Exploring the Intersection of Pop Culture and Storytelling

Pop culture, movies, sports, and politics profoundly influence the narratives we construct, shaping both the content and the context of storytelling in contemporary society. In our dialogue with John David, a debut author with extensive experience in public relations and crisis communications, we delve into how these elements intertwine to craft compelling and socially relevant narratives.

John's debut mystery novel, *The Bystander*, has garnered critical acclaim, including the Page Turner Award and recognition as a finalist for prestigious literary honors. He draws upon his rich background as a public relations consultant and corporate ghostwriter to infuse authenticity into his fiction, illustrating how real-world experiences can enhance narrative depth.

Join us as we explore the intricate relationship between storytelling and societal influences, offering insights that inspire both aspiring writers and avid readers alike.

Takeaways:

• The intersection of pop culture, sports, movies, and politics profoundly influences storytelling methods and narratives.
• John David's extensive public relations career informs his approach to creating socially relevant mystery fiction.
• The Bystander not only entertains but also explores contemporary societal issues, making it a reflection of current events.
• A career in crisis communications equips writers with a unique perspective essential for crafting compelling narratives.
• Insights shared in this episode emphasize the importance of real-world experiences in shaping fictional storytelling.
• The evolving landscape of media consumption challenges authors to adapt their writing to the fast-paced demands of modern readers.

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hey, one More Thing before yougo. How do pop culture, movies, sports,
and politics shape the waystories are told? And how does a
career in PR and crisiscommunications prepare someone to
write a mystery novel that'sboth entertaining and socially relevant?
Today, we're going to answer afew of those questions and many more
when we explore a conversationwith debut author John David. Stay

(00:23):
tuned. I'm your host, MichaelHirsch. Welcome to One more thing
before you go. Today we'rejoined by John David. He's a longtime
public relations and crisiscommunications consultant. He's a

(00:44):
corporate ghostwriter and theauthor of a nonfiction book, how
to protect or destroy yourreputation online. His debut mystery
novel, the Bystander, wasreleased by tool Publishing in September
2025 and has already won thePage Turner Award for mystery novels,
been long listed for the BPAfirst novel award, and named a finalist
for the Story Trade BookAward. John is also a member of the

(01:05):
International Thriller Writersdebut Author program. When he's not
writing, he enjoys fishing,talking politics, and following the
Florida Gators. Today we'lldive into pop culture, movies, sports
and politics and theirinfluence upon a creative output
and what his journey can teachus about storytelling in today's
world. Welcome to the show, John.

(01:28):
Thank you for having me,Michael. I really appreciate it.
Great introduction.
Thank you. So you earned it.Definitely earned it. I love this
podcast because I have greatconversation with people like you
and what you've created, whereyou've come from and what you're
bringing to the world and whatyou're sharing with the world. But

(01:50):
I always like to start at thebeginning because I know every creative
journey begins with a spark,but it also starts. But the beginning.
Where'd you grow up?
I was born in western New Yorkin Buffalo, New York. So I lived
there until I was 10 yearsold. And it was, you know, it was

(02:10):
in the end of the night. I wasborn in the end of the 1970s. My,
the economy in Buffalo, NewYork wasn't so hot and my father
was, had spent his lifetimeliving in the, in the cold weather
and decided to move toFlorida. And so when I was 10 years
old, I moved to, I moved toMiami, Florida. And I always tell

(02:32):
people I got a, I got alifetime's worth of snow in 10 years
living in Buffalo, New York,which was a great place to be a kid
and a great place to grow up.But then I made the big shift, as
big a shift as you can, as youcan in the US And I, I went to, went
to the, went to sunny and hotand Steamy, muggy South Florida.

(02:57):
I, I grew up in Colorado, so Iknow it's not as cold as Buffalo
in the wintertime, but welived at about 8,500ft up behind
Pikes Peak. The front, ourfront yards was the backside of Pikes
Peak, so we got 30 inch snowsin May.
Sure.
Those kind of things. So I, Ican feel you. Definitely. That's

(03:21):
why we moved to Arizona when,when I retired from the police department,
we came down here to where itwas like a lot warmer and there is
no snow. Right.
A lot drier. Yeah. My son, Myson was a. My son was a Boy Scout.
I was actually a scout leader.My son Eagle Scout. And they went
to. They would. They went toPikes Peak in the summer. And as

(03:44):
part of. There was anadventure camping thing they went
to in New Mexico and theystopped in Pikes Peak and they went
up there and they actually, Ithink, I think that was where my
son first saw snow, which wasPikes Peak in like June. Yeah, it
was over something like that.Or May or it was like, like he first
saw snow in Pikes Peak inJune, Something like that. It's pretty

(04:06):
cool.
It's interesting because theyhad to. They do the Pikes Peak hill
climb there and with race carsand it's like an international race.
And they've had to, at leastwhen I was still there and I think
they have since there were afew times where they actually had
to postpone the race becauseit snowed in July. In the first week
of July.
Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. So myrecollection is right. Yeah, the

(04:30):
boys went up there and thenthey rode. I guess they took a bus
up there and then they ridebikes, coast down and they start
off with like heavy, heavycoats on. And then every couple miles
they stop and peel off a layer.
Yeah, I don't miss those days.
I didn't, I didn't go, but I,I got the whole report. Cool place.
Yeah, it is very, very muchso. I loved it. I loved it. You were

(04:52):
in pr. How'd you get involvedin pr?
So I studied. I studiedjournalism when I was in college
and I actually majored inpublic relations at the University
of Florida. And that was my,that's what I studied. I was always
a writer my whole, my wholelife. And I study. I was in the College
of Journalism at theUniversity of Florida and I studied

(05:12):
public relations and I got outof school and I went hunting for
a job and I found myself as a,as a public relations consultant.
And I did that and I'm stilldoing that. It's still my, you know,
my primary career working incommunications and public relations,
marketing, that whole world.But that's, but I was a, I was a
day to day publicist, youknow, for gosh, 25 plus plus years,

(05:36):
you know, pitching stories toreporters, journalists all around
the country, local news,national news, radio, tv, cable tv,
you name it.
I, I appreciate that. I, I'vedealt with a lot of, I did two film
festivals and somescreenwriting conferences. So I had
a public relations managerthat worked with us very well. So
I respect what you guys do asa journalist. Pers viewpoint. My

(06:00):
father was a journalist and Igrew up in a newsroom. Actually it
was one of those things where,you know, he would bring me to work
and as a young child, and thisis back when they had typewriters,
didn't have computers yet. Soyou'd hear, see 50 desk all around
the room and everybody just,it's all you could hear.

(06:22):
Yeah, yeah. Then I got, yeah,then it got really quiet once the
word processor started. When Iwas in journalism school, I mean
I learned how to type on amanual typewriter when I was in junior
junior high. And then when Iwas in journalism school, we, we
had the weed out. Class injournalism was called reporting.
It's like reporting 3000 orsomething like that. And when I took

(06:45):
it, I was one of the lastgroup that had this experience was
they would, we hadtypewriters, manual, I'm sorry, electric
typewriters, IBM Selectrictypewriters. And so the assignment
would be, you have five,here's a, here are the facts. You
know, you have five minutes towrite the lead paragraph of a news
story. And like the report,the professor would walk over to

(07:05):
the wall and he would flip aswitch and the typewriters would
turn on and then he would, hewould look at his watch, he goes,
hey, okay, you got fiveminutes. And you'd have to write,
type out and format, you know,the lead paragraph of the news story
in five minutes. Because afterfive minutes he would go to the wall
and turn the switch offinternal and turn the typewriters
off. Oh, and that was, thatwas, that was, that was, that was

(07:27):
my introduction, one of myintroductions to, you know, deadline,
real like deadline pressure,you know, of, of in the, in my academic,
in the academic world.
Oh, that's brilliant. That'sbrilliant. It's better than pencils
down.
Right, right, right.
Kind of a thing. And you'restill trying to squeeze stuff.
Yeah, there was no, yeah,there was no last second you know,

(07:48):
I mean, you know, may, youknow, they, maybe they gave us, you
know, a minute or something ifwe wanted to, like, mark it up and
try to fix it a little bit,you know, like using the proper corrections.
But basically it was, you gotto do this in five minutes or you're
done.
Yeah. Crazy cool days. Whatfirst inspired you to write the Bystander

(08:08):
After? I mean, you've had anamazing career already and like my
father, he always had thatnovel deep down inside.
Yeah, I, I, I, I, I, I'vethought about that. I, I never, I'd
never really written anyfiction. I, I read a lot of fiction
when I was younger. And sowhen I was single, you know, I, I
was, I was a kind of, I wasn'ta, I wasn't a book a week guy. I

(08:31):
was kind of like a couplebooks a month guy. And I read lots
of thrillers and, you know,mystery novels and things like that.
Heavily influenced by, youknow, John Gr. Down here. Guy named
Carl Hiason is pretty, prettyfamous writer. And. But then I got
married, I had kids, and, youknow, life changes. And I really

(08:55):
didn't read a lot of fictionfor a long time. You know, my kind
of, My golf game went away andmy fiction reading kind of went away
at the same, the same time.And, and then after my kids went
to college and I had a littlemore time and I was, I was, I was
listening to, I startedlistening to audiobooks on, you know,
when I was exercising in themorning, and I kind of re, you know,

(09:18):
reacquainted myself withmystery novels. And then I just had
a, about three years ago, Ihad an idea for, for, for a novel
and I started doing it. And itwas an actual incident that happened
that inspired me to, you know,just to start writing. And. So, so

(09:40):
that was that, that's whathappened. It was like I, I was, I,
I worked on a, I had an ideafor a novel, you know, 25 years ago,
but it was, it was, it was a,it was, wasn't very, it wasn't very
good. I wrote, I wrote a few,I wrote a few pages. It wasn't very
good. So I think that, I thinkthat improved my craft, I think is

(10:01):
what I improved my ability towrite over the, over my, my, during
my, my business career, whichhelped, which helped.
You saw your background incrisis communication. How did your
background in crisiscommunication and your journalism
shape your approach tostorytelling? Because obviously,
from a, from a PR perspectiveor journalistic perspective, you're,

(10:22):
you're doing facts and you'redoing. You're presenting things in
a different way than, thanstorytelling a novel.
Yeah. I think that for me, mymain character in the Bystander is
the television reporter. AndI've, I've worked with hundreds of
reporters and journalistsduring my career and I've like close

(10:43):
friends of mine who are, whoare, who are reporters. And you know,
there's, I've, you know, folksI've worked with who are friends
of mine, you know, on cnn,work for the Wall Street Journal,
work with the New York Times,those types of places. And so I have
a pretty good understanding ofthat world. And so that's where my
kind of main character camefrom. And then my perspective on

(11:07):
the world is, is, is, isdrawn, you know, from, from my, from
my business career. And I'vebeen through on, you know, on, on
the one side or another of, ofsome really interesting stories,
you know, and so that's helpedme, helped me a lot is that that's,
you know, I've, I've, I've,I've drawn on people I've met and
personalities and individualswho I've come across and, and, and

(11:31):
weaved weave those sort ofthings into, into my, into my, my
books, which.
Is, I think it's a positivething because you, you, for me, it
creates more of a realistic orauthentic background basically, in
regard to, to creating yourstory, to creating something and
moving it forward. You and I,looking at your background. Speaking

(11:56):
of that, I had read thatyou're like a movie buff as well
as a sports fan. I lovemovies. I've got a collection of
about 3,000 that go way backto old movies, all the way to present.
That's great. How's your moviebuff in your sports fan aspects?

(12:17):
You know, how those passionsinfluence the creative voice.
Yeah, I think I'm, I'm a bigmovie, a movie movie guy. So, you
know, and I think I, you know,I like, I watch, I like, I like to
watch movies. I'm not reallylike a cinematic critique guy, but
I like, you know, really agood story and you know, good twisty

(12:39):
tale, I think is, is somethingthat, that's good and you know, funny
and humorous movies and thingslike things that stick with you like
that. And I, I find myself,you know, quoting movies in, in,
in situations. Sometimesincredibly obscure things pop into
my head. But that I've had,you know, some folks who've read

(13:01):
my book have said, have saidit was kind of cinematic. You know,
it was like. Reads like amovie, which I think is a great,
very flattering compliment.And then I sort of think, I try to
think visually try to keep thestory going. You know, movies move
yet movies have to go fast.You know, your, your, your. Your
viewer, your audience getsbored. So I try to keep my. When

(13:25):
I write, when I write books, Itry to keep them moving quickly.
So I think that's probably onething that is influenced by, by movies
and then sports is just, youknow, I'm a, I'm a big college football
fan and, and I follow, youknow, follow all, you know, I follow
all the sports, you know,watch all kinds of stuff and. But

(13:46):
so I kind of weave that intothe, the storytelling too. My, my.
The Bystanders opens on theweekend of the Florida Georgia college
football game, which is a bigrivalry, you know, big rivalry game
every October. And so I usethat as sort of the backdrop for,
for, for the, for the book.That's where it starts. And so it

(14:07):
was just a, it was a, it was aconvenient place for me to, to start
it. And also something that Iknew about, you know, I know about
that I know about collegefootball. I know about the rivalry.
I know about the city that thegame is held in. And that made. It
makes it more, you know, to meit makes it more. Feel more real
when it's, when it's, youknow, it's got a, at least got a
toe in reality, you know.

(14:27):
Yeah, I, I agree with that. Itgives a more authentic approach to
it. I think with thebackground some people like that.
Did politics play shape inyour. In your novel as well?
Oh, absolutely. I mean the,I'm. One of the issues that, that
comes up in my book is thatit's, you know, there's. It. It opens
with. I mean and I guess Iprobably would be helpful to sort
of describe this sort ofincident that inspired this. Is.

(14:54):
Back three years ago there wasin like kind of two things sort of
happened, you know, in my lifethat were interesting for this, for
this book. One is that I had abarbecue at my house and I was. My
brother came to my bar, to myhouse and my brother in law also
came to my house. They're bothveterans and they're both gun guys.

(15:14):
You know, my brother likes tohunt. My brother in law sells knives
and tchotchkes and stuff atgun shows. And they. We have this
kind of long conversationabout gun rights and gun laws and
know all and all that stuff.And I'm, I'm kind of in the middle.
Like I, I politically when itcomes to guns. Like listen, it's

(15:37):
in the, your right to, yourright to car, your right to bear
arms, it's in theconstitution. It's undeniable that
the, the, you know, the shipis sailed on that right. The horse
is out of the barn. We're not,we're not changing that. But at the
same time, I, I, I do wonder,you know, do we, do we need, do we
need so many, you know, it'skind of my question, do we need so
many guns? Do we need gunsthat are as powerful as they are?

(15:58):
You know, and it's, it's an,it's an interesting debate. And so
I had this, you know, like Isaid, I had this barbecue and I was
talking to my brother and mybrother in law and most of the conversation
was them explaining to me howwrong I was and how my opinion was,
was, you know, invalid. Youknow, if you have a brother and brother
in law, you know, those conversations.
Absolutely.
And it was, and it was, youknow, all in, all in good, all in

(16:20):
a good time. And then moreimportantly, three in the summer
of three years ago, there wasan incident at a mall in Indiana.
And a guy went into a mallwithin, in Indiana with a, an assault
rifle and started shooting andhe killed three people. But there
was a young man at the foodcourt in the mall in Indiana. His

(16:43):
name is Eli Dickin. And EliDicken was carrying his handgun and
he took out his gun and heshot and killed the active shooter.
And first and foremost, EliDicken is a hero. You know, it's
a word that gets thrown arounda lot, but you know, he's a real

(17:03):
hero. He saved people's livesthat day. He saved a lot of people's
lives that day. And it's sortof an amazing story all by itself.
And, but I was like fascinatedby the story because. When I little
look at it, I'm like going,you know, yeah, this is, this, this
sort of ended it in a waythat's better than, you know, there

(17:25):
was a better outcome of thisthan there could have been. There
could have been a much worseoutcome. But at the same time my
thought process was, is thisthe way it's supposed to be? Like,
are we supposed to, this iskind of like the Wild West. We supposed
to be policing ourselves? Orshould there be some, should, should
there be something elsehappening here? And that's where
the backdrop and the politicalbackdrop of the book, you know, that's

(17:46):
like, what is those questionscome up. Like, okay, why are, like,
what's the, what's the, youknow, should, should, should we be.
You know, is this the way lifeshould be? Are we, should we, should
we be solving this like ClintEastwood or should we solving this
some other way? And it's just,to me it's an interesting conversation
and that's, that, that kind offinds its way into, into of the book

(18:08):
as well. But I try to be veryeven handed about it, not get overly,
you know, one side or theother. And I had a lot of, a lot
of people thankfully have saidto me, you know, that they read the
book and they, and they'veseen, they, they saw my perspectives
that I've given my characterson it and they couldn't, they couldn't,
they can't, they don't knowwhere I fall. Like, so I said, okay,

(18:31):
that's good then I did a goodjob because I didn't give myself
away or like, you know, and,and the reason, the reason I can't
figure out where I fall isbecause I, I, I think I fall in the
middle.
Well I, and I think that's asafe way to go. I mean obviously
if myself, even as a retiredpolice sergeant.
Yeah, sure you have, sure youhave opinions.
Yeah, there's, I mean there's,it, it's a double edged sword, so

(18:54):
to speak in regard to thatbecause I carry, I advocacy weapons
permit that, that I'm with meall the time because. Well, two reasons.
Because I still have peoplethat I put in jail a long time ago
that are now getting out of jail.
Right.
Weren't very happy when I putthem in jail.
Sure.
So it's a personal protectivetype thing. And you know, my views

(19:15):
are this. I think that, youknow, in my patrol car, in several
other patrol car, because Iwas a sergeant, I carried an AR15
in my patrol car forincidences that required a higher
level of force if necessary.So my opinion varies upon that as
well. I don't think that, youknow, everybody, everybody and their

(19:36):
neighbor needs to have an AR15and that's just my personal opinion.
I think that they should beonly in the hands of individuals
that, that are trainedproperty, number one. And the necessity
arises for them. So it's, andI know there's a balance because
as a cop I always get askedthat question too. Where do you fall
on this? I believe in thesecond amendment, I believe in the

(19:59):
right to carry and bury arms.But if you walk through Phoenix at
any day and time in thePhoenix metro area, which is about
6 million people in thePhoenix metro area, which includes
Phoenix, Glendale, Peoria,Scottsdale, that's all butted up
next to each other. There areshootings every day. Which. Which

(20:21):
it's. It's like down here, youdon't have to have a concealed weapons
permit. You can carry aweapon. So it's one of these things.
Example, two bikers got intoit in the middle of the road. They
were shooting each other. Oneshot one, and then a guy in a car
hit the other guy who wasshooting at the first guy in the
first place. So it was a hugemess, and it was all in the middle

(20:45):
of an intersection. So, youknow, and sometimes you have to pause
and say, does everybody needto have them? So I agree with you.
Yeah. Like, that's. It's a.It's an interesting question. Right?
I mean, it said, like, youcould. You could sit here and say.
Yeah, you saying. If you'resaying it happened, you know, in
the intersection in. In, youknow, Phoenix. I mean, the first
thing, it could be anintersection anywhere in our city.

(21:07):
It could also be outside thesaloon at the, you know, okay. Corral.
I mean, it's like, you know,it's. It's. To me, it's just. It's
just. It's interesting. Right.Again, I. I don't have an I, but
it. But it's interesting.
Well. It'S something thatcould be explored a little deeper.
But we're going to talk aboutyour book. I know, I know. I appreciate

(21:28):
how you've presented in thebook. I haven't read the whole book,
but I have to be honest,because I didn't have time to read
everything, but I did skimthrough it. So, you know, well done
in the way that you presentedit. I appreciate that. And we know
that, you know, motives arepowerful process turning ideas into
finished novels wherecreativity meets discipline. Can

(21:49):
we talk a bit about, like, howyou approach. I. I love how you.
You take. I like theintersection of pop culture and.
And creativity, because Ithink pop culture influences creativity
and how we have aconversation, how we be able to present
something to somebody, whetherit be in a novel, in a conversation,

(22:11):
in a. In a media presentation,or whatever it happens to be. I think
pop culture, society andculture dictates how we present something.
How did you weave elements ofpop culture into you, into fiction
without kind of feeling forcedto do it?
Well, I think that. Thatwe're. You know, the first thing
is, is I wrote, you know,contemporary mystery. Right. So it's.

(22:34):
I'm not trying to writesomething that's set, you know, although
I think it would be fun to tryto write something that was set 20
years ago or 30 years ago or40 years ago. I was listening to
an interview pretty recentlyof a guy who wrote a historical novel.
It's based in the 1980s, whichmakes. Made me feel old that they

(22:56):
call it 1980s a historicalnovel, but it would be fun to do
that. But I wrote acontemporary mystery and that's where
I am in the current day andage. And we're just tremendously
influenced by what's. What'scoming through, you know, coming
through our phones and, youknow, coming through our screens
and the. And. And it's howwe're getting information and, and

(23:20):
that's, you know, that's partof. Part of what's happening in the
world is how, you know, andparticularly when it comes to news,
quote, unquote news, it's.It's greatly influenced by kind of
like how it gets perceivedright in the beginning, you know,
and in so many instances, youknow, something. Something that seems

(23:40):
like it's news never getspicked up. And then things that seem
insignificant, they get. Theydo get picked up. They do get some,
you know, viral legs. And thenalso the cycle changes. And, you
know, part of. In my book theBystander, you know, the. My main
character is kind of trying toinvestigate this mystery, but at

(24:01):
the same time, according tohis bosses, it's less interesting
now. So guess what? We don'twant to. We don't want you, you know,
investigating this becauseit's not as newsworthy as it was
three days ago or two hoursago. And so, like, that's kind of
what's happening in, In. Inthe. In in the world. And I think
that that's. That's just. Tome, it's also really interesting
that the way that what's. Hownews, how newsworthy gets determined

(24:26):
these days is it's differentthan it used to be.
I think I agree with you. Ithink that the. Especially in today's
environment, as on fire, as itis all across, not just locally,
but across the world, so muchthat is being presented to us within

(24:48):
the media, no matter where itcomes from, it can be inflammatory
as well as informative.Unfortunately, I think you have the
balance that you found. Is agood balance because it allows for
the implementation of currentevents. And I have to laugh. We talk

(25:14):
about being the olden days.Whoever said that to you about the
80s being like historical orway back when? Yeah, that's not that
far ago. Because then we haveto admit how old we are. Right?
Right. Well, yeah, well,that's part of. That's right. We're
in the same boat in that, inthat thought. But that, but the point

(25:34):
that I make, what's making wasthe author wrote this book set in
the 80s, and it was a lot of,lots of like, you know, 80s nostalgia
for this guy. He's probably acontemporary. I think he was. Yeah,
he might, he's my age. I'm 57,so he's my age. So he grew up, you
know, and it grew up in the80s. And just like I did, I mean,
you know, I was greatlyinfluenced by the 1980s and. But

(25:55):
what, he didn't call it ahistorical novel. It's like the,
the, the, the powers that becalled it a historical novel because
it takes place, you know, 40years ago. And if, when, you know,
when you were a kid, I'm notgonna, I'm not gonna guess or, or,
or make any assumptions, butif somebody said, oh, yeah, okay,

(26:16):
well, here, this, this bookis, is, was set in the 1920s, you
know, or the ninth, you know,you, you might say, oh, yeah, that's
pretty long. That was a longtime ago.
Right?
That's historical. Like nowit's a hundred years ago. But it's
just weird right now, 50 yearsago, sadly, you know, it was the
1970s.
So I, I. Grew up in the 60sand the 70s. I'm a few short years

(26:44):
from 70. So, yeah, to me itfeels ancient. It feels a long time
ago, but sometimes it feelslike yesterday. So, you know, we
have to look at it from thatperspective. I won't tell you. We,
you know, it's, it's, we're inmedia, we shouldn't say exactly how

(27:04):
old we are. So we'll say thatI'm mid-60s.
Yeah. I have no problem sayinghow old I am.
I am who I am.
That's fine.
It's kind of one of thesethings. I, I, I, when I, we look
back and people talk aboutage. I'm 66 years old. I'll be going
into my 67th year shortly. Imean, I'm already into my 67th year

(27:27):
going into it. Realistically,so many things in my life have, could
have changed me not beinghere. So, you know, I'm proud of
achieving this age in spite ofeverything that has taken place.
And, you know, we have to. Andone more thing before you go was
actually started on, on a lotof that. My father, my father died

(27:48):
when he was 39 years old. Hisfather died when he was 40, 27 years
old. His father before him at43 and the father before him at 47.
Wow.
So in reality, 66, to me, isan achievement for my side.
Yeah, you're, you're. You're.Yeah, you're on.

(28:10):
You're.
You're on. You're. You'reicing, right? You're on the icing.
Icing phase of the cake.
I'm the ancient part of that.It's funny, when you mentioned earlier
something about, or somebodyhad read your book, they kept telling
you that it kind of reads likea movie. Did movies inspire anything

(28:31):
that you. That you had done inthis book? Maybe a particular film
or genre?
You know, I think that, that,that. I, I'm. For me, it's, it's,
it's just I've seen, you know,all the action movies you see and
the mystery movies you see,even, like TV and, you know, Law

(28:54):
and Order and things likethat. All those things, they all
have an influence on youbecause you, because one of the things
that you're. That I want to dois I want to tell a story that's.
That's new and different.Right. And I also want to tell a
story that is that. That whereI'm comfortable, you know, in talking
about it. Meaning that it's.It's comfortable for me. It's easy.

(29:17):
Easy for me and accurate forme. So I, I like, I, I don't get
too heavy into, you know,like, there's, there's like a whole
category called policeprocedurals, and I've drifted into
there a few a little bit everyonce in a while. Because whenever
you have a, whenever you havea crime happening, there's always
those, those issues. But Imean, I don't want to get too heavy

(29:38):
into, you know, DNA resultsand stuff like that. But I, so. But.
And that's really. You getsuch a heavy dose of all those things.
You watch just watch Datelineor, you know, or, you know, a Law
and Order episode or watchDateline on, you know, true crime,
prop podcast, things likethat. But for me, it's always, I
think, just telling a. Tellingan interesting story, trying to develop

(30:00):
interesting characters andhaving the story move, you know,
like that, to me, is that Iwant the story to move. I want to
have come up with someinteresting twists and, you know,
surprise my audience everyonce in a while and then. And keep
it clipping along so they keepturning the page.
That's. That's the goal. Imean, that's the goal. Keep them

(30:22):
interested. Keep them turningthe page. Yeah, I would have a. I
would have a. I think adifficult time in writing something
like, especially a crimething, because. I had this problem,
I have to admit. My wife hasnow joined me in this. I've recruited
her, I've trained her. She'sgone through the FTO program. Now

(30:44):
we watch a police show on tv,and it's like, they wouldn't do that.
That's not the way they woulddo that. They would do it this way,
this way and this way. And Ikeep having to. Having to balance,
oh, this is just a TV show.
Right.
Or this is just a movie.
It's a work of fiction.
Exactly. It would be difficultfor me to try to write a crime novel

(31:06):
because I think I would startgoing too deep into what you just
said, the, the technicalaspects of it. And, you know, that's
boring, actually. We look at it.
Yeah, you can get. You can getlost in it. I mean, I. I was. I was.
I'm working on. I was workingon another. Another book, and I was.
And I. And I was looking into,you know, this whole, you know, some
of those questions, like, howlong does. You know, how, like, how

(31:30):
long does DNA stay on us? Thisor that or whatever? And you just
get to, you, can you sit thereand. And, you know, I mean, I, I
wanted to be accurate, but atthe same time, I'm like, I don't
want to write up whole bookabout DNA. I like DNA results. It's
like, it's like, I don't wantto do that. And at the same time,
you're also. When you're theauthor, you're telling a story, and
it's not. It's not really thesignificant part of the story. It's

(31:51):
just another piece of it. Youknow, it's like, it's the, you know,
and your audience doesn't careif it takes, you know, if it takes
three hours or three days orthree weeks to get DNA results back
from a lab. They don't care.They just want to know. They want
to know if the, you know, thebad guy did it or not or if they
ma. If it matches up. So youdon't. You have to take those liberties.

(32:14):
And I, I don't know how longit takes DNA to come back from a
lab. I don't. You know, Idon't. I don't want to. I wouldn't
want to say something that waslike. So that, like, I know, I know
it doesn't workinstantaneously, like in science
fiction. Like a sciencefiction novel would do it, but I
also, you know, don't think myaudience. The audience really would
care if it's three days orthree Weeks, you know, and for me,

(32:37):
I try to write my books. Youknow, the books I've written so far,
they all take place in a, youknow, in a week or so period. I'm
like, I'm trying to, I'mtrying to write a sort of fast paced
thing and you know, I can't bebogged down with truth and reality
of science when I'm trying totell a quick story.
Exactly. In, in a perfectworld, we'd be living Star Trek and

(33:00):
they would find it, boom,instantaneously by touching it to
a little tri corner type thing and.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right?There's, there's a place for that.
There's a place for that.Right? There's a place for that.
It's just not. And when you'retrying to have it, when you're trying
to be grounded in reality, youknow, that, that, that, that becomes
a challenge.

(33:20):
Along that same line, politicscan be polarizing. How, how do you
balance political themes withlike the entertainment value in your,
in your book?
It's, it's tricky, you know,because you have. You know, it's
polarizing, right. So youdon't want to say something that
you don't want to, you know,you don't want to characterize somebody
that, you know, one way oranother. I had my, you know, my editor

(33:47):
wanted to make sure, you know,gave me some, some good advice and
it's like, you know, you needto make some of these political characters.
You have to, you have to makethem different enough from the real
person because you, you wantyour book to have longevity, right?
So in other words, you don'twant to have the, you don't want

(34:08):
to, you don't want to. Youknow, for example, in, in, in my
book there's a, there'sthere's an appearance by the governor
of the state of Florida.Right. And, and you know, my editor
made, recommended. Listen, ifyou know, you know, you, you want
people to be able to read thisbook in three years and you know,
just, you make, make sure theeditors, I mean, make sure the governor

(34:30):
is not a parody of the currentgovernor. You want it to be, you
know, make this character asinteresting as possible, but you
know, have them be kind ofevergreen that it's not immediately
you're just that it's, that'sthe current governor. Right. And
so those are things that I,I'm learning as I go. Like I, you
know, I don't want to be tooclose, too close to, to reality,

(34:53):
particularly with politicalstuff, because then you could get,
you Know, get people upsetwith you. So I was. I was. I was.
I one of. I have anothercharacter in the Bystander that's
a. Like a television. NationalTV host, national TV commentator.
And I had a very direct visionin my head of who I was parodying

(35:17):
in this. And. And so the. Ihad one reader say to me, say, oh,
my gosh, it's so. Exactly. Andshe named a different person. So
she was like. So I was like,okay, that one I got right. So, like,
I was trying to get. I wastrying to. In my head, I envision.
Was envisioning one person,and then on the other side, it's

(35:40):
actually somebody else, youknow, and so they. So the reader.
The reader in their mindthought I was trying to be specifically
one person, and I was actuallynot trying to be that person. So
that worked itself out. And,like, that's great. So when it. When
it comes to, like, you. Youdon't. You don't want to, like, call
people out specifics. Andalso, you don't want to be too polarizing
because there are, you know,there's a lot of. There's a lot of

(36:04):
issues out there, and. Andsome things are incredibly, you know,
personal to people, and youcan't be, you know, you don't want
to be flippant aboutsomething, you know, because there.
There's these incrediblypersonal issues that impact people.
So it's a delicate balance.But I'm. I'm. I've been such a student
of politics for so long that Ifeel very comfortable in that world

(36:27):
that I know I. I know how farI can go without, you know, being,
you know, either being, youknow, obnoxious or.
Or being disrespectful, whichI think, obviously, I think that
especially in today'senvironment, that's something that
has to be achieved in yourbook to make sure that it's.
Yeah, I don't want to. I don'twant to get canceled.
Yeah. Which can, as you know,can happen in an instant.

(36:48):
Absolutely. Without. Without a doubt.
What was that? You've writtenanother book. We spoke about it right
before we started. It was anonfiction book. What was the biggest
challenge in moving fromnonfiction to fiction? I've always
wondered about that myselfbecause I've written two fiction
books, haven't been publishedyet. But it seemed to be easier for
me to formulate the fictionbooks than to formulate the novel

(37:11):
that I still have deep backinside of my head.
Well, I think they're twodifferent. They're different. I mean,
I could talk for A long timeabout the differences in the process
of getting them published,written and published and everything
else.
You'll have to come back.
I think they're different. Sorry.
I say, well, I'll have to haveyou back.

(37:31):
Oh, yeah, sure, if you want.They're. They're. To me there's.
They're kind of differentmuscles, you know, I mean it's the
same. You know, they're justdifferent muscle groups. The. Obviously
when you write non fiction,everything is bait. Is. Has to meet
the reality check. You know,it's not, It's. To me, it's. It's
my nonfiction book. I'm reallyreporting facts and truth and you

(37:57):
know, with my opinion weavedin there. Right. And. And so it's,
it's pretty methodical in theprocess, you know, that you have.
It's like you're grounded inreality when you write fiction. You're.
You get to make the worldright. You get to like create. Create
the. Create the story. Andwhat's was. Is interesting to me

(38:21):
as I sort of catch myselfsometimes is that I create in a.
You know, right. You know,writing a story and I've built out
the sort of the facts of thestory. And then somewhere along the
line I realized, well, I don'tthink that would work. I'm not sure
that would. That's. That woulddoesn't. It's not making sense in
my own head. And then I catchmyself and I go, well, guess what?

(38:42):
I can go back and change thereality. I can go back and you know,
it's like, oh, this guy's, youknow, this. Making this up. But you
know, whatever. The guy's tooshort. You know, he, I described
him as short and now he's, youknow, he's. He's doing something
which he could. Couldn't do.Well, guess what? I can go back and
make him tall. It's easy, youknow, it's easy, easy enough to happen.
You know, I can make, you canmake a. You can make a male character

(39:04):
at a female character. You cango and you know, change something.
Change what? Change whathappened in a part of a. Part of
a story and change. Change alittle bit of the end. I mean, you
hear about, you know, peoplewho write a book and then they change
the end. You know, it's. It'sour movie. You know, happens a lot
of movies, right? They, they.They write a screenplay and then

(39:24):
they screen it and theaudience doesn't like the ending
and they go back and theychange it. You know, so you can do
that in Fiction and nonfiction. You can't really go back
and change it. You know, youhave, you're dealing with, you're
dealing with facts. So it's a,it's a, it's. But you're still communicating,
you're still trying to tell astory. You're still trying to tell,
you're still trying to beentertaining. I mean my, those are

(39:45):
what my books have in common.My fiction, my non fiction book is
trying to educate people andabout online reputation issues and
I try to do it in a fun andinteresting manner. And you know,
some of the, some of the best,you know, some of the most meaningful
comments were that I got onthat. You know, reviews of my, my
non fiction book were that,that it was, it was interesting and
it was funny, you know,because, because I came across some

(40:07):
crazy things that happened forsome crazy problems that people had
online and I wrote about themand they're, and they're at arm's
length. They're pretty funny.You know, they're pretty. Sometimes
they're sad for the personthat's happened to them but at the
same time even, even the, evensometimes the people that happen
to, they realize how funny itis. So try to like, you know, try
to. Whatever I write, I'mtrying to make it interesting. Try

(40:29):
to be, try to be interesting.Try to, try to, try to, to, to weave
in enough info and enoughpoint of view that, that people are
entertained.
You talk about movies or movieabove. Talk about the way people
kind of perceive your writingis something on a screenplay. You
ever thought about writing a screenplay?

(40:49):
You know, I never, I have not.I think there's. The sort of. The
rules and regulations of ascreenplay I think I'd have. It would
be an interesting challenge todo it. But. I feel pretty comfortable
in the form I'm in now. Likethis long form fiction that I, I

(41:10):
understand it and then kind ofswitching to something and you know,
I mean if somebody asked me todo it and I don't know, maybe got
paid to do it, I, I guess I, Iwould do it. But it's, it's pretty,
it's an art. You know, I thinkthere's a lot to it. It's a lot.
It's a different, it's adifferent realm. I was listening
to an interview prettyrecently of an author who, who's
written a bunch of books andhas also written, you know, for the

(41:30):
screen and you know, and, andjust listening to that process, it
sounds like it's, it's, it'spretty daunting. To. For. To me,
because I just don't. I'm notsure if I think that way. I'd have
to, like, start thinking adifferent way.
Well, you have a head start.I'll tell you as an individual, that,
that I produced twointernational film festivals and

(41:50):
then five screenwritingconferences where we brought producers,
directors, screenwriters outto teach people how to write screenplays.
Basically. It, it is an art,as like you said, but it is something
that if your book already kindof is written in the way of it, it

(42:11):
would be easy to adapt yourbook to a screenplay. But you could
think about that another time.
Yeah, I know. I think that.The only world that's, that's, you
know, I mean, I think that theliterary world is like, littered
with, with great books thatnever been published. And it's probably

(42:31):
that. That that mound of. Ofmanuscripts is probably dwarfed by
the number of screenplays thathave never been seen. I can't even
imagine. I don't even know howyou go about taking it. Taking that
process is getting thatplates, you know, they're so. I mean,
you know, it's, it's. It's.It's sort of. It's almost. It's unlimited

(42:53):
the ability to write a book,you know, get a book published, but
to get something actuallyadapted to the screen that, you know,
it's filmed by professionalpeople, it's a pretty, Pretty big
leap, right?
It is a big leap. I have to behonest with you. It takes a lot.
And obviously they're lookingfor content, like, consistently,
but there's also a deluge, asyou said. I know readers. I still

(43:17):
have connections within theindustry. There are readers that,
say, have pictures of theirdesk and they've got piles of screenplays
that are sitting on theirdesks that they still have to read
through. To pick one. To pickone. So it's crazy. Yeah.
Yeah, I know. Yeah, that's it.I. I'm just. I think that that process
is. Is. Is too daunting for meat the moment.

(43:41):
So when you get up to youreighth, eighth or ninth novel, then.
Yeah, then it might squeeze in or.
If somebody wants to. Ifsomebody wants to do it. I mean,
I'm. I'm wide open to it. Ifsomebo wanted to do it, they like
my book and they want to turninto Netflix series or whatever.
I'm. I'm down and there yougo. And I, I do. I'd be willing to

(44:03):
help if I could, but I thinkfrom what I've seen, what I've read,
that it's Such a different,it's a different art form that usually
they, they, they, there's alot of rules. They tell the author,
you know, listen, thanks foryour time and thanks for your story
and you know, you know, don'tbe a nuisance.
Yeah, don't be a nuisance.Yeah, there's a lot of rules. A lot

(44:23):
of rules. Well, you, yourdebut novels won some awards. How
did that success, how wouldthat recognition impact you to win
awards so early on, especiallybeing your debut novel?
Well, the first, the first onewas very impactful for me. It was
called the BPA First NovelAward. And I applied for that while

(44:45):
I was pitching it. I wastrying to find a publisher for the
book and that is a reallydifficult process. And so I. You
know, I was, it's, it's, it'sa slog, basically the only way I
can describe it. And I had.Looked at what other authors, you

(45:06):
know, how they were pitchingtheir books and I saw that there
were a lot of authors that hadcredentials that were, you know,
better than mine. You know,like my, my credentials were that
I wrote a business book andthat I was a corporate ghostwriter,
you know, and things likethat. But I never, I don't have an
MFA from William and Mary orwhatever. You know, I never, I've
never taken a screenplaywriting class or whatever. I know

(45:27):
I didn't go to film school. Ididn't do, I haven't written, you
know, any award winning stuff.So I was like, all right, well what,
what if I try to get a coupleof credentials, I get a credential
behind my name somehow in thefiction world. And so I applied for
this back in 2023, what'scalled the BPA First Novel Award.
And it's based in the UK, it'srun by a literary agency and they

(45:50):
have a literary agents whoactually, actually review the submissions.
And so, you know, I paid Ithink £40 to, to, to submit my book
and I sent them, you know,send my book and my information and
they picked, they got morethan a thousand entries and my book

(46:11):
made the long list, which was22 books. So it was 21 of, you know,
22 of more than a thousand.And that was, you know, a great validation
for me. I think it helped mypitch like, I think it helped me
to be able to put that in mypitch to, to agents and publishers.
And it also gave me confidencethat, you know, that, that my book

(46:35):
was good. You know, I, I was,I was, you know, you never know.
Like you, you never know ifit's really if it's good or not.
And so that helped.
And that's astounding. I mean,it's outstanding to be able to achieve
that.
And, and then as the, when,when I was getting ready to come
out, you know, I applied, Isubmitted to some other awards. Just,

(46:57):
you know, figuring, you know,that it, that, that I'm, that I'm
looking for that. Looking forthings to promote, you know, like
I could, that I can say mybook won an award, that I can promote
it on Instagram, that my bookwon an award. Right. So. And I applied
to. You know, three or fourother, like three or four contests

(47:19):
and you know, hoping that Iwould, you know, my might, you know,
I might, you know, getsomewhere in one of them. And I did,
I did, I did better than Ithought. I was actually. I was, I've
was named a finalist for acouple of awards and I was recently
just named a finalist for oneof the best thrillers of 2025 by

(47:40):
best thrillers dot com. Andthere was an award called the Story
Trade Award. I was a finalistfor that in the mystery category
and then. Another one in theUK called the Page Turner Awards,
I applied for that and I wasshortlisted for that award. And then
I won the Story Trade Awardfor the mystery genre. I was, I honestly,

(48:05):
I submitted thinking like, youknow what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try.
You know, I had a, I had aboss one long time ago who used to,
who was a big believer inawards and she used to say, you know,
if you do good work and youbelieve in it, you should get recognition
for it and you shouldn't beafraid to have recognition for it.
For me, it was just, I waslike trying to look for that little
bit of a marketing edge. Andso I submitted to these awards and

(48:28):
I won a few. So I'm proud of that.
Congratulations on all ofthat. I think that, yeah, what a
milestone early on in yournovel writing career. There's some
great achievements that youhave done. How do you see current
trends in entertainment withyour background in both public relations
and media and from thatperspective as well as the novel,

(48:52):
how do you see current trendsin entertainment, movies, sports
and politics and how theyshape the future of fiction?
I think there's, I think thatthere's just, there's a lot of great,
you know, there's be a lot of,there's a lot of great stories out
there. There's a lot of, youknow, interesting things you're seeing.
You know, the, the big thing,the great thing is that so many,

(49:13):
so many events now are being.Cataloged in one way or another.
Right? And that, you know, sowhere I live in South Florida, there's
a, there's a Instagram accountI live in, in Miami, Dade county,
you know, and there's a,there's a web Instagram account called
Only Indeed. And it'sbasically user driven. I don't, I

(49:34):
don't know exactly how itworks, but they, people who are out
on the street and somethinghappens, they film it on their phone
and they submit it to thisonly in Dade who curates the, curates
stuff and they publish it. Andit's, it's, it's really how a lot
of people are getting theirnews. And it's also, it's, it's more
authentic, I think, becauseit's, it's. You get to see it with

(49:56):
your own two eyes. Like thisis what's happening in front of me,
right? It's not being filteredby a reporter or whatever. And I
think that there's just.We're, we're really uncovering more
interesting stuff every daybecause of the proliferation of,
you know, mobile phones and,and the, the ability, the ability

(50:18):
for people to. Create qualityvideo with the camera that's in their
pocket and then turn that into something.
Right?
And so I think we're, there's,that, that. There's lots of, lots
of stories are being uncoveredthat more so than, than what we've,
we've had in the past throughthe traditional filters. And so,

(50:41):
and, and it's just, it's. Andeverything's moving really quick.
So like, that's the other,that's the other thing is everything's
moving really fast. Sothere's, there's trends are, trends
are shorter than they used tobe. And, but it, there's, you know,
finding. I think it's, it'seasier to find interesting stuff
because there's more, there's.There's more, more people creating,

(51:02):
creating different types ofcontent, creating and documenting
and cataloging what'shappening around us. So I think it's
all going to start to, it'sinfluencing, I think it's already
influencing how we, how wetell stories.
Well, it's influenced, Ithink, tremendously past that in
regard to, like you said, youhave a phone in your pocket that's
a computer that literally youcan get news instantaneously and

(51:25):
live. You don't have to waitfor it to go through the media to
be able, like you said, filterit, censor it, or whatever the case
may be. You can pick yourphone up, you know, open your. Open
the app or open the media andyou have instantaneous connection,
which is.
Absolutely, absolutely. And Ithink that, I think it's, it's, it's.

(51:45):
And we, we originally weresort of looking at this as a. Of.
Of receiving information, youknow, and it's like, I remember when.
And this is, you know,whatever it was 20 plus years ago,
I met a guy who, you know, wasat a. We were at. Was it a bar on
a Friday night or whatever itwas. And he had a, like a pager type

(52:06):
device pre iPhone. And thispager type device would. Would, you
know, he was getting sportsscores. So he was like, you would
know, like, which. Who won thebaseball game and whatever else before.
And that was like, oh, okay,that's the future. The future is
we're all going to have adevice that's going to send us information.
And now what's happened is nowwe have a device where we can broadcast
information. And so now it'snot just, it's not just receiving,

(52:29):
it's pushing it out there.And, and that's the thing. I was
driving. I was driving prettyrecently, and he's a police officer.
You'd probably reallyappreciate this. There was a guy
who had clearly had someproblem with his car. Okay. He had
his hood up. He was driving onthe Florida turnpike. He was driving

(52:51):
his hood up. So. And, and Iwas in my car and I was, you know,
and I was going, you know, youknow, for purposes of this communication,
like two miles an hour overthe speed limit going past him. And,
And I was thinking to myself,you know, I should. If I had. If

(53:12):
I was in the passenger seat ofmy car, I would be filming this and
sending it to one of thesewebsites because it was, to me, it
was, I mean, super dangerous.But also like, this is. This is Florida.
You know, Florida is crazy,right? There's crazy people in Florida.
This is what crazy people inFlorida do. And I was, you know,
and my, my hope would be theguy would pull over, but at the same
time, like, thinking about,man, I could film this and I could

(53:33):
get some. I get some views offof this because it's nuts and it's,
you know, and I never wouldhave. I. And, and, and the, the main
thing is that I, you know,nobody would believe me, like, if
I told them, you know, 20years ago I told him the story. Oh,
no, that didn't happen. You'remaking that up. Like, oh, well, no,
I got here, I got a picture of it.
I Got videos online.
It's not fake. It's not fake.It happened like this happened. And

(53:55):
so I think there's all kindsof, you know, that. That that's opening
up all kinds of ideas. Itgives me ideas all the time. Like,
like, like, let's do this.
I agree with you on. On all ofit. I think it's an opportunity for
us to be able to reach out anddocument something that needs to
be documented from thatperspective. But at the same time,

(54:16):
I also have this underlyingyou when you watch somebody being
assaulted or you watchsomebody have something happening
to somebody, from that regard,everybody grabs their camera and
instead of helping or gettinginvolved to a point that. They should
be protecting somebody,they're not doing that. Instead,

(54:36):
they're filming.
No, you're right. I mean,absolutely right. Like, you know,
first. First call 911 andthen, you know, and then.
Then film.
Then worry about documentingit. And, you know, and, you know,
my. My. My instinct is to tellmy kids is like, you just. Just stay
away from all that. You know,don't get yourself in the middle

(54:57):
of that. You never know. So Iwas so upset that he's fighting with
a. Fighting with another humanbeing like that or is resisting a
police officer. That's adangerous person. So stay away from
myself.
Yeah, yeah. No, and when I sayget involved, I agree with you. Just
to clarify, call 91 1. Don'tjust pick up the phone. Do something
first to get some help on the way.

(55:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, as a cop, the firstthing that I look at when I retired
for six months after Iretired, I was still calling stuff
in, and, you know, the guyskept going, sarge, you retired, Take
your break. Put your feet up.We got you. We got this. Right? And
my instinct is to always takea proactive approach in regard to

(55:41):
something like that. So forme, I understand the video aspect
of it, but usually I'm with mywife or with my daughters, so it's
you video or I'll call or youcall and I'll do this kind of a thing.
But that's around therestaurant. How do you hope your

(56:02):
work will influenceconversations about storytelling
in society?
You know, I. I'm. I hope. Myhope is that I entertain people,
that they enjoy my books andthat they, you know, they'll. They'll.
They'll buy the next one andtell their friends. And I. I don't.
Don't set out. I. You know, Icovered a lot of some social issues
in my book, but they reallywere part of trying to make the story

(56:25):
more interesting and give itmore depth. You know, I'm not trying
to solve any problems oranything like that. I don't have,
I don't have a larger societalmission. You know, it's really, it's.
I wrote and I wrote. I wrote amystery, contemporary mystery. That's,
that's, that's a work offiction and I want people to read
it and be entertained and itcan be escapist and whatever. I'm

(56:48):
not necessarily trying to getsomebody to, to have a discussion
about, you know, moral fiberor anything like that. I mean, if
folks want to talk about it,that's great. But to me, it's like
I'm. That the idea is, is it,is it interesting? And does it, does
it, does it make you think alittle bit, but does that. As long
as it's advancing the storyand you're, you know, you, you get,

(57:08):
you're, you're entertained andamused and that's, that's really
my main, my main goal.
You want to take them on ajourney? Yeah, I find that whether
it be a book or whether it bea television show or a movie, especially
movies, it allows me thatescape to go on a journey that I
wouldn't normally be taking.So I think that you've achieved that

(57:32):
within this book.
Appreciate that.
Let's talk about how to get it.
Sure. So, yeah, Bystander isavailable on all the online platforms.
It's, you can order it throughyour local bookstore. It's not going
to be on the shelfautomatically. You can also go to.

(57:53):
Bookshop.Org, which has a,the, you know, which benefit which,
where profits get shared withthe local bookshops. So that's another,
another way to, way to do it.But you know, Amazon, Barnes and
Noble, all that stuff, all theApple and Google Play, all those
places and more informationand all the links to all that on
my website, which is by johndavid.com so by john david.com and

(58:18):
it's. Yeah, the book's, it'savailable now and, you know. I'm
hustling to find a readershipthat's my. What I'm doing.
Well, I'll see if I can helpyou in any way that I can. So we'll
make sure the links to thatare in the show notes so they can
find it very easily by justclicking on it and it'll take you
right to it.

(58:40):
Great.
This is one more thing beforeyou go. So before we go, words of
wisdom. What advice would yougive to aspiring authors about finding
their creative voice intoday's pop culture driven world.
Well, you know, at the, ittook me, I spent, you know, I took
the first draft of this book,took me about five months to write

(59:01):
and. And then I spent 18months trying to find a publisher.
So three times as long tryingto find a place to publish it than
it took to actually create thework. Right. So it's like I said
before, it's a slog. But Ibelieved in my work. I believed in
it. I had moments where Ibelieved less in it, maybe days when

(59:27):
I believed more and days whenI believed less. But I said on the
acknowledgments at the end ofmy book that to think about. There'S
a legendary college basketballcoach, guy named Jim Valvano who
coached the North Carolina,North Carolina State Wolf Pack, won
the national title back in thenight in the 80s. And he, you know,

(59:51):
the world lost Jim Valvano tocancer. And he is famous. They do
a lot of fundraising for himfor his foundation on ESPN and stuff.
And he gave a very famousspeech where. And I kind of miss,
I kind of appropriated hiswords, you know, when he was talking
about cancer. And he says, youknow, don't give up, don't ever give
up. And when it comes to yourwriting career, it's like, don't

(01:00:15):
give up, don't ever give up.You know, you got to keep trying.
It's going to take,unfortunately, I think the publishing
world, it moves very slow,incredibly risk averse and. But if
your work is good, you can getit published. And so don't give up.

(01:00:36):
Brilliant words of wisdom.Don't give up. Always take a step
forward, not backward.
I agree with that.
Well, from motives tomethodologies to successes to failures,
John David's journey shows ushow dv, pop culture, movies, sports
and policies can shapecreative output. His debut novel,
the Bystander is not just amystery, it's a reflection of the

(01:00:57):
world we live in and areminder of the power of storytelling
and to challenge andentertain. John, thank you for sharing
your journey with us today.Thank you for sharing your wisdom,
your experiences, theconversation. I really appreciate
it. And for our listeners, ifyou're looking for a success, but
let me try that again. Ifyou're looking for a suspenseful,

(01:01:19):
thought provoking read, checkout the Bystander from Tool Publishing.
And one more thing before yougo, we'll have it in the show notes
as well so that you can findit really easy. So, John, thank you
for being here again. Thankyou for sharing your journey and
your wisdom with us.
Thank you so much, Michael. Itwas a lot of fun.
One More Thing before you Orkohave a great day. Have a great week

(01:01:40):
and thank you for being partof this community.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of One More Thing before
youe Go check out our websiteat before for yougopodcast.
Com.
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