July 29, 2025 • 41 mins
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On today's episode, we talk with Carissa McCall, Director of Revenue Operations at Liquibase, to tackle one of the most common challenges in marketing and revenue operations: how to balance strategic projects with the unrelenting pull of daily fires and ad hoc requests.
Carissa shares a candid and insightful look into her approach to building a sustainable capacity model, prioritization frameworks, and time management practices that empower her lean RevOps team to stay focused, deliver impact, and avoid burnout.
Tune in to learn:
- 🔢 How Carissa uses capacity modeling and effort-impact scoring to realistically plan and execute high-value projects across her team.
- 🎯 Frameworks for prioritization, including revenue alignment, effort estimates, and project scoping techniques using tools like Asana.
- 🧠Personal and team-level time management strategies, including calendar design for deep work and buffers for unplanned requests.
- 💬 How to say “not now” instead of “no”—and advocate for your team with transparency, empathy, and data.
- 🏆 Why celebrating wins and communicating the “heroics” of ops work matters—especially when it often goes unnoticed.
Whether you're a team of one or leading a growing ops function, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you make smarter decisions about what to take on, when, and how.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Hartmann (00:01):
Hello everyone , welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
the MoPros out there.
I'm your host, michael Hartman,flying solo, but joining me
today is Carissa McCall to talkabout one of the biggest
operational challenges thatMarketingOps folks have, which
is how to keep strategic workmoving what I like to call
change the business stuff whilejuggling the daily fires and
(00:23):
unplanned requests to come withrunning revenue operations or
marketing operations.
So Carissa is the director ofrevenue operations at Liquibase,
where she leads efforts toalign marketing and sales
through process improvement,capacity modeling and
prioritization frameworks.
She brings a thoughtful, realworld lens to ops leadership,
especially when it comes tobalancing vision and execution.
(00:43):
Carissa, welcome to the showagain.
Carissa McCall (00:47):
Thanks, michael, happy to be back.
Michael Hartmann (00:49):
Yeah, we were just talking before we got on
that you were an early guest.
I had to go remind myself.
I was like I think she was, andit was right at about a year
into our show.
So it's now three plus yearslater.
Carissa McCall (01:03):
That is crazy.
Michael Hartmann (01:04):
Yeah, so let me start with the big picture.
So when we talked before, as wewere getting ready for this,
you talked about building asustainable capacity model, so
you knew what your team couldhandle.
Click ad hoc needs so that youcould avoid pushing strategic
projects out.
So you keep moving forward.
What prompted that as sort of athing that you realized you
(01:29):
need to do, and what does thepractical day-to-day look like
for that?
Carissa McCall (01:33):
Yeah.
So I was hiring a new personfor my team and it was going to
be like they were going to bejoining about a month before the
new quarter began and I wasalready starting to think about,
okay, like what do I want toaccomplish in the next quarter?
And I had always done planningand trying to build out a
project plan of what I wanted toaccomplish.
(01:54):
But I've been a team of one forso long in so many different
roles and I think a lot of usprobably experienced that, like
we're small, lean teams, and Iwas just like, okay, what if I
really tried to think thisthrough and not just think of,
like, okay, from oursperspective, how much could I
get done?
It's like planning what'srealistic to actually set out to
(02:18):
do.
That's real, that's reasonable.
And so I started thinking about, like, okay, how much time do I
actually have in a given week?
And I started looking at mycalendar and I realized you know
, I spend a fair bit of time inmeetings.
Like I'm at the director level.
You're always going to be splitin between, like having to be
on those strategic calls versushaving the time to actually do
the thing.
Michael Hartmann (02:38):
It's a hard truth that people don't
understand.
They've not been in that role,right.
Carissa McCall (02:42):
No.
So I started thinking aboutthat and I'm like, okay, well,
with this new person, likethey're not going to be on as
many calls as I am.
So let me try to think about,okay, what is like a you know 20
hour, 20 hour split look likefor myself, you know, of having
like time to work versus time Ineed to be in meetings.
What does like a 30, 10 hoursplit look like for that person?
Like 10 hours needing to be inmeetings, like 30 hours being
(03:03):
able to work?
And then I really tried to lookat it from like a I'll like
back up a sec.
First tech startup I ever workedat, like I was like you know, I
was BDR first, like, and then Iwas like a general, like
marketing coordinator for quitea while and one of the things I
learned how to do was projectmanagement.
And I learned like you alwaysleave like 20% of your time
(03:23):
unplanned in case something goeswrong, you have a fire,
something breaks or you have anurgent project from leadership
that needs to be addressed.
So I'm thinking about all thesethings and I'm like, hey, how
do I plan this out in a reallysmart way?
So I started just doing themath.
Okay, here are some of my KPIslike as a RevOps function, as a
RevOps team, what are theprojects that need to happen to
(03:45):
support those things?
How much time will those thingstake, Like those big critical
things that will move thebusiness, and then just start
doing the math of like what canwe realistically accomplish?
And so that's kind of how Istarted going about it.
It's just like I tried to breakit down into real numbers and
like math of like hours and berealistic about it.
What prompted me is, like Ineed to be organized, like and
(04:10):
not just, you know, think formyself.
If, like, this needs to be areal function and like a real
team, I need to like, reallycritically like, think about
this and put us in a positionwhere we can actually accomplish
the goals that we're trying toset out to do for the business.
So it came from a place of like.
It's not just about myself Atthis point.
I got to think about what can weaccomplish as a team unit?
Michael Hartmann (04:34):
Yeah, so was that a relatively recent
scenario that you went throughthis?
Yeah?
Carissa McCall (04:38):
the last like two months yeah.
Michael Hartmann (04:40):
Okay.
So this is like really top ofmind, yeah, and you've got to be
able to hand stuff off that islike understandable for the new
person, right, and help themright, which adds to your
probably adds to your meetingoverload and all that, the thing
that all this implies, right.
So let's say you size those outand everything else, like you
still have to.
You probably have some sort ofsense of like which ones are
(05:01):
most important to do.
And a prioritization of somesort, which ones are most
important to do?
A prioritization of some sort?
How?
How did you go aboutprioritizing all those different
kinds of things to decide whatyou would say do in this
upcoming quarter or delay to thenext quarter?
Or maybe, if you were luckyright and you held out a little
bit of your bandwidth throughthe like, all of a sudden you're
(05:21):
like hey, we're going to have abe able to do a little more.
What's the next thing you woulddo?
Carissa McCall (05:24):
Never find myself in that position.
It's a great sentiment, yeah.
Michael Hartmann (05:32):
What was your original question?
Again, yeah, but there's alsolike, how do you understand,
like the level of effort, scopeof each of those things?
And then how do you thenprioritize, like, how do you
think about prioritizing so youcan slot them into a given
timeline?
Carissa McCall (05:43):
Yeah, so I have two elements.
So in you know we use Asana andlike within that I make custom
labels for a lot of differentthings so that I can slice and
dice and look at things in a fewdifferent ways.
But I have an impact label Likewhat kind of impact would this
probably have to the company?
I have three labels Impact low,medium, high.
And so whenever you know wethink about like Impact low,
(06:04):
medium, high and so whenever wethink about effort low, medium,
high I put it into there's somany things that we do that are
really quick hits.
It takes under an hour to do alot of small ops things.
Low is less than an hour,medium is one to five hours, and
then high effort is above,because anything you're spending
above five hours, that's a lotof time to put into something.
Michael Hartmann (06:24):
Do you have a bucket that is for things that
are sort of self-containedwithin your team or with a
relatively small set of people?
Do you do the same kind ofthing for things that are much
larger, choosing an entirely newtech platform?
Carissa McCall (06:36):
Not really, and it's a good thought to do that.
There are so many things thataren't our direct project.
There's campaign operation,things that are just part of
other teams that we're workingwith.
But, yeah, I don't think we'vegotten to that level of clarity,
but it's a good place to go tonext to start scoping those
things out.
But, like for an implementation, for example, I make all the
(07:00):
subtasks of evaluation and doinga proof of concept if it's
needed.
It's like scoping out all thepieces ofks of evaluation and
doing a proof of concept if it'sneeded.
It's like scoping out all thepieces of onboarding that need
to happen.
And yeah, I put that in the fivehours or above In my mind.
I know that, okay, this isprobably going to take like 15,
20 hours.
How many of our tasks fallunder that five hours or less?
But then the third element thatI look at is what financial
(07:24):
impact does this have?
I heard a couple of years ago Ihad someone tell me, especially
in ops, if it's not related torevenue, it doesn't matter.
And it's true.
Sure, there are things that maynot seem like they're directly
impacting revenue, but eventhings like data hygiene and
territory management, well, thatcould affect plant growth
(07:45):
that's not cleaned up andmachine properly.
So you know, I put the labelsof new business, expansion,
pipeline growth like ARR growthand so, as I'm like planning
things out, I'm labeling them.
If I'm struggling to put alabel how it impacts the
business in some capacity, thenthat means it probably needs to
stay on the backlog for a littlewhile longer.
Michael Hartmann (08:04):
Yeah, so that's kind of how I go about
prioritizing things and planning.
Do you consider things that areI don't want to say cost
reduction, because it has allkinds of other implications, but
maybe minimizing cost increasesor increasing efficiency, and
throughput those kinds of thingsthat are not quite directly
(08:26):
tied to revenue or profitability, if you want to think of it
that way?
Carissa McCall (08:30):
Those are usually the things that I'll
still do anyway.
That's that 5%.
So it's like if we have anattribution field that the
automation is a little funky andit maybe needs some attention.
That's not like directly reallyimpacting too much right now,
but if I don't get that figuredout, like that could make
(08:50):
reporting complicated later wewould just carve out like five
hours of time to work onbuilding out an automation
further.
That could save us anadditional 10 hours a month.
Like those are the things thatlike I think what you're talking
about like it's the timesavings, the efficiency and,
yeah, like that falls in.
Like that five to 10%.
(09:11):
Like it's not directly seen inlike revenue impact, but it's
got to happen at some point.
Michael Hartmann (09:13):
Indirect impact on.
I think of it as I'm going tothink about profitability, just
because I tend to think aboutboth revenue and the cost
structure that affects that.
So in terms of theprioritization, to me they're
like prioritization is one thingbut then deciding you've got
this list of things in thereprioritize, say you're.
You happen to be at the timewhen you're trying to plan
(09:33):
things out, that you're heavy onthe things that are the medium
to high side of effort.
How do you think about choosingthe right mix of low, medium,
high effort kinds of things intothe available capacity that the
team has?
Carissa McCall (09:53):
I was doing this a little bit with the math like
that I was talking about oflike kind of the available hours
that we have saved, like wehave five things on the backlog
that are really low lift butlike high impact, like really
small changes that could make ahuge difference, like I'm going
to try to attack those first,because those are quick wins
(10:14):
that can like help us improve alot of things later.
But in terms of like medium, Ithink, like keeping that under
control, maybe four, like I tryto think about things in terms
of like weeks and the amount oftime we have in a given week,
like keeping that under likemaybe three to four a month of
like medium lift things, andthen the high lift things need
(10:36):
to be like two or less, and so,as I'm like trying to pace those
out, it all just depends, too,about the individual, especially
when you think aboutimplementations or like massive
data cleanup projects oranything like that.
But it's also just understandingthat things need to happen in
an order, especially when theend goal is cleaning up your CRM
(10:58):
.
There are probably fivedifferent projects that are
encompassed in that and they allneed to go in a really specific
order to make things runsmoothly and to make your life
easier as you're going along theway.
So it's trying to like, havethat force to like look ahead
and see, like, okay, if I, thisis the final place I want to get
to.
What is everything involved inthat?
To get there and pacing thoseprojects out?
(11:20):
But being reasonable about ittoo.
And sometimes you don't knowuntil you start actually scoping
out a project of like oh, thisis way more than I originally
thought it was, and then youjust need to adjust the dates of
the future projects too.
Michael Hartmann (11:33):
So one last question on this, and then you
said something I want to pick upon.
When it comes to scoping thesedo you have, do you do this like
in some sort of formal,semi-formal way, where you're
scoring things, which I've done?
Carissa McCall (11:55):
or are you doing it a little more just based on
experience and intuition aboutso I had?
I spent some time at a HubSpotagency earlier in my career.
Weirdly, having agencyexperience makes you think of
things in terms of time.
So it's like everything thatgoes into building a landing
page, start to finish,everything that goes into
building a dashboard, dependingon the client's needs.
I know that it takes me roughlyunder half an hour to build an
(12:15):
email, start to finish, qa it,QA the list and get a test sent
out to the stakeholder.
I kept track of those thingsover time.
So I have a rough estimaterunning in my head and that's
how I'll scope things out.
And that's how I definitelyremember we would scope things
out at the agency too is justlike this is the rough time
estimate.
(12:36):
You put in a little bit ofbuffer in case something goes
weird or wrong, of course, butyeah, that's how I do that.
Michael Hartmann (12:42):
Okay, so for the things that are fairly
common, you probably have a rulelike.
This is what we generallyexpect it to take you spend a
little more time on things thatare outside the norm.
Carissa McCall (12:50):
Yeah, Thing to do with implementing something
new If I haven't implemented itbefore.
You just try to go piece bypiece.
I need to do the integration.
I need to map the value Likethis is how many values I need
to map.
This is the enablement thatneeds to be scheduled for the
team.
It's like trying to think itpiece by piece and sometimes
you're going to miss stuff forsure, yeah, always.
But yeah, and it really doescome from.
(13:13):
I think I'm still relativelyvery early in my ops career, but
I've seen a few differentscenarios a few different times
now and I'm like, okay, I have asense for how much time this
should take.
Michael Hartmann (13:26):
Yeah, kind of a rule of thumb, right, no
matter where you okay.
So you said something aboutrealistic, about what things are
going to take, and then youactually mentioned, like,
intentionally building in abuffer for even common thing,
which gets it One of the things.
I think a lot of people in thisspace me included, right, I
tend to maybe be overlyoptimistic about what can be
(13:48):
done, basically, maybe because Ithink of, like, everyone should
be as efficient or as good asme.
Right, it sounds so arrogant,but which is no longer the case
like, if you asked me to gobuild an email, I would struggle
today.
So, like, how do you thinkabout that?
What do you do to keep yourselffrom getting too optimistic and
making sure that you're doingthat not only for yourself but
for their team?
Carissa McCall (14:06):
fully and to be fully transparent.
I was just overly optimisticlast week, I think.
I go through these ebbs andflows constantly.
Do you major swing Is thevariance from the line I can
sometimes only if I'm beingsuper stubborn, like no, I said
I was going to do these thingsthis week.
It's my own fault that Iunderestimated how much time
(14:27):
this is going to take.
So I definitely get caught inthat just being stubborn and
then saying I didn't estimateproperly.
This is what happens when youdon't estimate properly.
But at the same time, I thinksometimes you get into projects
and they just take way longerthan you could have ever.
If you uncover something andyou're like I wasn't expecting
that it's an additional 10 hoursto go through the data in a
(14:50):
different way or slice things init.
Look at the automation, becauseyou found other automation that
was related to something youthought was standalone.
Michael Hartmann (14:57):
Home repair shows where they open up the
walls and there's water damage.
Carissa McCall (15:01):
Yes, exactly Trying to be realistic is week
over week, like look at yourcalendar the next week.
Is there work that's going topotentially come out of some of
those meetings that you may needto address right away.
I think that's where buildingin more buffers.
Sometimes 20% is not enough,especially when you're a builder
(15:24):
and also like a strategicperson at the same time.
Sometimes that 20% of unplannedtime is not enough.
It's a good rule of thumb andlike that's what I operate on.
Sometimes you're just going toget overly optimistic, no matter
what, and it's going to happento us.
But being realistic, I think,is being super intentional with
your calendar and beingrealistic with your time, like
(15:44):
the time you have.
Your time changes every singleweek.
Michael Hartmann (15:53):
Like the priorities of the business could
change, you know, in a week, intwo weeks, right, or there's an
intense period in a campaign ora project or some sort Right,
yeah, yeah, a couple follow-upthings.
So one, when you had thatexample where you under, maybe
underestimated something orwhatever and you did the heroic
thing and completed what yousaid you were going to complete
on or close to the time you said.
Do you then go back and clarifywith whoever it was for let's
(16:17):
assume it was some sort ofrequest from somebody to make
sure that they know that?
Carissa McCall (16:21):
oh, actually, the next time you ask for
something like this is probablygoing to be longer because, yeah
, okay, a hundred percentbecause, like I learned in that
process too, if the teams thatyou're working with don't
understand what they're askingof you, I think that's where you
know sometimes if you, if youdo the heroic thing and just get
(16:42):
it done, it's like oh, itwasn't too bad right and you can
convince yourself it was quickand easy, it wasn't a big deal,
it's totally fine, I got it.
And then you remember it laterand you're like, oh, I need to
account for more time to do thisnext time.
Sometimes you just don't knowuntil you know.
Communicating,over-communicating is really
important there.
Michael Hartmann (17:01):
Yeah, I think, being very honest and direct
about it right, and in somedegree, like I think I would be
like take ownership right, likeI did this because I told you I
would do it and that's what Itruly thought it was going to be
.
At the same time, like I'velearned now that, um, sexually,
he's going to like for this inthe future.
If we want to do him so I thinkit's worth having going through
(17:24):
the maybe what might feel likehumbling or tail between the leg
kind of conversation.
Carissa McCall (17:31):
Yeah, and I've been going through that, I think
, a lot just in the last fewmonths, just making a transition
from marketing ops to rev ops.
There are things that Iunderstand, the basis of what I
need to do.
I have the technical skill andability to do these things, but
some of these projects it's myfirst time doing them before I
can do my best to estimate, butit's like that's where it's
(17:53):
constantly like learning andit's being as real as you can,
but sometimes you're still goingto be like well underestimated.
That one, yeah.
Michael Hartmann (18:00):
So I think that's part of learning right.
Carissa McCall (18:02):
Yeah, that's just growing in your career, I
think, and doing new things anddoing hard things.
Michael Hartmann (18:07):
Yeah, so you've got a team.
Now, a lot of what we've talkedabout so far is, especially if
you're a team of one, or evenjust a really small team, right
where you're mostly a heavyplayer and coach.
It's a matter of managing yourown time.
Yeah, hopefully having somecontrol over your own calendar.
But then when you start havinga team, how are you trying to
(18:31):
help the team overall manage thepriorities and the commitments,
and maybe even helping themmanage their own time and
calendar personally?
Carissa McCall (18:40):
I ask a lot because I make educated guesses
on what's realistic, um, youknow, especially for somebody.
But in reality something couldtake me 45 minutes and take
another person 20 minutes.
Everybody works at differentspeeds sometimes, so I always
ask is this realistic?
Is this due date realistic?
Is this timeline realistic?
(19:01):
This is what I think isinvolved.
Am I missing anything?
Am I not thinking of somethingNever being so far removed that
you lose the thought of how muchwork is this for somebody else?
And like, did I give themknowing, like rough idea of
their calendar?
What other priorities, whatother things are due around the
same time?
What could go wrong with thosethings that are happening at the
same time?
(19:21):
But am I being realistic?
Am I being fair?
I ask that a lot.
Michael Hartmann (19:25):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of a certain personal
time management approach, rightBased on Franklin Covey model.
Do you use anything like thatfor your personal time
management?
Carissa McCall (19:35):
What is that?
I'm sure I have a rough idea.
I might know.
Michael Hartmann (19:38):
Well so, if you're familiar with the seven
habits of highly effectivepeople, yes.
Okay.
So Stephen Covey wrote that Yep, so Franklin Covey planners.
I had one for years, probablysomewhere sitting in the stack
of stuff around my feet becauseI'm so organized.
It was all paper-based right,but part of it was it was very
much about integrating scheduledthings and like to-dos right.
(20:01):
I think a lot of peoplestruggle with if it's the to-dos
don't get handled, especiallyif you don't manage your
calendar right, because you needto allocate time to do them,
even small things.
So it's a framework formanaging that and a lot of it's
based on principles from theseven habits.
It's not the only one right.
I mean.
There are other ways of doingit.
There are certainly ways fordoing prioritization of action
(20:22):
items or to-dos that arepersonal, like Eisenhower matrix
and things like that.
Carissa McCall (20:29):
I don't use a specific framework, but I found
something that works for me andthat's stacking a lot of my
meetings like towards thebeginning of the week, because I
realized some people canmultitask really well.
Michael Hartmann (20:42):
Some people.
Carissa McCall (20:42):
I can't focus on more than one thing at a time.
But with that being said,that's kind of the point is I
need focus time.
I can't like if I have 15minutes in between my next
meeting.
I had a boss one time and shewas I mean, she's incredible
Like one of the best people I'veever had the pleasure to work
for.
She could just do all theselike with 15, like in between
meetings or 30 minutes and likeshe was so efficient.
(21:04):
But I really overthink thingssometimes and I know that I do
that.
So I've got to have at least anhour block if I want to do
something productive, and sowhat I've started doing is
having like larger blocks in themorning.
My brain works best in themorning.
I'm an early morning person.
Michael Hartmann (21:24):
This is why we get alone.
Carissa McCall (21:27):
Like I know some people that they can think
really well on deep projectslike late at night, and I'm just
like I am in bed by eight.
I'm asleep by 8 30, like that'show I function I wish I could
say that so.
so the early morning stuff likesometimes I will do a few things
before work hours if I need,like, absolute quiet and I need
(21:47):
to focus on something.
But starting to block mycalendar from nine to 11 ish to
try to have real deep focus time, I've been able to get some
really cool stuff done.
Michael Hartmann (21:57):
It's trying to understand yourself and it's
your calendar that helps youcontrol your calendar, which I
have regularly tried to likeblock time on a daily basis, and
then shit comes up and I, I get, I give in, I give in, yeah, so
yeah, if you like, started totrain the rest of the people
that you work with.
Like, this is my focus time.
(22:19):
So, unless it's really reallyyou know, honor this for me
please, so I can get big, likebig, deep thinking stuff done
yeah it.
Carissa McCall (22:26):
It's like I when I started requesting teammates,
like hey, can I move this call?
Can I move this call?
I'm trying to have blocks oftime where I can just focus on
projects, like basically, I'llget all the to-dos from the
meeting like early in the week,and then I've got time to do the
things that I anticipatedcorrectly of, like what's going
to come out of those meetings.
I actually have time to do thethings and it's like it's not
(22:48):
perfect and I am not perfect atthis, but this is what I try to
do and I think I can roughly doit like 75% of the time, and so
it allows me to be productive ina way that like is helpful for
me.
I'm like I'm using my bestbrain time on meetings in the
morning, like something's got togive, and so I started moving
things around a little.
(23:12):
We joked one time it was backwhen I worked at the agency.
Actually I told someone onetime I'm like I do my best
automation at like 530 in themorning.
It's just better, my brain'sjust sharper.
I've had my first cup of coffee.
I'm happy about the day.
Michael Hartmann (23:23):
So what's really interesting to me is like
I don't think a lot of peoplepay attention to those signals
from their bodies.
Everybody is a little different.
This is one of the things.
Instagram, tiktok oh, do this,get up at five in the morning.
It doesn't work for everybody.
I'm an early morning person.
I also struggle in the middleof the afternoon.
If we weren't talking, I wouldbe really struggling.
(23:44):
It's mid-afternoon for me.
It's warm, but then I'll getanother boost of energy in the
late evening.
So the problem for me is likesleep is a problem for me.
Right, that's like, but I, it'sjust how my body works.
But I think a lot of peopledon't pay like.
If they paid more attention tothat and then try to take back a
little more control andactually had the again, it kind
(24:05):
of comes back to beingtransparent with the people you
work with.
If you want the best for me,like this is what I think will
work best.
I think your point about likethe goal is not a hundred
percent.
The goal is whatever, 75%, 50%,like, don't overdo it.
Carissa McCall (24:19):
It's something to work towards.
Another thing about theplanning and all the project
management stuff too I'm likesometimes they were just made
quickly from a meeting and I'mlike I got to do that by Friday
and I know I do, but it's goingto take me maybe 45 minutes.
Those larger projects, likethose big rocks that are like
related to your KPIs, like theyrequire very thoughtful
consideration and like time onthe calendar that's needed and
(24:41):
necessary for them.
Michael Hartmann (24:44):
Okay, so, all that said, right, then, how do
you?
I think there's two variants ofthis, and we could cover one at
a time if you want, but there's, like we all have experience
where you get unexpectedhigh-priority requests or ones
that that someone thinks areurgent and high priority, but
(25:06):
maybe right.
How do you handle those?
Both in terms of like, how doyou handle reacting to those and
assessing which of those theyfall into?
And then, second, like, how doyou then both like?
I think there's two parts tothis.
Right, you're gonna have toadjust what you've committed to.
Probably, maybe, if you're ableto.
Sometimes you can't.
This is where you put in extraeffort and you need to
(25:27):
communicate what that impact isto others who things might be
affected.
Carissa McCall (25:31):
Yeah, with those , the urgent requests that come
in, I the first thing I thinkabout is, if I don't get this
done in the next handful of days, or two to three days, like
whatever it is that the personasked for, like from the urgency
point of view, is that going toaffect pipeline?
(25:52):
Is it going to affect businessthat we can win?
Is it like, what is it going toaffect if I delay it more?
So, like, sometimes I can makethat choice and I ask for a.
I'm like you know, ask for adifferent date, you know live
date on the task versus what wasasked for.
If you're not sure, there isnothing wrong with asking your
(26:16):
boss, your manager, like there's, there's nothing wrong with
that at all, and I actually dothat often.
I think, when I'm not a hundredpercent, sure% sure, I'll build
out a list.
I'm like okay, if we want toget this done by Friday, say, if
it's a Monday, I want to getthis done by Friday.
Here's what I'm thinking.
(26:36):
I need to deprioritize in orderto do that and to have time to
do it, and I'll literally justsend that as a message.
Is there anything I'mmisreading or misjudging here?
And that's a completely okayapproach to do that.
We have a rough idea of whatshould be pushed aside, like
what can be lower priority, butsometimes, depending on the week
and what's going on, sometimesI'm not sure.
(26:58):
I just need a gut check.
This is what I think, but Ineed somebody's feedback.
Michael Hartmann (27:02):
Sometimes I think, if your experience is
like mine, sometimes you gothrough that list and you're
like actually nothing can push.
Carissa McCall (27:07):
And that's just how it is sometimes.
Michael Hartmann (27:09):
Yeah.
Carissa McCall (27:10):
Yeah, and that's okay too.
And you know what, when stufflike that happens, make sure you
have a couple of things plannedthat week, like outside of work
, that you are looking forwardto, that make you happy, that
are important to you, like sayyou know what, I'm going to make
(27:30):
this really big push on thisproject and like Friday morning
I'm going to go get my favoritecoffee from my favorite coffee
shop, like that's what I've done.
That it's like you know, like Ihad a teammate, like she said
one time she's like always havesomething to look forward to
because, like you know,sometimes we work really hard,
like all of us work really hardin our jobs, and like we want to
do good things, we want to dogood quality things and
(27:51):
sometimes like that extra time.
Sometimes it all does have toget done, but if you're saying
like I'm going to reward myself,like for all you know, extra
hard work, it's just the littlethings in life.
Michael Hartmann (27:56):
Yeah, that's not what I thought you were
going to say, because I don'tthink it's a bad thing.
This is something I struggledwith until later in my career.
But I think it's important tobe vocal about the heroics that
you just did, right, make surepeople know that this was above
and beyond the norm, so thatit's not perceived as the way
(28:16):
it's just going to be.
For two reasons One, like youshould be proud of that when it
goes well.
Just like feel badly if youhave any care about the work at
all, if you didn't do something,you might as well get the
credit for doing heroic stufftoo.
I don't think enough of us doenough.
Like I think we just there's alot of people who are probably
listening and I was this way too.
Like this is just part, this isjust part of the job, right,
(28:39):
and yes, that may be true.
At the same time, it doesn'tmean that it's not out of the
ordinary for what you should beexpected.
Carissa McCall (28:47):
Yeah, and I think you bring up a really good
point.
Sometimes I'm just like nope, Ineeded to get this done.
This week I sat on my couchwith my little laptop desk early
in the morning and I turned onNew Girl and I had a good cup of
coffee and I got the work done.
You know a few mornings in arow to make sure it got done and
(29:08):
sometimes you don't think aboutwhoa, that was a lot Like.
I did a lot there.
That was good to accomplishthat.
So, it's a good reminder, thanks.
Michael Hartmann (29:12):
Yeah, and I know like one thing I started
doing I don't know how manyyears ago, especially as a
leader.
I would both do it for peopleon my team, but also for people
who were on other teams thatworked for me or did work I
worked with.
If I thought they had goneabove and beyond, I would
literally write an email totheir boss telling them if it
(29:33):
was somebody worked for me, Iwould send it to my boss right
like talking about the the thingthey had done.
Um, because I think it's like Idon't think people get enough
of that right, especially inthis world.
It feels like you get attentionwhen things don't go well, not
when they do.
Carissa McCall (29:47):
For sure.
Michael Hartmann (29:49):
So ninety, nine good things and one bad,
and then that's the.
That's when the guns arepointed at you, figuratively.
Well, whenever.
Carissa McCall (29:57):
I think when you ask others that don't work in
ops, how do you see operationsas successful?
And a lot of people will tellyou when I don't know if
anything wrong happened, If Idon't hear anything, that's how
I know it's working and it'slike that is the truth of it.
That's usually the way peoplethink about it.
So we are the behind the scenesautomation process wizards.
Michael Hartmann (30:23):
The only flaw in that is if people are talking
about it negatively behind thescenes and you don't know about
it, I can't do anything.
OK, so true, yes and no, I don'ttotally agree.
But I'll set that aside for now, because I think this next
question I had may get into thisa little bit, which is you and
(30:46):
I have known each other for nowfor a while, and I think one of
the things that you probablywent through as a lot of people
do, especially as they get inleadership kinds of roles is
having to advocate for your team, and sometimes that means
saying no to people and requestsor not.
Now, how have you gotten usedto doing that?
Do you have a general approachor does it case by case basis?
(31:09):
Do you feel more comfortablewith that now?
Carissa McCall (31:11):
No, I don't think I'll ever be comfortable
with it.
I still have to work on it likeevery day, and I think that's a
me thing and I'm sure otherpeople like feel that too.
But when your personality canbe geared toward just people
pleasing in general, personally,professionally, it is just
guilty.
I'm so terrible, but I'm justlike, oh, we could go to that
(31:35):
restaurant Totally, and I just Iwill go with the flow and I
don't like harbor any resentmentfrom going with the flow.
Like, want people others to behappy, but in my work, my work
is so important to me, like Iput so much of myself into that,
and so I want people to behappy with my work.
I want to make their jobseasier.
I want to make their liveseasier, and so I'm like, if I
(31:58):
don't do this, what if it makestheir life harder?
What if it makes their jobharder?
And so I go through thatthought process.
But I think usually the advicethat I've gotten from other ops
folks and other leaders thatI've talked to and so you know
this is the, I think, bestpractice and what I'm still
working on always is ask morequestions.
(32:20):
When someone asks you forsomething and it's like you're
not necessarily sure if itshould be prioritized or not, if
it's something we should everdo or not.
Ask the questions of like, bynot having this, what is this
not allowing you to do today?
Is this affecting your team'sability to track their progress
(32:41):
or reach their goals?
Is it affecting, like ourability to build pipeline.
Is it affecting our like?
There are so many questionsthat you could start asking.
So I'll do like a 15 minuteconversation with someone when
they submit, like we have I madelike a Slack request channel
where they like submit a littleform and then I can easily make
the task in Asana and I likehaving that little queue system.
(33:02):
But usually when someonesubmits something and it's like
something I need a little bitmore information about, I'll
book like 15 minutes with themjust to talk about it.
I'm like help me understand,like, what's going on.
Like what is this hurting rightnow?
Like how is this affecting yourteam?
How is it affecting, like youknow, your day to day?
Because I think the better Ican understand that I can
sympathize and understand likehow prior know high priority is
(33:26):
this and usually by gettingsomeone to talk about it, they
can also realize if it's not thehighest priority thing in the
world or not.
Michael Hartmann (33:35):
Um, it's trying to make each party
understand it a little bit moreyeah, I think the idea of having
this is the value of havingsome sort of cue and a form,
kind of like there's stillpeople who tend to not go
through that process, right?
sure ceo vp, like what they'regoing to come to you maybe like
directly, and so the one I thinksuggestion I would have in
(33:58):
those cases, like your thoughtson this is because you may not
be ready for that, they may nothave the questions ready at hand
is just to maybe ask forclarification, understand the
scope of it, but then ask forsome time to consider it and
become back with more questionsright before committing to
anything.
Carissa McCall (34:18):
Yeah, I think that's a great idea, cause then
that's how you also avoidsituations of fighting off more
than you need to at one time say, yep, I'll get that to you
Thursday, I'll get that to youFriday, and then, like, you get
to it and you're like I shouldhave thought through this a
little bit more.
Michael Hartmann (34:35):
And even if you're not given because they
still believe it's a super highurgent thing, right.
Even if you get a few hours,that can be enough, right.
That obviously might affectwhat your day was planned out to
be and the things that you weregoing to do during that time.
Yeah, but if you got put in thatposition and you had to commit
right there and then thattotally shoots the entire week,
(34:58):
right rails thing it gives you achance to put some thought
around it, to clarify yourunderstanding, any outstanding
questions and then also theimpact right, which, which is
the part that gets missed.
There are people out there, I'msure, who have this great
memory for everything that's inthe queue right and it's active,
but that is not me.
I'd want to be able to go backand look at that.
Most people that I'veencountered not all, but most
(35:21):
are reasonable about it, right,they give you a little bit of
time to do that.
Carissa McCall (35:23):
Yeah, Just to think through it, Cause I'm a
lot of time only if there arethings that we've done on repeat
, like those repeatableprocesses that we have like
ingrained in our brain, like howlong it'll take you.
But if someone's asking you todo something new, like I think
that's a great idea to just takethe time, take a couple hours,
go write it on a piece of paper,draw it out see how long it
(35:44):
will realistically take to dothis and that way, you're
properly setting expectationstoo yeah, when I think this does
, it signals some maturity,right, and
Michael Hartmann (35:55):
not immediate reaction I think we all have
heard right.
A lot of people in marketingops in particular say like they
feel like they're just tasktakers or task doers, and some
of that perception can bechanged.
If you do that Now, just sayingno flat out right, that's not
going to do it.
That will not end well either.
You can't go all the way to theother extreme, but there is a
(36:17):
place in the middle that ifyou're not used to doing it
right, it's going to take sometime to figure out how to do it
well.
Carissa McCall (36:24):
Yeah, like my version of that right now.
When someone tells me likesomething is medium or low
priority and ask when do wethink we can get to this, I say
I need to look at the rest ofour backlog and I need to look
at the rest of our plannedprojects and I will get back to
you as soon as I have anestimated date and we'll talk
more then.
Michael Hartmann (36:42):
I just can't bring myself to say no.
Carissa McCall (36:44):
I just say not yet, not right now, but we will
totally talk about it very soon.
I usually try to talk about itsometime in the next, you know,
two to three weeks, because Idon't want anyone to feel like
their problem's not important oranything.
Michael Hartmann (36:56):
But what you are saying is yes to considering
it.
Carissa McCall (36:58):
Yep, consider everything, like every request,
because no one's asking forsomething like unreasonable that
it's not feasible as to whythey would want something like
that.
Michael Hartmann (37:09):
Most of the time I haven't heard anything
like that in my experience.
So it's funny For a short periodof my career I was in sales and
one of the things I learned, ora mental model, is that when a
prospect says no, the bestsalespeople don't hear.
No, they hear not now.
And I think the flip of that isif you're telling somebody not
(37:32):
now, right, they're not hearing.
No either, they're hearingthere's a chance.
And if you're, especially ifyou're saying not now, but I'll
get back to you in X period oftime to give you something more
definitive, then a lot of peopleare just looking for that Now.
Carissa McCall (37:46):
Eventually you have to commit right, yeah, but
I do need the time to thinkabout it, because maybe there's,
maybe there's a solution likealready sort of in place that
could help, like maybe there'ssomething already available and
I just don't know, um, and Ineed to go figure it out, right,
but it's just giving yourselfthe time to think about it.
It is a great approach to that.
Michael Hartmann (38:07):
I love it.
I think this has been a greatconversation that a lot of our
folks in our audience are goingto get a lot of benefit from.
So thank you, carissa.
Yeah, so if folks do want toreach out to you or learn more
about what you're doing, or ifyou're active, you are in the
community or on social media butwhat's the best way for them to
do that?
Carissa McCall (38:26):
Yeah, you can send me a LinkedIn connection
request.
My name is Carissa McCall.
I am the director of RevOps atLiquibase.
You can go to the Liquibasecompany page and probably find
me that way too.
Michael Hartmann (38:36):
There you go.
All right, awesome Again.
Thank you, carissa.
Thanks to all of our long-timeand new-term listeners and
soon-to-be watchers, so weappreciate your support, as
always.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
you can reach out to Naomi, mikeor me, and we'd be happy to get
the ball rolling on that Untilnext time.
Bye, everybody.
Hello everyone , welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
the MoPros out there.
I'm your host, michael Hartman,flying solo, but joining me
today is Carissa McCall to talkabout one of the biggest
operational challenges thatMarketingOps folks have, which
is how to keep strategic workmoving what I like to call
change the business stuff whilejuggling the daily fires and
(00:23):
unplanned requests to come withrunning revenue operations or
marketing operations.
So Carissa is the director ofrevenue operations at Liquibase,
where she leads efforts toalign marketing and sales
through process improvement,capacity modeling and
prioritization frameworks.
She brings a thoughtful, realworld lens to ops leadership,
especially when it comes tobalancing vision and execution.
(00:43):
Carissa, welcome to the showagain.
Carissa McCall (00:47):
Thanks, michael, happy to be back.
Michael Hartmann (00:49):
Yeah, we were just talking before we got on
that you were an early guest.
I had to go remind myself.
I was like I think she was, andit was right at about a year
into our show.
So it's now three plus yearslater.
Carissa McCall (01:03):
That is crazy.
Michael Hartmann (01:04):
Yeah, so let me start with the big picture.
So when we talked before, as wewere getting ready for this,
you talked about building asustainable capacity model, so
you knew what your team couldhandle.
Click ad hoc needs so that youcould avoid pushing strategic
projects out.
So you keep moving forward.
What prompted that as sort of athing that you realized you
(01:29):
need to do, and what does thepractical day-to-day look like
for that?
Carissa McCall (01:33):
Yeah.
So I was hiring a new personfor my team and it was going to
be like they were going to bejoining about a month before the
new quarter began and I wasalready starting to think about,
okay, like what do I want toaccomplish in the next quarter?
And I had always done planningand trying to build out a
project plan of what I wanted toaccomplish.
(01:54):
But I've been a team of one forso long in so many different
roles and I think a lot of usprobably experienced that, like
we're small, lean teams, and Iwas just like, okay, what if I
really tried to think thisthrough and not just think of,
like, okay, from oursperspective, how much could I
get done?
It's like planning what'srealistic to actually set out to
(02:18):
do.
That's real, that's reasonable.
And so I started thinking about, like, okay, how much time do I
actually have in a given week?
And I started looking at mycalendar and I realized you know
, I spend a fair bit of time inmeetings.
Like I'm at the director level.
You're always going to be splitin between, like having to be
on those strategic calls versushaving the time to actually do
the thing.
Michael Hartmann (02:38):
It's a hard truth that people don't
understand.
They've not been in that role,right.
Carissa McCall (02:42):
No.
So I started thinking aboutthat and I'm like, okay, well,
with this new person, likethey're not going to be on as
many calls as I am.
So let me try to think about,okay, what is like a you know 20
hour, 20 hour split look likefor myself, you know, of having
like time to work versus time Ineed to be in meetings.
What does like a 30, 10 hoursplit look like for that person?
Like 10 hours needing to be inmeetings, like 30 hours being
(03:03):
able to work?
And then I really tried to lookat it from like a I'll like
back up a sec.
First tech startup I ever workedat, like I was like you know, I
was BDR first, like, and then Iwas like a general, like
marketing coordinator for quitea while and one of the things I
learned how to do was projectmanagement.
And I learned like you alwaysleave like 20% of your time
(03:23):
unplanned in case something goeswrong, you have a fire,
something breaks or you have anurgent project from leadership
that needs to be addressed.
So I'm thinking about all thesethings and I'm like, hey, how
do I plan this out in a reallysmart way?
So I started just doing themath.
Okay, here are some of my KPIslike as a RevOps function, as a
RevOps team, what are theprojects that need to happen to
(03:45):
support those things?
How much time will those thingstake, Like those big critical
things that will move thebusiness, and then just start
doing the math of like what canwe realistically accomplish?
And so that's kind of how Istarted going about it.
It's just like I tried to breakit down into real numbers and
like math of like hours and berealistic about it.
What prompted me is, like Ineed to be organized, like and
(04:10):
not just, you know, think formyself.
If, like, this needs to be areal function and like a real
team, I need to like, reallycritically like, think about
this and put us in a positionwhere we can actually accomplish
the goals that we're trying toset out to do for the business.
So it came from a place of like.
It's not just about myself Atthis point.
I got to think about what can weaccomplish as a team unit?
Michael Hartmann (04:34):
Yeah, so was that a relatively recent
scenario that you went throughthis?
Yeah?
Carissa McCall (04:38):
the last like two months yeah.
Michael Hartmann (04:40):
Okay.
So this is like really top ofmind, yeah, and you've got to be
able to hand stuff off that islike understandable for the new
person, right, and help themright, which adds to your
probably adds to your meetingoverload and all that, the thing
that all this implies, right.
So let's say you size those outand everything else, like you
still have to.
You probably have some sort ofsense of like which ones are
(05:01):
most important to do.
And a prioritization of somesort, which ones are most
important to do?
A prioritization of some sort?
How?
How did you go aboutprioritizing all those different
kinds of things to decide whatyou would say do in this
upcoming quarter or delay to thenext quarter?
Or maybe, if you were luckyright and you held out a little
bit of your bandwidth throughthe like, all of a sudden you're
(05:21):
like hey, we're going to have abe able to do a little more.
What's the next thing you woulddo?
Carissa McCall (05:24):
Never find myself in that position.
It's a great sentiment, yeah.
Michael Hartmann (05:32):
What was your original question?
Again, yeah, but there's alsolike, how do you understand,
like the level of effort, scopeof each of those things?
And then how do you thenprioritize, like, how do you
think about prioritizing so youcan slot them into a given
timeline?
Carissa McCall (05:43):
Yeah, so I have two elements.
So in you know we use Asana andlike within that I make custom
labels for a lot of differentthings so that I can slice and
dice and look at things in a fewdifferent ways.
But I have an impact label Likewhat kind of impact would this
probably have to the company?
I have three labels Impact low,medium, high.
And so whenever you know wethink about like Impact low,
(06:04):
medium, high and so whenever wethink about effort low, medium,
high I put it into there's somany things that we do that are
really quick hits.
It takes under an hour to do alot of small ops things.
Low is less than an hour,medium is one to five hours, and
then high effort is above,because anything you're spending
above five hours, that's a lotof time to put into something.
Michael Hartmann (06:24):
Do you have a bucket that is for things that
are sort of self-containedwithin your team or with a
relatively small set of people?
Do you do the same kind ofthing for things that are much
larger, choosing an entirely newtech platform?
Carissa McCall (06:36):
Not really, and it's a good thought to do that.
There are so many things thataren't our direct project.
There's campaign operation,things that are just part of
other teams that we're workingwith.
But, yeah, I don't think we'vegotten to that level of clarity,
but it's a good place to go tonext to start scoping those
things out.
But, like for an implementation, for example, I make all the
(07:00):
subtasks of evaluation and doinga proof of concept if it's
needed.
It's like scoping out all thepieces ofks of evaluation and
doing a proof of concept if it'sneeded.
It's like scoping out all thepieces of onboarding that need
to happen.
And yeah, I put that in the fivehours or above In my mind.
I know that, okay, this isprobably going to take like 15,
20 hours.
How many of our tasks fallunder that five hours or less?
But then the third element thatI look at is what financial
(07:24):
impact does this have?
I heard a couple of years ago Ihad someone tell me, especially
in ops, if it's not related torevenue, it doesn't matter.
And it's true.
Sure, there are things that maynot seem like they're directly
impacting revenue, but eventhings like data hygiene and
territory management, well, thatcould affect plant growth
(07:45):
that's not cleaned up andmachine properly.
So you know, I put the labelsof new business, expansion,
pipeline growth like ARR growthand so, as I'm like planning
things out, I'm labeling them.
If I'm struggling to put alabel how it impacts the
business in some capacity, thenthat means it probably needs to
stay on the backlog for a littlewhile longer.
Michael Hartmann (08:04):
Yeah, so that's kind of how I go about
prioritizing things and planning.
Do you consider things that areI don't want to say cost
reduction, because it has allkinds of other implications, but
maybe minimizing cost increasesor increasing efficiency, and
throughput those kinds of thingsthat are not quite directly
(08:26):
tied to revenue or profitability, if you want to think of it
that way?
Carissa McCall (08:30):
Those are usually the things that I'll
still do anyway.
That's that 5%.
So it's like if we have anattribution field that the
automation is a little funky andit maybe needs some attention.
That's not like directly reallyimpacting too much right now,
but if I don't get that figuredout, like that could make
(08:50):
reporting complicated later wewould just carve out like five
hours of time to work onbuilding out an automation
further.
That could save us anadditional 10 hours a month.
Like those are the things thatlike I think what you're talking
about like it's the timesavings, the efficiency and,
yeah, like that falls in.
Like that five to 10%.
(09:11):
Like it's not directly seen inlike revenue impact, but it's
got to happen at some point.
Michael Hartmann (09:13):
Indirect impact on.
I think of it as I'm going tothink about profitability, just
because I tend to think aboutboth revenue and the cost
structure that affects that.
So in terms of theprioritization, to me they're
like prioritization is one thingbut then deciding you've got
this list of things in thereprioritize, say you're.
You happen to be at the timewhen you're trying to plan
(09:33):
things out, that you're heavy onthe things that are the medium
to high side of effort.
How do you think about choosingthe right mix of low, medium,
high effort kinds of things intothe available capacity that the
team has?
Carissa McCall (09:53):
I was doing this a little bit with the math like
that I was talking about oflike kind of the available hours
that we have saved, like wehave five things on the backlog
that are really low lift butlike high impact, like really
small changes that could make ahuge difference, like I'm going
to try to attack those first,because those are quick wins
(10:14):
that can like help us improve alot of things later.
But in terms of like medium, Ithink, like keeping that under
control, maybe four, like I tryto think about things in terms
of like weeks and the amount oftime we have in a given week,
like keeping that under likemaybe three to four a month of
like medium lift things, andthen the high lift things need
(10:36):
to be like two or less, and so,as I'm like trying to pace those
out, it all just depends, too,about the individual, especially
when you think aboutimplementations or like massive
data cleanup projects oranything like that.
But it's also just understandingthat things need to happen in
an order, especially when theend goal is cleaning up your CRM
(10:58):
.
There are probably fivedifferent projects that are
encompassed in that and they allneed to go in a really specific
order to make things runsmoothly and to make your life
easier as you're going along theway.
So it's trying to like, havethat force to like look ahead
and see, like, okay, if I, thisis the final place I want to get
to.
What is everything involved inthat?
To get there and pacing thoseprojects out?
(11:20):
But being reasonable about ittoo.
And sometimes you don't knowuntil you start actually scoping
out a project of like oh, thisis way more than I originally
thought it was, and then youjust need to adjust the dates of
the future projects too.
Michael Hartmann (11:33):
So one last question on this, and then you
said something I want to pick upon.
When it comes to scoping thesedo you have, do you do this like
in some sort of formal,semi-formal way, where you're
scoring things, which I've done?
Carissa McCall (11:55):
or are you doing it a little more just based on
experience and intuition aboutso I had?
I spent some time at a HubSpotagency earlier in my career.
Weirdly, having agencyexperience makes you think of
things in terms of time.
So it's like everything thatgoes into building a landing
page, start to finish,everything that goes into
building a dashboard, dependingon the client's needs.
I know that it takes me roughlyunder half an hour to build an
(12:15):
email, start to finish, qa it,QA the list and get a test sent
out to the stakeholder.
I kept track of those thingsover time.
So I have a rough estimaterunning in my head and that's
how I'll scope things out.
And that's how I definitelyremember we would scope things
out at the agency too is justlike this is the rough time
estimate.
(12:36):
You put in a little bit ofbuffer in case something goes
weird or wrong, of course, butyeah, that's how I do that.
Michael Hartmann (12:42):
Okay, so for the things that are fairly
common, you probably have a rulelike.
This is what we generallyexpect it to take you spend a
little more time on things thatare outside the norm.
Carissa McCall (12:50):
Yeah, Thing to do with implementing something
new If I haven't implemented itbefore.
You just try to go piece bypiece.
I need to do the integration.
I need to map the value Likethis is how many values I need
to map.
This is the enablement thatneeds to be scheduled for the
team.
It's like trying to think itpiece by piece and sometimes
you're going to miss stuff forsure, yeah, always.
But yeah, and it really doescome from.
(13:13):
I think I'm still relativelyvery early in my ops career, but
I've seen a few differentscenarios a few different times
now and I'm like, okay, I have asense for how much time this
should take.
Michael Hartmann (13:26):
Yeah, kind of a rule of thumb, right, no
matter where you okay.
So you said something aboutrealistic, about what things are
going to take, and then youactually mentioned, like,
intentionally building in abuffer for even common thing,
which gets it One of the things.
I think a lot of people in thisspace me included, right, I
tend to maybe be overlyoptimistic about what can be
(13:48):
done, basically, maybe because Ithink of, like, everyone should
be as efficient or as good asme.
Right, it sounds so arrogant,but which is no longer the case
like, if you asked me to gobuild an email, I would struggle
today.
So, like, how do you thinkabout that?
What do you do to keep yourselffrom getting too optimistic and
making sure that you're doingthat not only for yourself but
for their team?
Carissa McCall (14:06):
fully and to be fully transparent.
I was just overly optimisticlast week, I think.
I go through these ebbs andflows constantly.
Do you major swing Is thevariance from the line I can
sometimes only if I'm beingsuper stubborn, like no, I said
I was going to do these thingsthis week.
It's my own fault that Iunderestimated how much time
(14:27):
this is going to take.
So I definitely get caught inthat just being stubborn and
then saying I didn't estimateproperly.
This is what happens when youdon't estimate properly.
But at the same time, I thinksometimes you get into projects
and they just take way longerthan you could have ever.
If you uncover something andyou're like I wasn't expecting
that it's an additional 10 hoursto go through the data in a
(14:50):
different way or slice things init.
Look at the automation, becauseyou found other automation that
was related to something youthought was standalone.
Michael Hartmann (14:57):
Home repair shows where they open up the
walls and there's water damage.
Carissa McCall (15:01):
Yes, exactly Trying to be realistic is week
over week, like look at yourcalendar the next week.
Is there work that's going topotentially come out of some of
those meetings that you may needto address right away.
I think that's where buildingin more buffers.
Sometimes 20% is not enough,especially when you're a builder
(15:24):
and also like a strategicperson at the same time.
Sometimes that 20% of unplannedtime is not enough.
It's a good rule of thumb andlike that's what I operate on.
Sometimes you're just going toget overly optimistic, no matter
what, and it's going to happento us.
But being realistic, I think,is being super intentional with
your calendar and beingrealistic with your time, like
(15:44):
the time you have.
Your time changes every singleweek.
Michael Hartmann (15:53):
Like the priorities of the business could
change, you know, in a week, intwo weeks, right, or there's an
intense period in a campaign ora project or some sort Right,
yeah, yeah, a couple follow-upthings.
So one, when you had thatexample where you under, maybe
underestimated something orwhatever and you did the heroic
thing and completed what yousaid you were going to complete
on or close to the time you said.
Do you then go back and clarifywith whoever it was for let's
(16:17):
assume it was some sort ofrequest from somebody to make
sure that they know that?
Carissa McCall (16:21):
oh, actually, the next time you ask for
something like this is probablygoing to be longer because, yeah
, okay, a hundred percentbecause, like I learned in that
process too, if the teams thatyou're working with don't
understand what they're askingof you, I think that's where you
know sometimes if you, if youdo the heroic thing and just get
(16:42):
it done, it's like oh, itwasn't too bad right and you can
convince yourself it was quickand easy, it wasn't a big deal,
it's totally fine, I got it.
And then you remember it laterand you're like, oh, I need to
account for more time to do thisnext time.
Sometimes you just don't knowuntil you know.
Communicating,over-communicating is really
important there.
Michael Hartmann (17:01):
Yeah, I think, being very honest and direct
about it right, and in somedegree, like I think I would be
like take ownership right, likeI did this because I told you I
would do it and that's what Itruly thought it was going to be
.
At the same time, like I'velearned now that, um, sexually,
he's going to like for this inthe future.
If we want to do him so I thinkit's worth having going through
(17:24):
the maybe what might feel likehumbling or tail between the leg
kind of conversation.
Carissa McCall (17:31):
Yeah, and I've been going through that, I think
, a lot just in the last fewmonths, just making a transition
from marketing ops to rev ops.
There are things that Iunderstand, the basis of what I
need to do.
I have the technical skill andability to do these things, but
some of these projects it's myfirst time doing them before I
can do my best to estimate, butit's like that's where it's
(17:53):
constantly like learning andit's being as real as you can,
but sometimes you're still goingto be like well underestimated.
That one, yeah.
Michael Hartmann (18:00):
So I think that's part of learning right.
Carissa McCall (18:02):
Yeah, that's just growing in your career, I
think, and doing new things anddoing hard things.
Michael Hartmann (18:07):
Yeah, so you've got a team.
Now, a lot of what we've talkedabout so far is, especially if
you're a team of one, or evenjust a really small team, right
where you're mostly a heavyplayer and coach.
It's a matter of managing yourown time.
Yeah, hopefully having somecontrol over your own calendar.
But then when you start havinga team, how are you trying to
(18:31):
help the team overall manage thepriorities and the commitments,
and maybe even helping themmanage their own time and
calendar personally?
Carissa McCall (18:40):
I ask a lot because I make educated guesses
on what's realistic, um, youknow, especially for somebody.
But in reality something couldtake me 45 minutes and take
another person 20 minutes.
Everybody works at differentspeeds sometimes, so I always
ask is this realistic?
Is this due date realistic?
Is this timeline realistic?
(19:01):
This is what I think isinvolved.
Am I missing anything?
Am I not thinking of somethingNever being so far removed that
you lose the thought of how muchwork is this for somebody else?
And like, did I give themknowing, like rough idea of
their calendar?
What other priorities, whatother things are due around the
same time?
What could go wrong with thosethings that are happening at the
same time?
(19:21):
But am I being realistic?
Am I being fair?
I ask that a lot.
Michael Hartmann (19:25):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of a certain personal
time management approach, rightBased on Franklin Covey model.
Do you use anything like thatfor your personal time
management?
Carissa McCall (19:35):
What is that?
I'm sure I have a rough idea.
I might know.
Michael Hartmann (19:38):
Well so, if you're familiar with the seven
habits of highly effectivepeople, yes.
Okay.
So Stephen Covey wrote that Yep, so Franklin Covey planners.
I had one for years, probablysomewhere sitting in the stack
of stuff around my feet becauseI'm so organized.
It was all paper-based right,but part of it was it was very
much about integrating scheduledthings and like to-dos right.
(20:01):
I think a lot of peoplestruggle with if it's the to-dos
don't get handled, especiallyif you don't manage your
calendar right, because you needto allocate time to do them,
even small things.
So it's a framework formanaging that and a lot of it's
based on principles from theseven habits.
It's not the only one right.
I mean.
There are other ways of doingit.
There are certainly ways fordoing prioritization of action
(20:22):
items or to-dos that arepersonal, like Eisenhower matrix
and things like that.
Carissa McCall (20:29):
I don't use a specific framework, but I found
something that works for me andthat's stacking a lot of my
meetings like towards thebeginning of the week, because I
realized some people canmultitask really well.
Michael Hartmann (20:42):
Some people.
Carissa McCall (20:42):
I can't focus on more than one thing at a time.
But with that being said,that's kind of the point is I
need focus time.
I can't like if I have 15minutes in between my next
meeting.
I had a boss one time and shewas I mean, she's incredible
Like one of the best people I'veever had the pleasure to work
for.
She could just do all theselike with 15, like in between
meetings or 30 minutes and likeshe was so efficient.
(21:04):
But I really overthink thingssometimes and I know that I do
that.
So I've got to have at least anhour block if I want to do
something productive, and sowhat I've started doing is
having like larger blocks in themorning.
My brain works best in themorning.
I'm an early morning person.
Michael Hartmann (21:24):
This is why we get alone.
Carissa McCall (21:27):
Like I know some people that they can think
really well on deep projectslike late at night, and I'm just
like I am in bed by eight.
I'm asleep by 8 30, like that'show I function I wish I could
say that so.
so the early morning stuff likesometimes I will do a few things
before work hours if I need,like, absolute quiet and I need
(21:47):
to focus on something.
But starting to block mycalendar from nine to 11 ish to
try to have real deep focus time, I've been able to get some
really cool stuff done.
Michael Hartmann (21:57):
It's trying to understand yourself and it's
your calendar that helps youcontrol your calendar, which I
have regularly tried to likeblock time on a daily basis, and
then shit comes up and I, I get, I give in, I give in, yeah, so
yeah, if you like, started totrain the rest of the people
that you work with.
Like, this is my focus time.
(22:19):
So, unless it's really reallyyou know, honor this for me
please, so I can get big, likebig, deep thinking stuff done
yeah it.
Carissa McCall (22:26):
It's like I when I started requesting teammates,
like hey, can I move this call?
Can I move this call?
I'm trying to have blocks oftime where I can just focus on
projects, like basically, I'llget all the to-dos from the
meeting like early in the week,and then I've got time to do the
things that I anticipatedcorrectly of, like what's going
to come out of those meetings.
I actually have time to do thethings and it's like it's not
(22:48):
perfect and I am not perfect atthis, but this is what I try to
do and I think I can roughly doit like 75% of the time, and so
it allows me to be productive ina way that like is helpful for
me.
I'm like I'm using my bestbrain time on meetings in the
morning, like something's got togive, and so I started moving
things around a little.
(23:12):
We joked one time it was backwhen I worked at the agency.
Actually I told someone onetime I'm like I do my best
automation at like 530 in themorning.
It's just better, my brain'sjust sharper.
I've had my first cup of coffee.
I'm happy about the day.
Michael Hartmann (23:23):
So what's really interesting to me is like
I don't think a lot of peoplepay attention to those signals
from their bodies.
Everybody is a little different.
This is one of the things.
Instagram, tiktok oh, do this,get up at five in the morning.
It doesn't work for everybody.
I'm an early morning person.
I also struggle in the middleof the afternoon.
If we weren't talking, I wouldbe really struggling.
(23:44):
It's mid-afternoon for me.
It's warm, but then I'll getanother boost of energy in the
late evening.
So the problem for me is likesleep is a problem for me.
Right, that's like, but I, it'sjust how my body works.
But I think a lot of peopledon't pay like.
If they paid more attention tothat and then try to take back a
little more control andactually had the again, it kind
(24:05):
of comes back to beingtransparent with the people you
work with.
If you want the best for me,like this is what I think will
work best.
I think your point about likethe goal is not a hundred
percent.
The goal is whatever, 75%, 50%,like, don't overdo it.
Carissa McCall (24:19):
It's something to work towards.
Another thing about theplanning and all the project
management stuff too I'm likesometimes they were just made
quickly from a meeting and I'mlike I got to do that by Friday
and I know I do, but it's goingto take me maybe 45 minutes.
Those larger projects, likethose big rocks that are like
related to your KPIs, like theyrequire very thoughtful
consideration and like time onthe calendar that's needed and
(24:41):
necessary for them.
Michael Hartmann (24:44):
Okay, so, all that said, right, then, how do
you?
I think there's two variants ofthis, and we could cover one at
a time if you want, but there's, like we all have experience
where you get unexpectedhigh-priority requests or ones
that that someone thinks areurgent and high priority, but
(25:06):
maybe right.
How do you handle those?
Both in terms of like, how doyou handle reacting to those and
assessing which of those theyfall into?
And then, second, like, how doyou then both like?
I think there's two parts tothis.
Right, you're gonna have toadjust what you've committed to.
Probably, maybe, if you're ableto.
Sometimes you can't.
This is where you put in extraeffort and you need to
(25:27):
communicate what that impact isto others who things might be
affected.
Carissa McCall (25:31):
Yeah, with those , the urgent requests that come
in, I the first thing I thinkabout is, if I don't get this
done in the next handful of days, or two to three days, like
whatever it is that the personasked for, like from the urgency
point of view, is that going toaffect pipeline?
(25:52):
Is it going to affect businessthat we can win?
Is it like, what is it going toaffect if I delay it more?
So, like, sometimes I can makethat choice and I ask for a.
I'm like you know, ask for adifferent date, you know live
date on the task versus what wasasked for.
If you're not sure, there isnothing wrong with asking your
(26:16):
boss, your manager, like there's, there's nothing wrong with
that at all, and I actually dothat often.
I think, when I'm not a hundredpercent, sure% sure, I'll build
out a list.
I'm like okay, if we want toget this done by Friday, say, if
it's a Monday, I want to getthis done by Friday.
Here's what I'm thinking.
(26:36):
I need to deprioritize in orderto do that and to have time to
do it, and I'll literally justsend that as a message.
Is there anything I'mmisreading or misjudging here?
And that's a completely okayapproach to do that.
We have a rough idea of whatshould be pushed aside, like
what can be lower priority, butsometimes, depending on the week
and what's going on, sometimesI'm not sure.
(26:58):
I just need a gut check.
This is what I think, but Ineed somebody's feedback.
Michael Hartmann (27:02):
Sometimes I think, if your experience is
like mine, sometimes you gothrough that list and you're
like actually nothing can push.
Carissa McCall (27:07):
And that's just how it is sometimes.
Michael Hartmann (27:09):
Yeah.
Carissa McCall (27:10):
Yeah, and that's okay too.
And you know what, when stufflike that happens, make sure you
have a couple of things plannedthat week, like outside of work
, that you are looking forwardto, that make you happy, that
are important to you, like sayyou know what, I'm going to make
(27:30):
this really big push on thisproject and like Friday morning
I'm going to go get my favoritecoffee from my favorite coffee
shop, like that's what I've done.
That it's like you know, like Ihad a teammate, like she said
one time she's like always havesomething to look forward to
because, like you know,sometimes we work really hard,
like all of us work really hardin our jobs, and like we want to
do good things, we want to dogood quality things and
(27:51):
sometimes like that extra time.
Sometimes it all does have toget done, but if you're saying
like I'm going to reward myself,like for all you know, extra
hard work, it's just the littlethings in life.
Michael Hartmann (27:56):
Yeah, that's not what I thought you were
going to say, because I don'tthink it's a bad thing.
This is something I struggledwith until later in my career.
But I think it's important tobe vocal about the heroics that
you just did, right, make surepeople know that this was above
and beyond the norm, so thatit's not perceived as the way
(28:16):
it's just going to be.
For two reasons One, like youshould be proud of that when it
goes well.
Just like feel badly if youhave any care about the work at
all, if you didn't do something,you might as well get the
credit for doing heroic stufftoo.
I don't think enough of us doenough.
Like I think we just there's alot of people who are probably
listening and I was this way too.
Like this is just part, this isjust part of the job, right,
(28:39):
and yes, that may be true.
At the same time, it doesn'tmean that it's not out of the
ordinary for what you should beexpected.
Carissa McCall (28:47):
Yeah, and I think you bring up a really good
point.
Sometimes I'm just like nope, Ineeded to get this done.
This week I sat on my couchwith my little laptop desk early
in the morning and I turned onNew Girl and I had a good cup of
coffee and I got the work done.
You know a few mornings in arow to make sure it got done and
(29:08):
sometimes you don't think aboutwhoa, that was a lot Like.
I did a lot there.
That was good to accomplishthat.
So, it's a good reminder, thanks.
Michael Hartmann (29:12):
Yeah, and I know like one thing I started
doing I don't know how manyyears ago, especially as a
leader.
I would both do it for peopleon my team, but also for people
who were on other teams thatworked for me or did work I
worked with.
If I thought they had goneabove and beyond, I would
literally write an email totheir boss telling them if it
(29:33):
was somebody worked for me, Iwould send it to my boss right
like talking about the the thingthey had done.
Um, because I think it's like Idon't think people get enough
of that right, especially inthis world.
It feels like you get attentionwhen things don't go well, not
when they do.
Carissa McCall (29:47):
For sure.
Michael Hartmann (29:49):
So ninety, nine good things and one bad,
and then that's the.
That's when the guns arepointed at you, figuratively.
Well, whenever.
Carissa McCall (29:57):
I think when you ask others that don't work in
ops, how do you see operationsas successful?
And a lot of people will tellyou when I don't know if
anything wrong happened, If Idon't hear anything, that's how
I know it's working and it'slike that is the truth of it.
That's usually the way peoplethink about it.
So we are the behind the scenesautomation process wizards.
Michael Hartmann (30:23):
The only flaw in that is if people are talking
about it negatively behind thescenes and you don't know about
it, I can't do anything.
OK, so true, yes and no, I don'ttotally agree.
But I'll set that aside for now, because I think this next
question I had may get into thisa little bit, which is you and
(30:46):
I have known each other for nowfor a while, and I think one of
the things that you probablywent through as a lot of people
do, especially as they get inleadership kinds of roles is
having to advocate for your team, and sometimes that means
saying no to people and requestsor not.
Now, how have you gotten usedto doing that?
Do you have a general approachor does it case by case basis?
(31:09):
Do you feel more comfortablewith that now?
Carissa McCall (31:11):
No, I don't think I'll ever be comfortable
with it.
I still have to work on it likeevery day, and I think that's a
me thing and I'm sure otherpeople like feel that too.
But when your personality canbe geared toward just people
pleasing in general, personally,professionally, it is just
guilty.
I'm so terrible, but I'm justlike, oh, we could go to that
(31:35):
restaurant Totally, and I just Iwill go with the flow and I
don't like harbor any resentmentfrom going with the flow.
Like, want people others to behappy, but in my work, my work
is so important to me, like Iput so much of myself into that,
and so I want people to behappy with my work.
I want to make their jobseasier.
I want to make their liveseasier, and so I'm like, if I
(31:58):
don't do this, what if it makestheir life harder?
What if it makes their jobharder?
And so I go through thatthought process.
But I think usually the advicethat I've gotten from other ops
folks and other leaders thatI've talked to and so you know
this is the, I think, bestpractice and what I'm still
working on always is ask morequestions.
(32:20):
When someone asks you forsomething and it's like you're
not necessarily sure if itshould be prioritized or not, if
it's something we should everdo or not.
Ask the questions of like, bynot having this, what is this
not allowing you to do today?
Is this affecting your team'sability to track their progress
(32:41):
or reach their goals?
Is it affecting, like ourability to build pipeline.
Is it affecting our like?
There are so many questionsthat you could start asking.
So I'll do like a 15 minuteconversation with someone when
they submit, like we have I madelike a Slack request channel
where they like submit a littleform and then I can easily make
the task in Asana and I likehaving that little queue system.
(33:02):
But usually when someonesubmits something and it's like
something I need a little bitmore information about, I'll
book like 15 minutes with themjust to talk about it.
I'm like help me understand,like, what's going on.
Like what is this hurting rightnow?
Like how is this affecting yourteam?
How is it affecting, like youknow, your day to day?
Because I think the better Ican understand that I can
sympathize and understand likehow prior know high priority is
(33:26):
this and usually by gettingsomeone to talk about it, they
can also realize if it's not thehighest priority thing in the
world or not.
Michael Hartmann (33:35):
Um, it's trying to make each party
understand it a little bit moreyeah, I think the idea of having
this is the value of havingsome sort of cue and a form,
kind of like there's stillpeople who tend to not go
through that process, right?
sure ceo vp, like what they'regoing to come to you maybe like
directly, and so the one I thinksuggestion I would have in
(33:58):
those cases, like your thoughtson this is because you may not
be ready for that, they may nothave the questions ready at hand
is just to maybe ask forclarification, understand the
scope of it, but then ask forsome time to consider it and
become back with more questionsright before committing to
anything.
Carissa McCall (34:18):
Yeah, I think that's a great idea, cause then
that's how you also avoidsituations of fighting off more
than you need to at one time say, yep, I'll get that to you
Thursday, I'll get that to youFriday, and then, like, you get
to it and you're like I shouldhave thought through this a
little bit more.
Michael Hartmann (34:35):
And even if you're not given because they
still believe it's a super highurgent thing, right.
Even if you get a few hours,that can be enough, right.
That obviously might affectwhat your day was planned out to
be and the things that you weregoing to do during that time.
Yeah, but if you got put in thatposition and you had to commit
right there and then thattotally shoots the entire week,
(34:58):
right rails thing it gives you achance to put some thought
around it, to clarify yourunderstanding, any outstanding
questions and then also theimpact right, which, which is
the part that gets missed.
There are people out there, I'msure, who have this great
memory for everything that's inthe queue right and it's active,
but that is not me.
I'd want to be able to go backand look at that.
Most people that I'veencountered not all, but most
(35:21):
are reasonable about it, right,they give you a little bit of
time to do that.
Carissa McCall (35:23):
Yeah, Just to think through it, Cause I'm a
lot of time only if there arethings that we've done on repeat
, like those repeatableprocesses that we have like
ingrained in our brain, like howlong it'll take you.
But if someone's asking you todo something new, like I think
that's a great idea to just takethe time, take a couple hours,
go write it on a piece of paper,draw it out see how long it
(35:44):
will realistically take to dothis and that way, you're
properly setting expectationstoo yeah, when I think this does
, it signals some maturity,right, and
Michael Hartmann (35:55):
not immediate reaction I think we all have
heard right.
A lot of people in marketingops in particular say like they
feel like they're just tasktakers or task doers, and some
of that perception can bechanged.
If you do that Now, just sayingno flat out right, that's not
going to do it.
That will not end well either.
You can't go all the way to theother extreme, but there is a
(36:17):
place in the middle that ifyou're not used to doing it
right, it's going to take sometime to figure out how to do it
well.
Carissa McCall (36:24):
Yeah, like my version of that right now.
When someone tells me likesomething is medium or low
priority and ask when do wethink we can get to this, I say
I need to look at the rest ofour backlog and I need to look
at the rest of our plannedprojects and I will get back to
you as soon as I have anestimated date and we'll talk
more then.
Michael Hartmann (36:42):
I just can't bring myself to say no.
Carissa McCall (36:44):
I just say not yet, not right now, but we will
totally talk about it very soon.
I usually try to talk about itsometime in the next, you know,
two to three weeks, because Idon't want anyone to feel like
their problem's not important oranything.
Michael Hartmann (36:56):
But what you are saying is yes to considering
it.
Carissa McCall (36:58):
Yep, consider everything, like every request,
because no one's asking forsomething like unreasonable that
it's not feasible as to whythey would want something like
that.
Michael Hartmann (37:09):
Most of the time I haven't heard anything
like that in my experience.
So it's funny For a short periodof my career I was in sales and
one of the things I learned, ora mental model, is that when a
prospect says no, the bestsalespeople don't hear.
No, they hear not now.
And I think the flip of that isif you're telling somebody not
(37:32):
now, right, they're not hearing.
No either, they're hearingthere's a chance.
And if you're, especially ifyou're saying not now, but I'll
get back to you in X period oftime to give you something more
definitive, then a lot of peopleare just looking for that Now.
Carissa McCall (37:46):
Eventually you have to commit right, yeah, but
I do need the time to thinkabout it, because maybe there's,
maybe there's a solution likealready sort of in place that
could help, like maybe there'ssomething already available and
I just don't know, um, and Ineed to go figure it out, right,
but it's just giving yourselfthe time to think about it.
It is a great approach to that.
Michael Hartmann (38:07):
I love it.
I think this has been a greatconversation that a lot of our
folks in our audience are goingto get a lot of benefit from.
So thank you, carissa.
Yeah, so if folks do want toreach out to you or learn more
about what you're doing, or ifyou're active, you are in the
community or on social media butwhat's the best way for them to
do that?
Carissa McCall (38:26):
Yeah, you can send me a LinkedIn connection
request.
My name is Carissa McCall.
I am the director of RevOps atLiquibase.
You can go to the Liquibasecompany page and probably find
me that way too.
Michael Hartmann (38:36):
There you go.
All right, awesome Again.
Thank you, carissa.
Thanks to all of our long-timeand new-term listeners and
soon-to-be watchers, so weappreciate your support, as
always.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
you can reach out to Naomi, mikeor me, and we'd be happy to get
the ball rolling on that Untilnext time.
Bye, everybody.
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