As a former Marine Recon Scout Sniper, the invisible wounds of moral injury in veterans are a subject close to my heart. It's why I'm honored to sit down with Mary Scott from Pivotal Impact Programs, who joins us with over three decades of mental health expertise. Together, we peel back the layers of this complex issue, sharing insights and stories that reveal the emotional struggles veterans and their loved ones endure. This conversation isn't just about the depths of trauma; it's a testament to the human spirit's capacity to overcome and find hope.
The bonds we forge with others often bear the weight of our experiences, and when those experiences include combat-related trauma, the impact on personal relationships can be profound. Mary and I delve into the ways veterans carry their past into the present, sometimes with heartbreaking consequences. But we also cast light on the transformative power of love and commitment as key allies on the journey toward healing. Our discussion includes the raw truth of dealing with nightmares, the shame and anger tethered to them, and the cathartic release found within the understanding embrace of retreat programs specifically designed for veterans.
Retreats offer a sanctuary for veterans to confront their traumas and rediscover their identities, and in this episode, I recount the life-changing moments these immersive experiences can catalyze. It's not just about the individual either; the group dynamic plays a pivotal role, allowing veterans to build trust and empathy as they share their stories and struggles. From the serene setting of Copper Falls to the guided steps towards healing, we reveal how retreats can pave the way for personal growth and recovery, regardless of one's history. Join us for an unflinchingly honest look at the path to healing moral injury and reclaiming a sense of self after service.
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And why is it such an important thing for you to
discuss and unpack?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Okay.
Well, yes, it's.
It's, you know, an integralpart of my work that I have come
to be so comfortable with andso interested in that I have now
very confidently gone out on alimb and said I believe that
what the VA calls moral injury Idon't call it that and I'll get
into that in a second but whatthe VA is is calling moral
(00:25):
injury is the signature wound ofwar, that Trump's post
traumatic stress as a as verylimiting, more negative fallout
of the service experience.
They definitely can overlap incertain scenarios, but they can
also be mutually exclusivethings, and I can explain that
as well.
But I do believe that moral andethical conflicts that are so
(00:48):
oh my gosh, they're just socommonplace in military service,
including training forward,that I, over time, have realized
that many more people suffer,often lifelong, from a moral and
ethical conflict that slowlyhas eaten away at them because
they didn't have language for it.
They didn't know what theexactly what they were feeling.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
My name is Thad David .
I'm a former Marine recon scoutsniper with two deployments to
Iraq.
As a civilian, I've nowfacilitated hundreds of personal
and professional developmenttrainings across the country,
and it struck me recently thatthe same things that help
civilians will also helpveterans succeed in their new
roles as well.
Join me as we define civiliansuccess principles to inspire
(01:34):
veteran victories.
Welcome to another episode.
I'm here today with Mary Scott.
Mary Scott comes to us fromPivotal Impact Programs and she
comes to us with 34 years ofmental health expertise.
I mean 34 years of experience.
She brings a ton of knowledgeto the table.
Mary, thank you so much forjoining us.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I know you do life coaching workshops and retreats,
which I'm very excited to jumpinto.
But just stepping back, I mean34 years ago, what got you
interested into this work?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
That's a great question.
I had been in corporatebusiness for about 11 years and
I thought, no, this is not whereI want to be, and I didn't know
what I wanted to do except towork with people.
And I ended up in the projects,working in the projects for a
year and changed my whole life.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, okay, and then just stuck with it.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yep, went from the projects to grad school and got
a degree in clinical mastersocial work, and then my
practice just developed andexpanded as I learned more and
more techniques to really speedhealing in people rather than
just talking.
So it's been quite a journey.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I'm excited to unpack that and talk about it.
I know you've done a ton ofwork with veterans.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I have this is my 14th year working with veterans
specifically, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
And what does your work with veterans consist of?
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, it all started when I was invited as a
counselor down to a traumainformed care program in New
Mexico.
That is still going.
It's one of the top programs.
Boulder Crest is one bigprogram.
Another one is the one I workedfor, national Veterans Wellness
and Healing Center.
That's an angel fire.
And when I was asked I said no,I don't know anything about the
(03:24):
military, they will eat me up,no way.
And two weeks later, since I'mkind of counterphobic, I go
towards which, I fear it's justkind of a trade of mine.
I said, okay, I'll do it.
I stepped up and they promisedme training and I got there and
deer in the headlights, all ofus, no training at all.
And I stayed there for sevenyears as a counselor and later
(03:48):
program director and educationfacilitator with a co combat
veteran, co host, and it changedmy life, absolutely changed my
life, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And did you say angel fire in New Mexico?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, have you been there?
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Several times actually, I don't know, so my
wife went to high school inAngel Fire.
She's.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, so we're going to have to circle back to this.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Absolutely.
Have you been to the veteransmemorial there?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
No I didn't even know that it was there.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
It's probably one of the most beautiful memorials and
museums dedicated to Vietnam.
But then all their walkwayshave beautiful bricks dedicated
to all branches of service, allconflicts, all years.
It's a very sacred place, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
And this is in the town, it's in Angel.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Fire.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, it's up on a hill, gorgeous, the population
there is in the hundreds whenit's not in ski season.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
That's it.
Okay, that's incredible.
I'm going to have to go circleback and talk about this because
I know she's.
I mean, she lived there formany years, so I'm going to Wow
yeah, we're going to circle backto this when we're offline,
because I'm sure we know somesimilar folks.
But you said, the work that youdid there changed your life.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It did.
I keep coming back to thisexpression.
That certainly means a lot tome and that's the triumph of the
human spirit, how people whoare faced with and you're a
former service member, so youknow exactly what I'm talking
about how people can faceunbelievable circumstances and
yet triumph over them withouttheir minds shattering, you know
(05:26):
, based on what they have to door force to do, want to do
things that break their heart,and yet their mind doesn't break
.
You know, some people do youknow, suffer terribly lifelong.
But it's amazing to meconstantly that many people
triumph over circumstances thatmost of us civilians because I'm
(05:47):
not a former service memberMost civilians either wouldn't
sign up to do or couldn't do.
So I have a lot of respect forthat and to be able to serve a
program that was a seven nightis still a seven night, seven
day program where we ate withall the participants and their
spouse partners and we're withthem all day long.
(06:11):
You get to know them on a veryintimate level and really hear
their hearts.
And that's what changed my lifeto be able to sit in front of
someone hearing the most.
You know stuff you can't dreamup and you know you've been to
war.
So you understand, you can'tdream that stuff up, and
sometimes multiple things happenall on the same day that are
just mind blowing.
(06:31):
And yet the person sitting infront of me telling me that is
sounding very sane and very, youknow, self preserved and self
collected, and it's just thetriumph of the human spirit.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Did you?
Was it always people that hadbeen through combat that went to
these retreats, or was itveterans?
Just you've been veterans thathadn't been through combat.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I would say that the majority had probably were
either some active most veteransand had been in combat already
Absolutely the active duty oneswho came had been in combat and
were dealing with somethingspecific.
Or some came from a transitionbattalion like an army
transition battalion.
Some who came who had neverseen combat absolutely deserved
(07:13):
to be there, didn't think theydeserve to be there, but I can
tell you they did because theysuffered.
Even in training there areaccidents which you know.
There are accidents that happenin training all the time.
For an example one guy, vietnam,around the time of Vietnam.
He never saw a combat, he neverwas deployed, but he was
building a bomb and he was partof a factory that built the
(07:35):
bombs and he feels he didsomething wrong.
He made a grave mistake.
The bomb exploded, killed somepeople, he lived and he suffered
his whole life until he came tothat retreat and unburdened
himself, you know, was able tounpack a little of that load
(07:56):
that he had been carrying.
You know the shame and theregret.
Never had talked about itbefore.
So that's an example of someonewho didn't see combat but
certainly went through someserious trauma.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, Well, and that was.
I can't imagine that scenario,and that's one of the reasons I
asked, because I think one thingthat I've been uncovering is a
lot of veterans, even ones thatdidn't go to combat, they still
struggle, and a lot of timesit's because they didn't go to
combat.
Yes, that too, I feel like theysigned up to do quote, unquote
their job, yet they didn't getthat opportunity, which was no
(08:27):
fault of their own or no lack oftheir trying to.
It was just something that Ijust wanted to make sure that
everybody knew that that was aninclusive thing.
But that's pretty incrediblehow much of it is as you think
about it, because I've oftenheard that a lot of times it's
trauma that we've carried withus, that it kind of stacks
trauma.
You know, it's like childhoodtrauma into the military and
(08:48):
then we get more trauma and itall kind of compounds what
thoughts do you have?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
about any of that it can be it's yeah it can be, and
I say can be because I don'tthink now, years later, I don't
think that it is always becausesomeone.
Let me back up After aboutthree years at that program and
a couple hundred people under mybelt.
At that time I started noticingpatterns because when you serve
a retreat program and you dothe same sort of model each time
(09:14):
, you start to see patterns.
And one of the patterns, forexample, was by about day five
out of the seven we could see aperson who came in kind of all
hang dog, you know, head down,really not wanting to speak,
with good reason always goodreason or they might have had
multiple TBIs and they're notfeeling well and they don't want
(09:35):
to participate.
By day five we saw them over ata different you know meal table
, laughing, sitting up straight,entertaining the gang.
I mean amazing things like that, but it was always around day
five.
So, similarly, one of thepatterns as an education
facilitator that I wasstruggling with is is this is
(09:57):
what I'm experiencing with allthese different people, all
different branches, as I said,and all different ages.
There seemed to be those whohad a very serious, seriously
challenging upbringing and, yes,brought that into their service
, because you go into servicemaybe you're 18, 19, you know,
if you go way back in differentwars it was even earlier, you
(10:18):
know, before they were even 18.
But my understanding is theprefrontal cortex doesn't even
develop until we're around 23.
So we have these young, youknow, women and men going into
service at 18, 19, and all ofthis brain activity isn't fully
developed.
(10:38):
So they're taking, they'retaking in what, sorry, they're
taking in what certainlyhappened in their childhoods
with them, whether that was aloss of a parent or an alcoholic
situation, abusive situation.
They're taking that with theminto training.
But then there's a whole nothergroup that will tell you
(11:00):
themselves they felt that theirchildhoods that were possibly
tough or rough fortified themand actually served them well in
the military, because they feltlike they went in with a, with
almost like armor on already andthat they had been tried and
tested, so to speak, right.
So there's that group.
And then there's a whole nothergroup, a third group.
(11:22):
So it took me about three yearsto define this for myself
because I thought in a faultyway.
I thought, as you just said,everybody who experienced trauma
or post-traumatic stress musthave suffered in childhood.
Not true at all.
So the third group came aboutwhen I had a Vietnam veteran
(11:43):
correct me one day in the middleof education and this is what I
love about the education,because it's very interactive.
We invite people to participateconstantly and interrupt and
ask questions and share theiryou know their thoughts.
So this guy interrupted me whenI was talking about childhood
trauma and he said well, that'snot true for me at all.
(12:05):
He said let me tell you whathappened to me.
He said I got, I was drafted, Igot off a chopper or whatever
and dropped me near the DMZ andI got out and I have never seen
such horror of what.
I had never seen such horrorthat people were doing to each
other.
And it happened like right whenI got off the plane.
And he said, my worldview wasshattered in that moment.
(12:26):
So I said, well, wow, so tellme about that.
And he said well, I was raisedby my grandparents on a farm in
the Midwest.
I loved God, country, thingswere pure and sweet and I had a
few friends and I really didn'thave anything go wrong and I
felt loved, you know, in the, inthe bosom of his family.
(12:48):
And then bam, he's in Vietnamgoing.
What the hell is going on.
How can a human being being dothat to another?
And so he set me straight onthat.
He said you know, that's whenmy my trauma is that my
worldview is completelyshattered.
Yeah, so those are the three.
I think those are the threegroups those who have childhood
(13:11):
trauma, bring it forward.
Those who feel that trauma orthat difficulty fortified them,
got them prepared for combat, soto speak, and those who are
blown away by what they'reseeing because they're
unprepared for that.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
And so almost that would be.
I could see that as being avery extreme feeling to be in
that scenario Like definitelynot the childhood that I was
raised in.
However, I always felt like itfortified and got me ready for
seeing extreme stuff, right,right.
But not having seen any of that, I could see where it would be
a take some getting used to and,in some cases, not getting used
(13:52):
to, right.
So that definitely makes a lotof sense.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
That particular gentleman was having.
So this is very common and Ididn't even know that this kind
of thing existed until I went toyou know, until I served that
program, and since then it'sbeen so many more, hundreds and
hundreds of veterans who havehelped me, people like you that
(14:14):
have been my teachers.
That's why the work is sacredto me, because it's the only way
I've learned more of the deeperand more less known things
about war is from people who sitin front of me and share their
heart.
And this gentleman told me thisand I've learned that it's
(14:36):
fairly common.
Those who have been traumatizedin combat, often during their
nightmares will wake up orpartially awake and they have
hurt their pets who might havehappened to be on the bed, and
(14:56):
the gentleman tried to stranglehis dog, who he loved.
And many veterans have say thatthey have hurt their partners.
They are in a half sleep orfully asleep and they're
dreaming.
And they're dreaming about, youknow, approaching an enemy
combatant and they are grabbingtheir wife or their girlfriend
(15:19):
or whoever, and they areinjuring them.
And I heard that story over andover and I had no idea that
that was really a thing.
But yes, so this particulargentleman whose worldview was
shattered brought that into hissleep and in his half sleep
would injure his wife.
So they were there to addressthat and we worked through that.
(15:39):
So very painful stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
What was just out of curiosity and for anybody
listening that may be dealingwith a similar struggle.
What was the end result forthis individual and for his wife
that was also in the middle ofthis, supporting him through it?
What took place after thisretreat?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I think that well, during the retreat we met with
them.
All the counselors there metwith their people who were
assigned to them, which is sogreat.
You get your own counseloressentially for the whole week
at this particular program andit's a model that, if I was well
funded enough, I would like tohave as well here in Colorado,
(16:21):
so that in the afternoon youwould meet with the same
counselor every day of your fiveor seven days, whatever length
you choose to run a program.
So during the program, when Imet with this couple, what was
so important is for her tounderstand where his behavior
was coming from, because she hadno idea, and even that was
(16:41):
after working with veterans anumber of years.
It was even surprising to me,as she was his wife.
She had no idea.
She had no idea that hisbehavior was coming from.
You know, it was a traumaresponse, for sure, and she
didn't understand that.
She didn't know that.
So she was in a place in thebeginning of blame and saying
you know, you can't treat melike this in the night, you
(17:03):
can't hurt me.
Sexual assault was something wetalked about upon one occasion,
that she felt she had beenassaulted by him sexually in the
night.
That's also something fairlycommon that I hear.
So our work together over thoseseven days was opening up her
eyes to where it was coming fromin him and also working with
(17:24):
his shame, because he knewexactly where it was coming from
and he was horrified by it butdidn't really know it was
happening because he wouldn'tremember fully when he became
fully awake.
So you know, like anything,it's a matter of hearing both
sides of something and workingthrough it and accepting
accountability, even if itwasn't something you could have
(17:47):
prevented.
To be able to acceptaccountability on his part was
key and on her part, to acceptthat this was coming not from a
place of aggression but fromabsolute unconsciousness and
unhealed trauma.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Perfect sense.
I'm thinking about the strengthand courage that she would have
had to have had to continue togo through supporting that, even
in that blame state.
You know, take a lot of courageand a lot of love, which also
makes me think about, too, is Italked to people at the time.
They say they don't want to openup to their spouse.
Yet if they're already dealingwith it is like, well, they're,
(18:23):
they're committed, let's justopen up fully already, let's
talk to them a little bit more.
I don't know if that's what yourecommend, but I just think
about the situation that they'reboth in and it's there's a lot
of stuff going on after thatretreat.
Were they in a good spot?
Were they able to move pastthis?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I only you know the thing about doing this type of
work, whether you're doingindividual work, which I do a
lot as well, or whether you'redoing a workshop or retreat, you
often by, ethically you don'tmake contact with them unless
they make contact with you.
But it just so happens thatthat this particular couple were
(19:01):
known by some people, somefriends of mine, colleagues of
mine in New Mexico, and the wordwas they're doing well, they're
still together.
That's all I know.
Often I don't get to hear eventhat much.
But to your point, there needsto be a lot of love to work
through something like that,because the pain around that for
both right His pain of, oh myGod, I can't believe I've done
(19:26):
this, like the man who attackedhis dog, I can't believe I did
that.
I'm horrified by it.
I feel so much guilt and shame.
But then the anger on therecipients part, the spouses
part, so much anger and if thereisn't an ability to work
through that on both sides, theguilt and the anger it'll blow
(19:51):
them apart.
Often that kind of thing willblow a couple apart for sure,
and it has, it has, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
And I can definitely see that, and for anybody
listening that is worried aboutgetting busted apart, it seems
like, if they're still together,if you're still together with
your spouse, that that worstcase hasn't happened yet and so
there's still opportunity tohave a conversation and start
the dialogue.
Yes, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And that's what I mean by the triumph of the human
spirit, because I have seenhopeless situations where you
know the couple would come downto the program, drive you know
five hours and be fighting thewhole way.
They would tell us later oh God, we fought the whole way down
in the car.
It was terrible, we didn't wantto come to this.
He or she didn't want to come,and then it was our.
(20:37):
You know things like.
It was our last ditch effort,this was our last ditch effort.
We've been to counseling, we'vedone this, we've done that, but
we're, you know, we feelhopeless.
Those type of what I call atotal immersion model where
you're learning from it's notthe facilitator, it's not the
counselor, it's not theeducation necessarily, it's all
(21:01):
of it, but most of all it'slearning from other veterans,
learning from other couples,other people like, hey, my
circumstances are not exactlylike yours, but I'm listening to
this guy or this gal and soundsa little bit like mine and I
know I'm not alone.
It normalizes a lot of weirdstuff out there.
(21:23):
I mean what people think isweird or unique.
I should say not weird, unique,but it normalizes it.
And so they, even if they don'tshare their hearing.
So many other people in theroom say well, you know, this is
what I've been going throughand this is how my my partner
and I, or my friend, my motherand I, my father and I have
(21:44):
worked through that.
So it's a.
You know their focus becausethey're there for a number of
days, whether it's a weekend orseven, and that's the total
immersion.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
And I want to ask you some more about that.
And I love the participantcentered nature of it.
That's what I do in my mycareer.
My, my profession is a lot ofparticipant centered learning.
Just what you just what youdescribe right there.
That's the benefit of it is iswhen peers do it and they come
to a conclusion together.
It's it's much more solidifiedobviously not to the extreme
(22:17):
level that you're talking about,but anything participant
centered.
I'm 100% on board just becauseI see the value and the benefit
of it.
So that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, yeah, it's a joy to watch.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Oh, it's amazing, I can see why you love it.
And then the other thing it'sI've seen this exercise done.
I haven't done it fully, it'smore of an anonymous thing, just
to kind of air it out there andjust kind of let people know.
You know, you don't really knowwhat people have going on their
mind right now, and so you haveeverybody throw their deepest,
darkest secret into this big hatand it's all anonymously
(22:52):
written and then if the roomgets gets read out, nobody knows
who's a Zeus, because it's allanonymous.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Well, once you hear, everybody's stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
it's like, wow, the stuff that I brought to the
table where I feel so unique inmy problems.
Like usually everybody's got abattle that they're fighting
that you don't really know about, and it doesn't minimize yours,
but it just makes us.
We're all dealing with stuffright now.
Absolutely it felt similar towhat you were talking about I
think that's something, was it?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Mother Teresa said something to that effect, like
everyone's fighting some type ofbattle, you know.
So it's about trying not topass judgment, right?
I mean, I love that idea, and Ialso love the idea of throwing
things into a hat anonymously.
I have done that with groups.
Not quite like that.
I like your method better,actually.
But what I'll do is to breakthe ice in the very beginning of
(23:41):
a group or a retreat.
I will have everyone write downa thought or a fear or a hope
that they have starting the damnthing right.
Everyone has, like you know,major anxiety.
What is this going to be like?
Is this going to be freakingcorny, or is this going to be
really personal?
Do I have to say anything?
(24:03):
And so I'll read all theresponses of the hopes and the
fears, and that puts it out too,very similar.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Once you unify, we're all together, probably thinking
a lot of, you know, becausethat's the one thing that's
great about it is nobody listensto the thing.
Whatever gets read anonymously,nobody thinks judgment upon
that person.
We all, we can kind ofempathize, like oh no, I can see
that.
I kind of think that as well.
So I'm glad somebody else inthe room is thinking this too
and it's a really good, reallygood thing.
(24:35):
So you mentioned earlier that itand this might be the- answer
to the question, but I stillwant to ask because it might not
be it, but you said that ittakes about five days before
people open up, and I got thataround day five you can see them
open up.
That may be the answer, but Iwant to ask you why?
Because I know you're verypassionate about the retreat
model, where you have that longretreat model of counseling and
(24:58):
growth.
Is that the reason, and if not,what is your reason, for loving
that model so much?
So good question.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I mean again, I would love to have enough funding to
be able to have a longer retreatup here.
The only retreats I've done uphere have been long weekend up
in YMCA of the Rockies, estesPark.
And that was amazing.
No one knew me, but the VAdistributed a flyer I sent them
and they I was so grateful andthey I was so grateful for that
(25:30):
and I was overwhelmed with calls.
So it was the language maybe Iused in the flyer, I don't know,
but it spoke to people andthere was so much need.
But that was only a weekend.
So what I essentially did istake a seven day model and I
packed it into a weekend andpeople from New Mexico on my
team drove up to help me.
They didn't even want gas money.
(25:50):
I was shocked.
Yeah, I was really touched.
All veterans, veteran couplesand one vet who was a solo came
up to help from the team.
But in terms of the seven daymodel in Angel Fire, that was
supported by a million dollargrant.
So you're talking about feedingup to 25, 30 people, including
(26:11):
staff, for seven days andrunning all the activities.
So I mean we were veryfortunate to apply for a million
dollar grant from theDepartment of Behavioral Health
in New Mexico and we got it.
That supported the program.
I don't know how many retreatsthat supported, but I think it
was spent over about two orthree years.
So I don't have that luxuryhere.
(26:33):
So that's not an answer exactlyto your question about what
happens on day five.
I think that the opening up onday five was that they knew they
had seven days.
When you know you have sevendays, you have the luxury of
unpacking things slowly In aweekend, like I've been doing
(26:54):
here, or want to do more of andhave two coming up a now booked
for April 26th or 28th, just aweekend.
It's going to be more of a.
Okay, this is what we're goingto, this is what we're doing
here.
Folks, this is what you knowthe model is and I can tell you
a little bit about that in aminute.
And then it will be up to themto determine how ready they feel
(27:17):
.
They might feel pressure.
I don't know.
It's my job to help them notfeel pressure, but we get kind
of down and dirty and do soquickly, as I call it the meat
and potatoes.
We get down to the meat andpotatoes and a lot of people
come for that.
I had one veteran who served inIraq.
(27:37):
He said I want the meat andpotatoes.
I'm like, can I borrow thatexpression?
I'm using that so you know ifthey're coming for that that's
what they're going to get withme.
But also, I am there to be ableto.
I should be able to gauge thegroup.
Some groups just aren't ready.
Some groups are like yeah,we're ready, let's get down to
brass tacks right away.
(27:57):
So I don't, I can't tell youwhat it would be like to do a
seven day model up here.
I think it would be amazing,but it's a long week, so my
ideal is five days.
That's what I would like toultimately go towards.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
And you believe that a retreat model is the best.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I do.
I've said that to you, I thinkoffline, I think the retreat
model for me in my experience isworth its weight in gold.
It's not the model, it's aretreat in general.
I think anybody runningretreats for any type of group
they don't have to be servicemembers, but people who want to
(28:38):
make big strides in their life.
They want to heal something,they want to heal a relationship
, they want to feel morecomfortable around their
triggers, whatever it might be.
If you are in that totalimmersion type experience and
you're bonding with others andyou're getting reassurance from
others and you're hearing theirstories and you're feeling that
(29:01):
you're not so unique anymore,you're hearing what maybe their
spouse is doing to be able tolive more in harmony with their
partner, whatever it is, you'regoing to get so much more when
you're with other people.
It's just what communityencourages.
Down in New Mexico at thatprogram, day five was, I think,
(29:23):
those particular people we sawthe big change in.
They were settling in, I think,to a place of trust.
They felt held by the otherveterans there, the older
veterans there, a lot of OIF andOEF veterans golf on down.
Let's say they revere a lot ofVietnam veterans and that was
(29:46):
exactly what happened at theprogram.
The Vietnam veterans werealmost like the beloved uncle,
became like the beloved unclesand aunts to them.
I don't want to stress thatthese were all men, because they
weren't.
There were a lot of femaleveterans that came to our
program as well and they justbecame like these older folks
that the younger veterans lookedup to and felt held by.
(30:09):
That was a beautiful thing towatch.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I've always enjoyed.
I've had several conversationswith Vietnam veterans now and I
always think about thingsthey're dealing with.
They're just 30 years, 40 yearsahead of me and I always think
about what will be going on inmy life in 30 years.
That's similar to thingsthey're dealing with.
It's interesting, but thank youfor sharing that.
(30:35):
You had also mentioned thethree different types of people
that show up with the trauma,that they had the trauma and
they brought that forward withthem.
They had the trauma as a kidand it made them stronger, or
they never experienced it at all.
I imagine anybody listening itwould classify themselves in
(30:59):
maybe one of those three camps.
Do all three of those meetdifferent levels of retreats or
different levels of items to gethealing, or is the healing on
the other side still verysimilar?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
You know, I think, if you are a, I think if the
person hosting the retreat hasdone it enough and has a wide
enough array of topics andthemes, so to speak themes, you
will affect everyone there.
Okay, because and that's my,that's what I am responsible to
(31:34):
do.
Okay, so if I just said this isgoing to be a retreat just for
those who served in combat andexperienced, you know, severe
trauma during combat, I wouldleave out so many people that
either had trauma prior or cameback from, you know, left
service and ended up beingshattered by some family event
(31:54):
or, you know, their wife ortheir husband died way too young
, like a call I got recently.
Yeah, there, there are just somany scenarios, right, and if
you don't touch on all thosedifferent aspects of someone's
life, you'll miss helpingsomeone.
So the idea is to touch oneverything we talk about.
Oh my gosh.
(32:15):
So we talk about relationshipwith the self and triggers and
put trigger.
You know, people have peoplecall out their triggers and
stick them up on the wall, andsome people are very serious
about it.
Some people are laughing andwhat that does is end up with
the retreat with these triggersall over the walls that stay
there for the, for the time thatwe're together, and again
(32:36):
normalizes them.
We talk about sexuality and youknow what it's like to be
serving sometimes.
You know for you know just somany months on end and
pornography and the impact ofthat on intimate relationships
and you know how that's allreceived by the other person in
(32:57):
the relationship.
I mean, we talk abouteverything.
It's just an example ofsomething that used to be so
taboo, but I think it'simportant to talk about.
I remember the first time Isaid okay, so my, my co-director
here doesn't want to unpackthis, but I'm going to and we
you know the room laughs and andwe went forward and did that
and it was.
(33:17):
You know there's a lot of fuelthere.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
So I love that you, I love that you stepped into it,
because if you're asking peopleto get vulnerable, and yet at
the front of the room, if we'renot willing to be vulnerable, it
doesn't.
You know, there's a certainreciprocal relationship that
takes place there, I believe,from the front of the room to
participants.
So I love that you take itthere, you're right, there it is
.
(33:40):
And you also and you hadmentioned this in the past and
kind of in our, our callsleading up to this some terms of
a moral injury or heartbreak,and I know that's at the core of
your work and I was hopingmaybe you could define more
injury or heartbreak.
What is that and why is it suchan important thing for you to
discuss and unpack?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Okay.
Well, yes, it's.
It's, you know, an integralpart of my work that I have come
to be so comfortable with andso interested in that I have now
very confidently gone out on alimb and said I believe that
what the VA calls moral injury Idon't call it that and I'll get
into that in a second but whatthe VA is is calling moral
(34:23):
injury is a signature wound ofwar, that Trump's post-traumatic
stress as a as very limiting,more negative fallout of the
service experience.
They definitely can overlap incertain scenarios, but they can
also be mutually exclusivethings and I can explain that as
well.
But I do believe that moral andethical conflicts that are so
(34:46):
oh my gosh, they're just socommon place in military service
, including training forward,that over time have realized
that many more people suffer,often lifelong, from a moral and
ethical conflict that slowlyhas eaten away at them because
they didn't have language for it.
They didn't know what theexactly what they were feeling.
(35:10):
I don't.
I'll start here with the termmoral injury.
I want to say it was about 15years or so ago.
There were several differentbooks written about moral injury
and people had never heard theterm before it was coined, I
think originally I sent youinformation on this.
(35:32):
I don't know if it was coinedby Brett Litz, but Brett Litz
was a psychologist who began totalk about moral injury.
More Veterans who I have spokento over time hate that term.
They really hate that term orit throws them because they
which I understand the termitself throws them.
I had one guy say to me are youwhat moral injury?
(35:54):
Are you telling me that what Idid over in Vietnam, I busted my
ass in Vietnam, that I shouldfeel guilty about that, that I
have some sort of moral guiltabout that?
And I said no, that's notnecessarily what it means at all
.
So a lot of veterans don't likethat term.
They also don't like the terminjured, because what veteran
who's trained well and trainednot to be vulnerable, wants to
(36:19):
be told that they are injured?
No one wants to be told that,veteran or not, no one likes to
be called injured or disabled,and yet those terms are still
used a lot.
So I listened and I don't usethat term I use.
I differentiate between a moralconflict and a moral wound.
So you have a moral conflict.
An example I can give you is awoman who served the NSA.
(36:45):
She was a veteran.
She was hired by the NSA andshe made a bad call.
She felt on something on theheads up display that she was
watching and she made a bad calland people were very badly
injured and were killed morethan just a couple and she felt
so much guilt and shame aroundthat she felt it was entirely
(37:06):
her fault but she didn't feel.
She didn't feel she feltmorally wounded but she didn't
feel that it was that she wasdisabled by it.
She didn't feel that.
She felt that she was to blame.
She wanted to move forward in ahealthier way but was having a
lot of guilt and shame aroundthat and I'm sorry that I've
(37:26):
sort of lost my train of thought.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
It's okay.
I know you were describing moreinjury and mentioning that
people just do not enjoy thatterm, which I can.
I can understand, yeah, butalso it gets me back to I don't
know if that brings you backinto your thought.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
It brought me back to her.
You know the pain she feltaround that.
So a moral conflict would bethat she's got to make that call
.
She's looking at a heads updisplay.
She has a big decision to make.
That's the moral conflict.
Do I take these people out ornot?
Is this the enemy or am Ilooking at civilians here?
(38:06):
That was the dilemma, and shemade a call and it was not the
right one.
So that's the conflict, theheartbreak I told you.
I call I don't call moralconflict a heartbreak.
The heartbreak is the resultoften, whether it's a soul ache
or a heartbreak.
It's my opinion, after hearingI don't know now, thousands of
(38:27):
stories from all differentpeople civilians and service
members that it almost alwaysends up in a feeling of great
shame, sadness, depression,sometimes lifelong, because it
feels like I saw this, I didthis, I was forced to do this,
didn't want to do this, or I diddo it, I liked it at the time
but I regretted it later.
(38:48):
Those are all the differentways it can look.
And now I'm carrying this thingthat happened to me, that I
feel shame around.
I don't even believe that theVA has a diagnostic criteria for
it yet.
I'd have to check that, but fora long time they haven't had
any diagnosis for it.
They might say, hey, I believethat this client of mine who's
(39:11):
sitting in front of me has moralinjury, as they call it, but
there's no diagnostic criteria,to my understanding, because
it's complicated.
And the reason it's complicatedis that it can show up in
literally hundreds of differentways Something you did,
something you were forced to dosomething, you heard something,
(39:31):
for instance against the rulesof engagement and I guess that
happens a lot all the time maybebut something that you know is
wrong, but you see someone elsedo it.
Maybe you're watching a rape,maybe you're watching somebody
doing something that their NCOor whoever told them Don't you
dare do that, and they go and doit.
(39:52):
You know, whatever it can bewatching, listening, doing or,
as I think I said earlier, itcan be something that you even
enjoyed doing at the time, thatyou thought was funny.
Maybe you were, you know,having fun with a bunch of
people, you were drunk, you knowwhatever it might be, and you
thought it was a good old time.
And then, years later, you getsome perspective because you
(40:14):
have that distance and yourealize that what you all did
was quite horrible, what happensoften.
So a moral conflict can happenin the moment or it can happen
years later, and it usually is aconflict of your moral code,
your own personal sense of rightand wrong.
Whether the guy or the womannext to you has the same moral
(40:38):
code or not, it makes nodifference, because there are
people who can watch a certainevent happen and say, well, that
sucked, it's awful, but theydon't carry it, they're not
broken by it or feel like theirsoul's been ripped out.
And there are those thatcertainly do carry it, but they
hadn't had words for it and it'sbeen.
(40:58):
You know, moral and ethicalconflicts and the fallout of a
soul ache or heartbreak, as Icall it has been around since
man has been on the planet.
You know, ulysses talked aboutit in the Iliad or the Odyssey,
I can't remember, but he talksabout injuring a man, killing a
man, and then he meets the man'sfather and the man's father is
(41:20):
grieving over the loss of hisson and Ulysses starts to feel
not proud anymore of taking thatman's life as he did.
He starts to feel regretful and, in grief for the man's grief,
he starts to feel regret.
So a moral conflict can produceregret and shame, anger anger
(41:44):
at another or anger at oneselfand, like I said, it's been
around since the beginning oftime.
So when I first bumbled my waythrough this in New Mexico, it
was because my co-director andwe talk about this.
This is not a confidentialthing.
He turned to me that day and hesaid Mary, that's all you.
And I said why?
You're the veteran.
(42:05):
You went to war, Don't youthink that this is something you
should be handling?
And he said absolutely not.
I don't want to touch hissubject right now, I'm not ready
.
And then I got it and I saidsay no more, say no more.
He flew almost 250 combatmissions over Vietnam.
So I said, ok, I'll learn.
And so I asked a lot ofdifferent veterans teach me.
(42:27):
This is my understanding ofwhat it means to be witnessing
something or be part ofsomething that goes against your
own personal sense of right andwrong.
So I want to know how yourelate to this.
Did you ever experience this inyour life or in service, and
how did it look and how did itmake you think and feel, and
(42:48):
what have you done to address it, if anything?
So that's how I've learnedabout this topic.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
And what is, you know , if anybody is feeling that,
thank you for that greatdefinition of it.
And if somebody's in the middleof it, what are the solutions
to help people get on the?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
other side of it.
Well, again, I felt so lucky tohave been exposed to so many
people and hear it be expressedin so many different ways and
use the term moral injury atfirst, and then we changed it,
you know, to moral conflict.
I saw heads go down on thetable and I misread that as I'm
(43:27):
bumbling.
I don't know what I'm talkingabout.
I'm the non-veteran up here.
And then the heads came up,tears going down some of the
faces, but at the breaks peoplecoming up to me were saying I
get it.
Now.
My VA counselor said I hadpost-traumatic stress.
I never thought I had PTS or Idropped the D but I never
(43:50):
thought I had PTS.
But I knew I had something andI was struggling with something,
but I didn't.
It didn't have a name.
Now I get it.
So what I was seeing was not somuch necessarily grief, I was
seeing relief.
So the first step to answeryour question is understanding
what's going on in here and here.
(44:10):
If we don't start with that, wecan't do any sort of
interactive exercises or releasetechniques which I do a lot of
Any type of healing treatments,unless we first help that person
understand.
Well, tell me about it.
What's going on in here, how doyou relate to that concept of
(44:30):
moral and ethical conflict?
How did it look to you?
When did you first realize thatit was causing you any pain or
shame or anger or regret?
How does that show up in you?
So, after we're able to sort ofpiece that out, I explained to
them which took a while for myco-director and I to really work
(44:50):
this out I explained that oursense of morality, our moral
compass, exists in the core ofour being.
It's really in the core.
If people have a religiousbelief, if they have religious
beliefs and they believe in God,that might be for them what God
gave them, their sense of self,who they are, their core being.
(45:15):
One guy who came to the programsaid well, I don't believe in
God, I don't believe thatthere's this God-given sense of
morality.
He said to me, it's my core, mycore self and my belief system.
So all of that is in there atthe core of someone's being.
Who you are, what your valuesare, that make you the person
(45:36):
that shows up and how you showup.
So you've got this core andthen you've got your personality
, maybe on the outside of yourcore and your work or your
intimate life with your family,whatever it is.
You've got this sort of if youcan picture that sort of diagram
, but in the center resides yourmoral compass that informs all
(45:59):
your decisions and the way youfeel about your actions and
other people's actions.
So when trauma comes in, youcan picture this core, this
solid core.
When trauma comes in, itessentially blows up that sense
of surety and confidence in whoyou are, because when something
(46:22):
big happens to you, it can'thelp but change you, Can't help
but change us.
So anything that happens inchildhood or in service or
post-service or whenever it is,if it's big it's going to impact
our sense of self.
So I think his name is BillWilliam Russell, who about oh
(46:43):
God, maybe 12, 15 years ago ormore, came out with a book
called God is Not here and heserved as an interrogator in
Iraq.
He was assigned to an Iraqiintelligence officer and he
became an interrogator.
That book was just what do youcall it?
It was reviewed by somemilitary higher ups like brass
(47:05):
who said this is the kind of guywe hate.
I get it.
He came so clean with how hefelt, how he when he was
assigned to the intelligenceofficer and he had to
interrogate prisoners.
He hated it.
At first he thought I don'tthink I'm going to be able to do
this, I don't think I canhandle it.
But he grew to like it, he grewto actually take pleasure in
(47:28):
their strategies and then hehated himself for that and then
he would go home.
He was deployed a couple oftimes to Iraq but he would go
home and he talks about how hewould kiss his kids good night.
He would hold them and kissthem and read to them and he
started to realize that here'sthis guy who kind of feels like
(47:51):
some sick jerk, you know, takingpleasure in his job as an
interrogator not pridenecessarily, but just really
liking the work and doing itvery well, and then going home
and being tender with his wifeand reading to his kids.
And he described it so well asfeeling like he's two or maybe
(48:14):
even three different people.
So he ends up in a psych ward.
Post war he was so confused hefelt about who he really was
because he felt like he lost hisMoral compass.
The trauma of what he did andyou know all that went on for
him before he left service wasso intense that the confusion
(48:36):
came in of who am I now?
Who am I now that I did this?
Does it make me a good personor bad person?
Am I the guy that kisses herkids and loves his wife and
family?
Or am I that sick guy who tookpleasure in what I did For the
military?
It was, it's a great book andit never got the attention it
(49:00):
deserved, but I found itfascinating and I almost I feel
like I want to call him sometimeand see if I can get him to
come to Colorado and speak.
I wonder how he's doing so.
He was doing very well when hewrote the book, after, you know,
ending up in a psych ward.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
He wrote it after being in a psych ward yeah is he
a dress kind of?
I mean, I love the using theterm.
The moral compass was Wasshaken.
Yeah, towards the end of it washe able to feel like he got his
moral compass back on track andif, was that the solution that
he needed?
Speaker 2 (49:34):
I think so.
He.
I mean I'm now you're tappingmy long term memory here, but I
think he talks about exerciseshe did like putting the enemy in
a chair In his room and makinga daily habit of speaking to the
enemy and having some sort ofreconciliation conversations
(49:55):
imaginary obviously that werereally therapeutic for him, I
think really helped him a lot.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Was.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
I'm sorry no, that's it.
That's all I remember about oneof the things he did if you
don't mind, because I did notread it.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
so what was the name of the book?
Speaker 2 (50:09):
God is not here okay captain William or captain Bill
Russell.
He lives in California or helived in California when he
wrote the book.
I don't know where he's now.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yeah so you mentioned Earlier and thank you for
sharing that that a lot ofpeople don't have the language
or don't know how to define kindof what they're feeling.
Which I know is a brown has abunch of stuff out that I love
her, she's great, how she'sfantastic, but she talks about
how it's impossible to actuallyfeel and understand the feeling
that you can't define.
(50:39):
And that brought me back to youstating that you know having
the language, so what you have,that you said you have some
really exercises that you Reallyenjoy doing.
Once you kind of get to thatpoint and just really curious
ask what is your favorite theseexercise that you do with people
, just for anybody listening,what's your favorite thing to do
(51:00):
?
Speaker 2 (51:01):
in the case of dealing with someone who's who's
challenged by a moral, a moralepisode, a conflict that ended
up just destroying their, whatwould it be in the case of deep
moral conflicts?
This sense of shame can be sogreat that it destroys their
belief in themselves, sometimesto the point of spatially I've
(51:25):
read an article about thisspatially the person becomes
even just you know, completelydisoriented.
And when I read that I didn'tunderstand it and I began to
piece things together over years.
And it seems that whensomeone's moral compass is so
rocked or literally feels likeit's been ripped out of their
body, their soul has been rippedout of their body.
(51:46):
That's been described a lot bysome in combat that they become
disoriented.
And I thought, well, why?
And I think it's because theydon't know really who they are
anymore.
If you don't have the anchor ofa moral compass to inform you
inform how you deal with whatyou've just had to do if you
(52:10):
lose that somehow, you literallycan lose your sense of identity
and therefore, as this articlesaid, in extreme cases even your
spatial compass, where you arein space, your proprioception, I
think, is the word.
I didn't believe that until Imet this guy who called himself
(52:32):
mad dog and he's an incrediblehuman being and has.
He's had a rough road and he'sdoing quite well now.
But he had a rough time.
He's a Vietnam veteran and hetalks about how he ended up
going beyond the wire withouthis weapon.
He became so apathetic, hedidn't care about anything
anymore.
He had seen too much During thewar and he started, you know,
(52:56):
just leaving his weapon behindlike just kill me now kind of a
feeling.
When he got out he was reallysuffering and he ended up
feeling completely disoriented.
And when he said that myantenna went up and I said, what
do you mean?
And he said, mary, I didn'teven know where I was in space.
He went up and lived homeless.
(53:17):
He became homeless and went upand lived in the mountains and
he was up there alone for aboutthree years Just trying to get
his bearings, literally get hisbearings again.
But he didn't have the language, he didn't know what he was
dealing with, he just knew thathe was Very disoriented because
too much had happened to him.
So the way that we worked withhim and he actually was my
(53:38):
client, so I, you know, I feelvery close to him and very
respectful of everything.
You know all the pain that hewent through.
He needed to understand what Ifelt we were looking at, and for
him it was a lot about morality, because he was raised with A
beautiful moral compass and hefelt it was just shattered
because of all he saw and partpart took in all the stuff he
(54:02):
had taken part in.
And so we talked about well,who are you now, who do you want
to be now?
So part of the my exercisesaround this are really helping
the person understand whatthey've been through, who they
think they were in that time,who they want to be now or think
that they are now, and where,what kind of person do they
really want to be?
(54:23):
Let's map out your morals.
Let's map out your, your values.
Let's look at a series ofarchetypes.
So, at the program I used towork for, we had a whole list of
archetypes, like loser, fuck up, hero, you know whatever, might
have spoken to people.
We kind of made him up or wetook him out of a book partially
(54:45):
and we had a list of about youknow, I don't know 50 archetypes
and we said, okay, we'd likeyou to check out this list.
Which ones do you resonate withthe most?
Do you feel like you're a hero?
Do you feel like you're a giver?
Do you feel like you're a youknow a brainiac?
Are you a killer?
You know whatever, what?
Who are you?
And we had them check as manyas applied and then we worked
(55:09):
with them around that.
So that's a great exercise, issomething we developed.
And in terms of releasetechniques, you know when you're
working with this stuff thepeople are often re experiencing
and you don't want them to reexperience to the point of
extreme intensity.
You want to keep it you know,boundary as best as possible
while helping them tap into someof those feelings.
(55:30):
So the techniques that I'mcertified in are some of the
tapping you've probably heardabout emotional freedom
technique.
I'm certified in that, which Idon't use as much anymore.
I use what's called a lesserknown technique called T A T
tapas, acupressure technique,where the person is holding the
(55:50):
back of their head.
You know, near that, your oxyput the base of the skull and
your thumb and ring finger onthe bridge of your nose and one
or two fingers lightly on thecenter of your forehead, which
is your prefrontal cortex area,and you're essentially trying to
.
It's kind of obscure, butyou're trying to hook up your
(56:14):
amygdala.
That part of the brain is likea filing cabinet of all those
triggers and sights and soundsand smells, memories.
You're trying to essentiallyhook that up to your executive
reasoning functions of the brainup here.
Because when we get triggeredwhether we're, you know, talking
about our past experiences arein the moment when we get
(56:37):
triggered what usually happensis there's no gap for us to
think logically about a reaction, we just react.
Right, it's a hair trigger.
I think that's where the wordtrigger comes from hair trigger.
So the prefrontal cortex, thosereasoning functions get
hijacked by the amygdala.
The amygdala just hijacks it.
So we don't have time to reason, we just feel or think or move
(57:03):
as a trauma response in reactionto that trigger.
And you know I've heard I lovetrigger work because, especially
with groups, because, as I said, I love to have everyone call
them out.
You know the smell of coffeeshoppers in the in the sky.
You know that pop up, up, up,up up, the smell of Blood
(57:24):
fireworks.
You know things that people seeor things that people do, or
the ticking of a fan.
There are millions, you know,and they're all so unique to the
individual so to have them upon the wall, like I said, really
normalizes things.
So that's an exercise I woulddo individually with someone as
well.
My protocol, though, is mainlydrilling down on identity.
(57:47):
Who am I now?
Do I feel like I'm?
Two different people are threedifferent people, like Russell,
for example, said.
Do I want to be different?
Is there anything I can changeabout the past?
Is there any one I need toaddress?
Is there anything I need toaddress with that person that is
on, spoken, on said, if they'realive and if they're not, how
(58:09):
do I reconcile that?
Who am I now?
If I don't do that, if I justkind of push it under the rug
and let it go home, I now is it.
Am I gonna hold this bag ofcrap?
You know that the the shame orthe regret, am I gonna hold that
forever?
Or am I gonna, you know, man up, woman up and go do something
(58:30):
about it?
Speaker 1 (58:31):
So we work through identity and get very clear who
they feel like they are and whothey want to be, and working,
you know, setting goals aroundthat so finding out who they
feel they are now, who they wantto be, and then setting goals,
working towards that Mm-hmm,that identity that we want to
associate with yes, exactly Huh.
(58:52):
I said I just I like that levelof thinking a lot and then, you
know, part of that work isimage replacement.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
I call it, it's my term.
There are things out there soyou know there are so many great
things out there now forveterans to experiment with, to
reduce some of the more painfulmemories, you know, lessen them
or or transform them intosomething more positive.
There are a lot of techniquesout there, but one of the basic
(59:19):
things I love is met guidedmeditation, and I do it with big
groups so you'll have everyonedoing it at once and, for
example, I will have themImagine walking through the
woods and the different thingsin the visualization represent
different things in life.
And I won't tell them that tothe end.
This is based on a meditationby my mentor, who's no longer
(59:40):
with us, but she designed a walkin the woods meditation and
people love it because what?
What you're doing with them isHaving them walk a path through
the woods, seeing a certain cup,what that represents to them,
asking them what that mightRepresent, what they do with the
cup.
Did they touch it?
Does it change?
(01:00:01):
Coming across a body of water,coming across a house, a
Structure, you don't tell themwhat it is.
You see what shows up for them.
So a lot of the guys who arecoming in when oh gosh, this was
around, there's a lot of IraqCombat veterans who joined our
program I think it was withinabout three years of the surge
(01:00:23):
and they were during thismeditation.
They were seeing nothing butburned out shacks.
They said I can't, you know, Ican't see anything positive.
I see link, you know, just dryterrain and burned out shacks,
and they were getting verytriggered by it.
So then I would redo themeditation and put in Positive
imagery or I would suggestchanging.
(01:00:46):
You know, work with this asbest you can.
You're seeing a burned outshack.
Change it into a cabin or somesome type of structure You've
always wanted to own.
What would that be?
Would it be modern?
Would it be a cabin?
Start to build it, start tochange your imagery.
So I call that imagereplacement and it's highly
effective.
And you repeat it and repeat it, and repeat it until they're
(01:01:08):
able to see some reallybeautiful things in that
Meditation.
Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
For example, I love that exercise.
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you takingsome time and so well Sharing
all of this wonderful, wonderfulinformation.
Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Well, thank you and thanks for your service, dad.
I'd like to hear more aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
I'm looking forward to several great conversations.
We're just for anybodyinterested.
I know you mentioned you have aretreat coming up.
Yeah, where can somebody thatwanted to learn more or speak
with you or just learn moreabout what you're doing?
Where should they?
Where should they go to get intouch with you?
Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Well, people are always welcome to call me.
My number is not all impactprograms.
That the retreat very excitingto me because it's been too long
with COVID in there.
It's been too long since I didany group stuff and I'm really
itching to get back to it.
That will be in West Lovelandat a place that is actually
owned by two veterans, or aveteran couple a guardsman and a
(01:02:04):
former senior master sergeanthis, his spouse, is a former
senior master sergeant.
So they're a great couple andthey own what's called copper
falls.
Copper falls wedding and eventcenter.
It's a small, completelyprivate place.
There's no other people who aregoing to be there and they have
a beautiful waterfall and youknow, lovely manicured grounds,
(01:02:27):
a little stream, wildlifewalking above the cliff.
And that will be April 26ththrough 28th for anybody who,
any veteran who is either activeor Now a veteran, with their
spouse, partner, support person,that's who it's for so.
(01:02:50):
I really look forward to that.
Yeah, it'll be a very dynamic,interactive retreat.
Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
No doubt just speaking and then hearing All of
the things that you're doing, Iknow that's going to be a huge
success.
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Thank you for the time.
I really appreciate theopportunity that absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
I'm looking forward to the next one.
I.
And why is it such an important thing for you to
discuss and unpack?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Okay.
Well, yes, it's.
It's, you know, an integralpart of my work that I have come
to be so comfortable with andso interested in that I have now
very confidently gone out on alimb and said I believe that
what the VA calls moral injury Idon't call it that and I'll get
into that in a second but whatthe VA is is calling moral
(00:25):
injury is the signature wound ofwar, that Trump's post
traumatic stress as a as verylimiting, more negative fallout
of the service experience.
They definitely can overlap incertain scenarios, but they can
also be mutually exclusivethings, and I can explain that
as well.
But I do believe that moral andethical conflicts that are so
(00:48):
oh my gosh, they're just socommonplace in military service,
including training forward,that I, over time, have realized
that many more people suffer,often lifelong, from a moral and
ethical conflict that slowlyhas eaten away at them because
they didn't have language for it.
They didn't know what theexactly what they were feeling.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
My name is Thad David .
I'm a former Marine recon scoutsniper with two deployments to
Iraq.
As a civilian, I've nowfacilitated hundreds of personal
and professional developmenttrainings across the country,
and it struck me recently thatthe same things that help
civilians will also helpveterans succeed in their new
roles as well.
Join me as we define civiliansuccess principles to inspire
(01:34):
veteran victories.
Welcome to another episode.
I'm here today with Mary Scott.
Mary Scott comes to us fromPivotal Impact Programs and she
comes to us with 34 years ofmental health expertise.
I mean 34 years of experience.
She brings a ton of knowledgeto the table.
Mary, thank you so much forjoining us.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I know you do life coaching workshops and retreats,
which I'm very excited to jumpinto.
But just stepping back, I mean34 years ago, what got you
interested into this work?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
That's a great question.
I had been in corporatebusiness for about 11 years and
I thought, no, this is not whereI want to be, and I didn't know
what I wanted to do except towork with people.
And I ended up in the projects,working in the projects for a
year and changed my whole life.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, okay, and then just stuck with it.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yep, went from the projects to grad school and got
a degree in clinical mastersocial work, and then my
practice just developed andexpanded as I learned more and
more techniques to really speedhealing in people rather than
just talking.
So it's been quite a journey.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I'm excited to unpack that and talk about it.
I know you've done a ton ofwork with veterans.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I have this is my 14th year working with veterans
specifically, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
And what does your work with veterans consist of?
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, it all started when I was invited as a
counselor down to a traumainformed care program in New
Mexico.
That is still going.
It's one of the top programs.
Boulder Crest is one bigprogram.
Another one is the one I workedfor, national Veterans Wellness
and Healing Center.
That's an angel fire.
And when I was asked I said no,I don't know anything about the
(03:24):
military, they will eat me up,no way.
And two weeks later, since I'mkind of counterphobic, I go
towards which, I fear it's justkind of a trade of mine.
I said, okay, I'll do it.
I stepped up and they promisedme training and I got there and
deer in the headlights, all ofus, no training at all.
And I stayed there for sevenyears as a counselor and later
(03:48):
program director and educationfacilitator with a co combat
veteran, co host, and it changedmy life, absolutely changed my
life, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And did you say angel fire in New Mexico?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, have you been there?
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Several times actually, I don't know, so my
wife went to high school inAngel Fire.
She's.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, so we're going to have to circle back to this.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Absolutely.
Have you been to the veteransmemorial there?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
No I didn't even know that it was there.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
It's probably one of the most beautiful memorials and
museums dedicated to Vietnam.
But then all their walkwayshave beautiful bricks dedicated
to all branches of service, allconflicts, all years.
It's a very sacred place, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
And this is in the town, it's in Angel.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Fire.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, it's up on a hill, gorgeous, the population
there is in the hundreds whenit's not in ski season.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
That's it.
Okay, that's incredible.
I'm going to have to go circleback and talk about this because
I know she's.
I mean, she lived there formany years, so I'm going to Wow
yeah, we're going to circle backto this when we're offline,
because I'm sure we know somesimilar folks.
But you said, the work that youdid there changed your life.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It did.
I keep coming back to thisexpression.
That certainly means a lot tome and that's the triumph of the
human spirit, how people whoare faced with and you're a
former service member, so youknow exactly what I'm talking
about how people can faceunbelievable circumstances and
yet triumph over them withouttheir minds shattering, you know
(05:26):
, based on what they have to door force to do, want to do
things that break their heart,and yet their mind doesn't break
.
You know, some people do youknow, suffer terribly lifelong.
But it's amazing to meconstantly that many people
triumph over circumstances thatmost of us civilians because I'm
(05:47):
not a former service memberMost civilians either wouldn't
sign up to do or couldn't do.
So I have a lot of respect forthat and to be able to serve a
program that was a seven nightis still a seven night, seven
day program where we ate withall the participants and their
spouse partners and we're withthem all day long.
(06:11):
You get to know them on a veryintimate level and really hear
their hearts.
And that's what changed my lifeto be able to sit in front of
someone hearing the most.
You know stuff you can't dreamup and you know you've been to
war.
So you understand, you can'tdream that stuff up, and
sometimes multiple things happenall on the same day that are
just mind blowing.
(06:31):
And yet the person sitting infront of me telling me that is
sounding very sane and very, youknow, self preserved and self
collected, and it's just thetriumph of the human spirit.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Did you?
Was it always people that hadbeen through combat that went to
these retreats, or was itveterans?
Just you've been veterans thathadn't been through combat.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I would say that the majority had probably were
either some active most veteransand had been in combat already
Absolutely the active duty oneswho came had been in combat and
were dealing with somethingspecific.
Or some came from a transitionbattalion like an army
transition battalion.
Some who came who had neverseen combat absolutely deserved
(07:13):
to be there, didn't think theydeserve to be there, but I can
tell you they did because theysuffered.
Even in training there areaccidents which you know.
There are accidents that happenin training all the time.
For an example one guy, vietnam,around the time of Vietnam.
He never saw a combat, he neverwas deployed, but he was
building a bomb and he was partof a factory that built the
(07:35):
bombs and he feels he didsomething wrong.
He made a grave mistake.
The bomb exploded, killed somepeople, he lived and he suffered
his whole life until he came tothat retreat and unburdened
himself, you know, was able tounpack a little of that load
(07:56):
that he had been carrying.
You know the shame and theregret.
Never had talked about itbefore.
So that's an example of someonewho didn't see combat but
certainly went through someserious trauma.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, Well, and that was.
I can't imagine that scenario,and that's one of the reasons I
asked, because I think one thingthat I've been uncovering is a
lot of veterans, even ones thatdidn't go to combat, they still
struggle, and a lot of timesit's because they didn't go to
combat.
Yes, that too, I feel like theysigned up to do quote, unquote
their job, yet they didn't getthat opportunity, which was no
(08:27):
fault of their own or no lack oftheir trying to.
It was just something that Ijust wanted to make sure that
everybody knew that that was aninclusive thing.
But that's pretty incrediblehow much of it is as you think
about it, because I've oftenheard that a lot of times it's
trauma that we've carried withus, that it kind of stacks
trauma.
You know, it's like childhoodtrauma into the military and
(08:48):
then we get more trauma and itall kind of compounds what
thoughts do you have?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
about any of that it can be it's yeah it can be, and
I say can be because I don'tthink now, years later, I don't
think that it is always becausesomeone.
Let me back up After aboutthree years at that program and
a couple hundred people under mybelt.
At that time I started noticingpatterns because when you serve
a retreat program and you dothe same sort of model each time
(09:14):
, you start to see patterns.
And one of the patterns, forexample, was by about day five
out of the seven we could see aperson who came in kind of all
hang dog, you know, head down,really not wanting to speak,
with good reason always goodreason or they might have had
multiple TBIs and they're notfeeling well and they don't want
(09:35):
to participate.
By day five we saw them over ata different you know meal table
, laughing, sitting up straight,entertaining the gang.
I mean amazing things like that, but it was always around day
five.
So, similarly, one of thepatterns as an education
facilitator that I wasstruggling with is is this is
(09:57):
what I'm experiencing with allthese different people, all
different branches, as I said,and all different ages.
There seemed to be those whohad a very serious, seriously
challenging upbringing and, yes,brought that into their service
, because you go into servicemaybe you're 18, 19, you know,
if you go way back in differentwars it was even earlier, you
(10:18):
know, before they were even 18.
But my understanding is theprefrontal cortex doesn't even
develop until we're around 23.
So we have these young, youknow, women and men going into
service at 18, 19, and all ofthis brain activity isn't fully
developed.
(10:38):
So they're taking, they'retaking in what, sorry, they're
taking in what certainlyhappened in their childhoods
with them, whether that was aloss of a parent or an alcoholic
situation, abusive situation.
They're taking that with theminto training.
But then there's a whole nothergroup that will tell you
(11:00):
themselves they felt that theirchildhoods that were possibly
tough or rough fortified themand actually served them well in
the military, because they feltlike they went in with a, with
almost like armor on already andthat they had been tried and
tested, so to speak, right.
So there's that group.
And then there's a whole nothergroup, a third group.
(11:22):
So it took me about three yearsto define this for myself
because I thought in a faultyway.
I thought, as you just said,everybody who experienced trauma
or post-traumatic stress musthave suffered in childhood.
Not true at all.
So the third group came aboutwhen I had a Vietnam veteran
(11:43):
correct me one day in the middleof education and this is what I
love about the education,because it's very interactive.
We invite people to participateconstantly and interrupt and
ask questions and share theiryou know their thoughts.
So this guy interrupted me whenI was talking about childhood
trauma and he said well, that'snot true for me at all.
(12:05):
He said let me tell you whathappened to me.
He said I got, I was drafted, Igot off a chopper or whatever
and dropped me near the DMZ andI got out and I have never seen
such horror of what.
I had never seen such horrorthat people were doing to each
other.
And it happened like right whenI got off the plane.
And he said, my worldview wasshattered in that moment.
(12:26):
So I said, well, wow, so tellme about that.
And he said well, I was raisedby my grandparents on a farm in
the Midwest.
I loved God, country, thingswere pure and sweet and I had a
few friends and I really didn'thave anything go wrong and I
felt loved, you know, in the, inthe bosom of his family.
(12:48):
And then bam, he's in Vietnamgoing.
What the hell is going on.
How can a human being being dothat to another?
And so he set me straight onthat.
He said you know, that's whenmy my trauma is that my
worldview is completelyshattered.
Yeah, so those are the three.
I think those are the threegroups those who have childhood
(13:11):
trauma, bring it forward.
Those who feel that trauma orthat difficulty fortified them,
got them prepared for combat, soto speak, and those who are
blown away by what they'reseeing because they're
unprepared for that.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
And so almost that would be.
I could see that as being avery extreme feeling to be in
that scenario Like definitelynot the childhood that I was
raised in.
However, I always felt like itfortified and got me ready for
seeing extreme stuff, right,right.
But not having seen any of that, I could see where it would be
a take some getting used to and,in some cases, not getting used
(13:52):
to, right.
So that definitely makes a lotof sense.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
That particular gentleman was having.
So this is very common and Ididn't even know that this kind
of thing existed until I went toyou know, until I served that
program, and since then it'sbeen so many more, hundreds and
hundreds of veterans who havehelped me, people like you that
(14:14):
have been my teachers.
That's why the work is sacredto me, because it's the only way
I've learned more of the deeperand more less known things
about war is from people who sitin front of me and share their
heart.
And this gentleman told me thisand I've learned that it's
(14:36):
fairly common.
Those who have been traumatizedin combat, often during their
nightmares will wake up orpartially awake and they have
hurt their pets who might havehappened to be on the bed, and
(14:56):
the gentleman tried to stranglehis dog, who he loved.
And many veterans have say thatthey have hurt their partners.
They are in a half sleep orfully asleep and they're
dreaming.
And they're dreaming about, youknow, approaching an enemy
combatant and they are grabbingtheir wife or their girlfriend
(15:19):
or whoever, and they areinjuring them.
And I heard that story over andover and I had no idea that
that was really a thing.
But yes, so this particulargentleman whose worldview was
shattered brought that into hissleep and in his half sleep
would injure his wife.
So they were there to addressthat and we worked through that.
(15:39):
So very painful stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
What was just out of curiosity and for anybody
listening that may be dealingwith a similar struggle.
What was the end result forthis individual and for his wife
that was also in the middle ofthis, supporting him through it?
What took place after thisretreat?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I think that well, during the retreat we met with
them.
All the counselors there metwith their people who were
assigned to them, which is sogreat.
You get your own counseloressentially for the whole week
at this particular program andit's a model that, if I was well
funded enough, I would like tohave as well here in Colorado,
(16:21):
so that in the afternoon youwould meet with the same
counselor every day of your fiveor seven days, whatever length
you choose to run a program.
So during the program, when Imet with this couple, what was
so important is for her tounderstand where his behavior
was coming from, because she hadno idea, and even that was
(16:41):
after working with veterans anumber of years.
It was even surprising to me,as she was his wife.
She had no idea.
She had no idea that hisbehavior was coming from.
You know, it was a traumaresponse, for sure, and she
didn't understand that.
She didn't know that.
So she was in a place in thebeginning of blame and saying
you know, you can't treat melike this in the night, you
(17:03):
can't hurt me.
Sexual assault was something wetalked about upon one occasion,
that she felt she had beenassaulted by him sexually in the
night.
That's also something fairlycommon that I hear.
So our work together over thoseseven days was opening up her
eyes to where it was coming fromin him and also working with
(17:24):
his shame, because he knewexactly where it was coming from
and he was horrified by it butdidn't really know it was
happening because he wouldn'tremember fully when he became
fully awake.
So you know, like anything,it's a matter of hearing both
sides of something and workingthrough it and accepting
accountability, even if itwasn't something you could have
(17:47):
prevented.
To be able to acceptaccountability on his part was
key and on her part, to acceptthat this was coming not from a
place of aggression but fromabsolute unconsciousness and
unhealed trauma.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Perfect sense.
I'm thinking about the strengthand courage that she would have
had to have had to continue togo through supporting that, even
in that blame state.
You know, take a lot of courageand a lot of love, which also
makes me think about, too, is Italked to people at the time.
They say they don't want to openup to their spouse.
Yet if they're already dealingwith it is like, well, they're,
(18:23):
they're committed, let's justopen up fully already, let's
talk to them a little bit more.
I don't know if that's what yourecommend, but I just think
about the situation that they'reboth in and it's there's a lot
of stuff going on after thatretreat.
Were they in a good spot?
Were they able to move pastthis?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I only you know the thing about doing this type of
work, whether you're doingindividual work, which I do a
lot as well, or whether you'redoing a workshop or retreat, you
often by, ethically you don'tmake contact with them unless
they make contact with you.
But it just so happens thatthat this particular couple were
(19:01):
known by some people, somefriends of mine, colleagues of
mine in New Mexico, and the wordwas they're doing well, they're
still together.
That's all I know.
Often I don't get to hear eventhat much.
But to your point, there needsto be a lot of love to work
through something like that,because the pain around that for
both right His pain of, oh myGod, I can't believe I've done
(19:26):
this, like the man who attackedhis dog, I can't believe I did
that.
I'm horrified by it.
I feel so much guilt and shame.
But then the anger on therecipients part, the spouses
part, so much anger and if thereisn't an ability to work
through that on both sides, theguilt and the anger it'll blow
(19:51):
them apart.
Often that kind of thing willblow a couple apart for sure,
and it has, it has, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
And I can definitely see that, and for anybody
listening that is worried aboutgetting busted apart, it seems
like, if they're still together,if you're still together with
your spouse, that that worstcase hasn't happened yet and so
there's still opportunity tohave a conversation and start
the dialogue.
Yes, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And that's what I mean by the triumph of the human
spirit, because I have seenhopeless situations where you
know the couple would come downto the program, drive you know
five hours and be fighting thewhole way.
They would tell us later oh God, we fought the whole way down
in the car.
It was terrible, we didn't wantto come to this.
He or she didn't want to come,and then it was our.
(20:37):
You know things like.
It was our last ditch effort,this was our last ditch effort.
We've been to counseling, we'vedone this, we've done that, but
we're, you know, we feelhopeless.
Those type of what I call atotal immersion model where
you're learning from it's notthe facilitator, it's not the
counselor, it's not theeducation necessarily, it's all
(21:01):
of it, but most of all it'slearning from other veterans,
learning from other couples,other people like, hey, my
circumstances are not exactlylike yours, but I'm listening to
this guy or this gal and soundsa little bit like mine and I
know I'm not alone.
It normalizes a lot of weirdstuff out there.
(21:23):
I mean what people think isweird or unique.
I should say not weird, unique,but it normalizes it.
And so they, even if they don'tshare their hearing.
So many other people in theroom say well, you know, this is
what I've been going throughand this is how my my partner
and I, or my friend, my motherand I, my father and I have
(21:44):
worked through that.
So it's a.
You know their focus becausethey're there for a number of
days, whether it's a weekend orseven, and that's the total
immersion.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
And I want to ask you some more about that.
And I love the participantcentered nature of it.
That's what I do in my mycareer.
My, my profession is a lot ofparticipant centered learning.
Just what you just what youdescribe right there.
That's the benefit of it is iswhen peers do it and they come
to a conclusion together.
It's it's much more solidifiedobviously not to the extreme
(22:17):
level that you're talking about,but anything participant
centered.
I'm 100% on board just becauseI see the value and the benefit
of it.
So that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, yeah, it's a joy to watch.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Oh, it's amazing, I can see why you love it.
And then the other thing it'sI've seen this exercise done.
I haven't done it fully, it'smore of an anonymous thing, just
to kind of air it out there andjust kind of let people know.
You know, you don't really knowwhat people have going on their
mind right now, and so you haveeverybody throw their deepest,
darkest secret into this big hatand it's all anonymously
(22:52):
written and then if the roomgets gets read out, nobody knows
who's a Zeus, because it's allanonymous.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Well, once you hear, everybody's stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
it's like, wow, the stuff that I brought to the
table where I feel so unique inmy problems.
Like usually everybody's got abattle that they're fighting
that you don't really know about, and it doesn't minimize yours,
but it just makes us.
We're all dealing with stuffright now.
Absolutely it felt similar towhat you were talking about I
think that's something, was it?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Mother Teresa said something to that effect, like
everyone's fighting some type ofbattle, you know.
So it's about trying not topass judgment, right?
I mean, I love that idea, and Ialso love the idea of throwing
things into a hat anonymously.
I have done that with groups.
Not quite like that.
I like your method better,actually.
But what I'll do is to breakthe ice in the very beginning of
(23:41):
a group or a retreat.
I will have everyone write downa thought or a fear or a hope
that they have starting the damnthing right.
Everyone has, like you know,major anxiety.
What is this going to be like?
Is this going to be freakingcorny, or is this going to be
really personal?
Do I have to say anything?
(24:03):
And so I'll read all theresponses of the hopes and the
fears, and that puts it out too,very similar.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Once you unify, we're all together, probably thinking
a lot of, you know, becausethat's the one thing that's
great about it is nobody listensto the thing.
Whatever gets read anonymously,nobody thinks judgment upon
that person.
We all, we can kind ofempathize, like oh no, I can see
that.
I kind of think that as well.
So I'm glad somebody else inthe room is thinking this too
and it's a really good, reallygood thing.
(24:35):
So you mentioned earlier that itand this might be the- answer
to the question, but I stillwant to ask because it might not
be it, but you said that ittakes about five days before
people open up, and I got thataround day five you can see them
open up.
That may be the answer, but Iwant to ask you why?
Because I know you're verypassionate about the retreat
model, where you have that longretreat model of counseling and
(24:58):
growth.
Is that the reason, and if not,what is your reason, for loving
that model so much?
So good question.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I mean again, I would love to have enough funding to
be able to have a longer retreatup here.
The only retreats I've done uphere have been long weekend up
in YMCA of the Rockies, estesPark.
And that was amazing.
No one knew me, but the VAdistributed a flyer I sent them
and they I was so grateful andthey I was so grateful for that
(25:30):
and I was overwhelmed with calls.
So it was the language maybe Iused in the flyer, I don't know,
but it spoke to people andthere was so much need.
But that was only a weekend.
So what I essentially did istake a seven day model and I
packed it into a weekend andpeople from New Mexico on my
team drove up to help me.
They didn't even want gas money.
(25:50):
I was shocked.
Yeah, I was really touched.
All veterans, veteran couplesand one vet who was a solo came
up to help from the team.
But in terms of the seven daymodel in Angel Fire, that was
supported by a million dollargrant.
So you're talking about feedingup to 25, 30 people, including
(26:11):
staff, for seven days andrunning all the activities.
So I mean we were veryfortunate to apply for a million
dollar grant from theDepartment of Behavioral Health
in New Mexico and we got it.
That supported the program.
I don't know how many retreatsthat supported, but I think it
was spent over about two orthree years.
So I don't have that luxuryhere.
(26:33):
So that's not an answer exactlyto your question about what
happens on day five.
I think that the opening up onday five was that they knew they
had seven days.
When you know you have sevendays, you have the luxury of
unpacking things slowly In aweekend, like I've been doing
(26:54):
here, or want to do more of andhave two coming up a now booked
for April 26th or 28th, just aweekend.
It's going to be more of a.
Okay, this is what we're goingto, this is what we're doing
here.
Folks, this is what you knowthe model is and I can tell you
a little bit about that in aminute.
And then it will be up to themto determine how ready they feel
(27:17):
.
They might feel pressure.
I don't know.
It's my job to help them notfeel pressure, but we get kind
of down and dirty and do soquickly, as I call it the meat
and potatoes.
We get down to the meat andpotatoes and a lot of people
come for that.
I had one veteran who served inIraq.
(27:37):
He said I want the meat andpotatoes.
I'm like, can I borrow thatexpression?
I'm using that so you know ifthey're coming for that that's
what they're going to get withme.
But also, I am there to be ableto.
I should be able to gauge thegroup.
Some groups just aren't ready.
Some groups are like yeah,we're ready, let's get down to
brass tacks right away.
(27:57):
So I don't, I can't tell youwhat it would be like to do a
seven day model up here.
I think it would be amazing,but it's a long week, so my
ideal is five days.
That's what I would like toultimately go towards.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
And you believe that a retreat model is the best.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I do.
I've said that to you, I thinkoffline, I think the retreat
model for me in my experience isworth its weight in gold.
It's not the model, it's aretreat in general.
I think anybody runningretreats for any type of group
they don't have to be servicemembers, but people who want to
(28:38):
make big strides in their life.
They want to heal something,they want to heal a relationship
, they want to feel morecomfortable around their
triggers, whatever it might be.
If you are in that totalimmersion type experience and
you're bonding with others andyou're getting reassurance from
others and you're hearing theirstories and you're feeling that
(29:01):
you're not so unique anymore,you're hearing what maybe their
spouse is doing to be able tolive more in harmony with their
partner, whatever it is, you'regoing to get so much more when
you're with other people.
It's just what communityencourages.
Down in New Mexico at thatprogram, day five was, I think,
(29:23):
those particular people we sawthe big change in.
They were settling in, I think,to a place of trust.
They felt held by the otherveterans there, the older
veterans there, a lot of OIF andOEF veterans golf on down.
Let's say they revere a lot ofVietnam veterans and that was
(29:46):
exactly what happened at theprogram.
The Vietnam veterans werealmost like the beloved uncle,
became like the beloved unclesand aunts to them.
I don't want to stress thatthese were all men, because they
weren't.
There were a lot of femaleveterans that came to our
program as well and they justbecame like these older folks
that the younger veterans lookedup to and felt held by.
(30:09):
That was a beautiful thing towatch.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I've always enjoyed.
I've had several conversationswith Vietnam veterans now and I
always think about thingsthey're dealing with.
They're just 30 years, 40 yearsahead of me and I always think
about what will be going on inmy life in 30 years.
That's similar to thingsthey're dealing with.
It's interesting, but thank youfor sharing that.
(30:35):
You had also mentioned thethree different types of people
that show up with the trauma,that they had the trauma and
they brought that forward withthem.
They had the trauma as a kidand it made them stronger, or
they never experienced it at all.
I imagine anybody listening itwould classify themselves in
(30:59):
maybe one of those three camps.
Do all three of those meetdifferent levels of retreats or
different levels of items to gethealing, or is the healing on
the other side still verysimilar?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
You know, I think, if you are a, I think if the
person hosting the retreat hasdone it enough and has a wide
enough array of topics andthemes, so to speak themes, you
will affect everyone there.
Okay, because and that's my,that's what I am responsible to
(31:34):
do.
Okay, so if I just said this isgoing to be a retreat just for
those who served in combat andexperienced, you know, severe
trauma during combat, I wouldleave out so many people that
either had trauma prior or cameback from, you know, left
service and ended up beingshattered by some family event
(31:54):
or, you know, their wife ortheir husband died way too young
, like a call I got recently.
Yeah, there, there are just somany scenarios, right, and if
you don't touch on all thosedifferent aspects of someone's
life, you'll miss helpingsomeone.
So the idea is to touch oneverything we talk about.
Oh my gosh.
(32:15):
So we talk about relationshipwith the self and triggers and
put trigger.
You know, people have peoplecall out their triggers and
stick them up on the wall, andsome people are very serious
about it.
Some people are laughing andwhat that does is end up with
the retreat with these triggersall over the walls that stay
there for the, for the time thatwe're together, and again
(32:36):
normalizes them.
We talk about sexuality and youknow what it's like to be
serving sometimes.
You know for you know just somany months on end and
pornography and the impact ofthat on intimate relationships
and you know how that's allreceived by the other person in
(32:57):
the relationship.
I mean, we talk abouteverything.
It's just an example ofsomething that used to be so
taboo, but I think it'simportant to talk about.
I remember the first time Isaid okay, so my, my co-director
here doesn't want to unpackthis, but I'm going to and we
you know the room laughs and andwe went forward and did that
and it was.
(33:17):
You know there's a lot of fuelthere.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
So I love that you, I love that you stepped into it,
because if you're asking peopleto get vulnerable, and yet at
the front of the room, if we'renot willing to be vulnerable, it
doesn't.
You know, there's a certainreciprocal relationship that
takes place there, I believe,from the front of the room to
participants.
So I love that you take itthere, you're right, there it is
.
(33:40):
And you also and you hadmentioned this in the past and
kind of in our, our callsleading up to this some terms of
a moral injury or heartbreak,and I know that's at the core of
your work and I was hopingmaybe you could define more
injury or heartbreak.
What is that and why is it suchan important thing for you to
discuss and unpack?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Okay.
Well, yes, it's.
It's, you know, an integralpart of my work that I have come
to be so comfortable with andso interested in that I have now
very confidently gone out on alimb and said I believe that
what the VA calls moral injury Idon't call it that and I'll get
into that in a second but whatthe VA is is calling moral
(34:23):
injury is a signature wound ofwar, that Trump's post-traumatic
stress as a as very limiting,more negative fallout of the
service experience.
They definitely can overlap incertain scenarios, but they can
also be mutually exclusivethings and I can explain that as
well.
But I do believe that moral andethical conflicts that are so
(34:46):
oh my gosh, they're just socommon place in military service
, including training forward,that over time have realized
that many more people suffer,often lifelong, from a moral and
ethical conflict that slowlyhas eaten away at them because
they didn't have language for it.
They didn't know what theexactly what they were feeling.
(35:10):
I don't.
I'll start here with the termmoral injury.
I want to say it was about 15years or so ago.
There were several differentbooks written about moral injury
and people had never heard theterm before it was coined, I
think originally I sent youinformation on this.
(35:32):
I don't know if it was coinedby Brett Litz, but Brett Litz
was a psychologist who began totalk about moral injury.
More Veterans who I have spokento over time hate that term.
They really hate that term orit throws them because they
which I understand the termitself throws them.
I had one guy say to me are youwhat moral injury?
(35:54):
Are you telling me that what Idid over in Vietnam, I busted my
ass in Vietnam, that I shouldfeel guilty about that, that I
have some sort of moral guiltabout that?
And I said no, that's notnecessarily what it means at all
.
So a lot of veterans don't likethat term.
They also don't like the terminjured, because what veteran
who's trained well and trainednot to be vulnerable, wants to
(36:19):
be told that they are injured?
No one wants to be told that,veteran or not, no one likes to
be called injured or disabled,and yet those terms are still
used a lot.
So I listened and I don't usethat term I use.
I differentiate between a moralconflict and a moral wound.
So you have a moral conflict.
An example I can give you is awoman who served the NSA.
(36:45):
She was a veteran.
She was hired by the NSA andshe made a bad call.
She felt on something on theheads up display that she was
watching and she made a bad calland people were very badly
injured and were killed morethan just a couple and she felt
so much guilt and shame aroundthat she felt it was entirely
(37:06):
her fault but she didn't feel.
She didn't feel she feltmorally wounded but she didn't
feel that it was that she wasdisabled by it.
She didn't feel that.
She felt that she was to blame.
She wanted to move forward in ahealthier way but was having a
lot of guilt and shame aroundthat and I'm sorry that I've
(37:26):
sort of lost my train of thought.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
It's okay.
I know you were describing moreinjury and mentioning that
people just do not enjoy thatterm, which I can.
I can understand, yeah, butalso it gets me back to I don't
know if that brings you backinto your thought.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
It brought me back to her.
You know the pain she feltaround that.
So a moral conflict would bethat she's got to make that call
.
She's looking at a heads updisplay.
She has a big decision to make.
That's the moral conflict.
Do I take these people out ornot?
Is this the enemy or am Ilooking at civilians here?
(38:06):
That was the dilemma, and shemade a call and it was not the
right one.
So that's the conflict, theheartbreak I told you.
I call I don't call moralconflict a heartbreak.
The heartbreak is the resultoften, whether it's a soul ache
or a heartbreak.
It's my opinion, after hearingI don't know now, thousands of
(38:27):
stories from all differentpeople civilians and service
members that it almost alwaysends up in a feeling of great
shame, sadness, depression,sometimes lifelong, because it
feels like I saw this, I didthis, I was forced to do this,
didn't want to do this, or I diddo it, I liked it at the time
but I regretted it later.
(38:48):
Those are all the differentways it can look.
And now I'm carrying this thingthat happened to me, that I
feel shame around.
I don't even believe that theVA has a diagnostic criteria for
it yet.
I'd have to check that, but fora long time they haven't had
any diagnosis for it.
They might say, hey, I believethat this client of mine who's
(39:11):
sitting in front of me has moralinjury, as they call it, but
there's no diagnostic criteria,to my understanding, because
it's complicated.
And the reason it's complicatedis that it can show up in
literally hundreds of differentways Something you did,
something you were forced to dosomething, you heard something,
(39:31):
for instance against the rulesof engagement and I guess that
happens a lot all the time maybebut something that you know is
wrong, but you see someone elsedo it.
Maybe you're watching a rape,maybe you're watching somebody
doing something that their NCOor whoever told them Don't you
dare do that, and they go and doit.
(39:52):
You know, whatever it can bewatching, listening, doing or,
as I think I said earlier, itcan be something that you even
enjoyed doing at the time, thatyou thought was funny.
Maybe you were, you know,having fun with a bunch of
people, you were drunk, you knowwhatever it might be, and you
thought it was a good old time.
And then, years later, you getsome perspective because you
(40:14):
have that distance and yourealize that what you all did
was quite horrible, what happensoften.
So a moral conflict can happenin the moment or it can happen
years later, and it usually is aconflict of your moral code,
your own personal sense of rightand wrong.
Whether the guy or the womannext to you has the same moral
(40:38):
code or not, it makes nodifference, because there are
people who can watch a certainevent happen and say, well, that
sucked, it's awful, but theydon't carry it, they're not
broken by it or feel like theirsoul's been ripped out.
And there are those thatcertainly do carry it, but they
hadn't had words for it and it'sbeen.
(40:58):
You know, moral and ethicalconflicts and the fallout of a
soul ache or heartbreak, as Icall it has been around since
man has been on the planet.
You know, ulysses talked aboutit in the Iliad or the Odyssey,
I can't remember, but he talksabout injuring a man, killing a
man, and then he meets the man'sfather and the man's father is
(41:20):
grieving over the loss of hisson and Ulysses starts to feel
not proud anymore of taking thatman's life as he did.
He starts to feel regretful and, in grief for the man's grief,
he starts to feel regret.
So a moral conflict can produceregret and shame, anger anger
(41:44):
at another or anger at oneselfand, like I said, it's been
around since the beginning oftime.
So when I first bumbled my waythrough this in New Mexico, it
was because my co-director andwe talk about this.
This is not a confidentialthing.
He turned to me that day and hesaid Mary, that's all you.
And I said why?
You're the veteran.
(42:05):
You went to war, Don't youthink that this is something you
should be handling?
And he said absolutely not.
I don't want to touch hissubject right now, I'm not ready
.
And then I got it and I saidsay no more, say no more.
He flew almost 250 combatmissions over Vietnam.
So I said, ok, I'll learn.
And so I asked a lot ofdifferent veterans teach me.
(42:27):
This is my understanding ofwhat it means to be witnessing
something or be part ofsomething that goes against your
own personal sense of right andwrong.
So I want to know how yourelate to this.
Did you ever experience this inyour life or in service, and
how did it look and how did itmake you think and feel, and
(42:48):
what have you done to address it, if anything?
So that's how I've learnedabout this topic.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
And what is, you know , if anybody is feeling that,
thank you for that greatdefinition of it.
And if somebody's in the middleof it, what are the solutions
to help people get on the?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
other side of it.
Well, again, I felt so lucky tohave been exposed to so many
people and hear it be expressedin so many different ways and
use the term moral injury atfirst, and then we changed it,
you know, to moral conflict.
I saw heads go down on thetable and I misread that as I'm
(43:27):
bumbling.
I don't know what I'm talkingabout.
I'm the non-veteran up here.
And then the heads came up,tears going down some of the
faces, but at the breaks peoplecoming up to me were saying I
get it.
Now.
My VA counselor said I hadpost-traumatic stress.
I never thought I had PTS or Idropped the D but I never
(43:50):
thought I had PTS.
But I knew I had something andI was struggling with something,
but I didn't.
It didn't have a name.
Now I get it.
So what I was seeing was not somuch necessarily grief, I was
seeing relief.
So the first step to answeryour question is understanding
what's going on in here and here.
(44:10):
If we don't start with that, wecan't do any sort of
interactive exercises or releasetechniques which I do a lot of
Any type of healing treatments,unless we first help that person
understand.
Well, tell me about it.
What's going on in here, how doyou relate to that concept of
(44:30):
moral and ethical conflict?
How did it look to you?
When did you first realize thatit was causing you any pain or
shame or anger or regret?
How does that show up in you?
So, after we're able to sort ofpiece that out, I explained to
them which took a while for myco-director and I to really work
(44:50):
this out I explained that oursense of morality, our moral
compass, exists in the core ofour being.
It's really in the core.
If people have a religiousbelief, if they have religious
beliefs and they believe in God,that might be for them what God
gave them, their sense of self,who they are, their core being.
(45:15):
One guy who came to the programsaid well, I don't believe in
God, I don't believe thatthere's this God-given sense of
morality.
He said to me, it's my core, mycore self and my belief system.
So all of that is in there atthe core of someone's being.
Who you are, what your valuesare, that make you the person
(45:36):
that shows up and how you showup.
So you've got this core andthen you've got your personality
, maybe on the outside of yourcore and your work or your
intimate life with your family,whatever it is.
You've got this sort of if youcan picture that sort of diagram
, but in the center resides yourmoral compass that informs all
(45:59):
your decisions and the way youfeel about your actions and
other people's actions.
So when trauma comes in, youcan picture this core, this
solid core.
When trauma comes in, itessentially blows up that sense
of surety and confidence in whoyou are, because when something
(46:22):
big happens to you, it can'thelp but change you, Can't help
but change us.
So anything that happens inchildhood or in service or
post-service or whenever it is,if it's big it's going to impact
our sense of self.
So I think his name is BillWilliam Russell, who about oh
(46:43):
God, maybe 12, 15 years ago ormore, came out with a book
called God is Not here and heserved as an interrogator in
Iraq.
He was assigned to an Iraqiintelligence officer and he
became an interrogator.
That book was just what do youcall it?
It was reviewed by somemilitary higher ups like brass
(47:05):
who said this is the kind of guywe hate.
I get it.
He came so clean with how hefelt, how he when he was
assigned to the intelligenceofficer and he had to
interrogate prisoners.
He hated it.
At first he thought I don'tthink I'm going to be able to do
this, I don't think I canhandle it.
But he grew to like it, he grewto actually take pleasure in
(47:28):
their strategies and then hehated himself for that and then
he would go home.
He was deployed a couple oftimes to Iraq but he would go
home and he talks about how hewould kiss his kids good night.
He would hold them and kissthem and read to them and he
started to realize that here'sthis guy who kind of feels like
(47:51):
some sick jerk, you know, takingpleasure in his job as an
interrogator not pridenecessarily, but just really
liking the work and doing itvery well, and then going home
and being tender with his wifeand reading to his kids.
And he described it so well asfeeling like he's two or maybe
(48:14):
even three different people.
So he ends up in a psych ward.
Post war he was so confused hefelt about who he really was
because he felt like he lost hisMoral compass.
The trauma of what he did andyou know all that went on for
him before he left service wasso intense that the confusion
(48:36):
came in of who am I now?
Who am I now that I did this?
Does it make me a good personor bad person?
Am I the guy that kisses herkids and loves his wife and
family?
Or am I that sick guy who tookpleasure in what I did For the
military?
It was, it's a great book andit never got the attention it
(49:00):
deserved, but I found itfascinating and I almost I feel
like I want to call him sometimeand see if I can get him to
come to Colorado and speak.
I wonder how he's doing so.
He was doing very well when hewrote the book, after, you know,
ending up in a psych ward.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
He wrote it after being in a psych ward yeah is he
a dress kind of?
I mean, I love the using theterm.
The moral compass was Wasshaken.
Yeah, towards the end of it washe able to feel like he got his
moral compass back on track andif, was that the solution that
he needed?
Speaker 2 (49:34):
I think so.
He.
I mean I'm now you're tappingmy long term memory here, but I
think he talks about exerciseshe did like putting the enemy in
a chair In his room and makinga daily habit of speaking to the
enemy and having some sort ofreconciliation conversations
(49:55):
imaginary obviously that werereally therapeutic for him, I
think really helped him a lot.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Was.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
I'm sorry no, that's it.
That's all I remember about oneof the things he did if you
don't mind, because I did notread it.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
so what was the name of the book?
Speaker 2 (50:09):
God is not here okay captain William or captain Bill
Russell.
He lives in California or helived in California when he
wrote the book.
I don't know where he's now.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yeah so you mentioned Earlier and thank you for
sharing that that a lot ofpeople don't have the language
or don't know how to define kindof what they're feeling.
Which I know is a brown has abunch of stuff out that I love
her, she's great, how she'sfantastic, but she talks about
how it's impossible to actuallyfeel and understand the feeling
that you can't define.
(50:39):
And that brought me back to youstating that you know having
the language, so what you have,that you said you have some
really exercises that you Reallyenjoy doing.
Once you kind of get to thatpoint and just really curious
ask what is your favorite theseexercise that you do with people
, just for anybody listening,what's your favorite thing to do
(51:00):
?
Speaker 2 (51:01):
in the case of dealing with someone who's who's
challenged by a moral, a moralepisode, a conflict that ended
up just destroying their, whatwould it be in the case of deep
moral conflicts?
This sense of shame can be sogreat that it destroys their
belief in themselves, sometimesto the point of spatially I've
(51:25):
read an article about thisspatially the person becomes
even just you know, completelydisoriented.
And when I read that I didn'tunderstand it and I began to
piece things together over years.
And it seems that whensomeone's moral compass is so
rocked or literally feels likeit's been ripped out of their
body, their soul has been rippedout of their body.
(51:46):
That's been described a lot bysome in combat that they become
disoriented.
And I thought, well, why?
And I think it's because theydon't know really who they are
anymore.
If you don't have the anchor ofa moral compass to inform you
inform how you deal with whatyou've just had to do if you
(52:10):
lose that somehow, you literallycan lose your sense of identity
and therefore, as this articlesaid, in extreme cases even your
spatial compass, where you arein space, your proprioception, I
think, is the word.
I didn't believe that until Imet this guy who called himself
(52:32):
mad dog and he's an incrediblehuman being and has.
He's had a rough road and he'sdoing quite well now.
But he had a rough time.
He's a Vietnam veteran and hetalks about how he ended up
going beyond the wire withouthis weapon.
He became so apathetic, hedidn't care about anything
anymore.
He had seen too much During thewar and he started, you know,
(52:56):
just leaving his weapon behindlike just kill me now kind of a
feeling.
When he got out he was reallysuffering and he ended up
feeling completely disoriented.
And when he said that myantenna went up and I said, what
do you mean?
And he said, mary, I didn'teven know where I was in space.
He went up and lived homeless.
(53:17):
He became homeless and went upand lived in the mountains and
he was up there alone for aboutthree years Just trying to get
his bearings, literally get hisbearings again.
But he didn't have the language, he didn't know what he was
dealing with, he just knew thathe was Very disoriented because
too much had happened to him.
So the way that we worked withhim and he actually was my
(53:38):
client, so I, you know, I feelvery close to him and very
respectful of everything.
You know all the pain that hewent through.
He needed to understand what Ifelt we were looking at, and for
him it was a lot about morality, because he was raised with A
beautiful moral compass and hefelt it was just shattered
because of all he saw and partpart took in all the stuff he
(54:02):
had taken part in.
And so we talked about well,who are you now, who do you want
to be now?
So part of the my exercisesaround this are really helping
the person understand whatthey've been through, who they
think they were in that time,who they want to be now or think
that they are now, and where,what kind of person do they
really want to be?
(54:23):
Let's map out your morals.
Let's map out your, your values.
Let's look at a series ofarchetypes.
So, at the program I used towork for, we had a whole list of
archetypes, like loser, fuck up, hero, you know whatever, might
have spoken to people.
We kind of made him up or wetook him out of a book partially
(54:45):
and we had a list of about youknow, I don't know 50 archetypes
and we said, okay, we'd likeyou to check out this list.
Which ones do you resonate withthe most?
Do you feel like you're a hero?
Do you feel like you're a giver?
Do you feel like you're a youknow a brainiac?
Are you a killer?
You know whatever, what?
Who are you?
And we had them check as manyas applied and then we worked
(55:09):
with them around that.
So that's a great exercise, issomething we developed.
And in terms of releasetechniques, you know when you're
working with this stuff thepeople are often re experiencing
and you don't want them to reexperience to the point of
extreme intensity.
You want to keep it you know,boundary as best as possible
while helping them tap into someof those feelings.
(55:30):
So the techniques that I'mcertified in are some of the
tapping you've probably heardabout emotional freedom
technique.
I'm certified in that, which Idon't use as much anymore.
I use what's called a lesserknown technique called T A T
tapas, acupressure technique,where the person is holding the
(55:50):
back of their head.
You know, near that, your oxyput the base of the skull and
your thumb and ring finger onthe bridge of your nose and one
or two fingers lightly on thecenter of your forehead, which
is your prefrontal cortex area,and you're essentially trying to
.
It's kind of obscure, butyou're trying to hook up your
(56:14):
amygdala.
That part of the brain is likea filing cabinet of all those
triggers and sights and soundsand smells, memories.
You're trying to essentiallyhook that up to your executive
reasoning functions of the brainup here.
Because when we get triggeredwhether we're, you know, talking
about our past experiences arein the moment when we get
(56:37):
triggered what usually happensis there's no gap for us to
think logically about a reaction, we just react.
Right, it's a hair trigger.
I think that's where the wordtrigger comes from hair trigger.
So the prefrontal cortex, thosereasoning functions get
hijacked by the amygdala.
The amygdala just hijacks it.
So we don't have time to reason, we just feel or think or move
(57:03):
as a trauma response in reactionto that trigger.
And you know I've heard I lovetrigger work because, especially
with groups, because, as I said, I love to have everyone call
them out.
You know the smell of coffeeshoppers in the in the sky.
You know that pop up, up, up,up up, the smell of Blood
(57:24):
fireworks.
You know things that people seeor things that people do, or
the ticking of a fan.
There are millions, you know,and they're all so unique to the
individual so to have them upon the wall, like I said, really
normalizes things.
So that's an exercise I woulddo individually with someone as
well.
My protocol, though, is mainlydrilling down on identity.
(57:47):
Who am I now?
Do I feel like I'm?
Two different people are threedifferent people, like Russell,
for example, said.
Do I want to be different?
Is there anything I can changeabout the past?
Is there any one I need toaddress?
Is there anything I need toaddress with that person that is
on, spoken, on said, if they'realive and if they're not, how
(58:09):
do I reconcile that?
Who am I now?
If I don't do that, if I justkind of push it under the rug
and let it go home, I now is it.
Am I gonna hold this bag ofcrap?
You know that the the shame orthe regret, am I gonna hold that
forever?
Or am I gonna, you know, man up, woman up and go do something
(58:30):
about it?
Speaker 1 (58:31):
So we work through identity and get very clear who
they feel like they are and whothey want to be, and working,
you know, setting goals aroundthat so finding out who they
feel they are now, who they wantto be, and then setting goals,
working towards that Mm-hmm,that identity that we want to
associate with yes, exactly Huh.
(58:52):
I said I just I like that levelof thinking a lot and then, you
know, part of that work isimage replacement.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
I call it, it's my term.
There are things out there soyou know there are so many great
things out there now forveterans to experiment with, to
reduce some of the more painfulmemories, you know, lessen them
or or transform them intosomething more positive.
There are a lot of techniquesout there, but one of the basic
(59:19):
things I love is met guidedmeditation, and I do it with big
groups so you'll have everyonedoing it at once and, for
example, I will have themImagine walking through the
woods and the different thingsin the visualization represent
different things in life.
And I won't tell them that tothe end.
This is based on a meditationby my mentor, who's no longer
(59:40):
with us, but she designed a walkin the woods meditation and
people love it because what?
What you're doing with them isHaving them walk a path through
the woods, seeing a certain cup,what that represents to them,
asking them what that mightRepresent, what they do with the
cup.
Did they touch it?
Does it change?
(01:00:01):
Coming across a body of water,coming across a house, a
Structure, you don't tell themwhat it is.
You see what shows up for them.
So a lot of the guys who arecoming in when oh gosh, this was
around, there's a lot of IraqCombat veterans who joined our
program I think it was withinabout three years of the surge
(01:00:23):
and they were during thismeditation.
They were seeing nothing butburned out shacks.
They said I can't, you know, Ican't see anything positive.
I see link, you know, just dryterrain and burned out shacks,
and they were getting verytriggered by it.
So then I would redo themeditation and put in Positive
imagery or I would suggestchanging.
(01:00:46):
You know, work with this asbest you can.
You're seeing a burned outshack.
Change it into a cabin or somesome type of structure You've
always wanted to own.
What would that be?
Would it be modern?
Would it be a cabin?
Start to build it, start tochange your imagery.
So I call that imagereplacement and it's highly
effective.
And you repeat it and repeat it, and repeat it until they're
(01:01:08):
able to see some reallybeautiful things in that
Meditation.
Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
For example, I love that exercise.
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you takingsome time and so well Sharing
all of this wonderful, wonderfulinformation.
Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Well, thank you and thanks for your service, dad.
I'd like to hear more aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
I'm looking forward to several great conversations.
We're just for anybodyinterested.
I know you mentioned you have aretreat coming up.
Yeah, where can somebody thatwanted to learn more or speak
with you or just learn moreabout what you're doing?
Where should they?
Where should they go to get intouch with you?
Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Well, people are always welcome to call me.
My number is not all impactprograms.
That the retreat very excitingto me because it's been too long
with COVID in there.
It's been too long since I didany group stuff and I'm really
itching to get back to it.
That will be in West Lovelandat a place that is actually
owned by two veterans, or aveteran couple a guardsman and a
(01:02:04):
former senior master sergeanthis, his spouse, is a former
senior master sergeant.
So they're a great couple andthey own what's called copper
falls.
Copper falls wedding and eventcenter.
It's a small, completelyprivate place.
There's no other people who aregoing to be there and they have
a beautiful waterfall and youknow, lovely manicured grounds,
(01:02:27):
a little stream, wildlifewalking above the cliff.
And that will be April 26ththrough 28th for anybody who,
any veteran who is either activeor Now a veteran, with their
spouse, partner, support person,that's who it's for so.
(01:02:50):
I really look forward to that.
Yeah, it'll be a very dynamic,interactive retreat.
Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
No doubt just speaking and then hearing All of
the things that you're doing, Iknow that's going to be a huge
success.
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Thank you for the time.
I really appreciate theopportunity that absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
I'm looking forward to the next one.
I.
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