February 17, 2025 • 53 mins
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Unlock the secrets of harnessing energy for personal and professional success with our special guest, Carrie Fabris, founder and Chief Reframer of CareerFrame. Together, we redefine the concept of Return on Energy (ROE), offering a fresh perspective on how to evaluate the energy we invest in our daily tasks. Discover Carrie's insightful four-step approach to ROE, which will help you verify feelings, pinpoint impact, balance costs, and make decisive actions about whether to continue or drop certain tasks. By embracing tools like Clifton StrengthsFinder and Myers-Briggs, Carrie highlights the profound effect energy levels can have on decision-making and team dynamics.
Shift your focus away from immediate satisfaction toward long-term achievements. Through engaging discussions, we explore the growth mindset, resilience, and courage required to tackle tasks that demand energy without quick rewards. Our conversation delves into the cultural penchant for instant gratification and offers strategies to maintain focus on long-term objectives. Learn how the RPM framework—result, purpose, and massive action—can guide you toward patience and steady advancement, ensuring your energy is well-invested for future gains.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Hartmann (00:00):
Hello everyone , welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom.
I'm your host, michael Hartman.
I am joined by just our guestagain today.
So the guest today is KeriFabris, who is the founder and
chief reframer of CareerFrame,where she provides career
executive coaching, leadershipdevelopment, advising and
facilitating, with a focus onteam dynamics.
(00:21):
Prior to launching CareerFrame,she spent 20 plus years with
companies like Google,travelocity, sabre and more, and
in leadership for 15 plus yearsleading national sales and
account management teams.
She uses tools like Clifton'sStrengthFinder, emotional
intelligence, situationalleadership and various other
frameworks, some of which wewill discuss here today, to help
(00:41):
leaders and teams thrive ateffective communication that
drives engagement, energy andaccountability toward impactful
results.
You've got a great background,keri, so thank you for joining
us today.
Carrie Fabris (00:55):
It's such a pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Michael Hartmann (00:58):
Yeah, I think this is going to be good.
I think when we talked before,I think I was yeah, is this
something that would be foreverybody, for people who are
leaders?
And I think it's going to bethe former right, so, but I'm
looking forward to talk to youabout your career growth and
having you share some of yourrecommendations from your
(01:18):
experience, both in the seats,if you will, as well as being a
coach, mentor, whatever.
So why don't we start there?
One of the things that you aterm that you used with me when
we first talked was this conceptof return on energy, which I
think I was having a hard timearticulating what you mean by
that.
So why don't we start there?
What do you mean by that, andhow can our listeners, whether
(01:42):
they're individual contributorsor people managers, apply this?
Say today, tomorrow, right,this week.
Carrie Fabris (01:49):
Yeah, happy to dive into that, and yes, I don't
know that this is going to be atypical episode of what your
audience is used to living orlistening to.
Michael Hartmann (01:56):
We don't have a typical episode.
Carrie Fabris (01:59):
Not the marketing expert, definitely the
leadership and leadership expertand just helping people be the
better version of themselves atwork and in life as well.
And so return on energy, orwhat I also call ROE, is this
concept that I came up with.
Energy is really important tome personally, and I'm you know
(02:19):
how we feel so different whenour energy is high, when our
energy is low.
So started playing with thisconcept and, if you think about
it, it's very similar to an ROI.
Okay, so we're all familiarwith ROI and that's primarily a
concept and method that is goingto help us assess financial
performance and return.
And so ROE return on energy isa concept or method that's used
(02:42):
more for assessing your energylevel or the worth or the
reserve of energy that you'reusing towards something.
So, for example, if we are facedwith doing a task, committing
to a decision, making a choice,most of us innately are going to
have a feeling that either welike this or we don't like this.
Sometimes there's a I'm notsure I need more context, I
(03:05):
don't know enough about it and,as a certified Gallup Clifton
strengths coach, I want toemphasize the importance of
playing to one's strengths.
And so that was that mean toplay to our strengths.
It means that we're doingthings that we innately enjoy
because they energize us versusdrain us.
Um, we'll get energized doingcertain things, but we will also
(03:27):
get drained by doing certainthings, and so how we apply this
concept is kind of simple, andlet me set this up by saying
your vibe attracts your tribe.
You ever heard that saying?
Michael Hartmann (03:42):
No, I mean it sounds like a birds of a feather
kind of thing.
But yeah, it makes sense.
Carrie Fabris (03:47):
I saw it in a Dove chocolate wrapper one time,
not going to lie and I was likelove this but it is basically
your vibe attracts your tribe.
Which is what you're puttingout, is kind of what you're
going to get back.
Michael Hartmann (03:57):
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (03:57):
And so you know sometimes when you're like, are
you vibing?
Are you vibing right now?
If you look at it as a vibe, isit a good vibe or is it a not
awesome vibe?
Are you high, are you low withhow you're feeling?
So when we look at this verysimple four-step process of
figuring out your return onenergy, first step is verify
(04:19):
your feelings.
Okay, so kind of check in withyourself.
How does this task decisionsituation make you feel?
Does it excite you, motivateyou or drain you from an energy
perspective?
If it feels exhausting, beforeyou even begin, you probably
want to pause and assess.
Second step is identifying theimpact, so kind of evaluating
(04:40):
what's the potential payoff forwhat I'm about to do with this
task, commitment or choice.
Is it going to move you forward?
Is it going to strengthen arelationship?
Is it going to create somethingmeaningful?
If the outcome's valuable, it'sprobably worth the energy.
If it's not, you want toreconsider.
And then the third step isreally going to balance the cost
(05:01):
, or consider what it's going tocost you from a time, effort,
emotional bandwidth, moneyperspective, and can your energy
be spent better elsewhere, oris this the right path?
So if the investment's too highfor a little gain, you want to
look for alternatives.
If the investment short orlong-term which I'm sure we'll
(05:22):
get to talking about that as faras living in a world of
immediate gratification thesedays then you might want to stay
the course.
And then the fourth step isexecute or eliminate.
So if the energy is well spent,if it fuels the growth and
success moving forward, executeit.
If it depletes you and youcannot feel good and justify the
return, you let it go.
(05:44):
And you don't want to get it.
Michael Hartmann (05:47):
So when we first talked about this concept
of energy, I actually thought ofa different assessment.
I thought of Myers-Briggs,where you have the introversion,
extroversion right, which hasgot that whole yeah, great.
One Like you get energy or youlose energy in either domain,
depending on what yourpreference is.
So I mean, are you talkingabout because I think, I think,
(06:07):
I think a lot of our listenerslike me might think, oh, when
you talk about re-eternity, thatmeans like I'm going to be the
cheerleader, I'm going to beextroverted, like extroverted Is
.
I mean, is that what you'retalking about or is this
something like?
Carrie Fabris (06:26):
if I'm an introvert, cause I might be
going like that's really hardfor me, it is going to be
draining to do that.
So how does that play into this?
Is it different related?
Yeah, great question.
So it's not necessarilydependent on extrovert,
introvert, because extrovertsand introverts, regardless of
which category you fall in,you're still a human, you're
still uniquely you, and energylands differently for you, Sure?
So, you know, kind ofstereotypical introvert needs
time away from people, quiet,alone time to decompress and
(06:51):
kind of build that energy backup.
That's just that depends on theperson.
Extroverts might get moreenergy from walking in a room,
socializing and meeting newpeople, but I'm talking more
about each person's innatefeeling of am I feeling
energized today on variouslevels, various categories, or
(07:11):
am I depleted?
So, like you and I are both inthe DFW area and the weather is
like we're living in Londonright now, and I love, I love
London, one of my favoritecities.
Michael Hartmann (07:21):
I thought about that every day this week.
Carrie Fabris (07:23):
This weather is like I'm like where is the sun?
I need the sun, right yeah, andit is impacting me
energetically and so it's it'smore that it's kind of like what
impacts us based on ourpersonality type so.
Michael Hartmann (07:35):
So it's also not motivation.
I mean, you're talking aboutsomething that's got bits and
pieces I think of likeintroversion, extroversion,
motivation, not motivated, notmotivated.
It feels like yeah, okay.
And there's another bit and Ithink it was the third step you
described where you're kind ofdoing a mental calculation.
It almost sounds like withinROE that process, you're doing
an ROI right Like a mini oneright Because it's a balance the
(07:59):
cost.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a juiceworth the squeeze, right.
Carrie Fabris (08:03):
Yes, yes, it is very much an investment.
It's an investment of yourenergy versus an investment of
dollars, which, within energy,it's an investment of time and
an investment of emotions.
It's basically the human side,the human skills of what you're
investing.
Michael Hartmann (08:21):
So just one more thing and then we can maybe
move on.
But, um, the another thoughtthat comes to me, like, like, I
love this idea, right, investingtime into things that are going
to produce results, that arealso not going to completely
drain, if it's of energy at thesame time.
Almost all this, and like thisis a lesson I've had to teach my
kids.
(08:41):
Right, we all have to do thingswe don't really want to do
sometimes.
So how does that factor intothis, right?
Do you just kind of like figureout, okay, what is it?
What level of energy do I needto put towards this that I don't
really want to do, because Ihave to do it, but I don't want
to end up not be able to do thethings I do want to do.
Carrie Fabris (09:01):
Yeah, when it comes to, when it comes, to put
you know, assessing, puttingenergy towards something you
don't want to do, that's where Ithink this method and this
concept is really important,because, as part of the
evaluation process or theassessing and the balancing, the
cost and things like that iscan I see?
Can I see the gain?
(09:23):
So there's something that I sayoften to my clients, which is
pain is the road to joy.
Unfortunately, most times Ihave yet not saying it's not
there, but I've yet to find asituation where you got joy
without pain.
So it is assessing the wholecycle Again.
(09:44):
A lot of us live in thisimmediate gratification I want
to feel good right now, and alot of times that's not the case
.
We have to be able to look tothe future and just say can I
see this paying off?
And being responsible suckssometimes.
Yeah, it does.
It's not fine.
You have to be responsible.
(10:04):
If we can see what thatresponsibility can lead to in
the future and it's a good thing, then that's where we tap into
resilience, we tap into courage,we tap into growth, mindset,
all of these things to get there.
Some things are going to bepretty immediate.
You might think, oh my gosh,this sounds amazing.
It's totally my jam.
(10:25):
I love this stuff.
Let's go.
You focus on it, you act, youget the great results you want
the conclusion you were hopingfor Everyone's happy, amazing,
immediate, aren't we?
Other times again, you've gotto see the importance in the
future and it's the long,sometimes hard work ahead to
achieve that desired return.
But you're still going toinvest that energy because
(10:46):
there's a higher purpose that'spulling you to do so.
Michael Hartmann (10:49):
So return might be a delay.
Yeah, I mean, I think that thatthat scenario you're talking
about, where there's a longerterm delay, I immediately go
towards leadership things likewhere you're trying to, you know
, coach or mentor somebody whomaybe is not performing as well
as they could, and you see thatand you want to help them.
Right, it takes time to investin that.
Carrie Fabris (11:11):
That and like startups, people, founders of
startups, like they have thisvision, they have this dream,
they birthed this baby andthey've got to.
You know, they got to go andget capital on them, they got to
fundraise, they got to buildthe team and most startups don't
just.
Oh my gosh, instant you startedthis last week, I'd like to buy
you for $1 billion, like thatdoesn't work that way.
(11:32):
So that's a perfect example ofinvesting the energy for that
hopefully high return later downthe road.
And then there you know againthere's other quick wins Like I
really want a burger right now.
I'm going to get in my car andgo get a burger.
I'm going to take my energy andgo drive down the street and
you get that burger and you'reeating it.
You're so happy.
(11:52):
So it just depends.
And what I love about thisconcept is you literally can
apply it to absolutelyeverything.
Just to maximize your time,your energy, what you're
focusing on and and and.
When we do this, it ensuresthat we're staying at that high
energy level.
A whole lot of not awesomestuff follows when our energy is
low.
(12:12):
Yeah, our mind goes in not greatplaces.
Michael Hartmann (12:16):
So this immediate gratification kind of
concept, you know it.
It maybe it's because I haven'treally traveled a lot of places
, I've, you know, but it feelslike it's a particularly
American, maybe Western kind ofscenario where people are just
expecting go, go, go, go, go go.
Carrie Fabris (12:35):
And younger and younger people.
Michael Hartmann (12:43):
Yeah, I mean it's how does like, how does
like, how do we, how do we helpour listeners think about this
return on energy when fig the,the return part is down the road
?
Right, how do they?
How do, can they think aboutthat?
Carrie Fabris (12:52):
yeah, so.
So this is where um and againthis is, this is human skills.
We're talking aboutpredominantly right and the, and
I talk about mich, and so thisis when I encourage people to
stop and kind of do an RPM,which is what's the result I'm
going for, what's the purpose,what's the massive action I need
to take, and it's once youunderstand why you want
(13:19):
something so badly.
The next step is patience andmaking sure that each day,
you're doing something that'smoving you forward.
Um if you are not doing thingsthat are moving you forward and
you're just expecting it to landin your lap.
You know there might be somegrowth opportunity there to
think about this differently.
Um, as I said, I think with theMaybe a little bit of adulting.
Michael Hartmann (13:41):
That needs to happen.
Carrie Fabris (13:42):
Yeah, I was going to say with, with, with younger
, with younger people, and youand I have kids, I think, that
are similar to the same age andI know they're not listening to
this podcast.
But younger generations havegrown up with immediate.
We remember before there werecell phones and before there was
the fax machine, you had to goto the library to look up
(14:03):
something.
Yeah, a microfiche, microfiche,yeah.
Michael Hartmann (14:06):
People were like what is?
Carrie Fabris (14:06):
microfiche, what is that?
And dial-up and just all thatstuff.
And so it is learning how to bepatient and understanding that.
You know, sometimes we speed up.
I mean we slow down to speed up.
Michael Hartmann (14:20):
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (14:20):
It's the classic.
Sorry to get all cheesy, butit's the tortoise and the hare
kind of thing.
Sometimes slow and steady winsthe race.
Michael Hartmann (14:28):
So it is ready , ready aim fire, sort of ready
fire aim right.
Yes, yes, exactly so.
Carrie Fabris (14:33):
It's active practice and awareness of how
much you want something.
Think about how much energyyou're putting into, how badly
you want this thing right nowand you're not going to get it
right now.
Is that thought process a goodROE?
Probably not Right.
So even when we're thinkingabout our energy, we can do an
(14:55):
ROE process on the thought aboutenergy and that gratification.
Michael Hartmann (14:59):
Well, I mean, I'm sure everyone has had a
scenario like, oh, I need to putaway six things, right, I have
two hands and two arms.
I could carry them all, but thelikelihood that I'll make it to
the destination, like puttingfood away or something, and a
number of times I've done thatand then drop something.
So I was thinking I'm doingsomething that could go quickly
(15:21):
and it turns out to be takingtwo, three, four times as long
because I dropped something.
It splatters everywhere,Something breaks right?
Carrie Fabris (15:27):
Yeah, because you're moving too fast.
Michael Hartmann (15:29):
Yeah, or I'm, or I'm.
I think that's.
That's a scenario that one'shitting home, because this
actually happened in my houseNot with me last week, same
friend.
Carrie Fabris (15:45):
Well, earlier you asked about um.
You know how to apply this inin the spirit of immediate
gratification.
So I've got some examples foryour for you all, your listeners
around at the end of workplace,for example, for you, all your
listeners around in theworkplace, for example.
So some things that can beimmediate ROE is delegation.
So if you're just spinning yourwheels, working on something,
(16:06):
it's not in your strength zone,or if you're a leader and you
have someone on your team thatyou can move something to
delegate it.
Just give something to someonethat you trust, take it off your
plate, you know it's taken careof and you're going to reserve
your energy instead of like anexhausting email thread back and
forth.
Okay, that's another thing.
Just like back and forth, backand forth.
Just go old school, pick up thephone, discuss everything for
(16:30):
about five minutes, and that toois an immediate ROE, because
there's clarity, we gotunderstanding, we're not having
any emails on this topic.
And another very simpleapplication of ROE that I would
love to see more people takeadvantage of, and a lot do not
hurts my heart a little bitwhich is taking breaks
(16:52):
throughout the day.
Michael Hartmann (16:55):
Okay, so work 50.
Carrie Fabris (16:56):
Yeah, we all are.
But work 50 minutes, 5-0, stepaway for 10.
Watch your productivity andyour energy increase.
I mean, taking that 10-minutebreak is going to help you work
smarter, not harder, and that isan instant positive ROE.
I recently I'm not sure whattook me so long to do this, but
last year I moved all of my 60minute sessions to 50 minute
(17:20):
sessions.
Dramatic impact, positiveimpact, Like I would look at my
calendar and perhaps some of youcan relate to this and it is
non-freaking-stop Zoom afterZoom after Zoom after Zoom, or
team after team after team tocall after call.
It's just like non-stop.
Stop, Zoom after zoom afterzoom after zoom, or team after
team after team to call aftercall.
It's just like nonstop.
(17:41):
And it was causing me stressjust to look at the visual of it
.
And just changing to those 15minute sessions, that gives me
10 minutes to stand up, walkaway, refill the water, shake it
off, prepare for the nextmeeting, decompress from the
last meeting.
Michael Hartmann (17:51):
Yeah.
Carrie Fabris (17:52):
Makes such an amazing difference and it's a it
is an immediate impact on ROE.
Michael Hartmann (17:59):
Yeah, an amazing difference and it's a.
It is an immediate impact onroe.
Yeah, and I'd like it was true,it's.
I feel.
I almost feel guilty about thisbecause I know all this right,
yeah, I'm somewhat familiar withat least was with brain
research and how well, first off, how little we know, but how
much we're learning in the lastfew years and they, every time
we talk about this right Breaks,not multitasking, like all
(18:20):
these things are really wellknown to be good habits to do,
and I still am terrible about it.
Just like people are going tosee me drinking water here.
It's about the only time Idrink water through the day
because I just simply forget Iget busy.
Carrie Fabris (18:36):
There's a lot of achievers through the day
because I just simply forget Iget busy.
There's a lot of achievers Froma strengths perspective.
Achiever is the number onetalent theme that shows up the
most often in top five.
Okay, case in point, andachievers are usually heads down
.
I got to crank it out.
I got stuff to do and it's adifferent concept to think you
could actually do more if youtook breaks throughout the day.
(18:59):
So yeah, I'm here to help youfigure that out, michael.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Michael Hartmann (19:04):
I need that nudge.
It's interesting the idea ofdelegation.
I think a lot of people whoespecially if they're this is
one of the things when I coachpeople who are new to people
management delegation is onethat seems like it'd be an
obvious one where you can gainsome advantage.
But it's really hard for thesepeople, because it was hard for
(19:25):
me too.
What's really hard is to to tohand this off to somebody.
You can't just go go do itRight, unless you happen to have
somebody who works for you, youknow can do it.
Do it If it's something, a newskill or new things that they
have to learn.
Somebody who works for you, youknow, can do it.
Do it If it's something, a newskill or new things that they
have to learn.
You have to teach them.
So you have to invest in that.
Right, yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah.
Carrie Fabris (19:43):
Well, that that and trust them.
Michael Hartmann (19:45):
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (19:46):
So people who have, you know, are high
responsibility.
They, they said they would getsomething done to somebody else,
and so the thought of passingit to someone else is like, oh
my gosh, but what if they don'tdo it right?
So the adage of I'll just do itmyself, because it'll be faster
than do it myself, versusteaching someone how to do it,
(20:08):
and then you're just stuck inthis loop.
So yeah, so I do encouragepeople if they have trust issues
, do not delegate anything tothat person if you don't trust
them, because it's got to belike hand it off and let go.
Otherwise you're annoying, likehow about now?
Did you get it done?
Well, how about now?
Are you doing it right?
And now it becomesmicromanagement, and no one
(20:29):
wants that, not that I have metso far.
Michael Hartmann (20:32):
I have not met anyone who's admitted.
I've never run into anyone whowould admit that they want, like
, being micromanaged.
I have had people who I'veworked with who were better when
they were micromanaged.
I just never said that Right,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And maybe micromanage is notthis like constant follow-up,
but more like here's the list ofthings you need to do.
Carrie Fabris (20:52):
Right, well, that's also classic situational
leadership, as far as how westep up to lead someone based on
how they need to be led.
Michael Hartmann (21:01):
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (21:01):
And some people do need to be told because, on a
specific task, because theirability and willingness is low.
If they have high willingnessbut low ability, we coach them,
we don't tell them.
We coach them.
And then if there's low abilityor high ability, low
willingness, it's usuallyinsecurity, so we encourage them
.
And when there's high abilityor high ability, low willingness
, it's usually insecurity, so weencourage them.
And when there's high abilityand high willingness, we trust
(21:22):
them.
Yeah, that was a boom, likeflash of situational leadership
right there in like 10 secondsor less.
Michael Hartmann (21:29):
No, I mean at that point.
Another thing that I do with alot of new leaders is, like your
job is to adapt to your team,right?
Not the other way around, yes,so yeah, you need to play the
whole play to their strengthsscenario.
So, um, all right.
So another concept you and Italked about is this, uh, magic
(21:51):
framework, which I know is anacronym.
Acronym, um, what, what is thatand how is it?
Maybe a little bit about likejust high level, what is that?
Maybe is it tied to what wejust talked about, the roe, or
is it kind of a differentconcept altogether yeah, so
there definitely is somesimilarities.
Carrie Fabris (22:11):
um, I think we all need a little magic in our
lives, especially at work, andthis has nothing to do with
spells and wands and HarryPotter, even though I'm a huge
fan.
This is just another simpleframework to check yourself, to
make sure you are bringing themagic to your team.
(22:32):
And how do you know if you aredoing that, when you can take
inventory on five categories.
Doing that, when you can takeinventory on five categories, so
it's mindset, accountability,generosity, intention and
courage.
And if you have all of theseand they're also coming from a
positive place of strengths,then you're definitely bringing
magic to your team.
So it's a fun concept to workwith.
(22:54):
Do you want me to go deeper?
Michael Hartmann (22:55):
on those.
Yeah, I mean, we'd love to golike so let me replay so,
mindset, accountability,generosity, which is an
interesting one by itself,attention encourage, so, yeah,
so maybe walk through those oneat a time, yeah.
Carrie Fabris (23:08):
Okay, so, yeah.
So when we think about mindset,back to what I said your vibe
attracts your tribe, okay, andwhat you're putting out is kind
of what you're going to get.
One of my favorite quotes is aTony Robbins quote, actually,
and it says where focus goes,energy flows.
And so it's again that samething when you're putting
something out, you're going toget back that reflects what
(23:31):
you're putting back.
So, when it comes to mindset,absolutely figure out your ROE
when it comes to how you'rethinking and all the energy
you're spending thinking aboutthings.
And is it positive thinking, isit negative thinking?
And when I say positive, Idon't mean jazz hands,
everything's awesome.
That's not realistic.
It's more of having thisoptimism, and so it's growth
(23:54):
mindset versus a fixed mindset,it's open versus closed.
It's, you know, realizing thatour attitudes are contagious and
it impacts the culture aroundus.
So having that strong,encouraging mindset is really
important as a leader,especially the A.
(24:15):
So showing accountability, andthis is having a high say-do
ratio.
It's doing what you say youwill do, it's being reliable,
it's responsible, it's rolemodeling, that for other people
and holding others accountableas well, and so accountability
and productivity go hand in hand.
And so nothing drives me morenuts than a leader that
(24:38):
basically do as I say, not as Ido, and it's like why would
people want to follow you ifyou're not going to show that
you're accountable as well?
And then generosity, like yousaid, is kind of an interesting
one.
This is really where emotionalintelligence lives.
So this is about being generouswith your compassion and with
the human side.
(24:59):
Okay, so if you know empathy isI work with a lot of leaders
who actually have low empathy,according to their assessment,
and always tell them I'm likedoesn't mean you don't care, it
means that it's uncomfortable,it's not, it drains you to get
in the boat with that person andtheir issue.
(25:20):
You can still be generous with.
I see you, are you okay?
Is there something I can helpyou with?
I'll let you know if I can orcannot deliver to that.
And really being thatcompassionate leader, it's also
keeping in mind.
I kind of cringe whenever Ihear someone say remove all
(25:40):
emotion from this conversation,because humans cannot do that.
Humans cannot physically,neurologically, all of the
things cannot remove all emotion.
But we can use our emotionintelligently and we can be
generous with our time and ourenergy that we're giving to
somebody, as long as we'reseeing again a return on that.
(26:04):
Energy Leaders sometimes theyput up with too much for too
long from poor performers andthat's a drain on energy.
So it's being generous to apoint, but not to a fault.
Michael Hartmann (26:15):
So is there?
The word that keeps coming tomy head is another G word, which
is grace right, which I thinkis part of this.
Maybe that's what you'regetting to, but I always think
it's funny, because we've talkedabout trust right and trusting
in others, but I have alwayssaid, like, trust also requires
grace right, so when someone youknow doesn't live up to what
you had expected them to do,there's some grace to a point,
(26:37):
right, that's that like.
I love that these all gotogether.
Right, the accountability andthe generosity sound like they
would be opposites, but they can.
I think they the way you look.
You need to look at them asthings that can work together.
Carrie Fabris (26:50):
Totally can work together and you know it's.
It's a great reminder that allof us are going through
something.
All of us have our own journeys.
We have our own experiences,our own pasts.
We're thrown together at workwith this team that we didn't
choose right and we're justsupposed to.
Everything's supposed to begreat and good luck.
(27:10):
And so, having grace, givinggrace, generosity, you know,
things like the patience, thingslike that you don't have to
really like the person.
It's more of just taking thetime to appreciate your
generosity could even be I'mgoing to step away and I'm going
to let you go, do you?
So you're being generous withnot doing this to them like rah,
(27:32):
rah, rah right and verballyattacking.
Just be generous and step away.
So yeah, so I could absolutelysee how grace and generosity can
go hand in hand.
Got it Okay?
The I in magic is intention.
Michael Hartmann (27:46):
Intention okay .
Carrie Fabris (27:47):
And it's simple, it's lead with purpose and
meaning and it's kind of all ofthe above.
It's the mindset, it's theaccountability, it's the
generosity, it's beingintentional and being a clear
communicator, taking action withintention.
And you know, a great exampleof this was with remote workers
(28:09):
Okay, when?
So I've always led a remoteteam, dating back to 2007, when
I started my leadership careerat Google and I was in Dallas,
leading a team in Atlanta, andthere was no this, there was no
video then, right, like we hadgo-to meeting where you want to
see my desktop, but there wasn'tthe video piece.
(28:29):
Right, and you had to beintentional.
And when COVID hit, there wereso many people and companies
freaking out like I can'tconnect with my coworker.
Yes, you can.
Yes, you can, because actuallywe have video now, like I can
see you, whereas back in the dayI either had to email you or
(28:50):
call you.
And so intentional leadershipis not believing and I'm just
going to call them excuses likethat.
And this is coming from someonewho's an extrovert and I love
being around people- Yep, samehere.
So the extroverts?
I get it, you're like, but Ineed my people, I understand,
and it's an excuse to just well,I have to get on video.
(29:13):
Oh yeah, you do, it's beingintentional.
So it's doing everything withpurpose and um and showing that
you care and you're willing togo a little bit above and beyond
to make an impact, even if thatmeans I'm going to FaceTime you
right now so I can see yourface you know it's it's uh this
being intentional.
Michael Hartmann (29:34):
Yeah, I try all the time to be on camera as
much as I can, right, yeah, okay, we've got one more right, see,
and I want to.
I want to come back, once youget through that, to the impacts
of COVID for a second.
But, yeah, keep going.
Carrie Fabris (29:46):
Yeah, and then, lastly, the C is courage, and
it's doing hard things withgrace, like you said, and
compassion, and it's rolemodeling, the way it's creating
stability and hope and trustwith your team.
It's being the person otherswant to follow as being able to
have respectful, hardconversations and also be able
(30:07):
to motivate people and encouragepeople along the way.
Um, courage is is such avaluable character trait for
leaders and just being acourageous leader, those are the
people that others want tofollow.
So bringing magic to the teamas a leader is being mindful of
(30:29):
your mindset, drivingaccountability, being generous
with your time and your energy.
As long as someone doesn't takeadvantage of it, you still have
to protect your ROE, beingintentional and having that
courage.
Michael Hartmann (30:41):
Yeah, yeah, and this is all worked together
so well.
I mean, I'm just like all thesethings like cause you could,
with the generosity, be takenadvantage of, which requires
courage to have the toughconversation right.
That says hey, I think you'retaking advantage of me, maybe
courage to have the toughconversation right.
That says, hey, I think you'retaking advantage of me, maybe
not that explicitly right, but Ithink that's it's really.
(31:02):
It's a fascinating sort of wayof thinking about it.
I love how they all playtogether.
Okay, so go ahead, go ahead.
Carrie Fabris (31:08):
Oh, I was just going to say.
I know we're talking.
We've been talking a lot aboutleadership Like this is also
applicable for individuals too,because leadership is simply
influence.
It's not a title on a piece ofpaper, on a work chart with
direct reports, it is simplyinfluence, and so, as long as
you're influencing people aroundyou, that is leadership, and so
(31:38):
you can bring your own magic tothe team using the same
framework regardless if you havedirect reports or in a
leadership role or not.
Michael Hartmann (31:41):
No, I point that out, I totally agree with
that, and I was going to get tothat too, because I know, early
in my career I didn't alwaysfeel like I was a leader.
Um, some of that was justconfidence and things like that.
But also, just to think, Ihappen to work in places that
very kind of very hierarchical,um, some more formal and some
(32:01):
more informal, but I think it'sit's.
You know, one of the thingsI've tried to do when I have
been in sort of the you know,manager roles is to try to
provide an environment wherepeople can be leaders as well,
right?
So, whether that's helping themto learn new skills, putting
them in positions to test theircourage, right.
So just tell you things thatare hard, that they may not be
(32:24):
comfortable doing, but it willbe beneficial for them in the
long run.
So I'm totally with you on that.
So, all of our listeners outthere, just make sure that if
you're taking notes, take noteswhether you're a people leader
or not.
100%, 100% Okay.
So I'm curious, just yeah, causehe brought up COVID, one of the
(32:46):
things that I thought the whole, like all the lockdowns and
work remote and all that had.
Was it really exposed some ofthat?
Like, we are all human, human,right, we all have emotions, we
all have shit going on behind us, you know, whether we we bring
it to work or not, and I think Ithink that's actually gonna, in
the long run, going to be avery good thing, right, because
(33:07):
I think then, as a leader, youcan, it gives you the I don't
think a lot of leaders felt likethey could think about that
with their team.
Right, it had to be a business,so there's this box that you
could work in, and the same forthe people coming to work, right
, you know they feel like, oh mymy home life stuff, right, is
is my kitchen's, not my officeyeah, I can't, I can't bring
(33:29):
that in, or my kids are, youknow, going off the rails or
whatever.
Um, or you get more extreme,like we just had a miscarriage
and I don't want to tell anybodyabout it, like things like that
that are like, uh, it feelslike some of that got brought
out into the open, which I thinkultimately could it could be a
good thing.
Um, I do think for a lot ofpeople it was a little harder to
(33:50):
make those connections right.
I, I'm with you, right, I thinkit's a bit of an excuse.
I think you know how tools canenable that and you have to put
in a little extra effort.
Yeah, the downside I've seen andI'm continuing to see is like
it's really hard for some peopleto separate, right Cause.
So, like, yeah, you can see mybackground, right, I'm in the
middle of my house, that's whereI have my virtual studio, and
(34:11):
it's like you know, if I'm uphere I'm working, like I just
keep going until I realize, oh,it's dark out and I hear people
downstairs make dinner, waitingfor dinner.
So, like, are you seeing someof the same things?
Are you seeing that with yourclients?
And like, are they dealing withsome of this stuff and how is
this framework going to helpthem with that?
(34:33):
As far as separating, Wellseparating and I think, as we've
talked a little about, yeah,that separation part I think is
really tough for some people.
Carrie Fabris (34:45):
Yeah, I so.
I am seeing it get better.
It's hard to believe it's beenfive years.
It's crazy.
Yeah, don't know where thatfive years went and I have no
concept of time.
I just is it before COVID orafter COVID, bc or AC?
More people are back in theoffice.
(35:07):
That continues to increasecompany by company.
It's definitely seen that withmy clients as more people are
coming back to the office at aminimum, you know, three days a
week.
There's definitely a discipline.
There's an intentionaldiscipline between separating
(35:28):
and turning things off.
You know we are 100%responsible for ourselves.
We control what we do, what wesay, what we think, how we feel.
This is a hard concept for somepeople to wrap their brain
around, but no one can make youfeel any way.
You choose to feel that way.
Yeah, if you want moreinformation on how that works,
(35:50):
listen to man's search formeaning by victor frankl and you
will learn you.
You know what I'm saying Michael.
Michael Hartmann (35:58):
So for anybody who does not know this book, it
is maybe this I think I'veheard it's like the second most
read book in the in the worldbehind the Bible so unbelievable
it is incredible.
I didn't read it until a fewyears ago and it blew my mind.
Carrie Fabris (36:12):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's the most incredible book,incredible story around mindset
and how to be in control of howyou feel, and I mean it is a
perfect example of being ahundred percent responsible for
you.
Michael Hartmann (36:31):
Yeah.
Carrie Fabris (36:32):
And so we all have a choice.
And so, if, if, if someone'sstruggling with working at home,
be proactive, do something tochange the environment at home.
You know, if you, if thekitchen table is your office,
okay, well, is there.
A same way, you could add acertain move your kitchen table
(36:53):
somewhere, put a blind you knowone of those little stackable
blind things around it toseparate it.
Could you change?
You know, instead of it beingthe table, can you move to a
different part of the of yourapartment, of your house,
something like it is?
There's a discipline and anintention between making sure
you have the right environment,because, again back to ROE yeah,
are you?
(37:14):
Is your energy up?
Are you having a good return onyour energy based on the
environment you're in?
Yeah, and at home, you controlthat environment, usually now,
if you have roommates.
There's a discussion that needsto happen.
If you're living at home withparents, get, have a
conversation.
But you still are in control ofcreating that environment for
(37:35):
you and so I think that'sinteresting.
Michael Hartmann (37:37):
I I have a.
I have a relative,brother-in-law who is a longtime
police officer and I wastalking to him a couple of years
ago and I asked him like how doyou because I know that it's
really hard for police officersgoing in and out of the stuff
that they see every day- oh, I'msure Like not bring it home.
And I said, how do you managethat?
(37:58):
It was really interesting to methat he, he, he said the thing
that happens and the rest of thelike my wife and the girls know
, like when I put on the uniform, right, I'm now in work mode,
right, and don't like, yes, I'mjust that I'm in, like me, work
mode, and then when I come home,first thing I do change clothes
and and then sometimes take afew minutes to to sort of to get
(38:26):
ready.
And it's like it was interestingto me because I've always been
like.
I grew up in a time where, youknow, suit and tie was the norm,
and so for me, even when Istarted working remotely, or
even when places got to becasual or business casual, I
still like for me, if I don'tget up, take a shower, shave,
get dressed like I'm working Aroutine, yeah, yeah, it's, it's,
(38:49):
it's, I think that's so.
Are those kinds of thingshelpful, you think?
Carrie Fabris (38:53):
They are helpful Absolutely.
I mean, if you're going to bein pajamas, you know.
And again on camera we see fromhere up right Pajamas on the
bottom and again on camera.
We see from here up rightPajamas on the bottom but button
shirt on the top.
You know it, there is somepsychological thing that makes
an impact, um, you know, myhusband and I, whenever he works
(39:14):
from home too, so whenever wehave a good presentation, we
stand like I'm standing rightnow, um, because you just it's,
it's physical, it's a powerfulposition to be in.
So it's changing thatphysiology, changing what you're
focused on, change yourlanguage, it's changing the
state that you're in, andclothes is part of it.
So I'm so glad you said that,because I was going to give a
similar example of when you knowif you're with someone or
(39:35):
you're just like, and it doesn'tfeel good when you leave that
person, change clothes, dosomething to almost like shed
off what you had in thatsituation, take a shower, rinse
all that stuff off, like.
Those things matter.
And it's also sometimes good toum, every morning I'll just
write in a journal and it isstream of consciousness and I
(39:57):
don't reread it because itprobably would not make a lot of
sense, and it is just clearingmy head.
Michael Hartmann (40:03):
I've tried multiple times to do a journal.
It is not for me and so like,but yeah.
Carrie Fabris (40:09):
I was just recently given and some of your
listeners probably have thisbook If they're creatives.
It's called the artist's way,and she talks about writing.
We talked about running morningpages and someone just gave me
this book recently and I took itas okay.
There's some reason.
This book was put into my handsand so that's what I started
doing, which is the morningpages of just writing through
the consciousness and I don'tknow what it means and what it
says and don't read it again,and so there are just ways to
(40:31):
get us mentally in a betterplace, but it definitely takes
discipline, some structure,routine, and even if you're
someone you're like Carrie, Idon't like structure.
Michael Hartmann (40:57):
I, and even if you're someone, you're like
Carrie.
I don't like structure, I liketo be spontaneous, fly by the
spontaneous.
So I think about and I don'tknow if this is true.
I think it's a Steve Jobs story, right, where Steve Jobs
basically wore the same thingevery day yes, black turtleneck.
And I've heard of others too,where it's like part of why they
do that is that they're notusing energy to think about what
(41:18):
am I going to wear today.
Right, so they're using thatenergy towards other stuff.
Carrie Fabris (41:21):
And I think, yes, so it eliminates he had only so
much cognitive space and hedidn't want it.
That's exactly right.
Yeah, I love that story.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's sochanneling my Steve jobs today
with my black tops.
Michael Hartmann (41:34):
Oh well, I can't I did put some energy.
Well, good, I'm glad weappreciate that.
So one of the things that Ithink some of our listeners will
go to will maybe be thinking inthe back of their minds is okay
, this is all really interestingand great, but those are like
soft skills, right?
Yes, term is just in general,like I think it undermines it,
(42:00):
but, um, cause, I think a lot ofskills can be, can be learned,
even if they're not.
Quote hard skills, right.
What, what, what do you?
Carrie Fabris (42:14):
what's your take on all that?
Yeah, I I definitely think thatreferring to the stuff I'm
talking to as soft skills candiminish the importance and the
impact in professional andpersonal success.
And really, in reality, theseskills are like communication,
emotional intelligence,adaptability, leadership, et
cetera.
They're really anything butsoft.
They are essential and they arelearnable and they're
(42:35):
measurable competencies that aregoing to help us with
collaboration and decisionmaking, et cetera, and the idea
that these skills are likepurely innate is kind of a
common misconception, I think.
So some individuals may have anatural inclination towards
certain interpersonal abilitiesright, and research has shown
that with intentional practice,coaching, feedback, we can all
(42:58):
significantly improve in theseareas of, again, communication,
active listening, conflictresolution I like to talk about
having constructive conflict andpeople are like wait what Well,
I'm a big fan of maybe you'veheard of it crucial
confrontations.
Crucial confrontations.
I think we talked about thatthe first time we spoke.
Michael Hartmann (43:17):
Yeah, I tell people all the time, one of the
reasons I love it I've evenrecommended it to my kids
because I think it's a life,it's a, it's a tool, it's a
framework that can help you inbusiness and in personal life,
and all over.
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (43:29):
Yes, so, yeah.
So, just as we invest time indeveloping technical skills okay
With taking a class to getbetter on coding or, you know,
technology, innovation, whateverwe can develop these soft
skills, or let's just call themhuman skills.
Okay.
So I think human skills mightsound- how about just call them
skills?
They're just skills, necessaryskills, and we can do that,
(43:51):
again, through intention andtraining and coaching and just
real world application andawareness and practice.
And I think the more you know,more we do that, the better,
because more research is comingout that EQ is a higher
indication of success at workthan IQ, and you know it's, it's
.
It's important and again,especially as the workforce gets
(44:13):
younger, the younger folks Idon't want to call them kids,
but younger, younger people arecaring about human skills more
than the Gen Xers, the Boomers,those generations, the
Millennials, the Gen Zs, the GenY, I don't even know what
generation we're on now, butthose generations are bringing
(44:37):
this amazing, refreshing look onhuman skills.
And that's also why there wasthe mass exodus during COVID.
The whole people leaving it wasbecause the world is coming to
an end.
Why am I giving all my energyto a company that doesn't see me
, hear me, appreciate me?
And that's where a lot ofpeople left their jobs.
(44:59):
That's interesting, yeah, so thehuman skills are crucial to
success and organizationalhealth.
Michael Hartmann (45:04):
Yeah Well, and I think I like I will just
reiterate I believe, I trulybelieve that those skills can be
learned.
You can get better at you.
May not be 100%, you may not bethe most eloquent gifted public
speaker, but you can get betterat it, right.
Carrie Fabris (45:18):
Well, and again, sorry to like if it sounds harsh
I'm I'm a little bit of a toughlove coach.
It's an excuse, yeah, it's anexcuse, and it is also tied to
our energy.
Okay, so it's all connected.
It is an excuse to not.
I can't do that.
Well, I can't, or you won't.
(45:40):
Very different you can try.
Yeah, If you won't do somethingand it makes me uncomfortable,
it's a drain again, not a goodROE.
They don't do it.
At least explore that wholething versus just going.
Oh, that's not me.
I could never learn that youcan, you won't because it is a
(46:00):
low ROE and that's okay.
But let's just call it what itis.
Michael Hartmann (46:04):
Yeah, it reminds me of one of my all-time
favorite quotes, which I do nothave memorized, but it's the
you can look it up.
The Theodore Roosevelt man inthe arena quote.
Are you familiar with that?
Essentially, it's like at theend, it's like if you don't try,
you won't win or lose.
(46:25):
Right, if you try you may lose,but at least you'll have tried
and you can.
You know it's like.
So I don't want to get to theend of, you know, my life and go
.
I wish I had done Totally.
Carrie Fabris (46:36):
I wish.
Michael Hartmann (46:37):
I had not, and so, like I think there's
something to be said for like,look, it's a hard thing to do,
Do the hard thing.
Carrie Fabris (46:43):
Well, and here's the thing.
So can I touch on failure for asecond Speaking?
Michael Hartmann (46:48):
of doing hard things.
Let's do that.
Yeah.
Well, I think it'll be goodbecause I think this is a.
It's been a tough couple ofyears for people in this space
right, with lots of layoffs andpeople on job loss and try to
figure out what to do.
So, yes, absolutely.
I wouldn't even call thatfailure, but just the difficult
situation, right.
Yeah, so, so so many people saythey have a fear of failure.
Carrie Fabris (47:16):
In my experience personally and as a coach for
for the last decade, it's notthat, it's something deeper.
When we immediately go to, oh,I have a fear of X, that's going
to be surface level.
There is some other root causethat's a little deeper than that
.
But with failure we have tofail.
(47:38):
Failure is simply learning.
It is simply learning.
It is here to teach us anincredible lesson that we're
supposed to get from thatfailure.
And if we have a fear of failureand we just hang our hat on
that, we're essentially sayingwe're afraid to grow, we're
afraid to grow, we're afraid tolearn.
(47:58):
And again, don't mean not tosound harsh, it's just that
that's just how that lands andthis is where the magic happens.
Speaking of magic, the magichappens outside of our comfort
zone.
We've probably all seen thatvisual right, like here's a
little circle, the arrow pointsover here and like this is where
all the magic happens and it'sout of our comfort zone.
(48:18):
And so when we fail, if we lookat failure as a teacher, we
look at fear as a teacher aswell.
Fear gets louder the longer weavoid doing something.
Michael Hartmann (48:32):
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (48:32):
And it gets louder because it's trying to
get our attention.
It's like I'm actually notgoing to go away.
I'm going to get more annoyinguntil you do this thing.
And the minute you do thatthing, fear goes away.
Michael Hartmann (48:44):
Well, I think we often tell ourselves a story
about how awful that is going tobe, totally Sometimes it is but
in most cases in my experience,it's never near as bad as you
think it's going to be.
Carrie Fabris (48:55):
A lot of times, most times when you leap, the
net will appear Some net,whatever the net is meant to be
for you.
But a net is going to appearand this is where resilience is
really important.
I'm just helping us pickourselves back up trust that
we're exactly where we'resupposed to be.
We're going to be okay.
Sometimes we're going to befreaking awesome.
(49:17):
Sometimes we're going to bewe're just going to have to sit
in the suck for a minute.
But there is a lesson that allof us can learn in all of those
facets of life, and so fear offailure.
I have fun with people who tellme that I'm like okay, I come
here, let me, let me help you,let me help you understand that
(49:39):
failure is is actually doingsomething for you, not against
you.
So I just wanted to share that,yeah.
Michael Hartmann (49:46):
No, I think it's good.
I mean, I think, whether it'sMan's Search for Meaning or A
Brave New World, right, thisidea they've kind of
diametrically opposed, actually,I guess and like, but the idea
like, oh, we would all behappier if we didn't have
challenges or failures in ourlives is really false.
Like we just it would.
It's not human nature.
Carrie Fabris (50:06):
It'd be bored out of mind.
It'd be bored, and boredom isworse than failure?
Michael Hartmann (50:10):
Yeah, I mean, I think it would be, and so I
think, um, there's like a lessonlearned from this is just like,
yeah, that resilience, uh,realizing that whatever your
stuff you're dealing with, youcan overcome, it is something
that's a good lesson to learn.
Carrie Fabris (50:27):
It doesn't mean it's going to be easy.
Michael Hartmann (50:28):
It doesn't mean it's not going to come with
more punches to the face.
Carrie Fabris (50:31):
Again, pain is the path to joy with almost
everything, and so it's thecourage to go through the pain.
Don't push it off, because it'sjust going to get louder Again.
We push off stuff that comes inacross our path.
It gets louder and heavier,yeah.
If we find the courage, find thesupport system.
Not coping right, that'sdifferent.
(50:51):
Finding support system to gothrough whatever that pain is,
you will get, all of us will getto the other side and get to
the joy, and then we'll lookback at all the things we
learned along the way.
Michael Hartmann (51:04):
Yes, yes.
Well, you can't have onewithout the other.
So that's right.
That's right.
It feels like it's a greatplace to stop Carrie.
So much fun talking about this.
I love this stuff and I thinkthis is a great will be really
helpful for everybody who'slistening and watching this.
So if folks want to learn moreabout you or what you're talking
about and that kind of stuff,what's the best way for them to
(51:26):
do that?
Carrie Fabris (51:27):
Yeah, so they can go to my website,
kerryfabricecom.
I've got everything on therethat I do.
I am in the process of startingto record a bunch of little
video snippets, a video seriesthat I'm going to post on
LinkedIn.
It's all around ROE and settingit up with how do you find your
ROE with insert topic.
So I'm going to just startdoing this and having fun so you
(51:49):
can connect with me on LinkedIn.
If you connect with me onLinkedIn, please tell me that
you heard me here.
So I'm like who is this person?
Cause I don't accept all um,all invitations, cause I'm like
I don't know who this person is.
But if you tell me you know youheard me on the podcast, then I
certainly will want to inviteyou into my community and let
(52:10):
you look around on my littlevideos.
But thank you for having me.
I definitely had an amazing ROEpersonally.
Michael Hartmann (52:14):
Oh good, so did I, so did I.
So it was really fun Even onthis cloudy gray day, here in
Dallas Exactly.
Carrie Fabris (52:21):
It's where, just to bring everything up, despite
the clouds and the 26 degreeweather that's on its way here
again.
Michael Hartmann (52:26):
Yes, I'm looking forward to covering
plants here in a few hours.
Carrie Fabris (52:32):
I gave up.
Michael Hartmann (52:32):
I just gave up .
Yeah Well, carrie.
Again, thank you so much.
Thank you Thanks to all of ourlisteners out there for
continuing to support us, asalways.
If you have ideas for guests ortopics or want to be a guest,
reach out to Naomi, mike or meand we'll be happy to talk to
you about it.
Till next time, bye, everybody.
Hello everyone , welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom.
I'm your host, michael Hartman.
I am joined by just our guestagain today.
So the guest today is KeriFabris, who is the founder and
chief reframer of CareerFrame,where she provides career
executive coaching, leadershipdevelopment, advising and
facilitating, with a focus onteam dynamics.
(00:21):
Prior to launching CareerFrame,she spent 20 plus years with
companies like Google,travelocity, sabre and more, and
in leadership for 15 plus yearsleading national sales and
account management teams.
She uses tools like Clifton'sStrengthFinder, emotional
intelligence, situationalleadership and various other
frameworks, some of which wewill discuss here today, to help
(00:41):
leaders and teams thrive ateffective communication that
drives engagement, energy andaccountability toward impactful
results.
You've got a great background,keri, so thank you for joining
us today.
Carrie Fabris (00:55):
It's such a pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Michael Hartmann (00:58):
Yeah, I think this is going to be good.
I think when we talked before,I think I was yeah, is this
something that would be foreverybody, for people who are
leaders?
And I think it's going to bethe former right, so, but I'm
looking forward to talk to youabout your career growth and
having you share some of yourrecommendations from your
(01:18):
experience, both in the seats,if you will, as well as being a
coach, mentor, whatever.
So why don't we start there?
One of the things that you aterm that you used with me when
we first talked was this conceptof return on energy, which I
think I was having a hard timearticulating what you mean by
that.
So why don't we start there?
What do you mean by that, andhow can our listeners, whether
(01:42):
they're individual contributorsor people managers, apply this?
Say today, tomorrow, right,this week.
Carrie Fabris (01:49):
Yeah, happy to dive into that, and yes, I don't
know that this is going to be atypical episode of what your
audience is used to living orlistening to.
Michael Hartmann (01:56):
We don't have a typical episode.
Carrie Fabris (01:59):
Not the marketing expert, definitely the
leadership and leadership expertand just helping people be the
better version of themselves atwork and in life as well.
And so return on energy, orwhat I also call ROE, is this
concept that I came up with.
Energy is really important tome personally, and I'm you know
(02:19):
how we feel so different whenour energy is high, when our
energy is low.
So started playing with thisconcept and, if you think about
it, it's very similar to an ROI.
Okay, so we're all familiarwith ROI and that's primarily a
concept and method that is goingto help us assess financial
performance and return.
And so ROE return on energy isa concept or method that's used
(02:42):
more for assessing your energylevel or the worth or the
reserve of energy that you'reusing towards something.
So, for example, if we are facedwith doing a task, committing
to a decision, making a choice,most of us innately are going to
have a feeling that either welike this or we don't like this.
Sometimes there's a I'm notsure I need more context, I
(03:05):
don't know enough about it and,as a certified Gallup Clifton
strengths coach, I want toemphasize the importance of
playing to one's strengths.
And so that was that mean toplay to our strengths.
It means that we're doingthings that we innately enjoy
because they energize us versusdrain us.
Um, we'll get energized doingcertain things, but we will also
(03:27):
get drained by doing certainthings, and so how we apply this
concept is kind of simple, andlet me set this up by saying
your vibe attracts your tribe.
You ever heard that saying?
Michael Hartmann (03:42):
No, I mean it sounds like a birds of a feather
kind of thing.
But yeah, it makes sense.
Carrie Fabris (03:47):
I saw it in a Dove chocolate wrapper one time,
not going to lie and I was likelove this but it is basically
your vibe attracts your tribe.
Which is what you're puttingout, is kind of what you're
going to get back.
Michael Hartmann (03:57):
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (03:57):
And so you know sometimes when you're like, are
you vibing?
Are you vibing right now?
If you look at it as a vibe, isit a good vibe or is it a not
awesome vibe?
Are you high, are you low withhow you're feeling?
So when we look at this verysimple four-step process of
figuring out your return onenergy, first step is verify
(04:19):
your feelings.
Okay, so kind of check in withyourself.
How does this task decisionsituation make you feel?
Does it excite you, motivateyou or drain you from an energy
perspective?
If it feels exhausting, beforeyou even begin, you probably
want to pause and assess.
Second step is identifying theimpact, so kind of evaluating
(04:40):
what's the potential payoff forwhat I'm about to do with this
task, commitment or choice.
Is it going to move you forward?
Is it going to strengthen arelationship?
Is it going to create somethingmeaningful?
If the outcome's valuable, it'sprobably worth the energy.
If it's not, you want toreconsider.
And then the third step isreally going to balance the cost
(05:01):
, or consider what it's going tocost you from a time, effort,
emotional bandwidth, moneyperspective, and can your energy
be spent better elsewhere, oris this the right path?
So if the investment's too highfor a little gain, you want to
look for alternatives.
If the investment short orlong-term which I'm sure we'll
(05:22):
get to talking about that as faras living in a world of
immediate gratification thesedays then you might want to stay
the course.
And then the fourth step isexecute or eliminate.
So if the energy is well spent,if it fuels the growth and
success moving forward, executeit.
If it depletes you and youcannot feel good and justify the
return, you let it go.
(05:44):
And you don't want to get it.
Michael Hartmann (05:47):
So when we first talked about this concept
of energy, I actually thought ofa different assessment.
I thought of Myers-Briggs,where you have the introversion,
extroversion right, which hasgot that whole yeah, great.
One Like you get energy or youlose energy in either domain,
depending on what yourpreference is.
So I mean, are you talkingabout because I think, I think,
(06:07):
I think a lot of our listenerslike me might think, oh, when
you talk about re-eternity, thatmeans like I'm going to be the
cheerleader, I'm going to beextroverted, like extroverted Is
.
I mean, is that what you'retalking about or is this
something like?
Carrie Fabris (06:26):
if I'm an introvert, cause I might be
going like that's really hardfor me, it is going to be
draining to do that.
So how does that play into this?
Is it different related?
Yeah, great question.
So it's not necessarilydependent on extrovert,
introvert, because extrovertsand introverts, regardless of
which category you fall in,you're still a human, you're
still uniquely you, and energylands differently for you, Sure?
So, you know, kind ofstereotypical introvert needs
time away from people, quiet,alone time to decompress and
(06:51):
kind of build that energy backup.
That's just that depends on theperson.
Extroverts might get moreenergy from walking in a room,
socializing and meeting newpeople, but I'm talking more
about each person's innatefeeling of am I feeling
energized today on variouslevels, various categories, or
(07:11):
am I depleted?
So, like you and I are both inthe DFW area and the weather is
like we're living in Londonright now, and I love, I love
London, one of my favoritecities.
Michael Hartmann (07:21):
I thought about that every day this week.
Carrie Fabris (07:23):
This weather is like I'm like where is the sun?
I need the sun, right yeah, andit is impacting me
energetically and so it's it'smore that it's kind of like what
impacts us based on ourpersonality type so.
Michael Hartmann (07:35):
So it's also not motivation.
I mean, you're talking aboutsomething that's got bits and
pieces I think of likeintroversion, extroversion,
motivation, not motivated, notmotivated.
It feels like yeah, okay.
And there's another bit and Ithink it was the third step you
described where you're kind ofdoing a mental calculation.
It almost sounds like withinROE that process, you're doing
an ROI right Like a mini oneright Because it's a balance the
(07:59):
cost.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a juiceworth the squeeze, right.
Carrie Fabris (08:03):
Yes, yes, it is very much an investment.
It's an investment of yourenergy versus an investment of
dollars, which, within energy,it's an investment of time and
an investment of emotions.
It's basically the human side,the human skills of what you're
investing.
Michael Hartmann (08:21):
So just one more thing and then we can maybe
move on.
But, um, the another thoughtthat comes to me, like, like, I
love this idea, right, investingtime into things that are going
to produce results, that arealso not going to completely
drain, if it's of energy at thesame time.
Almost all this, and like thisis a lesson I've had to teach my
kids.
(08:41):
Right, we all have to do thingswe don't really want to do
sometimes.
So how does that factor intothis, right?
Do you just kind of like figureout, okay, what is it?
What level of energy do I needto put towards this that I don't
really want to do, because Ihave to do it, but I don't want
to end up not be able to do thethings I do want to do.
Carrie Fabris (09:01):
Yeah, when it comes to, when it comes, to put
you know, assessing, puttingenergy towards something you
don't want to do, that's where Ithink this method and this
concept is really important,because, as part of the
evaluation process or theassessing and the balancing, the
cost and things like that iscan I see?
Can I see the gain?
(09:23):
So there's something that I sayoften to my clients, which is
pain is the road to joy.
Unfortunately, most times Ihave yet not saying it's not
there, but I've yet to find asituation where you got joy
without pain.
So it is assessing the wholecycle Again.
(09:44):
A lot of us live in thisimmediate gratification I want
to feel good right now, and alot of times that's not the case
.
We have to be able to look tothe future and just say can I
see this paying off?
And being responsible suckssometimes.
Yeah, it does.
It's not fine.
You have to be responsible.
(10:04):
If we can see what thatresponsibility can lead to in
the future and it's a good thing, then that's where we tap into
resilience, we tap into courage,we tap into growth, mindset,
all of these things to get there.
Some things are going to bepretty immediate.
You might think, oh my gosh,this sounds amazing.
It's totally my jam.
(10:25):
I love this stuff.
Let's go.
You focus on it, you act, youget the great results you want
the conclusion you were hopingfor Everyone's happy, amazing,
immediate, aren't we?
Other times again, you've gotto see the importance in the
future and it's the long,sometimes hard work ahead to
achieve that desired return.
But you're still going toinvest that energy because
(10:46):
there's a higher purpose that'spulling you to do so.
Michael Hartmann (10:49):
So return might be a delay.
Yeah, I mean, I think that thatthat scenario you're talking
about, where there's a longerterm delay, I immediately go
towards leadership things likewhere you're trying to, you know
, coach or mentor somebody whomaybe is not performing as well
as they could, and you see thatand you want to help them.
Right, it takes time to investin that.
Carrie Fabris (11:11):
That and like startups, people, founders of
startups, like they have thisvision, they have this dream,
they birthed this baby andthey've got to.
You know, they got to go andget capital on them, they got to
fundraise, they got to buildthe team and most startups don't
just.
Oh my gosh, instant you startedthis last week, I'd like to buy
you for $1 billion, like thatdoesn't work that way.
(11:32):
So that's a perfect example ofinvesting the energy for that
hopefully high return later downthe road.
And then there you know againthere's other quick wins Like I
really want a burger right now.
I'm going to get in my car andgo get a burger.
I'm going to take my energy andgo drive down the street and
you get that burger and you'reeating it.
You're so happy.
(11:52):
So it just depends.
And what I love about thisconcept is you literally can
apply it to absolutelyeverything.
Just to maximize your time,your energy, what you're
focusing on and and and.
When we do this, it ensuresthat we're staying at that high
energy level.
A whole lot of not awesomestuff follows when our energy is
low.
(12:12):
Yeah, our mind goes in not greatplaces.
Michael Hartmann (12:16):
So this immediate gratification kind of
concept, you know it.
It maybe it's because I haven'treally traveled a lot of places
, I've, you know, but it feelslike it's a particularly
American, maybe Western kind ofscenario where people are just
expecting go, go, go, go, go go.
Carrie Fabris (12:35):
And younger and younger people.
Michael Hartmann (12:43):
Yeah, I mean it's how does like, how does
like, how do we, how do we helpour listeners think about this
return on energy when fig the,the return part is down the road
?
Right, how do they?
How do, can they think aboutthat?
Carrie Fabris (12:52):
yeah, so.
So this is where um and againthis is, this is human skills.
We're talking aboutpredominantly right and the, and
I talk about mich, and so thisis when I encourage people to
stop and kind of do an RPM,which is what's the result I'm
going for, what's the purpose,what's the massive action I need
to take, and it's once youunderstand why you want
(13:19):
something so badly.
The next step is patience andmaking sure that each day,
you're doing something that'smoving you forward.
Um if you are not doing thingsthat are moving you forward and
you're just expecting it to landin your lap.
You know there might be somegrowth opportunity there to
think about this differently.
Um, as I said, I think with theMaybe a little bit of adulting.
Michael Hartmann (13:41):
That needs to happen.
Carrie Fabris (13:42):
Yeah, I was going to say with, with, with younger
, with younger people, and youand I have kids, I think, that
are similar to the same age andI know they're not listening to
this podcast.
But younger generations havegrown up with immediate.
We remember before there werecell phones and before there was
the fax machine, you had to goto the library to look up
(14:03):
something.
Yeah, a microfiche, microfiche,yeah.
Michael Hartmann (14:06):
People were like what is?
Carrie Fabris (14:06):
microfiche, what is that?
And dial-up and just all thatstuff.
And so it is learning how to bepatient and understanding that.
You know, sometimes we speed up.
I mean we slow down to speed up.
Michael Hartmann (14:20):
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (14:20):
It's the classic.
Sorry to get all cheesy, butit's the tortoise and the hare
kind of thing.
Sometimes slow and steady winsthe race.
Michael Hartmann (14:28):
So it is ready , ready aim fire, sort of ready
fire aim right.
Yes, yes, exactly so.
Carrie Fabris (14:33):
It's active practice and awareness of how
much you want something.
Think about how much energyyou're putting into, how badly
you want this thing right nowand you're not going to get it
right now.
Is that thought process a goodROE?
Probably not Right.
So even when we're thinkingabout our energy, we can do an
(14:55):
ROE process on the thought aboutenergy and that gratification.
Michael Hartmann (14:59):
Well, I mean, I'm sure everyone has had a
scenario like, oh, I need to putaway six things, right, I have
two hands and two arms.
I could carry them all, but thelikelihood that I'll make it to
the destination, like puttingfood away or something, and a
number of times I've done thatand then drop something.
So I was thinking I'm doingsomething that could go quickly
(15:21):
and it turns out to be takingtwo, three, four times as long
because I dropped something.
It splatters everywhere,Something breaks right?
Carrie Fabris (15:27):
Yeah, because you're moving too fast.
Michael Hartmann (15:29):
Yeah, or I'm, or I'm.
I think that's.
That's a scenario that one'shitting home, because this
actually happened in my houseNot with me last week, same
friend.
Carrie Fabris (15:45):
Well, earlier you asked about um.
You know how to apply this inin the spirit of immediate
gratification.
So I've got some examples foryour for you all, your listeners
around at the end of workplace,for example, for you, all your
listeners around in theworkplace, for example.
So some things that can beimmediate ROE is delegation.
So if you're just spinning yourwheels, working on something,
(16:06):
it's not in your strength zone,or if you're a leader and you
have someone on your team thatyou can move something to
delegate it.
Just give something to someonethat you trust, take it off your
plate, you know it's taken careof and you're going to reserve
your energy instead of like anexhausting email thread back and
forth.
Okay, that's another thing.
Just like back and forth, backand forth.
Just go old school, pick up thephone, discuss everything for
(16:30):
about five minutes, and that toois an immediate ROE, because
there's clarity, we gotunderstanding, we're not having
any emails on this topic.
And another very simpleapplication of ROE that I would
love to see more people takeadvantage of, and a lot do not
hurts my heart a little bitwhich is taking breaks
(16:52):
throughout the day.
Michael Hartmann (16:55):
Okay, so work 50.
Carrie Fabris (16:56):
Yeah, we all are.
But work 50 minutes, 5-0, stepaway for 10.
Watch your productivity andyour energy increase.
I mean, taking that 10-minutebreak is going to help you work
smarter, not harder, and that isan instant positive ROE.
I recently I'm not sure whattook me so long to do this, but
last year I moved all of my 60minute sessions to 50 minute
(17:20):
sessions.
Dramatic impact, positiveimpact, Like I would look at my
calendar and perhaps some of youcan relate to this and it is
non-freaking-stop Zoom afterZoom after Zoom after Zoom, or
team after team after team tocall after call.
It's just like non-stop.
Stop, Zoom after zoom afterzoom after zoom, or team after
team after team to call aftercall.
It's just like nonstop.
(17:41):
And it was causing me stressjust to look at the visual of it
.
And just changing to those 15minute sessions, that gives me
10 minutes to stand up, walkaway, refill the water, shake it
off, prepare for the nextmeeting, decompress from the
last meeting.
Michael Hartmann (17:51):
Yeah.
Carrie Fabris (17:52):
Makes such an amazing difference and it's a it
is an immediate impact on ROE.
Michael Hartmann (17:59):
Yeah, an amazing difference and it's a.
It is an immediate impact onroe.
Yeah, and I'd like it was true,it's.
I feel.
I almost feel guilty about thisbecause I know all this right,
yeah, I'm somewhat familiar withat least was with brain
research and how well, first off, how little we know, but how
much we're learning in the lastfew years and they, every time
we talk about this right Breaks,not multitasking, like all
(18:20):
these things are really wellknown to be good habits to do,
and I still am terrible about it.
Just like people are going tosee me drinking water here.
It's about the only time Idrink water through the day
because I just simply forget Iget busy.
Carrie Fabris (18:36):
There's a lot of achievers through the day
because I just simply forget Iget busy.
There's a lot of achievers Froma strengths perspective.
Achiever is the number onetalent theme that shows up the
most often in top five.
Okay, case in point, andachievers are usually heads down
.
I got to crank it out.
I got stuff to do and it's adifferent concept to think you
could actually do more if youtook breaks throughout the day.
(18:59):
So yeah, I'm here to help youfigure that out, michael.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Michael Hartmann (19:04):
I need that nudge.
It's interesting the idea ofdelegation.
I think a lot of people whoespecially if they're this is
one of the things when I coachpeople who are new to people
management delegation is onethat seems like it'd be an
obvious one where you can gainsome advantage.
But it's really hard for thesepeople, because it was hard for
(19:25):
me too.
What's really hard is to to tohand this off to somebody.
You can't just go go do itRight, unless you happen to have
somebody who works for you, youknow can do it.
Do it If it's something, a newskill or new things that they
have to learn.
Somebody who works for you, youknow, can do it.
Do it If it's something, a newskill or new things that they
have to learn.
You have to teach them.
So you have to invest in that.
Right, yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah.
Carrie Fabris (19:43):
Well, that that and trust them.
Michael Hartmann (19:45):
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (19:46):
So people who have, you know, are high
responsibility.
They, they said they would getsomething done to somebody else,
and so the thought of passingit to someone else is like, oh
my gosh, but what if they don'tdo it right?
So the adage of I'll just do itmyself, because it'll be faster
than do it myself, versusteaching someone how to do it,
(20:08):
and then you're just stuck inthis loop.
So yeah, so I do encouragepeople if they have trust issues
, do not delegate anything tothat person if you don't trust
them, because it's got to belike hand it off and let go.
Otherwise you're annoying, likehow about now?
Did you get it done?
Well, how about now?
Are you doing it right?
And now it becomesmicromanagement, and no one
(20:29):
wants that, not that I have metso far.
Michael Hartmann (20:32):
I have not met anyone who's admitted.
I've never run into anyone whowould admit that they want, like
, being micromanaged.
I have had people who I'veworked with who were better when
they were micromanaged.
I just never said that Right,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And maybe micromanage is notthis like constant follow-up,
but more like here's the list ofthings you need to do.
Carrie Fabris (20:52):
Right, well, that's also classic situational
leadership, as far as how westep up to lead someone based on
how they need to be led.
Michael Hartmann (21:01):
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (21:01):
And some people do need to be told because, on a
specific task, because theirability and willingness is low.
If they have high willingnessbut low ability, we coach them,
we don't tell them.
We coach them.
And then if there's low abilityor high ability, low
willingness, it's usuallyinsecurity, so we encourage them
.
And when there's high abilityor high ability, low willingness
, it's usually insecurity, so weencourage them.
And when there's high abilityand high willingness, we trust
(21:22):
them.
Yeah, that was a boom, likeflash of situational leadership
right there in like 10 secondsor less.
Michael Hartmann (21:29):
No, I mean at that point.
Another thing that I do with alot of new leaders is, like your
job is to adapt to your team,right?
Not the other way around, yes,so yeah, you need to play the
whole play to their strengthsscenario.
So, um, all right.
So another concept you and Italked about is this, uh, magic
(21:51):
framework, which I know is anacronym.
Acronym, um, what, what is thatand how is it?
Maybe a little bit about likejust high level, what is that?
Maybe is it tied to what wejust talked about, the roe, or
is it kind of a differentconcept altogether yeah, so
there definitely is somesimilarities.
Carrie Fabris (22:11):
um, I think we all need a little magic in our
lives, especially at work, andthis has nothing to do with
spells and wands and HarryPotter, even though I'm a huge
fan.
This is just another simpleframework to check yourself, to
make sure you are bringing themagic to your team.
(22:32):
And how do you know if you aredoing that, when you can take
inventory on five categories.
Doing that, when you can takeinventory on five categories, so
it's mindset, accountability,generosity, intention and
courage.
And if you have all of theseand they're also coming from a
positive place of strengths,then you're definitely bringing
magic to your team.
So it's a fun concept to workwith.
(22:54):
Do you want me to go deeper?
Michael Hartmann (22:55):
on those.
Yeah, I mean, we'd love to golike so let me replay so,
mindset, accountability,generosity, which is an
interesting one by itself,attention encourage, so, yeah,
so maybe walk through those oneat a time, yeah.
Carrie Fabris (23:08):
Okay, so, yeah.
So when we think about mindset,back to what I said your vibe
attracts your tribe, okay, andwhat you're putting out is kind
of what you're going to get.
One of my favorite quotes is aTony Robbins quote, actually,
and it says where focus goes,energy flows.
And so it's again that samething when you're putting
something out, you're going toget back that reflects what
(23:31):
you're putting back.
So, when it comes to mindset,absolutely figure out your ROE
when it comes to how you'rethinking and all the energy
you're spending thinking aboutthings.
And is it positive thinking, isit negative thinking?
And when I say positive, Idon't mean jazz hands,
everything's awesome.
That's not realistic.
It's more of having thisoptimism, and so it's growth
(23:54):
mindset versus a fixed mindset,it's open versus closed.
It's, you know, realizing thatour attitudes are contagious and
it impacts the culture aroundus.
So having that strong,encouraging mindset is really
important as a leader,especially the A.
(24:15):
So showing accountability, andthis is having a high say-do
ratio.
It's doing what you say youwill do, it's being reliable,
it's responsible, it's rolemodeling, that for other people
and holding others accountableas well, and so accountability
and productivity go hand in hand.
And so nothing drives me morenuts than a leader that
(24:38):
basically do as I say, not as Ido, and it's like why would
people want to follow you ifyou're not going to show that
you're accountable as well?
And then generosity, like yousaid, is kind of an interesting
one.
This is really where emotionalintelligence lives.
So this is about being generouswith your compassion and with
the human side.
(24:59):
Okay, so if you know empathy isI work with a lot of leaders
who actually have low empathy,according to their assessment,
and always tell them I'm likedoesn't mean you don't care, it
means that it's uncomfortable,it's not, it drains you to get
in the boat with that person andtheir issue.
(25:20):
You can still be generous with.
I see you, are you okay?
Is there something I can helpyou with?
I'll let you know if I can orcannot deliver to that.
And really being thatcompassionate leader, it's also
keeping in mind.
I kind of cringe whenever Ihear someone say remove all
(25:40):
emotion from this conversation,because humans cannot do that.
Humans cannot physically,neurologically, all of the
things cannot remove all emotion.
But we can use our emotionintelligently and we can be
generous with our time and ourenergy that we're giving to
somebody, as long as we'reseeing again a return on that.
(26:04):
Energy Leaders sometimes theyput up with too much for too
long from poor performers andthat's a drain on energy.
So it's being generous to apoint, but not to a fault.
Michael Hartmann (26:15):
So is there?
The word that keeps coming tomy head is another G word, which
is grace right, which I thinkis part of this.
Maybe that's what you'regetting to, but I always think
it's funny, because we've talkedabout trust right and trusting
in others, but I have alwayssaid, like, trust also requires
grace right, so when someone youknow doesn't live up to what
you had expected them to do,there's some grace to a point,
(26:37):
right, that's that like.
I love that these all gotogether.
Right, the accountability andthe generosity sound like they
would be opposites, but they can.
I think they the way you look.
You need to look at them asthings that can work together.
Carrie Fabris (26:50):
Totally can work together and you know it's.
It's a great reminder that allof us are going through
something.
All of us have our own journeys.
We have our own experiences,our own pasts.
We're thrown together at workwith this team that we didn't
choose right and we're justsupposed to.
Everything's supposed to begreat and good luck.
(27:10):
And so, having grace, givinggrace, generosity, you know,
things like the patience, thingslike that you don't have to
really like the person.
It's more of just taking thetime to appreciate your
generosity could even be I'mgoing to step away and I'm going
to let you go, do you?
So you're being generous withnot doing this to them like rah,
(27:32):
rah, rah right and verballyattacking.
Just be generous and step away.
So yeah, so I could absolutelysee how grace and generosity can
go hand in hand.
Got it Okay?
The I in magic is intention.
Michael Hartmann (27:46):
Intention okay .
Carrie Fabris (27:47):
And it's simple, it's lead with purpose and
meaning and it's kind of all ofthe above.
It's the mindset, it's theaccountability, it's the
generosity, it's beingintentional and being a clear
communicator, taking action withintention.
And you know, a great exampleof this was with remote workers
(28:09):
Okay, when?
So I've always led a remoteteam, dating back to 2007, when
I started my leadership careerat Google and I was in Dallas,
leading a team in Atlanta, andthere was no this, there was no
video then, right, like we hadgo-to meeting where you want to
see my desktop, but there wasn'tthe video piece.
(28:29):
Right, and you had to beintentional.
And when COVID hit, there wereso many people and companies
freaking out like I can'tconnect with my coworker.
Yes, you can.
Yes, you can, because actuallywe have video now, like I can
see you, whereas back in the dayI either had to email you or
(28:50):
call you.
And so intentional leadershipis not believing and I'm just
going to call them excuses likethat.
And this is coming from someonewho's an extrovert and I love
being around people- Yep, samehere.
So the extroverts?
I get it, you're like, but Ineed my people, I understand,
and it's an excuse to just well,I have to get on video.
(29:13):
Oh yeah, you do, it's beingintentional.
So it's doing everything withpurpose and um and showing that
you care and you're willing togo a little bit above and beyond
to make an impact, even if thatmeans I'm going to FaceTime you
right now so I can see yourface you know it's it's uh this
being intentional.
Michael Hartmann (29:34):
Yeah, I try all the time to be on camera as
much as I can, right, yeah, okay, we've got one more right, see,
and I want to.
I want to come back, once youget through that, to the impacts
of COVID for a second.
But, yeah, keep going.
Carrie Fabris (29:46):
Yeah, and then, lastly, the C is courage, and
it's doing hard things withgrace, like you said, and
compassion, and it's rolemodeling, the way it's creating
stability and hope and trustwith your team.
It's being the person otherswant to follow as being able to
have respectful, hardconversations and also be able
(30:07):
to motivate people and encouragepeople along the way.
Um, courage is is such avaluable character trait for
leaders and just being acourageous leader, those are the
people that others want tofollow.
So bringing magic to the teamas a leader is being mindful of
(30:29):
your mindset, drivingaccountability, being generous
with your time and your energy.
As long as someone doesn't takeadvantage of it, you still have
to protect your ROE, beingintentional and having that
courage.
Michael Hartmann (30:41):
Yeah, yeah, and this is all worked together
so well.
I mean, I'm just like all thesethings like cause you could,
with the generosity, be takenadvantage of, which requires
courage to have the toughconversation right.
That says hey, I think you'retaking advantage of me, maybe
courage to have the toughconversation right.
That says, hey, I think you'retaking advantage of me, maybe
not that explicitly right, but Ithink that's it's really.
(31:02):
It's a fascinating sort of wayof thinking about it.
I love how they all playtogether.
Okay, so go ahead, go ahead.
Carrie Fabris (31:08):
Oh, I was just going to say.
I know we're talking.
We've been talking a lot aboutleadership Like this is also
applicable for individuals too,because leadership is simply
influence.
It's not a title on a piece ofpaper, on a work chart with
direct reports, it is simplyinfluence, and so, as long as
you're influencing people aroundyou, that is leadership, and so
(31:38):
you can bring your own magic tothe team using the same
framework regardless if you havedirect reports or in a
leadership role or not.
Michael Hartmann (31:41):
No, I point that out, I totally agree with
that, and I was going to get tothat too, because I know, early
in my career I didn't alwaysfeel like I was a leader.
Um, some of that was justconfidence and things like that.
But also, just to think, Ihappen to work in places that
very kind of very hierarchical,um, some more formal and some
(32:01):
more informal, but I think it'sit's.
You know, one of the thingsI've tried to do when I have
been in sort of the you know,manager roles is to try to
provide an environment wherepeople can be leaders as well,
right?
So, whether that's helping themto learn new skills, putting
them in positions to test theircourage, right.
So just tell you things thatare hard, that they may not be
(32:24):
comfortable doing, but it willbe beneficial for them in the
long run.
So I'm totally with you on that.
So, all of our listeners outthere, just make sure that if
you're taking notes, take noteswhether you're a people leader
or not.
100%, 100% Okay.
So I'm curious, just yeah, causehe brought up COVID, one of the
(32:46):
things that I thought the whole, like all the lockdowns and
work remote and all that had.
Was it really exposed some ofthat?
Like, we are all human, human,right, we all have emotions, we
all have shit going on behind us, you know, whether we we bring
it to work or not, and I think Ithink that's actually gonna, in
the long run, going to be avery good thing, right, because
(33:07):
I think then, as a leader, youcan, it gives you the I don't
think a lot of leaders felt likethey could think about that
with their team.
Right, it had to be a business,so there's this box that you
could work in, and the same forthe people coming to work, right
, you know they feel like, oh mymy home life stuff, right, is
is my kitchen's, not my officeyeah, I can't, I can't bring
(33:29):
that in, or my kids are, youknow, going off the rails or
whatever.
Um, or you get more extreme,like we just had a miscarriage
and I don't want to tell anybodyabout it, like things like that
that are like, uh, it feelslike some of that got brought
out into the open, which I thinkultimately could it could be a
good thing.
Um, I do think for a lot ofpeople it was a little harder to
(33:50):
make those connections right.
I, I'm with you, right, I thinkit's a bit of an excuse.
I think you know how tools canenable that and you have to put
in a little extra effort.
Yeah, the downside I've seen andI'm continuing to see is like
it's really hard for some peopleto separate, right Cause.
So, like, yeah, you can see mybackground, right, I'm in the
middle of my house, that's whereI have my virtual studio, and
(34:11):
it's like you know, if I'm uphere I'm working, like I just
keep going until I realize, oh,it's dark out and I hear people
downstairs make dinner, waitingfor dinner.
So, like, are you seeing someof the same things?
Are you seeing that with yourclients?
And like, are they dealing withsome of this stuff and how is
this framework going to helpthem with that?
(34:33):
As far as separating, Wellseparating and I think, as we've
talked a little about, yeah,that separation part I think is
really tough for some people.
Carrie Fabris (34:45):
Yeah, I so.
I am seeing it get better.
It's hard to believe it's beenfive years.
It's crazy.
Yeah, don't know where thatfive years went and I have no
concept of time.
I just is it before COVID orafter COVID, bc or AC?
More people are back in theoffice.
(35:07):
That continues to increasecompany by company.
It's definitely seen that withmy clients as more people are
coming back to the office at aminimum, you know, three days a
week.
There's definitely a discipline.
There's an intentionaldiscipline between separating
(35:28):
and turning things off.
You know we are 100%responsible for ourselves.
We control what we do, what wesay, what we think, how we feel.
This is a hard concept for somepeople to wrap their brain
around, but no one can make youfeel any way.
You choose to feel that way.
Yeah, if you want moreinformation on how that works,
(35:50):
listen to man's search formeaning by victor frankl and you
will learn you.
You know what I'm saying Michael.
Michael Hartmann (35:58):
So for anybody who does not know this book, it
is maybe this I think I'veheard it's like the second most
read book in the in the worldbehind the Bible so unbelievable
it is incredible.
I didn't read it until a fewyears ago and it blew my mind.
Carrie Fabris (36:12):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's the most incredible book,incredible story around mindset
and how to be in control of howyou feel, and I mean it is a
perfect example of being ahundred percent responsible for
you.
Michael Hartmann (36:31):
Yeah.
Carrie Fabris (36:32):
And so we all have a choice.
And so, if, if, if someone'sstruggling with working at home,
be proactive, do something tochange the environment at home.
You know, if you, if thekitchen table is your office,
okay, well, is there.
A same way, you could add acertain move your kitchen table
(36:53):
somewhere, put a blind you knowone of those little stackable
blind things around it toseparate it.
Could you change?
You know, instead of it beingthe table, can you move to a
different part of the of yourapartment, of your house,
something like it is?
There's a discipline and anintention between making sure
you have the right environment,because, again back to ROE yeah,
are you?
(37:14):
Is your energy up?
Are you having a good return onyour energy based on the
environment you're in?
Yeah, and at home, you controlthat environment, usually now,
if you have roommates.
There's a discussion that needsto happen.
If you're living at home withparents, get, have a
conversation.
But you still are in control ofcreating that environment for
(37:35):
you and so I think that'sinteresting.
Michael Hartmann (37:37):
I I have a.
I have a relative,brother-in-law who is a longtime
police officer and I wastalking to him a couple of years
ago and I asked him like how doyou because I know that it's
really hard for police officersgoing in and out of the stuff
that they see every day- oh, I'msure Like not bring it home.
And I said, how do you managethat?
(37:58):
It was really interesting to methat he, he, he said the thing
that happens and the rest of thelike my wife and the girls know
, like when I put on the uniform, right, I'm now in work mode,
right, and don't like, yes, I'mjust that I'm in, like me, work
mode, and then when I come home,first thing I do change clothes
and and then sometimes take afew minutes to to sort of to get
(38:26):
ready.
And it's like it was interestingto me because I've always been
like.
I grew up in a time where, youknow, suit and tie was the norm,
and so for me, even when Istarted working remotely, or
even when places got to becasual or business casual, I
still like for me, if I don'tget up, take a shower, shave,
get dressed like I'm working Aroutine, yeah, yeah, it's, it's,
(38:49):
it's, I think that's so.
Are those kinds of thingshelpful, you think?
Carrie Fabris (38:53):
They are helpful Absolutely.
I mean, if you're going to bein pajamas, you know.
And again on camera we see fromhere up right Pajamas on the
bottom and again on camera.
We see from here up rightPajamas on the bottom but button
shirt on the top.
You know it, there is somepsychological thing that makes
an impact, um, you know, myhusband and I, whenever he works
(39:14):
from home too, so whenever wehave a good presentation, we
stand like I'm standing rightnow, um, because you just it's,
it's physical, it's a powerfulposition to be in.
So it's changing thatphysiology, changing what you're
focused on, change yourlanguage, it's changing the
state that you're in, andclothes is part of it.
So I'm so glad you said that,because I was going to give a
similar example of when you knowif you're with someone or
(39:35):
you're just like, and it doesn'tfeel good when you leave that
person, change clothes, dosomething to almost like shed
off what you had in thatsituation, take a shower, rinse
all that stuff off, like.
Those things matter.
And it's also sometimes good toum, every morning I'll just
write in a journal and it isstream of consciousness and I
(39:57):
don't reread it because itprobably would not make a lot of
sense, and it is just clearingmy head.
Michael Hartmann (40:03):
I've tried multiple times to do a journal.
It is not for me and so like,but yeah.
Carrie Fabris (40:09):
I was just recently given and some of your
listeners probably have thisbook If they're creatives.
It's called the artist's way,and she talks about writing.
We talked about running morningpages and someone just gave me
this book recently and I took itas okay.
There's some reason.
This book was put into my handsand so that's what I started
doing, which is the morningpages of just writing through
the consciousness and I don'tknow what it means and what it
says and don't read it again,and so there are just ways to
(40:31):
get us mentally in a betterplace, but it definitely takes
discipline, some structure,routine, and even if you're
someone you're like Carrie, Idon't like structure.
Michael Hartmann (40:57):
I, and even if you're someone, you're like
Carrie.
I don't like structure, I liketo be spontaneous, fly by the
spontaneous.
So I think about and I don'tknow if this is true.
I think it's a Steve Jobs story, right, where Steve Jobs
basically wore the same thingevery day yes, black turtleneck.
And I've heard of others too,where it's like part of why they
do that is that they're notusing energy to think about what
(41:18):
am I going to wear today.
Right, so they're using thatenergy towards other stuff.
Carrie Fabris (41:21):
And I think, yes, so it eliminates he had only so
much cognitive space and hedidn't want it.
That's exactly right.
Yeah, I love that story.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's sochanneling my Steve jobs today
with my black tops.
Michael Hartmann (41:34):
Oh well, I can't I did put some energy.
Well, good, I'm glad weappreciate that.
So one of the things that Ithink some of our listeners will
go to will maybe be thinking inthe back of their minds is okay
, this is all really interestingand great, but those are like
soft skills, right?
Yes, term is just in general,like I think it undermines it,
(42:00):
but, um, cause, I think a lot ofskills can be, can be learned,
even if they're not.
Quote hard skills, right.
What, what, what do you?
Carrie Fabris (42:14):
what's your take on all that?
Yeah, I I definitely think thatreferring to the stuff I'm
talking to as soft skills candiminish the importance and the
impact in professional andpersonal success.
And really, in reality, theseskills are like communication,
emotional intelligence,adaptability, leadership, et
cetera.
They're really anything butsoft.
They are essential and they arelearnable and they're
(42:35):
measurable competencies that aregoing to help us with
collaboration and decisionmaking, et cetera, and the idea
that these skills are likepurely innate is kind of a
common misconception, I think.
So some individuals may have anatural inclination towards
certain interpersonal abilitiesright, and research has shown
that with intentional practice,coaching, feedback, we can all
(42:58):
significantly improve in theseareas of, again, communication,
active listening, conflictresolution I like to talk about
having constructive conflict andpeople are like wait what Well,
I'm a big fan of maybe you'veheard of it crucial
confrontations.
Crucial confrontations.
I think we talked about thatthe first time we spoke.
Michael Hartmann (43:17):
Yeah, I tell people all the time, one of the
reasons I love it I've evenrecommended it to my kids
because I think it's a life,it's a, it's a tool, it's a
framework that can help you inbusiness and in personal life,
and all over.
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (43:29):
Yes, so, yeah.
So, just as we invest time indeveloping technical skills okay
With taking a class to getbetter on coding or, you know,
technology, innovation, whateverwe can develop these soft
skills, or let's just call themhuman skills.
Okay.
So I think human skills mightsound- how about just call them
skills?
They're just skills, necessaryskills, and we can do that,
(43:51):
again, through intention andtraining and coaching and just
real world application andawareness and practice.
And I think the more you know,more we do that, the better,
because more research is comingout that EQ is a higher
indication of success at workthan IQ, and you know it's, it's
.
It's important and again,especially as the workforce gets
(44:13):
younger, the younger folks Idon't want to call them kids,
but younger, younger people arecaring about human skills more
than the Gen Xers, the Boomers,those generations, the
Millennials, the Gen Zs, the GenY, I don't even know what
generation we're on now, butthose generations are bringing
(44:37):
this amazing, refreshing look onhuman skills.
And that's also why there wasthe mass exodus during COVID.
The whole people leaving it wasbecause the world is coming to
an end.
Why am I giving all my energyto a company that doesn't see me
, hear me, appreciate me?
And that's where a lot ofpeople left their jobs.
(44:59):
That's interesting, yeah, so thehuman skills are crucial to
success and organizationalhealth.
Michael Hartmann (45:04):
Yeah Well, and I think I like I will just
reiterate I believe, I trulybelieve that those skills can be
learned.
You can get better at you.
May not be 100%, you may not bethe most eloquent gifted public
speaker, but you can get betterat it, right.
Carrie Fabris (45:18):
Well, and again, sorry to like if it sounds harsh
I'm I'm a little bit of a toughlove coach.
It's an excuse, yeah, it's anexcuse, and it is also tied to
our energy.
Okay, so it's all connected.
It is an excuse to not.
I can't do that.
Well, I can't, or you won't.
(45:40):
Very different you can try.
Yeah, If you won't do somethingand it makes me uncomfortable,
it's a drain again, not a goodROE.
They don't do it.
At least explore that wholething versus just going.
Oh, that's not me.
I could never learn that youcan, you won't because it is a
(46:00):
low ROE and that's okay.
But let's just call it what itis.
Michael Hartmann (46:04):
Yeah, it reminds me of one of my all-time
favorite quotes, which I do nothave memorized, but it's the
you can look it up.
The Theodore Roosevelt man inthe arena quote.
Are you familiar with that?
Essentially, it's like at theend, it's like if you don't try,
you won't win or lose.
(46:25):
Right, if you try you may lose,but at least you'll have tried
and you can.
You know it's like.
So I don't want to get to theend of, you know, my life and go
.
I wish I had done Totally.
Carrie Fabris (46:36):
I wish.
Michael Hartmann (46:37):
I had not, and so, like I think there's
something to be said for like,look, it's a hard thing to do,
Do the hard thing.
Carrie Fabris (46:43):
Well, and here's the thing.
So can I touch on failure for asecond Speaking?
Michael Hartmann (46:48):
of doing hard things.
Let's do that.
Yeah.
Well, I think it'll be goodbecause I think this is a.
It's been a tough couple ofyears for people in this space
right, with lots of layoffs andpeople on job loss and try to
figure out what to do.
So, yes, absolutely.
I wouldn't even call thatfailure, but just the difficult
situation, right.
Yeah, so, so so many people saythey have a fear of failure.
Carrie Fabris (47:16):
In my experience personally and as a coach for
for the last decade, it's notthat, it's something deeper.
When we immediately go to, oh,I have a fear of X, that's going
to be surface level.
There is some other root causethat's a little deeper than that
.
But with failure we have tofail.
(47:38):
Failure is simply learning.
It is simply learning.
It is here to teach us anincredible lesson that we're
supposed to get from thatfailure.
And if we have a fear of failureand we just hang our hat on
that, we're essentially sayingwe're afraid to grow, we're
afraid to grow, we're afraid tolearn.
(47:58):
And again, don't mean not tosound harsh, it's just that
that's just how that lands andthis is where the magic happens.
Speaking of magic, the magichappens outside of our comfort
zone.
We've probably all seen thatvisual right, like here's a
little circle, the arrow pointsover here and like this is where
all the magic happens and it'sout of our comfort zone.
(48:18):
And so when we fail, if we lookat failure as a teacher, we
look at fear as a teacher aswell.
Fear gets louder the longer weavoid doing something.
Michael Hartmann (48:32):
Yes.
Carrie Fabris (48:32):
And it gets louder because it's trying to
get our attention.
It's like I'm actually notgoing to go away.
I'm going to get more annoyinguntil you do this thing.
And the minute you do thatthing, fear goes away.
Michael Hartmann (48:44):
Well, I think we often tell ourselves a story
about how awful that is going tobe, totally Sometimes it is but
in most cases in my experience,it's never near as bad as you
think it's going to be.
Carrie Fabris (48:55):
A lot of times, most times when you leap, the
net will appear Some net,whatever the net is meant to be
for you.
But a net is going to appearand this is where resilience is
really important.
I'm just helping us pickourselves back up trust that
we're exactly where we'resupposed to be.
We're going to be okay.
Sometimes we're going to befreaking awesome.
(49:17):
Sometimes we're going to bewe're just going to have to sit
in the suck for a minute.
But there is a lesson that allof us can learn in all of those
facets of life, and so fear offailure.
I have fun with people who tellme that I'm like okay, I come
here, let me, let me help you,let me help you understand that
(49:39):
failure is is actually doingsomething for you, not against
you.
So I just wanted to share that,yeah.
Michael Hartmann (49:46):
No, I think it's good.
I mean, I think, whether it'sMan's Search for Meaning or A
Brave New World, right, thisidea they've kind of
diametrically opposed, actually,I guess and like, but the idea
like, oh, we would all behappier if we didn't have
challenges or failures in ourlives is really false.
Like we just it would.
It's not human nature.
Carrie Fabris (50:06):
It'd be bored out of mind.
It'd be bored, and boredom isworse than failure?
Michael Hartmann (50:10):
Yeah, I mean, I think it would be, and so I
think, um, there's like a lessonlearned from this is just like,
yeah, that resilience, uh,realizing that whatever your
stuff you're dealing with, youcan overcome, it is something
that's a good lesson to learn.
Carrie Fabris (50:27):
It doesn't mean it's going to be easy.
Michael Hartmann (50:28):
It doesn't mean it's not going to come with
more punches to the face.
Carrie Fabris (50:31):
Again, pain is the path to joy with almost
everything, and so it's thecourage to go through the pain.
Don't push it off, because it'sjust going to get louder Again.
We push off stuff that comes inacross our path.
It gets louder and heavier,yeah.
If we find the courage, find thesupport system.
Not coping right, that'sdifferent.
(50:51):
Finding support system to gothrough whatever that pain is,
you will get, all of us will getto the other side and get to
the joy, and then we'll lookback at all the things we
learned along the way.
Michael Hartmann (51:04):
Yes, yes.
Well, you can't have onewithout the other.
So that's right.
That's right.
It feels like it's a greatplace to stop Carrie.
So much fun talking about this.
I love this stuff and I thinkthis is a great will be really
helpful for everybody who'slistening and watching this.
So if folks want to learn moreabout you or what you're talking
about and that kind of stuff,what's the best way for them to
(51:26):
do that?
Carrie Fabris (51:27):
Yeah, so they can go to my website,
kerryfabricecom.
I've got everything on therethat I do.
I am in the process of startingto record a bunch of little
video snippets, a video seriesthat I'm going to post on
LinkedIn.
It's all around ROE and settingit up with how do you find your
ROE with insert topic.
So I'm going to just startdoing this and having fun so you
(51:49):
can connect with me on LinkedIn.
If you connect with me onLinkedIn, please tell me that
you heard me here.
So I'm like who is this person?
Cause I don't accept all um,all invitations, cause I'm like
I don't know who this person is.
But if you tell me you know youheard me on the podcast, then I
certainly will want to inviteyou into my community and let
(52:10):
you look around on my littlevideos.
But thank you for having me.
I definitely had an amazing ROEpersonally.
Michael Hartmann (52:14):
Oh good, so did I, so did I.
So it was really fun Even onthis cloudy gray day, here in
Dallas Exactly.
Carrie Fabris (52:21):
It's where, just to bring everything up, despite
the clouds and the 26 degreeweather that's on its way here
again.
Michael Hartmann (52:26):
Yes, I'm looking forward to covering
plants here in a few hours.
Carrie Fabris (52:32):
I gave up.
Michael Hartmann (52:32):
I just gave up .
Yeah Well, carrie.
Again, thank you so much.
Thank you Thanks to all of ourlisteners out there for
continuing to support us, asalways.
If you have ideas for guests ortopics or want to be a guest,
reach out to Naomi, mike or meand we'll be happy to talk to
you about it.
Till next time, bye, everybody.
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