Unveiling Mysteries: A Deep Dive into Freemasonry, Fraternity & Faith: Fellowcraft Lecture Part 1

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, chris, yeah, fred, what's a Mason?

Speaker 2 (00:09):
That's a really good question, fred.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
You've reached the internet's home for all things
masonry.
Join Chris and I as we plumbthe depths of our ancient craft,
from the common gavel to thetrowel.
Nothing is off the table, sograb your tools and let's get to
work.
This is On the Level, heybrother, once again Woo.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
We are back.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Thank you, that was awesome.
As promised, this particularshow is going to be about the
fellow craft lecture and we'lldo a couple of them and then
maybe we'll do master mason one,a couple of them, then we'll go
back and finish up EA.
We didn't want to just blastyou guys with eight episodes of
the EA lecture.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
We just kind of want to mix it up.
Also, we're going to do like 12episodes, 12 episodes.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
A little tired after three.
Everybody was, like you know,writing us come on, guys, come
on, come on, let's move on.
So yeah, so we're going to jumpinto the fellow craft degree
Now.
For many of us, this is clearlyour favorite degree.
Yes, and if you are a mason,you know exactly what I'm
talking about.
Even the name of it, thewinding stair lecture it just

(01:24):
provokes such great imagery.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
It's a great representation of the system of
free masonry, because thatwinding stairs is very public.
Some lodges actually havewinding stairs and they have
symbols and they have letters onthe stairs that everyone can
see.
Right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Hillsborough.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
Hillsborough Lodge.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
They have those winding stairs and if you look,
they're fifth, they're thestairs.
They are the stairs.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
It's amazing, and the Warshall Master of Hillsborough
Lodge reached out to me andthey've asked me to do a lecture
there.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Next month on the day of the district picnic here in
district 23.
So I won't be at the districtpicnic.
Neither will I I have to dothis lecture at Hillsborough
Lodge, nice.
I cannot pass this opportunityup.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
Thank you, warshfull Ridge Really, really looking
forward to that, and that'sgetting opportunities to go
speak at different lodgesbecause of the podcast is just
such a privilege that we have.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
We are blessed to do this, we're going to get to see
a master mason degree inHillsborough Lodge and
potentially be a small part ofit.
Woo.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
I can't wait, I'm there.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
I'm right there beside you, bro, google
Hillsborough Lodge in Floridaand just look at that place,
guys.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
It's amazing.
It is amazing I any chance thatthat comes up to go there.
I'm going right, I'm there.
I mean because we just lovethat place and the Warshfull
Master shout out.
We just love the WarshfullMaster there and everything that
he's done.
Warshfull Ridge.
So anyways, I know he'slistening.
He listens to us regularly.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
He's everything he didn't know he needed about
Freemason ring.
What a great line.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
What a great line, right Everything I didn't know I
needed, I mean.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
I know that.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
That's exactly right, man so okay, well, good.
Shall we begin in the fellowcraft.
Now you're looking in the redbook.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
I do have the red book with me, yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
So you'll know exactly what Ken and Kent is and
isn't published.
I'm going to follow along inour blue book, which is the
monitor.
I'm going to monitor throughthe monitor.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
I have this open.
I'm not going to read out of it, I just want to see where it
ends so that I don't sayanything that I shouldn't.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, and I'm going to back you up on that.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
I definitely don't want to do that, the first 10
pages.
I'm always amazed how much ofthis is written out.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah, so you don't have to worry about anything
until you get to speculativemasonry.
Wow, okay.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
We have some things to talk about here.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
So the first is the senior deacon lecturer.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yes, typically the senior deacon gives the lectures
in the lodge Correct.
I don't know if all lodges dothis, but if the senior deacon
isn't giving the lecture, thelecturer wears the deacon's
jewels.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
He's giving the lecture and gives it back to the
deacon when he's done, so thathe symbolically the senior
deacon, as he does it.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
Right, right, okay, all right.
Well, worshipful burns begin.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
My brothers free.
Masonry being an allegoricalsystem, all of its parts, points
and secrets must partake of itssymbolic construction.
Every ceremony has its mysticalreference in every landmark,
it's legitimate explanation.
It is consistent in all of itsparts, which points to one in
the same object kept prominentlyin view in all of the degrees.

(04:51):
Now, I guess we won't say whatthat is, but masons, I think,
generally know what that'sreferring to.
Every landmark and everymystical ceremony constitute a
plain type of some great eventwhich appears to be intimately
connected with our best anddearest interests.
Conveying instruction by symbolshas been a means made use of

(05:14):
among all nations in all partsof the world, dating back in its
history to the first teachersof man.
All the wise men of the East,including Solomon, the great and
wise king of Israel, as well asthose from the humbler walks of
life, have veiled theirdiscourse in allegory and
illustrated by symbols.
I think that's this is animportant section, because

(05:38):
people that aren't masons thinkthat we're really shady and bad
because we use symbols and thatwe're hiding the true meaning of
things.
But, as we talked about, thefellowcraft lecture deals with
history and science and whatwe're saying here is that all
nations, from the beginning ofour recorded history, have used

(06:02):
symbols to convey ideas Frompre-Egyptian times, which was at
least 3,000 years ago.
Even before then, they wereusing symbols as a means of
communication.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Right, because most people couldn't read.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Everyone can look at something.
Everyone that's not blind canlook at it.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Right, yeah, so the landmarks Can we talk about the
landmarks of masonry correct, oris that the tenets?
Am I thinking of the threetenets or is it the three
landmarks?

Speaker 2 (06:41):
There are more landmarks.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Right, so the three tenets I'm thinking of, we'll
talk about that later.
Yeah, the principal tenets, Ithink it comes up.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
In the inner-deprentice lecture.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Correct, correct, my bad sorry.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
That's okay.
So the first degree in masonryis symbolic and moral.
The second embraces history andscience.
The allegory of free masonry isthe building of King Solomon's
temple at Jerusalem, and ourlegends date from that epoch.
The working tools there usedfurnish us with many of our
symbols, and many of ourceremonies were practiced by its

(07:14):
builders.
In order to facilitate the workof building and prevent
confusion in the payment ofwages, the craft were divided
into classes or, as we designatethem, degrees, and to each
class was assigned methods ofrecognition.
The second class, or fellowcrafts, received their wages in
corn, wine and oil in the middlechamber.
Hence we say a lodge of fellowcrafts represents the middle

(07:36):
chamber of King Solomon's temple, as does that of the entered
apprentice.
The ground floor.
We term advancement to thisdegree passing, and we say past
to the degree of fellow craft.
For when going from the groundfloor to the middle chamber of
King Solomon's temple, onenecessarily passed between two
beautiful brazen pillars.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
I gosh, it just starts off so good, doesn't it?
And this is so.
I think this is a great ideabecause, you know, we had an
esoteric discussion group justthe other day.
Shout out, that was a greatgroup.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
About 20 of us there.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, thank you, Kevin, for opening up your home.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
That was awesome and for everybody to come out and
share their time with us.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, and one of the, we did a little bit of
discussion about degree stuffand then we did a little current
event kind of discussion thatbroke out, and the current event
was, you know, was talkingabout all of this persecution,
if you will, of mason's andmasonry around the country.

(08:40):
This move towards unstablepeople, people of unstable
mental health, in my opinion,going after mason's because of
this massive amount ofmisinformation that's out there.
It always stems frommisinformation, People grabbing
misinformation and then taking,you know, taking action against

(09:01):
others because of theirignorance.
You know, and this right here,what we're doing today and doing
this work, and we did not planit this way.
But I think that this istelling the world.
We're showing you, hey, world,we're showing you there's
nothing nefarious, there'snothing.

(09:21):
We are not taking over theworld.
We don't own the government, wedon't own any of that stuff.
What we are is a group oflodges, fraternal lodges, around
the country, underneath a stateheadship of a fraternal order,

(09:42):
trying to make ourselves and ourcommunities better men.
And these lectures and whatwe're doing here is that's what
we're trying to convey to theworld.
You know, hey, Alex Jones,listen up, man.
We're not nefarious, we're notup to anything.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Shut up man, we don't want to hear from you anymore.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Okay, he's out there advertising for us.
You know he's advertising forus because hopefully people are
listening to this idiot.
Yes, I did say idiot, uh-oh.
And then they're thinking well,this is.
You know, that guy's a whackjob.
He's the one who said the thingabout frogs and all this weird
crap that he goes through overand over again and maybe they're
looking.
I need to know the truth.

(10:24):
Let me look into masonry.
And if you're that guy, ifyou're listening right now and
you need to look into masonry,just call your local lodge, go
down there and talk to thesepeople.
They're going to tell youeverything.
They're going to give you atour of a lodge.
There are no secret rooms.
There is no secret nefariousplot.
It's a fraternal order of menwho are trying to make
themselves better for thebenefit of the world.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
And the doozy is they're going to say it's a
religion or it's a satanic.
And you know, this came out atour esoteric discussion group
this weekend Somebody I think wehad an enterprise who is Was it
pagan?
He's a neo pagan.
Something, it's something Idon't think he.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
I don't think he says I am.
No, no, no he says that he's,he's, he's kind of he's studying
it, he's looking into it Okay,yeah, I think is what it is and,
and I think, his, his, he isthe Universalist Church.
He goes to the UniversalistChurch here in Sarasota.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
So we had that brother who said this is only
strengthening his Belief inwhatever that religion is to him
, whatever road he's going down.
We had a Jewish brother there,yep, who confirmed that being
part of masonry has strengthenedhis Relationship with the
temple and his religion.
And we had many Christians who,in yourself included- who said,

(11:48):
this is actually strengthenedmy belief in Christianity in my
place in it.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, it's.
It's funny that, you know, Isit in a group.
I sit in a group of men whorepresent If I'm sitting at the
bus station, though I don't knowthe people around me, it's the
same thing.
Only these men that I'm sittingin this group with I know.
I know their religiousbackgrounds, I know their
opinions.
But it's just a, it's amicrocosm of the world at large.

(12:14):
It's, it's, and, and thedifference, of course, is we, as
men, can discuss ourdifferences with gentleness and
respect For others and maybe,for goodness sakes, learn
something from each other.
Yeah, for the betterment of ourfraternity and going forward for
the benefit of our community.
You can ask my wife it's mademe a better husband.
Why?
Because it has pointed me backto the origins of my faith.

(12:38):
It has reminded me of somethingthat I forgot, and and it has
pushed me towards this, thisdirection back to Something in
my life that is is extremelymeaningful and helpful.
And the symbolism, the workthat we do, the degree work, the
fellowship, the love.
You're not gonna find thatanywhere else, bro.

(12:59):
If you're out there looking forsomething like that, get down
to your local lodge and ask themsome questions or email Fred.
Yeah, I'm a level with Fred andChris calm.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Please.
He'll tell you everything youneed to know.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yes, and I want to apologize.
I I I set up my male client sothat all my emails would
download to one source and forsome reason, fred at on the
level with Fred, and Chris Comdid not get on that male client.
So I was feeling reallyslighted, guys, you guys out
there.
I was feeling slighted.
It's like gosh, you guys arenot emailing me.
And then one day I opened thatthing up and I was like whoa,

(13:31):
okay, you guys are emailing me,I will get on those emails and I
will answer you back.
Some guys are also instantmessaging me.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Oh great.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Which is great, and I have got to get that on my
computer so that it notifies me,because I don't have the
notification set up for that.
So you guys that are shootingme stuff, instant message in me.
I will be responding back toyou.
I will get that going.
I've got a.
I've got a life changing, lifealtering thing that I have to do
this weekend.

(14:01):
And not discussing it weekendweekend if you want and and when
I get back, I've decided tomake a few changes in my life
because this, if anything, thiswould be a good marker for
turning Turning some things thatI'm not happy with in my life
to things that I am happy with.
So this Saturday I talked aboutit with just a few guys, but

(14:24):
I'll share a little bit with you.
On on July 16th this, this lastmonth, my eldest son, brian,
committed suicide and I'll spareyou the details of Of how it
happened and he suffered greatlyfor the last two decades.
He was a homeless addict on thestreets of Denver, colorado,

(14:49):
very much tied and Bound by the,the system, the so-called
justice system We'll talk aboutthat some other day.
And he was.
He was just held there captive,so he was either incarcerated,
where he was actually safe, butthen they would kick him back
out on the streets, load him upwith SSRIs and then kick him

(15:10):
back out on the streets, andthis went on for a decade.
He just struggled greatly inhis mind with mental illness by
that time and finally could nolonger Keep up the fight.
And there's just so much here.
And if you've gone throughanything like this in your life.
I'd love to hear from you andI'd love to Talk about you.

(15:32):
Know how can we bring a betterawareness, yeah, of what's going
on out there?
My, my youngest son?
I have four sons my youngest,second to youngest son
technically only because three,two of my sons are Steps sons
and two of my sons arebiological sons, but they're
still my sons, hmm, but myyoungest son, eric, and I forgot

(15:57):
where I was going with that.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
So anyway, it's a needless to say, you talk about
needless right.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
So my youngest son and I, we are looking for a way
to honor the memory of of Brihby bringing awareness to this
issue that's going on out there.
I learned a lot of stuff.
Did you know, you know, when I,when I my checkered?
Background is I've talked aboutit on the Podcast before, but
there was a time in the 80s,drugs were expensive and hard to

(16:27):
get and that was somewhat of abarrier not not first for many
of us, not an unsurmountablebarrier, unfortunately but it
was a barrier.
It slowed you down.
Today, one day's worth offentanyl costs you three dollars
and it's everywhere in Denver,colorado.
You can go anywhere and withthree to ten dollars, get an

(16:50):
entire day of fentanyl Is, andand our country is flooded with
this, this reality.
Every big city in this countryis flooded with this substance.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
It's everywhere fentanyl.
Which is what?
Well, I believe it's.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
We started out as oxycodone, which is a synthetic
form of heroin.
So same effect, same idea, butit's a synthetic, it's a
man-made type of heroin.
So fentanyl was originallycreated by the ghouls in the
pharmaceutical industry as whatthey termed it, an end-of-life
drug.
So only if you're terminallyill and dying do they give this

(17:32):
to you, because of it's sodangerous and so utterly potent
that you can only like a grainof sand.
Worth Is really all that ittakes.
So it it obviously like everyother drug that they ever
created.
It gets out into the streetsand it becomes, you know.
It floods over our border, it'sproduced out of country and

(17:54):
it's it's smuggled into thecountry and sold on our streets.
It is, it is the ultimate formof a heroin like substance
extremely powerful, extremelyUnstable and extremely hard to
administer correctly.
Therefore, that's why peopleare dropping dead all over the
place from overdosing from it.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
So all over the country I'm reading the effects
of taking this drug.
Yeah, and it's all Aboutescaping pain.
Yeah, it's a goal it probablywas the intention, but it looks
like symptoms such as euphoria.
Are people probably trying toescape emotional pain or taking
this drug?
Absolutely not feel it.

(18:35):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
You have to live with this Right and and I know that
my son also methamphetamine wasalso an issue for him as well,
which is a very, very bad drug,and I can tell you that.
I can tell you that personallyit is.
It is a.
In my opinion, if the devil wasselling drugs, that's the one

(18:59):
he would sell, because it is sonefarious it causes.
Heroin makes you pass out andthrow up on yourself, you know.
Methamphetamine makes you stealcars and hurt people, and so
it's a.
It's a totally different air,you know, it's a totally
different drug with a totallydifferent reaction set and and

(19:19):
so all of these issues, all ofthese things that that they, our
kids, are getting dragged intothem at a young age.
You know, my son took his lifeat 37.
He's been out on the streetsfor 20 years, man.
So do the math, bro.
He was a young man when westarted to lose him and we did
all we could.
I will tell you on the on thegood news part, his dad, me, is

(19:44):
an ordained minister and I had Ihave spoken to him Um many,
many times on the phone while hewas in jail, in person, over
and over again, about faith andlife and eternity, and I am very
much convinced.
I know where my son is today andI will see him again.
So that is, that is my hope,and that is the hope of faith.

(20:04):
Sure, you know, and the, theChristian faith, has that what
we call eternal hope Um, that wewill see those, those members
of our family again.
But anyway, um, I'm sharingthis with you guys Because of
the amount of love the msanacommunity has shown me.
Um is amazing.
I have brothers all literallyall over the world, who would

(20:26):
absolutely stand up with me andstand next to me and cry with me
and and uh and hug me.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
It's difficult because you can't stop or fix or
help really in any way Right,and so you don't know how to
help now.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
It's.
It's really strange.
I'm I'm finding that to be true.
People that I thought we'regoing to just like, like at my
work, for instance, these, theseat my work.
No one in my work is masonic,no one in my work is has any
kind of Faith to speak of.
They don't know how to dealwith this.
They have not said a word to me.
Either way you do avoid aboutit.

(21:02):
They they totally avoid theconversation in every single way
, and the reason why is becausethey don't know how to deal with
it Right and and I don't putanything on them.
I don't put anything on and Idon't blame them here.
He must be okay.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
So I don't want to bring it up or cause any more
pain, I'll just ignore it.
Yeah, and and it's just, theyhave no they have no Um
mechanism.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
They have no, no mechanism, no reference point
for something like this.
This is what you see on tv.
This doesn't actually happen topeople.
I know.
I I don't know how to deal withthis, but you know, as
Christians or or what's thepoint of this, christians or or
whatever faith you are, or as amason, we have, we have and we

(21:42):
we're able to look at this andwe're able to understand this,
not, not?
fully understand and no one'sgoing to fully understand Um a
37 year old young man hanginghimself behind a dumpster in
denver, colorado.
No one's going to trulyunderstand the dynamics that
happened there.
That's not possible.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
But A little bit of empathy goes a long way.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
A little bit of empathy goes a long way.
You can imagine the pain.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Oh it's-.
We've all had pain in our livesand we've all gone to dark
places.
You understand, yeah, wherethat could lead if you didn't
check it.
No, that's right Follow thatpath as far down as you could go
.
Yeah, yeah, it's gonna lead tothat place.
My wife lost the same age,early 30s.
Her cousin same thing Drugs hiswhole life escaping trying to

(22:29):
escape the pain, and all hisfamily did was make it worse.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Shame him, make him an outcast.
I know no one tried tounderstand what he was trying to
escape, what that pain wasRight, and he probably wasn't
even capable of communicating toanybody.
So it was this horrible thing.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
Right, right, the Christian community is and I'll
say it and it's true and I'llback it up is just terrible at
this.
If you suffer from mentalillness, that's a lack of faith,
right, and they put that on you.
Well, you just need to believemore, you need to trust more.
You know there are chemical.
There are.
It's just scientific that thereare chemical imbalances that

(23:07):
happen in the brain that causeus to shift reality.
If you add to that drug usepowerful, dangerous drug use-
like methamphetamine oroverstanding periods of time you
are just.
You're harming your brain insuch a way that reality begins
to slip from you and for thepast eight years, my son's

(23:28):
ability to reason.
He told me about voices that hewould hear and he could go into
great detail as to what thesevoices were saying, who they
were.
When they showed up, I mean, itwas real in his mind and in his
heart and eventually he couldno longer.
He just could no longer dealwith it, you know.
And his only way out he saw wereached out to him.

(23:49):
Our Christian community familywas not that way.
I would not have that.
We reached out to him.
He was not an outcast, ourfamily, we loved him.
He knew that we loved him.
He knew he could rely on us.
We never gave him money becausethat would be wrong.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Because this would have happened sooner if you did.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
It would have happened much sooner, correct so
?
But we?
But he always knew that hecould call any of us and we
would stay on the phone with himfor as long as we had to.
My daughter in Colorado Godbless her his older sister would
bring him food, would take careof him when he was just so
totally broken.
She devoted a lot of time and alot of love to that young man

(24:29):
and it has absolutely enrichedher life and crushed her big
time.
So I'm I need to get out thereand sit with her and talk with
her.
But if you've ever gone throughany of this, reach out to me.
Man, I would like to bringawareness somehow, and I'm not,
I'm not gonna go, you know, fullon crazy with it, but I would

(24:50):
like to know your story.
If you have one, I'd like to.
I'd like to see if there'ssomething we can do to just
bring more awareness to it's.
What I'm finding is this theytalk about it on TV all the time
.
You know that it's an epidemic,this, and they politicize it
and blah, blah, blah and theyruin it, they take away its

(25:10):
power because they politicizeeverything for gain in the media
.
But when it hits home, and whenyou, when you see it, feel it
and begin to look into it, yourealize this is really bad man.
It's really bad out there andit's getting to the point where
every single human being, likeyou just said, you've been

(25:32):
touched by it.
Your family's been touched byit.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
This is a.
This is a huge problem.
In 2021, almost a hundredthousand people died from
preventable overdose.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Which is an increase of 781% from 1991.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Wow, For a decade.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
These deaths represent 92% of the total
107,000 drug overdose deaths inthe US Annually.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, oh, my God Right, I would have to say those
numbers.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
It's a massive problem.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's a massive problem.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, and no one.
You know.
This is the problem with oursociety.
We're segmenting ourselves tothe point where, if it doesn't
affect us directly, we reallydon't care.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
We really don't care.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
We can talk about, we care, pretend to care, but no
one's doing anything about it inreality.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Right, and we're so busy with such hollow pursuits.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Until a president or a senator has a son, do this, no
one's gonna care.
This is how it is in this world.
If it doesn't impact medirectly, sure we feel bad, but
we're not really gonna payattention to it.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, that's right, man, that's right, and you know
it like that's called empathy.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Empathy, caring about something that doesn't directly
impact you and making it stopRight, yeah, and that's like
have a little empathy.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
You know you're yourself in the position of that
person.
You know compassion is theaction of empathy.
Right, empathy is therealization, putting yourself in
that position.
Compassion is the actualputting shoes to it and getting
out there and doing somethingshowing compassion.
So that's where I'm at.
Sorry to drop this heaviness oneverybody.

(27:10):
It is a major, obviously amajor issue that's going on in
my life and my family's liferight now and I will definitely
be talking more about it, but Iwill be talking more about doing
about it Once I understand yeah, once I understand it as best.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
I can.
You need help.
You need some people to helpyou with this.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
I hope people answer the call that have been through
this or are struggling with it.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
If you're struggling with it?
Yeah, you don't.
You should not try to strugglealone, even though if you get to
the point where my son was, youwill not come out of it without
help.
You can't get out of it withouthelp, you will get stuck in
there.
The government has set up thisjudicial system that pretends to

(27:55):
be helping.
My son was involved in whatthey call drug court, which is a
multi-million dollar governmentoperation in Denver, colorado,
that does nothing to help thesepeople.
I'm sorry, they just don't.
In my opinion, it is a giganticgovernment jobs program.
It's massive.

(28:16):
And my son I'll just give you aclue.
He had been in and out of theDenver and the Rapport County
jail system for a decade and ahalf.
The last time he got arrestedhe had already had three DUIs.
He was on what's known as afelony diversion program for
drug use and possession.

(28:37):
He led police on a chase in astolen car while intoxicated.
With his fourth, which would behis fourth DUI, you would think
that a man with that recordcommitting that crime would go
to prison where he probablywould have been able to receive

(28:59):
some help, going a couple ofyears or three or four years
maybe.
Even that would have beenprobably five years without any
kind of drug use whatsoever,probably would have cleared him
up.
But you know what they did?
They let him out.
30 days later they let him outon drug court diversion and sure
enough, he went from the drugcourt diversion house where he

(29:23):
was in lockdown for the 30 days,and he was supposed to go to a
halfway house in Denver,colorado, and he never made it.
He never made it back there.
He didn't make it.
One day she is 14 to 20 dayslater.
About 20 days later, he wasgone.
He was gone to find, he justcouldn't.
He just couldn't.

(29:44):
Now these are the people thatpretend to be in charge of the
compassion industry and I thinkthey're getting it wrong, man.
I think they're getting itreally, really wrong.
And if you wanna find a sourceof the problem, we could
probably start there.
But that's a leviathan thatwill not go easily and they're
not gonna give up their grip.
Here I go with my soap box.
I'll give up on it, but if youwant and I know there's people

(30:06):
out there shaking their heads,yes, right now, I know.
If you've been through this,you know exactly what I'm
talking about they putthemselves in a position of
guardian, of helper, and theyjust suck at it, man, they just
really suck at it.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
We're in a for-profit country.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Everything is for profit.
Your life is for profit.
Everything is politicized.
Yeah, your health is for profit.
Yeah, wow.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Your ability to think clearly is for profit of
somebody.
It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
All right.
So how on earth are we gonnatransition from that back to
operative masonry, which is partof the fellow craft lecture?

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Well, thank you first of all for sharing that.
I was contacted by peopleasking me what was going on with
you.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Right, I had some people too After that episode
people wanted your contact info.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
I didn't wanna tell people, since I don't know if
you wanna tell people, butpeople care.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah, they do.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
And in this fraternity people really care.
There is empathy, at least foreach other, which is a good
start, at least if we can keepit Right.
Like I always say, freemasonry's training wheels for
life.
So if you can have a littleempathy for someone in the
fraternity, that means you'velearned.
Hopefully you can learn to haveempathy for people that aren't
masons someday.

(31:21):
Yeah, that's right, that'sright.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah, it's good training wheels.
It's good.
I love that.
I love that analogy.
It really is.
It's good training wheels forlife and I appreciate that.
So anybody who does wanna reachout to me on this issue just
email me or instant message me.
I don't know how you were ableto figure that out, but I'm
getting them.
I'll set up the notifications sothat I can answer them.

(31:45):
But yeah, it's Fred atonthelevelwithFredandChriscom.
Just shoot me an email anytime.
I'll do my best to answer backand maybe we can bring some kind
of awareness, some kind ofconsensus and maybe actually do
something about it.
Masonry has answers for thishurting society.
We have answers.
We have something here thatyoung men could use to better

(32:10):
their lives, and I'd like to seethat in action.
So let's move on.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
Well, on a more personal note, All right, we're
not moving on.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
We're real quick.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
Last thing I've gotten to know you well, I would
say.
Yes, yes brother, I do.
We have.
We've had ups and downs.

Speaker 1 (32:26):
We have.
We've had fights, we've hadgood times, which makes sense.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
We're pretty close, yeah, and everything's led me to
understand you better, and I'veseen you dealing with this
extremely in a way in whichyou're extremely strong outside
to others, and so I really hopepeople do contact you, because I
think that really can help you.
I think it's probably hard.

(32:49):
I've witnessed it's difficultto talk to people that don't
know what you're going through,and we want to be there for you,
but it's not the same assomebody that understands.
Now, that's true, I reallybelieve that's true.
So I think if someone that'sbeen through something very
similar to you could talk to you, it would be helpful to you.
So I hope people do reach outto Fred.
I know him.

(33:10):
I think it'd be good for him.
You'd be doing a huge serviceto us, absolutely, and that
could lead to a good outcome foreverybody, because we are idea
guys.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
We are idea guys.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
Even if it's just on a small level, come up with a
way to try to make a smalldifference and maybe save
somebody else's life down theroad here.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
That's right, or at least prepare those in families
who are going through it.
There is a right way and awrong way to approach this, and
we started off doing it thewrong way and we learned to do
it the right way.
The outcome was still tragic,but we can look back as a family

(33:51):
and say that we left no stoneunturned.
We did all we could.
We can say that as a family andI think that's one of the
reasons why I feel I'm notbreaking down.
Now keep in mind, I amresponsible for doing the
service.
I am doing the message of hopeat his service on Saturday.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, the hardest times are still in front of you.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
The hardest times are in front of me and I know when
I get back from Denver on Mondaynight I got a feeling things
will be a little different forme.
But I have my brothers allaround the world.
I have my brothers all aroundthe world who have stood with me
and the thing is that brotherscome up to me all the time who

(34:34):
know about this situation, andthey put their arm around me and
they hug me and some of themdon't say anything.
I know what they're doing and Iknow what they're saying to me.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
It's better than words.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
It's better than words, and the reason why that
is is I know that literally allaround the world there are
brothers who have the sameattitude towards me.
They don't even know me, butthey are my Masonic brothers
from around the world.
It's crazy huh, it's we have.
Where are you gonna get that I?

Speaker 2 (35:03):
say it all the time, I can't explain it to people.
It's impossible to use words tomake somebody that's not in the
fraternity understand thisRight.
Right, you have to experienceit to truly understand it.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Where, other than a close like military unit?
I've talked to military guysthat say that they forge
friendships and they bond there.
But other than that, where areyou gonna find a group of men
worldwide who can cry with you,who can laugh with you, who can
do life with you, regardless ofwhat their background is, what

(35:34):
the color of their skin is, whatany factor does not matter?
Together, as masons, in thisfraternal order, we do life
together, man, and it's all overthe world, and for that I think
that's an answer that thiscountry needs.
I'm gonna pound that on thetable for the rest of my life.

(35:55):
We have something that theworld needs, that young men need
, and we need to get togetherand we need to be stronger.
We need to make masons.
Hey, worshipful masters outthere, make new masons.
It's your charter You'rerequired to make new masons.
Let's do it.
Let's do it together.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
You wanna, you want some help.
Go to masonappco forward slashG-L-M-R-P.
You're gonna have to repeatthat Masonappco forward slash
G-L-M-R-P.
You'll find answers.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
You'll find answers and if you need explanations, if
you need us to come to you andwe can, we will.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Wow, that went in an interesting direction.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
It certainly did Well , it was an interesting moment.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
Thank you for sharing .

Speaker 1 (36:45):
I appreciate it.
Let's not finish on that, eventhough we're deep into this, but
let's go to operative masonry,unless there's anything within
that first part that you wantedto kind of dig into.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
That's a pretty like plainly explaining what the
fellow craft degree is.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Right.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Why we call it passing.
Right, yeah, what the seconddegree represents yeah, but
actually free masonry as a wholeis classed in their two
denominations operative andspeculative.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
So let's hear about the operative.
Some of us are both but notmany, not many.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, by operative masonry we allude to the proper
application of the useful rulesof architecture, whence a
structure will derive figure,strength and beauty, and whence
will result a due proportion andadjust correspondence.
In all its parts, it furnacesus with dwellings and convenient
shelters from the vicissitudesand inclinancies of seasons.

(37:40):
And well, it displays theeffects of human wisdom as well
in the choice as in thearrangement of the sundry
materials of which an edifice iscomposed.
It demonstrates that a fond ofscience and industry is
implanted in man for the best,most salutary and beneficial
purposes.

(38:00):
Well, there's some big words inthere.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
There's some real big words in there, we're gonna
have to break that down a littlebit.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
And this is why people learn this lecture first,
it just feels good to say thesewords Right, yeah, right when
you're standing there and yousay it and people think you know
what you're talking about.
It's a lecture.
It's a good feeling, Makes youfeel smart.
But for me, I had to Googleabout half of that paragraph to
really understand what the heckthat's saying.

(38:28):
And it's really simple.
Operative masonry was thebuilding of beautiful things.
That's right.
Yeah, it was the actual physicalwork, all the tools, all the
techniques, all the materialsthat go into building something
as part of the office.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
And these were known as guilds.
They were the differentbuilding guilds, right that they
today you would call it like ageneral contractor, right?
A general contractor is agigantic company that builds
giant buildings, like a companythat the general contractor for
a skyscraper, for instance, yeahRight, and that entity right is

(39:10):
operative.
They actually do the work, yeahright, they use the tools, the
materials Right right, and someof them do it good and most of
them do it very poorly.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
What I like the most about this paragraph these days?
Mostly poorly, let's be honest.
Let's be totally honest.
It demonstrates that a fund ofscience and industry is
implanted in man, right there.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
This didn't come from us.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
It was implanted in man.
This fund of science andindustry.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
Yeah, and that is so true because in Mason we refer
to God as the grand architect ofthe universe.
And if you look at the universe, if you look at this earth and
you look at the world around us,there's architecture there, man
, there's engineering there.
It's very clear and, like youjust alluded to, it's in us,
it's implanted in us it has beenimplanted in us and everybody

(40:02):
knows this.
You take, I remember my kidswhen they were little, giving
them erector sets and Legos andthese things and watching them
build stuff.
They're building stuff.
They didn't need to be taughtthis.
My one son, Troy, he's justlike you.
Give him the most complicatedtoys for building stuff and you

(40:23):
come back and he's built the TajMahal, for goodness sakes.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Look what I did Like wow, Right, it's in us.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
It's absolutely in us .

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, and it's.
It's implanted in us for thebest, most salutary and
beneficial purposes, Meaningwe're supposed to use this drive
that we have given to us by ourcreator for the good of mankind
.
Yeah, that's right, that'sright.
There you go.
This is how free Mason reviewsoperative Masonry.

(40:53):
Now, the interesting part, thepart most of us live in, is the
speculative Masonry of today.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
And just so for those who don't understand operative
being those guilds, those peoplethat originally actually built.
Speculative is us free andaccepted masons who take the
concepts and ideas of thephysical builder and translate
them into that system ofmorality that is illuminated by

(41:23):
symbolism.
Right, and that's thedifference between operative and
speculative.
We are speculative masons.
We don't build physicalbuildings.
None of us are slinging mud.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
Not in the lodge.
Not in the lodge, not usually.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Not usually we are speculative, and I just think
the brilliance of thisfraternity is found in the way I
don't know who did all this,but whoever, whichever group did
this, if it built up over time,and we don't know who did this.
We don't know who did this, butit's brilliant in that it speaks

(41:58):
to men on the symbolism and theway the symbolism is used and
the way you dig into it and takeit and put it into your own
life.
It just speaks to men, itspeaks to us.
Like you said, it's in us, andthe way, the speculative, the
working tools, the square, thecompass, the level, all of it,

(42:20):
the way you can apply thesethings into your own life and
the way the system of degreework helps to reinforce it in
your mind.
You can't, I'm sorry, I'll sayit again.
Where are you gonna get thatman?

Speaker 2 (42:32):
You're gonna get that .
You ain't gonna get thatanywhere else when in the world.
That's right.
Well, let's see what the systemof freemasonry in Florida says.
Speculative masonry means.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
And I'm gonna stop you at some point, so go.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
Okay.
By speculative masonry we learnto subdue the passions, act
upon the square, keep a tongueof good report, maintain secrecy
and practice charity.
It is so far interwoven withreligion as to lay us under
obligation to pay that rationalhomage to the deity which at

(43:07):
once constitutes our duty andour happiness.
It leads the contemplated view,with reverence and admiration,
the glorious works of creationand inspires him with the most
exalted ideas of the perfectionof his divine creator.
Gosh, I love that.
Wow, so there's a lot there.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
That's just one parent.
That's the first paragraphright.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
So we learn to subdue the passions.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
In the interdeprens degree, we learn to subdue the
passions Right.
In the fellowcraft degree, welearn to act upon the square
Right.
Keep a tongue of good report.
So that means don't do anythingthat is gonna allow people to
say something bad about you Ishow I take that.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, keep a tongue of good report.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
To me it would be bad , or does that mean?

Speaker 1 (43:56):
don't say bad things about it.
No right, don't gossip, Don'tgossip, Don't be a gossip.
Don't run people down, butbuild people up.
Use your tongue for what it wasintended for to build people up
.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
So I failed at this recently you did, I did.
Are you confessing right now?
I made a Masonic error.
I was correct in my actions,but I went too far.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
And I did not keep a tongue of good report.
Oh I know what you're talkingabout.
Yeah, I got myself in some hotwater because I'm a zealous
Mason.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
He is, he is folks, if you know him, that is a true
statement.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
I really believe in the fraternal values and the
tenets of free Masonry, and whenI see masons not adhering to
them, I want to call it outbecause to me they're hurting my
reputation as a Mason.
It's hard enough to keep a goodreputation as a Mason in the
world, but to have masons outthere acting un-Masonic does not
help any of us.

(44:54):
So all right so let's talkabout that for a minute.
I won't say the name, we won'tsay the name.
Because that's how I got myselfinto trouble.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah, no, we're not gonna say names, we're gonna
keep, we're gonna use our tongue.
I did not Wisdom and a goodreport.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
I think I was correct in calling out the action, but
I should not have called out thename.
That was the part.
That was it Correct on my part?

Speaker 1 (45:15):
Well, we won't do that now.
But one of the things we'vesaid on the show before and one
of the standards that we havefor on the level with Fred and
Chris, the podcast, is that we,we do not charge.
No, no Mason should have to payfor the, the learning and the
teachings and the education thatthey're supposed to get
naturally through their lodge,right, we pay annual dues to our

(45:38):
lodge and our lodge gives useducation Through our degree
work.
If there's anybody out therethat's trying to charge money To
do this on the side, I don'tcare how many books they write,
I don't care how many seminarsthey do.
It is not Masonic, I'm sorry,yeah, it's just not, and I think
Florida Grand Lodge is backs usup on this.
I think they also would agreewith us.

(46:00):
And if I'm getting myself introuble here, no, I don't hear
about it.
You're allowed to have anopinion and I have a strong
opinion about that because itMasonry we're.
You know, we're on theascendancy.
In my opinion, masonry isgrowing again and and stuff like
this.
It can only slow that down.
Yeah, if you're a Mason andyou're paying somebody to teach

(46:22):
you the truths about Masonry, Iwould encourage you to stop
immediately, because you're not.
You're not acting within the,within the structure of your
lodge, and then they're gonnasay, well, fred, but my lodge
doesn't offer mentoring andthey're not doing a real good
job of this there.
Okay, then we said it beforebrother, you're the, you're the
solution, you, you see it.

(46:43):
Mentoring, you want it, youdesire it and you see it.
That makes you, that makes youthe change man.
You got to go out there and doit.
What you don't want to do islay down a chunk of money to
have somebody Teach you it forpay, right, what?
should be given what should begiven freely within your lodge,

(47:04):
because your lodge won't growUntil you get in there and
actually Begin to make thechange.
We were talking to brother Bobdown in Englewood, bob Gaten's
Bob Gaten's, the, the amazingBicycleist.
The man rode a bicycle fromCalifornia, from Venice,
california, to Venice, florida,and raised something like $8,000

(47:24):
.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
He's the bunch of money, money for, for our
charity and accomplished alifelong, you know challenge to
himself.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
I gotta tell you, man , I just love that guy, I just
do.
I feel like a leader and Bob isa leader.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Bob is already a leader, but I mean, as he
ascends through the Masonicranks, absolutely, absolutely,
shout out to you, bob, you'llsee this guy is gonna be yep
important.
Yeah, yeah, he's, he's, he'sgot, he's just got that focus
and we like him because he'sabout masonry, he's not about
Bob.
No, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
And and also worship for Don, who started a catechism
class Teaching people wantingto create a class, to bring guys
in from all over the districtand sit down and teach how to do
catechism yeah, which can onlylend itself to how to do
mentoring.
We we at our lodge, shout outto brother Wade and brother

(48:14):
Cliff who are working towardscreating a modules within the
mentoring program.
This is all part of Of payingyour annual dues and being
plugged into your local lodge.
This is not an opportunity Tocreate a side business.
It isn't and it it should neverbe and it should never be
sanctioned by, you know, by anyofficial right, free and

(48:38):
accepted masonic order at alland you know people will say
yeah, but you're doing this andyou're making money right, yeah,
they're gonna say to us we'remaking money wait, really.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
I mean, in theory it could make money, I guess.
But I mean, the difference forus is we're you know, we're not
charging any masons for anythingthat we say, no.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
We made any money, it would be from advertisers that
want to be able to talk aboutthemselves and we have been
approached by severalAdvertisers who would like to
get on the show, which we feelis an honor.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Earlier ads in our show.
Okay, absolutely.
I mean, that is how we'retrying to cover the expenses of
doing this thing, but we're notcharging masons directly for
stuff that they should get forfree.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Right, right, yeah, that's a line that we're not
gonna cross no, we will notcross that, and I just think
that there should be some kindof sanction Eventually for, or
some kind of official statementsaying hey, here's, here's where
you go to get educated in GrandLodge website where the mentors
manual or sides and you canread it for yourself.
You can read it for yourself.

(49:40):
We read it here on the show andin your lodge.
If you don't have a mentorshipprogram, that's, that's good,
well then.
Well then, brother, you're thesolution.
If you're seeing that there's areason why you're seeing that
deficiency, is because you'resupposed to step up and make
that change, and I, and I hopewe all would, and it is.
It is our goal on this show Toto make the need for an outside

(50:05):
Education product that you canbuy online Not necessary and
obsolete.
That is our goal.
We don't want to see that.
No anywhere.
We're not, it we're not mad atanybody, don't get us wrong.
No mad at anybody.
Defense, we are not trying toharm anybody, definitely.
But, but in our opinion, inthis show, this podcast, opinion
that's that's off limits andthat should not be so that was

(50:28):
first strike in my book.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Okay, this is one thing that I was already in my
mind.
And then the same individualdoing the first strike, which is
talked about right, that is, apublic figure in masonry who
purports to be a Knowledgeableperson about the fraternity
right, is literally givinganswers to questions about free
masonry as if they're truths,when sometimes their opinion

(50:52):
don't begrudge anybody that.
However, the second strike forme is this public person who's a
representative of free masonry.
The outside world is nowpublicly saying political things
, which also I don't have aproblem with, but in such a way
as to be derogatory, negative Topeople that he doesn't agree

(51:13):
with yeah, and, and that's justbad form.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
That's not my son, that's not my son as bad form.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
You're free to have an opinion and you're free to
express your opinion.
But as masons, we don't.
We keep a tongue of good report.
That's right, you'd keep right.
We just read be negative.
We don't call names.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
We don't try to disenfranchise people for me,
when I'm out in the, themarketplace of ideas, I'm more
talking about what I do believe,not what you don't believe, or
I'm not talking negatively aboutwhat someone else believes.
I'm not trying to Highlightsomeone else's belief structure

(51:52):
in a negative way ever.
I'm simply trying to explainmyself, yeah, and what I believe
.
And if there are differences,if you keep it to that level and
I have found this to be true,and I think a lot of people have
seen it in my life If you keepit to that level, people will
come to you with their beliefstructures and you can have
great conversations, sure, butto just get out there and throw

(52:13):
all these daggers and axes, yeahthat's what it is a political
level, daggers and you knowthough it's.
I don't know what it is, theleft versus right thing, or the.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
I guess it's a simple way to quantify.
It is yeah, you're this side orthat side, and if you're on
that side, you're bad.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Yeah, and, and you have just and, and you have just
cut yourself off from 50% ofthe people in this country.
Who does that?
Who?
Who is serious?
Many education.
I mean who is serious aboutlife and Community and and doing
better in this world and cuts50% of the people around you off

(52:48):
from any intellectualconversation.
To me that is not wise and it'scertainly not Masonic.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
No no, and this, this individual is not alone.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
No, no, no, we're not picking on one and this isn't
even a one-sided or other sideproblem.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
Personally, there are people that I have had to block
and unfriend on Facebook rightthat are on both sides Because,
yeah, either way, if you'regoing and saying really negative
, throwing those daggers, it'snot right, it doesn't matter if
you're talking about politics,birthday cakes.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
No, you're yourself right out of the game.
You're, you're, you're off,you're off the field.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
As soon as you start doing that, you are off the
field, we're supposed to havelike real discourse about things
and you should share youropinions and ideas 100%,
absolutely, but you should do itin a Masonic way, right, right?
Right, you have a conversation.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
Don't don't be hateful to anybody right
publicly and that's the we're inthe fellowship Fellowship,
we're in the fellow craftlecture which in that lecture
talks about the seven liberalarts and sciences.
One of those arts and Sciencesis rhetoric, and ready good
rhetoric is the ability to shareyour ideas in such a way as to

(54:01):
Bring another person into it.
Yeah, and educate them, whetherthey agree with it or not, is
not your job through persuasiveargument persuasive argument
through fact-based persuasiveargument with.
And we're Mason, so we'resupposed to do it with love in
our hearts, with gentleness andrespect, to help somebody else
See more light.

(54:22):
Yeah and and again.
If you're just Bloviating thatthe the party line, you're not
even on the field, man, you'renot even on the field.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
You're not really helping anybody, you're not
helping anybody.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Well, you might be helping yourself and you might
draw to yourself some peoplethat are like-minded, and that's
a crowd.
That's a crowd of people that Icall a mob.
That's what that is.
You're cultivating a mob,you're cultivating a cult.
You're bringing together peopleunder false pretenses to to
foist an, an idea not your ideafor positive change, but what's

(54:56):
wrong with somebody else's ideafor negative opinion?
And it's just it.
Just it just doesn't work.
I've been there, man.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
I've been there.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
Okay, I I was, I was the the right side guy of right
side guys man.
20 years ago I I worked for.
I've worked for politicalcampaigns.
I've done it.
I've knocked on doors, I'veI've done the email that I've
done it all and I can tell youright now it it for me, it was a
losing art, it was a losingoperation.

(55:25):
It absolutely made me miserable.
It it it separated me frompeople who could have been
friends of mine and and it gotus nowhere.
Listen, you want to talkpolitics here?
Try this one on for size, forthe for my entire voting
lifetime.
Okay, think about the presidentsthat we've had.

(55:48):
We had George Bush, then we hadBill Clinton for for two terms.
First, keeping Reagan.
Yeah well, I voted for Reagan,his last term as a as a kid you
know, starting off with that,that good high school Republican
bull crap, whatever it was.
But anyways, I voted for himbecause I was told to.
But, um, so we'll skip Reagan.

(56:10):
But Reagan's, reagan's man, thedirector of the CIA and one of
the wealthiest family, familyDynasties on the planet, george
Bush one went one term.
Then we had Bill Clinton fortwo terms.
Then we had his son, bush,george Bush Jr, for two terms.
Then we had Barack Obama fortwo terms, then we had Donald

(56:32):
Trump and now we have Joe Biden.
Let me ask you a question,brother if you're looking back
on all of that, how you doing,how's that going?

Speaker 2 (56:42):
It's not going great.
It's like a crazy pendulumgoing.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
It's this was this radical left, severe left, a
severe right, radical pendulum,but all the while, those people
keep getting more powerful andmore wealthy, yeah, and we
become more and more separatedand we have become more and more
poorer, with less influence andwith less love and community.
So, for as far as I'm concerned, I Think we need a better way.

(57:10):
I Think we need a better wayand I think it starts with not
throwing daggers yeah, notthrowing axes at people you
disagree with, but putting yourarms around them, shaking their
hand and saying, okay, wedisagree on this, but what do we
agree with?
How can we better Agree andwork sounds familiar.
Don't know how can we gettogether?

Speaker 2 (57:28):
or how about try to make a logical, logical argument
for your point?
Yes, please making an illogicalAccusation at the other guy.
Well, you don't make any pointon your own.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's not useful.
It's not useful and, frankly, Ihave no time for it.
And if you do it around me,you're, you're gonna get, you're
gonna get a Full-blown argumentand if you want one, it
happened I'm good at it.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
I did it publicly and Went up to my district deputy,
who you know.
I had to apologize and I regretthat I did say that brother's
name.
That was dumb and this is, youknow, a learning process.
No, it is.
It is.
I'm generally a good person.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
You are.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
You are a good person and you are a great Mason.
But this is the thing I'mzealous about, Mason.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
You're hurting something I love, and so I
overreacted.
I need to tack the idea and notthe person now, that's right.
I let's the lesson I learnedfrom that.
So I just wanted to say I amnot perfect and I apologize
publicly to anybody that mighthave seen anything I did that
was inappropriate.
I am not Claiming to be perfect.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
No, no, we're not.
We're not perfect, but but weare dedicated.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Yeah, it's always with good motivation, and the
motivation is is that this is afraternity that we love.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
You guys know how passionate we are about it.
We want to see it succeed and,and you know, when you attack
the fraternity or you, you, youbring disrepute in our opinion
to the fraternity.
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna havesome strong opinions and
sometimes our reactions.
Well, we need to work on thoseand yeah me, it's me, it's me.
Well, you know what it's.
It's, it's this show.

(59:05):
This show is on the level withFred and Chris.
So whatever Chris says, fredsays and whatever.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
Fred says, chris says I smelled the smoke with this
situation pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
Yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
We didn't want to think what we thought and then
just Repeated confirmation,confirmation.
It's hard not to see it.
Right, right yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
All right, let's keep going, let's keep going.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
Okay, we work in speculative masonry, but our
ancient brethren rotten bothoperative and speculative.
Wow, they're calling you anancient brother, I'm ancient.
They worked at the building ofKing Solomon's temple and many
other sacred and Masonicedifices.
They wrought for six days andrested on the seventh.
This section also refers to theorigin of the Jewish Sabbath,

(59:49):
as well as the manner in whichit was kept by our ancient
brethren.
Wow and six days.
God created the heaven and theearth and rested upon the
seventh.
The seventh day, therefore, ourancient brethren consecrated as
a day of rest from their labor,thereby enjoying frequent
opportunities To contemplate theglorious works of creation and

(01:00:11):
to adore the great Creator andwe're gonna stop there.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Yeah, yeah so interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
So this is a reference to the fact that the
great architect of the universebuilt it in six days.
Right, this is in Most holyscriptures, right, oh, the major
ones.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Well, I'm, yeah, the.
The idea of a seat of the sixdays of creation is, yes, it's,
it's universal in the majorreligions.
Yeah, for sure.
I I am not I've said thisbefore on the show I am not a
six-day Creationist well listen,everything can be symbolic in
nature.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Yeah, no.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
I, I do believe that, that God created the heavens
and the earth.
Make no mistake about that.
I do believe a mind, a superior, vastly powerful mind, is
Responsible for all of thisdesign and engineering that's
all around us and in us.
There's no doubt about that inmy mind.
The book of Genesis, from myperspective, gives a six-day and

(01:01:12):
seventh day of rest Allegory.
That is the first thing.
It's, if you look at it in theway Moses wrote it, it's easy to
memorize.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
It's really easy to memorize when that's what I did,
that's what they did back thenthey memorized things right and
and it also it isn't.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
It was never given and you can see it in the
writings even if you studyHebrew and you understand the
way the Hebrew language worksand how it all works, it was not
given to figure out dates andtimes right.
That's not what it was for.
So when you try to apply that,when zealous brothers try to
apply that to the, thescriptures, and say six days

(01:01:53):
only, six day creation only,otherwise, you can't be this or
can't be that, they make a hugemistake.
In my, in my opinion, theevidence just isn't there.
I've said it before.
There's a SN 1885, which is asupernova that we've been
tracking for many, many years.
The light signatures that are,that are seen in the sky, that

(01:02:15):
reach this planet, are 275,000years old.
That's a mathematical fact.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
That's not that old.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
That's not that old, but it's it's more than six days
.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Well yeah, the web telescope is able to look so far
into space.
They're trying to find thefirst light right, the first
light from the big bang, orwhatever you want to call.
The creation of this rightuniverse we live in, big bang,
doesn't make a whole lot ofsense to me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
It doesn't make sense because it's a point in time.
Let's talk about prior beforethat right come on like.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
But like anything, we're limited by our ability to
understand at this time, and sothis is the concept we've
created, right, right, and sothe but it is a fact that we now
have a telescope far enoughaway from the light of our own
sun that we can see a little bitDeeper into space than we ever
have, and we're seeing lightthat is many millions of years
old now Coming from deep reachesof space right, right and and

(01:03:13):
those are.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Those are mathematical equations that are
that are being, that are beingdone.
Mathematical equations likewhen we sent Gemini into space
and we said that in 12 yearsit's gonna pass by Jupiter, on
this day, at this time.
Guess what happened?
It passed by Jupiter on thatday and on that time why?

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
because it was a matter of mathematics, right
advanced mathematics and.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
Geometry and astronomy and algebra those are
empirical facts that have to bedealt with.
So when you, when you, you,when you, when you take it out
of its context, when you takethe the first two books of the
book of Genesis out of itscontext for the reason it was
given, then you come up with allthis wacky, crazy stuff and you

(01:03:57):
lose your credibility.
And that's what's happened, youknow, and you lose your
credibility.
That's why you know, that's whyChristians are looked at as
simpletons, with this childlikefaith that can't enter the
scientific debate.
Well, you know what a lot ofthese guys can't, because
they've misappropriated the, the, the truth of it.
You know, and anyways, I'mgoing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
You're just talking about that prior to recording
here.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
Oh, we were.
What was that that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Exactly this.
We were talking about the factthat we really don't know
anything for sure and we justkeep learning more and more, and
it's really challenging ourunderstanding of Reality, and I
think religious Institutionsfear that because they fear that

(01:04:43):
they're going to lose Controlthey'll, they'll lose the, the
paradigm, they'll lose thatgroup right.
But the people that prescribedto those particular faiths
should not fear this, becauseit's just revealing, brother
proof of what they believe.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
Yeah, that's right, and honestly it is.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Science is only helping us better understand our
own creation, and, and the morewe look into it, the deeper we
see.
And now, at the quantum level,there's more order than we ever
imagined right right, moreSymmetry than we could have ever
imagined in reality.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
And you know how can you not see a creator in that
there's, there's a mind more yousee, the more you should
believe, absolutely, absolutelythe book of creation, that book
that you see every day.
Go to the mountains, watch I'vesaid it before that the most
amazing thing I've ever seen isseeing a horse being a live
birth of a horse that gets upand feeds, you know from its

(01:05:42):
mother immediately, and thegestation period and all of that
stuff it is.
It is not.
It is not by accident, none ofit can be by accident.
All of it is designed, there'sa pre-program to every bit of it
.
I mean, it's just, it's like,it's like Sir Isaac Newton said
a Calvinist, by the way.
Like Sir Isaac Newton said, hesaid it's as if I'm thinking

(01:06:05):
God's thoughts after him.
Hmm, that's that.
That's what he said he would.
He's, he's the father of thecalculus, I mean.
And when he was, he, when hewas developing a system for
understanding, understandinggravity and the gravitational
pull and the equation offiguring out terminal velocity,

(01:06:26):
he, he, he said, he said he, hecan figure out how, how it does,
what it does, and he can trackit and he can create a
mathematical equation for it,but he still doesn't know why
it's there, yeah, how itcontinues, how does gravity
continue to work.
Some people want to say it'smagnetic, it's this, it's that,
but when you, every science,every fancy scientist ever who

(01:06:49):
has contemplated this thing,still must admit, at the end of
the day, we don't know what itis, you know we don't know what
it is things that people takefor granted in our everyday life
, that we use all the time, like, uh, I just had surgery, not
just, but I had surgery for thefirst time.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
And I was about to go out, the anesthesiologist was
there and he had the vial in hispocket and I was like, oh boy,
that's the good stuff, huh.
And he's like yep.
And I said, hey, can youexplain how this works to me?
And he's like, no, actually Ican't.
We really don't know.
I'm like what, you're theexpert, you're about to do this.
And he said, yeah, we observe,we record, we know what it does

(01:07:31):
and we know how manipulated, butwe don't fully understand how
this works.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
But we all trust it.
We all trust it with our livesconstantly.
So just because we don'tunderstand, a thing doesn't like
.
There's a saying in businessthat success leaves tracks, and
so you want to see the patternsand then follow in the footsteps
of the success, and this iswhat science is.
Success in life leaves tracks,and so we're trying to follow

(01:07:56):
the footprints of creation totry to understand.
And we observe.
And this is what science is weobserve, we record, we
experiment, we try to replicatethings so that we understand it.
And even if we do understandthe effect of something, it
doesn't mean we fully understandthe cause, the cause, and
that's what it comes down to iscausality.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
What caused all of this and for us it is in the
beginning would be oneexplanation, because prior to
the we know there was abeginning Right.
So Edwin Hubble postulated it,and then Boyle and the other
scientists.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
I don't know if we know that anything, that's the
thing.
I don't know anything for sure.
We don't know.
There was a beginning.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
Well, we do because of the red light shift.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
We can assume that it's our, based on our
understanding of things.
You're right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
You're totally right and that's why I always say what
is the most plausibleexplanation for why we are here?
What is the most plausible?

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
explanation.
But even here what we'retalking about, where it says God
created the heaven and theearth, that doesn't mean there
was nothing before that.
There was God, there wassomething there, a mind, a very
powerful fast.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Intelligence Mind that's right and that's the
theory that I hold to is knownas intelligent design, for that
reason that it is not in an ageof scientific enlightenment.
Natural selection throughrandom variation just simply
isn't plausible anymore.
And I found these guys, drStephen Myers, who started an

(01:09:35):
organization 20 years ago calledthe Intelligent Design
Institute, and he's just abrilliant man and some of them
are Christians, some of them arenot, but they're all scientists
and it is something we weretaught in high school or in
school that nothing createdeverything for no apparent

(01:09:57):
reason, and for me that neversat well.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Right, honestly, it didn't.
Nothing can't do anything.
It does still this day.
It doesn't make sense to me itmakes no sense.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
Nothing can do nothing, that's all nothing can
do.
If nothing can do something,then nothing is something.
It's just not possible.
We know that the universe had abeginning.
The most plausible explanation,according to Albert Einstein,
hubble and Boyle these brilliantmen of science down through the
ages that it did have abeginning, that it's all moving

(01:10:29):
away from each other, that it'sall continuing to move and
therefore it must have had abeginning Similar to that
beginning.
What was there?
Something was there.
That's a great conversation.
It just stimulates the mind sowell.
I don't care what persuasionyou're from, what religious
background you're from, it is agreat.

(01:10:50):
I have had that conversation ahundred times with men and women
and all it has done issharpened my mind and caused me
to think deeper and deeper aboutwhy we are here and our origins
.
It can only help if it's donewith gentleness and respect.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
And the book that you currently prescribe all your
belief to is full of morallessons.
Absolutely.
If you just are willing to getpast the idea that you're
memorizing facts and startlearning the lessons of the
stories, you'll probably havemore fun and be a better
representative of your faith.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
And that's right.
That's right Because, at theend of the day, we all enter the
marketplace of ideas and all ofus should be willing and able
to give our 15 minutes in themarketplace of ideas.
Here's what I believe, here'swhy I believe it.
And somebody else says well,here's what I believe and here's
why I believe it, and togetherwe can all go down this path,

(01:11:44):
together, talking and reasoningand coming to some conclusions.
It's my hope and prayer thatevery man will come to a
definite conclusion, Will cometo what is the most plausible
explanation based on your.
I still cure search.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
I know you want me to , but I still can't do it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
What is the most plausible.
I just don't know.
No, that's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
That's all right, but I'm open, I keep listening, I'm
still searching for more thingsthat I can say.
This makes sense.
This makes sense.
I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
That's absolutely cool.
That's absolutely awesome.
Okay, we are an hour and a halfin and we have done half a
paragraph.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
No, we got a couple pages done.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Gosh, we got a couple pages.
I think we should probably endit here.

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
Sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
That's okay.
I think it was a really greatepisode.
We did get a few things inoperative speculative mations.
We started in the beginningtalking about the first part of
the lecture.
I would say that anybody who'samazing go back to the blue book
If you're a Florida mason, theFlorida Masonic Monitor and read
that first paragraph and kindof contemplate it and think

(01:12:47):
about it.
It really does give a greatexplanation of our craft and the
symbolism that we use and whywe do what we do.
In my opinion, I am real big onthis right now.
I keep thinking that this iswhat people need to hear from
masonry.
We've been too I'm going to getin trouble for this We've been
too secret that which we cantell the world.

(01:13:12):
We should, let me say it thatway.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
Those things that we can share.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
We should start sharing so that people will have
an understanding of what we do,because there's a lot of people
out there who are under thewrong impression about what we
do.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):
I agree with that.
We have secrets.
If you're not a mason, we doand we love them.
You are afraid of the fact thatmasonry has secrets, and I had
this conversation with my wife'sfather.
I would ask you do you havesecrets?
You have secrets.
Do you have secrets you'rekeeping from anyone in your life
?
I'm thinking you might you do.

(01:13:47):
Of course you do.
Does that make you horrible,satanic bad?
Maybe, but probably not,Probably not.
If you killed somebody andthat's your secret, you're
probably yeah, keep that one,that's bad.

Speaker 1 (01:13:59):
Yeah, definitely keep that to yourself.
We don't want to hear that Mostof you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
but you do have secrets.
You do.
It doesn't make you bad.
Our secrets don't make us bad.

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
The only thing we can say is our secrets make us
better, because it's part of whowe are as a fraternity.
One of the things we talkedabout in the lecture today was
secrecy.
Yes, maintain secrecy.
Yeah, secrecy, which is huge,we probably need more men in
this world who can keep a secret, who can keep the mouth shut.

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
It's tough because you really know, when you tell
someone something you don't wanteveryone to know, I think
there's always a part of youthat's like man, how many people
is that person going to tell?
Yeah right, right, I might'vejust embarrassed myself.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
We were having a conversation with somebody the
other day and he said to us look, this is on our obligation.
We, all three of us, knewexactly what that meant.
No other soul may know what weare saying, no other soul other
than the three people in thatcar.
No other soul may know what wassaid.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
That's what that means.
That's an important part of whowe are, yeah yeah, it doesn't
mean it's bad because someonewants to tell you something
that's not meant for everyone tohear.
It just means it's sensitive,especially to that person.

Speaker 1 (01:15:14):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
And so, out of respect and love, we keep it
private for that person.

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
That's right, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:22):
But it's an honor to be told something like that,
because you now have a deeperrelationship with that person
and you can talk about thatthing with them.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
That's right.
It fosters that brotherhood.
I'm brothers with men allaround the world who know the
same secrets I do and I canconfide in them.
You don't confide in everyperson you meet in the world.
You have to have.
A person has to earn the rightto be in your life in that way.
But we are bound together by anobligation and by this

(01:15:52):
fraternity that holds thesesecrets sacred amongst us.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
Here's another thing, extremely grateful, what you
just said brings up in thecounter culture.
They say aw, masons supporteach other, even through rape
and murder.
They'll support each other likea judge will support a mason
who's at trial for murder.
Okay, it's not true.
That is so not true.
We are bound to obey the lawsof the government that we live

(01:16:19):
in.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
That's right, absolutely, and a higher
standard.
In my opinion, masons holditself to a higher standard.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
You're not a mason.
If you've done that bad thing.
In fact, we'll expel you fromthe order if you've done that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
That's exactly right.
It's a misconception aboutmasons that we stick together no
matter what, that we cover eachother's tracks, that we
conspire together to break thelaw 100%, not true.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
Yeah, no, that's.
I would not be a part of anorganization like that.
It would be counter.
Do we help each other?

Speaker 2 (01:16:49):
Yeah, yes, sure, do you come to the need of somebody
that needs you?
Yes, absolutely.
That's what we mean.

Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
But the truth is is that if there's somebody in our
lodge who has committed grandlarceny to the tune of a couple
million dollars against theiremployer, You'll be expelled
from Masonry.
And the reason why is becausewe love you.
You need to be exposed for whatyou did.
You need to face the justicefor what you have done, and we

(01:17:16):
will expel you and we will turnyou over to the authorities.
Why?
Because we do love you and wedon't want you to live under
that.
We want restitution to be madeto those who have been harmed.
We want the fraternal order tomaintain its respectability in
this world.
And that is done out of love.
We do not co-sign anyone's badbehavior.

(01:17:37):
No, it's just not done in ourorder.
It'll get you out of our order,does it?

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
happen?
I would bet it does.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
I would bet it does only because there's humans.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
Humans are involved.
Is the government supposed todo the things it's doing?

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
No, is it doing them, yes, yes, does it happen in
Masonry?

Speaker 2 (01:17:54):
I would bet it does Absolutely, but it's not Masonic
and if the right person catchesyou, they'll call you out.
So hopefully we can generatemore good people that won't
tolerate things and will holdeach other accountable, so we
can be proud of the fraternitythat we're part of Right on.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
All right, man.
Well, this was a great episode.
We didn't get far, but nexttime we'll focus more.
Oh, I say that all the time.
Next time we'll try to focusmore on the work.
I know that's what you guyswant from us and we are glad and
honored to provide it.
You got anything for us beforewe go out, chris?

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
No, I appreciate you sharing what you did and I want
to remind people to contact youat Fred at
onthelevelofFredandChriscom.

Speaker 1 (01:18:39):
I would appreciate that it would be a great joy to
be able to sit down and answeremails and messages for sure,
and we'll be thinking about youthis weekend.

Speaker 2 (01:18:47):
Yeah, thanks, man.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
All right, guys, like I've been trying to have a
parting saying for the show thatI've been working on, and it
goes like this Now that you'veheard what you've heard, go back
to your lodge and build itstrong.

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