalso review if you are a visual learner.
(32:07):
Susan, you also have these examplescripts for various situations
that can be very helpful.
I think that's a wonderful tool.
The biggest question I get from myboard chairs is, "Susan, what do I say
when people like to be kind of told.Give me a script." And I think once
you get the script and you see it, thenall of a sudden you can feel a little
bit more confident, and so I deal withinterventions in an interesting way.
(32:30):
So, as a board chair, one ofyour key roles is you have to
get good at making interventions.
They never feel good.
They always feel awkward,but their total necessity.
You are speaking up on behalf of everybodyin the meeting, and so when you're
making an intervention, I kind of haveit broken down in my mind in two parts.
You're either making a directintervention or an indirect intervention.
(32:52):
So, am I being direct by going, "Hey,Joe," and then having to give that
direct intervention, or am I kind ofspeaking to the group, "I just want to
just point out something I'm noticing."Because you can get a different effect.
Now, the interesting part of that iseveryone who's listening to it probably
had a reaction like, "Ooh, I would nevergo direct," and I would say whichever
(33:12):
one you feel like is scarier is theone that you need to lean into because
you're probably overusing the other one.
So, one isn't better than the other.
We just tend to overuse our comfort zone.
Yeah.
So, we do talk a lot more aboutinterventions and I've got a lot
more information about that, butthis really helps to build the
confidence of the board chairs.
(33:33):
And of course, probably the biggestpiece is that I script out all
of the meeting chair's agendas.
So, you send me your agenda, I willscript out your entire meeting, not just
with what to say related to Robert's,but it's also about how to deal with
the people side of meetings, becauseas a good chair, you have to be able
(33:54):
to handle the people and the process.
So, I help you with the words ofRobert's Rules of Order and how to
handle the business, but how do youstart the meeting so that you create a
powerful context, lots of information.
Susan, it's been greatspeaking with you today.
Thanks so much for joining us and thankyou all for listening to On Boards
(34:14):
with our special guest, Susan Leahy.
Please visit our websiteat OnBoardsPodcast.com.
That's OnBoardsPodcast.com.
We'd love to hear your comments,suggestions and feedback.
If you're not already a subscriber,please be sure to subscribe
at Apple Podcast, Spotify, orwherever you get your podcasts.
(34:37):
And remember to leaveus a five-star review.
And please tune in for thenext episode of On Boards.
hello and welcome to On Boards a deepdive at what drives business success.
I'm Joe Ayoub and I'm here with myco-host Raza Shaikh twice a month.
On Boards is the place to learn aboutone of the most critically important
aspects of any company or organization.
its board of directors or advisors witha focus on the important issues that
(00:26):
are facing boards, company leadership.
And stakeholders.
Joe and I speak with a wide range ofguests and talk about what makes a board
successful or unsuccessful, what itmeans to be an effective board member.
And how to make your board one of themost valuable assets of your organization.
(00:48):
Before we introduce our guest, we wantto thank the law firm of Nutter McClennen
Fish, who, again, are sponsoring ourOn Boards summit, Nutter has been an
incredible partner with us in every way.
We appreciate all they'vedone to support this podcast.
Our guest today is Susan Leahy.
Susan is the founder of Robert's RulesMade Simple through which he has empowered
(01:10):
thousands of board members, board chairs,and support staff to master Robert's Rules
of Order, helping to transform meetingsinto productive and efficient experiences.
Susan is a dynamic and highly engagingspeaker, trainer and facilitator
specializing in board development,leadership, and effective meetings.
(01:34):
She has worked with organizations ofall sizes, from nonprofits to Fortune
500 companies and government entities.
She is the creator of the acclaimedChair a Meeting with Confidence Program
designed to help board chairs leadwith clarity, authority, and ease.
(01:55):
Susan has a degree in appliedbehavioral sciences, which combined
with her deep expertise of Robert'sRules, gives her a rare talent for
making even the most complex or drytopics, both accessible and engaging.
Susan, it's great to have youwith us today on On Boards.
I am glad to be here, Joe,Raza and everyone out there.
(02:20):
I am glad to be sharing a littlebit of life with everyone.
All right, so if I mention Robert'sRules of Order, unless I'm talking to
a chief governance officer or maybe aparliamentarian or someone who uses it
in meetings on a regular basis, the usualreaction is people's eyes glaze over.
(02:42):
Our hope is that this episode will changethat for everyone listening to this show.
So, let's start with the basicswhat is Robert's Rules of Order?
How did it come about, and whatwas the original idea behind it?
I think simply put, because that'swhat I like to do is make things
simple, Robert's is nothing morethan a decision making process.
(03:06):
When you are on a board, you're eitherhandling information items or business
items, that's it, and it's importantto understand that when it comes to the
business of a board, everyone on thatboard needs to understand the decision
making process that they're using inorder to be productive and drive action.
(03:28):
Robert's is a decision making processand it was developed way back in
the 1800s by a general in the Armynamed General Henry M. Robert, and
he actually was so confused by thestuff, he wrote a small book that he
self-published as Robert's Rules of Order.
(03:49):
People loved his meeting so much,they kept asking for his rules, and
he published it for the first timein 1876, so that's a little bit of
history about where Robert's came from.
And his goal was to summarize whatwas then the basic parliamentary law.
The book houses what's calledparliamentary procedure.
(04:11):
He wanted to make it simple.
And so what we as human beings have doneover the years since 1876, we've revised
the book literally a dozen times andwe've taken it from a small pamphlet
to a 700-page book, and the book, inmy opinion, is part of the problem.
It's too detailed for what the majorityof board members need to understand.
(04:35):
You do not need to be a parliamentarianto use Robert's Rules of Order.
It is a reference guide that is there tosupport you in making business decisions.
Now, why is that important?
That's important because if people donot have a common understanding about
how you're making business decisions,it's going to create tension, mistrust,
(04:58):
frustration and dare I just say,it's going to waste a lot of time.
Right, and that is obviouslysomething that no board, no board
chair, no CEO ever wants to happen.
Board time is so precious as it is.
One thing you said when we spoke thelast time was that, and I thought this
was a great way to look at it, Robert'sRules of Order increases the likelihood
(05:21):
that meetings will be productive, andthat to me is such a great way to think
about it to kind of counterbalancepeople's sometimes kind of response,
"Well, we don't need that kind offormality." But as you put it, it's
not meant to make it formal, it's madeto make it all accessible to people.
(05:42):
Yes.
Now, what makes it feel inaccessibleis that people don't have a common
understanding of the basics, and so I'mactually going to go back a little bit
because one of the key conversationsthat I have when I go in and I work
with any boards is I give everyone anequation and I say, time equals what?
Life.
Right.
There we go.
(06:02):
You know the answer here, but what weinevitably hear is that time equals money.
don't really anchor into thereality of why is it so important
to save time in our meetings.
Yes, you are savingyour organization money.
Yes, you are saving and beingmore productive, but at the end
of the day, the life of everysingle person in that room matters.
(06:25):
If you are a board of directorsthat can operate at the level of
life, then that's going to trickledown into your organization because
the life of your employees matters.
And if we can be playing the game atthat level, then all of a sudden the
decision making process becomes thatmuch more important because we're valuing
(06:46):
the life of the individuals who are inthe room and those who were impacting
with the decisions we're making.
So, let's go back to how you firstgot turned onto Robert's Rules,
not typical, I think, story.
It is not a typical story.
So, I love that you're giving methe space to share this story.
So, my mom actually served on thecity council of our small town in
(07:09):
California and she served on anall-male board, and I remember when I
first watched one of the city councilmeetings, my discussion with my mom
is, should we walked out the meeting?
I said, "When do you guys actuallyget work done? Felt like there was a
lot of discussion and people didn'tunderstand what was happening."
From that one conversation with mymom, she kind of talked about this
(07:29):
tool called Robert's Rules of Order,which they were supposed to be using
in their meetings, and my mom didn'treally understand or have any training,
and that's actually very common.
There's a lot of people who aredesiring to serve on boards who are
well intended, that have passion,but they haven't been trained.
And so it's that sense of, "Well, wheredo you go to seek out that training?"
(07:49):
So, my mom and I actually enrolled inour local junior college, and we took a
class, it was a mother-daughter bondingexperience back when I was a teenager,
and so that's when I started to learnabout Robert's Rules of Order and the
mechanics of running really good meetings.
It was an interesting tool thatI then started to use through my
student government career, my studentleadership career, and I kept getting
(08:13):
elected to the office of president.
It wasn't because I was the mostpolitical, it wasn't because I was the
most popular, it was because I couldreally run a great meeting, and that went
all the way through my college career.
I literally had the student bodypresident watch me chair a meeting
in my College of Agriculture.
I have a degree in food marketingand agricultural business.
(08:33):
But he saw me chairing a meeting inmy college and he literally after that
meeting walked me down and introducedme to who then became my running
mate, Annie Lou, and it was because Icould run a great meeting and it has
been a skill that has served me formy entire career and has then become
my career from my college career.
(08:54):
I then started running meetings.
So, I think the fact that you learnedit with your mother in this very
comfortable environment may havestarted you on the road to not view
it as most people view it, which issome foreign language in some ways.
For you, it was just part of what youwere sharing with your mother and she
(09:16):
was doing it, because as I recall,she was the only woman on the board.
She couldn't get awards inedgewise, but once she learned the
rules, suddenly things shifted.
She was able to find her confidenceand she was able to find her voice
and she was able to be of service.
Now, the twist in this story forme, and maybe where my passion for
this really comes from, is my momserved on that board for five years.
(09:39):
And while I'm not saying the board gaveher cancer, I am saying it didn't help
with the diagnosis that she receivednot too shortly after exiting the board.
I then went on to get a Master's inBehavioral Science, and I'm interested
in interpersonal communication and humanbehavior and I care about people, and
what I saw is that there was a directcorrelation to the toxicity of that board
(10:02):
and my mother's illness and I reallylook at Robert's Rules of Order as a
tool that can help foster a healthierboard dynamic, one that really helps
us remember that time equals life.
And when we can connect that way, thenwe can be the ultimate of productive.
So, you first produced a video calledRobert's Rules Made Simple in 2004.
(10:28):
What caused you to produce it, whatwas it and what has happened since?
Well, I decided back in the day, let'stry to produce a training video, and
as I think I shared with you not toolong ago, at the time I was dating
an editor in television and film, andso he had his expertise, I had mine
(10:49):
and it was our very first kind ofjoint project, and I think Robert's
almost kind of helped us get married.
Wow.
It showed that we actuallyhad complimenting skills
and we could work together.
And the really wonderful thing aboutRobert's Rules of Order is my husband
has never sat at a meeting table.
That's not his world.
He's never been on a board.
(11:10):
But what's so fascinating is becausehe's watched my videos, produced my
videos, he actually uses Robert's Rulesof Order as a way of communicating with
me in our marriage, and so once youunderstand Robert's formally, you can
apply it informally in any space whereyou're looking to get something done.
I think using it in marriage isprobably a different episode than today.
(11:31):
I think so.
I get it.
It's a common language.
It is a common language, yeah.
And it's giving order, and I alwayssay this about boards, and you could
probably say this about marriages, isthat marriages don't need to learn how to
be dysfunctional, just like boards don'tneed to learn how to be dysfunctional.
We've got that pegged.
(11:51):
But what we need to do is we need to makean emphasis on providing training that's
going to make us more high functioning.
How are we going to not just get itright, how are we going to be healthy?
And that's why I focus on healthyboard dynamics and using Robert's
Rules of Order as a tool to leveragea healthier dynamic on your board.
(12:13):
Susan, let's drill alittle more into this.
What is it about Robert's Rule thatmakes board meetings more effective?
Well, first of all, it's how youmake business decisions, that
will make your board more effective.
Your board isn't a board if it isn'tmaking business decisions, and if there
isn't a common understanding of howwe're going to get to those decisions,
(12:36):
then what you're left with is confusionand a little bit of chaos that can breed
mistrust, and are there other ways thatboards could be making business decisions?
Yes.
They could just be using general consent.
They could be using Sturgis.
There's other ways.
But if your constitution, your bylaws,say you're going to use Robert's Rules
(12:56):
of Order in order to make businessdecisions, then it's important that
everybody understands the fundamentals ofthat decision making process, and that's
what I focus on at Robert's Rules MadeSimple is how do we take that 700-page
book and not make it daunting, but makeit something that feels like we can learn
it collectively in a short period of timeand get it and put it to use quickly.
(13:22):
So, I've come up with a roadmap thatI call the Seven Fundamental Motions.
So, I want to make sure everyoneon the board understands the
seven fundamental motions.
And when everybody understandsthose, that those terms, those seven
fundamental motions, we collectivelyunderstand it, then the board's
productivity increases exponentially.
(13:42):
Would you say that is likely the bestway for training boards and board
members about Robert's Rules to bringit to the 80 20, 80% of the benefit is
coming from 20% of the book, I guess,and you've made it really simple.
Maybe talk about what are theseven questions and seven motions.
(14:06):
Yes.
So, before I introduce theseven fundamental emotions,
I share Susan's three laws.
Okay.
And so I think this is what's really keyto setting your board up for success.
The first law is that everyone on yourboard has to commit to learn the basics,
that Robert, and number two is thatRobert's Rules of Order should be used as
(14:27):
a team building tool, and number three,meetings should not be a waste of time.
So, I start with those three laws becauseI want to create a global commitment on
the board that everyone, it's not justthose people who are new to the board,
it's everybody has to be engaged inthis to make sure that we're all at the
same level and we have the same levelof understanding, because that's where
(14:50):
it breaks down a lot of times, as you'vegot Stan who's been on five boards,
you've got Martha who's brand new to aboard, you've got James who maybe has
some experience but is still feelinglike maybe he wants more education,
and we just make assumptions abouteverybody's experience with Robert's.
We need to make sure at the beginning ofthe term, everyone's committed to going
(15:11):
through the same training so that we knowwe're all speaking the same language.
And then after I share my laws, that'swhen I introduce Robert's Rules of
Order, because I want to make surewe're not using Robert's as a weapon.
How many times have you been on a boardand there's that one person who has
more information or more knowledge,and it feels like they're able to kind
(15:32):
of use it as a manipulative techniqueor make other people feel intimidated.
It's intended to make everyoneuse a common language as opposed
to one person using it to havekind of control the conversation.
Yeah, and if you don't have a commonunderstanding, what happens is it
does feel like a weapon and it canfeel divisive and manipulative.
(15:53):
Susan, going back to the modalitiesof how people learn, and different
people learn in different ways andyou have provided many ways for
boards to come up to speed to that.
Talk a little bit about that.
So, I am not a reader.
That's not how I learn.
And Robert's Rules of Order is a700-page book, I have made it all the
(16:13):
way through the book, but I did itwhile I was climbing on a stair climber.
I had to keep my body movingbecause it too made me fall asleep.
While I find many parts ofit riveting, most of it is as
interesting as watching paint dry.
I know for me, I'm not a reader.
I know some people are, so we dohave e-books that we provided in the
course, but most of my training isdelivered via video so that people can
(16:37):
actually see the language in action.
There's also scripts so that people canread along while they're watching it.
I want to make sure that this isaccessible to all the different
types of learning styles.
That is a tremendous resource.
So, I want to go back to somethingyou said earlier as to when Robert's
(16:58):
Rules is really used in a meeting.
So, it's not necessarily usedduring the whole meeting.
It's used during what you were referringto as the business portion of the meeting.
Just update us a little bit onwhat that means exactly, and
then we'll talk more about it.
I'm really glad, Joe, that you'resaying this again and having me kind
of repeat this because this is themisnomer, people will say, "Oh, well,
(17:20):
we use Robert's Rules of Order to runour meetings." And I'm always like, "Oh,
you only use Robert's Rules of Order tohandle the business of your meetings."
Now, I'm an auditory learner, so I'm goingto take you through one of my kind of
auditory exercises, so I know that thisis a podcast, so perfect venue for this.
I want you to think of informationitems as just information.
(17:41):
You want to move through them like this.
Come on, let's go, let's go.
You're quickly guiding peoplethrough, you're moving them along.
That's what information items shouldfeel like in a meeting because
information items are of no consequence.
They're just information.
But how many times in meetingsdoes the entire meeting get taken
up with information items andthen you zoom through business?
(18:02):
You're there to handle thebusiness of your meetings, so
information should be quick.
Members should be rigorous in theirdiscussion because all they should be
doing is asking clarifying questions.
There's no debate happeningduring an information item.
There's no real deep discussionhappening during an information item.
There's no opinions beinggiven during information items.
(18:24):
We all know that during information,people argue about that,
too.
I watch that, I find that that'sa training opportunity for a board
to invite the members to be morerigorous with how they're using
their voice during the meeting.
So, information should sound likethis for all my auditory learners
out there, let's go, let's go.
Business, Robert's Rules of Order has arhythm and it is a predictable rhythm.
(18:49):
You make a motion, you ask for asecond, you repeat the motion, you ask
for discussion, you discuss, you vote.
And I love this idea of the rhythm becausethe rhythm creates a predictability,
and the predictability creates afeeling of trust in the process.
But if you haven't learned the rhythm,then when you use Robert's Rules of
(19:12):
Order, it sounds like there isn't arhythm, so that's one of the things that
I teach when I work with my board chairsis the predictable rhythm of Robert's.
So, one of the things I asked youwhen we talked earlier was, in boards
of, let's say, a certain size, Isuppose if it's a very small board,
the answer to this would be no.
But in a larger board, what areyour thoughts about having either
(19:34):
a chief governance officer, anofficial parliamentarian, does
that matter or is it enough ifthe chair is really well trained?
So, I am a big believer in settingyour board chair up for success,
and so I look at the responsibilityof the parliamentarian as being
the person that the chair cango to if he or she gets lost.
(19:57):
What inevitably happens, and I talk aboutthis in my chair meeting with confidence
online training, what inevitably happensin a meeting when the chair gets lost
is everybody like surprisingly becomesan expert on what the chair needs to
do, and so everyone has an opinion andeverybody speaks and it becomes chaotic.
So, the role of the parliamentarianisn't necessarily to be the person who
(20:18):
knows most about Robert's Rules of Order.
They're there to be the person thatthe chair says, "One moment please. I'm
going to confer with the parliamentarianso that he or she can kind of take
a deep breath, get themselves backon track, and then let everyone in
the meeting know where we are on theagenda and how we're going to proceed."
So, when the parliamentarian gives heror his opinion, does the chair have to
(20:44):
accept it or can the chair determinehow they want to proceed based on the
information, but not necessarily followwhat the parliamentarian has said?
Again, the parliamentarianis not running the meeting.
So, ultimately, it is up to the chair.
And what I would encourage the chair todo is to make sure that they're developing
a relationship with a parliamentarianthat feels comfortable enough to, well,
(21:07):
is that parliamentarian just goingto shout out the answer, or is the
parliamentarian going to confer with theboard chair, which I think that looks a
little bit more eloquent in my opinion.
Because if all discussion has to gothrough the chair, then let the discussion
between the parliamentarian go throughthe chair and then be disseminated out.
But if you do have a parliamentarianthat's really well versed, hopefully he
(21:28):
or she is a great teammate to the chairand is really trying to set the chair up
for success, not compete with the chair.
I just love that point because we talka lot on the show about how vitally
important the role of the board chair is,and so anything that you can do within the
context of the meeting to make that chairsuccessful is obviously a great thing.
(21:51):
And the way you've put it, thatthe parliamentarian is there to
support the chair and really makethe chair more effective, I think
it's a great way to look at it.
Well, Joe, let's go one step furtherbecause this is what I don't think
we think about related to thisbecause we don't talk about a board
being a healthy board dynamic.
The truth is every single boardmember should be advocating
(22:11):
for the success of the chair.
Absolutely.
Of course, of course.
But that's not how it always works.
I don't want to spend a ton of time,but maybe go through the fundamental
seven questions just so peopleunderstand what you're talking about.
We're going to give the roadmap.
So, all of these are motions, andone of the things that I say is
that you need to understand a motionis nothing more than a question.
(22:33):
That's it.
That's how you introduceyour business question.
The first one is the main motion.
So, when you hear main motion,you should think main question.
You should always have a mainmotion or a main question on the
floor before any discussion occurs.
Because if there is no question,there should be no discussion.
So, you have the main motion.
You have an amendment.
(22:53):
The amendment allows you toadd something, to subtract
something from the main motion.
The next motion is amend the amendment,which allows you to add something to or
subtract something from the amendment.
Again, this is how we'remaking our decisions and
making the motion more robust.
The next one is postpone to adefinite or certain time, refer to a
(23:14):
committee, lay on the table, and myfavorite is previous question, which
when you hear previous question,you should think previous motion.
So, what that's saying is we'd liketo stop discussion and vote on the
previous motion, the previous question.
means the motion that'son the table at the time.
(23:36):
Now, if, let's say that we have amain motion and amendment and amend
the amendment and someone moves theprevious question, and if the previous
question passes, which are we voting on?
We're voting on the amendment to theamendment because it's the previous
question, the most recent, so there'sa hierarchy or precedents or precedents
(23:58):
in Robert's as you kind of make your wayup, so you must vote the same way down
in order to get to that main question.
One thing I wanted to just repeat isthe practice of repeating the motion,
because I know I've been in board meetingswhen it's just kind of get lost about
(24:18):
what you're actually talking about.
So moved.
Exactly.
They're so moved and I get it.
I do it too.
I get it.
But I think having it so that themembers of the board are always
familiar with exactly what the businessis, is really critically important.
This is one of the pieces that I teachwhen I go in and I work with board
(24:41):
members around how to be rigorouswith their discussion and debate.
Very few people have ever reallylearned how to debate a business
motion, and so I have three verysimple steps because repetition is
key in focusing everyone's attention.
So, the first step is just,again, repeating, regarding
the amendment to the amendment.
So, you make sure everybody knowswhat we're talking about regarding
(25:03):
the amendment to amendment.
Second step is it's my opinion, A, B,and C, and then the third step is so
important but overlooked a lot of times,tell people how you want them to vote,
so vote for this amendment to amendment,vote against the amendment to amendment.
How many times have you been in a meetingwhere somebody takes up a lot of space
and they say a lot of things, but you haveno idea what did you want me to do based
(25:26):
on every single meeting you've been in.
What we need to remember is we are thereto influence as well as be influenced.
We live in a world of influencers,and to me that's a little bit
imbalanced because being aninfluencer, it's a stale relationship.
You need to be able to be in relationshipwhere I can be the influencer,
(25:46):
but I can also be influenced.
That's what a healthy dynamic is, and weput too much emphasis on the influencer
and not enough emphasis on how healthy itis to be able to be on a board where maybe
I said to everyone, "Well, I encourage youall to vote for this," and then someone
stands up, has a different opinion, andyou influence my vote, and it's a healthy
(26:11):
enough dynamic that I could actuallychange my opinion, even though I stated
it one way, that's a healthy dynamic.
It sounds very civilized theway you've just described it.
And it's refreshing andit's high functioning.
So, Susan, I did order a copy of theRobert's Rules of Order's latest edition.
(26:32):
I did not read all 700 pages, butflipping through it, I did see that
there is a chapter and a sectionon what we all now face in this new
world, especially post-COVID, whichis virtual meetings, video meetings.
So, talk a little bit abouthow Robert's Rules and its
(26:54):
principles can be incorporatedinto online and virtual meetings.
Yeah, and again, they're incorporatedby making sure everybody understands
the fundamentals of the language.
They understand the sevenfundamental motions.
So, when it comes to a business decision,we're going to entertain a motion.
We're going to ask for a second.
We're then going to repeat the motion.
(27:14):
We're then going to ask for discussion,so there's this understanding
of how we're going to do it.
Then what Robert's talks about relatedto the virtual environment is that
it's so important that before any ofthat business is handled, before any
motions are made, that everyone on thatmeeting understands how they're going
to administer their vote, how you aregoing to be entertaining discussion.
(27:38):
So, all of the nuances, are yougoing to have your cameras on?
Are you going to have your cameras off?
How do you raise yourhand to be recognized?
So, all of the nuances of that virtualenvironment need to be defined clearly
before you engage in any business.
Information, it's not that important.
Joe's got a presentationthat's going to go 15 minutes.
(28:00):
Raza, you've got five minutes andthen we're going to finish up with
any clarifying questions you have.
Not a big deal how to handleinformation, but what Robert says is
when you start handling your business,make sure all of those things are
defined with respect to how yourorganization is going to handle them.
But even defining rules such as,please keep your camera on, it shows
(28:22):
respect and presence in the meetinghelps make it a more effective
meeting, how to juggle with should Iactually raise my hand on the video
or should I use the virtual meeting'shand raise button from that software
really helps you define those rules tomake virtual meetings more effective.
(28:43):
And Raza, I think what you're sayingis really important because what
we have to do is we have to empowerthe board chair because sometimes I
think it can feel like, "Am I playingschool grade teacher? Is this a
little too elementary?" No, it's not.
When you are in a virtual environment,especially as the chair, before you
embark on any business, make sure peopleunderstand how you're conducting the
(29:06):
business, because what you don't wantto have happen, and when I work with my
board chairs, I make sure that they getreally good at defining the rules before
they engage in business because nothingis worse than getting into business and
then having to go, "Okay, wait a minute.
We're all confused at howwe're going to do this.
Let's backtrack.
Now, I'm going to tell you howwe're going to... Please, if
everyone would mute your phone."
(29:29):
And now, we're wasting life, andso we have to make sure that we
empower our board chairs to feelconfident enough to have their list
of rules, to read their list of rulesbefore they embark on any business.
And Susan, I love that idea of thatconfidence training for board chairs.
(29:50):
So, talk a little bit more about that.
How do you do that?
How do you make a chair moreeffective with training?
So, this is where I think myunique background comes into play.
I have my Master's in Behavioral Science.
I've also studied every leadershiptraining you can imagine, from Seven
Habits to Stephen Covey's situationalleadership, everything in between, and
(30:14):
I really enjoy the art of facilitation.
When you think about public speaking,public speaking becomes public the
moment you walk outside your front door.
So, the first thing that I tell my boardchairs is that somewhere in your life
you're already a confident public speaker.
So, my training method is never abouthelping people find that they're
(30:35):
not confident, it's about findingthat they already are confident.
You wouldn't be where you areas a leader if you weren't able
to maintain and hold the space.
Now, we're just going to refine whatyou're already doing and we're going
to put it into the meeting room, andso when I work with my chairs, one of
the models I'll give is stay, becausewhen you think about human behavior,
(30:59):
when we're nervous, we tend to fightand flight and sometimes freeze.
That's the biological reactionto feeling intimidated.
So, I sat down and I thought about,what's the exact opposite of that?
If I'm not acting out of my biology,I want to operate outta my humanity.
What is humanity?
Humanity is when you stay, and so allof my board chairs will get up there.
(31:21):
If they're feelingnervous, they'll say, stay.
And stay stands for stopthinking it's about you.
Stay.
Because when we're in our insecurities,we're thinking about ourselves.
And when you're a really effectiveboard chair, you take nothing personal.
Stay, stop thinking it's about you.
You are there to honor the process ofa healthy dynamic, and so you've got
(31:46):
to get out of your own way and youhave to really stay and be present for
the individuals in the meeting room.
So, that's just one tip.
One part of my chair meeting withconfidence includes my confident public
speaking audio training for those whoare auditory learners and I also have an
e-guide, which is an e-book that you canalso review if you are a visual learner.
(32:07):
Susan, you also have these examplescripts for various situations
that can be very helpful.
I think that's a wonderful tool.
The biggest question I get from myboard chairs is, "Susan, what do I say
when people like to be kind of told.Give me a script." And I think once
you get the script and you see it, thenall of a sudden you can feel a little
bit more confident, and so I deal withinterventions in an interesting way.
(32:30):
So, as a board chair, one ofyour key roles is you have to
get good at making interventions.
They never feel good.
They always feel awkward,but their total necessity.
You are speaking up on behalf of everybodyin the meeting, and so when you're
making an intervention, I kind of haveit broken down in my mind in two parts.
You're either making a directintervention or an indirect intervention.
(32:52):
So, am I being direct by going, "Hey,Joe," and then having to give that
direct intervention, or am I kind ofspeaking to the group, "I just want to
just point out something I'm noticing."Because you can get a different effect.
Now, the interesting part of that iseveryone who's listening to it probably
had a reaction like, "Ooh, I would nevergo direct," and I would say whichever
(33:12):
one you feel like is scarier is theone that you need to lean into because
you're probably overusing the other one.
So, one isn't better than the other.
We just tend to overuse our comfort zone.
Yeah.
So, we do talk a lot more aboutinterventions and I've got a lot
more information about that, butthis really helps to build the
confidence of the board chairs.
(33:33):
And of course, probably the biggestpiece is that I script out all
of the meeting chair's agendas.
So, you send me your agenda, I willscript out your entire meeting, not just
with what to say related to Robert's,but it's also about how to deal with
the people side of meetings, becauseas a good chair, you have to be able
(33:54):
to handle the people and the process.
So, I help you with the words ofRobert's Rules of Order and how to
handle the business, but how do youstart the meeting so that you create a
powerful context, lots of information.
Susan, it's been greatspeaking with you today.
Thanks so much for joining us and thankyou all for listening to On Boards
(34:14):
with our special guest, Susan Leahy.
Please visit our websiteat OnBoardsPodcast.com.
That's OnBoardsPodcast.com.
We'd love to hear your comments,suggestions and feedback.
If you're not already a subscriber,please be sure to subscribe
at Apple Podcast, Spotify, orwherever you get your podcasts.
(34:37):
And remember to leaveus a five-star review.
And please tune in for thenext episode of On Boards.
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