March 9, 2025 • 50 mins
What does it take to shatter glass ceilings in politics, and redefine what was possible for women in leadership? How can one woman’s legacy continue to inspire change across generations, from championing women’s rights to transforming international relations? We are going to answer these questions and more when we have a conversation with the author of the book *A Woman of Firsts: Margaret Heckler, Political Trailblazer.
The forthcoming dialogue delves into the profound and transformative legacy of Margaret Heckler, an exemplary figure whose career serves as a beacon for women aspiring to leadership roles within the political arena. We shall examine the multifaceted challenges she encountered as a pioneering woman in a predominantly male sphere and how her groundbreaking initiatives, particularly in the realms of women's rights and international diplomacy, continue to resonate through generations.
Our esteemed guest, Kimberly Heckler, author of *A Woman of Firsts: Margaret Heckler, Political Trailblazer*, will share her extensive research and personal reflections on Margaret's life, illuminating the resilience and compassion that defined her endeavors. Together, we will explore how Margaret's indomitable spirit not only shattered glass ceilings but also established new paradigms for future leaders. Join us for an enlightening conversation that underscores the enduring impact of Margaret Heckler's contributions to society and the imperative for continued advocacy in the pursuit of equality.
The discourse revolves around the indelible impact of Margaret Heckler, a formidable trailblazer in the political arena, whose life and legacy serve as a beacon of inspiration for aspiring leaders, particularly women. Host Michael Herst engages in a profound dialogue with Kimberly Heckler, the author and daughter-in-law of Margaret Heckler, who spent over a decade meticulously chronicling her mother-in-law's remarkable journey. The episode delves into the numerous adversities that Margaret faced as a pioneering woman in a predominantly male political environment, shedding light on her groundbreaking work in Congress and her tenure as U.S. Ambassador to Ireland. Through Kimberly's insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the resilience, compassion, and tenacity that defined Margaret's character and leadership style. The conversation emphasizes the importance of solidarity among women and highlights Margaret's significant contributions to women's rights, public health, and international diplomacy, reinforcing the idea that one individual's legacy can catalyze transformative change across generations.
Takeaways:
- This episode explores the life and achievements of Margaret Heckler, a trailblazer in women's political leadership.
- Kimberly Heckler shares her decade-long journey in writing Margaret's biography and uncovering her legacy.
- Margaret Heckler faced numerous challenges as a woman in a male-dominated political environment, yet she broke significant barriers.
- The discussion highlights how Margaret's work led to pivotal changes in women's rights, particularly in banking and credit access.
- Listeners will gain insight into Margaret's contributions to public health during the AIDS epidemic and her compassionate leadership style.
- The episode encourages women today to pursue their ambitions and reminds us that barriers can be overcome with determination.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey, one more Thing before yougo. What does it take to shatter
glass ceilings in politics andredefine what's possible for women
in leadership? How can onewoman's legacy continue to inspire
change across generations?From champion women's rights to transforming
international relations? We'regoing to answer these questions and
more when we have aconversation with the author of the
(00:22):
book, A Woman of First,Margaret Hecker, political trailblazer.
I'm your host, Michael Hurst.Welcome to One More Thing before
you go. Our guest in thisepisode is Kimberly Heckler. She's
(00:44):
a writer and a daughter in lawof Margaret Heckler. She's a member
of the Authors Guild in theLibrary of Congress Women's History
and Gender Studies group.She's a native Washingtonian. I hope
I said that right. Whosepassion for reading and writing is
taking her on a journey ofdiscovery. She's devoted more than
10 years to the creation ofMargaret's biography. Today, she's
(01:06):
going to share her personaljourney of discovering Margaret's
extraordinary legacy. From hergroundbreaking achievements in Congress
to her pivotal role as a USAmbassador to Ireland. We'll explore
the behind the scenes world ofpolitics, the challenges Margaret
faced as trailblazing woman ina male dominated sphere, and the
lasting impact of her work onwomen's rights, public health and
(01:28):
the international diplomacy.It's an inspiring conversation about
resilience, compassion and thepower of breaking barriers. Kimberly,
welcome to the show.
Thank you very much, Michael.Glad to be here.
It's amazing what you've beenable to achieve with this book. I
think that you have createdsome opportunities for people to
(01:51):
be motivated, especially womento be motivated, inspired that they
can achieve what they want toachieve in life.
Well, absolutely. And that'sprobably why I was so inspired to
write the book about MargaretHeckler. She was my mother in law.
She passed away in 2018. Andas a woman of firsts, it took me
(02:15):
35 years to observe her. Andof course, around Sunday night dinner
tables and conversations withMargaret, the stories that kept coming
out were they got to beoverwhelming in their number and
outlandish in the experiencesthat I thought, boy, this almost
(02:37):
appears to be more than oneperson that lived a life that she
did. And yet she was givenaway at birth by Irish immigrant
parents that came throughEllis island during the Great Depression.
So that's what really when Iheard over and over these stories
(02:58):
about how this happened to herin New York City and how she was
able to reach the corridors ofpower, I felt like, okay, enough
is enough. It's time to startTaping her and doing interviews of
head of states and, andcongressmen and congresswomen, chief
of staffs and attorneygenerals, what have you. And so I
(03:22):
accomplished 130 interviewswith people from all walks of life
to finish the book.
You know, that's amazingbecause I think that, you know, we
don't always have theopportunity to be able to document
history firsthand and documenthistory from the mouths of the people
that lived it and moved it. Sowhat an impressive opportunity for
(03:42):
you to be able to documentsuch a. A career and in a very, in
a significant impact, who hada significant impact, especially
on women and women's rightsand so many more things that go along
with this. But. So, yeah, Ican't wait to delve into this a little
bit more. Let's talk about youa little bit. Let's do where it all
(04:04):
began. Where'd you grow up?
Well, I grew up in Maryland,probably about 30 minutes outside
of Washington, and married myhusband, who was from Virginia. And
I have always been a lover ofwriting and have been a writer. But
when this project came beforeme, I have to say that I was impressed
(04:31):
to do. Felt like it was inline for something that I knew was
a story that was untold. And.And she was, in fact, an American
hero. And in a world desperatefor heroes, this is a story that
not only women, but veterans,minorities, the dying, she touched
(04:57):
almost every area of people'slives that have been somewhat forgotten
with history. And so in, inthe times that we are here now, we
do need the encouragement andinspiration of strong women and by
the way, feminine women likeMargaret Heckler.
(05:21):
And I agree with that. I thinkthat we need to, especially in today's
political environment, today'senvironment, society wise, it is
unfortunately backtracking alittle bit, I think. And I. And so,
yeah, and it's an importantmessage, I think, that's coming through.
(05:41):
When you grow up, do you havebrothers, sisters? What'd you want
to be when you grow up? I knowthat you're an author now, but what'd
you want to be when you grew up?
Oh, boy, I probably wanted todo a lot of things. I remember specifically
thinking that I wanted to be aphysical therapist. And my father
said, well, why don't you goto a hospital and see if, you know,
(06:04):
meet with a physicaltherapist? I took the elevator up.
I saw a man in his robe, in awheelchair. I got back to the elevator,
pushed down and said to my dadat dinner later that night, I am
not going to be working in ahospital or as a physical therapist.
So for me, I am a peopleperson. I love people. And that's
(06:25):
why this project has beenoverwhelmingly enjoyable for me because
I get to speak to people allthe time, be it with someone like
you, on the radio, ontelevision, more interviewing, and
a lots of exciting speakingengagements. So this has been a blessing
for me beyond wonder.
(06:46):
Did you, did you go touniversity? I know you said you want
to be a physical therapist.Did you? Let me ask a question this
way. Did you go to university?Did you have aspirations to be anything
other than an author at the moment?
I did go to university. I wentto quite a few different colleges,
(07:07):
starting at Columbia UnionCollege in Washington D.C. and then
took a year and went to schoolover outside of London in Bracknell,
Berkshire County, NewboldCollege, and then returned back to
the States and finished outwith a business degree at Pacific
(07:28):
Union College in Angwin,California, Napa Valley. So when
I, when I got back toWashington D.C. where my family was
from, and married my husbandJohn, not long after that, it was
then that I married into apolitical family and my father was
(07:50):
very much into politicshimself, so it was not new to me.
And when I met MargaretHeckler, I felt that I was in the
presence of greatness. Andthat's, I'll never forget when I
first met her. My husband hadtold me that she was at that point
in her career the ambassadorto Ireland. But she was flying back
(08:12):
to have her official portportrait hanging, a 10 foot high
portrait in the HHS buildingof the Health and Human Services,
downtown Washington D.C. wouldI like to meet her? And at that point
when I met Margaret, Irealized that she was set apart.
(08:32):
And not only was she a woman,she was a woman in a man's world.
And she was at the top of hergame and an inspiration for all women.
So I'm assuming that's whatkind of inspired you to write the
(08:52):
book. Had you ever thoughtthat you wanted to be an author prior
to this development, thatyou've learned so much about her
and that you wanted todocument it? Had you always aspired
to be an author?
Had not. I really feel that Iwas led to do it. I was a realtor
as well. But my passion istruly in uncovering, doing the research
(09:20):
and writing about MargaretHeckler. She was so inspiring as
a woman and somewhat notnecessarily critical of me, but someone
that was there to empower me,even to become what I, you know,
(09:41):
as a realtor. She pushed meinto that. And then at the near the
end of her life, I told herthat I was going to write her story.
She thought she was stillgoing to write her own story, but
she got on board with mewriting this. And truly, Michael,
one thing led to the other. Itwas a matter of me delving in and
(10:05):
being responsible for about100 local boxes of hers in a store
area in Arlington, Virginia.And I was the one in the family that
took time during the week torip open those boxes that had been
her congressional boxes, theone that the. Not the 250 boxes that
are up at Boston College thatare part of her papers there, but
(10:28):
they're the ones that wereleft behind. And as I opened up those
boxes, I was really trying tojust clean up and throw things out.
And it was really then that Ithought, this is a treasure trove
of information. And it lookslike I am the one that's going to
(10:49):
have the honor to write thestory of the former congresswoman,
HHS Cabinet Secretary andambassador to Ireland, the first
and only triple crown woman in politics.
I know that she, MargaretHeckler, broke many barriers in politics.
(11:11):
What do you think was her mostsignificant barrier? We, right before
we started this conversation,I had mentioned to you that my mother
appreciated some of her workbecause my mother is a single parent
and grew up in the 70s.Growing up in the 70s, she had struggles
with getting credit andgetting her own bank account, getting,
you know, know, even anapartment for us to live in and things
(11:34):
like that. Because she was awoman, you weren't allowed to do
certain things withoutsignatures from your. Your husband
or a father, kind of a. Kindof a thing. What. What do you think
was her most significant achievement?
There are so many. But I haveto say that the equal credit piece
is something that also. Iimpressed me. I remember also being
(12:02):
born in the mid-60s. My mothervery much was somewhat on allowance
from my father that she hadher pin money, if you will, and was
very carefully watched afterwhat she spent. And so the finances
were fully controlled by myfather. And when Margaret got into
(12:26):
Congress, you'll have tounderstand she was first a lawyer
back when only 1% of Americanwomen even pursued the law. But then
when she got to be acongresswoman and still couldn't
walk in a bank and get creditwith a husband who had a failing
(12:47):
business, she had to write thelaw in Congress. So, you know, that
that is, that, that ismonumental, not just for me, but
for all women to know, becausewomen do not know the story of the
trailblazers that came beforeher. You would have had to have been
in Congress to write the law.Otherwise the banking authorities
(13:09):
would not at all payattention. They said the same thing
to her. And she invited themajority of the bank CEOs to her
congressional office to say,you should be extending credit to
women. And the answer wasalways the same. Women do not pay
their bills. Women arehousewives. If women are in the workforce,
(13:31):
they'll get pregnant and thenthey'll leave and they won't be able
to pay their bills. So we arenot going to extend to women. After
these conversations, she knewthat she needed to work with the
37 men on the committee shewas on. It was the Banking and Currency
Committee at the time whereshe served. She was not the only
(13:55):
woman, Michael, which is sointeresting. There were 37 men that
she needed to convince. And asshe told it, it really wasn't their
fault that they didn'tunderstand why women like your mother
would have needed creditbecause they were married. They had
wives that had their creditcards. So when they left for work,
(14:16):
their wives would go and usetheir credit card at the JCPenney's
or wherever she went. But inreality, single mothers, single women,
divorced women, even marriedwomen that wanted the right to be
able to go and buy things.They were the primary purchasers
(14:36):
in their homes, were strappedand dependent upon husbands and fathers.
And so she wrote the law, theEqual Credit opportunity Act of 1974.
It's been implemented and wasin 1975, which is making us right
(14:57):
now at the 50th anniversary ofwomen's right to credit in their
own name.
You know, it's almostunbelievable, unless you've lived
through it or had witnessed itfirsthand, to understand that women
didn't have that right until1975. And, you know, when you live
it like we did, watching ourmother, you know, my mother was a
(15:19):
widow, so watching our mothertry to struggle and raise three kids
up until that time period, wedidn't as kids. That was never told
to us. You know, it wasn'tsomething that was shared with us
that, well, you can't do thatas your mother, I can't do that.
It was a situation where shejust kind of plugged away and did
(15:40):
her thing. And until we pushedthrough it and were able to triumph
through it, basically get herkids raised, get them through high
school and beyond. But lookingback and really thinking about, wow,
my mom did all this as asingle mother raising three kids
(16:02):
and navigated those challengesand without that ability. And to
me, it's unbelievable thatthat even existed up until 1975.
You would think that it wouldhave been taken care of. I applaud
Margaret for taking care of itwhen she did and to implement it
when she did. But you wouldthink that why didn't somebody step
(16:23):
in here way beforehand?
Well, I'll tell you somethinginteresting about that. What I shared
about the 37 men on thecommittee, which Margaret got along
with very well. She loved men.It's because she went to an all men's
college. She was the onlywoman at Boston College Law School.
So she was called on just asmuch as these men were. Right. The
(16:43):
professors called on her justas much. She finished top six in
her class. And that's why whenshe ran for Congress and was surrounded
by men. Right. She was onlyone of 10 women in the House of Representatives.
So virtually no women werethere, if you can imagine, to the
point where when she was sworninto office, she heard two congressmen
as she was raising her handand they said, how did that secretary
(17:07):
get on the floor of the House?And so she's in the Banking Committee.
Right. She's a year and ahalf, almost two years in Congress.
She's joined the Banking andcurrency committee with 37 men. But,
Michael, there was a woman onthe committee, too, an older woman
and a widow. And the widow,the widow was named Lenore Sullivan,
(17:33):
who said, are you ready? I donot think women deserve the.
Right to credit in their ownname, unbelievably.
And Margaret said, how couldyou say that? How are you getting
by? And she said in front ofMargaret and 37 men, well, I've kept
(17:55):
my dead husband's roles aliveso she could use all of his credit
mechanisms. And she pulled theladder right up with her. And that
was not what Margaret Hecklerdid. She extended a hand to all women
in more ways than you can imagine.
Yeah, that was kind of reallyselfish of the individual to do at
(18:20):
least to even admit tosomething like that, saying, hey,
I did this and I was able todo this, but I'm not letting anybody
else do this.
I think she saw all the otherwomen. I think she saw her neighbors,
people that were notcongresswomen like her. I think she
saw women that were homepregnant and home with their aprons
(18:43):
on. I think she. She wasimpressed with the I Love Lucy show
and Leave it to Beaver, FatherKnows Best. They were all portraying
that family lifestyle that hada husband and a wife, and the husband
brought home the bacon. Imean, honestly, TV gave us.
(19:04):
Perpetuated it. Yeah.
Yes, exactly. So anyway, itwas Margaret entering a man's world
and being bold enough to say,hey, women need economic equality.
And she did it at every turnon every committee. And she was the
(19:24):
only woman in almost everycommittee in Congress, whether it
was Veterans Affairs, JointEconomic Banking and Currency. It
was her agriculture.
Unfortunately. And I'mgrateful for that from that perspective.
I'm sure there were a lot ofchallenges being a woman in a male
dominated political spheresuch as that. Because even in today,
(19:48):
when you watch these debatesthat are televised and they're televised
between. I'll probably get introuble for this statement. But you
see these old white men inhere and you see them challenging
like Okasha aoc Is it aoc?Yes, yes. Alexander Akasha, you see
(20:15):
them confronting women asstill in a very demeaning. It irritates
me. Trust me, trust me. I havetelling you earlier, I'm an advocate
for my daughters. I'm anadvocate for my wife, my sister,
because I grew up with asingle woman, a single parent. Not
a single woman. Right, Asingle parent. And I understood the
(20:36):
struggles from herperspective. I saw how she was treated.
I saw where she could only geta secretary job or a waitress job
or something that was notmainstream. You couldn't go up the
ladder, you couldn't be anexecutive, you couldn't move up the
ladder. So I watched this. SoI did my best to make sure that our
daughters never experiencedthat and to make sure they took every
(20:57):
opportunity that they had inorder to move forward. And I support
my wife in that aspect aswell. It is shameful when you see
what's happening even todaywhere you see those kind of confrontations
between the old whitewarriors. The old white, I don't
(21:17):
even call them warriors. Theold white establishment, old man
establishment. And thenchallenging any woman that's got
a voice sitting on that chair.And you know, it is frustrating and
it's irritating. How did shechallenge some of those within that
male dominated political sphere?
(21:40):
Well, it's kind of interestingbecause as you were talking, I was
thinking back to when sheearned her seat in Congress. Back
then, Michael, a lot of ourcongresswomen came in after their
husbands died, so they, theywere able to take their seats. But
(22:01):
for Margaret, she earned herown seat. And it was hard to do because
she represented Massachusettsand the Kennedys, of course, really
owned Massachusettspolitically. And so her husband said
to her, run as a Republican.And so she decided to leave the Democrats
(22:25):
to the Kennedys. And she wasrunning against Joseph Martin. Joseph
W. Martin was what you weresaying about the old white man. He
was a 42 year incumbent inother words, 42 years in Congress,
right. He had come in in 1923,so this was 1966 and Margaret is
(22:52):
running against him. And hewas speaker of the House twice and
Margaret ran against him. Hesaid, if you've beaten one woman,
you've beaten them all. And heabsolutely had no concern for little
35 year old, attractive,strawberry blonde, 5 foot 2, powerhouse,
(23:18):
full of energy. He's 82 yearsold and she beat him. And it was
that chapter in the book iscalled Giant Killer. She absolutely
slayed the giant. And fromthere on, I have to say, she was
empowered. She was empoweredto know when to use the velvet glove
(23:39):
and when to turn on the fire.And I can't stress enough that the
beauty of Margaret Heckler isthat the men listened to her because
she was not in fact, a brawlburning feminist, I would call her
a feminist, but she did it ina way that people were pulled into
her. She had a compassionatespirit because she was given away
(24:01):
at birth. So everything, everybattle, every fight, she did with
kindness, she did withintelligence. And she was a consensus
builder. She was aboutcollaboration. She didn't hit it
over the head of LenoreSullivan on the Banking committee,
nor the 37 men. She simply hadto work through it for an entire
(24:26):
year to get everyone on boardand then we got the rights. But it
did not come easy. And women,often in Congress would be the ones
standing in her way. They werethe queen bees, as I say in the book.
The 11 congresswomen, her and10 other were the 11 queen bees in
(24:48):
1967 that were bees of theirown hive. And it took a lot for them
to get there. And they weren'tnecessarily going to be coming together
in a group getting to knoweach other because they had a lot
on their plate and that wasit. But even Margaret started the
first women's caucus in theCongress, said to the Democrats and
(25:12):
Republicans, we must cometogether. We have issues that revolve
around just women. They'retesting for breast cancer on men
and male rats. Please let usput our party aside and let us come
together and discuss theissues that involve women, like women's
(25:34):
equality, like putting a womanon the Supreme Court, which Margaret
did with Ronald Reagan. Sheurged him to put the first woman
on the Supreme Court and hedid. So she was working behind the
scenes, whether it was lbj,Nixon, Ford, Cole Carter, and of
(25:55):
course Ronald Reagan. Wherevershe went, she said to the men, if
the women are qualified ingovernment positions, you need to
interview them as well. Andthey, and Nixon said, well, That's
a good idea. And she said,your entire mid management is men.
This needs to be changed. Andhe said, I'll get right on it. And
(26:19):
in fact, he hired thousands ofwomen during his administration,
in part because Margaret metwith him in the Oval Office with
three other congresswomen andurged him to make a change. And that
has just catapulted throughthe years with her putting women
(26:40):
up front and saying only ifthey are qualified. And it's the
same with credit. We are notasking for special privileges. We
just want to be consideredequal as men. We don't want to be
the same, merely equal ashuman beings.
And I think that in itself isa contribution to society as a whole.
(27:04):
Not just women, but men andwomen and kids growing up and being
able to understand thateverybody plays a part in society
and everybody can contributeto society in a very positive way.
So that, you know, what a.What a wonderful opportunity that
she presented, especially tothese. Was it five presidents you
(27:25):
named off?
Yes.
Yeah. Five differentpresidents that you named off, you
know, and to be able to workwith them, she obviously played a
pivotal role in public health.And yes, how did her leadership impact,
like the AIDS epidemic andother health initiatives and things
like that? I know you talkedabout the checking for breast cancer
(27:46):
in men and in rats, you know,because people don't even think about
that up until it was broughtforth that men can also get breast
cancer. And that is somethingthat needs to be addressed from that
perspective. But what wouldyou say she contributed more in addition
to that with the health.
(28:08):
So there were three majorinitiatives that she. She had to
deal with. When she came in asHHS secretary in 1983, she handled
the third largest budget inthe world at that point. The two
other larger budgets was theentire federal budget, the entire
(28:31):
budget of the Soviet Union,and then the budget that Margaret
was responsible for, Healthand Human services, which at that
point had Social Securityunder it, Medicaid, Medicare, the
cdc, NIH, and so on and soforth. So she had to handle anything
in the nation that had to dowith health. She said it was the
(28:53):
hardest job in Washington. Andindeed, I believe that it is. When
she came in and Ronald Reaganappointed her to that position, she
would be one of the firstwomen in his cabinet. And AIDS was
immediately on her watch. TheReagan administration was quiet over
(29:16):
the issue that there was apandemic quietly happening that was
fatal. If you got aids, youdied. And Margaret was very concerned
for the victims, how they weretreated and keeping our blood supply
safe. And so she made it thenumber one health issue in America.
(29:40):
There was hysteria going onfor sure in the country, and people
were not going to publicpools. Some of them weren't sending
their kids to school. Theystopped using water fountains. There
was an 800 hotline thatMargaret installed at HHS. People
(30:00):
were calling constantly, arewe going to do. What are we going
to do? We don't want to fly onplanes. So we have almost experienced
some similarity to that withthe COVID pandemic. And so this one,
though, was absolutely fatal.And to be a woman in charge of that
(30:21):
massive department with 350different departments under her and
145,000 employees, she had alot to take care of. But she made
it the number one healthissue, which meant that she was able
(30:42):
to go back to Ed Meese, whowas a counselor to the president
at that time in thepresidential cabinet requesting more
funding. And she would visitthe AIDS patients, touch their hands
and hug them when peoplethought that if you did that, you
would die. So she really,really risked a lot without even
(31:06):
knowing everything to put thecountry at ease. And then shortly
after that, it was brought toher attention by five black professors,
medical professors, that wererunning the medical black hospitals.
(31:28):
And they said that the federalgovernment was not giving them any
help. And so African Americansand all minorities were not understanding
why they were dying up toeight years earlier than Caucasians.
And it was because schoolslike Emory, you know, medical, they
got our money from the federalgovernment, but the predominantly
(31:52):
black medical schools werenot, and therefore blacks were dying
much earlier. And so whenMargaret talked to her undersecretary,
the answer was always thesame. This has been happening since
the beginning of recordkeeping. Don't open that can of worms.
And she said, as the Secretaryof health, I'm opening it wide open
(32:14):
because every American shouldhave the same length of life. So
she closed the gap of death byinstituting, through nih, a nine
volume set on why minoritieswere dying earlier and how we could
lessen that and give allAmericans the same length of life.
(32:36):
So it is that gap is clearclosing because of the heckler report.
That's very cool, actually.What a brilliant contribution to
society. You know, I grew upin that era as well, and understanding
it not only affected men, butaffected women as well and affected
(32:58):
families. And the situation isthat she was able to at least implement
some change and the change ina positive direction to be able to
help control us and get us towhere we are today. So you sound.
Margaret was an amazingcontribution to society as a whole.
(33:22):
She really Was. She justdidn't stop. I mean, her last thing
at HHS is hospice. They weretrying to get it to pass in the Congress
to have it be a benefit underMedicare, but it was not able to
come into the Reaganadministration. David Stockman, who
was head of Office ofManagement and Budget, said, we are
(33:43):
not going to fund this thing.I'm sorry. We have just changed the
whole program at hospitalswhere if you were deemed to be terminally
ill, the federal governmentwas sending you home to die. And
Margaret said, that is nothappening on my watch. And they said,
well, we're spending too muchon Medicare to leave the dying. Back
in the 80s, were able to stayin the hospitals for months. And
(34:07):
then when they died. Right.The sheet came over the bed. Right.
And then they removed the bed.But in the Reagan administration,
they said they really shouldgo home to their families, and this
should not be something pickedup by the federal government. And
Margaret said, absolutely not.Death with dignity. We will get Medicare.
(34:27):
We will get hospice under theMedicare benefit. And through her
staff, they wrote fromscratch, the first federalized hospice
program in America.
Yeah, that's amazing. And asan individual that has seen death
both personally andprofessionally in so many instances,
I think that death withdignity is a better way to go in
(34:51):
regard to losing someone andnot having the opportunity to spend
the time that you need tospend with them before they pass
and to give that memory,lasting memory. So, you know, that
in itself, that bill affectspeople from a deep personal perspective,
you know, not just well.
And then to know that thefederal government is going to help
(35:12):
you with that bill fromhospice, that it was before, when
hospice was just in 12 or 14places around the country. You know,
there were places that youwould pay out to take your loved
one if you could afford it.But to have it be under Medicare
as a benefit to all Americansthat are under Medicare. Now we're
(35:32):
talking right now, all of asudden, that is a substantial savings
as your loved one is dying.
Exactly, exactly. And, youknow, I. And I appreciate it. I say
from a personal perspective,in regard to experiencing that firsthand,
and it is a. It's an extremelyheartfelt opportunity to spend time
(35:57):
with your. With your lovedones before they leave. So. Yes.
Thank you. Thank you again,Margaret. I know we have another
little connection only becauseI have Irish great, great, great
grandparents, and she was anambassador to Ireland you mentioned
earlier in the conversation.And I know that she did some things
(36:18):
to revitalize the Irisheconomy. And. But what do you think?
What do you think her mostlasting Impression or contribution
to that role would be she wasan ambassador to Ireland. Was this,
forgive me for this. Was this,this was after her congressional
(36:38):
stint or was.
Was. It was 16 years inCongress to start, and then two and
a half years as HHS secretary.And her last stint was to be the
ambassador to Ireland. And itwas kind of interesting because actually
when Ronald Reagan waspresident and she was in the cabinet,
(36:59):
she encouraged him, you shouldvisit Ireland. And he said, well,
I will do that. And she said,very few presidents have gone over
there. So before he went, youcan imagine that the State Department
went to the residence that theIrish ambassador lives in and fully
outfitted it with new chintzcurtains and all new furniture and
(37:22):
beautiful new rugs and themost beautiful Irish art. And then
he came and visited. And itwasn't long after that that Margaret
was appointed to live in thatgreat mansion, Deerfield, that had
just been newly dug. So sheshows up in Deerfield in a, I think
about an 18,000 square footmansion that was designed after the
(37:45):
White House, a beautiful whitemansion in Phoenix park in Dublin.
And sure enough, the Irishgraduating from college, the Irish
students were leaving thecountry. There were no jobs in Ireland.
And this came to come to herattention. And she visited a lot
(38:07):
of the companies and to someof the CEOs and presidents of these
Irish corporations, she said,why are you turning away the Irish?
These are people that speakfive languages. I mean, when you're
in Ireland, you speak all theEuropean languages. They're highly
educated. And a lot of thesehiring partners said, we had no idea
(38:33):
that this was happening, thatwe actually were turning away our
own. And she said, pleasechange that immediately. But the
biggest thing that she did isencourage Irish American businesses
to come over and open shop inIreland. Boeing, for one, set up
over there. She definitely hada hand in Intel, Microsoft, Anheuser
(38:55):
Busch. These are all very,very big American companies that
she hosted, had parties fordinners, and it was amazing. Diplomacy,
act of diplomacy for her.Coming from Irish immigrant parents
and returning as the mostpowerful person in Ireland, as the
(39:21):
ambassador and to bring overbusinesses. Her own father had to
flee from the effects of thepotato famine. He came to America
because of no jobopportunities and doggone it, if
she wasn't going to bring themover. So she was not your regular
(39:42):
ambassador. She was busyaround the clock, working every day
and entertaining heads ofstate, kings, princes. It's just,
it's amazing who came to herhouse. She opened it up like a salon
where Seamus Henney and famouspoets and four star generals would
(40:04):
come. Sandra Day O'Connor, ofcourse, came and visited her. They
were very good friends. It wasa tremendous opportunity for her
to help Ireland economically.
It's coming from a individualfrom Irish immigrant Paris that gave
her away. I think that theachievement of being able to be the
(40:29):
ambassador to Ireland and openthose doors again for other individuals
and for American companies tocome in must have been like exhilarating
for her to be able to satisfythis must have been a contribution.
Her family struggles, what herparents had gone through and where
she achieved her height as anambassador in Ireland must have been
(40:55):
a very like a personal. Avictory for her in some form or another
because of where she had.
Come from, I'm guessingabsolutely the case. She fell in
love with the Irish people.And not only that, many of her father
and mother's relatives werethere. And so they got to come over
(41:17):
to the residence and theyinvited her for the first time in
her life. She was an onlychild that was given away at birth.
She went to weddings andchristenings and they were country
weddings where you walk downthe country road. And so she held
babies and just experiencedthe type of thing that she might
(41:39):
not have ever experienced hadshe not been in that role.
And what's interesting aboutthis is the fact that, do you remember
in history where there wereIrish slavery here in the United
States? And that they had adsin the newspaper. I've only learned
(41:59):
this from my own genealogy.They had to the newspaper that said
maids wanted or housekeeperswanted, Irish need not apply.
Well, her mother had that andI have that in my book. No Irish
need apply. Protestants only.So they even, they even were discriminatory
toward the Catholics. And thenhere was Margaret's mother, an upstairs
(42:24):
maid in New York City. AndMargaret becomes the ambassador to
Ireland with her own help.People that surrounded her with love
and really God. It truly is aGod inspired story of a woman that
that followed a directed path.And her most famous quote of all
(42:47):
is, I've always been in touchwith my destiny. She always knew
that there was more for her todo and she never stopped. And her
father that gave her awaynicknamed her the Great Peggy, which
is an Irish nickname forMargaret. And she said he projected
(43:07):
that name on me even though Ididn't get to see him often. He did
show up in her life from timeto time and he would call her the
Great Peggy. And she lived upto it.
That's amazing. What lessons,with that in mind, what lessons do
you think in her life andcareer are most relevant for women
(43:28):
in Politics today that wouldmake them their version of the great
Peggy.
I think it's no matter whereyou've come from, whether you had
a struggle as a child. Herswas fragile. She had a terrible wound
of abandonment. That no matterwhere you've come from, that you
(43:50):
in fact can fulfill your owndestiny. That there is a destiny
that waits for you. We allhave a legacy. Some people don't
think in the early parts oftheir life that there is a legacy
that will outlive them. And ifwe think about that, each step that
you take goes toward yourlegacy and your destiny in this world.
(44:18):
For Margaret, it happened tobe playing a piano as a young child.
It was like learning a secondlanguage. It made her smarter. It
was all girl Catholic school,school that she earned on scholarship
alone. She came from, youknow, a boarding house, no money.
It was becoming a lawyer andlooking into something that women
didn't do at that moment. Idon't know what made her aspire to
(44:42):
be it, except that she didbabysit at a judge's home that had
law books that she took down.And she said, I will one day become
a lawyer. And there just goingtoward her dreams as a lawyer. After
she finished top in her class,no law firm in Boston would hire
(45:04):
her. We will never hire afemale attorney. So she had to reach
deep within her to move to thenext step. And I think that's what
women need to do. We are stillwomen in a man's world. In a lot
of ways, women still havethose barriers. But I would say that
(45:28):
because of people likeMargaret Heckler, there's a lot few
barriers that they have towork with. And with the right mental
attitude, they can reallyaccomplish. Anyone can accomplish
whatever they want to if theyset their mind to it.
I agree with that. I thinkit's great advice in regard to anyone
(45:50):
that wants, especially womenwho want to move their lives forward
in a positive way and affectchange in society and how we view
women. Look, if mothers. Ilove my mother, obviously mothers
are important. Daughters areimportant, sisters are important.
And not only in thatenvironment. They're important to
(46:14):
society as a whole. And Ithink that, you know, opportunities
for individuals to be able togrow within society to their best
selves is what's needed intoday society and culture. And unfortunately,
I see. Unfortunately, I had toemphasize that I see some backtracking
(46:34):
in certain areas that wereally need to kind of hopefully
overcome again. We'll see.We'll see. Anyway, talk about how
to get your book a Women of First.
Yes, thank you so the book hasjust been has just come out two weeks
ago, February 18th, and it'scertainly available on Amazon or
(46:57):
Barnes and Noble. And I thinkit is an inspiring story, an encouraging
story. At a time where we aredesperate for heroes, here is someone
that we can learn from that'llhelp us catapult our own lives. Someone
that faced major obstacles butpersevered, someone that had a disposition
(47:19):
of the heart and one thatrecognized the inherent dignity and
moral equality of all people.
And you can find that also onyour website.
Yes, @kimberlyhechler.com andI'll make sure that's.
All in the show notes so thatpeople have an easy way to like click
on it and go right to it. Youcan also be found on Instagram and
(47:42):
I think LinkedIn andInstagram. You can see here on the
screen, Kim Heckler, IMHeckler. So obviously we'll hope
people can come and visitthere as well. This has been an amazing
opportunity for us to get toknow you a little better.
It's so thank you, Michael.
Thank you for being on theshow and thank you for sharing your
(48:04):
journey. I'm happy that youwere able to bring this individual,
this amazing individual, letme correct myself, who contributed
to the well being of women allover the world, not just here. I
make sure my daughters get toknow this a little bit better. And
(48:24):
you know, and my wife as wellis looking forward to this conversation
that we're having right now.So thank you for being here.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me. It was a real pleasure.
This is one more thing beforeyou go. So before we go, one last
question. If Margaret werealive today, what advice do you think
(48:45):
she would give to the nextgeneration of leaders, especially
women leaders?
I think she would say don'tconcentrate on what you think is
pulling you down. Just keepmoving forward. And remember that
(49:06):
women have a special place insociety that only they can fill.
Whether they want to be athome or they want to work out professionally,
they have a responsibility totheir family first and to community
and to the professional world.But the femininity that a woman gives
(49:31):
to the world is very uniqueand she was a very big proponent
of that. So she would just sayonward and upwards.
Onward and upwards is a great,great words of wisdom, are great
words of wisdom. So again,Kimberly, thank you very much for
being on the show. I reallyappreciate you. I will make sure
that everything's in the shownotes for people to access your book
(49:55):
and to get to where they needto be.
Thank you very much, Michael.
One more thing before you allgo. Be sure to like subscribe and
follow. You'll find everythingin the show notes. As I just said,
looking forward to the nextconversation. In the meantime, have
a great day, have a greatweek, and thank you for being part
of the One More Thing BeforeWe Go community.
(50:16):
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of One More Thing before
youe Go. Check out our websiteat before you Go podcast. Com. You
can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
Hey, one more Thing before yougo. What does it take to shatter
glass ceilings in politics andredefine what's possible for women
in leadership? How can onewoman's legacy continue to inspire
change across generations?From champion women's rights to transforming
international relations? We'regoing to answer these questions and
more when we have aconversation with the author of the
(00:22):
book, A Woman of First,Margaret Hecker, political trailblazer.
I'm your host, Michael Hurst.Welcome to One More Thing before
you go. Our guest in thisepisode is Kimberly Heckler. She's
(00:44):
a writer and a daughter in lawof Margaret Heckler. She's a member
of the Authors Guild in theLibrary of Congress Women's History
and Gender Studies group.She's a native Washingtonian. I hope
I said that right. Whosepassion for reading and writing is
taking her on a journey ofdiscovery. She's devoted more than
10 years to the creation ofMargaret's biography. Today, she's
(01:06):
going to share her personaljourney of discovering Margaret's
extraordinary legacy. From hergroundbreaking achievements in Congress
to her pivotal role as a USAmbassador to Ireland. We'll explore
the behind the scenes world ofpolitics, the challenges Margaret
faced as trailblazing woman ina male dominated sphere, and the
lasting impact of her work onwomen's rights, public health and
(01:28):
the international diplomacy.It's an inspiring conversation about
resilience, compassion and thepower of breaking barriers. Kimberly,
welcome to the show.
Thank you very much, Michael.Glad to be here.
It's amazing what you've beenable to achieve with this book. I
think that you have createdsome opportunities for people to
(01:51):
be motivated, especially womento be motivated, inspired that they
can achieve what they want toachieve in life.
Well, absolutely. And that'sprobably why I was so inspired to
write the book about MargaretHeckler. She was my mother in law.
She passed away in 2018. Andas a woman of firsts, it took me
(02:15):
35 years to observe her. Andof course, around Sunday night dinner
tables and conversations withMargaret, the stories that kept coming
out were they got to beoverwhelming in their number and
outlandish in the experiencesthat I thought, boy, this almost
(02:37):
appears to be more than oneperson that lived a life that she
did. And yet she was givenaway at birth by Irish immigrant
parents that came throughEllis island during the Great Depression.
So that's what really when Iheard over and over these stories
(02:58):
about how this happened to herin New York City and how she was
able to reach the corridors ofpower, I felt like, okay, enough
is enough. It's time to startTaping her and doing interviews of
head of states and, andcongressmen and congresswomen, chief
of staffs and attorneygenerals, what have you. And so I
(03:22):
accomplished 130 interviewswith people from all walks of life
to finish the book.
You know, that's amazingbecause I think that, you know, we
don't always have theopportunity to be able to document
history firsthand and documenthistory from the mouths of the people
that lived it and moved it. Sowhat an impressive opportunity for
(03:42):
you to be able to documentsuch a. A career and in a very, in
a significant impact, who hada significant impact, especially
on women and women's rightsand so many more things that go along
with this. But. So, yeah, Ican't wait to delve into this a little
bit more. Let's talk about youa little bit. Let's do where it all
(04:04):
began. Where'd you grow up?
Well, I grew up in Maryland,probably about 30 minutes outside
of Washington, and married myhusband, who was from Virginia. And
I have always been a lover ofwriting and have been a writer. But
when this project came beforeme, I have to say that I was impressed
(04:31):
to do. Felt like it was inline for something that I knew was
a story that was untold. And.And she was, in fact, an American
hero. And in a world desperatefor heroes, this is a story that
not only women, but veterans,minorities, the dying, she touched
(04:57):
almost every area of people'slives that have been somewhat forgotten
with history. And so in, inthe times that we are here now, we
do need the encouragement andinspiration of strong women and by
the way, feminine women likeMargaret Heckler.
(05:21):
And I agree with that. I thinkthat we need to, especially in today's
political environment, today'senvironment, society wise, it is
unfortunately backtracking alittle bit, I think. And I. And so,
yeah, and it's an importantmessage, I think, that's coming through.
(05:41):
When you grow up, do you havebrothers, sisters? What'd you want
to be when you grow up? I knowthat you're an author now, but what'd
you want to be when you grew up?
Oh, boy, I probably wanted todo a lot of things. I remember specifically
thinking that I wanted to be aphysical therapist. And my father
said, well, why don't you goto a hospital and see if, you know,
(06:04):
meet with a physicaltherapist? I took the elevator up.
I saw a man in his robe, in awheelchair. I got back to the elevator,
pushed down and said to my dadat dinner later that night, I am
not going to be working in ahospital or as a physical therapist.
So for me, I am a peopleperson. I love people. And that's
(06:25):
why this project has beenoverwhelmingly enjoyable for me because
I get to speak to people allthe time, be it with someone like
you, on the radio, ontelevision, more interviewing, and
a lots of exciting speakingengagements. So this has been a blessing
for me beyond wonder.
(06:46):
Did you, did you go touniversity? I know you said you want
to be a physical therapist.Did you? Let me ask a question this
way. Did you go to university?Did you have aspirations to be anything
other than an author at the moment?
I did go to university. I wentto quite a few different colleges,
(07:07):
starting at Columbia UnionCollege in Washington D.C. and then
took a year and went to schoolover outside of London in Bracknell,
Berkshire County, NewboldCollege, and then returned back to
the States and finished outwith a business degree at Pacific
(07:28):
Union College in Angwin,California, Napa Valley. So when
I, when I got back toWashington D.C. where my family was
from, and married my husbandJohn, not long after that, it was
then that I married into apolitical family and my father was
(07:50):
very much into politicshimself, so it was not new to me.
And when I met MargaretHeckler, I felt that I was in the
presence of greatness. Andthat's, I'll never forget when I
first met her. My husband hadtold me that she was at that point
in her career the ambassadorto Ireland. But she was flying back
(08:12):
to have her official portportrait hanging, a 10 foot high
portrait in the HHS buildingof the Health and Human Services,
downtown Washington D.C. wouldI like to meet her? And at that point
when I met Margaret, Irealized that she was set apart.
(08:32):
And not only was she a woman,she was a woman in a man's world.
And she was at the top of hergame and an inspiration for all women.
So I'm assuming that's whatkind of inspired you to write the
(08:52):
book. Had you ever thoughtthat you wanted to be an author prior
to this development, thatyou've learned so much about her
and that you wanted todocument it? Had you always aspired
to be an author?
Had not. I really feel that Iwas led to do it. I was a realtor
as well. But my passion istruly in uncovering, doing the research
(09:20):
and writing about MargaretHeckler. She was so inspiring as
a woman and somewhat notnecessarily critical of me, but someone
that was there to empower me,even to become what I, you know,
(09:41):
as a realtor. She pushed meinto that. And then at the near the
end of her life, I told herthat I was going to write her story.
She thought she was stillgoing to write her own story, but
she got on board with mewriting this. And truly, Michael,
one thing led to the other. Itwas a matter of me delving in and
(10:05):
being responsible for about100 local boxes of hers in a store
area in Arlington, Virginia.And I was the one in the family that
took time during the week torip open those boxes that had been
her congressional boxes, theone that the. Not the 250 boxes that
are up at Boston College thatare part of her papers there, but
(10:28):
they're the ones that wereleft behind. And as I opened up those
boxes, I was really trying tojust clean up and throw things out.
And it was really then that Ithought, this is a treasure trove
of information. And it lookslike I am the one that's going to
(10:49):
have the honor to write thestory of the former congresswoman,
HHS Cabinet Secretary andambassador to Ireland, the first
and only triple crown woman in politics.
I know that she, MargaretHeckler, broke many barriers in politics.
(11:11):
What do you think was her mostsignificant barrier? We, right before
we started this conversation,I had mentioned to you that my mother
appreciated some of her workbecause my mother is a single parent
and grew up in the 70s.Growing up in the 70s, she had struggles
with getting credit andgetting her own bank account, getting,
you know, know, even anapartment for us to live in and things
(11:34):
like that. Because she was awoman, you weren't allowed to do
certain things withoutsignatures from your. Your husband
or a father, kind of a. Kindof a thing. What. What do you think
was her most significant achievement?
There are so many. But I haveto say that the equal credit piece
is something that also. Iimpressed me. I remember also being
(12:02):
born in the mid-60s. My mothervery much was somewhat on allowance
from my father that she hadher pin money, if you will, and was
very carefully watched afterwhat she spent. And so the finances
were fully controlled by myfather. And when Margaret got into
(12:26):
Congress, you'll have tounderstand she was first a lawyer
back when only 1% of Americanwomen even pursued the law. But then
when she got to be acongresswoman and still couldn't
walk in a bank and get creditwith a husband who had a failing
(12:47):
business, she had to write thelaw in Congress. So, you know, that
that is, that, that ismonumental, not just for me, but
for all women to know, becausewomen do not know the story of the
trailblazers that came beforeher. You would have had to have been
in Congress to write the law.Otherwise the banking authorities
(13:09):
would not at all payattention. They said the same thing
to her. And she invited themajority of the bank CEOs to her
congressional office to say,you should be extending credit to
women. And the answer wasalways the same. Women do not pay
their bills. Women arehousewives. If women are in the workforce,
(13:31):
they'll get pregnant and thenthey'll leave and they won't be able
to pay their bills. So we arenot going to extend to women. After
these conversations, she knewthat she needed to work with the
37 men on the committee shewas on. It was the Banking and Currency
Committee at the time whereshe served. She was not the only
(13:55):
woman, Michael, which is sointeresting. There were 37 men that
she needed to convince. And asshe told it, it really wasn't their
fault that they didn'tunderstand why women like your mother
would have needed creditbecause they were married. They had
wives that had their creditcards. So when they left for work,
(14:16):
their wives would go and usetheir credit card at the JCPenney's
or wherever she went. But inreality, single mothers, single women,
divorced women, even marriedwomen that wanted the right to be
able to go and buy things.They were the primary purchasers
(14:36):
in their homes, were strappedand dependent upon husbands and fathers.
And so she wrote the law, theEqual Credit opportunity Act of 1974.
It's been implemented and wasin 1975, which is making us right
(14:57):
now at the 50th anniversary ofwomen's right to credit in their
own name.
You know, it's almostunbelievable, unless you've lived
through it or had witnessed itfirsthand, to understand that women
didn't have that right until1975. And, you know, when you live
it like we did, watching ourmother, you know, my mother was a
(15:19):
widow, so watching our mothertry to struggle and raise three kids
up until that time period, wedidn't as kids. That was never told
to us. You know, it wasn'tsomething that was shared with us
that, well, you can't do thatas your mother, I can't do that.
It was a situation where shejust kind of plugged away and did
(15:40):
her thing. And until we pushedthrough it and were able to triumph
through it, basically get herkids raised, get them through high
school and beyond. But lookingback and really thinking about, wow,
my mom did all this as asingle mother raising three kids
(16:02):
and navigated those challengesand without that ability. And to
me, it's unbelievable thatthat even existed up until 1975.
You would think that it wouldhave been taken care of. I applaud
Margaret for taking care of itwhen she did and to implement it
when she did. But you wouldthink that why didn't somebody step
(16:23):
in here way beforehand?
Well, I'll tell you somethinginteresting about that. What I shared
about the 37 men on thecommittee, which Margaret got along
with very well. She loved men.It's because she went to an all men's
college. She was the onlywoman at Boston College Law School.
So she was called on just asmuch as these men were. Right. The
(16:43):
professors called on her justas much. She finished top six in
her class. And that's why whenshe ran for Congress and was surrounded
by men. Right. She was onlyone of 10 women in the House of Representatives.
So virtually no women werethere, if you can imagine, to the
point where when she was sworninto office, she heard two congressmen
as she was raising her handand they said, how did that secretary
(17:07):
get on the floor of the House?And so she's in the Banking Committee.
Right. She's a year and ahalf, almost two years in Congress.
She's joined the Banking andcurrency committee with 37 men. But,
Michael, there was a woman onthe committee, too, an older woman
and a widow. And the widow,the widow was named Lenore Sullivan,
(17:33):
who said, are you ready? I donot think women deserve the.
Right to credit in their ownname, unbelievably.
And Margaret said, how couldyou say that? How are you getting
by? And she said in front ofMargaret and 37 men, well, I've kept
(17:55):
my dead husband's roles aliveso she could use all of his credit
mechanisms. And she pulled theladder right up with her. And that
was not what Margaret Hecklerdid. She extended a hand to all women
in more ways than you can imagine.
Yeah, that was kind of reallyselfish of the individual to do at
(18:20):
least to even admit tosomething like that, saying, hey,
I did this and I was able todo this, but I'm not letting anybody
else do this.
I think she saw all the otherwomen. I think she saw her neighbors,
people that were notcongresswomen like her. I think she
saw women that were homepregnant and home with their aprons
(18:43):
on. I think she. She wasimpressed with the I Love Lucy show
and Leave it to Beaver, FatherKnows Best. They were all portraying
that family lifestyle that hada husband and a wife, and the husband
brought home the bacon. Imean, honestly, TV gave us.
(19:04):
Perpetuated it. Yeah.
Yes, exactly. So anyway, itwas Margaret entering a man's world
and being bold enough to say,hey, women need economic equality.
And she did it at every turnon every committee. And she was the
(19:24):
only woman in almost everycommittee in Congress, whether it
was Veterans Affairs, JointEconomic Banking and Currency. It
was her agriculture.
Unfortunately. And I'mgrateful for that from that perspective.
I'm sure there were a lot ofchallenges being a woman in a male
dominated political spheresuch as that. Because even in today,
(19:48):
when you watch these debatesthat are televised and they're televised
between. I'll probably get introuble for this statement. But you
see these old white men inhere and you see them challenging
like Okasha aoc Is it aoc?Yes, yes. Alexander Akasha, you see
(20:15):
them confronting women asstill in a very demeaning. It irritates
me. Trust me, trust me. I havetelling you earlier, I'm an advocate
for my daughters. I'm anadvocate for my wife, my sister,
because I grew up with asingle woman, a single parent. Not
a single woman. Right, Asingle parent. And I understood the
(20:36):
struggles from herperspective. I saw how she was treated.
I saw where she could only geta secretary job or a waitress job
or something that was notmainstream. You couldn't go up the
ladder, you couldn't be anexecutive, you couldn't move up the
ladder. So I watched this. SoI did my best to make sure that our
daughters never experiencedthat and to make sure they took every
(20:57):
opportunity that they had inorder to move forward. And I support
my wife in that aspect aswell. It is shameful when you see
what's happening even todaywhere you see those kind of confrontations
between the old whitewarriors. The old white, I don't
(21:17):
even call them warriors. Theold white establishment, old man
establishment. And thenchallenging any woman that's got
a voice sitting on that chair.And you know, it is frustrating and
it's irritating. How did shechallenge some of those within that
male dominated political sphere?
(21:40):
Well, it's kind of interestingbecause as you were talking, I was
thinking back to when sheearned her seat in Congress. Back
then, Michael, a lot of ourcongresswomen came in after their
husbands died, so they, theywere able to take their seats. But
(22:01):
for Margaret, she earned herown seat. And it was hard to do because
she represented Massachusettsand the Kennedys, of course, really
owned Massachusettspolitically. And so her husband said
to her, run as a Republican.And so she decided to leave the Democrats
(22:25):
to the Kennedys. And she wasrunning against Joseph Martin. Joseph
W. Martin was what you weresaying about the old white man. He
was a 42 year incumbent inother words, 42 years in Congress,
right. He had come in in 1923,so this was 1966 and Margaret is
(22:52):
running against him. And hewas speaker of the House twice and
Margaret ran against him. Hesaid, if you've beaten one woman,
you've beaten them all. And heabsolutely had no concern for little
35 year old, attractive,strawberry blonde, 5 foot 2, powerhouse,
(23:18):
full of energy. He's 82 yearsold and she beat him. And it was
that chapter in the book iscalled Giant Killer. She absolutely
slayed the giant. And fromthere on, I have to say, she was
empowered. She was empoweredto know when to use the velvet glove
(23:39):
and when to turn on the fire.And I can't stress enough that the
beauty of Margaret Heckler isthat the men listened to her because
she was not in fact, a brawlburning feminist, I would call her
a feminist, but she did it ina way that people were pulled into
her. She had a compassionatespirit because she was given away
(24:01):
at birth. So everything, everybattle, every fight, she did with
kindness, she did withintelligence. And she was a consensus
builder. She was aboutcollaboration. She didn't hit it
over the head of LenoreSullivan on the Banking committee,
nor the 37 men. She simply hadto work through it for an entire
(24:26):
year to get everyone on boardand then we got the rights. But it
did not come easy. And women,often in Congress would be the ones
standing in her way. They werethe queen bees, as I say in the book.
The 11 congresswomen, her and10 other were the 11 queen bees in
(24:48):
1967 that were bees of theirown hive. And it took a lot for them
to get there. And they weren'tnecessarily going to be coming together
in a group getting to knoweach other because they had a lot
on their plate and that wasit. But even Margaret started the
first women's caucus in theCongress, said to the Democrats and
(25:12):
Republicans, we must cometogether. We have issues that revolve
around just women. They'retesting for breast cancer on men
and male rats. Please let usput our party aside and let us come
together and discuss theissues that involve women, like women's
(25:34):
equality, like putting a womanon the Supreme Court, which Margaret
did with Ronald Reagan. Sheurged him to put the first woman
on the Supreme Court and hedid. So she was working behind the
scenes, whether it was lbj,Nixon, Ford, Cole Carter, and of
(25:55):
course Ronald Reagan. Wherevershe went, she said to the men, if
the women are qualified ingovernment positions, you need to
interview them as well. Andthey, and Nixon said, well, That's
a good idea. And she said,your entire mid management is men.
This needs to be changed. Andhe said, I'll get right on it. And
(26:19):
in fact, he hired thousands ofwomen during his administration,
in part because Margaret metwith him in the Oval Office with
three other congresswomen andurged him to make a change. And that
has just catapulted throughthe years with her putting women
(26:40):
up front and saying only ifthey are qualified. And it's the
same with credit. We are notasking for special privileges. We
just want to be consideredequal as men. We don't want to be
the same, merely equal ashuman beings.
And I think that in itself isa contribution to society as a whole.
(27:04):
Not just women, but men andwomen and kids growing up and being
able to understand thateverybody plays a part in society
and everybody can contributeto society in a very positive way.
So that, you know, what a.What a wonderful opportunity that
she presented, especially tothese. Was it five presidents you
(27:25):
named off?
Yes.
Yeah. Five differentpresidents that you named off, you
know, and to be able to workwith them, she obviously played a
pivotal role in public health.And yes, how did her leadership impact,
like the AIDS epidemic andother health initiatives and things
like that? I know you talkedabout the checking for breast cancer
(27:46):
in men and in rats, you know,because people don't even think about
that up until it was broughtforth that men can also get breast
cancer. And that is somethingthat needs to be addressed from that
perspective. But what wouldyou say she contributed more in addition
to that with the health.
(28:08):
So there were three majorinitiatives that she. She had to
deal with. When she came in asHHS secretary in 1983, she handled
the third largest budget inthe world at that point. The two
other larger budgets was theentire federal budget, the entire
(28:31):
budget of the Soviet Union,and then the budget that Margaret
was responsible for, Healthand Human services, which at that
point had Social Securityunder it, Medicaid, Medicare, the
cdc, NIH, and so on and soforth. So she had to handle anything
in the nation that had to dowith health. She said it was the
(28:53):
hardest job in Washington. Andindeed, I believe that it is. When
she came in and Ronald Reaganappointed her to that position, she
would be one of the firstwomen in his cabinet. And AIDS was
immediately on her watch. TheReagan administration was quiet over
(29:16):
the issue that there was apandemic quietly happening that was
fatal. If you got aids, youdied. And Margaret was very concerned
for the victims, how they weretreated and keeping our blood supply
safe. And so she made it thenumber one health issue in America.
(29:40):
There was hysteria going onfor sure in the country, and people
were not going to publicpools. Some of them weren't sending
their kids to school. Theystopped using water fountains. There
was an 800 hotline thatMargaret installed at HHS. People
(30:00):
were calling constantly, arewe going to do. What are we going
to do? We don't want to fly onplanes. So we have almost experienced
some similarity to that withthe COVID pandemic. And so this one,
though, was absolutely fatal.And to be a woman in charge of that
(30:21):
massive department with 350different departments under her and
145,000 employees, she had alot to take care of. But she made
it the number one healthissue, which meant that she was able
(30:42):
to go back to Ed Meese, whowas a counselor to the president
at that time in thepresidential cabinet requesting more
funding. And she would visitthe AIDS patients, touch their hands
and hug them when peoplethought that if you did that, you
would die. So she really,really risked a lot without even
(31:06):
knowing everything to put thecountry at ease. And then shortly
after that, it was brought toher attention by five black professors,
medical professors, that wererunning the medical black hospitals.
(31:28):
And they said that the federalgovernment was not giving them any
help. And so African Americansand all minorities were not understanding
why they were dying up toeight years earlier than Caucasians.
And it was because schoolslike Emory, you know, medical, they
got our money from the federalgovernment, but the predominantly
(31:52):
black medical schools werenot, and therefore blacks were dying
much earlier. And so whenMargaret talked to her undersecretary,
the answer was always thesame. This has been happening since
the beginning of recordkeeping. Don't open that can of worms.
And she said, as the Secretaryof health, I'm opening it wide open
(32:14):
because every American shouldhave the same length of life. So
she closed the gap of death byinstituting, through nih, a nine
volume set on why minoritieswere dying earlier and how we could
lessen that and give allAmericans the same length of life.
(32:36):
So it is that gap is clearclosing because of the heckler report.
That's very cool, actually.What a brilliant contribution to
society. You know, I grew upin that era as well, and understanding
it not only affected men, butaffected women as well and affected
(32:58):
families. And the situation isthat she was able to at least implement
some change and the change ina positive direction to be able to
help control us and get us towhere we are today. So you sound.
Margaret was an amazingcontribution to society as a whole.
(33:22):
She really Was. She justdidn't stop. I mean, her last thing
at HHS is hospice. They weretrying to get it to pass in the Congress
to have it be a benefit underMedicare, but it was not able to
come into the Reaganadministration. David Stockman, who
was head of Office ofManagement and Budget, said, we are
(33:43):
not going to fund this thing.I'm sorry. We have just changed the
whole program at hospitalswhere if you were deemed to be terminally
ill, the federal governmentwas sending you home to die. And
Margaret said, that is nothappening on my watch. And they said,
well, we're spending too muchon Medicare to leave the dying. Back
in the 80s, were able to stayin the hospitals for months. And
(34:07):
then when they died. Right.The sheet came over the bed. Right.
And then they removed the bed.But in the Reagan administration,
they said they really shouldgo home to their families, and this
should not be something pickedup by the federal government. And
Margaret said, absolutely not.Death with dignity. We will get Medicare.
(34:27):
We will get hospice under theMedicare benefit. And through her
staff, they wrote fromscratch, the first federalized hospice
program in America.
Yeah, that's amazing. And asan individual that has seen death
both personally andprofessionally in so many instances,
I think that death withdignity is a better way to go in
(34:51):
regard to losing someone andnot having the opportunity to spend
the time that you need tospend with them before they pass
and to give that memory,lasting memory. So, you know, that
in itself, that bill affectspeople from a deep personal perspective,
you know, not just well.
And then to know that thefederal government is going to help
(35:12):
you with that bill fromhospice, that it was before, when
hospice was just in 12 or 14places around the country. You know,
there were places that youwould pay out to take your loved
one if you could afford it.But to have it be under Medicare
as a benefit to all Americansthat are under Medicare. Now we're
(35:32):
talking right now, all of asudden, that is a substantial savings
as your loved one is dying.
Exactly, exactly. And, youknow, I. And I appreciate it. I say
from a personal perspective,in regard to experiencing that firsthand,
and it is a. It's an extremelyheartfelt opportunity to spend time
(35:57):
with your. With your lovedones before they leave. So. Yes.
Thank you. Thank you again,Margaret. I know we have another
little connection only becauseI have Irish great, great, great
grandparents, and she was anambassador to Ireland you mentioned
earlier in the conversation.And I know that she did some things
(36:18):
to revitalize the Irisheconomy. And. But what do you think?
What do you think her mostlasting Impression or contribution
to that role would be she wasan ambassador to Ireland. Was this,
forgive me for this. Was this,this was after her congressional
(36:38):
stint or was.
Was. It was 16 years inCongress to start, and then two and
a half years as HHS secretary.And her last stint was to be the
ambassador to Ireland. And itwas kind of interesting because actually
when Ronald Reagan waspresident and she was in the cabinet,
(36:59):
she encouraged him, you shouldvisit Ireland. And he said, well,
I will do that. And she said,very few presidents have gone over
there. So before he went, youcan imagine that the State Department
went to the residence that theIrish ambassador lives in and fully
outfitted it with new chintzcurtains and all new furniture and
(37:22):
beautiful new rugs and themost beautiful Irish art. And then
he came and visited. And itwasn't long after that that Margaret
was appointed to live in thatgreat mansion, Deerfield, that had
just been newly dug. So sheshows up in Deerfield in a, I think
about an 18,000 square footmansion that was designed after the
(37:45):
White House, a beautiful whitemansion in Phoenix park in Dublin.
And sure enough, the Irishgraduating from college, the Irish
students were leaving thecountry. There were no jobs in Ireland.
And this came to come to herattention. And she visited a lot
(38:07):
of the companies and to someof the CEOs and presidents of these
Irish corporations, she said,why are you turning away the Irish?
These are people that speakfive languages. I mean, when you're
in Ireland, you speak all theEuropean languages. They're highly
educated. And a lot of thesehiring partners said, we had no idea
(38:33):
that this was happening, thatwe actually were turning away our
own. And she said, pleasechange that immediately. But the
biggest thing that she did isencourage Irish American businesses
to come over and open shop inIreland. Boeing, for one, set up
over there. She definitely hada hand in Intel, Microsoft, Anheuser
(38:55):
Busch. These are all very,very big American companies that
she hosted, had parties fordinners, and it was amazing. Diplomacy,
act of diplomacy for her.Coming from Irish immigrant parents
and returning as the mostpowerful person in Ireland, as the
(39:21):
ambassador and to bring overbusinesses. Her own father had to
flee from the effects of thepotato famine. He came to America
because of no jobopportunities and doggone it, if
she wasn't going to bring themover. So she was not your regular
(39:42):
ambassador. She was busyaround the clock, working every day
and entertaining heads ofstate, kings, princes. It's just,
it's amazing who came to herhouse. She opened it up like a salon
where Seamus Henney and famouspoets and four star generals would
(40:04):
come. Sandra Day O'Connor, ofcourse, came and visited her. They
were very good friends. It wasa tremendous opportunity for her
to help Ireland economically.
It's coming from a individualfrom Irish immigrant Paris that gave
her away. I think that theachievement of being able to be the
(40:29):
ambassador to Ireland and openthose doors again for other individuals
and for American companies tocome in must have been like exhilarating
for her to be able to satisfythis must have been a contribution.
Her family struggles, what herparents had gone through and where
she achieved her height as anambassador in Ireland must have been
(40:55):
a very like a personal. Avictory for her in some form or another
because of where she had.
Come from, I'm guessingabsolutely the case. She fell in
love with the Irish people.And not only that, many of her father
and mother's relatives werethere. And so they got to come over
(41:17):
to the residence and theyinvited her for the first time in
her life. She was an onlychild that was given away at birth.
She went to weddings andchristenings and they were country
weddings where you walk downthe country road. And so she held
babies and just experiencedthe type of thing that she might
(41:39):
not have ever experienced hadshe not been in that role.
And what's interesting aboutthis is the fact that, do you remember
in history where there wereIrish slavery here in the United
States? And that they had adsin the newspaper. I've only learned
(41:59):
this from my own genealogy.They had to the newspaper that said
maids wanted or housekeeperswanted, Irish need not apply.
Well, her mother had that andI have that in my book. No Irish
need apply. Protestants only.So they even, they even were discriminatory
toward the Catholics. And thenhere was Margaret's mother, an upstairs
(42:24):
maid in New York City. AndMargaret becomes the ambassador to
Ireland with her own help.People that surrounded her with love
and really God. It truly is aGod inspired story of a woman that
that followed a directed path.And her most famous quote of all
(42:47):
is, I've always been in touchwith my destiny. She always knew
that there was more for her todo and she never stopped. And her
father that gave her awaynicknamed her the Great Peggy, which
is an Irish nickname forMargaret. And she said he projected
(43:07):
that name on me even though Ididn't get to see him often. He did
show up in her life from timeto time and he would call her the
Great Peggy. And she lived upto it.
That's amazing. What lessons,with that in mind, what lessons do
you think in her life andcareer are most relevant for women
(43:28):
in Politics today that wouldmake them their version of the great
Peggy.
I think it's no matter whereyou've come from, whether you had
a struggle as a child. Herswas fragile. She had a terrible wound
of abandonment. That no matterwhere you've come from, that you
(43:50):
in fact can fulfill your owndestiny. That there is a destiny
that waits for you. We allhave a legacy. Some people don't
think in the early parts oftheir life that there is a legacy
that will outlive them. And ifwe think about that, each step that
you take goes toward yourlegacy and your destiny in this world.
(44:18):
For Margaret, it happened tobe playing a piano as a young child.
It was like learning a secondlanguage. It made her smarter. It
was all girl Catholic school,school that she earned on scholarship
alone. She came from, youknow, a boarding house, no money.
It was becoming a lawyer andlooking into something that women
didn't do at that moment. Idon't know what made her aspire to
(44:42):
be it, except that she didbabysit at a judge's home that had
law books that she took down.And she said, I will one day become
a lawyer. And there just goingtoward her dreams as a lawyer. After
she finished top in her class,no law firm in Boston would hire
(45:04):
her. We will never hire afemale attorney. So she had to reach
deep within her to move to thenext step. And I think that's what
women need to do. We are stillwomen in a man's world. In a lot
of ways, women still havethose barriers. But I would say that
(45:28):
because of people likeMargaret Heckler, there's a lot few
barriers that they have towork with. And with the right mental
attitude, they can reallyaccomplish. Anyone can accomplish
whatever they want to if theyset their mind to it.
I agree with that. I thinkit's great advice in regard to anyone
(45:50):
that wants, especially womenwho want to move their lives forward
in a positive way and affectchange in society and how we view
women. Look, if mothers. Ilove my mother, obviously mothers
are important. Daughters areimportant, sisters are important.
And not only in thatenvironment. They're important to
(46:14):
society as a whole. And Ithink that, you know, opportunities
for individuals to be able togrow within society to their best
selves is what's needed intoday society and culture. And unfortunately,
I see. Unfortunately, I had toemphasize that I see some backtracking
(46:34):
in certain areas that wereally need to kind of hopefully
overcome again. We'll see.We'll see. Anyway, talk about how
to get your book a Women of First.
Yes, thank you so the book hasjust been has just come out two weeks
ago, February 18th, and it'scertainly available on Amazon or
(46:57):
Barnes and Noble. And I thinkit is an inspiring story, an encouraging
story. At a time where we aredesperate for heroes, here is someone
that we can learn from that'llhelp us catapult our own lives. Someone
that faced major obstacles butpersevered, someone that had a disposition
(47:19):
of the heart and one thatrecognized the inherent dignity and
moral equality of all people.
And you can find that also onyour website.
Yes, @kimberlyhechler.com andI'll make sure that's.
All in the show notes so thatpeople have an easy way to like click
on it and go right to it. Youcan also be found on Instagram and
(47:42):
I think LinkedIn andInstagram. You can see here on the
screen, Kim Heckler, IMHeckler. So obviously we'll hope
people can come and visitthere as well. This has been an amazing
opportunity for us to get toknow you a little better.
It's so thank you, Michael.
Thank you for being on theshow and thank you for sharing your
(48:04):
journey. I'm happy that youwere able to bring this individual,
this amazing individual, letme correct myself, who contributed
to the well being of women allover the world, not just here. I
make sure my daughters get toknow this a little bit better. And
(48:24):
you know, and my wife as wellis looking forward to this conversation
that we're having right now.So thank you for being here.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me. It was a real pleasure.
This is one more thing beforeyou go. So before we go, one last
question. If Margaret werealive today, what advice do you think
(48:45):
she would give to the nextgeneration of leaders, especially
women leaders?
I think she would say don'tconcentrate on what you think is
pulling you down. Just keepmoving forward. And remember that
(49:06):
women have a special place insociety that only they can fill.
Whether they want to be athome or they want to work out professionally,
they have a responsibility totheir family first and to community
and to the professional world.But the femininity that a woman gives
(49:31):
to the world is very uniqueand she was a very big proponent
of that. So she would just sayonward and upwards.
Onward and upwards is a great,great words of wisdom, are great
words of wisdom. So again,Kimberly, thank you very much for
being on the show. I reallyappreciate you. I will make sure
that everything's in the shownotes for people to access your book
(49:55):
and to get to where they needto be.
Thank you very much, Michael.
One more thing before you allgo. Be sure to like subscribe and
follow. You'll find everythingin the show notes. As I just said,
looking forward to the nextconversation. In the meantime, have
a great day, have a greatweek, and thank you for being part
of the One More Thing BeforeWe Go community.
(50:16):
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of One More Thing before
youe Go. Check out our websiteat before you Go podcast. Com. You
can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
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