A Tale of Secrecy and Intrigue: The William Morgan Affair

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey Chris, yeah, fred , what's a Mason?
That's a really good question,fred.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
You've reached the internet's home for all things
masonry.
Join Chris and I as we plumbthe depths of our ancient craft,
from the common gavel to thetrowel.
Nothing is off the table, sograb your tools and let's get to
work.
This is On the Level.
Oh yeah, we are back.
We are back.

(00:34):
Wow, wow, happy holidays,brother.
Hey, happy holidays.
The reason I say that right offthe bat is because, yikes man,
the holidays are getting in theway of our podcasting.
Yikes.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Getting in the way of everything, oh my gosh.
It's like life doesn't want usto have hobbies.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, right, yeah, is this a hobby, I guess?
So, yeah, it's a hobby.
It's a hobby, absolutely Righton man, right on.
Well, if you are listening tous right now, you are thinking
to yourself yeah, thanks, guys,you dropped the ball last week.
Where was last week's podcast?
Last week's podcast is thisweek's podcast, because Chris

(01:15):
and I both are just absolutelybonkers out of control busy.
Yeah, with so many not onlymasonic stuff, but just life in
general has just thrown somemajor, major curves our way, man
, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
Are you wanting to talk a little bit about what's
going?

Speaker 2 (01:32):
on in your life.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
I got, I had the song from Weird Ale popping in my
head when you were talking aboutus abandoning the listeners.
Yes, we left them all alone inthe gas station of love and had
to use the self service pump.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, that's an old, weird Ale song.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Weird Ale is awesome.
I love it.
We love Weird Ale.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh, there's a cool movie about his life.
Oh, I saw it.
It's like a joke About hismovie, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
It's kind of like a documentary, but not really.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, way overdone and satire yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, he's great Back from the Dr Demento days.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Oh God, you're familiar with Dr Demento 94.7
KMET.
Los.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Angeles in the 80s Sunday nights at 7 o'clock, Dr
Demento.
There's some people out therewho are just like I can't
believe.
He just said that.
I know they remember it.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
I heard of it until I saw that movie, and I wasn't
even sure if it was real.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Dude, I'm so old I listen to it live.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Wow, oh wow.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
I used to listen to it live man, because I was that
kind of a weird geek.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
That's awesome.
I mean, I would have too, if Iwas listening to the radio back
then.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
It was so inappropriate I mean by today's
standard.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Oh my God, today it's probably like Charles.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Wood, it would be absolutely banned.
Oh really Every social mediaplatform.
Absolutely Some of the stuff.
What's that?
One song Pencilneck, geek,gritty, freak, scum sucking
P-head with a lousy physique.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh my.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
God, nothing but a pencilneck geek.
This is a song that they played.
Oh, I know Dr Demento playedthat song every time.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
He just like weird stuff that wasn't mainstream.
Basically Way off mainstream.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
You were a total geek , weirdo geek, if you were into
Dr Demento, which apparently Iwas.
I don't know, I guess I was.
I never really thought about it.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Weirdo couldn't have existed without that.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
I mean, I pulled that song right out of memory Just
now.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
It must have really had it in there.
It must have been deep.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Deep.
I had Demento Deep, deep in thepsyche man.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Your brain was Demento-ized.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
So yeah, so you've got a few changes going on.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
In your life.
You want to talk a little bitabout that, or you want to just
say that for never.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yes, the surgery's planned.
My name will be Christine.
I'm kidding.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
The brain is available and the transplant is
ready.
The transplant is ready.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
It's a discount because it's missing some
serious amounts of neuron,giving me both brother.
No, I actually wound up beingone of the I think 300,000
people that took advantage ofthe housing market in Florida,
sold my house and I'm buying ahome a little further north, but
still in the south, about anhour drive from here in South

(04:09):
Carolina.
I'll be relocating to Sumter,South Carolina Woo, so that's
going to be a big change for meand it's all happening before
Christmas.
Well, I live in Florida and Ithought you know what?
Let me see my house hasappreciated so much value.
I'll just listed it theridiculously high end.

(04:30):
And I got a cash offer insideof a week and it was yikes.
Not what I listed it at, but itwas at the number ahead of my
head of if someone offered this,I'd really folks, I know that
number.
It's bonkers.
It's stupid that still this ishappening.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
Someone's buying house cash cash money for that
much, yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
But then you know, my wife, you know, has impeccable
taste, and so they're like, wewant everything in the house.
So I'm starting even your piano.
Piano I kept.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Oh, good for you, my piano.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
For the piano, I'm keeping my bedroom set my
clothes, my books and my pianoright on everything else that is
so awesome.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
The robot Did they buy the robot?

Speaker 1 (05:13):
No, okay, I think they would know about that robot
.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
I thought, it was a toy.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
I do have a robot.
I have an astro Amazon astro inmy house.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
I know he's so cool.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
He's cool.
It's like a little mobile Alexa.
He follows you around with ascreen face and answers anything
.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Little creepy, always watching, always watching.
Yeah, little creepy.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, you're watching TV and you look over and the
things just staring at youBlinking.
You're like what Get out ofhere?
We literally get away, Go andhe has to run off and charge
because he's creepy.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
He's a little creepy, anyway.
So that's happening.
So what's going to happen withthe podcast?
What's going to happen withfree masonry in Florida 147?
What's going on with all thatman?

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Well, you tell me what's happening with 147.
I've definitely done the best Icould with everything that I've
done in free masonry.
I'm hoping that I'm allowed tocontinue to work in all the
things that I've been doing,including membership in Florida,
especially in our lodge.
I want to continue to make thecalls and set up appointments.

(06:16):
Yeah, yeah, right I havebusiness here in Florida, so
I'll be headquartered inLakewood Ranch, Florida.
Nice, so I'll be coming backhere at least once a month and
I'm going to try to arrangethose around our state of
meeting nights so I can be atleast a somewhat useful past
master to our lodge.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
Right right.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
So this is going to switch from third year into
fifth year.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
That's right.
We're not even going to.
We've already got a plan, guys.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
We've already got a plan in place.
We're going to open this bitchup on the highway and just let
it go.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
This is the year of OTL man, it is going to happen.
So I'm setting up a studio inmy home, in my man cave, so that
Chris can call in From my mancave From his man cave and we'll
do it remotely and nothing willchange on your guy's end.
As far as the podcast isconcerned, It'll be exactly the
same Higher quality, just higherquality, more quantity, more

(07:04):
quantity and it'll just.
And now we're going to do OTLfrom two different states, which
I think is great, because I'msure you're going to get
involved locally in Masonic Lifeup there.
I just can't imagine you notdoing that.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
We'll see All their lodges only meet once a month
there.
So it's like wow.
I called around and asked acouple lodges.
There is one old one, fiveminutes for me, that I will be
looking at eventually.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
How cool is that.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
But that's two states that will be in physically but
we're getting intertwined intoTexas a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yep Texas is that.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
We'll be talking to some people there, probably
traveling at some point there.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Maybe we'd even go to their grand lodge.
I would love it, love it, loveit, love it.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
We've got a lot going on in January, so probably not
this year.
We have our Masonic EducationSymposium.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yes, the 13th of January.
Did you get your tickets?
Did you get your tickets?

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Did you get?

Speaker 2 (08:00):
your tickets.
I'm talking to you, listener.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
They have not got their tickets.
Get your tickets.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
We got 70 plus commitments and X amount of sold
.
So get your tickets, becausethis is what happens there is a
limited amount of seating forthis event and what's going to
happen is, as soon as we getinto the holidays, into
mid-December, those tickets aregoing to start flying off the
shelf.
So get them now.
And of course, you want to getthem online, not at the door,

(08:30):
because they're going to be moreexpensive at the door.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
So yeah, go to onthelevelwithFredandChriscom
and you'll see it right there atthe homepage and they'll
explain who's going to be there.
You'll get the whole schedule.
We'll have Masonic speakerslike Juan Sepulveda Sepulveda.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
I'm not even going to try it.
I haven't had enough coffee.
Juan, we love you bro.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yeah, well, he's a great speaker.
Yeah, he's going to be awesomeand he'll be talking about
communion with the divine.
That involves a lot ofastronomy and Masonry.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
He's heavily into that man Woo, I love it.
Yeah, yeah, and he's a greatspeaker.
He's very engaging.
It's awesome.
And are other speakers?
Daniel Molina out of Miami yeah, Worshipful Daniel Molina out
of Miami.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
He'll be speaking about stoicism and.
Freemasonry.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Man, there's a real connection between stoicism and
Freemasonry and I can't wait tohear about it.
Sepulveda.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
I'm going with Sepulveda and we have René.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
Perez out of New York .
He's a Mason out of New Yorkthat's coming to speak, and our
keynote speaker will be our veryown, talia Attala.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
That's going to be great.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
The senior Grand Warden of Freemasonry will be
there to give a talk.
He doesn't want to give aspeech, he wants to have a
conversation.
So come out and have aconversation with Worshipful
Talia Attala about the future of.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Freemasonry that's going to be.
I love the fact that he didthat.
He was like, yeah, I'll do it,but I'm not going to stand up
there and give a speech.
We're going to have aconversation and that's what
we're all about.
You guys know that.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
That's what this podcast is all about Music to my
ears.
Yeah, man, really.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's going to be great.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
So we had a little mock conversation for like 30
minutes and he was so excited.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
I'm like it's going to be just like this.
Just like this, only better.
That's right, that's right, andso that's going to be a lot of
fun.
So, yeah, big changes in yourlife, brother.
I just want to, I just want tocongratulate you and I want to.
I told you this when you firsttold me about it on the phone,
and I'm going to say it on airas well.
You, sir, are a badass Becauseyou had a dream, you had a

(10:33):
vision, and you followed thatvision and it paid off in a
really magnificent way.
And I'm telling you right now,99% of the men out there would
not do that.
So there's a lot of people whohave the opportunity, they have
everything they need at theirdisposal to do it, and they
don't do it for fear.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
And you did it, and you did it.
It's real.
The fear is real.
The fear is real.
It is real.
But look at what happened.
Look at what happened.
Well, they say, when you're onthe path, the path will appear
to you.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, well, it certainly did, for you brother.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Everything just lined up and was pointing me that
now's your time.
Like if you're going to do it.
Now's the time, and so I acted.
You know how we roll.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
I know, yeah, that's right, that's how we roll.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
And I'm going to do the opportunity that life gives
me.
So I took it and so far thingsappear to be lining up, which is
always encouraging.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
Right yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
When things start falling apart, you start to
question yourself like wait, amI making a horrible mistake?
But luckily nothing's fallingapart.
Everything just lined up in mybusiness and my personal life
and all the things that had tohappen for me to get to this
point so quickly.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
It doesn't change anything for you with regard to
Florida Masonry.
You're just a dual membership.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
My home lodge will always be Sarasile Lodge 147.
My funeral will be read as myhome lodge.
Right, that's right, and I hopeyou're there to help with those
services.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, I'm a little older than you, so I probably
won't be there for your funeral.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
I'll be out in the afternoon.
You know who knows how muchshoot myself in the face
accidentally with a shotgunbecause I don't know what I'm
doing.
Yeah, no, that's not happeningeither, so but yeah, I got
several acres up there and amuch bigger home and a lot of
money in my pocket, which I wasreading.
You know we're living throughone of the greatest migrations
in human history.

(12:16):
Right now, it's true, theamount of people migrating, you
know, in Florida just in Floridahow many people flocked here
from New York and California.
I just met.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
As you guys know that , I changed jobs and decided to
start my own business go backinto plumbing.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
How's that going?

Speaker 2 (12:36):
And it's going well.
It's going really well Likethis.
The networking is going verywell, but it's just my ability
to and anybody starting a smalltrades business knows this.
Lead generation is alwaysabundant, but it's a full-time
job to stay on top of it Workingyour leads, yeah, Working those
leads.

(12:56):
it's tough, and so once I getthat settled, then this is going
to be very lucrative for sure.
There's no doubt about that.
So I met, through networking, ayoung man.
His name he calls himself Bobby, but he's Ukrainian From Oregon
.
Speaking of mass migration, heand his entire Ukrainian

(13:19):
community migrated.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
Are they in?

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Northport.
Some of them are in Northport.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, it was a big Ukrainian community in Northport
.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
Well, they all migrated here and they want meat
and they're all loaded.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
They're all absolutely loaded because they
Are they from Oregon, or didthey pass like is this part of
the war migration?
No, no.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
They were from Oregon .
The war migration came toOregon, obviously, but they're
Like.
He looked me in there.
He said the values of Oregonare not the values of us and we
decided to move to Florida andthey all moved here and there's
like 30 of them that came withtheir families their money,
their business opportunities,everything they just poured into

(14:01):
Florida, and this is not anisolated issue.
So this is the mass, like yousaid, mass migration is
happening to Right.
It's coming all over, you know,to all different places, which
is creating a lot of opportunity.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
And so and creating a lot of traffic.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
We're Get used to it, folks here in Florida, you
might as well get used to it.
All of Florida is going tobecome Orlando in season, and
you can just see it here inBradenton and Sarasota.
They just cleared enough landover on Conquistador.
If you don't live here, youdon't know where that is.
But Conquistador is goingtowards Northwest Bradenton and

(14:44):
it was just a two-lane roadforever and ever.
Well, it used to be tulipfields many, many years ago, and
there's hundreds and hundredsand hundreds of acres of flat
land out there.
They now announce a developmentof 6,500 dwellings on that
stretch.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
I think Florida is too heavy.
Give us some weight here, guys.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
They're saying that 70% of those 6,500 dwellings are
already spoken for Holy cow.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, I mean, think about it.
Ever since COVID it's beenreally.
I mean, we've always been aplace where people come to have
a second home or retire Becauseof the summers.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Everybody wanted to leave during the summer.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
We have the beautiful beaches We've got Disney, all
this good stuff, but ever sinceCOVID it's been on another level
.
The amount of migration herehas been insane.
Our property values have beenskyrocketing and rent has gone
way up.
So what's happened is I'm oneof like 300,000 people that have
left.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Florida that are from Florida.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Because all these people have come, driven up all
the costs, and now the nativesare leaving and they're
generally going to North andSouth Carolina and Georgia and
Tennessee, places like that andnow we're bringing all of our
values there and all of thesepeople have come here and are
bringing all of their.
What I find crazy about it isit's like we've always had a lot

(16:07):
of New Yorkers, right.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
And I don't know how many I've met.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
They're like yeah.
I'm from Brooklyn, whatever,and it's like you're so proud to
be from that place, but youalso wanted to get the hell out
of that place and you're reallybringing it with you.
All the culture, all the thingsthat you both love and hate
you're bringing here, so it'sgoing to be wherever you go,
you're still going to be there,right?
And I feel like they'rebringing a lot of their issues

(16:32):
with them.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
It's true, it's true and that happens.
Hopefully, the majority ofpeople who uprooted their entire
lives because of you know theenvironment, the community,
their community was turning intosomething they didn't want.
Hopefully they'll come here andthey won't bring that part with
them.
They'll remember why they left.

(16:54):
It's a big deal, you know.
Right now You're going throughit right now.
It's a big deal to uproot yourlife, especially in a 30-day
period.
You literally did this in 30days.
Yeah, you know, you just likelike pulling a tooth right out
of your head with no novocaineis what you did.
Yeah and so you're gonnaremember the reasons why and I'm
hoping that the majority ofpeople come down here remember

(17:15):
the reasons why they left.
You know, New York State is anabsolute terrible place to live.
We have family up there andthey tell us I have family in
California, the same thing.
They don't come here got thestate tax.
Well, and it's.
It's just that the, the entiresystem is so broken.
California is falling apart.
The roads, the bridges, thebuildings that the government

(17:38):
facilities, everything iscompletely in disarray and
falling apart, yet the cost ofliving there is continuing to
rise, higher and higher andhigher and the same thing in New
York.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
right, complain to my friends in New York about the
cost living here and they laughlike, yeah, that's expensive.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, living in Manhattan, yeah, no the property
taxes are, you know it closelybecoming six-figure?
You know opportunities for thegovernment.
You know it's like yeah.
It's becoming an absolutelyunsustainable place to live and
we're traveling to Washington DChere this weekend to go up to
tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
I'm listening to this Wednesday morning.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, that's right.
Oh gosh tomorrow.
Geez, I am, I am not ready.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
And watch.
You are ready, sir?
Excuse me, sir.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
If you're not ready you are ready.
Washington DC same thing, man.
It's just that it's aridiculously crowded, expensive
dirty.
The nation's capital is fallingapart, the infrastructure is
broken, the whole system isbroke.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Anyways, why are we going?
Why am I going?

Speaker 2 (18:43):
down this road.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
They got some great bars and drink yourself happy in
DC that you can do that and weprobably will.
Well, yeah, just happy, not sad, drink ourselves sad not sad,
I'm not sad.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
I'm not sad, I'm optimistic.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of stress.
Stress level is through theroof.
Yep me too, the you knowthere's a serious excitement to
what's happening in my life andI think in yours too.
Absolutely your life has turnedupside down as well.
Yeah, you lost someone that youlove.
Yeah, your job is changingafter all.
This time you got a lot ofchange happening all at once as

(19:17):
well.
Yep, isn't it weird how thatworks.
It's like our cycles have linedup or menstruating together.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
Oh, that's gross.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
But it's true, my life is as upside down as yours,
right, right.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
I know right, we're kind of on on this path.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Well, and the one thing that we both agreed is got
to be center is this show.
Yeah, that's what craziness ishappening.
The show is an anchor.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
It's an anchor and it will go forward.
We both committed to.
2024 is OTL's year.
Yeah, we are gonna kick thisthing to the up to next level
and see and see where God bringsbrings us.
On.
The other side of this is iswhat we're gonna do and that's
what I've been praying for.
I am, as people know, a man ofprayer.
I pray every morning and myprayer has been that that my, my

(20:01):
walk and my understanding ofGod would become so entrenched
in who I am and what I do, andmy, my caution to everyone out
there is careful what you prayfor, because you might get it.
So be very careful.
I am grateful that I am gettingwhat I've asked for, but it is.
This is part of that upheavalof my, of my entire life.

(20:23):
2023 was a year for me ofreorganizing and reprioritizing
my life and the things thatmatter to me most.
And then, well, if you'rereorient, reorganizing and
reprioritizing things, what doesthat mean?
Well, it means that the newyear, this new year, is time to

(20:45):
put some things into action.
Yeah you know, and to, and tosee where this goes, and, and,
and and the podcast, my, thebusiness I'm starting, your
business is changing.
You're going to a remoteSituation which is has its
challenges, but also has a lotof benefits to it.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
You know yeah so you'll be freed up to to do a
lot more, and there was a senseof failure in that that We've
been planning to do this forlike the years right.
So we've been doing the hybridthing, trying to test the waters
.
Yeah you know, I've really beenthe holdout of doing the remote
thing because I feel I'mold-fashioned in so many things.
I'm old-fashioned right, and Ireally believe the.

(21:25):
You know, just people sendingin an office together gives you
different opportunities andworking remotely.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
It's always going to be optimal.
Yeah face-to-face officeconference is always going to be
optimal, but people don't wantthat.
But people don't want to wantto be home.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
And they don't want to pay for the gas and deal with
the travel.
Like you know, I'm stubbornlyholding on.
So now we made the decisionbefore.
That decision is what allowedus to take the other steps of
like right.
See, hey, what the heck?
Let's see, let's see.
So now that I'm talking toother friends that have similar
businesses, they've all beenfull remote for a long time

(22:01):
right.
Even huge.
There's a Company that sold fora billion dollars.
Wow it's a big company that'sin my industry and they've been
full remote since COVID.
Wow and I'm thinking what am Idoing over here?

Speaker 2 (22:14):
And they're making it .

Speaker 1 (22:15):
It's working right obviously you can do it, and so
once you know you make the harddecision, a lot of other things
start to line up.
And that's right what you said.
You know there's some kind ofprovidence that I'm not
questioning.
I'm here to walk the path righton, man.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Like you know, we're warriors, we're here to do that.
We will fight, we will fight,but we're not cowards, we won't
shy away.
I mean, a little upstairs helps, I was gonna say, speaking of
cowards, but let's, let's letthat one go.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
I'm right here.
No, no, I'm not in front of younot you, not you, but anyway.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
So what's going on at the lodge lately?
What?
What's 147 up to?
And then we'll get into ourcontent here in a second.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
We're full on doing a toys for top drive, trying to
raise some Money to buy toys andactually get toys for the kids
in our right, right, yeah, thisis kind of new for us.
We we haven't done this in someyears, trying to be so out in
our community, and I really gotto give it to Alberto Pato,
who's the chairman of ourcharity committee.
He's rallying a lot of peopleand support yeah, it's not

(23:14):
obviously just him, but theguy's doing his job.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
He is and I got to give him credit for the big time
man he really take.
He took it seriously.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
It's a thankless job that we do a lot of the stuff
and Freemasonry, and so you know, if you wind you up in a
leadership position, please takethe time to thank the people
that are working hard.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
They deserve it, that's the only currency we have
right.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
Pay them their wages, pay them their way man deserves
to be recognized for what he'sdoing, and now he's come in
Three times this week todecorate the lodge and put a
tree up.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
That's awesome man.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
He's a great others that are with him in the
committee.
You know Sean Cooney is anotherone.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
I think driving a lot of that.
Yep, yeah, sean, shout out toSean, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
We.
This is why I'm okay with it.
I think our lodge is in atotally different place than it
was.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Oh, yeah, years ago, absolutely I feel like it's just
strong.
It's strong.
Right now, everything'severything's good and we have
elections coming up.
Yes so that'll solidify theoutcome of those elections and
the changes that have to be madethere Will solidify the future
of the lodge.
You know, there's a lot ofthings that this current line

(24:19):
and Then the line after that isgoing to be very Determinative.
They've got, they've got a big,huge thing coming their way.
If everything goes the way wethink, it is the sale of the
sale of the air rights andproperty has been progressing
well, has been progressing well,and it probably and there's no
reason why it won't happen thatmeans that our lodge 147

(24:41):
Sarasota is going to get aninflux of a massive amount of
money Into its coffer, whichchanges things money that bit.
I've been in organizations.
I've been in churchorganizations and all around
that kind of subparatürkorganizations, rescue missions.
I worked on staff at a rescuemission that was worth 36

(25:01):
million dollars in Denver,colorado, and that changes
things.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
So we'll see Talking about 1.5 million dollars right,
a lot of money, a lot of money,a lot of money is go according
to the contract in the planright right and Our job this
year was to get that deal doneright, which, although difficult
, in my opinion is the easierpart of the whole thing, because

(25:26):
Whoever's responsible when themoney comes in right?
A whole another set ofchallenges, and that's yeah, and
that's totally my point, thatwill.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
The strength of the line this year and next year
will be tested.
Yeah that it will be tested,because money changes everything
and when you see a giganticMountain of money come pouring
in there, everybody's intentionsand everybody's you know where
they're at is going to be tested, and I think that there's some
strong, strong leadership inline there.

(25:56):
Yes if the elections go the wayI think they're gonna go and I
have no, I mean I'm just onevote, but but you know, if it
goes the way I think it's gonnago, then you know, I think
there's some men in in linethere that could really take 147
and make a real you know, areal difference in the community
and in masonry there, and Ihope they do, you know, I hope

(26:19):
they do.
I, you and I will probably bemore on the sidelines Because of
the podcast.
It's our desire to and we shouldbe to go national and represent
the craft nationally with thepodcast.
That's kind of our goal in theback of our minds, which is
probably going to necessitatethat we take a position on the
sideline a little more.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, we're gonna have to travel.
Yep, I imagine we'll betraveling to many states and
doing some interviews if, if itgoes the way I I wanted to go.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yes, that will be the case and we'll get to meet all
you guys out there who we wetalked to all the time from
around the country and maybeeven from around the globe,
about the craft and what doesmasonry have to offer this
country, you know, in the future?
Does it have anything to offer,and what is that that it has to
offer?
That's kind of where that's thequestion we're gonna be asking

(27:09):
in 2024, you know.
Do we have anything to offerand if so, what is it?
And and then, and then fromthere, how do we help Lodges
around the country implement it?

Speaker 1 (27:21):
I think that that's the big one for me.
We Hear a lot of people talkabout how much they wished there
was more masonic education,right?
Right, right people drone onabout it all the time.
Well, look, fred and I areabout put up or shut up put up
or shut up.
I'm not gonna get you.
You want masonic education.
Come on you a full day, fromnine to five, of solid Masonic

(27:45):
education.
Now, whether you show up or not,that's on you, yeah yeah and
that'll dictate, that'll tell usif this is something that you
really do want is real masoniceducation.
Right if you show up and youguys really do enjoy this like
we do in everything, we willpublicize Exactly how we went
about setting this up.

(28:06):
We need to talk to you,organize the event.
We'll put the whole play plantogether for other States and
other districts do these kindsof events.
Yeah and you know we'll pick itup and refine it and hopefully
keep doing more and get betterand better at it, and we'll be
very public about all of that sothat everyone can benefit.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Not financially necessarily, but you know,
benefit from Producing realmasonic education.
That's right.
Any people as possible, that'sright.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, and and then in my mind, you know the officers
throughout the state of Florida.
You know it's if, if we couldget a representative from every
lodge, or generally you know agood mix of every lodge
throughout the state, to show upto this symposium and take back
with them Not only theeducation that they got, but the

(28:54):
idea, yeah, of education, backto their lodge and or their
district and Go to their masterMason Association meeting and
say, hey, look, what 23 is doingand and can we do that?
How do we do that?
Let's get a hold of these guysand let's start doing this
masonic education, so that, sothat we have something to offer.

(29:15):
That's gonna be my big thing,that's my theme for 2024.
What, what are we doing?
Okay, so we have a hugeorganization with a ton of money
, that and, and a governmentalsystem with a grand lodge all
the way down to the local BlueLodge In place right now.
So what can we?

(29:36):
What can we do to benefit thefuture of this country, like,
like the in the early days ofthis country that Masonry did so
Spread light, man and andbringing men together, you know,
under a desire for fellowship,to be good men, to seek truth
and to benefit those around us,because we need it.

(29:57):
We need it badly and and Ithink this is an avenue For
change anyways, I'm preaching.
So what are we talking abouttoday, brother?
What's Are we going to talkabout, cuz I?

Speaker 1 (30:09):
have no idea we're divulging from the Florida State
educational system.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
Are we know?

Speaker 1 (30:15):
and we're branching out into the wonderful world of
Masonic mysteries.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Sonic mystery, that's right, masonic mysteries, and
this particular been sonicmystery is known as the Morgan
affair.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah, I think is a great title.
The.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Morgan affair, that's so awesome it is.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
It is.
The Morgan affair is somethingthat people Probably have heard
of the story.
They may not know the details,but they know there was a case
where Mason's murdered somebody.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yes, that's what we're talking about.
We're not talking about thechildren and the goats and all
that stuff.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
We're talking about an actual man yes.
I'll let me let me.
We do want to talk about thegoats, we do.
We will get to that.
We are gonna talk about wheredid all this stuff come from?

Speaker 2 (31:00):
right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
We're gonna take it point by point and we're gonna
talk about it on this show andwe're gonna show both sides of
the story.
The facts that we have and ourinside information is mason's,
that's correct.
I'll help you Get a morewell-rounded picture of some of
this stuff, william Morgan.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Who was he?
Well, william Morgan was bornin 1774 and he disappeared In
1826, was a resident of Batta Va, new York, whose disappearance
and presumed murder in 1826ignited a powerful movement
against the Freemasons, afraternal society that had
become Influential in the UnitedStates, you think.

(31:38):
After Morgan announced hisintention to publish a book
exposing Freemasonry's secrets,he was arrested on trumped-up
charges.
His disappearance soon after.
And what His this?
He disappeared soon after andwas believed to have been
kidnapped and killed by masonsfrom Western New York.
The allegations surroundingMorgan's disappearance and

(32:00):
presumed death sparked a publicoutcry and inspired thorough
weed and others to harness thediscontent by focusing the new
Anti-masonic party in oppositionto President Andrew Jackson's
Democrats.
It ran.
It ran a presidential candidatein 1832, but was nearly defunct

(32:25):
completely by 1835.
Not a long run there.
So that's William Morgan.
He was, by occupation, a stonecutter, a bricklayer, a
storekeeper and an author.
So that's interesting to methat he was in the trades.
He was a tradesman.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
But it goes on to say you got anything on on your, so
this was from Wikipedia.
So, you know, take it for whatit is.
If you've got informationthat's that disputes any of this
, you know, speak up guys,because what you know Wikipedia
is, it's a community base, so itcould be, it could be wrong so
there is some publishedinformation on Freemasonry dot

(33:06):
BC.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
This is British Columbia now.
Oh okay, the Canadians.
He was a Canadian Mason.
This is where he apparentlybecame a Mason was in Canada.
What you're talking about iswhen he was living in upstate
New York right now they'resaying this is a Canadian, you
know Official publication andthey're saying that they cannot

(33:29):
confirm he was ever made a Masonright that says that here as
well.
It's doubt there's no recordsof his raising or lodge
membership, but it is documentedthat he did receive the royal
arch in the Western Star chapterRam number 33 of the Royal New
York on May 31st 1825 right, andWikipedia verifies that as well

(33:51):
as you're reading it?
Oh, really yep.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yep, same thing.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
They Suppose that he was an eavesdropper and light
his way into a lodge inRochester.
Correct, it was a little easier, probably back then than it is
today.
We have all these wonderfulapps and things that we can use.
Right, you can firm, but backthen they didn't.
But they think he imposed on afriend or an employer who
vouched for him to get him intoWells Lodge, number 282 and

(34:15):
Batavia, which is, I think,where you said he was yeah,
batavia, batavia, batavia.
So he was active in Masonry fora time, but so so let me.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
If he received the royal arch degree, that then
he's definitely was raised amaster.
Mason Right, you can't receivethe royal arch unless you're
raised, this is 1825.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
Okay, like, how did they verify things?

Speaker 2 (34:41):
You were generally vouched for by somebody right,
that's how you probably got andyou had to.
You had to know the so he'sfrom.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
Canada.
He's got a friend saying ohyeah, he's good, he's good, he's
from Canada, he's a Mason, andthey let him in the lodge.
He becomes a lodge member andthen, as a member of a lodge,
he's able to get into the York.
Right now, keep in mind,there's no, we document certain
things in free masonry.
Okay, we always have we alwayswill.
The memberships that we bring inwhen they become entered

(35:10):
apprentices, fellow crafts andmaster masons is Documented.
Always has been, always will beright.
So, as a Mason, we can tell youthat the fact that there are no
records of him being Initiated,past and raised tells us that
most likely he wasn't an actualMason.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
Right, not not really right, right, the here in
Wikipedia.
Under disappearance, it says,since Masons place their hands
on a Bible and promised not toreveal the passwords and grips
of the degrees.
Several members of the BataviaLodge published an advertisement
Denouncing Morgan for breakinghis word by authoring the book
so this will talk about the book.

(35:49):
This is what got him into thehot and attempt was also made to
set fire to Miller's newspaperOffice and print shop.
So this was the man, this.
I moved ahead, but this is thebook that he he planned on
publishing, revealing all of thesecrets of Masonry.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
So let's get to why he was doing that, or why he
even thought about doing that.
Right he is now.
Imagine you got into a lodge ofMasons in New York.
It's a big city Rochester it'sprobably not that big, it's like
you know it's like I'm fromthere, and when I grew up there
it was like we were the rednecksof the North, like is that

(36:30):
right?
It's not a huge city, it wasn'twhen I lived there, so
certainly couldn't have been.
He was there.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
I've never been past the city, so I don't know
anything about anything.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Rochester I mean in these towns.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
I think I went on a class trip somewhere up there.
I know it was cold and I wantedto go home.
That's all, yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
So he's in a lodge.
He's now active in the lodges,he's doing Masonic speeches,
he's participating in degreesOkay, it's documented that he
become.
He actually signs the charterfor the Royal Arch.
However, although he did allthese things, he did take part
in degrees and do speeches andyou know he actually signed to

(37:12):
become a founding member of theRoyal Arch Chapter.
He signed the petition butsuspicion of his regularity
began to grow and his name wasomitted as a member when the
Charter was granted.
So at some point they startedto become wise.
Like wait a second.
Funny for Mason from you know heshould know certain things and

(37:34):
he didn't, but he learned a lotEven though he wasn't.
You know, as a master, masonwere pretty open about things.
So if you're able to sneak yourway into a lodge, you would be
able to find out a lot of oursecrets.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
For sure, absolutely, you absolutely would.
If we let you in as a presumedmaster Mason, you'd know
everything.
Yes, all you have to do is showup and pay attention.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Right, and you're gonna do degree work and stuff,
so you're gonna literally seeright this, the rituals and the
secrets.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
This is the reason why we, you know, do the things
we do as far as keeping the doorclosed and keeping our secrets
a secret.
But anyway, go on.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
It became known that he was not regular and this
Started to hurt his reputationin the fraternity and, like I
said, they removed his name fromthe petition of becoming a
Royal Arch and this made himquite disenfranchised with the
fraternity, I guess you couldsay.
And it became known that he hadapplied for a copyright on a

(38:37):
book which was to expose Masonicritual secrets and procedures.
This is an expose that he wasgonna write and he obviously
he's not that involved inMasonry.
Now he was probably kind ofshunned in the Masonic community
.
I'm sure they were mad atthemselves.
Think of how lax they must havebeen right in that lodge to not

(38:57):
Right follow up and where'sGrand Lodge?

Speaker 2 (39:00):
But we've seen it with our own eyes.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
People come in and if someone you know, vouchers for
the guy.
Oh yeah, okay, all right, yeah,Okay, no problem right it
happens and that's a decisionthat every man Worshipful master
in the state of Florida ispersonally responsible for is to
check that stuff right, I knowyou went through that once.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
We had a bunch of Grand Lodge guys in and then
there was some visitors and andwe were.
We had to stop and actually dothe work To verify who they were
.
And one one man was not allowedin into the master.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
Yes, that's right because of it, yeah he could not
show.
And we could not verify.
It was vouched for but theperson vouching was not even
initiated yet right.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
So it was like, sorry , man, we can't do that, and it
was the right way to go.
Had the Grand Lodge guys notbeen there, we probably
potentially might have let himin.
Yeah that's just one example.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
tough tough, it was a tough call like sit, not yeah,
but you have to protect thefraternity right.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
That's the whole point, right we do have rules.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
So this man is now got a contract to write a book.
He he contracts with three mento publish this work with them.
David C Miller, an enteredapprentice of 20 years.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
So he remained an enter apprentice for 20 years 20
documented, he was stopped fromadvancement for costs.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Now, from what I understand in New York I don't
know if it was back then, butnow and correct me if I'm wrong,
guys, but entered apprenticescan sit in on on stated meetings
.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah, I don't know if every jurisdiction is this way
but in the state of Florida youcan.
We are required to open in themaster Mason degree but we can
drop the lodge down to a lowerdegree like the entered
apprentice degree and conductbusiness.
Yes, okay, I didn't know thatyou can't conduct business of
the lodge, but you can conductbusiness in the inner apprentice
degree right.

(41:01):
So I think, on anything youknow important, but you can do
Masonic education.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
There are jurisdictions where Entered
apprentices and fellow, grabscan sit in on A meeting for the
for the purpose of conductingbusiness that comes before it a
lot of lodges.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Today, the green lodge jurisdictions are looking
at this because, right, ourmembership is dwindling
everywhere and they're like, hey, let these guys come to the
meeting, let's just get theminvolved.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Right, so they're looking at legislation to let
the EAs become full membersbefore they're even through the
degrees because, yes, openingand closing of the lodge is is
above their pay grade.
I get that, but really it's abusiness meeting once, once it's
opened and there's no reason tokick them out.
But something has to be.
You got to figure something outthere.

(41:49):
How do you Right we're, we're,we're opening in a master Mason
degree and EAs are in the room.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Well, that kind of defeats even two years ago, I
think, or maybe three within thelast few years, someone
proposed legislation in Floridathat we allow business to be
done in the enter apprenticedegree.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
I don't know why you wouldn't it wasn't, didn't pass.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
People thought that wasn't a good idea, right into
Florida.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Well, and that's probably because the only people
voting our master.
Absolutely so, all right, allright, all right.
So the book, the book onFreemasonry.
Let me read this paragraph herefor awful Wikipedia the under
book on Freemason, morgan claimto have made, to have been made
a master Mason while he wasliving in Canada and and he

(42:35):
appears to have brieflyattempted Attended a lodge in
Rochester.
You already spoke about that.
In 1825, morgan received theRoyal Arch Degree at Leroy
Western Star, chapter number 33,having declared under oath that
he had previously received thesixth degree that preceded it.
It has never been establishedthat he actually received these

(42:56):
degrees and, if so, from whichlodge.
Morgan then attempted,unsuccessfully, to help
establish or visit lodges andchapters in, but in Batava.
Batavia in Batavia Sorry, inBatavia, but he was denied
participation by members whodisapproved of his character and
even questioned his claims toMasonic membership.

(43:17):
Morgan finally announced thathe was going to publish an
expose titled illustrations ofMasonry, critical of Freemasonry
and and revealing their secretdegree ceremonies in detail.
Morgan declared that a localnewspaper publisher you already
said this, david Chad Miller hadgiven him a sizable advance for

(43:38):
the work.
Miller is said to have receivedthe entered apprentice degree,
the first degree of Freemasonry,but had been stopped from
advancement by the objections ofBatavia lodge members.
Morgan was promised one-fourthof the profits and the financial
backers of the venture.
Miller, john Davis, morgan'slandlord, and Russell Dyer

(43:59):
entered into a $500,000 Penalbond P penal bond With Morgan to
guarantee its its publication.
500,000, that must be theequivalent.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
This is 1820 something, right, yeah, but
that's a billion dollars.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
That's like a no that's a lot of money, they're
converting it into today's value.
That's got to be that's got tobe in today's money.
You think something thatrepresented a five, a half a
million dollar?
Yeah, because a half a milliondollars in that day and age
would have been 50 milliondollars.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
so there's half a million, that's a ton of money
back in those days, you know,when a loaf of bread was two
cents, you know, yeah that'sright.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
So there's motivation there big time.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
I mean, you got a big motivation on that kind of
money, Absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
So this was, and you've got involved four people
four people two of them beingMason's alleged one allegedly a
Mason, one clearly not a masterMason right.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
But both disgruntled with the fraternity, now totally
disgruntled.
So that's what we have.
We have.
We have Morgan of questionablecharacter and questionable
membership and and probably Idon't know, a man who it seems
like he's one of those guyswhere drama just seems to follow
the guy everywhere he goes andthis is why people question him.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
And that never happens in, in, in our, in our
world so, but People I've seenwith my own eyes get raised past
and I'm like wait right and areMason right.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
And and the man, his character, finally catches up
with him, and then he isquestioned, and maybe, I don't
know, maybe some sort ofcommittee is formed of three men
and Maybe they, you know, they,they, they look into his, his
question, and these men, beingcourageous, men of courage and
men of valor, come back withsome kind of censure do their

(45:53):
job.
They do their job, as as Mason'sare supposed to, and not take
the cowardly way out.
They actually do their work andcensure the man.
And this, this turns the manAgainst the craft, and this
begins his threats to publishthis book.
And now we move on from there.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
Apparently, he was not Shy about the fact that he
was writing this book.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Right, he was receiving this much money.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
He apparently bragged , boasted in bars and on the
streets, of his progress andwriting the book right.
So it wasn't a big secret, sohe got on Facebook.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, essentially, essentially got on Facebook and
started blowing it up, puttingdown other brothers.
Yeah and and, like I said, themen of the committee had the
courage to censure him, at leastcry, at least call him on it
and not just try to make it goaway.
I really appreciate men likethat.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
I really do.
I mean, as Mason's, that what.
That's what we're all called todo.
I agree yeah right.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
It's like with, you know, the manatee lodge.
We don't want to go over thatall over again, but Grand Lodge
came down and did some reallyhard work.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Yeah, and they very unpopular thing.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
It's a series but they removed a sitting
worshipful master from hisposition, which was a very, very
difficult thing to do, but itwas appropriate and it was the
right thing to do.
And those, those were men.
I respect those men becausethey have courage to do what is
right, even though they might be, they might be criticized for
it, and they, they didn't careabout that.

(47:24):
Right is right, you know, andwe're we're lacking in men like
that apparently these days.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
I mean, we can't expect to like really enjoy the
benefits of the fruits of thevalues of our fraternity if we
don't set a minimum expectationfor being a member of our
fraternity.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
If we don't stand for it, how could we expect anybody
else to?

Speaker 1 (47:49):
Accountability is where it starts.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
It starts there, it starts at the top.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
And so from what I understand and I don't know for
sure, I'm just hearsay, but Iheard it's only the second time
this day to Florida that'shappened.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
That's right.
That is correct.
You're right about that.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
That's how the sitting master was removed in
his term.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
This was no small deal for.
Grand Lodge to come togetherand make that decision.
That was no small deal at all.
That took a lot of courage.
A lot of courage, big tonnace,as we say, big tonnace, man yeah
.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Now, you and I have, I guess, pleasure of lived it,
and we know the person.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Right.
We know We've had personalexperiences with the man Right,
yep Saw his lodge.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
know the guys that were affected Like we really
know?

Speaker 2 (48:30):
the details First hand.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
Probably more than the Grand Lodge does.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Absolutely.
We probably know more details,yep.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
But it was enough for them to take action, and what
they did in doing that wasshowed the entire state.
We do have a bar.
It matters.
You do have expectations.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
Masonry matters.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
We are yeah, we are gonna hold you to be.
You know what you put in, whatyou publicly saying.
You're out now.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
That's right.
Privately, secretly sayingyou're out?
You secretly saying you're out,would you publicly?

Speaker 1 (49:00):
live out.
This is what's required for thefuture of our fraternity to
prosper.
We have to hold ourselvesaccountable.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Now, this is what they were trying to do in their
day.
They found someone who's a cowin an eavesdropper and they
tried to make sure he didn'tallow.
He wasn't allowed to continuethe nonsense and that, for lack
of a better word, pissed the guyoff.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
Totally.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
And he's like well, I'm getting something out of
this and besides, you're at abook and he gathers together a
friend who was also a reject,from the same lodge, essentially
and they get a couple of money,guys, and now they're like, ooh
, we hit the jackpot, we'regonna do this.
And this is at a time when,politically, freemasonry was
really in the mind of people atthe time.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Well, if you think about the timeframe, this is
leading up to the Civil War, andthen, right through the Civil
War, I think there were other.
This thing became resolved in1869, I think.
I think is where we're headedthat way.
But anyways, from 1827 throughthe Civil War.

(50:04):
So, politically speaking,politics was absolutely on fire
and national politics.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
The country was dividing right down the center.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
commerce, the abolition movement in Europe
which made it illegal for anyentity of the Crown to trade in
slave products that had anythingto do with slavery.
So the entire cotton industryand the entire tobacco industry

(50:37):
from the Crown was turning backto India and away from the
United States.
So the money was slowly beingdrawn out of the plantations and
the slave owners were startingto feel the pinch as we got
closer and closer to the CivilWar.
It was a time of great unrestpolitically so, and this is

(50:58):
happening literally right duringthat time.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
Yeah, and you can imagine like today we know about
the biases and the fears peoplehave of our fraternity.
But, imagine then when weliterally were involved in
politics.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Mason's were Absolutely were.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
They were definitely involved, so you know Especially
local politics.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
Yes, yeah, I mean the sheriff, the mayor, the council
the judges.
Everybody was a member of thelodge.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
Yeah, this was the only Facebook group going at the
time.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
Apparently so If you wanted to be part of something
you needed to be a Mason.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
It connected you to a lot of people and we treat each
other as equals.
So there's definitely an appeal, I think, to many affluent
people to be part of afraternity at that time who
could have some upward mobilitysocially, because they're
getting to rub shoulders withjudges and regular people,
plumbers, advertising guysprobably they were all there too

(51:54):
.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
And I think the benefit, and back then and even
today is that the people thatyou rub shoulders with have been
verified to be reliable people.
And that's the point, and thatgoes back to what we were just
talking about.
If we don't take it seriously,if we don't censure those who
behave badly while they're inoffice, and if we don't take it
seriously, then we lose that.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
We got whole lodges of Morgans.
We got whole lodges of Morgans.
Minos, minos, mason's a nameonly.
Oh, minos Mason's a name only,but not live in the life, but
not live in the life.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
It's true, it's true.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
And my wife has heard me complain.
Over the years I've had mypersonal experiences and I
brought them home.
Yes, not a great idea, not likeI'm going home to complain, but
I've come home in some foulmoods.
My wife notices they do that.
I don't even tell all thedetails to her, but she knows.
Oh, this is a bad day inMasonry.
A bad day.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
And I had a lot of those A lot.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
I'm just being honest .
I'm glad you are Back in theday.
It was a lot worse, ok, but youstill have some bad days and
she's like you know what.
Don't feel bad because I wasinvolved in the church, it's the
same.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Well, wherever you have humans, there's humans.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
You know you're going to be disappointed because most
of the people aren't living upto the ideals.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
That's a really brilliant insight, because
that's what happens.
Any organization successfulorganization that forgets its
charter, that forgets the reasonwhy it existed in the first
place, always becomes uselessand it fails.
And I would say the same thing.
I've been in, you guys know,I've been in church work in

(53:31):
church government for well over30 years and I can tell you that
a lot of the churches out therehave forgotten their original
mission and I'm not going to gointo what I believe that is, but
they've forgotten it andthey've become nothing more than
poorly run social clubs withpoorly produced music.

(53:52):
Believe me, it's not good outthere musically.
And they've forgotten.
You know this is anorganization that changed the
calendar, that turned the Romanworld upside down.
You know that's separated.
You know that stopped slaveryall over the world.
And now I mean and now I don'teven know what to say about it

(54:13):
but the same thing with masonry.
You know, if we don't take itseriously, if we don't, you know
, do the work, do the hardthings, then we're going to end
up the same way.
You know, look at the BoyScouts of America.
They forgot who they were.
Just saw a documentary on that,yeah, they forgot who they were
and now they're in disarray.
You know if there even is sucha thing as the Boy Scouts of
America anymore.

(54:34):
They forgot who they were andthey did not follow the precepts
that made them great.
Yeah, is anybody listening tothis?
Is this thing on?
I hope so.
I hope it is.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
I hope our leaders are listening.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
I hope that's where it really has to start the
leadership has to hold peopleaccountable to be mason.
That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
The fear that you have has to be trumped by your
love for the fraternity.
I agree.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
I agree, it is scary, it's scary, it's scary.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
You don't want to be unlike by anybody.
Trust me, I get it.
I get that.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
But I demand to be held accountable.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
Me too.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
I don't want to be a hypocrite.
I do not want to behypocritical in any of the
things I do in life.
So I am very careful with theway I behave and the things that
I do within the fraternity,because it's just my nature.
You know that's.
I don't need another socialclub.

(55:28):
I don't.
I really don't.
I want benefit from this.
If there's no benefit to mylife from this, I don't really
need it and I don't have timefor it.
You know what I'm saying I want.
This craft has revolutionizedsome portions of my life.
My life is a lot better today.
Yes, my wife, because of thisfraternity and this

(55:50):
non-religious, non-politicalfraternity of good men trying to
help each other to becomebetter men by seeking light, by
seeking truth, by communityoutreach Though we're not a
community outreach, we're afraternity but by giving
ourselves to others in brotherlylove and affection, I get

(56:10):
something out of it.
If I'm not going to getanything out of it if it's just
another social club where we goto the shrine every once in a
while and have drinks and stuff,which I don't mind doing, I
actually enjoy doing that.
But I don't need that.
I don't need all the headaches.
So I'm sorry about that rabbittrail guys.
I just felt like I needed topound the heck out of that one.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
All right disappearance.
You know, I'll tell you becauseI'm at the end of the line.
I have literally two moremeetings to hold in one degree
I'm going to be part of it, theend of a seven-year journey.
A run.
It's been a run and I've beenactive, so I felt all the bumps.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Nearly a decade, so you're going to be eight years
in this.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
No, not that long, probably six years, six years.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Wow, that's a lot of time invested, man.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
But when you're in a leadership position, you're
ultimately showing everyone elsethe way You're supposed to give
light to them.
So one of the things I madesure to do is, like you said,
I'm well aware of my flaws.
Well aware, I hold myselfaccountable, and so I've made at
least two major mistakes that Ican come to mind now as the

(57:18):
master of my lodge, and in bothinstances I very publicly
humbled myself in front of mylodge and try to make my
mistakes a learning experiencefor the other guys coming up.
So, they can see one how tobehave when you do make a
mistake, because the right thingto do is to earnestly look at
yourself and earnestly apologizeand then try to make something

(57:41):
positive come from it, Likethat's really the best we can do
.
And if you're going to be aleader, you have to show people
you're human, you make mistakes.
The difference is you're goingto hold yourself to account as a
mason, Like you said.
I want to be held accountable.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
If no one's going to hold me accountable, I don't
need it.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
I can hold myself accountable and I can hold
myself accountable.
But honestly, I just go back towhat I said.
If nobody's going to hold meaccountable for the things that
I do and say as a mason, then Idon't need it.
I really don't need it.
It's of no benefit to me.
Masonry has a benefit.
This isn't the moose lodge man.
This isn't the eagle.

(58:20):
It's nothing against those guys.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
We stopped at the Eagle Lodge on the way you can
be both.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
You can be both.
It's a fun place, they do a lotof good stuff, but that's not
what this is.
This is a fraternity thatproposes to change your life
direction and attitude towardsthe things you do.
And if you're in masonry forany length of time and there's
no change in the way you behaveand the things you do, then why

(58:46):
bother, brother?
Why bother?
I mean, you could go to so manyother organizations that are so
much easier to get involved in.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
I mean, it's just so much easier for goodness sakes,
I just don't understand it.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
And I know brothers who have been at it.
They've been in the fraternityfor years and years and years
and I look at their lives andI'm like dude, I'm not really
sure you're understanding what'sgoing on here, man, but
whatever.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
And you can get frustrated with leadership and
say they're not doing the thingsthey should be doing.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
All you have control over is yourself at the end of
the day, so true.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
So why don't you just focus on yourself?
That's what I've tried to do.
I've tried to show people theway that I think is right to be
a mason, and that's.
Don't think you're not going tomake mistakes, but I brace them
as learning experiences.
Now we're talking a lot aboutourselves.
I apologize, that's OK.
So we have.
Now we're talking about factshere and you might think, oh,

(59:45):
they're masons, they're going tobe on the side of masonry in
this Morgan Affair.
No, we just want to give youthe facts that we know and our
experience is mason so that youcan make an educated decision
yourself about whether youbelieve the rumors around the
Morgan Affair.
So what we know we have is amason who claims to have been
made a mason in Canada Correct,we cannot produce any documents

(01:00:06):
to back that up.
His lodge in New York didn'tbelieve it and basically outcast
him, so he finds anotherdisgruntled mason from the same
lodge and gets a major contractto write a book about the
secrets of a free masonry withtwo other people Now the
brethren.
At the time this guy's goingaround bragging, having drinks,

(01:00:28):
he's making himself a spectacleand masons are everywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
They hear all of this .

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
And the brethren are getting really freaking worried
Like whoa.
This guy's literally going totell all of our secrets and it's
going to destroy our fraternity.
In their mind, that's what theythought.
If people find out the secretswe're done Because we're no
longer going to have the appealof the secret society.
In reality, they know, as we do, our secrets are never going to

(01:00:54):
hurt us if they came to light.
Never going to hurt us in anyway, shape or form.
In fact, they'd be veryanticlimactic for the public.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
They absolutely would .

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
Which is why it's got to be spectacle, because it's
not interesting unless it'sspectacle.
So they know that he's probablygoing to say some things that
aren't true, but people won'tknow the difference because he's
like I'm a mason, guys, I'veseen the secrets.
So, yeah, there's a real fearabout what this guy is about to
do.
It's a big deal and it's known.
So he is actually arrested forthe theft of a shirt and tie.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
Right yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
That's OK.
That seems suspicious.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Well, and the one who arrested him, apparently was a
sheriff, was a mason, oh yeah,oh yeah, he was actually
acquitted of that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
Apparently, he didn't commit the crime that he was
accused of and held them, butimmediately after he was
released, he was arrested forfailure to pay a debt of $2.68.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Right, which is the equivalent of like $50, $60.
Ok.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
He didn't pay a debt, he's arrested a second time.
Ok, this looks a lot to me likethe guys being hassled by
masons that are in positions ofpower.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Big time.
That's obviously what'shappening.
They want him to leave.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yeah, that's what I'm seeing.
One day after he was heldbehind bars, someone paid his
debt.
When he was released, he leftin a coach with several men,
apparently not of his own freewill.
People saw this.
There were witnesses.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
It looked like they kind of took this guy from
prison, stuffed him in a car anddrove off with him.
Right, he was taken to FortNiagara this is documented, we
can verify it and he wasconfined there and that was the
last time he was seen CorrectEver in public.
So what happened?
This is where the mysterystarts, right, right, what

(01:02:48):
really happened to him?

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
Well, wikipedia's got a little bit of blurb on this
too.
The generally accepted versionof events is that Morgan was
taken into a boat in the middleof the Niagara River and thrown
overboard where he presumablydrowned since he was never seen
again in the community.
In 1848, henry L Valanceallegedly confessed on his death

(01:03:13):
bed to taking part in Morgan'smurder, a purported event
recounted in chapter two ofReverend C G Finney's
anti-Masonic book the Character,claims and Practices of
Workings of Freemason, 1869.
In October 1827, a badlydecomposed body washed up on the

(01:03:35):
shore of Lake Ontario.
Yes, many presumed it to beMorgan and the body was buried
as his.
However, the wife of a missingCanadian named Timothy Monroe or
Munro positively identified theclothing on the body as that
which had been worn by herhusband at the time of his

(01:03:56):
disappearance.
One group of Freemasons deniedthat Morgan was killed, alleging
that they had paid him $500 toleave the country.
Morgan was reportedly seenlater, including in other
countries, but none of thereports were confirmed.
Eventually, ellie Bruce, thesheriff of Niagara County and a
Mason, was removed from officeand tried for his involvement in

(01:04:18):
the Morgan's disappearance.
He served 28 months in prisonafter being convicted of
conspiracy for his role inkidnapping Morgan and holding
him against his will before hisdisappearance.
Three other Mason's LawtonLawson, lawton Lawson, nicholas
Chesbro and Edward Sawyer wereconvicted of taking part in the
kidnapping and served sentences.

(01:04:40):
Other Batavia Mason's weretried and acquitted.
Author Jasper Riley suggestedthat Morgan was probably killed
by local Mason's, as all otherscenarios are highly improbable.
Historian H Paul Jeffers alsoconsiders this to be more
credible explanation Inreminiscence of a journalist.

(01:05:02):
It's a publication by a mannamed Cogdon cites a
third-handed account that Morganwas murdered by certain very
zealous free Mason's and notesthat the result anti, that the
the resolute anti-Masonsentiment caused by elections to

(01:05:24):
go from to go to non-Mason'sfor a number of years afterwards
.
I sorry, I screwed that one allup.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Yeah, no, that's definitely where it led.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
So so there were Mason's who were convicted for
their involvement in that, butnobody, nobody can say that that
they murdered him.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
So here's what we know as Mason's.
This is what we can verify.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
You're right.
People said that this guy waskidnapped and murdered at the
time he was missing.
So apparently it became moreand more important for Mason's
to find this guy and prove thatthey weren't actually behind,
killing him Free.

(01:06:16):
Mason's indignantly denied thecharges.
As time went on and he wasn'tfound, members of the craft
disavowed any approval of anysuch acts.
Governor Clinton, the pastgrandmaster, issued proclamation
after proclamation, the lastone offering $2,000 reward that,
if living, morgan might bereturned to his family and, if

(01:06:39):
murdered, that the perpetratorsmight be brought to punishment.
So that's a grandmaster who'slike.
At this point he's offeringcash.
Either show me a body orconfess.
Like we got to get this off ofour reputation.
He knew how important it wasand it wasn't very difficult to
discover that Mason's wereactually part of Morgan's

(01:07:00):
disappearance.
He went 125 miles to FortNiagara and actually wound up
being three members of the craft.
Cheeseboro, lawson and Sawyerpleaded guilty to conspiracy to
seize and secret him, togetherwith Eli Bruce, the sheriff, and
one, john Whitney.
They all served terms in prisonfor actually abducting him.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
They didn't confess to murdering him and it could
never be proved because theydidn't have a bondee right.
Right they had people who said,yeah, yeah, we did probably
kidnap this guy, maybe we werewrong, but they didn't admit to
killing him, but they servedtime in prison.
So as far as the Freemasons areconcerned, this is good, like
people got what they had comingand it should have been over.

(01:07:49):
But a body was found in 1827,about 40 miles below Fort
Niagara.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Morgan's widow identified the body, although it
was dressed in other clothesthan her husband had worn when
he was alive.
The body was bearded, althoughMorgan was clean shaven, and the
body had a full head of hair,although Morgan was bald.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Hmm, Could be a couple of giveaways there, I
don't know possibly.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
A man named Thurlow Weed.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Yeah, that's what it says here too and what I was
reading there is.
It's the same thing that thewife of a Canadian who was
missing positively identifiedthe clothing on that body as her
husband, so the fact that thatbeing Morgan's body is in
serious doubt.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Right.
So apparently this man, ThurlowWeed, was accused of having the
corpse shaved and of addinglong white hairs to his ears.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
That's not in the Wikipedia account, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
There were accusations that he literally
tried to make this body lookmore like Morgan.
Yeah, he cut off hair andallegedly added it to the hairs
of his ears and nostrils tosimulate the appearance of.
Morgan.
The first inquest decided thatthis was indeed the body of
William Morgan.
Three inquests were held andall the third decided, on the

(01:09:20):
unimpeachable evidence of MissSarah Monroe, who minutely
described the body its marks inthe close-hip war, that the
corpse was not William Morganbut Timothy Monroe of Clark,
canada, her husband.
Okay.
So a woman said this is myhusband.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
This is my husband, not that guy.
Not that guy.
She should know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
Yeah, so this is scandalous, electrifying, but
politically you got a lot towork with there.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
Right, so let's finish up with the aftermath the
anti-Masonic movement that thissparked.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
Okay, yeah, that's where we're going, because now
you got three men in prison fortaking the body.
You have a body that, althoughwas found not to be him
initially, was identified as him.
That's enough.
That's enough for people to runwith it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
Yeah, they all took the Facebook and Twitter and
just blew this thing up.
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
So keep in mind there were multiple inquests and the
last one, a jury found andreversed the identification
although that's not as exciting,is it?

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
Yeah right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
The fact is, the final inquest was that, yeah,
when we looked at all theevidence, it wasn't his body.
But no matter what the truth is, fuel was already on the fire
baby.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Right, yeah, it was burning.
It was burning.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
And so politically we're talking about a party,
people masons who didn't have anofficial political party,
correct, and they're not reallyabout trying to take over
politics.
But they're affluent people whoare members of the fraternity.
Correct right, and so there arejudges, there are sheriffs,
there are people, and I believeit's the same in England.

(01:11:02):
I believe a lot of people areafraid of Freemasonry because
it's so ingrained.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
In politics.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
And of course the higher income people, especially
apparently in Great Britain andyou guys listening across the
pond can correct us on this butmany of the affluent people I
don't know if that's trueanymore, but many of the
affluent people back in the daywere masons.
So masons had a presence in thearistocracy, you know, big time

(01:11:34):
.
So this is why people fearFreemasons, because they tend to
be people who of means, ofgreater means.
And if you practice, you know,if you practice make good
choices, work hard and arehonest, guess what happens?
You become successful.
It just happens to you, andmaybe that's the reason why

(01:11:57):
masons are generally moresuccessful is because they're
hardworking, honest people.
I don't know, just saying.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
Now I'm hearing that there were rumors that masons
were trying to purchase themanuscript from him for the sum
of $1,000.
Okay, which was probably a lotof money at that time, I imagine
.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Right, it says here it's the equivalent of $27,000.
Really yeah, that would be good,so let me read a little bit of
this.
Hopefully I'll read it betterthan I just read that other part
.
Soon after Morgan'sdisappearance, Miller published
Morgan's book, which became abest seller because of the
notoriety of the eventssurrounding his disappearance.

(01:12:36):
Miller did not say that Morganhad been murdered, but that he
had been carried away.
Account circulated of Morganhaving assumed a new identity
and settled in Albany, Canada,or the Cayman Islands, where he
was said to have been hanged asa pirate.
New York Governor DeWitt Clinton, also a mason, offered a $1,000

(01:12:58):
reward $27,000 in current valuefor information about Morgan's
whereabouts, but it was neverclaimed.
The circumstances of Morgan'sdisappearance and the minimal
punishment received by hiskidnappers caused public outrage
and he became a symbol of therights of free speech and free
press.

(01:13:18):
Protesters against free masonrytook place in New York and in
the neighboring states.
Masonic officials disavowed theactions of the kidnappers, but
all masons were under a cloud ofsuspicion.
Thurlow Weed, a New Yorkpolitician, gathered
discontented opponents ofPresident Andrew Jackson, a

(01:13:41):
mason, into an anti-masonicparty, which gained the support
of such notable politicians asWilliam H Seward and Millard
Fillmore.
Wow, no kidding In the 1829campaign, other Jackson rivals,
including John Quincy Adams,joined in denouncing masons, and

(01:14:03):
in 1832, the anti-masonic partyfiled William Wirt as its
presidential candidate and AmosElkmaker as his running mate,
and they received Vermont'sseven electoral votes.
By 1835, the party had becomemorbid everywhere but
Pennsylvania I don't know whatmorbid, I guess dead everywhere

(01:14:27):
but Pennsylvania, as otherissues such as slavery this is
what I was talking about becamefocused of a national attention.
In 1947, adams published awidely distributed book titled
Letters on the MasonicInstitution that Criticized the
Mason's Secret Society.
So it became a politicalfootball.

(01:14:48):
They were looking for politicalfootballs in that day,
something to revive the.
The politicians were figuringout just how lucrative this
federal government thing wasbecoming.
Yeah oh yeah, and that's why allof the rivalries and all the
different parties were poppingup here and there.

(01:15:09):
They finally settled eventually.
They settled on a railroadlawyer who started a new party
called the Republican Party.
His name was Abraham Lincoln,who was a railroad lawyer.
He was a lawyer for therailroads and he proposed a new
party, and the issue that theysettled on rightfully so was

(01:15:29):
slavery, and that changedeverything.
And, of course, in my opinion,we don't know the truth about
why.
You know why all of that stuffhappened.
That's a discussion for anotherday, certainly not for this
podcast but it changedeverything.
It changed our countrypermanently to this day.

(01:15:52):
We lost the really thefederalist constitutional
republic that our foundingfathers put together by the end
of, by the time they shotPresident Lincoln, and
reunification was not part ofthe plan any longer.

(01:16:13):
We lost our true constitution.
And here we are today, fastforward, to Kennedy being
assassinated by his ownadministration, which we now
know is true, and this is theresult.
And here we are today with thishybrid.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
I didn't know.
He was assassinated by his ownadministration.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
Yeah, well, it's pretty good evidence that there
were operatives in the CIA.
There's a guy named oh yeah,I'm not gonna remember his name,
but there's a Brit.
He was a member of parliamentand he's done extensive studies.
He loved Kennedy and GeorgeGalloway and George Galloway did
a pretty good.
He's very controversial.

(01:16:58):
So if you go and look up GeorgeGalloway, he's very, very
controversial.
He has a podcast called Moats.
Moats stands for the mother ofall talk shows and he's very
flamboyant, a wonderful speaker.
He was a member of parliamentand he's done a lot of study on
the death of President Kennedybecause he just loved Camelot.

(01:17:20):
That was when he grew up.
It was a big deal for them andthey saw the future of Kennedy
was dismantling that industrial,the war-making industrial
complex.
He was against the warfarewelfare state and it is pretty
good evidence that has beenreleased and more and more is

(01:17:40):
being released that he wasdefinitely assassinated by
people within his ownadministration.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
It's funny you bring that up because I was just
reading an article yesterday,just yesterday.

Speaker 2 (01:17:53):
Literally.

Speaker 1 (01:17:54):
That you know who Rob Reiner is.
Oh, rob Reiner meathead.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
The director right yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:59):
Rob Reiner and a journalist named Soledad O'Brien
.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
Sounds familiar.
She was a commentator on MSNBCI believe so.

Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
They claim just this month that they have done
research into the assassinationof President John F Kennedy and
they claim to have foundevidence of who was really
behind the killing.
So they have like a multi-partpodcast coming out and they
claim there's four names thatthey can give you that can prove
where the people that killedJFK and I think that's where

(01:18:28):
Galloway is also instrumental inthis entire thing as well and
those documents were released.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
Those documents were sealed after Kennedy's
assassination.
They've been slowly beingreleased, so what isn't redacted
.

Speaker 1 (01:18:44):
60 years now we're talking yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
And it's very clear that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
well, anyway, they have a, so they're gonna host a
podcast called who Killed JFK.
It's a 10-part podcast seriesfeaturing interviews with
authors, witnesses, ciaofficials and forensic experts
as part of their investigationinto the 60 year event.
It also includes interviewswith the former Secret Service
agent who really this year cameforward with groundbreaking new
evidence, according to I HeartMedia, which is distributing the
series.

(01:19:09):
Wow, it's kind of funny.
We're just talking about that,yeah well, and I have been.

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
You guys know who's listening to this podcast, know
I don't take anybody's word foranything on national anything.
I do the research and I love toresearch deep and I made the
mistake of researching theactual, true history of our
country over the last 200 yearswell, 100 years.
And if you do that and if youreally dig deep, you'll find out

(01:19:35):
that everything that we've beentaught, almost everything that
we've been taught about our past, is a lie, especially if you
look into the history of theFederal Reserve and I know you
guys are thinking I'm aconspiracy nut, I probably am
but if you look into a lot ofthe reasons why it was created
and the things that it does andhow it does it and the people

(01:19:59):
who created it and who wereinvolved in it, you realize that
you know the American dream ofyou know work hard, get into
debt, buy a house, have kids.
It's all been basically a Ponzischeme for a whole lot of very,
very wealthy global leaders,for sure at the last 50 years,
but I would say the last 100years.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
And anyways, Merry Christmas on that one and happy
New Year.

Speaker 2 (01:20:24):
Sorry about that.
I don't know how I rabbit trailyou down that one, but I will.
I digress.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
The lizard people control everything.

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
But I think it's the Illuminati.
I'm not sure, though, but I hadto throw that in there.
All right, so are we done withthe Morgus, the Fair Go finish
up Is the Mason's story.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
So you heard the public story Right.
There was a whole version thatMasonry has as to what happened
to this man.

Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
All right, finish up.
Finish up with that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):
Whit.
Okay, he allegedly he wasactually summoned to his lodge.
Now the master had been grantedsome of money from the sheriff
of his lodge and he was able togive us some of up to $1,000 to
make this go away.
So a bribe was allegedlyoffered to this man.
We will give you cash, we willgive you safe passage out of the

(01:21:11):
country, we will care for yourwife and family and they'll join
you in Canada If you go awayand stop this nonsense.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
This is being told to Morgan.

Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
Yes, he was summoned to lodge, offered a deal,
accepted the deal.
His arrest and his release wereplanned in advance between him
and the Masons.
Oh, allegedly Interesting.
He was assured of any amountneeded up to $1,000 by the
sheriff.
He actually offered $500, andhe accepted $500 if he would go

(01:21:42):
to Canada and disappear and theMasons would take care of his
family and provide for him latersend them to him.
He agreed.
Allegedly, he was arrested andkidnapped, which made it easy to
get him away from Miller andhis associates, the people that
he was indebted to, money he hadright.

Speaker 2 (01:21:59):
Oh right.

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
Right Now he.
It was a lot of money and thesepeople needed a product and he
was like, okay, my life is gonnabe miserable here if I release
this.
I'll be hated by everyone thatis important In town who are
Masons.
I'm gonna be ridiculed.
So he agrees allegedly to takethe money and go away.
So his escape and travel wasdocumented because it wasn't a

(01:22:22):
secret.
This was like part of the deal.
He actually signed an agreementand no kidding.
Yes, now there were otherconfessions of complicity in the
murder of Morgan.
None of them were consistentwith the facts and doubtless
they were of the same hystericalorigins of all the other crap

(01:22:45):
at the time.
So we're in a situation wherethe Masons have a story where
they actually passed him twoCanadians at Niagara in the
river, and now they're claimingthat once he was there after a
while he was like maybe I don'treally need my family, I got all
this cash and I'm kindaenjoying this life, and so they

(01:23:08):
feel that his whatever happenedto him had nothing to do with
them after that.
And there was an agreement thatgot him out of the country.
They resolved the amicably andif he died they had nothing to
do with it.
So you said he was hung as apirate or something.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
And they're saying, okay, one of the stories, right.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
That's like, because he was the crazy, he just got
off on his own adventures withall the money and without his
family and he got into some shitand actually, you know, got
himself killed and did himself.
So you have a story from theMasons which can't be publicly
verified and you have a storythat's publicly accepted in
history now, and because itlaunched a political party, is
ingrained in part of our historyas a country.

(01:23:48):
Right right, the anti-Masonicparty was a deal.
It was, it was a real partyReally worried about Masons and
politics, right.
But was it that or was it anopportunity?
To create an opposition party.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
That's exactly what it was.

Speaker 1 (01:24:02):
You know, I can kind of see as a Mason, how that's
probably the case.

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
Like I said at that point, in the mid 1800s, prior
to 1860, you know, prior to theCivil War these politicians were
realizing just how lucrativethis federal government thing
was.
Remember, the federalgovernment was not supposed to
be a thing.
You know they were ready to goto war over a 3% tax.

(01:24:27):
You know, the federalgovernment was supposed to be
sustained solely on tariffs.
It was never supposed to haveits own income, its own city
government.
The Supreme Court was never tohave its own building.
It was supposed to be a circuitcourt that went from place to
place.
It was never supposed to bewhat it is.
So these people were realizingjust how lucrative this thing

(01:24:51):
was about to become.
They were looking at theWestern territories Lincoln was
so focused on those Westernterritories, the land and they
were realizing just how far itwent to the Pacific Ocean.
And they knew the riches.
And that's what was happeninghere is the grift.
The grift was being set up andthe grifters were positioning

(01:25:11):
themselves.
So, yes, opposition parties andgotcha campaigns, and still
goes on today.

Speaker 1 (01:25:16):
Oh, it's the Floyd thing.
Death of Floyd Right.
Oh yeah, same thing.
They're all across the world.
People use that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):
Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:24):
It still happens, so you can see how that may have
been a real thing.

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
Totally see that, totally get that, because we see
it today.

Speaker 1 (01:25:30):
So people haven't seen that much, but you also
can't say for sure thatsomething nefarious didn't
happen to the guy.
Mason's admitted to someinvolvement in it.
So we're left with what we'reoften left with in history.
Is we got to make a decisionfor ourselves what's real?
As a Mason, I find itincredibly hard to believe that

(01:25:51):
a murder took place.
No Mason who's trying to defendthe Masonry would go and
violate their own obligations.

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):
Why would they?
Why would they?

Speaker 1 (01:26:01):
I really don't see that being the case, but I can't
deny that it might havehappened.

Speaker 2 (01:26:05):
I don't think the sheriff and these men were.
They weren't financiallyinvested.
So what's the motive for murderhere?
That he's going to let somesecrets out.

Speaker 1 (01:26:15):
Well, yeah, that's happened, which happened
repeatedly.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
Yeah, no, I don't see them.
There's no motive.

Speaker 1 (01:26:23):
So this is the worst they have on pre-Masonry.
Look at the big picture.
This anti-Masonic party lastedall 20 years, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
No, no, it lasted six years.
I think it was the whole thingfrom start to finish, where
people even remembered ithappened was like 20 years.

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
Right and the flash in the sum of history.
That's like wow, that was likenothing.

Speaker 2 (01:26:42):
It was nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:26:44):
But now, all these years later, people still say
Masonry's bad because a man wasmurdered.

Speaker 2 (01:26:50):
Right, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:51):
So this is the worst we have on Masonry legitimately
in documentation that a man mayhave been murdered by Masons who
pretended to be a Mason.
Now, if you look at any othergroup in history literally any
group, no matter how noble,you're gonna find a lot more
dirt than that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:09):
Oh yeah, I mean think of the Catholic Church, which
is incredibly important to somany people all around the world
.

Speaker 1 (01:27:15):
The fact show a lot worse has happened there, but
you still identify as Catholic alot of people right Yep, you're
like hey, that was that person,not me.

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):
I don't molest kids or whatever.
The Right right yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:26):
Because I believe in the values of my religion.
So you have I don't know howmany hundreds of thousands of
cases in the Catholic Churchthat are bad Really have, all
these cults that have popped upand hurt people.
You know, even major religionstoday are hurting people and
always have and always will inthe name of their religion
Governments religions, reallyany organization.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
You're gonna find Any organization.
Look at the Boy Scouts.
The Boy Scouts hurt a lot ofpeople.

Speaker 1 (01:27:54):
And all of Freemasonry's extremely long
history.
You have one allegation.
That's true, that's a prettystrong case for Freemasonry.
If you ask me, even if I wasn'ta Mason and I compared our
fraternity to all these othergroups, I'd be like whoa, this
is a pretty good track record.
I'd say.

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
I agree, yeah, I agree, I mean, and again, when
you talked about when I first,when I became a Mason several
years ago, it's gonna be threeyears here, pretty quick, I knew
nothing about the Morgan Affair.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
I never heard about it.
I never heard anything about it.
I don't think I had either.

Speaker 2 (01:28:34):
honestly, it's not like you know.
It never made the news, therewere no documentaries about it,
it wasn't, it wasn't.
It isn't marked on history, youknow, like what happened in the
Roman Catholic Church, whathappened in?
You know all the differentthings that have happened.
I mean, I think thatFreemasonry, the fraternity, is

(01:28:58):
unique in that, because of theway it's structured, that we
have a state grand lodge butreally Freemasonry is directed
by the individual blue lodge.
Each lodge directs its owndestiny based on the principles
of Freemasonry, which areenforced by grand lodge downward
.
So it kind of lends itself toautonomy, you know, and if you

(01:29:23):
look at each individual lodge asindividuals, yeah, some have
problems.
There's lodges that have, youknow, people have been arrested
for stealing money from them.
You know it happens.
People have been embezzledmoney out of there and been
arrested.
There's been, you know, there'sbeen all kinds of controversy
and stuff that goes on, but it'sself-governing.

(01:29:46):
It self-governs itself In thiscase, right here, if these, if
these masons said you know what,this is bad for everybody, we
don't want this guy, we don'twant this guy to get hurt, we
don't want this, we don't, wedon't want this anymore.
Let's we.
They devised a plan, dishonestlittle dishonest in their plan.
But they devised a plan to getrid of him, pay him some money,
get him and his family out ofthe state and they wanted to

(01:30:07):
move on from it.
Okay, that's fine, it's notnecessarily illegal.
You know what he did with hislife after just spoke of his own
character.
You know anybody who would comeup to any organization and lie
about who they are to get intoit is a man of you know, is a
man who lacks character to beginwith.
So we know Morgan was not a manof character.

Speaker 1 (01:30:28):
This is, yeah, this is the kind of the Mason side of
the story, Like this is a badstory.

Speaker 2 (01:30:32):
No, I get that Right.
Yeah, I totally get that.
He lied to us.

Speaker 1 (01:30:34):
He kind of now he's gonna lie on us.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Right, it's a bad situation, so it's, it's really.
It's an interesting story.
It is From beginning to end,because there's a lot of twists
and it doesn't really lenditself to a finale.

Speaker 1 (01:30:49):
No, I mean, I could see a movie that tells the story
both ways and I'd be riveted.

Speaker 2 (01:30:53):
Right, right, yeah right.
It's like a cool story.

Speaker 1 (01:30:55):
It really is.
It's never good to celebrate alife lost or potentially lost.
I get that, but you knowthere's a lot of intrigue here.

Speaker 2 (01:31:04):
There really is.

Speaker 1 (01:31:04):
Whether you're whether you're a public
anti-Mason or you're a Masonwho's really interested in
Masonry.
And I think the lesson is youknow, we shouldn't have acted in
any way that could have got uspublicly put in a position where
even the accusation was madeand people were documented
taking this guy, and so we wereinvolved.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
Clearly.
We were clearly involved insome way.
Mistakes were definitely made.

Speaker 1 (01:31:30):
Murder?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:31:33):
I just don't see the motive.
I don't know, I don't see themotive there.

Speaker 1 (01:31:36):
Opportunity yes, I guess the motive would have been
the fear of the public, butthey lies about Masonry.
They already lies about Masonry, but you made it worse, right?

Speaker 2 (01:31:45):
yeah, and the big motivator is always money,
financial gain or the revealingof some personal ill yes yes,
Right.
So somebody knows somethingthat you've done.
You know, and they threaten togo public with it, you know.
Then that person ends up dead.
Well, we know that's motive formurder right there, but what?

(01:32:06):
How is that?
How is this in any way?
He's going to publish a bookwhich could easily be refuted by
just simply saying no, that'snot true.

Speaker 1 (01:32:13):
And the thing is.
Here's the thing for me.
If you found that body andright, it was mortally wounded
in such a way that every Masonwould know it was Mason's.

Speaker 2 (01:32:24):
Right what I'm talking about.
Oh right, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:32:26):
Obligation and the penalties are clear If he was
killed in that way right muchmore on the side of okay, masons
did some bad stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:32:36):
And that's probably the way he would have been.
Think about it.
Yeah, no, that's right If youwere going to go all that way
you would do it according toMasonic law right, right,
exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:32:46):
You're committing freaking murder, which is, it
should, be repugnant to anyMason to even consider that
Right Exactly.
But if you were going to do itto protect your fraternity, you
go all the way.

Speaker 2 (01:32:57):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:32:58):
Probably so.
You're not going to suffocate aguy and drop him in a river.

Speaker 2 (01:33:01):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:33:02):
You're going to be like you're going to die a
Mason's death.
You're going to die a Mason'sdeath, and what I'm saying here
to people that aren't Masons iswe have very ancient obligations
that we take.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
These are part of the secrets that we keep alive.
Right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:33:16):
And our obligations have a penalty tie to them.
The penalties are symbolic.
Like everything else in Masonis all symbolic.
We don't actually build templeswith our bare hands, right?
It's all kind of symbolic forthings that we want to do in our
life.
The penalties are also symbolic, correct?
Nobody to my knowledge has everreceived a Masonic penalty.

Speaker 2 (01:33:37):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:33:38):
In actuality.
But if you were going to kill aguy in this manner, you would
expect the penalty to have beenexacted on the man.

Speaker 2 (01:33:44):
Right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:33:46):
So that to me kind of speaks to it's probably not a
Masonic situation.
Yeah, I agree, I agree, ifindeed, they found a body that
had been mutilated in some way.

Speaker 2 (01:33:55):
I'd be like okay, I think the widow's claiming of
the body not being Morgan beingof another man is pretty
convincing A woman in grievingfor her husband and sees the
body.
She's not going to lie aboutthat and she's not going to be
wrong about it either, and thisis a documented case.
So that body that they foundwas not Morgan in my opinion

(01:34:18):
According to the tribunal thatwas held.

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
According to them, it wasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
Therefore, the mystery of Morgan remains Right.
Nobody.
There is no body Right.
There never will be a body.
No one's going to know exactlywhat happened to Morgan, except
God Almighty Himself and we knowthat Masons were involved in
his disappearance.

Speaker 1 (01:34:38):
That's not involved.
There's no question about that.
So there's some bad stuff there.

Speaker 2 (01:34:41):
Yeah, some bad decisions were made.
But did a group of zealousMasons murder Morgan?
In my opinion, there no onecould ever say for sure, but the
evidence points against it inmy opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:34:57):
As a Mason.
Looking at the evidence we have, it seems improbable.

Speaker 2 (01:35:03):
Yeah, I agree.
Doesn't mean it's impossible,though, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:35:05):
as a Mason.
I know a lot of Masons who I'dbe like yeah sure I could see it
.

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of Masons, probably.
No, I'm not going to go, so you?

Speaker 1 (01:35:12):
know, even today we have guys like that in the
fraternity who may be acting insome, you know, un-Masonic way
and some misguided, likeperverse idea of what
Freemasonry is supposed to be.
It's possible that people cando bad things.
They do, they do all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:35:29):
Right, I get it the totality of things.

Speaker 1 (01:35:30):
It's important to bring up that, even if this is
true, you have one case in the1800s, right?
I'll hold that record up to anyother organization in history.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):
And I appreciate you saying that.
But honestly, we don't need to.
We don't need to justify ourexistence in the face of people
who don't want to know any truthabout the fraternity.
To begin with, most of thepeople I find who criticize or
have these opinions aboutMasonry, they simply they enjoy

(01:36:03):
it.
They enjoy the fact that theycan have these opinions.
You know, my daughter wastalking to somebody in her
church in Colorado and you knowthe lady just blurts out oh no,
that's Satanic.
Yeah.
And my daughter, who knows mevery well and knows my
background, you know, said tothis woman well, my dad wouldn't
be in it if it was Satanic.

(01:36:24):
He just he wouldn't.
I know my dad, my dad is aChristian, he's a strong
biblical teacher.

Speaker 1 (01:36:30):
He's duped, he doesn't have, he didn't get all
the information.

Speaker 2 (01:36:33):
He's being manipulated and the good news is
is that my daughter's like no,you're wrong, because I guess
Satan wants you to raise moneyfor charities.

Speaker 1 (01:36:39):
Satan must want you to help other people become
better people.

Speaker 2 (01:36:43):
Right, yeah, and it's just, it's just interesting
that person wants to believethat because it makes them
comfortable, it gives them somesort of cause select to, you
know, to say to people you knowshe's somebody in the Christian
realm, you know who goes aroundlifting up rocks, looking for
demons everywhere.
She's one of those kind ofpeople, and so this is an easy

(01:37:05):
mark.

Speaker 1 (01:37:06):
Yeah, you know, because you can't say for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:37:08):
But I always ask people, you know, I said well,
well, tell me, that's pretty,that's a pretty strong word.
I guess I've I've gotten myselfinto something I wasn't aware
of.
Tell me, what is it exactlythat you're saying is Satanic,
about Freemasonry?
And they'll you know well.
Well, this, that and the other,and I like to question them.
I say, well, let me ask you aquestion Are you talking about,

(01:37:30):
are you talking about operativeor speculative?
Masonry Immediately and thenbefore they can before they can
answer, I'll say are you talkingabout Appendant Bodies or Blue
Lodge, and and and then I'llstop them there and I'll say you
really don't know much aboutMasonry, do you?

Speaker 1 (01:37:45):
Of course not.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
Because if you can't answer me the basics you know of
, of it and and I like to askyou, you know well what are,
what are the tenants?
You know what is the main thingabout Masonry that any Mason
can tell you right off the topof their head, and that's going
to be brotherly affection.
You know brotherly affection,relief and truth man, yeah, you
know that's.
That's going to be the thingthat pops right out of their

(01:38:06):
mouth.
That's not Satanic lady, butanyway.
So this has been another awardwinning podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:38:14):
In my opinion, well, look, go back and listen,
because we are pretty open here.
We've done.
We've done shows on everydegree every lecture every
charge.
Everything we teach peoplewe've covered publicly on the
air.
That's right.
Go find the Satanic part.

Speaker 2 (01:38:29):
Go find the Satanic part.
We have it Right.

Speaker 1 (01:38:32):
And we've been active in it for years.
Yep, and you know, and look inhistory, we don't have a lot of
cases of Masons abusing innocentpeople, or even ourselves
really, other than this one casethat we're talking about now,
which isn't even 100% sure, butand the totality, you got to

(01:38:52):
look at the, the, you know, putit into perspective is all I'm
saying.
We don't have to defendourselves, but, like, let's put
this into perspective is all I'msaying even if it is true, even
if the worst happened.
look at the totality of theorganization and you can find a
lot to complain about as a Mason, but one of the things that
you're probably never going tocomplain about is that we're a
bunch of murderous thugs.

Speaker 2 (01:39:13):
Yeah, that's right.
We're a bunch of overweight olddudes Right or like hey, we
don't do this or we don't spendenough on that.

Speaker 1 (01:39:20):
Those are the arguments most people have.
Right, right, we're not doingthe things we should be doing,
maybe, but throughout all ofhistory, not going to find a lot
of cases of illegal activity?

Speaker 2 (01:39:31):
That's right, that's right.
Well, there's the music thatsignals the end of another
podcast.
This one will drop on time.
And then, keep in mind, guys,we'll be in Washington next week
doing interviews and podcasts.
So this week, brother, thisweek, this week, I don't know
where I'm at this week we'll bein Washington DC, we're going to
do a lot of interviews, we'regoing to catch up with a lot of

(01:39:53):
old friends and stuff.
So we'll be, we'll bepublishing those in the weeks to
come and we will be faithful indropping our weekly podcast on
education for the craft that welove.
And keep those cards andletters coming.
Cards and letters.
Keep those emails coming,brothers from all over the world
.
We enjoy them.
I missed a couple of emailsthat I meant to read on this one

(01:40:15):
.
Maybe on next one.
I've got a couple emails thatcame in that I want to read from
brothers that have been beenshouting out to us before we go.
Brother, brother, Chris,worshipful master.

Speaker 1 (01:40:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:40:25):
What do you?
What do you got?
What do you, what do you wantto tell us on the way out?

Speaker 1 (01:40:29):
Okay, I like to publicly say Fred is bribing me
to leave the state of Florida.

Speaker 2 (01:40:33):
It's offered me to some of five hundred dollars to
get out.

Speaker 1 (01:40:35):
If you, if my body's never found, see the
similarities here.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
Oh and on that note we will see you all later.

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