|int| Forging the Path to Healing: Sue Johnson's Journey from Vietnam to Veterans' Advocate | Ep 94 - On Your Lead

Episode Transcript
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Sue Johnson (00:00):
I like your PTS right.
You don't know what your PTS isall about, you don't like?
I had a good friend of mine whowas killed in Desert Storm and
a couple of ones that wereinjured because of his.
He was, you know, and I lookedback and I was very angry with
Phillip for a long time becausehe did injure other people,
because he was naive and dumband didn't follow orders.

(00:20):
So, but I was angry and it tookme forever to figure out how to
forgive him.

Thad David (00:28):
My name is Thad David.
I'm a former Marine recon scoutsniper with two deployments to
Iraq.
As a civilian, I've nowfacilitated hundreds of personal
and professional developmenttrainings across the country,
and it struck me recently thatthe same things that help
civilians will also helpveterans succeed in their new
roles as well.
Join me as we define civiliansuccess principles to inspire

(00:49):
veteran victories.
Welcome to another episode.
I'm here today with Sue Johnson.
How are you doing, Sue?

Doing great, doing great.
Nice and chilly morning inColorado.

Thad David (01:00):
Yeah, it's a.
It is a chilly morning.
It really dropped down.
It seemed like last week we hadsome warm days, but it dropped
down pretty substantially.

Unfortunately.
Yes, yeah, that's okay.
It's what you get when you livein Colorado.

Thad David (01:16):
Yeah, well, and I know, sue, we actually met at
the airport kind of randomly.
I know that I saw that you hada team Rubicon shirt on and I
walked over and kind ofintroduced myself, and that was
probably six months ago, whichled to this conversation here.

Yeah, I think we were.
Weren't we coming from Florida?
I think you're on the sameflight, I don't.
I thought it was Florida.
It could have been somethingelse.

Thad David (01:41):
Yeah, I don't remember which flight it was,
but I remember seeing you on theairplane and then I was like
you know what she looks like, areally cool person that I need
to connect with, and I rememberfinding you a baggage claim and
just saying, saying what's up,and that brought us to yours.
I appreciate you taking sometime.
And just so everybody knows alittle bit about you, you were

(02:01):
retired medically from the Army.
You were in for 13 years.
Is that correct?

Yes.

Thad David (02:07):
What did you do in the Army?
When were you in?

I was in 1988 to 2000.
I had originally I was incollege.
At that point I was like rightbelow age of 18.
And I decided to follow in thefootsteps of my father, who was
a Vietnam veteran.
I was adopted through and it'skind of like the story of why I
joined is because I had familymembers that were in the

(02:30):
military and then my dad was inVietnam and I was adopted from
Vietnam.
So it gave me a sense of okay,I want to give back to a country
that gave me my life, to beable to start fresh.
I was a baby when I came over,so I don't remember any of it,
and I decided that I wanted togive back to a country that you

(02:52):
know I was lucky to be able tolive in for most of my life.

Thad David (02:59):
That's incredible.
Have you gone back to Vietnamto visit at all?
Is that something you do?

I have.
I went back once by there was alady, her name was.
She was a nun from Australia.
Her name was Rosemary Taylor.
She has since passed away, butI went on a it's called the
Motherland tours with a group ofnuns who worked with the
orphanages and helped get thebabies out, the orphans out of

(03:27):
Vietnam, and so they, basically,when I went to Thailand the
year before, rosemary said youmust go back to Vietnam and I
had met her by a real weirdfluke, like she was happened to
be just in Thailand at thatmoment because her sister had

(03:47):
gotten into a really bad carwreck in Australia, so she had
traveled back for a minute.
I got blessed by a monk.
I know this is a weird story,but it that's how it evolved to
where I finally got to meet thewoman that really saved, you
know, thousands and thousands oforphans' lives in Vietnam and a
war to our country.
And she continued to do soafter, even though she probably

(04:10):
could have been, you know,killed and sent to the camps
after the fall of Saigon.
But she said you need to goback to Vietnam and understand
the history of where you camefrom and stuff like that.
So I did, I followed her advice.
I got to meet sister Mary NellRuth, who was the she's

(04:32):
phenomenal woman too.
She was a pilot with AmericanAirlines back in the day but was
never able to fly because shewas female, but she got her
pilot's license.
So it's interesting that youwere talking about how your wife
was getting her pilot license,because that kind of like it's
so interesting how far womenhave come in in just in history
in itself, being able to do jobsthat are male dominated and put

(04:55):
air quotes there.
But I saw that's why I wentback to Vietnam and I learned a
lot about myself.
You know, I was like, oh, thisis where I came from and it was.
It was really cool, like areally great experience.
I gave Rosemary Taylor myMatoria service medal, which I
got after I got out of themilitary.

(05:16):
Took me six months to get it,but you know, you know all the
paperwork trying to get allthose awards signed before you
get out, and I handed it to herand I said I would not ever been
able to get this award withoutyou literally saving my life.
And so I gave back to, you knowagain, gave back to a country
that basically saved my life.
So that was really a big, hugepivot moment of going okay, get

(05:39):
your shit together.
Sue Got it Like somebody savedyour life for a reason and I
think that's that's.
It was a new beginning for meat that point.
It was 2000,.
Maybe three or four, I don'tknow.
To be honest with you,everything's a blur, but that
was back.
That was back then.
I wasn't in the military.

(06:00):
At that time I was working forthe Army Fisher House program
when I went over to Thailand andwhen I went to Vietnam.

Thad David (06:05):
So yeah, so that's it.
Well, so what was it like foryou?
I'm curious, if you don't mindme asking you, what was it like
for you being adopted fromVietnam and growing up here in
the US, I mean prior to joiningthe military?
Obviously I could see wherethat would spark an interest in
joining, but what was that likefor you?

You know I'd be honest with you, like I have
other siblings that were adoptedand they had a hard time
dealing with the fact that theywere adopted.
And I came from abused homes.
Or actually my older sister shehad really hard time with it
and I'm not, but I had not.
I didn't remember anything, soit wasn't one of those things

(06:45):
that I regretted.
I just knew that if I had notbeen adopted I wouldn't be alive
, and I know, I knew this.
My whole my whole life.
I was like, oh yeah, I mean mylife, my childhood was the best
in the world, but who's is it?
But I know there was a.
You know I had a relationshipwith my adopted parents in a way
that I knew that they saved mylife.

(07:06):
So there's that.
I don't know I was a.
I was a crazy kid, you know.
I didn't.
You know I was probably alwaysin trouble.
I was.
You know I was the middle child, but the first child, which is
interesting.
I was the first adopted childof my parents and child period
and then I ended up being themiddle child.
Do the factors three?
Three younger and two oldersiblings?

Thad David (07:28):
What was?
Yeah it's interesting.
Yeah, there's so many studiesdone on the birth order and what
that does, so I wonder how thatfollows up.
Like what's it like being firstbut not the oldest?

I don't know, it's like I never really thought
about, because there was such anage gap between all of us.
And you know, my oldestsiblings came from a very
abusive families.
That's why they came into ourhome.
And then the younger twosiblings, or three siblings one
was my older sister or youngersister, has you know had problem
about being adopted.
And then there was toobiological.

(08:01):
My mom wasn't supposed to havechildren and all of a sudden she
had two and so that was like,oh the miracle baby.
So it was, it was.
It was definitely interestingbeing.
I saw probably 10, maybe 10,nine or 10 when Amy was born and
then Mick was born about twoyears later.
So it's like you're you'rehelping raise two, two infants

(08:25):
and two.
You know, you don't even knowit.
Maybe that's when my mother,the instincts came in which I'm
not a mom at all, love childrenbut I don't want them.
So there's that.
But I think that's what helpedme develop into being a kind of
a caregiver throughout my lifeis because I did take care of my
younger siblings.

Thad David (08:42):
And that makes a lot of sense, the, the giving
nature, because you mentionedafterwards you were working for
the Fisher house, which I'd liketo dive into that later, as
well.
Were your other adoptedsiblings.
Where were they?
Also from Vietnam.

No, my foster sister Bob yes she was.
She was from Vietnam.
She'd come over on the boats.
We'd sponsored a boat family at15 at one point, and that was
right after the fall, and Bobbasically was being abused by
her mother, and so the priestcame and asked us if we would

(09:15):
take take her in as well.
But she's gosh, she's probablyin her seventies now, so she was
quite older, like she was 16,17.
So there's at least a 10 to 12year age gap between us.
But she lives in Enid with herhusband, got married very, very
young.
But I guess it's a Vietnameseculture you marry young.

(09:36):
She got married probably at theage of 17.
But her husband was like thesame age, maybe a year older,
and they have two kids that aregrown up, so it's like they're
my age now.
So it's like, yeah, so that'sthe only one that was from
Vietnam, but the other were fromall over the world.

Thad David (09:57):
That's pretty amazing that they stepped in to
do that, and so you went through.
You decided at what age did youdecide that you were going to
join the army?

Probably after I had no idea what I was going to
do with after college.
It's like yeah, I didn't.
I joined listed.
I didn't want to be an officer.
I didn't like I don't know whyI didn't want to be one, but I
just didn't want to be one.
I didn't.
I thought that because I was inROTC and I was, you know, I did
some, you know, trainingbecause I was pro.

(10:25):
I was delayed entry becausebasic training I wanted to do it
during my summer breaks and soI was in a reserve unit and I
guess I just saw, because I was,you know, I didn't have any
rank right, because you didlearn in the military they it
was.
You could see that the NCOs,like enlisted, ran the military
and I saw that immediately andthat's why I was like, oh, you

(10:47):
know what I'm not going to.
You know, I definitely want tobe on the boots on the ground,
getting you know shit done andbasically doing cool stuff that
officers, as you've learned inthe military.
I don't know if you're anofficer or not, but what I
learned in the military was thatyou know, yeah, they had their
role, but they respected NCOsMost of them did, I think, the

(11:10):
higher ranking that they went.
They respected that.
The NCOs were the back-loadedmilitary and I saw that.
So, and I had a lot of greatmentors, both officer and
enlisted mentors.
So that was kind of why I wentthat direction.

Thad David (11:24):
And so you had a college degree and decided you
were still going to go on thisCorrect.
That's amazing.

Yeah, it's interesting and I didn't want to
.
I don't know, I didn't it was.
It is what it's like.
It made me who I am today.
I truly believe that I think itwas.
I learned a better way to leadpeople without you know, being a
dick.

Thad David (11:47):
Alright, so you joined in in 88, and what did
you end up doing in the Army?

So my first job, my first MOS, was 71 Golf, which
now I think it's all 90 series,but it's 71 Golf was a patient
administrator.
That was just female role and I, you know, it's just like you
did what you could do.
There was not many roles in themilitary at that point for
women that you could get into,which was ironically weird, but

(12:15):
it's like alright.
So I did patient administrationwith the Port Sam Houston and
then I decided to.
After I got out of college Idecided to go active duty and so
I couldn't go back into thatjob.
Yeah, so I had to go and findanother job.
So I went in as a 77 Foxtrot,which is petroleum supply

(12:35):
specialist.
So I ended up going to Germanyfor four years with that.
I went to Desert Storm, drove an18-wheeler, you know five ton
fuel truck around, did bothretail and book with that job.
Did that for four years andthen I couldn't get promoted.
Like it was just crazy, becauseit was point systems and it was

(12:59):
just so hard to get promotedand because it was like, unlike
the infantry, which you knowtheir score, you know their
point system was like 350.
Like I was 899, which was themax, was 900 to get promoted and
I was like no, this isridiculous.
So I went in as a 63 Bravo,which was a light, real vehicle
mechanic, and I did that forabout three years, got promoted

(13:24):
and then I had a skin disorderfrom Desert Storm, which is
psoriasis, which is an immune.
It's actually an immunedeficiency.
It's like it's the disease.
You don't know about it untilit just shows up all of a sudden
.
You're like what is this?
I did biopsies.
They didn't know like first.

(13:44):
You know the test was an eczema, so I couldn't be a mechanic
anymore because of the chemicalsand stuff like that was just
irritating my skin so bad.
So then I went back into so theycall it MMRB, basically it's a
medical review board to send you.
So thank goodness I had anotherjob that I could go back into.
So I went back into patientregistration and I went to

(14:08):
Launceville, germany, and Iended up in the AirVac position
and because at the timeLaunceville was army, ran by the
army, so the Air Force ran theAir Medical Station Facility but
we ran the AirVac offices.
Okay, we went out to NATO ERMSI, european Regional Medical

(14:31):
Command and Launceville RegionalMedical Command, so we ran all
those offices and so I ended upbeing that.
I just said I was a travelagent for the sick and the dead
at that point, okay, and so thatis like.
Yeah, I know kind of like peopleare like looking at me, like
what that's like?
Well, it's true story.
It's not like.
That's really all I can talkabout.
That's all I can really sayabout it.

(14:51):
Really, it was a lot ofmovement of that's where
logistics came in my home Icould move thousands of patients
a week.
Funny story where the USmilitary are the only military
in the world that has an airevacuation system in its
military.

Thad David (15:09):
Why is that?

I don't know, I just think it's a lot of money.
I mean, we would have to sayit's a.
We had a, like a NICU baby hadto be moved immediately to
Philadelphia to chop what's due,as we sent it to, and you'd
literally find the plane thatcould take this baby and all the
doctors that went with it, thefamily, and they would literally

(15:33):
fly that baby and the familyand all the doctors on a C5.
If that's what they could find,wow, yeah, so it's just like
huh, and then they or they wouldbring in the doctors like, and
so I think it's because of costand I don't know we uh, there
was Russians.
It was going to Russians get.

(15:54):
I think it was during Bosnia,but they had gotten injured and
they brought them to Launstool.
Germany did not want anythingto do with that, so we ended up
having to medivact them becausethe Russian government just
wanted to send them on a plane.
But these guys were hooked uplike pins and they're still in
bed like really messed up, andso we flew them back to Russia

(16:17):
on a plane.
So I think that's probably cost.
I don't know.
It's weird.
I never really thought aboutwhy.
We were the only ones that didit.
It's very, it's very expensive.

Thad David (16:26):
And you would be the one, logistically, to help
coordinate all of that.

Yeah.
So we would like the doctorswould submit a form and saying,
okay, this patient needs to goto so-and-so hospital.
Most of them all went to WalterReed, some went to chop, the
veterans went to their.
The VA took them to theirclosest VA, what they were
assigned to.
But they would be seen and thenI would, we would get them on a

(16:54):
plane.
Basically the Air Force wouldscreen them, I would get them
the information and I wouldwrite all the orders for them
inpatient, outpatient and wewould get the influx of all the
injured down from down range.
Cause that was the thing, likeeverybody had to go through
Germany at that time, which isokay, why don't you just send

(17:15):
them to the U?
S?
But for some reason there wassome regulation out to that they
had to go through Germany.
So once they got there, then weyou know we send them forward
to wherever the doctors or theywould send them back to their
unit, but that, and then we'dsend them all over Europe as
well, cause all the hospitals inEurope would send retirees or
patients to Longstool.
They get treated and then wewould send them back home.

Thad David (17:38):
Hmm, and you said you were in, and it's kind of
backtracking a little bit too,but you were in Desert Storm.

Yes, uh, huh.

Thad David (17:45):
Yeah, what did you do during Desert Storm?

I was a petroleum supply specialist, so I drove a
field truck throughout theDesert Storm until I became a
commander's driver.
I don't know why I got picked,but I mean the commander was he
wasn't from our unit.
It was kind of weird because Ithink I don't know the rules of
the war, but he, he was a major,so or not a major?

(18:10):
He was a captain.
But I think in the medicalfield you have to it has to be a
major to command a medicalcompany, which is okay.
But he came from the reservesbecause I guess our commander at
the time I guess retired orsomething.
I don't know what happened, buthe ended up and they were

(18:30):
looking for a driver.
It's like, all right, I guess Ihave the best driving record.
I don't know.
I mean, I'd rather wish I'dstayed with my, my, my, my
platoon.
But I learned a lot from themand you know it's just like
driving.
You know misstays you around.
We ran into a lot of.
You know wire was great.
We had the old cut Vs back then.
You know the unleaded or theleaded vehicles and you can see

(18:52):
anything at night.
We didn't have home Vs just yet.
They weren't even painted.
So we were brought runninggreen vehicles they, but so
that's kind of what I did.
Yeah, after I got picked to bea commander, I'd love to.

Thad David (19:07):
I would, and I would imagine to.
I think, looking back at mytime in the military, you know I
had buddies that had severalyears of college done, or did
have a degree, but decided to goenlisted as well, and you know
as much as I didn't want toadmit it at the time, but you
could just tell there wasdefinitely an intellectual level
above where we were at.

(19:29):
I mean, not to mention the factthat there there's four years.
I mean an 18 year old is verydifferent than a 20 year old,
aside from the college.
So I would imagine you youcarried yourself in a very
highway, much like you do now,and that's probably why you got
selected to do that.

Well, you know, I or I was a sucker, I'm not sure
which You're doing this likereally.
I mean, I kind of fought it fora minute but I was like
whatever, I'll just do whateverI need to do.

Thad David (19:53):
But I love your humility with all of it and, as
a Desert Storm veteran, you knowit's interesting and I love to
talk to each kind of.
We all have our generationalwar, or just the battles that we
ran.
What was that like after thatwas over?
Because there was a you know aperiod of time before the Iraq

(20:15):
war picked up.
There was you know quite alarge chunk of time.
What was it like as that wasover?
Is it similar to now?
Is it different to now, youknow, with our veterans that are
getting out these days or spent, that have spent time in the
second war?

Well, I think I think being a Desert Storm
veteran is where we're in awhole different entity.
Like we have the Vietnamveterans that weren't accepted
back and I think Desert Storm,because we were accepted, people
started to forgive whateverhappened in Vietnam.
I met so many Vietnam veteransthat realized they finally

(20:53):
realized that we, they belong insociety as well, and I think
Desert Storm helped kick thepublic to understand that war is
not about killing people orbabies.
It's about how going out andsupporting a country that can't
support itself and be part ofthat bigger picture of we need

(21:14):
to support these veterans thatcome back.
Did we think that?
I mean, it's a hundred, what ahundred hour war, the ground war
, right, so was it a significantchunk of change like Vietnam
war or two or all the other warsbefore us?
Absolutely not, but it wassignificant enough that it did

(21:34):
have big impacts in my life,probably 10 years on down the
road, when I didn't realize Iwas having these problems.

Thad David (21:42):
What impacts would you say that was?

Yes, right, you don't know what your PTS is all
about, you don't like?
I had a good friend of mine whowas killed in Desert Storm and
a couple of ones that wereinjured because of his.
He was, you know, and I lookedback and I was very angry with
Phillip for a long time becausehe did injure other people,
because he was naive and dumband didn't follow orders.

(22:04):
So, but I was angry and it tookme forever to figure out how to
forgive him and Team Rubicon.
Ironically, we went to a smalltown called Marcel's, illinois,
and it was 2013,.
Maybe this is the one and onlyMiddle East conflict memorial

(22:31):
that's sitting out there, andthe whole time I was there, I
was so busy doing logistics,trying to keep the teams
together, because at that point,you know, there's different
typings of and it was like atype 3 flooding that just
flooded the whole city.
So we went out there to help andtowards the end, somebody said,
oh, we took a picture in frontof this memorial wall because we

(22:51):
helped move all this debrisfrom the wall.
And somebody said, oh, youshould, you know, look at this
wall because it's you.
This is every conflict up toDesert Storm in the Middle East,
and so my friend was on thiswall and I had no idea that his
name was on this wall and so atthat point I think my healing it

(23:14):
started because I was not angrywith him anymore.
I was able to see a name and bemad at him for a minute and
it's like and then, so thatchanged.
That changed a lot of in how Ilooked at different things, and
not that I not that Iimmediately got help right after
that, but I knew there was along road, that I wasn't, I was

(23:38):
angry.
I was angry, little person, youknow and then I realized, oh,
that's nice, this is so dumb tobe so angry.
And so I started forgiving.

Thad David (23:45):
What do you think that was?
Because it's interesting.
You said you saw his name.
And why do you think it wasthat you started healing at that
point?

Because I was able to yell at his name.
I wasn't able to yell at himbefore because he died so
quickly and it's like I mean hecould have stayed in the truck.
You know, you didn't have toget out of the truck.
We told you not to get out ofthe truck.
But I think part of it was thatangry, as me, being a leader at
that point, was like okay, youmade me mad, now you've injured

(24:12):
yourself.
You killed yourself and injuredall the other people.
So I was just mad and I think alot of, I think a lot of guilt
is part of that associated withthat.
I mean, I think I talk for mostveterans of when they lose a
friend as a comrade and arms.
You lose a friend, like youhave this guilt thing going on.
But I don't know if it wasguilt, I just just hang with the

(24:34):
whole time for years I think.
Finally I was like, oh, youprobably need to forgive them.
And you know I have on my wall.
I have a you know I took youknow how they have the little
transparent.
You could mark the wall youknow, scribble the name.
So I have that with my wordsand stuff like that, and I think
I look at that and go, okay,yeah, so I started healing and

(24:54):
forgiving and I think thathelped me be a better leader in
Team Rubicon.
It kind of helped me heal a partof me, that that I didn't want
to be mad anymore.
So I was like I don't want tobe mad anymore, so it's like
it's okay.
But I, you know, I'd gonethrough quite a bit, you know,
from 2009 to you know, I reallywent through a huge time in my

(25:21):
life where I was like, oh, and2010, 2011 is when I finally,
you know, I went and got help,you know, and I realized that,
oh, probably I need therapy andit was the best thing I ever did
, absolutely.
And I, you know, I have friendsthat I was like, yeah, I'm not
your therapist, you probablyneed one.
You know he was looking at melike, no, I'm dead serious, I'm
not kidding.
It's like you, your friendscan't help you deal with some of

(25:45):
the stuff that they're trainedto deal with.

Thad David (25:48):
So, I think for that I want to ask.
I made a note.
I'm going to have anotherquestion with that, but there
was something intriguing aboutwhat you mentioned and if I'm
off base, let me know but itsounded almost like you had a
large period of time of severalyears where you were dealing
with a lot of PTSD or symptomsof it that you didn't know that

(26:09):
that's what it was.

Yeah, no, absolutely.
Like I got out of the military,I wanted to be in 30 years.
I wanted to be the SergeantMajor of the Army.
That was my goal, but medicallyI couldn't be a leader of
soldiers anymore, and so I feltlike this was the best option,
not for me particular, butbecause I couldn't be a, I
couldn't be the in seal thatthat my soldiers would need, and

(26:31):
so I had to make that.
It was a hard decision.
It was a really hard decision,yeah, yeah, so, and it took me,
yeah, so my wife passed away in2009.
That's what took me.
That's just spiraled me out ofcontrol and it's like, okay, I
need to get help.
Like I, this is time, and Ithink it's like, you know, not
that death is great, but I thinkher passing away made me

(26:55):
realize that I was strugglingthis whole time and I didn't
realize it, but that was thecatalyst of me trying to finally
getting help, and so I tookthat time to figure out what is.
Am I perfectly healed?
Absolutely not.
Do we still have a lot to workon?
Absolutely, in our lives, and Ithink everything I do since

(27:16):
then I've given back toorganizations, to other people
and my friends.
You know, they kind of like me,you know, because I'm a really
good chef.
But I just think it was one ofthose things that you know.
If I don't think, if she hadnot passed away, I think I still

(27:36):
would probably have thoseproblems.
Or if I had not gone to TeamRubicon, to Marcel's, Illinois,
and did this, saw the wall, Idon't think I would have ever
forgiven.
You know, fill up.
But I was just like, oh, likehuh, there's something that was,
you know, slowly, but I threweverything into Team Rubicon to

(27:57):
hide or mask my wife's passing.
But I knew it was still thereand I think it was a big change
in my life, but for the better.
I'm sad, sure, I miss her everyday, but I think part of it is
that you have to.
I figured out how to move onand give her what she needed,

(28:22):
you know back.
So she's like, oh, she's like,look, it was like, oh, you're
still being dumb.
Okay, yes, yes, hon, I'm stillbeing dumb.
But she, I just know she's likeyou know, I think she would be
very proud of what I'm doing.
So, and you know, my family'svery proud of me.
I've come a long way with beinga stubborn little kid to where I
am today.
So you know I'm proud to bepart of these organizations that

(28:43):
do help people in the worst dayand I think that that community
draws me back to like being inthe military, because Team
Rubicon is a veteran leddisaster organization but also I
was, you know.
You know you're involved withother other entities that, oh
yeah, people, you are helpingpeople in the worst day.
It doesn't mask, it doesn'thelp mask the pain that you're

(29:04):
going to personally, but ithelps you realize that you need
to not mask that pain and youneed to live your life the way
you should love it, not forsomebody else.

Thad David (29:17):
Just knowing you and I told you earlier I was
talking to my wife about justthe few times we've been on the
phone.
Every time I talk to you orjust get the honor to talk to
you, You're just such an amazingperson.
I'm like I just want to go hangout with you Because you're
just such a joyful.
You're just a joy to talk toyou and it's well I.
You said you like to think yourwife would be proud.

(29:39):
I know for a fact that shewould be.
You're doing amazing things andI'm sorry to hear about your
wife passing away.
The question I have with thattoo, because A lot of veterans,
I think they can't put a fingeron what's going on.
I don't know what the catalystneeds to be for veterans, but

(30:03):
since you have it, if you lookback and reflect on it, do you
have any indicators that youlooked back on prior to your
wife passing, that you look backand you're like that was
something, that, in hindsight,that that was an indicator, that
was something I should haveknown then, that it was time for
me to get help.
Do you have anything?
And when you reflect on thosetimes prior to that, no,

(30:24):
absolutely.

I think that's years of therapy also pulled all
that out too.
One thing about when I wentinto therapy, the first
therapist I had went back to mychildhood.
There was a lot of drama in mychildhood just coming from a war
to our country.
It was hidden all this timedeep down in our subconscious.

(30:45):
It's hidden because we don'twant to face it.
Or you blacked out half of it.
It's not that I was drunk orblacked out, because that's not
the reason.
It was the fact that I mean,I'm not drunk at six years old.
But there was things that Iknow.
I remember as I got done withDesert Storm.
I didn't want to talk about thewar, I didn't want to talk

(31:06):
about what I did.
I didn't talk about Phillip, Ijust didn't talk.
I didn't talk to my wife, I wasalways doing something.
Like today everybody says, ohso you're never home, you're
always traveling.
But I think and that's a partof our, that's part of PGS and I
didn't realize that that you'renot sitting still because I

(31:26):
can't sit still.
It's part of your PGS, that'spart of it.
You've got to keep on doingsomething to feel like you're
doing something.

Thad David (31:35):
Why is that part of it?

Because you don't focus on you.
You do everything to helpeverybody else, but you forget
to focus on you.
But I think and we'll probablytalk a little bit more about
veterans on the Camino, and Ithink that's was there was a
point after the Lahaina Fires,because I had accepted about a
year ago to the got theapplication for veterans on the
Camino and I'd always wanted todo it, but I never took time for

(32:00):
myself.
But it took all these years forme to finally do something for
myself, even though I felt I wasdoing something for myself with
Team Rubicon and Evacuate OurAllies, mobile Medics
International going to Haiti and, you know, just going to the
Ukraine, that kind of stuff.
And so it was just like huh,now that's not me doing

(32:22):
something for me, that's megoing to help, because I thought
that was helping me.
It wasn't helping me, it waslike I was helping other people.
But and I realized that on mylong walk and it was just like
huh, oh yeah, all right, sobetter, better year, you know,
moving forward.

(32:43):
I just think and I actually, youknow my psychiatrist and a
therapist said hey, you knowwhat?
You moving around doesn't helpthe problem, you're just.
You're just in a differentlocation with the same problem
and that really resonates withme in a lot of things that I saw
in the other veterans that Iwork with, with Team Rubicon and

(33:05):
the Evacuate Our Allies, when Iwent to the Ukraine, and he's
like you know, you see this, yousee this problem that keeps it.
It's like it's this circle youcan't get out of until you
decide to make that, make thatexit out of that 360.
And I don't think that we, wedon't think about that and you

(33:27):
know I don't think about that.
Right, I was like, oh,nothing's wrong with me,
nothing's wrong with me at all,you know.
But you know, I I'm like, youknow, as Pete said, and I truly
believe this statement is that Iam tough because everything
bothers me, so I add empathy,compassion and resilience to my
corner.

(33:47):
Being a good human is what ismost important, and I think
that's a true, true statement isthat I can lie to you all day,
so nothing bothers me.
No, everything bothers me, likebecause I have an empathetic
heart.
Or I like I want to fix peopleor things or situations, but I

(34:09):
have to, but I can't helpanybody else if I don't fix me
and understand that, yes, I ambroken and we can.
We can go on and move forwardand, yes, we can still help
people Absolutely.
But you have got to figure itout for you.
You know, as another quote, youcan't, you know you can't wait
for life not to be hard anymore,to be happy.
That's a quote from a singercalled Nightbird.

(34:32):
She died of her cancer so Ifollowed her to her journey and
I think that was a.
It's a very you know, it's a.
It's a quote that I try to toto live every day and it's hard.
I I'm not gonna say it's nothard, but I think you know, I
don't know.
There was times.
That's like somebody asked meyou don't have any burdens

(34:53):
because on the Camino well, notto digress off the conversation,
but there's a, there's a bigcross that you're supposed to
like lay your burdens down, orlike people carry rocks around.
It's like why would you carryrocks around?
It's already your backpacksalready heavy.
But people did, they had theirnames on it.
They put the rock on the crossand I was like somebody asked me
so you don't have any burdens?

(35:14):
I'm like I thought about that.
It's like I don't think I do,like I truly don't think I have
a burden that I felt like Ineeded to put on this huge cross
out of the middle of nowhereand then face, you know, at 12%
downgrade of climbing downslated rock, because all I was
thinking about how bad this roadis going to be on my knees.
But I really thought about it.

(35:34):
I was like no, no, because Ithink I really did a lot of my
forgiving way before I did theCamino.
But I've learned a lot.
I learned a lot about myself onthe Camino.

Thad David (35:45):
So and just because we're talking about it, what is,
what is the Camino?
For anybody that might not knowwhat did you, because you just
recently did- this as well.

Now it was an intense.
It's called the Camino deSantiago, brad.
I met Brad the founder in 2016with Team Rubicon and he had
just started this.
He had done the journey, and sohe takes veterans from all over
the world and they apply, youapply and then you get to go do
this, this trek.

(36:13):
We started.
We did a 713 kilometer trek, sowe we walked about 18 to 20
miles a day and I didn't stop.
I was like, no, if I stop, Iwill not get out of bed the next
day, but we'll not keep ongoing.
So I just plugged away and youknow, I spent the majority of
the walk by myself, because Ihave really short legs and

(36:34):
everybody was taller than I wasand so I would.
Just, my journey was my, ourjourney is our journey on the
Camino, and that's what Bradwants us to find, figure out,
and I think it helped me realizethat I like being by myself,
like I like my life the way itis.
I love to have my friendsaround me, but I also love the

(36:54):
fact that nobody's talking to meright now.
I didn't.
I didn't listen to musicbecause the bikers were crazy,
but I didn't listen to music andI did that for a reason because
I wanted to hear what was mysurroundings.
A lot of people do listen tomusic and they're they're tuned
in to that focus, but I wantedto focus on every step I was
taking.
It was probably the hardestjourney I've done in forever and

(37:19):
I was just like, oh, what am Idoing this?
Every day I was like what am Idoing?
Why am I doing this?
I was like set day seven.
I was like, okay, I think I cando this because your legs are
like my.
It took a week for my legs notto be sore.
But every veteran I was withthey had their own journey and I
was like it's a, it's a greatthing.
It's like I think Brad has agreat idea.

(37:39):
I have a lot of feedback forhim, but it's really good.
You know constructive criticismof of how we can get do better.
Like, let's cause I didn't knowmuch about it.
Like it's like I had no ideawhat the train was like I did, I
did train with the, my friendshere in Fort Collins and I
trained at altitude and I don'tthink if I had done that or not

(38:00):
been on my bike, which I'm goingto biking later, cause it's now
what?
59 degrees.
Uh, I just like I really feellike I don't think I would have
gotten back, you know cause I'min the best shape that I've been
in since I was probably in themilitary now and I lost 20
pounds.
And that's a lot for me to lose20 pounds.
And I was, but I didn't and Ireally thought about every day

(38:21):
on the trail, like going, I'mcarrying a 12 pound ruck, a
backpack.
How in the world did I carry a60 pound ruck at the age of 18?
That didn't fit me.
It was half my size, cause Iweighed 95 pounds to 105 pounds.
So how times in the military?
How did I do that?
But, uh, and I, yeah, I think,I think every veteran should do

(38:44):
pieces of that walk.
You don't have to do the whole713 kilometers or the from St
John.

Thad David (38:50):
I think every I know you said you learned that you
enjoyed being by yourself.
I'm curious to ask cause I knowyou also talked to a lot of
veterans there what did you takeaway from it?
What was it kind of one of yourbiggest, the biggest takeaways?
If it it, it might have beenthat.
And then also, what have youheard from other people?

I think, uh well, I follow a lot of sites and I
think everybody has.
Everybody has their communaljourney.
Some maybe it's religious cause.
It is a religious per sepilgrimage that started way back
for you know, any of us werealive and it.
I think what it did for me wasI realized and I looked at it

(39:30):
like it was I had so many forestgum things in my head the whole
time I was walking.
I really really felt that thecommunal was like a box of
chocolates.
You never knew what you're goingto get the next day.
You could look at all of theseschematics of like this year out
, you're going to what percentupgrade today?
And then you're going to do 18%downgrade, like and it's, this

(39:51):
was before your first espresso.
Like you'd have to walksometimes 10 kilometers to get
your first breakfast in cause.
Nothing's open at six and oneand you're like, hmm, all right,
yeah, and.
But the communal is also aboutthe lot journey.
Your journey in life is like.
Every step you take in yourlife is can be unsettling.

(40:11):
It could be rocks in your shoe,it could be you have something
that's keeping you from makingthat next step.
You look at the boulders andyou're going okay, I can't do
this, but you have to do this oryou, or you just quit.
And I think veterans have mostveterans have the tenacity to
keep on going.
I think most of my friends Icall them friends now because

(40:35):
they love it they had.
They loved it for their ownreason, I think, even though
there was a one guy that youknow, my favorite guy.
But I think hopefully helearned something that maybe a
little bit more compassionateabout other people, but I doubt
it, you know he's just that typeof person and but I think
that's what I try to to bring tothe table with the other
veterans, just like you knowwhat.
We're all here for a reason.

(40:56):
We all have to support eachother because we have become so
disconnected with the world ofcamaraderie, like we did in the
military.
Even the military today is justlike, hmm, seems like it's a
more cutthroat.
Everybody's out for themselvesand it's like, and you meet a
veteran today and it's likethey're going through probably
the same thing you did back then, but they're just now

(41:20):
struggling and figuring outtheir journey, and I think
that's what the commuter helpedme figure out.
Oh yeah, I, I don't have to notlike how much I weigh right now
, I can just do whatever I wantto do and I can train for it,
but you can't train enoughbecause you don't train for life
.
Life just gives you, you know,a box of chocolates, and you
figure it out.
You may not like that cherrycovered chocolate, because I

(41:44):
don't, but I ate it probablyevery day, because it's like, ah
, what am I doing?
You know it's like.
And then at the end I was justlike you know what?
I really feel like I'm going tobe forced scump on day 31.
We finished, I was like Ireally feel like I'm forced
scump.
I'm running this run for noreason.
Well, for a reason, I figuredout but and I joked about it but

(42:05):
it's like, oh, I'm finished now, I'm just tired, I just want to
go home.
People thought it was funny, butreality is that that's true.
It's like I did this journey.
Now what, what's next?
You know?
I mean, I had, I had a like ablog and I would write about it.
Like you know, this, this nowis where the journey begins for

(42:28):
me.
I truly believe that.
So I might go back and do itagain.
I kept saying, no, I would neverdo this again.
The people are crazy for keepcoming out and doing it, but I'm
going to do pieces of it andI'm going to take my friends and
hopefully teach them what Ilearned out there.
And you know, because you can,you can bring you what you need.
You don't need everything, butBrad says in his spiel is

(42:54):
basically, what you carry yourbackpack is your insecurities.
And it's so true.
I was 12 pounds of why am Icarrying this?
Like, why am I carrying allthis?
It was 15 pounds.
I got rid of all the stuff thatwould normally carry on a hike,
which I don't like, so that wasnew to me as well, and I was

(43:15):
just like, huh, that makes a lotof sense, wow.
And so I slowly got rid of abunch of stuff and I realized
that all I needed was thesethings that would keep me
comfortable to be able tocontinue my journey.
And you don't know that untilyou get on the trail.

Thad David (43:31):
So tell us some more about that, that your
insecurities, what you'recarrying in your pack, because
that's actually what you'recarrying.

Yeah, no, absolutely Like you have like
some people brought.
Like this was one guy and he'sa great guy but he bought a 511
day pack.
I'm like why would you do that?
I mean it was like as wide as Iwas, like in the back.
He's six four wearing a day 511day back.

(43:57):
That was extended, you know, itwas bigger than his body
sideways, like in the back, andso he was walk.
You got really hurt and I waslike why do you have so much
stuff?
Like I just did blew my mindbut I even had way too much
stuff Because when the guyslooked at my bag, picked it up,
I said I had two pounds of waterin there so I went and eat it
because every day we had a placeto get water.
I don't need to carry all thatwater, probably regretting a

(44:20):
little bit of that waterconsumption as I right now.
But I just think it's one ofthose.
It's true, like I had things inmy backpack that it was
comforts.
I want my comforts and it waslike your wooby blankets, like
that's what I wanted in mybackpack.
But then you realize you don'tneed that.

(44:41):
So you're slowly getting rid ofthe stuff that is familiar to
you and you've used for years,and I just left it on the trail
for somebody else to find, likewater bottle.
I got from for years ago acoffee mug, you know a shirt
that meant something to me but Ididn't really need it.
So it's like I left it forsomebody else along the road to
be able to carry it or not carryit.

(45:02):
But that's like I think that'swhat.
That's what I get out of what Iwas saying.
It's like you don't need tocarry all this crap because
reality is you don't need it.
Like you can stop in a town andgrab what you need every day.
Because I ate snacks the wholetime.
I carried probably more foodsnacks than anything because you
know, god bless the Spanish,but the food on the trail wasn't

(45:23):
that great.
I mean, because you know I tryto eat healthy, organic lettuce
salad, but it was iceberglettuce and like, so I would eat
what I'd make granola bars andstuff like that water, I think
that's you know, but that wasn'tmy insecurity.
Those things I needed for asubstance but I didn't need was
like oh, why am I carrying thisheavy water cooler that I've had

(45:43):
for years?
And it reminds me of a timethat, when I first started as
other organizations, I was likeI still need this anymore.
It's like, so I started gettingrid of that, and so my backpack
began to weigh nothing.

Thad David (45:56):
How does that, how do you think that translates
into?
And you kind of tied it towhere they came from.
But where do you think thattranslates, you know, from the
trail of carrying yourinsecurities and your backpack
into our everyday lives, likewhat?
Where does that show up forpeople?

Well, I think every , every day, you're like looking
around, going, okay, I got a,everybody has a job Like, oh, I
hate my job, why do I got to dothis?
And it's because people wantmoney.
They think money is going tomake them happy.
They think that if I have thebest job, I'm going to have the
best car, I'm going to have thebest house.
And what I learned from myfriends that lost their homes in

(46:32):
Lahaina or being in thedisaster world?
That can be gone in like twoseconds.
Your comforts are going to begone and you're going to have to
rebuild.
No-transcript, those thingsnever made you happy.
You miss them now.
But reality is did it reallymake you happy?
Yes, you were a first homebuyer and you lost your condo

(46:55):
and now, all of a sudden, you'rehaving to still pay the
mortgage because you didn't haveenough insurance or whatever
the case may be, because I'mactually looking into that
myself.
So maybe I don't have enoughinsurance, because it makes you
think it's like yourinsecurities are okay.
People have.
You've got to make money tosurvive in this world.
And then you got the onepercenters that have everything.

(47:16):
And I don't even know, I feelsometimes I don't even think
there is a middle class anymore.
I think it's Uber-riched tolike really, really low income
and everybody's living paycheckto paycheck to paycheck, and
it's sad because that's people'sinsecurities and I think that's
what makes me realize that whenI was walking, that my

(47:36):
insecurities is definitely notneeding all this crap in my
backpack, because it was thenice things in life, you don't.
I want to travel more nowbecause I've always loved to
travel, but I want to travelbecause I'm going out and
traveling for myself.
I want to go visit places I'venever been.
I mean, I want to go toAustralia because I've always

(47:57):
thought that everything inAustralia is going to kill you
and so maybe I just won't go tothose places that have things
that'll kill me.
But I have friends there.
I was like I need to take moretime to nurture my friends and
be a part of their lives, that Ihaven't been in a while and I
think, because of myinsecurities, about being able

(48:19):
to do those things and buildinga financial platform that I can
do these things, that I forgotto do these things.
Like every two years I travelwith the friends with the boat
trips.
It's like the.
It's awesome and I realizedlike I need to do more boat
trips, I need to do moretraveling and I think I'm going

(48:41):
to take more time to do that,but I don't know.
Hopefully that answers thequestion of why I feel like
people have insecurities intheir life is because they can't
, they don't want to deal withthe reality of not having
something Like-.

Thad David (48:55):
Maybe think of oh, I'm sorry, no, go ahead.
It just made me think of.
It was interesting because youkind of looped in the middle
class or lack of, but also theover purchasing of items, and
that I mean I think we as asociety, especially here in
America, we would buy a ton andI'm definitely not preaching
from the place of I don't buyridiculous stuff because I do.

(49:16):
You know my wife we could.
She would have many things tosay and it just made me think of
how many people buy all thesethings that we don't need, that
cause us to live thisimpoverished life, that it kind
of fuels that fire of insecurityaround money.
And I know that it's not thepurpose of the conversation or
why we brought it up, but that'sjust where my mind went with

(49:38):
Right, everybody we follow thatwhole back thing about we want
to be like the Joneses,Everybody wants to be the
Joneses.

But why, Right?
The Joneses are divorced nowand, you know, live in separate
homes.
Like, why are you gonna be?
Like, why are you with them?
Right Is the year it was down.
Right, Turns out, they werenever happy all along.
Exactly right.
Yeah, we just we thought theywere yeah well, you do us a
favor.

Thad David (50:00):
Well, you do a ton of work now, and it's
interesting that you mentionedwanting to travel more, because
just knowing where you've beenalready, you're seemed like one
of the most well-traveled peoplethat I've ever met.
You works the Fisher House andyou work for Team Rubicon.
Now, I mean, what do you do forTeam Rubicon?
Where has that brought you?

Right now I'm a lease employee contractor.
When I do, when I'm aninstructor, I teach people how
to do things with their hands,to take drywall down for the
disaster survivors, how to cleartheir homes.
I teach people how to beinstructors.
I mainly love being chef-ingnow because I'm getting back

(50:42):
into that world and I reallylove it, so that's what I do.
And then I just signed on as acontractor with Worlds Into
Kitchen because I really feellike that's, because in the
kitchen, even though you mighthave a staff of, you know, 20
people, but you're still, what Ido is like private chef-ing or
travel chef-ing.
So it's just like I go and I'mby myself in this kitchen and I,

(51:05):
you know, so I have helpoccasionally I have a sous chef
and I would just, you know, it'sa great feeling of being able
to put a great meal on the tableand everybody appreciates it.
That's me giving back to, andit's also bringing me back to
being, you know, a chef andenjoying that life and not being

(51:26):
involved in the, I guess, thepolitics of an organization.
That's still, you know, growingpainfully sometimes, but I'm
still being able to help theorganization and we call the
volunteers gray shirts.
I'm going back to Maui to helphopefully, you know get their

(51:46):
logistics set up.
I am the Wyoming Colorado,hawaii deputy log, so I fall,
I'm a volunteer on that.
That's all volunteers.
So I I'm basically aprocurement officer for every
cash that is from WyomingColorado to Hawaii and so I try

(52:07):
to teach people how to run theircash right, make sure they know
how to do their inventories,and then the cash manager does
this thing and then, if theyneed anything after operations
or before an incident ormitigation or whatever, I try to
get all that stuff from beforeand after Going back.
We're going to do a leadershipconference.

(52:27):
We're going to do a disastertraining camp which we go out
and teach, like we have.
Chainsaw is one of ourcapabilities in Team Rivergon.
Heavy equipment operators isone of our capabilities.
Core operations, which isbasically taking a house down to
its foundation so families cancome in and rebuild.

(52:47):
That's one of our capabilities.
So we Incident Management Team.
Right now we have members in onthe Incident Management Team at
the Emergency Operating Centerin Maui helping them build up
their management ImmersionManagement Office, basically
helping manage all the thingsthat are going on after the

(53:11):
fires.
So I've been doing that like,yeah, on and off for 13 years.
I mean, I was a volunteer foralmost four or five years before
I even got a contracting job.
So I've done a lot of hats inTeam Rivergon, but I think my
favorite hat right now is beingon the disaster training team or
mobile training team and beingable to go back to roots of
being a chef and I becausethat's where I'm happy.

(53:34):
So I want to be what I'm doinghappy, or I'm just not going to
do it.
I think I've learned that yearsago but I just haven't put it
into play because all my friendsare like well, you know, keep
saying that you're going toretire from Team Rivergon.
I was like, yeah, I know, Iknow, but there's so many other
great shirts out there that Iwant them to have the same great
shirt experience that I have.

(53:54):
And I'm trying to keep thatfire lit under the new
leadership and the oldleadership.
You know we're still allvolunteers and you started as a
volunteer.
Let's keep this going and bebetter humans to each other and
it's a hard animal sometimes.

Thad David (54:10):
How much?
Oh, I'm sorry.

No good.

Thad David (54:13):
I was going to ask you about the just helping
people in general, becausethat's one of the common threads
that I hear from just talkingto veterans and kind of that
help that they get, that theytend to get a lot out of helping
and bringing joy to otherpeople.
Is that something that you'veexperienced with being able to
go help people out?

(54:34):
I mean, do you get a lot ofself healing within just helping
other people?

No, absolutely, and I think we everybody you know
it's interesting because we havekick ass civilians that's what
we call them and it also helpsthe civilian side of Team
Rubicon understand the veteranside.
And, as a veteran, it helped meunderstand the civilian side of
the house, because when you'reaway from your country for years

(55:03):
on end, you forget how thiscountry was being ran Like.
These guys are built as a techworld, the civilians and when I
say these guys, that's probablybad verbiage, but the civilian
side of the house they wereworking in the grocery stores.
They're working the malls thatwe fucking hate, hate going to
mall, but as, just like you.
But they did.

(55:23):
They kept the world moving whenwe were in a different country,
trying to keep that worldmoving, and they've learned how
to respect us 100% more.
And I respect the civiliancounterparts 100% more too,
because I realized that, oh,just because you're a veteran,
like, oh, you don't belong.
It's like and unfortunatelythere are some veterans who

(55:45):
still don't think they should bein the organization.
But what veteran in all reality, what veteran wants to be an
office manager?
Zero, zero, right.
Nobody in their right mind, asa veteran, wants to be an office
manager, and I never reallythought that, I never put that
together until somebody made apoint Like who in their right

(56:07):
mind wants to be an officemanager?

Thad David (56:09):
It's them.

Not me, you know, and I get it I was like, oh yeah
, okay, that makes sense.
But because so there's a needfor us to be able to come
together because at the end ofthe day we have we call it, we
have a fire pit and we'reallowed to buy our volunteers
two beers a day, sort of likethe old, you know, beer drinking

(56:32):
in the military where you wereable to drink two beers at lunch
.
But it's like we sit around thefire pit and whoever wants to
talk can talk.
But you start seeing a commonpicture with everybody, like
everybody faced that day, notknowing what they were gonna get
into, like they had a kid stillliving in a house, children

(56:57):
living in a house that wastotally demolished.
They didn't have anywhere tolive, and it affects you in a
way that you didn't realize.
It affects you and that opensup a whole conversation of how
was your day?
Are you okay?
And we do believe in wellnessbecause we've lost a lot,

(57:21):
unfortunately, of our volunteersthat were veterans and we've
lost a few civilians thatcommitted suicide throughout my
time in Team Ubergon and we'retrying to fix that stigma that
veterans are just a bunch ofcrackpots that are mad and angry
little humans.
All the time it's like, oh no,I was there, yeah.

(57:42):
But I think Team Ubergon gave mea purpose again, to be able to
be around other veterans orlike-minded people, and so I
find organizations that arelike-minded like me, like this
is what we wanna do, likeveterans in the community.
We all didn't know what we weregetting into, but we all have a
common goal is to finish and tofind out what the community was

(58:09):
all about.
Just like Team Ubergon, helpinga disaster survivor, you go out
there and you go holy crap,this changes your life.
Hugging that homeowner youdon't want to, because I'm not
like I like to hug, but it justtears me up when you're they
wanna hug you, so you have to.
It's like you're obligated to,but it's just like, ah, because

(58:29):
your emotions all come out,those emotions you know.
But it's just like one of thosethings that it drives you to be
a better human because theyjust lost everything.
And so what I try to do now isfeed the masses, of giving them
a good hot meal, bringing themback to why we're all gray
shirts in the first place andmaking sure that they know why

(58:50):
they're a gray shirt.
Is it because this is astepping stone for you in your
life, or is it you really wannahelp somebody else Because
there's like, and you wannabring that back to the table and
say, hey guys, you snap out ofit, I'm sorry you're eating cold
cereal for breakfast, but youare gonna go help a family that
has no home right now andthey're still probably living in

(59:11):
their home.
So let's bring it back a notch.
Let's figure out why you'rehere, and it's up to every
individual.
You can't make somebody believethe same way you do, because
that's just unrealistic.
But can you guide them in a waythat says you know what?
Look at the good things you'redoing here, and not that you

(59:33):
want cold cereal.
Like, no, I'll eat cold cereal,I'll eat MRE if I have to.
I don't want to, but I will andwe go to disaster zones.
So hello people.
You know and I think mostorganizations I belong to that
we wanna help other people and Ithink the camaraderie of it
helps us rebuild our lives orhelps us realize that, oh, my

(59:55):
life's not that bad.
I could be sitting in my housewith no roof and with no power
for months on end, or I justlost my whole family in a fire,
that kind of stuff.
So it makes you feel a littlebit more grateful for me.
I'm not saying everybody's thesame but, I, think that's what
we try to teach and I thinkthat's why I still stay with

(01:00:18):
Team Rubicon is because I stillwanna be able to teach why we're
there in the first place.
We take care of the gracious,because we want you to make sure
that you can take care of thedisaster survivors, and I think
that's where my hat is now andTeam Rubicon is like.
I want you to be able to havethe best equipment, have the
best meal, to be able to go outand move on and get the disaster

(01:00:41):
survivors to know what theyneed you had mentioned and if
you're okay with me asking aboutit, you mentioned some people
in Team Rubicon have committedsuicide.

Thad David (01:00:52):
Some veterans and some civilians Were there and
definitely don't want to knowanybody by name, but were there
any indicators or signs, becauseit's interesting that they're
in this helpful organization?
Were there?
Indicators or signs that saidout that that was gonna happen.

Sue Johnson (01:01:07):
No, I mean absolutely.
There was a lot like it's kindof weird because I'm not that
person that's gonna talk you offthe ledge.
I'm gonna find that personthat's gonna talk you off the
ledge and that's what I learnedin assist supply, suicide,
something, something.
Training is basically what youlearn about you and where you
can help another veteran, and Ilearned that I am not that

(01:01:29):
person that's gonna sit on thebridge with you.
I'm gonna try to drag you offthe bridge and get you help or
find that person that's gonnahelp you.
But a lot of people call mebecause I was that first person
they ever met in Team Rubicon,or I was that person that I will
have a conversation with youbut let me find you some help.
I'm very transparent with thattoo.
It's like I want you to survivein this world and that it's

(01:01:50):
life isn't so bad.
Were there telltale signs?
Absolutely, were there somethat were not, that were total
shocks?
Absolutely, but to theirfriends it wasn't a shock, which
was interesting, because how doI call myself a friend if I
knew these were the signs?
But again, I truly believe thatPTS, once you diagnose, is

(01:02:14):
almost like you're an alcoholicright.
You have to be ready to gethelp, like I can't tell another
veteran or another person thatyou need the help.
You need to go get the help.
I can't drag them unlessthey're trying to commit suicide
.
I can call the police and youknow, but they're only in there
for three days in which we'vedone before, but it doesn't.

(01:02:38):
It only either makes themangrier or it doesn't.
You know it doesn't help thembecause you're pushing them to
do something they're not readyto do and I truly believe that
we're not.
Like many people aren't builtto do that.
Because I'm not a psychiatrist,I know I've never had any
mental health training, exceptfor that assist class, which

(01:02:59):
helped me realize that I'm thatperson that's gonna help you
find help, but I can't help youbecause I'm not.
I'm not set up that way.
I will sit and listen to youall day.

And you mentioned that, just that they need to
seek help, like that's them thatneeds to do it.
And you had said earlier andthis was one thing I wanted to
circle back to from earlier andyou said that therapy was the
best thing that you had everdone.

As in.

Just with your life and just unpacking a lot of
stuff.
I think you had mentioned thatearlier.

Absolutely.
I mean, it was kind of a forcekind of thing that I had to do.
I actually ended up atSacramento, so Sacramento
Veterans Resource Center, whichwas a 90 day like a rehab kind
of thing.
I don't consider myself analcoholic by all means, cause I
don't like right now I don'tdrink cause I'm got some kidney
stuff after the dehydration partof veterans, you know but I

(01:03:52):
don't have to drink to survive.
But what I did learn in that isthat I needed to get help for my
anger, my PTS.
I needed to realize that I hadit, and I think the VA pushed me
into that because I think atthat point I don't know if I was
close to homelessness, but Ijust didn't care where I lived.

(01:04:12):
I didn't care.
It's like whatever.
My wife passed away is likewhatever.
I didn't have the bestrelationship with her family, so
it was just like one of those.
It was just the odd.
Everything just spiraled out ofcontrol and so I was like all
right, they saw it that I neededhelp and I was just trying to
get my disability rating changed, and so I was going through a
lot of different things andafter that and what I learned

(01:04:36):
was that I can't do everythingby myself and I finally got a
therapist that and she workedfor me from my childhood to
present and that was the firsttime.
Cause military doctors, I hateto say it, they start with your
military career, like thepsychiatrist, I have a great
psychiatrist in the and Maui.
She started with my childhoodas well and a lot of them start

(01:04:59):
with your problem today notwhere it came from, but where it
stem.
What's going on right now?
Because Oprah has a book I readit's like, where I can't
remember the name, but it's areally good read about it's
where you came from.
It's not what happened to you.
That's what it's called, thebook called, and I'm not
plugging in Oprah, but I thinkit is a really good read Cause I

(01:05:23):
was like it really brought meback to my first therapist that
talked to me about what happenedin your childhood that made you
who you are, and that themilitary literally hid all that
and all the things I was doing.
It masked my problems.
It didn't.
They gave me a rating for myPTSD because of what happened to

(01:05:46):
me in the military, not whathappened to me as a childhood,
in my childhood, or that I camefrom a war or a truck country.
They did it because you did goto war, but it took a fight,
like it was a fight and it tookme, instead of the normal, like
normal two years maybe.
It took almost seven years toget my 100% and it was a

(01:06:08):
struggle because it was like Ihad to open a lot of wounds and
but it was interesting in my inthe time, talking to all these
psychiatrists and mental healthpeople, it was like, oh, yeah,
yeah, yeah, you're a prettyfucked up kid.
It's like, yeah, probably, butit made me a better person.
And it did like I can't, like Idon't.

(01:06:30):
I see a therapist now.
I haven't seen him in a bit,but I go back to Maui and Napoli
start seeing another one.
But I just, you know this issomething you wanna talk.
You know what you need to talkto somebody that's you know it's
not biased.
You know your friends wannahelp you, like I wanna help my
friends.
I can't help my friends, like,and I had a conversation with a
good friend here in Fort Collinsand I felt bad because I felt

(01:06:53):
like she personally felt that Iwas.
She thought I thought she wasbroken.
I was like no, I didn't, I justwanted help because you're
married to a, you know, a friendof mine, a Marine, right, you
know, fell a veteran and youknow I was like and I you see
all these red flags, you know,and stuff like that, and I love
them both and but it's just like, oh yeah, maybe I was feeling
that I could help guide theminto a direction of do you need

(01:07:17):
to get help?
Like, because it's not gonnaend well and I see that it
worries me, but I think that'sjust me being empathetic and
having this compassion to be abetter person and help people.
Sometimes it kind of backfireson me, but we're still friends.
I'm just still really goodfriends and I try to step away
out of that arena so they canfigure out for themselves.

(01:07:38):
But it is disheartening to seeit.
See the folk.
You know what's happeningbecause you wanna help, but I've
learned that I can't, I can't,I can't.
I can't help everybody.
For sure.
I can help everybody who wantsme to help them, and most
disaster survivors want us tohelp them as much as we can.

Well, and going back to what you had said earlier,
just it's, you've gotta helpyourself first and foremost, and
you've gotta start there.
And to thank you so much fortaking some time and jumping on
and just sharing your story.
You're just such an incredible,incredible person.
It's really just a privilege totalk to you and I look forward

(01:08:19):
to hopefully some moreconversations in the future.
And I'd love to ask you, as wekind of wrap this one up, what
advice would you have to anyveterans that are listening I
know you've shared a lot andjust anybody listening what
thoughts, advice, parting wordsdo you have for anybody?

I think one of the biggest things I'm gonna get a
tattoo, because everybody says,oh, you should get a tattoo off
the venerable community.
And I said yeah, because I havetattoos that mean something to
me and I have this one.
That was it was a quote, notreally a quote, it was saying
two words.
She was a psychiatrist and whenI first started Team Rubicon
and I was like I was very rougharound the edges when I first

(01:08:57):
started Team Rubicon, cause youcould be cause veterans, you're
like knife handing and like whatare you doing?
Blah, blah, blah.
Not.
The point was being a dick topeople, because that's one of
our things don't be a dick.
That's our number one rule.
But people just didn't get meand I talked to her.
I said, hey, what can theychange about me to make people
look at me differently and notfeel that I'm being

(01:09:18):
disrespectful to them oranything?
And she basically told meabsolutely nothing.
You don't make people feel theway you do.
They do they feel the way theydo because that's how they feel.
And I have a tattoo on my armto remind me every day Dr Del
Caprini, who's a mentor to meand has helped me with some

(01:09:38):
other veterans, and I was like,wow, that's amazing.
It's like absolutely nothing.
And it's like it resonates withme and I put that on my arm
when I'm.
When I was having some issuesearlier a couple of years ago, I
was like, ah, right after theUkraine, I felt like I was,
because it was a war zone.
So I felt like I was back inthat weird situation and I had

(01:10:00):
friends that were just I justdidn't weren't getting along
with them, and so it's like youknow what?
Absolutely nothing.
And I had to remember thatabsolutely nothing.
But another Latin phrase whichI really like is the momento
momento worry.
It means that we remember thatyou will die, you would live.

(01:10:22):
It serves a reminder of humanmortality and transient nature
of life.
I encourage individuals to livein the present and value every
moment.
That's my next tattoo.
It's because I truly believethat's.
It's like huh, people havewalked for me and people will

(01:10:44):
walk after me.
And if you look at TikTok andstuff like that, so am I gonna
be alive in 2032?
Who knows?
Right, that's 10 more years.
I hopefully.
But what legacy are you gonnaleave behind with your friends?
Are they gonna be?
I want people to think.
I want people to be honest inmy funeral, which is not gonna
be really a big one.

(01:11:04):
But I want people to be honestwhen they say well, yeah, sue
was a dickhead sometimes.
You know, sue was one of thebest humans I've ever met.
Sue was blah, blah, blah.
But for me it doesn't matter ifthey say it now or say it later
in my death, but I want peopleto understand that I try to be a
good human.
Everybody should try to do that.

(01:11:25):
So that's what I leave withevery veteran that's trying to
struggle, that's struggling outthere, and women veterans have
it kind of worse off.
I truly believe that, but onlybecause we have to be better
than our male counterparts.
Can you just?

I would love to hear some more about that.
As obviously not a woman, Iwould love to understand more
about what that means tostruggle more as a female
veteran.

Because we have to be strong.
We've always been stronger thanmen.
Nothing wrong with men, butwomen have always had to be
stronger because they don't getthe same respect, especially in
the military.
It was always such harassmentthere was always.
If you're not sleeping withthem, then you're a slut.
You're all kind of name shaming, right, or they didn't let you
participate because you were afemale so they didn't think you

(01:12:15):
could do it.
But I think the biggest part ofit was that there was not
enough jobs at my time when Iwas in that field, roles that I
would rather been.
I mean, I'd been loved to be atanker, that'd been fun, you
know because I rode around in afew of them.
But I truly believe that youknow we're.

(01:12:37):
We've lost care in the VA system, which I'm glad.
I have a good friend that'spart of that whole women's
veterans movement in the VA andshe wants to know what our
problems are.
It's like when we say we want awomen's clinic doesn't mean
that I want a man doctor in awomen's clinic.
Men don't understand women.
Sorry, but they don't.
They don't understand what ourneeds are medically, physically,

(01:13:00):
maybe mentally sometimes, butmaybe it's uncomfortable because
a lot of women were sexharassed.
It's huge Suicide rate in themilitary for women.
It was a little higher lastyear than it was in the last few
years, but it's because theyhave to be strong and I was

(01:13:22):
talking to friends last night.
Women have to be stronger thanthey were in the VA.
Women have to be stronger justbecause they had a child, they
might have a child and they're asingle mother Not that I'm
saying that men are not singlefathers or parents, but they
gave birth to these kids.
You, if you're a woman and gavebirth, I admire you 100%.

(01:13:44):
I don't want to do it.
It's like I thought carrying a12 pound rug for 713 kilometers
was bad.
Nope, I don't want to do that.
But I think women, I thinkwe're slowly getting there.
I mean, I'm not.
I'm not.
I don't have platforms.
My persona is not being aveteran.

(01:14:04):
My persona is not being gay.
My persona is not being alogistics person in T-Rergon
helping people in disasters.
My platform is just beingbetter than I was yesterday and
I think we have to look at that.
So if we focus on the world welive in or the or our typing

(01:14:29):
that the world sees us, thenwe're not focusing on the real
problem out there.
The real problem is that, oneagain, you have to fix yourself
and figure out that you knowwhat.
You're still a great personeven though you're a female in a
man's world.
You know there's friends thatare CEOs, companies, there's
friends that are like way upthere in the RAN Corporation,

(01:14:51):
and you know.
But what I found reallyinteresting is that I belong to
an organization that there's onefemale in a higher tier
leadership position that canactually make a decision in a,
in a bro club, and I.
That's part of one thing I justdon't understand.

(01:15:13):
I that I blows my mind.
We're in 2023 and this is theorganization I'm like.
How is that possible?
Like it's like and and it'sstill to this day.
I'm not saying that every mantreats a woman disrespectfully,
but women have to be stronger tobe able to survive in had to

(01:15:34):
survive in the military, had toovercome.
Men aren't.
Yeah, men are sexual harassed.
Sure, absolutely.
There are men that have beenraped.
Absolutely, who have, you know,military sexual trauma?
Absolutely, but it's more womenthat have to face that, because
it doesn't matter what you door did in the military, it's

(01:15:54):
what it's kind of like.
Sometimes I felt like it's whatyou didn't do, like, oh I, you
didn't come on to my advances oryou didn't, you know whatever.
And blah, blah, blah.
I'm like huh, and it puts youin a different mindset.
Like, how can I, how can I be abetter person when, every,
every time I turn around, I'mgetting knocked off this, this

(01:16:15):
thing that I'm trying to build,because you have a job that the
point system is 350 and you getout, you get promoted before I
do?
How, how is that?
Okay, it's like this, becausethere was very limited jobs in
the military for women and thankGod we're, we're all better now
.
But I think there's still a big,huge struggle within the

(01:16:35):
military, within just in theworld itself, in the you know
corporate world, to thenonprofit world, to the you know
the VA world Still a hugedisconnect of how can we treat
these women veterans better, howcan we treat them better in the
workplace, how can we not havethe?
You know all these big moguls,hollywood moguls, treat women

(01:17:01):
the way they did, and women feltthey had to, you know, scared
to death, not, you know, didn'twant to.
But again, it's about yourinsecurities too, your
insecurities.
You wanted to be well known,you wanted to be an actor.
You wanted to do this, but I'mnot saying it's your fault that
you had to, you know, endurethis traumatic situation to get

(01:17:27):
ahead, because that person wascompletely, 100% the male part,
but there's also women out there, so I'm not male bashing at all
.
I'm just saying that's why Ithink women veterans are
stronger than the malecounterparts, because we focus
on we want to get better for ourchildren, or they want to get
better for their children Idon't have any but or they want

(01:17:48):
to get better for themselves.
They want to progress, theywant to get on a higher tier of
in their jobs.
It's not about the money, it'sabout making a statement that I
am as good as my malecounterpart.
And it was always you know thisbig, you know thing of bricks
on your head every time youtried to do that, or at least

(01:18:10):
back in the day when I was in.
And I think the VA needs toreally get a grip on the women
and how to treat a woman veteranin the right setting, because
you don't know what the femalehas gone through in their career
.
Maybe they don't want a maledoctor.
You know, I don't want a maledoctor and I didn't go through

(01:18:31):
half the stuff some of my femalecounterparts did, but it's
almost like they don't listen.
It's like one ear out the other.
So let's start listening.
I think if I can tell anythingto the VA system or anybody in
the world, it's like, look,let's start listening to these
women.
They actually have something tosay that's not about, oh well,
the you know, the Me Toomovement or this, that and the
other, and I think we forgetthat within ourselves.

(01:18:57):
It's like you know we are.
We can be better than ourcounterparts, or we can work
alongside our counterparts andbe better or be in the same rank
structure, like because there'sa lot of really bad ass women
out there.
I mean, just like that one galthat has her own clothing line.
I mean she saw a problem andshe's fixing it, so that's

(01:19:19):
really cool, right, and I thinkthat's where I hope your podcast
will start.
You know talking about with morewomen veterans, about you know
what was their stand and stufflike that.
I just think it's so weird thatwe're you know we're still
there in 2023.
I'm like, why are we still here, being pushed aside Like it was

(01:19:41):
nothing?
But again, I'm not a platformkind of person because everybody
asks oh, who do you vote for?
So it's like, well, first, noneof your business and I don't
really care.
And two, that's not whatdefines me.
What defines me is what I donow and in the future and do

(01:20:01):
getting better at it, gettingbetter at it and being a good
human.
That's what defines me.
So hopefully, this podcast will, you know, help some of the,
some women veterans, some maleveterans, and you know, my
friends go, oh, my gosh, maybeshe's got some.
Really my friends.
I was like, oh, you got greatideas, sue.
I was like, why don't you havea lot of great ideas?

(01:20:22):
This is what I'm going to do,but I will eventually.

I appreciate you sharing everything there.
For me, that's one that foranybody that's willing to share,
I just appreciate being able tolisten and understand more,
because it's just stuff thatthat I just can't speak to you
because, you know, I had my, mytime in and it wasn't I'm not a
woman and I didn't have to dealwith, with what was done and I

(01:20:49):
think that what's interesting tome is how much I learned and
grow.
You know, you mentionedCatherine and her clothing line
and the stuff that she mentionedjust kind of blew me away.
I was like I would have never,I would have never thought about
that, and so that's what Iappreciate is just the learning
and the growth and understandingmore about it.
And I completely agree withwhat you said about listening to

(01:21:11):
what's going on, because I theysay this step one for for
helping or changing any area ofour lives or changing any.
There's just the awareness thathey, this is actually, this is
a real thing, it's not a made upthing.
This thing is happening and nowwe need to understand what we
can do to shift and to change it.
So absolutely.

I think it's one step at a time, Like the grimo
for me is one step at a time.
I can't change the worldtomorrow.
I'm not going to change the.
I definitely not going tochange the world before I die.
I can change a person in thisworld or people, but I'll do
what I can.

I really I think you're doing a ton to lead the
way for, for veterans and forjust people in general.
You're an amazing person, sue.
Thank you so much for forstepping on and just sharing
your time.

Well, thanks for having me Absolutely Love to
come back anytime.

Absolutely, I'll have you back on, thank you.

All right, take care.

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|int| Forging the Path to Healing: Sue Johnson's Journey from Vietnam to Veterans' Advocate | Ep 94

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}|int| Forging the Path to Healing: Sue Johnson's Journey from Vietnam to Veterans' Advocate | Ep 94