What if the key to healing trauma lies in the unexpected fusion of military discipline and psychedelic therapy? This episode features an enlightening conversation with Army veteran Mark Cunningham, who reveals his journey from the battlefields of Afghanistan to the nuanced world of MDMA-assisted therapy. With a rich background in anthropology and marriage and family therapy, Mark shares how his experiences overseas not only reshaped his view of military service but also fueled his passion for addressing moral injury and PTSD among veterans. His story serves as a powerful testament to the transformative potential of sharing one's experiences in the quest for healing.
Together, we explore the profound impact of military service on personal identity and moral beliefs, diving deep into concepts like moral injury and its distinction from PTSD. Mark introduces wisdom from figures like Claude Anshin Thomas and Thich Nhat Hanh, highlighting the role of mindfulness and Zen Buddhism in addressing these complex issues. We also venture into the evolutionary lessons from our primate relatives, bonobos and chimpanzees, examining what their cultural adaptations can teach us about human evolution and the modern challenges young men face in defining masculinity.
The episode wraps up with a look at the transformative power of MDMA-assisted therapy and the broader societal implications of psychedelic use. Mark shares insights from his therapeutic practice, discussing how MDMA therapy can calm the fear response and foster trust, offering veterans a path to profound healing. We also touch on cultural perspectives around psychedelics, considering decriminalization efforts in Portugal and cannabis legalization in Colorado. As Mark and I reflect on our own journeys, we emphasize the importance of community and shared experiences, underscoring the healing power of connection for veterans transitioning to civilian life.
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I didn't know what to do with that experience.
I just thought I was someunique.
You know, I was an atheist atthe time and so I felt like
there was something about thatand my major and I didn't feel
like I could talk to anyoneabout it, so I just buried it
down.
But I just knew like I'm goingto write out my remaining years
and find another path is what Idecided from that experience.
And it took oh gosh, I don'tknow how I don't remember how it
was, but how I discovered theterm moral injury or soul wound,
(00:23):
but it was probably took sevenor eight years before I
discovered that term and when Idid I was like bingo, like yeah,
I definitely had, you know,some milder PTSD symptoms coming
home and there's a lot ofoverlap in how these show up.
But there's a really differentway of healing and working with
it.
That is really different whenwe know that it's moral injury,
more so than PTSD, of what we'reworking with.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
My name is Thad David .
I'm a former Marine recon scoutsniper with two deployments to
Iraq.
As a civilian, I've nowfacilitated hundreds of personal
and professional developmenttrainings across the country,
and it struck me recently thatthe same things that help
civilians will also helpveterans succeed in their new
roles as well.
Join me as we define civiliansuccess principles to inspire
veteran victories.
Welcome to another episode.
(01:07):
I'm here today with Armyveteran Mark Cunningham.
How are you doing, mark?
Awesome, thank you.
I know we met just recentlythrough another veteran at a get
together where we were justsupporting vets and really
supporting this project thatthey had going and sparked up a
really great conversation.
Actually, me and Mark havedoppelganger daughters.
(01:27):
That it shocked us.
I think that was one of thethings that drew us to have a
conversation.
But, mark, if you could telleverybody a little bit about
yourself, what are you currentlydoing right now?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, so after serving seven years in the Army
National Guard as a militarypolice in Afghanistan, I came
back and finished my bachelor'sdegree in anthropology.
So I always had a love forstudying evolution of human
behavior, and I got out of theArmy in 2014 and I finished my
(01:59):
bachelor's at that same time.
Afghanistan really changed mymind about my service and
because I was before going topursue becoming an officer, and
so I, yeah, went and traveled abunch through europe and
southeast asia and then cameback and started grad school
here in fort collins at coloradostate university.
For their, marriage and familytherapy is the focus within
(02:23):
human development, and familystudies is the Masters of
Science track, and now I am inprivate practice.
So I graduated in 2017 and did afew years working at the
Student Counseling Center andthen, when COVID hit, that kind
of motivated me to branch out onmy own, and so I have since
(02:47):
then, added specializations Ialways wanted to become.
I was always really focused onsexual behavior, even back in
anthropology days, and so I'mnow an ASEC certified sex
therapist and I am a MAPS MDMAtrained therapist.
They're the ones who have kindof done the research with MDMA
(03:07):
and developed a trainingcurriculum.
So yeah, I use the labelpsychedelic therapist and, yeah,
I serve half couples halfcouples and half individuals in
my practice.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
There's so many things inside of that sounds
like just a very, veryinteresting job.
You said something earlier thatI would actually be curious to
ask you about.
You said it being inafghanistan changed your mind
about service, and just curious,before we jump into what you're
currently doing what whatchanged your mind about it?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
yeah, so, um, yeah, so my mom was in the Air Force.
My grandfather was retired fromthe Air Force he died when I
was five, but he was in Vietnamand there was definitely some
abuse in the family from himthat I didn't really learn about
until later on.
And my aunt retired from theAir Force, so I definitely had.
(04:01):
Yeah, I was the one went toArmy and wanted to be different.
My father was a Marine.
Although he was never in mylife, I definitely had that
military culture on top ofwanting to go to school and
whatnot.
I volunteered to deploy toAfghanistan.
(04:23):
I even switched units to do itand, as I said, I was doing my
anthropology degree while I wasin the army.
Right, I paused for threesemesters to go deploy.
And there's not a lot ofanthropology people in the
military about other, at leastin the army.
(04:46):
Um, so I was a bit of a uniqueguy that, you know, didn't feel
like I could really be myauthentic self very much, but,
um, I adapted and figured it out, as we all do.
Um, and I say all that priorcontext just to give you more
coloring around, maybe, how Iwas thinking differently about
(05:07):
my experience um, so I was, yeah, doing convoy security,
detaining operations, um,helping train and, in you know,
check the afghan national policeor afghan national Afghan
National Army would enroll themin a bat and hide system to make
sure they were clear, butmainly convoy security.
(05:31):
And fast forward to coming backfrom that.
And I was back in myanthropology class at 21 years
old and we're in our theorycourse and we're talking about
conflict theory and the ways inwhich you know, throughout
history, when, when war is beingbrought up, that you know one
(05:54):
culture will dehumanize andlabel another culture as savage
or subhuman in order to make iteasier to justify or motivate
people to want to kill our enemy.
And after, after having justbeen in Afghanistan for a year
and now sitting in this classnow with you know all these
getting all intellectual andnerdy, it was a really there was
(06:17):
something about that lecturethat really stirred a big shift.
It honestly felt like, um, thisoverwhelming kind of almost
like a frag grenade went offinside of me.
I was like I felt like my partsuh, just went in all different
directions and then I was justsitting there because there was
(06:38):
something about that discussionthat I think formerly was
compartmentalized in my mindaround and and I had kind of
realized how, like, yeah, I hadparticipated in some of that
culture of dehumanizing and howthat actually conflicts with
what feels like my moralfoundation and my values.
And that was that was kind ofthis moment of reckoning, and
(07:01):
and I was asking myself a lot ofstuff like what was me, what
was family, society, culturethat drove me to want to
participate in that?
It was just running through myhead.
Uh, I didn't know what to dowith that experience.
I just thought I was, um,unique.
Uh, you know, I was an atheistat the time and so I felt like
(07:22):
there was something about thatand my major and I didn't feel
like I could talk to anyoneabout it, so I just buried it
down.
But I just knew like I'm goingto write out my remaining years
and find another path is what Idecided from that experience.
(07:43):
And it took gosh, I don't knowhow I don't remember how it was,
but how I discovered the termmoral injury or soul wound, but
it was probably took uh, sevenor eight years before I
discovered that term.
And when I did, I was likebingo, like yeah, I definitely
had, you know, some milder ptsdsymptoms coming home, and
there's a lot of overlap in howthese show up, but there's a
(08:05):
really different way of healingand working with it.
That is really different whenwe know that it's moral injury,
more so than PTSD, of what we'reworking with.
So I'm gonna pause there andsee where you're at, because I
just you just struck something.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I just spoke with someone actually she's local as
well, but Mary Scott does thatring a bell.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, she actually introduced.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, she introduced me to the term.
So that was I don't know if yousaw my aha that I had.
I was like, oh, I literallyjust talked to her not long ago
and and she introduced, um, thattopic.
But that makes a lot of sense.
And you said you didn't talk toanybody, kind of bottled it in
for a little while for surewhich is an interesting because
(08:47):
I really enjoyed um, obviouslynot that you went through it,
but that that analogy used of afrag grenade going off on the
inside, where it was like got itbut then to hold it all in and
now, as a therapist, the goal Iwould imagine is to get people
to share.
Did you eventually startsharing your thoughts and what
(09:10):
was going on?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
yeah, what I don't again.
I don't remember exactly how Idiscovered the word, but you
know it led to finding umvietnam elders I don't know if
you've you've seen claude andshin thomas at hell's gate, but
(09:34):
he was a door gunner, uh, and he, at 18, was in vietnam and came
back and spiraled through, youknow, homelessness and various
addictions.
And then then do you know theVietnamese monk who passed a few
years ago, thich Nhat Hanh?
No, so he's pretty famous,written a lot of books and
really well-known in themindfulness community.
(09:56):
Anyhow, his social worker,claude, tells him about these
meditation retreats that ThichNhat Hanh is facilitating in
Europe at the time, and so hefinally ends up going out there
and he talks all about you know.
So Thich Nhat Hanh is aVietnamese monk, and so he's
(10:18):
triggering his old enemyresponse, right and same with
other staff are also Vietnamese,and so he's just constantly
getting triggered into his PTSDby these people, who are also
teaching him, though, how towork with that through Zen,
buddhism and how to de-enemifyhis former enemy.
(10:38):
And later on he goes through hisbeautiful childhood and being
raised by World War II vets andthe glorified hero narrative,
and then the difference of beinga Vietnam vet and and he talks
about, you know, reckoning withlike, am I a bad person because
of what I did?
Versus zooming out and viewingthe collective layers of like,
(11:01):
our conditioning and being bornat a certain time at a certain
place, in a certain family, in acertain culture, and just like
how that shapes our actions.
And, yeah, we're responsiblefor our actions, but that
doesn't make us a good or badperson.
That's, that's judgment.
So all that to say that likeyeah, looking to elders who have
written about these experiencesreally started to help me to
(11:23):
like resonate with theirexperience and find language and
find ways to start working with.
And then I yeah, I just nerdedout started doing research on
moral injury because yeah, goahead.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
No, I was gonna ask you what is your favorite book
on moral injury if somebodywanted to jump more into it or
favorite place for context um,you can go check out voaorg.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Um, they've got some videos and articles that are
easily accessible.
Um, and just voaorg slash moralinjury.
Um, I don't want to, yeah, gettoo into the like research
articles, but, um, no, that'sperfect.
Dr eduardo duran, he's also avietnam vet and he wrote healing
(12:09):
the soul wound and he comes,he's raised indigenous native
american and so he brings it andhe's a psychologist, so he
brings some really interestingperspectives on on working with
this spiritually.
Because that's the maindifference between PTSD and
moral injury is because they canlook a lot.
The symptoms can look a lot ofthe same stuff, but in the core
(12:32):
of it, moral injury is losingtrust in self and in other,
compared to losing a sense ofsafety With PTSD.
There can be overlap, for sure,but moral injury soul wound
requires a lot of spiritualhealing to address it.
That is a little bit moredifferent from PTSD tracks of
(12:54):
healing.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Got it.
Very interesting.
Thank you Thanks for sharingthat I was nice, unexpected aha,
and that I was not expecting tojump into.
But thank you thanks forsharing that I was nice,
unexpected aha, and that I wasnot expecting to to jump into.
But thank you for that.
And so here you are now, a sexand psychedelic therapist, which
is very intriguing.
(13:16):
What does a sex therapist do?
What do you do as a sextherapist?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
yeah, I um therapist.
Yeah, I um.
Sex therapy is a really broad,wide, open realm that you know.
We can talk about things likegender identity and exploration
to different ways of loving andrelationship orientations.
You know, non-monogamy kink,whatever it might be, and we can
(13:45):
help partners who maybe havedifferences in desire or and are
struggling to figure out how tohave sexual compatibility or
find compromise, or or they werejust raised with a lot of sex
negativity from really strongreligious conditioning and that
makes it really hard for them toknow how to talk about these
things.
To sexual health, there's a lotof.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Definitely you know it's a sexual trauma and so much
more um, okay, the deep, likeyou said, very broad and there's
, it's very like that's a.
There's a lot of things tounpack inside of that what I've
been loving recently.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
You know I definitely get a lot of male clients, you
know, coming in for likeperformance, anxiety, erectile
dysfunction.
How do I talk to my wife aboutmy porn?
I'd be like I have to hide itand lie about it.
So I finally created a men's.
I was sitting on it for alittle while but, uh, I'm in my
fourth week out of six weeks ofthem.
(14:43):
It's called evolving loversmen's sexuality group, so I have
six men who gather here and we,each friday and I will share
different readings or videos andthen we'll do a little
meditation and then we'll moveinto discussion.
And it has been so exciting andfun and beautiful and
vulnerable and real andsupportive and, uh, it's just
(15:08):
such an honor for me to likehold that space and be in it
with them and, uh, to feel the,the, the walls of loneliness and
isolation just unfold as peoplereally dive into authenticity
around these discussions ratherthan like locker room talk of
trying to, you know, seem coolor impress their friends right,
(15:30):
well, we never had any of thatin the military.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Uh, as you think about that loneliness, isolation
, what, what's, where does thatstem from?
Like what and again.
I don't want to get intoanybody's personal items, but
just out of curiosity, youmentioned to kind of lift the
wall, that loneliness andisolation.
Um, where does that come fromand what is that like?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
the first thing that popped into my head because
there's so many things that thatcan come from, you know, as I'm
sick, like with religious kindof or other societal or family
conditioning.
Um, you know, was your familysex positive?
Were they open to thosediscussions and having those
throughout your development and?
Um, were they accepting ofdifferent ways of talking about
(16:18):
sexuality and loving andrelationship styles?
Or were they sex negative?
Right, there's only one rightway to do sex.
Everything else is a sin and isbad.
And or were you more sex neutral, where they didn't really talk
about it ever?
If it was on the tv, if therewas something sexual content,
they'd kind of look away andpretend it doesn't exist.
These things, right, reallystart to shape what we think is
(16:39):
okay to talk about or not.
Um, that combined with um, yeah, perhaps rigid expectations of
what it means to be a man or notto be a man, um, classic
patriarchal societal impacts onon boys and men and how that
(17:00):
limits what we feel we canexpress or talk about are, yeah,
some things popping ininteresting.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
What are your thoughts on, because this is now
it's totally different pathway,but, um, there's a lot of stuff
, it seems like, coming outabout just raising a boy,
raising a man these days andjust kind of where everything is
seems to be going and,society-wise, like, what is your
thoughts on, just on that ingeneral, just raising a boy,
raising a man and just how it'scurrently done, thoughts just in
(17:32):
general.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Change is the only constant and we humans, just
like our environment, need toadapt to that change, and
culture is highly adaptable andis dependent on local
environment.
Um, I don't know if we'll havethe time, but I love nerding out
(18:00):
about the difference betweenchimpanzees and bonobos and how
that shapes their culture andhow that shapes their sexuality
and ways of relating to oneanother and also their
relationship with violence Ihave no idea and I really now
want to know about those twothings.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
So, if you don't mind , what is the, what is it, what
is the difference?
And, yeah, I would love, lovesecret about it.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Okay, and then maybe we'll go back to masculinity and
rites of passage and yeah.
Yeah, for sure, there's a bookcalled sex at dawn.
That's really a great overviewand deeper dive into this.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Have you heard of that, christopher?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
No.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Just like the way it sounds.
I have not.
No, I just like the way itsounds.
So bonobos and chimps are bothcurrent living modern day
ancestors right From about 6million years ago.
We diverged evolutionarily fromthem, but they're both our most
common recent living ancestors,so we can look to them for
clues to our evolution.
They live in the Congo andthey're separated by a mountain
(19:05):
range, and that separationcreates an environmental
difference, although it's a verysimilar environment.
Gorillas live on the same sideas chimps, and so gorillas are
another big ape, and so theyoccupy similar niche as the
chimpanzees.
So they're competing more forthe same access to local food
(19:27):
resources and shelter you knowhome environments and so there's
more struggle and competitionfor resources, right Whereas
bonobos are not competing withthose, and so in that
environment they have less of astruggle, and that brings about
a few things.
So for chimps they've developeda patriarchal culture where
(19:52):
males will use violence as a wayto ascend the social hierarchy
and to gain more access to morefood and more mates, whereas
bonobos are matriarchal.
So the females are checking ifthere is any male violence.
They're they're.
They're either going tosocially exile that male or
they're going to calm and soothehim in with some form of
(20:14):
physical pleasure, uh, sex, uh,and they also have within
bonobos.
They have a lot more variationof sex.
They help.
They'll have male, male, female, female genital rubbing.
They'll have oral sex.
They'll have what we call umventral, ventral or missionary
style sex, where they'veactually got eye gaze going on,
which brings about attachmentand oxytocin, like in humans,
(20:37):
whereas chimps only have umdorsal, dorsal or doggy style
sex.
Um, so it's really fascinatingwhat that all leads to, all
these different types of sex,but it also leads to a lot more
um, I'm gonna let that go.
I'm gonna let that go, um, okay, so what's what's really
(21:01):
interesting about this?
Right, is we can start tounpack and learn how environment
relates to culture and howthese ideas of what it means to
be masculine or feminine or areflexible and and ever evolving
and changing, and especiallywhen we think about humans
throughout the whole world andour access to resources and
competition shaped by our localresources and economies and
(21:23):
whatnot.
You know it?
That?
That's what that's a lens thatI think through um on this topic
.
Very interesting.
I also think through the lens ofhow most collectivistic
cultures will have rites ofpassage where you know there is
some type of ceremonial ritualfor male or females to gain
(21:48):
their manhood or their womanhood, and how you know, sometimes in
the West that might look likegetting your driver's license at
16 or drinking at 21, or andyou know not to say that people
don't create their own versions,but it's not standardized in
our culture.
Other cultures, like you know,go off and go, take a few days
(22:19):
and go and hunt some animal, orgo and survive on your own, or
take these psychedelics andreally shake up your sense of
what you think the world is andyourself is, and then come back
and integrate what you'velearned and show that you're,
you know, gaining maturity andunderstanding of yourself I'm
jotting this down.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I really it's intriguing to me.
What do you think about therites of passage?
Because I read a book recentlythat that was one of the things
that they had mentioned had leftand that it was difficult for
boys to grow into men and notinto the um, not to put any
terms around it, but toessentially depart the mother of
(22:55):
as the caring and like I'm ableto take care of myself and kind
of push away and it would.
The context of it was aroundhow many men these days, or boys
, seem to not really leave thehouse, not really leave home,
that far more boys are not goingto school, they're not going up
to college, they're not gettingjobs, they're not leaving the
house, and that was one of thereference points that he had
(23:18):
towards it.
Did you have anything, anythoughts on any of that?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
well, there's a um, yeah, I mean not having that,
those standardized rites ofpassage that other cultures
might have, definitely is ahandicap to human development.
Um, and so when you think aboutgenerations and generations of
that and those fathers andparents raising kids without
(23:46):
having had that themselves, youknow well that progresses, that
progresses, and it's beautifulthat we are not getting stuck
into these rigid boxes of whatit means to be a male and a
female, and there's a lot ofopening up there for people to
be able to express parts ofthemselves that they used to
have to feel like they had tohide from themselves or others.
(24:08):
But it also creates thisparadox of choice where you
define your own version of whatmasculinity is and like, wow,
how do I even begin to startfiguring out what that is?
It's a really wide open terrain.
Figuring out what that is likeit's a really wide open terrain,
so it can almost feeloverwhelming and challenging to
know where to begin.
(24:28):
Compared to just like, oh, aman is this?
You learn how to fix all thethings in the house and you wear
blue or you don't wear thiscolor.
You know you like whatever itmight be.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
for some people that's easier to have a box it's
interesting that you youmentioned that because we we
talk about it often with our kid.
We're pretty with our kids dowhatever they want, to do within
reason.
I mean, uh, as far as what theywant to play with or what toys
they want, what things they want.
Somebody said it wascommercials, but they've never
really seen a tv commercial.
(25:01):
They don't get a lot of tv.
Just the other day they got topick.
We bought a little donut makingkit and it was like pick
whatever color you want.
And my daughter was like I wantpink.
And my son was like I want blue, like why do you guys want
those colors?
And my son was like I love blue, I love sharks.
My daughter was like I loveunicorns and it was like, with
(25:24):
no priming, no reason, you know,it doesn't feel like we put
them in a box or the confinesthat they seem to be so
naturally gravitating towardsthat.
And it's always been intriguingto us because we're like look
at our basic, you know basickids just doing their thing and
we love them to death.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
But it was just, it's curious that you mentioned that
this is a blue and you're putin a box, but he seems to be
just naturally drawn to thatanyway, and the same with my
daughter.
Yeah, well, yeah, who knows?
I mean, we're never raised in avacuum.
There's always so muchinfluence coming at us from so
many different.
You know, even by age four,three or four yeah, there is.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
It was just a very interesting, very interesting
thing.
So, sex therapist we went waydown a different rabbit hole.
Uh, that I'm very happy that wetalked about.
So thank you for sharing all ofthat.
So sex therapist alsopsychedelics.
So what do you do as apsychedelic therapist?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
yeah.
So I'll just back up and saythat I was military police.
I was the kid who listened todare, uh, and enforced that
right and okay.
And I had friends.
You know, I was in las vegasand I had friends that were in
the raving environment.
I'd go to some raves and I'donly drink alcohol and try to
(26:43):
keep up, but I'd see and I'dfeel their different energy and
was starting to get curious.
So I then went to Amsterdam onmy Euro trip after getting out
of the army and that was where Idid MDMA and marijuana for my
first time.
And that was just a really bigmoment, that a feeling.
(27:08):
These are two different moments,but doing MDMA for the first
time at a festival there was,yeah, a really I felt presence,
I felt grounded, I felt like Icould trust myself and others, I
felt my mind calm down, I feltmusic in my bones and in my
cells and that led to me goingwow, I need to know more about
(27:32):
this substance, this medicine,and I need to also know how to
reach this state of compassionand love and connection and
trust, sober.
And that led me to pursuemeditation and yoga and other
practices.
So after grad school I met somelocal the maps was still doing
(27:57):
their research on their phasethree study and there was
actually a group of therapistsdoing that locally and so I got
connected to them to kind oflearn more about what they're
doing.
And that led to me getting areally a big blessing of getting
connected to an opportunity togo and attend the training
specifically for therapistsworking with veteran populations
(28:18):
.
So I did that at the Bronx VAand was with like 45 other
people that were like therapistsin the VA system Bronx VA and
was with like 45 other peoplethat were like therapists in the
VA system and, yeah, it wasreally a rewarding and
incredible experience.
I was one of like five veterantherapists there in the training
and you had to watch theveterans go through the
(28:39):
treatment.
We were watching videos of themgoing through the medicine and
I experienced a lot of like bothhaving my therapist hat and my
veteran hat during that, andwatching that unfold was
incredibly powerful.
So that's supposed to be legal.
The FDA just received theirfull packet from MAPS and
(29:01):
they're supposed to be decidingon that in August and that'll be
federal approval for therapy.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
So you said you loved being able to watch that.
What, what was that like what?
What did they actually gothrough?
As much detail as you canprovide I'd love to, especially
from the veteran side.
What did you witness unfold?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Have you heard of internal family systems?
It's hard to work, so I'll putit into a nutshell, but Dick
Schwartz, no bad parts is agreat book to look into on this.
But it's this idea that theself, the mind, is not a unitary
self, but rather we have kindof these different parts.
(29:47):
We have these wounded, exileparts that are carrying the
shame, the trauma, the fear, thesadness, whatever it might be.
And then we have theseprotector parts managers and
firefighters they're called, andthey have these different
strategies, these different waysthat they've learned throughout
life to protect us from those X, those wounded parts getting
(30:09):
triggered.
Maybe it's using substances toavoid or numb, or maybe it's
using video games or computer orwhatever it might be to avoid,
numb, block, run away from, shutdown, and yeah.
So MDMA helps to calm the fearresponse in the amygdala, the
(30:33):
fight or flight part of ourbrain.
It also boosts trust in selfand other.
So when you think about PTSD,moral injury and you're in
therapy, that's some really goodthings to be feeling improved
trust to go into that terrain,and it also increases empathy,
which is why I want to do itwith couples as well.
(30:54):
It's really ideal for coupleswork.
But so, yeah, you watch theseveterans as they go through and
they're able to not get stuck inthe normal defense strategies
and blocking and avoiding,because the fear response is
calmed and their trust isimproved and they're able to go
to those core wounded placeswith a shit ton of love and
(31:18):
compassion from all the oxytocinand dopamine and serotonin and
they're able to rewrite you knowwhatever stuck beliefs about
themselves or about the worldthat are maybe maladaptive
beliefs from those experiencesthat are maintaining internal
conflict or relational conflictor other challenges in their
(31:38):
life.
And so what they found is that,yeah, 70 percent of veterans
responded so favorably aftergoing through the um, their
their 12 total sessions, three,three, mdma, uh, seven, 70% are
no longer diagnosed with PTSD.
Yeah, so it's.
(31:59):
That's incredible.
Yeah, and you said 12 sessions,only three had in sessions are
eight hour long and then therest are kind of prep and
integration sessions.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Okay, and you had said earlier just because I
could hear people asking thequestion of great, so I'm just
going to take drugs, more drugsfor the rest of my life.
But you had referenced earlierthat your goal was how do I feel
this way sober?
Is that the overarching plan?
(32:30):
So, when somebody goes throughthis sort of therapy is to
achieve a state where theyaren't taking this drug any
longer well, at least to treatthemselves yeah, yeah, and it's
up to the individual to decidewhat their relationship is going
to be with that substance.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
But to be intentional about what is it?
And and yes, overall the goalhere is to not make it just
another psychotropic med that wehave to take every day for the
rest of our life or whatever tonumb or dull symptoms, but that
there's more transformativehealing going on here.
And but for some, maybe they dothree, five sessions and
(33:08):
they're done for life and theydecide that they're good.
For others, maybe they comeback in and they do one or two a
year, you know, on their own orwith a therapist.
That's that's up to them decide.
And there's a lot of factors tokind of consider there around.
Yeah, each individual'srelationship with it.
But, um, yeah, does that answer?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
yeah, for sure.
I was just very curious.
I I thought it was interestingthat you had stated that that's
what integration is really.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
You know about is mining.
From what happened during themedicine session, what came up
and what did you do in that, inthat altered state, and what did
you learn?
And how do we take thoseinsights and and those new ways
of relating to yourself andothers and how do we, how do we
find other ways to maintainthose changes into your life?
(33:59):
That's that's really key thatthe, the medicine, whether it's
psilocybin or mdma or whateverit might be, is not the magic
fix, um, but it, combined withyour inner healing intelligence,
the, the force, the wisdomwithin you that heals your
wounds, um, if you get a scratchor cut right, is always looking
(34:25):
out for you and trying to helpyou heal and evolve and to adapt
.
And so how do you take that, inaddition to the medicine and
maybe working with yourtherapist or other support
systems in your life, and figureout how to create changes in
your lifestyle and in yourrelationships to maintain
feeling better?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
so what is some common kickback that you hear
from people that might know,because I'm very interested in
this, just because I mean 70%,that's a big number.
That's not like 15%, like itworked for some people, like 70%
, that's a large number ofveterans to be no longer
diagnosable with PTSD.
(35:07):
So what is some common kickbackyou hear, or maybe cons there
or reasons that people saythey're against it.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
There was a lot of misinformation with the DARE era
and the Reagan era of the waragainst drugs that are still
definitely in our culture andshaping people's assumptions
around.
Drugs rot your brain the oldfrying the egg commercial.
Drugs rot your brain that willfry in the egg commercial.
And yeah, there was really themain contraindications.
(35:42):
The main concerns are that youdon't have any heart problems,
right, because it does elevateyour heart rate, but they didn't
have any adverse side effects.
So it's really amazing howbecause it does elevate your
heart rate but they didn't haveany adverse side effects, so
it's really amazing how healthyit is.
We still need longer-termresearch on the effects on
neurons.
There's some rat studies thatshow the potential for some
(36:10):
breakdown and some nerve endingsand I'm speaking not with a
fresh review of this and thisagain is also why we're not
trying to take this every dayand do more and more higher,
higher doses long term.
This is where it is something tohave reverence with and and to
(36:32):
moderate that makes a lot ofsense other people might have
concerns, just given theirgeneral distrust in all the
years of big pharma and themedical establishment, and then
they'll just see this as anothernew round of that.
That.
We have to kind of work withthose very wise concerns and
(36:56):
cautions and, uh, but this isvery different, you know, and
it's therapy combined with themedicine, not just throwing
another medicine.
So it's creating a whole newsystems in our, in our
government and in our medicalfield when we're combining this
interdisciplinary model into thesame practice, yeah, which
(37:17):
turns into a whole slew ofthings.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
No, that makes it makes a ton of sense.
I love, mark, just yourperception of being a veteran
and how you're able to bringthis to the table, because you
know essentially a lot ofveterans might be struggling
with being open to somethinglike this, and I love that
you've got your deployments, oryour deployment over to
Afghanistan, and just it's aconnection point that I think a
(37:42):
lot of people will listen toyour voice about it some more,
and I just think it's reallycool.
You're definitely the person tobe talking to.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Now you had said earlier about echo chambers and
we kind of get stuck in our ownlittle spot of.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah.
I'm just hearing our thing andI'm definitely connected to a
lot of awesome veteranorganizations that are doing
this work, like heroic heartproject Uh, they they bring.
I actually went with them anddid ayahuasca in Peru and they
send down vets to do that aswell as.
Uh, they have a sister projectthat just formed for spouses
(38:23):
called the hope project, um tosend spouses down um to do
psilocybin and the missionwithin is in Mexico and they do
um, I think they do five MEO,dmt and invoke, they do other
psychedelics and there's alsovets, which is veterans
exploring treatment solutions,headed by Marcus Capone, former
(38:45):
Navy seal, and his wife.
Uh, so, yeah, I'm definitelylike always in those realms and
so it just feels like there's somuch traffic around these
topics.
But yeah, that's cause I'm in,you know those circles.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
But yeah, for sure.
You mentioned ayahuasca.
I actually just talked to abuddy that just went down and
had an experience, quite theexperience about.
He was raving about it.
What were your thoughts onayahuasca?
How was that experience for you?
Speaker 1 (39:14):
man it was.
It was um, to just be in peruand be on the like we were right
off the amazon river.
So just for me, like I used towant to be a wildlife biologist
like.
So that was just like a for me,like, so happy to be around
wildlife biologist, so that wasjust like A for me, so happy to
be around all the insects andreptiles.
(39:35):
We'd swim in the river manydays and to see the dolphins in
the river go by was incredible.
But, yeah, definitely one of themost intense psychedelics on
planet earth that you know hasbeen being used for hundreds, if
(39:55):
not thousands, of years,ceremonially, um, and we are
very much altering, rightthrough consumerism and two or a
psychedelic tourism, we're verymuch altering.
That practice again changes.
The only constant so I'm nottrying to say good or bad, but
different impacts when you knowwhat was formerly a shaman
(40:16):
operating for free because ofreciprocity in a community, is
now monetized and so that bringsin all different types of, you
know, variables to thatcontainer and to what that, what
that is, um, yeah, it's muchmore.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
You want to just kind of hear and like I wonder what
questions you have, because justcurious to hear about it and I
know my buddy's story about it,um, but I think anybody
listening might benefit fromunderstanding what it what it
was like.
I don't know what yours was,but he actually went down
(41:02):
because you said with the shamanand I don't know.
I know that he paid.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
It was definitely a tourist uh adventure, without a
doubt, but it sounded like itwas more of a guided experience
I was just curious what yourswas like we did 10 days there
and we did five rounds of doing,uh, ayahuasca, so we'd have a
(41:28):
medicine day and a break day anda medicine day and a break day.
But the break days were veryaction-packed.
Uh, we would do, you know, andthis wasn't their first time do
it working with heroic heartsproject and having veterans come
through.
So they've been doing this nowfor years.
And, uh, we did things liketrauma release exercises, we did
ecstatic dance workshops andholotropic breath work.
(41:53):
Um, you know, they're feedingyou a special diet the entire
time.
That's really friendly toayahuasca because you, it is a
purgative.
So a lot of people, most people, every time they drink will,
will vomit or throw it up, whichthat in and of itself can be
therapeutic.
While you're in that alteredstate, um, and they, they really
(42:14):
view purging as a way tocleanse the body, like it's the
body's natural way to get rid oftoxins or, uh, sickness, right,
whether through either end.
Um, and so they'll have.
Yeah, I mean, I'm getting allover the place.
My mind can start just kind ofshotgunning in all these
different ways.
I want to keep, yeah, but, um,sometimes, when you're vomiting
(42:41):
and you're in that altered state, there's memories or visions or
images that are associated withwhat you're purging.
You know, maybe, what aboutyour identity or your traumas or
your pain?
You'll kind of feel it comingout of your body.
Uh, so as as as.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, it's very challenging, but also can be
beautiful, um and on the breakday did you feel as if that was
actually purged from you.
Like those, those feelings,that trauma, those thoughts, did
that actually feel as if it waspurged from you?
Speaker 1 (43:17):
I definitely did some .
You know, none of my medicineceremonies have done all the
work.
There's always different layersthat come at different times.
Um, that I was ambushed inafghanistan, um, and so I
definitely had some strongprotective parts that were
constantly operating in inlooking at, you know, in social
(43:38):
situations, looking to be reambushed, and not maybe
literally, but maybe in otherways.
Just this, this narrative ofthis part that's concerned that
others are planning something,they're all in on something that
not necessarily they're goingto try to kill me, but that
there's planning somethingthey're all in on something that
not necessarily they're goingto try to kill me, but that
there's just they're planningsomething that I'm not aware of.
Um, so I was able to do somedeep work with that protective
(44:00):
part and really appreciate howmuch it's trying to protect me
from being surprised andoverwhelmed and panicked and how
long it's been operating thatway to try to look out for me
and and to really sit with thatgratitude and um, that helped it
to really uh calm down asignificant amount.
(44:20):
Um, yeah, it's hard to, it'sreally ineffable and hard to
describe all the ways that theseexperiences uh translate and
unfold in your life.
I was recently doing psilocybinwith a group of veterans here in
(44:42):
Colorado and had always had.
You know, I had this moment offreezing during my ambush and
the freeze response, right, is acombination of of being stuck
and I don't know if I shouldfight or if I should run right.
That energy gets stuck in thebody and the nervous system and
(45:17):
that would show up for me.
You know, even like,recreationally, I would
sometimes, you know, go toparties or concerts and take
psychedelics and then I wouldhave kind of a free shutdown
response where I would just getoverwhelmed with what was
showing up in those variousprotective parts and I would
just kind of look to my wife andjust she'd know that I was
struggling and my, my way tocope with that was to just kind
(45:38):
of shut down.
And so it was really powerfulrecently to have a really strong
container where I knew, youknow, one of the facilitators,
tim Spola, good friend and afellow.
He's an army ranger and deployedto Iraq three or five times and
(45:59):
he's also a psychedelictherapist here, and so he was
yeah, we've connected prior tothis event and he's the one who
invited me to it.
So me having the knowing thathe was a facilitator was really
different in terms of shapingthat container for me to feel,
especially because he'sdisclosed some of his
experiences in his journey withmoral injury and PTSD.
(46:21):
So that allowed me to feel agreater trust in not feeling
like I need to protect or takecare of or be worried about the
people around me, need toprotect or take care of or be
worried about the people aroundme, which allowed me to move
through that freeze response andinto actually deep rage and
sadness and fear and to reallylike let it all out.
(46:41):
Um, which was really yeah, Ididn't get to experience that my
ayahuasca journey because Ididn't quite have the same trust
in the container of thefacilitators who were not
veterans.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Um, yeah, so curious sounds like it's, it's no, I'm
just a really grateful for youto share just really in depth
these experiences and kind ofwhat, what you've gone through,
because I think it's veryhelpful for people listening to
be able to understand that youknow they're not on the journey
solo, and they might be on thejourney solo, but there's other
(47:18):
people that have been on similarjourneys and I think it's just
really, really incredible thatyou're open to sharing it and
also that it takes, like you hadsaid earlier.
It's not just the one like theayahuasca wasn't just the one
time fix that there were.
It's a journey of continuing toexplore where you're at
(47:38):
personally, and so I'm justappreciating you sharing all of
that.
Thanks, yeah, well, thank youfor sharing it.
It's pretty incredible stuff.
Anybody listening right nowthat might be contemplating,
jumping in just attempting toexperiment with some
psychedelics what thoughts, whatwould you tell them?
Speaker 1 (48:01):
There's a great Netflix series and book by
Michael Pollan called how toChange your Mind.
Okay, and the Netflix serieshas like six episodes or
something like that and coversthe history and the culture and
the current research around MDMA, psilocybin, ayahuasca and, I
believe, lsd.
So that's a great way to startlearning and you'll learn about
(48:26):
things like set and setting,which are set is the mindset
that you're bringing into theexperience, based on where
you're normally at in your mindday to day, based on what you do
in prepping and coming intoyour consciousness.
You know like or how you'reshaping your consciousness.
You know before you take themedicine and then what you do
(48:49):
for the setting is well, whereare you, what's the space like
inside, outside, who's aroundyou, what's your feeling of
trust or what's yourrelationship like with the
people around you.
That's going to really shapewhat can come up and where
you're at emotionally,energetically.
So these are some of thevariables you need to start
(49:09):
considering.
I'm not at all a person who saysthat it's only therapeutic and
good and healthy if you do it ona couch with a therapist, with
headphones and eye shades.
That's one way, but it's alsobeen extremely therapeutic for
me to be at a rave and on MDMAwith really close friends and to
have just all this heartfeltsharing of what we love about
(49:31):
each other and just reallyenjoying music.
That is also therapeutic inmany ways, um.
So I'd also want to rep thefireside project.
They are providing free,anonymous, um, psychedelic harm
reduction support, so so you cancall them.
(49:51):
They're open like 20 hours outof the day or something like
that, and if you're having adifficult time and you're
wanting to talk to someone maybeyou're not trusting anyone
around you and you want to getsupport, they have therapists
who are on the phone waiting tohelp you kind of walk you
through that experience.
So that's a good resource tohave.
Help you kind of walk youthrough that experience.
(50:11):
So that's a good resource tohave.
There's also drug testing drugtesting kits that you can get
from dance safe and otherorganizations that can at least
help you to learn what's not inyour substance.
You know, especially when we'retalking about a, two CB or MDMA
, or you know the risk offentanyl and other things
(50:33):
getting in.
You want to be more cautious,for sure, about what's in or not
in your substances.
That's where psilocybin is alittle less scary.
Yeah, there's bad mushrooms outthere, but if you know it's the
right species, you're good togo.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
It seems like there's definitely some bad press
around that you always hearabout just different drugs out
that there's, you know, I guessthe news and the media throws
out if there's bad batches ofjust whatever that's killing
people, I think that that stuffis good to be aware of it and
also probably creates, I wouldimagine, a negative connotation
(51:13):
around some of these things yeah, and is that the drug?
Speaker 1 (51:16):
or is that our culture that has put a war on
drugs and we're not regulatingand making healthy versions that
are accessible for people touse, like they've been in
portugal?
You know what?
What are we really vilifyinghere?
Speaker 2 (51:30):
what have they done in Portugal?
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Oh, they decriminalized.
I don't remember when this was,but decades ago they just
learned that it wasn't workingthe war on drugs and so they
just made them regulated andaccessible and they offered
therapeutic services and theyhave seen addiction rates and
other maladaptive symptomsplummet because people are able
(51:55):
to not get stuck in the prisonpipeline and are getting other
resources connected to their useand they're getting healthy
access to and not wanting to buyit on the street or from
distrusting sources.
Because it's regulated.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Right, I think that's .
I travel around the country andusually people find out from
colorado.
Every now and again I'll getasked still, like, what's it
like to have weed legal?
Like, honestly, it's like it'snot for me and I, honestly, I
wouldn't even notice it if anymore than anywhere else I've
ever lived.
You know, I think it's sointeresting that we we made it
(52:34):
massively just available.
You know, you can walk down thestreet go buy it.
But I don't think, personally,I don't think it's really
changed anything as far as whatpeople do and don't do.
I don't think it became legaland people that were never going
to try it anyway just like,well, I gotta go do it now.
You know it didn't createpeople, just created a space
where somebody can go buy itwithout having to do so
(52:55):
illegally.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
It's interesting and we have a lot, you know, as we
go through what we call ourpsychedelic renaissance in the
west, like this is yeah, that'swhat we're going through in the
west, but psychedelics have beenused for throughout human
evolution.
Like you know, there's there'sthere's the stoned ape theory
that's thought that it might'vehad a really important role in
our brain evolution.
You know, finding fungi andwhat that led to, um, as well as
(53:20):
other cultures using itmedicinally, intentionally for
thousands of years.
So it's not a psychedelicRenaissance in the scope of
human human history, but it isin our Western paradigm, um,
human history, but it is in ourwestern paradigm and, yeah, it's
going to bring up a lot, youknow, dropping that, this
emergence into capitalism andinto, in, you know, our, our
(53:41):
culture that hasn't had thesepractices be normalized and held
by elders and be passed downintergenerationally.
It's going to create alldifferent versions and types of
how we commodify it and adapt toit or don't adapt to it.
In our education and practicesthat we really need to learn and
(54:02):
look to folks like the Mazatecin Mexico or the Shipibo shamans
in Peru and really learn andrespect and appreciate and give
back to them, because they'vebeen tending to these medicines
far longer than we have.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Very interesting you had and I'm curious to ask you
about it.
But you mentioned the stonedape theory.
Yeah, what is that?
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Oh gosh, I haven't read a a deep dive on it, but
it's that.
Look up.
Uh, paul stamets is probably.
There's probably someone elsewho's coined it, but paul
stamets definitely talks aboutit.
He's a famous mycologist.
Um, it's this idea that youknow.
There's a lot of variables thatled to the brain growing from
(54:53):
our use of fire and cooking foodand providing protection, and
how that changed our sleephabits.
I can nerd out on that, butit's thought that, additionally,
there's something about the use, you know, finding these
psychedelic mushrooms.
It was an accident, you know,and but something about that may
(55:15):
have contributed to moreprefrontal cortex expanding.
I wish I knew greater details.
Speaker 2 (55:24):
No, that makes.
That makes sense, though, likewhat you're saying.
Makes sense what?
Speaker 1 (55:29):
With sleep when we moved from sleeping more as
primates in the trees to usingfire.
What that allowed is it alloweda form of protection and warmth
for us to move from sleeping inthe trees to sleeping on the
ground.
And what that allowed is deeperstages of REM sleep, because if
you got too deep into the REMsyou might fall out of the tree
(55:51):
and break a limb or die.
So when you're sleeping on theground you can have these longer
periods of deeper REM sleep.
And REM sleep is when we gointo the dream state, and the
dream state is thought to bewhere we come up with ideas and
birth new cultures.
So you add psychedelics to thatmix.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Interesting, Wow, I had never and it makes perfect
sense, but I've not heard ofthat.
We're just and it makes againcrystal clear whether we move
from the trees to the ground,then we can actually sleep
better, which further enhancedjust evolution and growth.
So you're, I would imagine, afirm believer in getting good,
healthy sleep yeah, yeah, why doyou do you?
(56:41):
no, I'm just curious.
It's something that got broughtup earlier.
I did an interview with agentleman.
He actually just had a bookcome out, um chris free, and his
book is operator syndrome,which is this term.
He actually worked in the vafor 25 years.
I think an operator syndrome isa different um, different than
(57:05):
the mortal injury, differentthan ptsd.
But he breaks it down.
But one of the things that hetalked about pretty heavily was
sleep as well and just theimportance of it and how a lot
of times it can get disruptedwith some of these things and it
prevents us from getting thesleep that we need.
So I just like to pick people'sbrains.
I think sleep personally, Ibelieve sleep is very, very
important and I think I'm veryexcited to see this shift in
(57:29):
narrative where it used to beback to the masculinity, where I
was like, oh, I only need tosleep two hours a night.
I was like okay, great.
Like how healthy is your body?
Like what is that doing to youlong term?
Like yes, I can operate on twohours of sleep, but what is the
most effective thing?
So just anybody that piques theinterest of it or mentions it,
I just love to pick their brainlike what what thoughts do you
(57:51):
have about sleep habitscurrently?
Speaker 1 (57:54):
so my primatology professor for anthropology was
dr david samson.
Um, he's written, he I thinkhe's got another.
His recent book is our tribalfuture our tribal future but he
uh does research on sleeps sleepin primates, um, so he might be
someone that you're interestedin.
(58:14):
But yeah, when you think alsoabout being nomadic hunter,
gatherers in africa and how thissystem evolved for over 200 000
years, um, prior to modernagriculture societies, and, um,
we were going and foraging and,and then we bring back the food,
(58:38):
we eat it, we'd sleep, we'd goout and do that again, or we'd
play, or we'd connect and we'dsleep again.
Like we were sleeping a lotmore, uh, in different
especially just to cope with theheat, um, and so there was just
a lot more intermittent sleepthroughout the day, rather than
just this you know, sleep eighthours so that you can work all
(58:59):
day, kind of paradigm.
Speaker 2 (59:05):
It's very interesting .
What did you say his name was?
Dr David Sampson yeah, he'sdefinitely done a lot of
research on sleep, but yeah, I'mexcited to dive deeper into
that and another, another time,and thank you so much for
(59:27):
sharing all of this information,all of this knowledge, for for
anybody that wants to reach out,is there a good space that
somebody could reach out, pickyour brain, ask you questions is
it okay?
Speaker 1 (59:36):
yes, uh, I want to come back to one thing.
Did you?
You said you down, youdownloaded tribe.
I did yeah.
Have you already been listeningto that, or is that on your?
Speaker 2 (59:50):
list.
I didn't, it is, it's next up.
I just finished um this book.
There I'm training for a bigrun that I'm doing.
I'm doing a 40-mile race thissummer so I've been reading a
lot about ultramarathons.
So I just finished this onebook about the rise of
ultramarathons and I juststarted this other one called Do
Hard Things, which camerecommended and the Tribe is up
(01:00:14):
next.
So no, and I will get to it, Iwould say, by the end of next
week.
I'll be into it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Cool, cool.
Yeah, what made you bring it up.
You're our conversation at theveteran event about.
You're wondering arounddifferences in vet integration
and why some struggle more thanothers is wondering.
(01:00:44):
Yeah, one, go back to that yeah, absolutely, I'm glad you did.
Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
I was actually going to ask you before we closed out,
like, what have we not talkedabout that?
Uh, we should be talking about?
But yeah, for me it's.
It was something that I was Ireally spent a lot of.
For me, it was something that Iwas I really spent a lot of
time thinking about because itfelt like we had me and my unit
and a lot of my buddies.
We all went through very similarexperiences and so, after
(01:01:09):
getting out, I was wondering whydid some people struggle more
than others?
And again, I know, even thoughwe weren't, if you're right next
to each other, you're lookingthrough a different lens, which
is something I've appreciated.
What you shared earlier, evenwhen you talk about different
topics, that this is the lens Ichoose to look through this with
, and that's essentially what'shappening with everybody.
You know we all have ourfilters that we look at the
(01:01:32):
world through and correct me ifyou have contradictory thoughts
with any of this, but I wouldimagine that creates a lot of
the perception of the experiencethat we're in is the lens that
we have currently at that time,and it's just something that's
fascinated me is why is it thatsome veterans.
A lot of people go through thesame things, and some people
tend to thrive, some peoplestruggle, and so, yeah, that's
(01:01:55):
something that's always on mymind.
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
Yeah, it was something that I really
struggled with and asked myselflike why was I struggling and
beating myself up so much aboutwhen my moral injury kind of set
in in that anthropology class?
And later on like why and I Idon't know if I have a
(01:02:17):
definitive answer you know I'vewondered and explored the roots
of that of growing up with, youknow, family development and
growing up with a single motherand how that created just
challenges to feel confidentresponse to my military service
and coming from like a place ofguilt or shame.
(01:02:46):
So I wonder about people'srelationship already with what
traumas they had already intheir life and what insecurities
they already had and how thatconnects to what they did in
their time in the military andthen how that connects to then
integration.
I think about what is yourlocal culture that you're
(01:03:08):
returning to.
Are you returning to ananthropology class or are you
returning to a lot of otherpeople who are pro-war and
pro-military and and and youknow it's that same type of echo
chamber to where you're notgetting challenged as much to
kind of look at yourself andwhat you you know what you've
(01:03:29):
done in new ways and how thatunfolds in shaping our yeah, our
development so wonder to theisolation.
Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
It seems like some people get out and isolate and
instead of being exposed to allof these things, now we're just,
you know, in isolation andthere's so many things coming
out, I mean, and it's stuffwe've known about for a long
time, but just how connected weare and how much we need human
connection in our lives, andthat the isolation, even without
(01:04:06):
trauma, somebody that isolatesis going to struggle, but now
take all the trauma that led upto it and then isolate, and
that's not a great recipe.
Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
Yeah, gabriel Mate is an MD that does a lot of work
with trauma.
He's wrote the Myth of Normal.
He does a lot of work on ADHD.
He's like the worst part oftrauma is not the actual not the
actual traumatic experience,but the ongoing state of feeling
alone with your experience andnot understood and not seen you
(01:04:37):
know and not able to bring aloving witness to that, that
experience.
Curious for you that what yourresponse to integration here and
and what you think wassupportive or not supportive to
that.
Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
It's a great question , I think, for me.
Looking back in hindsight, Ithink I can see it all like this
was great and this was greatand this was.
These were these great thingsthat helped me.
Yet they weren't planned out,things like I didn't.
(01:05:20):
So I share, I share it, and butit wasn't a strategically
planned out thing.
But I got out of the military.
I followed a girl up intonorthern california and I was
supposed to go stay with her andI got enrolled in a school
there and I used to be a swimmerin high school and I swam and
you know, being a recon Marineis big time, swimming is huge.
(01:05:40):
I was like I'm going to jointhe swim team and, um, right
after the school started up, Ifound out the girl uh, and just
insert just another ticket ofgirl cheats on guy while in the
military.
And so I found out about hercheating and instantly just left
.
But I had nowhere to go.
(01:06:02):
All my family lives in NewOrleans.
So I'm like I don't think Icould be further away from my
family and friends.
And I remember swimming in theswimming pool at practice and I
told my buddy, craig, I was likedude, I need a place to live.
I don't know where I'm going.
He's like oh, corey needs aplace to live, and Corey was
this guy that he was gettingready to join, and this is the
dumb luck part of this he wasgetting ready to join the navy
and he wanted to be a navy sealand I was like, yeah, of course,
(01:06:24):
like everybody wants to be anavy seal, like whatever, but I
need a roommate.
And uh, he ended up being areally cool dude.
We became roommates and we swamon the team.
Well, he, uh, he had a greatplan because all he did was
everything he did his last yearbefore going to boot camp was he
was on a marathon running team,he was on a swim team, the
water polo team, he did one yearof prep work to go past Buds
(01:06:47):
and he did.
He went and he did go past Budsand he's a Navy SEAL he's about
to retire soon.
But all that to say that Iended up as a roommate with him.
We were the hub where everybodyfrom this junior college that
we went to came to hang out, andso I immediately got integrated
like force, integrated intojust all these really cool
people that were very openingand welcoming.
(01:07:09):
That I never had.
I never had friends like that,even before the military, and it
was just a beautiful, beautifulexperience for me to get forced
into, because I know that Iwouldn't have had that, even if
I would have stayed with thatgirl, I wouldn't have had that,
and that's where I say a lot.
It was really lucky, so thatwas really good.
I'd always wanted to get myskydiving license, which I think
(01:07:31):
I'd recommended that book toyou the Stealing Fire so I
started skydiving, which there'sa lot of studies done, and then
there's a correlation, similarbut different in that, that
sense of presence and focus thatyou talked about with mdma,
that that anytime you're in anexperience that it forces your
mind to be present, you knowthat's skydiving is one of those
(01:07:51):
like I might die right now andyou are.
There's nothing else thatyou're thinking about except
what is going on and how you'refalling to the ground and and,
and it's a fascinating thing.
Again, I didn't know thehealing that it was most likely
doing for me, um, but that was,that was excellent.
So I think that one year of mylife was pivotal for a pretty
(01:08:14):
solid transition for mepersonally, um, so, yeah, I
don't know if that does thatanswer your question with it
yeah, I mean I'm hearing theways that you you found pretty
quickly a new sense of tribe orcommunity.
Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
You know that that I'll support it to you and
that's one thing I'm hearing.
And, um, I shared some of theways that I, through the labels
of my identities, createdbarriers to feeling like I could
talk about my experience withveteran peers wilderness
retreats where we do deepreadings and hiking and we do
(01:08:51):
yoga and we have deepdiscussions and how much that
helps me, in addition to veteranwriting workshops I
participated in to help me justto kind of like seeing that
everyone can have their ways,that they will isolate or create
(01:09:13):
reasons of the not belonging ornot feeling understood, and and
to get more of that cross talkand more of that support outside
of the military with um, stillwith the veteran culture.
But being able to have justdifferent types of conversations
to to heal together is reallyso important, as you're saying
(01:09:33):
oh yeah, well, I think that'simportant, as you're saying.
Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Oh yeah, well, I think that's it's very important
.
And it's one thing you know andI look over this way because
it's you know, I got lungs peakthis 14er sitting over here and
actually I did an episode a longtime ago about it.
But you know, it's kind of likeif we went and climbed to the
top of that 14er up there, thisis a beautiful mountain and it
would be a just a wow, it wouldbe an amazing experience.
You know, some crazy stuffwould happen, like we'd run out
(01:10:01):
of water, there'd be laughs andthere'd be jokes and and we
would go up there and takepictures and then we'd come back
down and we try to tell peopleabout it and they're like oh
yeah, that's cool, but it's likeno, but this picture doesn't
like you're not as excited as Iam, because I was there like it
was crazy and you just don't getit.
And it's like, well, you can't,unless you climb to the top,
you won't know, and it doesn'tmake anybody right, wrong and
(01:10:23):
different.
And I often think of thatcomparison and that you know, as
veterans, like we climb to thetop of that mountain and it
doesn't mean it's like mountain,as if, like, that's the best
mountain, it's just to the topof the mountain.
People that weren't on thejourney.
They're not going to know whatit was like.
They can't.
It would belittle theexperience if they could know
what it was like without beingthere.
(01:10:44):
Yet I think a lot of veteransexpect people to have that they
can't.
There's no way for them to.
They won't know what it's like.
They never will.
They can empathize andappreciate, but they won't know
and appreciate, but they won'tknow.
Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
I agree and I disagree.
Okay, how so?
I love disagreements.
I agree that they have notclimbed to that mountain that
you climb to and so thus theywill never know that full depth
of that experience.
And when we hold on to that, thenarrative especially for
veterans like that maintainsthat isolation.
So how can we find parallel orsimilar bridges to like, oh,
(01:11:29):
have you had an experience ofshared suffering with others in
a team dynamic where you'rerelying on one another and
you're moving through a sharedsuck together?
Like like you've got on asports team.
You're moving through a sharedsuck together?
Like like, yeah, you've got asports team.
Or have you been, like, tryingto find ways that we can,
because we all have the sameability to feel our feelings?
Yes, maybe we haven't had thesame types of traumas or levels
(01:11:51):
of traumas, but but when we canfind language of exploring
similar ways to access thesefeeling states, that can start
to form bridges of connection,which then decreases the
othering of like us versus them,veteran versus civilian, which
means the trauma being stuck inus and not being integrated into
(01:12:14):
the community, into the culture.
Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Yep, well, and so I would say I don't think of that
so much as a disagreement asmore of a yes, and totally,
because that's to me that what Iand I love where you're at with
it.
But that's step.
Step one is like, okay, justdon't come down from the
mountain and get pissed off,cause somebody doesn't know what
it's like to climb it.
But step two is let's empathizeand find out what mountain
(01:12:41):
they've climbed, like whatmountain, okay, where.
And that's the empathy state,because there is a shared
connection that you can findwith somebody, but it's when you
expect theirs to be similar toyours.
It's just.
But any, I talk to civiliansall the time that have been
through some stuff, like man,that was tough, like what you
went through in life was tough,and and you know, I don't, I
don't know anybody that thinksthat life is easy.
Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
I got it's just tough and yeah I'll say that that's
the greatest gift of my job.
Uh, not only getting to see andwitness people's healing and
evolution, but like how much Iget to see parts of myself or my
journey through them, but withtheir wisdom and their gifts and
their, their different ways ofhealing, like I get, so spoiled
(01:13:25):
I will appear.
A friend of mine calls thereflective healing.
You know, like I'm healing withthem while they're healing and
it's just they don't know whatI'm getting out of it near as
much, but it is such a bonus ofthis work.
Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
That's really, really cool.
I love that reflective healing.
Well, I really am excited to getour daughters together and see
if we can identify whose iswhose I don't know about yours
(01:14:04):
but my daughter we always jokelike we had a new babysitter,
that we had come over, and we'relike we had to prep them.
Like she's bleeding at leastonce a day or the day's not over
.
Like she is such a hard charger, like and I mean that like she
does the most ridiculous thingswhere it's like what are you,
what are you doing?
And I mean that like she doesthe most ridiculous things where
it's like what are you, whatare you doing?
And I mean like she'll just gethurt and then she just picks up
and just runs back to redo whatjust hurt her because she wants
(01:14:26):
to go conquer it.
So yeah, she's, she's.
Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
But I'm excited.
I'm gonna say to you whatpeople say to us when I describe
that about my daughter.
They're like yeah, look at,look at you and your wife, look
at what you two read, look atwhat you guys read yeah Of
course.
Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
I'm still thinking about the apple, but yeah, well,
this was a blast that I coulddo this for yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
Thank you, mark.
I appreciate it.
If anybody does have anythoughts, questions, is there a
way they can reach out, contactyou just to just to pick your
brain about anything you'redoing or working on totally yeah
, I'm on linkedin, I'm oninstagram at adaptive therapy
llc.
Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
My website is adaptive therapy LLCcom.
My wife and I are looking topivot into doing psychedelic
couples retreats and so thatwill be called evolving lovers
psychedelic retreats, to be tobe continued, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
Very cool.
Well, I really appreciate you.
Thank you so much.
It was a blast to get to meetyou just like two weeks ago, and
this was a wonderfulconversation.
I'm looking looking forward tothe next time yeah, let's hang
out and get beers again soon.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it, mark, thank you.
I didn't know what to do with that experience.
I just thought I was someunique.
You know, I was an atheist atthe time and so I felt like
there was something about thatand my major and I didn't feel
like I could talk to anyoneabout it, so I just buried it
down.
But I just knew like I'm goingto write out my remaining years
and find another path is what Idecided from that experience.
And it took oh gosh, I don'tknow how I don't remember how it
was, but how I discovered theterm moral injury or soul wound,
(00:23):
but it was probably took sevenor eight years before I
discovered that term and when Idid I was like bingo, like yeah,
I definitely had, you know,some milder PTSD symptoms coming
home and there's a lot ofoverlap in how these show up.
But there's a really differentway of healing and working with
it.
That is really different whenwe know that it's moral injury,
more so than PTSD, of what we'reworking with.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
My name is Thad David .
I'm a former Marine recon scoutsniper with two deployments to
Iraq.
As a civilian, I've nowfacilitated hundreds of personal
and professional developmenttrainings across the country,
and it struck me recently thatthe same things that help
civilians will also helpveterans succeed in their new
roles as well.
Join me as we define civiliansuccess principles to inspire
veteran victories.
Welcome to another episode.
(01:07):
I'm here today with Armyveteran Mark Cunningham.
How are you doing, mark?
Awesome, thank you.
I know we met just recentlythrough another veteran at a get
together where we were justsupporting vets and really
supporting this project thatthey had going and sparked up a
really great conversation.
Actually, me and Mark havedoppelganger daughters.
(01:27):
That it shocked us.
I think that was one of thethings that drew us to have a
conversation.
But, mark, if you could telleverybody a little bit about
yourself, what are you currentlydoing right now?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, so after serving seven years in the Army
National Guard as a militarypolice in Afghanistan, I came
back and finished my bachelor'sdegree in anthropology.
So I always had a love forstudying evolution of human
behavior, and I got out of theArmy in 2014 and I finished my
(01:59):
bachelor's at that same time.
Afghanistan really changed mymind about my service and
because I was before going topursue becoming an officer, and
so I, yeah, went and traveled abunch through europe and
southeast asia and then cameback and started grad school
here in fort collins at coloradostate university.
For their, marriage and familytherapy is the focus within
(02:23):
human development, and familystudies is the Masters of
Science track, and now I am inprivate practice.
So I graduated in 2017 and did afew years working at the
Student Counseling Center andthen, when COVID hit, that kind
of motivated me to branch out onmy own, and so I have since
(02:47):
then, added specializations Ialways wanted to become.
I was always really focused onsexual behavior, even back in
anthropology days, and so I'mnow an ASEC certified sex
therapist and I am a MAPS MDMAtrained therapist.
They're the ones who have kindof done the research with MDMA
(03:07):
and developed a trainingcurriculum.
So yeah, I use the labelpsychedelic therapist and, yeah,
I serve half couples halfcouples and half individuals in
my practice.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
There's so many things inside of that sounds
like just a very, veryinteresting job.
You said something earlier thatI would actually be curious to
ask you about.
You said it being inafghanistan changed your mind
about service, and just curious,before we jump into what you're
currently doing what whatchanged your mind about it?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
yeah, so, um, yeah, so my mom was in the Air Force.
My grandfather was retired fromthe Air Force he died when I
was five, but he was in Vietnamand there was definitely some
abuse in the family from himthat I didn't really learn about
until later on.
And my aunt retired from theAir Force, so I definitely had.
(04:01):
Yeah, I was the one went toArmy and wanted to be different.
My father was a Marine.
Although he was never in mylife, I definitely had that
military culture on top ofwanting to go to school and
whatnot.
I volunteered to deploy toAfghanistan.
(04:23):
I even switched units to do itand, as I said, I was doing my
anthropology degree while I wasin the army.
Right, I paused for threesemesters to go deploy.
And there's not a lot ofanthropology people in the
military about other, at leastin the army.
(04:46):
Um, so I was a bit of a uniqueguy that, you know, didn't feel
like I could really be myauthentic self very much, but,
um, I adapted and figured it out, as we all do.
Um, and I say all that priorcontext just to give you more
coloring around, maybe, how Iwas thinking differently about
(05:07):
my experience um, so I was, yeah, doing convoy security,
detaining operations, um,helping train and, in you know,
check the afghan national policeor afghan national Afghan
National Army would enroll themin a bat and hide system to make
sure they were clear, butmainly convoy security.
(05:31):
And fast forward to coming backfrom that.
And I was back in myanthropology class at 21 years
old and we're in our theorycourse and we're talking about
conflict theory and the ways inwhich you know, throughout
history, when, when war is beingbrought up, that you know one
(05:54):
culture will dehumanize andlabel another culture as savage
or subhuman in order to make iteasier to justify or motivate
people to want to kill our enemy.
And after, after having justbeen in Afghanistan for a year
and now sitting in this classnow with you know all these
getting all intellectual andnerdy, it was a really there was
(06:17):
something about that lecturethat really stirred a big shift.
It honestly felt like, um, thisoverwhelming kind of almost
like a frag grenade went offinside of me.
I was like I felt like my partsuh, just went in all different
directions and then I was justsitting there because there was
(06:38):
something about that discussionthat I think formerly was
compartmentalized in my mindaround and and I had kind of
realized how, like, yeah, I hadparticipated in some of that
culture of dehumanizing and howthat actually conflicts with
what feels like my moralfoundation and my values.
And that was that was kind ofthis moment of reckoning, and
(07:01):
and I was asking myself a lot ofstuff like what was me, what
was family, society, culturethat drove me to want to
participate in that?
It was just running through myhead.
Uh, I didn't know what to dowith that experience.
I just thought I was, um,unique.
Uh, you know, I was an atheistat the time and so I felt like
(07:22):
there was something about thatand my major and I didn't feel
like I could talk to anyoneabout it, so I just buried it
down.
But I just knew like I'm goingto write out my remaining years
and find another path is what Idecided from that experience.
(07:43):
And it took gosh, I don't knowhow I don't remember how it was,
but how I discovered the termmoral injury or soul wound, but
it was probably took uh, sevenor eight years before I
discovered that term.
And when I did, I was likebingo, like yeah, I definitely
had, you know, some milder ptsdsymptoms coming home, and
there's a lot of overlap in howthese show up, but there's a
(08:05):
really different way of healingand working with it.
That is really different whenwe know that it's moral injury,
more so than PTSD, of what we'reworking with.
So I'm gonna pause there andsee where you're at, because I
just you just struck something.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I just spoke with someone actually she's local as
well, but Mary Scott does thatring a bell.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, she actually introduced.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, she introduced me to the term.
So that was I don't know if yousaw my aha that I had.
I was like, oh, I literallyjust talked to her not long ago
and and she introduced, um, thattopic.
But that makes a lot of sense.
And you said you didn't talk toanybody, kind of bottled it in
for a little while for surewhich is an interesting because
(08:47):
I really enjoyed um, obviouslynot that you went through it,
but that that analogy used of afrag grenade going off on the
inside, where it was like got itbut then to hold it all in and
now, as a therapist, the goal Iwould imagine is to get people
to share.
Did you eventually startsharing your thoughts and what
(09:10):
was going on?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
yeah, what I don't again.
I don't remember exactly how Idiscovered the word, but you
know it led to finding umvietnam elders I don't know if
you've you've seen claude andshin thomas at hell's gate, but
(09:34):
he was a door gunner, uh, and he, at 18, was in vietnam and came
back and spiraled through, youknow, homelessness and various
addictions.
And then then do you know theVietnamese monk who passed a few
years ago, thich Nhat Hanh?
No, so he's pretty famous,written a lot of books and
really well-known in themindfulness community.
(09:56):
Anyhow, his social worker,claude, tells him about these
meditation retreats that ThichNhat Hanh is facilitating in
Europe at the time, and so hefinally ends up going out there
and he talks all about you know.
So Thich Nhat Hanh is aVietnamese monk, and so he's
(10:18):
triggering his old enemyresponse, right and same with
other staff are also Vietnamese,and so he's just constantly
getting triggered into his PTSDby these people, who are also
teaching him, though, how towork with that through Zen,
buddhism and how to de-enemifyhis former enemy.
(10:38):
And later on he goes through hisbeautiful childhood and being
raised by World War II vets andthe glorified hero narrative,
and then the difference of beinga Vietnam vet and and he talks
about, you know, reckoning withlike, am I a bad person because
of what I did?
Versus zooming out and viewingthe collective layers of like,
(11:01):
our conditioning and being bornat a certain time at a certain
place, in a certain family, in acertain culture, and just like
how that shapes our actions.
And, yeah, we're responsiblefor our actions, but that
doesn't make us a good or badperson.
That's, that's judgment.
So all that to say that likeyeah, looking to elders who have
written about these experiencesreally started to help me to
(11:23):
like resonate with theirexperience and find language and
find ways to start working with.
And then I yeah, I just nerdedout started doing research on
moral injury because yeah, goahead.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
No, I was gonna ask you what is your favorite book
on moral injury if somebodywanted to jump more into it or
favorite place for context um,you can go check out voaorg.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Um, they've got some videos and articles that are
easily accessible.
Um, and just voaorg slash moralinjury.
Um, I don't want to, yeah, gettoo into the like research
articles, but, um, no, that'sperfect.
Dr eduardo duran, he's also avietnam vet and he wrote healing
(12:09):
the soul wound and he comes,he's raised indigenous native
american and so he brings it andhe's a psychologist, so he
brings some really interestingperspectives on on working with
this spiritually.
Because that's the maindifference between PTSD and
moral injury is because they canlook a lot.
The symptoms can look a lot ofthe same stuff, but in the core
(12:32):
of it, moral injury is losingtrust in self and in other,
compared to losing a sense ofsafety With PTSD.
There can be overlap, for sure,but moral injury soul wound
requires a lot of spiritualhealing to address it.
That is a little bit moredifferent from PTSD tracks of
(12:54):
healing.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Got it.
Very interesting.
Thank you Thanks for sharingthat I was nice, unexpected aha,
and that I was not expecting tojump into.
But thank you thanks forsharing that I was nice,
unexpected aha, and that I wasnot expecting to to jump into.
But thank you for that.
And so here you are now, a sexand psychedelic therapist, which
is very intriguing.
(13:16):
What does a sex therapist do?
What do you do as a sextherapist?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
yeah, I um therapist.
Yeah, I um.
Sex therapy is a really broad,wide, open realm that you know.
We can talk about things likegender identity and exploration
to different ways of loving andrelationship orientations.
You know, non-monogamy kink,whatever it might be, and we can
(13:45):
help partners who maybe havedifferences in desire or and are
struggling to figure out how tohave sexual compatibility or
find compromise, or or they werejust raised with a lot of sex
negativity from really strongreligious conditioning and that
makes it really hard for them toknow how to talk about these
things.
To sexual health, there's a lotof.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Definitely you know it's a sexual trauma and so much
more um, okay, the deep, likeyou said, very broad and there's
, it's very like that's a.
There's a lot of things tounpack inside of that what I've
been loving recently.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
You know I definitely get a lot of male clients, you
know, coming in for likeperformance, anxiety, erectile
dysfunction.
How do I talk to my wife aboutmy porn?
I'd be like I have to hide itand lie about it.
So I finally created a men's.
I was sitting on it for alittle while but, uh, I'm in my
fourth week out of six weeks ofthem.
(14:43):
It's called evolving loversmen's sexuality group, so I have
six men who gather here and we,each friday and I will share
different readings or videos andthen we'll do a little
meditation and then we'll moveinto discussion.
And it has been so exciting andfun and beautiful and
vulnerable and real andsupportive and, uh, it's just
(15:08):
such an honor for me to likehold that space and be in it
with them and, uh, to feel the,the, the walls of loneliness and
isolation just unfold as peoplereally dive into authenticity
around these discussions ratherthan like locker room talk of
trying to, you know, seem coolor impress their friends right,
(15:30):
well, we never had any of thatin the military.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Uh, as you think about that loneliness, isolation
, what, what's, where does thatstem from?
Like what and again.
I don't want to get intoanybody's personal items, but
just out of curiosity, youmentioned to kind of lift the
wall, that loneliness andisolation.
Um, where does that come fromand what is that like?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
the first thing that popped into my head because
there's so many things that thatcan come from, you know, as I'm
sick, like with religious kindof or other societal or family
conditioning.
Um, you know, was your familysex positive?
Were they open to thosediscussions and having those
throughout your development and?
Um, were they accepting ofdifferent ways of talking about
(16:18):
sexuality and loving andrelationship styles?
Or were they sex negative?
Right, there's only one rightway to do sex.
Everything else is a sin and isbad.
And or were you more sex neutral, where they didn't really talk
about it ever?
If it was on the tv, if therewas something sexual content,
they'd kind of look away andpretend it doesn't exist.
These things, right, reallystart to shape what we think is
(16:39):
okay to talk about or not.
Um, that combined with um, yeah, perhaps rigid expectations of
what it means to be a man or notto be a man, um, classic
patriarchal societal impacts onon boys and men and how that
(17:00):
limits what we feel we canexpress or talk about are, yeah,
some things popping ininteresting.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
What are your thoughts on, because this is now
it's totally different pathway,but, um, there's a lot of stuff
, it seems like, coming outabout just raising a boy,
raising a man these days andjust kind of where everything is
seems to be going and,society-wise, like, what is your
thoughts on, just on that ingeneral, just raising a boy,
raising a man and just how it'scurrently done, thoughts just in
(17:32):
general.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Change is the only constant and we humans, just
like our environment, need toadapt to that change, and
culture is highly adaptable andis dependent on local
environment.
Um, I don't know if we'll havethe time, but I love nerding out
(18:00):
about the difference betweenchimpanzees and bonobos and how
that shapes their culture andhow that shapes their sexuality
and ways of relating to oneanother and also their
relationship with violence Ihave no idea and I really now
want to know about those twothings.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
So, if you don't mind , what is the, what is it, what
is the difference?
And, yeah, I would love, lovesecret about it.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Okay, and then maybe we'll go back to masculinity and
rites of passage and yeah.
Yeah, for sure, there's a bookcalled sex at dawn.
That's really a great overviewand deeper dive into this.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Have you heard of that, christopher?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
No.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Just like the way it sounds.
I have not.
No, I just like the way itsounds.
So bonobos and chimps are bothcurrent living modern day
ancestors right From about 6million years ago.
We diverged evolutionarily fromthem, but they're both our most
common recent living ancestors,so we can look to them for
clues to our evolution.
They live in the Congo andthey're separated by a mountain
(19:05):
range, and that separationcreates an environmental
difference, although it's a verysimilar environment.
Gorillas live on the same sideas chimps, and so gorillas are
another big ape, and so theyoccupy similar niche as the
chimpanzees.
So they're competing more forthe same access to local food
(19:27):
resources and shelter you knowhome environments and so there's
more struggle and competitionfor resources, right Whereas
bonobos are not competing withthose, and so in that
environment they have less of astruggle, and that brings about
a few things.
So for chimps they've developeda patriarchal culture where
(19:52):
males will use violence as a wayto ascend the social hierarchy
and to gain more access to morefood and more mates, whereas
bonobos are matriarchal.
So the females are checking ifthere is any male violence.
They're they're.
They're either going tosocially exile that male or
they're going to calm and soothehim in with some form of
(20:14):
physical pleasure, uh, sex, uh,and they also have within
bonobos.
They have a lot more variationof sex.
They help.
They'll have male, male, female, female genital rubbing.
They'll have oral sex.
They'll have what we call umventral, ventral or missionary
style sex, where they'veactually got eye gaze going on,
which brings about attachmentand oxytocin, like in humans,
(20:37):
whereas chimps only have umdorsal, dorsal or doggy style
sex.
Um, so it's really fascinatingwhat that all leads to, all
these different types of sex,but it also leads to a lot more
um, I'm gonna let that go.
I'm gonna let that go, um, okay, so what's what's really
(21:01):
interesting about this?
Right, is we can start tounpack and learn how environment
relates to culture and howthese ideas of what it means to
be masculine or feminine or areflexible and and ever evolving
and changing, and especiallywhen we think about humans
throughout the whole world andour access to resources and
competition shaped by our localresources and economies and
(21:23):
whatnot.
You know it?
That?
That's what that's a lens thatI think through um on this topic
.
Very interesting.
I also think through the lens ofhow most collectivistic
cultures will have rites ofpassage where you know there is
some type of ceremonial ritualfor male or females to gain
(21:48):
their manhood or their womanhood, and how you know, sometimes in
the West that might look likegetting your driver's license at
16 or drinking at 21, or andyou know not to say that people
don't create their own versions,but it's not standardized in
our culture.
Other cultures, like you know,go off and go, take a few days
(22:19):
and go and hunt some animal, orgo and survive on your own, or
take these psychedelics andreally shake up your sense of
what you think the world is andyourself is, and then come back
and integrate what you'velearned and show that you're,
you know, gaining maturity andunderstanding of yourself I'm
jotting this down.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I really it's intriguing to me.
What do you think about therites of passage?
Because I read a book recentlythat that was one of the things
that they had mentioned had leftand that it was difficult for
boys to grow into men and notinto the um, not to put any
terms around it, but toessentially depart the mother of
(22:55):
as the caring and like I'm ableto take care of myself and kind
of push away and it would.
The context of it was aroundhow many men these days, or boys
, seem to not really leave thehouse, not really leave home,
that far more boys are not goingto school, they're not going up
to college, they're not gettingjobs, they're not leaving the
house, and that was one of thereference points that he had
(23:18):
towards it.
Did you have anything, anythoughts on any of that?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
well, there's a um, yeah, I mean not having that,
those standardized rites ofpassage that other cultures
might have, definitely is ahandicap to human development.
Um, and so when you think aboutgenerations and generations of
that and those fathers andparents raising kids without
(23:46):
having had that themselves, youknow well that progresses, that
progresses, and it's beautifulthat we are not getting stuck
into these rigid boxes of whatit means to be a male and a
female, and there's a lot ofopening up there for people to
be able to express parts ofthemselves that they used to
have to feel like they had tohide from themselves or others.
(24:08):
But it also creates thisparadox of choice where you
define your own version of whatmasculinity is and like, wow,
how do I even begin to startfiguring out what that is?
It's a really wide open terrain.
Figuring out what that is likeit's a really wide open terrain,
so it can almost feeloverwhelming and challenging to
know where to begin.
(24:28):
Compared to just like, oh, aman is this?
You learn how to fix all thethings in the house and you wear
blue or you don't wear thiscolor.
You know you like whatever itmight be.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
for some people that's easier to have a box it's
interesting that you youmentioned that because we we
talk about it often with our kid.
We're pretty with our kids dowhatever they want, to do within
reason.
I mean, uh, as far as what theywant to play with or what toys
they want, what things they want.
Somebody said it wascommercials, but they've never
really seen a tv commercial.
(25:01):
They don't get a lot of tv.
Just the other day they got topick.
We bought a little donut makingkit and it was like pick
whatever color you want.
And my daughter was like I wantpink.
And my son was like I want blue, like why do you guys want
those colors?
And my son was like I love blue, I love sharks.
My daughter was like I loveunicorns and it was like, with
(25:24):
no priming, no reason, you know,it doesn't feel like we put
them in a box or the confinesthat they seem to be so
naturally gravitating towardsthat.
And it's always been intriguingto us because we're like look
at our basic, you know basickids just doing their thing and
we love them to death.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
But it was just, it's curious that you mentioned that
this is a blue and you're putin a box, but he seems to be
just naturally drawn to thatanyway, and the same with my
daughter.
Yeah, well, yeah, who knows?
I mean, we're never raised in avacuum.
There's always so muchinfluence coming at us from so
many different.
You know, even by age four,three or four yeah, there is.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
It was just a very interesting, very interesting
thing.
So, sex therapist we went waydown a different rabbit hole.
Uh, that I'm very happy that wetalked about.
So thank you for sharing all ofthat.
So sex therapist alsopsychedelics.
So what do you do as apsychedelic therapist?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
yeah.
So I'll just back up and saythat I was military police.
I was the kid who listened todare, uh, and enforced that
right and okay.
And I had friends.
You know, I was in las vegasand I had friends that were in
the raving environment.
I'd go to some raves and I'donly drink alcohol and try to
(26:43):
keep up, but I'd see and I'dfeel their different energy and
was starting to get curious.
So I then went to Amsterdam onmy Euro trip after getting out
of the army and that was where Idid MDMA and marijuana for my
first time.
And that was just a really bigmoment, that a feeling.
(27:08):
These are two different moments,but doing MDMA for the first
time at a festival there was,yeah, a really I felt presence,
I felt grounded, I felt like Icould trust myself and others, I
felt my mind calm down, I feltmusic in my bones and in my
cells and that led to me goingwow, I need to know more about
(27:32):
this substance, this medicine,and I need to also know how to
reach this state of compassionand love and connection and
trust, sober.
And that led me to pursuemeditation and yoga and other
practices.
So after grad school I met somelocal the maps was still doing
(27:57):
their research on their phasethree study and there was
actually a group of therapistsdoing that locally and so I got
connected to them to kind oflearn more about what they're
doing.
And that led to me getting areally a big blessing of getting
connected to an opportunity togo and attend the training
specifically for therapistsworking with veteran populations
(28:18):
.
So I did that at the Bronx VAand was with like 45 other
people that were like therapistsin the VA system Bronx VA and
was with like 45 other peoplethat were like therapists in the
VA system and, yeah, it wasreally a rewarding and
incredible experience.
I was one of like five veterantherapists there in the training
and you had to watch theveterans go through the
(28:39):
treatment.
We were watching videos of themgoing through the medicine and
I experienced a lot of like bothhaving my therapist hat and my
veteran hat during that, andwatching that unfold was
incredibly powerful.
So that's supposed to be legal.
The FDA just received theirfull packet from MAPS and
(29:01):
they're supposed to be decidingon that in August and that'll be
federal approval for therapy.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
So you said you loved being able to watch that.
What, what was that like what?
What did they actually gothrough?
As much detail as you canprovide I'd love to, especially
from the veteran side.
What did you witness unfold?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Have you heard of internal family systems?
It's hard to work, so I'll putit into a nutshell, but Dick
Schwartz, no bad parts is agreat book to look into on this.
But it's this idea that theself, the mind, is not a unitary
self, but rather we have kindof these different parts.
(29:47):
We have these wounded, exileparts that are carrying the
shame, the trauma, the fear, thesadness, whatever it might be.
And then we have theseprotector parts managers and
firefighters they're called, andthey have these different
strategies, these different waysthat they've learned throughout
life to protect us from those X, those wounded parts getting
(30:09):
triggered.
Maybe it's using substances toavoid or numb, or maybe it's
using video games or computer orwhatever it might be to avoid,
numb, block, run away from, shutdown, and yeah.
So MDMA helps to calm the fearresponse in the amygdala, the
(30:33):
fight or flight part of ourbrain.
It also boosts trust in selfand other.
So when you think about PTSD,moral injury and you're in
therapy, that's some really goodthings to be feeling improved
trust to go into that terrain,and it also increases empathy,
which is why I want to do itwith couples as well.
(30:54):
It's really ideal for coupleswork.
But so, yeah, you watch theseveterans as they go through and
they're able to not get stuck inthe normal defense strategies
and blocking and avoiding,because the fear response is
calmed and their trust isimproved and they're able to go
to those core wounded placeswith a shit ton of love and
(31:18):
compassion from all the oxytocinand dopamine and serotonin and
they're able to rewrite you knowwhatever stuck beliefs about
themselves or about the worldthat are maybe maladaptive
beliefs from those experiencesthat are maintaining internal
conflict or relational conflictor other challenges in their
(31:38):
life.
And so what they found is that,yeah, 70 percent of veterans
responded so favorably aftergoing through the um, their
their 12 total sessions, three,three, mdma, uh, seven, 70% are
no longer diagnosed with PTSD.
Yeah, so it's.
(31:59):
That's incredible.
Yeah, and you said 12 sessions,only three had in sessions are
eight hour long and then therest are kind of prep and
integration sessions.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Okay, and you had said earlier just because I
could hear people asking thequestion of great, so I'm just
going to take drugs, more drugsfor the rest of my life.
But you had referenced earlierthat your goal was how do I feel
this way sober?
Is that the overarching plan?
(32:30):
So, when somebody goes throughthis sort of therapy is to
achieve a state where theyaren't taking this drug any
longer well, at least to treatthemselves yeah, yeah, and it's
up to the individual to decidewhat their relationship is going
to be with that substance.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
But to be intentional about what is it?
And and yes, overall the goalhere is to not make it just
another psychotropic med that wehave to take every day for the
rest of our life or whatever tonumb or dull symptoms, but that
there's more transformativehealing going on here.
And but for some, maybe they dothree, five sessions and
(33:08):
they're done for life and theydecide that they're good.
For others, maybe they comeback in and they do one or two a
year, you know, on their own orwith a therapist.
That's that's up to them decide.
And there's a lot of factors tokind of consider there around.
Yeah, each individual'srelationship with it.
But, um, yeah, does that answer?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
yeah, for sure.
I was just very curious.
I I thought it was interestingthat you had stated that that's
what integration is really.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
You know about is mining.
From what happened during themedicine session, what came up
and what did you do in that, inthat altered state, and what did
you learn?
And how do we take thoseinsights and and those new ways
of relating to yourself andothers and how do we, how do we
find other ways to maintainthose changes into your life?
(33:59):
That's that's really key thatthe, the medicine, whether it's
psilocybin or mdma or whateverit might be, is not the magic
fix, um, but it, combined withyour inner healing intelligence,
the, the force, the wisdomwithin you that heals your
wounds, um, if you get a scratchor cut right, is always looking
(34:25):
out for you and trying to helpyou heal and evolve and to adapt
.
And so how do you take that, inaddition to the medicine and
maybe working with yourtherapist or other support
systems in your life, and figureout how to create changes in
your lifestyle and in yourrelationships to maintain
feeling better?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
so what is some common kickback that you hear
from people that might know,because I'm very interested in
this, just because I mean 70%,that's a big number.
That's not like 15%, like itworked for some people, like 70%
, that's a large number ofveterans to be no longer
diagnosable with PTSD.
(35:07):
So what is some common kickbackyou hear, or maybe cons there
or reasons that people saythey're against it.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
There was a lot of misinformation with the DARE era
and the Reagan era of the waragainst drugs that are still
definitely in our culture andshaping people's assumptions
around.
Drugs rot your brain the oldfrying the egg commercial.
Drugs rot your brain that willfry in the egg commercial.
And yeah, there was really themain contraindications.
(35:42):
The main concerns are that youdon't have any heart problems,
right, because it does elevateyour heart rate, but they didn't
have any adverse side effects.
So it's really amazing howbecause it does elevate your
heart rate but they didn't haveany adverse side effects, so
it's really amazing how healthyit is.
We still need longer-termresearch on the effects on
neurons.
There's some rat studies thatshow the potential for some
(36:10):
breakdown and some nerve endingsand I'm speaking not with a
fresh review of this and thisagain is also why we're not
trying to take this every dayand do more and more higher,
higher doses long term.
This is where it is something tohave reverence with and and to
(36:32):
moderate that makes a lot ofsense other people might have
concerns, just given theirgeneral distrust in all the
years of big pharma and themedical establishment, and then
they'll just see this as anothernew round of that.
That.
We have to kind of work withthose very wise concerns and
(36:56):
cautions and, uh, but this isvery different, you know, and
it's therapy combined with themedicine, not just throwing
another medicine.
So it's creating a whole newsystems in our, in our
government and in our medicalfield when we're combining this
interdisciplinary model into thesame practice, yeah, which
(37:17):
turns into a whole slew ofthings.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
No, that makes it makes a ton of sense.
I love, mark, just yourperception of being a veteran
and how you're able to bringthis to the table, because you
know essentially a lot ofveterans might be struggling
with being open to somethinglike this, and I love that
you've got your deployments, oryour deployment over to
Afghanistan, and just it's aconnection point that I think a
(37:42):
lot of people will listen toyour voice about it some more,
and I just think it's reallycool.
You're definitely the person tobe talking to.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Now you had said earlier about echo chambers and
we kind of get stuck in our ownlittle spot of.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah.
I'm just hearing our thing andI'm definitely connected to a
lot of awesome veteranorganizations that are doing
this work, like heroic heartproject Uh, they they bring.
I actually went with them anddid ayahuasca in Peru and they
send down vets to do that aswell as.
Uh, they have a sister projectthat just formed for spouses
(38:23):
called the hope project, um tosend spouses down um to do
psilocybin and the missionwithin is in Mexico and they do
um, I think they do five MEO,dmt and invoke, they do other
psychedelics and there's alsovets, which is veterans
exploring treatment solutions,headed by Marcus Capone, former
(38:45):
Navy seal, and his wife.
Uh, so, yeah, I'm definitelylike always in those realms and
so it just feels like there's somuch traffic around these
topics.
But yeah, that's cause I'm in,you know those circles.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
But yeah, for sure.
You mentioned ayahuasca.
I actually just talked to abuddy that just went down and
had an experience, quite theexperience about.
He was raving about it.
What were your thoughts onayahuasca?
How was that experience for you?
Speaker 1 (39:14):
man it was.
It was um, to just be in peruand be on the like we were right
off the amazon river.
So just for me, like I used towant to be a wildlife biologist
like.
So that was just like a for me,like, so happy to be around
wildlife biologist, so that wasjust like A for me, so happy to
be around all the insects andreptiles.
(39:35):
We'd swim in the river manydays and to see the dolphins in
the river go by was incredible.
But, yeah, definitely one of themost intense psychedelics on
planet earth that you know hasbeen being used for hundreds, if
(39:55):
not thousands, of years,ceremonially, um, and we are
very much altering, rightthrough consumerism and two or a
psychedelic tourism, we're verymuch altering.
That practice again changes.
The only constant so I'm nottrying to say good or bad, but
different impacts when you knowwhat was formerly a shaman
(40:16):
operating for free because ofreciprocity in a community, is
now monetized and so that bringsin all different types of, you
know, variables to thatcontainer and to what that, what
that is, um, yeah, it's muchmore.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
You want to just kind of hear and like I wonder what
questions you have, because justcurious to hear about it and I
know my buddy's story about it,um, but I think anybody
listening might benefit fromunderstanding what it what it
was like.
I don't know what yours was,but he actually went down
(41:02):
because you said with the shamanand I don't know.
I know that he paid.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
It was definitely a tourist uh adventure, without a
doubt, but it sounded like itwas more of a guided experience
I was just curious what yourswas like we did 10 days there
and we did five rounds of doing,uh, ayahuasca, so we'd have a
(41:28):
medicine day and a break day anda medicine day and a break day.
But the break days were veryaction-packed.
Uh, we would do, you know, andthis wasn't their first time do
it working with heroic heartsproject and having veterans come
through.
So they've been doing this nowfor years.
And, uh, we did things liketrauma release exercises, we did
ecstatic dance workshops andholotropic breath work.
(41:53):
Um, you know, they're feedingyou a special diet the entire
time.
That's really friendly toayahuasca because you, it is a
purgative.
So a lot of people, most people, every time they drink will,
will vomit or throw it up, whichthat in and of itself can be
therapeutic.
While you're in that alteredstate, um, and they, they really
(42:14):
view purging as a way tocleanse the body, like it's the
body's natural way to get rid oftoxins or, uh, sickness, right,
whether through either end.
Um, and so they'll have.
Yeah, I mean, I'm getting allover the place.
My mind can start just kind ofshotgunning in all these
different ways.
I want to keep, yeah, but, um,sometimes, when you're vomiting
(42:41):
and you're in that altered state, there's memories or visions or
images that are associated withwhat you're purging.
You know, maybe, what aboutyour identity or your traumas or
your pain?
You'll kind of feel it comingout of your body.
Uh, so as as as.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, it's very challenging, but also can be
beautiful, um and on the breakday did you feel as if that was
actually purged from you.
Like those, those feelings,that trauma, those thoughts, did
that actually feel as if it waspurged from you?
Speaker 1 (43:17):
I definitely did some .
You know, none of my medicineceremonies have done all the
work.
There's always different layersthat come at different times.
Um, that I was ambushed inafghanistan, um, and so I
definitely had some strongprotective parts that were
constantly operating in inlooking at, you know, in social
(43:38):
situations, looking to be reambushed, and not maybe
literally, but maybe in otherways.
Just this, this narrative ofthis part that's concerned that
others are planning something,they're all in on something that
not necessarily they're goingto try to kill me, but that
there's planning somethingthey're all in on something that
not necessarily they're goingto try to kill me, but that
there's just they're planningsomething that I'm not aware of.
Um, so I was able to do somedeep work with that protective
(44:00):
part and really appreciate howmuch it's trying to protect me
from being surprised andoverwhelmed and panicked and how
long it's been operating thatway to try to look out for me
and and to really sit with thatgratitude and um, that helped it
to really uh calm down asignificant amount.
(44:20):
Um, yeah, it's hard to, it'sreally ineffable and hard to
describe all the ways that theseexperiences uh translate and
unfold in your life.
I was recently doing psilocybinwith a group of veterans here in
(44:42):
Colorado and had always had.
You know, I had this moment offreezing during my ambush and
the freeze response, right, is acombination of of being stuck
and I don't know if I shouldfight or if I should run right.
That energy gets stuck in thebody and the nervous system and
(45:17):
that would show up for me.
You know, even like,recreationally, I would
sometimes, you know, go toparties or concerts and take
psychedelics and then I wouldhave kind of a free shutdown
response where I would just getoverwhelmed with what was
showing up in those variousprotective parts and I would
just kind of look to my wife andjust she'd know that I was
struggling and my, my way tocope with that was to just kind
(45:38):
of shut down.
And so it was really powerfulrecently to have a really strong
container where I knew, youknow, one of the facilitators,
tim Spola, good friend and afellow.
He's an army ranger and deployedto Iraq three or five times and
(45:59):
he's also a psychedelictherapist here, and so he was
yeah, we've connected prior tothis event and he's the one who
invited me to it.
So me having the knowing thathe was a facilitator was really
different in terms of shapingthat container for me to feel,
especially because he'sdisclosed some of his
experiences in his journey withmoral injury and PTSD.
(46:21):
So that allowed me to feel agreater trust in not feeling
like I need to protect or takecare of or be worried about the
people around me, need toprotect or take care of or be
worried about the people aroundme, which allowed me to move
through that freeze response andinto actually deep rage and
sadness and fear and to reallylike let it all out.
(46:41):
Um, which was really yeah, Ididn't get to experience that my
ayahuasca journey because Ididn't quite have the same trust
in the container of thefacilitators who were not
veterans.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Um, yeah, so curious sounds like it's, it's no, I'm
just a really grateful for youto share just really in depth
these experiences and kind ofwhat, what you've gone through,
because I think it's veryhelpful for people listening to
be able to understand that youknow they're not on the journey
solo, and they might be on thejourney solo, but there's other
(47:18):
people that have been on similarjourneys and I think it's just
really, really incredible thatyou're open to sharing it and
also that it takes, like you hadsaid earlier.
It's not just the one like theayahuasca wasn't just the one
time fix that there were.
It's a journey of continuing toexplore where you're at
(47:38):
personally, and so I'm justappreciating you sharing all of
that.
Thanks, yeah, well, thank youfor sharing it.
It's pretty incredible stuff.
Anybody listening right nowthat might be contemplating,
jumping in just attempting toexperiment with some
psychedelics what thoughts, whatwould you tell them?
Speaker 1 (48:01):
There's a great Netflix series and book by
Michael Pollan called how toChange your Mind.
Okay, and the Netflix serieshas like six episodes or
something like that and coversthe history and the culture and
the current research around MDMA, psilocybin, ayahuasca and, I
believe, lsd.
So that's a great way to startlearning and you'll learn about
(48:26):
things like set and setting,which are set is the mindset
that you're bringing into theexperience, based on where
you're normally at in your mindday to day, based on what you do
in prepping and coming intoyour consciousness.
You know like or how you'reshaping your consciousness.
You know before you take themedicine and then what you do
(48:49):
for the setting is well, whereare you, what's the space like
inside, outside, who's aroundyou, what's your feeling of
trust or what's yourrelationship like with the
people around you.
That's going to really shapewhat can come up and where
you're at emotionally,energetically.
So these are some of thevariables you need to start
(49:09):
considering.
I'm not at all a person who saysthat it's only therapeutic and
good and healthy if you do it ona couch with a therapist, with
headphones and eye shades.
That's one way, but it's alsobeen extremely therapeutic for
me to be at a rave and on MDMAwith really close friends and to
have just all this heartfeltsharing of what we love about
(49:31):
each other and just reallyenjoying music.
That is also therapeutic inmany ways, um.
So I'd also want to rep thefireside project.
They are providing free,anonymous, um, psychedelic harm
reduction support, so so you cancall them.
(49:51):
They're open like 20 hours outof the day or something like
that, and if you're having adifficult time and you're
wanting to talk to someone maybeyou're not trusting anyone
around you and you want to getsupport, they have therapists
who are on the phone waiting tohelp you kind of walk you
through that experience.
So that's a good resource tohave.
Help you kind of walk youthrough that experience.
(50:11):
So that's a good resource tohave.
There's also drug testing drugtesting kits that you can get
from dance safe and otherorganizations that can at least
help you to learn what's not inyour substance.
You know, especially when we'retalking about a, two CB or MDMA
, or you know the risk offentanyl and other things
(50:33):
getting in.
You want to be more cautious,for sure, about what's in or not
in your substances.
That's where psilocybin is alittle less scary.
Yeah, there's bad mushrooms outthere, but if you know it's the
right species, you're good togo.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
It seems like there's definitely some bad press
around that you always hearabout just different drugs out
that there's, you know, I guessthe news and the media throws
out if there's bad batches ofjust whatever that's killing
people, I think that that stuffis good to be aware of it and
also probably creates, I wouldimagine, a negative connotation
(51:13):
around some of these things yeah, and is that the drug?
Speaker 1 (51:16):
or is that our culture that has put a war on
drugs and we're not regulatingand making healthy versions that
are accessible for people touse, like they've been in
portugal?
You know what?
What are we really vilifyinghere?
Speaker 2 (51:30):
what have they done in Portugal?
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Oh, they decriminalized.
I don't remember when this was,but decades ago they just
learned that it wasn't workingthe war on drugs and so they
just made them regulated andaccessible and they offered
therapeutic services and theyhave seen addiction rates and
other maladaptive symptomsplummet because people are able
(51:55):
to not get stuck in the prisonpipeline and are getting other
resources connected to their useand they're getting healthy
access to and not wanting to buyit on the street or from
distrusting sources.
Because it's regulated.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Right, I think that's .
I travel around the country andusually people find out from
colorado.
Every now and again I'll getasked still, like, what's it
like to have weed legal?
Like, honestly, it's like it'snot for me and I, honestly, I
wouldn't even notice it if anymore than anywhere else I've
ever lived.
You know, I think it's sointeresting that we we made it
(52:34):
massively just available.
You know, you can walk down thestreet go buy it.
But I don't think, personally,I don't think it's really
changed anything as far as whatpeople do and don't do.
I don't think it became legaland people that were never going
to try it anyway just like,well, I gotta go do it now.
You know it didn't createpeople, just created a space
where somebody can go buy itwithout having to do so
(52:55):
illegally.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
It's interesting and we have a lot, you know, as we
go through what we call ourpsychedelic renaissance in the
west, like this is yeah, that'swhat we're going through in the
west, but psychedelics have beenused for throughout human
evolution.
Like you know, there's there'sthere's the stoned ape theory
that's thought that it might'vehad a really important role in
our brain evolution.
You know, finding fungi andwhat that led to, um, as well as
(53:20):
other cultures using itmedicinally, intentionally for
thousands of years.
So it's not a psychedelicRenaissance in the scope of
human human history, but it isin our Western paradigm, um,
human history, but it is in ourwestern paradigm and, yeah, it's
going to bring up a lot, youknow, dropping that, this
emergence into capitalism andinto, in, you know, our, our
(53:41):
culture that hasn't had thesepractices be normalized and held
by elders and be passed downintergenerationally.
It's going to create alldifferent versions and types of
how we commodify it and adapt toit or don't adapt to it.
In our education and practicesthat we really need to learn and
(54:02):
look to folks like the Mazatecin Mexico or the Shipibo shamans
in Peru and really learn andrespect and appreciate and give
back to them, because they'vebeen tending to these medicines
far longer than we have.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Very interesting you had and I'm curious to ask you
about it.
But you mentioned the stonedape theory.
Yeah, what is that?
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Oh gosh, I haven't read a a deep dive on it, but
it's that.
Look up.
Uh, paul stamets is probably.
There's probably someone elsewho's coined it, but paul
stamets definitely talks aboutit.
He's a famous mycologist.
Um, it's this idea that youknow.
There's a lot of variables thatled to the brain growing from
(54:53):
our use of fire and cooking foodand providing protection, and
how that changed our sleephabits.
I can nerd out on that, butit's thought that, additionally,
there's something about the use, you know, finding these
psychedelic mushrooms.
It was an accident, you know,and but something about that may
(55:15):
have contributed to moreprefrontal cortex expanding.
I wish I knew greater details.
Speaker 2 (55:24):
No, that makes.
That makes sense, though, likewhat you're saying.
Makes sense what?
Speaker 1 (55:29):
With sleep when we moved from sleeping more as
primates in the trees to usingfire.
What that allowed is it alloweda form of protection and warmth
for us to move from sleeping inthe trees to sleeping on the
ground.
And what that allowed is deeperstages of REM sleep, because if
you got too deep into the REMsyou might fall out of the tree
(55:51):
and break a limb or die.
So when you're sleeping on theground you can have these longer
periods of deeper REM sleep.
And REM sleep is when we gointo the dream state, and the
dream state is thought to bewhere we come up with ideas and
birth new cultures.
So you add psychedelics to thatmix.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Interesting, Wow, I had never and it makes perfect
sense, but I've not heard ofthat.
We're just and it makes againcrystal clear whether we move
from the trees to the ground,then we can actually sleep
better, which further enhancedjust evolution and growth.
So you're, I would imagine, afirm believer in getting good,
healthy sleep yeah, yeah, why doyou do you?
(56:41):
no, I'm just curious.
It's something that got broughtup earlier.
I did an interview with agentleman.
He actually just had a bookcome out, um chris free, and his
book is operator syndrome,which is this term.
He actually worked in the vafor 25 years.
I think an operator syndrome isa different um, different than
(57:05):
the mortal injury, differentthan ptsd.
But he breaks it down.
But one of the things that hetalked about pretty heavily was
sleep as well and just theimportance of it and how a lot
of times it can get disruptedwith some of these things and it
prevents us from getting thesleep that we need.
So I just like to pick people'sbrains.
I think sleep personally, Ibelieve sleep is very, very
important and I think I'm veryexcited to see this shift in
(57:29):
narrative where it used to beback to the masculinity, where I
was like, oh, I only need tosleep two hours a night.
I was like okay, great.
Like how healthy is your body?
Like what is that doing to youlong term?
Like yes, I can operate on twohours of sleep, but what is the
most effective thing?
So just anybody that piques theinterest of it or mentions it,
I just love to pick their brainlike what what thoughts do you
(57:51):
have about sleep habitscurrently?
Speaker 1 (57:54):
so my primatology professor for anthropology was
dr david samson.
Um, he's written, he I thinkhe's got another.
His recent book is our tribalfuture our tribal future but he
uh does research on sleeps sleepin primates, um, so he might be
someone that you're interestedin.
(58:14):
But yeah, when you think alsoabout being nomadic hunter,
gatherers in africa and how thissystem evolved for over 200 000
years, um, prior to modernagriculture societies, and, um,
we were going and foraging and,and then we bring back the food,
(58:38):
we eat it, we'd sleep, we'd goout and do that again, or we'd
play, or we'd connect and we'dsleep again.
Like we were sleeping a lotmore, uh, in different
especially just to cope with theheat, um, and so there was just
a lot more intermittent sleepthroughout the day, rather than
just this you know, sleep eighthours so that you can work all
(58:59):
day, kind of paradigm.
Speaker 2 (59:05):
It's very interesting .
What did you say his name was?
Dr David Sampson yeah, he'sdefinitely done a lot of
research on sleep, but yeah, I'mexcited to dive deeper into
that and another, another time,and thank you so much for
(59:27):
sharing all of this information,all of this knowledge, for for
anybody that wants to reach out,is there a good space that
somebody could reach out, pickyour brain, ask you questions is
it okay?
Speaker 1 (59:36):
yes, uh, I want to come back to one thing.
Did you?
You said you down, youdownloaded tribe.
I did yeah.
Have you already been listeningto that, or is that on your?
Speaker 2 (59:50):
list.
I didn't, it is, it's next up.
I just finished um this book.
There I'm training for a bigrun that I'm doing.
I'm doing a 40-mile race thissummer so I've been reading a
lot about ultramarathons.
So I just finished this onebook about the rise of
ultramarathons and I juststarted this other one called Do
Hard Things, which camerecommended and the Tribe is up
(01:00:14):
next.
So no, and I will get to it, Iwould say, by the end of next
week.
I'll be into it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Cool, cool.
Yeah, what made you bring it up.
You're our conversation at theveteran event about.
You're wondering arounddifferences in vet integration
and why some struggle more thanothers is wondering.
(01:00:44):
Yeah, one, go back to that yeah, absolutely, I'm glad you did.
Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
I was actually going to ask you before we closed out,
like, what have we not talkedabout that?
Uh, we should be talking about?
But yeah, for me it's.
It was something that I was Ireally spent a lot of.
For me, it was something that Iwas I really spent a lot of
time thinking about because itfelt like we had me and my unit
and a lot of my buddies.
We all went through very similarexperiences and so, after
(01:01:09):
getting out, I was wondering whydid some people struggle more
than others?
And again, I know, even thoughwe weren't, if you're right next
to each other, you're lookingthrough a different lens, which
is something I've appreciated.
What you shared earlier, evenwhen you talk about different
topics, that this is the lens Ichoose to look through this with
, and that's essentially what'shappening with everybody.
You know we all have ourfilters that we look at the
(01:01:32):
world through and correct me ifyou have contradictory thoughts
with any of this, but I wouldimagine that creates a lot of
the perception of the experiencethat we're in is the lens that
we have currently at that time,and it's just something that's
fascinated me is why is it thatsome veterans.
A lot of people go through thesame things, and some people
tend to thrive, some peoplestruggle, and so, yeah, that's
(01:01:55):
something that's always on mymind.
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
Yeah, it was something that I really
struggled with and asked myselflike why was I struggling and
beating myself up so much aboutwhen my moral injury kind of set
in in that anthropology class?
And later on like why and I Idon't know if I have a
(01:02:17):
definitive answer you know I'vewondered and explored the roots
of that of growing up with, youknow, family development and
growing up with a single motherand how that created just
challenges to feel confidentresponse to my military service
and coming from like a place ofguilt or shame.
(01:02:46):
So I wonder about people'srelationship already with what
traumas they had already intheir life and what insecurities
they already had and how thatconnects to what they did in
their time in the military andthen how that connects to then
integration.
I think about what is yourlocal culture that you're
(01:03:08):
returning to.
Are you returning to ananthropology class or are you
returning to a lot of otherpeople who are pro-war and
pro-military and and and youknow it's that same type of echo
chamber to where you're notgetting challenged as much to
kind of look at yourself andwhat you you know what you've
(01:03:29):
done in new ways and how thatunfolds in shaping our yeah, our
development so wonder to theisolation.
Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
It seems like some people get out and isolate and
instead of being exposed to allof these things, now we're just,
you know, in isolation andthere's so many things coming
out, I mean, and it's stuffwe've known about for a long
time, but just how connected weare and how much we need human
connection in our lives, andthat the isolation, even without
(01:04:06):
trauma, somebody that isolatesis going to struggle, but now
take all the trauma that led upto it and then isolate, and
that's not a great recipe.
Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
Yeah, gabriel Mate is an MD that does a lot of work
with trauma.
He's wrote the Myth of Normal.
He does a lot of work on ADHD.
He's like the worst part oftrauma is not the actual not the
actual traumatic experience,but the ongoing state of feeling
alone with your experience andnot understood and not seen you
(01:04:37):
know and not able to bring aloving witness to that, that
experience.
Curious for you that what yourresponse to integration here and
and what you think wassupportive or not supportive to
that.
Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
It's a great question , I think, for me.
Looking back in hindsight, Ithink I can see it all like this
was great and this was greatand this was.
These were these great thingsthat helped me.
Yet they weren't planned out,things like I didn't.
(01:05:20):
So I share, I share it, and butit wasn't a strategically
planned out thing.
But I got out of the military.
I followed a girl up intonorthern california and I was
supposed to go stay with her andI got enrolled in a school
there and I used to be a swimmerin high school and I swam and
you know, being a recon Marineis big time, swimming is huge.
(01:05:40):
I was like I'm going to jointhe swim team and, um, right
after the school started up, Ifound out the girl uh, and just
insert just another ticket ofgirl cheats on guy while in the
military.
And so I found out about hercheating and instantly just left
.
But I had nowhere to go.
(01:06:02):
All my family lives in NewOrleans.
So I'm like I don't think Icould be further away from my
family and friends.
And I remember swimming in theswimming pool at practice and I
told my buddy, craig, I was likedude, I need a place to live.
I don't know where I'm going.
He's like oh, corey needs aplace to live, and Corey was
this guy that he was gettingready to join, and this is the
dumb luck part of this he wasgetting ready to join the navy
and he wanted to be a navy sealand I was like, yeah, of course,
(01:06:24):
like everybody wants to be anavy seal, like whatever, but I
need a roommate.
And uh, he ended up being areally cool dude.
We became roommates and we swamon the team.
Well, he, uh, he had a greatplan because all he did was
everything he did his last yearbefore going to boot camp was he
was on a marathon running team,he was on a swim team, the
water polo team, he did one yearof prep work to go past Buds
(01:06:47):
and he did.
He went and he did go past Budsand he's a Navy SEAL he's about
to retire soon.
But all that to say that Iended up as a roommate with him.
We were the hub where everybodyfrom this junior college that
we went to came to hang out, andso I immediately got integrated
like force, integrated intojust all these really cool
people that were very openingand welcoming.
(01:07:09):
That I never had.
I never had friends like that,even before the military, and it
was just a beautiful, beautifulexperience for me to get forced
into, because I know that Iwouldn't have had that, even if
I would have stayed with thatgirl, I wouldn't have had that,
and that's where I say a lot.
It was really lucky, so thatwas really good.
I'd always wanted to get myskydiving license, which I think
(01:07:31):
I'd recommended that book toyou the Stealing Fire so I
started skydiving, which there'sa lot of studies done, and then
there's a correlation, similarbut different in that, that
sense of presence and focus thatyou talked about with mdma,
that that anytime you're in anexperience that it forces your
mind to be present, you knowthat's skydiving is one of those
(01:07:51):
like I might die right now andyou are.
There's nothing else thatyou're thinking about except
what is going on and how you'refalling to the ground and and,
and it's a fascinating thing.
Again, I didn't know thehealing that it was most likely
doing for me, um, but that was,that was excellent.
So I think that one year of mylife was pivotal for a pretty
(01:08:14):
solid transition for mepersonally, um, so, yeah, I
don't know if that does thatanswer your question with it
yeah, I mean I'm hearing theways that you you found pretty
quickly a new sense of tribe orcommunity.
Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
You know that that I'll support it to you and
that's one thing I'm hearing.
And, um, I shared some of theways that I, through the labels
of my identities, createdbarriers to feeling like I could
talk about my experience withveteran peers wilderness
retreats where we do deepreadings and hiking and we do
(01:08:51):
yoga and we have deepdiscussions and how much that
helps me, in addition to veteranwriting workshops I
participated in to help me justto kind of like seeing that
everyone can have their ways,that they will isolate or create
(01:09:13):
reasons of the not belonging ornot feeling understood, and and
to get more of that cross talkand more of that support outside
of the military with um, stillwith the veteran culture.
But being able to have justdifferent types of conversations
to to heal together is reallyso important, as you're saying
(01:09:33):
oh yeah, well, I think that'simportant, as you're saying.
Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Oh yeah, well, I think that's it's very important
.
And it's one thing you know andI look over this way because
it's you know, I got lungs peakthis 14er sitting over here and
actually I did an episode a longtime ago about it.
But you know, it's kind of likeif we went and climbed to the
top of that 14er up there, thisis a beautiful mountain and it
would be a just a wow, it wouldbe an amazing experience.
You know, some crazy stuffwould happen, like we'd run out
(01:10:01):
of water, there'd be laughs andthere'd be jokes and and we
would go up there and takepictures and then we'd come back
down and we try to tell peopleabout it and they're like oh
yeah, that's cool, but it's likeno, but this picture doesn't
like you're not as excited as Iam, because I was there like it
was crazy and you just don't getit.
And it's like, well, you can't,unless you climb to the top,
you won't know, and it doesn'tmake anybody right, wrong and
(01:10:23):
different.
And I often think of thatcomparison and that you know, as
veterans, like we climb to thetop of that mountain and it
doesn't mean it's like mountain,as if, like, that's the best
mountain, it's just to the topof the mountain.
People that weren't on thejourney.
They're not going to know whatit was like.
They can't.
It would belittle theexperience if they could know
what it was like without beingthere.
(01:10:44):
Yet I think a lot of veteransexpect people to have that they
can't.
There's no way for them to.
They won't know what it's like.
They never will.
They can empathize andappreciate, but they won't know
and appreciate, but they won'tknow.
Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
I agree and I disagree.
Okay, how so?
I love disagreements.
I agree that they have notclimbed to that mountain that
you climb to and so thus theywill never know that full depth
of that experience.
And when we hold on to that, thenarrative especially for
veterans like that maintainsthat isolation.
So how can we find parallel orsimilar bridges to like, oh,
(01:11:29):
have you had an experience ofshared suffering with others in
a team dynamic where you'rerelying on one another and
you're moving through a sharedsuck together?
Like like you've got on asports team.
You're moving through a sharedsuck together?
Like like, yeah, you've got asports team.
Or have you been, like, tryingto find ways that we can,
because we all have the sameability to feel our feelings?
Yes, maybe we haven't had thesame types of traumas or levels
(01:11:51):
of traumas, but but when we canfind language of exploring
similar ways to access thesefeeling states, that can start
to form bridges of connection,which then decreases the
othering of like us versus them,veteran versus civilian, which
means the trauma being stuck inus and not being integrated into
(01:12:14):
the community, into the culture.
Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Yep, well, and so I would say I don't think of that
so much as a disagreement asmore of a yes, and totally,
because that's to me that what Iand I love where you're at with
it.
But that's step.
Step one is like, okay, justdon't come down from the
mountain and get pissed off,cause somebody doesn't know what
it's like to climb it.
But step two is let's empathizeand find out what mountain
(01:12:41):
they've climbed, like whatmountain, okay, where.
And that's the empathy state,because there is a shared
connection that you can findwith somebody, but it's when you
expect theirs to be similar toyours.
It's just.
But any, I talk to civiliansall the time that have been
through some stuff, like man,that was tough, like what you
went through in life was tough,and and you know, I don't, I
don't know anybody that thinksthat life is easy.
Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
I got it's just tough and yeah I'll say that that's
the greatest gift of my job.
Uh, not only getting to see andwitness people's healing and
evolution, but like how much Iget to see parts of myself or my
journey through them, but withtheir wisdom and their gifts and
their, their different ways ofhealing, like I get, so spoiled
(01:13:25):
I will appear.
A friend of mine calls thereflective healing.
You know, like I'm healing withthem while they're healing and
it's just they don't know whatI'm getting out of it near as
much, but it is such a bonus ofthis work.
Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
That's really, really cool.
I love that reflective healing.
Well, I really am excited to getour daughters together and see
if we can identify whose iswhose I don't know about yours
(01:14:04):
but my daughter we always jokelike we had a new babysitter,
that we had come over, and we'relike we had to prep them.
Like she's bleeding at leastonce a day or the day's not over
.
Like she is such a hard charger, like and I mean that like she
does the most ridiculous thingswhere it's like what are you,
what are you doing?
And I mean that like she doesthe most ridiculous things where
it's like what are you, whatare you doing?
And I mean like she'll just gethurt and then she just picks up
and just runs back to redo whatjust hurt her because she wants
(01:14:26):
to go conquer it.
So yeah, she's, she's.
Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
But I'm excited.
I'm gonna say to you whatpeople say to us when I describe
that about my daughter.
They're like yeah, look at,look at you and your wife, look
at what you two read, look atwhat you guys read yeah Of
course.
Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
I'm still thinking about the apple, but yeah, well,
this was a blast that I coulddo this for yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
Thank you, mark.
I appreciate it.
If anybody does have anythoughts, questions, is there a
way they can reach out, contactyou just to just to pick your
brain about anything you'redoing or working on totally yeah
, I'm on linkedin, I'm oninstagram at adaptive therapy
llc.
Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
My website is adaptive therapy LLCcom.
My wife and I are looking topivot into doing psychedelic
couples retreats and so thatwill be called evolving lovers
psychedelic retreats, to be tobe continued, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
Very cool.
Well, I really appreciate you.
Thank you so much.
It was a blast to get to meetyou just like two weeks ago, and
this was a wonderfulconversation.
I'm looking looking forward tothe next time yeah, let's hang
out and get beers again soon.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it, mark, thank you.
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