March 12, 2025 • 45 mins
Ken Kunkin’s extraordinary narrative embodies the essence of resilience and tenacity in the face of seemingly insurmountable challenges. After suffering a life-altering spinal cord injury in 1970 during a football game for Cornell University, Ken not only defied the odds by completing his engineering degree but also pursued multiple advanced degrees in education and psychology. His remarkable journey led him to a distinguished career as a rehabilitation counselor and a prosecutor, where he served the Nassau County District Attorney’s Office for over 40 years. In our conversation today, we will delve into the motivations that propelled Ken forward, the obstacles he encountered along the way, and the profound impact of his experiences on his life and those around him. Join us as we explore the inspiring legacy of Ken Kunkin, whose memoir, "I Dream of Things That Never Were: The Ken Kunkin Story," chronicles his triumph over adversity and serves as a beacon of hope for many.
Ken Kunkin's life story is a profound testament to resilience, determination, and the relentless pursuit of one's dreams in the face of seemingly insurmountable challenges. In 1970, a catastrophic football injury left him nearly paralyzed, yet Ken's response to this life-altering event was nothing short of extraordinary. He returned to Cornell University to complete his engineering degree and went on to earn advanced degrees in education and psychology. His journey did not stop there; Ken dedicated his career to helping others as a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor and a long-serving assistant district attorney in Nassau County, ultimately rising to the position of Deputy Bureau Chief. His memoir, "I Dream of Things That Never Were: The Ken Kunkin Story," chronicles his incredible journey, detailing the challenges he faced and the triumphs he achieved.
In this enlightening episode, we explore Ken's motivations and the pivotal moments that shaped his remarkable life. His experiences serve as a powerful reminder of the importance of community support and the role it plays in overcoming adversity. Listeners will hear about Ken's struggles, not only with his physical limitations but also with societal perceptions of disability. He candidly discusses the importance of family, friends, and mentors who provided unwavering support throughout his journey. Ken's narrative is one of hope, illustrating that the expectations we set for ourselves and others can profoundly influence our paths.
As we delve deeper into Ken's story, the conversation shifts to the broader implications of his experiences, emphasizing the need for empathy and understanding within the medical community and society at large. Ken's life is a clarion call for inclusivity, urging listeners to reconsider their perceptions of disability and capability. His insights encourage active participation in the pursuit of one's goals and in advocating for others. This episode is a celebration of the human spirit's capacity to overcome adversity and an exploration of how resilience can inspire change. Join us for this compelling discussion that not only highlights Ken Kunkin's achievements but also serves as an inspiration for all individuals facing their own challenges.
Takeaways:
- Ken Kunkin's remarkable journey of resilience began with a devastating injury during college football in 1970, yet he persevered to complete his education.
- Despite facing extreme physical challenges, Ken Kunkin achieved multiple degrees, including a Master's in Education and a Master's in Psychology, demonstrating his unwavering commitment to personal growth.
- Throughout his career, Ken has utilized his experiences to empower others with disabilities, serving as a nationally certified rehabilitation counselor and advocating for the rights of disabled individuals.
- Ken's transition from rehabilitation counselor to Deputy Bureau Chief in the...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Have you ever faced achallenge that seemed insurmountable?
What would motivate you tokeep pushing forward when things
get tough? We're going toanswer these questions and more when
we have a conversation with aninspiring guest whose story is one
of resilience, determination,and triumph over adversity. I'm your
host, Michael Hurst. Welcometo one more thing before you go.
(00:29):
My guest today, Ken Kunkin'sjourney began in 1970 when he broke
his neck playing football forCornell University. It left him almost
totally paralyzed from hisshoulders down. Despite this life
altering injury, Ken returnedto Cornell to complete his undergraduate
degree in engineering. Hedidn't stop there. He went on to
earn a Master of Arts degreein Education from Cornell and a Master's
(00:51):
of education in Psychologyfrom Columbia University. He became
a nationally certifiedrehabilitation counselor and worked
at Abilities Incorporated,voc, vocational and placement counseling
to severely disabledindividuals. But he didn't stop there
as well. Ken enrolled inHofstra University School of Law
and he worked for over 40years as a Nassau County Assistant
(01:13):
District Attorney, eventuallybecoming a Deputy Bureau chief. His
memoir, I Dream of Things thatNever Were the Ken Kanken Story,
was published in 2023. Itchronicles his incredible journey.
Today we'll explore Ken'sstory, exploring his motivations,
his challenges and, and histriumphs. And I am honored to have
(01:35):
you on the show, Ken.
Thank you, Michael. And thankyou for having me as your guest.
You know, it is again, anamazing journey that you have been
on because a lot of peoplewould have given up even before it
got started. But I, Iappreciate where you've come from
and the opportunities for youto give back, especially to the community
(01:55):
that needs it and in your lawcareer. We talked about that a little
bit ago. Working with thedistrict attorney's office, we have
just a little bit something incommon. They're a brotherhood.
Right.
I like to start things at thebeginning. So where'd you grow up?
I grew up in Long island inNassau County, Long Island. And I
(02:19):
might add, Michael, that I'vehad help every step of my way both
before and after my injury.Just so you know a little bit about
my early life. My mother diedwhen I was less than one month old.
It was in 1950 during thepolio epidemic. She unfortunately
caught the disease and passedaway before I was one month old.
(02:42):
So after that we moved in withmy grandparents for a few years before
my father remarried. So we'vehad help every step of the way from
a very close knit family thatI've been fortunate to have.
You Know, it's interestingbecause we had this a little bit
of a conversation before westarted and, you know, I understand
(03:05):
that journey. Sometimes it isdifficult for those of you out there
that are into it now or justbeginning your journey, it's always
important to understand that,you know, you have those around you
that will help you andthey'll, you know, stand beside you
when you need it. They'll holdyour hand when you need it. They'll
push you forward when you needit. They'll pull you forward when
you need it. You justsometimes have to. Have to be just
(03:27):
to look around, just to ask.And I'm happy that you had those
individuals around you tobring you forward.
I was very fortunate.
I know you went to CornellUniversity. You said in. When I got
your background and I did alittle research on you, you went
football. Excuse me? Youplayed football for Cornell University.
(03:48):
Is that what brought youthere? Did you get a scholarship?
No, actually. Well, Cornelldoesn't give out athletic scholarships.
I went there because I wasalways very good in math. That was
my best subject. And my highschool guidance counselor said, if
you're good in math, youshould be an engineer. So with that
advice, my brother encouragedme to apply to Cornell University.
(04:12):
He's two years older than Iam. He desperately wanted to go to
Cornell and was not accepted.So he ended up going to the University
of Vermont, where my fatherand mother both went. And at my brother's
suggestion, I applied toCornell, was admitted and decided
to go there. And I just mightadd, I was on Cornell's lightweight
(04:34):
football team. They also had asecond team that was in a special
league at the time. It wasalso called 150 pound football, and
they were for some of thesmaller players. And I was on that
team. It's now called sprint football.
Well, that. That's the firsttime I've heard that. Actually. I
played football in highschool, but I guess it would be similar
(04:56):
to when I went to high school.They had an A squad and a B squad,
but they had the A squad wasthey played all the time. Then the
B squad, we filled in, or ifsomebody got injured, then we popped
in there, something like that.But it's great for the opportunity
for, for others to get in aswell. So when you were playing football,
(05:17):
how far into your universitycareer did you get injured?
This was during my junioryear. I was 20 years old. It happened
in the fourth game of theseason on a play that I normally
wouldn't have even been in on.It happened on a kickoff and during
the first play of the game.One of our players got a concussion
(05:37):
on the kickoff and obviouslycouldn't continue playing. So I was
put in on that play to takehis place. And we had just scored
a touchdown. We were leading16 to nothing at the time. It was
still in the first quarter.And on the kickoff, I ran down the
field, tackled the ballcarrier, and when I did, I broke
(06:00):
my neck and severely damagedmy spinal cord, and I was instantly
paralyzed.
Can you. I mean, it's got tobe kind of devastating at that time.
Can you. Are you okay if wetalk about that journey?
Oh, absolutely.
Can you tell us the moment yourealized you were paralyzed? I mean,
how did that make you feel?
Well, it happened instantly.As soon as I hit the ball carry,
(06:22):
I felt like an electric shockshooting through my body. And suddenly
I lost not only all movement,but. But I lost all sensation below
my shoulders. So I couldn'tfeel anything below my shoulders.
I didn't know what the problemwas. I thought maybe I had pinched
a nerve and in a few secondsI'd be back up on my feet. I had
(06:44):
never even heard of a spinalcord injury before my injury before
that.
I mean, it's got to be,obviously, once you realize what
was happening, I'm sure thatit's got to be devastating to even
think about what, what, what'snext. I mean, I. I can understand
to a certain extent, I canunderstand because what happened
to me, you know, I got. As Iwe said earlier, and my audience
(07:07):
knows, you know, when I gotinjured myself and, you know, I'm
laying down my back there andthen there were like a bazillion
things running through my mindat that time. And, you know, one
of them was obviously myfamily, you know, my kids. And, you
know, what am I going to do?What they going to do, what's going
to happen kind of a thing, youknow, what, what were your next steps?
(07:30):
What took. What happened?
Well, what happened is, youknow, obviously they called for an
ambulance, they put me on astretcher, and when they were carrying
me off the field, it felt asif they were just carrying my head
off the field and leaving mybody behind because I had no feeling
below my shoulders at thatpoint. Point felt like I had just
(07:51):
been decapitated. But I endedup obviously going to the hospital
where my uniform was cut off.X rays were taken, and they saw that
my injury was so serious thatparticular hospital was not able
to handle my situation. So Iwas put back in an ambulance and
(08:12):
sent to a second hospital. Iended up spending the next nine months
and 20 days in varioushospitals and rehabilitation centers.
That in itself is a journey,having to get through all of that.
And you know, I'm sure thatwhat you were facing at that time
was what am I going to do withthe rest of my life?
(08:33):
Right. And you know, what wasparticularly depressing and demoralizing
is the medical personnel justseemed hesitant to answer any of
my questions. And I later gota hold of a pamphlet that the rehab
center provided. And withsomebody turning the pages for me,
I learned that somebody with acondition such as mine, I'm hurt
(08:58):
between the fourth and fifthcervical in the neck. The medical
personnel seemed to think thebest that I would ever be able to
do would perhaps be somedayable to sell magazine subscriptions
over the telephone. I wasdevastated when I saw that. I mean,
here I had been in my junioryear studying engineering at one
(09:20):
of the most prestigiousengineering schools in the country,
and now I was looking at acareer, if I was lucky, it seemed
like, to sell magazinesubscriptions over the telephone.
Yeah, that's. I think that,you know, during that time period
it, it's, I mean, obviouslythings have evolved a little bit
since then. They've got moretechnology, more opportunity for
(09:40):
us, those of us that are, thatget injured, to be able to have a
better understanding. And thetransparency, I think is a.
Little more available that atthat time there weren't even touch
tone phones, they were rotaryphones, which I couldn't dial. And
this was certainly well beforethey were laptop computers. So I
(10:01):
didn't think I could even dothat job of selling magazine subscriptions
over the telephone.
Yeah, because you couldn't,you couldn't dial and yeah, that,
I mean, obviously that initself I think would. It's challenging
both mentally, not justphysically, but it's also challenged
mentally because again, whatare we going to do? What am I supposed
to do? How am I going to dothis? How's my life going to go forward
(10:25):
at that time, may I ask, whendid, when did you meet your wife?
I met my wife almost 50 years,about 50 years after my injury. It
was just under. And I had putan ad in the newspaper looking for
a personal care attendant tohelp me on weekends. And I was fortunate
(10:47):
that my wife responded to thead. And I fortunately made the decision
of hiring my wife to help meon weekends. Actually, it wasn't
50 years after I was hurt, itwas 30 years after I was hurt. So
I met my wife. I got her in1970, I met her in 1999. So I was
(11:12):
current almost 30 years.
At that time, even before thatpart. Wow. Yeah. But look where you're
at now. A wonderfulopportunity for you and your wife.
That's pretty cool. You have kids.
Yeah. Well, that's aninteresting story as well. When I
met my wife, she indicatedthat when our relationship turned
(11:35):
into a romantic relationship,we decided that we'd get married.
And she told me she'd like tohave my baby. Not just a baby, my
baby. She said she wanted tosee a little kanken running around
our home. Now, this reallyseemed impossible at the time. I
had been paralyzed for morethan 30 years by then, and I was
(11:57):
already in my 50s. So weresearched various options, and we
learned that through in vitrofertilization, it may still be possible
for me to father a child. Sowe pursued in vitro fertilization,
and through the miracle ofscience, Anna became pregnant. And
(12:17):
just about 20 years ago, onJanuary 24, 2005, I was present in
the delivery room. I waspresent in the delivery room when
my wife, Ana, gave birth totriplets. We have three incredible
sons, Joseph, James, andTimothy. They're now all sophomores
(12:41):
at three separate colleges inupstate New York.
That's amazing, actually.Congratulations and well done. Brought
tears to my eyes. What anopportunity. So you were hoping for
one, and you got two more bonuses.
I thought it was a miraclethat we'd even have one. And suddenly
we end up with triplets. Icouldn't be happier. We've been so
(13:03):
blessed.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.That's pretty cool, actually. I think
that the opportunity presenteditself in such a unique way, and
you hit the jackpot, Ken.
We sure did.
Yes, you did.
Our boys are now 20 years old,doing great.
Well, what. What motivated youto return to Cornell and complete
your undergraduate degree? Imean, this. I'm probably backtracking
(13:26):
a little bit, but if you don'tmind, I. I was thinking about this
earlier because you went back.I went back to school, you know,
after I got all my stuff takencare of, and I realized that, you
know, my journey was going tocontinue. I went back to university
and got a bachelor's andfinished my bachelor's and then got
a master's degree. So what.What motivated you to return to Cornell
(13:49):
and complete yourundergraduate degree?
Well, I had a vocationalcounselor at the Rusk Institute where
I did my rehab, who encouragedme to recognize, obviously, that
due to my physicallimitations, I needed to make the
most of my mental abilities.So she encouraged me to go back to
school. And in my mind, myattitude was I wanted to pick up
(14:12):
my Life right where it was atthe time of my injury. I was trying
to do my best not to let myinjury interfere with anything that
I thought I would have donehad I not been injured. So that meant,
of course, going back to theschool I was attending, and that
was Cornell. What I didn'treally take fully into consideration
was how inaccessible Cornellwas at the time. I mean, I had the
(14:36):
added misfortune of beinginjured about 20 years before the
Americans with Disabilitiesact took effect. So there was not
one ramp or curb cut on theentire campus. And Cornell's on a
very hilly terrain. Virtuallyevery one of its buildings had steps.
(14:57):
On my first day of class, Ihad to be either pulled up or bounced
down close to 100 steps justto attend my first day.
Holy smokes. That's crazy. Butyou persevered, obviously, and things
got you an undergraduatedegree, right?
(15:18):
Well, I had a lot of help frommy personal care attendants and my
fellow classmates. And, ofcourse, my family have been so supportive
every step of the way, andthey basically assured me, if need
be, they'd act as my arms andlegs to make sure I could do everything
I wanted to do. And, boy, itgot to the point where I didn't want
to disappoint them. They wereso helpful and so encouraging that
(15:45):
I decided I really had to doeverything I could do to make something
of my life. Now, my family wasnot with me at Cornell at the time,
certainly not my first yearwhen I went back, but through a lot
of help. In 1973, I became thefirst quadriplegic to ever graduate
(16:06):
from Cornell.
That's amazing.Congratulations on that. What an
achievement. I mean,obviously, to manage both the physical
and the emotional challengesduring all of that. I'm sure we're
difficult. I mean, no way cancompare my journey to yours, but
(16:27):
I understand the challengesof. Of being in a wheelchair. There's
challenges of thoseaccessibility routes and having to
require help from otherindividuals in getting through daily
tasks and through everythingthat you have to do. So I admire
that very much. I think thatthe physical, the emotional opportunities
(16:52):
for you, that had to be a verysatisfying day when you graduated.
It sure was. And, you know, Imight add, during this time, I was
still just going to get usedto my new physical condition. I went
back TO CORNELL Just 11 daysafter I was discharged from the hospital.
So, you know, there was quitea lot of adjusting going on during
(17:15):
that time period. And, youknow, I was so worried just about
going up and down all thesteps to get to my classes. It was
Difficult to pay attention tomy lecturers once I arrived there.
Yeah, I can imagine thatdefinitely they weren't built for
individuals that have adisability in any form during that
(17:37):
time. I'm hoping, I'm sure,that they've made changes since then
for accessibility.
Very much so, yeah. I've beenup there recently, and it looked
like an entirely differentcampus. They had accessible buses
running through the campus.They had active disabled students
office. They had ramps toevery building that needed it. Totally
(17:58):
different campus right now.
So when you got out, when yougraduated, I know that you pursued
a career in rehabilitativecounseling. Did you go there first
or did you go back to in.
No. What happened? While I wasat Cornell, I think it really became
clear. Even though I graduatedwith a degree in engineering, engineering
really didn't seem like aviable field for me. I mean, this
(18:19):
was well before there werelaptop computers, and it was really
difficult for me to functionas an engineer. But I had a psychology
professor at Cornell who tookan interest in me, and he encouraged
me to pursue a career inpsychology and as a counselor. So
(18:40):
with that advice, I decided tostay on at Cornell, and I earned
my master's degree, where Imajored in counseling and student
personnel administration. AndI became the first quadriplegic to
earn a graduate degree fromCornell as well. And then to increase
my counseling credentials, Iwent to Columbia University, where
(19:02):
I obtained my second master'sdegree. This one was in psychological
counseling and rehabilitation.And now with 2 degrees from Cornell
and one from Columbia, Idecided to look for a job in the
rehabilitation counselingfield. And I felt fairly confident
that I should be able to get agood job doing that type of work
(19:25):
well. I looked for a job for ayear and sent out more than 200 resumes.
It seemed in the mid-70s,everyone felt I was just too disabled
to work. Finally, I found oneorganization willing to give me the
opportunity to show what Icould do. And that organization was
Abilities Incorporated, whichis part of what's now called the
(19:49):
Viscardi center, and they'relocated on Long Island, New York,
where I was hired to work asvocational rehabilitation counselor
for other individuals who hadsevere disabilities.
You know what it.Unfortunately, I think that at least
back then, fortunately andunfortunately, fortunately, you were
(20:13):
able to find someone thatbelieved in you and that was able
to recognize that you are morethan just an individual that's in
a wheelchair, an individualthat is disabled, an individual that
needed an opportunity. Theysaw something within you that allowed
you to be able to inspireothers and motivate others and Let
(20:36):
them know that they are notalone and that they have the opportunity
to expand their own selves,their own needs, their own abilities
to go out and do the samething that you just did. Because
obviously you took somethingthat was completely at the opposite
(20:56):
end of triumph. You tooktragedy and turned it into triumph.
And you did it in such a waythat it allows you to motivate and
inspire other individuals with that.
Thank you. I was fortunatethat the founder of the Viscardi
Center, Dr. Henry Viscardi Jr.Had a disability himself. He was
(21:16):
basically born without legsand walked on prosthetic legs. And
he dedicated his life to. Tohelping other people with disabilities
get the proper schooling aswell as to get employment. So his
facility was geared towardshelping people with disabilities
find employment. I was very fortunate.
(21:37):
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Contact with him and be hired there.
Yeah, that's very cool. Whatgot you into. What got you into law?
That's an interesting story aswell. You know, my job duties at
the center were expanding thelonger I was there. And one of the
things that they had me do wasto go out and speak before groups
(22:00):
and organizations concerningaffirmative action and non discrimination
for people with disabilities.And often after my talks, I would
be asked questions. And whileI'd certainly do my best to answer
those questions, I was alwaysvery careful to caution. The question
is they should really speakwith a lawyer about their concerns.
(22:20):
And I guess it didn't takelong before I started to think, you
know, there's no reason why Icouldn't become that lawyer. So I
left the center to go to lawschool. And in fact, my older brother
Stephen at the time was alawyer. He was working as a defense
attorney for the publicdefender's office. And while I was
in law school, Steve suggestedthat I do an internship at the district
(22:43):
attorney's office. And it wasa great suggestion. And after my
second year of law school, Idid an internship at the district
attorney's office. And notonly did I enjoy the experience,
I fell in love with theoffice. And I found a new way that
I could help people and servethe community as a whole. So when
I graduated, I applied for afull time position with them.
(23:07):
Very cool, very cool. Now, youknow, the question always begs, your
brother was a defense attorneyand you were prosecuting, you know,
the prosecuting side of itfrom the district attorney. Do you
guys ever meet up?
You know, we saw each other incourt a lot, but, you know, we certainly
made an agreement we wouldnever have a trial against each other.
(23:27):
And, you know, it probablywould have had the appearance of
impropriety. So I always hadsomebody else in the office handle
his case. I might add that hiswife was a judge. So here we had
a defense attorney, a DA and ajudge in the family.
Family affair. Family affair.I might do it just to. Just to dig
my brother. I won, bro. That'skind of cool, actually. What kind
(23:54):
of challenges did you come upwith? Did you in the courtroom? Since
you mentioned that you met upsometimes in the courthouse, do you
have any challenges in thecourtroom, being in a courtroom?
Oh, goodness, just abouteverything that I did there was a
challenge. And let me start bytelling you that I was able to complete
law school in the standardthree year time period. I passed
(24:17):
the difficult New York Statebar exam the first time that I took
it. And I began my employmentby participating in a very intensive
four week training programwhere they taught us all aspects
of trial techniques from aprosecutor's perspective. And I was
so proud to go to court myfirst day and I couldn't fit through
(24:38):
the swinging doorways in thecourtroom. Oh, no, it was too narrow
to allow me to get throughwith my electric wheelchair to the
prosecutor's table. So youmentioned that I face any challenges
from day one. I was, my firstassignment was to our traffic court
bureau, which was located onthe second floor of a neighboring
(24:58):
building. And I was promotedafter just three days because the
elevator was broken and theydidn't know when it would be fixed.
In fact, my first day there, Ihad to have the judge help carry
me in my wheelchair down thesteps, which was so horrific. But,
you know, eventually when Igot to our district court bureau
(25:21):
and I started doing trials,not long after I did it, which was
real challenging just to getinto the courtroom. And I couldn't
even approach the bench when Ineeded to. The judge usually had
to come off the benchoftentimes to speak with me. But
when I started doing trials, Iwas told not long after that by a
(25:42):
defense attorney that he wasapproached by some of the prisoners
in the pens behind thecourtroom who told them that I was
a really tough ADA and theyhope they didn't get the guy in the
wheelchair as theirprosecutor. So I was fortunate, but
I had to rely a lot on mymemory. You know, I did most of my
(26:03):
work, most of my trial workthrough memory. You know, I would
deliver my summation.
That's a task in itself.
Yeah, yeah. I didn't have anynotes in front of me when I was doing
my summations.
Yeah, that's, that's A task. Imean, understanding. I've been in
the court thousands of timesduring my career, and that's definitely
a very. Yeah, that in itselfis a task. So well done. Well done,
(26:25):
Ken. Yeah, that's pretty cool.When you get a reputation like that
from the bad guys and say, Idon't want that guy. We don't want
that guy. You have aparticularly challenging case. Just.
I gotta ask this just becausewe have that connection just a little
bit, do you have, like, aparticularly challenging case you
(26:46):
had to work on?
Well, I had a lot ofchallenging cases over my career.
I tried 76 trials, 65 of whichwere felonies. I did 118 pretrial
hearings, and I presented 252cases to the grand jury. But let
me tell you the aftermath ofone of my trials. I tried an individual
(27:10):
who had previously beenconvicted of a felony. He was, you
know, somebody who'd been introuble a lot in the past and had
a violent background. Andduring my trial, he was convicted
of a class D felony in NewYork, but he remained out of jail
(27:30):
pending sentence. And when thesentence day came about, as I got
in the elevator to take theelevator down to the courtroom, suddenly
he got in the elevator withme. And now we're alone in the elevator,
just he and I, and, you know,there's nothing I could do. I'm virtually
totally paralyzed. And he saysto me as we're riding down the elevator,
(27:53):
I have a proposition for you.If you don't send me to jail, I'll
agree to work as your personalcare attendant for a year. I couldn't
believe it. I wonder how manyof my personal care attendants felt
working for me for a yearwould be the equivalent of going
to jail for a few years. Well,fortunately, the elevator door opened
(28:13):
right around then, and Ipolitely turned down his request,
went to the courtroom, and hewas sentenced to two to four years
upstate.
That's really interesting theway he tried to negotiate his own
plea bargain with regard to,yeah, I'll take care of you for how
(28:33):
long?
Well, you know, when you talkabout challenges, I had a lot of
health challenges as well,because, you know, I constantly was
getting sick with bronchitisor other respiratory infections or
had problems with. With bedsores. And, you know, it was a challenge
to be able to, you know,maintain my caseload. Caseload, you
(28:57):
know, keep up to date on thelaw and everything involved, and,
you know, deal with my healthissues as well. But I was fortunate.
How did you become a bureau chief?
Well, I was fortunate. I did Alot of trials. And I was promoted
to our county court trialbureau before most of my colleagues.
(29:18):
And there the number oftrials, pretrial hearings, and grand
jury presentations I was doingeach year were consistently among
the highest in my bureau. Sothe district attorney, his name was
Dennis Dillon at the time, wasa very progressive, forward thinking
district attorney, who, Imight add, based his hiring decision
on my abilities rather than mydisability, which is admirable, and
(29:42):
heard the work I was doing.And he promoted me a number of times
until I became one of thedeputy bureau chiefs of our county
court trial bureau, where Iwas helping Supervise more than 25
other assistant district attorneys.
That's a far cry from sittingin front of a telephone selling magazine
(30:02):
subscriptions.
Absolutely. And if I mightjust tell you a little further back.
In May of 1997, I went down toWashington, D.C. where I was admitted
to practice law before theUnited States Supreme Court. And
while I was sitting before allnine Supreme Court justices, I was
(30:25):
struck by the irony that thenext day, the next day in May, May
20, I was asked to be one ofthe speakers at the Rusk Institute
to help celebrate their 50thanniversary. Now, the Rusk Institute
was the rehab facility I hadbeen a patient at 26 years earlier.
That was the facility thatseemed to think the best I would
(30:47):
ever be able to do would be tosell magazine subscriptions over
the telephone. And here I wassitting before the United States
Supreme Court and I couldn'twait to go to Rusk the next day and
tell them about what I've beendoing with my life.
Yeah, it's like. Yeah, here Ijust, let me, let me phrase where
I've just come from. I've justcome from the Supreme Court. Yeah.
(31:10):
Thank you very much. That'spretty cool. Actually. I think that.
What an amazing journey inovercoming so many obstacles and
continuing to motivateyourself in order to inspire and
motivate others. And, youknow, the fact that the mere fact
that you were told that thebest you could do was to sell magazine
(31:31):
subscriptions, and it takes alot to get you approved to go in
front of the Supreme Court,United States Supreme Court, just
any Supreme Court, but the USSupreme Court. So to go from that
to that in itself is alifetime achievement. That's amazing.
On top of triplets, man.Triplets. Not just one, but triplets.
(31:56):
Yeah, it's, it's very cool.How do you balance? I mean, you're
still working.
You know, I retired earlier.Well, last year from, you know, I
retired full time. Were in2016. But then I continued to work
part time for the next eightyears. And last year, I actually
(32:18):
retired full time and spentmore time now working on my book
and promoting the book that I wrote.
Was it hard to balance your.The career in being a husband and
a father?
You know, it was difficult.But I fortunately have an incorporation.
Incredible wife. Her name isAnna, and she is incredible. To raise
(32:40):
three triplets and take careof me at the same time and help me
write my book and doeverything else that she needed to
do to, you know, keep ourhousehold going. I was very fortunate,
I might just add. I'd like totell you how I came up with the title
of my book.
Absolutely, yeah.
While I was still a patient inthe rehab facility, I was invited
(33:03):
to testify before a UnitedStates health subcommittee chaired
by Senator Edward Kennedy. Andeight days after my testimony, Senator
Kennedy sent me a glasspaperweight in the mail that had
an inscription on it that thesenator said his late brother, Robert
Kennedy liked very much. Andthe words on that inscription have
(33:24):
always been very meaningful tome. The inscription read, some men
see things as they are andsay, why? I dream of things that
never were and say, why not?That's where I got the title of my
book, I Dream of Things thatnever Were. The Ken Kunkin Story.
That's very cool, actually.What an amazing quote, and what an
(33:47):
amazing thing to get that froma Kennedy to be recognized for your
accomplishments and whatyou've done. That's pretty slick.
Had you ever thought aboutbeing an author before? Did that
come about?
Never. Never in my wildestdreams. You know, one of the reasons
(34:08):
why I pursued a career inengineering, you know, engineers,
we were known for our mathability, not so much for our English.
So the thought of ever being awriter and a published author never
occurred to me. But when I wasfirst hurt in the rehab center, a
friend of my aunt's thoughtthat it would be good for me to help
(34:30):
get over the severe depressionI was in at the time, to talk about
what I was going through andto be able to inform other individuals
what it was like to have aspinal cord injury and go through
rehab. So he suggested that Iwrite a book, and he would help me
with it. And he used to cometo the rehab center once a week while
(34:50):
I was there for me to talk tohim. And he would take down dictation.
And then I went back toschool. So, of course, we stopped
it, and then we'd start againand stop again. And this was more
than 50 years ago. And, youknow, every so often I'd pick up
the book and try and write alittle more, and I tried to do it
(35:12):
by a tape recorder, and Iwasn't able to. To do that well.
And eventually after mytriplets were born, my wife suggested
that we really should sit downtogether when we had the opportunity
and finish my book. So, youknow, when we had spare time, which
was not often, we would sittogether and I would dictate to her
(35:34):
and she would type on herlaptop computer. And eventually when
I retired full time, it gaveus more opportunity to work on the
book. So my book was startedmore than 50 years ago and finally
published.
Well, thank you, Anna.
Right.
In more ways than one,actually. Yes. The love of our lives,
(35:59):
obviously, are an amazingthing within itself. My wife and
I have about 35 and a halfyears together, and, you know, between
that and our kids, too, I ameternally grateful for all three
of them and helping me througheverything that I've been through.
So the importance of familyand the importance of those that
(36:20):
love you around you, to helpyou through things and to be there
is immeasurable. Can't put itinto words of how much it means to
people like us that needassistance and. And need help. And,
you know, I'm grateful everyday that my wife, because I'm still
have. I still have issueswhere I can't do certain things.
(36:40):
And, you know, my wife stillgets me dressed and she still combs
my hair and. Looks good, too,doesn't it? See? Looks great. So,
you know, she couldn't. Shecould just mess it all up and then
go, there you go. But. So,yes, I'm grateful for that. Well,
let's talk a little bit aboutyour book. It you. So it's 50 years
(37:03):
in the making, and it'sbasically your life story. So it's
a lot. Some of what we'vespoken about here. What else can
somebody find within that bookto help them, to inspire them, to
motivate them to understandthat you're not alone and that you
do have hope. And, you know,there is one more thing.
Thank you. Well, you know,when I was first injured, I didn't
(37:25):
know of any other role modelsthat I could look to for hope or
motivation or inspiration.They might have been out there at
the time, but I just didn'tknow about them. And during the course
of my life following myinjury, I was asked to speak at a
number of different events andbefore a lot of different groups.
(37:46):
And I was often told that whatI've done with my life has inspired
and motivated people, peopleto do more with their lives. So I
was encouraged to actuallywrite this book as a way of reaching
more people to hopefullyinspire and motivate them to do more
(38:08):
with their lives. And as aresult, you know, I decided to go
into a lot of detail aboutwhat I went through, the highs and
the lows, and say exactly whatI went through and how depressed
I was and how I was able toovercome that depression and do what
(38:28):
I did. And in fact, one of mycolleagues later got in touch with
me and told me that heactually had a brother who had a
disability similar to mine.And he was always hesitant to ask
him any questions about his.His brother unfortunately died many
years ago. And he said afterreading my book, he learned an awful
(38:51):
lot about what his brothermust have gone through and he felt
it benefited him to know moreabout what it's like to have a disability
such as mine. But I've beenencouraged that not only a person
with a disability willhopefully benefit by it, but family
members of the person andcaregivers of the person, as well
(39:12):
as athletes. I've spokenbefore athletes and corporations
and, you know, businessleaders and unions, employers. I've
spoken before so manydifferent groups who told me that
they found it helpful,inspiring and motivating to hear
more about my story. Andthat's why I'm hoping that by writing
(39:34):
my book, which is out also asa Kindle version and now out as an
audio version, as an audiobook, could reach more people, and
particularly I hope it reachespeople in the medical profession
to show them what it feelslike to be a patient and be the recipient
(39:54):
of medical care and whatyou're thinking about at the time
and how the fact that the waythey deal with you makes such an
impression and such adifference in your life and how you
feel on a day to day basis, Ithink it's.
An amazing opportunity forsomebody to be able to be educated
as well as inspired andmotivated. Because your journey in
(40:16):
itself is something thatyou've. I mean, you look at many
times you went back to school,look at the accomplishments that
you've been able to make inspite of. And the reality is, again,
and this is, I know I keeprepeating it, but from being told
that all you can do is sellmagazine subscriptions at home on
(40:37):
the phone, to sitting in frontof the Supreme Court of the United
States is something that is anoutstanding, brilliant display of
fortitude and perseverance andbeing able to see the light at the
end of the tunnel and tounderstand hope and joy and Love
(41:01):
all in one encompassingcircle. So I think everybody should
take a look at this book.Yeah, I'll put a link in the show
notes to make sure and if youwere looking for it, you can go to
www.kenkonkin.com and you'llbe able to find a little bit more
about Ken, his journey and howto get there and how to buy the book,
which I'm assuming isavailable on Amazon and, and right.
(41:24):
It is, you know, otherplatforms. So yeah, I, I really appreciate
what you've done in yourjourney that you've, that you've
come through and you know,you, those individuals that have
been faced with what you werefaced with, what I was faced with,
I mean, I'm sure again myjourney in a way compares to, to
(41:45):
yours completely. But I didspend four years in a wheelchair.
We're supposed to be there forthe rest of my life. You know, you
get depressed, you get angry,you get resentful, you get, you know,
there's a gamut of loss anddespair and you know, a multitude
of emotional as well asphysical things that run through
(42:05):
our minds consistently andyour worth, your self worth, your
self esteem and so forth. Andyou've overcome all of that and shown
individuals that you have theopportunity to move forward in life
in spite of. And I appreciate that.
I might add that, you know,one of the things that helped me
(42:27):
a lot was when I was finallygiven the opportunity to work at
the Viscotti Center, I now hadthe opportunity to help others and
that did wonders for myfeelings of self worth and self esteem
and self. And I was fortunateduring my life to have a supportive
family and friends who'shelped me. Their help has helped
(42:51):
me every step of the way. Andnow it's so important to find and
be able to do everything youcan do to help others in their journey.
And we all have a lot we cando to not only make our lives better,
but the lives of those aroundus better as well. And that's so
important.
I agree with that. Ken, thankyou very much for sharing your journey
(43:14):
with me. Thank you for beinghere. Thank you for accomplishing
what you have accomplished andwhat you've given back to the world.
I'm grateful and I know thatthere are thousands of others that
are grateful as well. Thankyou for your career in law as well.
Thank you, Michael. Thank youfor giving me the opportunity to
share my story.
We're going to share itworldwide, my friend. Share it worldwide.
(43:36):
This is one more thing beforeyou go though. So before we go, do
you have any words of wisdomyou can share?
Well, a few things. One, don'tset limited expectations for people
because your expectations canhave a profound effect on what others
eventually accomplish. Becausepeople's performance often rises
and falls based upon whatothers expect of them. So it's so
(43:59):
important to keep yourexpectations high. And in addition,
I would like to say it's soimportant to participate. Don't just
sit back on the sidelineswaiting for something to happen.
Good things come to you whenyou work for them, and it's only
when you're actively involvedthat you have control over the outcome.
And lastly, I'd like to sayjust because something has not been
(44:22):
done before doesn't mean youcannot do it now.
Brilliant work. Words ofwisdom, Ken. Brilliant words of wisdom.
Thank you for sharing those.And again, thank you very much to
Anna, your wife, for beingwith you all this time and for connecting
us. I'm grateful, Anna, foryou bringing Ken to us. But Ken,
(44:43):
thank you very much for beinghere. I would love to reach out to
you later in this year andwe'll have another conversation.
That would be great. I'd lookforward to it. Michael, thank you.
Fantastic. So for everyoneelse out there, one more thing before
you all go. I hope that youhave a wonderful day, a great week,
and thank you for being here.Thanks for listening to this episode
(45:04):
of One More Thing before youeGo. Check out our website@beforeyougopodcast.com
youm can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
Have you ever faced achallenge that seemed insurmountable?
What would motivate you tokeep pushing forward when things
get tough? We're going toanswer these questions and more when
we have a conversation with aninspiring guest whose story is one
of resilience, determination,and triumph over adversity. I'm your
host, Michael Hurst. Welcometo one more thing before you go.
(00:29):
My guest today, Ken Kunkin'sjourney began in 1970 when he broke
his neck playing football forCornell University. It left him almost
totally paralyzed from hisshoulders down. Despite this life
altering injury, Ken returnedto Cornell to complete his undergraduate
degree in engineering. Hedidn't stop there. He went on to
earn a Master of Arts degreein Education from Cornell and a Master's
(00:51):
of education in Psychologyfrom Columbia University. He became
a nationally certifiedrehabilitation counselor and worked
at Abilities Incorporated,voc, vocational and placement counseling
to severely disabledindividuals. But he didn't stop there
as well. Ken enrolled inHofstra University School of Law
and he worked for over 40years as a Nassau County Assistant
(01:13):
District Attorney, eventuallybecoming a Deputy Bureau chief. His
memoir, I Dream of Things thatNever Were the Ken Kanken Story,
was published in 2023. Itchronicles his incredible journey.
Today we'll explore Ken'sstory, exploring his motivations,
his challenges and, and histriumphs. And I am honored to have
(01:35):
you on the show, Ken.
Thank you, Michael. And thankyou for having me as your guest.
You know, it is again, anamazing journey that you have been
on because a lot of peoplewould have given up even before it
got started. But I, Iappreciate where you've come from
and the opportunities for youto give back, especially to the community
(01:55):
that needs it and in your lawcareer. We talked about that a little
bit ago. Working with thedistrict attorney's office, we have
just a little bit something incommon. They're a brotherhood.
Right.
I like to start things at thebeginning. So where'd you grow up?
I grew up in Long island inNassau County, Long Island. And I
(02:19):
might add, Michael, that I'vehad help every step of my way both
before and after my injury.Just so you know a little bit about
my early life. My mother diedwhen I was less than one month old.
It was in 1950 during thepolio epidemic. She unfortunately
caught the disease and passedaway before I was one month old.
(02:42):
So after that we moved in withmy grandparents for a few years before
my father remarried. So we'vehad help every step of the way from
a very close knit family thatI've been fortunate to have.
You Know, it's interestingbecause we had this a little bit
of a conversation before westarted and, you know, I understand
(03:05):
that journey. Sometimes it isdifficult for those of you out there
that are into it now or justbeginning your journey, it's always
important to understand that,you know, you have those around you
that will help you andthey'll, you know, stand beside you
when you need it. They'll holdyour hand when you need it. They'll
push you forward when you needit. They'll pull you forward when
you need it. You justsometimes have to. Have to be just
(03:27):
to look around, just to ask.And I'm happy that you had those
individuals around you tobring you forward.
I was very fortunate.
I know you went to CornellUniversity. You said in. When I got
your background and I did alittle research on you, you went
football. Excuse me? Youplayed football for Cornell University.
(03:48):
Is that what brought youthere? Did you get a scholarship?
No, actually. Well, Cornelldoesn't give out athletic scholarships.
I went there because I wasalways very good in math. That was
my best subject. And my highschool guidance counselor said, if
you're good in math, youshould be an engineer. So with that
advice, my brother encouragedme to apply to Cornell University.
(04:12):
He's two years older than Iam. He desperately wanted to go to
Cornell and was not accepted.So he ended up going to the University
of Vermont, where my fatherand mother both went. And at my brother's
suggestion, I applied toCornell, was admitted and decided
to go there. And I just mightadd, I was on Cornell's lightweight
(04:34):
football team. They also had asecond team that was in a special
league at the time. It wasalso called 150 pound football, and
they were for some of thesmaller players. And I was on that
team. It's now called sprint football.
Well, that. That's the firsttime I've heard that. Actually. I
played football in highschool, but I guess it would be similar
(04:56):
to when I went to high school.They had an A squad and a B squad,
but they had the A squad wasthey played all the time. Then the
B squad, we filled in, or ifsomebody got injured, then we popped
in there, something like that.But it's great for the opportunity
for, for others to get in aswell. So when you were playing football,
(05:17):
how far into your universitycareer did you get injured?
This was during my junioryear. I was 20 years old. It happened
in the fourth game of theseason on a play that I normally
wouldn't have even been in on.It happened on a kickoff and during
the first play of the game.One of our players got a concussion
(05:37):
on the kickoff and obviouslycouldn't continue playing. So I was
put in on that play to takehis place. And we had just scored
a touchdown. We were leading16 to nothing at the time. It was
still in the first quarter.And on the kickoff, I ran down the
field, tackled the ballcarrier, and when I did, I broke
(06:00):
my neck and severely damagedmy spinal cord, and I was instantly
paralyzed.
Can you. I mean, it's got tobe kind of devastating at that time.
Can you. Are you okay if wetalk about that journey?
Oh, absolutely.
Can you tell us the moment yourealized you were paralyzed? I mean,
how did that make you feel?
Well, it happened instantly.As soon as I hit the ball carry,
(06:22):
I felt like an electric shockshooting through my body. And suddenly
I lost not only all movement,but. But I lost all sensation below
my shoulders. So I couldn'tfeel anything below my shoulders.
I didn't know what the problemwas. I thought maybe I had pinched
a nerve and in a few secondsI'd be back up on my feet. I had
(06:44):
never even heard of a spinalcord injury before my injury before
that.
I mean, it's got to be,obviously, once you realize what
was happening, I'm sure thatit's got to be devastating to even
think about what, what, what'snext. I mean, I. I can understand
to a certain extent, I canunderstand because what happened
to me, you know, I got. As Iwe said earlier, and my audience
(07:07):
knows, you know, when I gotinjured myself and, you know, I'm
laying down my back there andthen there were like a bazillion
things running through my mindat that time. And, you know, one
of them was obviously myfamily, you know, my kids. And, you
know, what am I going to do?What they going to do, what's going
to happen kind of a thing, youknow, what, what were your next steps?
(07:30):
What took. What happened?
Well, what happened is, youknow, obviously they called for an
ambulance, they put me on astretcher, and when they were carrying
me off the field, it felt asif they were just carrying my head
off the field and leaving mybody behind because I had no feeling
below my shoulders at thatpoint. Point felt like I had just
(07:51):
been decapitated. But I endedup obviously going to the hospital
where my uniform was cut off.X rays were taken, and they saw that
my injury was so serious thatparticular hospital was not able
to handle my situation. So Iwas put back in an ambulance and
(08:12):
sent to a second hospital. Iended up spending the next nine months
and 20 days in varioushospitals and rehabilitation centers.
That in itself is a journey,having to get through all of that.
And you know, I'm sure thatwhat you were facing at that time
was what am I going to do withthe rest of my life?
(08:33):
Right. And you know, what wasparticularly depressing and demoralizing
is the medical personnel justseemed hesitant to answer any of
my questions. And I later gota hold of a pamphlet that the rehab
center provided. And withsomebody turning the pages for me,
I learned that somebody with acondition such as mine, I'm hurt
(08:58):
between the fourth and fifthcervical in the neck. The medical
personnel seemed to think thebest that I would ever be able to
do would perhaps be somedayable to sell magazine subscriptions
over the telephone. I wasdevastated when I saw that. I mean,
here I had been in my junioryear studying engineering at one
(09:20):
of the most prestigiousengineering schools in the country,
and now I was looking at acareer, if I was lucky, it seemed
like, to sell magazinesubscriptions over the telephone.
Yeah, that's. I think that,you know, during that time period
it, it's, I mean, obviouslythings have evolved a little bit
since then. They've got moretechnology, more opportunity for
(09:40):
us, those of us that are, thatget injured, to be able to have a
better understanding. And thetransparency, I think is a.
Little more available that atthat time there weren't even touch
tone phones, they were rotaryphones, which I couldn't dial. And
this was certainly well beforethey were laptop computers. So I
(10:01):
didn't think I could even dothat job of selling magazine subscriptions
over the telephone.
Yeah, because you couldn't,you couldn't dial and yeah, that,
I mean, obviously that initself I think would. It's challenging
both mentally, not justphysically, but it's also challenged
mentally because again, whatare we going to do? What am I supposed
to do? How am I going to dothis? How's my life going to go forward
(10:25):
at that time, may I ask, whendid, when did you meet your wife?
I met my wife almost 50 years,about 50 years after my injury. It
was just under. And I had putan ad in the newspaper looking for
a personal care attendant tohelp me on weekends. And I was fortunate
(10:47):
that my wife responded to thead. And I fortunately made the decision
of hiring my wife to help meon weekends. Actually, it wasn't
50 years after I was hurt, itwas 30 years after I was hurt. So
I met my wife. I got her in1970, I met her in 1999. So I was
(11:12):
current almost 30 years.
At that time, even before thatpart. Wow. Yeah. But look where you're
at now. A wonderfulopportunity for you and your wife.
That's pretty cool. You have kids.
Yeah. Well, that's aninteresting story as well. When I
met my wife, she indicatedthat when our relationship turned
(11:35):
into a romantic relationship,we decided that we'd get married.
And she told me she'd like tohave my baby. Not just a baby, my
baby. She said she wanted tosee a little kanken running around
our home. Now, this reallyseemed impossible at the time. I
had been paralyzed for morethan 30 years by then, and I was
(11:57):
already in my 50s. So weresearched various options, and we
learned that through in vitrofertilization, it may still be possible
for me to father a child. Sowe pursued in vitro fertilization,
and through the miracle ofscience, Anna became pregnant. And
(12:17):
just about 20 years ago, onJanuary 24, 2005, I was present in
the delivery room. I waspresent in the delivery room when
my wife, Ana, gave birth totriplets. We have three incredible
sons, Joseph, James, andTimothy. They're now all sophomores
(12:41):
at three separate colleges inupstate New York.
That's amazing, actually.Congratulations and well done. Brought
tears to my eyes. What anopportunity. So you were hoping for
one, and you got two more bonuses.
I thought it was a miraclethat we'd even have one. And suddenly
we end up with triplets. Icouldn't be happier. We've been so
(13:03):
blessed.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.That's pretty cool, actually. I think
that the opportunity presenteditself in such a unique way, and
you hit the jackpot, Ken.
We sure did.
Yes, you did.
Our boys are now 20 years old,doing great.
Well, what. What motivated youto return to Cornell and complete
your undergraduate degree? Imean, this. I'm probably backtracking
(13:26):
a little bit, but if you don'tmind, I. I was thinking about this
earlier because you went back.I went back to school, you know,
after I got all my stuff takencare of, and I realized that, you
know, my journey was going tocontinue. I went back to university
and got a bachelor's andfinished my bachelor's and then got
a master's degree. So what.What motivated you to return to Cornell
(13:49):
and complete yourundergraduate degree?
Well, I had a vocationalcounselor at the Rusk Institute where
I did my rehab, who encouragedme to recognize, obviously, that
due to my physicallimitations, I needed to make the
most of my mental abilities.So she encouraged me to go back to
school. And in my mind, myattitude was I wanted to pick up
(14:12):
my Life right where it was atthe time of my injury. I was trying
to do my best not to let myinjury interfere with anything that
I thought I would have donehad I not been injured. So that meant,
of course, going back to theschool I was attending, and that
was Cornell. What I didn'treally take fully into consideration
was how inaccessible Cornellwas at the time. I mean, I had the
(14:36):
added misfortune of beinginjured about 20 years before the
Americans with Disabilitiesact took effect. So there was not
one ramp or curb cut on theentire campus. And Cornell's on a
very hilly terrain. Virtuallyevery one of its buildings had steps.
(14:57):
On my first day of class, Ihad to be either pulled up or bounced
down close to 100 steps justto attend my first day.
Holy smokes. That's crazy. Butyou persevered, obviously, and things
got you an undergraduatedegree, right?
(15:18):
Well, I had a lot of help frommy personal care attendants and my
fellow classmates. And, ofcourse, my family have been so supportive
every step of the way, andthey basically assured me, if need
be, they'd act as my arms andlegs to make sure I could do everything
I wanted to do. And, boy, itgot to the point where I didn't want
to disappoint them. They wereso helpful and so encouraging that
(15:45):
I decided I really had to doeverything I could do to make something
of my life. Now, my family wasnot with me at Cornell at the time,
certainly not my first yearwhen I went back, but through a lot
of help. In 1973, I became thefirst quadriplegic to ever graduate
(16:06):
from Cornell.
That's amazing.Congratulations on that. What an
achievement. I mean,obviously, to manage both the physical
and the emotional challengesduring all of that. I'm sure we're
difficult. I mean, no way cancompare my journey to yours, but
(16:27):
I understand the challengesof. Of being in a wheelchair. There's
challenges of thoseaccessibility routes and having to
require help from otherindividuals in getting through daily
tasks and through everythingthat you have to do. So I admire
that very much. I think thatthe physical, the emotional opportunities
(16:52):
for you, that had to be a verysatisfying day when you graduated.
It sure was. And, you know, Imight add, during this time, I was
still just going to get usedto my new physical condition. I went
back TO CORNELL Just 11 daysafter I was discharged from the hospital.
So, you know, there was quitea lot of adjusting going on during
(17:15):
that time period. And, youknow, I was so worried just about
going up and down all thesteps to get to my classes. It was
Difficult to pay attention tomy lecturers once I arrived there.
Yeah, I can imagine thatdefinitely they weren't built for
individuals that have adisability in any form during that
(17:37):
time. I'm hoping, I'm sure,that they've made changes since then
for accessibility.
Very much so, yeah. I've beenup there recently, and it looked
like an entirely differentcampus. They had accessible buses
running through the campus.They had active disabled students
office. They had ramps toevery building that needed it. Totally
(17:58):
different campus right now.
So when you got out, when yougraduated, I know that you pursued
a career in rehabilitativecounseling. Did you go there first
or did you go back to in.
No. What happened? While I wasat Cornell, I think it really became
clear. Even though I graduatedwith a degree in engineering, engineering
really didn't seem like aviable field for me. I mean, this
(18:19):
was well before there werelaptop computers, and it was really
difficult for me to functionas an engineer. But I had a psychology
professor at Cornell who tookan interest in me, and he encouraged
me to pursue a career inpsychology and as a counselor. So
(18:40):
with that advice, I decided tostay on at Cornell, and I earned
my master's degree, where Imajored in counseling and student
personnel administration. AndI became the first quadriplegic to
earn a graduate degree fromCornell as well. And then to increase
my counseling credentials, Iwent to Columbia University, where
(19:02):
I obtained my second master'sdegree. This one was in psychological
counseling and rehabilitation.And now with 2 degrees from Cornell
and one from Columbia, Idecided to look for a job in the
rehabilitation counselingfield. And I felt fairly confident
that I should be able to get agood job doing that type of work
(19:25):
well. I looked for a job for ayear and sent out more than 200 resumes.
It seemed in the mid-70s,everyone felt I was just too disabled
to work. Finally, I found oneorganization willing to give me the
opportunity to show what Icould do. And that organization was
Abilities Incorporated, whichis part of what's now called the
(19:49):
Viscardi center, and they'relocated on Long Island, New York,
where I was hired to work asvocational rehabilitation counselor
for other individuals who hadsevere disabilities.
You know what it.Unfortunately, I think that at least
back then, fortunately andunfortunately, fortunately, you were
(20:13):
able to find someone thatbelieved in you and that was able
to recognize that you are morethan just an individual that's in
a wheelchair, an individualthat is disabled, an individual that
needed an opportunity. Theysaw something within you that allowed
you to be able to inspireothers and motivate others and Let
(20:36):
them know that they are notalone and that they have the opportunity
to expand their own selves,their own needs, their own abilities
to go out and do the samething that you just did. Because
obviously you took somethingthat was completely at the opposite
(20:56):
end of triumph. You tooktragedy and turned it into triumph.
And you did it in such a waythat it allows you to motivate and
inspire other individuals with that.
Thank you. I was fortunatethat the founder of the Viscardi
Center, Dr. Henry Viscardi Jr.Had a disability himself. He was
(21:16):
basically born without legsand walked on prosthetic legs. And
he dedicated his life to. Tohelping other people with disabilities
get the proper schooling aswell as to get employment. So his
facility was geared towardshelping people with disabilities
find employment. I was very fortunate.
(21:37):
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
Contact with him and be hired there.
Yeah, that's very cool. Whatgot you into. What got you into law?
That's an interesting story aswell. You know, my job duties at
the center were expanding thelonger I was there. And one of the
things that they had me do wasto go out and speak before groups
(22:00):
and organizations concerningaffirmative action and non discrimination
for people with disabilities.And often after my talks, I would
be asked questions. And whileI'd certainly do my best to answer
those questions, I was alwaysvery careful to caution. The question
is they should really speakwith a lawyer about their concerns.
(22:20):
And I guess it didn't takelong before I started to think, you
know, there's no reason why Icouldn't become that lawyer. So I
left the center to go to lawschool. And in fact, my older brother
Stephen at the time was alawyer. He was working as a defense
attorney for the publicdefender's office. And while I was
in law school, Steve suggestedthat I do an internship at the district
(22:43):
attorney's office. And it wasa great suggestion. And after my
second year of law school, Idid an internship at the district
attorney's office. And notonly did I enjoy the experience,
I fell in love with theoffice. And I found a new way that
I could help people and servethe community as a whole. So when
I graduated, I applied for afull time position with them.
(23:07):
Very cool, very cool. Now, youknow, the question always begs, your
brother was a defense attorneyand you were prosecuting, you know,
the prosecuting side of itfrom the district attorney. Do you
guys ever meet up?
You know, we saw each other incourt a lot, but, you know, we certainly
made an agreement we wouldnever have a trial against each other.
(23:27):
And, you know, it probablywould have had the appearance of
impropriety. So I always hadsomebody else in the office handle
his case. I might add that hiswife was a judge. So here we had
a defense attorney, a DA and ajudge in the family.
Family affair. Family affair.I might do it just to. Just to dig
my brother. I won, bro. That'skind of cool, actually. What kind
(23:54):
of challenges did you come upwith? Did you in the courtroom? Since
you mentioned that you met upsometimes in the courthouse, do you
have any challenges in thecourtroom, being in a courtroom?
Oh, goodness, just abouteverything that I did there was a
challenge. And let me start bytelling you that I was able to complete
law school in the standardthree year time period. I passed
(24:17):
the difficult New York Statebar exam the first time that I took
it. And I began my employmentby participating in a very intensive
four week training programwhere they taught us all aspects
of trial techniques from aprosecutor's perspective. And I was
so proud to go to court myfirst day and I couldn't fit through
(24:38):
the swinging doorways in thecourtroom. Oh, no, it was too narrow
to allow me to get throughwith my electric wheelchair to the
prosecutor's table. So youmentioned that I face any challenges
from day one. I was, my firstassignment was to our traffic court
bureau, which was located onthe second floor of a neighboring
(24:58):
building. And I was promotedafter just three days because the
elevator was broken and theydidn't know when it would be fixed.
In fact, my first day there, Ihad to have the judge help carry
me in my wheelchair down thesteps, which was so horrific. But,
you know, eventually when Igot to our district court bureau
(25:21):
and I started doing trials,not long after I did it, which was
real challenging just to getinto the courtroom. And I couldn't
even approach the bench when Ineeded to. The judge usually had
to come off the benchoftentimes to speak with me. But
when I started doing trials, Iwas told not long after that by a
(25:42):
defense attorney that he wasapproached by some of the prisoners
in the pens behind thecourtroom who told them that I was
a really tough ADA and theyhope they didn't get the guy in the
wheelchair as theirprosecutor. So I was fortunate, but
I had to rely a lot on mymemory. You know, I did most of my
(26:03):
work, most of my trial workthrough memory. You know, I would
deliver my summation.
That's a task in itself.
Yeah, yeah. I didn't have anynotes in front of me when I was doing
my summations.
Yeah, that's, that's A task. Imean, understanding. I've been in
the court thousands of timesduring my career, and that's definitely
a very. Yeah, that in itselfis a task. So well done. Well done,
(26:25):
Ken. Yeah, that's pretty cool.When you get a reputation like that
from the bad guys and say, Idon't want that guy. We don't want
that guy. You have aparticularly challenging case. Just.
I gotta ask this just becausewe have that connection just a little
bit, do you have, like, aparticularly challenging case you
(26:46):
had to work on?
Well, I had a lot ofchallenging cases over my career.
I tried 76 trials, 65 of whichwere felonies. I did 118 pretrial
hearings, and I presented 252cases to the grand jury. But let
me tell you the aftermath ofone of my trials. I tried an individual
(27:10):
who had previously beenconvicted of a felony. He was, you
know, somebody who'd been introuble a lot in the past and had
a violent background. Andduring my trial, he was convicted
of a class D felony in NewYork, but he remained out of jail
(27:30):
pending sentence. And when thesentence day came about, as I got
in the elevator to take theelevator down to the courtroom, suddenly
he got in the elevator withme. And now we're alone in the elevator,
just he and I, and, you know,there's nothing I could do. I'm virtually
totally paralyzed. And he saysto me as we're riding down the elevator,
(27:53):
I have a proposition for you.If you don't send me to jail, I'll
agree to work as your personalcare attendant for a year. I couldn't
believe it. I wonder how manyof my personal care attendants felt
working for me for a yearwould be the equivalent of going
to jail for a few years. Well,fortunately, the elevator door opened
(28:13):
right around then, and Ipolitely turned down his request,
went to the courtroom, and hewas sentenced to two to four years
upstate.
That's really interesting theway he tried to negotiate his own
plea bargain with regard to,yeah, I'll take care of you for how
(28:33):
long?
Well, you know, when you talkabout challenges, I had a lot of
health challenges as well,because, you know, I constantly was
getting sick with bronchitisor other respiratory infections or
had problems with. With bedsores. And, you know, it was a challenge
to be able to, you know,maintain my caseload. Caseload, you
(28:57):
know, keep up to date on thelaw and everything involved, and,
you know, deal with my healthissues as well. But I was fortunate.
How did you become a bureau chief?
Well, I was fortunate. I did Alot of trials. And I was promoted
to our county court trialbureau before most of my colleagues.
(29:18):
And there the number oftrials, pretrial hearings, and grand
jury presentations I was doingeach year were consistently among
the highest in my bureau. Sothe district attorney, his name was
Dennis Dillon at the time, wasa very progressive, forward thinking
district attorney, who, Imight add, based his hiring decision
on my abilities rather than mydisability, which is admirable, and
(29:42):
heard the work I was doing.And he promoted me a number of times
until I became one of thedeputy bureau chiefs of our county
court trial bureau, where Iwas helping Supervise more than 25
other assistant district attorneys.
That's a far cry from sittingin front of a telephone selling magazine
(30:02):
subscriptions.
Absolutely. And if I mightjust tell you a little further back.
In May of 1997, I went down toWashington, D.C. where I was admitted
to practice law before theUnited States Supreme Court. And
while I was sitting before allnine Supreme Court justices, I was
(30:25):
struck by the irony that thenext day, the next day in May, May
20, I was asked to be one ofthe speakers at the Rusk Institute
to help celebrate their 50thanniversary. Now, the Rusk Institute
was the rehab facility I hadbeen a patient at 26 years earlier.
That was the facility thatseemed to think the best I would
(30:47):
ever be able to do would be tosell magazine subscriptions over
the telephone. And here I wassitting before the United States
Supreme Court and I couldn'twait to go to Rusk the next day and
tell them about what I've beendoing with my life.
Yeah, it's like. Yeah, here Ijust, let me, let me phrase where
I've just come from. I've justcome from the Supreme Court. Yeah.
(31:10):
Thank you very much. That'spretty cool. Actually. I think that.
What an amazing journey inovercoming so many obstacles and
continuing to motivateyourself in order to inspire and
motivate others. And, youknow, the fact that the mere fact
that you were told that thebest you could do was to sell magazine
(31:31):
subscriptions, and it takes alot to get you approved to go in
front of the Supreme Court,United States Supreme Court, just
any Supreme Court, but the USSupreme Court. So to go from that
to that in itself is alifetime achievement. That's amazing.
On top of triplets, man.Triplets. Not just one, but triplets.
(31:56):
Yeah, it's, it's very cool.How do you balance? I mean, you're
still working.
You know, I retired earlier.Well, last year from, you know, I
retired full time. Were in2016. But then I continued to work
part time for the next eightyears. And last year, I actually
(32:18):
retired full time and spentmore time now working on my book
and promoting the book that I wrote.
Was it hard to balance your.The career in being a husband and
a father?
You know, it was difficult.But I fortunately have an incorporation.
Incredible wife. Her name isAnna, and she is incredible. To raise
(32:40):
three triplets and take careof me at the same time and help me
write my book and doeverything else that she needed to
do to, you know, keep ourhousehold going. I was very fortunate,
I might just add. I'd like totell you how I came up with the title
of my book.
Absolutely, yeah.
While I was still a patient inthe rehab facility, I was invited
(33:03):
to testify before a UnitedStates health subcommittee chaired
by Senator Edward Kennedy. Andeight days after my testimony, Senator
Kennedy sent me a glasspaperweight in the mail that had
an inscription on it that thesenator said his late brother, Robert
Kennedy liked very much. Andthe words on that inscription have
(33:24):
always been very meaningful tome. The inscription read, some men
see things as they are andsay, why? I dream of things that
never were and say, why not?That's where I got the title of my
book, I Dream of Things thatnever Were. The Ken Kunkin Story.
That's very cool, actually.What an amazing quote, and what an
(33:47):
amazing thing to get that froma Kennedy to be recognized for your
accomplishments and whatyou've done. That's pretty slick.
Had you ever thought aboutbeing an author before? Did that
come about?
Never. Never in my wildestdreams. You know, one of the reasons
(34:08):
why I pursued a career inengineering, you know, engineers,
we were known for our mathability, not so much for our English.
So the thought of ever being awriter and a published author never
occurred to me. But when I wasfirst hurt in the rehab center, a
friend of my aunt's thoughtthat it would be good for me to help
(34:30):
get over the severe depressionI was in at the time, to talk about
what I was going through andto be able to inform other individuals
what it was like to have aspinal cord injury and go through
rehab. So he suggested that Iwrite a book, and he would help me
with it. And he used to cometo the rehab center once a week while
(34:50):
I was there for me to talk tohim. And he would take down dictation.
And then I went back toschool. So, of course, we stopped
it, and then we'd start againand stop again. And this was more
than 50 years ago. And, youknow, every so often I'd pick up
the book and try and write alittle more, and I tried to do it
(35:12):
by a tape recorder, and Iwasn't able to. To do that well.
And eventually after mytriplets were born, my wife suggested
that we really should sit downtogether when we had the opportunity
and finish my book. So, youknow, when we had spare time, which
was not often, we would sittogether and I would dictate to her
(35:34):
and she would type on herlaptop computer. And eventually when
I retired full time, it gaveus more opportunity to work on the
book. So my book was startedmore than 50 years ago and finally
published.
Well, thank you, Anna.
Right.
In more ways than one,actually. Yes. The love of our lives,
(35:59):
obviously, are an amazingthing within itself. My wife and
I have about 35 and a halfyears together, and, you know, between
that and our kids, too, I ameternally grateful for all three
of them and helping me througheverything that I've been through.
So the importance of familyand the importance of those that
(36:20):
love you around you, to helpyou through things and to be there
is immeasurable. Can't put itinto words of how much it means to
people like us that needassistance and. And need help. And,
you know, I'm grateful everyday that my wife, because I'm still
have. I still have issueswhere I can't do certain things.
(36:40):
And, you know, my wife stillgets me dressed and she still combs
my hair and. Looks good, too,doesn't it? See? Looks great. So,
you know, she couldn't. Shecould just mess it all up and then
go, there you go. But. So,yes, I'm grateful for that. Well,
let's talk a little bit aboutyour book. It you. So it's 50 years
(37:03):
in the making, and it'sbasically your life story. So it's
a lot. Some of what we'vespoken about here. What else can
somebody find within that bookto help them, to inspire them, to
motivate them to understandthat you're not alone and that you
do have hope. And, you know,there is one more thing.
Thank you. Well, you know,when I was first injured, I didn't
(37:25):
know of any other role modelsthat I could look to for hope or
motivation or inspiration.They might have been out there at
the time, but I just didn'tknow about them. And during the course
of my life following myinjury, I was asked to speak at a
number of different events andbefore a lot of different groups.
(37:46):
And I was often told that whatI've done with my life has inspired
and motivated people, peopleto do more with their lives. So I
was encouraged to actuallywrite this book as a way of reaching
more people to hopefullyinspire and motivate them to do more
(38:08):
with their lives. And as aresult, you know, I decided to go
into a lot of detail aboutwhat I went through, the highs and
the lows, and say exactly whatI went through and how depressed
I was and how I was able toovercome that depression and do what
(38:28):
I did. And in fact, one of mycolleagues later got in touch with
me and told me that heactually had a brother who had a
disability similar to mine.And he was always hesitant to ask
him any questions about his.His brother unfortunately died many
years ago. And he said afterreading my book, he learned an awful
(38:51):
lot about what his brothermust have gone through and he felt
it benefited him to know moreabout what it's like to have a disability
such as mine. But I've beenencouraged that not only a person
with a disability willhopefully benefit by it, but family
members of the person andcaregivers of the person, as well
(39:12):
as athletes. I've spokenbefore athletes and corporations
and, you know, businessleaders and unions, employers. I've
spoken before so manydifferent groups who told me that
they found it helpful,inspiring and motivating to hear
more about my story. Andthat's why I'm hoping that by writing
(39:34):
my book, which is out also asa Kindle version and now out as an
audio version, as an audiobook, could reach more people, and
particularly I hope it reachespeople in the medical profession
to show them what it feelslike to be a patient and be the recipient
(39:54):
of medical care and whatyou're thinking about at the time
and how the fact that the waythey deal with you makes such an
impression and such adifference in your life and how you
feel on a day to day basis, Ithink it's.
An amazing opportunity forsomebody to be able to be educated
as well as inspired andmotivated. Because your journey in
(40:16):
itself is something thatyou've. I mean, you look at many
times you went back to school,look at the accomplishments that
you've been able to make inspite of. And the reality is, again,
and this is, I know I keeprepeating it, but from being told
that all you can do is sellmagazine subscriptions at home on
(40:37):
the phone, to sitting in frontof the Supreme Court of the United
States is something that is anoutstanding, brilliant display of
fortitude and perseverance andbeing able to see the light at the
end of the tunnel and tounderstand hope and joy and Love
(41:01):
all in one encompassingcircle. So I think everybody should
take a look at this book.Yeah, I'll put a link in the show
notes to make sure and if youwere looking for it, you can go to
www.kenkonkin.com and you'llbe able to find a little bit more
about Ken, his journey and howto get there and how to buy the book,
which I'm assuming isavailable on Amazon and, and right.
(41:24):
It is, you know, otherplatforms. So yeah, I, I really appreciate
what you've done in yourjourney that you've, that you've
come through and you know,you, those individuals that have
been faced with what you werefaced with, what I was faced with,
I mean, I'm sure again myjourney in a way compares to, to
(41:45):
yours completely. But I didspend four years in a wheelchair.
We're supposed to be there forthe rest of my life. You know, you
get depressed, you get angry,you get resentful, you get, you know,
there's a gamut of loss anddespair and you know, a multitude
of emotional as well asphysical things that run through
(42:05):
our minds consistently andyour worth, your self worth, your
self esteem and so forth. Andyou've overcome all of that and shown
individuals that you have theopportunity to move forward in life
in spite of. And I appreciate that.
I might add that, you know,one of the things that helped me
(42:27):
a lot was when I was finallygiven the opportunity to work at
the Viscotti Center, I now hadthe opportunity to help others and
that did wonders for myfeelings of self worth and self esteem
and self. And I was fortunateduring my life to have a supportive
family and friends who'shelped me. Their help has helped
(42:51):
me every step of the way. Andnow it's so important to find and
be able to do everything youcan do to help others in their journey.
And we all have a lot we cando to not only make our lives better,
but the lives of those aroundus better as well. And that's so
important.
I agree with that. Ken, thankyou very much for sharing your journey
(43:14):
with me. Thank you for beinghere. Thank you for accomplishing
what you have accomplished andwhat you've given back to the world.
I'm grateful and I know thatthere are thousands of others that
are grateful as well. Thankyou for your career in law as well.
Thank you, Michael. Thank youfor giving me the opportunity to
share my story.
We're going to share itworldwide, my friend. Share it worldwide.
(43:36):
This is one more thing beforeyou go though. So before we go, do
you have any words of wisdomyou can share?
Well, a few things. One, don'tset limited expectations for people
because your expectations canhave a profound effect on what others
eventually accomplish. Becausepeople's performance often rises
and falls based upon whatothers expect of them. So it's so
(43:59):
important to keep yourexpectations high. And in addition,
I would like to say it's soimportant to participate. Don't just
sit back on the sidelineswaiting for something to happen.
Good things come to you whenyou work for them, and it's only
when you're actively involvedthat you have control over the outcome.
And lastly, I'd like to sayjust because something has not been
(44:22):
done before doesn't mean youcannot do it now.
Brilliant work. Words ofwisdom, Ken. Brilliant words of wisdom.
Thank you for sharing those.And again, thank you very much to
Anna, your wife, for beingwith you all this time and for connecting
us. I'm grateful, Anna, foryou bringing Ken to us. But Ken,
(44:43):
thank you very much for beinghere. I would love to reach out to
you later in this year andwe'll have another conversation.
That would be great. I'd lookforward to it. Michael, thank you.
Fantastic. So for everyoneelse out there, one more thing before
you all go. I hope that youhave a wonderful day, a great week,
and thank you for being here.Thanks for listening to this episode
(45:04):
of One More Thing before youeGo. Check out our website@beforeyougopodcast.com
youm can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
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