February 26, 2025 • 61 mins
Art and physical activity serve as profound catalysts in the healing process following the loss of a loved one to suicide, facilitating emotional expression and fostering resilience. In this enlightening discussion, we will explore practical steps individuals can undertake to support those who are grieving such a devastating loss.
Our guest, Thomas Brown, exemplifies this journey of transformation; after enduring the tragic loss of his brother to suicide, he embarked on a cross-country bicycle tour aimed at raising awareness about suicide and the therapeutic power of artistic expression. His experiences, deeply rooted in personal tragedy, have propelled him toward a mission of hope and healing that resonates with many. Join us as we delve into this poignant conversation, uncovering insights into the intersection of grief, creativity, and community support.
The podcast delves into the profound impact of personal tragedy on the healing process, as articulated by Thomas Brown, who transformed his grief after losing his brother to suicide into a mission of hope. Throughout the episode, the significance of art and physical activity as therapeutic modalities is explored, emphasizing their roles in facilitating emotional processing and self-expression. Thomas recounts his transformative experience of embarking on a cross-country bicycle journey, which served not only as a tribute to his brother but also as a means of raising awareness about suicide and the healing potential of creative outlets. This journey, following the archetypal Hero's Journey, is dissected to illustrate how engagement with the arts can foster resilience and a sense of community among those grappling with grief. By sharing his narrative, Thomas offers listeners actionable insights into how they can support individuals mourning similar losses, advocating for the importance of connection and shared experiences in the healing process.
Takeaways:
- Art and physical activity serve as vital avenues for healing after experiencing the profound loss of a loved one to suicide.
- Practical steps to support someone grieving a suicide include actively listening and offering emotional presence without judgment.
- Establishing a sense of purpose and meaning in life can be transformative for individuals coping with grief and loss.
- Thomas Brown's journey exemplifies how personal tragedy can be transformed into a mission of hope, promoting awareness and healing for others.
- Engaging in creative expression facilitates emotional release and fosters community support for those affected by suicide.
- The importance of cultivating self-awareness is paramount in navigating grief and developing resilience against future challenges.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Apple TV
- TED Lasso
- Shrinking
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, one more thing before yougo. Before we dive in, I want to
issue a trigger warning. Thisepisode discusses sensitive topics,
including suicide. So pleasetake care of yourself. Listen to
your own pace. If you orsomeone you know is experiencing
thoughts of self harm orharming others, please reach out
to the national SuicidePrevention lifeline by calling or
texting. 9, 8, 8. How can artand physical activity aid in the
(00:22):
healing process after losing aloved one to suicide? Especially,
what are some of the practicalsteps individuals can take to support
someone who is grieving a lossdue to suicide? In this episode,
we're going to answer thesequestions and many more when we have
a conversation with aremarkable individual that turned
his personal tragedy into amission of hope and healing. I'm
(00:44):
your host, Michael Herst.Welcome to One More Thing before
you go. My guest today isThomas Brown. He's an extraordinary
individual who turned personaltragedy into a mission of hope and
(01:05):
healing. After losing hisbrother to suicide in 2001, Thomas
spent a decade grappling withgrief. We've all been there. In 2012,
he and his friend, who alsolost a brother to suicide, embarked
on a cross country bicycletour to raise awareness about suicide
and the healing power of art.Their journey began at the Golden
Gate Bridge in San Franciscoand ended at the Chapel of Sacred
(01:28):
Mirrors in Wappinger Falls,New York. Hope I said that right.
This adventure honored Thomasbrother and followed the path of
Joseph Campbell's hero'sjourney, using modern film and music
as examples. Can't wait to getinto this conversation. The journey
began with a cosmic giggle ofsynchronicity and focused on cultivating
(01:48):
self awareness through dreams,psychic psychedelic experiences and
synchronicity. Since then,Thomas has dedicated himself to helping
others who have experiencedsimilar losses. He spent three years
as a group facilitator, alocal mental health facility and
host two mental healthpodcasts focused on healing, inner
monologue and stages. Recentlyhe published his book 2012 A Bicycle
(02:13):
Odyssey, which chronicles hiscross country adventure and the lessons
he learned along the way.Welcome to show Thomas.
Thank you for having me,Michael. I'm. It's great. I'm grateful
to be here.
You know what?
I.
What a journey that you havebeen on. A journey. The journey you
took in itself is amazing, buta journey in healing on top of that,
(02:37):
I think is a really a, Atestament to the tenacity and the
fortitude of an individual.
Yeah, I mean, I, I appreciatethat. I, I think it is important.
Nobody, nobody here gets outunscathed. That's a, it's a quote
(02:57):
from A recent. A newtelevision show about therapy on
Apple TV called Shrinking.Harrison Ford is. Harrison Ford says
that. And it's just like themost. The truest, like, statement.
Everybody, everybody's gonnahave scars, everybody's gonna have
traumas, and, and, and they'regonna have to deal with grief. That's,
(03:18):
That's a part of existing, thepart of living. I also, like, think
that, like, those. When it's.What I'm about to say is a very privileged
statement. But, you know, ifyou are in that state of privilege
to have been able to, like,step away or, or process your grief
(03:41):
enough where you're able totake a step back and view it as an
event that happened ratherthan a thing that happened to me
that you, you have the. Youhave the. You come to a fork in the
road and, like, one is like,well, am I going to be a victim of
this thing or am I going to bea student of it? And how do I. How
(04:04):
do I. How do I. What. What'sthe purpose? Because to me, I, I
think, you know, it'simportant that human beings create
meaning and purpose. Some,Some people need it created for them.
I think that it's importantfor us to create our own. And, you
know, when you experiencesomething, whenever something stressful
(04:25):
happens, I always try to. Onefoot isn't like, damn it. And the
other foot is in. All right,what's the purpose? Because it's
important to feel. It'simportant to allow yourself to feel.
It's important to, to allowyourself to go through the. The spectrum
of emotions about any givensituation. But it's also important
(04:50):
to realize that this is anopportunity for you to, to grow and
evolve and expand yourawareness, which I think is the most
important game in town. Theonly game in town is. Is the expansion
of one's awareness.
I agree with it 100%. And wehave so much in common. Shrinking
(05:12):
is the fantastic opportunityfor us to really kind of get a little
bit of therapy for free.
Yeah, yeah. And totally. Andto be honest with you, like, I, I
got a co worker that's finallygoing through TED Lasso. And so now
I'm watching it again for,like, my fourth round. Like, TED
Lasso is, like, really, reallyan important television show for
(05:34):
me. We are given goals atwork. I, I work in a library, which
I think is, like, one of themost important, least appreciated,
and will probably one of themost important elements of our society.
It's the last free space whereyou can go without the expectation
of spending money. And we getall Types of people. Mostly. Mostly.
(06:00):
Mostly the individuals that,you know, are. Are. Are in the most
danger in life. The peoplethat are suffering the most. And
so, like Ted Lasso. When Iwatched the first season, I. We.
We were doing a goal. All ofus, all the supervisors. I'm a supervisor.
We're doing a goal onleadership. And I asked if I could
(06:23):
do an extensive deep dive onthe leadership capabilities and qualities
of Ted Lasso and how to applythem to my position, how to apply
them to my department, and howto apply them in life. My. My. My
supervisor, she was like,yeah, like, let's see what you can
(06:43):
get out of that. And she wasblown away.
That's great. That's. That'sawesome. That's awesome. I know.
I know a writer, Ted Lasso.So, yeah, I'll have to make sure
you understand. He knows that.That's really.
Yeah, it's. It's one of themost wholesome and important shows
(07:04):
that I've seen in a long time.And to be honest with you, if I.
I'm. I like to cry, butsometimes I have difficulty crying.
I've. I've cried a lot, andmaybe I'm out of tears, but when
I really need to force myselfto cry, there's a conversation. At
the end of season two, it's.Ted is finally talking to the therapist,
(07:28):
and it's a juxtapositionbetween the story that he's telling
and the story that Rebecca istelling her mother at her father's
funeral. And when I need tocry, I'll go and I'll watch that.
I don't want to give anyspoilers away, but Ted and I, the
fictional character of TedLasso and I have a little bit in
(07:48):
common.
Oh, that's pretty cool. I'mgonna go back and check that out.
Just.
Yeah.
Yes, we do.
I think it's like episode.It's. It's the funeral episode in
season two.
I can check that out.
You'll know when you see it.
Big, huge Ted Lasso. In fact,my wife and I did a show. We do an
(08:08):
over the Teacup on Sundaysjust to kind of lighten the mood.
And we did a show all aboutTed Lasso, and we did another one
about shrinking, and we lovehim, the whole aspect of it. So,
anyway, back to business. Backto business. I was like, start at
the beginning. Where'd yougrow up? What was your family like?
I grew up in South Scottsdale,Arizona, and I do preference Scottsdale
(08:34):
because there isn't the SouthScottsdale because there's A difference
between South Scottsdale andNorth Scottsdale. I grew up right
next to the Tempe border,probably about three miles, five
miles from Arizona StateUniversity. My family was really
basic and I don't say that ina, in a, in a derogatory tone. We
(08:59):
typical middle class family,didn't really need to want for anything.
It was just my mom, my, mydad, my brother and I, and my, my
grandparents on my, my dad'sside that lived out here wasn't like
a really, really big family.Most of the family was back east.
But like, we had food on thetable, we had roof above our head,
(09:21):
we had clothing on our back.We were taken care of. There was
probably like, I would say,like one of the things that became
my cross to bear, especiallyafter high school when I became aware
of this is my codependencyissues. And I definitely got those,
those from my parents. Myparents were very codependent upon
(09:43):
each other. They didn't liketo be separated for very long. They
both were, would get reallysad. They're very clingy. And growing
up I never saw anything thatwas wrong with that. And if that
was the way, if that is whatbrought them joy, I'm happy for them.
And, and it did bring themjoy. But for me, as it wasn't the
(10:06):
best example, I didn't have alot of agency as I became a young
man. And I think a lot of thatjust came from growing up in the
clutches between twocodependent parents and just be developing
codependency on my, on my own.So my brother was the golden child
(10:28):
of the family. He was muchmore sophisticated minded than my
parents. My parents grew up ina simpler time. And when I say that
I, I'm referring more totechnology. And they had two, they
were raising two young men ina much bigger city than where they
grew up in a time wheretechnology was just beginning its
(10:51):
explosion with computers,video games, cell phones and stuff
like that. So you know, theydid the best that they could in the
circumstances notunderstanding the, the world that
they were raising two childrenin. So my brother being much more
sophisticated minded, once herealized that, he kind of took over
(11:14):
the family dynamic, which wasalso something else that I saw and
recognized in later years wasinappropriate for my parents to kind
of like submit that power totheir youngest when he was like in
his 20s. So. And it, thatcreated a lot of stress between my
brother and I when we werelike, once I graduated from.
(11:36):
High school, yeah, it was onlyyou and only you and your brother.
No sisters or Anything.
Yeah, just, just my brotherMark and.
I, I mean it, it'sinteresting. How, how did that impact
that, your relationship withyour brother, how did that impact
your life? In, in, in a way that.
Well, at first it wasn't likethe biggest deal because I could
(11:57):
take advantage of it becausemy brother loved me and we played
a lot of B. I playedbasketball in high school and we
were both like movie nerdstoo. So he would take me, you know,
now they have you go and see amovie that's supposed to come out
on Friday. There's a 7 o'clockshowing on Thursday night and you
could buy, you could orderyour tickets ahead of time and you
could buy the seat back in the80s and 90s, you know, you had to
(12:20):
wait in line.
Yeah.
And, and any big blockbustermovie, if it was premiering the day
before it's advertised, it wasactually more at midnight. So my
brother would take me to thosemidnight movies when I was, you know,
under the age of 16. Myparents were cool with that and I
would go with him and hisfriends in the summertime or if we
(12:43):
had, if I had a Friday off, myparents would, my parents would let
me him take me on a Thursdaymidnight movie during the school
year. But as we got older, mybrother's heart was broken. After
he is a few years after hegraduated from high school and rather
than growing from thatexperience in a positive way, he
(13:05):
decided that he was nevergoing to be have let a woman break
his heart ever again. So hebecame a womanizer. And this is where
it really started to affect mebecause as I was graduating high
school, he started dating oneof my friends and my brother was,
was six years older than meand he was also dating his longtime
(13:28):
girlfriend who eventuallyafter high school became my boss.
So I'm stuck in between thefact that like my brother's dating
my friend that was like histrophy girl and then he was dating
this other woman which was myboss, which was like his heart. And
then he had all these otherconquests in between and I just didn't
(13:49):
want to be involved. I justdidn't want to be involved with it.
I was like that, like, likethis is too confusing. Like you maybe
you can catch up and you cankeep up, but it's the, to your advantage
to keep everything straight.It, it's not my job to do that and
I plus I don't really agreewith what you're doing. And at that
time I was experimenting with,you know, mind altering substances,
(14:16):
dipped my toe into thecannabis and my Brother didn't like
that. And so he was. He wasunfaithful to his partners, to both
of them, creating this warpedreality, using their own denial against
them. And anybody who didn'twant that wouldn't participate in
(14:39):
the web he was weaving. Hewould. He would not only disown,
but he would work againstthem. So because I wouldn't work,
I wouldn't lie for my brother.We all worked for, like, the same
organization. He tr. He woulddo everything he could to kind of
like bowed mouth, badmouth myreputation. I mean, I wasn't doing
(15:04):
a good job with my reputationbecause I was a young kid, and I
just didn't care. And I hadthis rebellious streak in me, but
he didn't help either. And sothere was a strain between us from
the time I was about 19 till Iwas 24 when he died. We had a few
months, about six monthsbefore he died, where he was making
(15:28):
the effort to rebuild thebridge. And that was probably the
closest we had been in what Iwould at that time call my adult
life.
What kind of an impact did hisloss, his loss have on your life?
Because I. I have a youngerbrother, so I understand that brother
mentality. I understand thatwe fought, we loved each other, but
(15:53):
we also had our differences,and he took a different path than
I took. So I understand thatdynamic. I do. But I think that even
with that, the loss of mybrother would be devastating, I think.
So how did his loss. How. Whatkind of impact they have on your
(16:13):
life?
It has different moments ofimpact from time to time. At the
time, as much, you know, wehad been disconnected for years.
For years. Like, almost close,four or five years. And we just had
(16:34):
that six months. So I stillwas more used to life without him
than with him. And it took mea while before I even really delved
into, like, my own grief.Like, I had moments where I would
cry because I would feel andI'd be sad, but I was really. I didn't
(16:58):
have the tools to, like,manage my own life, let alone manage
my parents. And that was kindof like the decision that I made
that, like, I can't imaginewhat it's like for two people to
lose a child. And I saw how itbro. Emotionally broke my father.
My mom bounces back, but shestill allows, you know, she still
(17:21):
feels things. She still feltthings, like, tremendously. She had
a much better. She's always.She was always much better articulating
her emotions than my fatherhas ever done. And it's not because
he. He doesn't Know how heknows how he just doesn't know how
(17:44):
to put string the wordstogether. My, My dad is kind of got
like a little bit of ForrestGump in him. Definitely undiagnosed
learning disorder, you know,but that's what happens when you
grow up in a small town,Wellington, Kansas, in the, in the
40s and 50s, you know, so shejust had a better time. Yeah, she
(18:06):
just had a better time ofarticulating. My dad kind of creates
his own language, and onceyou. It takes you a little bit of
extra effort to pin the wordstogether and, and for. And help him
form his idea, he's verygrateful when he, when he has somebody
patient to help him with that.But, yeah, my mom was just always
(18:27):
good and I just, I was, I wasmore upset. I, I was upset with my
brother. I wasn't mad at him.A lot of people can be angry at people
that they lose to suicide. Isaw the pain that he was in those
six months before he died, andI also saw the pain that my parents
were in. And I wanted to do mybest to try to keep the family together,
(18:50):
though I was unable to keep myown life together. So it caught up
to me about six, seven yearslater, which is when I found therapy.
But it finally caught up tome. And the reason why my brother
was in such despair for thoselast six months is that, like, those
two women finally got sick ofhis charade and they left him at
(19:11):
the same time. And, you know,in order to sell a lie, you gotta
believe a lie. And when theyleft that, his belief in that lie
just crumbled. And he didn'thave any true foundation to help
him navigate who he is as anindividual. He just had his, his,
this fake lifestyle and thisfake perception, and that was all
(19:35):
taken away from him. And hedidn't know how to handle it because
he didn't have any tools.
Either to be able to do it.Yeah, it's, you know, it. I think
we as individuals and myparents were both dysfunctional as
well. They were bothalcoholics and had their own issues
with depression and stuff in.At the same time, in the environment
(19:55):
that they grew up in. Youdidn't talk about depression, you
didn't talk about anger, youdidn't talk about being sad. You
know, you're supposed to behappy and jovial all the time. And
as opposed to anything thatwould cross the line, you had to
suppress. You weren't allowedto do that. Men were not allowed
to cry. You had to be the man,step up and be the man. Kind of a
(20:18):
thing. And some of the thingsthat took my. Which I didn't find
out until later myself, someof the things that happened in my
parents life, I didn't findout until way later as an adult,
not just as a teenager, butdidn't find out till way the hell
later. Like when I was in my30s, 40s and 50s. I won't go past
(20:39):
that to give away my. So, youknow, it is interesting when you
grow up in a dysfunctionalfamily. Not saying that you're from
there, but when you grow up ina dysfunctional family like this.
It's what inspired me to be acop actually, because I felt that
if I get into an environmentwhere I can help other people that
were in the same position. Iworked domestic violence for a task
(21:01):
force for a long time and Iworked DUI task force for a long
time. I chose the assignmentsthat I felt I could best make an
impact on what I experiencedin my childhood. So my brother took
a different path. I think weall do that in life and sometimes
we create an environmentaround us that might not be a complete
(21:22):
reality. Did, did I mean, didyour brother have any, any diagnosed
like depression or anxiety oranything along that line that would
have contributed to his.
No. I think I was the onlyoutlier at that time within my brother's
group and my, my friend'sgroup that I was like open. Open
(21:44):
about my emotions and beinglike a crier and allowing myself
space to cry and talking aboutmy feelings. My friends were always
good with like allowing me thespace to do so. But you know, you,
you, you know, I think backback in that time period, I still
wouldn't say that I wasdepressed in that I now looking back,
(22:08):
like, yeah, I was totallydepressed. I had a lot of anxiety
in high school. I didn't feelcomfortable in my own skin. And for
me, like the first real thingthat like I was always like an emotional,
creative person and always,you know, looked at things a little
bit differently than my peersfrom like elementary school, middle
(22:29):
school, and even high school.And like my first bout with like
true heartache by losing, youknow, a partner that I had been with
for a long time just because,you know, we were young and she took
a different path like thatthat messed me up a lot and that
only added to my anxiety and,and my codependency issues exasperated
(22:54):
them. But you know, I wouldtalk about these things, but I wouldn't,
I didn't think, I, I didn'tknow what. Like just the concept
of going to therapy. I Waslike, I got my friends. They'll help
me, you know, but that's.That's just, like, exhausting for
them. And it's good to, like,have somebody who's been trained,
you know? You're not going totake. You're not going to. Just.
(23:15):
Because if somebody's yourfriend, if they're not a mechanic,
you're not going to give themyour car to look at, you know, to
do an oil change or to go inand do some. Some proper maintenance
just because they're yourfriend, you know, they could be a
desk jockey, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. I tidied up theinside of your car, and the dashboard
looks great. Right. Iorganized everything in your console
(23:38):
and your. In your glove box iswhat we did. But did you change the
oil? No. Don't know how to dothat one. What. What had. Did anybody
notice any signs or symptomsbefore your brother took his life?
(24:01):
Okay, so being in the timeperiod that, you know, I was the
only one expressing myfeelings and. And it's. Men were
still. It wasn't, you know, athing for men to express themselves
in that way, especially ifthey weren't, like, an artist. My
brother couldn't come to termsand say that he was sad. He needed,
(24:22):
like, a physical reason forwhy he lost the weight, why he was
down in the dumps. It wasn'tbecause these ladies left him. It's
because he had cancer and hewas dying. So he created this secondary
illusion to explain away hisheartache and. And. And physical
(24:45):
change. I didn't really buyit, but I wanted. I was just like,
I'm glad we're connecting. Youknow, I'm not. I'm not gonna throw.
This is definitely a lifeline.I didn't know those terms back then,
but I knew that, like, I waslike, this sounds a little sketchy,
(25:06):
but he's reaching out, so I'mgonna just take that. It's. It's
nice to have a connection withmy brother again. There's other people
that were just like, nope. AndI didn't have those conversations
with those people because itwas like his ex girlfriend until
after the funeral. But I waslike, yeah, I got you. I feel you.
(25:31):
So, yeah, I was. It was. Therewere signs. He had his. He was very
depressed, but it was because,you know, the two women left him.
But he never. He didn't have,like, he couldn't. He couldn't come
out and say he was depressed.He had to fabricate something else.
And he's like, well, I'mtaking care of It. I'm going to the
(25:52):
doctors. I don't want anybodycoming with me when I go to get my
chemo. And he was already,like, bald anyways, so I think he,
like, might have like, even,like, shaved his eyebrows to, like,
you know what I mean? It wasjust like. And didn't have a beard,
so it was just. Yeah, it was.It was. It was just like this bizarre
behavior of. Of. Of. Yeah, itwas just very, very bizarre behavior
(26:21):
of just not. Not being ableto, like, just admit that you. That
you're sad. You know, that'sall it comes down to. And he was.
He was too proud and. And, youknow, always having to be like, you
said, like, I'm a man, I'mstrong, and I don't. I don't care.
A lot of the guys that would.That I hung out with, you know, they
(26:46):
were open to my emotions. Butthere's only, like, one of them that
I know that is, like, eventhough he was in the military, he
was in the Marines, he wasvery accepting of my emotions. He
was very, like, comforting ofmy emotions. But he's, like, the
only one that I know that nowoutwardly expresses, like, his softer
side, you know? And I think,like, men who say that, you know,
(27:10):
emotions isn't for men. Justgo to any sporting bar on a Sunday,
you know, you're going to seetwo expressions, either extreme joy
or. Or extreme, like, despair,depending on, like, what the score
of the game at the end of thegame is for the team that you're
supporting. But, like, there'sso much. There's so many more levels
(27:30):
within the spectrum ofemotion. And it's okay for you to
express those. Yeah, like, you know.
Yeah. Yeah, that's. That. Whata good analogy. Got a good opportunity
for. Yes. That's crazy. What.Have you always. Let me ask you this.
Have you always been abicyclist? Have you always ridden
a bike?
No. No. I mean, you know, Ilive right next to. And you might
(27:55):
be familiar with this. Thereis a beautiful bike path in Scottsdale
that now goes all the way downinto Tempe and goes pretty far north
into Scottsdale. It'sconnected to something that the city
of Scottsdale created, therecreation and development planning
(28:17):
created. We had a wash, sowhenever it rains, like, the flood
waters go through there. Theyturned it into the park system. So
we have this fabulous greenbelt. We have this fabulous green
belt, and it's right in mybackyard. So when I was a kid, I
(28:38):
would drive up, up and down. Iwould ride up and down the green
belt all the time. And wewould go like, as we'd probably like,
go only about 10 miles north.It wasn't connected to ASU at that
time, but once I got a littlebit older, yeah, I was, I had a car.
I would drive to the gym or Iwould go jogging. I would do a lot
(28:59):
of jogging and do stuff likethat. It wasn't until, like, I had
done a walk across the countryin 2006 with my parents church. They're
very progressive church. I amnot a Christian. I don't, I don't
have any, like, religiousbackground. I, I'm a big into mythology
(29:20):
and I love philosophy and Ilove the poetry and religion and
the stories, but I look atthem more from like, a mythological
tone. But I went, I reallyresonated with like, the mission
of my parents church. So Iwalked across the country with them
and it was both the all I waskind of like, became the intern or
the sidekick for the filmmakerthat was following them. So it was
(29:43):
like film school on the roadand theology on the road. And this
was in 2006, a few years aftermy brother died. This was kind of
like the first step in metrying to like, heal myself of, like,
doing something radicallydifferent from hanging out with my
friends and doing drugs. Idecided to go hang out with Christians
and learn about wine and, andChristian theology and film and how
(30:05):
to, how to produce stuff likethat. So when we first had the idea
for the bike ride, I, I, Itold Zach, I was like, let's, let's
walk across the country.Because I told him this story about
walking, and he was like, Iwould totally do that, but I wouldn't,
I wouldn't do it by foot. Iwould do it by bicycle. And in my,
(30:26):
and in my mind, I was like,you could travel more distance in
a day on a bicycle than youcould by foot, so let's go twice
as far. Which is, there's nologic in that kind of thinking. It
was just like, oh, let's goexplore as much as we can. And it
was just during thatconversation of like, you know, riding
(30:46):
our bikes for our brothers andlearning from other people that it
kind of started with metalking about this, this walk I did
in 2006, and then it, itmorphed into the bike ride itself.
So, yeah, I didn't, I, I, Ididn't, I didn't do like, a lot of
cycling once I got a license.And, and I'm, I kind of look back
(31:16):
in those days of like, placesthat I've Lived and how much fun
having a bicycle is, even asan adult, even if you do have a license
in a car. I really appreciate,like, I learned a lot. Not only did
I learn a lot about myself onthe bike ride, but I. I reignited
this old passion of childhoodof, of being on a bicycle and just
(31:39):
exploring. And to me, like,cycling is also like a really powerful
kind of like, meditationbecause it forces you to ride the
line of being, like,completely detached while also being
hyper focused because youdon't want to hurt anybody, you don't
want to hurt yourself, but youalso have the ability to lose yourself
from just the flow and rhythmof cycling.
(32:03):
So that journey, apparentlyfrom San Francisco to, and I may
be mispronouncing this, is itWappinger or Wappinger?
Wappinger's.
Wappinger. So that journeyfrom San Francisco to Wappingers,
it kind of changed youpersonally and emotionally. It sounds
to me like you were able tokind of grow a little bit from that.
It changed me on so manylevels. I think it really, like,
(32:28):
my codependency was shatteredin that I've always been like, a
big nerd. I used to collectfigures, and then when my brother
died, that's probably like,the first thing that I gave up was,
like, figures and comic booksand I, I collect figures again. Um,
(32:48):
I, I ride bicycle, my bicyclea little bit more. I don't do it
as much as I did on that bikeride, but I'll. I'll go for a ride,
you know, around the block. Ithink more than anything, like, it
taught me what I was capableof. Like, I did probably 95% of the
organizing for the bike ride,the cold calling of all the different
(33:15):
crisis centers that we had tocall and, and just to, like, try
to, like, organize events andspeaking engagements so that we can
have time to talk with the,the communities that we were riding
through. Like, it took 13. Ittook about 12 and a half months to
organize before we even got onthe bicycle and, and started riding.
(33:38):
So it was a. It was a really,really, really big thing. It was
a really big undertaking. And,you know, I would say that, like,
the walk across the country in2006 was a way for me to, like, kind
of detach myself from some ofthe negative people that I was hanging
out with due to mycodependence, like, behavior, but
it wasn't so, like, myprofessional life and like, like,
(34:00):
my ability to follow my. Mypassion was one thing that I was
starting to develop on my ownby, by stepping out into the world
for the first time. But itwasn't until 2008 that I, that I
realized I needed a little bitmore help psychologically and emotionally.
So that's when I found atherapist. And it was through the
(34:21):
therapy that I think I, I, Idon't without the therapy and without,
which is, was really likewhere I, I started to get into the
importance of self awareness.I wouldn't have the gumption or the
fortitude to come up with anidea to ride my bike across the country,
(34:41):
you know, so I, I really, theprocess kind of like started in 2008
and you know, the bike ridewas like, that was the initiation.
Like the initiation is ajourney that you go on. The trials
are the tests. And if, if mytherapy was the initiation and the
(35:04):
journey of self discovery, thebike ride, in every single moment
of pain, frustration andanxiety were the trials that I was
tested to see how much I wasactually learning through my initiation.
(35:24):
So I, yeah, like the, the bikeride completely changed my life.
It could radically change myperspective of on life. And I take
those lessons as much as I caninto every aspect of my life. For
the longest time I was justlike, I'm an artist who happens to
(35:44):
have a job to pay for myexistence. Because when I came back
from the bike ride it was allabout the book. I just wanted to
write the book intentionally.Initially it was going to be a documentary.
I, I was in film school and,and so I had, I loved video, I loved,
(36:06):
I love, I loved stillphotography, I love motion photography,
I love the art of filmmaking,I love watching films, I love the
stories, doc narratives forfiction and non fiction tales. And
so I wanted to bring, I wantedto do a documentary and I knew pretty
(36:26):
quick that unless I hadsomebody else there to do all the
filming, it was going to be animpossible feat. So I, I realized
pretty early on that it wasgoing to be a book and not a film.
But I still shot a lot offootage. I recorded a lot of interviews,
(36:50):
shot footage of just theenvironment and I used all that footage
to remind me and keep my mindfresh about the book or about the
experience when writing thebook. Because it took me 12 years
to write the book. Writing wasnever one of my fortes. It was never
one of my, it was somethingthat I always like to do. I like
(37:12):
the idea of, of writing. Iwasn't very, I didn't have the best
grammar and I was teased a lotfor how bad my spelling was and my
grammar so that I just kind oflike, I stopped trying with riding
and it wasn't until, like, Igot back from the bike ride that
I decided to climb thatmountain and face that dragon. And
(37:36):
I'm really, really, reallyproud of. Of what I put together.
I hope the next book doesn'ttake 12 years. That would be nice.
But I think it really took mea while to find my voice, right,
and how I wanted tocommunicate my story to the world,
(37:57):
and that was really, reallyimportant. So, yeah, the bike ride
completely opened me up andradically changed my life, just from
the simple fact that I testedmy metal and it showed me what I
was capable of. You're, like,right now, if there's something that
(38:19):
I really want to do, like, ifI really want to do, I have a lot
of ideas. I have a lot ofideas. But if it's something that
I really want to do, you'llknow, because I won't be able to
shut up about it. So those arethe things that, like, I'm just gonna.
I'm gonna do that thing I'mgonna take, and I'm gonna take my
time doing it. And right now,a lot of that stuff is kind of, like,
(38:45):
found its way. Those ideashave found them way. Their. Their
way into the medium ofpodcasting and more, most importantly,
writing. Like, I reallyappreciate that I found a way to
ignore the naysayers and thepeople who teased me and just found
a way. It was an ugly journeyof writing the book and finding sentence
(39:09):
structure and learning how tostring words together to create a
sentence that really, reallyconveys how I feel about something.
I think that's the one thingthat's, like, really wild, is that,
you know, men really only liketo, like, deal with, like, the extremes
of despair or happiness, andthere's all these other emotions
(39:33):
in between that on thespectrum. But I truly believe that
there are emotions that wehave that we. We have not. We don't
have words for yet. And that'swhy poetry exists, you know, because
we need to express thefeeling. So we, you know, we have
metaphor and poetry to. To. Totry to describe and convey to another
(39:55):
person how. Why you feel theway that you feel or how you feel.
I agree with that, and I cancontribute to that along with that
medium. You have. You havedance. You have. Because you have
expressive dance. Peopleexpress themselves in dance, in music,
and in art as well. You know,the whole creative arts feel field,
I believe, allows us themethodology for communicating in
(40:19):
the ways that we may not beable to do in a. In a. Like, a more
societal way. It's done in Away that it allows us to be able
to express ourselves throughdance or express ourselves through
music, express ourselvesthrough art and be able to get a
message conveyed. How do youfeel that the role of art in, in
(40:41):
your healing process? Did art,the creative arts, help you in your
healing process and copingwith your grief?
Yeah. Both as a creator and anaudience member. Like I was more
two left feet. So watchingpeople dance, I appreciate people
that can dance. I love, I lovestand up comedy. I love spoken word,
(41:04):
I love music, I love, I lovelyrical music, I love atmospheric
music. I love watching moviesand television shows. And I'm a really,
I really, I dig, I digmonologues. You know, I just, I just
like, I love doodlers. Like,my partner is a painter. She's got
(41:28):
one to the right of me andthen one right behind me, like a
couple right behind me andthey're all around me, but they're
not on the screen. But yeah.My partner is a painter and an illustrator.
And I just like, I love alltype, all forms of creativity, of
creative expression. Likeanybody that says that they're not
(41:49):
creative, I'm just like,hogwash. You know, how you live your
life can be a creativeperformance, you know.
Absolutely.
It could be, it could be acreative act. Think that's what we
are all kind of like here, youknow, whether there is some mighty,
you know, being out there thatcreated us. To me, creativity is
(42:16):
the ultimate form. Like evenin problem solving, you have to kind
of put yourself in a creativespace if it's a novel experience
that you're, that, that likeyou're, you're, you're interacting
with. Creativity is what helpsyou solve the problem. You know,
it doesn't matter if it's likemathematics or it's fit science.
(42:39):
You have to be able to look atsomething and be like, well, what
if I put this, take this andput this over here. Like that's like,
that's, that's like thecreative muscle in process. So we
all like creativity is fartranscends far beyond what, what
(43:00):
people think is art andcreativity. And to even go further,
like, I think that a societythat doesn't appreciate the arts
is a society that's ondecline. Artist arts and, and artistic
expression is like one of themost important aspects of the human
(43:20):
condition. One of my favoritequotes comes from a psychedelic,
a psychedelic philosopher.He's not here anymore. He had some
wacky ideas. But there's thisone quote that I always, I always
appreciated it. And thephilosopher's name is Terence McKenna.
(43:40):
He said art's task is to savethe soul of mankind. And anything
less is a dithering while Romeburns. For it is the artists who
are self selected to journeyinto the other. So if the artist
cannot find the way, then theway cannot be found.
That's very profound actually.
I love that. That quote hasstuck with me like ever since I,
(44:02):
I heard it in one of hislectures. So I, I'm a big fan of
art. Whenever I see somebodythat has like even like if, if it's
all, if it's only for you.Yeah, I think that's, that's, that's
brilliant and beautiful. LikeI, I look at that. There's a, there's
a, there is more than. When itcomes to audience and artist relationship.
(44:28):
There's, there are two typesof transactions that are happening.
You obviously, you have themonetary one so that you can, you
know, be an audience member.But I think there's this other transaction
that's more of energetic thatis happening and that is the energy
of inspiration. I'm kind of ananti influencer I think. I, I mean
(44:51):
language is important and whenwe look at what the, like influencers
can't exist unless they havean audience that is easily influenced.
You know, which isn't a veryempowering, empowering energy to
display as an audience member.Remember inspiration on is, is, is
(45:12):
something entirely different,different than influence if you're
being inspired by somebody todo or to do something of yourself.
So it's like the, thetransaction that's happening is that
when you go and you see like apiece of art being performed and
you come out and you've had,you had a lot of feelings about it,
you had a lot of, you know,you were, you've been moved emotionally.
(45:37):
You know, part of that is thislike inspirational currency that
has been trend that's, that'sbeen transferred to you. And the
worst thing you could do is donothing. You know, take that energy
and do something beautiful.Even if it's only for the audience
(45:59):
of self. Like make something,draw something, write something,
dance something, you know,take pictures of things like use
that energy, that inspirationand go and make something beautiful.
Because even if, if you, ifyou put it in a public space and
even if you don't have thatbig of a following, you don't know
(46:21):
who you're inspiring. Even ifit's only one person, one person
that you'll never meet andyou'll never know how much they appreciated
what they saw of yours.
I agree with that. That'sbrilliant. It's A way of putting
it. I think you did that withyour book because you have a message
in your book that you hope to convey.
(46:42):
Yeah.
To everyone. So you, you tookit as a written word. I know it was
supposed to be, it started offas a documentary, but you, you do
have the footage for therethat, that's always still a possibility
to piece, you know, piece that together.
Yeah.
But you were able to convey amessage through your writing which,
you know, what, what messagedo you hope to convey? How do you
(47:03):
hope to inspire or motivatepeople that have gone through the
same thing that you and yourfriend went through?
Well, I think the thread is,there's a, there's a couple different
threads that are going throughmy book. I think the mystery when
it comes to, you know, thebanner in which we rode our bike
under is an acronym RISEstands for Revolution Inspired Self
(47:27):
Evolution. Looking back 12years later, 13 years later, 14 years
later, it's the mostpretentious title I've ever laid
eyes on, but I'm going to ownit because essentially Revolution
Inspired self evolution.There's like a, there's like a flow
(47:49):
to it which I appreciate.There's a rhythm to it that I appreciate.
But essentially it means like,you know, if you want to, in order
to make great changeexternally, you have to make great
change internally, you know,be the change you want to see in
the world. And part of that ishaving and cultivating awareness.
So that is like my message ofthe importance of awareness. I, I'm
(48:14):
working on a Follow up to 2012and again, hopefully it won't take
12 years to, to write. I don'tthink it needs to be very long, but
it's kind of like myphilosophical observation on the
importance of the awarenessand how that helps us in our mental
(48:38):
health, how to navigate ourmental health through awareness.
Because the one thing thatI've noticed is that helping a society,
the individuals of the societyof a society cultivate awareness
is not really high on. It'snot really high on the list of, you
(49:05):
know, organizing our society.Foreign we're not taught it in school,
we're not taught it in, in theworkplace. The way that you come
to, I mean a lot of people cancome to like expanding their awareness
on a couple different levels.You're either born with a great sense
of awareness and selfawareness and social awareness and
(49:28):
spatial awareness. You're justkind of like born with it. Other
people like it comes along theway in their journey, but like to
intentionally like create it.That usually happens under two Paths.
And one is you've suffered atrauma and a grief and, and you go,
(49:53):
you, you, you, you finallyrealize that you need some help other
than what your friends andfamily and circle of influence can
provide. So you seek that outin some fashion, some. For me it
was therapy. And then so yougo through this journey of self awareness
for others. It's like assimple as I need a humanities credit
(50:13):
for my major. And so you justwander into a philosophy or mythology
class and have your mind blownfor three months. And then that kind
of like creates this new spacein your consciousness to seek out
your own individualisticpurpose and how to like, understand
(50:33):
yourself and who you are andwhat your place is in this world.
But to me, awareness is theonly game in town. And back in my
early 20s, I used to thinkthat, you know, the reason why the
people in power, you know,don't advocate for, you know, an
(50:53):
individual to cultivate their,their awareness was due to nefarious
purposes. It was back in mytinfoil hat wearing days. Now I think
it just stands, it comes frommore of a place of neglect and ignorance
because you have an entiresociety of, of people that have a
(51:15):
great lacking of awareness,teaching the next generation how
to exist in this world. To me,if you are, if one of your great
skills on this planet isalienating people, there's still
one person that you're stuckwith, and that's you. You're stuck
with. You cradle the grave. Soit's important that you learn who
(51:39):
you are. And when I talk aboutawareness, I think being aware is
to challenge not the, youknow, the truths of reality, but
to challenge every singleinstitution that conditions. So who
(51:59):
are you outside of state? Whoare you outside of lineage? Who are
you outside of faith? Who areyou outside of gender, sexual orientation,
able bodiedness, race? Like,who are you on a fundamental level?
And only you can write thegame plan on how to navigate those
(52:23):
questions. Nobody else can doit for you because you are uniquely
you. And you know, if you'renot trying to figure out who you
are, what you want from life,you're gonna have an entire world
trying to tell you who youare, who you should be and what you
should be trying to do inlife. So to me, awareness is the
(52:44):
only game in town. And I canonly speak for the society in which
I live in, because I've neverlived in any other society. We are
shockingly an unaware culture.And I think that that, that isn't
the only reason why we havesuch horrible mental health and suicidal
(53:07):
epidemic. But it Definitelycontributes to it.
I agree with that. I agreewith that. I think communities, society
in general, and thecommunities that we belong in and
organizations should have abetter opportunity for support for
mental health all the wayaround. I think that it, you know,
in the, in the old days, itwas something you didn't speak about.
(53:29):
Then we started speaking aboutit, but then it's still something
you're not supposed. Supposedto talk about or, you know, if you.
You mention it in any form orany way, you know, then you kind
of, kind of pushed aside alittle bit. So, yeah, I think that
our communities, society ingeneral, the organizations that we
(53:50):
are part of, need a bettersupport system for people with mental
health.
Agreed, Agreed.
I do that.
And just for development.True. Like, true development. Like,
I. If I ever had a legacy,because I'm not gonna have children.
I'm 47, I don't have any. AndI. I mean, working with kids for
16 years is probably like thegreatest birth control I ever had.
(54:13):
I also. Speaking of awareness,I know I'm pretty selfish when it
comes to, like, the thingsthat I like to do. And when you have
a child, it's not about youanymore. It's about them.
And it never stops.
Yeah. Yeah. If there was anylegacy that I would leave behind,
I would hope that I couldsomehow contribute to, you know,
(54:37):
creating a curriculum thatgoes from like first grade to 12th
grade of how to understandyourself, how to navigate yourself,
know why you respond and reactto things in a certain way, and.
And how to expand yourawareness. Because it's not just
(54:57):
self awareness, it's spatialawareness. It's social awareness.
You know, I like, I look atthis meat suit as an avatar. Its
character's name is Thomas.It's. It happens to be Anglo Saxon,
it happens to be heterosexual,and it happens to have been born
(55:20):
and a citizen of the UnitedStates. That's my avatar. Who I am
is not that. What I am is notthat. Thomas is connected to the
ego structure that I feel thatmy true self filters through and
expresses in this world. Andwith social awareness, it's a seed
(55:43):
of people that don't look likeme, that have completely different
upbringings than me, and tryto have an understanding of their
condition in life. And knowingthat because of my filter and because
of my avatar, I may nevertruly understand what it is to live
in their avatar and how theworld sees and sees them. So I think
(56:09):
that true awareness, a truepractice of awareness, not only helps
you create empathy andcompassion for yourself, which is
important, but it also helpsyou to create empathy and compassion
for others. And I think thatwe should always err on with strong
boundaries because you don'twant to let people step on you. But
(56:31):
I think it's all moreimportant to err on the side of empathy
and compassion.
I agree with youwholeheartedly. Profound statement.
I always ask at the end of theshow if there's one more thing and
words of wisdom, and you mayhave just said that, but I'm gonna
ask you.
I got one for you.
(56:51):
Yeah, I'm asking you anyway.Well, we're not there yet. We're
not there yet. Okay, almost.Hold it. Hold that thought. Okay,
let's tell everybody how toget a hold of you, your book and
your brilliant podcast thatyou share as well. So not only are
you doing it in written word,you're inspiring people with vocal
and speech and word as well.
(57:13):
Inner Monologue is more oflike a past project that I still
have available because I thinkthat the majority of the conversations
that I have, that's aconversational interview piece. I
think the. The majority of theconversations is over 300. Maybe
not my opening monologues,because those are more. Those are
more, you know, of the momentwhere the conversations are timely.
(57:36):
Stages is, is a. Is a showthat. It's kind of like more of a
diary. It's something that wasborn out of the. I lost my mom to
cancer back in May of 2023,and I'm the caretaker of my father.
And so it's kind of like justtalking about being middle aged and,
(57:57):
and navigating, you know, whatit's like to be a single child with
an aging parent. And then ofcourse, 2012, a bicycle odyssey.
That's my book about the bikeride across the country. All of these.
The links can be found in our.My website, rise phoenix.org and
(58:18):
I'll make.
Sure that all of those are inthe show notes so people can just,
you know, click it and clickit and get there. You also have an
Instagram which also shows onthe screen, but somebody can find
you on Instagram as well andfollow you.
Yeah, that's all. All mysocial media is also on the website
as well.
Well, this has been an amazingconversation. I wish we could talk
(58:39):
for like another hour. I thinkwe could easily fit so much more
into it. You'll have to comeback and talk again.
I would love to. Thank you.
It's been, this has beenamazing. I appreciate what an amazing
journey that your life hastaken. I think in a very proactive
way. I do have one Question,though. You rode all the way to New
York. Did you, did you writeit back or did you, how'd you get
(59:02):
back?
We had a support vehicle. Oh,it was, it was important to have
a support vehicle because my,my cycling buddy got injured and
we would, we do a lot ofrotating and one person would drive
the support vehicle, the otherperson would ride the bike. He got
injured in Charlotte? No, inChapel Hill, North Carolina. And
(59:27):
I pretty much rode by myself.From Charlotte, from Chapel Hill,
North Carolina, all the wayuntil like the last 50 miles of the
bike ride. So it's a 7,000mile journey, but we both don't have
7,000 miles under our belt. Ihave about 4,000, 4,500 and he's
got about 25 to 3,000.
(59:50):
Wow. That's still amazing.That's still amazing. Kudos for both
of you for doing. Thank youindividuals. Thank you to everyone
that supported you along theway. If you hear this, Yes, I think
that, you know, supergrateful. Yeah, wonderful individuals
to help you along the way.We're at the end. So again, thank
you for being here. Thank youfor being a guest. This is one more
(01:00:13):
thing before you go. Do youhave any words of wisdom you can
share? Know thyself, KnowThyself are brilliant words of wisdom.
Short, sweet, right to thepoint and exactly what we everybody
needs. So, Thomas, again,thank you very much for reaching
out. Thank you very much forcoming on the show. I really appreciate
your journey, what youcontribute to the world. I hope that
(01:00:36):
we've been able to inspire,motivate and educate some people
today.
Ditto.
Ditto is a good word too. Iwill make sure that everything is
in the show notes so that ifthey'll find you in a very easy way
for everyone else out there inthe one more thing before you go
community, thank you very muchfor being part of the community.
(01:00:58):
Please subscribe, follow,remember, write a review and we will
see you next week. One morething before you all go. Have a great
day. Have a great weekend.Thank you for being here. Thanks
for listening to this episodeof One More Thing before you go.
Check out ourwebsite@beforeyougopodcast.com youm
can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
(01:01:19):
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
Hey, one more thing before yougo. Before we dive in, I want to
issue a trigger warning. Thisepisode discusses sensitive topics,
including suicide. So pleasetake care of yourself. Listen to
your own pace. If you orsomeone you know is experiencing
thoughts of self harm orharming others, please reach out
to the national SuicidePrevention lifeline by calling or
texting. 9, 8, 8. How can artand physical activity aid in the
(00:22):
healing process after losing aloved one to suicide? Especially,
what are some of the practicalsteps individuals can take to support
someone who is grieving a lossdue to suicide? In this episode,
we're going to answer thesequestions and many more when we have
a conversation with aremarkable individual that turned
his personal tragedy into amission of hope and healing. I'm
(00:44):
your host, Michael Herst.Welcome to One More Thing before
you go. My guest today isThomas Brown. He's an extraordinary
individual who turned personaltragedy into a mission of hope and
(01:05):
healing. After losing hisbrother to suicide in 2001, Thomas
spent a decade grappling withgrief. We've all been there. In 2012,
he and his friend, who alsolost a brother to suicide, embarked
on a cross country bicycletour to raise awareness about suicide
and the healing power of art.Their journey began at the Golden
Gate Bridge in San Franciscoand ended at the Chapel of Sacred
(01:28):
Mirrors in Wappinger Falls,New York. Hope I said that right.
This adventure honored Thomasbrother and followed the path of
Joseph Campbell's hero'sjourney, using modern film and music
as examples. Can't wait to getinto this conversation. The journey
began with a cosmic giggle ofsynchronicity and focused on cultivating
(01:48):
self awareness through dreams,psychic psychedelic experiences and
synchronicity. Since then,Thomas has dedicated himself to helping
others who have experiencedsimilar losses. He spent three years
as a group facilitator, alocal mental health facility and
host two mental healthpodcasts focused on healing, inner
monologue and stages. Recentlyhe published his book 2012 A Bicycle
(02:13):
Odyssey, which chronicles hiscross country adventure and the lessons
he learned along the way.Welcome to show Thomas.
Thank you for having me,Michael. I'm. It's great. I'm grateful
to be here.
You know what?
I.
What a journey that you havebeen on. A journey. The journey you
took in itself is amazing, buta journey in healing on top of that,
(02:37):
I think is a really a, Atestament to the tenacity and the
fortitude of an individual.
Yeah, I mean, I, I appreciatethat. I, I think it is important.
Nobody, nobody here gets outunscathed. That's a, it's a quote
(02:57):
from A recent. A newtelevision show about therapy on
Apple TV called Shrinking.Harrison Ford is. Harrison Ford says
that. And it's just like themost. The truest, like, statement.
Everybody, everybody's gonnahave scars, everybody's gonna have
traumas, and, and, and they'regonna have to deal with grief. That's,
(03:18):
That's a part of existing, thepart of living. I also, like, think
that, like, those. When it's.What I'm about to say is a very privileged
statement. But, you know, ifyou are in that state of privilege
to have been able to, like,step away or, or process your grief
(03:41):
enough where you're able totake a step back and view it as an
event that happened ratherthan a thing that happened to me
that you, you have the. Youhave the. You come to a fork in the
road and, like, one is like,well, am I going to be a victim of
this thing or am I going to bea student of it? And how do I. How
(04:04):
do I. How do I. What. What'sthe purpose? Because to me, I, I
think, you know, it'simportant that human beings create
meaning and purpose. Some,Some people need it created for them.
I think that it's importantfor us to create our own. And, you
know, when you experiencesomething, whenever something stressful
(04:25):
happens, I always try to. Onefoot isn't like, damn it. And the
other foot is in. All right,what's the purpose? Because it's
important to feel. It'simportant to allow yourself to feel.
It's important to, to allowyourself to go through the. The spectrum
of emotions about any givensituation. But it's also important
(04:50):
to realize that this is anopportunity for you to, to grow and
evolve and expand yourawareness, which I think is the most
important game in town. Theonly game in town is. Is the expansion
of one's awareness.
I agree with it 100%. And wehave so much in common. Shrinking
(05:12):
is the fantastic opportunityfor us to really kind of get a little
bit of therapy for free.
Yeah, yeah. And totally. Andto be honest with you, like, I, I
got a co worker that's finallygoing through TED Lasso. And so now
I'm watching it again for,like, my fourth round. Like, TED
Lasso is, like, really, reallyan important television show for
(05:34):
me. We are given goals atwork. I, I work in a library, which
I think is, like, one of themost important, least appreciated,
and will probably one of themost important elements of our society.
It's the last free space whereyou can go without the expectation
of spending money. And we getall Types of people. Mostly. Mostly.
(06:00):
Mostly the individuals that,you know, are. Are. Are in the most
danger in life. The peoplethat are suffering the most. And
so, like Ted Lasso. When Iwatched the first season, I. We.
We were doing a goal. All ofus, all the supervisors. I'm a supervisor.
We're doing a goal onleadership. And I asked if I could
(06:23):
do an extensive deep dive onthe leadership capabilities and qualities
of Ted Lasso and how to applythem to my position, how to apply
them to my department, and howto apply them in life. My. My. My
supervisor, she was like,yeah, like, let's see what you can
(06:43):
get out of that. And she wasblown away.
That's great. That's. That'sawesome. That's awesome. I know.
I know a writer, Ted Lasso.So, yeah, I'll have to make sure
you understand. He knows that.That's really.
Yeah, it's. It's one of themost wholesome and important shows
(07:04):
that I've seen in a long time.And to be honest with you, if I.
I'm. I like to cry, butsometimes I have difficulty crying.
I've. I've cried a lot, andmaybe I'm out of tears, but when
I really need to force myselfto cry, there's a conversation. At
the end of season two, it's.Ted is finally talking to the therapist,
(07:28):
and it's a juxtapositionbetween the story that he's telling
and the story that Rebecca istelling her mother at her father's
funeral. And when I need tocry, I'll go and I'll watch that.
I don't want to give anyspoilers away, but Ted and I, the
fictional character of TedLasso and I have a little bit in
(07:48):
common.
Oh, that's pretty cool. I'mgonna go back and check that out.
Just.
Yeah.
Yes, we do.
I think it's like episode.It's. It's the funeral episode in
season two.
I can check that out.
You'll know when you see it.
Big, huge Ted Lasso. In fact,my wife and I did a show. We do an
(08:08):
over the Teacup on Sundaysjust to kind of lighten the mood.
And we did a show all aboutTed Lasso, and we did another one
about shrinking, and we lovehim, the whole aspect of it. So,
anyway, back to business. Backto business. I was like, start at
the beginning. Where'd yougrow up? What was your family like?
I grew up in South Scottsdale,Arizona, and I do preference Scottsdale
(08:34):
because there isn't the SouthScottsdale because there's A difference
between South Scottsdale andNorth Scottsdale. I grew up right
next to the Tempe border,probably about three miles, five
miles from Arizona StateUniversity. My family was really
basic and I don't say that ina, in a, in a derogatory tone. We
(08:59):
typical middle class family,didn't really need to want for anything.
It was just my mom, my, mydad, my brother and I, and my, my
grandparents on my, my dad'sside that lived out here wasn't like
a really, really big family.Most of the family was back east.
But like, we had food on thetable, we had roof above our head,
(09:21):
we had clothing on our back.We were taken care of. There was
probably like, I would say,like one of the things that became
my cross to bear, especiallyafter high school when I became aware
of this is my codependencyissues. And I definitely got those,
those from my parents. Myparents were very codependent upon
(09:43):
each other. They didn't liketo be separated for very long. They
both were, would get reallysad. They're very clingy. And growing
up I never saw anything thatwas wrong with that. And if that
was the way, if that is whatbrought them joy, I'm happy for them.
And, and it did bring themjoy. But for me, as it wasn't the
(10:06):
best example, I didn't have alot of agency as I became a young
man. And I think a lot of thatjust came from growing up in the
clutches between twocodependent parents and just be developing
codependency on my, on my own.So my brother was the golden child
(10:28):
of the family. He was muchmore sophisticated minded than my
parents. My parents grew up ina simpler time. And when I say that
I, I'm referring more totechnology. And they had two, they
were raising two young men ina much bigger city than where they
grew up in a time wheretechnology was just beginning its
(10:51):
explosion with computers,video games, cell phones and stuff
like that. So you know, theydid the best that they could in the
circumstances notunderstanding the, the world that
they were raising two childrenin. So my brother being much more
sophisticated minded, once herealized that, he kind of took over
(11:14):
the family dynamic, which wasalso something else that I saw and
recognized in later years wasinappropriate for my parents to kind
of like submit that power totheir youngest when he was like in
his 20s. So. And it, thatcreated a lot of stress between my
brother and I when we werelike, once I graduated from.
(11:36):
High school, yeah, it was onlyyou and only you and your brother.
No sisters or Anything.
Yeah, just, just my brotherMark and.
I, I mean it, it'sinteresting. How, how did that impact
that, your relationship withyour brother, how did that impact
your life? In, in, in a way that.
Well, at first it wasn't likethe biggest deal because I could
(11:57):
take advantage of it becausemy brother loved me and we played
a lot of B. I playedbasketball in high school and we
were both like movie nerdstoo. So he would take me, you know,
now they have you go and see amovie that's supposed to come out
on Friday. There's a 7 o'clockshowing on Thursday night and you
could buy, you could orderyour tickets ahead of time and you
could buy the seat back in the80s and 90s, you know, you had to
(12:20):
wait in line.
Yeah.
And, and any big blockbustermovie, if it was premiering the day
before it's advertised, it wasactually more at midnight. So my
brother would take me to thosemidnight movies when I was, you know,
under the age of 16. Myparents were cool with that and I
would go with him and hisfriends in the summertime or if we
(12:43):
had, if I had a Friday off, myparents would, my parents would let
me him take me on a Thursdaymidnight movie during the school
year. But as we got older, mybrother's heart was broken. After
he is a few years after hegraduated from high school and rather
than growing from thatexperience in a positive way, he
(13:05):
decided that he was nevergoing to be have let a woman break
his heart ever again. So hebecame a womanizer. And this is where
it really started to affect mebecause as I was graduating high
school, he started dating oneof my friends and my brother was,
was six years older than meand he was also dating his longtime
(13:28):
girlfriend who eventuallyafter high school became my boss.
So I'm stuck in between thefact that like my brother's dating
my friend that was like histrophy girl and then he was dating
this other woman which was myboss, which was like his heart. And
then he had all these otherconquests in between and I just didn't
(13:49):
want to be involved. I justdidn't want to be involved with it.
I was like that, like, likethis is too confusing. Like you maybe
you can catch up and you cankeep up, but it's the, to your advantage
to keep everything straight.It, it's not my job to do that and
I plus I don't really agreewith what you're doing. And at that
time I was experimenting with,you know, mind altering substances,
(14:16):
dipped my toe into thecannabis and my Brother didn't like
that. And so he was. He wasunfaithful to his partners, to both
of them, creating this warpedreality, using their own denial against
them. And anybody who didn'twant that wouldn't participate in
(14:39):
the web he was weaving. Hewould. He would not only disown,
but he would work againstthem. So because I wouldn't work,
I wouldn't lie for my brother.We all worked for, like, the same
organization. He tr. He woulddo everything he could to kind of
like bowed mouth, badmouth myreputation. I mean, I wasn't doing
(15:04):
a good job with my reputationbecause I was a young kid, and I
just didn't care. And I hadthis rebellious streak in me, but
he didn't help either. And sothere was a strain between us from
the time I was about 19 till Iwas 24 when he died. We had a few
months, about six monthsbefore he died, where he was making
(15:28):
the effort to rebuild thebridge. And that was probably the
closest we had been in what Iwould at that time call my adult
life.
What kind of an impact did hisloss, his loss have on your life?
Because I. I have a youngerbrother, so I understand that brother
mentality. I understand thatwe fought, we loved each other, but
(15:53):
we also had our differences,and he took a different path than
I took. So I understand thatdynamic. I do. But I think that even
with that, the loss of mybrother would be devastating, I think.
So how did his loss. How. Whatkind of impact they have on your
(16:13):
life?
It has different moments ofimpact from time to time. At the
time, as much, you know, wehad been disconnected for years.
For years. Like, almost close,four or five years. And we just had
(16:34):
that six months. So I stillwas more used to life without him
than with him. And it took mea while before I even really delved
into, like, my own grief.Like, I had moments where I would
cry because I would feel andI'd be sad, but I was really. I didn't
(16:58):
have the tools to, like,manage my own life, let alone manage
my parents. And that was kindof like the decision that I made
that, like, I can't imaginewhat it's like for two people to
lose a child. And I saw how itbro. Emotionally broke my father.
My mom bounces back, but shestill allows, you know, she still
(17:21):
feels things. She still feltthings, like, tremendously. She had
a much better. She's always.She was always much better articulating
her emotions than my fatherhas ever done. And it's not because
he. He doesn't Know how heknows how he just doesn't know how
(17:44):
to put string the wordstogether. My, My dad is kind of got
like a little bit of ForrestGump in him. Definitely undiagnosed
learning disorder, you know,but that's what happens when you
grow up in a small town,Wellington, Kansas, in the, in the
40s and 50s, you know, so shejust had a better time. Yeah, she
(18:06):
just had a better time ofarticulating. My dad kind of creates
his own language, and onceyou. It takes you a little bit of
extra effort to pin the wordstogether and, and for. And help him
form his idea, he's verygrateful when he, when he has somebody
patient to help him with that.But, yeah, my mom was just always
(18:27):
good and I just, I was, I wasmore upset. I, I was upset with my
brother. I wasn't mad at him.A lot of people can be angry at people
that they lose to suicide. Isaw the pain that he was in those
six months before he died, andI also saw the pain that my parents
were in. And I wanted to do mybest to try to keep the family together,
(18:50):
though I was unable to keep myown life together. So it caught up
to me about six, seven yearslater, which is when I found therapy.
But it finally caught up tome. And the reason why my brother
was in such despair for thoselast six months is that, like, those
two women finally got sick ofhis charade and they left him at
(19:11):
the same time. And, you know,in order to sell a lie, you gotta
believe a lie. And when theyleft that, his belief in that lie
just crumbled. And he didn'thave any true foundation to help
him navigate who he is as anindividual. He just had his, his,
this fake lifestyle and thisfake perception, and that was all
(19:35):
taken away from him. And hedidn't know how to handle it because
he didn't have any tools.
Either to be able to do it.Yeah, it's, you know, it. I think
we as individuals and myparents were both dysfunctional as
well. They were bothalcoholics and had their own issues
with depression and stuff in.At the same time, in the environment
(19:55):
that they grew up in. Youdidn't talk about depression, you
didn't talk about anger, youdidn't talk about being sad. You
know, you're supposed to behappy and jovial all the time. And
as opposed to anything thatwould cross the line, you had to
suppress. You weren't allowedto do that. Men were not allowed
to cry. You had to be the man,step up and be the man. Kind of a
(20:18):
thing. And some of the thingsthat took my. Which I didn't find
out until later myself, someof the things that happened in my
parents life, I didn't findout until way later as an adult,
not just as a teenager, butdidn't find out till way the hell
later. Like when I was in my30s, 40s and 50s. I won't go past
(20:39):
that to give away my. So, youknow, it is interesting when you
grow up in a dysfunctionalfamily. Not saying that you're from
there, but when you grow up ina dysfunctional family like this.
It's what inspired me to be acop actually, because I felt that
if I get into an environmentwhere I can help other people that
were in the same position. Iworked domestic violence for a task
(21:01):
force for a long time and Iworked DUI task force for a long
time. I chose the assignmentsthat I felt I could best make an
impact on what I experiencedin my childhood. So my brother took
a different path. I think weall do that in life and sometimes
we create an environmentaround us that might not be a complete
(21:22):
reality. Did, did I mean, didyour brother have any, any diagnosed
like depression or anxiety oranything along that line that would
have contributed to his.
No. I think I was the onlyoutlier at that time within my brother's
group and my, my friend'sgroup that I was like open. Open
(21:44):
about my emotions and beinglike a crier and allowing myself
space to cry and talking aboutmy feelings. My friends were always
good with like allowing me thespace to do so. But you know, you,
you, you know, I think backback in that time period, I still
wouldn't say that I wasdepressed in that I now looking back,
(22:08):
like, yeah, I was totallydepressed. I had a lot of anxiety
in high school. I didn't feelcomfortable in my own skin. And for
me, like the first real thingthat like I was always like an emotional,
creative person and always,you know, looked at things a little
bit differently than my peersfrom like elementary school, middle
(22:29):
school, and even high school.And like my first bout with like
true heartache by losing, youknow, a partner that I had been with
for a long time just because,you know, we were young and she took
a different path like thatthat messed me up a lot and that
only added to my anxiety and,and my codependency issues exasperated
(22:54):
them. But you know, I wouldtalk about these things, but I wouldn't,
I didn't think, I, I didn'tknow what. Like just the concept
of going to therapy. I Waslike, I got my friends. They'll help
me, you know, but that's.That's just, like, exhausting for
them. And it's good to, like,have somebody who's been trained,
you know? You're not going totake. You're not going to. Just.
(23:15):
Because if somebody's yourfriend, if they're not a mechanic,
you're not going to give themyour car to look at, you know, to
do an oil change or to go inand do some. Some proper maintenance
just because they're yourfriend, you know, they could be a
desk jockey, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. I tidied up theinside of your car, and the dashboard
looks great. Right. Iorganized everything in your console
(23:38):
and your. In your glove box iswhat we did. But did you change the
oil? No. Don't know how to dothat one. What. What had. Did anybody
notice any signs or symptomsbefore your brother took his life?
(24:01):
Okay, so being in the timeperiod that, you know, I was the
only one expressing myfeelings and. And it's. Men were
still. It wasn't, you know, athing for men to express themselves
in that way, especially ifthey weren't, like, an artist. My
brother couldn't come to termsand say that he was sad. He needed,
(24:22):
like, a physical reason forwhy he lost the weight, why he was
down in the dumps. It wasn'tbecause these ladies left him. It's
because he had cancer and hewas dying. So he created this secondary
illusion to explain away hisheartache and. And. And physical
(24:45):
change. I didn't really buyit, but I wanted. I was just like,
I'm glad we're connecting. Youknow, I'm not. I'm not gonna throw.
This is definitely a lifeline.I didn't know those terms back then,
but I knew that, like, I waslike, this sounds a little sketchy,
(25:06):
but he's reaching out, so I'mgonna just take that. It's. It's
nice to have a connection withmy brother again. There's other people
that were just like, nope. AndI didn't have those conversations
with those people because itwas like his ex girlfriend until
after the funeral. But I waslike, yeah, I got you. I feel you.
(25:31):
So, yeah, I was. It was. Therewere signs. He had his. He was very
depressed, but it was because,you know, the two women left him.
But he never. He didn't have,like, he couldn't. He couldn't come
out and say he was depressed.He had to fabricate something else.
And he's like, well, I'mtaking care of It. I'm going to the
(25:52):
doctors. I don't want anybodycoming with me when I go to get my
chemo. And he was already,like, bald anyways, so I think he,
like, might have like, even,like, shaved his eyebrows to, like,
you know what I mean? It wasjust like. And didn't have a beard,
so it was just. Yeah, it was.It was. It was just like this bizarre
behavior of. Of. Of. Yeah, itwas just very, very bizarre behavior
(26:21):
of just not. Not being ableto, like, just admit that you. That
you're sad. You know, that'sall it comes down to. And he was.
He was too proud and. And, youknow, always having to be like, you
said, like, I'm a man, I'mstrong, and I don't. I don't care.
A lot of the guys that would.That I hung out with, you know, they
(26:46):
were open to my emotions. Butthere's only, like, one of them that
I know that is, like, eventhough he was in the military, he
was in the Marines, he wasvery accepting of my emotions. He
was very, like, comforting ofmy emotions. But he's, like, the
only one that I know that nowoutwardly expresses, like, his softer
side, you know? And I think,like, men who say that, you know,
(27:10):
emotions isn't for men. Justgo to any sporting bar on a Sunday,
you know, you're going to seetwo expressions, either extreme joy
or. Or extreme, like, despair,depending on, like, what the score
of the game at the end of thegame is for the team that you're
supporting. But, like, there'sso much. There's so many more levels
(27:30):
within the spectrum ofemotion. And it's okay for you to
express those. Yeah, like, you know.
Yeah. Yeah, that's. That. Whata good analogy. Got a good opportunity
for. Yes. That's crazy. What.Have you always. Let me ask you this.
Have you always been abicyclist? Have you always ridden
a bike?
No. No. I mean, you know, Ilive right next to. And you might
(27:55):
be familiar with this. Thereis a beautiful bike path in Scottsdale
that now goes all the way downinto Tempe and goes pretty far north
into Scottsdale. It'sconnected to something that the city
of Scottsdale created, therecreation and development planning
(28:17):
created. We had a wash, sowhenever it rains, like, the flood
waters go through there. Theyturned it into the park system. So
we have this fabulous greenbelt. We have this fabulous green
belt, and it's right in mybackyard. So when I was a kid, I
(28:38):
would drive up, up and down. Iwould ride up and down the green
belt all the time. And wewould go like, as we'd probably like,
go only about 10 miles north.It wasn't connected to ASU at that
time, but once I got a littlebit older, yeah, I was, I had a car.
I would drive to the gym or Iwould go jogging. I would do a lot
(28:59):
of jogging and do stuff likethat. It wasn't until, like, I had
done a walk across the countryin 2006 with my parents church. They're
very progressive church. I amnot a Christian. I don't, I don't
have any, like, religiousbackground. I, I'm a big into mythology
(29:20):
and I love philosophy and Ilove the poetry and religion and
the stories, but I look atthem more from like, a mythological
tone. But I went, I reallyresonated with like, the mission
of my parents church. So Iwalked across the country with them
and it was both the all I waskind of like, became the intern or
the sidekick for the filmmakerthat was following them. So it was
(29:43):
like film school on the roadand theology on the road. And this
was in 2006, a few years aftermy brother died. This was kind of
like the first step in metrying to like, heal myself of, like,
doing something radicallydifferent from hanging out with my
friends and doing drugs. Idecided to go hang out with Christians
and learn about wine and, andChristian theology and film and how
(30:05):
to, how to produce stuff likethat. So when we first had the idea
for the bike ride, I, I, Itold Zach, I was like, let's, let's
walk across the country.Because I told him this story about
walking, and he was like, Iwould totally do that, but I wouldn't,
I wouldn't do it by foot. Iwould do it by bicycle. And in my,
(30:26):
and in my mind, I was like,you could travel more distance in
a day on a bicycle than youcould by foot, so let's go twice
as far. Which is, there's nologic in that kind of thinking. It
was just like, oh, let's goexplore as much as we can. And it
was just during thatconversation of like, you know, riding
(30:46):
our bikes for our brothers andlearning from other people that it
kind of started with metalking about this, this walk I did
in 2006, and then it, itmorphed into the bike ride itself.
So, yeah, I didn't, I, I, Ididn't, I didn't do like, a lot of
cycling once I got a license.And, and I'm, I kind of look back
(31:16):
in those days of like, placesthat I've Lived and how much fun
having a bicycle is, even asan adult, even if you do have a license
in a car. I really appreciate,like, I learned a lot. Not only did
I learn a lot about myself onthe bike ride, but I. I reignited
this old passion of childhoodof, of being on a bicycle and just
(31:39):
exploring. And to me, like,cycling is also like a really powerful
kind of like, meditationbecause it forces you to ride the
line of being, like,completely detached while also being
hyper focused because youdon't want to hurt anybody, you don't
want to hurt yourself, but youalso have the ability to lose yourself
from just the flow and rhythmof cycling.
(32:03):
So that journey, apparentlyfrom San Francisco to, and I may
be mispronouncing this, is itWappinger or Wappinger?
Wappinger's.
Wappinger. So that journeyfrom San Francisco to Wappingers,
it kind of changed youpersonally and emotionally. It sounds
to me like you were able tokind of grow a little bit from that.
It changed me on so manylevels. I think it really, like,
(32:28):
my codependency was shatteredin that I've always been like, a
big nerd. I used to collectfigures, and then when my brother
died, that's probably like,the first thing that I gave up was,
like, figures and comic booksand I, I collect figures again. Um,
(32:48):
I, I ride bicycle, my bicyclea little bit more. I don't do it
as much as I did on that bikeride, but I'll. I'll go for a ride,
you know, around the block. Ithink more than anything, like, it
taught me what I was capableof. Like, I did probably 95% of the
organizing for the bike ride,the cold calling of all the different
(33:15):
crisis centers that we had tocall and, and just to, like, try
to, like, organize events andspeaking engagements so that we can
have time to talk with the,the communities that we were riding
through. Like, it took 13. Ittook about 12 and a half months to
organize before we even got onthe bicycle and, and started riding.
(33:38):
So it was a. It was a really,really, really big thing. It was
a really big undertaking. And,you know, I would say that, like,
the walk across the country in2006 was a way for me to, like, kind
of detach myself from some ofthe negative people that I was hanging
out with due to mycodependence, like, behavior, but
it wasn't so, like, myprofessional life and like, like,
(34:00):
my ability to follow my. Mypassion was one thing that I was
starting to develop on my ownby, by stepping out into the world
for the first time. But itwasn't until 2008 that I, that I
realized I needed a little bitmore help psychologically and emotionally.
So that's when I found atherapist. And it was through the
(34:21):
therapy that I think I, I, Idon't without the therapy and without,
which is, was really likewhere I, I started to get into the
importance of self awareness.I wouldn't have the gumption or the
fortitude to come up with anidea to ride my bike across the country,
(34:41):
you know, so I, I really, theprocess kind of like started in 2008
and you know, the bike ridewas like, that was the initiation.
Like the initiation is ajourney that you go on. The trials
are the tests. And if, if mytherapy was the initiation and the
(35:04):
journey of self discovery, thebike ride, in every single moment
of pain, frustration andanxiety were the trials that I was
tested to see how much I wasactually learning through my initiation.
(35:24):
So I, yeah, like the, the bikeride completely changed my life.
It could radically change myperspective of on life. And I take
those lessons as much as I caninto every aspect of my life. For
the longest time I was justlike, I'm an artist who happens to
(35:44):
have a job to pay for myexistence. Because when I came back
from the bike ride it was allabout the book. I just wanted to
write the book intentionally.Initially it was going to be a documentary.
I, I was in film school and,and so I had, I loved video, I loved,
(36:06):
I love, I loved stillphotography, I love motion photography,
I love the art of filmmaking,I love watching films, I love the
stories, doc narratives forfiction and non fiction tales. And
so I wanted to bring, I wantedto do a documentary and I knew pretty
(36:26):
quick that unless I hadsomebody else there to do all the
filming, it was going to be animpossible feat. So I, I realized
pretty early on that it wasgoing to be a book and not a film.
But I still shot a lot offootage. I recorded a lot of interviews,
(36:50):
shot footage of just theenvironment and I used all that footage
to remind me and keep my mindfresh about the book or about the
experience when writing thebook. Because it took me 12 years
to write the book. Writing wasnever one of my fortes. It was never
one of my, it was somethingthat I always like to do. I like
(37:12):
the idea of, of writing. Iwasn't very, I didn't have the best
grammar and I was teased a lotfor how bad my spelling was and my
grammar so that I just kind oflike, I stopped trying with riding
and it wasn't until, like, Igot back from the bike ride that
I decided to climb thatmountain and face that dragon. And
(37:36):
I'm really, really, reallyproud of. Of what I put together.
I hope the next book doesn'ttake 12 years. That would be nice.
But I think it really took mea while to find my voice, right,
and how I wanted tocommunicate my story to the world,
(37:57):
and that was really, reallyimportant. So, yeah, the bike ride
completely opened me up andradically changed my life, just from
the simple fact that I testedmy metal and it showed me what I
was capable of. You're, like,right now, if there's something that
(38:19):
I really want to do, like, ifI really want to do, I have a lot
of ideas. I have a lot ofideas. But if it's something that
I really want to do, you'llknow, because I won't be able to
shut up about it. So those arethe things that, like, I'm just gonna.
I'm gonna do that thing I'mgonna take, and I'm gonna take my
time doing it. And right now,a lot of that stuff is kind of, like,
(38:45):
found its way. Those ideashave found them way. Their. Their
way into the medium ofpodcasting and more, most importantly,
writing. Like, I reallyappreciate that I found a way to
ignore the naysayers and thepeople who teased me and just found
a way. It was an ugly journeyof writing the book and finding sentence
(39:09):
structure and learning how tostring words together to create a
sentence that really, reallyconveys how I feel about something.
I think that's the one thingthat's, like, really wild, is that,
you know, men really only liketo, like, deal with, like, the extremes
of despair or happiness, andthere's all these other emotions
(39:33):
in between that on thespectrum. But I truly believe that
there are emotions that wehave that we. We have not. We don't
have words for yet. And that'swhy poetry exists, you know, because
we need to express thefeeling. So we, you know, we have
metaphor and poetry to. To. Totry to describe and convey to another
(39:55):
person how. Why you feel theway that you feel or how you feel.
I agree with that, and I cancontribute to that along with that
medium. You have. You havedance. You have. Because you have
expressive dance. Peopleexpress themselves in dance, in music,
and in art as well. You know,the whole creative arts feel field,
I believe, allows us themethodology for communicating in
(40:19):
the ways that we may not beable to do in a. In a. Like, a more
societal way. It's done in Away that it allows us to be able
to express ourselves throughdance or express ourselves through
music, express ourselvesthrough art and be able to get a
message conveyed. How do youfeel that the role of art in, in
(40:41):
your healing process? Did art,the creative arts, help you in your
healing process and copingwith your grief?
Yeah. Both as a creator and anaudience member. Like I was more
two left feet. So watchingpeople dance, I appreciate people
that can dance. I love, I lovestand up comedy. I love spoken word,
(41:04):
I love music, I love, I lovelyrical music, I love atmospheric
music. I love watching moviesand television shows. And I'm a really,
I really, I dig, I digmonologues. You know, I just, I just
like, I love doodlers. Like,my partner is a painter. She's got
(41:28):
one to the right of me andthen one right behind me, like a
couple right behind me andthey're all around me, but they're
not on the screen. But yeah.My partner is a painter and an illustrator.
And I just like, I love alltype, all forms of creativity, of
creative expression. Likeanybody that says that they're not
(41:49):
creative, I'm just like,hogwash. You know, how you live your
life can be a creativeperformance, you know.
Absolutely.
It could be, it could be acreative act. Think that's what we
are all kind of like here, youknow, whether there is some mighty,
you know, being out there thatcreated us. To me, creativity is
(42:16):
the ultimate form. Like evenin problem solving, you have to kind
of put yourself in a creativespace if it's a novel experience
that you're, that, that likeyou're, you're, you're interacting
with. Creativity is what helpsyou solve the problem. You know,
it doesn't matter if it's likemathematics or it's fit science.
(42:39):
You have to be able to look atsomething and be like, well, what
if I put this, take this andput this over here. Like that's like,
that's, that's like thecreative muscle in process. So we
all like creativity is fartranscends far beyond what, what
(43:00):
people think is art andcreativity. And to even go further,
like, I think that a societythat doesn't appreciate the arts
is a society that's ondecline. Artist arts and, and artistic
expression is like one of themost important aspects of the human
(43:20):
condition. One of my favoritequotes comes from a psychedelic,
a psychedelic philosopher.He's not here anymore. He had some
wacky ideas. But there's thisone quote that I always, I always
appreciated it. And thephilosopher's name is Terence McKenna.
(43:40):
He said art's task is to savethe soul of mankind. And anything
less is a dithering while Romeburns. For it is the artists who
are self selected to journeyinto the other. So if the artist
cannot find the way, then theway cannot be found.
That's very profound actually.
I love that. That quote hasstuck with me like ever since I,
(44:02):
I heard it in one of hislectures. So I, I'm a big fan of
art. Whenever I see somebodythat has like even like if, if it's
all, if it's only for you.Yeah, I think that's, that's, that's
brilliant and beautiful. LikeI, I look at that. There's a, there's
a, there is more than. When itcomes to audience and artist relationship.
(44:28):
There's, there are two typesof transactions that are happening.
You obviously, you have themonetary one so that you can, you
know, be an audience member.But I think there's this other transaction
that's more of energetic thatis happening and that is the energy
of inspiration. I'm kind of ananti influencer I think. I, I mean
(44:51):
language is important and whenwe look at what the, like influencers
can't exist unless they havean audience that is easily influenced.
You know, which isn't a veryempowering, empowering energy to
display as an audience member.Remember inspiration on is, is, is
(45:12):
something entirely different,different than influence if you're
being inspired by somebody todo or to do something of yourself.
So it's like the, thetransaction that's happening is that
when you go and you see like apiece of art being performed and
you come out and you've had,you had a lot of feelings about it,
you had a lot of, you know,you were, you've been moved emotionally.
(45:37):
You know, part of that is thislike inspirational currency that
has been trend that's, that'sbeen transferred to you. And the
worst thing you could do is donothing. You know, take that energy
and do something beautiful.Even if it's only for the audience
(45:59):
of self. Like make something,draw something, write something,
dance something, you know,take pictures of things like use
that energy, that inspirationand go and make something beautiful.
Because even if, if you, ifyou put it in a public space and
even if you don't have thatbig of a following, you don't know
(46:21):
who you're inspiring. Even ifit's only one person, one person
that you'll never meet andyou'll never know how much they appreciated
what they saw of yours.
I agree with that. That'sbrilliant. It's A way of putting
it. I think you did that withyour book because you have a message
in your book that you hope to convey.
(46:42):
Yeah.
To everyone. So you, you tookit as a written word. I know it was
supposed to be, it started offas a documentary, but you, you do
have the footage for therethat, that's always still a possibility
to piece, you know, piece that together.
Yeah.
But you were able to convey amessage through your writing which,
you know, what, what messagedo you hope to convey? How do you
(47:03):
hope to inspire or motivatepeople that have gone through the
same thing that you and yourfriend went through?
Well, I think the thread is,there's a, there's a couple different
threads that are going throughmy book. I think the mystery when
it comes to, you know, thebanner in which we rode our bike
under is an acronym RISEstands for Revolution Inspired Self
(47:27):
Evolution. Looking back 12years later, 13 years later, 14 years
later, it's the mostpretentious title I've ever laid
eyes on, but I'm going to ownit because essentially Revolution
Inspired self evolution.There's like a, there's like a flow
(47:49):
to it which I appreciate.There's a rhythm to it that I appreciate.
But essentially it means like,you know, if you want to, in order
to make great changeexternally, you have to make great
change internally, you know,be the change you want to see in
the world. And part of that ishaving and cultivating awareness.
So that is like my message ofthe importance of awareness. I, I'm
(48:14):
working on a Follow up to 2012and again, hopefully it won't take
12 years to, to write. I don'tthink it needs to be very long, but
it's kind of like myphilosophical observation on the
importance of the awarenessand how that helps us in our mental
(48:38):
health, how to navigate ourmental health through awareness.
Because the one thing thatI've noticed is that helping a society,
the individuals of the societyof a society cultivate awareness
is not really high on. It'snot really high on the list of, you
(49:05):
know, organizing our society.Foreign we're not taught it in school,
we're not taught it in, in theworkplace. The way that you come
to, I mean a lot of people cancome to like expanding their awareness
on a couple different levels.You're either born with a great sense
of awareness and selfawareness and social awareness and
(49:28):
spatial awareness. You're justkind of like born with it. Other
people like it comes along theway in their journey, but like to
intentionally like create it.That usually happens under two Paths.
And one is you've suffered atrauma and a grief and, and you go,
(49:53):
you, you, you, you finallyrealize that you need some help other
than what your friends andfamily and circle of influence can
provide. So you seek that outin some fashion, some. For me it
was therapy. And then so yougo through this journey of self awareness
for others. It's like assimple as I need a humanities credit
(50:13):
for my major. And so you justwander into a philosophy or mythology
class and have your mind blownfor three months. And then that kind
of like creates this new spacein your consciousness to seek out
your own individualisticpurpose and how to like, understand
(50:33):
yourself and who you are andwhat your place is in this world.
But to me, awareness is theonly game in town. And back in my
early 20s, I used to thinkthat, you know, the reason why the
people in power, you know,don't advocate for, you know, an
(50:53):
individual to cultivate their,their awareness was due to nefarious
purposes. It was back in mytinfoil hat wearing days. Now I think
it just stands, it comes frommore of a place of neglect and ignorance
because you have an entiresociety of, of people that have a
(51:15):
great lacking of awareness,teaching the next generation how
to exist in this world. To me,if you are, if one of your great
skills on this planet isalienating people, there's still
one person that you're stuckwith, and that's you. You're stuck
with. You cradle the grave. Soit's important that you learn who
(51:39):
you are. And when I talk aboutawareness, I think being aware is
to challenge not the, youknow, the truths of reality, but
to challenge every singleinstitution that conditions. So who
(51:59):
are you outside of state? Whoare you outside of lineage? Who are
you outside of faith? Who areyou outside of gender, sexual orientation,
able bodiedness, race? Like,who are you on a fundamental level?
And only you can write thegame plan on how to navigate those
(52:23):
questions. Nobody else can doit for you because you are uniquely
you. And you know, if you'renot trying to figure out who you
are, what you want from life,you're gonna have an entire world
trying to tell you who youare, who you should be and what you
should be trying to do inlife. So to me, awareness is the
(52:44):
only game in town. And I canonly speak for the society in which
I live in, because I've neverlived in any other society. We are
shockingly an unaware culture.And I think that that, that isn't
the only reason why we havesuch horrible mental health and suicidal
(53:07):
epidemic. But it Definitelycontributes to it.
I agree with that. I agreewith that. I think communities, society
in general, and thecommunities that we belong in and
organizations should have abetter opportunity for support for
mental health all the wayaround. I think that it, you know,
in the, in the old days, itwas something you didn't speak about.
(53:29):
Then we started speaking aboutit, but then it's still something
you're not supposed. Supposedto talk about or, you know, if you.
You mention it in any form orany way, you know, then you kind
of, kind of pushed aside alittle bit. So, yeah, I think that
our communities, society ingeneral, the organizations that we
(53:50):
are part of, need a bettersupport system for people with mental
health.
Agreed, Agreed.
I do that.
And just for development.True. Like, true development. Like,
I. If I ever had a legacy,because I'm not gonna have children.
I'm 47, I don't have any. AndI. I mean, working with kids for
16 years is probably like thegreatest birth control I ever had.
(54:13):
I also. Speaking of awareness,I know I'm pretty selfish when it
comes to, like, the thingsthat I like to do. And when you have
a child, it's not about youanymore. It's about them.
And it never stops.
Yeah. Yeah. If there was anylegacy that I would leave behind,
I would hope that I couldsomehow contribute to, you know,
(54:37):
creating a curriculum thatgoes from like first grade to 12th
grade of how to understandyourself, how to navigate yourself,
know why you respond and reactto things in a certain way, and.
And how to expand yourawareness. Because it's not just
(54:57):
self awareness, it's spatialawareness. It's social awareness.
You know, I like, I look atthis meat suit as an avatar. Its
character's name is Thomas.It's. It happens to be Anglo Saxon,
it happens to be heterosexual,and it happens to have been born
(55:20):
and a citizen of the UnitedStates. That's my avatar. Who I am
is not that. What I am is notthat. Thomas is connected to the
ego structure that I feel thatmy true self filters through and
expresses in this world. Andwith social awareness, it's a seed
(55:43):
of people that don't look likeme, that have completely different
upbringings than me, and tryto have an understanding of their
condition in life. And knowingthat because of my filter and because
of my avatar, I may nevertruly understand what it is to live
in their avatar and how theworld sees and sees them. So I think
(56:09):
that true awareness, a truepractice of awareness, not only helps
you create empathy andcompassion for yourself, which is
important, but it also helpsyou to create empathy and compassion
for others. And I think thatwe should always err on with strong
boundaries because you don'twant to let people step on you. But
(56:31):
I think it's all moreimportant to err on the side of empathy
and compassion.
I agree with youwholeheartedly. Profound statement.
I always ask at the end of theshow if there's one more thing and
words of wisdom, and you mayhave just said that, but I'm gonna
ask you.
I got one for you.
(56:51):
Yeah, I'm asking you anyway.Well, we're not there yet. We're
not there yet. Okay, almost.Hold it. Hold that thought. Okay,
let's tell everybody how toget a hold of you, your book and
your brilliant podcast thatyou share as well. So not only are
you doing it in written word,you're inspiring people with vocal
and speech and word as well.
(57:13):
Inner Monologue is more oflike a past project that I still
have available because I thinkthat the majority of the conversations
that I have, that's aconversational interview piece. I
think the. The majority of theconversations is over 300. Maybe
not my opening monologues,because those are more. Those are
more, you know, of the momentwhere the conversations are timely.
(57:36):
Stages is, is a. Is a showthat. It's kind of like more of a
diary. It's something that wasborn out of the. I lost my mom to
cancer back in May of 2023,and I'm the caretaker of my father.
And so it's kind of like justtalking about being middle aged and,
(57:57):
and navigating, you know, whatit's like to be a single child with
an aging parent. And then ofcourse, 2012, a bicycle odyssey.
That's my book about the bikeride across the country. All of these.
The links can be found in our.My website, rise phoenix.org and
(58:18):
I'll make.
Sure that all of those are inthe show notes so people can just,
you know, click it and clickit and get there. You also have an
Instagram which also shows onthe screen, but somebody can find
you on Instagram as well andfollow you.
Yeah, that's all. All mysocial media is also on the website
as well.
Well, this has been an amazingconversation. I wish we could talk
(58:39):
for like another hour. I thinkwe could easily fit so much more
into it. You'll have to comeback and talk again.
I would love to. Thank you.
It's been, this has beenamazing. I appreciate what an amazing
journey that your life hastaken. I think in a very proactive
way. I do have one Question,though. You rode all the way to New
York. Did you, did you writeit back or did you, how'd you get
(59:02):
back?
We had a support vehicle. Oh,it was, it was important to have
a support vehicle because my,my cycling buddy got injured and
we would, we do a lot ofrotating and one person would drive
the support vehicle, the otherperson would ride the bike. He got
injured in Charlotte? No, inChapel Hill, North Carolina. And
(59:27):
I pretty much rode by myself.From Charlotte, from Chapel Hill,
North Carolina, all the wayuntil like the last 50 miles of the
bike ride. So it's a 7,000mile journey, but we both don't have
7,000 miles under our belt. Ihave about 4,000, 4,500 and he's
got about 25 to 3,000.
(59:50):
Wow. That's still amazing.That's still amazing. Kudos for both
of you for doing. Thank youindividuals. Thank you to everyone
that supported you along theway. If you hear this, Yes, I think
that, you know, supergrateful. Yeah, wonderful individuals
to help you along the way.We're at the end. So again, thank
you for being here. Thank youfor being a guest. This is one more
(01:00:13):
thing before you go. Do youhave any words of wisdom you can
share? Know thyself, KnowThyself are brilliant words of wisdom.
Short, sweet, right to thepoint and exactly what we everybody
needs. So, Thomas, again,thank you very much for reaching
out. Thank you very much forcoming on the show. I really appreciate
your journey, what youcontribute to the world. I hope that
(01:00:36):
we've been able to inspire,motivate and educate some people
today.
Ditto.
Ditto is a good word too. Iwill make sure that everything is
in the show notes so that ifthey'll find you in a very easy way
for everyone else out there inthe one more thing before you go
community, thank you very muchfor being part of the community.
(01:00:58):
Please subscribe, follow,remember, write a review and we will
see you next week. One morething before you all go. Have a great
day. Have a great weekend.Thank you for being here. Thanks
for listening to this episodeof One More Thing before you go.
Check out ourwebsite@beforeyougopodcast.com youm
can find us as well assubscribe to the program and rate
(01:01:19):
us on your favorite podcastlistening platform.
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