November 3, 2025 • 43 mins
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In this episode of OpsCast, hosted by Michael Hartmann and powered by MarketingOps.com, we are joined by Danielle Balestra, a seasoned fractional marketing technology executive with experience building teams and stacks in both regulated and non-regulated industries.
The conversation examines the requirements for running effective marketing operations in highly regulated industries, including finance, healthcare, and legal services. Danielle shares her insights on working within compliance constraints, earning trust across teams, and building a marketing operations function that strikes a balance between agility and accountability.
In this episode, you will learn:
- What makes regulated industries unique from a marketing operations perspective
- The skills and mindsets needed to succeed in compliance-heavy environments
- How to collaborate effectively with legal and compliance teams
- Strategies for balancing marketing speed with regulatory requirements
This episode is ideal for marketing operations professionals, leaders, and consultants who work in or with regulated industries and want to strengthen collaboration, compliance, and operational excellence.
Episode Brought to You By MO Pros
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals
Ops Cast is brought to you in partnership with Emmie Co, an incredible group of consultants leading the top brands in all things Marketing Operations. Check the mount at Emmieco.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Hartmann (00:25):
Hello everyone, welcome to another
episode of Opscast, brought toyou by MarketingOps.com and
powered by all the MoPros outthere.
I'm your host, Michael Hartman,Flying Solo, as we are getting
closer and closer to Moss Blueza2025, which unfortunately I'm
not going to be at.
So if you're going to be there,I'm I'm I'm in jealousy mode
right now.
So the FOMO is real.
(00:47):
All right.
But today we are exploring whatit takes to build and run
effective marketing operationsin highly regulated industries.
So think finance, healthcare,legal services, things like
that.
To do that, my guest isDanielle Balestra, a seasoned
fractional marketing technologyexecutive who has built stacks
and teams across both regulatedand non-regulated environments.
(01:07):
She and I are going to diveinto the unique challenges of
operating within legal andcompliance constraints, how to
earn trust across functions, andwhat leaders should look for
when building an ops team thatworks well.
Either within the with orwithout those constraints.
So, Danielle, welcome to theshow.
Thank you, Michael.
I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah, this is this is fun.
I'm glad we could do it.
(01:28):
All right.
Well, let's start startingmaybe big picture here.
Um what do you, especiallysince you've been in both
regulated and not as regulatedindustries, like what's what
makes highly regulatedindustries unique when it comes
to parking and marketingoperations?
Danielle Balestra (01:46):
A lot of the technology you're working with
in the highly regulated industrymight still be on-prem.
And if you think about it, itmakes sense because they have
very sensitive data, either behealth records or your banking
account information.
Um so they kept a lot of thatinformation in their own servers
and they maintained them there.
So there's firewalls.
And to build these customexperiences, you have to be very
(02:09):
um creative about how to getinformation from the secure
locations without compromisingany data security, but still
giving our customers a reallygood experience.
So that's a huge hurdle thatyou have, and you have to be
willing to try new thingsbecause the normal playbooks of
like just plug and play an APIin might not work.
Michael Hartmann (02:32):
Right.
Oh, it's gonna make issuesdifferent.
Danielle Balestra (02:37):
No, not gonna work for you.
You might be hearing words likeFTP um FSTP sites, and you're
gonna be like, what are youtalking about?
Yep.
You might be sending cold uhCSV files from one server to
another.
You're gonna be making um, youknow, codes or a little um I'm
missing the word today, butyou're gonna be making code
(02:59):
codes that can actually connectum and take away identifying
information from uh your on-premserver to um, you know, your
cloud-based information.
So a lot of creativity there.
The other big difference is thespeed to approving a vendor.
So because of those securityhurdles, every technology you're
(03:22):
gonna need to approve or bringon board can take anywhere from
nine months to over a year toget cleared.
So a lot of those um highlyregulated companies will be
looking at platforms that havemultiple um offerings uh for you
to use as a service.
Michael Hartmann (03:38):
Oh, yeah.
Danielle Balestra (03:39):
So because if you're gonna commit to a vendor
You're gonna be going with anAdobe, a Salesforce, an SAP, an
Oracle.
Like that's usually where theyum where it's easiest because
they have mo the most offeringsacross the board um with their
products.
So, and for somebody who needsthose services, it's easier to
just pull something that'salready approved as a vendor.
(04:00):
Whereas, you know, if you'redoing a point solution, they
have to be really strong andthey have to be very secure.
Like you need to know thatthey're not gonna be sold in six
months or um change their theircompany name.
Like a lot of those things cancause major disruptions on the
onboarding of a new tech.
Michael Hartmann (04:18):
Yeah.
I I I I suspect there's gonnabe a number of people listening
to this episode that they'relike, hey, what does SFTP mean?
Well, we're gonna leave that asa mystery for them, right?
We can.
Um I'm familiar with it.
Still use it occasionally, uh,believe it or not.
So in not even in a highlyregulated environment, but a big
(04:40):
organization.
So all right, so maybe let'stalk about this like that's
really eye-opening because Ithink my assumption of what you
were gonna say was gonna bearound uh having to deal with um
things like legal review ofmarketing materials, right?
Which is kind of annoying.
Danielle Balestra (04:58):
I mean, that's there.
I mean that's that that'sthere, but I think for managing
your full stack, it's not that'snot that's not part of it.
The the harder thing is to getthe tools you need in-house
first.
Michael Hartmann (05:10):
Yeah.
Danielle Balestra (05:11):
Once they're there, I'm gonna say honestly,
the relationships you can buildwith your compliance officers
and your legal teams canactually make things move
faster.
Like when I was working at abank, we had two different
compliance groups.
There was one for theconsumer-facing materials, and
there was one that was for ourcommercial-facing materials.
(05:32):
And we worked out um differentsort of checklists and
processes.
We knew what we could or couldnot say in our communications
and emails.
Things were sent um andreviewed, and you know, we we
moved things along quickly, andit was an easy enough call for
me to pick up the phone and andreach out to any of those
compliance officers if anythinggot stuck.
Michael Hartmann (05:52):
Yeah.
Danielle Balestra (05:53):
So to me, that's actually like not as big
of a hurdle.
Michael Hartmann (05:57):
And I know the point, you know, if you're
that's actually really a bigdeal, right, these days.
Danielle Balestra (06:02):
So Well, you I mean, everyone would think
everybody's in the cloud, butthat's not the case.
Michael Hartmann (06:07):
Right.
Yeah.
You still have server roomswith like heavy, heavy locks on
them and stuff, right?
So a lot of air conditioning.
A lot of air conditioning.
Um very interesting stuff.
Yeah.
All right.
So let's take it down maybe tothe level of if you if you've
got people who are thinkingabout or maybe about to go into
(06:28):
an organization that's in ahighly regulated industry, like
from a mops team structure.
So like how does like how doesthat affect um like what you
look for in team members'structure, the way you operate?
Danielle Balestra (06:43):
I'm looking for people who are very much
learner mindsets.
So what I mean by that is whenI talk to an individual, if they
are confused why there's an opsteam within this industry, that
to me is a little like redwarning flag.
Because what you want to haveis you want to have somebody
that can take the principles ofmarketing operations, being it
(07:05):
either processes or just, youknow, data principles, have that
base, but now apply it to whatmight be more relationship
focused.
So a lot of these highlyregulated industries, like your
bank doesn't think of ityourself in your um in your own
shoes when it comes to bankingor your medical provider.
You're not concerned aboutbeing passed on to be sold for
(07:28):
more services.
Like your health is yourhealth.
Like you need to know importantthings about the conditions you
might are be concerned aboutthat either have or genetically,
you know, potentially couldhave.
Michael Hartmann (07:41):
Right.
Danielle Balestra (07:41):
You don't want them passing your
information on to certain peopleor, you know, trying to
encourage you to go get thistesting or this whatever.
So it's just it's more aboutrelationship, building trust,
making people feel comfortablewith your, you know, you as a
service provider.
And with that, you know, you'regonna have to take different
principles to that data.
But the the foundations are allthe same.
(08:03):
Like you still need to havedata knowledge, you need to have
be able to build systems,you're gonna have to connect
systems in a really unique way.
So that's why I said thecreativeness is very important.
Um, so those are the thingsthat um if somebody's looking to
come into it, they need to besort of open and curious, want
to know what they can learn inthis space, what they can apply
(08:25):
from their previous experiences.
There will be no SDRs, therewill be no sales team, there
will be a different people whoare getting this information.
And it's important for them.
So creating a unifiedexperience, that's really
important.
So, how do you get into thedata, making sure all the data
is in a state where you have oneperson represented for whatever
(08:46):
services they're supposed to bereceiving or whatever products
they're receiving?
So it's a lot of conversationswith different groups.
Um, but again, being curious,being open.
And then what type of umchallenges the organization
have?
Are they trying to build theirmarketing tech stack?
Do they have one existing andit's challenged and it's not
(09:06):
giving the right customerexperience?
So I did recently identify somedifferent personas to help
people understand where theycould sit and what they are
excited about.
So depending on where theorganization is, those different
personas make sense.
So you'd have to, in yourinterviewing process, find out
like, are you introducing newtechnology?
How long has the technologyyou've had on hand been there
(09:29):
and how well is it working?
Because that will tell you, arethey looking for a builder?
Are they looking for somebodyto come and fix something that's
broken?
Those are very important.
So that will help give youthat.
The data analysts, everyone'sneeding to get insights.
So that's very important.
And it's even more so becausethere's different data places,
like I said, on-prem versus inthe cloud.
(09:50):
And then hopefully you'regetting a leader who's helping
guide you through it as astrategist.
So that's what I think when itcomes to moving into this space
and what to be looking for.
Michael Hartmann (10:02):
Right.
So um, so one thing youmentioned in that uh you talked
about in the banking world whereyou have the consumer, right,
retail banking clients andcommercial banking clients.
But two different things,right?
One's more of a cut B2C, one'smaybe more B2B.
Uh I depend I I see them in thelike the medical world,
(11:24):
depending on where like theremight be a similar thing where
you need to be able to straddleboth of those.
Is that another like you need ayou need people who can kind of
go between like consumer-facingstuff and be more B2B facing
stuff and kind of go there?
And if this is where I don'tknow, like are the tool sets
different for those?
Danielle Balestra (11:46):
Not usually.
So, you know, when I was at thecommercial bank, we used the
same marketing automationplatform across everything.
The difference was the datasources we were working off of.
So like some of them were salesfacing, like um, almost like
sales facing.
So they did have Salesforce.
So you'd have a commercialbanker or you'd have, you know,
these different, like we hadequipment financing.
(12:07):
So we'd have equipment financebankers there.
So those people were usingSalesforce.
But when it came to like theactual um consumer side, those
were all in data warehouses andin data secure places.
So like that's a wholedifferent world.
And we had to work with ourdata science team on doing
insights and information.
The principles are all stillthere.
(12:28):
Like, what everyone has sometype of goal?
Like, are we trying to increaseuh account openings?
Are we trying to increasebalances?
Are we trying to increaseloans?
Uh, what are the goals?
And then you just work witheach data team.
It's fun because it'schallenging.
It's almost like working for acouple of different companies at
once when you work through thatspectrum of B2B, B2C.
(12:51):
Um not every bank's the same.
Some of them don't offer thatwide, you know, breadth of uh,
you know, services.
The the healthcare isinteresting from my experience
because it was it was aprovider, so it was a hospital.
Michael Hartmann (13:06):
Right.
Danielle Balestra (13:07):
But when you think about the hospital
operating, there's so manystakeholders that are in place.
So you have the patients, youhave the caregivers, but you
also have the doctors.
And we had this amazingreferral program that we were
able to trace like where um mostof our referrals were coming
from.
And we established sort of likea doctor-to-docker referral
(13:27):
like meeting.
So like we try and increase therelationships of the doctors in
those regions with our doctorson on hand so that they could
refer patients as things came upfor us to help them with.
So that was like a veryinteresting B2B type of play in
a B2C world.
So that's why this is a funcreative space.
(13:48):
If you're willing and you feelconfident with your base
knowledge, like this is a reallyinteresting experience uh to
play as a marking opsprofessional.
Michael Hartmann (13:56):
Yeah, it's that's a really interesting
scenario there.
So um you've kind of maybetouched on this a little bit
though, but like what like froma culture standpoint, um, I
think a lot of people listeningfeels like we have are heavy in
this community uh that leantoward SaaS or tech companies or
early states, things like that,right?
(14:17):
So there's like uh probablycultural norms that are there.
Uh what are you what have youseen in terms of maybe whether
it's between regulated andnon-regulated or um across the
different regulated industrieswhere you've seen, like what are
the cultural things that you'veseen that are maybe different
and how those might affect opsprofessionals when they when
they're in them in those?
Danielle Balestra (14:38):
I don't know it's if it's so much regulated
versus non-regulated, but itwhat I did notice a difference
is when you go from like 50 or70 employees or 120 employees to
4,000 or 7,000 or 16,000employees.
That's like that's a hugedifference.
And when you're in a small andmighty team, everyone can be a
little bit matrixed and everyoneunderstands each other's roles
(14:58):
and they're just running andgoing at whatever the direction
is that the company's givingthem.
When you're in enterprise, whenyou're in a large organization,
even the department you'resitting in might be very siloed.
So, you know, when I was at thehealthcare organization, there
was over 157 people in themarketing department and
communications department.
(15:19):
That's a big department.
So like you have to feelcomfortable with networking and
talking to people.
Hopefully, you have a gooddirector in charge who is, you
know, sort of guiding andcreating paths for you to meet
others and to find opportunitiesfor you to help with.
Um, that's why I liked workingin the enterprise environments,
(15:40):
is like you can start findingnew projects within your own
company and share the value ofthis technology you're investing
in that they don't even knowabout.
Um, my joke was like I used tolove going to, we had
ServiceNow, one of my umemployers, and all the
technology was listed in there.
So I'd find out like whatMartech other divisions have and
(16:01):
call them and be like, hey, Isee that you're using XYZ.
Could we have a conversation?
Because I would like to see ifwe can expand it to my division.
So I mean, like it's a verydifferent experience.
You have to be a little bitmore uh open to having
conversations.
It can be very siloed, andthat's where it gets to feel
like a little likeclaustrophobic because you want
(16:22):
to be helpful for theorganization.
Um, but sometimes people feellike they have to stay in a
lane.
But really, most people arewilling and open to having uh,
you know, work on projects.
One of the best projects I hadwas I found about found out
about in the in the coffee room.
And when I was working in thebank, like it just I kept
hearing the word Salesforce.
(16:42):
I'm like, who's talking aboutSalesforce over here?
And I introduced myself to themand say, oh, I'm in charge of
the marketing automationplatforms that are connected to
your system.
What are you guys doing there?
So like that was like a naturallead.
And not that I think a lot ofpeople are in the same building
anymore, but that was a greatway to like meet more and
expand.
So it's really the size and thesilos that are probably the
(17:05):
biggest cultural challenge thatI've seen.
Michael Hartmann (17:10):
It's funny, you and I were talking before we
started hitting the recordbutton about how I actually miss
being in an office, right?
And it's it's part of it isthose kinds of scenarios where
you just sort ofserendipitously, you know, have
conversations or walk in on aconversation that can have kind
of you know minor or majorimpacts to you know what you're
(17:31):
doing or your career.
I'm curious though, like all Iwhat what you're saying about
like um networking, havingconversations all resonates with
me.
I suspect there's gonna bepeople who are listening who are
gonna be um whether they'retelling themselves a story or
not, right?
It's like I'm more of likethat's uncomfortable, I don't
(17:51):
know what to say.
Like, do you have any tips forhow to how to kind of how to
approach that if they're maybefeel like they're an introvert
or whatever?
Danielle Balestra (18:03):
I would say just start small.
Don't go feel like you need totalk to everybody.
Just try and have like a coffeemeeting.
Like if your organizationoffers something like that, I
don't know how big theorganizations are, but like I
think about I used to help outat Amex um as a consultant and
they used to have the coffee uhchats.
They had a bowl, and you putyour information in the bowl,
(18:25):
and people would pullinformation out and they would
call you and just have a randomconversation.
So depending on like whatorganization you're in, like
there used to be a Slack channelfor a marketing ops community
that used to do this thingcalled donut where they would
just randomly uh, you know,bring you to somebody else.
So I think just start small,just try and meet one person.
(18:45):
And if anything, the bestquestion to ask is do you
recommend me speak to anybodyelse so that you have a warm
introduction to the next personin the organization?
Um, me is I've always beenballsy.
So I'm like, oh hey, yeah,these are the five people that I
need to talk to.
I'm just gonna get on theircalendar.
And I would start with anemail, and if they don't
respond, I put a meeting.
(19:06):
And some people like that's thething, like you don't know how
they're gonna react.
Some people don't respond toemails.
Some people are happy that youput a meeting on and they're
like, Thank you for setting thisup.
And you're just like, I emailedyou three times, but you're
welcome.
Michael Hartmann (19:21):
Yeah.
When you do something likethat, this is getting very
tactical, but do you do like 15minutes, 30 minutes, an hour?
Danielle Balestra (19:31):
It depends on what the conversation is.
If it's really for me tounderstand tactically what the
what they're doing, what they'retrying to achieve, what their
department goal is, I try andleave longer time because I also
want to share a little bitabout myself, not just be like,
give me all your information andthank you.
Bye.
Like I also plan on, you know,sharing why I reached out, what
(19:52):
I'm trying to figure out, andwhy I, you know, this is
important for us to have aconversation.
So, you know, there are greatbooks out there about also just
networking.
Um, it's funny, I just read TheLong Game by Dory Clark.
And uh she talks about likelong-term goals.
So, like it some of it might berelevant in the work
(20:13):
environment, but it is good forjust general networking, uh,
just about like how to workthrough that and how to use it
not just like as a like atransactional experience, but
more as a relationship buildingexperience.
Michael Hartmann (20:25):
Yeah.
I think the one thing I mightadd to your idea there is you
know, you're probably alreadyinteracting with a number of
people that are outside of yourkind of core area, right?
So like there's already aconnection, right?
And so reaching out and askingfor, hey, I'd love to learn more
about what your day or weeklooks like and how we can maybe
(20:46):
learn from each other.
I think you know, there aregonna people be people who are
not interested in it, but Ithink my experience has been if
you ask, like people are mostpeople are more than willing to
share.
And actually they actuallyappreciate that.
Um and I like your point aboutlike trying to make it
reciprocal a little bit, likewhat can I do for you as well is
(21:08):
is is a good good thing.
And once you do that, like Imean the thing like what I what
I've what I've learned, um, andit's kind of a what I try to do
with my own children to somedegree is like the the anxiety
and fear about all the potentiallike things like that they may
say no, like like A, yeah, theymay, but like what's the worst?
Like that's you haven't lostanything if you do it in a
(21:31):
respectful way, right?
Danielle Balestra (21:33):
So you hope that they don't say no too,
because that also reflects onthem.
Like you hope they're open andwilling to share, but most
people are.
Most people are more than happyto share and talk about
themselves and help you out bygiving them giving you the
knowledge they have.
Michael Hartmann (21:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean I think that's thepoint, right?
It's like this is if all you dois dwell on all the worst case
scenario, right?
It's you're never gonna do itbecause it's like the fear of
that is is gonna overwhelm you.
But like I guess it's like youknow, strap on a little courage
and uh go make the ask.
Danielle Balestra (22:11):
I guess I guess the same thing applies if
you want to play with AI.
So I I hate to turn this intoAI, but the I know everyone's
talking about AI, but I'd betpeople are dabbling on it and
they are interested in it.
It's the same thing as learningfrom somebody else.
Like, there's no reason why,you know, just asking a
question.
It doesn't have to be a longconversation.
Like some executives I don'teven spend a full 15 minutes
(22:34):
with.
It's just like, hey, how areyou doing?
Or, you know, quick, quicklike, you know, questions.
They're happy to answer it, andthen you keep going.
And then you alreadyestablished a relationship.
So the next time you ask fortime, it's easier to get on
their calendar.
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (22:50):
Well, and I like it, it's interesting you
bring up AI because I have donethat myself.
Like I've been playing aroundwith it, but I see or hear other
people who seem to be furtheralong in that journey of
understanding it.
And I've reached out to people,it's like, hey, are you willing
to spend 30 minutes?
Like, yeah, help me acceleratemy learning.
Um and like my experience hasbeen what I expected, right?
(23:11):
They were more than willing todo that.
Um, there was a limit, and Ididn't want to crowd, you know,
uh ask more than I felt wasgood, but they were all well,
like I've learned from every oneof those.
So I I yeah, totally, totallyagree, agree agree with that.
Um all right, so let's go backto this whole like irregulated
(23:33):
industries, and you touched onthis about like compliance teams
and legal teams.
Um talked a little bit abouthow you've worked with them, at
least in one scenario.
Yeah, what I think there'sgonna be some people in
marketing or marketing ops whotry like avoid avoid the
attorneys, like like the plague.
(23:54):
Um which is weird for mebecause I'm married to an
attorney or a recoveringattorney, I should say.
Um and I've always I've beenfortunate that most places I've
been, I've had like high likegood attorneys and legal teams
and compliance teams to workwith who are yeah, in general,
like there's a line where theysay, no, absolutely no, we can't
(24:16):
do that, but most of the timethere's a lot of gray area and
they're willing to work with youin it.
So how have you approachedworking with those teams and
maybe guided the rest of yourteam on like as their as part of
their career progression,right?
To to build those kinds ofstrong proactive relationships
with those teams.
Danielle Balestra (24:36):
I always loved the um the legal teams.
I think as I'm also, eventhough I'm in this space, I am
very concerned about my ownpersonal data and my children's
data.
Like I'm very much like it'snot really for anyone to have
and to use.
I need to give it to you andyou need to have permission to
use it when it comes topersonal.
(24:57):
When it comes to commercial,like I do expect to get sold to
all day long about being amarketing operations executive.
Like that's fine.
I expect that.
Right.
Um, but I don't ex I do thinkthere are some spaces where we
should be respectful of our umcustomers or prospects.
And that's why I think I I cometo the legal teams and share
(25:19):
that like if a new regulationcame into effect, which I was in
highly regulated industrieswhen GDPR came into impact.
Michael Hartmann (25:26):
Yeah.
Danielle Balestra (25:27):
In a New York-based hospital, it's like,
why are we spending so muchtime?
It's because we did do a lot ofresearch.
Um, and we were working with uhinternational hospitals on the
research we were doing forcancer.
So GDPR was very important,more for the research piece, not
as much for the marketingpiece, but we were I still
participated.
(25:47):
I still sat with all the legalteam and I still talk to them
today.
They'll see me in the in GrandCentral every once in a while
and be like, hey, how are youdoing?
Uh so it was like we justestablished really good
relationships and they knew thatI was just as concerned about
providing a poor experience toour prospects and customers.
It made them feel comfortablewith myself and my team to know
(26:08):
that they could trust that we'renot gonna, you know, do
anything that would compromisethe organization's um position
in those data um regulations.
Um, same thing with when uh CDum, oh my god, it was the
California protection.
I'm now I'm forgetting myacronym.
Michael Hartmann (26:24):
I don't even remember what it is.
Is it CCPR?
Is that right?
Danielle Balestra (26:28):
Yes, something.
It I know it changed becausethere was like a data aspect to
it, but when that was going intoeffect, we had a California
bank and I was at a bank and wehad California clients.
So like we had to do it bothways because we had actual
organization in the state ofCalifornia, and then we had
clients in the state ofCalifornia, so we had to do a
whole bunch of fun things therewith how we were approaching
(26:51):
delete, um, how we had to keep,you know, for operational
purposes, certain aspects ofdelete.
So it was very interesting.
Again, right up there with our,you know, chief uh data privacy
officer working through theterms, working through how our
systems work, figuring out howwe could comply with those laws,
any regulator, um, anycomplaints, like we immediately
(27:13):
would take action on it.
So those I think I wasfortunate that I was there when
these regulations were comingout and worked very closely with
those teams and they knew howmuch I was concerned about it as
a consumer as well as a personoperating.
So I think that created someconfidence.
Um, I think we just need to beconscious of that.
Like even though this is dataand maybe you can have access to
(27:35):
it, but does the customer wantyou to have access to all of it?
Just take a seat, so just takea stop and think.
Like, we can't assume becauseyou know, Google's doing it,
that means it's right.
We need to think about what theperson on the receiving end
feels about it.
And they've indicated they'renot happy.
That's why these regulationsare coming about, because they
(27:55):
don't want you to just blanketemail them all day long or just
assume that you need a serviceor a product from them because
of XYZ item.
So I think that's how I'vecreated good relationships with
them and also be like personablea little bit, like find out
like what you might have incommon.
Could it be a sports team?
(28:16):
Could it be, you know, a TVshow?
Like, could it be anything thatmakes them more human and you
more human so that it's aneasier relationship to have.
Michael Hartmann (28:25):
Yeah, one of the things is you've been
talking that also like I've beeninvolved with lots and lots of
contract negotiations, right?
And typically legal teams.
It's actually the one timewhere I had a bad experience of
one place where I felt like Iwas negotiating against my own
attorney, right?
I felt more on the client orour vendor side.
But um I think that's anotherplace where you can I think they
(28:46):
also want to see that you'reyou have some competence too,
right?
Um they don't I don't thinkthey expect you to understand
the laws or the regulations inany kind of detail.
Um, but I think they want tounder see that you understand
the nuance of it.
And um I think that it'sanother one of those scenarios
where you can build yourcredibility, which then when it
(29:07):
comes to where there's maybe uhmaybe not even gray area about
regulation, but like take GDPRas an example, right?
I think there's um there's likethere's a spectrum of levels of
which you could comply, right,depending on risk tolerance,
right?
Danielle Balestra (29:25):
So like we're also that by the regions, like
each region has their own levelof GDPR.
It's not one centralizedanymore.
Like Luxembourg and Germany andum Germany or Belgium, uh
Belgium are stronger than Franceand stronger than England.
So like it's it can beconfusing when you're in
actually in the marketplace andyou have to figure out like what
(29:46):
is there consent, is theredouble consent, is it more
commercial versus consumer andlike there's challenges.
Michael Hartmann (29:52):
There's a legitimate business decision
that could be made that says uhdo we want to quote fully comply
or take on the risk that we geta complaint and we have to pay
a fine, right?
So yeah, I mean there'sobviously the other parts like
damage to reputation, yada yadayada.
But my point is like I think ifyou build that kind of trust
(30:13):
that you you're willing to likego through that exercise of
going like, what are thetrade-offs between you know uh
uh 100% compliant across allthese different regions that are
unique, uh that's superexpensive and uh convoluted
versus something that's like 70%complete, but it exposes us to
(30:33):
a little more risk, right?
Is that like but it but it's asignificantly lower cost and
impact?
Like that's a trade, like whatI found is more but the
attorneys I like to work withare willing to have that kind of
conversation about thosetrade-offs, right?
Um, at the same time, I guesslike but was I just like there's
a point where they go, like,no, absolutely not, we cannot,
like we have to do this.
Danielle Balestra (30:54):
And well, because also like is your
organization have a bullseye onits back right now?
Because that's another thing.
Like, there's so many factorsto think about that risk
spectrum.
And the more you talk to youryour compliance or legal teams,
the more you understand whereyou guys where your organization
is at that time and like howyou know, how risky can you be?
(31:15):
Yeah, the customer experienceshould always be everyone's
concern, and that should be atop priority, but sometimes it's
not, sometimes it's lowerpriority and they just you know
awareness is a very importantthing for them like so putting
yourselves a little bit at riskor annoying the prospect or
customer a little bit is in someteams mind lower than getting
(31:38):
the you know hundred people whoforgot about you attention.
Michael Hartmann (31:42):
Yeah totally yeah that's and I think that's
the point like it's an it'sanother example for me where I I
talk about this a lot right theworld is very there's very few
things in life that are veryclear cut you know right or
wrong black and white whateverpick the the you know the very
binary sort of the like there'slots of gray area and a lot of
it has to do with trade-offsright oh yeah um so that falls
(32:07):
in the same category and thebest attorneys I've worked with
um recognize that right in theway they operate so um okay I'm
trying to decide where to gofrom here a little bit um maybe
let's go next into like you youmentioned that cultural stuff is
(32:28):
driven by organization sizemore than industry maybe uh or
or even regulated versusderegulated so in my experience
with like um big organizationsyeah it requires a lot of
collaboration patiencepersistence right do you find
the same thing and oh yeah againkind of like are do you see any
(32:51):
differences when you've been inregulated versus non-regulated
industries or lightning no it'sthe it's the same.
Danielle Balestra (32:56):
Yeah no it's the same thing it's you you have
to be coming in curious all thetime.
Your your manager might noteven have the same experience as
you so like you can't come inand say well this person's you
know in charge of Salesforce sothey must have years of
Salesforce experience.
That was not the case for meonce and I was just like okay
(33:16):
yeah so um I guess never assumealways be curious and even ask
questions.
Like if somebody is giving youdirection clarify just make sure
alignment's there.
I know these are all sort oflike soft swag word uh jargon
words but like this is reallyimportant is like make sure
(33:38):
everyone's rowing in the samedirection.
Like what are we all trying tosee achieve it's amazing how
sometimes certain words everyonehas a different meaning for it.
Like innovative could be meantthree different ways to three
different people so find out andmake sure like earlier today
about the term micro microsegment I was like what does
(33:59):
that even mean anyway but yeahbe curious have a lot of
conversations be open don't comewith your previous um ex
judgments um try and be as openas you can to get to understand
what they're trying to get toand accomplish what's trying to
be achieved.
Michael Hartmann (34:19):
Okay got it yeah sounds sounds consistent
with everything else we talkedabout um so in that same vein
about like um being patient Iassume like do you have to build
in in your like likego-to-market process stuff extra
time for things like reviewsand approvals and that kind of
stuff like how does that affectthose kinds of processes when
(34:41):
you're in a highly regulatedindustry well I mean unless
there's like an absolute harddeadline like are you releasing
a product that has to beannounced that day most things
are self-made deadlines and wecan get it out when we can get
it out.
Danielle Balestra (34:55):
Like to try and rush something out on a
Friday makes no sense.
We can hold it until Monday anda lot of uh you know compliance
reviews we do pad in as muchtime as we can.
So that puts more pressure onthe creative and the um campaign
teams to like make sure theyhave clear messaging their
(35:15):
copywriting is already completedthe images already cleared they
already know what will triggeruh a violation so they should
already have like a bank of likepre-approved type images that
they could use in the in thecreative so interesting like I
wouldn't have even thought aboutthe images but I could imagine
in certain ones right you canyeah because like certain
(35:36):
representation um you knowthere's a lot of laws that like
fair lending and all thesethings like you have to know
that like you can't do certainthings.
So you know all thosepre-approved images the copy the
language within the copy and weusually give them like you know
most teams are they're alsounderstaffed.
The compliance team doesn'thave an endless number of people
(35:58):
but they are going to be andthey might be looking at
multiple versions of things formultiple divisions depends on
how big the organization is mostof the time we gave them like I
think a day day and a half andI think sometimes we can get it
a little bit faster but justgive them the room to also do
their job.
Again, everyone's running atight ship so they might not
(36:19):
have the bandwidth to dosomething rush or to get it out.
And if you are launching a bigproduct usually everyone's aware
and they're all marchingtowards that launch together.
Michael Hartmann (36:29):
Sure that makes sense.
Yeah it's um it's sointeresting about the images I
hadn't even really thought ofthat as being a part of a like a
compliance kind of review butit totally makes sense.
I could I could see that um doyou I so just curious do you um
like this also to me ties backto the this building a
relationship with those teamsright because if you do need to
(36:52):
come in and say hey this oneneeds to get bumped up if you've
built that relationship rightthere's usually they'll either
go extra or they'll work withyou on let's this one takes
priority the one you wereworking on that we said was due
today, get it tomorrow or thenext day, right?
Danielle Balestra (37:08):
Yeah, no and that does help and that does
happen.
Because what you don't want islike I would I might get a phone
call saying like you know thisperson did this.
Like all right well I thinkthey didn't explain fully why so
like give the context of theprioritization changes if there
are changes happening.
You know, because what youdon't want is you don't want
(37:29):
those compliance or legal teamscalling your boss or your boss's
boss or the person they know tosay like what's going on?
Why are they doing this andstart complaining because those
people don't have context ofwhat's happening.
So you want to have as muchinformation and and sort of
share um to say like hey I'msorry this is you know confusing
but this is now a priority I'vebeen told this is no longer a
(37:51):
priority could we switch uhcould you get this done sooner?
Michael Hartmann (37:54):
Yeah yeah it makes sense well why don't we
wrap up here um we talked a lotabout some of the uniqueness of
highly regulated industries umif if there's anyone who's
listening here who's eithertransitioning from one to the
other maybe uh but in particularI think moving from a less
regulated to more regulatedindustry um and kind of working
(38:18):
through or is made thetransition is trying to kind of
make things more compliant likewhat's your best advice to them
like how to approach that Iwould suggest first reading the
first 90 days that's a greatbook um for anyone starting a
new job yeah start there but Iwould suggest being to go a
little slower.
Danielle Balestra (38:38):
So if you are coming from fast pace it's
gonna be a huge change it's likejumping into a cold ocean going
from like run run run emailsall weekend emails at night to
you know I was at the healthcareorganization I didn't get an
email past 4 30.
I was like what is happeningright like it's such a nice
(38:58):
work-life balance um so becurious as well like you know
come to all of your meetingswith curiosity be eager to learn
be very patient with others andwith yourself um you might also
have lost some um tasks andresponsibilities you had at a
previous organization they mightnow need you really just focus
(39:19):
on one vertical of what you'reworking on um it's good to share
but also remember to like youknow have them come to you with
questions um but I'm sorry mycat just now wants to come in
front of my camera uh that's thelife we live in these days
right yep there's all rightthere we go uh sorry about that
(39:44):
um so yeah I would tell them becurious be patient and
definitely just you know be opento learning new stuff you have
a lot to offer so be excited tobring that your your experience
um but just know you have toprobably retool it to what the
organiz the new organizationneeds.
Michael Hartmann (40:03):
Yeah I you know it's interesting you
brought up about like going tomeetings and being curious kind
of a new a nuance for me isbecause I generally try to avoid
meetings when I can.
The one time when I generallylike accept everything is when I
first enter especially a bigorganization because so much
about that is buildingrelationships and knowing who to
(40:24):
what and trying to learn andabsorb as much as possible.
So I tend to be over likeoverdo that even though it's not
my normal tendency.
And so because what I find is alot of big organizations people
tend to be uh they over invitepeople to meetings because they
don't want her feelings I'm likeI always tell people like I
also I feel like some peopledon't know what other people do.
Danielle Balestra (40:45):
They're like maybe we should include them or
they're always been in thismeeting so we keep them in the
meeting.
Michael Hartmann (40:49):
Yeah and I'm like I I I I'm like I tell
people all the time if they'relike yeah I am invited to a
meeting I'm like I don't knowthat I need to be in this
meeting so like carry on withoutme like if you do need me like
maybe keep me on the invite andI'll be if we use teams right
I'll be on the Teams chat or theSlack channel or whatever.
If you need me I'll hop on orwe can talk about it separately
(41:11):
but like I don't feel the needto like my ego is not caught up
in whether or not you're gonnainclude me in a meeting.
Especially for one where I'mlike just sitting there like I
don't I don't it's about thelike biggest waste of time.
Um and when I see that in a bigorganization I see all these
heads are just like doing whatI'm able to convert their phones
(41:32):
and not paying attention orwhatever, right?
Uh camera like you don't needto be here.
It's okay.
So um that's like one culturalnorm.
If I could make that changeeverywhere I've been with a
large organization I would do it100 out of a hundred times.
(41:53):
So anyway well hey I know weare short on time Danielle so so
much fun.
Um look really enjoyed it um Iwish I was gonna see you at
Mopsapalooza um I know I'm I'mgonna miss you yeah for those
who are going I can't wait tosee them.
Yeah well anyway it's it's alot of fun if folks want to
(42:16):
connect with you or learn moreabout what you're doing these
days what's the best way forthem to do that?
Danielle Balestra (42:21):
They can find me on LinkedIn um my Danielle
Belastra is I think the handleat the end of my LinkedIn so
definitely just connect.
Michael Hartmann (42:30):
Perfect sounds good I I think I almost don't
know that I should ask thatquestion anymore because I think
the answer is always the same.
But I'm always surprised assoon as I stop it maybe
something different.
Anyway well thank you againDanielle appreciate it or I
think everyone listening isgoing to be uh learn something
from this as always thanks toour um our audience out there
(42:50):
continue to support us if youhave ideas for topics or guests
feel free to reach out to Naomi,Mike or me and we'd be happy to
get the ball rolling on that.
Until next time bye everybody
Hello everyone, welcome to another
episode of Opscast, brought toyou by MarketingOps.com and
powered by all the MoPros outthere.
I'm your host, Michael Hartman,Flying Solo, as we are getting
closer and closer to Moss Blueza2025, which unfortunately I'm
not going to be at.
So if you're going to be there,I'm I'm I'm in jealousy mode
right now.
So the FOMO is real.
(00:47):
All right.
But today we are exploring whatit takes to build and run
effective marketing operationsin highly regulated industries.
So think finance, healthcare,legal services, things like
that.
To do that, my guest isDanielle Balestra, a seasoned
fractional marketing technologyexecutive who has built stacks
and teams across both regulatedand non-regulated environments.
(01:07):
She and I are going to diveinto the unique challenges of
operating within legal andcompliance constraints, how to
earn trust across functions, andwhat leaders should look for
when building an ops team thatworks well.
Either within the with orwithout those constraints.
So, Danielle, welcome to theshow.
Thank you, Michael.
I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah, this is this is fun.
I'm glad we could do it.
(01:28):
All right.
Well, let's start startingmaybe big picture here.
Um what do you, especiallysince you've been in both
regulated and not as regulatedindustries, like what's what
makes highly regulatedindustries unique when it comes
to parking and marketingoperations?
Danielle Balestra (01:46):
A lot of the technology you're working with
in the highly regulated industrymight still be on-prem.
And if you think about it, itmakes sense because they have
very sensitive data, either behealth records or your banking
account information.
Um so they kept a lot of thatinformation in their own servers
and they maintained them there.
So there's firewalls.
And to build these customexperiences, you have to be very
(02:09):
um creative about how to getinformation from the secure
locations without compromisingany data security, but still
giving our customers a reallygood experience.
So that's a huge hurdle thatyou have, and you have to be
willing to try new thingsbecause the normal playbooks of
like just plug and play an APIin might not work.
Michael Hartmann (02:32):
Right.
Oh, it's gonna make issuesdifferent.
Danielle Balestra (02:37):
No, not gonna work for you.
You might be hearing words likeFTP um FSTP sites, and you're
gonna be like, what are youtalking about?
Yep.
You might be sending cold uhCSV files from one server to
another.
You're gonna be making um, youknow, codes or a little um I'm
missing the word today, butyou're gonna be making code
(02:59):
codes that can actually connectum and take away identifying
information from uh your on-premserver to um, you know, your
cloud-based information.
So a lot of creativity there.
The other big difference is thespeed to approving a vendor.
So because of those securityhurdles, every technology you're
(03:22):
gonna need to approve or bringon board can take anywhere from
nine months to over a year toget cleared.
So a lot of those um highlyregulated companies will be
looking at platforms that havemultiple um offerings uh for you
to use as a service.
Michael Hartmann (03:38):
Oh, yeah.
Danielle Balestra (03:39):
So because if you're gonna commit to a vendor
You're gonna be going with anAdobe, a Salesforce, an SAP, an
Oracle.
Like that's usually where theyum where it's easiest because
they have mo the most offeringsacross the board um with their
products.
So, and for somebody who needsthose services, it's easier to
just pull something that'salready approved as a vendor.
(04:00):
Whereas, you know, if you'redoing a point solution, they
have to be really strong andthey have to be very secure.
Like you need to know thatthey're not gonna be sold in six
months or um change their theircompany name.
Like a lot of those things cancause major disruptions on the
onboarding of a new tech.
Michael Hartmann (04:18):
Yeah.
I I I I suspect there's gonnabe a number of people listening
to this episode that they'relike, hey, what does SFTP mean?
Well, we're gonna leave that asa mystery for them, right?
We can.
Um I'm familiar with it.
Still use it occasionally, uh,believe it or not.
So in not even in a highlyregulated environment, but a big
(04:40):
organization.
So all right, so maybe let'stalk about this like that's
really eye-opening because Ithink my assumption of what you
were gonna say was gonna bearound uh having to deal with um
things like legal review ofmarketing materials, right?
Which is kind of annoying.
Danielle Balestra (04:58):
I mean, that's there.
I mean that's that that'sthere, but I think for managing
your full stack, it's not that'snot that's not part of it.
The the harder thing is to getthe tools you need in-house
first.
Michael Hartmann (05:10):
Yeah.
Danielle Balestra (05:11):
Once they're there, I'm gonna say honestly,
the relationships you can buildwith your compliance officers
and your legal teams canactually make things move
faster.
Like when I was working at abank, we had two different
compliance groups.
There was one for theconsumer-facing materials, and
there was one that was for ourcommercial-facing materials.
(05:32):
And we worked out um differentsort of checklists and
processes.
We knew what we could or couldnot say in our communications
and emails.
Things were sent um andreviewed, and you know, we we
moved things along quickly, andit was an easy enough call for
me to pick up the phone and andreach out to any of those
compliance officers if anythinggot stuck.
Michael Hartmann (05:52):
Yeah.
Danielle Balestra (05:53):
So to me, that's actually like not as big
of a hurdle.
Michael Hartmann (05:57):
And I know the point, you know, if you're
that's actually really a bigdeal, right, these days.
Danielle Balestra (06:02):
So Well, you I mean, everyone would think
everybody's in the cloud, butthat's not the case.
Michael Hartmann (06:07):
Right.
Yeah.
You still have server roomswith like heavy, heavy locks on
them and stuff, right?
So a lot of air conditioning.
A lot of air conditioning.
Um very interesting stuff.
Yeah.
All right.
So let's take it down maybe tothe level of if you if you've
got people who are thinkingabout or maybe about to go into
(06:28):
an organization that's in ahighly regulated industry, like
from a mops team structure.
So like how does like how doesthat affect um like what you
look for in team members'structure, the way you operate?
Danielle Balestra (06:43):
I'm looking for people who are very much
learner mindsets.
So what I mean by that is whenI talk to an individual, if they
are confused why there's an opsteam within this industry, that
to me is a little like redwarning flag.
Because what you want to haveis you want to have somebody
that can take the principles ofmarketing operations, being it
(07:05):
either processes or just, youknow, data principles, have that
base, but now apply it to whatmight be more relationship
focused.
So a lot of these highlyregulated industries, like your
bank doesn't think of ityourself in your um in your own
shoes when it comes to bankingor your medical provider.
You're not concerned aboutbeing passed on to be sold for
(07:28):
more services.
Like your health is yourhealth.
Like you need to know importantthings about the conditions you
might are be concerned aboutthat either have or genetically,
you know, potentially couldhave.
Michael Hartmann (07:41):
Right.
Danielle Balestra (07:41):
You don't want them passing your
information on to certain peopleor, you know, trying to
encourage you to go get thistesting or this whatever.
So it's just it's more aboutrelationship, building trust,
making people feel comfortablewith your, you know, you as a
service provider.
And with that, you know, you'regonna have to take different
principles to that data.
But the the foundations are allthe same.
(08:03):
Like you still need to havedata knowledge, you need to have
be able to build systems,you're gonna have to connect
systems in a really unique way.
So that's why I said thecreativeness is very important.
Um, so those are the thingsthat um if somebody's looking to
come into it, they need to besort of open and curious, want
to know what they can learn inthis space, what they can apply
(08:25):
from their previous experiences.
There will be no SDRs, therewill be no sales team, there
will be a different people whoare getting this information.
And it's important for them.
So creating a unifiedexperience, that's really
important.
So, how do you get into thedata, making sure all the data
is in a state where you have oneperson represented for whatever
(08:46):
services they're supposed to bereceiving or whatever products
they're receiving?
So it's a lot of conversationswith different groups.
Um, but again, being curious,being open.
And then what type of umchallenges the organization
have?
Are they trying to build theirmarketing tech stack?
Do they have one existing andit's challenged and it's not
(09:06):
giving the right customerexperience?
So I did recently identify somedifferent personas to help
people understand where theycould sit and what they are
excited about.
So depending on where theorganization is, those different
personas make sense.
So you'd have to, in yourinterviewing process, find out
like, are you introducing newtechnology?
How long has the technologyyou've had on hand been there
(09:29):
and how well is it working?
Because that will tell you, arethey looking for a builder?
Are they looking for somebodyto come and fix something that's
broken?
Those are very important.
So that will help give youthat.
The data analysts, everyone'sneeding to get insights.
So that's very important.
And it's even more so becausethere's different data places,
like I said, on-prem versus inthe cloud.
(09:50):
And then hopefully you'regetting a leader who's helping
guide you through it as astrategist.
So that's what I think when itcomes to moving into this space
and what to be looking for.
Michael Hartmann (10:02):
Right.
So um, so one thing youmentioned in that uh you talked
about in the banking world whereyou have the consumer, right,
retail banking clients andcommercial banking clients.
But two different things,right?
One's more of a cut B2C, one'smaybe more B2B.
Uh I depend I I see them in thelike the medical world,
(11:24):
depending on where like theremight be a similar thing where
you need to be able to straddleboth of those.
Is that another like you need ayou need people who can kind of
go between like consumer-facingstuff and be more B2B facing
stuff and kind of go there?
And if this is where I don'tknow, like are the tool sets
different for those?
Danielle Balestra (11:46):
Not usually.
So, you know, when I was at thecommercial bank, we used the
same marketing automationplatform across everything.
The difference was the datasources we were working off of.
So like some of them were salesfacing, like um, almost like
sales facing.
So they did have Salesforce.
So you'd have a commercialbanker or you'd have, you know,
these different, like we hadequipment financing.
(12:07):
So we'd have equipment financebankers there.
So those people were usingSalesforce.
But when it came to like theactual um consumer side, those
were all in data warehouses andin data secure places.
So like that's a wholedifferent world.
And we had to work with ourdata science team on doing
insights and information.
The principles are all stillthere.
(12:28):
Like, what everyone has sometype of goal?
Like, are we trying to increaseuh account openings?
Are we trying to increasebalances?
Are we trying to increaseloans?
Uh, what are the goals?
And then you just work witheach data team.
It's fun because it'schallenging.
It's almost like working for acouple of different companies at
once when you work through thatspectrum of B2B, B2C.
(12:51):
Um not every bank's the same.
Some of them don't offer thatwide, you know, breadth of uh,
you know, services.
The the healthcare isinteresting from my experience
because it was it was aprovider, so it was a hospital.
Michael Hartmann (13:06):
Right.
Danielle Balestra (13:07):
But when you think about the hospital
operating, there's so manystakeholders that are in place.
So you have the patients, youhave the caregivers, but you
also have the doctors.
And we had this amazingreferral program that we were
able to trace like where um mostof our referrals were coming
from.
And we established sort of likea doctor-to-docker referral
(13:27):
like meeting.
So like we try and increase therelationships of the doctors in
those regions with our doctorson on hand so that they could
refer patients as things came upfor us to help them with.
So that was like a veryinteresting B2B type of play in
a B2C world.
So that's why this is a funcreative space.
(13:48):
If you're willing and you feelconfident with your base
knowledge, like this is a reallyinteresting experience uh to
play as a marking opsprofessional.
Michael Hartmann (13:56):
Yeah, it's that's a really interesting
scenario there.
So um you've kind of maybetouched on this a little bit
though, but like what like froma culture standpoint, um, I
think a lot of people listeningfeels like we have are heavy in
this community uh that leantoward SaaS or tech companies or
early states, things like that,right?
(14:17):
So there's like uh probablycultural norms that are there.
Uh what are you what have youseen in terms of maybe whether
it's between regulated andnon-regulated or um across the
different regulated industrieswhere you've seen, like what are
the cultural things that you'veseen that are maybe different
and how those might affect opsprofessionals when they when
they're in them in those?
Danielle Balestra (14:38):
I don't know it's if it's so much regulated
versus non-regulated, but itwhat I did notice a difference
is when you go from like 50 or70 employees or 120 employees to
4,000 or 7,000 or 16,000employees.
That's like that's a hugedifference.
And when you're in a small andmighty team, everyone can be a
little bit matrixed and everyoneunderstands each other's roles
(14:58):
and they're just running andgoing at whatever the direction
is that the company's givingthem.
When you're in enterprise, whenyou're in a large organization,
even the department you'resitting in might be very siloed.
So, you know, when I was at thehealthcare organization, there
was over 157 people in themarketing department and
communications department.
(15:19):
That's a big department.
So like you have to feelcomfortable with networking and
talking to people.
Hopefully, you have a gooddirector in charge who is, you
know, sort of guiding andcreating paths for you to meet
others and to find opportunitiesfor you to help with.
Um, that's why I liked workingin the enterprise environments,
(15:40):
is like you can start findingnew projects within your own
company and share the value ofthis technology you're investing
in that they don't even knowabout.
Um, my joke was like I used tolove going to, we had
ServiceNow, one of my umemployers, and all the
technology was listed in there.
So I'd find out like whatMartech other divisions have and
(16:01):
call them and be like, hey, Isee that you're using XYZ.
Could we have a conversation?
Because I would like to see ifwe can expand it to my division.
So I mean, like it's a verydifferent experience.
You have to be a little bitmore uh open to having
conversations.
It can be very siloed, andthat's where it gets to feel
like a little likeclaustrophobic because you want
(16:22):
to be helpful for theorganization.
Um, but sometimes people feellike they have to stay in a
lane.
But really, most people arewilling and open to having uh,
you know, work on projects.
One of the best projects I hadwas I found about found out
about in the in the coffee room.
And when I was working in thebank, like it just I kept
hearing the word Salesforce.
(16:42):
I'm like, who's talking aboutSalesforce over here?
And I introduced myself to themand say, oh, I'm in charge of
the marketing automationplatforms that are connected to
your system.
What are you guys doing there?
So like that was like a naturallead.
And not that I think a lot ofpeople are in the same building
anymore, but that was a greatway to like meet more and
expand.
So it's really the size and thesilos that are probably the
(17:05):
biggest cultural challenge thatI've seen.
Michael Hartmann (17:10):
It's funny, you and I were talking before we
started hitting the recordbutton about how I actually miss
being in an office, right?
And it's it's part of it isthose kinds of scenarios where
you just sort ofserendipitously, you know, have
conversations or walk in on aconversation that can have kind
of you know minor or majorimpacts to you know what you're
(17:31):
doing or your career.
I'm curious though, like all Iwhat what you're saying about
like um networking, havingconversations all resonates with
me.
I suspect there's gonna bepeople who are listening who are
gonna be um whether they'retelling themselves a story or
not, right?
It's like I'm more of likethat's uncomfortable, I don't
(17:51):
know what to say.
Like, do you have any tips forhow to how to kind of how to
approach that if they're maybefeel like they're an introvert
or whatever?
Danielle Balestra (18:03):
I would say just start small.
Don't go feel like you need totalk to everybody.
Just try and have like a coffeemeeting.
Like if your organizationoffers something like that, I
don't know how big theorganizations are, but like I
think about I used to help outat Amex um as a consultant and
they used to have the coffee uhchats.
They had a bowl, and you putyour information in the bowl,
(18:25):
and people would pullinformation out and they would
call you and just have a randomconversation.
So depending on like whatorganization you're in, like
there used to be a Slack channelfor a marketing ops community
that used to do this thingcalled donut where they would
just randomly uh, you know,bring you to somebody else.
So I think just start small,just try and meet one person.
(18:45):
And if anything, the bestquestion to ask is do you
recommend me speak to anybodyelse so that you have a warm
introduction to the next personin the organization?
Um, me is I've always beenballsy.
So I'm like, oh hey, yeah,these are the five people that I
need to talk to.
I'm just gonna get on theircalendar.
And I would start with anemail, and if they don't
respond, I put a meeting.
(19:06):
And some people like that's thething, like you don't know how
they're gonna react.
Some people don't respond toemails.
Some people are happy that youput a meeting on and they're
like, Thank you for setting thisup.
And you're just like, I emailedyou three times, but you're
welcome.
Michael Hartmann (19:21):
Yeah.
When you do something likethat, this is getting very
tactical, but do you do like 15minutes, 30 minutes, an hour?
Danielle Balestra (19:31):
It depends on what the conversation is.
If it's really for me tounderstand tactically what the
what they're doing, what they'retrying to achieve, what their
department goal is, I try andleave longer time because I also
want to share a little bitabout myself, not just be like,
give me all your information andthank you.
Bye.
Like I also plan on, you know,sharing why I reached out, what
(19:52):
I'm trying to figure out, andwhy I, you know, this is
important for us to have aconversation.
So, you know, there are greatbooks out there about also just
networking.
Um, it's funny, I just read TheLong Game by Dory Clark.
And uh she talks about likelong-term goals.
So, like it some of it might berelevant in the work
(20:13):
environment, but it is good forjust general networking, uh,
just about like how to workthrough that and how to use it
not just like as a like atransactional experience, but
more as a relationship buildingexperience.
Michael Hartmann (20:25):
Yeah.
I think the one thing I mightadd to your idea there is you
know, you're probably alreadyinteracting with a number of
people that are outside of yourkind of core area, right?
So like there's already aconnection, right?
And so reaching out and askingfor, hey, I'd love to learn more
about what your day or weeklooks like and how we can maybe
(20:46):
learn from each other.
I think you know, there aregonna people be people who are
not interested in it, but Ithink my experience has been if
you ask, like people are mostpeople are more than willing to
share.
And actually they actuallyappreciate that.
Um and I like your point aboutlike trying to make it
reciprocal a little bit, likewhat can I do for you as well is
(21:08):
is is a good good thing.
And once you do that, like Imean the thing like what I what
I've what I've learned, um, andit's kind of a what I try to do
with my own children to somedegree is like the the anxiety
and fear about all the potentiallike things like that they may
say no, like like A, yeah, theymay, but like what's the worst?
Like that's you haven't lostanything if you do it in a
(21:31):
respectful way, right?
Danielle Balestra (21:33):
So you hope that they don't say no too,
because that also reflects onthem.
Like you hope they're open andwilling to share, but most
people are.
Most people are more than happyto share and talk about
themselves and help you out bygiving them giving you the
knowledge they have.
Michael Hartmann (21:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean I think that's thepoint, right?
It's like this is if all you dois dwell on all the worst case
scenario, right?
It's you're never gonna do itbecause it's like the fear of
that is is gonna overwhelm you.
But like I guess it's like youknow, strap on a little courage
and uh go make the ask.
Danielle Balestra (22:11):
I guess I guess the same thing applies if
you want to play with AI.
So I I hate to turn this intoAI, but the I know everyone's
talking about AI, but I'd betpeople are dabbling on it and
they are interested in it.
It's the same thing as learningfrom somebody else.
Like, there's no reason why,you know, just asking a
question.
It doesn't have to be a longconversation.
Like some executives I don'teven spend a full 15 minutes
(22:34):
with.
It's just like, hey, how areyou doing?
Or, you know, quick, quicklike, you know, questions.
They're happy to answer it, andthen you keep going.
And then you alreadyestablished a relationship.
So the next time you ask fortime, it's easier to get on
their calendar.
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (22:50):
Well, and I like it, it's interesting you
bring up AI because I have donethat myself.
Like I've been playing aroundwith it, but I see or hear other
people who seem to be furtheralong in that journey of
understanding it.
And I've reached out to people,it's like, hey, are you willing
to spend 30 minutes?
Like, yeah, help me acceleratemy learning.
Um and like my experience hasbeen what I expected, right?
(23:11):
They were more than willing todo that.
Um, there was a limit, and Ididn't want to crowd, you know,
uh ask more than I felt wasgood, but they were all well,
like I've learned from every oneof those.
So I I yeah, totally, totallyagree, agree agree with that.
Um all right, so let's go backto this whole like irregulated
(23:33):
industries, and you touched onthis about like compliance teams
and legal teams.
Um talked a little bit abouthow you've worked with them, at
least in one scenario.
Yeah, what I think there'sgonna be some people in
marketing or marketing ops whotry like avoid avoid the
attorneys, like like the plague.
(23:54):
Um which is weird for mebecause I'm married to an
attorney or a recoveringattorney, I should say.
Um and I've always I've beenfortunate that most places I've
been, I've had like high likegood attorneys and legal teams
and compliance teams to workwith who are yeah, in general,
like there's a line where theysay, no, absolutely no, we can't
(24:16):
do that, but most of the timethere's a lot of gray area and
they're willing to work with youin it.
So how have you approachedworking with those teams and
maybe guided the rest of yourteam on like as their as part of
their career progression,right?
To to build those kinds ofstrong proactive relationships
with those teams.
Danielle Balestra (24:36):
I always loved the um the legal teams.
I think as I'm also, eventhough I'm in this space, I am
very concerned about my ownpersonal data and my children's
data.
Like I'm very much like it'snot really for anyone to have
and to use.
I need to give it to you andyou need to have permission to
use it when it comes topersonal.
(24:57):
When it comes to commercial,like I do expect to get sold to
all day long about being amarketing operations executive.
Like that's fine.
I expect that.
Right.
Um, but I don't ex I do thinkthere are some spaces where we
should be respectful of our umcustomers or prospects.
And that's why I think I I cometo the legal teams and share
(25:19):
that like if a new regulationcame into effect, which I was in
highly regulated industrieswhen GDPR came into impact.
Michael Hartmann (25:26):
Yeah.
Danielle Balestra (25:27):
In a New York-based hospital, it's like,
why are we spending so muchtime?
It's because we did do a lot ofresearch.
Um, and we were working with uhinternational hospitals on the
research we were doing forcancer.
So GDPR was very important,more for the research piece, not
as much for the marketingpiece, but we were I still
participated.
(25:47):
I still sat with all the legalteam and I still talk to them
today.
They'll see me in the in GrandCentral every once in a while
and be like, hey, how are youdoing?
Uh so it was like we justestablished really good
relationships and they knew thatI was just as concerned about
providing a poor experience toour prospects and customers.
It made them feel comfortablewith myself and my team to know
(26:08):
that they could trust that we'renot gonna, you know, do
anything that would compromisethe organization's um position
in those data um regulations.
Um, same thing with when uh CDum, oh my god, it was the
California protection.
I'm now I'm forgetting myacronym.
Michael Hartmann (26:24):
I don't even remember what it is.
Is it CCPR?
Is that right?
Danielle Balestra (26:28):
Yes, something.
It I know it changed becausethere was like a data aspect to
it, but when that was going intoeffect, we had a California
bank and I was at a bank and wehad California clients.
So like we had to do it bothways because we had actual
organization in the state ofCalifornia, and then we had
clients in the state ofCalifornia, so we had to do a
whole bunch of fun things therewith how we were approaching
(26:51):
delete, um, how we had to keep,you know, for operational
purposes, certain aspects ofdelete.
So it was very interesting.
Again, right up there with our,you know, chief uh data privacy
officer working through theterms, working through how our
systems work, figuring out howwe could comply with those laws,
any regulator, um, anycomplaints, like we immediately
(27:13):
would take action on it.
So those I think I wasfortunate that I was there when
these regulations were comingout and worked very closely with
those teams and they knew howmuch I was concerned about it as
a consumer as well as a personoperating.
So I think that created someconfidence.
Um, I think we just need to beconscious of that.
Like even though this is dataand maybe you can have access to
(27:35):
it, but does the customer wantyou to have access to all of it?
Just take a seat, so just takea stop and think.
Like, we can't assume becauseyou know, Google's doing it,
that means it's right.
We need to think about what theperson on the receiving end
feels about it.
And they've indicated they'renot happy.
That's why these regulationsare coming about, because they
(27:55):
don't want you to just blanketemail them all day long or just
assume that you need a serviceor a product from them because
of XYZ item.
So I think that's how I'vecreated good relationships with
them and also be like personablea little bit, like find out
like what you might have incommon.
Could it be a sports team?
(28:16):
Could it be, you know, a TVshow?
Like, could it be anything thatmakes them more human and you
more human so that it's aneasier relationship to have.
Michael Hartmann (28:25):
Yeah, one of the things is you've been
talking that also like I've beeninvolved with lots and lots of
contract negotiations, right?
And typically legal teams.
It's actually the one timewhere I had a bad experience of
one place where I felt like Iwas negotiating against my own
attorney, right?
I felt more on the client orour vendor side.
But um I think that's anotherplace where you can I think they
(28:46):
also want to see that you'reyou have some competence too,
right?
Um they don't I don't thinkthey expect you to understand
the laws or the regulations inany kind of detail.
Um, but I think they want tounder see that you understand
the nuance of it.
And um I think that it'sanother one of those scenarios
where you can build yourcredibility, which then when it
(29:07):
comes to where there's maybe uhmaybe not even gray area about
regulation, but like take GDPRas an example, right?
I think there's um there's likethere's a spectrum of levels of
which you could comply, right,depending on risk tolerance,
right?
Danielle Balestra (29:25):
So like we're also that by the regions, like
each region has their own levelof GDPR.
It's not one centralizedanymore.
Like Luxembourg and Germany andum Germany or Belgium, uh
Belgium are stronger than Franceand stronger than England.
So like it's it can beconfusing when you're in
actually in the marketplace andyou have to figure out like what
(29:46):
is there consent, is theredouble consent, is it more
commercial versus consumer andlike there's challenges.
Michael Hartmann (29:52):
There's a legitimate business decision
that could be made that says uhdo we want to quote fully comply
or take on the risk that we geta complaint and we have to pay
a fine, right?
So yeah, I mean there'sobviously the other parts like
damage to reputation, yada yadayada.
But my point is like I think ifyou build that kind of trust
(30:13):
that you you're willing to likego through that exercise of
going like, what are thetrade-offs between you know uh
uh 100% compliant across allthese different regions that are
unique, uh that's superexpensive and uh convoluted
versus something that's like 70%complete, but it exposes us to
(30:33):
a little more risk, right?
Is that like but it but it's asignificantly lower cost and
impact?
Like that's a trade, like whatI found is more but the
attorneys I like to work withare willing to have that kind of
conversation about thosetrade-offs, right?
Um, at the same time, I guesslike but was I just like there's
a point where they go, like,no, absolutely not, we cannot,
like we have to do this.
Danielle Balestra (30:54):
And well, because also like is your
organization have a bullseye onits back right now?
Because that's another thing.
Like, there's so many factorsto think about that risk
spectrum.
And the more you talk to youryour compliance or legal teams,
the more you understand whereyou guys where your organization
is at that time and like howyou know, how risky can you be?
(31:15):
Yeah, the customer experienceshould always be everyone's
concern, and that should be atop priority, but sometimes it's
not, sometimes it's lowerpriority and they just you know
awareness is a very importantthing for them like so putting
yourselves a little bit at riskor annoying the prospect or
customer a little bit is in someteams mind lower than getting
(31:38):
the you know hundred people whoforgot about you attention.
Michael Hartmann (31:42):
Yeah totally yeah that's and I think that's
the point like it's an it'sanother example for me where I I
talk about this a lot right theworld is very there's very few
things in life that are veryclear cut you know right or
wrong black and white whateverpick the the you know the very
binary sort of the like there'slots of gray area and a lot of
it has to do with trade-offsright oh yeah um so that falls
(32:07):
in the same category and thebest attorneys I've worked with
um recognize that right in theway they operate so um okay I'm
trying to decide where to gofrom here a little bit um maybe
let's go next into like you youmentioned that cultural stuff is
(32:28):
driven by organization sizemore than industry maybe uh or
or even regulated versusderegulated so in my experience
with like um big organizationsyeah it requires a lot of
collaboration patiencepersistence right do you find
the same thing and oh yeah againkind of like are do you see any
(32:51):
differences when you've been inregulated versus non-regulated
industries or lightning no it'sthe it's the same.
Danielle Balestra (32:56):
Yeah no it's the same thing it's you you have
to be coming in curious all thetime.
Your your manager might noteven have the same experience as
you so like you can't come inand say well this person's you
know in charge of Salesforce sothey must have years of
Salesforce experience.
That was not the case for meonce and I was just like okay
(33:16):
yeah so um I guess never assumealways be curious and even ask
questions.
Like if somebody is giving youdirection clarify just make sure
alignment's there.
I know these are all sort oflike soft swag word uh jargon
words but like this is reallyimportant is like make sure
(33:38):
everyone's rowing in the samedirection.
Like what are we all trying tosee achieve it's amazing how
sometimes certain words everyonehas a different meaning for it.
Like innovative could be meantthree different ways to three
different people so find out andmake sure like earlier today
about the term micro microsegment I was like what does
(33:59):
that even mean anyway but yeahbe curious have a lot of
conversations be open don't comewith your previous um ex
judgments um try and be as openas you can to get to understand
what they're trying to get toand accomplish what's trying to
be achieved.
Michael Hartmann (34:19):
Okay got it yeah sounds sounds consistent
with everything else we talkedabout um so in that same vein
about like um being patient Iassume like do you have to build
in in your like likego-to-market process stuff extra
time for things like reviewsand approvals and that kind of
stuff like how does that affectthose kinds of processes when
(34:41):
you're in a highly regulatedindustry well I mean unless
there's like an absolute harddeadline like are you releasing
a product that has to beannounced that day most things
are self-made deadlines and wecan get it out when we can get
it out.
Danielle Balestra (34:55):
Like to try and rush something out on a
Friday makes no sense.
We can hold it until Monday anda lot of uh you know compliance
reviews we do pad in as muchtime as we can.
So that puts more pressure onthe creative and the um campaign
teams to like make sure theyhave clear messaging their
(35:15):
copywriting is already completedthe images already cleared they
already know what will triggeruh a violation so they should
already have like a bank of likepre-approved type images that
they could use in the in thecreative so interesting like I
wouldn't have even thought aboutthe images but I could imagine
in certain ones right you canyeah because like certain
(35:36):
representation um you knowthere's a lot of laws that like
fair lending and all thesethings like you have to know
that like you can't do certainthings.
So you know all thosepre-approved images the copy the
language within the copy and weusually give them like you know
most teams are they're alsounderstaffed.
The compliance team doesn'thave an endless number of people
(35:58):
but they are going to be andthey might be looking at
multiple versions of things formultiple divisions depends on
how big the organization is mostof the time we gave them like I
think a day day and a half andI think sometimes we can get it
a little bit faster but justgive them the room to also do
their job.
Again, everyone's running atight ship so they might not
(36:19):
have the bandwidth to dosomething rush or to get it out.
And if you are launching a bigproduct usually everyone's aware
and they're all marchingtowards that launch together.
Michael Hartmann (36:29):
Sure that makes sense.
Yeah it's um it's sointeresting about the images I
hadn't even really thought ofthat as being a part of a like a
compliance kind of review butit totally makes sense.
I could I could see that um doyou I so just curious do you um
like this also to me ties backto the this building a
relationship with those teamsright because if you do need to
(36:52):
come in and say hey this oneneeds to get bumped up if you've
built that relationship rightthere's usually they'll either
go extra or they'll work withyou on let's this one takes
priority the one you wereworking on that we said was due
today, get it tomorrow or thenext day, right?
Danielle Balestra (37:08):
Yeah, no and that does help and that does
happen.
Because what you don't want islike I would I might get a phone
call saying like you know thisperson did this.
Like all right well I thinkthey didn't explain fully why so
like give the context of theprioritization changes if there
are changes happening.
You know, because what youdon't want is you don't want
(37:29):
those compliance or legal teamscalling your boss or your boss's
boss or the person they know tosay like what's going on?
Why are they doing this andstart complaining because those
people don't have context ofwhat's happening.
So you want to have as muchinformation and and sort of
share um to say like hey I'msorry this is you know confusing
but this is now a priority I'vebeen told this is no longer a
(37:51):
priority could we switch uhcould you get this done sooner?
Michael Hartmann (37:54):
Yeah yeah it makes sense well why don't we
wrap up here um we talked a lotabout some of the uniqueness of
highly regulated industries umif if there's anyone who's
listening here who's eithertransitioning from one to the
other maybe uh but in particularI think moving from a less
regulated to more regulatedindustry um and kind of working
(38:18):
through or is made thetransition is trying to kind of
make things more compliant likewhat's your best advice to them
like how to approach that Iwould suggest first reading the
first 90 days that's a greatbook um for anyone starting a
new job yeah start there but Iwould suggest being to go a
little slower.
Danielle Balestra (38:38):
So if you are coming from fast pace it's
gonna be a huge change it's likejumping into a cold ocean going
from like run run run emailsall weekend emails at night to
you know I was at the healthcareorganization I didn't get an
email past 4 30.
I was like what is happeningright like it's such a nice
(38:58):
work-life balance um so becurious as well like you know
come to all of your meetingswith curiosity be eager to learn
be very patient with others andwith yourself um you might also
have lost some um tasks andresponsibilities you had at a
previous organization they mightnow need you really just focus
(39:19):
on one vertical of what you'reworking on um it's good to share
but also remember to like youknow have them come to you with
questions um but I'm sorry mycat just now wants to come in
front of my camera uh that's thelife we live in these days
right yep there's all rightthere we go uh sorry about that
(39:44):
um so yeah I would tell them becurious be patient and
definitely just you know be opento learning new stuff you have
a lot to offer so be excited tobring that your your experience
um but just know you have toprobably retool it to what the
organiz the new organizationneeds.
Michael Hartmann (40:03):
Yeah I you know it's interesting you
brought up about like going tomeetings and being curious kind
of a new a nuance for me isbecause I generally try to avoid
meetings when I can.
The one time when I generallylike accept everything is when I
first enter especially a bigorganization because so much
about that is buildingrelationships and knowing who to
(40:24):
what and trying to learn andabsorb as much as possible.
So I tend to be over likeoverdo that even though it's not
my normal tendency.
And so because what I find is alot of big organizations people
tend to be uh they over invitepeople to meetings because they
don't want her feelings I'm likeI always tell people like I
also I feel like some peopledon't know what other people do.
Danielle Balestra (40:45):
They're like maybe we should include them or
they're always been in thismeeting so we keep them in the
meeting.
Michael Hartmann (40:49):
Yeah and I'm like I I I I'm like I tell
people all the time if they'relike yeah I am invited to a
meeting I'm like I don't knowthat I need to be in this
meeting so like carry on withoutme like if you do need me like
maybe keep me on the invite andI'll be if we use teams right
I'll be on the Teams chat or theSlack channel or whatever.
If you need me I'll hop on orwe can talk about it separately
(41:11):
but like I don't feel the needto like my ego is not caught up
in whether or not you're gonnainclude me in a meeting.
Especially for one where I'mlike just sitting there like I
don't I don't it's about thelike biggest waste of time.
Um and when I see that in a bigorganization I see all these
heads are just like doing whatI'm able to convert their phones
(41:32):
and not paying attention orwhatever, right?
Uh camera like you don't needto be here.
It's okay.
So um that's like one culturalnorm.
If I could make that changeeverywhere I've been with a
large organization I would do it100 out of a hundred times.
(41:53):
So anyway well hey I know weare short on time Danielle so so
much fun.
Um look really enjoyed it um Iwish I was gonna see you at
Mopsapalooza um I know I'm I'mgonna miss you yeah for those
who are going I can't wait tosee them.
Yeah well anyway it's it's alot of fun if folks want to
(42:16):
connect with you or learn moreabout what you're doing these
days what's the best way forthem to do that?
Danielle Balestra (42:21):
They can find me on LinkedIn um my Danielle
Belastra is I think the handleat the end of my LinkedIn so
definitely just connect.
Michael Hartmann (42:30):
Perfect sounds good I I think I almost don't
know that I should ask thatquestion anymore because I think
the answer is always the same.
But I'm always surprised assoon as I stop it maybe
something different.
Anyway well thank you againDanielle appreciate it or I
think everyone listening isgoing to be uh learn something
from this as always thanks toour um our audience out there
(42:50):
continue to support us if youhave ideas for topics or guests
feel free to reach out to Naomi,Mike or me and we'd be happy to
get the ball rolling on that.
Until next time bye everybody
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