July 7, 2025 • 44 mins
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On today's episode, we are joined by Janelle Amos, founder and chief strategist at Elevate Growth, to explore how demand generation and marketing/revenue operations teams can thrive through better collaboration, mutual understanding, and strategic alignment. With a rich background in revenue marketing, advising, and podcasting, Janelle brings powerful perspective and practical tips on fostering cross-functional trust, communication, and shared success.
Tune in to hear:
- How top marketing ops teams stand out by aligning tactical work with broader business goals and communicating their value effectively.
- The power of curiosity and shadowing—why simply asking questions and observing other teams can drastically improve cross-functional rapport.
- Why trust is essential and how "disagree and commit" can move collaboration forward even when there’s tension or differing opinions.
- Tips for building productive relationships, including when to use an internal advocate and how to handle difficult conversations with empathy and clarity.
- How leadership perception and initiative shape success, especially for newer hires aiming to establish credibility and connection.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Hartmann (00:01):
Hello everyone , Welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
the MoPros out there.
I'm your host, Michael Hartman,flying solo today, so we'll get
Naomi or Mike back soon, I'msure.
Joining me today to talk abouthow demand generation and
marketing slash revenue opsteams can work together better
is Janelle Amos.
Janelle is founder and chiefstrategist of Elevate Growth,
(00:23):
her marketing and demand genagency.
Prior to founding ElevateGrowth, Janelle held several
leadership positions in demandgeneration, revenue marketing,
digital marketing and generalmarketing.
In addition, she is an advisor,podcast host and speaker.
So, Janelle, thanks for joiningme today.
Janelle Amos (00:39):
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to dive in.
Michael Hartmann (00:42):
Yeah, this is going to be fun and so we could
tell like we are covering bothDallas and the Fort Worth areas,
right, or sort of.
Janelle Amos (00:49):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (00:50):
Yeah, so we've got Texas.
Texas is raining today.
Texas represent.
That's right.
All right, as long as you'renot a you're not a TCU person,
are you?
Janelle Amos (01:01):
Well, my best friend is, so I kind of have to
be, but a TCU person are youWell, my best friend is, so I
kind of have to be.
But personally, Okay, BecauseI'm an SMU guy and that's like
it's hard for me to deal.
Michael Hartmann (01:14):
We got no beef , that's right, all right.
So you've spent most of yourcareer in demand generation and
you've worked with multiplemarketing operations teams, and
I think that's really why wewant to talk today.
But so let's just dive rightinto it.
Like what, from yourperspective, distinguishes the
best Mops teams that you'veworked with and maybe the other
side right, what are the?
(01:34):
You know, what are some of thethings that you think you've
learned over the years thatdemand generation folks could
learn about how to work bestwith marketing ops and more tech
teams?
Janelle Amos (01:48):
Yeah, I'll take your first question first, in
terms of how I found the bestmarketing operations teams and
from my experience it's beenthose that can somehow connect
the day-to-day tactics to thebusiness goal.
And so, instead of just keepingthe tunnel vision and kind of
the blinders on and poweringthrough because there's so much
(02:11):
work to be done on an operationside of things, the list is
never empty, but it's alwaysimportant to communicate and
advocate how it impacts whateverybody else is doing in the
organization, because it does.
In my opinion, it's thebackbone of how companies
operate, either successfully ordetrimentally, and not a whole
(02:39):
lot of positions fullycomprehend that implication.
And so the best marketingoperation folks who can
communicate that, in my opinion,really set them apart from the
rest.
Michael Hartmann (02:50):
Gotcha.
So when you say communicatingthat, are you talking about what
they're doing, how they'resupporting the teams?
Is it just that they showunderstanding of the way the
business works?
Janelle Amos (03:04):
It's understanding of how the business works and
the implications for it.
So a great example would bedata.
If you have bad data, thecompany cannot operate.
The implications are marketingcan't send emails.
The implications are you can'tsegment lists.
The implications are yourreporting is going to be crap.
The implications are when theexecutive team has the
conversations with the board andthey're asking great, what
(03:26):
levers are you going to beinvesting in for the next
quarter?
If you're reliant on data andyour data's off and you go back
that next quarter and you comeback and you say, just kidding,
our data was wrong, we wasted anentire quarter.
The implications are big andoperations teams need to
communicate that and advocatefor the work and say I need
(03:49):
throwing this number out there$30,000, $60,000 for support to
clean up our data, here's whyand connect it to who they're
communicating the business casewith.
Michael Hartmann (03:59):
Right.
Yeah, it's interesting becauseI think data is one of those
ones especially let's set asidelike reporting, analytics, like
almost backward looking stuff,but like just in the day to day,
like I always think about this,like the value of data is.
Well, the danger of not havinggood data is just a simple thing
, like, hey, we want to targetour best customers, right.
(04:22):
However, you want to definethat If you can't do that easily
, because the data is a mess andupstream processes or whatever
that's like, it makes it reallyhard to be effective at doing
anything and it slows everythingdown and then, over time, if
you don't address it right,degrades trust in the data,
degrades trust in the team, andthat's not where you want to be
(04:42):
right.
Janelle Amos (04:43):
That's a costly implication.
Turnover, replacement,retention of employees I mean
those you know those add up.
Michael Hartmann (04:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So if you were, if you weretalking to other demand gen
professionals, like how wouldbecause I do think, if I
suspected, like if I wasimagining what some of our
listeners might be imaginingright, Like oh, yeah, yeah, I
get it, it's all on us to gofigure out understand the
business.
They don't understand what wedo either.
How would you help demand genfolks who maybe actually don't
(05:17):
understand how their mops teamscan be leveraged to do that
better?
Janelle Amos (05:22):
Ask.
Michael Hartmann (05:22):
That's the number one thing that I've
always one tried to be in myrole and to try to encourage
others to be is curious yeah, Ilove that, I agree, like I'm a
big fan of that too, like I, andI think it hit me a couple of
different ways in my career.
One was like a weird one, whichwas when I was early in my
(05:45):
career in marketing and I was ata big company and they were
doing there.
I happened to come in a weekwhere they were doing one of
these customer panels wherethere's a someone who's
facilitating a conversation witha bunch of customers or
potential customers, and then wewere back behind the I can't
remember, is it one way glass,twoway mirror, whatever and I
was like I was like wanting toscream.
(06:07):
I'm like, what are these peopledoing?
And it made me realize like, oh, I need to actually be more
curious and listen, so fromcustomers.
That's one, and then the otheris working with different people
, both being curious.
But one of the things I gotbenefit from and it was sort of
forced at one company differentcompany in this case where
everyone was required, and I waslike they got rid of this too
(06:30):
and I was like why had to gospend like half, half a day
every like twice a year withsomeone in another department?
It didn't even have to be oneyou worked with normally, so,
like in this case, big eventcompany.
So, like the people whoactually did production on our
events, right, I spent time andit was really really helpful to
(06:50):
understand how the rest of thecompany worked and not make
assumptions, and I alwaysenjoyed it when people were like
sit in shadow with me too.
Have you ever done anythinglike that?
Yeah, Beyond just askingquestions.
Janelle Amos (07:05):
Yeah, and I actually recommend it too.
Did you ever?
Have you ever done anythinglike that Beyond just asking
questions?
Yeah, and I actually recommendit too.
You know, just if you're a newhire at a company, go and sit
with other people on your team,cross departments, see if you
can shadow some of theexecutives, depending on your
role, and just learn, be asponge, and then the insights
that you can take from thosewill be able to mold how you can
(07:26):
be more successful.
You'll get insights like how tocommunicate with individuals,
what it actually takes to makesomething come to life, how long
it takes in a process or whatspecific bottlenecks there are,
and maybe you could find somequick wins.
Maybe you could find someempathy for how long it takes
some teams.
A lot of learnings can comefrom it, but you've got to take
(07:47):
the first initiative and just becurious.
Michael Hartmann (07:51):
Heavy.
Do you recommend?
Would you recommend to ourlisteners who are marketing
folks to try to do that Not onlydo that with people internally,
but also maybe be able to sitin on like customer calls or
prospect calls?
Janelle Amos (08:02):
I will say, if you ever get a chance to, yes.
A lot of companies that I havefound they like to gatekeep who
are on those calls.
Sure, so it might not always bepossible, but if the
opportunity is there, certainlythere's so much you can learn
from their front lines.
If not, then ask if the callcan be recorded, see if you can
(08:22):
get the cliff notes from ChatGPTand just learn.
I think a lot of insights cancome from just the recording.
Of course it's not going to bethe best if you're not in the
room asking questions, likereading the emotions and behind
it, but if you can take one stepforward, then certainly you've
got to learn on all differentdepartments and avenues and
(08:44):
especially your customers.
Michael Hartmann (08:46):
Yeah, I mean the way I think about that one
in particular, why, I asked, isit kind of goes back to that
example of being behind thetwo-way glass or two-way mirror,
right?
Or was it like?
Part of what was frustrating tome is I felt like they weren't
using the right language.
But then I realized in themiddle of it, like actually
we're not using the rightlanguage because if we're not
(09:07):
matching what they're saying ordoing, how they think about
these, and that's actually on us, not on them.
So, and then that made mebetter.
At the time I was doing a lotof like search marketing stuff
too.
So when I was working with ourproduct marketing teams um, I
was, I was better consultativelywith them on like how to, how
(09:35):
to improve the results of whatwe were doing, right, so having
that customer languageunderstanding, so I can imagine
if you're doing a full campaign,right, content's going to be
important.
Yeah, and I always say you know, just because I'm a marketer
and we're doing a full campaignright.
Janelle Amos (09:45):
Content's going to be important, yeah, and I
always say, you know, justbecause I'm a marketer and we're
talking to other marketers, youknow, marketing one-on-one is
tailor your message to youraudience, and that's the same
thing when it comes toadvocating or communicating
internally as well as who areyou talking to, what are they
gold on, and how can we worktogether to be successful?
Michael Hartmann (10:04):
What are they gold on and how can we work
together to be successful?
So when you, like you said,like one of the things to do is
be like, maybe be the one thatasks the first to try to connect
the dots with these other teamsand maybe sit with them, like,
how do you have any advice?
Like there's going to be somepeople who are totally
(10:24):
comfortable with that right noproblem asking and others who
maybe will feel like, oh, Idon't want to bother these
people or I'm uncomfortable withthat.
Like how, any suggestions forhow to just approach that kind
of conversation?
Janelle Amos (10:38):
Yeah, I think in any role to really be fulfilled
you have to have one personwho's willing to be your
advocate.
So if you don't feel comfortablegoing to another department or
even somebody else who might bemore senior to you, I would find
your advocate and help them beyour champion.
So a great example would be ifboth demand gen and marketing
operations report to the CMO,then if you're intimidated to
(11:03):
talk directly to the operationsperson but you're best friends
with the CMO and you guys have agreat working relationship, I
would advocate to the CMO andask I want to be curious, I want
to learn more about how topartner better with the
operations team.
Could you help facilitate moreopen conversations between maybe
(11:25):
the entire team, between me andthe operations person?
This is what I'm hoping to getout of it.
Let me know how I can bestsupport.
And then you get into the roomright and then afterwards you
can do a debrief with the cmoand you can ask what did I do
well, what did I do bad, wherecan I improve?
And you can take those keylearnings as well as your.
You know, know, I say firstparty feedback from meeting
(11:47):
directly with the operationsperson and learn for the next
time.
Michael Hartmann (11:51):
So in that case, you're actually asking the
advocate not only to helpbroker the discussion, but
actually be in the room virtualroom, whatever as a part of that
, to help facilitate thatcommunication too.
Is that what you're saying?
Janelle Amos (12:04):
Maybe it would depend on the situation, right?
So if you would feel mostcomfortable in having that
person in the room, then I don'tsee any harm, as long as they
understand that their role is tofacilitate.
If you just need theintroduction to get into the
same room, then you can say cool, I got it from here, Thanks.
Michael Hartmann (12:20):
It just all depends on the comfort level,
you know seniority level of theindividual and kind of what
support they would need in thataspect.
I think that's, that's a goodidea.
I it's not somewhat obvious nowthat I think about it, but I
hadn't actually thought of thatas a as a tactic and probably
because I'm comfortable.
I'd be comfortable going andasking directly, right.
Janelle Amos (12:40):
So it's like um that's a good question, Cause
not everybody is comfortable,you know so yeah.
Michael Hartmann (12:47):
So, um, let's say that you get that meeting
scheduled like, like, how, howhave you seen it work well or
not work well, when you like?
Let's assume that's like thebeginning of some sort of
connection, hopefully.
Um, like, how would you like,how would you approach or how
have you approached structuringthose, keeping them going?
Janelle Amos (13:12):
Yeah, great question.
I would recommend those to berecurring, so whether, depending
on your company culture, weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, but you
need to have something on thecalendar going forward.
The objective initially will beto understand let's understand
what your goal is, let'sunderstand what keeps you up at
night, let's understand how Ican best help.
And then thereafter we canstart working on mutually
(13:35):
crafting strategies and planstogether to achieve what we both
want from outcomes.
And then thereafter, on ourrecurring meetings, we talk
about how we're pacing towardsthose, anything else that we're
facing externally, any otherbottlenecks now that we've
implemented some of those.
But on both parties have toremain curious and open and
(13:57):
sometimes things don't always gothe right way.
The two of them could have ahypothesis put it in market and
it flop.
That doesn't mean that you'reboth bad, that's marketing right
.
So in that next call, it's notyou did this wrong, you did that
wrong.
You know dah, dah, dah, dah,dah.
It's.
Listen, this flop to.
What are we going to do betternext time?
And then you objectively havethat conversation.
Michael Hartmann (14:18):
Yeah, it's like looking for lessons learned
.
So, um, what I've had similarthings to that and one of the
things that I've struggled with,I think, over, especially over
time the longer it goes is justkind of keeping track of all the
different things we've talkedabout and having like tracking
(14:39):
of that, making sure we're doingit.
So, um, I know there's probablya lot of people would sort of
gravitate right to some sort ofproject management system for
that.
I tend to like spreadsheetsjust easier for tracking that
kind of stuff.
Do you, do you have apreference for like how you
track those things?
Janelle Amos (14:58):
I know it's pretty tactical, but I'm gonna
apologize because I thinksomebody just knocked on my door
and if you guys can hear my dogin the background, is it too
noisy?
Michael Hartmann (15:06):
It's real life .
Janelle Amos (15:07):
It's real life.
Okay, here we are.
We're authentic In terms of howto best track that, I would say
.
Do whatever the culture of thecompany is, if it is acceptable
in a spreadsheet, if it's in adashboard okay.
Michael Hartmann (15:28):
So one of the things challenges I have with,
uh, these ongoing conversationslike that is just tracking what
we've talked about action items,all that kind of stuff and I
tend to use spreadsheets and alot of people probably would um
think about using a projectmanagement system.
To me it seems like a littleoverkill, but just very tactical
question.
But like, do you have apreference for how you do that
(15:49):
or what do you?
What do you like to do?
You have a preference for howyou do that, or what do you?
What do you?
Janelle Amos (15:51):
like to do.
Yeah, normally a working Googledoc.
You know that you can set themeeting agenda, you can scribble
on some notes and then everyweek it's one live working doc
that we can keep track ofconversations, you know next
steps, et cetera.
Michael Hartmann (16:06):
Yeah, like I mean, I like having a standard
agenda too, so I just it's, it'salways good Um.
One of the things when you andI talked before that you
mentioned that I really want youmentioned um.
In these relationships,sometimes it's good to.
I think the word you use washero, like be a hero for the
(16:27):
other person or the team in someways.
Can you go a little deeper onwhat you meant by that?
Janelle Amos (16:34):
Well, us, as humans, we're very defensive,
and when somebody is I don'tknow what you're talking about.
When somebody starts poking alittle bit in a way, I don't
know where, you're insecure, oryou know, you have some you know
past drama, things start to,you know, your hair start to
spike up a little bit more thanjust an average hey, how are you
(16:56):
doing Coffee talk?
And so what I would recommendothers is, if you're put in a
position to have anuncomfortable or a hard
conversation, would be to frameyourself in a way to be the hero
and not necessarily or, excuseme like even make them the hero
and have you be the sidekick,because you're not trying to
(17:18):
take the credit, you're nottrying to one-up, you're not
trying to show that you'rebetter than them.
At least I would hope not, butat the end of the day, we both
have to get over this hurdletogether.
So let's objectivelycommunicate the elephant in the
room, you know.
Let's eliminate all thefeelsies of I feel like, or you
know, you know all the, all thesensory words and really just
(17:41):
get back to the facts of.
You know, I've observed X, yand Z has happened.
I would like to have X, y and Zbe a result.
Michael Hartmann (17:49):
You know how can we have a conversation to
mutually get us there?
Yeah, I probably shared thisbefore on other episodes, but
I'm a big fan of there's twobooks, similar titles, one's
called Crucial Conversations,one's called Crucial
Confrontations, and they kind ofprovide frameworks for those
(18:11):
kinds of difficult conversationsthat you were mentioning.
I mean, I know that one of thethings I try to do if I'm
dealing with someone where, likemaybe that I've reached out,
started this meeting, it's stilllike a resistance kind of thing
, like they're not totallybought into it is it's almost
like a negotiation ploy, likewould you be willing to try this
right, like get them to say yesto one thing, even if it's a
(18:34):
small step right where they'veotherwise been resistant?
Have you ever like, have youever run into that where you've
had, like really someone who's achallenge to like to get them
to to work together on something, and have you worked through it
like that?
Janelle Amos (18:47):
yes and no.
No, yes, certainly facedindividuals who you know, when
you ask an open question such aswould you be willing to do this
?
No, like entirely unworkable.
But in that situation this goesback to having an advocate, you
know, or having been in a rolewhere you can then say, you know
(19:09):
, disagree and commit, likewe've got to do something.
We can't sit here and iterateforever, so let's disagree and
commit.
If we're not on the same pageand that keeps the go-to-market
motion moving, it doesn't keepin.
You know, they said, we said,who said it's just all right,
cool.
I disagree, like I think weshould go a different way.
(19:32):
But you know we're both here toget a job done.
Disagree and commit.
Michael Hartmann (19:36):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of.
That's not the phrase I've usedin the past.
I I always use the wordconsensus, right, and usually
applies more in a maybe a largergroup than just a one-on-one
kind of thing.
But I always it has the samesentiment.
Right, everyone has their stay.
We make a decision and we allgo support it.
(19:57):
Right, like that's, that's ourjob.
Which then leads to downstream,which is if it works, or like
if it doesn't work.
Right, if you were the one whosaid I was advocating for
alternative X and we went with Yand it didn't work, like it's
all your fault, like you don'tget to go blame people, right,
your job is to then go figureout well, what should we do next
(20:19):
and learn from it.
So there's a little bit ofgrace involved with that.
So when you've done that, yeah,disagree and commit model model
.
How has that played out?
Janelle Amos (20:34):
Good, honestly, because it's gotten us in a room
where we could communicatetrust and if we got to the point
of disagreeing but committing,that's all we needed.
And then the outcome is let'ssee if it works.
And then, if it does or if itdoesn't, right and going into.
(20:55):
If it does, and it's okay, cool, what idea would you like to
try next?
If I agree or disagree, let'scommit, you know.
Then if it doesn't work, thenit's all right, now we learned.
What would you like to try next?
So it's kind of a twofoldeither way and building rapport.
And if you do that enough times, then you have that rapport,
(21:15):
peer-to-peer to where we canhave that open discussion.
Going forward, we'll regroupagain, disagree and come in and
we'll see.
We'll let the data speak foritself.
Michael Hartmann (21:26):
Yeah, I think for those of our listeners who
have not tried something likethis, where it feels like
they're always butting headsright, I think if you can try
something like this disagree andcommit it will become way more
natural.
Right, because it's not easy atfirst, especially if you're the
kind of person who isuncomfortable with conflict,
(21:48):
right?
So cause, sometimes that's whatit feels like.
Cause, you're right, people doget defensive and that's we're
human.
That's probably the defaultstate.
Janelle Amos (21:56):
Yeah, I will say though um, I'm not quite sure
what level your audience isright on, Um, but I feel like
having that mentality is almostessential to break into senior
leadership, executive level.
I mean, I've been in roomswhere executives are yelling at
each other and at the end of theday they walk out and they're
(22:17):
handshaking.
I'm like it's just, it's partof the gig, it's not personal.
Is it uncomfortable in themoment?
Sure, maybe, but it's business.
And I'm not saying it'sbusiness or it's okay to just
yell at other people.
It's not.
But the reality is a trueexecutive team is not going to
agree 100% of the time, and thewhole point is to build a team
(22:38):
that has diverse opinions andexperiences and welcome a
conversation on how we could bedifferent and challenge the
status quo.
That's a team you want to workfor, and so I think at some
point you know to your listenersthat are listening to this is
you have to, at some point, beokay with being in a room like
(22:58):
that if you want to be in thenext level.
That's just part of the job.
It doesn't mean that you haveto be unethical.
It doesn't mean that you haveto be a terrible human being.
That doesn't mean you know thisand that it just means that
it's part of the job, it's notpersonal, and it's an
opportunity for you to shareyour perspective on navigating a
business.
Michael Hartmann (23:19):
Yeah, I mean, it's 100% agree.
I coach people and one of thethings I like coaching kind of
is people who are like coachkind of is people who are like
soon to be or in one of theirearly roles as a people leader.
Because that's one of thelessons I always tell people
like you've got to getcomfortable with uncomfortable
conversations, right, let's bethe.
(23:39):
The one they think about iswith the people who work for
them or report to them.
But it goes all directions.
Right, it was with your boss,with your peers, you know, with
your peers, boss.
Like you've got to getcomfortable with that, otherwise
you're going to get like it'sgoing to be really it's going to
be a terrible experience butyou're going to get plowed over
from those who don't have thatlevel, right, right and I'm with
(24:02):
you like you brought it up acouple of times, so I just want
like so I am totally fine withpassionately fighting for your
position, as long as it doesn'tget personal.
If it gets personal, that'scrossed the line, right?
If it's your idea, like I don'tagree with your idea, it
doesn't make any sense to me.
(24:23):
Okay, if you go to the nextstep and go like you're an idiot
, no, no, you're pushing, likethat's not.
That's when my defensemechanism I know I would go up,
like I would be like okay, nowit's on.
Janelle Amos (24:37):
Yeah, I think if you're in a room where you have
to defend your experience oryour role, then I would say
you're in the wrong room,because I've been fortunate to
have been in rooms where theexecutive team is like I have no
clue what you're talking about,janelle, or no.
I disagree entirely with that.
But I trust you, so prove mewrong and I'm like bet, and then
(24:59):
you go and you build thatrapport.
But there's got to be a levelof trust.
There has to be a level ofmutually wanting to make it work
, and if that's not there, thenI would say you're probably in
the wrong room.
Michael Hartmann (25:13):
yeah, no, I I think you're right.
Like, to me, that trust pieceis really, really important.
And I see, um, I see actuallysee a lot of ops teams put in,
marketing teams in general, likeput on all these gates for like
getting things done Right,particularly like review and
approval processes.
That I to me are often.
(25:34):
When I see that, I often golike there's a trust issue at
this organization, right, it'snot about like, do we trust
people do good work and make youknow and then own the outcomes?
If you don't, then that's whenyou start seeing these things
like you know, four levels ofreview and approval, multiple
iterations of the same thingwith like small tweaks, it's
(25:56):
like, no, that's not the problemyeah, that's a great
perspective yeah, um.
So you know, we've talked alittle bit about like this
process of building kind of agood working relationship and
rapport and all that with a peerand maybe the peers team and
(26:18):
your team.
Does you think it matters thatmuch if it's let's just keep it
to ops and demand generate?
Do you think it matters if it'sdemand gen, who starts it or up
starts it?
Does it like?
Do you think it's worked betterone way or the other?
Janelle Amos (26:32):
I don't think it matters from a role standpoint.
I will say whichever one is thenewest to the org should be the
one that facilitates it.
So the ops has been there forsix months and the demand gen
person is brand new.
My expectation would be thedemand gen person to facilitate
that, because you're stepping incurious, you're stepping in
(26:54):
trying to understand the lay ofthe land.
You're stepping in trying tounderstand where the bodies are
buried.
You're stepping in trying tounderstand strategy.
Right, there's a lot that youshould be learning, and if
connecting with people who arealready in the day-to-day is not
a part of that, my expectationis that that demand gen person
probably won't be successful.
Same thing if the tables wereflipped right.
Michael Hartmann (27:14):
Yeah.
Janelle Amos (27:14):
Demand-gen person was there.
The operations come in.
They should be asking what'sworked, what's not worked, where
the body's buried, whatproblems are you having?
Is it data?
Is it processes?
Is it technology?
What's important for you in thenext 30, 60?
All those things so role-based,not so much Whoever's newer to
the org.
Michael Hartmann (27:41):
That's an interesting one, because I think
I almost have the oppositereaction to that.
I would think the person who'sbeen there longer should take a
little more responsibility forthat.
I see where you're coming fromand maybe it's the nature of
I've.
Could be because I've worked alittle more for, like mid to
large size companies more thansmall companies and, um, I mean
(28:03):
my limited experience with smallcompanies.
Yes, I think I would agree.
Right, the new person is likeshould be jumping in and
building those relationships anda larger company.
The reason I think of that is Ithink about when I've hired
people at large companies, likeI spend, like I hire people
expecting to be able to do thethe details of the job, but I
don't expect them to knownecessarily the organization and
(28:25):
I spend a lot of time just liketeaching them that and like
then it's like part of my job islike facilitating those
connections for those people,and I think of like, think of it
the same way, like the personwho's you know understands the
organization better is the onewho should take that first step
well, it makes sense, it totallymakes sense.
Janelle Amos (28:44):
And you know here, disagree to commit right?
Um, I don't necessarily agreewith that.
And here's why, if we flip itfrom an org standpoint and say
you know a CMO is hiring ademand gen person, my
expectation is that the CMOwould then be like okay, here's
you know who you should be doingand connecting and here's your
(29:05):
onboarding and holding your handand those type of things.
But when it comes down to,you're the senior leader.
If I were a CMO stepping into acompany and I don't facilitate
conversations with the team thatI'm inheriting or much like the
rest of the executive team,people are going to be like you
know what are they doing.
So it just comes down, in myopinion, is how you want to be
(29:28):
perceived.
Are you perceived as astrategic leader or are you
perceived as a doer?
If you want to be perceived andmaking an impact at the company,
I think it's mission criticalto be the one facilitating those
conversations and showcasingthat you're capable.
If not, then you're easilygoing to be bucketed, which, in
my opinion, you don't want to beinto.
Their junior right.
(29:50):
We have to handhold their twogreen and if you're not green or
junior, then you know youbetter act like it.
Show them who's boss, yeah.
Michael Hartmann (30:00):
Okay, yeah, no , I think, like, even if you're
not and you don't like, this isthis is the one of those
uncomfortable truths, right?
I think perception is reality,right?
So if you're not doing thingsto change that perception, then
you, the perception is going tobe how you're treated too.
That's kind of what you'resaying, right?
Janelle Amos (30:17):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (30:19):
Yeah, makes sense.
Yeah, fair enough, like, um,yeah, yeah, I don't even know
that there's a right answer.
I think maybe these are noteven two sides of the same coin,
right?
I think both can be true, right, sure, yes, yeah, and I think
maybe that's where it is.
So let's say that kind ofconnection doesn't happen, right
(30:45):
?
What do you think the outcomeis going to be if those, if
those, some like one, one person, one team or another doesn't
like start that, thatinteraction?
Janelle Amos (30:56):
Well, I think there's several implications.
Number one is you will beoperating in silo, which is
detrimental to a go-to-market.
Go-to-market has to havemultiple cross departments
working in unison, and if onedepartment can't even do that,
how are you going to roll thatout across multiple?
Two is the sooner that you canbreak down the initial barrier
between human to human andreally get on somebody's I don't
(31:18):
want to say good side, but likegood working side, you know
where you want to build a teamand do good work and you get
excited about things.
The longer that it takes foryou to get there, the longer
that things start to get inmotion, it's going to be a lot
of friction or it's going to bedelayed timelines, delayed
processes, and it's just goingto constantly feel hard or take
(31:41):
longer than it needs to, and sothe implication, in my opinion,
is detrimental to the business.
Michael Hartmann (31:47):
Sure, yeah, in my opinion is detrimental to
the business.
Sure, that's yeah.
No, the idea like there's goingto be again goes back to your
point about like people getdefensive, right, it's going to,
it's going to lead to thatfriction and frustration and
finger pointing, and then that'snaturally you can get the
reaction and then, yeah, I cansee nothing gets done, right but
(32:07):
I don't feel like we shouldapproach it in a lens of saying
that the other is wrong.
Janelle Amos (32:12):
I mean, we're talking about two totally
different roles you know thereshouldn't be.
You know my way, or the highwayit's, at the end of the day,
demand, gen and ops have to worktogether in unison lockstep.
How we get there?
That's the conversation to behad.
Michael Hartmann (32:34):
I could not.
Yeah, I mean I think there's.
I didn't mean to imply thatthat's not the case.
Right, that shouldn't be thegoal.
I'm just saying like I thinkmaybe it's.
It could be one or either sidecould be resistant to the whole
idea, and that's when, like thenit's going to devolve and
that's not like that.
Yeah, you're right, it's likethen it's detrimental to the
(32:56):
business.
Janelle Amos (32:57):
Yeah, and you know I'm going to call you out.
It's not about you gettingdefensive, it wasn't anything
you said.
You know, it's just theconversation for the podcast and
interpretation for the audienceand listeners.
Michael Hartmann (33:15):
It could go multiple different ways.
Right, it's just my opinion,your opinion, yeah, I well, I
think I think you're you'rehitting on something I've said
too, though, which is likethere's not always, I think,
people get caught up in usingwords like the right way or um,
it's correct, like I, I think Ithink, especially in the lens of
marketing, I mean, so much isto some degree.
Some of it is luck, some of itis you know, you know you're
(33:38):
like you need to know youraudience, in this case really
well to to make the mark.
But it's like, it's still likeI go back to my search marketing
days, right, the, I canprobably go back if I really
wanted to go.
Like I go back to my searchmarketing days right, the, I can
probably go back if I reallywanted to go.
Like I know there, I know thereare cases where I thought, um,
like we were going back andforth debating about one word on
a search ad, for example, right, and they basically had the
(34:00):
same meaning, and like, well,duh, let's just do a test, right
, let's see what happens.
And I think I my the one Ithought would perform better was
right half the time, and halfthe time it wasn't right and
there's.
No, there was no pattern to itreally, other than it just
happened that way, and I thinkthat was again like an
eye-opening thing, like when yougo like like this is I don't
(34:25):
want to discount how importantour work is and like you should
care about your work and beinvested in it, but at the end
of the day, most of the peoplewho are going to be listening to
this, their job is not going toaffect someone's life.
I have a friend who, literally,is a neurosurgeon.
His job it's another level andI think it's easy to lose that
(34:47):
perspective.
So this idea like this is theright way to do it.
It's another level and I thinkit's easy to lose that
perspective about.
So this idea like this is theright way to do it.
Janelle Amos (34:56):
Well, maybe, maybe , there's lots of different
right ways.
Yeah, and I think the bestthing for me and I'll say this
time and time again was turninginto a consultant, because
essentially you're able to havethat conversation objectively
and backtrack to where you makeit somebody else's idea.
So, for example, we're talkingabout your search ad and we want
to say, cool, we want to havethe best performing search ad
(35:20):
that there is.
What are all the differentavenues that we could get there?
Okay, cool, you don't know.
Let me help you map it out.
We could do this, this, this,this, this.
We could have this, we're that,we're this, this, we could have
this word, that word, this word, that word, da, da, da.
And I lean to you and I saywhich one do you want to do?
And you say you know, I don'tknow, um, a, we'll do a and b
for easy.
You say a and I'm like well,you know, we could also consider
(35:40):
b, we can consider c.
Is there a reason why you'renot considering the other ones?
And I would hear you out and Iwas was like you know, we could
also do an AB test and we couldbetter understand, just
objectively, you know, causeit's always good to have
different creatives in market.
And you know it's our firsttime running a campaign to the
audience.
We'll let the data tell us.
Your idea is let's do an ABtest.
(36:01):
Awesome Thumbs up.
Let's move forward.
And it's not who said they saidego, ego.
You know defensiveness,whatever it's, we want to get
the best performing ad.
The best way to do that isstatistically.
Michael Hartmann (36:22):
you know companies who run A B tests for
the first initial da da, da dada, you know.
See results X, y and Z faster.
Yeah, I truly believe that'sthe best way.
I love it.
Let people believe the idea wasthere.
Yeah, these are all like.
So I go back to Brandy.
Sanders was one of our firstguests and many of our listeners
may know who she is, but shesaid something that still sticks
with me now, going well pastfour years, like five years
(36:45):
later, which is she's saying inthe context of for ops people
but I think it's true, probablyof anybody in corporate world is
that you know we should be, youshould learn to play chess and
learn human psychology.
Right Cause, right.
And that human psychology partis what you're talking about.
Right Like how to influencepeople, and it probably sounds
(37:10):
to people like people.
There's going to be people whohave this adverse reaction to
that idea, like it's.
It's slimy or dirty, but it'snot like.
And it can be like, but itdoesn't have to be right, it's
like if it's, if you, if yourgoal is to improve that
relationship and have outcomesthat are good for everybody,
(37:30):
then it's just a tool thatyou're using, as opposed to some
sort of sleight of hand.
Janelle Amos (37:37):
Well, I think it's all about intention.
You know, there's good humans,there's bad humans, and, at the
end of the day, whateversomebody's intention is is what
I'm going to hold true to them.
And so if your intention is totruly craft the best search
engine ad that there is, thenlet's collectively work together
to get there.
My intention isn't to make youseem like you don't know what
you're talking about, to makeyou seem like you don't have an
(37:59):
experience.
My objective and my intentionhere is to get us to the end
goal, and I think, at the end ofthe day, that's all we can hold
humans accountable for.
Um and on that.
Michael Hartmann (38:11):
I think the flip that though and this is
something I I try to just likedon't assume intent as well,
right, cause we have all haveour own preconceived notions
about things, or own of livedexperience, and it tends we tend
to attribute intent to people.
And sometimes and it tends, wetend to attribute intent to
(38:34):
people, and sometimes and I'msure I'm guilty of this too like
, sometimes it's because I likemaybe it's a day where I'm
really tired, and so they saidsomething that normally wouldn't
have triggered me, but it did.
So I'm like, oh, they're justtrying, and so often we're off
base and like the.
What I have tried, what I try todo on my better days, is to, if
(38:55):
some, especially if somethingis like it hits me and I'm like
bothered, like okay, what is itthat's bothering me?
And if I have the opportunityin the like and it's safe or
whatever, like, I will actuallyask something to understand,
like, yeah, you said this, thisis what it sounded like to me,
is that what you meant?
And it's it's really likestriking to me that that often
(39:20):
clears the air before anything.
Sometimes the answer is yes,that's what I intended, and then
you can deal with it.
But if your assumption waswrong.
Right, then you can also clearthat up.
Janelle Amos (39:30):
Yeah, that's a great approach.
Michael Hartmann (39:32):
So, um, yeah, well, this is has been
fascinating, like I would.
I think I think, um, if I thinkabout the lessons from our
conversation here, is like, hey,like reach out, try to build
that relationship and try to doit in the context of everyone,
like we're trying to do good fornot only us but the business
(39:53):
overall.
Right, and then, like, going toit with trust is a part of it,
like I want to trust you untilyou I mean people can lose trust
.
You can lose trust in people,for sure, but don't go in with
that assumption that you're notgoing to be able to trust
somebody Hopefully anything elsethat I missed major components
there but don't go in with thatassumption that you're not going
to be able to trust somebodyhopefully Anything else that I
missed Major components there.
Janelle Amos (40:13):
Well, I think it's great.
You know, I think, just knowthat humans are made to be
defensive and assess people'sintention before you create an
actual like persona of them andlabel them in the back of your
brain as bad.
Sometimes that means having ahard conversation, and that is
(40:38):
hard.
I'm not going to sugarcoat that.
But the outcome of thosenormally help in the long, long
scheme of things.
Michael Hartmann (40:43):
Agreed, agreed .
We're kind of up against timehere.
Any last thoughts before wewrap up.
Janelle Amos (40:54):
You know, if you want to be great at whatever
role, whether you're demand, genor operations I think it should
start from within and look atways to find an advocate.
You know plenty of successfulpeople have mentors, and whether
that's internal at yourorganization or external, I
(41:14):
would just say never give up andalways strive to be 1% better
every day 1% better every day.
Michael Hartmann (41:20):
I love it, Love it.
Well, this has been fun.
Janelle Appreciate it.
Thank you so much for doingthis.
If folks want to learn moreabout you or keep up with what
you're doing with Elevate,what's the best way for them to
do that?
Janelle Amos (41:32):
Yeah, I appreciate you having me.
This is the pleasure, is allmine.
You can follow me on LinkedInat Janelle Amos.
You can follow my podcast,amanda and Made Simple, and if
you want to say hi, you can sendme a direct message and we'll
chat.
Michael Hartmann (41:45):
Awesome.
Yeah, we'll have to put ournotes in the link to your
podcast too, so I know you'vehad some great guests out there,
so I think we'll wrap it upthere, janelle.
Thank you again.
So much fun, and thanks also toour listeners for their ongoing
support.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
(42:08):
you can always reach out to MikeNaomi or me through LinkedIn,
through the Marketing Opscommunity, and we'd be glad to
talk to you about it.
Until next time, bye, everybody.
Hello everyone , Welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
the MoPros out there.
I'm your host, Michael Hartman,flying solo today, so we'll get
Naomi or Mike back soon, I'msure.
Joining me today to talk abouthow demand generation and
marketing slash revenue opsteams can work together better
is Janelle Amos.
Janelle is founder and chiefstrategist of Elevate Growth,
(00:23):
her marketing and demand genagency.
Prior to founding ElevateGrowth, Janelle held several
leadership positions in demandgeneration, revenue marketing,
digital marketing and generalmarketing.
In addition, she is an advisor,podcast host and speaker.
So, Janelle, thanks for joiningme today.
Janelle Amos (00:39):
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to dive in.
Michael Hartmann (00:42):
Yeah, this is going to be fun and so we could
tell like we are covering bothDallas and the Fort Worth areas,
right, or sort of.
Janelle Amos (00:49):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (00:50):
Yeah, so we've got Texas.
Texas is raining today.
Texas represent.
That's right.
All right, as long as you'renot a you're not a TCU person,
are you?
Janelle Amos (01:01):
Well, my best friend is, so I kind of have to
be, but a TCU person are youWell, my best friend is, so I
kind of have to be.
But personally, Okay, BecauseI'm an SMU guy and that's like
it's hard for me to deal.
Michael Hartmann (01:14):
We got no beef , that's right, all right.
So you've spent most of yourcareer in demand generation and
you've worked with multiplemarketing operations teams, and
I think that's really why wewant to talk today.
But so let's just dive rightinto it.
Like what, from yourperspective, distinguishes the
best Mops teams that you'veworked with and maybe the other
side right, what are the?
(01:34):
You know, what are some of thethings that you think you've
learned over the years thatdemand generation folks could
learn about how to work bestwith marketing ops and more tech
teams?
Janelle Amos (01:48):
Yeah, I'll take your first question first, in
terms of how I found the bestmarketing operations teams and
from my experience it's beenthose that can somehow connect
the day-to-day tactics to thebusiness goal.
And so, instead of just keepingthe tunnel vision and kind of
the blinders on and poweringthrough because there's so much
(02:11):
work to be done on an operationside of things, the list is
never empty, but it's alwaysimportant to communicate and
advocate how it impacts whateverybody else is doing in the
organization, because it does.
In my opinion, it's thebackbone of how companies
operate, either successfully ordetrimentally, and not a whole
(02:39):
lot of positions fullycomprehend that implication.
And so the best marketingoperation folks who can
communicate that, in my opinion,really set them apart from the
rest.
Michael Hartmann (02:50):
Gotcha.
So when you say communicatingthat, are you talking about what
they're doing, how they'resupporting the teams?
Is it just that they showunderstanding of the way the
business works?
Janelle Amos (03:04):
It's understanding of how the business works and
the implications for it.
So a great example would bedata.
If you have bad data, thecompany cannot operate.
The implications are marketingcan't send emails.
The implications are you can'tsegment lists.
The implications are yourreporting is going to be crap.
The implications are when theexecutive team has the
conversations with the board andthey're asking great, what
(03:26):
levers are you going to beinvesting in for the next
quarter?
If you're reliant on data andyour data's off and you go back
that next quarter and you comeback and you say, just kidding,
our data was wrong, we wasted anentire quarter.
The implications are big andoperations teams need to
communicate that and advocatefor the work and say I need
(03:49):
throwing this number out there$30,000, $60,000 for support to
clean up our data, here's whyand connect it to who they're
communicating the business casewith.
Michael Hartmann (03:59):
Right.
Yeah, it's interesting becauseI think data is one of those
ones especially let's set asidelike reporting, analytics, like
almost backward looking stuff,but like just in the day to day,
like I always think about this,like the value of data is.
Well, the danger of not havinggood data is just a simple thing
, like, hey, we want to targetour best customers, right.
(04:22):
However, you want to definethat If you can't do that easily
, because the data is a mess andupstream processes or whatever
that's like, it makes it reallyhard to be effective at doing
anything and it slows everythingdown and then, over time, if
you don't address it right,degrades trust in the data,
degrades trust in the team, andthat's not where you want to be
(04:42):
right.
Janelle Amos (04:43):
That's a costly implication.
Turnover, replacement,retention of employees I mean
those you know those add up.
Michael Hartmann (04:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So if you were, if you weretalking to other demand gen
professionals, like how wouldbecause I do think, if I
suspected, like if I wasimagining what some of our
listeners might be imaginingright, Like oh, yeah, yeah, I
get it, it's all on us to gofigure out understand the
business.
They don't understand what wedo either.
How would you help demand genfolks who maybe actually don't
(05:17):
understand how their mops teamscan be leveraged to do that
better?
Janelle Amos (05:22):
Ask.
Michael Hartmann (05:22):
That's the number one thing that I've
always one tried to be in myrole and to try to encourage
others to be is curious yeah, Ilove that, I agree, like I'm a
big fan of that too, like I, andI think it hit me a couple of
different ways in my career.
One was like a weird one, whichwas when I was early in my
(05:45):
career in marketing and I was ata big company and they were
doing there.
I happened to come in a weekwhere they were doing one of
these customer panels wherethere's a someone who's
facilitating a conversation witha bunch of customers or
potential customers, and then wewere back behind the I can't
remember, is it one way glass,twoway mirror, whatever and I
was like I was like wanting toscream.
(06:07):
I'm like, what are these peopledoing?
And it made me realize like, oh, I need to actually be more
curious and listen, so fromcustomers.
That's one, and then the otheris working with different people
, both being curious.
But one of the things I gotbenefit from and it was sort of
forced at one company differentcompany in this case where
everyone was required, and I waslike they got rid of this too
(06:30):
and I was like why had to gospend like half, half a day
every like twice a year withsomeone in another department?
It didn't even have to be oneyou worked with normally, so,
like in this case, big eventcompany.
So, like the people whoactually did production on our
events, right, I spent time andit was really really helpful to
(06:50):
understand how the rest of thecompany worked and not make
assumptions, and I alwaysenjoyed it when people were like
sit in shadow with me too.
Have you ever done anythinglike that?
Yeah, Beyond just askingquestions.
Janelle Amos (07:05):
Yeah, and I actually recommend it too.
Did you ever?
Have you ever done anythinglike that Beyond just asking
questions?
Yeah, and I actually recommendit too.
You know, just if you're a newhire at a company, go and sit
with other people on your team,cross departments, see if you
can shadow some of theexecutives, depending on your
role, and just learn, be asponge, and then the insights
that you can take from thosewill be able to mold how you can
(07:26):
be more successful.
You'll get insights like how tocommunicate with individuals,
what it actually takes to makesomething come to life, how long
it takes in a process or whatspecific bottlenecks there are,
and maybe you could find somequick wins.
Maybe you could find someempathy for how long it takes
some teams.
A lot of learnings can comefrom it, but you've got to take
(07:47):
the first initiative and just becurious.
Michael Hartmann (07:51):
Heavy.
Do you recommend?
Would you recommend to ourlisteners who are marketing
folks to try to do that Not onlydo that with people internally,
but also maybe be able to sitin on like customer calls or
prospect calls?
Janelle Amos (08:02):
I will say, if you ever get a chance to, yes.
A lot of companies that I havefound they like to gatekeep who
are on those calls.
Sure, so it might not always bepossible, but if the
opportunity is there, certainlythere's so much you can learn
from their front lines.
If not, then ask if the callcan be recorded, see if you can
(08:22):
get the cliff notes from ChatGPTand just learn.
I think a lot of insights cancome from just the recording.
Of course it's not going to bethe best if you're not in the
room asking questions, likereading the emotions and behind
it, but if you can take one stepforward, then certainly you've
got to learn on all differentdepartments and avenues and
(08:44):
especially your customers.
Michael Hartmann (08:46):
Yeah, I mean the way I think about that one
in particular, why, I asked, isit kind of goes back to that
example of being behind thetwo-way glass or two-way mirror,
right?
Or was it like?
Part of what was frustrating tome is I felt like they weren't
using the right language.
But then I realized in themiddle of it, like actually
we're not using the rightlanguage because if we're not
(09:07):
matching what they're saying ordoing, how they think about
these, and that's actually on us, not on them.
So, and then that made mebetter.
At the time I was doing a lotof like search marketing stuff
too.
So when I was working with ourproduct marketing teams um, I
was, I was better consultativelywith them on like how to, how
(09:35):
to improve the results of whatwe were doing, right, so having
that customer languageunderstanding, so I can imagine
if you're doing a full campaign,right, content's going to be
important.
Yeah, and I always say you know, just because I'm a marketer
and we're doing a full campaignright.
Janelle Amos (09:45):
Content's going to be important, yeah, and I
always say, you know, justbecause I'm a marketer and we're
talking to other marketers, youknow, marketing one-on-one is
tailor your message to youraudience, and that's the same
thing when it comes toadvocating or communicating
internally as well as who areyou talking to, what are they
gold on, and how can we worktogether to be successful?
Michael Hartmann (10:04):
What are they gold on and how can we work
together to be successful?
So when you, like you said,like one of the things to do is
be like, maybe be the one thatasks the first to try to connect
the dots with these other teamsand maybe sit with them, like,
how do you have any advice?
Like there's going to be somepeople who are totally
(10:24):
comfortable with that right noproblem asking and others who
maybe will feel like, oh, Idon't want to bother these
people or I'm uncomfortable withthat.
Like how, any suggestions forhow to just approach that kind
of conversation?
Janelle Amos (10:38):
Yeah, I think in any role to really be fulfilled
you have to have one personwho's willing to be your
advocate.
So if you don't feel comfortablegoing to another department or
even somebody else who might bemore senior to you, I would find
your advocate and help them beyour champion.
So a great example would be ifboth demand gen and marketing
operations report to the CMO,then if you're intimidated to
(11:03):
talk directly to the operationsperson but you're best friends
with the CMO and you guys have agreat working relationship, I
would advocate to the CMO andask I want to be curious, I want
to learn more about how topartner better with the
operations team.
Could you help facilitate moreopen conversations between maybe
(11:25):
the entire team, between me andthe operations person?
This is what I'm hoping to getout of it.
Let me know how I can bestsupport.
And then you get into the roomright and then afterwards you
can do a debrief with the cmoand you can ask what did I do
well, what did I do bad, wherecan I improve?
And you can take those keylearnings as well as your.
You know, know, I say firstparty feedback from meeting
(11:47):
directly with the operationsperson and learn for the next
time.
Michael Hartmann (11:51):
So in that case, you're actually asking the
advocate not only to helpbroker the discussion, but
actually be in the room virtualroom, whatever as a part of that
, to help facilitate thatcommunication too.
Is that what you're saying?
Janelle Amos (12:04):
Maybe it would depend on the situation, right?
So if you would feel mostcomfortable in having that
person in the room, then I don'tsee any harm, as long as they
understand that their role is tofacilitate.
If you just need theintroduction to get into the
same room, then you can say cool, I got it from here, Thanks.
Michael Hartmann (12:20):
It just all depends on the comfort level,
you know seniority level of theindividual and kind of what
support they would need in thataspect.
I think that's, that's a goodidea.
I it's not somewhat obvious nowthat I think about it, but I
hadn't actually thought of thatas a as a tactic and probably
because I'm comfortable.
I'd be comfortable going andasking directly, right.
Janelle Amos (12:40):
So it's like um that's a good question, Cause
not everybody is comfortable,you know so yeah.
Michael Hartmann (12:47):
So, um, let's say that you get that meeting
scheduled like, like, how, howhave you seen it work well or
not work well, when you like?
Let's assume that's like thebeginning of some sort of
connection, hopefully.
Um, like, how would you like,how would you approach or how
have you approached structuringthose, keeping them going?
Janelle Amos (13:12):
Yeah, great question.
I would recommend those to berecurring, so whether, depending
on your company culture, weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, but you
need to have something on thecalendar going forward.
The objective initially will beto understand let's understand
what your goal is, let'sunderstand what keeps you up at
night, let's understand how Ican best help.
And then thereafter we canstart working on mutually
(13:35):
crafting strategies and planstogether to achieve what we both
want from outcomes.
And then thereafter, on ourrecurring meetings, we talk
about how we're pacing towardsthose, anything else that we're
facing externally, any otherbottlenecks now that we've
implemented some of those.
But on both parties have toremain curious and open and
(13:57):
sometimes things don't always gothe right way.
The two of them could have ahypothesis put it in market and
it flop.
That doesn't mean that you'reboth bad, that's marketing right
.
So in that next call, it's notyou did this wrong, you did that
wrong.
You know dah, dah, dah, dah,dah.
It's.
Listen, this flop to.
What are we going to do betternext time?
And then you objectively havethat conversation.
Michael Hartmann (14:18):
Yeah, it's like looking for lessons learned
.
So, um, what I've had similarthings to that and one of the
things that I've struggled with,I think, over, especially over
time the longer it goes is justkind of keeping track of all the
different things we've talkedabout and having like tracking
(14:39):
of that, making sure we're doingit.
So, um, I know there's probablya lot of people would sort of
gravitate right to some sort ofproject management system for
that.
I tend to like spreadsheetsjust easier for tracking that
kind of stuff.
Do you, do you have apreference for like how you
track those things?
Janelle Amos (14:58):
I know it's pretty tactical, but I'm gonna
apologize because I thinksomebody just knocked on my door
and if you guys can hear my dogin the background, is it too
noisy?
Michael Hartmann (15:06):
It's real life .
Janelle Amos (15:07):
It's real life.
Okay, here we are.
We're authentic In terms of howto best track that, I would say
.
Do whatever the culture of thecompany is, if it is acceptable
in a spreadsheet, if it's in adashboard okay.
Michael Hartmann (15:28):
So one of the things challenges I have with,
uh, these ongoing conversationslike that is just tracking what
we've talked about action items,all that kind of stuff and I
tend to use spreadsheets and alot of people probably would um
think about using a projectmanagement system.
To me it seems like a littleoverkill, but just very tactical
question.
But like, do you have apreference for how you do that
(15:49):
or what do you?
What do you like to do?
You have a preference for howyou do that, or what do you?
What do you?
Janelle Amos (15:51):
like to do.
Yeah, normally a working Googledoc.
You know that you can set themeeting agenda, you can scribble
on some notes and then everyweek it's one live working doc
that we can keep track ofconversations, you know next
steps, et cetera.
Michael Hartmann (16:06):
Yeah, like I mean, I like having a standard
agenda too, so I just it's, it'salways good Um.
One of the things when you andI talked before that you
mentioned that I really want youmentioned um.
In these relationships,sometimes it's good to.
I think the word you use washero, like be a hero for the
(16:27):
other person or the team in someways.
Can you go a little deeper onwhat you meant by that?
Janelle Amos (16:34):
Well, us, as humans, we're very defensive,
and when somebody is I don'tknow what you're talking about.
When somebody starts poking alittle bit in a way, I don't
know where, you're insecure, oryou know, you have some you know
past drama, things start to,you know, your hair start to
spike up a little bit more thanjust an average hey, how are you
(16:56):
doing Coffee talk?
And so what I would recommendothers is, if you're put in a
position to have anuncomfortable or a hard
conversation, would be to frameyourself in a way to be the hero
and not necessarily or, excuseme like even make them the hero
and have you be the sidekick,because you're not trying to
(17:18):
take the credit, you're nottrying to one-up, you're not
trying to show that you'rebetter than them.
At least I would hope not, butat the end of the day, we both
have to get over this hurdletogether.
So let's objectivelycommunicate the elephant in the
room, you know.
Let's eliminate all thefeelsies of I feel like, or you
know, you know all the, all thesensory words and really just
(17:41):
get back to the facts of.
You know, I've observed X, yand Z has happened.
I would like to have X, y and Zbe a result.
Michael Hartmann (17:49):
You know how can we have a conversation to
mutually get us there?
Yeah, I probably shared thisbefore on other episodes, but
I'm a big fan of there's twobooks, similar titles, one's
called Crucial Conversations,one's called Crucial
Confrontations, and they kind ofprovide frameworks for those
(18:11):
kinds of difficult conversationsthat you were mentioning.
I mean, I know that one of thethings I try to do if I'm
dealing with someone where, likemaybe that I've reached out,
started this meeting, it's stilllike a resistance kind of thing
, like they're not totallybought into it is it's almost
like a negotiation ploy, likewould you be willing to try this
right, like get them to say yesto one thing, even if it's a
(18:34):
small step right where they'veotherwise been resistant?
Have you ever like, have youever run into that where you've
had, like really someone who's achallenge to like to get them
to to work together on something, and have you worked through it
like that?
Janelle Amos (18:47):
yes and no.
No, yes, certainly facedindividuals who you know, when
you ask an open question such aswould you be willing to do this
?
No, like entirely unworkable.
But in that situation this goesback to having an advocate, you
know, or having been in a rolewhere you can then say, you know
(19:09):
, disagree and commit, likewe've got to do something.
We can't sit here and iterateforever, so let's disagree and
commit.
If we're not on the same pageand that keeps the go-to-market
motion moving, it doesn't keepin.
You know, they said, we said,who said it's just all right,
cool.
I disagree, like I think weshould go a different way.
(19:32):
But you know we're both here toget a job done.
Disagree and commit.
Michael Hartmann (19:36):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of.
That's not the phrase I've usedin the past.
I I always use the wordconsensus, right, and usually
applies more in a maybe a largergroup than just a one-on-one
kind of thing.
But I always it has the samesentiment.
Right, everyone has their stay.
We make a decision and we allgo support it.
(19:57):
Right, like that's, that's ourjob.
Which then leads to downstream,which is if it works, or like
if it doesn't work.
Right, if you were the one whosaid I was advocating for
alternative X and we went with Yand it didn't work, like it's
all your fault, like you don'tget to go blame people, right,
your job is to then go figureout well, what should we do next
(20:19):
and learn from it.
So there's a little bit ofgrace involved with that.
So when you've done that, yeah,disagree and commit model model
.
How has that played out?
Janelle Amos (20:34):
Good, honestly, because it's gotten us in a room
where we could communicatetrust and if we got to the point
of disagreeing but committing,that's all we needed.
And then the outcome is let'ssee if it works.
And then, if it does or if itdoesn't, right and going into.
(20:55):
If it does, and it's okay, cool, what idea would you like to
try next?
If I agree or disagree, let'scommit, you know.
Then if it doesn't work, thenit's all right, now we learned.
What would you like to try next?
So it's kind of a twofoldeither way and building rapport.
And if you do that enough times, then you have that rapport,
(21:15):
peer-to-peer to where we canhave that open discussion.
Going forward, we'll regroupagain, disagree and come in and
we'll see.
We'll let the data speak foritself.
Michael Hartmann (21:26):
Yeah, I think for those of our listeners who
have not tried something likethis, where it feels like
they're always butting headsright, I think if you can try
something like this disagree andcommit it will become way more
natural.
Right, because it's not easy atfirst, especially if you're the
kind of person who isuncomfortable with conflict,
(21:48):
right?
So cause, sometimes that's whatit feels like.
Cause, you're right, people doget defensive and that's we're
human.
That's probably the defaultstate.
Janelle Amos (21:56):
Yeah, I will say though um, I'm not quite sure
what level your audience isright on, Um, but I feel like
having that mentality is almostessential to break into senior
leadership, executive level.
I mean, I've been in roomswhere executives are yelling at
each other and at the end of theday they walk out and they're
(22:17):
handshaking.
I'm like it's just, it's partof the gig, it's not personal.
Is it uncomfortable in themoment?
Sure, maybe, but it's business.
And I'm not saying it'sbusiness or it's okay to just
yell at other people.
It's not.
But the reality is a trueexecutive team is not going to
agree 100% of the time, and thewhole point is to build a team
(22:38):
that has diverse opinions andexperiences and welcome a
conversation on how we could bedifferent and challenge the
status quo.
That's a team you want to workfor, and so I think at some
point you know to your listenersthat are listening to this is
you have to, at some point, beokay with being in a room like
(22:58):
that if you want to be in thenext level.
That's just part of the job.
It doesn't mean that you haveto be unethical.
It doesn't mean that you haveto be a terrible human being.
That doesn't mean you know thisand that it just means that
it's part of the job, it's notpersonal, and it's an
opportunity for you to shareyour perspective on navigating a
business.
Michael Hartmann (23:19):
Yeah, I mean, it's 100% agree.
I coach people and one of thethings I like coaching kind of
is people who are like coachkind of is people who are like
soon to be or in one of theirearly roles as a people leader.
Because that's one of thelessons I always tell people
like you've got to getcomfortable with uncomfortable
conversations, right, let's bethe.
(23:39):
The one they think about iswith the people who work for
them or report to them.
But it goes all directions.
Right, it was with your boss,with your peers, you know, with
your peers, boss.
Like you've got to getcomfortable with that, otherwise
you're going to get like it'sgoing to be really it's going to
be a terrible experience butyou're going to get plowed over
from those who don't have thatlevel, right, right and I'm with
(24:02):
you like you brought it up acouple of times, so I just want
like so I am totally fine withpassionately fighting for your
position, as long as it doesn'tget personal.
If it gets personal, that'scrossed the line, right?
If it's your idea, like I don'tagree with your idea, it
doesn't make any sense to me.
(24:23):
Okay, if you go to the nextstep and go like you're an idiot
, no, no, you're pushing, likethat's not.
That's when my defensemechanism I know I would go up,
like I would be like okay, nowit's on.
Janelle Amos (24:37):
Yeah, I think if you're in a room where you have
to defend your experience oryour role, then I would say
you're in the wrong room,because I've been fortunate to
have been in rooms where theexecutive team is like I have no
clue what you're talking about,janelle, or no.
I disagree entirely with that.
But I trust you, so prove mewrong and I'm like bet, and then
(24:59):
you go and you build thatrapport.
But there's got to be a levelof trust.
There has to be a level ofmutually wanting to make it work
, and if that's not there, thenI would say you're probably in
the wrong room.
Michael Hartmann (25:13):
yeah, no, I I think you're right.
Like, to me, that trust pieceis really, really important.
And I see, um, I see actuallysee a lot of ops teams put in,
marketing teams in general, likeput on all these gates for like
getting things done Right,particularly like review and
approval processes.
That I to me are often.
(25:34):
When I see that, I often golike there's a trust issue at
this organization, right, it'snot about like, do we trust
people do good work and make youknow and then own the outcomes?
If you don't, then that's whenyou start seeing these things
like you know, four levels ofreview and approval, multiple
iterations of the same thingwith like small tweaks, it's
(25:56):
like, no, that's not the problemyeah, that's a great
perspective yeah, um.
So you know, we've talked alittle bit about like this
process of building kind of agood working relationship and
rapport and all that with a peerand maybe the peers team and
(26:18):
your team.
Does you think it matters thatmuch if it's let's just keep it
to ops and demand generate?
Do you think it matters if it'sdemand gen, who starts it or up
starts it?
Does it like?
Do you think it's worked betterone way or the other?
Janelle Amos (26:32):
I don't think it matters from a role standpoint.
I will say whichever one is thenewest to the org should be the
one that facilitates it.
So the ops has been there forsix months and the demand gen
person is brand new.
My expectation would be thedemand gen person to facilitate
that, because you're stepping incurious, you're stepping in
(26:54):
trying to understand the lay ofthe land.
You're stepping in trying tounderstand where the bodies are
buried.
You're stepping in trying tounderstand strategy.
Right, there's a lot that youshould be learning, and if
connecting with people who arealready in the day-to-day is not
a part of that, my expectationis that that demand gen person
probably won't be successful.
Same thing if the tables wereflipped right.
Michael Hartmann (27:14):
Yeah.
Janelle Amos (27:14):
Demand-gen person was there.
The operations come in.
They should be asking what'sworked, what's not worked, where
the body's buried, whatproblems are you having?
Is it data?
Is it processes?
Is it technology?
What's important for you in thenext 30, 60?
All those things so role-based,not so much Whoever's newer to
the org.
Michael Hartmann (27:41):
That's an interesting one, because I think
I almost have the oppositereaction to that.
I would think the person who'sbeen there longer should take a
little more responsibility forthat.
I see where you're coming fromand maybe it's the nature of
I've.
Could be because I've worked alittle more for, like mid to
large size companies more thansmall companies and, um, I mean
(28:03):
my limited experience with smallcompanies.
Yes, I think I would agree.
Right, the new person is likeshould be jumping in and
building those relationships anda larger company.
The reason I think of that is Ithink about when I've hired
people at large companies, likeI spend, like I hire people
expecting to be able to do thethe details of the job, but I
don't expect them to knownecessarily the organization and
(28:25):
I spend a lot of time just liketeaching them that and like
then it's like part of my job islike facilitating those
connections for those people,and I think of like, think of it
the same way, like the personwho's you know understands the
organization better is the onewho should take that first step
well, it makes sense, it totallymakes sense.
Janelle Amos (28:44):
And you know here, disagree to commit right?
Um, I don't necessarily agreewith that.
And here's why, if we flip itfrom an org standpoint and say
you know a CMO is hiring ademand gen person, my
expectation is that the CMOwould then be like okay, here's
you know who you should be doingand connecting and here's your
(29:05):
onboarding and holding your handand those type of things.
But when it comes down to,you're the senior leader.
If I were a CMO stepping into acompany and I don't facilitate
conversations with the team thatI'm inheriting or much like the
rest of the executive team,people are going to be like you
know what are they doing.
So it just comes down, in myopinion, is how you want to be
(29:28):
perceived.
Are you perceived as astrategic leader or are you
perceived as a doer?
If you want to be perceived andmaking an impact at the company,
I think it's mission criticalto be the one facilitating those
conversations and showcasingthat you're capable.
If not, then you're easilygoing to be bucketed, which, in
my opinion, you don't want to beinto.
Their junior right.
(29:50):
We have to handhold their twogreen and if you're not green or
junior, then you know youbetter act like it.
Show them who's boss, yeah.
Michael Hartmann (30:00):
Okay, yeah, no , I think, like, even if you're
not and you don't like, this isthis is the one of those
uncomfortable truths, right?
I think perception is reality,right?
So if you're not doing thingsto change that perception, then
you, the perception is going tobe how you're treated too.
That's kind of what you'resaying, right?
Janelle Amos (30:17):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (30:19):
Yeah, makes sense.
Yeah, fair enough, like, um,yeah, yeah, I don't even know
that there's a right answer.
I think maybe these are noteven two sides of the same coin,
right?
I think both can be true, right, sure, yes, yeah, and I think
maybe that's where it is.
So let's say that kind ofconnection doesn't happen, right
(30:45):
?
What do you think the outcomeis going to be if those, if
those, some like one, one person, one team or another doesn't
like start that, thatinteraction?
Janelle Amos (30:56):
Well, I think there's several implications.
Number one is you will beoperating in silo, which is
detrimental to a go-to-market.
Go-to-market has to havemultiple cross departments
working in unison, and if onedepartment can't even do that,
how are you going to roll thatout across multiple?
Two is the sooner that you canbreak down the initial barrier
between human to human andreally get on somebody's I don't
(31:18):
want to say good side, but likegood working side, you know
where you want to build a teamand do good work and you get
excited about things.
The longer that it takes foryou to get there, the longer
that things start to get inmotion, it's going to be a lot
of friction or it's going to bedelayed timelines, delayed
processes, and it's just goingto constantly feel hard or take
(31:41):
longer than it needs to, and sothe implication, in my opinion,
is detrimental to the business.
Michael Hartmann (31:47):
Sure, yeah, in my opinion is detrimental to
the business.
Sure, that's yeah.
No, the idea like there's goingto be again goes back to your
point about like people getdefensive, right, it's going to,
it's going to lead to thatfriction and frustration and
finger pointing, and then that'snaturally you can get the
reaction and then, yeah, I cansee nothing gets done, right but
(32:07):
I don't feel like we shouldapproach it in a lens of saying
that the other is wrong.
Janelle Amos (32:12):
I mean, we're talking about two totally
different roles you know thereshouldn't be.
You know my way, or the highwayit's, at the end of the day,
demand, gen and ops have to worktogether in unison lockstep.
How we get there?
That's the conversation to behad.
Michael Hartmann (32:34):
I could not.
Yeah, I mean I think there's.
I didn't mean to imply thatthat's not the case.
Right, that shouldn't be thegoal.
I'm just saying like I thinkmaybe it's.
It could be one or either sidecould be resistant to the whole
idea, and that's when, like thenit's going to devolve and
that's not like that.
Yeah, you're right, it's likethen it's detrimental to the
(32:56):
business.
Janelle Amos (32:57):
Yeah, and you know I'm going to call you out.
It's not about you gettingdefensive, it wasn't anything
you said.
You know, it's just theconversation for the podcast and
interpretation for the audienceand listeners.
Michael Hartmann (33:15):
It could go multiple different ways.
Right, it's just my opinion,your opinion, yeah, I well, I
think I think you're you'rehitting on something I've said
too, though, which is likethere's not always, I think,
people get caught up in usingwords like the right way or um,
it's correct, like I, I think Ithink, especially in the lens of
marketing, I mean, so much isto some degree.
Some of it is luck, some of itis you know, you know you're
(33:38):
like you need to know youraudience, in this case really
well to to make the mark.
But it's like, it's still likeI go back to my search marketing
days, right, the, I canprobably go back if I really
wanted to go.
Like I go back to my searchmarketing days right, the, I can
probably go back if I reallywanted to go.
Like I know there, I know thereare cases where I thought, um,
like we were going back andforth debating about one word on
a search ad, for example, right, and they basically had the
(34:00):
same meaning, and like, well,duh, let's just do a test, right
, let's see what happens.
And I think I my the one Ithought would perform better was
right half the time, and halfthe time it wasn't right and
there's.
No, there was no pattern to itreally, other than it just
happened that way, and I thinkthat was again like an
eye-opening thing, like when yougo like like this is I don't
(34:25):
want to discount how importantour work is and like you should
care about your work and beinvested in it, but at the end
of the day, most of the peoplewho are going to be listening to
this, their job is not going toaffect someone's life.
I have a friend who, literally,is a neurosurgeon.
His job it's another level andI think it's easy to lose that
(34:47):
perspective.
So this idea like this is theright way to do it.
It's another level and I thinkit's easy to lose that
perspective about.
So this idea like this is theright way to do it.
Janelle Amos (34:56):
Well, maybe, maybe , there's lots of different
right ways.
Yeah, and I think the bestthing for me and I'll say this
time and time again was turninginto a consultant, because
essentially you're able to havethat conversation objectively
and backtrack to where you makeit somebody else's idea.
So, for example, we're talkingabout your search ad and we want
to say, cool, we want to havethe best performing search ad
(35:20):
that there is.
What are all the differentavenues that we could get there?
Okay, cool, you don't know.
Let me help you map it out.
We could do this, this, this,this, this.
We could have this, we're that,we're this, this, we could have
this word, that word, this word, that word, da, da, da.
And I lean to you and I saywhich one do you want to do?
And you say you know, I don'tknow, um, a, we'll do a and b
for easy.
You say a and I'm like well,you know, we could also consider
(35:40):
b, we can consider c.
Is there a reason why you'renot considering the other ones?
And I would hear you out and Iwas was like you know, we could
also do an AB test and we couldbetter understand, just
objectively, you know, causeit's always good to have
different creatives in market.
And you know it's our firsttime running a campaign to the
audience.
We'll let the data tell us.
Your idea is let's do an ABtest.
(36:01):
Awesome Thumbs up.
Let's move forward.
And it's not who said they saidego, ego.
You know defensiveness,whatever it's, we want to get
the best performing ad.
The best way to do that isstatistically.
Michael Hartmann (36:22):
you know companies who run A B tests for
the first initial da da, da dada, you know.
See results X, y and Z faster.
Yeah, I truly believe that'sthe best way.
I love it.
Let people believe the idea wasthere.
Yeah, these are all like.
So I go back to Brandy.
Sanders was one of our firstguests and many of our listeners
may know who she is, but shesaid something that still sticks
with me now, going well pastfour years, like five years
(36:45):
later, which is she's saying inthe context of for ops people
but I think it's true, probablyof anybody in corporate world is
that you know we should be, youshould learn to play chess and
learn human psychology.
Right Cause, right.
And that human psychology partis what you're talking about.
Right Like how to influencepeople, and it probably sounds
(37:10):
to people like people.
There's going to be people whohave this adverse reaction to
that idea, like it's.
It's slimy or dirty, but it'snot like.
And it can be like, but itdoesn't have to be right, it's
like if it's, if you, if yourgoal is to improve that
relationship and have outcomesthat are good for everybody,
(37:30):
then it's just a tool thatyou're using, as opposed to some
sort of sleight of hand.
Janelle Amos (37:37):
Well, I think it's all about intention.
You know, there's good humans,there's bad humans, and, at the
end of the day, whateversomebody's intention is is what
I'm going to hold true to them.
And so if your intention is totruly craft the best search
engine ad that there is, thenlet's collectively work together
to get there.
My intention isn't to make youseem like you don't know what
you're talking about, to makeyou seem like you don't have an
(37:59):
experience.
My objective and my intentionhere is to get us to the end
goal, and I think, at the end ofthe day, that's all we can hold
humans accountable for.
Um and on that.
Michael Hartmann (38:11):
I think the flip that though and this is
something I I try to just likedon't assume intent as well,
right, cause we have all haveour own preconceived notions
about things, or own of livedexperience, and it tends we tend
to attribute intent to people.
And sometimes and it tends, wetend to attribute intent to
(38:34):
people, and sometimes and I'msure I'm guilty of this too like
, sometimes it's because I likemaybe it's a day where I'm
really tired, and so they saidsomething that normally wouldn't
have triggered me, but it did.
So I'm like, oh, they're justtrying, and so often we're off
base and like the.
What I have tried, what I try todo on my better days, is to, if
(38:55):
some, especially if somethingis like it hits me and I'm like
bothered, like okay, what is itthat's bothering me?
And if I have the opportunityin the like and it's safe or
whatever, like, I will actuallyask something to understand,
like, yeah, you said this, thisis what it sounded like to me,
is that what you meant?
And it's it's really likestriking to me that that often
(39:20):
clears the air before anything.
Sometimes the answer is yes,that's what I intended, and then
you can deal with it.
But if your assumption waswrong.
Right, then you can also clearthat up.
Janelle Amos (39:30):
Yeah, that's a great approach.
Michael Hartmann (39:32):
So, um, yeah, well, this is has been
fascinating, like I would.
I think I think, um, if I thinkabout the lessons from our
conversation here, is like, hey,like reach out, try to build
that relationship and try to doit in the context of everyone,
like we're trying to do good fornot only us but the business
(39:53):
overall.
Right, and then, like, going toit with trust is a part of it,
like I want to trust you untilyou I mean people can lose trust
.
You can lose trust in people,for sure, but don't go in with
that assumption that you're notgoing to be able to trust
somebody Hopefully anything elsethat I missed major components
there but don't go in with thatassumption that you're not going
to be able to trust somebodyhopefully Anything else that I
missed Major components there.
Janelle Amos (40:13):
Well, I think it's great.
You know, I think, just knowthat humans are made to be
defensive and assess people'sintention before you create an
actual like persona of them andlabel them in the back of your
brain as bad.
Sometimes that means having ahard conversation, and that is
(40:38):
hard.
I'm not going to sugarcoat that.
But the outcome of thosenormally help in the long, long
scheme of things.
Michael Hartmann (40:43):
Agreed, agreed .
We're kind of up against timehere.
Any last thoughts before wewrap up.
Janelle Amos (40:54):
You know, if you want to be great at whatever
role, whether you're demand, genor operations I think it should
start from within and look atways to find an advocate.
You know plenty of successfulpeople have mentors, and whether
that's internal at yourorganization or external, I
(41:14):
would just say never give up andalways strive to be 1% better
every day 1% better every day.
Michael Hartmann (41:20):
I love it, Love it.
Well, this has been fun.
Janelle Appreciate it.
Thank you so much for doingthis.
If folks want to learn moreabout you or keep up with what
you're doing with Elevate,what's the best way for them to
do that?
Janelle Amos (41:32):
Yeah, I appreciate you having me.
This is the pleasure, is allmine.
You can follow me on LinkedInat Janelle Amos.
You can follow my podcast,amanda and Made Simple, and if
you want to say hi, you can sendme a direct message and we'll
chat.
Michael Hartmann (41:45):
Awesome.
Yeah, we'll have to put ournotes in the link to your
podcast too, so I know you'vehad some great guests out there,
so I think we'll wrap it upthere, janelle.
Thank you again.
So much fun, and thanks also toour listeners for their ongoing
support.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
(42:08):
you can always reach out to MikeNaomi or me through LinkedIn,
through the Marketing Opscommunity, and we'd be glad to
talk to you about it.
Until next time, bye, everybody.
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