June 16, 2025 • 47 mins
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On today's episode, we talk with Ahmad Moore, founder of Pressure Marketing, to unpack his unconventional but deeply inspiring journey into marketing operations. From IT help desk roots to sales leadership and now running his own MOps-focused agency, Ahad shares how leaning into empathy, technical curiosity, and a hunger for alignment helped shape his path.
✨ Tune in to hear:
- Why marketing ops is “IT with better branding” — and why that matters
- The underrated power of listening deeply and building an “empathy engine”
- How cross-functional experience in sales, strategy, and support creates a sharper MOps perspective
- Lessons learned from building systems under pressure (literally and figuratively)
- How Ahad is using AI and HubSpot to scale smarter, not harder
Episode Brought to You By MO Pros
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Hartmann (00:01):
Hello and welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
the MoPros out there.
I'm your host, michael Hartman,back again joined by my co-host
, nami Liu.
Hello.
Naomi Liu (00:13):
It's been a while.
It's been a little.
I know it has been.
I'm glad we got this to sync upand work.
Michael Hartmann (00:19):
I am always happy to have you on these calls
.
I like to hear that.
Yeah, well, people must gettired of hearing my voice, so
they need to hear other voices.
Anyway, so, joining us today totalk about his career
trajectory and how following hispassion shaped his career is
Ahmad Moore.
(00:39):
Ahmad is the founder ofPressure Marketing, a marketing
operations slash automationagency.
He has over 10 years ofexperience in marketing
operations and he specializes inaligning sales and marketing
teams through strategicautomation, process optimization
and powerful tech integrations.
Prior to founding his agency,he held multiple leadership and
line roles in marketingautomation and operations.
(01:01):
He also has experience in salesand business development in
multiple organizations and hestarted his career in an IT help
desk role.
So, ahmad, thanks for joiningus today.
Ahmad Moore (01:12):
Thanks, michael, happy to be here.
Hey, Naomi, how are you doing?
Naomi Liu (01:17):
I'm good.
How are you?
Ahmad Moore (01:18):
Doing great Thanks.
Michael Hartmann (01:20):
Thanks for having me Good, and we're
scattered all across thecontinent here.
So well, let's get this started.
So, ahmad, I wanted to say thatyour path to marketing
operations is unusual which itis, but it seems to be more the
norm than the exception for manypeople we've talked to.
(01:42):
So, yeah, let's walk throughyour career and I would love for
you to share along the way thelessons you learned kind of each
of the different stops and howit helped you kind of get to
where you are today.
But let's think, like one ofthe things that's unusual is
that you started in IT help deskrole.
So what were, what were some ofthe things you did on a regular
basis then, or lessons that youlearned then that you apply
(02:06):
today or have applied along theway throughout different parts
of your career and I know wemight hit some of those as we
get into it later in thediscussion.
Ahmad Moore (02:16):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree that it's you
can call it a differenttrajectory, but it does seem to
be more common in common, as Ihear people who are in ops now.
But, funny enough, starting atthe IT help desk role, I tell
people marketing ops is just ITwith better branding, and you
(02:39):
may or may not agree with thatdefinition, but sometimes that's
the easiest answer to give toexplain to someone what we do in
marketing ops.
So when I was on the IT helpdesk I was kind of like the guy
making sure systems talk to eachother and users had what they
needed and things didn't breakin the middle of a launch.
(03:02):
So, if anything, any of thosethings sound familiar.
That is very, I think, commonto what we do in our marketing
operations role.
So I think what the IT helpdesk roles did is give me a
really good foundation for theway databases work.
I did a lot of data hygiene butreally it gave me two
(03:24):
superpowers.
I like to say right.
So it gave me one.
It gave me a sixth sense formessy data.
Right, so I can smell dirty CRMfields through a Zoom screen.
Right, when I see dirty data, Iknow it pretty quickly.
And the second superpower kindof gave me was what I like to
(03:45):
call like an empathy engine,Right?
So what that means is I learnedhow to listen deeply and
translate what looks like a heapof mess or chaos into into
solutions, and how to do thatquickly.
Michael Hartmann (04:01):
So those two things, empathy engine, I hadn't
heard that one.
I like that.
Ahmad Moore (04:04):
Yeah, it definitely gave me an empathy engine.
Because you have to listen.
You have to listen deeply,right?
You have to listen to what'sreally being said versus what's
being said.
You have to read between thelines, if you will right.
Sometimes what people try toexplain is the issue ends up not
really being the root of theissue.
So, having a little bit ofempathy and listening.
(04:26):
There is definitely somethingthat still applies to what I
learned at the help desk.
Michael Hartmann (04:31):
Yeah, I was smiling because, naomi, I think
you've told us that you'vedescribed to your family what
you do as IT for marketing.
Naomi Liu (04:40):
Yeah, IT for marketing.
That literally is the closest,or even just anybody, right?
It's not just family, it's alsofriends and people that you
just come across and go.
What do you do?
Word marketing in marketingoperations sometimes, because it
(05:08):
tends to pigeonhole us a bit,especially as you get more deep
within an organization.
A lot of the things that youend up doing are not just for
marketing either.
They may be tangentiallyrelated revenue driving goals,
but sometimes you can also do alot of stuff for, you know, the
(05:30):
HR team, the finance team,employee onboarding, uh it
security notifications, um, youknow, like all of those back
office functions as well salesright, all those back office
functions as well.
Um, so I's on one hand yes, Iwould say IT for marketing is a
(05:50):
bit easier for people who arenot in the space to kind of
digest and understand that it ismore of a technical role than
marketing, traditional marketing.
But I do think sometimes itdoes pigeonhole us a little bit.
Michael Hartmann (06:02):
Yeah, I would agree yeah.
Ahmad Moore (06:05):
I think that's a great way to put it.
Yeah, I think it's more for theIT, for marketing or the way I
said, just IT with betterbranding.
I think that's just a mucheasier explanation for someone
who's not in it.
Naomi Liu (06:16):
I like that.
I'm going to steal that.
I'm going to steal that.
Now I'm IT for the wholecompany with better branding,
with better branding, right yeah, it for the whole company with
better branding.
Michael Hartmann (06:26):
Yeah, that's funny.
Naomi Liu (06:27):
That's great.
Ahmad Moore (06:28):
Just a quick point for what you said, naomi, too.
I just recall being on the helpdesk and I'd get tickets like an
email isn't syncing right orthis list isn't pulling right,
and you mentioned not liking themarketing sort of tagline on
there because it's so much morethan that.
So when I got those tickets thatI would have to handle, I'd dig
(06:50):
in and I'd realize that it'sreally not just a tech issue or
a marketing issue or an issue asthey described it, but it was
actually maybe a processbreakdown, right.
So this kind of trained me tosee kind of beyond what the
symptom is and really fix whatthe root issue is.
(07:11):
So when it comes to beingdefined as marketing operations,
it really goes way beyond thatright.
So the help desk it kind offorced me to speak in more of a,
also more in human languagethan jargon, because there are
enough buzzwords in marketingops that we can use all day long
.
But I think a skill that everymops pro needs when you're
(07:34):
sitting between sales andmarketing and it and success and
all the different departments,is being able to speak human, if
you will, right Outside ofjargon, so translator.
Yep exactly.
Michael Hartmann (07:46):
Yeah, no, I think one of the things that you
said that you really leanedinto is listening and listening
closely, and I think a lot ofpeople don't do that or discount
the importance of that.
And I'm curious, knowing whatlittle I know about sales,
(08:07):
because your next stop then wasin account management at an
agency.
Right, yeah, big change.
So I'd love to like like what'sthe driver behind that?
But I'm curious, like all thebest salespeople I've dealt with
are actually really good.
They do two things really wellthey listen really well and they
ask really good questions.
And so I'm kind of like is thatsomething that you think you
(08:27):
took from your help desk roleand that those things you talk
about empathy engine andlistening and took that and
applied that to the accountmanagement role?
Ahmad Moore (08:38):
Absolutely yeah, I always I like to say I went from
fixing tech to fixing peopleRight, but no, but honestly.
Honestly, I wanted to say Iwent from fixing tech to fixing
people right, but no, buthonestly, I think this
transition was because I wantedto understand the business side,
right.
I wanted to understand strategy, I wanted to understand clients
, I wanted to understand theoutcomes that they were looking
(09:01):
for, outcomes that they werelooking for, and what I quickly
realized is that even in allthat, in all that desire to me
wanting to figure that out, Ikind of missed getting my hands
dirty a little bit as well.
So what I mean by that is I wasthe account manager that
couldn't stop checking thebackend of the email platform,
(09:22):
right.
I was that strategist whowanted to go into the code or
the HTML or JSON and see whatwas going on.
So, yeah, I think that itch tobe behind the screen or the help
desk with a more technicalperson really never went away.
But what the job moving intothat more client facing role at
(09:46):
the agency is what it gave me,um was a front row seat to how
clients think right, and and howto translate the marketing
objectives into some of thosemore like actionable, outcome
driven actions.
Right, so cause.
It taught me to navigate thatambiguity and sharpen my ability
(10:06):
to kind of like reverseengineer the outcomes that were
needed.
And it was coming from a placewhere I'm thinking of the
mindset of what the client, howthe client is thinking or how
they're approaching it.
The client may not be thinkingof some of the steps that were
involved in getting to thatoutcome, but I'm listening to
them and I know the results thatthey want to get.
(10:28):
So I'm coming with a fewdifferent perspectives now that
I've had the agencyclient-facing portion of it, but
I still really enjoy sort ofyou know, getting into the back
end and understanding what'sgoing on as well.
Michael Hartmann (10:42):
So I learned both of those things from that
client, so you were able to takesome of that listening and be
able to go understand what theclient was actually asking for,
regardless of what words theywere using right, and then
translate it into.
This is how you practically,tactically, can deliver on those
or guide them in a differentway.
(11:03):
Is that kind of what you'retalking about?
Ahmad Moore (11:13):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
It allowed me to be able to, Iguess, simplify the conversation
without getting too technical,if you will the part that I
liked but also understandingthat the client wanted to
understand how to resolve orcome to a certain outcome, but
without bogging them down withthe technical side that a lot of
people would say that's toomuch for me, that doesn't excite
(11:33):
me, that's not boring.
How do we get to the end result?
Right?
So how do you deal with aclient?
How do you speak to the clientdifferently?
How do you come from theirperspective while still getting
the technical things done andtranslating that in a way that
they can, step by step, clearlysee how this is going to happen?
Michael Hartmann (11:52):
That makes sense.
Yeah, so you were missing someof the hands on though you said.
But then your next role or setof roles actually, I guess were
in more like BDR, sales andsales management, leadership
type roles, including atstartups.
Now I'm curious, like what ledyou to down that path?
(12:14):
Right, it seems like a stepaway from that hands-on kind of
stuff.
Ahmad Moore (12:19):
Yeah, yeah, all right.
So I definitely took the scenicroute and the reason that came
about and how that came aboutwas working with a startup.
And I was working with astartup you can definitely wear
a lot of different hats,regardless of what your title is
.
You kind of step into whateverneeds to be done, whatever needs
(12:57):
to get accomplished to continueto build and grow the company.
So when I took this role, Iunderstood that that was going
to be part of what we did in thestartup.
So I got to sell things Sure,that was great.
But I also got to build theprocesses from scratch.
I got to optimize CRMs from anew instance right From scratch.
(13:21):
Um, I got to connect marketingrevenue like in real time.
So when I think, when you're onthe front lines talking to
customers daily, um, what you dois you stop theorizing what
works and you start knowing whatworks Right.
So I got addicted to kind ofwatching how pipelines actually
(13:42):
form Right and that experiencehas me got me obsessed with
alignment.
Because when, when, whenmarketing begins, you know, when
marketing is in a place wherethey're handing off junk to
sales, then you know salessuffer.
So it's that tension rightthere that became sort of my
playground and now really hasbecome sort of the mission
(14:02):
behind the agency, is like thatsales and marketing alignment,
or that sales and marketing andsuccess alignment, that
cross-departmental alignment.
I've seen so much misalignmentin those roles that I've really
just become focused and honed inon what are the best ways that
we can get these teams alignedon the same page, having those
(14:24):
meetings that sometimes want tobe canceled but I think I feel
are necessary to have for thatcommunication, aside from the
technical integrations andconnections, also sort of those
soft skills in talking to thesales operations person right,
or talking to the success personoperation, so, yeah, so getting
(14:44):
into those success personoperation, so, um, yeah, so
getting into those roles, thequestion being like how, how did
it?
How did that come about?
Or how was that, how was thatplay into where I, how I see
things now?
Um, it had a lot to do with thealignment and a lot to do with,
um, building our processes froma hands-off perspective.
(15:06):
But again, that technical sideof me was still there, so I
still had that in the back of mymind.
Michael Hartmann (15:11):
So on the surface it sounds like you were
still stepping away from kind ofan operations-type role, but in
practicality it was somethingdifferent.
Just, I'm curious you know someof the what you just described,
right, I love the idea ofgetting direct feedback from
customers, like I encourageanybody who's listening in an
(15:32):
ops role, like, spend time withyour sales team, try to listen
in and call sick of stuff.
I think it's really reallyvaluable.
But you know, it sounds likeyou also had to deal with
probably some challengingconversations with other teams,
right, like, did you?
Did you think your experiencedealing with you know, in the
help desk role or others, whereyou had, like you're probably
(15:54):
dealing with people who wereupset or frustrated or feeling
under pressure, right, and theyweren't maybe at their best, but
you had to deal with thosekinds of conversations in a
professional way, right?
Did that come in handy as youstarted getting into these roles
where you're interacting withother teams that maybe weren't
(16:14):
aligned on the same page, andhow did that come about?
How did you apply that?
Ahmad Moore (16:21):
Yeah, that definitely was a big part of
learning to think a little bitdifferently or take a different
approach.
When coming from a marketingops perspective, the sales roles
definitely stick out, theclient facing roles stick out,
and I'll just bring up the salesroles that I had specifically
(16:42):
because I did have theopportunity to kind of build a
sales team from scratch but thenalso be that salesperson that
was at trade shows, that wasselling, that was talking to
people directly, and I thinkmost marketing folks they don't
carry a quota, so to speak.
Right, and that shows and whatI mean by that is that I
(17:03):
approach ops like a revenueoperator and not so much a
campaign builder.
Right, like a revenue operatorand not so much a campaign
builder.
Right, if it doesn't shortenthe sales cycle, if it doesn't
speed up lead flow, if itdoesn't improve attribution,
then it's noise right.
And that's kind of what salestaught me.
It taught me to measuremarketing not by activity but by
(17:26):
impact.
And at the end of the day, whenyou're holding a quota and
you're a salesperson and allyou're thinking about is what
impact it's going to make andwhat impact did it make on the
revenue, because when you're insales, nobody really cares how
pretty the email was Right.
They want to.
Taught me to kind of see beyondthe dashboards and keep my
(17:51):
focus on whether or not it movedrevenue and did it make an
impact on revenue.
Community and Slack this weekwas about do we see the
marketing ops roles beingswallowed or integrated up into
(18:16):
the RevOps roles?
And to a certain extent, I dosee that and it does make sense
to me and that is my perspective.
A lot of times I'm coming froma revenue impact perspective.
So, yeah, I mean I think that'swhat that's what those roles
taught me or put me in themindset of.
Now that I come, I'm still inmarketing ops.
I'm still, you know, run anagency that is marketing ops,
(18:39):
but we're very focused onrevenue and the way we approach
that.
We're very focused on impact.
Michael Hartmann (18:48):
That's interesting.
Yeah, interesting do you.
I know your role has expanded.
You have other stuff.
Has that helped you?
How do you handle those kindsof conversations with other
businesses or other teams?
Naomi Liu (19:05):
I think that and I kind of want to go back to
something that you said earlierabout having responsibility in
the BDR and sales piece right, Ithink a lot of the challenges
that I've dealt with in mycareer have come about with lack
of awareness around what theteams actually even do, right,
(19:25):
and so I think when you caneducate and provide context,
because a lot of stuff is aboutcontext too.
provide context around what theteam is actually doing.
How is it helping you?
What are the things, like youhad mentioned, ahmad, around?
Is it shortening the salescycle?
Is it adding to attribution?
I think those are all thingsthat help with that dialogue and
that engagement around.
This is what the operationsteam does and this is how we
help you to attribution.
I think those are all thingsthat help with that dialogue and
(19:48):
that engagement around.
You know, this is what the thisis what the operations team
does and this is how we help you, and you know we're here to
help you, not hinder you,although sometimes I think when
I write sternly worded emails topeople about you know, gdpr and
Castle, you can't actually dothat.
That sometimes can be a bit ofa challenge too.
Michael Hartmann (20:08):
Damn it.
I can't imagine that comingfrom you.
Naomi Liu (20:12):
Sternly worded email.
I do think that alignmentbetween you know, a lot of
people talk about alignmentbetween sales and marketing
right, but it's not until youactively manage an inside sales
or a BDR team which I amcurrently doing now for two plus
years uh that you really, youknow are are, uh, aligning
(20:37):
yourself with sales and, um,really have the ability to see
and peek under the hood as towhat are their challenges where,
what are the things that arereally helping them to move the
needle and what are the things,especially when someone can only
make, for example, x number ofcalls in a day and there's more
(21:00):
than X number of leads that arecoming in, how do you help them
to prioritize that?
And then that's when theoperation side really kicks in.
And then that's when theoperations side really kicks in,
because then you're reallyanalyzing the data and seeing,
like, okay, for every X numberof leads that come in from the
source, they're creating thismany opportunities.
So this is what they should bereally focused on and giving
(21:21):
them.
So they're not just goingthrough a call list dialing for
dollars.
They're really focusing onbeing strategic, on what they
can do, and everything else canbe sent into an email follow-up
or whatever right, especially ifthey're very heavily
commission-based.
Michael Hartmann (21:35):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think understanding the
incentives that drive behaviorfor a lot of these people is
really valuable.
And if you don't understand, Ithink a lot of people who are
listening might go like but mysales team is a pain to work
with, right, they're just,they're lazy or whatever.
(21:56):
But I would tell them, like ifyou haven't been in those shoes
and understand, like they're,like how they get compensated
makes a big difference on howthey behave.
And you mentioned thecommission, right, I've I've
worked with sales teams, somethat were on commission and some
that weren't right and, yeah,you know these head tips like
(22:18):
what, yeah, I was the same way.
Like what they don't havecommission, um, uh, anyway, but
it like.
But it was like it waseye-opening for me, like I,
because I had been approachingthat the team this is a good
example like the team that Ifound out after the fact that I
was trying to get their behaviorto change and I assumed that
they were commission-based, Iwas like this is going to help
(22:39):
you make more money.
Basically is what I was.
Like I was trying to find waysto get them to change their
behavior based on that.
When I found out, like, butthey were I, I felt like I was
hitting my head against the wall.
And when I, when I finallyasked someone like how are they
compensated, and realized theyweren't, that wasn't that the
motivator for them, like itdidn't really matter.
It's like, oh, I need to changemy tactic on how I'm
approaching them Right, and soit's.
(23:01):
It's really fascinating.
Naomi Liu (23:03):
Right, yeah, and especially if you know, if you
are trying to make effectivecalls, right, you want to do a
ton of research to be able to.
You don't just want to pick upthe phone and not be able to
answer basic, even basic bandquestions, for example.
Right, like, you want to beable to understand the business
and what are their potentialchallenges and what vertical
(23:25):
they serve, serve and so a lotof that and just understanding,
like a that takes up time to howdo we then enrich that
information to get it to thesepeople before they even make
that call?
You know, there's small thingslike that that I wouldn't
necessarily.
There's other examples, butthere's small things that I
(23:45):
wouldn't necessarily haveencountered or thought about in
advance and proactively, likedone until I started managing a
BDR team and then realizing,okay, how do I shorten the
amount of like research and busywork they have to do so that
they can pick up the phone andmake an effective call and be
confident going into it, knowingthat they know who to talk to
(24:07):
and that they know objectionhandling?
How do they bypass, likepricing questions?
You know all of this, all ofthat stuff, yeah.
Ahmad Moore (24:16):
In addition, just in addition to that, naomi is
like and that's so important toknow to actually experience,
right, and to actually, like yousaid, you're managing a BDR
team right now and I had thatexperience as well being a BDR,
leading a BDR team, building asales team.
Having that experience to knowwhat the incentives and what's
(24:38):
driving them, like you said,michael, is so important as well
.
And, like what we, what we alsodo currently is like the
structure and the architectureof how everything is set up,
based on the way they're sellingor based on what their
incentives are, because I'veworked on projects where that
wasn't fully understood, right,that sales process wasn't fully
(25:01):
understood, how it happened, andthey you know the client or you
know the person I was workingwith wanted something built out
and without really understandingthe sales process and even
questioning if this is the rightprocess or the way to build it,
you can begin building and thenget yourself tangled up and you
have this whole process thatyou've now built out on the back
(25:24):
end, which really doesn't matchto the next steps or whatever
that exit criteria is to moveinto the next deal stage.
And now you have to go back anddouble back on your work and
redo things.
So I've become very, veryadamant about like having those
discovery calls or having thosealignment meetings before we get
(25:45):
into the back end and reallystart fixing or building out
from scratch or putting thatarchitecture together to make
sure that things flow correctly.
And as soon as you were talking,naomi, that kind of came to my
mind because I was like, yes, Ideal with that often.
I understand now, this may bewhat they think they want, but
(26:07):
based on the sales process andthe steps and the deal stages
and the journeys that you havein place, we now need to
architect it a certain way.
So, yeah, knowing both sides ofit is very important.
Michael Hartmann (26:21):
Well, I think it helps you I go back to this
all the time right, it helps youunderstand is it right or wrong
to do something or not.
It helps you understand is itright or wrong to do something
or not.
It's like, what are thetradeoffs between different
alternatives?
Because very, very unusually inlife are there very clear like
this is the right thing to doright.
And when you get into complexorganizations, that quickly
(26:44):
becomes a choice about tradeoffs, and so I think that comes into
play with technology or processor whatever.
So, okay, so you were at thesestartups, you were kind of
playing a number of roles andthen you pivoted or kind of came
back into marketing automation,marketing operations roles Like
(27:06):
what was the driver behind thattransition?
Ahmad Moore (27:10):
Yeah, like I mentioned, even in the roles
that I kind of fell into,because you know, of wearing
different hats, being at thestartups and them not being
necessarily intentional moves,those were just moves that, hey,
things need to get done.
We're building something here.
That's where you know we needto wear these different hats.
Let's just do it.
(27:30):
Wear these different hats,let's just do it that.
Like I said, that itch neverleft to where I was, like I was
always wanting to be in the backend and seeing how things were
built and seeing you know whatwas going on.
So it's like, have you everwalked into a room and then
instantly started fixing it?
Right?
That's kind of like how I feltwhen, or how I feel currently,
(27:51):
when I see a broken tech stack,right, I find myself
volunteering.
When I find myself volunteeringto clean up like lead routing
logic at 10 pm or you know,doing something that where I
said you know, waking up in themiddle of the night worrying
about did that email go to theright people?
Michael Hartmann (28:11):
right, naomi, exactly.
Or picking up a project andsaying hey.
Ahmad Moore (28:12):
I'll just do this, worrying about did that email go
to the right people, rightNaomi, exactly, exactly.
Or picking up a project andsaying, hey, I'll just do this.
You know, I'll just do this forfun.
You know, I got some time thisweekend I can work on that, you
know.
I knew then that that's, youknow, marketing ops was where I
wanted to be, and it wasn't justsomething that I felt I was
good at, I felt it was somethingthat I needed to do.
(28:33):
Right, this is what I enjoy todo.
I like to do this, I need to dothis, and it's the clarity in
knowing what I wanted to do thatreally made every career move
or every step after that muchmore intentional and much more
clear for me, because I knewwhat I wanted to do.
(28:54):
So every step had a little bitmore purpose in it.
I knew that I wanted to be inthis type of role.
I knew what I wanted to fix andI realized that I got more
satisfaction from optimizingworkflows and closing deals.
That was clear for me.
I didn't want to manage theprocess, I wanted to master it
(29:18):
right.
I wanted to be a process master.
What's the best process?
How can we make this processbetter.
How can we improve efficiencyhere?
And that's what drove me andthat's what I thought about
constantly and that's what Iknew that I had a passion to do.
So that's really when Irealized, like MarTech marketing
ops, this is kind of the zone Iwant to be in, this is the flow
I want to be in.
How can I grow from here?
(29:39):
And from that point on, it madeit clear on which direction I
was at it.
Michael Hartmann (29:44):
Yeah, but I'm sure there was a lot of pressure
, like you had moved into kindof sales, sales leadership, that
like that's where you wouldcontinue to go.
Like did you feel a lot ofpressure to to go through that?
Or how did you like it feelslike there's a little bit of
tension, right?
The sort of easy path might'vebeen to continue to pursue sales
and sales leadership, versustaking a kind of a big step in a
(30:07):
different direction.
Like how did you go throughthat thought process?
Ahmad Moore (30:14):
That one.
That was that's a greatquestion, because that was that
was a really hard one for me todeal with in terms of like
taking, taking your traditional,like typical career path and
saying, hey, I'm going to go,this is the next step and this
is the next step.
So I think for a while I triedto chase that, but I stopped
(30:37):
chasing that at one point.
Right, I stopped chasing titlesand what I started really to
chase was more of mastery.
Right, meaning, every time Izigged instead of zagged, right,
I picked up a new layer or anew skill from the sales role to
the marketing role, to the opsroles, to strategy roles, and I
(30:57):
think it's that cross-functionalview is what makes me dangerous
.
Now, right, it's like myjourney has been like a mixtape
versus a resume.
Michael Hartmann (31:09):
Right, my journey has been all over the
place A mixtape.
Half our listeners have no ideawhat you're talking about.
Ahmad Moore (31:16):
So my age, but I'm just.
Michael Hartmann (31:17):
you know, I should have said playlist or
something like that, but but,but it's really better because
it's like they took effort tomake a mixtape.
Come on.
Ahmad Moore (31:26):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, but it was a hard.
It was to answer your question.
It wasn't an easy path.
I think it was one where Itried on roles that
traditionally didn't fit Right,but at the same time I feel like
that was the best educationthat I could get, and I wasn't
(31:50):
necessarily climbing the ladder,so to speak.
And I wasn't necessarilyclimbing the ladder, so to speak
, but I was kind of crafting myown, my own way or my own path,
(32:17):
and it was definitelyuncomfortable.
It wasn't a place where I thinkyou know you learn to get into
those uncomfortable places andbe OK with that.
You learn to stay curious,because staying curious is
what's going to help you tolearn.
I think you get comfortable withthose moops moments, the
marketing ops oops moments,which I love that channel and
the marketing ops Slackcommunity, because people come
and share their mistakes, andit's not that I like to see
people making mistakes, it'sjust that I like to see that you
know you made that mistake orsomeone made that mistake.
(32:39):
That means you're growing, thatmeans you're learning.
That means the next time youcome and have to deal with the
same, the same issue, you have areference of a mistake that you
may have made that you don'twant to make again, but now you
have a different way to approachit, or you know to avoid this,
and those are some nuances thatI think you can't.
That just comes with experience, right.
(33:00):
That just comes with bumpingyour head.
That just comes with you knowtaking chances and being okay
with failing fast, if you will,and learning.
So, while it was difficult andwhile it wasn't your typical
career path, um, I'm lookingback now.
I'm I'm I'm happy that I didtake a chance and take those
roles that I wasn't comfortablewith with the startups, with the
(33:21):
sales, with the it help desk,and then finally finding you
know where, if you want to callit, my sweet spot or where my
passion is yeah, yeah, thatmakes sense.
Michael Hartmann (33:33):
I suspect that getting to that let's tell
people like one of the mostdifficult times in in life is
when you are facing a decisionabout something.
Or maybe a better example islike when you're trying to make
a decision about something thatfeels unnatural, or you're
waiting for, say, a test resultfrom a doctor or something right
, and then like that, that thattime in between realizing you
(33:54):
have to make that decision andthen making this decision is
probably the hardest part.
Like to me, whenever I'vegotten, like making the decision
so, in your case, right, makinga decision like I really want
to shift my focus for my careerto be ops to.
You know, um, probably made iteasier once you made the
decision right, but it wasprobably not.
It was agonizing up until thatpoint.
Ahmad Moore (34:15):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, it, agonizing for sure, up until
that point, right, um, to yourpoint, um, it, it, it's not, for
you have to have some somethick skin sometimes, right,
because you have to be able tohear, you know, you have to be
able to get through thosefeelings where you may doubt
(34:36):
yourself, right, or you maythink is this the right path,
that I'm taking, or I'm just notgoing to get this, I'm just not
going to learn this.
So you have to keep going, youhave to keep on trying things,
you have to stay curious.
And you know I'll mention thisalso because my daughter just
graduated from Penn State.
So I have to shout out mydaughter and she got her degree.
(34:59):
And I did not get my my collegedegree, right, I did go to
college.
But one thing I know about youknow, having a college degree
that it'll definitely open updoors for you, right, but it's
the results that keep thosedoors open.
Definitely open up doors foryou, right, but it's the results
that keep those doors open,right.
(35:21):
And I learned that you canstill learn if you don't have
your college degree.
Because what I did is I startedto lean into certifications, I
started leaning into heavilyself-education.
I started leaning into, mostimportantly, execution.
So I went ahead and I did get aproject management
certification from Stanford.
That was for agile methodology,being a scrum master and that
(35:44):
really gave me a lot ofstructure in terms of how to run
a project, how to do thingsfrom a very organized and
structured way, and you get thatfrom your degree.
But I think my real educationcame from having to build a
system under pressure right, orhaving to learn something on the
fly or, you know, making thatmistake but taking the attitude
(36:07):
of hey, I'm never going to makethis mistake again because I
have to prove myself.
So I was always in like proveit mode, if you will, and I
think that mindset helped mebecause I have to prove myself.
So I was always in like proveit mode, if you will, and I
think that mindset helped mebecause I couldn't hide behind
credentials.
I couldn't hide behind that.
I had to deliver and I had todeliver consistently.
So it helped.
Michael Hartmann (36:24):
Sounds like you turned it into a
motivational kind of element foryou, as opposed to something
that could be seen as like a lotof people might go like oh, I
just like I guess I'm screwed,right yeah.
Ahmad Moore (36:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I'm not by all
means, like I said, I bragged onmy daughter a little bit like
get your, get your degree, youknow.
If you have that opportunity,go ahead, get the contract.
I'm not, I'm not knocking that,but if you for whatever case,
whatever the case may be, if youdon't or you can't or whatever
the case, don't let that limityou Like, continue to you know,
(36:57):
continue to know that you canself-educate, you can get
certifications, you can hone inon what you want to do and, you
know, become a master of that bylearning.
Especially nowadays, there's somany other avenues that you can
take to get to that place ofyou know mastery, in whatever
field it is you want to be in.
Michael Hartmann (37:15):
Totally agree.
I'm curious did that changeyour view about how you like
what you did in terms ofrequirements for hiring people?
I don't know, naomi, if you'vedone this, but, like I don't
know, five plus years ago, whenI started posting jobs to hire
people, the default would berequires a college degree.
(37:37):
I started striking that, or atleast modifying like college
degree or equivalent experienceor something to that effect,
because I felt like it wasleaving people out who, maybe,
due to whatever circumstances orwhatever.
Do you think that that's becomeless of an issue or do you
still feel like some of that'suh, holding in a?
I'm curious, naomi, if you'vechanged your hiring process for
(37:59):
that?
Naomi Liu (38:01):
Um, I mean, I have.
I guess I have two commentsabout that.
Like some of the brightest andmost talented and, uh, smartest
people I've ever worked with notpeople that have reported to me
, but just people that I'veworked with as colleagues in
organizations have not hadcollege degrees right.
They've just been people thathave been extremely talented and
(38:23):
interested in the things thatthey are good at and enjoy, and
I've just really doubled downdeep into that In terms of being
able to hire for roles on myteam at this moment, right now
what is even a headcount, to behonest but it's definitely
something.
(38:43):
I think that, going forward, itwould be something that I would
not necessarily, like youmentioned, take as big of a
stock into, because I think alot of it depends on the
individual and their ability andpotential experience.
It's not necessarily somethingthat I would put as much weight
(39:04):
into at the moment.
Michael Hartmann (39:08):
Amad, what's your thought on that?
Ahmad Moore (39:10):
I think I have two ways of looking at that.
Um, the first one, first thing,is I don't.
I don't think the, the way thatI've started to hire, has
changed in terms of do I stillput you know degree desired on
(39:33):
the, on the, on the jobdescription or certain certain
skills?
That would be ideal.
Maybe I tweaked a little bityou know I don't get too
specific into changing that jobdescription but it's absolutely
changed my my view and myperspective on on whether you
(39:55):
have that or not, Because Ithink someone who has that drive
and that motivation, even ifthey don't have that degree, is
still going to apply for thatposition and then try to make
their case with the experiencethat they have or what have you.
And I know I've done thatpersonally and I say that coming
from a personal place.
It's like I've gottendiscouraged a lot of times when
(40:17):
I've seen a minimum bachelordegree needed in X, Y and Z, and
I would let that in thebeginning, turn me away
immediately, right, Until I gotto a point one time where I was
just like you know what.
I have the experience, I havethe skillset.
I know it says bachelor degreerequired.
I'm still going to put myresume in and apply for this and
(40:40):
I would say, more times thannot, I ended up getting the
interview and I ended up gettingthe position and the role based
on proving to them that I hadthe experience, that I had the
knowledge, that I didn'tnecessarily take the traditional
way, just being upfront withthem.
You know this is you know, Idon't have the bachelor's degree
that you say, but I have fiveyears experience in this.
(41:03):
I have a certification inHubSpot, I have a certification
in Marketo, this and that, andthat you know that results
driven attitude really helped.
And so, going back to my firstpoint, the reason why I said I
haven't really changed the jobdescription, so to speak, is I
think someone who has that driveand who has that motivation
(41:27):
will drive past that seeing thatjob description.
So I'm not going to water downmy description, but the ones
that want to make it through, mymindset is they're going to,
they're going to, they're goingto push for this anyway, they're
going to have that drive andthey're going to say yeah, so,
yeah, so I definitely.
I guess my mindset is differentin terms of I will take every
(41:47):
candidate, whether they havethat full description, and I see
this as a disclaimer.
Sometimes a lot on roles beingput out there now like they'll
have a little blurb that says,hey, even if you don't have all
the skills that you, you know,you think still apply.
So I'm kind of right there.
That's me.
I would have that blurb on myjob description.
Michael Hartmann (42:06):
So we're getting kind of let's wrap up
here.
So I know that you founded youragency.
I think, if I understand right,like part of that, the driver
for that was a recent layoff, soyou were laid off from a
company and that led to that.
Curiously, what led you to dothat?
And then, kind of, what aresome of the big things you're
seeing in the marketplace now,maybe across technology, ai,
(42:27):
whatever?
And then we can wrap up.
Ahmad Moore (42:30):
Okay, yeah, for sure.
Um, yeah, recently laid off.
Um, you know, I think that wasthe push that I didn't know I
needed.
Right, the layoffs stung.
Layoffs always sting, but butthe freedom that you get from it
, that that definitely hitsdifferently.
Um, so what I'm seeing right nowis like a major, you know, a
(42:53):
major hubspot wave, if you will.
And this may just be from myown perspective, because when I
first started the agency I wasso, like, deep and heavy into
Marketo that my thinking was,hey, we're going to start this
agency and the majority of workwe're going to have is probably
Marketo work.
But what I'm seeing is that,like mid-market companies, they
(43:13):
want enterprise automation andthey don't want that enterprise
bloat.
So that's kind of where oursweet spot is.
Like I'm building the agencythat I wish I had when I was
in-house, right, so a faster,more strategic, built for
results.
And I'm just seeing more andmore clients on board wanting to
(43:35):
use HubSpot for that.
Not a knock on Marketo at all.
I still love Marketo there's somuch you can do in it but I
think there's a huge gap foragencies that can understand
both strategy and systems, andclients, I think, want a partner
who can make their revenueengine a lot smoother, faster,
(43:55):
smarter, and I think they can dothat and scale that with
HubSpot.
So that's kind of what thelayoff did for me.
It kind of pushed me into hey,we have to make this happen at
this point.
Right, let's go ahead.
Because the agency I had donethe formation of it about a year
and a half ago, but I would sayit's only been about six months
since we've really beenonboarding clients at a steady
(44:17):
rate.
So I think the second part toyour question is like what are
some of the tech shifts andthings that are happening right
now that I'm excited about?
Well, obviously, ai.
Right, ai to me is like the newintern, you know, cheap, fast
and needs a lot of oversight, ifyou will.
But, but seriously, I'm, I'm,I'm, I'm using AI to the point
(44:40):
where it's really changing theway we work, from content
operations to campaign QA,things like that.
Like what excites me so muchabout AI is the strategic
heartbeat of go-to marketing.
I think the folks who masterthe tools, the data, who master
(45:01):
orchestration, they're about tobecome the most valuable players
in the room and we'reautomating everything except
critical thinking.
Right, and that's where Mops isgoing to thrive right.
The more machines handle therepeatable tasks, the more we
get to lead strategy andunderstand strategy and build
(45:23):
different skills that we can nowfocus on, because we're not
bogged down with these othersort of repeatable things that
we can have AI do for us.
Michael Hartmann (45:32):
So, yeah, yeah , I'm bullish on all that as
well, ahmad, this has been a funconversation.
Thanks for sharing.
I think we touched on somestuff that maybe a lot of people
wouldn't be comfortable talkingabout, so I appreciate that
your transparency, and that iffolks want to learn more about
you or what you've got going on,what's the best way for them to
do that?
Ahmad Moore (45:59):
Oh yeah, you can connect with me on LinkedIn,
ahmad J Moore, or you can headover to PressureMarketingcom.
You can check out the websiteand the services.
And then, of course, I'm a MopsPro community member.
So if you're on the Mops Procommunity and you need to find
your footing, believe me, I'vebeen there, so we can connect
there as well.
I think that community is howwe all win, so we'd love to
connect with whoever wants toconnect.
Michael Hartmann (46:20):
Terrific Well.
Again, thank you, Ahmad, forsharing Naomi, as always.
Thank you for being a part ofthis.
I always enjoy it, Thank you.
Thank you, Naomi, yeah.
Naomi Liu (46:29):
Thanks, michael Thanks.
Michael Hartmann (46:30):
Naomi.
Thanks to all of our audiencefor continuing to support us as
always.
If you have suggestions forguests or topics, or want to be
a guest, reach out to Naomi,mike or me and we'd be happy to
chat with you about it.
Until next time, bye everybody,Bye everyone.
Bye.
Hello and welcome to another episode of
OpsCast brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
the MoPros out there.
I'm your host, michael Hartman,back again joined by my co-host
, nami Liu.
Hello.
Naomi Liu (00:13):
It's been a while.
It's been a little.
I know it has been.
I'm glad we got this to sync upand work.
Michael Hartmann (00:19):
I am always happy to have you on these calls
.
I like to hear that.
Yeah, well, people must gettired of hearing my voice, so
they need to hear other voices.
Anyway, so, joining us today totalk about his career
trajectory and how following hispassion shaped his career is
Ahmad Moore.
(00:39):
Ahmad is the founder ofPressure Marketing, a marketing
operations slash automationagency.
He has over 10 years ofexperience in marketing
operations and he specializes inaligning sales and marketing
teams through strategicautomation, process optimization
and powerful tech integrations.
Prior to founding his agency,he held multiple leadership and
line roles in marketingautomation and operations.
(01:01):
He also has experience in salesand business development in
multiple organizations and hestarted his career in an IT help
desk role.
So, ahmad, thanks for joiningus today.
Ahmad Moore (01:12):
Thanks, michael, happy to be here.
Hey, Naomi, how are you doing?
Naomi Liu (01:17):
I'm good.
How are you?
Ahmad Moore (01:18):
Doing great Thanks.
Michael Hartmann (01:20):
Thanks for having me Good, and we're
scattered all across thecontinent here.
So well, let's get this started.
So, ahmad, I wanted to say thatyour path to marketing
operations is unusual which itis, but it seems to be more the
norm than the exception for manypeople we've talked to.
(01:42):
So, yeah, let's walk throughyour career and I would love for
you to share along the way thelessons you learned kind of each
of the different stops and howit helped you kind of get to
where you are today.
But let's think, like one ofthe things that's unusual is
that you started in IT help deskrole.
So what were, what were some ofthe things you did on a regular
basis then, or lessons that youlearned then that you apply
(02:06):
today or have applied along theway throughout different parts
of your career and I know wemight hit some of those as we
get into it later in thediscussion.
Ahmad Moore (02:16):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree that it's you
can call it a differenttrajectory, but it does seem to
be more common in common, as Ihear people who are in ops now.
But, funny enough, starting atthe IT help desk role, I tell
people marketing ops is just ITwith better branding, and you
(02:39):
may or may not agree with thatdefinition, but sometimes that's
the easiest answer to give toexplain to someone what we do in
marketing ops.
So when I was on the IT helpdesk I was kind of like the guy
making sure systems talk to eachother and users had what they
needed and things didn't breakin the middle of a launch.
(03:02):
So, if anything, any of thosethings sound familiar.
That is very, I think, commonto what we do in our marketing
operations role.
So I think what the IT helpdesk roles did is give me a
really good foundation for theway databases work.
I did a lot of data hygiene butreally it gave me two
(03:24):
superpowers.
I like to say right.
So it gave me one.
It gave me a sixth sense formessy data.
Right, so I can smell dirty CRMfields through a Zoom screen.
Right, when I see dirty data, Iknow it pretty quickly.
And the second superpower kindof gave me was what I like to
(03:45):
call like an empathy engine,Right?
So what that means is I learnedhow to listen deeply and
translate what looks like a heapof mess or chaos into into
solutions, and how to do thatquickly.
Michael Hartmann (04:01):
So those two things, empathy engine, I hadn't
heard that one.
I like that.
Ahmad Moore (04:04):
Yeah, it definitely gave me an empathy engine.
Because you have to listen.
You have to listen deeply,right?
You have to listen to what'sreally being said versus what's
being said.
You have to read between thelines, if you will right.
Sometimes what people try toexplain is the issue ends up not
really being the root of theissue.
So, having a little bit ofempathy and listening.
(04:26):
There is definitely somethingthat still applies to what I
learned at the help desk.
Michael Hartmann (04:31):
Yeah, I was smiling because, naomi, I think
you've told us that you'vedescribed to your family what
you do as IT for marketing.
Naomi Liu (04:40):
Yeah, IT for marketing.
That literally is the closest,or even just anybody, right?
It's not just family, it's alsofriends and people that you
just come across and go.
What do you do?
Word marketing in marketingoperations sometimes, because it
(05:08):
tends to pigeonhole us a bit,especially as you get more deep
within an organization.
A lot of the things that youend up doing are not just for
marketing either.
They may be tangentiallyrelated revenue driving goals,
but sometimes you can also do alot of stuff for, you know, the
(05:30):
HR team, the finance team,employee onboarding, uh it
security notifications, um, youknow, like all of those back
office functions as well salesright, all those back office
functions as well.
Um, so I's on one hand yes, Iwould say IT for marketing is a
(05:50):
bit easier for people who arenot in the space to kind of
digest and understand that it ismore of a technical role than
marketing, traditional marketing.
But I do think sometimes itdoes pigeonhole us a little bit.
Michael Hartmann (06:02):
Yeah, I would agree yeah.
Ahmad Moore (06:05):
I think that's a great way to put it.
Yeah, I think it's more for theIT, for marketing or the way I
said, just IT with betterbranding.
I think that's just a mucheasier explanation for someone
who's not in it.
Naomi Liu (06:16):
I like that.
I'm going to steal that.
I'm going to steal that.
Now I'm IT for the wholecompany with better branding,
with better branding, right yeah, it for the whole company with
better branding.
Michael Hartmann (06:26):
Yeah, that's funny.
Naomi Liu (06:27):
That's great.
Ahmad Moore (06:28):
Just a quick point for what you said, naomi, too.
I just recall being on the helpdesk and I'd get tickets like an
email isn't syncing right orthis list isn't pulling right,
and you mentioned not liking themarketing sort of tagline on
there because it's so much morethan that.
So when I got those tickets thatI would have to handle, I'd dig
(06:50):
in and I'd realize that it'sreally not just a tech issue or
a marketing issue or an issue asthey described it, but it was
actually maybe a processbreakdown, right.
So this kind of trained me tosee kind of beyond what the
symptom is and really fix whatthe root issue is.
(07:11):
So when it comes to beingdefined as marketing operations,
it really goes way beyond thatright.
So the help desk it kind offorced me to speak in more of a,
also more in human languagethan jargon, because there are
enough buzzwords in marketingops that we can use all day long
.
But I think a skill that everymops pro needs when you're
(07:34):
sitting between sales andmarketing and it and success and
all the different departments,is being able to speak human, if
you will, right Outside ofjargon, so translator.
Yep exactly.
Michael Hartmann (07:46):
Yeah, no, I think one of the things that you
said that you really leanedinto is listening and listening
closely, and I think a lot ofpeople don't do that or discount
the importance of that.
And I'm curious, knowing whatlittle I know about sales,
(08:07):
because your next stop then wasin account management at an
agency.
Right, yeah, big change.
So I'd love to like like what'sthe driver behind that?
But I'm curious, like all thebest salespeople I've dealt with
are actually really good.
They do two things really wellthey listen really well and they
ask really good questions.
And so I'm kind of like is thatsomething that you think you
(08:27):
took from your help desk roleand that those things you talk
about empathy engine andlistening and took that and
applied that to the accountmanagement role?
Ahmad Moore (08:38):
Absolutely yeah, I always I like to say I went from
fixing tech to fixing peopleRight, but no, but honestly.
Honestly, I wanted to say Iwent from fixing tech to fixing
people right, but no, buthonestly, I think this
transition was because I wantedto understand the business side,
right.
I wanted to understand strategy, I wanted to understand clients
, I wanted to understand theoutcomes that they were looking
(09:01):
for, outcomes that they werelooking for, and what I quickly
realized is that even in allthat, in all that desire to me
wanting to figure that out, Ikind of missed getting my hands
dirty a little bit as well.
So what I mean by that is I wasthe account manager that
couldn't stop checking thebackend of the email platform,
(09:22):
right.
I was that strategist whowanted to go into the code or
the HTML or JSON and see whatwas going on.
So, yeah, I think that itch tobe behind the screen or the help
desk with a more technicalperson really never went away.
But what the job moving intothat more client facing role at
(09:46):
the agency is what it gave me,um was a front row seat to how
clients think right, and and howto translate the marketing
objectives into some of thosemore like actionable, outcome
driven actions.
Right, so cause.
It taught me to navigate thatambiguity and sharpen my ability
(10:06):
to kind of like reverseengineer the outcomes that were
needed.
And it was coming from a placewhere I'm thinking of the
mindset of what the client, howthe client is thinking or how
they're approaching it.
The client may not be thinkingof some of the steps that were
involved in getting to thatoutcome, but I'm listening to
them and I know the results thatthey want to get.
(10:28):
So I'm coming with a fewdifferent perspectives now that
I've had the agencyclient-facing portion of it, but
I still really enjoy sort ofyou know, getting into the back
end and understanding what'sgoing on as well.
Michael Hartmann (10:42):
So I learned both of those things from that
client, so you were able to takesome of that listening and be
able to go understand what theclient was actually asking for,
regardless of what words theywere using right, and then
translate it into.
This is how you practically,tactically, can deliver on those
or guide them in a differentway.
(11:03):
Is that kind of what you'retalking about?
Ahmad Moore (11:13):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
It allowed me to be able to, Iguess, simplify the conversation
without getting too technical,if you will the part that I
liked but also understandingthat the client wanted to
understand how to resolve orcome to a certain outcome, but
without bogging them down withthe technical side that a lot of
people would say that's toomuch for me, that doesn't excite
(11:33):
me, that's not boring.
How do we get to the end result?
Right?
So how do you deal with aclient?
How do you speak to the clientdifferently?
How do you come from theirperspective while still getting
the technical things done andtranslating that in a way that
they can, step by step, clearlysee how this is going to happen?
Michael Hartmann (11:52):
That makes sense.
Yeah, so you were missing someof the hands on though you said.
But then your next role or setof roles actually, I guess were
in more like BDR, sales andsales management, leadership
type roles, including atstartups.
Now I'm curious, like what ledyou to down that path?
(12:14):
Right, it seems like a stepaway from that hands-on kind of
stuff.
Ahmad Moore (12:19):
Yeah, yeah, all right.
So I definitely took the scenicroute and the reason that came
about and how that came aboutwas working with a startup.
And I was working with astartup you can definitely wear
a lot of different hats,regardless of what your title is
.
You kind of step into whateverneeds to be done, whatever needs
(12:57):
to get accomplished to continueto build and grow the company.
So when I took this role, Iunderstood that that was going
to be part of what we did in thestartup.
So I got to sell things Sure,that was great.
But I also got to build theprocesses from scratch.
I got to optimize CRMs from anew instance right From scratch.
(13:21):
Um, I got to connect marketingrevenue like in real time.
So when I think, when you're onthe front lines talking to
customers daily, um, what you dois you stop theorizing what
works and you start knowing whatworks Right.
So I got addicted to kind ofwatching how pipelines actually
(13:42):
form Right and that experiencehas me got me obsessed with
alignment.
Because when, when, whenmarketing begins, you know, when
marketing is in a place wherethey're handing off junk to
sales, then you know salessuffer.
So it's that tension rightthere that became sort of my
playground and now really hasbecome sort of the mission
(14:02):
behind the agency, is like thatsales and marketing alignment,
or that sales and marketing andsuccess alignment, that
cross-departmental alignment.
I've seen so much misalignmentin those roles that I've really
just become focused and honed inon what are the best ways that
we can get these teams alignedon the same page, having those
(14:24):
meetings that sometimes want tobe canceled but I think I feel
are necessary to have for thatcommunication, aside from the
technical integrations andconnections, also sort of those
soft skills in talking to thesales operations person right,
or talking to the success personoperation, so, yeah, so getting
(14:44):
into those success personoperation, so, um, yeah, so
getting into those roles, thequestion being like how, how did
it?
How did that come about?
Or how was that, how was thatplay into where I, how I see
things now?
Um, it had a lot to do with thealignment and a lot to do with,
um, building our processes froma hands-off perspective.
(15:06):
But again, that technical sideof me was still there, so I
still had that in the back of mymind.
Michael Hartmann (15:11):
So on the surface it sounds like you were
still stepping away from kind ofan operations-type role, but in
practicality it was somethingdifferent.
Just, I'm curious you know someof the what you just described,
right, I love the idea ofgetting direct feedback from
customers, like I encourageanybody who's listening in an
(15:32):
ops role, like, spend time withyour sales team, try to listen
in and call sick of stuff.
I think it's really reallyvaluable.
But you know, it sounds likeyou also had to deal with
probably some challengingconversations with other teams,
right, like, did you?
Did you think your experiencedealing with you know, in the
help desk role or others, whereyou had, like you're probably
(15:54):
dealing with people who wereupset or frustrated or feeling
under pressure, right, and theyweren't maybe at their best, but
you had to deal with thosekinds of conversations in a
professional way, right?
Did that come in handy as youstarted getting into these roles
where you're interacting withother teams that maybe weren't
(16:14):
aligned on the same page, andhow did that come about?
How did you apply that?
Ahmad Moore (16:21):
Yeah, that definitely was a big part of
learning to think a little bitdifferently or take a different
approach.
When coming from a marketingops perspective, the sales roles
definitely stick out, theclient facing roles stick out,
and I'll just bring up the salesroles that I had specifically
(16:42):
because I did have theopportunity to kind of build a
sales team from scratch but thenalso be that salesperson that
was at trade shows, that wasselling, that was talking to
people directly, and I thinkmost marketing folks they don't
carry a quota, so to speak.
Right, and that shows and whatI mean by that is that I
(17:03):
approach ops like a revenueoperator and not so much a
campaign builder.
Right, like a revenue operatorand not so much a campaign
builder.
Right, if it doesn't shortenthe sales cycle, if it doesn't
speed up lead flow, if itdoesn't improve attribution,
then it's noise right.
And that's kind of what salestaught me.
It taught me to measuremarketing not by activity but by
(17:26):
impact.
And at the end of the day, whenyou're holding a quota and
you're a salesperson and allyou're thinking about is what
impact it's going to make andwhat impact did it make on the
revenue, because when you're insales, nobody really cares how
pretty the email was Right.
They want to.
Taught me to kind of see beyondthe dashboards and keep my
(17:51):
focus on whether or not it movedrevenue and did it make an
impact on revenue.
Community and Slack this weekwas about do we see the
marketing ops roles beingswallowed or integrated up into
(18:16):
the RevOps roles?
And to a certain extent, I dosee that and it does make sense
to me and that is my perspective.
A lot of times I'm coming froma revenue impact perspective.
So, yeah, I mean I think that'swhat that's what those roles
taught me or put me in themindset of.
Now that I come, I'm still inmarketing ops.
I'm still, you know, run anagency that is marketing ops,
(18:39):
but we're very focused onrevenue and the way we approach
that.
We're very focused on impact.
Michael Hartmann (18:48):
That's interesting.
Yeah, interesting do you.
I know your role has expanded.
You have other stuff.
Has that helped you?
How do you handle those kindsof conversations with other
businesses or other teams?
Naomi Liu (19:05):
I think that and I kind of want to go back to
something that you said earlierabout having responsibility in
the BDR and sales piece right, Ithink a lot of the challenges
that I've dealt with in mycareer have come about with lack
of awareness around what theteams actually even do, right,
(19:25):
and so I think when you caneducate and provide context,
because a lot of stuff is aboutcontext too.
provide context around what theteam is actually doing.
How is it helping you?
What are the things, like youhad mentioned, ahmad, around?
Is it shortening the salescycle?
Is it adding to attribution?
I think those are all thingsthat help with that dialogue and
that engagement around.
This is what the operationsteam does and this is how we
help you to attribution.
I think those are all thingsthat help with that dialogue and
(19:48):
that engagement around.
You know, this is what the thisis what the operations team
does and this is how we help you, and you know we're here to
help you, not hinder you,although sometimes I think when
I write sternly worded emails topeople about you know, gdpr and
Castle, you can't actually dothat.
That sometimes can be a bit ofa challenge too.
Michael Hartmann (20:08):
Damn it.
I can't imagine that comingfrom you.
Naomi Liu (20:12):
Sternly worded email.
I do think that alignmentbetween you know, a lot of
people talk about alignmentbetween sales and marketing
right, but it's not until youactively manage an inside sales
or a BDR team which I amcurrently doing now for two plus
years uh that you really, youknow are are, uh, aligning
(20:37):
yourself with sales and, um,really have the ability to see
and peek under the hood as towhat are their challenges where,
what are the things that arereally helping them to move the
needle and what are the things,especially when someone can only
make, for example, x number ofcalls in a day and there's more
(21:00):
than X number of leads that arecoming in, how do you help them
to prioritize that?
And then that's when theoperation side really kicks in.
And then that's when theoperations side really kicks in,
because then you're reallyanalyzing the data and seeing,
like, okay, for every X numberof leads that come in from the
source, they're creating thismany opportunities.
So this is what they should bereally focused on and giving
(21:21):
them.
So they're not just goingthrough a call list dialing for
dollars.
They're really focusing onbeing strategic, on what they
can do, and everything else canbe sent into an email follow-up
or whatever right, especially ifthey're very heavily
commission-based.
Michael Hartmann (21:35):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think understanding the
incentives that drive behaviorfor a lot of these people is
really valuable.
And if you don't understand, Ithink a lot of people who are
listening might go like but mysales team is a pain to work
with, right, they're just,they're lazy or whatever.
(21:56):
But I would tell them, like ifyou haven't been in those shoes
and understand, like they're,like how they get compensated
makes a big difference on howthey behave.
And you mentioned thecommission, right, I've I've
worked with sales teams, somethat were on commission and some
that weren't right and, yeah,you know these head tips like
(22:18):
what, yeah, I was the same way.
Like what they don't havecommission, um, uh, anyway, but
it like.
But it was like it waseye-opening for me, like I,
because I had been approachingthat the team this is a good
example like the team that Ifound out after the fact that I
was trying to get their behaviorto change and I assumed that
they were commission-based, Iwas like this is going to help
(22:39):
you make more money.
Basically is what I was.
Like I was trying to find waysto get them to change their
behavior based on that.
When I found out, like, butthey were I, I felt like I was
hitting my head against the wall.
And when I, when I finallyasked someone like how are they
compensated, and realized theyweren't, that wasn't that the
motivator for them, like itdidn't really matter.
It's like, oh, I need to changemy tactic on how I'm
approaching them Right, and soit's.
(23:01):
It's really fascinating.
Naomi Liu (23:03):
Right, yeah, and especially if you know, if you
are trying to make effectivecalls, right, you want to do a
ton of research to be able to.
You don't just want to pick upthe phone and not be able to
answer basic, even basic bandquestions, for example.
Right, like, you want to beable to understand the business
and what are their potentialchallenges and what vertical
(23:25):
they serve, serve and so a lotof that and just understanding,
like a that takes up time to howdo we then enrich that
information to get it to thesepeople before they even make
that call?
You know, there's small thingslike that that I wouldn't
necessarily.
There's other examples, butthere's small things that I
(23:45):
wouldn't necessarily haveencountered or thought about in
advance and proactively, likedone until I started managing a
BDR team and then realizing,okay, how do I shorten the
amount of like research and busywork they have to do so that
they can pick up the phone andmake an effective call and be
confident going into it, knowingthat they know who to talk to
(24:07):
and that they know objectionhandling?
How do they bypass, likepricing questions?
You know all of this, all ofthat stuff, yeah.
Ahmad Moore (24:16):
In addition, just in addition to that, naomi is
like and that's so important toknow to actually experience,
right, and to actually, like yousaid, you're managing a BDR
team right now and I had thatexperience as well being a BDR,
leading a BDR team, building asales team.
Having that experience to knowwhat the incentives and what's
(24:38):
driving them, like you said,michael, is so important as well
.
And, like what we, what we alsodo currently is like the
structure and the architectureof how everything is set up,
based on the way they're sellingor based on what their
incentives are, because I'veworked on projects where that
wasn't fully understood, right,that sales process wasn't fully
(25:01):
understood, how it happened, andthey you know the client or you
know the person I was workingwith wanted something built out
and without really understandingthe sales process and even
questioning if this is the rightprocess or the way to build it,
you can begin building and thenget yourself tangled up and you
have this whole process thatyou've now built out on the back
(25:24):
end, which really doesn't matchto the next steps or whatever
that exit criteria is to moveinto the next deal stage.
And now you have to go back anddouble back on your work and
redo things.
So I've become very, veryadamant about like having those
discovery calls or having thosealignment meetings before we get
(25:45):
into the back end and reallystart fixing or building out
from scratch or putting thatarchitecture together to make
sure that things flow correctly.
And as soon as you were talking,naomi, that kind of came to my
mind because I was like, yes, Ideal with that often.
I understand now, this may bewhat they think they want, but
(26:07):
based on the sales process andthe steps and the deal stages
and the journeys that you havein place, we now need to
architect it a certain way.
So, yeah, knowing both sides ofit is very important.
Michael Hartmann (26:21):
Well, I think it helps you I go back to this
all the time right, it helps youunderstand is it right or wrong
to do something or not.
It helps you understand is itright or wrong to do something
or not.
It's like, what are thetradeoffs between different
alternatives?
Because very, very unusually inlife are there very clear like
this is the right thing to doright.
And when you get into complexorganizations, that quickly
(26:44):
becomes a choice about tradeoffs, and so I think that comes into
play with technology or processor whatever.
So, okay, so you were at thesestartups, you were kind of
playing a number of roles andthen you pivoted or kind of came
back into marketing automation,marketing operations roles Like
(27:06):
what was the driver behind thattransition?
Ahmad Moore (27:10):
Yeah, like I mentioned, even in the roles
that I kind of fell into,because you know, of wearing
different hats, being at thestartups and them not being
necessarily intentional moves,those were just moves that, hey,
things need to get done.
We're building something here.
That's where you know we needto wear these different hats.
Let's just do it.
(27:30):
Wear these different hats,let's just do it that.
Like I said, that itch neverleft to where I was, like I was
always wanting to be in the backend and seeing how things were
built and seeing you know whatwas going on.
So it's like, have you everwalked into a room and then
instantly started fixing it?
Right?
That's kind of like how I feltwhen, or how I feel currently,
(27:51):
when I see a broken tech stack,right, I find myself
volunteering.
When I find myself volunteeringto clean up like lead routing
logic at 10 pm or you know,doing something that where I
said you know, waking up in themiddle of the night worrying
about did that email go to theright people?
Michael Hartmann (28:11):
right, naomi, exactly.
Or picking up a project andsaying hey.
Ahmad Moore (28:12):
I'll just do this, worrying about did that email go
to the right people, rightNaomi, exactly, exactly.
Or picking up a project andsaying, hey, I'll just do this.
You know, I'll just do this forfun.
You know, I got some time thisweekend I can work on that, you
know.
I knew then that that's, youknow, marketing ops was where I
wanted to be, and it wasn't justsomething that I felt I was
good at, I felt it was somethingthat I needed to do.
(28:33):
Right, this is what I enjoy todo.
I like to do this, I need to dothis, and it's the clarity in
knowing what I wanted to do thatreally made every career move
or every step after that muchmore intentional and much more
clear for me, because I knewwhat I wanted to do.
(28:54):
So every step had a little bitmore purpose in it.
I knew that I wanted to be inthis type of role.
I knew what I wanted to fix andI realized that I got more
satisfaction from optimizingworkflows and closing deals.
That was clear for me.
I didn't want to manage theprocess, I wanted to master it
(29:18):
right.
I wanted to be a process master.
What's the best process?
How can we make this processbetter.
How can we improve efficiencyhere?
And that's what drove me andthat's what I thought about
constantly and that's what Iknew that I had a passion to do.
So that's really when Irealized, like MarTech marketing
ops, this is kind of the zone Iwant to be in, this is the flow
I want to be in.
How can I grow from here?
(29:39):
And from that point on, it madeit clear on which direction I
was at it.
Michael Hartmann (29:44):
Yeah, but I'm sure there was a lot of pressure
, like you had moved into kindof sales, sales leadership, that
like that's where you wouldcontinue to go.
Like did you feel a lot ofpressure to to go through that?
Or how did you like it feelslike there's a little bit of
tension, right?
The sort of easy path might'vebeen to continue to pursue sales
and sales leadership, versustaking a kind of a big step in a
(30:07):
different direction.
Like how did you go throughthat thought process?
Ahmad Moore (30:14):
That one.
That was that's a greatquestion, because that was that
was a really hard one for me todeal with in terms of like
taking, taking your traditional,like typical career path and
saying, hey, I'm going to go,this is the next step and this
is the next step.
So I think for a while I triedto chase that, but I stopped
(30:37):
chasing that at one point.
Right, I stopped chasing titlesand what I started really to
chase was more of mastery.
Right, meaning, every time Izigged instead of zagged, right,
I picked up a new layer or anew skill from the sales role to
the marketing role, to the opsroles, to strategy roles, and I
(30:57):
think it's that cross-functionalview is what makes me dangerous
.
Now, right, it's like myjourney has been like a mixtape
versus a resume.
Michael Hartmann (31:09):
Right, my journey has been all over the
place A mixtape.
Half our listeners have no ideawhat you're talking about.
Ahmad Moore (31:16):
So my age, but I'm just.
Michael Hartmann (31:17):
you know, I should have said playlist or
something like that, but but,but it's really better because
it's like they took effort tomake a mixtape.
Come on.
Ahmad Moore (31:26):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, but it was a hard.
It was to answer your question.
It wasn't an easy path.
I think it was one where Itried on roles that
traditionally didn't fit Right,but at the same time I feel like
that was the best educationthat I could get, and I wasn't
(31:50):
necessarily climbing the ladder,so to speak.
And I wasn't necessarilyclimbing the ladder, so to speak
, but I was kind of crafting myown, my own way or my own path,
(32:17):
and it was definitelyuncomfortable.
It wasn't a place where I thinkyou know you learn to get into
those uncomfortable places andbe OK with that.
You learn to stay curious,because staying curious is
what's going to help you tolearn.
I think you get comfortable withthose moops moments, the
marketing ops oops moments,which I love that channel and
the marketing ops Slackcommunity, because people come
and share their mistakes, andit's not that I like to see
people making mistakes, it'sjust that I like to see that you
know you made that mistake orsomeone made that mistake.
(32:39):
That means you're growing, thatmeans you're learning.
That means the next time youcome and have to deal with the
same, the same issue, you have areference of a mistake that you
may have made that you don'twant to make again, but now you
have a different way to approachit, or you know to avoid this,
and those are some nuances thatI think you can't.
That just comes with experience, right.
(33:00):
That just comes with bumpingyour head.
That just comes with you knowtaking chances and being okay
with failing fast, if you will,and learning.
So, while it was difficult andwhile it wasn't your typical
career path, um, I'm lookingback now.
I'm I'm I'm happy that I didtake a chance and take those
roles that I wasn't comfortablewith with the startups, with the
(33:21):
sales, with the it help desk,and then finally finding you
know where, if you want to callit, my sweet spot or where my
passion is yeah, yeah, thatmakes sense.
Michael Hartmann (33:33):
I suspect that getting to that let's tell
people like one of the mostdifficult times in in life is
when you are facing a decisionabout something.
Or maybe a better example islike when you're trying to make
a decision about something thatfeels unnatural, or you're
waiting for, say, a test resultfrom a doctor or something right
, and then like that, that thattime in between realizing you
(33:54):
have to make that decision andthen making this decision is
probably the hardest part.
Like to me, whenever I'vegotten, like making the decision
so, in your case, right, makinga decision like I really want
to shift my focus for my careerto be ops to.
You know, um, probably made iteasier once you made the
decision right, but it wasprobably not.
It was agonizing up until thatpoint.
Ahmad Moore (34:15):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, it, agonizing for sure, up until
that point, right, um, to yourpoint, um, it, it, it's not, for
you have to have some somethick skin sometimes, right,
because you have to be able tohear, you know, you have to be
able to get through thosefeelings where you may doubt
(34:36):
yourself, right, or you maythink is this the right path,
that I'm taking, or I'm just notgoing to get this, I'm just not
going to learn this.
So you have to keep going, youhave to keep on trying things,
you have to stay curious.
And you know I'll mention thisalso because my daughter just
graduated from Penn State.
So I have to shout out mydaughter and she got her degree.
(34:59):
And I did not get my my collegedegree, right, I did go to
college.
But one thing I know about youknow, having a college degree
that it'll definitely open updoors for you, right, but it's
the results that keep thosedoors open.
Definitely open up doors foryou, right, but it's the results
that keep those doors open,right.
(35:21):
And I learned that you canstill learn if you don't have
your college degree.
Because what I did is I startedto lean into certifications, I
started leaning into heavilyself-education.
I started leaning into, mostimportantly, execution.
So I went ahead and I did get aproject management
certification from Stanford.
That was for agile methodology,being a scrum master and that
(35:44):
really gave me a lot ofstructure in terms of how to run
a project, how to do thingsfrom a very organized and
structured way, and you get thatfrom your degree.
But I think my real educationcame from having to build a
system under pressure right, orhaving to learn something on the
fly or, you know, making thatmistake but taking the attitude
(36:07):
of hey, I'm never going to makethis mistake again because I
have to prove myself.
So I was always in like proveit mode, if you will, and I
think that mindset helped mebecause I have to prove myself.
So I was always in like proveit mode, if you will, and I
think that mindset helped mebecause I couldn't hide behind
credentials.
I couldn't hide behind that.
I had to deliver and I had todeliver consistently.
So it helped.
Michael Hartmann (36:24):
Sounds like you turned it into a
motivational kind of element foryou, as opposed to something
that could be seen as like a lotof people might go like oh, I
just like I guess I'm screwed,right yeah.
Ahmad Moore (36:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I'm not by all
means, like I said, I bragged onmy daughter a little bit like
get your, get your degree, youknow.
If you have that opportunity,go ahead, get the contract.
I'm not, I'm not knocking that,but if you for whatever case,
whatever the case may be, if youdon't or you can't or whatever
the case, don't let that limityou Like, continue to you know,
(36:57):
continue to know that you canself-educate, you can get
certifications, you can hone inon what you want to do and, you
know, become a master of that bylearning.
Especially nowadays, there's somany other avenues that you can
take to get to that place ofyou know mastery, in whatever
field it is you want to be in.
Michael Hartmann (37:15):
Totally agree.
I'm curious did that changeyour view about how you like
what you did in terms ofrequirements for hiring people?
I don't know, naomi, if you'vedone this, but, like I don't
know, five plus years ago, whenI started posting jobs to hire
people, the default would berequires a college degree.
(37:37):
I started striking that, or atleast modifying like college
degree or equivalent experienceor something to that effect,
because I felt like it wasleaving people out who, maybe,
due to whatever circumstances orwhatever.
Do you think that that's becomeless of an issue or do you
still feel like some of that'suh, holding in a?
I'm curious, naomi, if you'vechanged your hiring process for
(37:59):
that?
Naomi Liu (38:01):
Um, I mean, I have.
I guess I have two commentsabout that.
Like some of the brightest andmost talented and, uh, smartest
people I've ever worked with notpeople that have reported to me
, but just people that I'veworked with as colleagues in
organizations have not hadcollege degrees right.
They've just been people thathave been extremely talented and
(38:23):
interested in the things thatthey are good at and enjoy, and
I've just really doubled downdeep into that In terms of being
able to hire for roles on myteam at this moment, right now
what is even a headcount, to behonest but it's definitely
something.
(38:43):
I think that, going forward, itwould be something that I would
not necessarily, like youmentioned, take as big of a
stock into, because I think alot of it depends on the
individual and their ability andpotential experience.
It's not necessarily somethingthat I would put as much weight
(39:04):
into at the moment.
Michael Hartmann (39:08):
Amad, what's your thought on that?
Ahmad Moore (39:10):
I think I have two ways of looking at that.
Um, the first one, first thing,is I don't.
I don't think the, the way thatI've started to hire, has
changed in terms of do I stillput you know degree desired on
(39:33):
the, on the, on the jobdescription or certain certain
skills?
That would be ideal.
Maybe I tweaked a little bityou know I don't get too
specific into changing that jobdescription but it's absolutely
changed my my view and myperspective on on whether you
(39:55):
have that or not, Because Ithink someone who has that drive
and that motivation, even ifthey don't have that degree, is
still going to apply for thatposition and then try to make
their case with the experiencethat they have or what have you.
And I know I've done thatpersonally and I say that coming
from a personal place.
It's like I've gottendiscouraged a lot of times when
(40:17):
I've seen a minimum bachelordegree needed in X, Y and Z, and
I would let that in thebeginning, turn me away
immediately, right, Until I gotto a point one time where I was
just like you know what.
I have the experience, I havethe skillset.
I know it says bachelor degreerequired.
I'm still going to put myresume in and apply for this and
(40:40):
I would say, more times thannot, I ended up getting the
interview and I ended up gettingthe position and the role based
on proving to them that I hadthe experience, that I had the
knowledge, that I didn'tnecessarily take the traditional
way, just being upfront withthem.
You know this is you know, Idon't have the bachelor's degree
that you say, but I have fiveyears experience in this.
(41:03):
I have a certification inHubSpot, I have a certification
in Marketo, this and that, andthat you know that results
driven attitude really helped.
And so, going back to my firstpoint, the reason why I said I
haven't really changed the jobdescription, so to speak, is I
think someone who has that driveand who has that motivation
(41:27):
will drive past that seeing thatjob description.
So I'm not going to water downmy description, but the ones
that want to make it through, mymindset is they're going to,
they're going to, they're goingto push for this anyway, they're
going to have that drive andthey're going to say yeah, so,
yeah, so I definitely.
I guess my mindset is differentin terms of I will take every
(41:47):
candidate, whether they havethat full description, and I see
this as a disclaimer.
Sometimes a lot on roles beingput out there now like they'll
have a little blurb that says,hey, even if you don't have all
the skills that you, you know,you think still apply.
So I'm kind of right there.
That's me.
I would have that blurb on myjob description.
Michael Hartmann (42:06):
So we're getting kind of let's wrap up
here.
So I know that you founded youragency.
I think, if I understand right,like part of that, the driver
for that was a recent layoff, soyou were laid off from a
company and that led to that.
Curiously, what led you to dothat?
And then, kind of, what aresome of the big things you're
seeing in the marketplace now,maybe across technology, ai,
(42:27):
whatever?
And then we can wrap up.
Ahmad Moore (42:30):
Okay, yeah, for sure.
Um, yeah, recently laid off.
Um, you know, I think that wasthe push that I didn't know I
needed.
Right, the layoffs stung.
Layoffs always sting, but butthe freedom that you get from it
, that that definitely hitsdifferently.
Um, so what I'm seeing right nowis like a major, you know, a
(42:53):
major hubspot wave, if you will.
And this may just be from myown perspective, because when I
first started the agency I wasso, like, deep and heavy into
Marketo that my thinking was,hey, we're going to start this
agency and the majority of workwe're going to have is probably
Marketo work.
But what I'm seeing is that,like mid-market companies, they
(43:13):
want enterprise automation andthey don't want that enterprise
bloat.
So that's kind of where oursweet spot is.
Like I'm building the agencythat I wish I had when I was
in-house, right, so a faster,more strategic, built for
results.
And I'm just seeing more andmore clients on board wanting to
(43:35):
use HubSpot for that.
Not a knock on Marketo at all.
I still love Marketo there's somuch you can do in it but I
think there's a huge gap foragencies that can understand
both strategy and systems, andclients, I think, want a partner
who can make their revenueengine a lot smoother, faster,
(43:55):
smarter, and I think they can dothat and scale that with
HubSpot.
So that's kind of what thelayoff did for me.
It kind of pushed me into hey,we have to make this happen at
this point.
Right, let's go ahead.
Because the agency I had donethe formation of it about a year
and a half ago, but I would sayit's only been about six months
since we've really beenonboarding clients at a steady
(44:17):
rate.
So I think the second part toyour question is like what are
some of the tech shifts andthings that are happening right
now that I'm excited about?
Well, obviously, ai.
Right, ai to me is like the newintern, you know, cheap, fast
and needs a lot of oversight, ifyou will.
But, but seriously, I'm, I'm,I'm, I'm using AI to the point
(44:40):
where it's really changing theway we work, from content
operations to campaign QA,things like that.
Like what excites me so muchabout AI is the strategic
heartbeat of go-to marketing.
I think the folks who masterthe tools, the data, who master
(45:01):
orchestration, they're about tobecome the most valuable players
in the room and we'reautomating everything except
critical thinking.
Right, and that's where Mops isgoing to thrive right.
The more machines handle therepeatable tasks, the more we
get to lead strategy andunderstand strategy and build
(45:23):
different skills that we can nowfocus on, because we're not
bogged down with these othersort of repeatable things that
we can have AI do for us.
Michael Hartmann (45:32):
So, yeah, yeah , I'm bullish on all that as
well, ahmad, this has been a funconversation.
Thanks for sharing.
I think we touched on somestuff that maybe a lot of people
wouldn't be comfortable talkingabout, so I appreciate that
your transparency, and that iffolks want to learn more about
you or what you've got going on,what's the best way for them to
do that?
Ahmad Moore (45:59):
Oh yeah, you can connect with me on LinkedIn,
ahmad J Moore, or you can headover to PressureMarketingcom.
You can check out the websiteand the services.
And then, of course, I'm a MopsPro community member.
So if you're on the Mops Procommunity and you need to find
your footing, believe me, I'vebeen there, so we can connect
there as well.
I think that community is howwe all win, so we'd love to
connect with whoever wants toconnect.
Michael Hartmann (46:20):
Terrific Well.
Again, thank you, Ahmad, forsharing Naomi, as always.
Thank you for being a part ofthis.
I always enjoy it, Thank you.
Thank you, Naomi, yeah.
Naomi Liu (46:29):
Thanks, michael Thanks.
Michael Hartmann (46:30):
Naomi.
Thanks to all of our audiencefor continuing to support us as
always.
If you have suggestions forguests or topics, or want to be
a guest, reach out to Naomi,mike or me and we'd be happy to
chat with you about it.
Until next time, bye everybody,Bye everyone.
Bye.
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