Birth Order

On this episode of One Brain at a Time we discuss birth order, sibling dynamics, family dynamics, and what effects they might have in your relationships, romantic or not, throughout your life.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to One Brain at a Time. I'm Dr. K.

(00:04):
And I'm Dr. J.
So, really excited about today's topic because it's something obviously lived experience,
but there might be a little debating going on here. So, what we're thinking about talking
and reviewing is birth order.

(00:25):
Dum dum dum.
Yeah, I absolutely want to know the birth order with the folks that I'm working with.
Do you?
Uh-huh.
Oh my gosh, I never ask.
Oh gosh, yeah.
Maybe I do.
Yeah, of course I do. Of course I do.

(00:45):
So, the theory of birth order was developed by a theorist named Alfred Adler. And he developed
this birth order theory in order to understand which order a child was born that perhaps
it shaped their development and their personality.

(01:08):
Yeah, and some of that his earlier work we're talking over a hundred years ago, right? He
was like...
He was born in the late 1800s.
Oh, okay. So, I'm losing track of time because it is 2023. So, like a hundred years ago sounds

(01:29):
about right. But early on his work was kind of, I don't know, maybe a little sterile,
a little more on the negative side.
Um, that's not how I took it. No, because I'm so drawn to this. But, you know, he was

(01:51):
of the era with Jung and Freud. They were contemporaries of his developing their theories.
Well, kind of interesting, probably not a popular topic back then, but in modern psychology
and modern psychology being within the last hundred years or so, how... Yeah, that's interesting.

(02:19):
I didn't think about it until we were just talking right now, how innovative that thinking
was.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, for reference sake, birth order, I am team youngest child.
And I am team oldest.

(02:40):
So, our homework was to research each other's birth order in our family. And we were going
to share what some of the characteristics are and weigh in if we agree or disagree.

(03:00):
And just for reference sake too, the birth order in our family of origin is you, then
our brother who was 15 months behind you. And then five years later, the greatest gift,
the greatest gift of all.

(03:20):
And this is what fits the youngest birth order criteria. True story. So, would you like me
to go first?
Oh, sure. Absolutely. You can go.
So these are, you know, again, this is meant to be a thought provoking conversation, but

(03:45):
also to have some fun because I don't even begin to claim I am an expert on this material,
but it has been topics of conversation in therapy with clients, just birth order, what
that means. And even, and we'll talk about this later, the relationship of romantic relationships,

(04:10):
of friendships and how that lines up. So this will be fun. Yeah. All right. So because we
don't have a middle child represented in this conversation, I just wanted to just bullet
point some of the stuff I pulled off the internet. So middle child, it is said they are peacemakers

(04:33):
and pleasers. They are competitive. They are independent. They are easygoing, innovative,
self motivated, successful, make great parents and feel left out. So again, I can't speak

(04:54):
to this position of order, but wanted to make sure that our middle children who are listening
were represented. The other, other birth order that was worth mentioning too, as only children.
Yes. And again, you and I can't speak to that. However, I'm married to an only child and

(05:20):
I have an only child. And so a couple of characteristics that I pulled off the, off the web was they
are mature. They are perfectionist. They are conscientious and diligent, which I thought
was interesting because Jack, Jack, Jack, Jack. And from a birth order standpoint, the

(05:41):
onlys and the oldest are usually similar. Very similar. Yes. Okay. So getting started
with team youngest. And I want to say I was fair to put down some of the challenges in
this birth order too. So I have an, as I said before, I just pulled it off of the internet

(06:08):
in no particular order. Positive. We tend to be positive. The youngest tend to be positive.
Yes. Okay. Wait a minute. Am I going to say these in every time? I was just making sure

(06:34):
who we were talking about. I agree with that attribute. I think I can be very positive
individual. Um, second one uncomplicated, which I do agree. Uh, outgoing and charming.

(06:55):
Yes. Yes. Hardworking. Yes. Persistent. Oh yes. Funny. Yes. Social. Oh my gosh. Yes.
Yes. Right. Um, and so this is where I will address the, uh, not so flattering, although

(07:22):
I have arguments to counteract, uh, temperamental, which I don't, I wouldn't see my, I wouldn't
say I'm temperamental. Would you rarely, rarely, I think a temperamental is like kind of tantrum

(07:47):
mean. And I think I speak for all we know when you're not happy. Oh, I can't wait to
get to your list. No, when we haven't delivered the goods, whether it's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(08:13):
We get the point. I think, I think on the list of oldest is delusional. Um, this one's
spoiled. You know, it's funny because I think even if you're not into birth order, that's
a general idea with youngest and I don't see myself as spoiled. No, I don't, I don't see

(08:41):
you as spoiled. I think that there were times growing up. Um, for instance, um, dad, one
Easter gave you the largest Easter egg basket and John and I got average sizes. It should

(09:03):
be. What's the issue with that? Did you tell your sleep in therapist about that best? Well,
I think also too, I remember growing up that both you and our brother's names, John would
kind of call mom out. I don't know so much to have, but you were so much harder on us

(09:29):
than you are on her that kind of thing. So I guess maybe if that equates to spoiled.
Well, I mean, having two kids myself, I know that, um, the realization I knew I just wanted
two kids. And so my youngest was my baby. And so I, as I've said earlier, I love being

(09:52):
a mama and I just feel like my parenting at times was skewed because I looked at this
child as my baby. Um, and so I think that at least with dad, he had some of that with
you. Right. Um, and I think another factor about this is birth order, but then another

(10:20):
sub layer would be gender, just family system set up. There's impact on all of it. But,
yeah. Okay. Back to me. Um, I thought this one was way off. Impatient. No, no, no, that

(10:45):
doesn't. No, not at all. I mean, impatient to me. I think it's more driven. We're driven
to get things done. And when they're not getting done, we just encourage people to get them
done. Why are you laughing? There are times that you can be invasive. Oh my gosh. This

(11:18):
is so priceless. Watching you be diplomatic. Oh my gosh. I didn't realize how much fun
this is going to be. And what's even better is being able to associate this to the brain
because birth order and brain definitely has a correlation. If all of this is true, how

(11:42):
birth order impacts the brain. Yeah. So, uh, going back to my list, I saw this on several
lists and I didn't really appreciate it, but it said manipulative. What the, what is that
shenanigans? Again, I, I don't, I rarely see that. Manipulative. What about motivated?

(12:13):
Like I motivate, I don't manipulate. That sounds so harsh. Oh Lord. And last but not
least self centered was on several lists. And I think that kind of goes back to, at

(12:36):
least in my mind, that idea of being spoiled, entitled, it's all about me kind of stuff.
And I absolutely, I think it's adopted in our family, my statement of it's all about
me. Um, which is true. That has been your slogan for at least 35 years. I know. And

(13:04):
who knew it was just part of my birth order. I think it's amazing. The two others that
I forgot to mention, uh, which I identified with was free spirited. Now that's for sure
you and adventurous. Yep. Yes. You have absolutely. So let me ask you with the list that I just

(13:27):
went through percentage wise, how much would you say that's me spot on? Oh, I can't wait
for your list and you better have put challenging ones on there. All right. And I agree with
that. All right. Let's hear. All right. So the first one is domineering. Domineering.

(13:58):
Well, it's funny though, because when you think of that, if you were to have, if you
would have said that to me when we were kids, a hundred percent, but I wouldn't, I would
not choose that word to describe you today. I agree with you, but I definitely, um, identify

(14:20):
it when we were younger. Yeah. Yeah. Um, oh, and that's a good point too, because I think
a lot of the stuff I took off the internet was based on children, but, uh, but obviously
the stuff can change as you. Yeah. Um, another one was protective. Yep. Overachieving potential

(14:45):
for leadership, responsible, determined, I'm blowing through all of these. I know. Notice
how you don't pause to have my reaction. So, um, am I protective? A hundred percent. Am

(15:06):
I overachieving? Yes. Uh, do I have potential for leadership? Yes. Am I responsible? Yes.
Am I determined? Yes. Am I outspoken? I would say I don't think that would be my go-to,

(15:32):
but if it's, uh, something that you're passionate about, but I'm guessing that's, yeah, I would
say 50 50. It says, um, because a first born is sometimes seen as a spokesperson for their
siblings, many find comfort within advocating for themselves and others. So again, so that

(15:55):
point of what we said when we were kids, yes. Yeah. You definitely were the spokesperson.
Um, ambitious. Yep. Opinionated. Um, you know, I don't think I, I, I would say when I was
younger, absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Um, so those are the things that, um, characterize

(16:22):
the older oldest, um, in a family. Yeah. That's an interesting exercise actually to kind of
review this with a sibling and say, do you agree or not agree? So I think what it also

(16:44):
kind of conjures up is that our relationship today versus what it was when we were kids.
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Our, uh, we're five years and 11 months. Um, let's say six years, five
and 11 months. Come on. Um, so, you know, growing up when you were born, I have this

(17:09):
vivid memory of knowing mom and dad were at the hospital and then the phone rang and our
grandmother answered it and she got off and she said, it's a girl. And I just remember
the absolute sheer joy at almost 60 years of age that I had a sister. And so when you

(17:35):
were a baby, it was just so much fun. Um, well, especially I would imagine because you
were born into this world to be a mom. You've always had maternal energy. So having a live
doll. Yeah, that was it. Um, and then I think, um, the rules really started to get defined

(18:02):
when, um, our parents split and then, you know, we're eventually divorced and, um, yeah,
I mean, I just think that a lot of the things that I listed under oldest, um, definitely
became true for me. Right. And because I was so young, I wasn't really aware of, of the

(18:27):
chaos. And I think you, I don't think I know that you became the protector and especially
for myself and our brother that you were the surrogate parent for a lot of our childhood.
Yeah. In particular with you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was so adorable. So adorable. And

(18:54):
I, I feel like when I, early on, like, um, I'm going to say up until I probably hit middle
school ish, um, I would say that we were pretty close. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But once

(19:15):
I had, I'd say my sophomore year in high school and boys became, you know, an interest of
mine. Um, that's when I really saw you as the little annoying sister. What? Yes. I don't
think so. Yes. Could it have been any reason? One of my favorite stories is obviously if

(19:43):
you're listening to this, you can hear how much we sound alike. And back when we had
the rotary phones, that's right for the kids who are listening, Google it. Uh, when a boyfriend
would call and I'd pick up the phone and he would think I was you and I would play along

(20:04):
so I could find out the dirt. If you weren't doing that on the phone, you were spying.
Of course. So anyway, that's where I think that, um, you know, our age span started to
separate us because of where we were chronologically and maturity and where our needs were. Yeah.

(20:31):
Um, I think so. I have a different recollection of it because, um, I always, you know, everything
you did and everyone, your friends, everything, I was like, oh my gosh, she's so cool. And,
um, just any part of being a part was magic. And then you'd left to go to college. And

(20:57):
then after that, it seemed like because, well, at that point you were 18 and I was 12, so
junior high and I was getting into some trouble and really building autonomy as far as, you
know, um, I'm cool and I don't need you and I don't need anyone. And I think for a while,

(21:22):
I mean, we, we never were out of each other's lives, but, uh, I definitely started to, um,
I don't think I would say build independence, but definitely wasn't in that little kid,

(21:43):
little sister look up to you roll like, Oh, anything she thinks is everything. And, and
then going through, um, you getting married and having kids and, uh, who was 17 when Brittany
was born. So I was still basically a kid being an aunt, but how great that experience was

(22:10):
having babies in the, in the family. But I was never that maternal. You were always maternal.
And I was like, yeah, kids are cool, but I'm not like, Oh, I want to hang out all the time.
But, uh, yeah, through that time and I finished undergrad and then moved. And so we were always

(22:35):
in each other's lives, but I don't, obviously not the level of closeness we have today.
No, no, but you know what? Looking back, you and I were just in different phases of our
lives and it was good. You know, you were that adventurous, um, person going to other

(22:59):
parts of the country and trying out different things. And I was being responsible as a young
mom and taking care of my kids and doing my thing. But I really feel that, you know, once
you got married and then had, um, your child, I was trying to figure out how to word for

(23:28):
those of you who don't know, my sister looks at me as if I was her surrogate because my
daughter, her niece, she feels as her daughter is my third child. But, um, you know, that
definitely started putting us on the same plane, um, in life together. Oh my gosh. You

(23:51):
were my lifeline when I became a mom. Well, you were my lifeline when dad had the stroke
and really I was down, down, down, down. And you were devastated as well, but you know,
decisions had to be made and I just, I was struggling and you allowed me my space. And

(24:17):
for me that was just such a monumental moment of you taking care of me. Yeah. Um, yeah.
Yeah. It's interesting too, because as you were just talking about that, I was thinking
how overall I would say that in all the 50 plus years we've been sisters, 85% has been

(24:47):
the dynamic of you being the caretaker and through my therapy and work, I really had
to step out of that because I couldn't be in a full relationship with you if I continued
to be the little kid with little kid expectations. And that was definitely a big, um, not a huge

(25:14):
part, but a bigger part to my own work. Yeah. And I had to get out of that place of guilt
that somehow I was failing you if I didn't show up and to allow you your process, which
in return allowed me to get more centered and out of the parent child role that we had

(25:39):
been in to sisters. Yeah. And I think that took place, um, at least my recollection is
that we had had some disagreements throughout the years or whatever that we never addressed.
And I think it festered at least on my part and it festered and because my strategy of

(26:00):
choice was to avoid, ironically not in my personal world, avoid in my professional world, you
know, tackle it right on. But being the little sister, the little kid, avoiding any kind
of disruption with you especially. But, um, I want to say it was about eight years ago

(26:26):
or so. I think it was Columbus day weekend or whenever I came up to Vermont and we sat
in your living room and laughed, cried, put it all out there. I think we talked for about
five hours and it really shifted the dynamic. And I feel like we were finally able to be

(26:50):
with one another as equals as opposed to the older sister, the little sister kind of thing.
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, talking about the birth order, you know, it's that space
where I still can slide back into that of, you know, whatever you want to do and, you

(27:14):
know, deferring to you because I want you happy.
Which I like. I like a little dysfunction every once in a while.
Oh my gosh. But, you know, that falls on me and it using my voice, which is like you.

(27:39):
I mean, I didn't use my voice so often until I was pushed emotionally into that place of
switching on my fighter and she came out and, you know, but yeah, I guess what I'm saying

(28:01):
is is that we're talking about birth order, but what also has to be mixed into this is
any other stuff, you know, trauma, anxiety, depression, substance use, all of this stuff
plays out in the whole equation on who we are personality wise.

(28:22):
Right. I think what's fascinating about the discussion of birth order is it's a jumping
off point. Yes. And as you were saying that you ask your clients or explore that, how
much has that, like how much does that take over in a session with somebody? Are you educating

(28:47):
people?
No, I'm just, it's for my own gain to, um, it gives me sort of a framework to ask questions.
Um, and oftentimes the oldest has still carried on a lot of those traits. Um, and that has

(29:12):
to be wrangled in because it's, there's a part of it that's great, but there's a part
of it that's dysfunctional. And I would say honestly that the middle child, which is they
feel forgotten is the one area that I haven't really put a lot of time in to understand

(29:34):
because I don't get a lot of middle children.
Well, how funny is that though, that that fits the criteria that they're not. It's awful.
It's awful. I mean, I've worked, as I said before, I don't make it a priority, but it
comes out naturally when I'm talking to folks because I'm such a family systems oriented

(29:58):
therapist. And so that naturally comes out and I think it's really the other layers to
it. You kind of touched upon it, but the oldest child, if female, the oldest child is male.
If the next child is female or male, like there's so many dynamics to it. Parent, what

(30:24):
the parent was, was the parent and all the mother and oldest in his parenting a young
kid. I mean, you can really go down the rabbit hole with all of the different formations
and how that can impact a relationship. Yeah. I've always found it interesting. Actually

(30:45):
you and I were just talking about this, I think yesterday that my mother in law is an
only my husband's and only and my daughter's and only and how for me being the youngest
because only in youngest are a good fit youngest and oldest are a good fit. Yeah. Not that

(31:09):
there's anything wrong with two youngest or two oldest or whatever, but if you were to
read anything about birth order and relationships. But the other thing I thought of was my three
bestest bestest bestest friends from childhood. All four of us are youngest. And what's so

(31:33):
funny is that the majority of my closest friends are all the oldest. So it makes me wonder
about relationships, you know, friendships, sisterhoods, that kind of thing. How interesting
that is. Yeah. Now you're yeah. First husband, only husband. I don't know why I keep doing

(32:01):
this. He was an only, I mean, a youngest. He was the youngest. Yeah. So from the perspective
of relationships that fit and you know what, when we think about romantic relationships
and what draws us to somebody like you were saying earlier, that if what we're saying

(32:24):
is true, then you're drawn to him was being in that caretaking mode. He would have been
in that like to be taken care of mode or whatever as a youngest and how yeah, it would have
been interesting to see if you had maybe you wouldn't have ever been drawn to an oldest.

(32:48):
Yeah, I think this is where unhealthy strategies of survival come in that I learned that my
value and worth was based on doing and over time, like it wasn't something that I consciously
said, Oh, I'm going to be kind and I'm going to take care of and I'm going to be and I'm

(33:14):
going to it was just something that materialized over time and I found my worth and value by
people recognizing that about me. Right. And so it makes perfect sense why I would choose
someone to take care of. Right. You know, and yeah, and that's a whole nother podcast.

(33:45):
Well it also talks about what this whole podcast is about the brain. If we're looking to feel
safe and normal and status quo in our lives, then assuming those roles, whether functional
or dysfunctional or somewhere in the middle, it would make sense to continue that role.

(34:11):
And that's where our work really starts to examine how does this role affect your daily
quality of life? Is it in balance? Is it out of balance? And so for me, cut back to me,
the youngest child, the funny kind of references before that being funny has always been a

(34:36):
great tool, a great strategy to avoid to deflect. And even though I love humor, when it was
out of balance, it wasn't a great quality to have because it was masking what was really
a lot of hurt, a lot of pain. So, but it also becomes our identity. Yeah. And so you have

(35:03):
such an incredible quick wit that I've always been so envious of that your brain can think
so quickly with a rebuttal to a situation or to a person. And so, you know, everybody
knows that you are fun-y with me. I'm going to guess that, you know, historically, if

(35:34):
anybody needed anything, I would, you know, like with the kids and my husband at the time,
I took care of all of their needs and I found such a sense of purpose and fulfillment. And
what I've realized is, is that, again, I was trying to feed this system that I had developed

(36:01):
of my value and my worth, and it didn't go outside of that. Right. So here's a meta question.
Yeah. Do you think if by divine action, I was born first and you were born last, would
we be fundamentally different people? I think that your development, if you had been firstborn,

(36:34):
it would have absolutely played out in who you are. Yeah. Are you going to tell me that
I wouldn't be as funny? I think you'd be funny as well as a parentified child. Yeah. Yeah.

(36:58):
I was going to say too, that for context for us, I think it's important to say or to point
out that her mother is the youngest of her tribe and her father, would he be considered
middle? Out of four kids, he was the second. The only boy. Yes. Which had a different dynamic

(37:27):
to it as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So couple wise, romantic wise, I can understand because
he was definitely more like you with that caretaking and mom has always been the adventurous.
Like she and I share humor. We share a lot of things. It's very quick with her. She and

(37:53):
I will just get going and can't even breathe. Some of my best memories are the three of
us together and we are just wetting our pants because we're laughing uncontrollably. I know.
She's got a wicked sense of humor. Yeah. So in terms of birth order, brain therapy, I

(38:20):
think we kind of covered it. Yeah. So I would suggest or, or, uh, offer the insight for
anyone who wants to learn more about this. It's real easy to look up online and Adler
was the jumping off point and it's nice that he started the conversation and I just saw

(38:44):
a research study. I think it was 2021 where they were looking at nine and 10 year olds
to see if birth order played a part in mental health. So I'm guessing Adler's looking down
going cool. You're taking my concept and taking it to the next level. Yeah. I just, I, for

(39:07):
me, like I said earlier, any tidbit of data that I can get on anybody is going to add
to the holistic treatment plan. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a fun discussion, especially with
your siblings. All right. Well, that's it on birth order for now. And I did want to

(39:30):
mention too, because you and I had talked about it. I just have to be completely transparent
that there are times where I might be repeating myself from one podcast to another. So bear
with us when we like to make a point. Sometimes we utilize things we've already referenced
and I'm right alongside you on that one too. Thank goodness. All right. Bye for now. All

(39:58):
right. Take care. Have a great day. Bye bye.