May 14, 2025 • 42 mins
The episode poignantly addresses the profound impact of inter-generational trauma, prompting a critical examination of how the burdens of the past can reverberate through subsequent generations.
We are joined by Nancy Heart, the esteemed author of "Whispers, Sinners, and Saints," who elucidates the harrowing yet inspiring journey of Ann, a Hungarian woman who survived Nazi persecution, and the enduring effects of her trauma on her daughter, Anna. Nancy's narrative compels us to confront the complexities of survival, resilience, and the pursuit of truth amidst cycles of pain. As we delve into her writing process and the revelations she unearthed, we invite listeners to reflect on their own experiences and the transformative power of healing. Join us as we explore the intricate tapestry of human experience woven through suffering and hope.
Show Notes
The engaging podcast features a profound discussion on the impact of generational trauma, with an emphasis on the stories that weave through the lives of families affected by historical atrocities. At the heart of this episode is Nancy Heart, author of "Whispers, Sinners and Saints," who shares the painful yet inspiring narrative of her mother, Anne, a Holocaust survivor. Hart's exploration of her family’s history reveals the complex layers of trauma that are often passed down through generations. The conversation delves into how these experiences shape identities, relationships, and the quest for healing, as Hart and host Michael Hurst contemplate the intricate dynamics of pain and resilience.
Throughout the conversation, Heart reflects on her journey of writing her book, which serves as a cathartic endeavor to confront her family's past. She articulates the emotional labor involved in recounting experiences of suffering and survival, shedding light on the notion that confronting such narratives can lead to profound personal growth. The title of her book signifies the duality of human experience—the whispers of past traumas, the sinners who inflict pain, and the saints who offer hope and healing. This exploration encourages listeners to consider the significance of acknowledging their own familial histories and the potential for transformation that comes with understanding and forgiveness.
The episode concludes with a message of empowerment and resilience, emphasizing that healing from trauma is not only possible but essential for breaking cycles of pain. Hart's story serves as a beacon of hope, inviting listeners to engage with their own histories and to recognize that, even in the face of unimaginable hardship, there lies the potential for healing and growth. By sharing her narrative, Hart not only honors her family's legacy but also inspires others to embrace their journeys towards understanding and reconciliation.
Takeaways:
- The podcast delves into the profound consequences of generational trauma and the imperative of healing.
- Nancy Hart's book, Whispers, Sinners, and Saints, reveals the resilience of individuals amid harrowing experiences.
- The dialogue explores the nuances of survival, particularly through the lens of Ann's experiences during the Holocaust.
- A central theme is the exploration of truth, as Nancy Hart discusses her family's history and its impact on her identity.
- The episode emphasizes the significance of forgiveness as a means to heal from past trauma.
- Listeners are encouraged to reflect on the lessons learned from Nancy's narrative and their relevance in contemporary society.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, one more thing before yougo. What happens when the trauma
of one generation is passeddown to the next? How do we break
free from cycles of pain andfind healing? We can answer these
questions and more as we havea conversation about a story that
is both heartbreaking andinspiring. A story of survival, trauma,
perseverance, and the searchfor truth. I'm your host, Michael
Hurst. Welcome to One morething before you go away and don't
(00:23):
go away Foreign. My guest isNancy Heart. She's the author of
Whispers, Sinners and Saints.It's a gripping, multi generational
biography that uncovers thedevastating impact of war, abuse,
(00:47):
and disinformation whilehighlighting the resilience of the
human spirit. Nancy's booktakes us through the harrowing experience
of Anne, a Hungarian woman whosurvived the horrors of Nazi persecution
only to carry the weight ofher trauma into motherhood. Her daughter
Anna endured unimaginableabuse, but found salvation through
an omniscient connection. Allknowing. This raw and deeply personal
(01:12):
account forces us to confrontthe lasting effects of generational
trauma and the power ofperseverance. In this episode, we're
going to explore her journeyin writing this book, the truth she
uncovered, and the lessons wecan all take from this extraordinary
story. So stay with us as weuncover the whispers of the past
of sinners who shapeddestinies and saints who offered
(01:34):
hope. And I'm excited aboutthis conversation. Welcome to the
show, Nancy.
Thank you very much. I'mexcited to be here as well.
You know, it is. I have to sayhello to my old home state, Colorado.
So please say hi for mebecause I miss it.
Okay. I will go outside afterthe conversation and I'll wave a
(01:55):
big hello for you.
Wave a big hello. Thank youvery much. I know that you're not
originally from Colorado, butcan you. Can you. Where'd you grow
up?
I grew up in New York City.Manhattan. In the streets of Manhattan.
Far cry from Colorado, huh?
A very far cry from Colorado.And, you know, being out there at
(02:18):
age 3 in New York City and thestreets in the 1960s was not an easy
thing for me. But my mothersaid there's no war tanks out there,
so you're fine.
And it's all perspective,right? It's all perspective.
It depends on how you look atit, you know?
(02:39):
Exactly.
To me, they looked like wartanks. To me, they look. They were
very scary. Yeah.
You know, it, it's. It is.What brought you to. To. What brought
you to Colorado?
Well, my mother always said tome that I was going to end up behind
God's country. So I didn'tbelong in New York City. She'd always
(03:01):
say that to me. And I was. Ijust go a little slower pace. I like
to say hello to a lot ofpeople. I have a different kind of
way to me, and I've traveledthe world and I said, you know, I
just want to go someplacethat's very friendly and easygoing.
(03:22):
And then if I need excitement,I can always go and visit the big
cities, which is great, whichI love, and all the temples and churches
and this and that. But foreveryday life, I love the energy
of the mountains out here.
You know, it's. I have severalfriends that are from New York, and
that's where they ended up,actually. In fact, one of my old
partners, he was a retiredsergeant in. Out of New York City,
(03:46):
and he came out and worked forthe department that I was working
at in Colorado. And he puthimself right up in the middle of
the mountains and he said,this is. I love this. He said, I
miss New York occasionally,but he said, this is it. So welcome.
Welcome to Colorado. That'spretty cool. Your book, I know that
(04:10):
you. You're an author. Whatbrought you to become an author?
I mean, did you. Did youalways grow up wanting to be an author?
Did you want to go to college?Did you want to be a psychologist
or a doctor or.
I knew I was going to write.When I was age 4, I had a experience
with my mother, who was veryabusive. And I had asked this omniscient
(04:34):
being that I'm always con. Incontact with. He's always with me.
I call him Whispers. HenceWhispers. In the book, Sinner was
my mom and the saint was mygrandma. So I did. I had to make
sense of things because mymother just. It didn't make sense
how she always exploded. Andhe said to me, everything will be
(04:56):
all right when I write. Well,I was 4 years old, so it took me
a little bit of pacing up anddown on the street that she threw
me out to from the car outsideof the park to figure out what exactly
is right and right. You know,when you write, you're right. I mean,
(05:17):
of course you're right whenyou write. So r I g h t And then
I realized, oh, there's adifferent kind of writing writing.
So when I write everything,everything will be all right. And
I don't know, but the list,your listeners and yourself, if you
know that spirit kind of talksto you and it has a sense of humor.
(05:42):
So he was definitely rightbecause when, by the Time I wrote,
when I really started writingand I got this book published, my
mother had passed away. So hewas very correct in what he said.
Once I'm right, once I wrotethe book, everything was all right.
Did you go to university? Didyou go to college? Or did you just
go right into writing? That'snot proper English, is it? Right
(06:05):
into writing.
You know, and as long asyou're expressing yourself and you
work on it, it'll come outright. People will understand. I
went to University of Miami. Idid not go for writing. I went for
psychology because I needed tofigure out what was wrong with my
(06:25):
mother. And I'm right.
I'm actually right there withyou. I am.
You're right there with me,are you?
Definitely. Definitely.
I find it very helpful,psychology, you know? Yeah. And then
I had children. I got married.I had to get married. Not because
(06:45):
I got pregnant, but my motherforced me to get married because
she wanted me to get an Mrs.Degree. So I did not want that. I
wanted to get a. I wanted toalways be a doctor because I like
to help people. But I got anMrs. Degree. I raised two children.
They're adults now, and I didvery well with them. So that's. That's
(07:09):
my background, and I'vetraveled the world, and I'm also
a Reiki master. I'm a healer.You know, I. I'm very. My gifts are
well rounded. I'm wellrounded. And I'm also clairvoyant,
so clairaudient. That's myconnection with Whispers, because
he actually talks to me in myright ear, not my left one, only
(07:30):
my right ear.
Well, I mean, I think that initself is a gift. You know, I've
talked to a lot of people onthe show that. That are clairaudient.
Claire. Claire. They'reeverything. They're medium from all
perspectives. And some of themdo all of the senses, not just one
or two. Some have called itnot necessarily a curse, but a burden,
(07:53):
and others have said it was agift. And, you know, I personally,
I think that connection withthe metaphysical, that connection
with the other side, thatconnection with that omniscience.
President. President. Excuseme. Presence is like, to me, it's
a gift because you. You haveinsight that others don't have. You
have the. You have guidance,you know, on a consistent basis.
(08:17):
Somebody that's like, you haveright there whispers in your ear.
So that's pretty interesting.I know that your book Whispers Sinners
and Saints, it's a. It's adeeply personal thing in the Spanish
generations, kind of whatinspired you to write this? Is there
intergenerational traumawithin your story?
(08:38):
Oh yes. I mean it's theirstories within the stories. Each,
each chapter is a story. Andthen about the multi generational.
I go back to pretty much mymother's grandmother and even before
that her. So my mother's greatgrandmother and how she affected
(09:04):
how that it was that theylived. It's really interesting because
my great grandmother, mygreat, her great grandmother grew
up and lived in Hungary. Andher husband was from Poland. And
the horse, he was a travelingsalesman, like from the real original
(09:30):
traveling salesman's. He had ahorse and he would tie everything
onto the horse and betweenPoland and Hungary travel with the
wares that he would beselling. He once he sold some of
this is put in your order andthen he'd go back and forth. And
one day the horse died inHungary. So he wound up marrying
(09:51):
the prettiest girl in thevillage and opened up a first general
store in the area. So shegrew, the wife had everything. Because
having a general store backthen you did very well. That's, you
had everything. You, you know,clothes, food, all that. So her,
his children. One of them wasmy mother's grandmother. She grew
(10:16):
up not knowing how to doanything because they always thought
that she was going to getmarried and do well because they
had dignitaries and they haveall kinds of titles back then in
Hungary they'd all seek outour hand. But they did not allow
her to marry the man that shewanted to marry. And then one day
(10:40):
she turned 28 and she said,okay, the guy that I wanted to marry
gave up on me now and gotmarried. So I'm just getting the
first guy that comes to thedoor because at that, at those days,
28 years spinster. And shesaid, I'm just gonna get out of here.
So in knocks on the door is mygreat grandpa to be. And he was a
(11:05):
6 foot 8 artist. He wascommissioned to draw, make a portrait
for somebody at a big mansionin Vienna. And he saw my great and
great grandmother's picture onthe wall and said, oh my God, I'm
going to marry this beauty.And he carried this picture, this
(11:28):
little small picture in his,in his little pocket. And when Regina
was her name, when sheanswered the door, it was very strange
because she was not the younggirl that was in the picture. So
he goes, oh no, I don'tunderstand this. But she says, well,
come on in. And then hemarried her for the money. He said,
(11:53):
oh, all these nice things hereI can have the Life that I want.
I'm artist, distraordinaire.Well, her family disowned her. And
then because he did not comeup to par, they had eloped and gotten
married. And so the nextgeneration struggled in poverty.
(12:15):
They were in the ghetto beforethe ghetto was marked the ghetto
by Hitler's people in Hungary.And so she didn't know how to cook.
She didn't know how to clean.It was. She had, like, six children.
One I think she lost through amiscarriage. But three people eating
(12:38):
one potato every night. Theycouldn't even afford the butter.
It was terrible squalor. Andthen my grandmother wound up being.
What do you call that? Rousedout and taken to Auschwitz. And all
(12:59):
the men were already gone. Andmy mother was left behind. She was
about 11 or 12, like aroundthat age. And she was. She was. My
grandmother was very smartbecause she saw that times were changing.
So she got her baptism papers.Her daughter. She got her daughter
(13:19):
baptism papers. So my motherwould go in and out of the con. Not
the concentration camp, the.The gates of the ghetto, and take
care of her grandmother, whowas very, very skinny and dying of
hunger. And. But that kind of.Then on top of that, what really,
(13:44):
I think played a part in my.In my mother's not being well was
she was an illegitimate childborn in the depression in 1932. So
it was very, very bad. On topof being Jewish. The Jewish part
was. Was fine until Hitlercame around. But it was very hard.
(14:08):
And I think it. I think it. I.I don't know. I. Like, one day I'll
feel like this. Sometimes I'llfeel a different way. Because if
she wasn't the tough cookie,she was. If she wasn't, she was very,
like, very tough. Like, theteacher told her to pull her boots
(14:30):
off in first grade. And mymother, which was very common back
then, that's how you showedrespect in Europe. Anyway, the teacher
would sit down, lift her legand show the boot and say, remove
my shoes. And everybody didit. And my mother said, what are
you, crippled? Take it off yourself.
(14:52):
Sounds like my grandmother actually.
Does it. Yeah.
Yeah. That's reallyinteresting. How does that follow?
I mean, is this. How does thatcorrelate with the book? I know that
we follow Anna and her motherand both through unimaginable trauma
and resilience. Is it closelyrelated to this particular story?
(15:12):
Is this biographical? How doesthis relate to the book?
Yeah, that story is withinthat book. And I actually was born
Anna. My mother didn't knowwhat they were saying to her. And
when they were asking hername, so she was Anna. And then at
5 years old, I said, I'm notdoing this anymore. My name's Nancy.
(15:33):
And I just wouldn't answerher. Whatever she did, I didn't care
if she beat me. I justwouldn't answer it. She said, Nancy.
Then I answered her. So Iguess I have a little stubbornness
in me too, but I kind of gotfed up with running back and forth.
My grandmother came out toAmerica and I write all this in the,
(15:55):
in the, in the book. But whenshe came out, I was five and I was
really like about the firsttime I started to eat because my
mother was highly negligent asa, well, as abusive. And you know,
I, I mean, I didn't even knowhow to eat. I, I ate like an animal.
(16:17):
My grandmother had to teach mehow to eat. Nobody would sit and
eat with me. Yeah, it was, itwas, it was very hard. But what I
had to get over was knowingthat my mother hates me. From day
number one from, from themoment she saw me, she would tell
me from being very young thatI'm. She, she, she tried to send
(16:41):
me back, but they wouldn'tlet, they wouldn't let her send me
back. She said it. She, shedidn't want me. She wanted a pickle
in the middle. That's the wayshe put it. And she didn't get the
pickle in the middle. Shewanted a boy.
I gotcha. Gotcha. Thegentlemanly way of saying that she's.
(17:04):
Always like, it's a sandwichor something. But.
You know, it's interesting, Ithink, I think that those of us that
have grown up in, I won't sayin that kind of environment that
grew up in a. I, I was adomestic violence cop for a long
(17:27):
time. In fact, because of it,they grew up. I grew up with a very
dysfunctional family myself.And in growing up as a dysfunctional
family, you recognize it moreand more, especially when you go
into other houses. So thatallowed me a better observation,
perspective as a policeofficer when I worked at domestic
violence task force and peopledon't always understand domest domestic
violence is not just physicalall the time, it's mental, mental
(17:51):
and physical in that if it'sperpetually put upon you and you're
perpetually in thatenvironment, I know that sometimes
it comes unbearable and toeven survive within that environment.
So kudos first for coming outof it and wanting to make your own
way and being able to makesomething positive of your life because
(18:13):
that's where you've come tothis point here. You've written this
book that's shared, and youbecame a parent yourself, and your
kids are grown, and you'vemade a life for yourself in a very
positive way. So I appreciatethat. In changing your name from
Anna to Nancy, do you thinkthat just gave you more confidence
(18:35):
and fortitude and strength tobe able to survive through all that?
Yeah, it's a good question.So, because my mother was Anna, I
did not like my mother. Iloved her. Don't get me wrong, I
loved my mother, but I wasnothing like my mother. And she would
always say to everybody, wedon't look anything alike. We're
(18:56):
nothing alike. She's nothinglike me. So I said, you know, why
would I want to have her name?And then when I would, my middle
name was Clara, which was mygrandmother's name. But they would
call each other, you know, tocome over here, come over here. And
I would show up, and then Iwould hear, no, not you, the other
(19:19):
one. And after a while, therewas just so much I could take of
that. So Nancy happened to bethe pretty Girl on the Edge of Night
soap opera that my motherwatched. And I had figured out that's
the name I want. But I had todo it in a timely fashion. The. And
(19:44):
I had to lead her intothinking that she thought of the
name. And I had to ask onlywhen it was in commercial time. So,
you know, at age 5, my motherwas already teaching me, like, you
know, clear empathy. Like, Ican feel people's emotions and, like,
(20:08):
know when is the right time tosay something. When is not the right
time to say something. It's.But, yeah, I could not go and be
Anna. Anna is a great name,though, as I'm older now, I love
it because it means MotherMary's M. Mother, you know, but my
(20:29):
mother was no Mother Mary'smother. I must find it sacrilegious.
I can understand that. Verymuch. So in the book, then, I'm assuming
Ann's survival during theHolocaust would be your mother?
Yes.
Yes. What was the mostdifficult part of recounting her
(20:50):
within this? And I'm sure thatthis probably brought up an immense
amount of emotion and angerand resentment and I'm sure a multitude
of emotional aspects. What wasthe most difficult part of recounting
that experience in those experiences?
Yeah. Well, the most difficulttime was remembering it all the time
(21:15):
so that I could make sure thatI retell it. So in my spare time,
which was most the time intransport between school and the
library and Like, I had to beout of the house when the sun came
up, and I couldn't be homeuntil the sun was setting. So I'd
be at the library or on thestreet or if I was running from my
(21:38):
mother and I was in the houseand I locked myself in the bathroom
and I'd be in the bathtub.Hours of that, going over it and
over it again. What. What inthe book I find is very intense,
this is an intense book, isthat I take where she actually goes
through a flashback of asituation where the Nazis killed
(22:05):
a whole slew of people beforemy mother's eyes, and then her going
and perpetrating her violenceagainst me blow by blow. So that
is one of the arcs in thebook. But what I found, and something
(22:28):
I did never expect, is I wrotea second book, a third book. I'm
just waiting for the editor tobe done. But after the second book,
did I realize this was likethe best. The best outcome that I
could possibly have is that Ialways thought my mother didn't tell
(22:50):
me that she loved me. And inreality, after I wrote the book,
did I realize my mother saidit, but she mispronounced it on purpose.
Like, if I would say I loveyou in English, she would say I lurve
you, but in Hungarian, it'simadlak. This means I love you. She'd
(23:14):
never say imadlak. She wouldsay imad luck. She had a hard time
expressing love to me, butwhen I realized that she had said
that I love you just in a. Ina cuckoo way, it made me feel really
good. I mean, I could tell youI got all. I got all choked up about
(23:37):
it, and I got a sense ofwarmth and. And a sense of something
like, fantastic. I neverexpected that to happen.
How do you think the writingthe book, do you think it helped
you to process understandingyour family's history and the impact
of generational orintergenerational trauma? Intergenerational
(23:58):
trauma is an interestingaspect of learning what happens to
us through generations and howwe carry all of those traumas forward,
not just the one previous tous, but several previous tours.
Yes, my artistic greatgrandfather had explosive disorder,
(24:20):
which, yeah, I figured outwhile I was in college reading all
those books about what. Whatwas his problem. But that is what
my mother also had is anexplosive disorder. And there is
a scene, I believe it's in mythird book, where my grandmother
(24:42):
and my mother actually come toblows, is. I'm not sure if it's my
second or my third because I'mlike kind of a little. But he would
just take everything on themantle and just, with one swipe,
knock everything down and justyell. And there was a lot of fear
with the children. They wouldhide in the corner. They only had
(25:05):
a one bedroom, which was noreal bed. It was like an efficiency
today. And he would justholler and holler and holler. He'd
pray five times a day or threetimes sometimes. And he was an orthodox
Jew, but he could not control it.
We said he was 6 foot 8.
(25:27):
It was 6 foot 8. Yes. So hewas a very, very big man.
Yeah. That in itself wouldcreate a very fearful situation,
especially when they get angryand start losing tempers and things.
Yes, yes. I mean, combine thatwith being somebody that was. They
were probably starving. So,you know, when you're hungry, you
get hangry. And I cannotimagine, like a six foot eight man
(25:52):
hungry guy.
Yeah, yeah. That would. Thatwould. Yes, that would create a situation.
I do believe. I do believe. Doyou think Anna's connection to all
knowing is a powerful theme inthe book? Can you explain what that
meant for yourself, actually,and then how it shaped the resilience
(26:18):
and the fortitude that you nowpossess in your life?
Yeah, I could tell you that itwas basically, I could say it was
all that I had and it still istoday, all that I have. But all the.
I've come to find and concludeand realize that all the negative
(26:42):
things that life has pushed meto, and with its tests, I really
find answers, solace, and evena stronger bond, even a stronger
belief. I. I do not. I don'tknow what it is for other people.
I just know that for methere's no doubt that I have a connection.
(27:05):
And without it, I would not beable to have survived without killing
my mother, you know, or beingin jail or having done drugs or turn
to the bottle and look for myhappiness on the bottom of the bottle.
So because I have had whispersto guide me and I. I am. I am happy
(27:31):
with who I am. As far as, youknow, four second goes.
And you should be. And youshould be. Hello, puppy. By the way,
he's going, hey. Hey, how you doing?
I have a ham over here.
I saw. I saw him at the. I sawhim pick up over there. Like, how
are you doing?
(27:52):
How you doing?
Do you think? I knowdisinformation plays a role in shaping
historical narratives and. Andso forth. Do you think. Does your
book challenge misconceptionsabout survival, trauma, and truth?
Especially because it's. It'sa lot of it. Surrounding the Holocaust
and surrounding thepersecution of. Of an entire race
(28:14):
and as well as some of theother intergenerational things. How
do you approach that in thebook? How did you approach that?
How do I. I'm not sure if Iunderstand. You're saying, how do
I approach people that mightsay there was no Holocaust?
Well, no, I mean, the bookitself. Do you. Do you approach that?
That. Because I know thathistorically there's a lot of disinformation
(28:38):
with what's going on. You havethe unique ability of being able
to present a story from apersonal perspective and. And one
that's close to you and yourfamily. From that, do you find it
hard maybe to. Maybe to holdback from trying to over. I won't
(28:58):
say overcompensate because ofthe disinformation, because they're
starting to rear his ugly headagain, unfortunately. Does the book
address that in any way?
You know, I just tell thetruth. I just tell the stories that
I overly overheard over andover and over again. The numbers
(29:18):
that I would see on mygrandmother's arm and my reaction
to it and not. I said, wereyou writing a telephone number on
their arm? I mean, what'swrong with you? That's not even your
phone number. I was fiveyears. Because you never saw it.
We don't discuss this, but shewould, you know, show me different
signs that she would eat agrapefruit and put it on top of her
(29:42):
head, turn it inside out, andshe says, your gr. My father used
to wear a hat like this. Well,I didn't know what she was talking
about until. Yeah, the yarmullater on. Then she'd take a lemon,
do the same thing for a lemon,and put that on top of my head. She
goes, oh, that looks more likethe bump. That's bumps that you have
from your mother. Never mind.We throw that one in the garbage.
(30:05):
So I just say it the way Iheard the stories. And, you know,
I took literature of theHolocaust in college. And it's always
been like writing the book. Ifind since everybody is gone except,
you know, now really everybodyis gone. I only ever got to know
(30:28):
my mother and my grandmotherfor a few years because she passed
away. I feel like I'm spendingtime with family that I never really
got to. And I am servingrespect for people that really need
(30:48):
respect and deserve respectand, you know, get rid of maybe some
misconceptions like somepeople think all Jews have. I don't
know what. And meanwhile,like, I made sure to tell you, my
family was living in theghetto before they circled it. The
ghetto. It was so bad. So,yeah, I just say the truth, and I'm
(31:10):
very authentic. I don't holdanything back.
Yeah. What you. Yeah, andexactly. It's how you should be.
Was there an emotional toll ofwriting such a. Like a raw and personal
story? Like, were the momentsyou felt like stopping? I asked this
because I told you. I, I. Froma domestic violence situation. I.
I worked at domestic violencetask force for like, five, almost
(31:32):
five years straight. Sowatching dysfunction in families
especially, and how thatcarried itself down. I know that
people having to recountstories, it was very. It brought
up where they. They stoppedtalking or they shut down or they.
Did you have any moments like,you felt like stopping?
Well, what I would do is Iwould write the story and. And it
(31:59):
would be, you know, basically,when I write a book, each book is
written over 50 times becauseyou write the story first, and you.
When you read it the secondtime, you're like, what is this?
I didn't fill in anything.It's just basically almost like bullet
points or sentences and thingslike that. And yeah, there's. There
(32:20):
are things that I had to writeabout, more personal that had happened
to me, like in my second bookthat have happened to me that I.
I couldn't even read it atsome time. So I would read. I would
read and redo and work. When Imean redo. I mean, you're massaging
(32:41):
it and getting exact words andfeelings and smells and. And you
want the person to be in yourshoes. That's what makes my book
so intense, because you'resaying, oh, my God, how is this even
true? This can't even be true.It's so unbelievable because I make
(33:02):
the person actually go throughit, you know, and, yeah, there's
times when I've had to skip,like, I know. Chapter too, in the.
My second book. It's so badthat I write it in poetry form, but
it's my personal. I wentthrough a very horrific experience.
(33:22):
And. Yeah, you. I'm. I'm. Ihave a lot of emotions. I have a
lot of sensitivities. I'm nota cold person. Sometimes I wish I
wasn't so sensitive. That isvery difficult for me. But. Yeah.
Well, I'm sure the whispers inyour ear are helping. How did you
(33:45):
come up with Whispers, Sinnersand Saints as a title? That's a very
unique, catchy title, by the way.
Oh, I thank you for that. Iappreciate it. Well, whispers is
the person who speaks. And Isays, you know, I'm just going to
name it after the people thatare the main characters in the book.
Whispers Sinners. Sinners ismy mom and Saint is my grandma. And
(34:06):
that's how I came up with it.Yeah. And anything else I had was
taken.
You write what you know.That's what they tell you, correct?
Yes, Write what you know. Whatdo you hope readers to take away
from Whisper Sinners andSaints, especially those have experienced
trauma or abuse, like for whatyour family has gone through and
(34:27):
what you have gone through.
Okay. Well, I would like tomake sure that I have a philosophy,
and that is one who laughsloudest, masters life the best. And
I would like to say, like ahoneybee sucks the nectar from the
rose, the rose does not witherfrom that. The rose instead continues
(34:52):
to spread beauty andfragrance. So that's what I would
like everybody to. To seemetaphorically, that I think that.
That'S one, One message, onekey message about survival, healing
and perseverance withespecially reading that book. Sounds
(35:13):
to me something. Everybody canget that out of it.
Yes. Yeah. And yeah,absolutely. And then anger, it teaches
forgiveness. So it's veryimportant. And to heal anger, you
need forgiveness. Forgiveness.Forgiveness will heal anger. So anything
that you find that is anegative in your life also people
(35:38):
need to see that it's reallynot as bad as you think it is, even
though it's horrible and youfeel it. But if you say there's got
to be something in this that Ican learn and become better. Not
bitter, then the least therewas a purpose for you having gone
through what you went throughas opposed to just, it's all their
(36:00):
fault. It's their fault. It'stheir this and that. No, you gotta
turn out to be better and not better.
I like that. Better notbitter. I think that's a. What are
you. What a. That's a uniqueapproach to that as well. I've not
heard that before, but I thinkthat that's a. That's a good way
to approach life in general.Better, not bitter. Yeah, because
(36:21):
we can get bitter about a lotof things, especially lately. It's
kind of one of those, you knowabout everywhere you go, there's
road rage or there's somebodyangry or your next door neighbor's
angry or the guy in the carnext year behind you is angry, or
the person in line at thegrocery store angry.
And that's exactly like alittle tap on your shoulder. And
at that exact moment you'resupposed to say, ah, okay, there's
(36:46):
a test. I'm being tested rightnow. What is that test? Why is that
action bothering me? Whyshould that bother me? And within
there is the lesson and.
Whether or not you. Yeah,don't. Don't lash out and smack them.
Yeah. Who's who? You. Likewhat? See, ego gets in the way. Like
(37:08):
what? How dare they bark atme? Or how do they honk their horn
at me? Well, you're just aregular guy. Don't take it personal.
The guy's having a bad day.You just have to say, boy, someone's
having a bad day. And. Andlaugh at it. Just. Ha ha.
Exactly. Exactly. Take it,take it. And again, it's just a great
(37:30):
statement all the way around.How long did it take you write the
book?
It took me. It took me eightmonths to sit down and write the
book.
Yes, yes, you. I know you saidyou've got several. Several out.
(37:50):
But not out yet. The. I'mwaiting for the editor. The second
book coming back. Yeah, andthen I'll get a title this time.
I'll be getting a title veryshortly. I've got a few in the works,
but we have to work on ittogether. I. And I don't want to
say because if I don't getthat one, then somebody else will
steal it and I might want itlater. So. But yeah, and there's
(38:11):
sequels. They. Each book willstand on their own, so you could
read each one separately. Butthis, the second book, is definitely
not as violent. The firstbook, I put the violence in there
because I'm trying to make apoint that, yeah, I am a happy person,
but, you know, all this stuffdid happen to me and here's proof.
(38:33):
And that I've gotten overthese things. And then more and more
it's a continuation of whatreally makes a person, you know,
claircognizant, Clair.Empathic, clairsentient. Claire Tangent,
all those things. Clairaudient.
Well, I think it's anopportunity for us to really understand
(38:56):
more about life withinourselves and what else is out there.
And listen. Listen to thewhispers that we may have and we
may think that this is the flybug in us and just try to, you know,
get away. Get away.
Yeah, definitely. It's like,so if you use it, it'll grow. And
if you don't use it and youjust say, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.
(39:18):
Well, you're missing out. Ithink you're missing out on something
very magical in life.
Your guide will give up and gosit over there and have a cup of
coffee and.
Yeah, don't go somewhere else. Exactly.
How can somebody find Your book?
Well, you can get my bookanywhere, actually. You can go to
(39:39):
any bookstore. It can goanywhere. Spotify. But I like Amazon.
It's just the easiest thing.Order it on Amazon. It's also audible.
I did it myself in audible.I'm very animated, so I had a good
time doing that. And.
And you have the. You have theright accent.
(39:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. I putin the Hungarian accent when that
was necessary, you know.
Exactly, exactly. And yourwebsite, please.
Yes, my website isnancyheart.com which is.
Really easy to remember. Justremember, Nancy, with heart. You
wrote this book with yourheart. So that's an easy way to put
(40:21):
that. I know they can find youon Instagram and a whole bunch of
other social media. They'llall have all of those links in. In
the show notes, as well as ona webpage dedicated specifically
to this episode, including onethat they can click and follow the
link to get your webpage toget your book.
That sounds great. Please do so.
What a wonderful opportunityto be able to share some of your
(40:42):
history, to kind of relivesome of that history to forgive,
which I think is a really goodopportunity. Get better, not bitter.
See, I love that. I'm gonna.I'm gonna. I'm gonna keep saying
that, if you don't mind. Andthen to also allow others to be able
to live through you andunderstand that there are people
that no matter what you'regoing through, there's always hope
(41:04):
at the end of the tunnel. And,you know, you just gotta look for
the light and follow for the light.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
This is one more thing beforeyou go. Before we go, do you have
any words of wisdom?
Sure. Anything that takespower over you teaches to reclaim
your power.
(41:25):
Absolutely brilliant words ofwisdom. I appreciate that. Nancy,
thank you for being on theshow. I appreciate you writing your
book. I appreciate you sharingthat. As I just said a minute ago,
I think that it's anopportunity for us to have a better
understanding of otherpeople's lives and how they might
affect us and how we can usethat as a lesson to move forward
in our own way. So Iappreciate you very much.
(41:49):
I appreciate you too. MichaelHurst, you're very good commentator
and a very good interview.Appreciate you most.
Thank you. Thank you verymuch. For everyone else out there,
thank you very much for beinga part of One More Thing before.
Before you go Community again,Nancy's links will be in the show
notes. Please, like, share,subscribe. And One More Thing before
(42:10):
you all go. Have a great dayand have a great week and thank you
for being here. Thanks forlistening to this episode of One
More Thing. Before you go,check out our website@beforeyougopodcast.com
you can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
Hey, one more thing before yougo. What happens when the trauma
of one generation is passeddown to the next? How do we break
free from cycles of pain andfind healing? We can answer these
questions and more as we havea conversation about a story that
is both heartbreaking andinspiring. A story of survival, trauma,
perseverance, and the searchfor truth. I'm your host, Michael
Hurst. Welcome to One morething before you go away and don't
(00:23):
go away Foreign. My guest isNancy Heart. She's the author of
Whispers, Sinners and Saints.It's a gripping, multi generational
biography that uncovers thedevastating impact of war, abuse,
(00:47):
and disinformation whilehighlighting the resilience of the
human spirit. Nancy's booktakes us through the harrowing experience
of Anne, a Hungarian woman whosurvived the horrors of Nazi persecution
only to carry the weight ofher trauma into motherhood. Her daughter
Anna endured unimaginableabuse, but found salvation through
an omniscient connection. Allknowing. This raw and deeply personal
(01:12):
account forces us to confrontthe lasting effects of generational
trauma and the power ofperseverance. In this episode, we're
going to explore her journeyin writing this book, the truth she
uncovered, and the lessons wecan all take from this extraordinary
story. So stay with us as weuncover the whispers of the past
of sinners who shapeddestinies and saints who offered
(01:34):
hope. And I'm excited aboutthis conversation. Welcome to the
show, Nancy.
Thank you very much. I'mexcited to be here as well.
You know, it is. I have to sayhello to my old home state, Colorado.
So please say hi for mebecause I miss it.
Okay. I will go outside afterthe conversation and I'll wave a
(01:55):
big hello for you.
Wave a big hello. Thank youvery much. I know that you're not
originally from Colorado, butcan you. Can you. Where'd you grow
up?
I grew up in New York City.Manhattan. In the streets of Manhattan.
Far cry from Colorado, huh?
A very far cry from Colorado.And, you know, being out there at
(02:18):
age 3 in New York City and thestreets in the 1960s was not an easy
thing for me. But my mothersaid there's no war tanks out there,
so you're fine.
And it's all perspective,right? It's all perspective.
It depends on how you look atit, you know?
(02:39):
Exactly.
To me, they looked like wartanks. To me, they look. They were
very scary. Yeah.
You know, it, it's. It is.What brought you to. To. What brought
you to Colorado?
Well, my mother always said tome that I was going to end up behind
God's country. So I didn'tbelong in New York City. She'd always
(03:01):
say that to me. And I was. Ijust go a little slower pace. I like
to say hello to a lot ofpeople. I have a different kind of
way to me, and I've traveledthe world and I said, you know, I
just want to go someplacethat's very friendly and easygoing.
(03:22):
And then if I need excitement,I can always go and visit the big
cities, which is great, whichI love, and all the temples and churches
and this and that. But foreveryday life, I love the energy
of the mountains out here.
You know, it's. I have severalfriends that are from New York, and
that's where they ended up,actually. In fact, one of my old
partners, he was a retiredsergeant in. Out of New York City,
(03:46):
and he came out and worked forthe department that I was working
at in Colorado. And he puthimself right up in the middle of
the mountains and he said,this is. I love this. He said, I
miss New York occasionally,but he said, this is it. So welcome.
Welcome to Colorado. That'spretty cool. Your book, I know that
(04:10):
you. You're an author. Whatbrought you to become an author?
I mean, did you. Did youalways grow up wanting to be an author?
Did you want to go to college?Did you want to be a psychologist
or a doctor or.
I knew I was going to write.When I was age 4, I had a experience
with my mother, who was veryabusive. And I had asked this omniscient
(04:34):
being that I'm always con. Incontact with. He's always with me.
I call him Whispers. HenceWhispers. In the book, Sinner was
my mom and the saint was mygrandma. So I did. I had to make
sense of things because mymother just. It didn't make sense
how she always exploded. Andhe said to me, everything will be
(04:56):
all right when I write. Well,I was 4 years old, so it took me
a little bit of pacing up anddown on the street that she threw
me out to from the car outsideof the park to figure out what exactly
is right and right. You know,when you write, you're right. I mean,
(05:17):
of course you're right whenyou write. So r I g h t And then
I realized, oh, there's adifferent kind of writing writing.
So when I write everything,everything will be all right. And
I don't know, but the list,your listeners and yourself, if you
know that spirit kind of talksto you and it has a sense of humor.
(05:42):
So he was definitely rightbecause when, by the Time I wrote,
when I really started writingand I got this book published, my
mother had passed away. So hewas very correct in what he said.
Once I'm right, once I wrotethe book, everything was all right.
Did you go to university? Didyou go to college? Or did you just
go right into writing? That'snot proper English, is it? Right
(06:05):
into writing.
You know, and as long asyou're expressing yourself and you
work on it, it'll come outright. People will understand. I
went to University of Miami. Idid not go for writing. I went for
psychology because I needed tofigure out what was wrong with my
(06:25):
mother. And I'm right.
I'm actually right there withyou. I am.
You're right there with me,are you?
Definitely. Definitely.
I find it very helpful,psychology, you know? Yeah. And then
I had children. I got married.I had to get married. Not because
(06:45):
I got pregnant, but my motherforced me to get married because
she wanted me to get an Mrs.Degree. So I did not want that. I
wanted to get a. I wanted toalways be a doctor because I like
to help people. But I got anMrs. Degree. I raised two children.
They're adults now, and I didvery well with them. So that's. That's
(07:09):
my background, and I'vetraveled the world, and I'm also
a Reiki master. I'm a healer.You know, I. I'm very. My gifts are
well rounded. I'm wellrounded. And I'm also clairvoyant,
so clairaudient. That's myconnection with Whispers, because
he actually talks to me in myright ear, not my left one, only
(07:30):
my right ear.
Well, I mean, I think that initself is a gift. You know, I've
talked to a lot of people onthe show that. That are clairaudient.
Claire. Claire. They'reeverything. They're medium from all
perspectives. And some of themdo all of the senses, not just one
or two. Some have called itnot necessarily a curse, but a burden,
(07:53):
and others have said it was agift. And, you know, I personally,
I think that connection withthe metaphysical, that connection
with the other side, thatconnection with that omniscience.
President. President. Excuseme. Presence is like, to me, it's
a gift because you. You haveinsight that others don't have. You
have the. You have guidance,you know, on a consistent basis.
(08:17):
Somebody that's like, you haveright there whispers in your ear.
So that's pretty interesting.I know that your book Whispers Sinners
and Saints, it's a. It's adeeply personal thing in the Spanish
generations, kind of whatinspired you to write this? Is there
intergenerational traumawithin your story?
(08:38):
Oh yes. I mean it's theirstories within the stories. Each,
each chapter is a story. Andthen about the multi generational.
I go back to pretty much mymother's grandmother and even before
that her. So my mother's greatgrandmother and how she affected
(09:04):
how that it was that theylived. It's really interesting because
my great grandmother, mygreat, her great grandmother grew
up and lived in Hungary. Andher husband was from Poland. And
the horse, he was a travelingsalesman, like from the real original
(09:30):
traveling salesman's. He had ahorse and he would tie everything
onto the horse and betweenPoland and Hungary travel with the
wares that he would beselling. He once he sold some of
this is put in your order andthen he'd go back and forth. And
one day the horse died inHungary. So he wound up marrying
(09:51):
the prettiest girl in thevillage and opened up a first general
store in the area. So shegrew, the wife had everything. Because
having a general store backthen you did very well. That's, you
had everything. You, you know,clothes, food, all that. So her,
his children. One of them wasmy mother's grandmother. She grew
(10:16):
up not knowing how to doanything because they always thought
that she was going to getmarried and do well because they
had dignitaries and they haveall kinds of titles back then in
Hungary they'd all seek outour hand. But they did not allow
her to marry the man that shewanted to marry. And then one day
(10:40):
she turned 28 and she said,okay, the guy that I wanted to marry
gave up on me now and gotmarried. So I'm just getting the
first guy that comes to thedoor because at that, at those days,
28 years spinster. And shesaid, I'm just gonna get out of here.
So in knocks on the door is mygreat grandpa to be. And he was a
(11:05):
6 foot 8 artist. He wascommissioned to draw, make a portrait
for somebody at a big mansionin Vienna. And he saw my great and
great grandmother's picture onthe wall and said, oh my God, I'm
going to marry this beauty.And he carried this picture, this
(11:28):
little small picture in his,in his little pocket. And when Regina
was her name, when sheanswered the door, it was very strange
because she was not the younggirl that was in the picture. So
he goes, oh no, I don'tunderstand this. But she says, well,
come on in. And then hemarried her for the money. He said,
(11:53):
oh, all these nice things hereI can have the Life that I want.
I'm artist, distraordinaire.Well, her family disowned her. And
then because he did not comeup to par, they had eloped and gotten
married. And so the nextgeneration struggled in poverty.
(12:15):
They were in the ghetto beforethe ghetto was marked the ghetto
by Hitler's people in Hungary.And so she didn't know how to cook.
She didn't know how to clean.It was. She had, like, six children.
One I think she lost through amiscarriage. But three people eating
(12:38):
one potato every night. Theycouldn't even afford the butter.
It was terrible squalor. Andthen my grandmother wound up being.
What do you call that? Rousedout and taken to Auschwitz. And all
(12:59):
the men were already gone. Andmy mother was left behind. She was
about 11 or 12, like aroundthat age. And she was. She was. My
grandmother was very smartbecause she saw that times were changing.
So she got her baptism papers.Her daughter. She got her daughter
(13:19):
baptism papers. So my motherwould go in and out of the con. Not
the concentration camp, the.The gates of the ghetto, and take
care of her grandmother, whowas very, very skinny and dying of
hunger. And. But that kind of.Then on top of that, what really,
(13:44):
I think played a part in my.In my mother's not being well was
she was an illegitimate childborn in the depression in 1932. So
it was very, very bad. On topof being Jewish. The Jewish part
was. Was fine until Hitlercame around. But it was very hard.
(14:08):
And I think it. I think it. I.I don't know. I. Like, one day I'll
feel like this. Sometimes I'llfeel a different way. Because if
she wasn't the tough cookie,she was. If she wasn't, she was very,
like, very tough. Like, theteacher told her to pull her boots
(14:30):
off in first grade. And mymother, which was very common back
then, that's how you showedrespect in Europe. Anyway, the teacher
would sit down, lift her legand show the boot and say, remove
my shoes. And everybody didit. And my mother said, what are
you, crippled? Take it off yourself.
(14:52):
Sounds like my grandmother actually.
Does it. Yeah.
Yeah. That's reallyinteresting. How does that follow?
I mean, is this. How does thatcorrelate with the book? I know that
we follow Anna and her motherand both through unimaginable trauma
and resilience. Is it closelyrelated to this particular story?
(15:12):
Is this biographical? How doesthis relate to the book?
Yeah, that story is withinthat book. And I actually was born
Anna. My mother didn't knowwhat they were saying to her. And
when they were asking hername, so she was Anna. And then at
5 years old, I said, I'm notdoing this anymore. My name's Nancy.
(15:33):
And I just wouldn't answerher. Whatever she did, I didn't care
if she beat me. I justwouldn't answer it. She said, Nancy.
Then I answered her. So Iguess I have a little stubbornness
in me too, but I kind of gotfed up with running back and forth.
My grandmother came out toAmerica and I write all this in the,
(15:55):
in the, in the book. But whenshe came out, I was five and I was
really like about the firsttime I started to eat because my
mother was highly negligent asa, well, as abusive. And you know,
I, I mean, I didn't even knowhow to eat. I, I ate like an animal.
(16:17):
My grandmother had to teach mehow to eat. Nobody would sit and
eat with me. Yeah, it was, itwas, it was very hard. But what I
had to get over was knowingthat my mother hates me. From day
number one from, from themoment she saw me, she would tell
me from being very young thatI'm. She, she, she tried to send
(16:41):
me back, but they wouldn'tlet, they wouldn't let her send me
back. She said it. She, shedidn't want me. She wanted a pickle
in the middle. That's the wayshe put it. And she didn't get the
pickle in the middle. Shewanted a boy.
I gotcha. Gotcha. Thegentlemanly way of saying that she's.
(17:04):
Always like, it's a sandwichor something. But.
You know, it's interesting, Ithink, I think that those of us that
have grown up in, I won't sayin that kind of environment that
grew up in a. I, I was adomestic violence cop for a long
(17:27):
time. In fact, because of it,they grew up. I grew up with a very
dysfunctional family myself.And in growing up as a dysfunctional
family, you recognize it moreand more, especially when you go
into other houses. So thatallowed me a better observation,
perspective as a policeofficer when I worked at domestic
violence task force and peopledon't always understand domest domestic
violence is not just physicalall the time, it's mental, mental
(17:51):
and physical in that if it'sperpetually put upon you and you're
perpetually in thatenvironment, I know that sometimes
it comes unbearable and toeven survive within that environment.
So kudos first for coming outof it and wanting to make your own
way and being able to makesomething positive of your life because
(18:13):
that's where you've come tothis point here. You've written this
book that's shared, and youbecame a parent yourself, and your
kids are grown, and you'vemade a life for yourself in a very
positive way. So I appreciatethat. In changing your name from
Anna to Nancy, do you thinkthat just gave you more confidence
(18:35):
and fortitude and strength tobe able to survive through all that?
Yeah, it's a good question.So, because my mother was Anna, I
did not like my mother. Iloved her. Don't get me wrong, I
loved my mother, but I wasnothing like my mother. And she would
always say to everybody, wedon't look anything alike. We're
(18:56):
nothing alike. She's nothinglike me. So I said, you know, why
would I want to have her name?And then when I would, my middle
name was Clara, which was mygrandmother's name. But they would
call each other, you know, tocome over here, come over here. And
I would show up, and then Iwould hear, no, not you, the other
(19:19):
one. And after a while, therewas just so much I could take of
that. So Nancy happened to bethe pretty Girl on the Edge of Night
soap opera that my motherwatched. And I had figured out that's
the name I want. But I had todo it in a timely fashion. The. And
(19:44):
I had to lead her intothinking that she thought of the
name. And I had to ask onlywhen it was in commercial time. So,
you know, at age 5, my motherwas already teaching me, like, you
know, clear empathy. Like, Ican feel people's emotions and, like,
(20:08):
know when is the right time tosay something. When is not the right
time to say something. It's.But, yeah, I could not go and be
Anna. Anna is a great name,though, as I'm older now, I love
it because it means MotherMary's M. Mother, you know, but my
(20:29):
mother was no Mother Mary'smother. I must find it sacrilegious.
I can understand that. Verymuch. So in the book, then, I'm assuming
Ann's survival during theHolocaust would be your mother?
Yes.
Yes. What was the mostdifficult part of recounting her
(20:50):
within this? And I'm sure thatthis probably brought up an immense
amount of emotion and angerand resentment and I'm sure a multitude
of emotional aspects. What wasthe most difficult part of recounting
that experience in those experiences?
Yeah. Well, the most difficulttime was remembering it all the time
(21:15):
so that I could make sure thatI retell it. So in my spare time,
which was most the time intransport between school and the
library and Like, I had to beout of the house when the sun came
up, and I couldn't be homeuntil the sun was setting. So I'd
be at the library or on thestreet or if I was running from my
(21:38):
mother and I was in the houseand I locked myself in the bathroom
and I'd be in the bathtub.Hours of that, going over it and
over it again. What. What inthe book I find is very intense,
this is an intense book, isthat I take where she actually goes
through a flashback of asituation where the Nazis killed
(22:05):
a whole slew of people beforemy mother's eyes, and then her going
and perpetrating her violenceagainst me blow by blow. So that
is one of the arcs in thebook. But what I found, and something
(22:28):
I did never expect, is I wrotea second book, a third book. I'm
just waiting for the editor tobe done. But after the second book,
did I realize this was likethe best. The best outcome that I
could possibly have is that Ialways thought my mother didn't tell
(22:50):
me that she loved me. And inreality, after I wrote the book,
did I realize my mother saidit, but she mispronounced it on purpose.
Like, if I would say I loveyou in English, she would say I lurve
you, but in Hungarian, it'simadlak. This means I love you. She'd
(23:14):
never say imadlak. She wouldsay imad luck. She had a hard time
expressing love to me, butwhen I realized that she had said
that I love you just in a. Ina cuckoo way, it made me feel really
good. I mean, I could tell youI got all. I got all choked up about
(23:37):
it, and I got a sense ofwarmth and. And a sense of something
like, fantastic. I neverexpected that to happen.
How do you think the writingthe book, do you think it helped
you to process understandingyour family's history and the impact
of generational orintergenerational trauma? Intergenerational
(23:58):
trauma is an interestingaspect of learning what happens to
us through generations and howwe carry all of those traumas forward,
not just the one previous tous, but several previous tours.
Yes, my artistic greatgrandfather had explosive disorder,
(24:20):
which, yeah, I figured outwhile I was in college reading all
those books about what. Whatwas his problem. But that is what
my mother also had is anexplosive disorder. And there is
a scene, I believe it's in mythird book, where my grandmother
(24:42):
and my mother actually come toblows, is. I'm not sure if it's my
second or my third because I'mlike kind of a little. But he would
just take everything on themantle and just, with one swipe,
knock everything down and justyell. And there was a lot of fear
with the children. They wouldhide in the corner. They only had
(25:05):
a one bedroom, which was noreal bed. It was like an efficiency
today. And he would justholler and holler and holler. He'd
pray five times a day or threetimes sometimes. And he was an orthodox
Jew, but he could not control it.
We said he was 6 foot 8.
(25:27):
It was 6 foot 8. Yes. So hewas a very, very big man.
Yeah. That in itself wouldcreate a very fearful situation,
especially when they get angryand start losing tempers and things.
Yes, yes. I mean, combine thatwith being somebody that was. They
were probably starving. So,you know, when you're hungry, you
get hangry. And I cannotimagine, like a six foot eight man
(25:52):
hungry guy.
Yeah, yeah. That would. Thatwould. Yes, that would create a situation.
I do believe. I do believe. Doyou think Anna's connection to all
knowing is a powerful theme inthe book? Can you explain what that
meant for yourself, actually,and then how it shaped the resilience
(26:18):
and the fortitude that you nowpossess in your life?
Yeah, I could tell you that itwas basically, I could say it was
all that I had and it still istoday, all that I have. But all the.
I've come to find and concludeand realize that all the negative
(26:42):
things that life has pushed meto, and with its tests, I really
find answers, solace, and evena stronger bond, even a stronger
belief. I. I do not. I don'tknow what it is for other people.
I just know that for methere's no doubt that I have a connection.
(27:05):
And without it, I would not beable to have survived without killing
my mother, you know, or beingin jail or having done drugs or turn
to the bottle and look for myhappiness on the bottom of the bottle.
So because I have had whispersto guide me and I. I am. I am happy
(27:31):
with who I am. As far as, youknow, four second goes.
And you should be. And youshould be. Hello, puppy. By the way,
he's going, hey. Hey, how you doing?
I have a ham over here.
I saw. I saw him at the. I sawhim pick up over there. Like, how
are you doing?
(27:52):
How you doing?
Do you think? I knowdisinformation plays a role in shaping
historical narratives and. Andso forth. Do you think. Does your
book challenge misconceptionsabout survival, trauma, and truth?
Especially because it's. It'sa lot of it. Surrounding the Holocaust
and surrounding thepersecution of. Of an entire race
(28:14):
and as well as some of theother intergenerational things. How
do you approach that in thebook? How did you approach that?
How do I. I'm not sure if Iunderstand. You're saying, how do
I approach people that mightsay there was no Holocaust?
Well, no, I mean, the bookitself. Do you. Do you approach that?
That. Because I know thathistorically there's a lot of disinformation
(28:38):
with what's going on. You havethe unique ability of being able
to present a story from apersonal perspective and. And one
that's close to you and yourfamily. From that, do you find it
hard maybe to. Maybe to holdback from trying to over. I won't
(28:58):
say overcompensate because ofthe disinformation, because they're
starting to rear his ugly headagain, unfortunately. Does the book
address that in any way?
You know, I just tell thetruth. I just tell the stories that
I overly overheard over andover and over again. The numbers
(29:18):
that I would see on mygrandmother's arm and my reaction
to it and not. I said, wereyou writing a telephone number on
their arm? I mean, what'swrong with you? That's not even your
phone number. I was fiveyears. Because you never saw it.
We don't discuss this, but shewould, you know, show me different
signs that she would eat agrapefruit and put it on top of her
(29:42):
head, turn it inside out, andshe says, your gr. My father used
to wear a hat like this. Well,I didn't know what she was talking
about until. Yeah, the yarmullater on. Then she'd take a lemon,
do the same thing for a lemon,and put that on top of my head. She
goes, oh, that looks more likethe bump. That's bumps that you have
from your mother. Never mind.We throw that one in the garbage.
(30:05):
So I just say it the way Iheard the stories. And, you know,
I took literature of theHolocaust in college. And it's always
been like writing the book. Ifind since everybody is gone except,
you know, now really everybodyis gone. I only ever got to know
(30:28):
my mother and my grandmotherfor a few years because she passed
away. I feel like I'm spendingtime with family that I never really
got to. And I am servingrespect for people that really need
(30:48):
respect and deserve respectand, you know, get rid of maybe some
misconceptions like somepeople think all Jews have. I don't
know what. And meanwhile,like, I made sure to tell you, my
family was living in theghetto before they circled it. The
ghetto. It was so bad. So,yeah, I just say the truth, and I'm
(31:10):
very authentic. I don't holdanything back.
Yeah. What you. Yeah, andexactly. It's how you should be.
Was there an emotional toll ofwriting such a. Like a raw and personal
story? Like, were the momentsyou felt like stopping? I asked this
because I told you. I, I. Froma domestic violence situation. I.
I worked at domestic violencetask force for like, five, almost
(31:32):
five years straight. Sowatching dysfunction in families
especially, and how thatcarried itself down. I know that
people having to recountstories, it was very. It brought
up where they. They stoppedtalking or they shut down or they.
Did you have any moments like,you felt like stopping?
Well, what I would do is Iwould write the story and. And it
(31:59):
would be, you know, basically,when I write a book, each book is
written over 50 times becauseyou write the story first, and you.
When you read it the secondtime, you're like, what is this?
I didn't fill in anything.It's just basically almost like bullet
points or sentences and thingslike that. And yeah, there's. There
(32:20):
are things that I had to writeabout, more personal that had happened
to me, like in my second bookthat have happened to me that I.
I couldn't even read it atsome time. So I would read. I would
read and redo and work. When Imean redo. I mean, you're massaging
(32:41):
it and getting exact words andfeelings and smells and. And you
want the person to be in yourshoes. That's what makes my book
so intense, because you'resaying, oh, my God, how is this even
true? This can't even be true.It's so unbelievable because I make
(33:02):
the person actually go throughit, you know, and, yeah, there's
times when I've had to skip,like, I know. Chapter too, in the.
My second book. It's so badthat I write it in poetry form, but
it's my personal. I wentthrough a very horrific experience.
(33:22):
And. Yeah, you. I'm. I'm. Ihave a lot of emotions. I have a
lot of sensitivities. I'm nota cold person. Sometimes I wish I
wasn't so sensitive. That isvery difficult for me. But. Yeah.
Well, I'm sure the whispers inyour ear are helping. How did you
(33:45):
come up with Whispers, Sinnersand Saints as a title? That's a very
unique, catchy title, by the way.
Oh, I thank you for that. Iappreciate it. Well, whispers is
the person who speaks. And Isays, you know, I'm just going to
name it after the people thatare the main characters in the book.
Whispers Sinners. Sinners ismy mom and Saint is my grandma. And
(34:06):
that's how I came up with it.Yeah. And anything else I had was
taken.
You write what you know.That's what they tell you, correct?
Yes, Write what you know. Whatdo you hope readers to take away
from Whisper Sinners andSaints, especially those have experienced
trauma or abuse, like for whatyour family has gone through and
(34:27):
what you have gone through.
Okay. Well, I would like tomake sure that I have a philosophy,
and that is one who laughsloudest, masters life the best. And
I would like to say, like ahoneybee sucks the nectar from the
rose, the rose does not witherfrom that. The rose instead continues
(34:52):
to spread beauty andfragrance. So that's what I would
like everybody to. To seemetaphorically, that I think that.
That'S one, One message, onekey message about survival, healing
and perseverance withespecially reading that book. Sounds
(35:13):
to me something. Everybody canget that out of it.
Yes. Yeah. And yeah,absolutely. And then anger, it teaches
forgiveness. So it's veryimportant. And to heal anger, you
need forgiveness. Forgiveness.Forgiveness will heal anger. So anything
that you find that is anegative in your life also people
(35:38):
need to see that it's reallynot as bad as you think it is, even
though it's horrible and youfeel it. But if you say there's got
to be something in this that Ican learn and become better. Not
bitter, then the least therewas a purpose for you having gone
through what you went throughas opposed to just, it's all their
(36:00):
fault. It's their fault. It'stheir this and that. No, you gotta
turn out to be better and not better.
I like that. Better notbitter. I think that's a. What are
you. What a. That's a uniqueapproach to that as well. I've not
heard that before, but I thinkthat that's a. That's a good way
to approach life in general.Better, not bitter. Yeah, because
(36:21):
we can get bitter about a lotof things, especially lately. It's
kind of one of those, you knowabout everywhere you go, there's
road rage or there's somebodyangry or your next door neighbor's
angry or the guy in the carnext year behind you is angry, or
the person in line at thegrocery store angry.
And that's exactly like alittle tap on your shoulder. And
at that exact moment you'resupposed to say, ah, okay, there's
(36:46):
a test. I'm being tested rightnow. What is that test? Why is that
action bothering me? Whyshould that bother me? And within
there is the lesson and.
Whether or not you. Yeah,don't. Don't lash out and smack them.
Yeah. Who's who? You. Likewhat? See, ego gets in the way. Like
(37:08):
what? How dare they bark atme? Or how do they honk their horn
at me? Well, you're just aregular guy. Don't take it personal.
The guy's having a bad day.You just have to say, boy, someone's
having a bad day. And. Andlaugh at it. Just. Ha ha.
Exactly. Exactly. Take it,take it. And again, it's just a great
(37:30):
statement all the way around.How long did it take you write the
book?
It took me. It took me eightmonths to sit down and write the
book.
Yes, yes, you. I know you saidyou've got several. Several out.
(37:50):
But not out yet. The. I'mwaiting for the editor. The second
book coming back. Yeah, andthen I'll get a title this time.
I'll be getting a title veryshortly. I've got a few in the works,
but we have to work on ittogether. I. And I don't want to
say because if I don't getthat one, then somebody else will
steal it and I might want itlater. So. But yeah, and there's
(38:11):
sequels. They. Each book willstand on their own, so you could
read each one separately. Butthis, the second book, is definitely
not as violent. The firstbook, I put the violence in there
because I'm trying to make apoint that, yeah, I am a happy person,
but, you know, all this stuffdid happen to me and here's proof.
(38:33):
And that I've gotten overthese things. And then more and more
it's a continuation of whatreally makes a person, you know,
claircognizant, Clair.Empathic, clairsentient. Claire Tangent,
all those things. Clairaudient.
Well, I think it's anopportunity for us to really understand
(38:56):
more about life withinourselves and what else is out there.
And listen. Listen to thewhispers that we may have and we
may think that this is the flybug in us and just try to, you know,
get away. Get away.
Yeah, definitely. It's like,so if you use it, it'll grow. And
if you don't use it and youjust say, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.
(39:18):
Well, you're missing out. Ithink you're missing out on something
very magical in life.
Your guide will give up and gosit over there and have a cup of
coffee and.
Yeah, don't go somewhere else. Exactly.
How can somebody find Your book?
Well, you can get my bookanywhere, actually. You can go to
(39:39):
any bookstore. It can goanywhere. Spotify. But I like Amazon.
It's just the easiest thing.Order it on Amazon. It's also audible.
I did it myself in audible.I'm very animated, so I had a good
time doing that. And.
And you have the. You have theright accent.
(39:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. I putin the Hungarian accent when that
was necessary, you know.
Exactly, exactly. And yourwebsite, please.
Yes, my website isnancyheart.com which is.
Really easy to remember. Justremember, Nancy, with heart. You
wrote this book with yourheart. So that's an easy way to put
(40:21):
that. I know they can find youon Instagram and a whole bunch of
other social media. They'llall have all of those links in. In
the show notes, as well as ona webpage dedicated specifically
to this episode, including onethat they can click and follow the
link to get your webpage toget your book.
That sounds great. Please do so.
What a wonderful opportunityto be able to share some of your
(40:42):
history, to kind of relivesome of that history to forgive,
which I think is a really goodopportunity. Get better, not bitter.
See, I love that. I'm gonna.I'm gonna. I'm gonna keep saying
that, if you don't mind. Andthen to also allow others to be able
to live through you andunderstand that there are people
that no matter what you'regoing through, there's always hope
(41:04):
at the end of the tunnel. And,you know, you just gotta look for
the light and follow for the light.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
This is one more thing beforeyou go. Before we go, do you have
any words of wisdom?
Sure. Anything that takespower over you teaches to reclaim
your power.
(41:25):
Absolutely brilliant words ofwisdom. I appreciate that. Nancy,
thank you for being on theshow. I appreciate you writing your
book. I appreciate you sharingthat. As I just said a minute ago,
I think that it's anopportunity for us to have a better
understanding of otherpeople's lives and how they might
affect us and how we can usethat as a lesson to move forward
in our own way. So Iappreciate you very much.
(41:49):
I appreciate you too. MichaelHurst, you're very good commentator
and a very good interview.Appreciate you most.
Thank you. Thank you verymuch. For everyone else out there,
thank you very much for beinga part of One More Thing before.
Before you go Community again,Nancy's links will be in the show
notes. Please, like, share,subscribe. And One More Thing before
(42:10):
you all go. Have a great dayand have a great week and thank you
for being here. Thanks forlistening to this episode of One
More Thing. Before you go,check out our website@beforeyougopodcast.com
you can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
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