|int| From Attempted Suicide to Physically Fit and Mentally Sound w/ Lieutenant Commander Dave Snell | Ep 91 - On Your Lead

Episode Transcript
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Thad David (00:00):
Welcome to another episode.
I'm here today with Dave Snell,a retired Lieutenant Commander
from the Navy.
How are you doing, dave?

Dave Snell (00:08):
Doing great.
Thank you, Sam.
Pleasure to be here.

Thad David (00:10):
Dave, I'm.
It is an honor to have you on.
I've heard your story, I'velistened to some of it and just
from getting to know you, I'mreally, really excited to unpack
it and just to learn from you.
I've been very anxious to jumpinto this.
Yeah, if you could, just Verymuch, well, thank you.
Thank you for doing everythingthat you're currently doing to
help veterans.
It's pretty amazing stuff.

(00:32):
Just to give everybody someinsight into you, what did your
military careers look like?
What did you do in the military.

Dave Snell (00:40):
Yeah, I went to the ROTC program at Georgia Tech and
commissioned out of there inJune of 1995.
I was a surface warfare officer.
I knew that I was always goingto be a cryptologist and after a
sea tour I became acryptologist.
I did a tour at Fort Corden,georgia.

(01:02):
It was my first introduction tojoint work very early in my
career.
I ended up back at sea againone more time, which led to some
post-traumatic stress issueswhich sent me back to the
cryptologic community with acouple of tours at the National
Security Agency, where Ideployed to Afghanistan and Iraq

(01:25):
supporting special operationscommunity in particular.
And then it led to six yearsout in the Pacific with special
operations command, pacific andthe Pacific Fleet, studying
China, and then back here toNorfolk, virginia, where I
retired in 2015 as the directorof special technical operations.
So I've had a varied careerwith a lot of different

(01:50):
opportunities.
It was a very exciting time.

Thad David (01:54):
Yeah, it sounds like a very exciting time.
What did you do and how was itin that six-year period?
That peaked my interest whenyou said studying China for six
years.
What was that like?
Just that whole experience?

Dave Snell (02:07):
It was very interesting.
We were at a different time.
This is 2006 to 2012.
So we were very heavy into Iraq, afghanistan, the Surges, so it
was really getting a littleless, or not even a little.
It was getting a lot lessattention.
So we were trying to shape thebattlefield at the time without
a lot of attention fromWashington DC, and gave me a

(02:32):
great opportunity to understandhow China operates and predict
where they were going to begoing and where they've come.
Now we're talking 10 yearsafter I left there, 11 years
later.
Now, caveat that when I was atSOC PAC, we were terrorism
focused but we always had asupport mission for China.

(02:53):
So I've kept my year to theground on China for a very long
time and frankly I have to bequite honest, I've been studying
China since universities, sinceGeorgia Tech, so for over 25
years now I've in some way beenlooking at China.

Thad David (03:13):
Is that what led you in the military to end up over
in that region, because you hadbeen studying it so long?

Dave Snell (03:20):
Actually no.
So my dad was a cryptologist.
Long story short is, my dadwent to Georgia Tech.
Same ROTC unit, same secretarywas there when my freshman year
is when he graduated Ms BarbaraHale, believe it or not, I'll
never forget her name.
He commissioned me at GeorgiaTech.

(03:43):
He was a surface warfareofficer that went to Georgia,
went cryptology.
So I followed in my dad'sfootsteps almost lockstep.
And the last connection I'llmake is that we both got married
.
We're both divorced and oursecond wives were both from
Hawaii.
So we're right on the same pathwith each other.

(04:04):
And that's what got me into theNavy.
Okay, third generation military.
My grandfather and some of histwo of his brothers were in the
military World War II, my dadand his brother and then myself.
Really, you know when your,when your father's a
cryptologist, he's out onsubmarines and you can't really

(04:25):
talk about what he's doing ingeneral because you don't know
it's classified.
It kind of piqued my interestand you know I always joke,
especially as we go intoVeterans Day weekend here.
I know this will be presentedlater, but it really wasn't
service, because I was having somuch fun because I saw what my

(04:45):
dad was doing and it's justreally, you know a lot of, a lot
of excitement, you know, to godo the job.

Thad David (04:55):
Oh yeah, it's a ton of excitement.
It sounds like it was a blastfor you to be able to do that,
and I'd imagine it had to be aunique feeling to just kind of
peel back that you know, just asa kid, not knowing what he was
doing, and then, as you'refollowing in his footsteps, to
kind of see a little bit aboutwhat that life looked like.

Dave Snell (05:13):
It's really funny because I got so.
By the time I got in we were inIraq, afghanistan.
I didn't get to go on thesubmarines like he did, but I
was right into some of the sameprograms that he was and I
didn't know his exact missions.
But it gave me an insight intowhat he was doing, how he was
doing it.
And there's a book that cameout in 1998, and I was going to

(05:38):
cryptology school called whyMan's Bluff, and it's about the
submarine Cold War efforts thatwe had against the Soviets.
And he read it and he calls meup.
He's like, yeah, I found out Ihave a new award that I didn't
know I got for a mission that'sin the book and I'm like, oh,
let me go find it.
Wow, you know, it was reallyreally a good parallel in our

(06:00):
lives to be able to understandwhat he did.
And he understood what I wasdoing when I would go to the
desert, while he didn't know thedetails.
He looked at me one time wasabout to go to Iraq and he said,
oh, I know where you're goingand I know what you're, who
you're working for, and I waslike, well, yeah, how do you
know that?
He said, well, the address yougave me is in the news and I was

(06:23):
like no, it's not, it's it's,but really it was.
It was Task Force X, battalionY, which was the task force we
were really in, and it was allover the news, right, but it was
one of those units that we'renot supposed to talk about.
Got it?
He knew exactly who we weregoing after.
In fact he, he called me, or hetexted me, rather, june, june

(06:48):
of 2006, and told me I bet youyou're pretty happy right now,
and I hadn't even.
I was in Hawaii.
Now, six hours behind him, andhe tells me that Abu Musaib
al-Zarkawi was killed and I said, well, how do you know that I
was looking for him?
He goes, dave, come on, we wentthrough this Task Force thing
before he knew.
I knew who we were hunting andI remember waking up that

(07:11):
morning.
It was five o'clock, I got thetext and I had a beer.
It was a Friday morning and Iwent into work.
Never forget that.

Thad David (07:21):
Yeah, that's really really cool that you were able
to share that with him.
I'm sure that he absolutelyloved it and, from his side,
kind of getting to relive someof what he did as well, and
that's a special thing.
And he said something earlierthat piqued my interest and I
know we can't go too deep intothe weeds with it for probably
more than one reason, but I'mcurious.

(07:42):
You said you were mentionedearlier that you were predicting
, that you'll try to predictwhat China was doing, and that
was, you know, 10 years ago.
And without getting to or moredetailed than you want to, how
accurate were your predictions?
You know, as you know, thatthat's in the past.

Dave Snell (07:59):
Well, I was classified about what we were
thinking.
I mean, we're seeing.
I mean, if you look at the 2008Beijing Olympics, we knew that
they were a new world power.
You know there was their comingout party.
We predicted then they weregoing to grow exponentially.

(08:19):
We knew and it was in the news.
It wasn't even.
There's some I guess there aresome predictions I won't get
into, obviously but you know, weknew that this was where they
were going.
We knew the islands were goingto be built in the South China
Sea.
We knew they were going tomilitarize them.
We could see all these thingshappening at multiple levels,

(08:42):
but even in the press it wasalmost blatant.
The Chinese Communist Party isa different animal altogether.
It's similar to the Soviets,but they have much more
organized and I think,personally, professionally, I
think it's a much more nefariouspurpose in their intent than

(09:04):
the Soviets ever were.
You know, for their time.

Thad David (09:10):
And that's a bold statement considering what's
going on right now.
You're saying that they're muchmore nefarious, so I mean that
sounds like it has a lot ofpotential to our future.
Will be very interesting withChina.

Dave Snell (09:25):
Yeah, I think I have .
I didn't know we're going to godown this path.
It's great, don't get me wrong.
I love it.
You know, I like, if you know,a lot of the books behind me are
historical.
I'm very, I consider myself anamateur historian.
If you look at the way World Warthis is something we were

(09:47):
joking.
I was a contractor for a littlebit till earlier this year and
Manchuria was really the startof World War II, the Japanese
invading China.
And if you look at parallels,we were saying that well,
instead of you know, and ourbigger threat from our
perspective was in the West andin Nazi Germany and the Soviets

(10:09):
to a lesser degree because wesaw them, you know, joining
hands for a little bit in thelate 30s.
Well, if we look at Georgiatoday or Ukraine today, it's
just a reverse China is ournumber one threat, not Nazi
Germany.
So are we starting to see, youknow, especially with Israel and

(10:34):
Iran being a proxy for you know, using proxies in that effort,
are we starting to see parallelsinto history that we're heading
down another path Now withChina?
Their best bet is to not go towar but to do it through what we
call irregular warfare.
You know methodologies.

(10:54):
You know not having to go towar.
Sun Tzuyan thinking.
Just like with Taiwan, theirbest bet is not to fight but to
subdue them through othermethods.
Why is China's best bet to notgo to war?
Well, they can do it through away that doesn't look aggressive
outright, without killinganybody, creating a negative

(11:19):
perception of them in thepopulace.
Hey, we just got to.
You know, we got to absorb.
We joined them willingly,taiwan in particular, I'm
thinking.
Got it and they can maintaintheir military balance in their
favor.
They don't lose anybody.
That makes a lot of sense.

Thad David (11:35):
I appreciate you sharing some of your wisdom with
us.
I don't know, but just somethoughts that you know I'm not.

Dave Snell (11:43):
There are guys who are looking at this.
I got some friends up in thePentagon who are looking at this
every single day.
I'm just throwing my little twobits to them and they're just
like.
You know I'm not my little twobits to them and they're not
throwing me out the window.
You know saying I'm crazy, butat the same time I'm not on the

(12:03):
inside anymore either.

Thad David (12:06):
I just started this interesting book and it goes
through because everybody'slooking for what's going to
change and what's the next bigchange.
What's the next big thing inthis book that just came out a
few days ago and I'm thoroughlyenjoying it it's called Same as
Ever.
And it goes through, whatdoesn't change, what will never

(12:27):
change from it.
It was the same 500 years ago,same as today and 500 years
it'll be the same and I love howyou brought up history, because
that's what they do in thisbook is like what are the
comparables that this leads to?
This leads to this, and that'sgoing to happen every time and
that's what's never going tochange, and so I really
appreciate how you shared, youknow, the basis for your

(12:50):
knowledge.

Dave Snell (12:50):
Yeah, I mean, if you also look at China, they're
very much about changing thedynamic of the world order.
They're usurping what you know,the Washington paper I think it
was a Washington paper, not theWashington conference.
Anyway, there's a Bretton Woods.
I'm mixing things up in my head, I apologize.

(13:12):
You know how we established thenew world order after World War
II, that the US dollar in theWest and how we would control
economics markets.
You know culture.
They're trying to turn that onits head and they've been
outright about it.
And if you go back to the 1920sstill trying to find the exact

(13:34):
time he said it.
But Mao even said the goal ofthis Chinese Communist Party is
to overtake the United States asthe future power, and it was
20s or 30s he said that.
So if you look at a lot ofpeople say that Xi Jinping is
anything but Mao Zedong and hasreason to hate Mao.

(13:57):
Mao he's, he's a, he's a miniMao.

Thad David (14:01):
A mini Mao.

Dave Snell (14:04):
You quote me on that one.

Thad David (14:06):
Yeah, no, that's that's.
It makes perfect sense and it'ssuch an interesting thing to
think about.
But at its core, and if youthink about just the way that
the world is, it would be weirdif they weren't.
You know, if we were in China,we would want a better, stronger
nation, and so, while I don'tsupport China in any way

(14:27):
whatsoever, it's just kind ofit's not a far-fetched statement
what you're saying.
So I know that I discovered youjust from hearing your story
and I appreciate you sharing alittle bit of what you did in
the military and your knowledge.
It's fascinating to me.
I think we could do a wholenother recording in that
direction.

(14:48):
And the reason I wanted to talkto you and just bring you on
because you've you've got apretty amazing story about
recovery after the military andwould you mind sharing just
whatever you're willing to share?
What did that look like?
What got you started down thatjourney and brought you to where
you are now with it?

Dave Snell (15:06):
Yeah, I mean, I'll go back to the roots and I'll
bring us up to today if youdon't mind.
Okay, please.
So I'm very open about this.
I dealt with emotional,physical, verbal, some other
abuses as a child and what Icall little tea traumas.
When we think of post-traumaticstress, we think of that.
You know, war, the battle, oreven in the civilian world.

(15:29):
You know, you see an accident,you see somebody murdered.
That's a trauma, that's a bigtea event that affects you and
at the same time we can havemicro, little tea traumas that
compound on themselves.
Yeah, you can have one andit'll ebb, but if you have
another before that first oneebbs, it'll just compounds into

(15:50):
a big tea and we can have a lotof emotional physical responses
that are the same as if we justhad one single event.
So I came into the military withsome baggage, no doubt.
Then, on my second ship thereason I went back to cryptology

(16:12):
, into the National SecurityAgency I had a captain who was
just ruthless on me, you know,just would not let up on me, and
at the same time I had a newspouse who didn't understand the
Navy and were in Japan post-911, by the way, just after 9-11.
So we're all on heightenedalert, especially in Japan,

(16:33):
against China and otherterrorist organizations down in
the Philippines and Thailand,malaysia and I ended up
attempting suicide during mytime in Japan.
I got better.
I deployed to the Middle East,like I mentioned earlier, with

(16:54):
the Special Operations community, and then I retired and then I
was lost.
I didn't have a purpose anymore.
I didn't really know what I wasgoing about doing things.
I had jobs it wasn't lack ofwork but I still hadn't dealt
with the traumas With themilitary.

(17:15):
We get help through meds oh,you're depressed, here's some
pros and cons, here's somelow-butture, whatever works for
you and we'll give you sometherapy.
And the therapy is good and Idon't fault anybody at all in
the military for this.
But their main focus is to getus back up to a point where

(17:36):
we're quote fit to fight.
And then they say, okay, we maynot have resolved everything,
but you're qualified to go backto sea, to go to war, to go back
to mission if you will.
Okay, and then it's kind oftill the next time.
And I had a couple of ups anddowns through my career and it

(17:56):
was the pandemic.
Just before the pandemic I'dleft my family.
I was just depressed.
I had no intention ofcommitting suicide, but I
ideated which is a big piece andI think a lot of folks go
through every day.
But when we get to a constantideation it becomes very

(18:17):
disturbing.
It's not the right word, butworrisome might be a better word
.
I knew I would never, wouldagain.
I never will try again.
I have a beautiful, you know,15-year-old daughter who I would
never in a million years wantto hurt like that.
So just as the pandemic waskicking off, I had a new

(18:37):
therapist and she said stoplying to me, stop BSing me.
And I said what are you talkingabout?
She goes you're not lyingoutright, but you're not telling
me the whole story and untilyou do, we're never going to get
to the root, we're never goingto be able to not solve, but get

(18:57):
you beyond the trumps.
I said, oh, okay, well, so wetried some new therapies that
didn't quite work, but got alittle bit further.
You know, through my honesty andit was December 29th of 2019,
again just prior to the pandemicI got on a scale and I was over

(19:23):
200 pounds and that was anumber I said I will never get
above.
And I called my old skipper oneof my old skippers and he had
become a health coach afterrunning a number of triathlons
himself.
He said I'm just too heavy, Ineed to lose weight.
So he did.
He lost 50 pounds and now heruns, you know, lots of

(19:43):
marathons.
I called him up and he got meon a weight loss program.
Now it doesn't look like it now, but I was.
I dropped 50 pounds, which was20 pounds ago.
I've gained 20 of it back, soI'm about the weight I was when
I retired.
But I look thinner, I lookhealthier, I'm holding it better

(20:06):
than I was eight and a halfyears ago when I retired and I
was step one.
I got on the physical side ofdiet, exercise and the impacts
that those have on your brainand your mood and your mentality
and your depressive state orexcitement.
My therapist got me on a newtreatment for me.

(20:28):
Well, it's called neurostimulation and Vegas nerve
reset.
She did these two thingssimultaneously and the nervous,
the the neuro stimulation is.
Our brain operates on differentfrequencies in different parts
of our brains at differentspeeds.
If it's going too fast, thendifferent parts of our brain is

(20:52):
anxious.
We're anticipating the future,we're worried it's going too
slow, we're depressed and afterdoing a brain map on the four
different frequencies our brainworks at, they came up with a
treatment plan and said Okay,we're going to, we're going to
find a way to get back to middleor as close to middle as we can

(21:13):
.
And I tell you what the firsttime she did that, bam, I felt
better.
But it took about a year worthof these treatments once, twice
a week to build up a toleranceso that the speeds stayed where
they should.
But the real one that reallygot me that, I think, helped was

(21:35):
the Vegas nerve reset and I'mnot sure if you're familiar with
the Vegas nerve or anybody elseis, but it's the largest nerve
in our body.
It touches all your majororgans in your body and it's the
messenger to say, hey, whatstate are we in?
Fight, flight, freeze or fawn?
I think is the new.
You know, I always rememberfight, flight or freeze, but I

(21:56):
guess they've added fawn, I'msorry.
Well, I'm not sure what it is,but I've read a couple of times
these four.
But let's go with flight, fightor flight and that's your
trauma response.
You know, again, go back to bigT, little T's, these, these
things, these events that happen.
I'm not a fan of the wordtriggers, but when we get into

(22:19):
certain situations our bodystarts to react.
You know, the fight or flightstarts to kick in when we see
things that are similar to whatwe experienced to build the
trauma.
And what this does is it calmsthe Vegas nerve so that when
you're in those situations againthey don't have the visceral

(22:40):
reaction, the anger or thefreezing or the, you know, just
inability to respondappropriately.
I'll just go with that so itreally calms me down and set me
on a path that I could.
I could be in situations thatnormally would give me the

(23:00):
butterflies in your stomach,which is a Vegas nerve, you know
reaction and just go Okay, look, I can deal with this.

Thad David (23:09):
What?
What did it?
Just for, for clarity on it foranybody listening, because this
is a very interesting stuff.
What did the neuro stimulationand I know right now we're
talking about the Vegas nervereset and I'm going to ask the
same thing about that but whatis it specifically?
Because I know you said it thefirst one.
You instantly felt better andthen it took about a year, which

(23:29):
makes sense, but what is?
What is that?
What did they do?

Dave Snell (23:33):
All they did was put a couple of electrodes right
behind my ears and a couple onthe back of my head and it's I
always liken it to.
I'm I'm sure people arefamiliar with the stem Easton or
Sten's unit for muscle, whereit just kind of shocks and the
muscle kind of contracts andgets relaxed afterwards.

(23:55):
It's the same concept, it's youknow, these two, these two you
know just kind of a frequency,pulsing rate that over time the
brain starts to realize okay, Ican calm down or I need to speed
up, depending on where they'veput them and what frequency they

(24:17):
.
I'm not sure the exact details.
I'm not a I was a cryptologistbut I'm not that technical on
this.

Thad David (24:23):
Yeah, no, I mean just for anybody listening might
want to go check it out that itmight remove some of the
barriers.
If they don't know what youknow, yeah, it's just, I would
just.

Dave Snell (24:32):
The basic answer is it's like a Sten's unit or 10's
unit on your muscles, but you'redoing it to your brain and the
vagus nerve reset is even easier.
They put little I call themmagnets or magnetrons of some
sort little black boxes thatthey fit you with a felt head

(24:55):
covering that comes down yourchest and they put these on with
Velcro, two on each side ofyour head, two on your collar
bone, because that's the closestthe vagus nerve comes to your
surface, and then two rightunder your rib cage and you sit
there for about 20 minutes andyou just.

(25:17):
I had a normal session oftherapy with my therapist and
that was it.
Wow, it was an hour.
Like I said, twice a week,sometimes once, depending on how
bad, or I don't even want tosay how bad, but how much
therapy, you know how muchrecovery you need.
It could be twice a week.

(25:39):
You know, in my case and I don'tlike to compare traumas you
know I'm this bad, you're thisbad or I went through that.
You can't be that bad.
I went through worse.
That's not healthy for anybodybecause it's any trauma any
person goes through.
Is that person's trauma?

(26:00):
You and I could be in the samecombat situation, but I end up
with post traumatic stress andyou go out and party that night.
It's just our bodies, differentreactions based on our
experiences in the past, thataffect how that particular event
affects us, and I don't want tosay that someone is more is

(26:22):
worse off than I am or betterthan I am.
They're there, they're wherethey are and that's where they
are.

Thad David (26:28):
Well, it's definitely.
Then there's no prize fortrying to compare it anyway.
You know it's not like what'sthe point.
You know the point is foreverybody to get into a good
headspace, so it really doesn'tmatter where you're at
comparatively.
And that was one thing thatthat struck me after getting out
, because now we saw, we sawquite a bit of stuff.
I did the initial invasion,iraq.

(26:49):
I was back a year afterwardsand it was interesting to see
how all of our good friends, howeverybody managed everything
very differently.
And it was that we all saw thesame things but every many
managed it differently.
And I wonder how much of it.
You mentioned the little t, bigt and the compounding effects
of it and it made me think of,you know, the.

(27:12):
It's almost like a square root,like they multiply, and it's
like a bunch of little t'sequals equals a big interest in
a bank.

Dave Snell (27:20):
It's compounding.
You know again, a little bitmay ebb, but the next one's
going to compound on top of theother one before it and that
that has its effects and peopledon't realize them, because
there's such subtle eventshappening in our lives that we

(27:41):
don't realize what's going on.

Thad David (27:43):
Well, and it made me think of it because I heard
about it with pain, just a painthreshold, but also a trauma
threshold, and the thing thatgave me clarity with it was just
the thought that and this isI'm going to use a positive
thing to describe a negative,and so I don't want to mix those
up.
But if you're going to go workout, you know when I first
started working out, 50 pounddumbbells, that was a lot.

Dave Snell (28:04):
Yeah.

Thad David (28:05):
Now 100 pounds.
I'm doing incline with 100pounds.
Well, that's my a lot, whereas50 is not even a warm up for me.
And on the opposite end, ifyou've got a bunch of that stuff
, that what seems like a lot toyou, it's not a comparable thing
because everybody's in adifferent space with it.

Dave Snell (28:21):
And the goal at the end is to help us look at it.
Absolutely brilliant.

Thad David (28:24):
Everybody's in a different space and, again, we
just want to help each other.
So I thank you for sharing that.
So you just went to and I wouldsay just as because most people
don't go to therapy, and so Idon't want to minimize it
because I think it's great thatyou stepped into it Is that
something?
If somebody was interested inexploring that neuro stimulation
, the vagus nerve reset, whendid you find a therapist?

(28:45):
Where should they go?
Is that a VA thing?
Outside of the VA?

Dave Snell (28:49):
I think it's.
I think it's a.
Well, how's this?
You know, being a retiree, I'mon TriCare.
Tricare covers it, okay.
First, it's a matter of findingthe right therapist who provides
it, and I just happened to lookinto it.
To be honest with you, I wasseeing my therapist for about.
Let me go back a step.
There's another treatment whichis much easier to find these

(29:11):
days is eye movement,disassociation and reprogramming
, emdr, and a lot of therapistsare doing that these days.
And I just lucked out with afriend of mine's.
Wife was friends with thistherapist back in high school,

(29:32):
or maybe oh, you know what itwas was.
My friend's wife was had datedmy therapist husband back in
high school, so they're local tothis area, they knew each other
for 30 years.
And she said why don't you callup Lindsay and she can help you
out?
And Lindsay was a miracleworker, in my opinion, because
and I say that because she jokedthat we were going to work a

(29:54):
miracle on my brain and get meback to normal normal whatever
that is, or less traumaticresponses, anyway.
So I started with her in Julyof 19.
And she happened six monthslater to change practices and
the practice she went to happento offer a neuro stimulation of

(30:18):
vagus nerve reset.
So you want to find I think theeasiest way to sum this up is
you want to find a therapistthat is focused on brain
function more than just therapyfor talk.
And the reason I'm saying itthat way is because the places
I've noticed that talk aboutneuro stimulation have brain

(30:43):
somewhere in their, theircompany name, as opposed to just
.
I'm a licensed social worker,therapist or counselor.
I really don't know how to tellsomebody to go find the right
people.
You got to do some research tosay hey, and I will say this
with any therapist talk to thembefore you go there and ask them

(31:04):
what kind of therapies theyprovide.
Are they strictly a talk therapy?
Are they strictly, or are theyalso a holistic mental health
provider?
The VA, I'm pretty sure, coversneuro stimulation, vagus nerve

(31:25):
reset.
I'd be surprised if they're not.
It's becoming a little bit moremainstream and I did some
research when I first heardabout it and it was very scant.
I couldn't find this four yearsago and I'm seeing more people
talking about it on blogs,podcasts, posts, and you can

(31:45):
find more articles about it now,I think, than you could four or
five years ago.

Thad David (31:50):
I'm going to dive deep into it and really check it
out.
It's fascinating to think about.
And I have another question.
I know you just recently gavethe step one that you had
stepped into, and I waswondering if we could go back
just slightly, because you hadmentioned that you had attempted

(32:11):
suicide and then you hadbounced that thought process
around.
Would you be comfortable withsharing some of your mindset
during that time frame?

Dave Snell (32:23):
Yeah, here, let me start with this.
I'm open to talking about justabout anything.

Thad David (32:29):
Okay.

Dave Snell (32:30):
And to anybody who's listening afterwards.
We can share how to get intouch with me.
I'm open to talking to anybody,and my goal and my why, my
meaning, which we can get intolater also is helping people
understand that there is lifebeyond these thoughts, beyond

(32:51):
the depression, to beyond theanxiety, to beyond the traumas.
There is life, there is a wayto get beyond it.
Yeah, I attempted suicide onApril 18th of 2020, or, sorry,
of 2002, mixing up my numbers, Iapologize and I had this plan

(33:18):
that I was going to take anumber of pills just before I
got on a plane back to theStates from Japan and I was just
going to fall asleep and nobodywould know until they landed in
LA.
I felt worthless.
I wasn't able to get anythingright at home.
I wasn't able to do anythingright at work.

(33:38):
People were just on my backabout everything.
I was about to get divorced.
I felt like I wasn't worthy.
There was no other way out fromthis.
At the time, it felt like itwas the right answer.
Now it was definitely wouldhave been the long-term solution

(34:01):
to a short-term problem.
Lots of people go throughdivorce.
Lots of people have trouble atwork.
There are ways out.
Again, like I said, there is alife beyond the traumas, the
depression.

Thad David (34:15):
The reason that I really appreciate you being so
open to sharing and I justwanted to make sure that, as we
dive into this, everybodylistening knows that you're very
open to sharing, becauseanytime, especially when a
suicide hits close to home witha veteran, that it's a common
thing.
I usually, if somebody reachesout and I just start talking to

(34:38):
them, the number one questionthat they ask is why didn't they
say something?
I wonder, why didn't they saysomething Just knowing that you
were there in those shoes?
That was the one question Iwould just curious to know.
Have you thought about that?
Why not reach out?
Maybe you did.
Did you reach out for help?
If not, why?

Dave Snell (34:58):
Why did you not?
Let me go back?
Two months before April 18th Ihad started seeing a therapist.
My wife at the time, my firstwife we started seeing a
counselor together, which wasreally silly because we had just
been married for eight monthsbut we had a lot of stressors

(35:20):
put on us very early in ourmarriage.
Then a therapist suggested I goon Prozac and that I had to
tell my skipper of the ship.
Hey, you need to tell him thatyou're on Prozac because you're
a tactical action officer incombat.
I would have weapons releaseauthority.
So the docs said you need totell him so he's aware at least

(35:43):
so he can keep an eye on you.
So I went and I told him andhis first response was pardon my
language, I'm just going to befrank with what he said was oh,
does this mean you're going togo walking all happy and shit
around my ship?
It was just this disconnected,inhuman, not inhuman, inhumane

(36:06):
maybe response to someone introuble, someone in distress.
So I said okay, you're ajackass, whatever, I'm just
going to go about my life andI'll get better on this.
The next underway was the worstand we pulled into Busan, south
Korea, went to some meetings,went and had dinner with the

(36:29):
South Koreans and drinks, andthe next day I had the duty,
which meant that I had to carrythe 9mm as a command duty
officer.
And I remember, sitting in mystate room, I had put the gun on
my desk.
I was just staring off in thedistance and I told myself it

(36:50):
was time to pull the trigger.
Now I don't remember, I'veblocked.
Was the gun in my head?
Was the gun in my mouth?
Was the gun in my chest?
Did I, you know, finger on thetrigger or not?
I don't remember and I don'tthink it's important for me to
try to remember.
The problem or the point wasthat I got to a point where I

(37:12):
said, well, wait a minute, Idon't know much about guns.
Be honest with you.
I fired them, I can shoot themvery well.
I don't own any yet, but I'mnot a caliber guy.
I just remember hearing storiesof 9mm going through different
types of material and I said,well, what if the bullet goes
through me and through the walland hurt somebody on the other

(37:35):
side?
And that stopped.
I didn't want to hurt anybodyelse, physically, at least,
through my attempt.
Okay, I called the doc, who wasaware I was on the meds knew I
was depressed and I said, doc,get this gun away from me, get
me off this ship.
And he sent me home.

(37:55):
I flew home to Japan from Busanand I got the treatment I needed
.
Unfortunately, it led to theApril 18th event where I did
attempt.
Now, all that to be said, bringback to your question why don't
people ask, why didn't youreach out?
Well, let me add to the April18th story was, for some reason

(38:19):
I started the pills early.
I was planning on waiting untilI got to the plane, just before
the plane, to start taking them.
I took them before I even leftYacowska and I got a cell phone
call from my office at Deseron15.
I said, hey, we need you tocome in for a minute, whatever
it was.
And I remember my buddy, jeff,who had also left my ship under

(38:41):
mental health concerns as well.
It was a very, very badenvironment on that ship at the
time.
And he looked at me and he goesyou've had a road soda, haven't
you?
I was like, yeah, I've had aroad soda, a beer.
I had them with beer.
And it was 10 o'clock in themorning and the next day when I
saw Jeff after I got out of thehospital he said I had no idea

(39:04):
you'd even tried.
I never even would havesuspected you would try.
And then the questions go whydidn't you come to me?
Why don't you talk to me?
Why don't you do this?
And the point is, when you'reat that point where there is no
other way, you've shut down orat least in my experience my

(39:26):
attempt and, having talked toseveral others who have
attempted, you don't want tohear what they have to say, you
don't think you can go to themand you've already put in a
process in your mind.
This is going to happen and ifI don't, then it's a failure.
And you don't want to failagain, because sometimes that's

(39:47):
what's led you to where you are.
I felt I had failed as a husband, as a department head on the
ship.
So why would I go to talk tosomebody about it?
I wanted to get away from theproblem, not to address the
problem, and it is what it istoday.
I can't change the fact.

(40:08):
I can only talk about it andtry to help others.
It's not easy to talk about,it's not fun to talk about, and
I think that's part of theproblem that we have in the
nation we need to talk about.
I don't like.
Well, we can't talk about itbecause someone might have an
idea from what you talk about.

(40:29):
No, that's the problem.
We are not talking about it,we're not addressing it, and I
think what we end up doing iswhy didn't you come talk to me,
dave?
Well, I kind of felt like.
I feel like at this point wewere blaming them.

(40:50):
Well, had you come to me, younever would have been there.
Well, let's reverse that.
Why are you know and we do thisevery month or so, or every
couple, you know, every mentalhealth awareness month.
Reach out to your friends, talkto them, say hi, we lose
connection and then we wonderwhy they don't talk to you when

(41:12):
they go attempt suicide, and weput it on them, the suicide.
You know the person who tooktheir life.
It's not on them to come to you.
Sometimes we need to go bothways.
I'm getting a little deep there, I'm sorry.

Thad David (41:30):
No, I very much appreciate you going deep with
it.
That was my intent with askingWell, I get a little aggressive
with you know it's not.

Dave Snell (41:39):
let's stop blaming the person who attempted and
start looking internal of whydidn't I reach out to them more.
If I say I care about them, whyaren't we reaching out?
Hmm, what.

Thad David (41:51):
And then to take it one level deeper with that too,
because there's the other sideof that as well, because that
person that I'll end up talkingto usually feels horrible,
because they feel like they areto be blamed.

Dave Snell (42:06):
Yeah.

Thad David (42:07):
Because they didn't reach out.
What thoughts do you have aboutthat person that then feels the
?
I'm thinking of an instant justrecently where it was in a very
similar light, where somebodywas literally just with that
person and 10 minutes later theperson committed suicide and
then it was really weighing onthem.

Dave Snell (42:28):
Yeah.

Thad David (42:28):
And so what thoughts do you have about that guilt
that happens afterwards for theother person?

Dave Snell (42:34):
For the person who survived.
Even Let me break down what youjust said too.
If let's say, you and I talkand then 10 minutes later I go
and attempt suicide or killmyself and I don't like commit
suicide because it's morelegalese in there and it's
negative connotation let's say Itake my life here, 10 minutes

(42:56):
after this, at that point in mymind I've already made my
decision.
Nothing you're going to say isgoing to change it.
So to me the guilt it's not,it's that's a tough one.
That and I'm sorry for thepauses and the Please take your

(43:17):
time.
I've lost guys to suicide andI've said why didn't they talk
to me?
And I've had to come to theharsh realization that nothing I
would have done could havechanged it.
And I can't dwell on it.
And what I've learned in thelast four years is something I

(43:38):
just posted on LinkedIn, someoneelse's post.
I can only live into now.
I can't let regrets weigh medown day to day and, yes, I miss
my brothers who I've lost insisters and I think about them
and at the same time I know Ihave to go on and live.
Today Someone attempts suicide,someone takes their life.

(44:02):
I can't change the fact and Iwish they would have come talk
to me sooner, before they gotinto that Go.
No go, because once you getinto that go, it's, it's.
It's not always certain, butit's not going to be changing
unless something drasticallychanges in those circumstances.

(44:23):
And it's harsh, it's a toughtopic and I and I hate it that
we have To talk about it soharshly and yet we've we've
pushed it off so long in societyas a.
That person was sick.
That person was ill, thatperson was selfish.
Let me tell you a side story, ifI may, please.

(44:45):
That was 2002, april.
I went home to my dad's placeMom and dad's and my dad and
step mom in Florida forChristmas that year and I don't
think my dad intended this, itjust came out.
Anybody who commits suicide isa effing coward.
And I responded to him.
I said well, if you then andyou could see a little bit of

(45:09):
well.
I forgot what he did Because mymother and my sister are both
attempted.
My real mother, who I haven'tspoken to in many, many, many
years, have both attempted aswell, and I think that's where
he was coming from.
I don't think he wasremembering or putting in
together that I had tried thatyear and I've noticed even.

(45:32):
You know it's a generationalthing, yes, but At the same time
I've noticed within him and hisfriends and a few others and
that generation hey, we werewrong.
You know it's not cowardly.
You're hurting, you're sick,there's something there.
There are cowardly attempts.
I get it.
You know I don't want to dealwith going to prison because I

(45:54):
failed and I got caught.
I did something illegal and gotcaught.
Well, go do your punishment.
I just hope that anybody whothinks that they're not good
enough, that they have failed,that they don't have a meaning
or purpose anymore, realize thatthere is a way out.

(46:16):
And again, that's where I'mhappy to talk to anybody, 24
seven, get them the help theyneed professionally I'm not a
professional, let me, you know,let me caveat that it's all late
in my career to be changing100%, doing that, but I will
help anybody anywhere, anytime,because you are good enough.

(46:39):
There is a way out and it's not.
You know, I've said before heretoday, it's a short, it's a
long term solution to a shortterm problem.
The problems will end, life canstill go on.
It's a topic that that Iobviously get a little heated

(47:00):
about or passionate about.
And that's, I'll let you.
I'm sorry.

Thad David (47:06):
No, no, I was cutting you off, I was just
going to share that.
That's what I made me veryexcited to talk to you because
you're passionate about it.
Yeah, let's talk to the peoplethat are passionate about these
topics.

Dave Snell (47:17):
Yeah.
So again, if I can help anybody, I'll always go back to this.
I will help them wherever I can, because I've been to that dark
place, I've ideated since andwhen I've ideated since, I've
said, okay, time out, I need togo talk to my therapist, or even

(47:37):
just have a call with a friendand say, look, I don't know why
I'm having these thoughts.
Can we have a few minutes totalk?
And I think that if we look atour lives today, facebook is
great, instagram is great,linkedin is great for its
purpose.
They all have their purpose andpeople will say, oh well,

(48:00):
you're getting the 10%, but notthe crap that goes into that 10%
success.
But my point here is that it'sdisconnected at us from
connection, from humaninvolvement.
I'll email them, I'll text them.
No, call them, I need to.
You know, if I'm in a depressedstate, I want to hear a voice,

(48:22):
I want to hear toe, I want tohear inflection.
The text can just be I care andjust I care, just monotone, and
that's how I could take it.
But if I hear, look, I careabout you, I want you to survive
, you know there's more to it.
There's an inflection, there'sa tone, there's a hesitation,

(48:45):
there's, you can feel the voicecoming out.
That's different.
I think we've lost thathumaneness, the humanity behind
our interactions.

Thad David (48:58):
You know I had a and I want to be clear too, this is
a one example where it workedout really well and I think that
I can do a better job of thisand it's just such a soon thing
that I'd text a veteran buddy ofmine that I'd met just over the
years and I just ran.

(49:18):
I was thinking about him a lotand I was like, hey, man, I know
you're going through a bunch ofstuff and I just wanted to make
sure you're you're doing okay.
How was everything?
Is it okay if we jump on aphone call?
And he messaged back.
Well, we got on the phone twodays later and he was so.
He was like man, that was thebest possible time that and I
think it was a lot of luck.
I think I can do a better job.

(49:39):
So I'm not definitely nottrying to put a ray of sunshine
over myself because I can do abetter job, but to see the
impact that it could have byhaving that connection point of
really reaching out andconnecting with somebody.
And it's powerful stuff that wecan we can all do more of.

Dave Snell (49:55):
Yeah, I'm not trying to jab anybody and say you
screwed up or you should havecalled them if you, if you'd
lost somebody.
I think it's just a day to dayroutine change that we all need
to start thinking about.

Thad David (50:09):
Well, and I love that you did take a moment to
put some responsibility of whatwe can do now as reaching out to
people, but you also mentionedthat in that moment that they,
they it was the go, no go.
They're in go mode and there's.
You're not stopping it.
And while you're not saying,don't reach out to people, don't

(50:30):
reach out to your buddies,don't check in 100%, do that,
but also don't feel horribleabout it, because the ones that
get in that go mode and, if Imay correct me, if I'm, if I'm
off base here, because, as youwere walking us through that
moment in time, because you hadjust met that, that buddy, that
you had saw him, he'd said theroad soda, I believe, is what

(50:54):
you had referred to it as.
And then you, you had alreadystarted taking those pills.
I mean, you were, you were onthat journey to commit suicide,
and one thing that I didn't hearyou say, that was going through
your mind, was, if all of theseother people that aren't like
there wasn't a space of screweverybody else, that it was

(51:17):
really a dark internal space foryou, and to me that means that
that person, while, yes, shouldtake responsibility to reach out
, but it's almost feels selfishto take the blame for it because
it wasn't about them in thatmoment, it was about you in that
moment.

Dave Snell (51:35):
Yeah.

Thad David (51:36):
And then after the fact to say, well, it was
definitely on Instagram.
It's like no, yes, there isstuff you could do, but also
realize that they had a lot ofstuff going on that we didn't
know about and for us to thinkwe could have done something is
almost it's.
It's not a great space.

Dave Snell (51:51):
It's a hubris that we think we can solve it all.
I'm not going to solveeverybody's problem.
I'm going to find a way, thebest I can, to do so.
And if I've done everything Ican and something still happens,
I've I don't want to say I'vedone to myself, to it, but I've
and at the same time I've had tosay, look, I cannot do it.

(52:11):
I'll give you a good case inpoint.
I had a lieutenant who workedfor me in my last command, just
before I retired.
He was in for another four orfive months and we kept in touch
and he had some issues.
And he started texting me abouta year after he retired or
after he left the Navy, and hewas telling me how everything

(52:34):
I'd done in Afghanistan waskilling babies, the government
was corrupt and we never shouldhave been there and I was a
murderer.
I, dave Snell, was a murdererbecause I killed babies and I
said I said, bro, I didn't killa single baby and anything I did
there was never an intent tokill anybody other than someone

(52:54):
who wanted to kill us.
You know, I did my job and hestarted talking about suicide.
He was drinking a lot.
I don't know that he ever gotinto drugs.
But he definitely was right onthe precipice and he called me.
I was in Chicago working for acompany I was doing the Monday

(53:18):
fly up to Chicago, worked tillThursday night, fly home and
work from home on Friday as aconsultant and I had a meeting I
had to go to and I said look,oh, let's talk.
And I got people coming to mein the rotunda of this big you
know office building in Chicago.
Hey, dave, we got, we got ameeting.
Come on.
I said you know, piss off.
I've got a guy on the phone andI got him to finally get online

(53:43):
and set up a VA thing wherethey called him back.
So there was kind of I didn'twant to leave him off the phone
and then go.
Oh well, there's a gap in time,something could happen before
the VA came in.
So thankfully we're talking in.
The VA called and we droppedoff and he talked to the VA and
he got the help and I this isnot a pat on the back I'm pretty

(54:08):
sure he was ready to.
He was beyond the go, no go,and there are times again,
there's different circumstances.
There's not a finality.
I think he was ready to do itWhether he'd made the go no go,
I can't say, but I think I thinkhe was right there if he hadn't
already decided.
So we got him back.

(54:32):
It's a tough situation to be inand I did everything I could and
yet when I got in touch withhim later, he just railed right
back at me Dave, you're a killer, you did this, you did that,
the country sucks this, that andthe other.
And I was like I finally had tolook at him and say, paul, I
can't do this anymore.
I've done what I can.

(54:53):
We're done.
You need to get the help youneed, and I've put you on that
path.
I will say I hadn't talked toPaul for I was 2017.
I hadn't talked to him foralmost six years and he texted
me out of the blue just twomonths ago, said, hey, I'm

(55:14):
finally getting the help I need.
I'm an alcoholic, I'm depressed.
He's finally on the right track.
At some point I just could notdo anything more for him.
He did not want to hear what Ihad to offer.
Whether he had a prejudiceagainst the government and I was
his conduit to say I was theepitome of the ills of our

(55:37):
nation, I don't know.
And at the same time Iresponded to him as in Paul, I'm
more than willing to talk toyou.
We just need to have someground rules that we're here to
get you better not to insult orassault me through words.
It's there, I mean, there'salways enough.

(55:57):
I lost a chief to suicide, notbecause of depression.
It was one of those spur of themoment.
I can't lose my wife.
I'm lost without her.
I'm going to put a gun to mychest, and that's what he did.
And at the same time, we can,through compassion, talking,
expression, expressiveness, wecan connect with people and

(56:23):
bring them back from the idea ofsuicide.

Thad David (56:31):
Really respect your ability because I think we as
humans can struggle with this attimes is setting our boundaries
with other people.

Dave Snell (56:40):
Well it might be one of the only times I've done so
effectively, though.

Thad David (56:44):
Well, it's not an easy thing to do and I think
that more of us could take noteof that as well, of just being
able to stand firm that I alsohave thoughts and feelings as
well, and I'm willing to helpyou, however not at the expense
of me, and your ability to setthat boundary is massive.
And I have another question foryou about this, and I really

(57:10):
appreciate you sharing, becauseyou walked through the attempted
suicide and then earlier on yousaid there was a moment and
time where you had kind of Ibelieve the word was the
ideation of it or just thethinking of it and what were the
?
Just curious to know thedifferences there, you know,
because I wonder what's there tounpack that one of them?

(57:32):
You attempted one of them.
It was just the thinking of itand it didn't manifest.

Dave Snell (57:37):
Yeah, ideations are geez.
Wouldn't it be nice if I wasn'there anymore.
Ideations are what if I were todrive my car off this bridge?
What would happen if I took toomany pills?
You know, just the thought.
There's no intent behind it, asopposed to an attempt, where

(58:00):
you are setting in motion a planI'm going to go buy the gun,
I'm going to go buy the pills,I'm going to isolate myself in a
room and make sure nobody elsecan get hurt, and I'm going to
do it.
The ideations are if I were todo this, what would happen?
You know, there's no intent ofturning the wheel and driving

(58:22):
off the bridge.
And I bring that one up inparticular, because I had that
one many times going to NorfolkNaval Base and they say, if I
drove off this bridge, I wouldfall and I'd die.
Is that really what I want?
No, absolutely not.
You go through that process.
I don't really want it, butthat would be a way I could if I

(58:45):
did.
I have no intent.
Like I said, I have a wonderfuldaughter, my wife and son as
well.
It's another story, but I'm notdoing it.

Thad David (59:00):
Well, I'm so, so happy to get to know you and I
really appreciate you sharing.
I know that there's a lotinside of that and a lot that I
can't even begin to understand.
So thank you for diving deepinto it.
And I would love to circle backinto where your passions lie
now, because you had mentionedthe step one of diet and

(59:24):
exercise that you had jumpedinto, and I believe is that
lining up with the 4M's that youhave, Because I know we had
talked about them, that step one.

Dave Snell (59:35):
Is that something you'd?

Thad David (59:36):
be willing to share.

Dave Snell (59:37):
Oh, absolutely.
This is the basis of how Iinteract with folks on the idea
of getting beyond trauma,getting beyond depression or
anxiety and living a morefulfilled life, if you will.
So, like I said, in December of19, I was heavier than I ever
wanted to be and at the sametime, lindsay, my therapist, and

(59:59):
I were working on a plan.
For the mental side, there isno doubt and there's no argument
that there's not a gut-brainconnection what we eat, how much
of it we eat, when we have aneffect on our brain, our mood,
our mental state.

(01:00:21):
So changing my diet, losing theweight, gaining the energy,
really had a positive mentaleffect on me and as I lost the
weight and gained that energy, Ihad a more positive perspective

(01:00:41):
on how I felt and looked andit's very shallow okay, I look
better in the mirror.
So I'm going to feel moreconfident.
I want to do those things thatI normally wouldn't have, or I'm
going to go talk to somebodywhen I wouldn't have.
I'm just going to feel betterabout myself.
There's an aura lifted, youknow, you kind of feel better.

Thad David (01:01:02):
Why do you think that is that Just hit me.
Why do you think we call that?
Because, to think about howhealthy it is, we assign a
negative connotation to it, tocall it shallow, and I know that
that's what we talk aboutsociety-wise.

Dave Snell (01:01:20):
I'm sorry, no, I was going to say.

I wonder how much that negative connotation that
we have towards it, Because itliterally like step one of
feeling better about yourself isto feel better about yourself,
and yet we call it To self, asyou are.
And to feel confident, yet weassign that negative, shallow
connotation to it.
And that it just hit me struckme just the irony of that.

That's the healthy path, I think I said shallow
because I think as we look atsociety, we always think oh well
, she's hot, she's pretty, she'sgorgeous.
We don't think about well, isshe needy, not mean happy?
Is she even happy in life?
You know she's just.
That's a beautiful woman.
I go with women because we'reguys, but it goes the same way

(01:02:02):
Are you a good-looking guy?
Is he a good-looking guy?
I don't know.
I mean, we look at the exteriorfirst.
That's why I say shallow,because we're not thinking of a
deeper I definitely understoodexactly what you were saying.

I wasn't talking about that scenario, I know, but
just to me it just struck me asjust interesting that we assign
this negative connotation,which is step one, to the.
Being healthy is just feelinggood about yourself, and so it
just, I just wanted to make thespace that it is definitely okay
and step one of feeling healthyis to start feeling that.

So sorry to cut you off in the middle of that?
No, absolutely.
I think it's a very importantpoint.
My confidence is really it's apersonal, internal thing and
we've got to feel good aboutwhat we're doing and how we're
doing about things.
So I started running again.
I had this idea.
I've been a runner and I playedsoccer up through high school,

(01:02:58):
a little bit in college on theintramural teams for soccer, but
I was never really a big runneranymore after high school.
Yeah, we do our Navy twice ayear a mile and a half, the
three mile club.
I really wasn't that fit whileI was in the Navy, to be quite
honest.
But as I started going throughthe pandemic and I'll go through

(01:03:21):
each one individually and how Icame about it as I lost the
weight, the energy came.
I started running again.
I had had in my mind that Iwould never run again.
My personal trainer insists sheloves the fact that I kept
telling her in 2018, I'm neverrunning again.

(01:03:41):
I just physically can't do it.
My back hurts, my knees hurt,my arms hurt, even because I've
got some neck surgeries thatI've had.
Okay, well, movement.
Movement has an effect on thebrain, the mood, our
personalities, our ability to dowork, focus on work.
I notice, on days where I don'tgo out for a run or go to the

(01:04:04):
gym, my mood is down, my focusis down, so I go for a run.
The next step you mentioned thefour M's.
Let me back.
It's movement, mind, meditationand meaning.
And the next one is mind.
And when you're dealing withtraumas, trying to solve these

(01:04:26):
by yourself is ridiculous in mymind.
We need to get help and wetalked about how I did that
through my therapist, lindsay,who got me to the talk.
Therapy, emdr, neurostimulation, vagus, nerve reset,
and that is good for a periodof time, but I don't want to see

(01:04:50):
Lindsay for the rest of my life.
I don't want to see anytherapist.
I don't want to keep seeingtherapists for the rest of my
life, whether it's one or anyothers.
I want to get to a point whereI can live without needing to
see them.
And I don't remember exactlyhow the next step came about.

(01:05:11):
I've always been fascinated withmeditation and I've always been
told hey, you just got to blankthe mind.
Well, the mind can't do that,the mind has to.
If I were to tell you, don'tthink of an elephant, you're
going to start thinking of anelephant, a pink elephant, a
floating elephant and different.

(01:05:32):
The first thing that went in mymind sorry, I'm a Winnie the
Pooh fan is the Heffa, lumps andMoosles scene in that movie.
You're just going to have allkinds of images of elephants.
And I learned and it was verythankful for the pandemic
because it gave me a lot of timeto read, to watch videos, to

(01:05:52):
listen to people going throughguided meditations.
And it's not about blanking themind, it's about focusing the
mind and, in particular, theeasiest one is breathing
meditation, focusing on yourbreath, inhale and exhale
through the nose preferably, ifyou can, and it has a relaxing

(01:06:17):
effect on your muscles, yourbrain, just the entire body if
you really focus on it.
And when I say focus on it, soin what way I think about it, is
as a surface warfare officerwe're taught to think.
You know, gas turbine engine,like molecule of air, enters the
intake, goes to the first blade, second blade, gets compressed,

(01:06:40):
gets burned and expands and nowit's an exhaust.
Okay, that molecule of air.
Well, think about it as amolecule of air going through
your nose, down your trachea,into your lung.
Okay, it's in your lung, goesout the ally, after the bronchus
and all that Goes through theblood comes back out, and then

(01:07:00):
think about the reverse.
Well, that's how I, when Imeditate, I'm thinking about
that molecule of air going inand out.
Okay, so when I can't see atherapist, or I'm not seeing a
therapist, or those times whereI'm just stressed or I'm penned
in, I just had this happen lastweek.

(01:07:21):
I was in the in theSuperMiranda commissary, and the
lady in front of me wasn'tmoving.
I was in the aisle you know inthe cashier aisle already, you
know the candy bars on bothsides and this guy came in
behind me and penned me in,because my cart was behind me as
well, and I was just like Ican't, you know.
It reminded me of someinstances in the desert and I

(01:07:44):
just I started to panic subtly.
It wasn't a panic attack, don'tget me wrong and I just said,
okay, oh, hey, look that justthat helps.
And I did three or four of thosebreaths.
Okay, I'm in a situation, it'snot dangerous, I can move on.
I don't need to panic, I cansit calmly and wait till she

(01:08:10):
moves on and I'll get out Easyday, right.
So meditation gives us thatopportunity to move through the
day.
You can meditate anywhere.
I just did that.
One breath is a meditation.
We think of meditation as thisblanking the mind and you know

(01:08:30):
nothing can disturb you overtime.
With that, you're doing it.
But even that one breath, I wasin the now.
I was in that moment notthinking about anything else but
my breath, so nothing elsemattered, right?
So there's the first threemovement, mind, meditation.

And with that too, I love that you mentioned that
the I've heard of it referencedlike micro meditation, yeah, but
you just reminded me of a pastinterview that I have with Steve
Haman, and as he runs Hives forHeroes and he's very big into
beekeeping and the bees savedhis life and he shares an
example of when he's collectinghoney, of if bees actually make

(01:09:12):
it into your suit, it just mademe think of what you were
talking about in that micromoment of, because I think a lot
of people are faced thosesituations where they might feel
trapped and then there's startsto ruffle up some stuff, and he
actually shared that the worstthing you can do in that moment
is panic, because the bees aregoing to stay in you as long as
you remain calm, and it's apractice of that breathing that

(01:09:33):
sets you free, and so I lovethat you shared that.
And so step four yeah, ismeaning.

So part of the weight loss program I went
through they had to.
You know what's our why.
Why am I doing this?
Why am I alive?
Why?
What is it that makes me dowhat I do?
What's my purpose for losingthe weight and living life with
health?
Kind of, you know, kind ofcheesy.

(01:10:02):
But so I said OK and I wroteout my why and I have it right
here.
It's on my desk every day on athree by five card and I see it.
But OK, three m's and a W didn'treally kind of make sense.
So what's another word formeaning or purpose?
Why our purpose?

(01:10:23):
It was a meaning.
It just kind of lent itself tothe four m's.
And the way I think of this isthis I can have movement, I can
have meditation and I can havemy mind all balanced, but they
don't mean a thing if I don'thave a meaning.
And I think of it as kind of athree leaf clover, if you will.

(01:10:44):
The stem is the meaning andthose other three kind of
balance on the stem, because ifthe meaning isn't there it all
crumbles down.
You can lose one of the.
You know I could not move for alittle while but I still have
my meditation in my mind to kindof balance me out and stay on
that at stem, ok, and I get themovement back and I'm balanced

(01:11:07):
again and I can lose themeditation or the mind and
movement will keep me balanced.
That meaning, that reason forwhy I do what I do, keeps me
going and remembering why I needto go for a run, why I need to
think about meditating, becauseI'm panicked, because I want to

(01:11:27):
stay on my case.
I want to set a good example ofphysical and mental well-being
for my family, my friends andanybody else who needs help.
That's really what it comesdown to.
So this really all came to ahead.
I put them all together the lasttwo years where 1993.

(01:11:52):
I was a junior in college and Ithink the Marine Corps Marathon
was still in May at the timeand I said I'm going to run the
Marine Corps Marathon, I'm goingto do this great big thing.
And I never did and I came upwith every excuse I'm not good
enough, I'm not physically fitenough, I've got schoolwork,

(01:12:15):
I've got drinking to do, I'vegot whatever you know.
And then I joined the Navy andwe deployed and we're on ships
and doing all these things 2003,.
I tried again and in this caseI thought I had a good purpose.
I thought I had a good meaningand it was so two days after my
attempt this is kind of a sicktwist of irony, I don't know

(01:12:39):
what the right word is.
I still feel some guilt overthis.
But April 20th of 2002, I lostone of my best childhood friends
it was a Marine in an air showaccident, andy Muse, called
Simon Mutt.
I've known Mutt since I wasfive years old and now we're

(01:13:00):
talking 25 years later.
He was killed in an air showaccident.
So I said, okay, I'm going torun this Marine Corps marathon
in Andy's honor and I injured myknee, I think, during training
and then kind of fell off in2003.
And then I started deploying tothe desert.

(01:13:21):
Another excuse came up, otherreasons why I couldn't do it and
then in 2013, I told an AirForce friend of mine who I'd
worked with in Honolulu actuallyPearl Harbor said, hey, I'm
going to run this thing before Iturn 50.
So well, dave, you got nineyears.
I said, yeah, I do.
I said okay, and I kind of felloff again until the pandemic

(01:13:44):
and I started getting my energyback and my physical fitness
back and my purpose back, mymeaning, and they all came
together last year, really, whenI did my first Marine Corps
marathon.
I had the diet right, I had mymovement right, my mind was

(01:14:06):
right.
I was still seeing my therapistat the time.
I meditated throughout the race.
Every 20 minutes or so I wouldtake three deep, intentional
breaths into the nose, nowthrough the mouth, to kind of
calm my mind.
And I would always go back tomy purpose and, honestly, the

(01:14:29):
marathon last year.
I didn't train for it properly.
Ten days before the race lastyear, my running partner who I
think Joe, at the time of 61 or62, calls me up right out here
in my court.
I just finished running twomiles, struggling through two

(01:14:49):
miles.
Now we're 10 days out from amarathon and he calls me up.
I'm all my earbuds because Iwas listening to music, whatever
.
He says hey, you ready for thisthing?
I said nope, I'm deferring to2023.
He goes the heck you are.
I said what are you talkingabout?
I could barely do two miles.
Joe, I'm not ready.
He goes I'm about to go throughchemo and radiation diet 10

(01:15:12):
days after we run this thing.
You are going to do this raceand it was important to me
because the community, thefriendships, the connections go
back to that humanity, thepersonalization of pushing me
along.
I was ready to give up again,despite my meaning and my
purpose of why I wanted to dothese things, and he said no,

(01:15:35):
you're not.
You've talked about it for toolong.
I'm going to make sure you getthrough this race.
And I actually did it.
At the 20-mile mark, I rememberlooking at Joe and saying I feel
effing great.
And I did, but I had totallymentally, meditatively, whatever
I blocked out any pain.
I didn't even notice the crowds.

(01:15:56):
I was in the moment, I was inthe now and I think that's very
important.
I can talk about more than now.
We're going to live, we're here, we're right now.
I can't worry about the nextmeeting, I can't worry about the
last meeting or whatever's notright here.
And that was really importantduring that race.
And I say that because half amile later, joe looked at me and

(01:16:19):
he said I can't go, I want youto finish before five hours.
You're going to leave me and wewent through the whole.
I'm not leaving you, we'regoing to finish this together,
back and forth, not leaving aman behind.
Ok, rah, rah, and I finally did.
And a half mile later I see twoEMTs giving CPR to a guy and
I'm like, oh shit, what did Ijust do?

(01:16:41):
I left a guy with cancer throatcancer a half a mile back and I
said, ok, wait a minute.
I calmed myself and I wentthrough the breathing again.
Ok, wait a minute, I'm going tosee him because we're going to
do this through Crystal City.
You counter flow against eachother.
I was like, ok, I can do this,I start running again.

(01:17:02):
I didn't see Joe in CrystalCity so I deflated.
But I finished and that was thekey and I did it under five
hours.
This year was a struggle.
I went into it feelingconfident I've done one before,
I better train for this one.
But then I didn't realize itwas 20 degrees hotter than it

(01:17:26):
was last year.
This year it was 65 degrees atstart.
This year, when it ended at 65last year and this year ended at
85 degrees.
It was a brutal run and it wasyet, at the same time, a great
testament, I think, to myabilities through those four m's

(01:17:47):
, because I had to consistentlyand constantly remind myself of
each of them.
So this year, instead of runningwith Joe till 20 miles.
I let Joe go ahead of me.
I stopped telling him I need tostop running, just go without
me, and it allowed me tointernalize, without somebody
else pushing me to really digdeep and go.

(01:18:09):
Ok, I trained, my body can dothis.
Mind, you're in a good place,you're worthy, you're well
qualified, you are good enoughand that's an important one.
I've said a couple of timesthrough the time here, because a
lot of people who attemptsuicide don't think they're good
enough.
But I was able to.
Just OK, I'm good enough, I'mgoing to breathe, I'm going to

(01:18:33):
calm myself down, I'm not goingto panic and then I'm going to
remember.
I said it.
I could quit right now.
I could walk off this courseand just find my way back to my
hotel, and yet I can't, becauseI know that I'm trying to set
the right example for others.
That it can be.
You can get through any trouble.
That's ahead of you.
I have 16 more miles to go, butI'm going to do it.

(01:18:57):
I have 10 miles to go.
I'm going to do it.
The hardest mile was the lasthalf mile, because you have a
uphill right at the end of theMarine Corps marathon.
Ok, I'm going to do it.
So I was able to take, because Iwas by myself, I think more
importantly show that I couldstep through movement, mind,

(01:19:18):
meditation and meaning to finishthat race on my own.
And I did it worse than lastyear and that hurt, I mean it
killed me.
I was just beside myself likedang, dang.
What did I do?
I failed.
No, you finished the race.
You weren't trying to do it forthe podium, you weren't trying

(01:19:38):
to get an age group win, youjust wanted to show you could do
it.
I did it.
Nothing I could have changed inmy training would have changed
the outcome.
Potentially because the out ofyour control elements, the
weather, are beyond your control.
You just have to deal with them.

Yeah, it's such a beautiful example of it, and I'm
curious to ask you because onething that we talk about often,
especially on this show, is justtaking action and getting
started, and you had mentionedhow many times you'd said that
you were going to do thismarathon, and then you even said

(01:20:19):
, like nine years before you hadsaid, all right, I'm going to
do it before I'm 50.
I was like, oh, you got nineyears, and then what was the
initial spark that actuallyforced you or, and I would say,
forced you, but created thaturgency for you to go do it?

It was the pandemic.

Okay.

It was the.
Again, I'll go back to the diet, the change of intake, the loss
of weight, the energy that Iregained.
And then I've known Joe for awhile.
I didn't know how much of arunner he was, let me caveat
this.
So he comes up to me.
He's like, hey, I hear you'regetting back into running.

(01:20:56):
Like, yeah, I want to do thisMarine Corps marathon finally
before I turn 50 in a couple ofyears.
And he said, okay, let's go fora run sometime.
And so, okay, next week, we'llgo for a run next Saturday.
And this was like on Sunday orMonday.
And I met up with some other oldshipmates for a work or

(01:21:16):
something.
They're like, oh, you're goingto go run with Joe.
You do know that guy runs 100milers for fun, like just on a
weekend.
And I'm like, oh no, I had noidea.
And okay, well, I guess I'lltry this.
And he was.
He understood, I'm a new runneragain, let's work through
getting you built up.
And I said, okay, joe, I don'twant to go right into a marathon

(01:21:40):
, I want to build up to amarathon.
And I mean that not just in thetraining plan, I mean I want to
do some other races in between.
I want to get used to runningin crowds.
I want to.
You know, I think that's reallythe biggest one.
I want to be able to run otherthings and say I can build up

(01:22:02):
mentally, I can do a five kagand do a 10 kag and do a half,
show that my body isincrementally getting better.
So he ran.
So the pandemic canceled thelocal half marathon marathon
here, but they did a rollingstart.
It was not a okay big group ofpeople and then you have a
finish line.

(01:22:22):
At a certain time you got to bedone.
They started like between sevenand 10.
You could just choose your timeto cross the marker, your bib
would set off the clock andyou'd run the race.
Okay.
So he met me at mile five and heran me for the next.
He ran me to 12 and a half yeah, about 12 and a half miles.

(01:22:43):
We're on the final stretch, onthe waterfront of the beach, the
boardwalk here in VirginiaBeach, and he said, okay, last,
last half mile is yours, you'reon your own, and I just, you
know, spread it down theboardwalk and finished, and just
under two hours, I think.
But it was again the community,somebody helping me, pushing me
a little bit.

(01:23:04):
And again, we can't solve ourproblems all by ourselves.
We need other people to help us.
And he got me through thatfirst half marathon.
I said, okay, half marathonwith help I can do.
And I did.
I think it was, you know, 21.
And then, august of 21, I didthe rock and roll half marathon

(01:23:25):
here in Virginia Beach.
It was the last one they didand I tell you what it was a
struggle, you know.
I got in my mind again I had tostart.
Okay, I don't need someone topush me, I need to dig deep to
get through this.
So I did the half marathon andthis year, you know, I did the
full marathon last year.
This year I did the MarineCorps 17.75 kilometer, which is

(01:23:50):
about 11.06 miles, and that wasa tough one because I hadn't
trained for hills this one's ina state or national park up near
Quantico.
Hadn't trained for hills Uh-oh,that's a trouble.
And it was cold and wet inMarch northern Virginia's Many
know it's not a pretty place Didthe Marine Corps half marathon

(01:24:14):
respectable time.
But again, it was by myself.
So I'm starting to build upthese again, just like the
traumas you know they compoundon your experiences.
Then I did the 10-miler here.
I did the Army 10-miler threeweeks before the marathon, which
I went out to do as a trainingrun and I ended up PRing it from

(01:24:38):
the race I had done three weeksprior.
And what I've done now is I'vedecided I've got new goals.
You know we shouldn't rest onour laurels.
We need to have to continue thehealing and the recovery.
If you will, I'm going to dothe same races I did this year.
I've added on another halfmarathon.
I'm going to add in crosstraining with bike and swim so

(01:25:04):
that in 2025 I can do two thingsJanuary of 2025, I want to do
the dopey challenge at DisneyWorld.

Yes, that's what I want to do.
I love that you're 10K, halfand full.

So I'm going to do those, hopefully January 2025.

That's my goal.

And then I bring up swimming and biking, because the
gauntlet has been thrown, thechallenge has been accepted and
I'll do a triathlon in 2025.
So I've really gotten into thisidea of endurance sports.
I don't consider myself anendurance athlete.

(01:25:44):
I've done two marathons.
Okay, they're guys.
The Moab out in Utah is 238miles.
Those are endurance runners inmy mind.
I'm just a guy who's trying tostay healthy through long
distance running, and that'swhere I'd rather be focused on
is the mental state that goesinto it and helping others get

(01:26:05):
there as well.

I don't know how much you've looked into it, but
this has been a recent passionof mine through some other
things, and I discovered zonetwo heart rate training.
I don't know if you've Okay.

I've failed that many, many times, but I want to
keep pushing.

I was able to push through and get into a good spot
with it and it's pretty amazing.
It's pretty.

It's been tough for me to get to that.
So I'm not a fast runner, I'm a930 pace roughly guy.
Now generally maybe 10 minutes.
But to get to a zone two for merequired me to get to like a 12
minute mile.
Going that slow is like walkingfast and I just I haven't
mentally been able to make thatshift to slow down to go faster.

(01:26:52):
Yep, and I say that halfjokingly, because my training
runs are often at the 10 to 11minute pace, knowing that it'll
build up for the longer, fasterraces but the the the 12 minute
pace.
I just cannot slow down enoughto go faster on that one.

It's definitely.
It's a mental challenge and Ihave to I've always had to prep
myself for it, but it's in mylimited experience with it over
the last six months it's beenit's been pretty fruitful.

Well, I'm.
I'm thankful that, for I wantedto do the dopey challenge this
January and I'm thankful Ididn't get in, because I don't
think I'd be ready at the ratethat I've been going lately and
I just missed it.
It was, it was really, it wasan irony.
I thought the registration forthe dopey challenge started at

(01:27:46):
noon on a day in April.
It started at 10.
And had I known that orremembered that, I would have
been in and maybe that wouldhave changed my training Cycle
and plan.
Yes, but I actually had to goto my uncle's funeral up in DC,
up in Maryland, and I, just asthe, just as the priest was

(01:28:06):
coming out, I'm like on my phoneDisney run Disney.
I missed it.
Dang it, okay back.
I'm focused on my uncle and Isay that jokingly my uncle would
have more than understood hewas.
He was a prankster he was.
He was a retired cryptologistas well.
His, his, his card that he gaveout was I hope you laugh at my

(01:28:28):
funeral because it means thatyou were there.
You know the true story.
The guy was he was a greatclass act.
Well, some would say he was acrass act, but he was a class
act.
He was actually in Beirut whenthe bombing happened in 83.
So very he was a warrior.

(01:28:49):
Just quick note on a warriorgentleman, best cryptologist
ever that I've worked with andI'm missing.

But well, I Appreciate you sharing that and
also these goals that you havewithin it, because you mentioned
the meaning and I know itstarted from the why, and I'm
deviating even further from itpotentially, but with a goal,
because I read this gentleman'sbook.
He was a gold medalist in theOlympics and he had spent 25

(01:29:22):
years chasing this gold medaldream that he had and the most
depressing time of his life wasthat one week period After he
won his gold medal and his wife,he was like just so depressed.
And his wife grabbed him andwas like you realize why you're
depressed, right?
And he's like I have no idea.
And she's like well, you've hada goal for the last 25 years

(01:29:44):
and you just hit it.
Yeah and now he's a bigproponent of always having your
next goal ready to line up,because and I know that's goals
Different than meaning,different than why.

However, there is a parallel there that you don't
have it, you you may feel lostand, most likely, you will but I
think that that also gets tothe, the greater human Nature of
I Got what I was grasping for,the old Greek mythology, or
reaching for the stars, reachingfor what you want, but then

(01:30:14):
what?
What does it mean?
You know, back in 2018, I wentto a therapist before I went to
see Lindsay and he asked me.
He said hey, you know what'llmake you happy?
I said, well, if I moved toFlorida, that'll make me happy,
because no, they'll just changeyour circumstance.
Your happiness is what you makeof it.
Again now here, what's gonnamake you happy right now in your

(01:30:38):
day-to-day routine in life?
What meaning or what purposegets you to the point where you
can just you can be happy, andhow you define that is.
You're relevant.
It's really what makes yousatisfied with what you have
done.
At that moment, you grasp thatgold medal, but you're happy.

(01:31:00):
Then what's gonna happen thenext day?
You have to have the next goal,the next attainment, that the
happiness is not gonna come fromthat gold medal.
Happiness is gonna come fromyour family and support system,
your day-to-day routine thatmade you able to earn that gold
medal, mm-hmm.
And we forget that.
We think that happiness comesfrom things when it's it's

(01:31:25):
internal, from from a few smallexternal, you know impacts on us
.

Beautifully said.

I occasionally have a, have a fruitful fruit, fruit
of wisdom.
Word or two.

You've got that's been plentiful.
This this entire, this entireTime we've been able to spend
together.
Man, I do have one, one finalquestion, that that I thought of
earlier, that I want to closeout with and I'd love to ask
Really quick, I know so you saidpeople can reach out to you
what are the best ways forpeople to reach out and get in
touch with you?

(01:32:00):
Before I ask you this finalquestion I'd love to to get that
out there what are the ways forpeople to get in touch with you
?

The best way honestly is through LinkedIn.

Okay.

I'm always on LinkedIn.
I actually get a lot of, soLinkedIn is the best way to get
old of me.
I'm so in my day-to-day routineI'm a cybersecurity consultant.
I have my own company, snowadvisory group, and At snow
advisory comm you can find methere, so you'll see my

(01:32:30):
day-to-day work in there for thecyber security.
I'm also a private investigator, which ties into protecting
information and people, but inthere is my public speaking page
.
Where they can, you can reachout to me through there.
There is a contact page inthere and, again, I'm happy to

(01:32:51):
talk to anybody anytime, whetherit's, you know, in an
environment like this wherewe're talking about mental
health mental fitness is a termI prefer or if it's you're
struggling and you want someoneto lend a near, I'm happy to do
so.

Oh, I'm gonna definitely post it up.
When we do this, when I postthis up underneath the bio, I'll
share your website, I'll tagyour link, your LinkedIn, and my
final question for you isReally back to what we were
talking about with suicide andand people heading down that

(01:33:30):
road, because I know right now Iactually have a few buddies
that are, that are on that path,and you know you're always
seeking out what to do, what todo.
However, knowing that you'vebeen in that position, what
advice would you give tosomebody right now if they were
listening to this, consideringsuicide, and what advice would

(01:33:51):
you give to him?
What would you tell him?

First and foremost is, like I've said before, there
is, there are other paths thatare more fruitful than suicide.
Life goes on.
Beyond whatever you're goingthrough right now, please reach
out to somebody, whether it's988, a Professional, a family

(01:34:20):
member, a friend.
Recognize that life Is beyond.
There is life beyond whatyou're going through at this
moment.
It's temporary and remember whyyou're alive.
What do you bring to the table?
We all bring something tosomebody and without you here,

(01:34:45):
we lose that, they lose that,the world loses somebody.
It's tough and I understandit's tough.
I've been there and I don'twant to lose any more people.
I don't want to lose anybody Tosuch a, such a, such a, such a

(01:35:06):
case.
I don't know the right word,I'm fumbling here.
I Just don't want to lose anymore to suicide.
If we don't have to, it's, it'sunnecessary.

I I Completely agree , which is why I wanted to ask
and I'm so grateful for you toreach out and and share as much
as you have, and I think, about.

I think that we need to open up more about it.
I know there's a lot ofresources out there.
I'm just one who's telling hisstory.
Some people have told me it'stoo much, and I think that's the
problem.

Hmm and that gets back to the stigma of what we
place on it, back to the Just mymicro, small, a ha calling
shallow, where it's like, well,they actually need that right
now.
They need the confidence, andyou know the story is Is the
story for for that person.
And Well, thank you very much,dave.

(01:36:04):
I really appreciate everythingyou're doing, everything you
continue to do, and I'm reallylooking forward to just staying
in touch and and seeing all thegreat things, all the great
things you do, we finish withhappy birthday.
Thank you.

He's the Marines court Marine Corps birthday it
is our day this weekend.

Thank you very much and happy Veterans Day to you as
well.

Thank you.

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|int| From Attempted Suicide to Physically Fit and Mentally Sound w/ Lieutenant Commander Dave Snell | Ep 91

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}|int| From Attempted Suicide to Physically Fit and Mentally Sound w/ Lieutenant Commander Dave Snell | Ep 91