January 11, 2024 • 69 mins
When Jackie Jones of Flourish Momentum shares her journey from an art educator to a therapist, we're reminded that sometimes the most profound changes in our lives come from unexpected transitions. This episode is a testament to how embracing the art of healing can illuminate a path toward reclaiming life after trauma, particularly for veterans and active-duty military personnel grappling with PTSD and its complex cousins. Together with Jackie, we uncover the layered realities of psychological conditions like moral injury and complicated grief, and the ways in which creative self-expression can be a powerful ally in the fight for mental well-being.
The transformative power of art therapy takes center stage as we recount the evolution of its programs within the military healthcare system. By transcending skepticism and integrating into places like Fort Belvoir, art therapy has emerged as a critical tool for processing trauma and unearthing subconscious issues. Jackie's anecdotes bring to life the profound impact it has on individuals, from a man learning to accept his past to a veteran shouldering immense loss. These stories are a beacon of hope, illustrating that with the right support, the journey to self-acceptance and sharing one's pain is not only possible but life-changing.
Our conversation wraps up, emphasizing the essential nature of personalized mental health treatment. We tackle the frustrations many encounter with overmedication and one-size-fits-all approaches, highlighting the promise of alternative therapies like sound bowl sessions and the importance of addressing the deep-rooted causes of emotional distress. As Jackie and I reflect on these themes, the episode becomes a call to action for anyone looking to understand their trauma and to find the courage to move forward in life. Join us for an honest, insightful look at the challenges and triumphs on the road to healing.
Get in touch and follow Jackie below:
https://flourishmomentum.com/
IG: @Flourish_momentum
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/jackiejones
Contact her on any of the links or simply drop her an email:
Jackie@FlourishMomentum.com
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jackie Jones (00:00):
There are a lot of people who would come to me
with the diagnosis of PTSD andthey would say I have been
treating PTSD for so long.
I don't know why I'm stillstuck on this.
In the work that we did, Icould help them see the more
nuance of what they were dealingwith.
So whether it was more moralinjury or more complicated grief
(00:22):
or more disenfranchised grief,Shame, Guilt, there's so many
things that are more nuancedthan PTSD diagnosis and when
they were presented with theseother terms it was really
validating for them because ithelped them feel seen for more
(00:45):
of what they were actuallyexperiencing.
To answer your question, thepart of it is the labels.
Part of it is when people aregiven certain labels or given
certain medications.
They feel like I guess I justam this thing for the rest of my
life, or I guess I just am thisway for the rest of my life, or
(01:06):
I guess I just have to bedependent on meds for the rest
of my life.
But it's not true.
Those are all labeling symptomsor dealing with symptoms.
But if you can get to the rootof what's going on, a lot of
times you can completely shiftyour experience and how you live
in the world and feel in theworld.
Thad David (01:25):
My name is Thad David.
I'm a former Marine recon scoutsniper with two deployments to
Iraq.
As a civilian, I've nowfacilitated hundreds of personal
and professional developmenttrainings across the country,
and it struck me recently thatthe same things that help
civilians will also helpveterans succeed in their new
roles as well.
Join me as we define civiliansuccess principles to inspire
(01:46):
veteran victories.
Welcome to another episode.
I'm here today with JackieJones of Flourish Momentum.
How are you doing, jackie?
I'm wonderful.
Jackie Jones (01:55):
How are you doing today?
Thad David (01:58):
Just absolutely incredible.
Thank you so much for jumpingon.
I know you've done a ton ofwork with active duty military,
with veterans, that you're doingnow and I've been very excited
for this conversation and sothanks for taking some time, If
you could.
I know you worked with whatyou're doing now and then also
in the past you worked withactive duty military members.
(02:20):
What did you do?
If you could just share alittle bit?
How did you get into it?
What did you do there?
Jackie Jones (02:25):
Of course, okay.
So first career I was an artteacher and I had goals of
working with at-risk youth.
When I was in school for arteducation, I wound up
volunteering I mean leavingcollege early and volunteering
(02:48):
in Brazil for a while, and whenI was working with homeless kids
and moms in Brazil I felt likeI would have had more of the
impact I would have wanted tohave if I had an art therapy
approach versus an art educationapproach.
Came back, became an artteacher because that was my
(03:10):
track.
I had already it was on my wayto getting my master's in art
education.
But as soon as I started there,I started night school with art
therapy being my goal, and soit would have.
I was on the track to do arttherapy with kids, and when I
(03:33):
was a teacher though an artteacher things would come up in
the kids' artwork and I wasinterested already in the
intersection of art andpsychology, where I was noticing
these flags coming up in theartwork.
But it wasn't my role toprocess them or address them
(03:55):
with the kids.
I had to show the artwork to aguidance counselor and then it
would never circle back to me.
And so, number one, I didn'treally like how I'm the one who
created the container for thesethings to come up, but I wasn't
allowed to be part of theprocessing part.
(04:16):
And then also as a teacher, itwas very clear that when you're
dealing with, let's say,behavioral issues in kids,
there's only so much you can do.
When you realize that eitherthey're learning something from
(04:38):
home or they're reacting tosomething from home, it's also
not your role to become atherapist for the parents.
And also, when I left teachingto go to school for art therapy,
the PTA president at the timetold me aside and said friendly.
(05:00):
But he said no matter what youdo, don't go work with adult men
because they're not going toget this, they're not going to
appreciate what you're bringingto the table.
And I took that as a challenge.
I was like okay, in my mind.
I was like, okay, noted, that'sa challenging population.
I'm probably going to seek itout.
When I was in school for arttherapy, I did my first year
(05:26):
long internship with kids withcancer.
But when you're in school forart therapy, you do a lot of
analyzing your own life and alot of things were coming up for
me that I was dissecting in myown life and that I was
(05:47):
investigating in my own life.
So, number one, I had theexperience of being a teacher
and learning that to addresssome of the issues that were
showing up in the kids, youwould really need to be working
with the parents.
Thad David (06:04):
Can I ask you about that?
Actually, because, just out ofcuriosity, you mentioned flags
with artwork.
What is a flag from a kid'sartwork?
What would that look like?
What did you notice there?
Jackie Jones (06:16):
Yeah, actually, okay, this is a good tie for
where I wound up.
So I had the student inparticular who I better
understood later when I learnedall about art therapy and
psychology and development andthis kind of thing.
But he would be in the middleof a drawing and it would be on
(06:42):
track and then all of a suddenwe'd have like five minutes left
of drawing that day and hewould take the black pastel and
just color over the entire thing.
So he'd go from having apicture that was the assignment
to blackening his whole paper,or he would have like a normal
(07:04):
second grade project, would belike an architecture project,
like design, a dream home orsomething based on these
different principles, andeverything would be going
according to plan.
And then at the last 10 minuteshe would like draw a bomb all
over it or something.
So things like this.
(07:26):
And then, when you can't be partof the processing, you don't
know if it's influence from avideo game or influence from a
bigger brother, or if he hasanger toward people in the
school, and so you things comeup that you you want to better
understand.
Is this what's this kid goingthrough?
(07:48):
What are the emotionsunderlying this?
Because you don't want to readinto something incorrectly, but
you're not.
That's not your role.
It will circle back to when Istarted working with the
military.
Thad David (08:00):
Actually, that's just curious, because I'm
thinking, I'm looking at my kidsartwork Like I have a.
My son drew me a heart within aheart within a heart.
So I was like I wonder how am Igoing to analyze all the
drawings they bring home fromschool?
So I was just, I was justcurious to know what, what that
was.
It's very intriguing thing.
I would have never thought tothink about the psychology
(08:20):
inside of what's taking placewhile kids are drawing, but it
makes makes perfect sense and soyou wanted to be part of the
processing of it and you kind offollow that pathway.
And so where did you end upafter all of this?
Jackie Jones (08:37):
So at the same time also uncovered things about
my family, like an uncle whohad served in Vietnam died from
ODing, and my grandfather, who Inever met because he was died
(09:00):
before I born.
He died before I was born.
He had escaped the Holocaust.
So that's number one.
But number two, he wound upbeing a service number for the
US and later on he died, and hedied in a train track, so they
don't know if it was suicide ormalicious.
(09:21):
And and also I was in arelationship where there was the
other family had justlongstanding prejudices they
couldn't overcome.
I couldn't see me as who I am,as a person, and but it was
(09:42):
rooted in conflict and otherareas of the world and other
times.
And so all these things cametogether and it's like, ok, it's
more than just a challenge togo work with quote unquote adult
men.
There are lots of reasons thatI.
It would have made sense for meto go work with kids, but I
felt more and more guided to gowork with the military in
(10:07):
particular.
And so my second yearinternship when I was in grad
school for therapy wound upbeing at NICO.
So I was at the National TrepidCenter of Excellence at Walter
Reed for a year long internshipproviding our therapy there, and
it was a phenomenal experience.
(10:29):
And while I was there theIntrepid Fallen Heroes Fund had
gotten the money and wasbreaking ground on outpatient
settings.
That would be like the NICO,but the NICO program is only
four weeks.
So especially SEALs would besent there to do TBI, ptsd
(10:54):
assessment and rehab for fourweeks, but then they'd return
and they would have nowhere todo the same sort of modalities
that they had just been exposedto.
So, for example, someone mayhave really been taken to art
therapy, but there is.
I mean you can get a lot infour sessions, like one time a
(11:16):
week for four weeks, but it'smore uncovering the root of
what's going on.
Generally you need longer thanthat to then, once you have the
root of what's going on, processit and integrate the changes
and transform within yourself.
So anyway, then that's just arttherapy.
(11:39):
But you know people wouldreceive acupuncture there and
then have nowhere to keepgetting it or you know that kind
of thing.
So it started breaking ground,yeah.
Thad David (11:50):
No, it makes me think of, like, if I ever have a
gap of time where I stopworking out and kind of get out
of shape, you know have thatmoment where I work out for a
month and then you kind of hitthat crossroads where it's like
you know what I can I can goback to eating cheeseburgers, I
can and then you let yourselfkind of slide, but you're
feeling good, and then what I'mhearing is they come to you for
four weeks, experience some goodstuff, and then they go back to
(12:12):
their units.
Yeah, and then they don't haveit back in the same old same old
without actually having accessto it.
And just for clarity sake, whatis typical?
You mentioned acupuncture.
What is art therapy consist of?
Just so we can kind of followalong what somebody might be
doing for four weeks.
Jackie Jones (12:30):
So what is art therapy consist of?
Well, so this was at the nightgoes, four weeks, and and
they've changed the program abit since then but from there we
would do masks.
The first session, first week,second week was writing, third
(12:51):
week was a montage experience,and then fourth week would be
being able to finish any one ofthose projects if they weren't
done yet, or doing somethingmore individualized for the
person, because the first threewould be groups and then you'd
usually have a one on one, sojust one on one with people.
And then, the year I happened tobe there as an intern, they
(13:16):
were breaking ground on a siteat Fort Belvoir.
So that was going to be thefirst satellite center to open.
That would be set up verysimilarly to the the night go,
except it the point was that itwould be outpatient, so people
(13:37):
could still be living at home,still be working with their unit
every day, but then also beable to incorporate, you know,
longer term treatments along theway.
So I, even though the arttherapy at night go is really
successful, they initiallyweren't going to include the art
(14:01):
therapy at the Fort Belvoirprogram.
So I had written a proposal tothe National Endowment for the
Arts and was granted some pilotfunding, essentially.
And I presented at Belvoir andsaid you know, this is
everything we're doing at nightgo, I should give me a chance to
bring it here.
(14:21):
And they just gave me a roomand they weren't paying for me
at that point.
They just gave me a room andlike three months to try to
embed myself and within thosethree months it was really
everyone took to it very well.
So then I became a contractor,and within that first year they
already created a GS physicianfor me.
(14:43):
From there it grew.
Wow and circling back to thestory about the kid in school
that I was talking about.
When I first came into the FortBelvoir clinic, the reason that
I think people took to it soquickly was they had really
(15:06):
established psychologists,psychiatrists, who, in in
talking to certain clients,would do what they would
normally do.
But then there were a couple ofclients in particular who had
bring in artwork that they weremaking, whether they created a
sculpture at a community ceramiccenter or had drawn an image at
(15:31):
home that they brought in toshare with the psychologist or
psychiatrist, and like one, forexample, one of the first ones
brought to me.
I'll tell the story more simply.
One of my very first days there, psychiatrist came up to me and
he said this is the artwork,that's, that's so, and so is
(15:53):
creating.
Do you think you can work withthis?
It's like, of course, becauseas a art therapist you're
trained to be able to process nomatter what is shown in a piece
of work.
So, whereas another providermay be hesitant to like, analyze
(16:15):
incorrectly a piece of art workof someone blowing their head
off, this is the kind of thingthat would show up, like it
would show up in sessions and inthe processing throughout
therapy.
(16:35):
You know the difference of isthis a call for help because
someone's about them and theirown life, or is this someone
depicting what it feels like tohave a TBI?
Or is this what someone is, howsomeone is expressing how they
feel like they're just explodingemotionally.
(16:57):
So, whereas in schools a lot oftimes you have to shut down
certain symbolism before you canreally get to the root of what
it means, it was really niceworking for the military and
having the ability to not shutdown what came up but to just be
(17:19):
able to authentically processit.
Thad David (17:25):
And so what do you do when you promise me, what
does that processing look like?
I mean, what do you do afterthat point, or what would you?
What did you do in thosesituations?
Jackie Jones (17:34):
Well, it varies across the board, but so I'll
say that in psychology, a lot oftimes they're taught to analyze
artwork, meaning that certainsymbols mean certain things, but
in art therapy we are taughtthat the same symbol could mean
(17:57):
something very different foreveryone who creates it.
So, instead of taking someone'sart and just analyzing it, for
them it's very much a process ofyou're sitting with them while
they're creating.
You're aware of the sequencethat they're creating different
things in.
(18:18):
You're aware of the energy thatthey're creating different
parts of the picture orsculpture or painting, whatever
it is in.
You're aware of, like the orderor the placement you're looking
at at body cues.
You're really observing so manydifferent things.
(18:40):
And then, after the person hascreated what they've created and
it's there on the table numberone, we have a triangle that
occurs where it's no longer likethe dynamic between a therapist
and a client.
It's the therapist and theclient, and the artwork becomes
a third party which helps it beremoved from the client.
(19:01):
So they can not feel likethey're talking about themself
quite so much and they'redescribing the artwork.
And through the describing ofthe artwork you can learn a lot
and help guide them throughreally getting the insight into
(19:22):
why they did things in a certainorder, or like you can really
analyze the dynamics of thingson a page.
So, just as an easy example,someone who made a mask one day
in his very first session wasable to look at it and say, oh
my God, I thought that X thingwas affecting me 5%, but I see
(19:46):
that that one thing is actuallyaffecting me like 95%.
So that thing that I wasn'tdealing with because I didn't
think it really mattered isactually what I should be
dealing with first.
So you get to really helppeople communicate more with
their subconscious and learn thewisdom from what's within.
Thad David (20:10):
So does it?
Does everybody align with this?
I mean, does everybody come inand have great experiences with
it?
And it makes me think of,because I hear of different
types of therapy and I alwayswonder which one is best for,
and I would imagine it varies.
But I'm just, I'm genuinelycurious to know what your
thoughts are of if it's positivefor everybody or if somebody's
(20:30):
dabbling in it.
What thoughts do you have thereif somebody's considering
therapy?
Jackie Jones (20:34):
Well, I think it can work with everyone.
You don't have to be an artist.
So initially people avoid itbecause they think they have to
be an artist, or they avoid itbecause they think it's quote,
unquote, hippie shit and it'snot gonna do anything for them.
So it's less about who it's forand it's more about when it's
for the person.
(20:55):
So, there's some people whowould come into the clinic and
there's less stigma, likethere's the least stigma
associated with, like, your leghurting, right.
So there are people who mightbe afraid of addressing any
mental health concerns butthey'll show up in the clinic
because they need some PT.
So then they'll be in PT for awhile and then their PT will
(21:19):
start to say, hey, jackie, I'mgonna refer so and so to you
because he keeps talking to meabout things in our sessions
that I am not trained to talk,to respond to.
So then they might graduallyget from PT sent to me or they
might not be ready for therapyyet and they might be sent to
(21:39):
occupational therapy or speechtherapy and occupational therapy
and speech therapy is often abrilliant bridge to then come
work with us because, forexample, in speech, they might
be learning all of thetechniques and strategies that
(22:02):
they need to learn in order todeal with their TBI symptoms.
But the speech therapist willget to a point where they're
like I don't know why they'renot integrating them.
They know them, they understandthem.
I don't know why they're notintegrating them, they can't
verbalize it to me.
And then they would get sent toour therapy because it's a
(22:24):
nonverbal therapy and even whenpeople would go to I mean,
there's less stigma associatedwith going to a social worker
than coming to an art therapistso there would be people who'd
come in and they'd be ready tosee a social worker and then
(22:45):
they would hit points that theyjust could not talk about.
And so the thing about trauma isthat when something traumatic
happens, the verbal areas of ourbrain become inhibited and so
they're not online when you'rereally in the depths of
(23:06):
experiencing the trauma.
So it's really hard then, whenyou're taking a primarily verbal
approach, to understand whathappened and why it impacted you
, because the verbal partsweren't there.
So that's where a nonverbaltherapy like art therapy is
(23:27):
really great, because weactually a lot of therapy goes
top down, which means like youknow something's bothering you
and then you understand like theemotions and unconscious
reactions that were beneath it.
But in our therapy at Surveysit's bottom up.
So we create an environmentwhere you just create
(23:50):
intuitively and then, based onwhatever was intuitively created
, things come up from thesubconscious and then you're
able to describe what's on thepage and then you have meaning
and understanding from it.
So a lot of people are able tofind success through these
(24:13):
nonverbal ways of expressing andprocessing that could break
through the blocks that theywere just getting to verbally.
So sometimes it looks likeresistance, like sometimes there
were providers who thought theclients like just weren't
talking, but those clients wouldcome to me and say I didn't
(24:38):
have anything else to say, andso it's important to have all of
these different pieces workingtogether.
Yeah, so it's less about whoit's for and more about when
it's for you.
Thad David (24:56):
And I could see some .
I love that you pointed outthat people say I'm not an
artist.
It's probably something I wouldimagine comes up really quickly
and I'm really intrigued by it.
What would and obviously Iwould encourage anybody that's
seeking it go see a professional, and I'm curious what would be
the first like would youliterally just sit down and
start drawing something?
Is that?
Jackie Jones (25:19):
Well, in our therapy it's funny it kind of
seems like we're doing nothingbut we're actually doing a lot.
So, like in a first session, itwould be hard to take someone
who doesn't consider themself anartist at all and just give
them a blank piece of paper andsay draw something, because it's
(25:42):
kind of like the container ofpossibilities is too wide and
the person would shut down ornot know where to start.
And so we think a lot about theright amount of a container to
provide someone and then theright directive so that they
(26:04):
have ample opportunity forgenuine self-expression within
that container.
So yeah, it looks verydifferent in every session, but
there's a method to the madness.
There's a reason that will givea mask versus a piece of paper
versus a canvas, and there's areason we'll give colored
(26:25):
pencils versus charcoal, versusmagazines to cut up.
Thad David (26:32):
Sensing a Marine Corps eating crayons joke
somewhere that some of youlistening is probably gonna be.
That's why you didn't mentionthose, because us Marines are
just gonna eat them.
You mentioned the, and it'ssomething that I talk about in
other areas, but so when thecontainer of possibilities too
large, people shut down.
Jackie Jones (26:52):
Yes, yeah.
Thad David (26:54):
Why is that?
Jackie Jones (26:57):
I think because there's time for them to get in
their head.
Thad David (27:00):
Okay.
Jackie Jones (27:01):
I think there's time for you to get in your head
and you put in your ownself-judgment before you can let
your intuition start to guideyou.
So we give just enoughcontainer that the direction is
there, but there's also freedomto self-express.
Thad David (27:19):
There's a sculptor and I forget her name.
I'm gonna say Shen and King,but it's a favorite quote of
mine.
Process freezes us from thepoverty of our own intentions,
and she just mentions that onceyou have your median like she's
a sculptor.
But if you're just thinkingabout the artwork, you just, in
(27:39):
the very same light, you don'treally know.
But once you say you know what,I'm gonna pick this medium, I'm
gonna do this on this piece,then your freedom starts and the
creativity starts to come outbecause you've dialed in of
where you're going with it.
And that's what I thought ofwhen you were talking about the
containers.
Too big is just her quote.
I think it's really cool how itlines up.
So I'm curious to ask what wasthe?
(28:01):
Because I'm sure you've seen alot of different things.
So the biggest I don't know ifa better word to call it, but
success story or biggest benefitsomebody's got from it that you
saw as much as you can share.
Obviously, these are privatesessions, but I'd love to know
what are some of the good thingsthat you've seen come out of it
, or specific stories.
Jackie Jones (28:23):
Yeah Well, first can I address something you said
about the quote that thatartist said Please, yeah, I
would love to.
What that made me think of wasbecause my background I was an
artist and I was an art teacherand that whole process, what
(28:44):
people are used to, is whereit's product oriented.
So you have a goal in mind, youcreate your thumbnail sketches,
you think about how you'regonna make it happen and then
you actualize it.
And that does play into arttherapy too, but generally art
(29:04):
therapy is process over product.
So you try to get the goal isto get people, get people
creating where it's more processoriented.
They're using a color in thatmoment because that's what feels
right to use in that moment.
They create a certain image, acertain way, because that's what
(29:26):
they're guided to create inthat moment, and then the
product comes and then you canexplore the product to see
everything that it meant to you.
But it winds up being so.
This circles back to the lastquestion, because I think a lot
of people understand art asbeing product oriented.
(29:48):
So if you just give someone ontheir first day a blank piece of
paper, there's this pressurethat they need to be
Michelangelo or they're gonna bea laughing stock in the room.
But if you can really bring itback to actually just see this
as problem solving justliterally grab the first color
that's speaking to you, create amark in a way that's most
(30:13):
speaking to you right now, andthe product will come.
And then, once someone is onthat path of creating
intuitively, they get in thatflow state and their inner
wisdom can really come up on thepage before they have a chance
to shut it down.
So and it was really freeingfor me actually to it was hard
(30:38):
at first, honestly, going frombeing an art teacher to becoming
an art therapist, because I hadall these natural ways of being
that were more ed appropriate.
I had to learn how to rein thatin and like save the art ed for
later when it would be helpfulfor a person and not shut down
(30:59):
their authentic self-expression.
So, yeah, so I just wanted torespond to that.
Thad David (31:08):
Yeah, no, I'm glad that you did pause and you
mentioned something that kind ofgave me a thought of just
getting into flow state, and Ithink that's something that I've
heard time and time again ofvarious things that therapy or
just things that can help people, help veterans, flow state
seems to be a common thread ofsomehow getting into that flow
(31:30):
state.
And why is that so important toget into that flow state?
Jackie Jones (31:37):
Oh, so many reasons.
Number one it helps you quietyour mind.
So, going this weekend I'll bedoing the next week at Outdoor
Odyssey, which I'm reallyexcited about.
I'm gonna be bringing Zentanglethere.
It's a mindfulness drawingtechnique and this is what I've
(31:57):
been contracted by VA's to offer, as well as classes.
A reason it's so good isbecause it's doing art therapy
without the processing.
It's teaching people how to getinto flow state without
processing things, so they'requieting their mind when they
(32:18):
didn't think they could quiet it.
Time flies by in ways that theyhaven't experienced.
If they're dealing with pain,the pain goes away.
If they're dealing with anxiety, the anxiety goes away and it's
also a boost of dopamine.
So when people feel like theyhave a hard time accessing that,
(32:43):
naturally this is a way thatyou can do that.
So chemically it's really goodfor you.
It makes people feel happy andconnected and joy, a lot of
feelings that they thought wereturned off in them just by
getting into flow state, just bybeing fully present and knowing
that, if they can get totallyfully present, the pain that's
(33:05):
usually nagging them subsides,or the thoughts that are usually
nagging them subside.
Thad David (33:14):
That makes just a ton of sense.
I'm so happy we took thislittle journey down into, into
flow state and different things,because and how would you best?
Just for anybody listening to?
I don't know that I've everdefined it, it's always just a
feeling that I've never put adefinition into.
But just for anybody listeningthat might not have defined it,
do you have a definition forflow state, of what that
(33:35):
actually means to you?
Jackie Jones (33:38):
They're to me, yeah, so there is a definition?
Yeah, there's a definition.
It's a coined term but itbasically embossed it.
It means when you're soimmersed in something that
you're basically you're soimmersed in something, your
(33:58):
physical needs fall away.
So, like you forget you'rehungry, you forget you're
thirsty, you're not reallythinking, you're just totally
immersed and one pointed focusedon something.
And it comes with, yeah, beingfully present.
For me, how I would get deeperin that is how, so, as an art.
(34:22):
So I got into art when I wasborn, I mean since I've been
born and I got into yoga andmeditation in my later twenties
and so the whole time that artwas my thing.
And even working in the military, I'd have chaplains or I'd have
bosses telling me like, oh,you're not doing spiritual
(34:44):
things, oh, you're not.
Like art, therapy is notspiritual.
I'm like people are havingspiritual experiences in here
and it is my spiritual where Igo to tap into that and to be
connected to something greaterthan me and to tap into that
inner knowing that I can't knowjust from my own, like busy mind
(35:05):
, and so it's really so.
I think like flow state isyou're doing an activity that
gets you so immersed, you'refully present and the same, and
you wind up with like atranscendent experience where
(35:26):
you tapped into creativity thatyou wouldn't have been able to
otherwise, or you tap into waysto problem solve, or your
awareness grows in ways that youwouldn't have been able to if
you didn't do something toexpand yourself.
So for me it's kind of like thebridge between like an activity
(35:47):
that a waking state person isdoing to get so fully present
and immersed that they wind upexpanded in some way.
Thad David (35:55):
Right on.
Do you think there's acorrelation?
Because it made me think of inthe military and thinking of
being in combat is 100%, I meanyou're getting into flow.
It'd be hard to not get intosome sort of a flow state being
in combat but also just I meanfor anybody that wasn't in
combat, but I'm not speakingfrom veterans perspectives, but
(36:17):
when you go into these, evenjust go into boot camp, going
into your primary schools, and alot of times that flow state I
think it's forced upon you.
Is there a correlation there?
Jackie Jones (36:27):
just for that connection point, the
familiarity, yeah, I think Iknow how to answer a question,
but yeah, so the first thingthat comes to mind and you can
redefine your question if I'mnot hitting it right but there
would be some people who wouldcome to sessions and they would
(36:49):
be really hard and like traumaprocessing sessions.
In the earlier years of doingart therapy with the military,
there was someone in particularwho one day told me that he
built it into a schedule to cometo art therapy and then go to
the shooting range before hegoes back to work, and at first
I took that as like oh mygoodness, he's like going to get
(37:11):
out some rage.
But then he explained it to melike no, that's how I know to
control my breathing.
Like that is the one place Iknow how to control my breathing
so much that I'm calm andstable.
That was his main way ofemotionally regulating and so
(37:32):
that's really good information,because then I could start
bringing like the yoga andmeditation breathing into
sessions and not have peopleleaving feeling like they needed
to go to the range but alsolike that's a really I mean,
that's a really good, I think,connection point to understand.
Thad David (37:55):
But I know there's a ton of great benefits and
everything you mentioned wasgreat, just tying of a
definition of it, why it'simportant to get into it, and it
just made me think that ifpeople aren't getting into it
and it's so good to find itagain, I'm pretty confident
anybody in the military haddefinitely experienced it while
in while they were in themilitary.
And then if they get out,obvious benefits of doing it for
(38:18):
the benefit of just gettinginto flow state.
But I wonder what that?
Yeah, it's been interesting forme.
The breathing, which I'm excitedto talk to you about more, is
when we get to it, because I'vebeen doing a lot of running and
heart rate training and beingvery intentional with everything
that impacts my heart rate atall times and it's been pretty
fascinating.
So I'm excited to ask you aboutthat in a little bit, but I
(38:39):
don't wanna derail us from wherewe're at and I did ask you
earlier.
I thank you for taking thisside road because it was very
beneficial for me.
I really enjoyed it.
What success stories or story?
What are the benefits?
What have you seen people kindof get on the back end of going
(39:01):
through our therapy?
Jackie Jones (39:05):
So many.
So the first thing that comesto mind is how many people have
said I don't think I'd be hereanymore if it weren't for the
work we did together.
So that's huge.
And so many success stories, somany success stories.
(39:27):
So there's ones of people who,through the art therapy, really
came to art and created a wholesecond career out of it.
People who came into the arttherapy not having made art
before and then wound upexhibiting their pieces
afterwards and connecting withothers in that way.
(39:50):
And then there's successstories that you would never
even know.
Someone went to art therapyLike one example comes to mind
someone who was so ashamed ofsomething that he had
accidentally done that hetotally shut off from his family
(40:15):
and he just in his mind.
There was no way that if hiswife knew he had done this thing
, that she would ever accept himas a person.
And he carried this and it waseating him up and it was really
affecting his whole dynamic athome, with his family and
(40:36):
internally.
And so we spent timeidentifying what that thing was
and then doing work to processthrough it and then integrating
it within him enough that hecould accept himself, enough for
it that he felt ready to talkto his wife about it.
And so then we created, we setup a session where he invited
(41:00):
her into a session so that hecould share this with her.
And then the thing is, when heshared it she said I know
Basically he had told the storywhen he was blackout drunk one
(41:21):
night and that was like a yearprior.
So it was really healing forhim to know that she never left
him.
She didn't view him differentlyafter even knowing that, like
before, he even came to ArtTherapy to work through it.
But also going through the ArtTherapy brought him to the point
(41:43):
that he accepted himself enoughto even be able to bring it up.
And that's just one example.
But there's people who a lot ofMarines in particular are like
so passionate and they reallysaw many Marines would when they
(42:09):
were so upset about things thatlike physiological symptoms
were great.
Not just Marines, but thishappened a lot had people so
angry at themselves that theylike burst their abs from the
inside, or who were constantlypassing out, like just blackout,
(42:34):
passing out in random placeswhen their stress would get high
, or whose heart rates wouldsend them to the ER and they
wouldn't even know what theywere thinking of.
And so for one person who washaving a lot of medical issues,
it really stemmed from the factthat he had over 60 losses
(42:57):
whether they were people whoserved under him who were killed
during combat, or there werepeople who came home and
committed suicide or came homeand died of something medical
later.
But he was carrying over 60losses.
(43:24):
And in the Art Therapy he issomeone who on the first day he
left because he knew it wasgoing to open him up, but he
came back and apologized and weworked together and it was
(43:44):
really deep and we did a lot ofwork together and one of our
culminating projects wasactually going through and
processing all of those it waslike 67 deaths and creating a
piece.
And so he was able to reallyunpack each person, each
experience, how he wanted tointegrate each person forward
(44:06):
and then created this reallybeautiful commemorative artwork
that he has in his home.
And then there's a reduction inmedical issues and a reduction
in all the ways that stress justcan kill you from the inside
out.
So a lot of stories like that.
Thad David (44:31):
That is fascinating, what you just shared.
And circling back to the firstthing that you had talked about
with the gentleman that didn'twant his spouse to know, or she
didn't want to be judged, andaside from the fact that she
already knew, but he wascarrying this burden, I think
that will resonate with severalpeople because a lot of times I
(44:54):
think we carry this burden andwe hold it in because we don't
want to be judged, and it's areally incredible story, and
even more so the fact that shehad already known about it and
he was still carrying it, eventhough she had already known and
then was obviously didn't leavehim.
So that's amazing.
(45:14):
Thank you for sharing all ofthis about art therapy and what
are you doing currently?
I know we talked about quite abit and went down some of that
stuff.
What are you currently doingright now with the flourish
momentum?
Jackie Jones (45:28):
Yeah, so after after Belvoir, I went to Eglene
Air Force Base.
So, okay, the Air Force Base wasthe last branch to have a.
The Air Force was the lastbranch to have a invisible wound
center.
They opened their first one atEglene so I got to go there and
be one of the first staff peoplethere and there I built up
(45:52):
their therapy program.
But also I got to teach yogaand meditation there as well.
So I got to start kind ofco-treating like even within
myself, and there were peoplethat would come for our therapy.
There were people who wouldjust come for yoga or IRS, yoga,
nidra, and there were somepeople that would do both.
(46:14):
And I had found it important tostart to integrate the yoga and
meditation because in the arttherapy people would get so much
insight and self awareness andincrease empathy for self and
(46:36):
others and feel less isolatedand less in shame and guilt and
improve their mood and all thesethings.
But a lot of times they wouldhave the insight and self
awareness but then they'd saythings like I know I should feel
(46:58):
more happy, but I just haven'tfelt happy in so long I don't
even know what that feels likein my body anymore.
And so the yoga wound up atfirst being a place to help
people somatically feel intothese emotions, that they wanted
to start feeling into more,that they just, essentially
(47:19):
their body, forgot how to feelinto them.
But then it became more thanthat.
Especially at Eglin there wereso many I worked with a lot of
grain brates who were likeconstantly still deploying, and
when you're coming to a sessionor two and then going away for
(47:41):
months back into a combatsituation, it's not good for you
to be like opening up.
Closing up it's difficult.
When you're in combat you haveto be really externally focused
and if you get too internallyfocused then it puts you in
danger.
So the yoga wound up being soin that setting.
(48:08):
Art therapy was really good forpeople who were like about to
transition out and had more timeto really focus on their mental
health and kind of processingthrough anything they didn't
want to carry forward theeffects of as they moved into
their post retirement life.
(48:32):
But the people who were stillconstantly in a deployment cycle
yoga was actually reallyhelpful for because they didn't
have to process anything, theydidn't have to open up.
It was just more like a placewhere they could get so present.
Their mind was clean and clearand quiet.
It was a place where they couldpractice meeting parts of
(48:57):
themself that they wereuncomfortable with, but in a
compassionate, accepting way, sothat those things didn't have
to carry the same emotionalreactionary weight that they
would if they didn't meet them.
In the yoga nidra there werepeople who, in one session,
(49:21):
things that used to causenightmares would just become
dreams, and so it wound up beinga really nice way for them to
have therapeutic effects ofhaving less nightmares, being
able to quiet their mind,working through emotions they
were struggling with withouthaving to open up and process
anything.
And then the people yeah, what?
Thad David (49:45):
were you going to say?
Jackie Jones (49:48):
Oh I was just going to say, and then the
people that I could do both with, who were there for a while, I
just got a deeper sense of kindof how to interplay the
modalities and what makes themost sense to give someone when.
And then that led intoeventually going private, so
(50:16):
just quickly to make the bridgeand we can dive into what
aspects that you want to do.
But as a provider, there's alot of you know.
There's compassion, fatigue,there's vicarious trauma,
there's using all your tools onyourself and then also getting
help.
But when you're treating traumalike nine hours a day, every
(50:43):
day of the week, sometimes youstart to lose.
Like you can feel a feeling,you can feel a reaction.
You don't know if it's yours orif it's someone else's, that
you've absorbed or it's justimportant to then have ways to
address your energy as well.
(51:05):
Basically, so when there'sconfusion about like well, I've
worked through this, is this mygrief or is this someone else's?
That kind of thing, I wound upgetting into Reiki and that was
really helpful for clearing thethings that I had already worked
through psychologically, that Ihad already worked through
(51:25):
somatically, and from there Iwent private so I could bring
everything all together.
So I work with people privatelynow and I address the mind, body
, soul and space, and so I canpull in the art therapy when
(51:46):
it's needed.
I can pull in the yoga andmeditation when that's needed.
I can pull in the energy worklike Reiki and theta healing and
sound bowl therapy when that'sneeded.
I can pull in feng shui when weneed to work with the energy of
the environment and the space,and so it's a much more holistic
approach now.
I really loved working in themilitary settings, but even in
(52:09):
the setting where I was broughton to do yoga and meditation too
, it's like all down to numbersand so like if my art therapy
waitlist was longer, sometimesthey would just cancel one of my
yoga sessions and have me doart therapy instead, and I'm
like I understand, but I alsothere's this whole like
(52:29):
treatment plan I have going onwith people and it's anyway.
So now I have more ability toreally bring to each person what
they need at that time.
Thad David (52:41):
And so that's what you're currently doing.
Now is people contact you, theyreach out and you're currently
helping them process throughitems.
Jackie Jones (52:52):
Yeah, so people come and they have some sort of
emotional or physical pain orwhen they have some sort of
block, they just something'sholding them back and they can't
figure it out.
Patients come and they aretired of doing the run around
that's not really giving themanswers.
Have people who are able todecrease the medications they've
(53:17):
been put on by bolstering theirlike holistic ability to deal
with their symptoms.
So people come for a lot ofdifferent reasons but, yeah, I
provide them holistic therapy,which means while one person's
working with me, they mightexperience a variety of actual
(53:39):
modalities.
Thad David (53:41):
And you had mentioned, you know, if
somebody's tired of the runaround, what are the common?
I don't know if triggers is theright word.
What are the common things thatpeople would notice or should
be looking out for?
That it's like you know whatthe I could actually benefit
from this and it's.
I would imagine it's a lot moresubtle, or we think it's subtle
because maybe we're so numb tothese things that are
continually happening.
(54:02):
What are those?
What does it look like insomebody's life where it's like
they should look for it andmaybe consider to come seek some
help?
Jackie Jones (54:10):
Well, I think a lot of people get frustrated
when they feel like they aretreated like a number.
So, number one don't treatpeople like numbers.
They're very much who they are.
One has a really individualizedtreatment plan.
Number two I think people getreally frustrated when they feel
(54:34):
like they go to provider with asymptom and they're just given
a med straight away for it.
And then they get morefrustrated when they wind up
being on one medication that iscausing symptoms.
So then they're put on anothermedication that addresses those
symptoms because there's otherones and they just start kind of
symptom chasing without dealingwith the root.
(54:55):
So with this we can really cometo the root.
Also, a lot of times withmental health I hear a lot of
people get frustrated with theBA because, let's say, someone
(55:16):
has an anger issue and sothey're put in a.
What's offered is a six weekgroup for anger, but they might
not need the psychoeducation,they might not need the group
setting.
They might need somethingthat's going to really go to the
(55:38):
root of their particular anger.
No-transcript.
And a lot of times when peoplego to, when they're assigned a
counselor through the BA, thesessions are short.
Either the duration of sessionsthey're allotted or the
individual sessions they feellike are too short to really get
(56:01):
into the meat of where theyneed to go.
But also, what's nice aboutcoming here is you don't have to
talk if you don't want to.
So I have really transformativesessions that happen when
someone is just laying for anhour and a half receiving sound
(56:22):
bowl therapy and so for themthey just get to come and
completely relax, go into atheta state which it feels like
you're lucid dreaming.
It's really relaxing and thenat the end of it you have
released things that you didn'tknow how to otherwise and real
transformation and shifts happen.
(56:43):
So a lot of the currentfeedback I get, especially after
the energy sessions, is like Idon't know what happened, but
that just doesn't bother meanymore.
Those kinds of shifts justhappen after each session, so
there's a lot more room to divedeep in a different way here.
Thad David (57:03):
And if there are let's say there's 100 veterans
listening at this very moment intime that don't know if they
need to go see, get therapy orget some help or reach out, if
you mentioned, to anger issuesor what are the things that
somebody that's listening thatisn't even considering this,
what are the things that wouldbe signs or symptoms of like you
(57:24):
know what?
If this is happening, you mightwant to consider going to talk
to somebody.
Jackie Jones (57:30):
I would say if your past is driving your future
, Okay.
So, yeah, if anything in yourpast is getting in the way of
you being who you most want tobe or living the life you most
truly want, then this is perfect.
So what I come equipped withyou know the psychology side of
(57:55):
things, and so we can meet andprocess the root, but I also
come equipped with the thingsthat help propel people forward
in a very authentic way, likethe transformations, the shifts
(58:17):
happen internally.
Got it?
So, the thing is, and somethingthat we talk about a lot in yoga
meditation is, the subconsciousdrives your past and your
future is the unconscious.
So if you don't know how to tapinto, like expanding your mind,
(58:43):
then your past is driving yourfuture and that's not how to get
where you really want to be.
It's not your maximum potential.
Thad David (58:52):
So what is the because you mentioned
subconscious and thenunconscious?
What is the difference betweenthe subconscious and unconscious
mind?
Jackie Jones (59:00):
So the subconscious is more like your
conditioning, so things thathave happened to you may affect
your reactions or your triggersor your tendencies, because the
unconscious is more where you'reat, when you're just like fully
present, in a state of witnessand awareness.
(59:25):
It's a deeper wisdom, so, likethe answer is how to get to
where you need to go, are withineach of us.
But when our past experiencesare traumatic or our
conditioning is really prevalentand loud, it's hard to get
(59:49):
beneath that into the deeperinner wisdom that knows how to
get where we need to get.
Thad David (59:57):
So, if I'm hearing this all correctly, the
subconscious, the past, theconditioning is almost a blocker
for getting into thatunconscious, deeper wisdom.
Jackie Jones (01:00:08):
Yeah.
Thad David (01:00:10):
Okay, I very much appreciate that definition that
I asked.
I've always wondered, I'veheard the differences, but I've
never actually stopped and askedsomebody.
So that's great, thank you.
Jackie Jones (01:00:26):
And so do you do work.
Thad David (01:00:27):
What's up?
Jackie Jones (01:00:29):
I was just going to say so concretely in here.
If we need to better understanda subconscious block, we have
the tools for that, like thetherapy, and then, if you've
already processed through a lotof times, people come there like
I've been in therapy for years,like I know what's bothering me
, I know why, but I can't shakeit.
So it's getting beneath thatand being able to drop into
(01:00:56):
these like deeper states ofconsciousness where you can
create more of the life thatyou're seeking.
Thad David (01:01:07):
Which is the goal and that gets back to.
If your past is driving yourfuture, then it might be time to
consider, or it might bebeneficial to go consider
speaking to somebody.
Do you do any virtual work oris it all in person?
If somebody was looking toreach out to you and get some
help, does it have to be locallyor do you devote virtual stuff?
Jackie Jones (01:01:30):
Yeah, I do both.
So I have an office, peoplecome in person, but I also can
do everything virtually.
So I would say it's about halfand half right now.
For a while it's like twothirds virtually, one third in
person.
It's about half and half rightnow, but yeah, I can work with
(01:01:50):
people from anywhere.
Thad David (01:01:53):
And what would somebody do to get in touch with
that?
Do you have one more question Iwant to ask you about, but what
would be the ways for people toget in touch with you?
What's the best way forsomebody to just kind of look
into and see where you're at andpossibly reach out to get some
help?
Jackie Jones (01:02:08):
So lots of ways.
I have a website.
It's flourishmomentumcom.
So you can, on the homepage,click, get my free guided
meditations.
That will give you a free gift.
It will also put you on myemail list.
There's a contact me form.
(01:02:28):
If any of that is not working,my email is Jackie at
flourishmomentumcom.
Thad David (01:02:37):
And.
Jackie Jones (01:02:37):
I'm active on Instagram, flourish underscore
momentum.
You can DM me or learn moreabout what I do there.
I have over 100 videos onYouTube, so that's just
youtubecom slash.
Jackie Jones, it's a lot ofguided meditations and yoga
practices, yeah lots of ways.
Thad David (01:02:57):
Great, I'm jotting those down and those will be
ones that I'll just pretty bitof listening.
I'm going to do my best to linkthose in the bio just so they
can have quick, easy access.
If they're thinking about it,don't hesitate, just go click
something and check it outfurther.
And something that I wanted toask you about and we have talked
(01:03:17):
about it, but what are some ofthe things that you've noticed
that, if it's not alreadysomething that we've talked
about, but just that you've seen, is like somebody getting out
of the military and going off tohopefully be a live, a happy
life I was going to saysuccessful, but I don't know
that that's that what would bethe happy life.
(01:03:39):
What are the things thatthey're doing to live that happy
life?
What are the driving forcesthat send them off in that
direction versus people that arestruggling?
Have you noticed anycorrelations there or things
that the people that are livingthat happier life are doing or
not doing?
Jackie Jones (01:03:54):
Okay, so this might seem like a roundabout
answer, but it's direct, that'smy answer.
There are a lot of people whowould come to me with the
diagnosis of PTSD and they wouldsay I have been treating PTSD
for so long.
I don't know why I'm stillstuck on this.
In the work that we did, Icould help them see the more
(01:04:16):
nuance of what they were dealingwith.
It was more moral injury ormore complicated grief, or more
disenfranchised grief, shame,guilt.
There's so many things that aremore nuanced than PTSD
(01:04:37):
diagnosis and when they werepresented with these other terms
it was really validating forthem because it helped them feel
seen for more of what they wereactually experiencing.
To answer your question, thepart of it is the labels.
(01:04:59):
Part of it is when people aregiven certain labels or given
certain medications, they feellike I guess I just am this
thing for the rest of my life,or I guess I just am this way
for the rest of my life, or Iguess I just have to be
dependent on meds for the restof my life.
But it's not true.
(01:05:21):
Those are all labeling symptomsor dealing with symptoms.
But if you can get to the rootof what's going on, a lot of
times you can completely shiftyour experience and how you live
in the world and feel in theworld.
So I would say number one it'slike not getting fixed and stuck
(01:05:47):
, and things that may havehelped at one point don't
necessarily have to be thereforever.
A lot of times it's reallyunderlying grief and shame and
guilt.
So it's having the avenues tohave people feel safe enough to
(01:06:11):
go where they need to go toreally meet and integrate the
parts of themselves that theymay be doing everything they can
to hide from.
Thad David (01:06:24):
It almost made me think of, with hearing you
describe it and then just kindof reflecting on everything,
that it almost feels like theseitems that are stuck with us
would almost be comparable to, Ithink, back in the day you
could buy a car that had agovernor on it that wouldn't
allow it to go over X speed, andit's almost like going through
(01:06:50):
therapy that it can almostremove that governor and allow
the full potential to go forwardat whatever speed or direction
that you want to go.
Jackie Jones (01:07:00):
Yeah, and I would say a big stuck point at the
root of a lot of it is whenpeople just get to a point where
they feel like they can't trustthemselves.
So they might feel like I don'tknow if I can trust myself in a
relationship, I don't know if Ican trust myself home alone by
myself, I don't know.
(01:07:21):
There's so many ways thatpeople who are walking around
the world seeming very confidentand nothing is, quote unquote,
wrong with them, but thenunderneath it all have a shame
(01:07:43):
that it just really has a holdon them or who has a feeling
like they can't trust themselvesdeep down.
So there's these blocks thatjust happen and have people
stuck in certain patterns thatthey want to break free of but
(01:08:06):
don't know how until they canreach that point and work
through that point.
Thad David (01:08:12):
It makes a ton of sense.
Thank you so much, jackie.
I really appreciate you jumpingon and sharing your experiences
, sharing what you do and, mostimportantly, thanks for all the
work you're doing to help outthe military, to help out
veterans.
It's really, it sounds likeamazing stuff.
So thank you.
Jackie Jones (01:08:30):
Thank you so much for having me here.
I really, really appreciate it.
Thad David (01:08:34):
Yeah, absolutely, it was a wonderful conversation.
There are a lot of people who would come to me
with the diagnosis of PTSD andthey would say I have been
treating PTSD for so long.
I don't know why I'm stillstuck on this.
In the work that we did, Icould help them see the more
nuance of what they were dealingwith.
So whether it was more moralinjury or more complicated grief
(00:22):
or more disenfranchised grief,Shame, Guilt, there's so many
things that are more nuancedthan PTSD diagnosis and when
they were presented with theseother terms it was really
validating for them because ithelped them feel seen for more
(00:45):
of what they were actuallyexperiencing.
To answer your question, thepart of it is the labels.
Part of it is when people aregiven certain labels or given
certain medications.
They feel like I guess I justam this thing for the rest of my
life, or I guess I just am thisway for the rest of my life, or
(01:06):
I guess I just have to bedependent on meds for the rest
of my life.
But it's not true.
Those are all labeling symptomsor dealing with symptoms.
But if you can get to the rootof what's going on, a lot of
times you can completely shiftyour experience and how you live
in the world and feel in theworld.
Thad David (01:25):
My name is Thad David.
I'm a former Marine recon scoutsniper with two deployments to
Iraq.
As a civilian, I've nowfacilitated hundreds of personal
and professional developmenttrainings across the country,
and it struck me recently thatthe same things that help
civilians will also helpveterans succeed in their new
roles as well.
Join me as we define civiliansuccess principles to inspire
(01:46):
veteran victories.
Welcome to another episode.
I'm here today with JackieJones of Flourish Momentum.
How are you doing, jackie?
I'm wonderful.
Jackie Jones (01:55):
How are you doing today?
Thad David (01:58):
Just absolutely incredible.
Thank you so much for jumpingon.
I know you've done a ton ofwork with active duty military,
with veterans, that you're doingnow and I've been very excited
for this conversation and sothanks for taking some time, If
you could.
I know you worked with whatyou're doing now and then also
in the past you worked withactive duty military members.
(02:20):
What did you do?
If you could just share alittle bit?
How did you get into it?
What did you do there?
Jackie Jones (02:25):
Of course, okay.
So first career I was an artteacher and I had goals of
working with at-risk youth.
When I was in school for arteducation, I wound up
volunteering I mean leavingcollege early and volunteering
(02:48):
in Brazil for a while, and whenI was working with homeless kids
and moms in Brazil I felt likeI would have had more of the
impact I would have wanted tohave if I had an art therapy
approach versus an art educationapproach.
Came back, became an artteacher because that was my
(03:10):
track.
I had already it was on my wayto getting my master's in art
education.
But as soon as I started there,I started night school with art
therapy being my goal, and soit would have.
I was on the track to do arttherapy with kids, and when I
(03:33):
was a teacher though an artteacher things would come up in
the kids' artwork and I wasinterested already in the
intersection of art andpsychology, where I was noticing
these flags coming up in theartwork.
But it wasn't my role toprocess them or address them
(03:55):
with the kids.
I had to show the artwork to aguidance counselor and then it
would never circle back to me.
And so, number one, I didn'treally like how I'm the one who
created the container for thesethings to come up, but I wasn't
allowed to be part of theprocessing part.
(04:16):
And then also as a teacher, itwas very clear that when you're
dealing with, let's say,behavioral issues in kids,
there's only so much you can do.
When you realize that eitherthey're learning something from
(04:38):
home or they're reacting tosomething from home, it's also
not your role to become atherapist for the parents.
And also, when I left teachingto go to school for art therapy,
the PTA president at the timetold me aside and said friendly.
(05:00):
But he said no matter what youdo, don't go work with adult men
because they're not going toget this, they're not going to
appreciate what you're bringingto the table.
And I took that as a challenge.
I was like okay, in my mind.
I was like, okay, noted, that'sa challenging population.
I'm probably going to seek itout.
When I was in school for arttherapy, I did my first year
(05:26):
long internship with kids withcancer.
But when you're in school forart therapy, you do a lot of
analyzing your own life and alot of things were coming up for
me that I was dissecting in myown life and that I was
(05:47):
investigating in my own life.
So, number one, I had theexperience of being a teacher
and learning that to addresssome of the issues that were
showing up in the kids, youwould really need to be working
with the parents.
Thad David (06:04):
Can I ask you about that?
Actually, because, just out ofcuriosity, you mentioned flags
with artwork.
What is a flag from a kid'sartwork?
What would that look like?
What did you notice there?
Jackie Jones (06:16):
Yeah, actually, okay, this is a good tie for
where I wound up.
So I had the student inparticular who I better
understood later when I learnedall about art therapy and
psychology and development andthis kind of thing.
But he would be in the middleof a drawing and it would be on
(06:42):
track and then all of a suddenwe'd have like five minutes left
of drawing that day and hewould take the black pastel and
just color over the entire thing.
So he'd go from having apicture that was the assignment
to blackening his whole paper,or he would have like a normal
(07:04):
second grade project, would belike an architecture project,
like design, a dream home orsomething based on these
different principles, andeverything would be going
according to plan.
And then at the last 10 minuteshe would like draw a bomb all
over it or something.
So things like this.
(07:26):
And then, when you can't be partof the processing, you don't
know if it's influence from avideo game or influence from a
bigger brother, or if he hasanger toward people in the
school, and so you things comeup that you you want to better
understand.
Is this what's this kid goingthrough?
(07:48):
What are the emotionsunderlying this?
Because you don't want to readinto something incorrectly, but
you're not.
That's not your role.
It will circle back to when Istarted working with the
military.
Thad David (08:00):
Actually, that's just curious, because I'm
thinking, I'm looking at my kidsartwork Like I have a.
My son drew me a heart within aheart within a heart.
So I was like I wonder how am Igoing to analyze all the
drawings they bring home fromschool?
So I was just, I was justcurious to know what, what that
was.
It's very intriguing thing.
I would have never thought tothink about the psychology
(08:20):
inside of what's taking placewhile kids are drawing, but it
makes makes perfect sense and soyou wanted to be part of the
processing of it and you kind offollow that pathway.
And so where did you end upafter all of this?
Jackie Jones (08:37):
So at the same time also uncovered things about
my family, like an uncle whohad served in Vietnam died from
ODing, and my grandfather, who Inever met because he was died
(09:00):
before I born.
He died before I was born.
He had escaped the Holocaust.
So that's number one.
But number two, he wound upbeing a service number for the
US and later on he died, and hedied in a train track, so they
don't know if it was suicide ormalicious.
(09:21):
And and also I was in arelationship where there was the
other family had justlongstanding prejudices they
couldn't overcome.
I couldn't see me as who I am,as a person, and but it was
(09:42):
rooted in conflict and otherareas of the world and other
times.
And so all these things cametogether and it's like, ok, it's
more than just a challenge togo work with quote unquote adult
men.
There are lots of reasons thatI.
It would have made sense for meto go work with kids, but I
felt more and more guided to gowork with the military in
(10:07):
particular.
And so my second yearinternship when I was in grad
school for therapy wound upbeing at NICO.
So I was at the National TrepidCenter of Excellence at Walter
Reed for a year long internshipproviding our therapy there, and
it was a phenomenal experience.
(10:29):
And while I was there theIntrepid Fallen Heroes Fund had
gotten the money and wasbreaking ground on outpatient
settings.
That would be like the NICO,but the NICO program is only
four weeks.
So especially SEALs would besent there to do TBI, ptsd
(10:54):
assessment and rehab for fourweeks, but then they'd return
and they would have nowhere todo the same sort of modalities
that they had just been exposedto.
So, for example, someone mayhave really been taken to art
therapy, but there is.
I mean you can get a lot infour sessions, like one time a
(11:16):
week for four weeks, but it'smore uncovering the root of
what's going on.
Generally you need longer thanthat to then, once you have the
root of what's going on, processit and integrate the changes
and transform within yourself.
So anyway, then that's just arttherapy.
(11:39):
But you know people wouldreceive acupuncture there and
then have nowhere to keepgetting it or you know that kind
of thing.
So it started breaking ground,yeah.
Thad David (11:50):
No, it makes me think of, like, if I ever have a
gap of time where I stopworking out and kind of get out
of shape, you know have thatmoment where I work out for a
month and then you kind of hitthat crossroads where it's like
you know what I can I can goback to eating cheeseburgers, I
can and then you let yourselfkind of slide, but you're
feeling good, and then what I'mhearing is they come to you for
four weeks, experience some goodstuff, and then they go back to
(12:12):
their units.
Yeah, and then they don't haveit back in the same old same old
without actually having accessto it.
And just for clarity sake, whatis typical?
You mentioned acupuncture.
What is art therapy consist of?
Just so we can kind of followalong what somebody might be
doing for four weeks.
Jackie Jones (12:30):
So what is art therapy consist of?
Well, so this was at the nightgoes, four weeks, and and
they've changed the program abit since then but from there we
would do masks.
The first session, first week,second week was writing, third
(12:51):
week was a montage experience,and then fourth week would be
being able to finish any one ofthose projects if they weren't
done yet, or doing somethingmore individualized for the
person, because the first threewould be groups and then you'd
usually have a one on one, sojust one on one with people.
And then, the year I happened tobe there as an intern, they
(13:16):
were breaking ground on a siteat Fort Belvoir.
So that was going to be thefirst satellite center to open.
That would be set up verysimilarly to the the night go,
except it the point was that itwould be outpatient, so people
(13:37):
could still be living at home,still be working with their unit
every day, but then also beable to incorporate, you know,
longer term treatments along theway.
So I, even though the arttherapy at night go is really
successful, they initiallyweren't going to include the art
(14:01):
therapy at the Fort Belvoirprogram.
So I had written a proposal tothe National Endowment for the
Arts and was granted some pilotfunding, essentially.
And I presented at Belvoir andsaid you know, this is
everything we're doing at nightgo, I should give me a chance to
bring it here.
(14:21):
And they just gave me a roomand they weren't paying for me
at that point.
They just gave me a room andlike three months to try to
embed myself and within thosethree months it was really
everyone took to it very well.
So then I became a contractor,and within that first year they
already created a GS physicianfor me.
(14:43):
From there it grew.
Wow and circling back to thestory about the kid in school
that I was talking about.
When I first came into the FortBelvoir clinic, the reason that
I think people took to it soquickly was they had really
(15:06):
established psychologists,psychiatrists, who, in in
talking to certain clients,would do what they would
normally do.
But then there were a couple ofclients in particular who had
bring in artwork that they weremaking, whether they created a
sculpture at a community ceramiccenter or had drawn an image at
(15:31):
home that they brought in toshare with the psychologist or
psychiatrist, and like one, forexample, one of the first ones
brought to me.
I'll tell the story more simply.
One of my very first days there, psychiatrist came up to me and
he said this is the artwork,that's, that's so, and so is
(15:53):
creating.
Do you think you can work withthis?
It's like, of course, becauseas a art therapist you're
trained to be able to process nomatter what is shown in a piece
of work.
So, whereas another providermay be hesitant to like, analyze
(16:15):
incorrectly a piece of art workof someone blowing their head
off, this is the kind of thingthat would show up, like it
would show up in sessions and inthe processing throughout
therapy.
(16:35):
You know the difference of isthis a call for help because
someone's about them and theirown life, or is this someone
depicting what it feels like tohave a TBI?
Or is this what someone is, howsomeone is expressing how they
feel like they're just explodingemotionally.
(16:57):
So, whereas in schools a lot oftimes you have to shut down
certain symbolism before you canreally get to the root of what
it means, it was really niceworking for the military and
having the ability to not shutdown what came up but to just be
(17:19):
able to authentically processit.
Thad David (17:25):
And so what do you do when you promise me, what
does that processing look like?
I mean, what do you do afterthat point, or what would you?
What did you do in thosesituations?
Jackie Jones (17:34):
Well, it varies across the board, but so I'll
say that in psychology, a lot oftimes they're taught to analyze
artwork, meaning that certainsymbols mean certain things, but
in art therapy we are taughtthat the same symbol could mean
(17:57):
something very different foreveryone who creates it.
So, instead of taking someone'sart and just analyzing it, for
them it's very much a process ofyou're sitting with them while
they're creating.
You're aware of the sequencethat they're creating different
things in.
(18:18):
You're aware of the energy thatthey're creating different
parts of the picture orsculpture or painting, whatever
it is in.
You're aware of, like the orderor the placement you're looking
at at body cues.
You're really observing so manydifferent things.
(18:40):
And then, after the person hascreated what they've created and
it's there on the table numberone, we have a triangle that
occurs where it's no longer likethe dynamic between a therapist
and a client.
It's the therapist and theclient, and the artwork becomes
a third party which helps it beremoved from the client.
(19:01):
So they can not feel likethey're talking about themself
quite so much and they'redescribing the artwork.
And through the describing ofthe artwork you can learn a lot
and help guide them throughreally getting the insight into
(19:22):
why they did things in a certainorder, or like you can really
analyze the dynamics of thingson a page.
So, just as an easy example,someone who made a mask one day
in his very first session wasable to look at it and say, oh
my God, I thought that X thingwas affecting me 5%, but I see
(19:46):
that that one thing is actuallyaffecting me like 95%.
So that thing that I wasn'tdealing with because I didn't
think it really mattered isactually what I should be
dealing with first.
So you get to really helppeople communicate more with
their subconscious and learn thewisdom from what's within.
Thad David (20:10):
So does it?
Does everybody align with this?
I mean, does everybody come inand have great experiences with
it?
And it makes me think of,because I hear of different
types of therapy and I alwayswonder which one is best for,
and I would imagine it varies.
But I'm just, I'm genuinelycurious to know what your
thoughts are of if it's positivefor everybody or if somebody's
(20:30):
dabbling in it.
What thoughts do you have thereif somebody's considering
therapy?
Jackie Jones (20:34):
Well, I think it can work with everyone.
You don't have to be an artist.
So initially people avoid itbecause they think they have to
be an artist, or they avoid itbecause they think it's quote,
unquote, hippie shit and it'snot gonna do anything for them.
So it's less about who it's forand it's more about when it's
for the person.
(20:55):
So, there's some people whowould come into the clinic and
there's less stigma, likethere's the least stigma
associated with, like, your leghurting, right.
So there are people who mightbe afraid of addressing any
mental health concerns butthey'll show up in the clinic
because they need some PT.
So then they'll be in PT for awhile and then their PT will
(21:19):
start to say, hey, jackie, I'mgonna refer so and so to you
because he keeps talking to meabout things in our sessions
that I am not trained to talk,to respond to.
So then they might graduallyget from PT sent to me or they
might not be ready for therapyyet and they might be sent to
(21:39):
occupational therapy or speechtherapy and occupational therapy
and speech therapy is often abrilliant bridge to then come
work with us because, forexample, in speech, they might
be learning all of thetechniques and strategies that
(22:02):
they need to learn in order todeal with their TBI symptoms.
But the speech therapist willget to a point where they're
like I don't know why they'renot integrating them.
They know them, they understandthem.
I don't know why they're notintegrating them, they can't
verbalize it to me.
And then they would get sent toour therapy because it's a
(22:24):
nonverbal therapy and even whenpeople would go to I mean,
there's less stigma associatedwith going to a social worker
than coming to an art therapistso there would be people who'd
come in and they'd be ready tosee a social worker and then
(22:45):
they would hit points that theyjust could not talk about.
And so the thing about trauma isthat when something traumatic
happens, the verbal areas of ourbrain become inhibited and so
they're not online when you'rereally in the depths of
(23:06):
experiencing the trauma.
So it's really hard then, whenyou're taking a primarily verbal
approach, to understand whathappened and why it impacted you
, because the verbal partsweren't there.
So that's where a nonverbaltherapy like art therapy is
(23:27):
really great, because weactually a lot of therapy goes
top down, which means like youknow something's bothering you
and then you understand like theemotions and unconscious
reactions that were beneath it.
But in our therapy at Surveysit's bottom up.
So we create an environmentwhere you just create
(23:50):
intuitively and then, based onwhatever was intuitively created
, things come up from thesubconscious and then you're
able to describe what's on thepage and then you have meaning
and understanding from it.
So a lot of people are able tofind success through these
(24:13):
nonverbal ways of expressing andprocessing that could break
through the blocks that theywere just getting to verbally.
So sometimes it looks likeresistance, like sometimes there
were providers who thought theclients like just weren't
talking, but those clients wouldcome to me and say I didn't
(24:38):
have anything else to say, andso it's important to have all of
these different pieces workingtogether.
Yeah, so it's less about whoit's for and more about when
it's for you.
Thad David (24:56):
And I could see some .
I love that you pointed outthat people say I'm not an
artist.
It's probably something I wouldimagine comes up really quickly
and I'm really intrigued by it.
What would and obviously Iwould encourage anybody that's
seeking it go see a professional, and I'm curious what would be
the first like would youliterally just sit down and
start drawing something?
Is that?
Jackie Jones (25:19):
Well, in our therapy it's funny it kind of
seems like we're doing nothingbut we're actually doing a lot.
So, like in a first session, itwould be hard to take someone
who doesn't consider themself anartist at all and just give
them a blank piece of paper andsay draw something, because it's
(25:42):
kind of like the container ofpossibilities is too wide and
the person would shut down ornot know where to start.
And so we think a lot about theright amount of a container to
provide someone and then theright directive so that they
(26:04):
have ample opportunity forgenuine self-expression within
that container.
So yeah, it looks verydifferent in every session, but
there's a method to the madness.
There's a reason that will givea mask versus a piece of paper
versus a canvas, and there's areason we'll give colored
(26:25):
pencils versus charcoal, versusmagazines to cut up.
Thad David (26:32):
Sensing a Marine Corps eating crayons joke
somewhere that some of youlistening is probably gonna be.
That's why you didn't mentionthose, because us Marines are
just gonna eat them.
You mentioned the, and it'ssomething that I talk about in
other areas, but so when thecontainer of possibilities too
large, people shut down.
Jackie Jones (26:52):
Yes, yeah.
Thad David (26:54):
Why is that?
Jackie Jones (26:57):
I think because there's time for them to get in
their head.
Thad David (27:00):
Okay.
Jackie Jones (27:01):
I think there's time for you to get in your head
and you put in your ownself-judgment before you can let
your intuition start to guideyou.
So we give just enoughcontainer that the direction is
there, but there's also freedomto self-express.
Thad David (27:19):
There's a sculptor and I forget her name.
I'm gonna say Shen and King,but it's a favorite quote of
mine.
Process freezes us from thepoverty of our own intentions,
and she just mentions that onceyou have your median like she's
a sculptor.
But if you're just thinkingabout the artwork, you just, in
(27:39):
the very same light, you don'treally know.
But once you say you know what,I'm gonna pick this medium, I'm
gonna do this on this piece,then your freedom starts and the
creativity starts to come outbecause you've dialed in of
where you're going with it.
And that's what I thought ofwhen you were talking about the
containers.
Too big is just her quote.
I think it's really cool how itlines up.
So I'm curious to ask what wasthe?
(28:01):
Because I'm sure you've seen alot of different things.
So the biggest I don't know ifa better word to call it, but
success story or biggest benefitsomebody's got from it that you
saw as much as you can share.
Obviously, these are privatesessions, but I'd love to know
what are some of the good thingsthat you've seen come out of it
, or specific stories.
Jackie Jones (28:23):
Yeah Well, first can I address something you said
about the quote that thatartist said Please, yeah, I
would love to.
What that made me think of wasbecause my background I was an
artist and I was an art teacherand that whole process, what
(28:44):
people are used to, is whereit's product oriented.
So you have a goal in mind, youcreate your thumbnail sketches,
you think about how you'regonna make it happen and then
you actualize it.
And that does play into arttherapy too, but generally art
(29:04):
therapy is process over product.
So you try to get the goal isto get people, get people
creating where it's more processoriented.
They're using a color in thatmoment because that's what feels
right to use in that moment.
They create a certain image, acertain way, because that's what
(29:26):
they're guided to create inthat moment, and then the
product comes and then you canexplore the product to see
everything that it meant to you.
But it winds up being so.
This circles back to the lastquestion, because I think a lot
of people understand art asbeing product oriented.
(29:48):
So if you just give someone ontheir first day a blank piece of
paper, there's this pressurethat they need to be
Michelangelo or they're gonna bea laughing stock in the room.
But if you can really bring itback to actually just see this
as problem solving justliterally grab the first color
that's speaking to you, create amark in a way that's most
(30:13):
speaking to you right now, andthe product will come.
And then, once someone is onthat path of creating
intuitively, they get in thatflow state and their inner
wisdom can really come up on thepage before they have a chance
to shut it down.
So and it was really freeingfor me actually to it was hard
(30:38):
at first, honestly, going frombeing an art teacher to becoming
an art therapist, because I hadall these natural ways of being
that were more ed appropriate.
I had to learn how to rein thatin and like save the art ed for
later when it would be helpfulfor a person and not shut down
(30:59):
their authentic self-expression.
So, yeah, so I just wanted torespond to that.
Thad David (31:08):
Yeah, no, I'm glad that you did pause and you
mentioned something that kind ofgave me a thought of just
getting into flow state, and Ithink that's something that I've
heard time and time again ofvarious things that therapy or
just things that can help people, help veterans, flow state
seems to be a common thread ofsomehow getting into that flow
(31:30):
state.
And why is that so important toget into that flow state?
Jackie Jones (31:37):
Oh, so many reasons.
Number one it helps you quietyour mind.
So, going this weekend I'll bedoing the next week at Outdoor
Odyssey, which I'm reallyexcited about.
I'm gonna be bringing Zentanglethere.
It's a mindfulness drawingtechnique and this is what I've
(31:57):
been contracted by VA's to offer, as well as classes.
A reason it's so good isbecause it's doing art therapy
without the processing.
It's teaching people how to getinto flow state without
processing things, so they'requieting their mind when they
(32:18):
didn't think they could quiet it.
Time flies by in ways that theyhaven't experienced.
If they're dealing with pain,the pain goes away.
If they're dealing with anxiety, the anxiety goes away and it's
also a boost of dopamine.
So when people feel like theyhave a hard time accessing that,
(32:43):
naturally this is a way thatyou can do that.
So chemically it's really goodfor you.
It makes people feel happy andconnected and joy, a lot of
feelings that they thought wereturned off in them just by
getting into flow state, just bybeing fully present and knowing
that, if they can get totallyfully present, the pain that's
(33:05):
usually nagging them subsides,or the thoughts that are usually
nagging them subside.
Thad David (33:14):
That makes just a ton of sense.
I'm so happy we took thislittle journey down into, into
flow state and different things,because and how would you best?
Just for anybody listening to?
I don't know that I've everdefined it, it's always just a
feeling that I've never put adefinition into.
But just for anybody listeningthat might not have defined it,
do you have a definition forflow state, of what that
(33:35):
actually means to you?
Jackie Jones (33:38):
They're to me, yeah, so there is a definition?
Yeah, there's a definition.
It's a coined term but itbasically embossed it.
It means when you're soimmersed in something that
you're basically you're soimmersed in something, your
(33:58):
physical needs fall away.
So, like you forget you'rehungry, you forget you're
thirsty, you're not reallythinking, you're just totally
immersed and one pointed focusedon something.
And it comes with, yeah, beingfully present.
For me, how I would get deeperin that is how, so, as an art.
(34:22):
So I got into art when I wasborn, I mean since I've been
born and I got into yoga andmeditation in my later twenties
and so the whole time that artwas my thing.
And even working in the military, I'd have chaplains or I'd have
bosses telling me like, oh,you're not doing spiritual
(34:44):
things, oh, you're not.
Like art, therapy is notspiritual.
I'm like people are havingspiritual experiences in here
and it is my spiritual where Igo to tap into that and to be
connected to something greaterthan me and to tap into that
inner knowing that I can't knowjust from my own, like busy mind
(35:05):
, and so it's really so.
I think like flow state isyou're doing an activity that
gets you so immersed, you'refully present and the same, and
you wind up with like atranscendent experience where
(35:26):
you tapped into creativity thatyou wouldn't have been able to
otherwise, or you tap into waysto problem solve, or your
awareness grows in ways that youwouldn't have been able to if
you didn't do something toexpand yourself.
So for me it's kind of like thebridge between like an activity
(35:47):
that a waking state person isdoing to get so fully present
and immersed that they wind upexpanded in some way.
Thad David (35:55):
Right on.
Do you think there's acorrelation?
Because it made me think of inthe military and thinking of
being in combat is 100%, I meanyou're getting into flow.
It'd be hard to not get intosome sort of a flow state being
in combat but also just I meanfor anybody that wasn't in
combat, but I'm not speakingfrom veterans perspectives, but
(36:17):
when you go into these, evenjust go into boot camp, going
into your primary schools, and alot of times that flow state I
think it's forced upon you.
Is there a correlation there?
Jackie Jones (36:27):
just for that connection point, the
familiarity, yeah, I think Iknow how to answer a question,
but yeah, so the first thingthat comes to mind and you can
redefine your question if I'mnot hitting it right but there
would be some people who wouldcome to sessions and they would
(36:49):
be really hard and like traumaprocessing sessions.
In the earlier years of doingart therapy with the military,
there was someone in particularwho one day told me that he
built it into a schedule to cometo art therapy and then go to
the shooting range before hegoes back to work, and at first
I took that as like oh mygoodness, he's like going to get
(37:11):
out some rage.
But then he explained it to melike no, that's how I know to
control my breathing.
Like that is the one place Iknow how to control my breathing
so much that I'm calm andstable.
That was his main way ofemotionally regulating and so
(37:32):
that's really good information,because then I could start
bringing like the yoga andmeditation breathing into
sessions and not have peopleleaving feeling like they needed
to go to the range but alsolike that's a really I mean,
that's a really good, I think,connection point to understand.
Thad David (37:55):
But I know there's a ton of great benefits and
everything you mentioned wasgreat, just tying of a
definition of it, why it'simportant to get into it, and it
just made me think that ifpeople aren't getting into it
and it's so good to find itagain, I'm pretty confident
anybody in the military haddefinitely experienced it while
in while they were in themilitary.
And then if they get out,obvious benefits of doing it for
(38:18):
the benefit of just gettinginto flow state.
But I wonder what that?
Yeah, it's been interesting forme.
The breathing, which I'm excitedto talk to you about more, is
when we get to it, because I'vebeen doing a lot of running and
heart rate training and beingvery intentional with everything
that impacts my heart rate atall times and it's been pretty
fascinating.
So I'm excited to ask you aboutthat in a little bit, but I
(38:39):
don't wanna derail us from wherewe're at and I did ask you
earlier.
I thank you for taking thisside road because it was very
beneficial for me.
I really enjoyed it.
What success stories or story?
What are the benefits?
What have you seen people kindof get on the back end of going
(39:01):
through our therapy?
Jackie Jones (39:05):
So many.
So the first thing that comesto mind is how many people have
said I don't think I'd be hereanymore if it weren't for the
work we did together.
So that's huge.
And so many success stories, somany success stories.
(39:27):
So there's ones of people who,through the art therapy, really
came to art and created a wholesecond career out of it.
People who came into the arttherapy not having made art
before and then wound upexhibiting their pieces
afterwards and connecting withothers in that way.
(39:50):
And then there's successstories that you would never
even know.
Someone went to art therapyLike one example comes to mind
someone who was so ashamed ofsomething that he had
accidentally done that hetotally shut off from his family
(40:15):
and he just in his mind.
There was no way that if hiswife knew he had done this thing
, that she would ever accept himas a person.
And he carried this and it waseating him up and it was really
affecting his whole dynamic athome, with his family and
(40:36):
internally.
And so we spent timeidentifying what that thing was
and then doing work to processthrough it and then integrating
it within him enough that hecould accept himself, enough for
it that he felt ready to talkto his wife about it.
And so then we created, we setup a session where he invited
(41:00):
her into a session so that hecould share this with her.
And then the thing is, when heshared it she said I know
Basically he had told the storywhen he was blackout drunk one
(41:21):
night and that was like a yearprior.
So it was really healing forhim to know that she never left
him.
She didn't view him differentlyafter even knowing that, like
before, he even came to ArtTherapy to work through it.
But also going through the ArtTherapy brought him to the point
(41:43):
that he accepted himself enoughto even be able to bring it up.
And that's just one example.
But there's people who a lot ofMarines in particular are like
so passionate and they reallysaw many Marines would when they
(42:09):
were so upset about things thatlike physiological symptoms
were great.
Not just Marines, but thishappened a lot had people so
angry at themselves that theylike burst their abs from the
inside, or who were constantlypassing out, like just blackout,
(42:34):
passing out in random placeswhen their stress would get high
, or whose heart rates wouldsend them to the ER and they
wouldn't even know what theywere thinking of.
And so for one person who washaving a lot of medical issues,
it really stemmed from the factthat he had over 60 losses
(42:57):
whether they were people whoserved under him who were killed
during combat, or there werepeople who came home and
committed suicide or came homeand died of something medical
later.
But he was carrying over 60losses.
(43:24):
And in the Art Therapy he issomeone who on the first day he
left because he knew it wasgoing to open him up, but he
came back and apologized and weworked together and it was
(43:44):
really deep and we did a lot ofwork together and one of our
culminating projects wasactually going through and
processing all of those it waslike 67 deaths and creating a
piece.
And so he was able to reallyunpack each person, each
experience, how he wanted tointegrate each person forward
(44:06):
and then created this reallybeautiful commemorative artwork
that he has in his home.
And then there's a reduction inmedical issues and a reduction
in all the ways that stress justcan kill you from the inside
out.
So a lot of stories like that.
Thad David (44:31):
That is fascinating, what you just shared.
And circling back to the firstthing that you had talked about
with the gentleman that didn'twant his spouse to know, or she
didn't want to be judged, andaside from the fact that she
already knew, but he wascarrying this burden, I think
that will resonate with severalpeople because a lot of times I
(44:54):
think we carry this burden andwe hold it in because we don't
want to be judged, and it's areally incredible story, and
even more so the fact that shehad already known about it and
he was still carrying it, eventhough she had already known and
then was obviously didn't leavehim.
So that's amazing.
(45:14):
Thank you for sharing all ofthis about art therapy and what
are you doing currently?
I know we talked about quite abit and went down some of that
stuff.
What are you currently doingright now with the flourish
momentum?
Jackie Jones (45:28):
Yeah, so after after Belvoir, I went to Eglene
Air Force Base.
So, okay, the Air Force Base wasthe last branch to have a.
The Air Force was the lastbranch to have a invisible wound
center.
They opened their first one atEglene so I got to go there and
be one of the first staff peoplethere and there I built up
(45:52):
their therapy program.
But also I got to teach yogaand meditation there as well.
So I got to start kind ofco-treating like even within
myself, and there were peoplethat would come for our therapy.
There were people who wouldjust come for yoga or IRS, yoga,
nidra, and there were somepeople that would do both.
(46:14):
And I had found it important tostart to integrate the yoga and
meditation because in the arttherapy people would get so much
insight and self awareness andincrease empathy for self and
(46:36):
others and feel less isolatedand less in shame and guilt and
improve their mood and all thesethings.
But a lot of times they wouldhave the insight and self
awareness but then they'd saythings like I know I should feel
(46:58):
more happy, but I just haven'tfelt happy in so long I don't
even know what that feels likein my body anymore.
And so the yoga wound up atfirst being a place to help
people somatically feel intothese emotions, that they wanted
to start feeling into more,that they just, essentially
(47:19):
their body, forgot how to feelinto them.
But then it became more thanthat.
Especially at Eglin there wereso many I worked with a lot of
grain brates who were likeconstantly still deploying, and
when you're coming to a sessionor two and then going away for
(47:41):
months back into a combatsituation, it's not good for you
to be like opening up.
Closing up it's difficult.
When you're in combat you haveto be really externally focused
and if you get too internallyfocused then it puts you in
danger.
So the yoga wound up being soin that setting.
(48:08):
Art therapy was really good forpeople who were like about to
transition out and had more timeto really focus on their mental
health and kind of processingthrough anything they didn't
want to carry forward theeffects of as they moved into
their post retirement life.
(48:32):
But the people who were stillconstantly in a deployment cycle
yoga was actually reallyhelpful for because they didn't
have to process anything, theydidn't have to open up.
It was just more like a placewhere they could get so present.
Their mind was clean and clearand quiet.
It was a place where they couldpractice meeting parts of
(48:57):
themself that they wereuncomfortable with, but in a
compassionate, accepting way, sothat those things didn't have
to carry the same emotionalreactionary weight that they
would if they didn't meet them.
In the yoga nidra there werepeople who, in one session,
(49:21):
things that used to causenightmares would just become
dreams, and so it wound up beinga really nice way for them to
have therapeutic effects ofhaving less nightmares, being
able to quiet their mind,working through emotions they
were struggling with withouthaving to open up and process
anything.
And then the people yeah, what?
Thad David (49:45):
were you going to say?
Jackie Jones (49:48):
Oh I was just going to say, and then the
people that I could do both with, who were there for a while, I
just got a deeper sense of kindof how to interplay the
modalities and what makes themost sense to give someone when.
And then that led intoeventually going private, so
(50:16):
just quickly to make the bridgeand we can dive into what
aspects that you want to do.
But as a provider, there's alot of you know.
There's compassion, fatigue,there's vicarious trauma,
there's using all your tools onyourself and then also getting
help.
But when you're treating traumalike nine hours a day, every
(50:43):
day of the week, sometimes youstart to lose.
Like you can feel a feeling,you can feel a reaction.
You don't know if it's yours orif it's someone else's, that
you've absorbed or it's justimportant to then have ways to
address your energy as well.
(51:05):
Basically, so when there'sconfusion about like well, I've
worked through this, is this mygrief or is this someone else's?
That kind of thing, I wound upgetting into Reiki and that was
really helpful for clearing thethings that I had already worked
through psychologically, that Ihad already worked through
(51:25):
somatically, and from there Iwent private so I could bring
everything all together.
So I work with people privatelynow and I address the mind, body
, soul and space, and so I canpull in the art therapy when
(51:46):
it's needed.
I can pull in the yoga andmeditation when that's needed.
I can pull in the energy worklike Reiki and theta healing and
sound bowl therapy when that'sneeded.
I can pull in feng shui when weneed to work with the energy of
the environment and the space,and so it's a much more holistic
approach now.
I really loved working in themilitary settings, but even in
(52:09):
the setting where I was broughton to do yoga and meditation too
, it's like all down to numbersand so like if my art therapy
waitlist was longer, sometimesthey would just cancel one of my
yoga sessions and have me doart therapy instead, and I'm
like I understand, but I alsothere's this whole like
(52:29):
treatment plan I have going onwith people and it's anyway.
So now I have more ability toreally bring to each person what
they need at that time.
Thad David (52:41):
And so that's what you're currently doing.
Now is people contact you, theyreach out and you're currently
helping them process throughitems.
Jackie Jones (52:52):
Yeah, so people come and they have some sort of
emotional or physical pain orwhen they have some sort of
block, they just something'sholding them back and they can't
figure it out.
Patients come and they aretired of doing the run around
that's not really giving themanswers.
Have people who are able todecrease the medications they've
(53:17):
been put on by bolstering theirlike holistic ability to deal
with their symptoms.
So people come for a lot ofdifferent reasons but, yeah, I
provide them holistic therapy,which means while one person's
working with me, they mightexperience a variety of actual
(53:39):
modalities.
Thad David (53:41):
And you had mentioned, you know, if
somebody's tired of the runaround, what are the common?
I don't know if triggers is theright word.
What are the common things thatpeople would notice or should
be looking out for?
That it's like you know whatthe I could actually benefit
from this and it's.
I would imagine it's a lot moresubtle, or we think it's subtle
because maybe we're so numb tothese things that are
continually happening.
(54:02):
What are those?
What does it look like insomebody's life where it's like
they should look for it andmaybe consider to come seek some
help?
Jackie Jones (54:10):
Well, I think a lot of people get frustrated
when they feel like they aretreated like a number.
So, number one don't treatpeople like numbers.
They're very much who they are.
One has a really individualizedtreatment plan.
Number two I think people getreally frustrated when they feel
(54:34):
like they go to provider with asymptom and they're just given
a med straight away for it.
And then they get morefrustrated when they wind up
being on one medication that iscausing symptoms.
So then they're put on anothermedication that addresses those
symptoms because there's otherones and they just start kind of
symptom chasing without dealingwith the root.
(54:55):
So with this we can really cometo the root.
Also, a lot of times withmental health I hear a lot of
people get frustrated with theBA because, let's say, someone
(55:16):
has an anger issue and sothey're put in a.
What's offered is a six weekgroup for anger, but they might
not need the psychoeducation,they might not need the group
setting.
They might need somethingthat's going to really go to the
(55:38):
root of their particular anger.
No-transcript.
And a lot of times when peoplego to, when they're assigned a
counselor through the BA, thesessions are short.
Either the duration of sessionsthey're allotted or the
individual sessions they feellike are too short to really get
(56:01):
into the meat of where theyneed to go.
But also, what's nice aboutcoming here is you don't have to
talk if you don't want to.
So I have really transformativesessions that happen when
someone is just laying for anhour and a half receiving sound
(56:22):
bowl therapy and so for themthey just get to come and
completely relax, go into atheta state which it feels like
you're lucid dreaming.
It's really relaxing and thenat the end of it you have
released things that you didn'tknow how to otherwise and real
transformation and shifts happen.
(56:43):
So a lot of the currentfeedback I get, especially after
the energy sessions, is like Idon't know what happened, but
that just doesn't bother meanymore.
Those kinds of shifts justhappen after each session, so
there's a lot more room to divedeep in a different way here.
Thad David (57:03):
And if there are let's say there's 100 veterans
listening at this very moment intime that don't know if they
need to go see, get therapy orget some help or reach out, if
you mentioned, to anger issuesor what are the things that
somebody that's listening thatisn't even considering this,
what are the things that wouldbe signs or symptoms of like you
(57:24):
know what?
If this is happening, you mightwant to consider going to talk
to somebody.
Jackie Jones (57:30):
I would say if your past is driving your future
, Okay.
So, yeah, if anything in yourpast is getting in the way of
you being who you most want tobe or living the life you most
truly want, then this is perfect.
So what I come equipped withyou know the psychology side of
(57:55):
things, and so we can meet andprocess the root, but I also
come equipped with the thingsthat help propel people forward
in a very authentic way, likethe transformations, the shifts
(58:17):
happen internally.
Got it?
So, the thing is, and somethingthat we talk about a lot in yoga
meditation is, the subconsciousdrives your past and your
future is the unconscious.
So if you don't know how to tapinto, like expanding your mind,
(58:43):
then your past is driving yourfuture and that's not how to get
where you really want to be.
It's not your maximum potential.
Thad David (58:52):
So what is the because you mentioned
subconscious and thenunconscious?
What is the difference betweenthe subconscious and unconscious
mind?
Jackie Jones (59:00):
So the subconscious is more like your
conditioning, so things thathave happened to you may affect
your reactions or your triggersor your tendencies, because the
unconscious is more where you'reat, when you're just like fully
present, in a state of witnessand awareness.
(59:25):
It's a deeper wisdom, so, likethe answer is how to get to
where you need to go, are withineach of us.
But when our past experiencesare traumatic or our
conditioning is really prevalentand loud, it's hard to get
(59:49):
beneath that into the deeperinner wisdom that knows how to
get where we need to get.
Thad David (59:57):
So, if I'm hearing this all correctly, the
subconscious, the past, theconditioning is almost a blocker
for getting into thatunconscious, deeper wisdom.
Jackie Jones (01:00:08):
Yeah.
Thad David (01:00:10):
Okay, I very much appreciate that definition that
I asked.
I've always wondered, I'veheard the differences, but I've
never actually stopped and askedsomebody.
So that's great, thank you.
Jackie Jones (01:00:26):
And so do you do work.
Thad David (01:00:27):
What's up?
Jackie Jones (01:00:29):
I was just going to say so concretely in here.
If we need to better understanda subconscious block, we have
the tools for that, like thetherapy, and then, if you've
already processed through a lotof times, people come there like
I've been in therapy for years,like I know what's bothering me
, I know why, but I can't shakeit.
So it's getting beneath thatand being able to drop into
(01:00:56):
these like deeper states ofconsciousness where you can
create more of the life thatyou're seeking.
Thad David (01:01:07):
Which is the goal and that gets back to.
If your past is driving yourfuture, then it might be time to
consider, or it might bebeneficial to go consider
speaking to somebody.
Do you do any virtual work oris it all in person?
If somebody was looking toreach out to you and get some
help, does it have to be locallyor do you devote virtual stuff?
Jackie Jones (01:01:30):
Yeah, I do both.
So I have an office, peoplecome in person, but I also can
do everything virtually.
So I would say it's about halfand half right now.
For a while it's like twothirds virtually, one third in
person.
It's about half and half rightnow, but yeah, I can work with
(01:01:50):
people from anywhere.
Thad David (01:01:53):
And what would somebody do to get in touch with
that?
Do you have one more question Iwant to ask you about, but what
would be the ways for people toget in touch with you?
What's the best way forsomebody to just kind of look
into and see where you're at andpossibly reach out to get some
help?
Jackie Jones (01:02:08):
So lots of ways.
I have a website.
It's flourishmomentumcom.
So you can, on the homepage,click, get my free guided
meditations.
That will give you a free gift.
It will also put you on myemail list.
There's a contact me form.
(01:02:28):
If any of that is not working,my email is Jackie at
flourishmomentumcom.
Thad David (01:02:37):
And.
Jackie Jones (01:02:37):
I'm active on Instagram, flourish underscore
momentum.
You can DM me or learn moreabout what I do there.
I have over 100 videos onYouTube, so that's just
youtubecom slash.
Jackie Jones, it's a lot ofguided meditations and yoga
practices, yeah lots of ways.
Thad David (01:02:57):
Great, I'm jotting those down and those will be
ones that I'll just pretty bitof listening.
I'm going to do my best to linkthose in the bio just so they
can have quick, easy access.
If they're thinking about it,don't hesitate, just go click
something and check it outfurther.
And something that I wanted toask you about and we have talked
(01:03:17):
about it, but what are some ofthe things that you've noticed
that, if it's not alreadysomething that we've talked
about, but just that you've seen, is like somebody getting out
of the military and going off tohopefully be a live, a happy
life I was going to saysuccessful, but I don't know
that that's that what would bethe happy life.
(01:03:39):
What are the things thatthey're doing to live that happy
life?
What are the driving forcesthat send them off in that
direction versus people that arestruggling?
Have you noticed anycorrelations there or things
that the people that are livingthat happier life are doing or
not doing?
Jackie Jones (01:03:54):
Okay, so this might seem like a roundabout
answer, but it's direct, that'smy answer.
There are a lot of people whowould come to me with the
diagnosis of PTSD and they wouldsay I have been treating PTSD
for so long.
I don't know why I'm stillstuck on this.
In the work that we did, Icould help them see the more
(01:04:16):
nuance of what they were dealingwith.
It was more moral injury ormore complicated grief, or more
disenfranchised grief, shame,guilt.
There's so many things that aremore nuanced than PTSD
(01:04:37):
diagnosis and when they werepresented with these other terms
it was really validating forthem because it helped them feel
seen for more of what they wereactually experiencing.
To answer your question, thepart of it is the labels.
(01:04:59):
Part of it is when people aregiven certain labels or given
certain medications, they feellike I guess I just am this
thing for the rest of my life,or I guess I just am this way
for the rest of my life, or Iguess I just have to be
dependent on meds for the restof my life.
But it's not true.
(01:05:21):
Those are all labeling symptomsor dealing with symptoms.
But if you can get to the rootof what's going on, a lot of
times you can completely shiftyour experience and how you live
in the world and feel in theworld.
So I would say number one it'slike not getting fixed and stuck
(01:05:47):
, and things that may havehelped at one point don't
necessarily have to be thereforever.
A lot of times it's reallyunderlying grief and shame and
guilt.
So it's having the avenues tohave people feel safe enough to
(01:06:11):
go where they need to go toreally meet and integrate the
parts of themselves that theymay be doing everything they can
to hide from.
Thad David (01:06:24):
It almost made me think of, with hearing you
describe it and then just kindof reflecting on everything,
that it almost feels like theseitems that are stuck with us
would almost be comparable to, Ithink, back in the day you
could buy a car that had agovernor on it that wouldn't
allow it to go over X speed, andit's almost like going through
(01:06:50):
therapy that it can almostremove that governor and allow
the full potential to go forwardat whatever speed or direction
that you want to go.
Jackie Jones (01:07:00):
Yeah, and I would say a big stuck point at the
root of a lot of it is whenpeople just get to a point where
they feel like they can't trustthemselves.
So they might feel like I don'tknow if I can trust myself in a
relationship, I don't know if Ican trust myself home alone by
myself, I don't know.
(01:07:21):
There's so many ways thatpeople who are walking around
the world seeming very confidentand nothing is, quote unquote,
wrong with them, but thenunderneath it all have a shame
(01:07:43):
that it just really has a holdon them or who has a feeling
like they can't trust themselvesdeep down.
So there's these blocks thatjust happen and have people
stuck in certain patterns thatthey want to break free of but
(01:08:06):
don't know how until they canreach that point and work
through that point.
Thad David (01:08:12):
It makes a ton of sense.
Thank you so much, jackie.
I really appreciate you jumpingon and sharing your experiences
, sharing what you do and, mostimportantly, thanks for all the
work you're doing to help outthe military, to help out
veterans.
It's really, it sounds likeamazing stuff.
So thank you.
Jackie Jones (01:08:30):
Thank you so much for having me here.
I really, really appreciate it.
Thad David (01:08:34):
Yeah, absolutely, it was a wonderful conversation.
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