February 19, 2025 • 65 mins
The exploration of veganism offers a profound opportunity to consider the ethical implications of our food choices, not only for our personal health but also for the well-being of the world around us. In this enlightening dialogue, we delve into the intricate intersections of animal ethics, food systems, and philosophical thought, guided by Dr. Matthew Halteman, a distinguished professor of philosophy and author of "Hungry Beautiful Animals."
His work challenges the conventional, rule-bound notions of veganism, advocating instead for a focus on flourishing—both for humans and non-human animals. We discuss how adopting a vegan lifestyle can catalyze meaningful change, fostering a more compassionate and sustainable world. Join us as we unpack these ideas and consider how we can implement them in our daily lives, creating a ripple effect of positive transformation across our communities.
Exploring the intricate relationship between dietary choices and their broader implications on health and environmental sustainability necessitates a profound examination of the ethical dimensions inherent in our food systems. The discourse presented herein delves into the multifaceted nature of veganism, elucidating its potential as a transformative lifestyle that not only enhances individual well-being but also champions animal rights and environmental stewardship.
Dr. Matthew Halteman, a distinguished philosopher and author of 'Hungry Beautiful Animals,' posits that the prevailing practice of adhering strictly to established vegan rules often leads to disillusionment and inadequacy. Instead, he advocates for a paradigm shift towards fostering flourishing, both for humans and non-human animals alike. This episode invites listeners to consider how embracing a vegan lifestyle transcends mere dietary restriction, evolving into a profound ethical commitment that aligns with a compassionate and sustainable vision for the future. By integrating personal anecdotes, philosophical insights, and practical advice, Dr. Halteman articulates a compelling narrative that encourages a thoughtful and intentional approach to food choices, ultimately advocating for a harmonious coexistence with all sentient beings.
Takeaways:
- The intersection of animal ethics and food choices profoundly impacts both personal health and global sustainability.
- Living a vegan lifestyle transcends mere dietary choices; it embodies a philosophy rooted in compassion and ethics.
- Dr. Halteman advocates for a shift from rule-based veganism to a focus on flourishing and joy for all sentient beings.
- Understanding the complexities of our food systems can inspire transformative changes towards more ethical and sustainable practices.
- The misconceptions surrounding veganism often stem from a belief in deprivation, rather than recognizing the abundance it can offer.
- Engaging in the journey toward veganism should be seen as an incremental and personal evolution rather than a rigid identity.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hey, one more thing before yougo. Have you ever considered how
your food choices impact notjust your health, but the world around
you? I talk about it all thetime on the show. Or how living a
vegan lifestyle could be aprofound expression of philosophy
and ethics. Stay tuned becausewe're going to explore living life
as a vegan, discovering theintersection of animal ethics, food
(00:21):
systems and philosophy as away of life, and how the ideas in
Hungry Beautiful Animals, hisnew book, can be put into practice
for real life change. I'm yourhost, Michael Hurst. Welcome to One
more thing before you go. Dr.Matthew Haltiman is a professor of
(00:48):
philosophy at CalvinUniversity, a fellow at the Oxford
center for Animal Ethics, andan ardent advocate for human flourishing,
animal freedom, and foodsystems transformation. His new book,
Hungry Beautiful Animals, is aheartfelt, humane, and even hilarious
account of why rule obsessedvegan practices fail and how focusing
(01:10):
on flourishing can lead to anabundant future for everyone. As
an author, teacher, and anadvocate, Dr. Alterman is committed
to exploring how the choiceswe make around food can shape a more
compassionate, sustainable,and joyful world, which we all need.
He serves on the board ofseveral animal advocacy and food
justice organizations. And hislife pursuits include practicing
(01:34):
partnership, parenting,friendship, and indulging in vegan
desserts, which I am all infor. Matt, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much, Michael. I'mthrilled to be here. And you were
right to lead with desserts.That is probably why one of my greatest
passions in life, especiallyvegan tiramisu. And I can tell you,
(01:56):
for those interested in Hungrybeautiful animals, my recipe, 20
years in the making, isappendix B. So you too can enjoy
my favorite vegan dessert. ButI have to say, I can't miss this
opportunity to say that Iresonate a lot with the idea behind
your podcast, because wephilosophers, at least in the tradition
(02:16):
that I come from, thinking ofphilosophy as a way of life, we think
of philosophy as training fordeath. And so I see myself as an
educator, as trying to getpeople to do one more thing before
they go really, really well,because you just never know when
your time is coming. And soliving with joy and curiosity and
(02:37):
striving to live the goodlife, there's not a moment to lose.
So I'm really glad to be herefor a conversation that I think is
in deep resonance with your mission.
Very, very grateful for that.Yeah, life can change in an instant.
And vegan tiramisu. Italianhere. Okay. Vegan tiramisu. I haven't
(02:58):
had tiramisu for 25 years.
Michael, your Life is about tochange. This podcast is going to
be a transformation for thehost for once.
Absolutely, absolutely lookingforward to that. But we've got much
more podcast important thingsto talk about. Although a tiramisu
(03:18):
is important, but let's talkabout. We got so many things we gotta
discuss and kind of hopefullyto inspire, motivate and educate
people into a lifetransformation which doesn't have
to be abrupt, it can be gentleand you can take your time, but it
is beneficial to you in ourlives and others lives as well as
(03:38):
our environment. And so manythings that becoming a vegan or living
the vegan lifestyle can helpus to contribute to the world. But
I like to start at thebeginning. Where'd you grow up?
I grew up in Wheaton,Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago,
about 26 miles west. And mypeople are actually from eastern
(04:03):
Pennsylvania. So I come fromeastern Pennsylvania, agricultural
Mennonite stock. Both of mygrandparents on both sides were in
agriculture. My paternalgrandfather was an egg farmer and
my maternal grandfather washerbicide and pesticide chemist.
(04:24):
So though I grew up inChicago, my roots, my people are
Mennonites from easternPennsylvania. So food right, not
just at every meal, but atevery celebration, every time we
mourn, every time we dohospitality, food is there. But food
was also the vocationalpursuit right on both sides of my
(04:48):
family until my dad decided tobecome a professor and my mom a spiritual
director and fair tradeactivist. So we ended up in the west
suburbs of Chicago. But foodright is pretty deep in my history
and it's, it's why I'm soexcited about and passionate about
the transformation of food systems.
(05:10):
I think that's an amazingopportunity, you know, for the whole
way around. Coming from yourenvironment, how do you develop such
a deep commitment to humanflourishing, animal freedom and food
systems, especially thetransformation portion of it. And
how does communal cooperationcome into play with that? Because
you mentioned Mennonite kindof environment, how does all that
(05:32):
play into that?
Yeah, so, you know, Mennonitesare well known for the desire to,
you know, be the hands andfeet of Jesus in a suffering world.
A lot of Christians that Iknew in the west suburbs of Chicago
grew up in a form ofChristianity that really emphasized
(05:53):
beliefs and belief system anddefending beliefs and being right
about the beliefs. And um, theMennonites do it a little bit differently.
It, it always in my traditionwas about action, about being salt
and light in a world full ofsuffering. And so I wasn't thinking
much about the metaphysicsuntil a little later when I became
(06:15):
a Philosophy professor. Forme, it was always about, well, how
do we live our lives in a waythat provides service right to others?
And in my family tradition, asI mentioned, agriculture was the
way that we thought aboutthat. The idea was that the world
needs high quality protein.And a lot of people in the world
(06:39):
who don't have access to thatcan benefit from the green revolution
in agriculture can benefitfrom these herbicides and pesticides
that allow us to grow a lotmore grain and get the animals off
the pasture and inside intoconfined feeding operations and the
like. And you know, back whenthis was happening initially, I mean,
(07:03):
I think it's so easy to lookback in retrospect and imagine people
in agriculture as right, thesehorrible people who are sort of forecasting
a dystopic future greedily,right, to try to gobble up all the
profits. But on the contrary,you know, for my family, this was
a part of a, a Christianvision for helping other people you've
(07:24):
never met before by providinghigh quality protein to them through
innovations in, in scienceand, and, and food technology. So
deep, deep in my roots is thisidea that service to others and the
transformation of the world infavor of more joy and more beauty
(07:45):
and less suffering was toprovide food for people. And so obviously
we human beings, our feet aremade of clay. We know sometimes our
best intentions don't turn outthe way we hoped they would. And
I think right when we look nowat some of the challenges our current
food system is facing, we seepretty clearly that there are some
(08:09):
big problems here for the waythat we're treating the human beings
who work in these systems, forthe way that we're treating the animals
who are raised and slaughteredwithin it. And of course, the way
we're treating the Earth andthe use of finite resources to get
it. And so my passion for foodstuff is really, I think, you know,
(08:30):
it might seem counterintuitivebecause a lot of people think, oh,
you're a vegan, but you'refrom, you know, agricultural Mennonite
stock. How does this work? AndI guess I think, well, a big part
of being a humble servant ofothers is to realize that sometimes
the strategies you startedfrom need to adapt and evolve, right?
So in order to do the samething, to serve a suffering world
(08:54):
with better food options, weneed to recalibrate the message a
little bit to serve this thesame mission. And so I actually see
what I'm doing as acontinuation of what my grandfathers
hope to do. You know, theyhope to feed people and make the
world a better Place, I'mlooking for the same thing. But I
(09:15):
think that we need torecalibrate the way that we do that
both as individuals and interms of the way that we raise and,
and distribute food. So somemight see it as a radical break.
I actually see, you know, myinterest in, in vegan education as
(09:36):
a continuation of, of apassion that's been in my family
for many generations to makethe world a better place by looking
carefully at the way we eat.
Well, you know, it'sinteresting because when you, when
you look the, the evolvementof all of that, the evolvement of
even farming. When I, when Iwas a kid, I grew up on, partially
(09:59):
for a short, very, very shortperiod of time on a farm. And in
regard to watching how the,they did things, where we went out
to the pasture, we pulled thecows in, then the cows were hand
milked, they weren't milked bymachine, for example, and things
like this, I think that therewas a more personal contact with
the animals. You had a betterjourney with the animals. There was
(10:20):
more humane and again, this isjust, from my perspective, more humane
than what you see nowadayswhere they're all in a stall and
they're stuck in a stall andthey pretty much spend their lifetime
in a stall and so forth. So Ithink your approach to educating
individuals and trying totransform that journey for everyone
(10:41):
involved, to allow for morecompassion, more human contact, more
understanding that we're allin this together is a wonderful opportunity.
What is your journey from, inother words, how do you. In other
words, let me try that as adifferent question. How did your
(11:03):
journey come about intobecoming a vegan or veganism? Mine
itself. I think we talked alittle bit about it. It was an easy
transition for me. I went to aMediterranean diet and then from
there I learned how foodaffected my disease. So in understanding
how that took place, it tookme more along the line of becoming
a vegan and learning firsthandthrough the transformation of my
(11:29):
own body, my own health, myown journey. How did yours start?
Yeah, so I don't know. I, Iget the feeling in talking with you,
Michael, that you'll, you'llresonate with this. We human beings
are pretty complex people,right? And I always feel like, well,
there's not just one of me,there's many of me. Lots of different
(11:50):
things going on, and I'm thetype of person that has a hard time
changing or getting motivatedunless a whole bunch of the parts
inside are kind of have anepiphany or come together in a certain
way and I'll tell you what Imean, you know, we human beings,
we're physical organisms. Wehave social lives, we have emotions
(12:11):
that kind of regulate oursocial situations. We get a little
older and we have intellectuallives that enable us to kind of get
outside just the emotional andthe social and, and think from a
more disinterestedperspective. And, you know, as we
get better at that, we getthis moral point of view where we're
able to kind of abstractourselves from our own idiosyncratic
(12:33):
preferences and kind of try,at least for the purposes of living
a better life, to, to take thestandpoint of the universe and think
outside our own, you know,predilections and ideas. And with
all those things going on atonce, if you're like me, anyway,
sometimes those are at war,right? So, like, our gut wants a
(12:53):
burger, our heart wants tonuzzle a cow, and our mind is sort
of bobbling back and forthbetween wanting to defend the old
ways of eating and gettingcurious about new ways of eating.
And so for me, it really tookmultiple epiphanies inside that inner
family. And there were sort ofthree big ones that hit me emotionally,
(13:17):
intellectually, and socially.And it really took all three of those
to. To motivate me to makesome changes. Because as I discuss
in the book, you know, in highschool, I was the typical, you know,
corn fed Midwestern boy, noneck football player, captain of
the football team type ofperson, weightlifter and all that
(13:41):
good stuff. And I did not seebeing a vegan in my future, to say
the least. So when I was, Idon't know, 30 years old, ish, I
three things happened. So wegot a dog, and my wife grew up in
a dog family, I grew up in acat family. And our cats were relatively
(14:03):
aloof. And I was willing tosee them as kind of smart, ambulatory
organisms, but they neverstruck me as being unique, irreplaceable
individuals in quite the waythat I came to see animals after
meeting and living with a dog.So Susan said, when we can finally
have pets, right, when you.When we're out of this housing situation
(14:26):
that doesn't allow pets, we'regonna get a dog. And I don't care
what sort of dog, you get tochoose that. So we got a bulldog.
And this is before I knewanything about the selective breeding
practices that producebulldogs. That's a story for another
podcast. Unfortunately, it'snot a happy one. But, Gus, this bulldog
(14:46):
convince me beyond a shadow ofa doubt that this is a canine person.
Now I'm not crazy, right? It'snot a human person. There's a lot
of really importantdifferences there. But a person nonetheless.
An irreplaceable individualwith likes and dislikes people he
can't stand, people he loves,foods that he wouldn't eat if his
(15:07):
life depended on it, versushis very favorite things, carrots.
This dog ate about six poundsof carrots a week. So the emotional
bolt from the blue was gettingto know Gus and realizing this dog
is a person. The intellectualchallenge came from a philosopher
friend who at a lunch one timesaid to me as I was eating a French
(15:30):
dip sandwich with some beefhanging out the bottom of this French
roll, he says, aren't you apacifist? And I was like, well, what's
that got to do with anything?Right? And eventually, in conversations
with him, ended up teaching aclass on food ethics that I thought
sure was going to give me 10knockdown, drag out arguments to
(15:50):
keep eating just exactly whatI had grown up eating and loving.
And then, much to my chagrin,the evidence persuaded me otherwise.
And then the socialtransformation came from my wife,
Susan, who is a really amazinghome cook. And, you know, she was
(16:10):
kind of for years a vegetarianfor human development and sort of
global justice reasons andenvironmental reasons. I was an extremely
reluctant, you know,vegetarian by marriage. Sometimes,
you know, occasionally I'd geta port, a pit chicken on the way
home, especially if we were inan argument. So very, very reluctant
(16:32):
to do this. But when myemotional commitment to animals through
Gus and my intellectualcommitment to taking a harder look
at these issues came together,I was initially like, well, let's
just, you know, let's justkeep eating this way until I figure
out all the answers. And Susanwas like, no, let's do a vegan experiment.
I love to cook. I like to donew things. We can do this. And boy,
(16:57):
oh, boy, could we ever. Imean, she made things that were so
delicious. And we embarked ona social journey that convinced me
beyond a shadow of a doubtthat this would be a life of abundance
and not deprivation. So thosethree things, the emotional hit,
the intellectual hit, and thesocial hit, it took all three of
those things kind of happeningin rapid succession to convince me
(17:20):
that this was going to beabout transformation rather than
deprivation. And boy, am Igrateful to the fates, right, for
bringing those three thingstogether. Otherwise, who knows? I
might still be dangling shortrib bones as vampire fangs at family
events like I used to.
Yeah, it kind of changes yourphilosophy just a bit as a philosopher,
(17:44):
right?
Absolutely.
You know, it's interestingbecause when we look at animals,
we. Charlie, I'm pointing toCharlie down over my shoulder here.
He's laying behind me. Everyanimal we've ever had in our family,
we still call family. And youknow, it has always been that way.
Kids grew up that way withcats and with dogs and whatever we
(18:07):
had had. I even owned a horseat one time. Well, it was a pony.
It's a Shetland pony. He's amini horse.
A little guy.
Yeah, mini horse. But yeah,I've always treated them with compassion
in regard to that. And it, youknow, even the cows that I milk,
I told you earlier, the pigsthat I slopped or the chickens that
(18:28):
I fed always went out andtalked to them like they were people.
You know, I didn't go out andjust throw food at them and, you
know, milk them and then slapthem on the butt and tell them, get
out. It was a conversation.I'd say, hey, thank you for doing
this. Thank you for beinghere. And for some reason, and I
bring this up because I thinkit innately within my own heart and
my soul, I knew that they werea being. You know, they may not be
(18:52):
a human being, but they were abeing. So even at a young age, I
was able to recognize theconnection between an animal and
us. And you see within them,you see love and you see compassion.
And you mentioned it in whatyou just said with, you know, they
like this or they don't likethat, they like you, they don't like
(19:14):
that person. You know, theymake decisions in choices, in everything.
So I think. Did that help youdevelop a relationship between. You
mentioned it a bit ago. Animalethics in human flourishing.
Absolutely. Yeah. I think, Ithink the thing that really got me
(19:36):
was this bizarre experience Ihad. You know, when you. The thing
about animal consciousness,this feeling that maybe other creatures
are sentience too, you know,with lives of their own, is that
it dawns slowly. Right. Ithink everybody has had the experience
of loving a dog, or manypeople have. Maybe not everybody
(19:59):
loving a dog, loving a cat,loving a cockatiel, loving a horse,
but it's something different.To get that uncanny feeling, wow,
this is a personalintelligence or this is it, right?
I mean, it, it, it's like it'spretty easy to treat companion animals
as furniture for a littlewhile and then sort of in the course
(20:21):
of the relationship, it dawnson you there's something more complicated
going on. And at the momentthat I think I realized, holy smokes,
it's no longer possible for meto think of animals as sort of second
class beings, was when thisweird thing would happen. So Gus
loved company. He was our. Ourbulldog. And he despised it when
(20:44):
we would get suitcases out.And I always thought this was odd,
you know, like, why. Why doesthis dog hate it when we get suitcases?
I mean, I hadn't considered atthe time that this really complex
biography was unfolding in hislife, right? Why did the suitcases
(21:05):
make him mad? One day he gotso mad that he went to the middle
of our dining room, which islike the epicenter of our hospitality.
It's where he had seenhundreds and hundreds of meals with.
Our house is kind of arevolving door with friends and family
and activists coming to town.And I, you know, founded a festival.
And so we always had people inthe house. And Gus went right to
(21:30):
the middle of the room andjust took a dump, right? In protest
of seeing this luggage. Ithought, what is going on here? Like
this. This is really makinghim furious. And then it dawned on
me. He knows that we'releaving, and he is desperate either
to convince us not to leave orto show us how furious he is that
(21:54):
we'd have the audacity to dothis again after what he had to endure
last time. And this feelingjust chilled me to the bone, right?
Because as a philosopher,rather than just letting, I started
thinking through all thecomplex cognitive and emotional processes
that have to be up and runningin his being in order for this to
(22:15):
make sense, right? So he seesthe suitcase, and it's not just a
matter of perception. There'sa previous experience with seeing
the suitcase, which means thatmemory is up and running. And it's
not just a memory. It's amemory that creates in him anxiety,
right? He doesn't like this.It doesn't feel good to him. And
(22:36):
then it's enough to createagency. He makes a plan. He wants
to tell me that this issomething that makes him fearful.
And then when I don't listenand I keep packing the bag, he goes
into the dining room and makesit clear beyond a shadow of a doubt
that this is unacceptable.That's not second class being, right?
(22:59):
That is creaturely flourishingto a baffling degree. And I realized
this dog has a past. This dogcan project into the future. To have
anxiety when you see a pieceof luggage means that there's a biography,
(23:21):
there's a story, there'spersistence through time, there's
consciousness of the worldaround. And that thought left me
both dazzled and horrified.It. It was dazzling because I had
never. I mean, it. I. It wasthe moment I Came to terms with the
(23:42):
fact that all these otherbeings have biographies, right?
They're.
They're persons in. In theirown way. But it was also horrifying
because I realized this meantthat billions of other creatures
biologically just like Gus,morally indistinguishable from Gus.
(24:04):
We're not just living in apainful present, but had lives that
stretched out through a pastthat could generate anxiety about
the future. Suffering in themoment. That's not just about persistence,
but that's about dread. Andthat, Michael, that. That realization,
I think, was what moved meinto a completely different level
(24:28):
of animal consciousness. And.And that's when I had to face, right,
that this is suffering. Right?This is. This is not just one bad
day, as they sometimes say.This is a life of oppression. And
so. Absolutely right. Theshort. You'll never get a short answer
(24:48):
out of me. I apologize forthat. But the. The short answer to
your question is absolutelyright. That experience with an animal
creature is what moved me intothat space of animal ethics and food
ethics. Because when Irealized, holy smokes, animals have
biographies at the same timewe're treating them as property that
(25:10):
we turn into food. That is acontroversial matter for ethics.
And it's time to inhabit themoral point of view in a more rigorous
way than I had had the courageto inhabit it before.
Yeah, it's really interesting,your experiences in regard to that
and how it changed you. And,you know, we can all see that. If
(25:31):
you think about if you own apet, you own a dog, you have a fur
baby in your home or even onthe farm, you know, reality is, Charlie
recognizes when Diane pullsthe bag of cheese out, because Diane
police cheese. And heunderstands that, oh, cheese, that
bag. I recognize that sound.Or when you start the can opener
(25:53):
or, you know, anything alongthat line, he'll tell me when it's
time to eat. He knows it's. Wefeed him at 5:30, we feed him in
the morning, we. And at 5:30in the morning, we feed him at 5:30
in the evening. And at 5:30he's sitting in front of me like,
do you know what time it is?
I know what time it is, Michael.
(26:16):
So, you know, when you look atthis, you can see compassion. You
see sadness. You see, youknow, you see the anxiety when you
leave. Then you see thehappiness when you come home. And
you know, those kind ofthings, I think, resonate with us.
You can see it is. I havewatched videos where you see a cow
(26:38):
literally crying when theyknow they're going to go through
the slaughter thing. And, youknow, you see the desperation of
pigs that are crammed into theback of a truck, that you can see
that their fear. And you cansee they're scared. You can see that
they have emotions like we ashuman beings have emotions. And I
think that, yes, I understandthat the food industry from that
(27:03):
perspective is never going tocease because obviously we are carnivores,
we are herbivores, and we area combination of both. But in regard
to the, again, the, theethical and the moral aspect of how
we, we work within thatcommunity, that industry, I, I do
think needs to change to apoint because, you know, it is, it
(27:26):
is a. And, and, and, andobviously we could go down a real
big rabbit hole with this.But, you know, it, you know, I think
that part of it is acorporate, the corporate concept
of how much can I get through,how much can I do? You know, I don't
treat these animals as ananimal. I treat them as properties.
What you just said, right? Iknow there's a lot of misconceptions
(27:50):
about being vegan. I'vetalked, I've spoken to a few of them
throughout my podcast,especially in the early portion.
What are some of the biggestmisconceptions about veganism and
how we, you know, some ofthese people think, well, how can
I get, how can I build muscle?How can I, how can I live on this?
How, where's my protein? Youknow, I get those questions all the
(28:13):
time, you know, what do youeat? You know, and I said, I eat
the same thing you do. I justdo it in a different way. I do, you
know, approach it from this.So can you help us understand some
of the biggest misconceptionsabout vegan? Veganism?
Yeah. So I think, you know,one of the biggest misconceptions
that I run into in theclassroom is just that, you know,
(28:34):
going vegan is primarily apath of deprivation. Right. That
going vegan is about beingagainst things that are terrible
and sort of reorienting yourlife to try to perfectionistically
never do these terrible thingsagain. And one of the most important
(28:57):
features I think, of HungryBeautiful Animals is the attempt
to kind of flip the scriptthere and say, no, you know, what
going vegan is about is theopportunity for deeper, richer flourishing.
Right. The reason that vegansare against suffering is because
we're for creaturelyflourishing. And so that, I think,
(29:21):
is one of the keymisconceptions that going vegan is
about scarcity, it's aboutopposing suffering, it's about stringent
abstention from doing thingsor supporting things that are bad.
I think actually at itsessence, going vegan is about opportunity,
(29:43):
it's about abundance. It'sabout right, doing things that will
make the world a more truthfuland beautiful and good place for
all creatures to be. Anothermisconception, right? Although it's,
it's getting easier to, toavoid this illusion these days because
(30:04):
nutrition science has made anawful lot of progress. But the protein
myth, right, where, where dopeople get our protein? And I think
now we have resources, right?Like Michael Greger's nutrition facts.org
where anyone who has anyskeptical questions about whether
a plant based diet can, youknow, be one of, of joy and good
(30:27):
health, spend even 15 minuteson nutrition facts.org and you'll
see the science, and nutritionscience specifically is very much
confirmed. Not just that onecan do well on a plant based diet,
but there's all sorts ofhealth benefits and even the possibility
for deep healing of some ofthe diseases of affluence that have
(30:50):
become coin of the realm,right, in, in a place where we eat
upwards of 220 pounds, right,of meat per person per year, 25 times
the amount that an averageBangladeshi will eat. So that's the
second myth, I think, anothermyth that I mean, and I don't, I
(31:12):
want to be careful herebecause this is one of those things
that really differs fromperson to person. It can be difficult
to find a well balanced, wholefoods, plant based diet depending
on where you live. And so Idon't want to discriminate against
people who have less, lessaccess or, or less food autonomy
(31:33):
or less food sovereignty, youknow, the ability to decide what
their food shed is going to beand, and, and eat from it in the
ways that they'd like to. ButI think on balance it is much easier
now to eat foods that lookvery much like what you're used to
(31:55):
that just come from differentsources, right? So now we have burgers
that are virtuallyindistinguishable from, from beef
burgers. We have sausages andegg substitutes and all these things
right now they're a little bitmore expensive. But nobody has to
forego forever, right, themouth feel the experience, the, the
(32:18):
nostalgia, right, of, of thesefoods they really love. So I don't
want to say it's a myth thatgoing vegan is, is difficult because
for some people, I, I want tohonor the fact for some people it's
harder than others. For somepeople, easier than others. Privilege
and affluence, of course havea lot to do with those things. But
(32:39):
generally Speaking most peoplethese days, even in some places where
you'd be surprised, can go inand find really delicious plant based
options at the grocery store,in restaurants. And so yeah, those
are three things that I thinkpeople are commonly concerned about
(33:00):
that once you get into it alittle ways, it turns out, oh no,
you know, it's, it's not aboutabstention and scarcity at all. It's
about abundance. It's actuallyquite easy to meet those nutritional
needs and it's easy to eatdelicious food that's accessible
in your average hotel and youraverage restaurant. Even in increasingly
(33:24):
in college cafeterias nowthere are entire cafeterias. The
University of North Texas hasa cafeteria that is 100% plant based.
So the world is changing and Ithink that's making greener eating
easier than ever.
That's a really good thing. Imean I obviously I loved it when
(33:45):
like beyond meat came out in,in the, in the beginning and they
worked on that and you wouldfeel you're eating a burger. I mean
when I say feel becauseobviously we know as individuals
that really appreciate food.You know, it's a combination of not
just taste, it's acombination, it's a visual, it's
a smelling, it's a taste, it'sa feel. It all applies together.
(34:09):
When you will pick up a pieceof food to want to eat it or when
you get a plate put in frontof you, you know, it's always, you
touch all of those senses inregard to that and your body then
adapts. That goes, hey, thisis, you know, this is what this is
and I'm looking forward tothis. So yeah, it gives us the opportunity
to kind of enjoy that again.You know, if you have switched to
(34:31):
being a vegan, I know there'ssome people, I have friends of mine
that have their kids grew upvegan and so they know nothing different,
you know, kind of a thing. Youcan't see my hands going all over
the place. They know nothingdifferent. So, so I think that what
you had mentioned is that thefood systems are transforming in
(34:56):
regards to that. That'samazing that they've got some university
campuses that have got veganoptions, number one and full vegan
dining halls. That's somethingI think that I think is a very positive
step in the right direction.How can the food systems, transformations
like that contribute to a morelike compassionate, sustainable world?
(35:19):
We want to talk aboutsustainability. Becoming a vegan
contributes to humanity, theplanet Earth, our environment, sustaining
itself. I just had aconversation that's going to go up
effectively and went up todaywhere we talked about bees and the
contribution to bees andbelieve it or not, locusts and how
(35:44):
those contributions to thissociety help sustain the earth environment,
which then helps humanssustain and animals sustain and the
environment to sustain and theecological system work the way it's
supposed to work. So that's along question, isn't it? Okay, that's
(36:05):
a good one. Food systemtransformations can contribute to
more compassionate andsustainable world.
Yeah, I, I mean, I, I love along question because it shows just
how complex, right, thissituation really is. And, and to
ask this questionappropriately, you really do need
to give a nod to all thosedifferent levels, right, that food
(36:27):
systems touch. I mean, one ofthe things I love about being a part
of food systems conversationsis everyone, you know, is party to
the discussion. And once youstart to study food systems, you
realize from the soil to thestratosphere, everything, right,
from the microorganisms inthe, in the soil that we use to grow,
(36:49):
the grain that we use to feedthe animals that we use to turn in.
I mean, you, there's not a, Abetter example that I can think of
of how everything from top tobottom is linked, is one, right?
The flourishing or languishingcomes packaged as a whole. And, you
know, when I'm teaching onthese things, the way that I like
(37:12):
to try to help people see thewhole business is just to take the
example of what it makes tobring, say, a steak or a piece of
chicken or eggs right to yourplate. And I think a lot of times
we focus only on the sufferingof the animal. And I think it makes
a lot of sense to, to placethe emphasis there because from the
(37:35):
moral point of view, that isa, a dire, urgently important question.
But when we only focus onthat, we miss all the other layers
here. And what's going on,right, Is that if you want to eat
collectively, you know, 220pounds of meat per person per year,
(37:57):
well, that meat doesn't justdescend from Platonic heaven, right?
You've got to grow all thatmeat. And because growing meat means
growing physical organisms,right, individual creatures, well,
you've got to feed them,you've got to get them water, you've
got to provide them housing.When you feed living organisms food
(38:21):
and water, what happens? Theyproduce waste. When you have 80 billion
land animals that you'reslaughtering a year, that you're
giving all this food, thatyou're giving all this water, that
you're stressing the topsoilto grow, all that grain that you're
confining that, right, theirflatulence and their urine and their
(38:41):
feces have to be storedsomewhere right here. You can see
it's not just about animals.It's about grain, it's about water,
it's about oil that we use tomake the pesticides and the herbicides
and the fertilizers that weneed to support all this massive
grain growth. It's about allthe externalities that pulling all
(39:07):
those things out of the earth,putting them into the metabolisms
of living creatures and thenhaving those excreted out back into
the planet's water systemsand, and waste systems. You know,
this is our current foodsystem, a massive generator of harms.
(39:29):
And then when you think about,well, how does this animal go from,
you know, being a livingorganism to being a steak or a pork
chop? Well then you've got tohave a human workforce that has to
systematically, hundreds oftimes in a day, deny the cries for
mercy of fellow livingcreatures as they move along an assembly
(39:53):
line. And then people wonderwhy, right, the mental illness rates
are higher, why the physicaldebilitation rates are higher and
spousal abuse and crime ratesand etc around these operations.
Because the emotional traumaof working in these operations, the
(40:16):
physical danger of working inthese operations are deeply problematic
from the moral point of view,from the standpoint of human worker
justice, right? Completelyaside from the moral harms that are
inflicted on, on fellowsentient creatures. So just by looking
(40:37):
at what's on your plate andtracing that back to all, all the
things that have to be done inorder for the pork chop to be there
in front of you, you know,it's a reminder of how from the soil
to the stratosphere, our dailychoices create externalities, create
massive moral and practicalharms. And you know, if we want 10
(41:02):
billion human beings by 2050,if we want to have an Earth that
can sustain life on the planetby 2100, if we want to create a labor
force where people don't haveto wear diapers because the assembly
line is moving so fast and isso relentless that they don't have
(41:23):
time for bathroom breaks,right? We have got to change our
preference patterns and theway that we're spending our money.
But those aren't things thatare easy to see when you're just
looking at a sumptuouslooking, delicious smelling, right,
hockey puck sized piece offlesh on the plate. Those are the
(41:44):
farthest things from ourminds. And obviously in that moment
we don't want to think aboutthe harms that are radiating from,
from that experience ofdeliciousness. Short sighted as it
is.
You know, it is interestingwhen you. I watch a lot of National
(42:05):
Geographic, I watch a lot ofjackana. It's unfortunate he's got
the disease, he has tickingall that away. But in learning all
of this, you watch where theanimal kingdom understands the balance
that they need between whatthey eat and whether or not they're
(42:26):
killing for the, you know,nothing more than survival. You can
see where if a pack of lions,I guess you call them a pack of lions,
could be a herd of lions. Packof lions, herd of lions.
The pride. I believe it is a pride.
There we go, pride of lions.You can watch where, you know, if
(42:47):
they've already eaten for theday, they can sit right next to a
whole herd of antelope orwhole herd of something else in regard.
And they don't bother eachother because they understand the
balance that we need in orderfor survival of everyone. Because
(43:09):
if they go through and eateverything in sight, they know that
there won't be any food nextweek with an understanding. So from
a again long question, so fromthat perspective, how do you see
our responsibility as acommunity or society to cooperate,
(43:30):
Achieving the goals of animalethics and, and maybe the, the food
justice, I guess would be agood word.
Yeah. So what I'm trying to doin my book Hungry Beautiful Animals
is really convince people thatthis is not a path of scarcity, suffering,
(43:51):
obligation so much as it is anopportunity to be the change we want
to see in our world from thesoil to the stratosphere, right.
That by, by eating moreplants, by eating less meat, eventually,
I hope by transitioning fullyto a plant based diet and entering
(44:12):
right. The space of abundancethat comes with that transition,
expanding our consciousness ofthe flourishing of other sentient
creatures. That happens rightwhen, when we're no longer eating
animals, it becomes mucheasier to consider who they actually
are. Right. I mean, it's hardto have a conversation about how
(44:33):
intelligent pigs are whenyou're halfway through a pork chop.
But nobody wants to experiencethat, that cognitive distance. But
once you've sort of moved in aplant based direction, suddenly where
you know, you were defensivein the middle of eating a pork chop,
you can get curious, right?There's this transition that happens
(44:54):
from defensiveness around theabilities and intelligence and, and
sociality and, and emotionalnature of, of fellow sentient creatures
to a curiosity about how thatworks. And so I think this evolving
journey of going vegan, westart with baby steps. We start with,
(45:18):
you know, exploring newexciting plant based options that
expand the range of the Thingsthat we're eating, we move steadily
away from that standardAmerican diet that we know is generating
diseases of affluence, makingit harder to live vibrant lives.
We start to experience thosephysical health benefits. We start
(45:40):
to get more curious about allthe other benefits that are happening.
And over the course of, youknow, a couple years of experiments
in this regard, we startseeing how we, ourselves, with our
unique talents and gifts, canbecome leavening agents in this transformation
(46:02):
of social consciousness thatwe need. And what I mean by that,
Michael, is that, you know,Hungry Beautiful Animals is not about
a one size fits all approachto going vegan. It's about encouraging
people to see that their ownevolution in the direction of all
these improvements andbenefits can inspire them to be leavening
(46:25):
agents in the world in waysthat only they can be. So if you're,
if you're like Michael andsuddenly you are, you know, have
a media company and you'remaking podcasts, well, you can invite
vegans on to talk about that.You know, if you're working in a
law firm and you're somebodywho, you know, wants to make the
(46:48):
service project for all ofyour 200 employees that particular
year to be focused on animalwelfare, well, then you can do that.
If you're a professor or akindergarten teacher or somebody
who's a motivational speaker,you can integrate these issues into
the content that you'redelivering to help other people aspire
(47:11):
to do better. If you're acustodian at a high school, you can
see this as an opportunity tomaybe address the food waste issues
and start a recycling programor a composting program, right? I
mean, every single person onthe planet eats, and every single
person on the planet isengaged in this system. And that
(47:35):
means every single person onthe planet can be inspired by taking
account of what their giftsand abilities and passions are, and
then channel those into thisset of practices, going vegan, that
over time can catalyze achange that could transform the world
(47:57):
on a grand scale. So this isreally about encouraging people to
find their own personaljourneys of transformation that then
enable them and empower themto go out into the world and share
that right with the people intheir. In their own areas of influence.
(48:20):
And none of us has to bearthe. The weight of the world on our
shoulders, right? I mean, inthe account that I'm trying to offer,
all you got to do is worryabout how your diet, your unique
talents and gifts, yourvocational life, your friendships,
your social life, that tinylittle area of influence that you,
(48:41):
a human being, with feet madeof clay, someone who's error prone,
someone who's definitely goingto make some mistakes. You're not
going to transform the world,but you can transform that tiny little
patch of earth that you callhome. And if we all work at our own
little patch, well, prettysoon we're going to have a quilt.
(49:01):
And if that quilt gets bigenough because of the impact of the
way these things work, theworld could be a totally different
place in 50 to 100 years. Andthat, that's the hope, right? Maybe
it'll take us longer, maybe200, but we, we need to do this soon
because the impact of the waywe're currently doing it is not sustainable
(49:27):
for much longer. And so nobetter time than the present.
I agree, I agree. And I thinkanybody that's a vegan right now,
if you want to be an activistin regard to this, it's you. There
are some steps there and someconcepts in your book that will allow
people to move forward withhelping this whole thing. On the
same note, there areindividuals that listen to this that
(49:49):
may be on the cusp of, or onthe fence, the old cliche of whether
or not they really want to gointo this lifestyle or whether or
not they're going tounderstand that eating this way is
a better benefit tothemselves. Practicing a vegan lifestyle
is a benefit not only to us,but to our environment. What advice
(50:10):
could you give someone who isconsidering. Excuse me. As I clear
my throat. Let me try thatquestion again. If I remember it.
What advice would you givesomeone who's considering transitioning
to a vegan lifestyle but feelsoverwhelmed by the idea how can we
help them to transition into.I told you how I did it. It was real
(50:32):
simple because the way I didit. But there are people that have
lived a, shall we callregular, I guess, regular lifestyle,
you know, as a carnivore, youknow, and occasionally putting a
little bit of vegetables ontheir plate, you know, like I'm eating
vegetables. Look into this lifestyle.
(50:55):
I. One of the things that'sreally important to me is to remind
people again and again, it'snot a one size fits all. Everybody's
journey is going to bedifferent. And for that reason, I
tack hard away from the ideathat veganism a, a, a rigid set of
rules that, or, or anidentity, right, that you earn or
(51:18):
lose by what you eat on agiven day or what you wear on a given
day. I think identitarianconceptions of veganism are very
fragile because the minute youmake a mistake or if you haven't
decided if you want to adoptthe whole worldview yet, right? Well,
then you're, you're out everytime you make a mistake. Or maybe
(51:41):
you never start because you'reworried that only the perfect can
apply, right? For this vision,what I try to do instead, I want
to kick veganism, right? Rigidrule based ways of thinking about
this to one side and invitepeople instead to think of going
(52:02):
vegan. And what I mean bygoing vegan is, look, this is an
aspiration. It's not somethingwe do at one go. No human being can
actually be perfect at itbecause of the ways in which we're
intermeshed with everythingelse, right? Even if we never eat
another animal product again,you know, we're driving cars that
(52:24):
harm insects or we're eatingvegetables that have been raised
using pesticides or combinesthat affect field animals or. Right?
I mean, there is no way for afinite, error prone human being to
achieve a full fledged veganidentity. Totally cruelty free, completely
(52:46):
insulated, right from thevicissitudes of being a finite, error
prone creature. That's notsomething that's possible for human
beings. So I would discouragepeople from thinking of going vegan
as a stringent rule followingism and think of it instead as a
trajectory where they see thisvision. Wow, look how much more beautiful
(53:10):
the world could be if animalshad a fair shot at living flourishing
lives. If the earth wasn'tsuffering under the strain, right?
Of all of these difficultpractices for the environment and
wasting water and wastinggrain and wasting agricultural land,
(53:32):
what if our personal healthwere more resilient in our public
health, we had to worry lessabout pandemics and we had to worry
less about global hunter. Whatif that beautiful world that a transformed
food system could deliver tous? What if I just started to adopt
daily practices that moved meincrementally in that direction?
(53:57):
So I think diet is one of themore powerful ways to do that. Certainly
it's one of the moreefficacious ways to start moving
in that direction. But as Itell my students all the time, you
know, some people maybe don'thave the freedom to do this dietarily
at first. So maybe they do itby reading a bunch of books or watching
(54:17):
some documentary films orfocusing on expanding animal consciousness
or learning more about workerjustice, right? On my view, you're
going vegan so long as you'refinding practices that are moving
you in the general directionof that beautiful vision of a transformed
(54:37):
world. So, you know, how mightthis affect someone on the fence?
Well, I would say Lean intoyour curiosity. If you're thinking
to yourself, man, this looksreally interesting, but I'm worried
that I won't be perfect. Orthis looks really interesting, but
I don't want to become one ofthose bunny huggin lunatics who judges
everybody. Or this looksreally interesting, but I don't want
(54:59):
to fall into this set ofstereotypes. I say more power to
you. Follow your curiosity. Dothe things that look like they'll
be blessings to you andblessings to the people in your immediate
spheres of influence. And whatI've seen happen to many, many, many
people over the years, as youknow, somebody who's been doing vegan
(55:21):
education now for two decades,those baby steps help people to gain
confidence. Those baby stepsturn into bigger and bigger victories
and more and more highlyevolved moral and environmental consciousness.
And before you know it, thosepeople who wondered, well, you know,
(55:43):
how can I eat differently atall? Are now trying to figure out
how can my career as anattorney or how can my career as
an environmental justiceadvocate, or how can my career as
a business person, or how canmy career as an entrepreneur or a
custodian or a kindergartenteacher help the world woo the world
(56:05):
right into seeing what thistransformation has to offer them.
So my advice is lean into thecuriosity. Tack away from those defensive
feelings. You're not going tobe able to do this all at once. String
together a few tiny littlevictories spurred on by your curiosity.
(56:28):
And I predict then as yourconfidence grows, your curiosity
expands, your consciousnessbecomes, right, more engaged, your
path widens. It's shocking howtransformational this path can be
(56:49):
if you have the courage tolean into your curiosity instead
of letting that, those fewremaining defensive, skeptical worries,
right. Keep you from takingthat first step. So lean into curiosity.
Be wary of those defensivefeelings that arise when we're kind
(57:10):
of in fear of perfectionism orin fear that we have to be the perfect
vegan. I say banish thosethoughts, kick perfectionism and
shame and blame to the curband say, how can I follow curiosity
into something beautiful here?And let's not think about the destination,
let's, let's think about thenext tiny little step and see where
(57:33):
we end up.
Sounds like a wonderfulphilosophy that we should all incorporate
into our life.
Well, I hope so. I, I, I'vetried very, very hard to make this
a book for everyone, right? Tome, you, you don't have to be somebody
with the word vegan tattooedacross your neck, right? Or somebody
(57:55):
who is, you know, on fire forenvironmental justice. I mean, I
think this is something thatevery Person who wants to move a,
a fragile body full ofthoughts and feelings and a desire
for joy. This is a paththat's, that's open to everyone.
And you know, as I tell myactivist friends all the time, something
(58:19):
I need to remind myself fromtime to time, what we want from our
advocacy is for this to becomecommon sense.
Yeah.
I mean, hopefully one day wewon't even need the V word because
it wouldn't occur to anyonethat we need to do all these things
and cause all these harms toeat a delicious, sustainable, earth
(58:40):
friendly, health friendlydiet. I mean, my dream is that one
day it'll seem as strange tous, you know, that once upon a time
we, we ate animals and inorder to do that we caused. Right.
All these, these, we'vewreaked all these terrible things
to happen across the planetand into the lives of our fellow
(59:03):
human beings. I mean that'llseem as, as strange to us as it now
seems that we were willing toenslave human beings or that we were
willing right to. I meanthere's so many things that would
have seemed shocking, right.200 years ago that are now common
(59:24):
sense for everyone. Doesn'tmatter what their political identity
is, doesn't matter right.Where they're coming from or what
their experience base is. Myhope is a revolution in food is that
next step. Right. That goesbeyond identity politics, that goes
beyond. Right. Ourexperiential differences and something
(59:45):
that just everyone will oneday take for granted. That's the
hope. Anyway.
I think we should all hope forthat. I think it's a wonderful, again,
an amazing opportunity, abrilliant opportunity for us to be
able to take an activeapproach to all of this. And I like
to tell when people questionme in regard to whether or not we
get enough protein or whetheror not what I'm eating, I say the
(01:00:08):
largest land animal in theworld is a vegan and a gorilla. The
elephant and a gorilla is amassive as a gorilla and the strength
that gorilla has is a vegan.So you know, don't be afraid of that.
I had to throw that in there,so just toss it. Absolutely. Tell
(01:00:32):
people how they can give somehelp, how, how they can get involved
and how to get your book. Andyou have so many opportunities on
there like Tom's story andJoanna's story and we can even buy
lunch for a donkey.
HungryBeautifulAnimals.com isthe website. The title was weird
(01:00:52):
enough, Michael, that the dotcom address was still available so
we, we took advantage of that.But lots of resources there. So on
the resources page, you canfind a whole bunch of ways to start
your journey into going veganthat don't necessarily require right
an an overnight flip of theswitch, ways to build your consciousness,
(01:01:15):
ways to help individualanimals, ways to make connections
between justice for humanbeings and justice for members of
other species. Lots and lotsof things there on the resource page.
Of course, you can buy thebook anywhere books are sold. There
are links there on thewebsite. And I want to call readers
attention in particular yet tothe stories page. And that's where
(01:01:38):
people who have read anddigested the message of hungry, beautiful
animals talk a little bit intheir own voice about how this opportunity
is unfolding in their ownlives. And I encourage, you know,
readers who want to sharestories to reach out through the
website because we're alwayslooking for new stories to feature
(01:02:01):
and maybe your story is theone that will inspire an untold number
of folks to, to follow in yourfootsteps and to find that one more
thing before they go. I thinkthis is a beautiful path to travel.
And hungrybeautifulanimals.comit could be your first step.
(01:02:21):
There you go. And I'll makesure that there's a link in the show
notes so that everybody has aneasy way to find it. You won't even
have to look for. Just clickit and it'll wonder. Well, thank
you very much for being on theshow. I really appreciate it. This
is one more thing before wego. So I always ask, is there any
words of wisdom before we go?
I think look for joy in aworld brimming with suffering. It's
(01:02:48):
so easy to focus on theoverwhelming amounts of suffering
in the world, the overwhelmingamounts of oppression in the world.
But until we find our joy andmaximize that joy among the members
of our inner families, ourefficacy, our power, our motivation
to go out into the world andmake it a joyful place is going to
(01:03:13):
have a harder time finding us.And so my advice, one more thing
before you go, find joy andnourish your inner family. Because
if you treat all those partsof yourself well, the physical you,
the emotional you, the socialyou, the intellectual you, the moral
you, the power that you willhave for taking it to the street
(01:03:37):
and helping others to findtheir joy will be so, so much richer
and your enthusiasm will bemore contagious. So go for the joy.
It's a joyful case for going vegan.
Brilliant words of wisdom.Thank you very much for sharing those.
I appreciate them very much.Again, Matt, thank you very much
(01:03:58):
for coming on the show. Thankyou very much for spreading your
wisdom, your wealth ofknowledge, your expertise and your
passion for taking thisforward. I appreciate you.
Well, speaking of joy, it hasbeen a rich one. Thank you, Michael.
Grateful as well. For everyonein the One More Thing before you
go community, thank you verymuch for being part of this community.
(01:04:20):
Everything we just spokeabout, you'll be able to connect
with Matt and let me startthis over just a second. For everyone
else in the One More Thingbefore we Go community, again, thank
you very much for being partof this community. I will have everything
in connecting Matthew inhelping you on your vegan journey
(01:04:44):
or helping you to become avegan activist, how to get his book
and some resources and buy alunch for a donkey. You have to.
And one more thing before youall go. Have a great day. Have a
great week and thank you forbeing here. Thanks for listening
to this episode of One MoreThing before youe Go. Check out our
website at before you Go podcast.
(01:05:05):
Com.
You can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
Hey, one more thing before yougo. Have you ever considered how
your food choices impact notjust your health, but the world around
you? I talk about it all thetime on the show. Or how living a
vegan lifestyle could be aprofound expression of philosophy
and ethics. Stay tuned becausewe're going to explore living life
as a vegan, discovering theintersection of animal ethics, food
(00:21):
systems and philosophy as away of life, and how the ideas in
Hungry Beautiful Animals, hisnew book, can be put into practice
for real life change. I'm yourhost, Michael Hurst. Welcome to One
more thing before you go. Dr.Matthew Haltiman is a professor of
(00:48):
philosophy at CalvinUniversity, a fellow at the Oxford
center for Animal Ethics, andan ardent advocate for human flourishing,
animal freedom, and foodsystems transformation. His new book,
Hungry Beautiful Animals, is aheartfelt, humane, and even hilarious
account of why rule obsessedvegan practices fail and how focusing
(01:10):
on flourishing can lead to anabundant future for everyone. As
an author, teacher, and anadvocate, Dr. Alterman is committed
to exploring how the choiceswe make around food can shape a more
compassionate, sustainable,and joyful world, which we all need.
He serves on the board ofseveral animal advocacy and food
justice organizations. And hislife pursuits include practicing
(01:34):
partnership, parenting,friendship, and indulging in vegan
desserts, which I am all infor. Matt, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much, Michael. I'mthrilled to be here. And you were
right to lead with desserts.That is probably why one of my greatest
passions in life, especiallyvegan tiramisu. And I can tell you,
(01:56):
for those interested in Hungrybeautiful animals, my recipe, 20
years in the making, isappendix B. So you too can enjoy
my favorite vegan dessert. ButI have to say, I can't miss this
opportunity to say that Iresonate a lot with the idea behind
your podcast, because wephilosophers, at least in the tradition
(02:16):
that I come from, thinking ofphilosophy as a way of life, we think
of philosophy as training fordeath. And so I see myself as an
educator, as trying to getpeople to do one more thing before
they go really, really well,because you just never know when
your time is coming. And soliving with joy and curiosity and
(02:37):
striving to live the goodlife, there's not a moment to lose.
So I'm really glad to be herefor a conversation that I think is
in deep resonance with your mission.
Very, very grateful for that.Yeah, life can change in an instant.
And vegan tiramisu. Italianhere. Okay. Vegan tiramisu. I haven't
(02:58):
had tiramisu for 25 years.
Michael, your Life is about tochange. This podcast is going to
be a transformation for thehost for once.
Absolutely, absolutely lookingforward to that. But we've got much
more podcast important thingsto talk about. Although a tiramisu
(03:18):
is important, but let's talkabout. We got so many things we gotta
discuss and kind of hopefullyto inspire, motivate and educate
people into a lifetransformation which doesn't have
to be abrupt, it can be gentleand you can take your time, but it
is beneficial to you in ourlives and others lives as well as
(03:38):
our environment. And so manythings that becoming a vegan or living
the vegan lifestyle can helpus to contribute to the world. But
I like to start at thebeginning. Where'd you grow up?
I grew up in Wheaton,Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago,
about 26 miles west. And mypeople are actually from eastern
(04:03):
Pennsylvania. So I come fromeastern Pennsylvania, agricultural
Mennonite stock. Both of mygrandparents on both sides were in
agriculture. My paternalgrandfather was an egg farmer and
my maternal grandfather washerbicide and pesticide chemist.
(04:24):
So though I grew up inChicago, my roots, my people are
Mennonites from easternPennsylvania. So food right, not
just at every meal, but atevery celebration, every time we
mourn, every time we dohospitality, food is there. But food
was also the vocationalpursuit right on both sides of my
(04:48):
family until my dad decided tobecome a professor and my mom a spiritual
director and fair tradeactivist. So we ended up in the west
suburbs of Chicago. But foodright is pretty deep in my history
and it's, it's why I'm soexcited about and passionate about
the transformation of food systems.
(05:10):
I think that's an amazingopportunity, you know, for the whole
way around. Coming from yourenvironment, how do you develop such
a deep commitment to humanflourishing, animal freedom and food
systems, especially thetransformation portion of it. And
how does communal cooperationcome into play with that? Because
you mentioned Mennonite kindof environment, how does all that
(05:32):
play into that?
Yeah, so, you know, Mennonitesare well known for the desire to,
you know, be the hands andfeet of Jesus in a suffering world.
A lot of Christians that Iknew in the west suburbs of Chicago
grew up in a form ofChristianity that really emphasized
(05:53):
beliefs and belief system anddefending beliefs and being right
about the beliefs. And um, theMennonites do it a little bit differently.
It, it always in my traditionwas about action, about being salt
and light in a world full ofsuffering. And so I wasn't thinking
much about the metaphysicsuntil a little later when I became
(06:15):
a Philosophy professor. Forme, it was always about, well, how
do we live our lives in a waythat provides service right to others?
And in my family tradition, asI mentioned, agriculture was the
way that we thought aboutthat. The idea was that the world
needs high quality protein.And a lot of people in the world
(06:39):
who don't have access to thatcan benefit from the green revolution
in agriculture can benefitfrom these herbicides and pesticides
that allow us to grow a lotmore grain and get the animals off
the pasture and inside intoconfined feeding operations and the
like. And you know, back whenthis was happening initially, I mean,
(07:03):
I think it's so easy to lookback in retrospect and imagine people
in agriculture as right, thesehorrible people who are sort of forecasting
a dystopic future greedily,right, to try to gobble up all the
profits. But on the contrary,you know, for my family, this was
a part of a, a Christianvision for helping other people you've
(07:24):
never met before by providinghigh quality protein to them through
innovations in, in scienceand, and, and food technology. So
deep, deep in my roots is thisidea that service to others and the
transformation of the world infavor of more joy and more beauty
(07:45):
and less suffering was toprovide food for people. And so obviously
we human beings, our feet aremade of clay. We know sometimes our
best intentions don't turn outthe way we hoped they would. And
I think right when we look nowat some of the challenges our current
food system is facing, we seepretty clearly that there are some
(08:09):
big problems here for the waythat we're treating the human beings
who work in these systems, forthe way that we're treating the animals
who are raised and slaughteredwithin it. And of course, the way
we're treating the Earth andthe use of finite resources to get
it. And so my passion for foodstuff is really, I think, you know,
(08:30):
it might seem counterintuitivebecause a lot of people think, oh,
you're a vegan, but you'refrom, you know, agricultural Mennonite
stock. How does this work? AndI guess I think, well, a big part
of being a humble servant ofothers is to realize that sometimes
the strategies you startedfrom need to adapt and evolve, right?
So in order to do the samething, to serve a suffering world
(08:54):
with better food options, weneed to recalibrate the message a
little bit to serve this thesame mission. And so I actually see
what I'm doing as acontinuation of what my grandfathers
hope to do. You know, theyhope to feed people and make the
world a better Place, I'mlooking for the same thing. But I
(09:15):
think that we need torecalibrate the way that we do that
both as individuals and interms of the way that we raise and,
and distribute food. So somemight see it as a radical break.
I actually see, you know, myinterest in, in vegan education as
(09:36):
a continuation of, of apassion that's been in my family
for many generations to makethe world a better place by looking
carefully at the way we eat.
Well, you know, it'sinteresting because when you, when
you look the, the evolvementof all of that, the evolvement of
even farming. When I, when Iwas a kid, I grew up on, partially
(09:59):
for a short, very, very shortperiod of time on a farm. And in
regard to watching how the,they did things, where we went out
to the pasture, we pulled thecows in, then the cows were hand
milked, they weren't milked bymachine, for example, and things
like this, I think that therewas a more personal contact with
the animals. You had a betterjourney with the animals. There was
(10:20):
more humane and again, this isjust, from my perspective, more humane
than what you see nowadayswhere they're all in a stall and
they're stuck in a stall andthey pretty much spend their lifetime
in a stall and so forth. So Ithink your approach to educating
individuals and trying totransform that journey for everyone
(10:41):
involved, to allow for morecompassion, more human contact, more
understanding that we're allin this together is a wonderful opportunity.
What is your journey from, inother words, how do you. In other
words, let me try that as adifferent question. How did your
(11:03):
journey come about intobecoming a vegan or veganism? Mine
itself. I think we talked alittle bit about it. It was an easy
transition for me. I went to aMediterranean diet and then from
there I learned how foodaffected my disease. So in understanding
how that took place, it tookme more along the line of becoming
a vegan and learning firsthandthrough the transformation of my
(11:29):
own body, my own health, myown journey. How did yours start?
Yeah, so I don't know. I, Iget the feeling in talking with you,
Michael, that you'll, you'llresonate with this. We human beings
are pretty complex people,right? And I always feel like, well,
there's not just one of me,there's many of me. Lots of different
(11:50):
things going on, and I'm thetype of person that has a hard time
changing or getting motivatedunless a whole bunch of the parts
inside are kind of have anepiphany or come together in a certain
way and I'll tell you what Imean, you know, we human beings,
we're physical organisms. Wehave social lives, we have emotions
(12:11):
that kind of regulate oursocial situations. We get a little
older and we have intellectuallives that enable us to kind of get
outside just the emotional andthe social and, and think from a
more disinterestedperspective. And, you know, as we
get better at that, we getthis moral point of view where we're
able to kind of abstractourselves from our own idiosyncratic
(12:33):
preferences and kind of try,at least for the purposes of living
a better life, to, to take thestandpoint of the universe and think
outside our own, you know,predilections and ideas. And with
all those things going on atonce, if you're like me, anyway,
sometimes those are at war,right? So, like, our gut wants a
(12:53):
burger, our heart wants tonuzzle a cow, and our mind is sort
of bobbling back and forthbetween wanting to defend the old
ways of eating and gettingcurious about new ways of eating.
And so for me, it really tookmultiple epiphanies inside that inner
family. And there were sort ofthree big ones that hit me emotionally,
(13:17):
intellectually, and socially.And it really took all three of those
to. To motivate me to makesome changes. Because as I discuss
in the book, you know, in highschool, I was the typical, you know,
corn fed Midwestern boy, noneck football player, captain of
the football team type ofperson, weightlifter and all that
(13:41):
good stuff. And I did not seebeing a vegan in my future, to say
the least. So when I was, Idon't know, 30 years old, ish, I
three things happened. So wegot a dog, and my wife grew up in
a dog family, I grew up in acat family. And our cats were relatively
(14:03):
aloof. And I was willing tosee them as kind of smart, ambulatory
organisms, but they neverstruck me as being unique, irreplaceable
individuals in quite the waythat I came to see animals after
meeting and living with a dog.So Susan said, when we can finally
have pets, right, when you.When we're out of this housing situation
(14:26):
that doesn't allow pets, we'regonna get a dog. And I don't care
what sort of dog, you get tochoose that. So we got a bulldog.
And this is before I knewanything about the selective breeding
practices that producebulldogs. That's a story for another
podcast. Unfortunately, it'snot a happy one. But, Gus, this bulldog
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convince me beyond a shadow ofa doubt that this is a canine person.
Now I'm not crazy, right? It'snot a human person. There's a lot
of really importantdifferences there. But a person nonetheless.
An irreplaceable individualwith likes and dislikes people he
can't stand, people he loves,foods that he wouldn't eat if his
(15:07):
life depended on it, versushis very favorite things, carrots.
This dog ate about six poundsof carrots a week. So the emotional
bolt from the blue was gettingto know Gus and realizing this dog
is a person. The intellectualchallenge came from a philosopher
friend who at a lunch one timesaid to me as I was eating a French
(15:30):
dip sandwich with some beefhanging out the bottom of this French
roll, he says, aren't you apacifist? And I was like, well, what's
that got to do with anything?Right? And eventually, in conversations
with him, ended up teaching aclass on food ethics that I thought
sure was going to give me 10knockdown, drag out arguments to
(15:50):
keep eating just exactly whatI had grown up eating and loving.
And then, much to my chagrin,the evidence persuaded me otherwise.
And then the socialtransformation came from my wife,
Susan, who is a really amazinghome cook. And, you know, she was
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kind of for years a vegetarianfor human development and sort of
global justice reasons andenvironmental reasons. I was an extremely
reluctant, you know,vegetarian by marriage. Sometimes,
you know, occasionally I'd geta port, a pit chicken on the way
home, especially if we were inan argument. So very, very reluctant
(16:32):
to do this. But when myemotional commitment to animals through
Gus and my intellectualcommitment to taking a harder look
at these issues came together,I was initially like, well, let's
just, you know, let's justkeep eating this way until I figure
out all the answers. And Susanwas like, no, let's do a vegan experiment.
I love to cook. I like to donew things. We can do this. And boy,
(16:57):
oh, boy, could we ever. Imean, she made things that were so
delicious. And we embarked ona social journey that convinced me
beyond a shadow of a doubtthat this would be a life of abundance
and not deprivation. So thosethree things, the emotional hit,
the intellectual hit, and thesocial hit, it took all three of
those things kind of happeningin rapid succession to convince me
(17:20):
that this was going to beabout transformation rather than
deprivation. And boy, am Igrateful to the fates, right, for
bringing those three thingstogether. Otherwise, who knows? I
might still be dangling shortrib bones as vampire fangs at family
events like I used to.
Yeah, it kind of changes yourphilosophy just a bit as a philosopher,
(17:44):
right?
Absolutely.
You know, it's interestingbecause when we look at animals,
we. Charlie, I'm pointing toCharlie down over my shoulder here.
He's laying behind me. Everyanimal we've ever had in our family,
we still call family. And youknow, it has always been that way.
Kids grew up that way withcats and with dogs and whatever we
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had had. I even owned a horseat one time. Well, it was a pony.
It's a Shetland pony. He's amini horse.
A little guy.
Yeah, mini horse. But yeah,I've always treated them with compassion
in regard to that. And it, youknow, even the cows that I milk,
I told you earlier, the pigsthat I slopped or the chickens that
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I fed always went out andtalked to them like they were people.
You know, I didn't go out andjust throw food at them and, you
know, milk them and then slapthem on the butt and tell them, get
out. It was a conversation.I'd say, hey, thank you for doing
this. Thank you for beinghere. And for some reason, and I
bring this up because I thinkit innately within my own heart and
my soul, I knew that they werea being. You know, they may not be
(18:52):
a human being, but they were abeing. So even at a young age, I
was able to recognize theconnection between an animal and
us. And you see within them,you see love and you see compassion.
And you mentioned it in whatyou just said with, you know, they
like this or they don't likethat, they like you, they don't like
(19:14):
that person. You know, theymake decisions in choices, in everything.
So I think. Did that help youdevelop a relationship between. You
mentioned it a bit ago. Animalethics in human flourishing.
Absolutely. Yeah. I think, Ithink the thing that really got me
(19:36):
was this bizarre experience Ihad. You know, when you. The thing
about animal consciousness,this feeling that maybe other creatures
are sentience too, you know,with lives of their own, is that
it dawns slowly. Right. Ithink everybody has had the experience
of loving a dog, or manypeople have. Maybe not everybody
(19:59):
loving a dog, loving a cat,loving a cockatiel, loving a horse,
but it's something different.To get that uncanny feeling, wow,
this is a personalintelligence or this is it, right?
I mean, it, it, it's like it'spretty easy to treat companion animals
as furniture for a littlewhile and then sort of in the course
(20:21):
of the relationship, it dawnson you there's something more complicated
going on. And at the momentthat I think I realized, holy smokes,
it's no longer possible for meto think of animals as sort of second
class beings, was when thisweird thing would happen. So Gus
loved company. He was our. Ourbulldog. And he despised it when
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we would get suitcases out.And I always thought this was odd,
you know, like, why. Why doesthis dog hate it when we get suitcases?
I mean, I hadn't considered atthe time that this really complex
biography was unfolding in hislife, right? Why did the suitcases
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make him mad? One day he gotso mad that he went to the middle
of our dining room, which islike the epicenter of our hospitality.
It's where he had seenhundreds and hundreds of meals with.
Our house is kind of arevolving door with friends and family
and activists coming to town.And I, you know, founded a festival.
And so we always had people inthe house. And Gus went right to
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the middle of the room andjust took a dump, right? In protest
of seeing this luggage. Ithought, what is going on here? Like
this. This is really makinghim furious. And then it dawned on
me. He knows that we'releaving, and he is desperate either
to convince us not to leave orto show us how furious he is that
(21:54):
we'd have the audacity to dothis again after what he had to endure
last time. And this feelingjust chilled me to the bone, right?
Because as a philosopher,rather than just letting, I started
thinking through all thecomplex cognitive and emotional processes
that have to be up and runningin his being in order for this to
(22:15):
make sense, right? So he seesthe suitcase, and it's not just a
matter of perception. There'sa previous experience with seeing
the suitcase, which means thatmemory is up and running. And it's
not just a memory. It's amemory that creates in him anxiety,
right? He doesn't like this.It doesn't feel good to him. And
(22:36):
then it's enough to createagency. He makes a plan. He wants
to tell me that this issomething that makes him fearful.
And then when I don't listenand I keep packing the bag, he goes
into the dining room and makesit clear beyond a shadow of a doubt
that this is unacceptable.That's not second class being, right?
(22:59):
That is creaturely flourishingto a baffling degree. And I realized
this dog has a past. This dogcan project into the future. To have
anxiety when you see a pieceof luggage means that there's a biography,
(23:21):
there's a story, there'spersistence through time, there's
consciousness of the worldaround. And that thought left me
both dazzled and horrified.It. It was dazzling because I had
never. I mean, it. I. It wasthe moment I Came to terms with the
(23:42):
fact that all these otherbeings have biographies, right?
They're.
They're persons in. In theirown way. But it was also horrifying
because I realized this meantthat billions of other creatures
biologically just like Gus,morally indistinguishable from Gus.
(24:04):
We're not just living in apainful present, but had lives that
stretched out through a pastthat could generate anxiety about
the future. Suffering in themoment. That's not just about persistence,
but that's about dread. Andthat, Michael, that. That realization,
I think, was what moved meinto a completely different level
(24:28):
of animal consciousness. And.And that's when I had to face, right,
that this is suffering. Right?This is. This is not just one bad
day, as they sometimes say.This is a life of oppression. And
so. Absolutely right. Theshort. You'll never get a short answer
(24:48):
out of me. I apologize forthat. But the. The short answer to
your question is absolutelyright. That experience with an animal
creature is what moved me intothat space of animal ethics and food
ethics. Because when Irealized, holy smokes, animals have
biographies at the same timewe're treating them as property that
(25:10):
we turn into food. That is acontroversial matter for ethics.
And it's time to inhabit themoral point of view in a more rigorous
way than I had had the courageto inhabit it before.
Yeah, it's really interesting,your experiences in regard to that
and how it changed you. And,you know, we can all see that. If
(25:31):
you think about if you own apet, you own a dog, you have a fur
baby in your home or even onthe farm, you know, reality is, Charlie
recognizes when Diane pullsthe bag of cheese out, because Diane
police cheese. And heunderstands that, oh, cheese, that
bag. I recognize that sound.Or when you start the can opener
(25:53):
or, you know, anything alongthat line, he'll tell me when it's
time to eat. He knows it's. Wefeed him at 5:30, we feed him in
the morning, we. And at 5:30in the morning, we feed him at 5:30
in the evening. And at 5:30he's sitting in front of me like,
do you know what time it is?
I know what time it is, Michael.
(26:16):
So, you know, when you look atthis, you can see compassion. You
see sadness. You see, youknow, you see the anxiety when you
leave. Then you see thehappiness when you come home. And
you know, those kind ofthings, I think, resonate with us.
You can see it is. I havewatched videos where you see a cow
(26:38):
literally crying when theyknow they're going to go through
the slaughter thing. And, youknow, you see the desperation of
pigs that are crammed into theback of a truck, that you can see
that their fear. And you cansee they're scared. You can see that
they have emotions like we ashuman beings have emotions. And I
think that, yes, I understandthat the food industry from that
(27:03):
perspective is never going tocease because obviously we are carnivores,
we are herbivores, and we area combination of both. But in regard
to the, again, the, theethical and the moral aspect of how
we, we work within thatcommunity, that industry, I, I do
think needs to change to apoint because, you know, it is, it
(27:26):
is a. And, and, and, andobviously we could go down a real
big rabbit hole with this.But, you know, it, you know, I think
that part of it is acorporate, the corporate concept
of how much can I get through,how much can I do? You know, I don't
treat these animals as ananimal. I treat them as properties.
What you just said, right? Iknow there's a lot of misconceptions
(27:50):
about being vegan. I'vetalked, I've spoken to a few of them
throughout my podcast,especially in the early portion.
What are some of the biggestmisconceptions about veganism and
how we, you know, some ofthese people think, well, how can
I get, how can I build muscle?How can I, how can I live on this?
How, where's my protein? Youknow, I get those questions all the
(28:13):
time, you know, what do youeat? You know, and I said, I eat
the same thing you do. I justdo it in a different way. I do, you
know, approach it from this.So can you help us understand some
of the biggest misconceptionsabout vegan? Veganism?
Yeah. So I think, you know,one of the biggest misconceptions
that I run into in theclassroom is just that, you know,
(28:34):
going vegan is primarily apath of deprivation. Right. That
going vegan is about beingagainst things that are terrible
and sort of reorienting yourlife to try to perfectionistically
never do these terrible thingsagain. And one of the most important
(28:57):
features I think, of HungryBeautiful Animals is the attempt
to kind of flip the scriptthere and say, no, you know, what
going vegan is about is theopportunity for deeper, richer flourishing.
Right. The reason that vegansare against suffering is because
we're for creaturelyflourishing. And so that, I think,
(29:21):
is one of the keymisconceptions that going vegan is
about scarcity, it's aboutopposing suffering, it's about stringent
abstention from doing thingsor supporting things that are bad.
I think actually at itsessence, going vegan is about opportunity,
(29:43):
it's about abundance. It'sabout right, doing things that will
make the world a more truthfuland beautiful and good place for
all creatures to be. Anothermisconception, right? Although it's,
it's getting easier to, toavoid this illusion these days because
(30:04):
nutrition science has made anawful lot of progress. But the protein
myth, right, where, where dopeople get our protein? And I think
now we have resources, right?Like Michael Greger's nutrition facts.org
where anyone who has anyskeptical questions about whether
a plant based diet can, youknow, be one of, of joy and good
(30:27):
health, spend even 15 minuteson nutrition facts.org and you'll
see the science, and nutritionscience specifically is very much
confirmed. Not just that onecan do well on a plant based diet,
but there's all sorts ofhealth benefits and even the possibility
for deep healing of some ofthe diseases of affluence that have
(30:50):
become coin of the realm,right, in, in a place where we eat
upwards of 220 pounds, right,of meat per person per year, 25 times
the amount that an averageBangladeshi will eat. So that's the
second myth, I think, anothermyth that I mean, and I don't, I
(31:12):
want to be careful herebecause this is one of those things
that really differs fromperson to person. It can be difficult
to find a well balanced, wholefoods, plant based diet depending
on where you live. And so Idon't want to discriminate against
people who have less, lessaccess or, or less food autonomy
(31:33):
or less food sovereignty, youknow, the ability to decide what
their food shed is going to beand, and, and eat from it in the
ways that they'd like to. ButI think on balance it is much easier
now to eat foods that lookvery much like what you're used to
(31:55):
that just come from differentsources, right? So now we have burgers
that are virtuallyindistinguishable from, from beef
burgers. We have sausages andegg substitutes and all these things
right now they're a little bitmore expensive. But nobody has to
forego forever, right, themouth feel the experience, the, the
(32:18):
nostalgia, right, of, of thesefoods they really love. So I don't
want to say it's a myth thatgoing vegan is, is difficult because
for some people, I, I want tohonor the fact for some people it's
harder than others. For somepeople, easier than others. Privilege
and affluence, of course havea lot to do with those things. But
(32:39):
generally Speaking most peoplethese days, even in some places where
you'd be surprised, can go inand find really delicious plant based
options at the grocery store,in restaurants. And so yeah, those
are three things that I thinkpeople are commonly concerned about
(33:00):
that once you get into it alittle ways, it turns out, oh no,
you know, it's, it's not aboutabstention and scarcity at all. It's
about abundance. It's actuallyquite easy to meet those nutritional
needs and it's easy to eatdelicious food that's accessible
in your average hotel and youraverage restaurant. Even in increasingly
(33:24):
in college cafeterias nowthere are entire cafeterias. The
University of North Texas hasa cafeteria that is 100% plant based.
So the world is changing and Ithink that's making greener eating
easier than ever.
That's a really good thing. Imean I obviously I loved it when
(33:45):
like beyond meat came out in,in the, in the beginning and they
worked on that and you wouldfeel you're eating a burger. I mean
when I say feel becauseobviously we know as individuals
that really appreciate food.You know, it's a combination of not
just taste, it's acombination, it's a visual, it's
a smelling, it's a taste, it'sa feel. It all applies together.
(34:09):
When you will pick up a pieceof food to want to eat it or when
you get a plate put in frontof you, you know, it's always, you
touch all of those senses inregard to that and your body then
adapts. That goes, hey, thisis, you know, this is what this is
and I'm looking forward tothis. So yeah, it gives us the opportunity
to kind of enjoy that again.You know, if you have switched to
(34:31):
being a vegan, I know there'ssome people, I have friends of mine
that have their kids grew upvegan and so they know nothing different,
you know, kind of a thing. Youcan't see my hands going all over
the place. They know nothingdifferent. So, so I think that what
you had mentioned is that thefood systems are transforming in
(34:56):
regards to that. That'samazing that they've got some university
campuses that have got veganoptions, number one and full vegan
dining halls. That's somethingI think that I think is a very positive
step in the right direction.How can the food systems, transformations
like that contribute to a morelike compassionate, sustainable world?
(35:19):
We want to talk aboutsustainability. Becoming a vegan
contributes to humanity, theplanet Earth, our environment, sustaining
itself. I just had aconversation that's going to go up
effectively and went up todaywhere we talked about bees and the
contribution to bees andbelieve it or not, locusts and how
(35:44):
those contributions to thissociety help sustain the earth environment,
which then helps humanssustain and animals sustain and the
environment to sustain and theecological system work the way it's
supposed to work. So that's along question, isn't it? Okay, that's
(36:05):
a good one. Food systemtransformations can contribute to
more compassionate andsustainable world.
Yeah, I, I mean, I, I love along question because it shows just
how complex, right, thissituation really is. And, and to
ask this questionappropriately, you really do need
to give a nod to all thosedifferent levels, right, that food
(36:27):
systems touch. I mean, one ofthe things I love about being a part
of food systems conversationsis everyone, you know, is party to
the discussion. And once youstart to study food systems, you
realize from the soil to thestratosphere, everything, right,
from the microorganisms inthe, in the soil that we use to grow,
(36:49):
the grain that we use to feedthe animals that we use to turn in.
I mean, you, there's not a, Abetter example that I can think of
of how everything from top tobottom is linked, is one, right?
The flourishing or languishingcomes packaged as a whole. And, you
know, when I'm teaching onthese things, the way that I like
(37:12):
to try to help people see thewhole business is just to take the
example of what it makes tobring, say, a steak or a piece of
chicken or eggs right to yourplate. And I think a lot of times
we focus only on the sufferingof the animal. And I think it makes
a lot of sense to, to placethe emphasis there because from the
(37:35):
moral point of view, that isa, a dire, urgently important question.
But when we only focus onthat, we miss all the other layers
here. And what's going on,right, Is that if you want to eat
collectively, you know, 220pounds of meat per person per year,
(37:57):
well, that meat doesn't justdescend from Platonic heaven, right?
You've got to grow all thatmeat. And because growing meat means
growing physical organisms,right, individual creatures, well,
you've got to feed them,you've got to get them water, you've
got to provide them housing.When you feed living organisms food
(38:21):
and water, what happens? Theyproduce waste. When you have 80 billion
land animals that you'reslaughtering a year, that you're
giving all this food, thatyou're giving all this water, that
you're stressing the topsoilto grow, all that grain that you're
confining that, right, theirflatulence and their urine and their
(38:41):
feces have to be storedsomewhere right here. You can see
it's not just about animals.It's about grain, it's about water,
it's about oil that we use tomake the pesticides and the herbicides
and the fertilizers that weneed to support all this massive
grain growth. It's about allthe externalities that pulling all
(39:07):
those things out of the earth,putting them into the metabolisms
of living creatures and thenhaving those excreted out back into
the planet's water systemsand, and waste systems. You know,
this is our current foodsystem, a massive generator of harms.
(39:29):
And then when you think about,well, how does this animal go from,
you know, being a livingorganism to being a steak or a pork
chop? Well then you've got tohave a human workforce that has to
systematically, hundreds oftimes in a day, deny the cries for
mercy of fellow livingcreatures as they move along an assembly
(39:53):
line. And then people wonderwhy, right, the mental illness rates
are higher, why the physicaldebilitation rates are higher and
spousal abuse and crime ratesand etc around these operations.
Because the emotional traumaof working in these operations, the
(40:16):
physical danger of working inthese operations are deeply problematic
from the moral point of view,from the standpoint of human worker
justice, right? Completelyaside from the moral harms that are
inflicted on, on fellowsentient creatures. So just by looking
(40:37):
at what's on your plate andtracing that back to all, all the
things that have to be done inorder for the pork chop to be there
in front of you, you know,it's a reminder of how from the soil
to the stratosphere, our dailychoices create externalities, create
massive moral and practicalharms. And you know, if we want 10
(41:02):
billion human beings by 2050,if we want to have an Earth that
can sustain life on the planetby 2100, if we want to create a labor
force where people don't haveto wear diapers because the assembly
line is moving so fast and isso relentless that they don't have
(41:23):
time for bathroom breaks,right? We have got to change our
preference patterns and theway that we're spending our money.
But those aren't things thatare easy to see when you're just
looking at a sumptuouslooking, delicious smelling, right,
hockey puck sized piece offlesh on the plate. Those are the
(41:44):
farthest things from ourminds. And obviously in that moment
we don't want to think aboutthe harms that are radiating from,
from that experience ofdeliciousness. Short sighted as it
is.
You know, it is interestingwhen you. I watch a lot of National
(42:05):
Geographic, I watch a lot ofjackana. It's unfortunate he's got
the disease, he has tickingall that away. But in learning all
of this, you watch where theanimal kingdom understands the balance
that they need between whatthey eat and whether or not they're
(42:26):
killing for the, you know,nothing more than survival. You can
see where if a pack of lions,I guess you call them a pack of lions,
could be a herd of lions. Packof lions, herd of lions.
The pride. I believe it is a pride.
There we go, pride of lions.You can watch where, you know, if
(42:47):
they've already eaten for theday, they can sit right next to a
whole herd of antelope orwhole herd of something else in regard.
And they don't bother eachother because they understand the
balance that we need in orderfor survival of everyone. Because
(43:09):
if they go through and eateverything in sight, they know that
there won't be any food nextweek with an understanding. So from
a again long question, so fromthat perspective, how do you see
our responsibility as acommunity or society to cooperate,
(43:30):
Achieving the goals of animalethics and, and maybe the, the food
justice, I guess would be agood word.
Yeah. So what I'm trying to doin my book Hungry Beautiful Animals
is really convince people thatthis is not a path of scarcity, suffering,
(43:51):
obligation so much as it is anopportunity to be the change we want
to see in our world from thesoil to the stratosphere, right.
That by, by eating moreplants, by eating less meat, eventually,
I hope by transitioning fullyto a plant based diet and entering
(44:12):
right. The space of abundancethat comes with that transition,
expanding our consciousness ofthe flourishing of other sentient
creatures. That happens rightwhen, when we're no longer eating
animals, it becomes mucheasier to consider who they actually
are. Right. I mean, it's hardto have a conversation about how
(44:33):
intelligent pigs are whenyou're halfway through a pork chop.
But nobody wants to experiencethat, that cognitive distance. But
once you've sort of moved in aplant based direction, suddenly where
you know, you were defensivein the middle of eating a pork chop,
you can get curious, right?There's this transition that happens
(44:54):
from defensiveness around theabilities and intelligence and, and
sociality and, and emotionalnature of, of fellow sentient creatures
to a curiosity about how thatworks. And so I think this evolving
journey of going vegan, westart with baby steps. We start with,
(45:18):
you know, exploring newexciting plant based options that
expand the range of the Thingsthat we're eating, we move steadily
away from that standardAmerican diet that we know is generating
diseases of affluence, makingit harder to live vibrant lives.
We start to experience thosephysical health benefits. We start
(45:40):
to get more curious about allthe other benefits that are happening.
And over the course of, youknow, a couple years of experiments
in this regard, we startseeing how we, ourselves, with our
unique talents and gifts, canbecome leavening agents in this transformation
(46:02):
of social consciousness thatwe need. And what I mean by that,
Michael, is that, you know,Hungry Beautiful Animals is not about
a one size fits all approachto going vegan. It's about encouraging
people to see that their ownevolution in the direction of all
these improvements andbenefits can inspire them to be leavening
(46:25):
agents in the world in waysthat only they can be. So if you're,
if you're like Michael andsuddenly you are, you know, have
a media company and you'remaking podcasts, well, you can invite
vegans on to talk about that.You know, if you're working in a
law firm and you're somebodywho, you know, wants to make the
(46:48):
service project for all ofyour 200 employees that particular
year to be focused on animalwelfare, well, then you can do that.
If you're a professor or akindergarten teacher or somebody
who's a motivational speaker,you can integrate these issues into
the content that you'redelivering to help other people aspire
(47:11):
to do better. If you're acustodian at a high school, you can
see this as an opportunity tomaybe address the food waste issues
and start a recycling programor a composting program, right? I
mean, every single person onthe planet eats, and every single
person on the planet isengaged in this system. And that
(47:35):
means every single person onthe planet can be inspired by taking
account of what their giftsand abilities and passions are, and
then channel those into thisset of practices, going vegan, that
over time can catalyze achange that could transform the world
(47:57):
on a grand scale. So this isreally about encouraging people to
find their own personaljourneys of transformation that then
enable them and empower themto go out into the world and share
that right with the people intheir. In their own areas of influence.
(48:20):
And none of us has to bearthe. The weight of the world on our
shoulders, right? I mean, inthe account that I'm trying to offer,
all you got to do is worryabout how your diet, your unique
talents and gifts, yourvocational life, your friendships,
your social life, that tinylittle area of influence that you,
(48:41):
a human being, with feet madeof clay, someone who's error prone,
someone who's definitely goingto make some mistakes. You're not
going to transform the world,but you can transform that tiny little
patch of earth that you callhome. And if we all work at our own
little patch, well, prettysoon we're going to have a quilt.
(49:01):
And if that quilt gets bigenough because of the impact of the
way these things work, theworld could be a totally different
place in 50 to 100 years. Andthat, that's the hope, right? Maybe
it'll take us longer, maybe200, but we, we need to do this soon
because the impact of the waywe're currently doing it is not sustainable
(49:27):
for much longer. And so nobetter time than the present.
I agree, I agree. And I thinkanybody that's a vegan right now,
if you want to be an activistin regard to this, it's you. There
are some steps there and someconcepts in your book that will allow
people to move forward withhelping this whole thing. On the
same note, there areindividuals that listen to this that
(49:49):
may be on the cusp of, or onthe fence, the old cliche of whether
or not they really want to gointo this lifestyle or whether or
not they're going tounderstand that eating this way is
a better benefit tothemselves. Practicing a vegan lifestyle
is a benefit not only to us,but to our environment. What advice
(50:10):
could you give someone who isconsidering. Excuse me. As I clear
my throat. Let me try thatquestion again. If I remember it.
What advice would you givesomeone who's considering transitioning
to a vegan lifestyle but feelsoverwhelmed by the idea how can we
help them to transition into.I told you how I did it. It was real
(50:32):
simple because the way I didit. But there are people that have
lived a, shall we callregular, I guess, regular lifestyle,
you know, as a carnivore, youknow, and occasionally putting a
little bit of vegetables ontheir plate, you know, like I'm eating
vegetables. Look into this lifestyle.
(50:55):
I. One of the things that'sreally important to me is to remind
people again and again, it'snot a one size fits all. Everybody's
journey is going to bedifferent. And for that reason, I
tack hard away from the ideathat veganism a, a, a rigid set of
rules that, or, or anidentity, right, that you earn or
(51:18):
lose by what you eat on agiven day or what you wear on a given
day. I think identitarianconceptions of veganism are very
fragile because the minute youmake a mistake or if you haven't
decided if you want to adoptthe whole worldview yet, right? Well,
then you're, you're out everytime you make a mistake. Or maybe
(51:41):
you never start because you'reworried that only the perfect can
apply, right? For this vision,what I try to do instead, I want
to kick veganism, right? Rigidrule based ways of thinking about
this to one side and invitepeople instead to think of going
(52:02):
vegan. And what I mean bygoing vegan is, look, this is an
aspiration. It's not somethingwe do at one go. No human being can
actually be perfect at itbecause of the ways in which we're
intermeshed with everythingelse, right? Even if we never eat
another animal product again,you know, we're driving cars that
(52:24):
harm insects or we're eatingvegetables that have been raised
using pesticides or combinesthat affect field animals or. Right?
I mean, there is no way for afinite, error prone human being to
achieve a full fledged veganidentity. Totally cruelty free, completely
(52:46):
insulated, right from thevicissitudes of being a finite, error
prone creature. That's notsomething that's possible for human
beings. So I would discouragepeople from thinking of going vegan
as a stringent rule followingism and think of it instead as a
trajectory where they see thisvision. Wow, look how much more beautiful
(53:10):
the world could be if animalshad a fair shot at living flourishing
lives. If the earth wasn'tsuffering under the strain, right?
Of all of these difficultpractices for the environment and
wasting water and wastinggrain and wasting agricultural land,
(53:32):
what if our personal healthwere more resilient in our public
health, we had to worry lessabout pandemics and we had to worry
less about global hunter. Whatif that beautiful world that a transformed
food system could deliver tous? What if I just started to adopt
daily practices that moved meincrementally in that direction?
(53:57):
So I think diet is one of themore powerful ways to do that. Certainly
it's one of the moreefficacious ways to start moving
in that direction. But as Itell my students all the time, you
know, some people maybe don'thave the freedom to do this dietarily
at first. So maybe they do itby reading a bunch of books or watching
(54:17):
some documentary films orfocusing on expanding animal consciousness
or learning more about workerjustice, right? On my view, you're
going vegan so long as you'refinding practices that are moving
you in the general directionof that beautiful vision of a transformed
(54:37):
world. So, you know, how mightthis affect someone on the fence?
Well, I would say Lean intoyour curiosity. If you're thinking
to yourself, man, this looksreally interesting, but I'm worried
that I won't be perfect. Orthis looks really interesting, but
I don't want to become one ofthose bunny huggin lunatics who judges
everybody. Or this looksreally interesting, but I don't want
(54:59):
to fall into this set ofstereotypes. I say more power to
you. Follow your curiosity. Dothe things that look like they'll
be blessings to you andblessings to the people in your immediate
spheres of influence. And whatI've seen happen to many, many, many
people over the years, as youknow, somebody who's been doing vegan
(55:21):
education now for two decades,those baby steps help people to gain
confidence. Those baby stepsturn into bigger and bigger victories
and more and more highlyevolved moral and environmental consciousness.
And before you know it, thosepeople who wondered, well, you know,
(55:43):
how can I eat differently atall? Are now trying to figure out
how can my career as anattorney or how can my career as
an environmental justiceadvocate, or how can my career as
a business person, or how canmy career as an entrepreneur or a
custodian or a kindergartenteacher help the world woo the world
(56:05):
right into seeing what thistransformation has to offer them.
So my advice is lean into thecuriosity. Tack away from those defensive
feelings. You're not going tobe able to do this all at once. String
together a few tiny littlevictories spurred on by your curiosity.
(56:28):
And I predict then as yourconfidence grows, your curiosity
expands, your consciousnessbecomes, right, more engaged, your
path widens. It's shocking howtransformational this path can be
(56:49):
if you have the courage tolean into your curiosity instead
of letting that, those fewremaining defensive, skeptical worries,
right. Keep you from takingthat first step. So lean into curiosity.
Be wary of those defensivefeelings that arise when we're kind
(57:10):
of in fear of perfectionism orin fear that we have to be the perfect
vegan. I say banish thosethoughts, kick perfectionism and
shame and blame to the curband say, how can I follow curiosity
into something beautiful here?And let's not think about the destination,
let's, let's think about thenext tiny little step and see where
(57:33):
we end up.
Sounds like a wonderfulphilosophy that we should all incorporate
into our life.
Well, I hope so. I, I, I'vetried very, very hard to make this
a book for everyone, right? Tome, you, you don't have to be somebody
with the word vegan tattooedacross your neck, right? Or somebody
(57:55):
who is, you know, on fire forenvironmental justice. I mean, I
think this is something thatevery Person who wants to move a,
a fragile body full ofthoughts and feelings and a desire
for joy. This is a paththat's, that's open to everyone.
And you know, as I tell myactivist friends all the time, something
(58:19):
I need to remind myself fromtime to time, what we want from our
advocacy is for this to becomecommon sense.
Yeah.
I mean, hopefully one day wewon't even need the V word because
it wouldn't occur to anyonethat we need to do all these things
and cause all these harms toeat a delicious, sustainable, earth
(58:40):
friendly, health friendlydiet. I mean, my dream is that one
day it'll seem as strange tous, you know, that once upon a time
we, we ate animals and inorder to do that we caused. Right.
All these, these, we'vewreaked all these terrible things
to happen across the planetand into the lives of our fellow
(59:03):
human beings. I mean that'llseem as, as strange to us as it now
seems that we were willing toenslave human beings or that we were
willing right to. I meanthere's so many things that would
have seemed shocking, right.200 years ago that are now common
(59:24):
sense for everyone. Doesn'tmatter what their political identity
is, doesn't matter right.Where they're coming from or what
their experience base is. Myhope is a revolution in food is that
next step. Right. That goesbeyond identity politics, that goes
beyond. Right. Ourexperiential differences and something
(59:45):
that just everyone will oneday take for granted. That's the
hope. Anyway.
I think we should all hope forthat. I think it's a wonderful, again,
an amazing opportunity, abrilliant opportunity for us to be
able to take an activeapproach to all of this. And I like
to tell when people questionme in regard to whether or not we
get enough protein or whetheror not what I'm eating, I say the
(01:00:08):
largest land animal in theworld is a vegan and a gorilla. The
elephant and a gorilla is amassive as a gorilla and the strength
that gorilla has is a vegan.So you know, don't be afraid of that.
I had to throw that in there,so just toss it. Absolutely. Tell
(01:00:32):
people how they can give somehelp, how, how they can get involved
and how to get your book. Andyou have so many opportunities on
there like Tom's story andJoanna's story and we can even buy
lunch for a donkey.
HungryBeautifulAnimals.com isthe website. The title was weird
(01:00:52):
enough, Michael, that the dotcom address was still available so
we, we took advantage of that.But lots of resources there. So on
the resources page, you canfind a whole bunch of ways to start
your journey into going veganthat don't necessarily require right
an an overnight flip of theswitch, ways to build your consciousness,
(01:01:15):
ways to help individualanimals, ways to make connections
between justice for humanbeings and justice for members of
other species. Lots and lotsof things there on the resource page.
Of course, you can buy thebook anywhere books are sold. There
are links there on thewebsite. And I want to call readers
attention in particular yet tothe stories page. And that's where
(01:01:38):
people who have read anddigested the message of hungry, beautiful
animals talk a little bit intheir own voice about how this opportunity
is unfolding in their ownlives. And I encourage, you know,
readers who want to sharestories to reach out through the
website because we're alwayslooking for new stories to feature
(01:02:01):
and maybe your story is theone that will inspire an untold number
of folks to, to follow in yourfootsteps and to find that one more
thing before they go. I thinkthis is a beautiful path to travel.
And hungrybeautifulanimals.comit could be your first step.
(01:02:21):
There you go. And I'll makesure that there's a link in the show
notes so that everybody has aneasy way to find it. You won't even
have to look for. Just clickit and it'll wonder. Well, thank
you very much for being on theshow. I really appreciate it. This
is one more thing before wego. So I always ask, is there any
words of wisdom before we go?
I think look for joy in aworld brimming with suffering. It's
(01:02:48):
so easy to focus on theoverwhelming amounts of suffering
in the world, the overwhelmingamounts of oppression in the world.
But until we find our joy andmaximize that joy among the members
of our inner families, ourefficacy, our power, our motivation
to go out into the world andmake it a joyful place is going to
(01:03:13):
have a harder time finding us.And so my advice, one more thing
before you go, find joy andnourish your inner family. Because
if you treat all those partsof yourself well, the physical you,
the emotional you, the socialyou, the intellectual you, the moral
you, the power that you willhave for taking it to the street
(01:03:37):
and helping others to findtheir joy will be so, so much richer
and your enthusiasm will bemore contagious. So go for the joy.
It's a joyful case for going vegan.
Brilliant words of wisdom.Thank you very much for sharing those.
I appreciate them very much.Again, Matt, thank you very much
(01:03:58):
for coming on the show. Thankyou very much for spreading your
wisdom, your wealth ofknowledge, your expertise and your
passion for taking thisforward. I appreciate you.
Well, speaking of joy, it hasbeen a rich one. Thank you, Michael.
Grateful as well. For everyonein the One More Thing before you
go community, thank you verymuch for being part of this community.
(01:04:20):
Everything we just spokeabout, you'll be able to connect
with Matt and let me startthis over just a second. For everyone
else in the One More Thingbefore we Go community, again, thank
you very much for being partof this community. I will have everything
in connecting Matthew inhelping you on your vegan journey
(01:04:44):
or helping you to become avegan activist, how to get his book
and some resources and buy alunch for a donkey. You have to.
And one more thing before youall go. Have a great day. Have a
great week and thank you forbeing here. Thanks for listening
to this episode of One MoreThing before youe Go. Check out our
website at before you Go podcast.
(01:05:05):
Com.
You can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
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