August 27, 2025 • 49 mins
“What if trauma didn’t define you—but dared you to rise?”“And what if healing didn’t begin with silence—but with fire? ”Trauma should not be perceived as a defining characteristic of one's identity; rather, it can serve as a catalyst that compels individuals to rise and reclaim their power."
In this enlightening episode of One More Thing Before You Go, I engage in a profound discussion with Donna Simmons, a survivor, author, and tenacious advocate for justice and healing. Donna's remarkable journey from abuse and exploitation to embodied healing and radical compassion is encapsulated in her memoir, *Ashes to Flame*, and her podcast, *The Last Generation*.
Through her courageous narrative, she not only articulates her truth but also ignites a movement for fellow survivors, encouraging them to break the cycle of trauma and embrace their healing journey. This dialogue transcends mere conversation; it represents a reckoning and a call to action for all who seek liberation from their past, illuminating the path toward a future characterized by empowerment and resilience.
If you are looking to reclaim your power, to start on the journey of healing as a survivor and you don’t know where to start. We have answers for you. Stay tuned I’m your host. Michael Herst welcome to one more thing before you go….
Takeaways:
- In this episode, Donna Simmons emphasizes that trauma does not dictate one's identity but can serve as a catalyst for personal growth and resilience.
- The conversation reveals that healing is a dynamic process that begins not in silence but in confronting one's pain with fervor and determination.
- Donna's advocacy against child marriage illustrates the importance of transforming personal adversity into societal change through legislative action.
- The narrative shared in this episode highlights the necessity of community support in the healing journey, allowing survivors to reclaim their narratives and find their voices.
- The discussion around intergenerational trauma underscores the profound impact of family history on individual experiences, and the importance of breaking these cycles for future generations.
- Finally, Donna's message is a powerful reminder that rewriting one's legacy involves actively choosing to transform pain into purpose, creating a brighter future for oneself and others.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey, one more thing before you go.
What if trauma didn't defineyou but dared you to rise?
What if healing didn't beginwith sinus but with fire?
In this week's episode, I haveone more thing before you go.
I sit down with Donna Simmons.
She's a survivor, an author,and a fierce advocate for justice
and for healing.
She's a native of Kentucky.
Donna helped lead the chargeto end legal child marriage in her
(00:24):
home state, transformingpolicy with the same courage she
used to transform her own life.
And we're going to talk aboutthat through her memoir, Ashes to
Flames.
In her podcast, the LastGeneration, Donna shares her journey
from abuse and exploitation toembodied healing and radical compassion.
She doesn't just speak truth,she ignites it.
Her voice is a catalyst forsurvivors, cycle breakers, and anyone
(00:47):
caring to believe in adifferent future.
This isn't just a conversationabout trauma.
It's a reckoning.
It's a remembering, a call torise from the ashes and reclaim your
power.
If you're looking to reclaimyour power to start on the journey
of healing as a survivor andyou don't know where to start, we're
going to have answers for you.
(01:08):
So stay tuned.
I'm your host, Michael Hurst.
Please, I glitched.
Stay tuned.
I'm your host, Michael Hurst.
Welcome to One more thingbefore you go.
(01:31):
Welcome to the show, Donna.
Thank you so much, Michael.
It's a pleasure to be a gueston your show.
You know, what an amazingjourney that your life has taken.
And there's got some ups andsome downs and some triumphs, a little
bit of tragedy.
I think that the triumphsoutweigh the tragedy at this point.
And I think that I applaud youfor what you bring to the world and
(01:55):
in the empowerment that yougive to individuals with regard to
the ability to say, hey, I'mnot alone.
And there is some hope.
So I appreciate you very much.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate that encouragement.
I like to start at the beginning.
So I know you grew up in Kentucky.
Yes, yes, I have lived herethe majority of my life.
(02:17):
I didn't live one place morethan two years growing up, but primarily
it has been around the stateof Kentucky.
Do you have any brothers, sisters?
I have a sister who is 10years older than me.
Yes.
And that's actually the reasonthat I moved to Louisville, which
is where I am now.
I moved here when I was 19 andI got out of a really abusive situation,
(02:38):
and my sister was living herewith her husband.
And so I came to Louisville tobe Closer to her.
Family is important, andfamily is important for support,
I think, in all aspects.
Well, today we're going totalk about a very sensitive subject,
so I appreciate your time indoing so because I know that this
goes deep and it goes way back.
(03:00):
So I appreciate it.
But if we can get a littlefoundation here so we can understand.
We're going to talk aboutchild marriage a little bit in here,
maybe a little more.
But what are some of theramifications of that?
Help us understand what childmarriage actually is and is defined
as?
Can.
Can we do that?
Yeah, absolutely.
(03:21):
So if we're looking at thelegal definition of child marriage,
that is a marriage that occurswhere at least one of the parties
is under the age of majority,which most states just identify as
the age of 18 and up.
So anything 17 and under wouldbe considered child marriage.
There's a couple of differentparameters around that though, and
(03:44):
each state handles it differently.
There's through parentalconsent, oftentimes 16 and 17 year
olds are able to get marriedif there's no law prohibiting that
in the state under the age of 16.
Most states require a judge toapprove that marriage and there's
(04:04):
more often than not apregnancy involved.
And that's what they call thepregnancy exception.
You know, in my opinion, it'sunfortunate that that has to.
That it has taken place andthen continues to take place in lot
of different states within theUnited States.
At the time that, that thishappened to you, was it pretty prevalent
(04:26):
in Kentucky?
It was.
And you know, of course at thetime I wasn't aware of how prevalent
it was.
My case was really unique inthe sense that I was a resident of
Kentucky when it happened.
My perpetrator was a residentof Indiana and I was taken to Tennessee.
(04:47):
So.
So I had three states involvedin this.
And you know, there was nointersection compact or anything
between the states thatprohibited a minor from being taken
to one in order to be married off.
And you know, these were allthings that we looked at when we
were addressing the legalityof it.
In my home state of Kentuckythat same year, I actually lobbied
(05:10):
in both Indiana and Tennesseeas well to achieve.
Legislative changes there,which is amazing because you would
think that taking a childacross state lines for something
that is illegal wouldobviously take a precedent in whether
or not you charge somebody orwhether or not you take action with
that.
To the best of your knowledge,you know, if there's child marriage
(05:32):
practice in other states, doyou know what other states might
be still unfortunately, withinthat realm?
Oh, absolutely.
So I can tell you that in theUS only 15 states right now ban child
marriage altogether.
And even in my home state ofKentucky, in Indiana and Tennessee,
you know, the other statesthat I lobbied in back in 2018, we
(05:55):
were able to get the age limitraised to 17.
We did away with the pregnancy exception.
We did away with parental consent.
There now has to be judgeinvolvement to determine if it's
a predatory situation, toassess the disparity in age.
But in those three states,it's still not entirely prohibited.
Again, only 15 states do banit altogether.
(06:18):
And when you consider the factthat since the year 2000, there have
been over 300,000 cases ofchild marriage in the U.S. it is
certainly a prevalent problemthat hides in the shadows.
That is, I mean, as a father,I have two young ladies.
That really kind of.
(06:40):
That angers me to a point andit upsets me to a point.
And I wish that there was morethat I could do about that.
So hopefully we can get somepeople kind of educated here and
maybe inspire them to takeaction in their own states.
How did you find yourself in amarriage at that young age?
And how old were you?
Yeah, so I was 16 when I wasmarried off to a man that was 31.
(07:04):
And, you know, the groomingfor that really started as a very
young child.
Grew up in a house where therewas a lot of abuse.
There was a lot ofgenerational trauma.
My mom had also been marriedoff at an extremely young age.
Actually, when she married mydad, he already had two boys from
his first marriage and hadbeen divorced.
(07:27):
He had already served for acouple of years in the Korean War
at that point.
And this is back in 1955, andshe had just completed the eighth
grade, like, she had an eighthgrade education and became a stepmother
to these two young little boysand a soldier's wife, you know.
And then, you know, shedefinitely had a lot of her own history
(07:49):
with her parents being abusive.
And between that, the lack ofeducation, the fact that, you know,
now she was.
Had all this responsibilityput on her at 13 years of age, she
ended up not being in a goodmentally healthy state.
And so by the time I was born,you know, I suffered a lot at the
(08:09):
hands of that, through thatand through, you know, her not taking
action.
When I disclosed other formsof abuse that occurred when I was
small, it really set me up tobe groomed.
And when I was 14, and this isright after my father passed away,
he died of lung cancer when Iwas 13.
(08:29):
And so when I was 14, youknow, given the abuse, given his
Death given, you know, metaking care of him for eight months
leading up to his death.
My mother ended up putting mein a behavioral health facility because
I was self harming, I wasacting out.
And also, probably more thananything, I was starting to stand
(08:51):
up to her when she wasattempting to abuse me physically.
And so when I went into thisbehavioral health facility in 1998
when I was 14, I met a mentalhealth technician there who was 29
and that is who I now refer toas my perpetrator because he groomed
me, he groomed my mom.
(09:13):
And flash forward a couple ofyears after my mom let me date him.
And I use that, you know, termvery loosely because there wasn't
anything dating about it.
It was predatory.
But she let me see him for twoyears before agreeing to sign me
over to marry him.
And you know, he paid her$1,000 for that as well.
(09:35):
So essentially she traffickedme to him.
And you know, in my story andthe story of so many others, we see
that through the legality ofchild marriage, it is perversely
hypocritical when it comes tolaws regarding consent and statutory
rape offenses.
You know, had him, had he notbeen granted a marriage license,
(09:57):
he could have been chargedwith statutory rape.
But when we allow predators tomarry children, we are literally
giving them a license tocontinue abusing that child.
And that's not just my story.
When I pulled the stats on thestate of Kentucky, we had a little
13 year old girl that wasmarried off to a 33 year old man
(10:19):
and she was pregnant.
And we had a 15 year old girlmarried off to a 52 year old man
who was also pregnant.
And I could go on and on.
You know, those are twoexamples of 11,000 cases of child
marriage that had occurred atthe time.
I pulled the data in 2018 and.
I think that, you know,especially as a father and a father
(10:40):
of two young ladies, it's kindof one of these things that I don't
quite understand thephilosophy by allowing a 13 year
old, a 12 year old, 13 yearold, 14 year old to be able to get
pregnant and get married,especially to an older man.
I think that there's a veryserious issue in regard to that.
(11:04):
But thank you for sharing.
I mean, that's honest and I'msure it was hard.
I imagine the way to beingplaced into a situation like that
at that young age, theintergenerational trauma along with
it.
And I'm sure you had otheratrocities that had kind of compounded
upon itself.
But yet your voice Todaycarries not just the truth, but it
(11:26):
carries strength.
Strength.
I think that you didn't justsurvive, you kind of transformed.
What was your turning point inthis journey, if I can ask?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I'll tell you, I've had afew of them.
You know, I definitely believethat healing isn't linear.
It's, you know, definitely ajourney that we go on and we take
(11:50):
all kinds of twists and turnsalong that way.
Really.
What was the catalyst for meleaving when I was 19 was that, you
know, I had gotten pregnantwhen I was 17 and gave birth to my
daughter when I was 18.
I had pretty much just turned18 as well.
And my birthday is actually atthe end of January and my oldest
(12:13):
daughter's birthday is thebeginning of March, if that tells
you, you know, how fresh teenI was.
And right after I turned 18,my perpetrator had me working at
a strip club.
So, you know, my credibilitywas shot, you know, and he definitely
had orchestrated things to,you know, make me look like, you
(12:34):
know, not a fit mother or whathave you.
And when I left him and thedivorce proceedings were occurring,
when the judge looked on paperat, you know, here I was again at
the time a 19 year old kid.
Basically, I had stoppedworking at that place, but I was
(12:55):
working for like 8 bucks anhour, 20 hours a week, you know,
no education, right.
My perpetrator had his degree,he had his bachelor's degree, was
going to start working on hismaster's degree and he had income
that was more sustainable atthat point.
And so the judge didn't takeinto account the age disparity.
(13:18):
He very much, you know, tookinto account what he said about me
working at a strip club and,you know, again, ruining my credibility.
And so he ended up giving myperpetrator custody of my daughter.
And it was so atrocious, soheartbreaking for me that, you know,
(13:38):
here I thought that I wasgoing to be able to take my daughter
with me.
You know, when I was lookingat apartments and stuff, it was one
of the things I was considering.
I had passed over one supercheap apartment because it had a
radiator out that was exposed.
And I was concerned that, youknow, it would get hot, she would
burn herself.
And so I opted for a littlebit more expensive apartment or whatever
(14:01):
at that time.
You know, these were thingsthat, of course, I'm planning, you
know, as I'm making my escape.
And to know that the best Icould ask for is visitation, which
he very much kept controlledand would try to antagonize me and
Try to intimidate me and such.
When that happened, I realizedthat so much of the silence that
(14:24):
I had to bear and so much ofthe shame that I carried, whether
it was from not gettingcustody of my.
Of my child, you know, or evenbeing married off at such a young
age, where all the abuse thatI had experienced, I had to get to
the point where I realizedthat that shame that was associated
(14:45):
with all of that wasn't mineto carry, and that I had the choice.
I could either live out andbecome a statistic the way that,
you know, so many childrenthat have been abused significantly
and endured significant traumaand exploitation have, or I could
take control of my narrative.
(15:06):
I could take control of mylife for the first time, and in doing
so, light the path for othersto recognize that they could do the
same.
And so that's what ended upinitially motivating me to start
speaking out.
And then, of course, once Istarted collecting data, because
I knew that would be reallyimportant in the fight to end child
(15:28):
marriage and, you know,address other laws that perpetuate
harm against children, once Istarted getting the data, I realized,
oh, my gosh, there's, like, noway that I will ever stop fighting,
because it is way tooprevalent, and people don't know
about it because there's somuch stigma, there's so much shame.
There's so much silence that'swrapped around all of it.
(15:50):
Which is why, I mean, theaverage age of disclosure for childhood
sexual abuse is 52.
I mean, by that time, peoplehave raised a family.
They've raised, you know,they're probably having their grandkids
over and such, and, you know,it's such a heavy weight to carry
for the majority of your life.
(16:11):
And I don't want mydescendants to have to live a life
where they have to spend, youknow, the second half of it trying
to turn the first half around.
I empathize with you.
I'm sorry that you had to gothrough that.
How did.
How did growing up in Kentuckyshape your understanding of trauma
and justice, for that matter?
(16:32):
Because it seems to me that,you know, that's got to have a lasting
effect coming from a guy thatI spent a good portion of my life
fighting for justice as apolice officer arresting people.
I believe in the justicesystem, but I also see that there
are some cracks in the justicesystem and that there are some holes
(16:56):
and loopholes that peoplesqueeze through in the justice system.
How did growing up in Kentuckyshape your understanding of trauma
and justice in general?
If I can ask?
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
And it's really important,too, because I grew up in various
areas of rural Kentucky, andthat's vastly different than where
(17:20):
I live now.
I live in Louisville now.
You know, it's a muchdifferent atmosphere, much different
demographics, but, you know,going from different place to different
place and more rural Kentucky,I didn't have a lot of visibility
into what rights I even had asa kid.
Right.
Because, you know, when you'rea kid, you're just looking to your
(17:41):
parents to guide you and totell you what's right from wrong.
One of the things that Iappreciate about the systems that
we have here in Louisville,and, you know, this is having a younger
daughter that I raised upthree through the school system,
who actually just turned 18and is getting ready to go off to
college.
But we actually spend timefocusing on educating kids about
(18:04):
what their rights to their ownsafety is and who to go to.
Yeah.
You know, how to disclose ifthose safety parameters have been
violated.
And I think that that'ssomething that's really important
for us to recognize.
Recognize.
I think the other thing thatbelongs in that part of the conversation,
too, is that there's so muchintersectionality between intergenerational
(18:29):
trauma and other harms, likepoverty, for example.
You know, now I will say ourcurrent governor has done a phenomenal
job of addressing barriers toeducation and addressing the poverty
that we've had here in Kentucky.
But, you know, years before,before, that has not always been
the case.
And as I was growing up, somany of the places I was in were
(18:53):
just poverty stricken andeducation wasn't prioritized.
And when you don't have thoseexamples, then you do.
It's easy to fall into thosecycles of abuse, if that's all you've
ever known, you know, and.
And also because the abuseitself has such a significant impact
on you and your own healthconditions, your own mental health
(19:17):
and such, if you don'.
Realize that you can gettreatment to that and that you can
break those cycles and thatthere are opportunities beyond that,
then that's what you carryforward in your lineage.
And, you know, that's one ofmy missions.
Yes, absolutely.
Breaking laws or not breakinglaws, but changing laws that should
(19:37):
be broken because, you know,they do allow the crimes to be perpetuated
against children.
But even more than that, it'sabout breaking the chains of these
generational curses that runthrough families.
Yeah, I think just learningabout intergenerational trauma in
(19:57):
that form just within the lastcouple of years.
And the more and more thatI've heard it.
The more and more I startrecognizing it and seeing what the
ramifications of thatintergenerational trauma does.
You know, my.
My mother and my grandmotherand my grandfather on my mother's
side, her whole family, theygrew up in rural West Virginia.
(20:20):
So I understand that poverty.
They all lived.
It was like nine kids and acouple aunt and uncle and their kids,
and they all lived in onehouse, you know, and I didn't learn
about this until, you know,she was like, 65, 60 and 69 years
old.
Between 65, 69 years old, shefinally started talking about all
(20:44):
of that and then thegenerational trauma that she went
through in regard to, which isstuff, you know, we as kids.
She obviously didn't want totalk to her kids about it until we
got older and old enough tounderstand a little better.
But it took her 60 years, 65years before she couldn't even bring
it up and talk about it.
(21:06):
Which I think.
I think if we can get the wordout and we get the opportunity out
that you have opportunity thatyou can step out of that intergenerational
trauma, you have thatopportunity, you have a choice that
you can get away from it andto move away from it and to heal
(21:28):
and to move forward.
And that's kind of what we'rehere for, you know, So I want to
honor their strength byexploring what, you know, I kind
of.
What came next.
I know trauma doesn't justhappen in a moment.
I know this personally, I knowthis professionally.
It echoes, you know, can youtake us into, like, an emotional
landscape of those early years?
What you said earlier, youmentioned the silence, that.
(21:52):
What did the silence feel like?
How did it shape the way yousaw yourself and the world around
you?
And.
And then I'm throwing a bunchof questions at you, and then how.
How did that help you step outof that?
Yeah, absolutely.
And these are great questions.
And, you know, one of thethings that I wanted to respond to
real fast, and I think it's agood segue into this next part.
(22:16):
And when we talk aboutintergenerational trauma and how
long people wait to talk aboutthose things.
I saw this quote the other daythat I thought, oh, my gosh, this
is so spot on.
And that is if you don'tconfront your demons, they end up
raising your children.
And that hit me hard becauseit's so true, you know, and granted,
(22:38):
maybe we don't like, you know,for me, as an example, with my younger
daughter, the one that justturned 18, you know, I certainly
know that she didn't gothrough anything like I did when
I was a kid.
I very much protected her from that.
You know, I was determined togive her the polar opposite experience,
and I did achieve that in alot of ways.
(22:59):
But there were other ways thatI wasn't really, you know, my best
self because I was still healing.
I think the part that is, youknow, good and commendable about
that experience, though, isthat we were able to talk about that.
And so she was able to be honest.
You know, if, like, my tonewas too harsh or I was overwhelmed
(23:20):
and I wasn't giving her theattention that she needed or what
have you, we could have thoseconversations, and it wasn't something
I would become offended by andthen, you know, end up, like, sending
her on a guilt trip forcommunicating about her own needs.
And that pretty much seguesinto the experience that I had when
I was a child, which was verydifferent than that.
(23:43):
You know, I was physicallybeaten if I made simple mistakes,
like dropping a carton of milkand, you know, it's spilling, you
know, if I didn't have my haira certain way, if I didn't fit into
my clothes a certain way.
My mother was very perfectionistic.
I understand now that she wasso consumed with how things looked
(24:07):
on the outside because it washer way of making up for all the
dysfunction on the inside.
And, you know, that'ssomething that stayed with me.
Even when I got out ofsituations, I had to portray myself
as, you know, having it all together.
Even when inside I was fallingapart, I had to portray myself as
(24:28):
having it all together.
And when I was a kid, I wasespecially easily targeted to be
groomed because of that,because I didn't feel safe vocalizing,
you know, what was upsettingto me or even trusting my own judgment.
When I was five and I hadexperienced childhood sexual abuse,
(24:52):
and I disclosed that to mymom, she had a really harsh reaction
to me, and I ended up beingblamed for it at 5.
And so that made me realizethat, you know, it wasn't safe to
communicate things.
And also, I internalized atthat point that anything bad that
happened, I was the cause of it.
(25:15):
So, you know, all these thingsgo into, you know, building this
character where I, like, havevery much carried into my life, into
my adulthood, this narrativethat I'll never be good enough.
And.
And, you know, my husband andI talk about this on the podcast
that we launched called theLast Generation about.
(25:37):
We talk about, you know,relational healing, right?
And how when you're wounded inrelationship with someone, which
more Often than not, startswith your parents.
You can't heal in isolation.
And that's what so many of usdo, because that's the only thing
that's ever felt safe.
But you have to be able tohave some type of trusting, loving,
(26:02):
supportive relationship, andit doesn't necessarily have to be
a significant other, butcertainly is helpful, you know, if
it is.
But still, to this day, asmuch healing as I've done, you know,
I still find myself insituations where, you know, if his
tone is a little too harsh or,you know, we have some situation
(26:22):
where I feel like, you know,his attention is going elsewhere
or what have you, I can getreally worked up over that emotionally.
And those, you know, thatinner narrative comes back that,
well, I'm not good enough andI'm being rejected and I'm going
to be left.
And I really have to bemindful of my healing path and being
(26:46):
open to having realconversations when that happens.
I think that, you know, thosekind of traumas shape your identity
and your relationships as youcome along.
And sometimes we have to learnto recognize that.
And once we recognize it, youknow, we.
We have to look on how tochange it and how to.
How to kind of mold it intosomething that's more positive.
(27:07):
I know it's difficult attimes, but you've done it.
You do it.
You do it.
You just said here that you.
You have communication.
I think communication is key.
You have to have communication.
If you lose communication inany situation, then it's more difficult
to get the.
Get the understanding back andthe compassion back and the humanity
back into that.
(27:29):
Absolutely.
And, you know, as far ascommunication goes as well, I think,
especially for a lot of traumasurvivors, we weren't modeled what
healthy communication looks like.
Right.
So a lot of times we have todiscover that either on our own or
by observing the way thatother people that, you know, seem
to be at peace.
Right.
Like, what works for them.
(27:49):
And of course, there's varioushealing modalities for that as well.
But communication even canlook so different for people, depending
on what their experience iswith it.
And sometimes, yeah, like yousaid, sometimes we just have to learn
to recognize whatcommunication actually is and then
start moving ourself in thatdirection and learning how to communicate.
(28:10):
Do you believe that there'ssuch a thing as an inherited pain
in generational cycles?
Oh, yes.
Yes, absolutely.
How do you think we can getout of that or at least recognize
it and then maybe take thesteps to start removing ourselves
from that?
Yeah, I think, for one thing,I think the Core is recognizing that
(28:33):
our worth extends be beyond that.
And that that inherited painthat we experience because of the
pain that our parents felt andthe pain our grandparents felt and
the situations that they wentthrough that contributed to that.
All of that doesn't have to beours to carry.
And we are worth peace.
We are worth good things inour life.
(28:54):
We're worth stability.
We are worth loving.
Inherently, by being humans onthis planet, we are worth all those
things.
I think a lot of times when wehave experienced, you know, especially
chronic emotional pain,chronic physical abuse, you know,
childhood sexual abuse, weinternalize our value as being nothing.
(29:17):
And we look for affection andaffirmation from sources that are
not good for us, that aretoxic, because that's all that we've
ever known.
And getting to the point,point that we realize that love and
value and trust and, you know,all of the things that we want to
(29:38):
achieve in life are not justmeant for others.
They are meant for us as well.
Then our accountability forseizing opportunities to bring that
into our lives, that's wherethat starts.
And I think a lot of timespeople get really caught up in thinking
that things are out of reachfor them.
And I understand that thereare hurdles after hurdles between
(30:02):
where you are and where youwant to be.
But the key is never giving up.
No matter what the adversityis, no matter what the barriers are,
if one door will not open foryou, then you can find a cracked
window somewhere else.
And the point is to keep goingand keep looking for those opportunities
(30:27):
and looking for people thatbelieve in you as much as you need
to believe in yourself.
You know, that's.
It's.
It's powerful to hear howthose, you know, experiences deeply
shaped you and then how youcarry that truth into your work now.
And what you're saying, thewords that you're saying, obviously
have meaning in regard to.
(30:50):
We have a voice.
Yes, we have a community.
We just have to find our voiceand find our community.
And once we find both ofthose, it can allow us a healing
opportunity to be able to move forward.
And honestly, what's even moreremarkable is that you didn't stay
in that place.
You chose to speak.
And you do have a voice.
(31:12):
And you did it throughverbally, you did it in writing,
and you decided to fight,fight the system.
And I think you've madestrides in fighting the system.
Can we shift maybe a momentinto, like, awakening when you realize
your story could spark changenot just for you, but for others?
Kind of what lit that fire?
Because you've created a Podcast.
(31:32):
It's a conversation youcreated, you wrote the book, you
work with legislation.
I saw on your website there'sa nice message on there that talks
about how, you know, you madechange in the state and at least
in Kentucky and little areasaround from you.
So what lit that fire?
Yeah, that's a great question.
(31:55):
So my daughter, again, my 18year old back a few years ago, I
recognized that she wasgetting really involved in things
that spoke about women's rights.
Like, you know, she's eightyears old, she had to do her women's
history project and so shechose Malala.
(32:15):
And Malala, of course, youknow, fought for women's rights to
education in Afghanistan andsuffered horrible consequences because
of it, but she continued fighting.
And Willow, you know, my, mydaughter was incredibly inspired
by that story.
And I think it's also becauseof the candid conversations that
(32:35):
we had had about, you know,some early life struggles that I
had had as well.
And seeing that in her, seeingthat inspiration in her and, you
know, right down to going to aUnited nations event and taking her
with me and the person runningthe event asking her, oh, do you
want to get up and, you know,talk about your report or whatever.
(32:58):
And she did, totally impromptuto like, I thought this lady was
kidding, but no, they gave herlike five minutes, impromptu for,
you know, this little eightyear old girl to get up on the stage
and talk about why women'seducation is so important.
And so these were things I wasalready feeling this stirring, already
feeling like I had spent somuch of my life trying to turn myself
(33:21):
into the polar opposite thanwhat I had grown up with and what
my initial start intoindependence was going to be.
But I had such silence, youknow, I couldn't even answer a question
of, well, where did yougraduate high school without feeling
retraumatized and like I was worthless?
Because how do you tellsomeone, well, actually, I didn't
(33:43):
even complete 10th grade,right, because I had to get my GED
and then I had to put myselfthrough school, all while raising
a young kid.
So to be able to see that, youknow, I had obviously had some positive
influence on my kid for herto, you know, be as independent as
she was and, you know, anindependent thinker and really concerned
(34:06):
about humanitarianism.
And so at that point Irealized that I could start speaking
about the experiences that Ihad and hopefully start creating
change.
And I started reaching out toorganizations I knew were working
on issues of child marriage.
I really got angry, you know,thinking about everything that I
(34:29):
had gone through, reallyhaving that Realization that instead
of being handed a license tocontinue abusing me, my perpetrator
should have been roped up in apair of handcuffs.
But instead, the opposite happened.
And so, like, letting thatanger fuel me, not to be destructive,
but productive, that's wherethat transformation happened.
(34:53):
And then it was like, youknow, as happens, I think a lot of
times when you're on apositive spiritual path, it's like
all of a sudden all thesedoors just start opening, and you
have all these opportunitiesthat lead to other opportunities.
And so it was just a matter ofseizing all of those.
And, you know, I.
(35:14):
Again, you know, one of themost liberating things for me was
throwing the shame off andputting it back in the hands of the
predator.
And so, you know, through mywork, that's very much what I do
and what I reinforce forsurvivors and also fostering that
sense of community, becausesurvivors such as myself had to spend
so much time in isolation.
(35:36):
Having a community with eachother and having a community that
is focused on making thingsbetter for our descendants, that
is incredibly healing as well.
That's.
That's.
Yes, you have the right fire.
Speaking of fire, what.
What.
I mean, what inspired you towrite Ashes to Flame?
(35:58):
You mentioned earlier thatcongratulations on your ged.
You should be proud of that.
That's an accomplishment in itself.
You put yourself back through that.
You made the choice, yourconcerted choice, and that's a positive
thing.
You know, the high schoolsometimes overrated.
So you got it.
It works.
So what inspired you to writeAshes to Flame?
(36:20):
An advocate for legal reform.
Yeah, so I started advocatingback in 2018, 2016, really.
But I really got heavy,heavily involved in 2018, like, literally
traveling the country, stateby state, talking with legislators,
giving testimony beforelegislative bodies and such.
I'm giving tons of interviews.
(36:42):
I was in a documentary thatwas hosted by A E called I Was a
Child Bride, and my story isfeatured there as well.
And so after having thatexperience and, you know, while all
of that advocacy washappening, I was simultaneously doing
a lot of journaling.
And when I met my now husband,we've been together for about three
(37:04):
years, and I started havingthese kind of conversations with
him.
He's like, you gotta write a book.
And I'm like, well, you know,I've got about 10 years worth of
material already, so.
But that was one of his, youknow, big pieces of encouragement
as well as other people needto hear this.
You know, people need to hearthat they're not alone.
And people need to hear thatthey can take the worst pain Imaginable
(37:29):
and turn it into somethingthat is protective for other people.
That's how we start breakingthis generational cycles.
Very cool.
And the fact that you, youhave an individual that supports
you in that way, I'm happy for you.
That's, that's cool becauseit's always nice to have somebody
in your corner like that.
So very cool.
(37:49):
I'm sure that requiredstrength, especially to fight for
justice in the face of resistance.
You know, it's.
As you said, the laws don'theal people.
They protect, they prevent.
But healing is something thatgoes a little bit deeper.
And I know that you helped, wementioned it earlier, you had helped
with legal child marriage inKentucky and getting that law changed.
(38:12):
What they think is like, phenomenal.
Hopefully there'll be morethat follow.
Forgive me, I don't rememberif you said you also got it changed
in Tennessee and Tennessee as well.
Tennessee and Indiana.
And Indiana.
All three of them.
So, you know, outstanding.
I mean, an individual thatobviously fights.
(38:35):
I spent 17 years fighting forjustice, so I respect that and thank
you for taking those steps inorder to get that change put into
place.
Hopefully we can move itforward with every state that needs
to.
It's amazing.
It blows me away that inreality, what did you say there was
(39:02):
something like only 15 statesthat don't have it.
Yes.
Well, 15 states that outlawchild marriage across the board,
meaning, like age 18 and upis, you know, the only option.
Even in the states where, youknow, I was able to get some change,
(39:22):
we improved things.
Like in Kentucky, Indiana,Tennessee, we set the minimum age
through at 17, did away withparental consent, has to go before,
before a judge, you know, all this.
But it's still not that betterstate of age 18.
And the reason that thatpart's so important is because you
can't legally enter into a contract.
(39:44):
Yeah.
Until you're 18, meaning youcan't rent your own apartment.
You can't even file for yourown divorce.
Right.
You can't even consent to yourown child's medical care or your
own.
And so, you know, these areall harms and barriers to a minor
having protection if ithappens before they reach the age
(40:06):
of majority.
So that's why I do continue tofight, including still in Kentucky,
to get the minimum age phraseto 18.
So it's only legal adults thatare marrying.
Yeah, I agree with you.
I say as.
Look, I like I have to laughbecause my kids will tell you that
(40:28):
every time they were afraid tobring a guy home if they were going
to go out on a date because itwould be the, you know, the cop come
out of me.
And, you know, it's like,okay, I want this and I want you
not to do that and not do thisand be home by this time.
I love that.
Yeah, they kind of even hadfriends of mine and their godfather
(40:51):
actually, you know, would theybe on patrol and they'd see Caitlyn
out with a date or Nicole, and.
And they'd kind of get the carnext to the guy and just kind of
look, it's like, dad, can youplease tell Uncle John to stop doing
that?
I said, we're just trying toprotect you.
(41:11):
That's all.
We're just trying to protect you.
Just.
Just a little.
A little humor.
You move from surviving totruly living.
And I think that obviouslylaws alone.
I think we need a mindset.
Your journey from trauma topurpose is a roadmap for so many
people.
And through your podcast andyour writing and your advocacy, you
(41:35):
become a guide for others whoare still in the dark.
I've listened to your podcast.
I think it's a greatopportunity for individuals to understand
the.
They're not alone.
And that if they're goingthrough something, it doesn't necessarily
have to be exactly what youhave gone through.
What you've shown, at least inmy opinion, is that you give opportunity
(41:55):
for them to understand thatyou can rise from the ashes, you
can rise again, you canovercome, and that you can just.
You have to understand theconfidence and the community and
the resources that you havehave in order to do that.
In Ashes to Flame, you talkabout rewriting your legacy.
What does that mean for survivors?
(42:17):
And how.
How can we recognize it if weneed to go into that mode of survival?
Yeah.
So rewriting your legacy isbasically saying that you are going
to take control of your lifeand not have your.
Your parents and yourgrandparents experiences be left
(42:38):
out through you.
And that is how we break thosegenerational cycles of pain, and
that's how we end up plantingthose seeds.
And, you know, one of thethings that I love to equate it to
is, you know, when you plantseeds for a tree.
Right.
That tree may take years toreally take root and start bearing
(43:01):
fruit.
So there's a poem that talksabout planting seeds for a tree that
you will never receive theshade from.
You're not necessarily goingto get the great benefit from that
in your lifetime, but yourkids and their kids will.
It takes so much time forthings to heal, but if you take those
(43:23):
first steps, if you startchanging the way you treat yourself,
you're going to start changingthe way that you treat others people
for the better.
And if you start having thoseopen conversations with people and
really honoring any and allemotions that come up, using them
to be propellants of change,like anger.
(43:43):
You know, just as one example,we attach such a negative stigma
to the emotion of anger, butit can be one of the most powerful
emotions and clearing spacefor positive change.
And so when we start leaninginto that, that is really how we
start rewriting those legaciesand making things different, creating
(44:07):
a different landscape for ourchildren and grandchildren to be
able to seize.
And that's profound.
I think that we all have that opportunity.
I wish I could talk to you fora whole another hour.
We could, we could really divedeep into this, but unfortunately
we have to kind of close it alittle bit here.
(44:27):
But as we begin that close, Ialways say there's always one more
thing, right?
One more thing before we go.
So before we go, what wouldyou say to someone who's stuck in
silence?
You kind of just mentioned it.
But what would be the firststep to somebody who hasn't found,
found their flame like youfound and kind of not to be the last
(44:53):
generation, like your podcastsays, to make sure it doesn't go
past us to stop thatintergenerational trauma, to kind
of move forward.
Yeah.
So I think there comes a timein all of our lives where we ask
ourselves, what's our purpose?
Right.
What's our purpose in being onthis planet?
And, you know, what is it thatwe're going to do with our life,
(45:14):
however many years is left of that.
And I would say that forsomebody looking to find their purpose,
looking to really ignite theirown flame, you've got to lean into
your pain because your pain isso powerful.
And it can be what holds youback or it can be what sends you
soaring.
(45:35):
Lean into that pain, recognizeit, name it, seek help for it.
Find a community that's goingto support you in the process of
navigating it and watch howthat transforms and watch how that
becomes the purpose filledlife that you've been looking to
create.
(45:55):
Brilliant words of wisdom, Donna.
Let's tell everybody how theyget in touch with you.
You have a course, you havesome other resources, you have a
book and you have your podcastthat we just talked about.
How do we get in touch withyou and what can we find on your
website?
Yeah.
So folks can visit my websiteat traumatopurpose.com or email me
(46:17):
at donna traumatopurpose.comas far as getting in touch goes.
And then we do have somedigital course materials that are
self paced, one of which I'mextremely, extremely excited about.
We've recently launched it andwe've already had a lot of really
great feedback from folks thathave gone through it.
(46:38):
It's called the TrustBlueprint and it is on relational
healing.
So it talks about how tonavigate healing and relationships
and, you know, push throughtrust issues and such when you've
experienced betrayal before.
So, really excited for that.
And of course, course, my bookis Ashes to Flame, Transforming Trauma
(47:00):
into Purpose.
It is available, the ebook isavailable on my website, traumatopurpose.com
but then it's also on Amazonand hardback paperback copies as
well as audiobook.
I did narrate my ownaudiobook, so that's available on
Audible, which can be accessedthrough Amazon as well.
And then finally, the LastGeneration podcast.
(47:23):
That is a relatively newlaunch and we just launched it back
in June, and I record everyother week.
So we have about sevenepisodes out there right now.
And we really tackle theissues that a lot of people are afraid
to talk about.
And it is very much focused onhow we can be the best partners we
(47:43):
can be, how we can be the bestparents, and how to get real in our
healing journey.
So that podcast is certainly night.
And for anyone wanting tofocus on surface level, we do take
things very deep.
But that is how we become thelast generation of trauma.
So thank you.
That's amazing.
I'll make sure that all ofthat is in the show notes so that
(48:05):
they have an easy way toconnect with you and just by pressing
a button.
Great.
Thank you.
Yeah, Donna, thank you very much.
You know, you remind us thathealing isn't quiet, it's futile.
Trauma doesn't define us.
It dares us to rise.
And that rewriting your legacyisn't just possible, it's necessary.
(48:26):
Your story is a flame, onethat lights the path for others to
walk through darkness and in truth.
And a reminder to everyone inthe community, sometimes the most
powerful transformation beginswith just one more thing before you
go.
So thank you very much forsharing your journey, your experience,
your wisdom.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, Michael.
(48:46):
It's such a pleasure to be aguest on your show and I appreciate
all of your thoughtfulquestions and what a fierce advocate
you are as well.
Thank you very much.
I really appreciate you andwhat you do for the world.
Absolutely.
I appreciate you as well.
So that's a wrap for today's episode.
I hope you found inspiration,motivation, and a new perspective
to take with you.
If you enjoy thisconversation, be sure to like subscribe
(49:08):
and follow us.
It helps us to continuebringing incredible stories like
this one and insights like these.
And if you want to watch thisepisode, head over to YouTube, catch
the full video version.
We'd love to hear from you.
If you have questions, showideas, or think you make a great
guest, or if you have commentsabout this show, reach out Us Connect.
This show thrives because ofthis amazing community.
(49:29):
I appreciate each and everyone of you for being part of it.
And until next time, One MoreThing before you all go.
Have a great day.
Have an even better week andthank you for joining us.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of One more Thing before
you go.
Check out our website atbefore you go podcast.com you can
find us as well as subscribeto the program and rate us on your
(49:50):
favorite podcast listening platform.
Hey, one more thing before you go.
What if trauma didn't defineyou but dared you to rise?
What if healing didn't beginwith sinus but with fire?
In this week's episode, I haveone more thing before you go.
I sit down with Donna Simmons.
She's a survivor, an author,and a fierce advocate for justice
and for healing.
She's a native of Kentucky.
Donna helped lead the chargeto end legal child marriage in her
(00:24):
home state, transformingpolicy with the same courage she
used to transform her own life.
And we're going to talk aboutthat through her memoir, Ashes to
Flames.
In her podcast, the LastGeneration, Donna shares her journey
from abuse and exploitation toembodied healing and radical compassion.
She doesn't just speak truth,she ignites it.
Her voice is a catalyst forsurvivors, cycle breakers, and anyone
(00:47):
caring to believe in adifferent future.
This isn't just a conversationabout trauma.
It's a reckoning.
It's a remembering, a call torise from the ashes and reclaim your
power.
If you're looking to reclaimyour power to start on the journey
of healing as a survivor andyou don't know where to start, we're
going to have answers for you.
(01:08):
So stay tuned.
I'm your host, Michael Hurst.
Please, I glitched.
Stay tuned.
I'm your host, Michael Hurst.
Welcome to One more thingbefore you go.
(01:31):
Welcome to the show, Donna.
Thank you so much, Michael.
It's a pleasure to be a gueston your show.
You know, what an amazingjourney that your life has taken.
And there's got some ups andsome downs and some triumphs, a little
bit of tragedy.
I think that the triumphsoutweigh the tragedy at this point.
And I think that I applaud youfor what you bring to the world and
(01:55):
in the empowerment that yougive to individuals with regard to
the ability to say, hey, I'mnot alone.
And there is some hope.
So I appreciate you very much.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate that encouragement.
I like to start at the beginning.
So I know you grew up in Kentucky.
Yes, yes, I have lived herethe majority of my life.
(02:17):
I didn't live one place morethan two years growing up, but primarily
it has been around the stateof Kentucky.
Do you have any brothers, sisters?
I have a sister who is 10years older than me.
Yes.
And that's actually the reasonthat I moved to Louisville, which
is where I am now.
I moved here when I was 19 andI got out of a really abusive situation,
(02:38):
and my sister was living herewith her husband.
And so I came to Louisville tobe Closer to her.
Family is important, andfamily is important for support,
I think, in all aspects.
Well, today we're going totalk about a very sensitive subject,
so I appreciate your time indoing so because I know that this
goes deep and it goes way back.
(03:00):
So I appreciate it.
But if we can get a littlefoundation here so we can understand.
We're going to talk aboutchild marriage a little bit in here,
maybe a little more.
But what are some of theramifications of that?
Help us understand what childmarriage actually is and is defined
as?
Can.
Can we do that?
Yeah, absolutely.
(03:21):
So if we're looking at thelegal definition of child marriage,
that is a marriage that occurswhere at least one of the parties
is under the age of majority,which most states just identify as
the age of 18 and up.
So anything 17 and under wouldbe considered child marriage.
There's a couple of differentparameters around that though, and
(03:44):
each state handles it differently.
There's through parentalconsent, oftentimes 16 and 17 year
olds are able to get marriedif there's no law prohibiting that
in the state under the age of 16.
Most states require a judge toapprove that marriage and there's
(04:04):
more often than not apregnancy involved.
And that's what they call thepregnancy exception.
You know, in my opinion, it'sunfortunate that that has to.
That it has taken place andthen continues to take place in lot
of different states within theUnited States.
At the time that, that thishappened to you, was it pretty prevalent
(04:26):
in Kentucky?
It was.
And you know, of course at thetime I wasn't aware of how prevalent
it was.
My case was really unique inthe sense that I was a resident of
Kentucky when it happened.
My perpetrator was a residentof Indiana and I was taken to Tennessee.
(04:47):
So.
So I had three states involvedin this.
And you know, there was nointersection compact or anything
between the states thatprohibited a minor from being taken
to one in order to be married off.
And you know, these were allthings that we looked at when we
were addressing the legalityof it.
In my home state of Kentuckythat same year, I actually lobbied
(05:10):
in both Indiana and Tennesseeas well to achieve.
Legislative changes there,which is amazing because you would
think that taking a childacross state lines for something
that is illegal wouldobviously take a precedent in whether
or not you charge somebody orwhether or not you take action with
that.
To the best of your knowledge,you know, if there's child marriage
(05:32):
practice in other states, doyou know what other states might
be still unfortunately, withinthat realm?
Oh, absolutely.
So I can tell you that in theUS only 15 states right now ban child
marriage altogether.
And even in my home state ofKentucky, in Indiana and Tennessee,
you know, the other statesthat I lobbied in back in 2018, we
(05:55):
were able to get the age limitraised to 17.
We did away with the pregnancy exception.
We did away with parental consent.
There now has to be judgeinvolvement to determine if it's
a predatory situation, toassess the disparity in age.
But in those three states,it's still not entirely prohibited.
Again, only 15 states do banit altogether.
(06:18):
And when you consider the factthat since the year 2000, there have
been over 300,000 cases ofchild marriage in the U.S. it is
certainly a prevalent problemthat hides in the shadows.
That is, I mean, as a father,I have two young ladies.
That really kind of.
(06:40):
That angers me to a point andit upsets me to a point.
And I wish that there was morethat I could do about that.
So hopefully we can get somepeople kind of educated here and
maybe inspire them to takeaction in their own states.
How did you find yourself in amarriage at that young age?
And how old were you?
Yeah, so I was 16 when I wasmarried off to a man that was 31.
(07:04):
And, you know, the groomingfor that really started as a very
young child.
Grew up in a house where therewas a lot of abuse.
There was a lot ofgenerational trauma.
My mom had also been marriedoff at an extremely young age.
Actually, when she married mydad, he already had two boys from
his first marriage and hadbeen divorced.
(07:27):
He had already served for acouple of years in the Korean War
at that point.
And this is back in 1955, andshe had just completed the eighth
grade, like, she had an eighthgrade education and became a stepmother
to these two young little boysand a soldier's wife, you know.
And then, you know, shedefinitely had a lot of her own history
(07:49):
with her parents being abusive.
And between that, the lack ofeducation, the fact that, you know,
now she was.
Had all this responsibilityput on her at 13 years of age, she
ended up not being in a goodmentally healthy state.
And so by the time I was born,you know, I suffered a lot at the
(08:09):
hands of that, through thatand through, you know, her not taking
action.
When I disclosed other formsof abuse that occurred when I was
small, it really set me up tobe groomed.
And when I was 14, and this isright after my father passed away,
he died of lung cancer when Iwas 13.
(08:29):
And so when I was 14, youknow, given the abuse, given his
Death given, you know, metaking care of him for eight months
leading up to his death.
My mother ended up putting mein a behavioral health facility because
I was self harming, I wasacting out.
And also, probably more thananything, I was starting to stand
(08:51):
up to her when she wasattempting to abuse me physically.
And so when I went into thisbehavioral health facility in 1998
when I was 14, I met a mentalhealth technician there who was 29
and that is who I now refer toas my perpetrator because he groomed
me, he groomed my mom.
(09:13):
And flash forward a couple ofyears after my mom let me date him.
And I use that, you know, termvery loosely because there wasn't
anything dating about it.
It was predatory.
But she let me see him for twoyears before agreeing to sign me
over to marry him.
And you know, he paid her$1,000 for that as well.
(09:35):
So essentially she traffickedme to him.
And you know, in my story andthe story of so many others, we see
that through the legality ofchild marriage, it is perversely
hypocritical when it comes tolaws regarding consent and statutory
rape offenses.
You know, had him, had he notbeen granted a marriage license,
(09:57):
he could have been chargedwith statutory rape.
But when we allow predators tomarry children, we are literally
giving them a license tocontinue abusing that child.
And that's not just my story.
When I pulled the stats on thestate of Kentucky, we had a little
13 year old girl that wasmarried off to a 33 year old man
(10:19):
and she was pregnant.
And we had a 15 year old girlmarried off to a 52 year old man
who was also pregnant.
And I could go on and on.
You know, those are twoexamples of 11,000 cases of child
marriage that had occurred atthe time.
I pulled the data in 2018 and.
I think that, you know,especially as a father and a father
(10:40):
of two young ladies, it's kindof one of these things that I don't
quite understand thephilosophy by allowing a 13 year
old, a 12 year old, 13 yearold, 14 year old to be able to get
pregnant and get married,especially to an older man.
I think that there's a veryserious issue in regard to that.
(11:04):
But thank you for sharing.
I mean, that's honest and I'msure it was hard.
I imagine the way to beingplaced into a situation like that
at that young age, theintergenerational trauma along with
it.
And I'm sure you had otheratrocities that had kind of compounded
upon itself.
But yet your voice Todaycarries not just the truth, but it
(11:26):
carries strength.
Strength.
I think that you didn't justsurvive, you kind of transformed.
What was your turning point inthis journey, if I can ask?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I'll tell you, I've had afew of them.
You know, I definitely believethat healing isn't linear.
It's, you know, definitely ajourney that we go on and we take
(11:50):
all kinds of twists and turnsalong that way.
Really.
What was the catalyst for meleaving when I was 19 was that, you
know, I had gotten pregnantwhen I was 17 and gave birth to my
daughter when I was 18.
I had pretty much just turned18 as well.
And my birthday is actually atthe end of January and my oldest
(12:13):
daughter's birthday is thebeginning of March, if that tells
you, you know, how fresh teenI was.
And right after I turned 18,my perpetrator had me working at
a strip club.
So, you know, my credibilitywas shot, you know, and he definitely
had orchestrated things to,you know, make me look like, you
(12:34):
know, not a fit mother or whathave you.
And when I left him and thedivorce proceedings were occurring,
when the judge looked on paperat, you know, here I was again at
the time a 19 year old kid.
Basically, I had stoppedworking at that place, but I was
(12:55):
working for like 8 bucks anhour, 20 hours a week, you know,
no education, right.
My perpetrator had his degree,he had his bachelor's degree, was
going to start working on hismaster's degree and he had income
that was more sustainable atthat point.
And so the judge didn't takeinto account the age disparity.
(13:18):
He very much, you know, tookinto account what he said about me
working at a strip club and,you know, again, ruining my credibility.
And so he ended up giving myperpetrator custody of my daughter.
And it was so atrocious, soheartbreaking for me that, you know,
(13:38):
here I thought that I wasgoing to be able to take my daughter
with me.
You know, when I was lookingat apartments and stuff, it was one
of the things I was considering.
I had passed over one supercheap apartment because it had a
radiator out that was exposed.
And I was concerned that, youknow, it would get hot, she would
burn herself.
And so I opted for a littlebit more expensive apartment or whatever
(14:01):
at that time.
You know, these were thingsthat, of course, I'm planning, you
know, as I'm making my escape.
And to know that the best Icould ask for is visitation, which
he very much kept controlledand would try to antagonize me and
Try to intimidate me and such.
When that happened, I realizedthat so much of the silence that
(14:24):
I had to bear and so much ofthe shame that I carried, whether
it was from not gettingcustody of my.
Of my child, you know, or evenbeing married off at such a young
age, where all the abuse thatI had experienced, I had to get to
the point where I realizedthat that shame that was associated
(14:45):
with all of that wasn't mineto carry, and that I had the choice.
I could either live out andbecome a statistic the way that,
you know, so many childrenthat have been abused significantly
and endured significant traumaand exploitation have, or I could
take control of my narrative.
(15:06):
I could take control of mylife for the first time, and in doing
so, light the path for othersto recognize that they could do the
same.
And so that's what ended upinitially motivating me to start
speaking out.
And then, of course, once Istarted collecting data, because
I knew that would be reallyimportant in the fight to end child
(15:28):
marriage and, you know,address other laws that perpetuate
harm against children, once Istarted getting the data, I realized,
oh, my gosh, there's, like, noway that I will ever stop fighting,
because it is way tooprevalent, and people don't know
about it because there's somuch stigma, there's so much shame.
There's so much silence that'swrapped around all of it.
(15:50):
Which is why, I mean, theaverage age of disclosure for childhood
sexual abuse is 52.
I mean, by that time, peoplehave raised a family.
They've raised, you know,they're probably having their grandkids
over and such, and, you know,it's such a heavy weight to carry
for the majority of your life.
(16:11):
And I don't want mydescendants to have to live a life
where they have to spend, youknow, the second half of it trying
to turn the first half around.
I empathize with you.
I'm sorry that you had to gothrough that.
How did.
How did growing up in Kentuckyshape your understanding of trauma
and justice, for that matter?
(16:32):
Because it seems to me that,you know, that's got to have a lasting
effect coming from a guy thatI spent a good portion of my life
fighting for justice as apolice officer arresting people.
I believe in the justicesystem, but I also see that there
are some cracks in the justicesystem and that there are some holes
(16:56):
and loopholes that peoplesqueeze through in the justice system.
How did growing up in Kentuckyshape your understanding of trauma
and justice in general?
If I can ask?
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
And it's really important,too, because I grew up in various
areas of rural Kentucky, andthat's vastly different than where
(17:20):
I live now.
I live in Louisville now.
You know, it's a muchdifferent atmosphere, much different
demographics, but, you know,going from different place to different
place and more rural Kentucky,I didn't have a lot of visibility
into what rights I even had asa kid.
Right.
Because, you know, when you'rea kid, you're just looking to your
(17:41):
parents to guide you and totell you what's right from wrong.
One of the things that Iappreciate about the systems that
we have here in Louisville,and, you know, this is having a younger
daughter that I raised upthree through the school system,
who actually just turned 18and is getting ready to go off to
college.
But we actually spend timefocusing on educating kids about
(18:04):
what their rights to their ownsafety is and who to go to.
Yeah.
You know, how to disclose ifthose safety parameters have been
violated.
And I think that that'ssomething that's really important
for us to recognize.
Recognize.
I think the other thing thatbelongs in that part of the conversation,
too, is that there's so muchintersectionality between intergenerational
(18:29):
trauma and other harms, likepoverty, for example.
You know, now I will say ourcurrent governor has done a phenomenal
job of addressing barriers toeducation and addressing the poverty
that we've had here in Kentucky.
But, you know, years before,before, that has not always been
the case.
And as I was growing up, somany of the places I was in were
(18:53):
just poverty stricken andeducation wasn't prioritized.
And when you don't have thoseexamples, then you do.
It's easy to fall into thosecycles of abuse, if that's all you've
ever known, you know, and.
And also because the abuseitself has such a significant impact
on you and your own healthconditions, your own mental health
(19:17):
and such, if you don'.
Realize that you can gettreatment to that and that you can
break those cycles and thatthere are opportunities beyond that,
then that's what you carryforward in your lineage.
And, you know, that's one ofmy missions.
Yes, absolutely.
Breaking laws or not breakinglaws, but changing laws that should
(19:37):
be broken because, you know,they do allow the crimes to be perpetuated
against children.
But even more than that, it'sabout breaking the chains of these
generational curses that runthrough families.
Yeah, I think just learningabout intergenerational trauma in
(19:57):
that form just within the lastcouple of years.
And the more and more thatI've heard it.
The more and more I startrecognizing it and seeing what the
ramifications of thatintergenerational trauma does.
You know, my.
My mother and my grandmotherand my grandfather on my mother's
side, her whole family, theygrew up in rural West Virginia.
(20:20):
So I understand that poverty.
They all lived.
It was like nine kids and acouple aunt and uncle and their kids,
and they all lived in onehouse, you know, and I didn't learn
about this until, you know,she was like, 65, 60 and 69 years
old.
Between 65, 69 years old, shefinally started talking about all
(20:44):
of that and then thegenerational trauma that she went
through in regard to, which isstuff, you know, we as kids.
She obviously didn't want totalk to her kids about it until we
got older and old enough tounderstand a little better.
But it took her 60 years, 65years before she couldn't even bring
it up and talk about it.
(21:06):
Which I think.
I think if we can get the wordout and we get the opportunity out
that you have opportunity thatyou can step out of that intergenerational
trauma, you have thatopportunity, you have a choice that
you can get away from it andto move away from it and to heal
(21:28):
and to move forward.
And that's kind of what we'rehere for, you know, So I want to
honor their strength byexploring what, you know, I kind
of.
What came next.
I know trauma doesn't justhappen in a moment.
I know this personally, I knowthis professionally.
It echoes, you know, can youtake us into, like, an emotional
landscape of those early years?
What you said earlier, youmentioned the silence, that.
(21:52):
What did the silence feel like?
How did it shape the way yousaw yourself and the world around
you?
And.
And then I'm throwing a bunchof questions at you, and then how.
How did that help you step outof that?
Yeah, absolutely.
And these are great questions.
And, you know, one of thethings that I wanted to respond to
real fast, and I think it's agood segue into this next part.
(22:16):
And when we talk aboutintergenerational trauma and how
long people wait to talk aboutthose things.
I saw this quote the other daythat I thought, oh, my gosh, this
is so spot on.
And that is if you don'tconfront your demons, they end up
raising your children.
And that hit me hard becauseit's so true, you know, and granted,
(22:38):
maybe we don't like, you know,for me, as an example, with my younger
daughter, the one that justturned 18, you know, I certainly
know that she didn't gothrough anything like I did when
I was a kid.
I very much protected her from that.
You know, I was determined togive her the polar opposite experience,
and I did achieve that in alot of ways.
(22:59):
But there were other ways thatI wasn't really, you know, my best
self because I was still healing.
I think the part that is, youknow, good and commendable about
that experience, though, isthat we were able to talk about that.
And so she was able to be honest.
You know, if, like, my tonewas too harsh or I was overwhelmed
(23:20):
and I wasn't giving her theattention that she needed or what
have you, we could have thoseconversations, and it wasn't something
I would become offended by andthen, you know, end up, like, sending
her on a guilt trip forcommunicating about her own needs.
And that pretty much seguesinto the experience that I had when
I was a child, which was verydifferent than that.
(23:43):
You know, I was physicallybeaten if I made simple mistakes,
like dropping a carton of milkand, you know, it's spilling, you
know, if I didn't have my haira certain way, if I didn't fit into
my clothes a certain way.
My mother was very perfectionistic.
I understand now that she wasso consumed with how things looked
(24:07):
on the outside because it washer way of making up for all the
dysfunction on the inside.
And, you know, that'ssomething that stayed with me.
Even when I got out ofsituations, I had to portray myself
as, you know, having it all together.
Even when inside I was fallingapart, I had to portray myself as
(24:28):
having it all together.
And when I was a kid, I wasespecially easily targeted to be
groomed because of that,because I didn't feel safe vocalizing,
you know, what was upsettingto me or even trusting my own judgment.
When I was five and I hadexperienced childhood sexual abuse,
(24:52):
and I disclosed that to mymom, she had a really harsh reaction
to me, and I ended up beingblamed for it at 5.
And so that made me realizethat, you know, it wasn't safe to
communicate things.
And also, I internalized atthat point that anything bad that
happened, I was the cause of it.
(25:15):
So, you know, all these thingsgo into, you know, building this
character where I, like, havevery much carried into my life, into
my adulthood, this narrativethat I'll never be good enough.
And.
And, you know, my husband andI talk about this on the podcast
that we launched called theLast Generation about.
(25:37):
We talk about, you know,relational healing, right?
And how when you're wounded inrelationship with someone, which
more Often than not, startswith your parents.
You can't heal in isolation.
And that's what so many of usdo, because that's the only thing
that's ever felt safe.
But you have to be able tohave some type of trusting, loving,
(26:02):
supportive relationship, andit doesn't necessarily have to be
a significant other, butcertainly is helpful, you know, if
it is.
But still, to this day, asmuch healing as I've done, you know,
I still find myself insituations where, you know, if his
tone is a little too harsh or,you know, we have some situation
(26:22):
where I feel like, you know,his attention is going elsewhere
or what have you, I can getreally worked up over that emotionally.
And those, you know, thatinner narrative comes back that,
well, I'm not good enough andI'm being rejected and I'm going
to be left.
And I really have to bemindful of my healing path and being
(26:46):
open to having realconversations when that happens.
I think that, you know, thosekind of traumas shape your identity
and your relationships as youcome along.
And sometimes we have to learnto recognize that.
And once we recognize it, youknow, we.
We have to look on how tochange it and how to.
How to kind of mold it intosomething that's more positive.
(27:07):
I know it's difficult attimes, but you've done it.
You do it.
You do it.
You just said here that you.
You have communication.
I think communication is key.
You have to have communication.
If you lose communication inany situation, then it's more difficult
to get the.
Get the understanding back andthe compassion back and the humanity
back into that.
(27:29):
Absolutely.
And, you know, as far ascommunication goes as well, I think,
especially for a lot of traumasurvivors, we weren't modeled what
healthy communication looks like.
Right.
So a lot of times we have todiscover that either on our own or
by observing the way thatother people that, you know, seem
to be at peace.
Right.
Like, what works for them.
(27:49):
And of course, there's varioushealing modalities for that as well.
But communication even canlook so different for people, depending
on what their experience iswith it.
And sometimes, yeah, like yousaid, sometimes we just have to learn
to recognize whatcommunication actually is and then
start moving ourself in thatdirection and learning how to communicate.
(28:10):
Do you believe that there'ssuch a thing as an inherited pain
in generational cycles?
Oh, yes.
Yes, absolutely.
How do you think we can getout of that or at least recognize
it and then maybe take thesteps to start removing ourselves
from that?
Yeah, I think, for one thing,I think the Core is recognizing that
(28:33):
our worth extends be beyond that.
And that that inherited painthat we experience because of the
pain that our parents felt andthe pain our grandparents felt and
the situations that they wentthrough that contributed to that.
All of that doesn't have to beours to carry.
And we are worth peace.
We are worth good things inour life.
(28:54):
We're worth stability.
We are worth loving.
Inherently, by being humans onthis planet, we are worth all those
things.
I think a lot of times when wehave experienced, you know, especially
chronic emotional pain,chronic physical abuse, you know,
childhood sexual abuse, weinternalize our value as being nothing.
(29:17):
And we look for affection andaffirmation from sources that are
not good for us, that aretoxic, because that's all that we've
ever known.
And getting to the point,point that we realize that love and
value and trust and, you know,all of the things that we want to
(29:38):
achieve in life are not justmeant for others.
They are meant for us as well.
Then our accountability forseizing opportunities to bring that
into our lives, that's wherethat starts.
And I think a lot of timespeople get really caught up in thinking
that things are out of reachfor them.
And I understand that thereare hurdles after hurdles between
(30:02):
where you are and where youwant to be.
But the key is never giving up.
No matter what the adversityis, no matter what the barriers are,
if one door will not open foryou, then you can find a cracked
window somewhere else.
And the point is to keep goingand keep looking for those opportunities
(30:27):
and looking for people thatbelieve in you as much as you need
to believe in yourself.
You know, that's.
It's.
It's powerful to hear howthose, you know, experiences deeply
shaped you and then how youcarry that truth into your work now.
And what you're saying, thewords that you're saying, obviously
have meaning in regard to.
(30:50):
We have a voice.
Yes, we have a community.
We just have to find our voiceand find our community.
And once we find both ofthose, it can allow us a healing
opportunity to be able to move forward.
And honestly, what's even moreremarkable is that you didn't stay
in that place.
You chose to speak.
And you do have a voice.
(31:12):
And you did it throughverbally, you did it in writing,
and you decided to fight,fight the system.
And I think you've madestrides in fighting the system.
Can we shift maybe a momentinto, like, awakening when you realize
your story could spark changenot just for you, but for others?
Kind of what lit that fire?
Because you've created a Podcast.
(31:32):
It's a conversation youcreated, you wrote the book, you
work with legislation.
I saw on your website there'sa nice message on there that talks
about how, you know, you madechange in the state and at least
in Kentucky and little areasaround from you.
So what lit that fire?
Yeah, that's a great question.
(31:55):
So my daughter, again, my 18year old back a few years ago, I
recognized that she wasgetting really involved in things
that spoke about women's rights.
Like, you know, she's eightyears old, she had to do her women's
history project and so shechose Malala.
(32:15):
And Malala, of course, youknow, fought for women's rights to
education in Afghanistan andsuffered horrible consequences because
of it, but she continued fighting.
And Willow, you know, my, mydaughter was incredibly inspired
by that story.
And I think it's also becauseof the candid conversations that
(32:35):
we had had about, you know,some early life struggles that I
had had as well.
And seeing that in her, seeingthat inspiration in her and, you
know, right down to going to aUnited nations event and taking her
with me and the person runningthe event asking her, oh, do you
want to get up and, you know,talk about your report or whatever.
(32:58):
And she did, totally impromptuto like, I thought this lady was
kidding, but no, they gave herlike five minutes, impromptu for,
you know, this little eightyear old girl to get up on the stage
and talk about why women'seducation is so important.
And so these were things I wasalready feeling this stirring, already
feeling like I had spent somuch of my life trying to turn myself
(33:21):
into the polar opposite thanwhat I had grown up with and what
my initial start intoindependence was going to be.
But I had such silence, youknow, I couldn't even answer a question
of, well, where did yougraduate high school without feeling
retraumatized and like I was worthless?
Because how do you tellsomeone, well, actually, I didn't
(33:43):
even complete 10th grade,right, because I had to get my GED
and then I had to put myselfthrough school, all while raising
a young kid.
So to be able to see that, youknow, I had obviously had some positive
influence on my kid for herto, you know, be as independent as
she was and, you know, anindependent thinker and really concerned
(34:06):
about humanitarianism.
And so at that point Irealized that I could start speaking
about the experiences that Ihad and hopefully start creating
change.
And I started reaching out toorganizations I knew were working
on issues of child marriage.
I really got angry, you know,thinking about everything that I
(34:29):
had gone through, reallyhaving that Realization that instead
of being handed a license tocontinue abusing me, my perpetrator
should have been roped up in apair of handcuffs.
But instead, the opposite happened.
And so, like, letting thatanger fuel me, not to be destructive,
but productive, that's wherethat transformation happened.
(34:53):
And then it was like, youknow, as happens, I think a lot of
times when you're on apositive spiritual path, it's like
all of a sudden all thesedoors just start opening, and you
have all these opportunitiesthat lead to other opportunities.
And so it was just a matter ofseizing all of those.
And, you know, I.
(35:14):
Again, you know, one of themost liberating things for me was
throwing the shame off andputting it back in the hands of the
predator.
And so, you know, through mywork, that's very much what I do
and what I reinforce forsurvivors and also fostering that
sense of community, becausesurvivors such as myself had to spend
so much time in isolation.
(35:36):
Having a community with eachother and having a community that
is focused on making thingsbetter for our descendants, that
is incredibly healing as well.
That's.
That's.
Yes, you have the right fire.
Speaking of fire, what.
What.
I mean, what inspired you towrite Ashes to Flame?
(35:58):
You mentioned earlier thatcongratulations on your ged.
You should be proud of that.
That's an accomplishment in itself.
You put yourself back through that.
You made the choice, yourconcerted choice, and that's a positive
thing.
You know, the high schoolsometimes overrated.
So you got it.
It works.
So what inspired you to writeAshes to Flame?
(36:20):
An advocate for legal reform.
Yeah, so I started advocatingback in 2018, 2016, really.
But I really got heavy,heavily involved in 2018, like, literally
traveling the country, stateby state, talking with legislators,
giving testimony beforelegislative bodies and such.
I'm giving tons of interviews.
(36:42):
I was in a documentary thatwas hosted by A E called I Was a
Child Bride, and my story isfeatured there as well.
And so after having thatexperience and, you know, while all
of that advocacy washappening, I was simultaneously doing
a lot of journaling.
And when I met my now husband,we've been together for about three
(37:04):
years, and I started havingthese kind of conversations with
him.
He's like, you gotta write a book.
And I'm like, well, you know,I've got about 10 years worth of
material already, so.
But that was one of his, youknow, big pieces of encouragement
as well as other people needto hear this.
You know, people need to hearthat they're not alone.
And people need to hear thatthey can take the worst pain Imaginable
(37:29):
and turn it into somethingthat is protective for other people.
That's how we start breakingthis generational cycles.
Very cool.
And the fact that you, youhave an individual that supports
you in that way, I'm happy for you.
That's, that's cool becauseit's always nice to have somebody
in your corner like that.
So very cool.
(37:49):
I'm sure that requiredstrength, especially to fight for
justice in the face of resistance.
You know, it's.
As you said, the laws don'theal people.
They protect, they prevent.
But healing is something thatgoes a little bit deeper.
And I know that you helped, wementioned it earlier, you had helped
with legal child marriage inKentucky and getting that law changed.
(38:12):
What they think is like, phenomenal.
Hopefully there'll be morethat follow.
Forgive me, I don't rememberif you said you also got it changed
in Tennessee and Tennessee as well.
Tennessee and Indiana.
And Indiana.
All three of them.
So, you know, outstanding.
I mean, an individual thatobviously fights.
(38:35):
I spent 17 years fighting forjustice, so I respect that and thank
you for taking those steps inorder to get that change put into
place.
Hopefully we can move itforward with every state that needs
to.
It's amazing.
It blows me away that inreality, what did you say there was
(39:02):
something like only 15 statesthat don't have it.
Yes.
Well, 15 states that outlawchild marriage across the board,
meaning, like age 18 and upis, you know, the only option.
Even in the states where, youknow, I was able to get some change,
(39:22):
we improved things.
Like in Kentucky, Indiana,Tennessee, we set the minimum age
through at 17, did away withparental consent, has to go before,
before a judge, you know, all this.
But it's still not that betterstate of age 18.
And the reason that thatpart's so important is because you
can't legally enter into a contract.
(39:44):
Yeah.
Until you're 18, meaning youcan't rent your own apartment.
You can't even file for yourown divorce.
Right.
You can't even consent to yourown child's medical care or your
own.
And so, you know, these areall harms and barriers to a minor
having protection if ithappens before they reach the age
(40:06):
of majority.
So that's why I do continue tofight, including still in Kentucky,
to get the minimum age phraseto 18.
So it's only legal adults thatare marrying.
Yeah, I agree with you.
I say as.
Look, I like I have to laughbecause my kids will tell you that
(40:28):
every time they were afraid tobring a guy home if they were going
to go out on a date because itwould be the, you know, the cop come
out of me.
And, you know, it's like,okay, I want this and I want you
not to do that and not do thisand be home by this time.
I love that.
Yeah, they kind of even hadfriends of mine and their godfather
(40:51):
actually, you know, would theybe on patrol and they'd see Caitlyn
out with a date or Nicole, and.
And they'd kind of get the carnext to the guy and just kind of
look, it's like, dad, can youplease tell Uncle John to stop doing
that?
I said, we're just trying toprotect you.
(41:11):
That's all.
We're just trying to protect you.
Just.
Just a little.
A little humor.
You move from surviving totruly living.
And I think that obviouslylaws alone.
I think we need a mindset.
Your journey from trauma topurpose is a roadmap for so many
people.
And through your podcast andyour writing and your advocacy, you
(41:35):
become a guide for others whoare still in the dark.
I've listened to your podcast.
I think it's a greatopportunity for individuals to understand
the.
They're not alone.
And that if they're goingthrough something, it doesn't necessarily
have to be exactly what youhave gone through.
What you've shown, at least inmy opinion, is that you give opportunity
(41:55):
for them to understand thatyou can rise from the ashes, you
can rise again, you canovercome, and that you can just.
You have to understand theconfidence and the community and
the resources that you havehave in order to do that.
In Ashes to Flame, you talkabout rewriting your legacy.
What does that mean for survivors?
(42:17):
And how.
How can we recognize it if weneed to go into that mode of survival?
Yeah.
So rewriting your legacy isbasically saying that you are going
to take control of your lifeand not have your.
Your parents and yourgrandparents experiences be left
(42:38):
out through you.
And that is how we break thosegenerational cycles of pain, and
that's how we end up plantingthose seeds.
And, you know, one of thethings that I love to equate it to
is, you know, when you plantseeds for a tree.
Right.
That tree may take years toreally take root and start bearing
(43:01):
fruit.
So there's a poem that talksabout planting seeds for a tree that
you will never receive theshade from.
You're not necessarily goingto get the great benefit from that
in your lifetime, but yourkids and their kids will.
It takes so much time forthings to heal, but if you take those
(43:23):
first steps, if you startchanging the way you treat yourself,
you're going to start changingthe way that you treat others people
for the better.
And if you start having thoseopen conversations with people and
really honoring any and allemotions that come up, using them
to be propellants of change,like anger.
(43:43):
You know, just as one example,we attach such a negative stigma
to the emotion of anger, butit can be one of the most powerful
emotions and clearing spacefor positive change.
And so when we start leaninginto that, that is really how we
start rewriting those legaciesand making things different, creating
(44:07):
a different landscape for ourchildren and grandchildren to be
able to seize.
And that's profound.
I think that we all have that opportunity.
I wish I could talk to you fora whole another hour.
We could, we could really divedeep into this, but unfortunately
we have to kind of close it alittle bit here.
(44:27):
But as we begin that close, Ialways say there's always one more
thing, right?
One more thing before we go.
So before we go, what wouldyou say to someone who's stuck in
silence?
You kind of just mentioned it.
But what would be the firststep to somebody who hasn't found,
found their flame like youfound and kind of not to be the last
(44:53):
generation, like your podcastsays, to make sure it doesn't go
past us to stop thatintergenerational trauma, to kind
of move forward.
Yeah.
So I think there comes a timein all of our lives where we ask
ourselves, what's our purpose?
Right.
What's our purpose in being onthis planet?
And, you know, what is it thatwe're going to do with our life,
(45:14):
however many years is left of that.
And I would say that forsomebody looking to find their purpose,
looking to really ignite theirown flame, you've got to lean into
your pain because your pain isso powerful.
And it can be what holds youback or it can be what sends you
soaring.
(45:35):
Lean into that pain, recognizeit, name it, seek help for it.
Find a community that's goingto support you in the process of
navigating it and watch howthat transforms and watch how that
becomes the purpose filledlife that you've been looking to
create.
(45:55):
Brilliant words of wisdom, Donna.
Let's tell everybody how theyget in touch with you.
You have a course, you havesome other resources, you have a
book and you have your podcastthat we just talked about.
How do we get in touch withyou and what can we find on your
website?
Yeah.
So folks can visit my websiteat traumatopurpose.com or email me
(46:17):
at donna traumatopurpose.comas far as getting in touch goes.
And then we do have somedigital course materials that are
self paced, one of which I'mextremely, extremely excited about.
We've recently launched it andwe've already had a lot of really
great feedback from folks thathave gone through it.
(46:38):
It's called the TrustBlueprint and it is on relational
healing.
So it talks about how tonavigate healing and relationships
and, you know, push throughtrust issues and such when you've
experienced betrayal before.
So, really excited for that.
And of course, course, my bookis Ashes to Flame, Transforming Trauma
(47:00):
into Purpose.
It is available, the ebook isavailable on my website, traumatopurpose.com
but then it's also on Amazonand hardback paperback copies as
well as audiobook.
I did narrate my ownaudiobook, so that's available on
Audible, which can be accessedthrough Amazon as well.
And then finally, the LastGeneration podcast.
(47:23):
That is a relatively newlaunch and we just launched it back
in June, and I record everyother week.
So we have about sevenepisodes out there right now.
And we really tackle theissues that a lot of people are afraid
to talk about.
And it is very much focused onhow we can be the best partners we
(47:43):
can be, how we can be the bestparents, and how to get real in our
healing journey.
So that podcast is certainly night.
And for anyone wanting tofocus on surface level, we do take
things very deep.
But that is how we become thelast generation of trauma.
So thank you.
That's amazing.
I'll make sure that all ofthat is in the show notes so that
(48:05):
they have an easy way toconnect with you and just by pressing
a button.
Great.
Thank you.
Yeah, Donna, thank you very much.
You know, you remind us thathealing isn't quiet, it's futile.
Trauma doesn't define us.
It dares us to rise.
And that rewriting your legacyisn't just possible, it's necessary.
(48:26):
Your story is a flame, onethat lights the path for others to
walk through darkness and in truth.
And a reminder to everyone inthe community, sometimes the most
powerful transformation beginswith just one more thing before you
go.
So thank you very much forsharing your journey, your experience,
your wisdom.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, Michael.
(48:46):
It's such a pleasure to be aguest on your show and I appreciate
all of your thoughtfulquestions and what a fierce advocate
you are as well.
Thank you very much.
I really appreciate you andwhat you do for the world.
Absolutely.
I appreciate you as well.
So that's a wrap for today's episode.
I hope you found inspiration,motivation, and a new perspective
to take with you.
If you enjoy thisconversation, be sure to like subscribe
(49:08):
and follow us.
It helps us to continuebringing incredible stories like
this one and insights like these.
And if you want to watch thisepisode, head over to YouTube, catch
the full video version.
We'd love to hear from you.
If you have questions, showideas, or think you make a great
guest, or if you have commentsabout this show, reach out Us Connect.
This show thrives because ofthis amazing community.
(49:29):
I appreciate each and everyone of you for being part of it.
And until next time, One MoreThing before you all go.
Have a great day.
Have an even better week andthank you for joining us.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of One more Thing before
you go.
Check out our website atbefore you go podcast.com you can
find us as well as subscribeto the program and rate us on your
(49:50):
favorite podcast listening platform.
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