How Can Marketers Partner with Sales in the Boardroom with Kyle Priest and Eric Hollebone

Episode Transcript
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Michael Hartmann (00:01):
Hello, welcome to another episode of OpsCast
brought to you byMarketingOpscom, powered by all
the MoPros out there.
I'm your host, michael Hartman,flying solo today.
Today we are going to beexploring how marketing can earn
its seat in the boardroom andwhat it takes to partner with
sales, revops and the rest ofthe executive team to truly
influence revenue strategy.
So joining me to talk aboutthis are two guests today with

(00:22):
deep experience across B2Bleadership and consulting.
So joining me to talk aboutthis are two guests today with
deep experience across B2Bleadership and consulting.
First up is Kyle Priest, who hasheld roles as a CMO, cro, coo
and president of companiesranging from private
equity-backed SaaS firms toglobal agencies like Razorfish.
He's built and led marketing,sales and growth teams and has a
front row seat to what worksand what doesn't when presenting

(00:42):
to the board.
Also joining me is a returnguest, eric Hollibone, who is
president and COO at DemandLab,a marketing consultancy helping
organizations mature theirmarketing operations and
technology strategy.
He's also an engineer bytraining, yay, engineers which
shows up in how we bringstructure to complexity,
especially when translatingmarketing activity into business

(01:03):
value.
So, kyle, eric, thanks forcoming and welcome to the show.

Eric Hollebone (01:06):
Thanks for having us.

Kyle Priest (01:08):
Thank you, Michael Thanks.

Well, and I think, Kyle, I think we figured
out you and I are in the samegeographic area where we live,
but I don't think you're inTexas right now.
Is that right?

I'm enjoying the 70 degree weather in the Midwest
right now.
It's wonderful.

Yeah Well, we've got a little bit of a dip
today.
In case you're wondering, it'sonly supposed to be 94.
Oh, and I I think I did thetranslation for some people in
europe earlier today.
I think that equates to 35, 36celsius something about that
yeah, all right.
Well, let's.
Let's start with an idea herebefore we get going.

(01:45):
So before and this is somethingI think we talked about, like
before marketing ever gets intoa boardroom or executive team
meeting, depending on thecompany you said that C-suite
needs to be aligned, and I think, kyle, this was you who said
this.
So what does that look like inpractice, and and how often do
you actually see that?

Yeah, thanks, michael.
And you know, eric, feel freeto join in or add on to this.
What I would say is there's alot of depends on the size of
your company and the situationof, you know, lifecycle of your
company.
Are you private equity backed?
Are you public?
Are you small, medium large?
Are you hyper company?
Are you private equity backed?
Are you public?
Are you small, medium large?
Are you hyper growth?
Are you growth?
Are you operate Like?
What modes are you in and whereare you at?

(02:29):
Because that tends to change thecomplexion a bit of what goes
on in the boardroom and alsowith that, and what industry you
in and sort of how mature isyour overall kind of commercial
organization?
Because sometimes the CMO isfront and center in the
boardroom, sometimes they're notin the boardroom, but when the

(02:52):
team is aligned, I felt thatalways all members of the
leadership team staff, elt, arein the boardroom and, funny
enough, that's not always thecase and more and more, when it
is aligned, it means thateveryone's rowing in the same
direction on a few fronts.
You know, there's, there's thevision, but then there's what

(03:14):
are we trying to do this yearthat will get us towards it and
what are we really prioritizingand are we all sticking to those
priorities and are we agileenough to change right?
Like it's one thing to say, youknow, we're gonna, we're gonna
plant flag here and we're gonna,we're gonna get most of our
bookings over here or we'regonna enter this market.
It's gonna go, you know, gofast.
But everything changes theminute the plan hits the street

(03:38):
right.
And so a really aligned companyis an agile company because
they're connected and focused onthe right things together and
when that happens between theboard and the leadership team,
growth is exponential becauseit's effective and it's
efficient and it just works.

(04:00):
When marketing isn't in theboardroom, it tends to indicate
that maybe first the leadershipteam is not as aligned as it
could or should be, or at leastit creates a chance where maybe

(04:20):
the full story is not on thebookings and the margin and the
quality of revenue, which I'lltalk about as we go on, is the
most important thing for anyonein the commercial group.
It's really about sales andmarketing being not just tied at
the hip but really connected inevery single way, and more and
more we call that a growthfunction where we see at least

(04:42):
sales and marketing and rev ops,or sales ops and marketing ops,
depending again where you're atum all aligned.
And when the team is aligned atthe leadership level, then the
story becomes consistent andclear and the lexicon or the
words everyone uses are the same.
And if there's one thing youwant to really tap into wherever

(05:03):
you work, it's what's ourlexicon and how do we
communicate the targets, thevalues, the goals.
And then how do we reportinsights against those and
performance against those?
When you see those, those arekind of for me the KPIs, that
there's an aligned team.
If I'm entering a company tolook at it, you know, are they

(05:25):
speaking in one language?
Do they have clear not justclear vision, values, goals, but
they all speak about them thesame.
And if you're trying to growyour career or improve your
team's integration, you canstart there.
That's probably the first placeto start.

I can talk about that all day, michael.
I'll stop there.
I'd like to pick up on twothreads and give one example.
I think the point aboutstorytelling is one of the key
focuses that we kind ofunderrate at times and I think
it needs to take a strongerposition in most people's
thinking and thought process.
It's like the evolution of themission and vision actually
becomes a story.

(05:59):
The story is the kind of theoutput, and I think we're going
to circle around that one alittle bit.
Today we work with Fortune 500,from our consulting all the way

(06:21):
down to small companies.
But one of the ones I reallyenjoy working with is Series A,
or, once you go for the series B.
It's a story about growth,which means you better have your
marketing story and yourrevenue story set for those
investors, and I find thatleadership doesn't include
marketing or doesn't understandthe value of marketing at that
point in an integrated way likeyou've described.

(06:42):
But I just want to like boil itdown to like it's really
important, even at the smallsize of companies, that this
alignment happens.
Otherwise you're missing a hugepotential or you're just
slowing your growth is the otheranswer.
You're just not getting to thegoals that you really want.

Yeah, yeah, I mean I really agree with Kyle,
your statement, Like gettingaligned on you called it the
lexicon but like having a commonmeaning and terminology you're
going to use within theorganization about key metrics
or topics.
The way you talk about them, Ithink, is really important,
because I see this all the timewhere just people in general,

(07:19):
right, where they term I like touse, they're in violent
agreement, right, but they'resaying the same thing but with
different words, and think thatthey're not agreeing and they
are, and that happens all thetime.
Or the other one, right,they're using the same words
with different meanings and theytruly aren't agreeing, but they
think they are.

I think that, comes down to the lexicon,
really forms the elevator pitchthat everybody should be able to
give about the company, andthat's one way to test whether
they're actually aligned or notis are you not just reciting the
elevator pitch, but do youunderstand the elevator pitch
that you're trying to give?
And ultimately, that should beyour key differentiator for your

(07:56):
, whatever your vision is atthis current time and I find a
lot of people have struggled toarticulate that throughout an
organization, top to bottom.
So it's a very valid pointabout getting aligned and how to
get aligned and then testinghow to get aligned.

Yeah.
So I mean, Eric, you touched onthis just a little bit right
this idea that many marketerswant to be, or at least say they
want to be, revenue centric,but they don't really either
don't know how or they haven'treally done any examples and
haven't been taught how to do it.
So when you're working withCMOs or marketing leaders, how

(08:34):
do you help them guide towardsthat?
What do you do to help themwith that?

Well, let me step back and go back a little
bit in their personal histories.
Most people who went through auniversity course never really
got a financials background andI think that's kind of the thing
that's missing in the marketingdepartment.
And some people have a realallergic reaction to a
spreadsheet and, honestly, as amarketing leader, you have to
get over that because that's howyou're going to communicate to
the rest of the organization.

(09:00):
I mean, yes, brand is nice, yes, operations is the way you get
things done.
But how you communicate has tobe in the reference language of
the business, which happens tobe revenue or cost, in other
words, financial.
And if you're not on the samepage, you're never going to be.
Your message is never going tobe learned.
If you can't translate you knowthe metrics you have internally
to something impactfulexternally, you're not going to

(09:23):
have an impactful message.
And this goes back to a pointthat I've sort of been
ruminating over for years, whichis marketers, especially
marketing leadership, issupposed to be a storyteller
externally to the organization.
That's the role they're givenby the structure of the
organization, but theyinternally turn out to be one of
the poorest set ofcommunicators and storytellers

(09:44):
to the rest of the organization.
They're always pushing out oh,here's the brand message, but
they never follow it up withanything that makes them
credible, nothing that adds thevalue of what they do and how
they do it to the rest of theorganization.
One of my little quips in lifeis if you enter an organization
as a new marketing leader, thefirst person you should walk

(10:05):
down actually, there's two, twopeople you should walk down and
shake the hands with and becomefriends with is your CFO and
your CIO.
Cio is technology and all thatkind of stuff, but if you want
to do anything in anorganization, you better be
aligned with the CFO.

I tell marketing ops leaders to maybe
not the CFO, but whoever theirkey finance person is.

Oh, yeah, go make friends in finance because
they'll A give you the money andpermission to spend and, b
they'll be your strongestadvocate when decisions are made
at the table if they believe inyour growth story.
And part of what marketing doesis they don't tell the growth
story internally does is theydon't tell the growth story

(10:48):
internally.
So I think there's a big gap inmarketing leadership in terms
of telling the or learning howto tell the story at the board.
And I would turn to Kyle andsay you've been at boards.
What are your thoughts aroundhow marketing presents itself at
a board meeting or gettingeverybody else ready for a board
?

board meeting or getting, even getting everybody
else ready for a board.
Yeah, and you know, gettingready for the board effectively
means that everybody, if youwant to be effective, means that
everybody in marketing isthinking revenue first.
Because if it's only about topof funnel and brand and major
initiatives, major tactics,that's not interesting.

(11:24):
Those are the KPIs that lead tothe outcomes.
And it's easy to say focus onoutcomes, not KPIs.
But I think what happens toRevOps, teams, marketers,
salespeople, support people,success people is a little bit
of a roundabout way to get intothe board is everybody gets
focused in their theirday-to-day tactics and the

(11:47):
things they have to get done orthe KPI metrics they need to hit
.
I need to generate three timespipeline coverage, I need to
make sure these reports are outon time and, you know, match to
the board pack, whatever it is.
But the reality is, if everyoneis thinking revenue first, we,
we change everything about howwe think and I would challenge

(12:08):
the marketers and the RevOps tonot think, oh, I'm in sales ops
or marketing ops, or marketingor sales, I'm just in growth.
And this is all leading to howdo you show up to the board and
how do you show up to theexternal.
There's really three audiences.
I think, just for what it'sworth, that are three groups of
audiences.
One is up, that could be theleadership team, the board,

(12:29):
investment community or evenmarket.
The other is across, and acrossis only across the whole
company or across departmentsoutside of sales support.
Right, because those are withinthe third group sales support
mark, because those are withinthe third group, and the reason
I bucket them like that is uphas its own form of story.
Across is a different cadenceand set of focus and KPIs to

(12:54):
make sure that you're achievingwhat needs to be connected to up
and then within is what youneed to do every day in your
function or sub-.
You know you're in marketing.
You need to focus in demand orperformance, or you need to
focus in uh, social or pay, youknow, earn what, whatever it is
your web tech, you know allthose things are uh, very

(13:15):
important what you do every day.
They're not important up aboveunless they're supporting what
the up above wants to hear.
And so, um, if everybody canthink growth first and we've
talked more about that here in aminute too, probably but with
that mindset, you go into theboard effectively, when you go
in at the hip with revenue andsupport and success.

(13:37):
You know, the thing that theboard wants to hear is A are we
on plan?
And, by the way, on plan meanspredictable.
It means predictable Boardsdon't want to see you crush your
number and go over by 120% ifyou're publicly traded.
They do if you're hyper growth,right.
So you got to know what yourmilestone is.
But whatever it is,predictability or linearity of

(13:59):
the pipeline is really important.
So it's not just the currentstate performance, it's are we
predicting the future?
Well, and marketing plays ahuge role in that, right.
And so when we think about aninbound lead or an outbound or a
partner or a field or a newlogo or an existing, they only
want to hear about that afterthey hear did we hit it?

(14:20):
And then they want to hear whatdid we do to make sure we hit
it?
That was great, and what did welearn?
And what macros and what micros.
And so the only way to get your,your board, that kind of data
is to really think about revenuefirst.
Um, and when everyone isfocused, and again you may be
building a brand, I've been insituations where we've acquired
56, uh companies, 39 companies,uh, the one I'm in now is 25 so

(14:45):
far and growing, and it's allabout brand in a certain way,
but we don't focus on that.
We focus on the growth numberand then quality of revenue.
So I'm going to come back tothat and the board wants to hear
okay, did you hit your numberin the areas you thought you
would that would get us the mostvalue for our shareholders, and

(15:06):
are you running into roadblocks?
Are you running into headwinds?
Are you celebrating tailwinds?
So great board marketing showsup like connected with
everything else revenue first,followed by quality of revenue
or bookings, however you want tothink of that.
They're not the same but forpurposes of this discussion.

(15:26):
And then major initiatives andtheir marketing tends to focus
on.
Look at all the things we didand you know what Activities.
I totally empathize because itis a hands-on sweat job to get
100 trade shows done, to get1,000 campaigns out, but the
volume doesn't matter to the upaudience.

(15:49):
What they want to know is whatdid you learn through that major
initiative?
Or how did it help you achievewhat we asked you to achieve?
And they can pass that learningon.
If it's private equity, they'llshare across portfolio right.
Or it validates and buildstrust with the board that hey,
these guys are really on top ofwhat's going on in their
business, they can pivot,they're agile and they can
predictably hit their targetsand they're growing in the right

(16:11):
way with the right quality ofrevenue.
Um, there's a lot more to saythere right now, uh, but.
But I would say just havingthat mindset is a big step
forward.

A couple go ahead, eric, if I was, to boil
that down as to how does thattranslate down into the
marketing level.
There's a story to be toldthere, and especially in the B2B
space.
I'm not as familiar with B2C,but it's similar, somewhat
simpler sometimes.
There's still three things thata marketer needs to report on.
To tie into what you justidentified, kyle, I mean, at the

(16:42):
end of the day, marketing hasto tell the organization what
output they have and why itmattered.
In other words, if you'rereaching for MQLs or leads
passed to sales, or whatever themetric may be, as the output of
marketing, that's great, that'sthe outcome that you're looking
for and that's what you shouldbe reporting on.
We impacted, you know, 60% ofthe deals we passed on to the

(17:04):
BDRs or to the account reps.
That's your goal?
Okay, great.
But then back to your pointabout predictability.
Okay, that got me this quarter.
What am I going to get in afuture quarter?
So now I need to almost stepback in time and assure the
people I'm reporting to that Ihave done my homework and the

(17:26):
story continues as I go furtherand further back in time.
And certainty, which means that, ok, I'm going to hit my next
quarter because I have peopleflowing through the funnel
properly, at the right velocity,at the right stages to be able
to hit the target for nextquarter as well.
So I see this whole process asbasically three big reporting
steps.
Lead generation gets yourvolume in the door.

(17:48):
Engagement is that stagebetween getting a qualified name
from demand gen In other words,the handoff from demand gen is
a qualified name.
And then the nurturing orengagement people are about
moving that person from thatinitial touch to being
successful at moving into thedeal stage and ultimately, the
deal stage, the output.
So if you put that instorytelling, that's a beginning

(18:08):
, middle and end You've got yourstory right there.
That's what the company wantsto hear, because that every
single one of those piecesaffects the revenue journey.
If we do our job right inmarketing and marketing ops and
rev ops to tell that story.
It's very simple, metric whatdo we contribute to the overall
sales pipeline in terms of apercentage you have to work out.
Every organization has tofigure out what that denominator

(18:31):
, denominator ratio, looks like.
So you don't fight over it.
But once it's set, it's set.
Then you go back in your ownbailiwick, which is you know how
do we move people around,engage them and get them started
, which is that engagement story.
How are we compelling, how dowe differentiate, how do we move
people forward, what do we dowith them?
And then, of course, theinterest of getting them in the

(18:54):
door in the first place.
And getting them in the doortakes a slight two-form split.
It's like do you know everybodyin your lead world?
In other words, you have acertification or something that
qualifies that person, or is itopen and you're just going after
everybody?
So once you sort those piecesout, the story tells itself and
now becomes a simple way ofdoing it.

(19:14):
Now you can then add on to thestory with now that we got the
basics out of the way.
In other words, 80% of keepingthe lights on is what Mark is
doing.
Now you go back to the lessonsthat Kyle's trying to extract,
which is, and how are you doingit?
Better each quarter or month oryear or whatever, and what am I
learning from it?
So I'm getting better at thiscycle.
Each and every time there is anoperational efficiency one, but
it's really it's only going toadd 10 to 15% of productivity.

(19:37):
At the end of the day, whatreally is interesting is what's
new.
What have you learned?
How have you implemented this,how is it impacting the numbers
and so forth.
So I think there's an intuitivebuilt-in story in marketing
that marketing is notarticulating very well to
anybody else.

Yeah, so I mean, kyle, one of the things
you said echoes.
I did a white paper for themarketing ops community last
year around how to measure B2Bmarketing effectiveness and one
of the key points for me as Iwas doing the research and
talking to people about it is Idon't think there's anything
inherently wrong with any ofthose kind of metrics, right,

(20:15):
you could go all the way up fromlike tactical, you know system
level stuff to campaign level,to all the way up to say
attribution or contributionkinds of things.
Level, to all the way up to sayattribution or contribution
kinds of things.
What I, what I assert, is thatactually it's that those have
been used with the wrongaudience for the wrong thing,
right, in a lot of cases.
And one of the things I think Isame thing here.

(20:38):
Right, I think a lot ofmarketing leaders have missed
the opportunity to tell stories,have missed the opportunity to
tell stories, and so how wouldyou, how would you think about
storytelling at the board level?
Right, what would you know?
what would that be?
I know you.
You said something to us that Ithink shocked both Eric and me.

(20:59):
So like, like, I'll let you letthe that you go into that with
our audience then.

Yeah, I think you probably talked about the funnel
, which is is is my favoritething to talk about.
So I think to to build when wehave everybody in the sales and
marketing and rev ops I'll justsay rev ops, but again,
sometimes we know it's sales opsand marketing ops and more

(21:24):
could be support ops, aligned onlexicon and aligned on focus
and priorities.
We need a scorecard for thatand unfortunately, too many
times the marketing teams willsee the scorecard from their
view, which is the above, thefunnel, top of funnel, on down,
and the first thing I do when Ienter a new role is I flip that

(21:49):
funnel right on its head and wealways report from the closed
one back.
We always report from theclosed one back.
And if everyone will startdoing that in their day-to-day,
wherever you are in your career,what'll happen is you'll think
more like an owner becauseyou'll say, okay, the goal is a
hundred closed, one new logosand a hundred expansions with
clients at this margin, at this,at this bookings rate for the

(22:12):
quarter or for the year, and ofthat we want 17% from this
channel partners.
We want 30% of that to sourcefrom this.
And now you're tying your everyday not to okay, well, I have
that number in the middle,that's all I care about.
No, you care about the closedone, because today you certainly
also care about that KPI, butthe up audience cares about that

(22:35):
top number.
And if you're in RevOps, thebest thing you can do to help
the organization is startreporting that revenue by
quality of revenue and sourceright.
And source needs to be specificMarketing inbound, bdr, sdr,
outbound field, self-generated,partner generated right.
That is really important.
And as you get to understandyour funnel stage gate

(22:59):
progressions by inbound source,by type of product, by region,
all those different metrics.
That's what the board isultimately going to want to hear
.
They're going to want to hearthat we achieved the target and
from the revenue officer and themarketing officer side by side,
doing the same presentationtogether and in that or if
that's one person they're goingto, they're going to deliver
that, but they're going todeliver a unified message.

(23:20):
It says the way we did.
It is for the last six monthswe've been working really hard
on accelerating the stage gatesand we were able to do that
because we we realized we had alot of great marketing inbound
leads but we didn't have enoughcoverage to return the calls or
the emails or deal with thechats.
And so we fixed our customer'slifetime experience up front and

(23:41):
we got to where we cleared outsome of the noise and we were
able to focus.
That's a board story theyactually want to hear,
supporting how they achieve thenumber and giving confidence
we're going to hit it in thefuture too, because we keep
getting better.
And so the story becomes allabout did the company hit its
number, how did marketingcontribute to it, and what did
marketing learn and dodifferently to make sure that

(24:01):
happened?
And what are they going to doto make sure it happens in the
future?
And, eric, your three tranchesare spot on right and that's the
up message.
That's what the ELT wants tohear, the leadership team wants
to hear every month, that's whatthe board wants to hear, and
ultimately that'll make its wayinto the investor deck.
We are so good at sales andmarketing.
We're a valuable asset.

(24:24):
You should increase the valueof the stock, you should buy
more, you should invest.
That's a big deal.
And then the across the companygets to see and hear and feel
that momentum, and I couldn'tagree more.
Cfo and CIO, the CRO is yoursister or brother, right?
They're connected with your CMO, but those others, they're your
cousins.
I mean, they're right there andthey're the ones in the

(24:46):
organization who are responsiblefor risk mitigation and
protection and enablement, likerev op sales.
Enablement, yes, your area, butfor the company, they're the
ones that enable and and ensurerisk, and in doing that, they
have great analytic skills too,and they will help you look at
this differently.
I think that real quick.
The other thing that marketerstend to do in the boardroom,

(25:07):
that that they can do less of,is, or even in the across right
with the sales leaders andeveryone else, if they're not
speaking the same language andthey're not sharing the outcome
first, everyone turns their earsoff, and I mean everyone in the
company.
A salesperson doesn't careabout ROAS.
They don't even know what itmeans, right?

(25:29):
So return on ad spend is notimportant.
Customer lifetime value alittle more important.
But no, what they care about ishow many leads did marketing
bring to help us hit quota andhow are you helping us influence
the other deals?
One of the pet peeves of mine ismarketers get hyper-focused on

(25:49):
attribution.
At the end of the day, we justwant to understand the impact.
So if you are in B2B and you'rea $50 or $100 million company
and you go to a trade show, youdo not want to come back and
jump up and down about all theleads you created with existing
customers.
What you want to say is we met100 new companies and they gave

(26:11):
us their contact information.
That's nice companies and theygave us their contact
information.
That's nice.
But what really happened is inthe current year there is $10
million of ARR or bookingsopportunity that showed up with
25 customers that came by ourbooth, went to our party, we did
one-on-one meetings with that.
We were able to help impact andover time, yes, all that great

(26:32):
attribution is wonderful ifyou're mature enough to handle
it, but I would say, if yourorganization is running into
that, you're affecting yourability to tell positive stories
and to impact the board, andimpacting the board means more
funding, more support, moreempowerment.

I'd like to just add on to that.
When marketers areinexperienced at doing metrics
or have trouble understandinghow metrics come in, they throw
the kitchen sink at it, hopingsomething will stick.
And what I would go back to is,as Kyle, you've said, the only

(27:15):
thing that matters is what didmarketing do or what will
marketing do to future revenueimpact.
So I think there's only onemetric that matters out of
marketing, which is we met yourdeal number or volume, and
marketing contributed thisamount to that progress or could
claim, if they weren't in theroom, you wouldn't have had 60,
80 or whatever percentage ofdeals.
That's all that marketingshould be talking about
externally, outside of marketing.

(27:37):
All the other stuff we talkabout campaign attribution,
marketing mix, cost per clickthose are internal metrics.
Those are used to optimize whatmarketing should be doing next.
That's the lessons learned ofthe history and penetration of
the market and the shiftingecosystems and everything else.
Great, keep that in marketing.

(27:57):
Nobody cares about clicks on alanding page.
Nobody cares about email rates.
Nobody cares about attributionoutside of marketing.
Attribution inside marketingmatters.
Outside of marketing, it'scontribution.
Only folks.
That's all that matters.
They think you're given thebaton of marketing inside that

(28:20):
company and, like every otherdepartment, they expect you to
run it efficiently.
They're not going to getinvolved in your little sandbox
and tell you what attributionshould be.
That's not a metric that aboard will ever give a marketing
department, but they will givethem.
You have to show up with thisamount of revenue, this amount
of deal, this average deal, thisfunnel velocity.
Those are the things thatmatter and I think marketers,

(28:41):
because they don't understandthat, will just start to throw
any metric they can at a reviewor a QBR or a board report or
whatever, to make it sound likethey're busy because they don't

(29:05):
understand the fundamentals oftheir job in terms of reporting
into the rest of the structure.

I think what we're saying is if you want to impact
the board which we're using as aeuphemism for the leadership
team and the investment really,what you're saying is if you
want to continue to have greatpositive growth and a great
company, then shift to a growthmindset, shift to a revenue
mindset, and when you put therevenue first and you follow

(29:31):
that, the story starts to unfold.
And, Michael, maybe this iswhat you're alluding to.

Yeah, I know where you're going now.
Yes, cfos, can I do?
Yeah, okay, go ahead.

Yep, cfos and CEOs are incredible storytellers and
if you don't see them that way,watch them when a CFO is
preparing and the accountingteam and the planning team, fp&a
, are getting ready.
They're putting a storytogether and they're not putting
a fictional story together.
They're putting a cohesive,clear, accurate story together

(30:05):
and it's led by numbers, butit's spoken word.
Excellent CFOs have to getacross an exorbitant amount of
information in a very shortperiod of time to an audience
that isn't in the business everyday, and so when you see on a
town hall or in a QBR or ifyou're in a boardroom, when you

(30:27):
see a CFO that's doing anexcellent job, they are
communicating clearly andconcisely the story of what
happened in the business.
So the business achieved 98% oftarget.
The 2% we can adjust toinflation in a region of the
country, receivables from aparticular client and we have a

(30:50):
contingency plan for the nextquarter, plan for the next
quarter.
We are also excited that thesales team and the growth
organization can see a path toachieving the rest of the year
target and our cash position.
And then they go into.
Here are the things thathappened in the business, that
enabled that, that were reallyimportant, and so the key things
do bubble up and they changefrom quarter to quarter, but

(31:13):
that CFO's ability to compresseverything that happens across
your organization into a verycohesive story and you'll notice
a sidebar next to the Excel.
And if you're in RevOps oryou're in leadership or you run
a function, the best thing youcan do is find a way to create
more time and space.
If you're in performance andyou're doing just countless

(31:36):
email campaigns, find a way toget time back to understand
what's going on in the businessand change things right.
If one campaign is working andyou're not leveraging that real
time to the others, then you'renot optimized yet and there's
blockers for you.
So get some of the blockers outof the way, because when you
can say, okay, I know I need tohit my revenue and we know we
thought that some of it wouldcome from North America and some

(31:57):
would come from South Americaand some from Europe, some from
Asia, but it's not playing outthat way.
Or gosh, we said we would getsix months, down to four and a
half months from lead to closeand we're still at six months.
Get into the gong right, get inand understand what's going on.
Very few of us have the time todo that.

(32:19):
And so, if you're in aleadership position or you're
RevOps, not only do you want tocreate the space, you want to
create the structure forstorytelling, which is the
cadence of reporting and theinsight gathering.
I see a bunch of teams throw updata rooms and a BI and say you
can go in there anytime youwant.
That's not helpful to theorganization, right.
A BI and say you can go inthere anytime you want?
That's not helpful to theorganization, right.

(32:43):
What's important is to, in theprocess of preparing reporting
or working on it, to createenough time for that report and
that insight work to happen.
And the insights aren't justgenerative AI, they aren't just
predictive, they're dialogue,right.
Okay.
Well, what did our systems tellus?
What are we seeing?
What did we hear on the callswith the three best customers?
There's very little time forthat when the calendar is chock
full of too many tactics.
So this is very much for themarketers.

(33:04):
You could cut out a third ofthe tactics you do and still
achieve the same performancewithout doing anything different
other than giving yourself backtime to look at it.
You could literally cut out athird of the trade shows.
You go to a third of the emailcampaigns, you do a third of
everything you do to giveyourself back time and you would
, at a minimum, achieve the sameamount.
And so I would challenge you tostress test that where it's

(33:25):
safe and work towards if you'renot feeling optimized or like
you've got the time to do it,because you can't tell the story
if you don't know the story.
But first pay attention to that.
Cfo, they can do it.

Yeah, I think that story.
I would argue that it isprobably more valuable to stop
and do that assessment and builda really a really good story
with the model you had.
Like to me is one thing that Iwas taught when I was a co-op
still in college was to do apresentation, was like a, like

(33:59):
one would write a novel.
Right, there's a beginning, amiddle and end.
What I always get frustratedwith is that when I was doing it
for as a presentation never getto the end right, which is what
I want people to walk away with.
I had, somewhere along the way,someone taught me like flip
that right, tell them what youwant them to know, right, in
this case, a revenue kind ofstory, and then everything else
is supporting that.

(34:19):
And if you do that, thatcredibility you're going to get
is going to buy you the abilityto say, yes, I don't think we
should be doing a third of ourtrade shows, but we should be
doing this other thing orwhatever.
But if you don't stop and dothat, you're going to be stuck
in that flywheel of continuingto do lots and lots of tactics
that may or may not begenerating the results that are

(34:41):
actually important to the boardand the executive team.
Sorry, eric, I cut you off.

So two points to sort of add on to this.
One purpose doesn't happen byaccident, you have to make it
happen.
So, to fulfill Kyle's timerequirement, I have found the
best way to do it and everybodycomplains, especially in
marketing ops and rev ops, thatthere's just no time for
anything.
We're always putting out fires,there's always something going
on.
So what?

(35:06):
Make the time by givingyourself a one.
If you feel like there's no wayto get time, then you can give
yourself one hour out of a weekto work on purposeful, strategic
stuff.
And if that means starting withthe reporting, then Friday
morning, start your morning bygiving yourself that one free
hour.
You can give yourself one 40thof the week back for your goal

(35:28):
setting.
And the other one I would sayis on a practical level start.
It's.
It's it's we're saying the samething over and over and over
again, but it's because it's someaningful.
It's.
Start with the end in mind andwork backwards.
And I would say in a datascenario start with success and
work backwards.
So, of the successes you've hadthis week, this month, this

(35:49):
quarter, literally sit down andgroup them together and try and
find the commonality points thatmove the needle for those
particular people.
Did they all go to the sametrade show?
Did they talk to the same salesrep?
Did they go to the samecampaign?
What were the commonalities ofthe success group versus the
non-success group?
That is your starting point.
That also starts to come backto how do you cut out the one

(36:11):
third that Kyle was talkingabout.
If you don't know what issuccessful, how do you know what
to cut?
So it starts with success.
You tease it apart, you figureout what's common.
If they didn't click on any ofyour 49,000 email campaigns,
well, maybe there's some time tobe had out of that whole effort
and maybe you want to convertmore to trade shows.

(36:33):
So now you get analytical toolsand insights to start playing
with marketing mix.
But it starts with figuring outwhat the success looks like and
then why other people aren't onthis success path at each of
the stages.
So we talked about leadgeneration, engagement and
nurturing.
It even goes into BDRs or SDRsand then AEs.

(36:54):
There's four parts to thisfunnel in a B2B cycle.
Each of them has their ownsuccess path, but there's
commonalities there.
So it's not like theinformation is not there, it's
just not evident.
And your job as a marketing opsor rev ops person is to put it
together, tease it out and thenexplain it to the rest of the
crew to get them going on thatalignment that we talked about

(37:17):
at the very beginning, which ishow is everybody talking about
the same story?
And if you don't have the story, it lets you start constructing
the story and get buy-in,because everybody knows this
stuff intuitively but they'renot articulating it very well
amongst themselves.
This is back to the Kyle'sacross the organization effort
as much as anything else.

So yeah, that's good.
Sorry, Eric.

No, no, go ahead .

Yeah, well, I was going to add there's a, there's
a big technology component here.
That's kind of an elephant inthe room sometimes and that is.
You know, maybe you were anindependent or a siloed inside
marketing marketing ops groupand now you're moving into a rev
ops and if you're still justmarketing ops and it's not
connected, you're going to wantto personally run to get it
connected.
When you think revenue first,you can't have two sets of

(38:04):
numbers floating around orsystems that aren't integrated.
It creates a lack of confidencebetween the teams within growth
.
So does sales believe thenumber of leaks?
Marketing says it's got Right.
Well, if it's all the same datain the same system and the same
numbers, that's a step.
But the other is when you'regetting that capacity back to
figure out, well, how do we makesure we hit the number and are

(38:26):
we doing the things that reallymattered at the revenue?
And what do we learn from theclose ones that came from
inbound and that we did fromaccount planning and that ABX
Like when you do that off onyour own in marketing, it's not
helpful.
You've got to have the SDR BDRviewpoint, you have to have the
sales rep viewpoint becauseultimately it's a team sport to
get that win.
And as a leader, I don't bonusor tie bonuses to those lower

(38:52):
KPIs only.
It's got to be to the closedones.
So instead of a head of demandor performance saying you've got
to generate this many leads, no, you have to generate this
percent of the bookings.
And we don't care where itcomes from, except there's a
kicker if you get it in theright strategic way, which is
from these areas, because weknow that things will change
over time.

(39:17):
But when you really justpersonally get in that mindset,
you only want to focus on thethings that work.
No one wants to send out andincrease their social
performance by 300% when thatchannel isn't maybe as important
as time you could have spentdoing something else, and I'm
just using that as an example.
Sometimes that could be themost important channel, right?
Or you know, again back to youdon't want to have an abundance

(39:38):
of email campaigns when newlogos and email are less
critical than maybe setting up,you know, bespoke tech days at
your customers, right?
That's part of an ABX motion.
So it's really important to beintegrating that thinking and
all of this ladders back up tookay, we use the same words and
we're aligned.
We have reports that reallyfocus on what matters bookings,

(40:00):
quality of revenue by channel,and then supporting indicators
as to what helped us do that.
So, revops, that's your jobacross sales and marketing,
right.
Like, hey, we got that newproduct launched in Europe and
we achieved a hundred percent or110% of what we thought we'd do
in the first quarter.
Why we did these seat things inmarketing.
We did these things in umsuccess and support, reaching

(40:22):
out to our current customers,and we did these things in the
field and with partners.
Um.
That connected story is a storyof growth for a company and
um'll also shoot your career upfaster than anything else.
You know, storytelling is thecommon, one of the common traits
of everybody in the C-suite andit's certainly a common trait
of everybody on the board.

I wanted to touch upon one thing you've
brought into this conversation acouple of times, but I don't
think it's well understoodQuality of revenue.
Can you just unpack that Onion,Because I think that's a really
important idea.
That's not first audience,right?

They are responsible for the company, but
their first audience isshareholders, and what they want
is not just growth, but thekind of growth and revenue that
builds the future value of thecompany.
And so I've been in companiesthat were services companies,
that became software companies,and a software company per

(41:35):
dollar can be more valuable onthe investment market than a
services company, as a simpleexample.
Or a company that is softwarebut half of it is on-premise and
it's trying to get itscustomers to the cloud.
Or a company that's softwarebut limited to a certain amount
and wants to be able to growmore.
Well, in order to be bought orto merge or to have the support

(42:00):
of your investors to go and dobuying or invest in more R&D or
invest in more field or moremarketing, they have to see that
the kind of sales we areachieving make us more and more
valuable.
So we don't just grow indollars, and we don't just grow
in dollars with good margin, butwe grow towards that.

(42:20):
So quality of revenue startswith are we making the company
more valuable?
And then it's okay.
Did we get a booking with thekind of customer we want that we
know is the type that helps usdo that?
Did we get the kind of dealthat's that we know is the type
that helps us do that?
Did we get the kind of dealthat's good for us margin?
And is it the is the customer?
You know all the things that gointo what we call the ideal

(42:41):
customer profile.
Is it really really right forus Meaning?
Are they the right type ofbuyer?
Do they have the right businessneed?
Do we have a fit for purpose ora market fit for purpose?
Is our product going to solvetheir problem and can we add
more value over time with them?
Are they going to be a greatlifetime customer?

(43:02):
And so sales is so focused on anumber it will not always hit
the perfect customer.
We don't want them to.
We want them to do that moreoften than not Marketing.
We want the leads to more oftennot be the perfect customers.
We don't just want growth, wewant quality growth and so being
able in RevOps to say, okay, wehit it.
And, by the way, we said thatwe were going to do more

(43:25):
business in this region becauseit mattered and we invested
three more salespeople there andwe spent 10% more marketing
there and we did it.
That's what the board wants tohear.
We know how to pull levers, turnknobs and work as a team to go
do the things that increase thequality of the business.
Because when we do all thatupfront, we extend the lifetime

(43:46):
of the customer as well.
There's a better match whenwe're a fit, when they're right,
and so, again, it's not all thetime there.
There's a better match whenwe're a fit, when they're right,
and so, again, it's not all thetime.
There's never a perfect fullset of customers, but that
quality of revenue reallymatters.
And then it's also down to nowwe're in the operational
efficiency.
So, revops, before you startworrying about the return on the
ad spend, you want to talkabout how fast did we get

(44:07):
someone through the stages, youknow?
Did it take us a year to do itor six months to do it?
That is a huge cost, right?
And on renewals, what's ourrenewal rate and can we increase
that through bettercommunication, account
management not just product andR&D, and support and success
teams.
So quality of revenue is thewhole company's responsibility.

(44:28):
And in marketing that meansthat we bring in the right leads
, right time and to the upaudience.
It means supporting, hittingthe number to the across.
It means we're all focused onthe meaning across the company.
We're all focused together onthe priorities that will help us
do that.
And then within we're we arewatching row s, we are watching
customer acquisition costs.

(44:49):
We're watching all that becauseit helps us do our job to do
that.
But RevOps help us stay high onthe numbers and work back into
that stuff and don't let anybodybring forward all of the
functional KPIs.

Yeah, I wanted to touch on one item that you
mentioned there, which is theICP, which directly affects
marketing groups, and I thinkit's an immature metric at this
time, because people make an ICPbased upon mostly hunches or
guesses or market segment orwishes of where they want to be

(45:24):
and not there's an idea ofwhere's your ICP today and where
do you want to move your ICP totomorrow to get that quality of
growth, quality of revenue.
And I would say again, it goesback to the same story we've
been telling this wholeconversation, which it starts
with success, what you thinkyour ICP is actually.
Go back, using the successmodel and test whether the

(45:45):
successful candidates actuallyhave the traits that the ICP you
think you wanted match up.
And if you want to get one winout of this conversation, it
would be check the successcriteria of the people against
your ideal customer profileparameters and see if there's a
match.
If there's not a highpercentage of overlap, you've

(46:07):
got a fictitious ICP, in whichcase you're expending a lot of
effort on people that may notmatter to you as a company and
what you really need to do isadjust your ICP, in which case
you're expending a lot of efforton people that may not matter
to you as a company and what youreally need to do is adjust
your ICP to reality.
Then come back and say, nowthat we've got what's real,
let's plan about how we get thepeople we want and then start to
adjust your marketing mix.

(46:27):
That's an internal, like yousay.
That's an internal marketingoptimization.
But agreeing on what the ICPacross the revenue organization,
I think is like step two afteror day two after the exercise,
because everybody should besaying these are the people that
bring the revenue in today.
And then you ask the secondaryquestions is it quality revenue?
Can we do it faster?

(46:47):
You know, are we attracting theright people?
And so forth.
But it starts with who's givingus money today because we're
the right product, right fit,and then build upon that.
And I think that's somethingmarketing ops and rev ops can
dig into immediately, which isdo we actually know what our ICP
is?
Because so much flows from thatidea into various things.

(47:09):
It should modify your marketingtactics, your techniques, your
conversations, your words.
Back to your point aboutlexicon.
If you're not talking about thesame ideal customer throughout
that revenue journey, I thinkyou're missing a huge
opportunity to start thatalignment.
If you're coming up from nothing.
Start with your ICP.

Verify your ICP would be my first statement
Totally and again, everybody'ssort of at a different place on
the maturity curve of that.
And if you're flying high withvoice of customer data and a
strong ICP program, you'reconstantly improving, that,
that's very rare.
Very few companies are able todo that, only the biggest and
and strong and and, on the otherhand, if you don't even have

(47:48):
product marketing as a functionand nobody's really handling
that ICP, there's sort of a stepprocess you go through and
you'll start with the well, webelieve it's this type of buyer
with this type of need.
And even when that translatesto, say, web copy or to the way
you try to attract them inoutbound, the order of things
you think matter to them, evenjust switching the order can be

(48:10):
transformative.
Right, if you think thatpriority one is priority one,
but it's really priority three,that's a breakthrough in your
efficacy or your ability togenerate leads, but it can be
bigger than that.
I was in a group where that wasthe case in the maturity curve.
We kind of knew okay, wegenerally understand how this
group buys and who they are andwhat they're trying to, the

(48:32):
problems they're trying to solve, right.
But when we looked at who'sreally transacting, it was M&A
in their space.
They didn't transact unlessthey were bought or sold or
being purchased, and so thatthat's a massive difference,
right?
When you say, well, we'retalking to them about how to
help them do their job betterand save time and make money,
generate profit and havecapabilities in their job better

(48:53):
and save time and make money,generate profit and have
capabilities Inmire had before,and all that, that's helpful,
but what they really care aboutis no, we need you because we
need to integrate systems or wewon't be able to effectively
operate our business and wecould actually create her.
Those are two different storiesaltogether from the same person
.
And that ICP has to be managed.
That's really well said, eric.
And you know RevOps again likekeep everybody honest.

(49:17):
You know you're going to be theones with your finger on this,
but there's other groups in thebuilding that can help.
You know whether you've gotbusiness analysts in a program
management office or you havethem in finance or you have them
over.
There's a lot of people thatcan put eyes on this stuff.
That that's their professionaljob inside your company, and so
the more people are thinkingabout it, the better, and

(49:37):
there's also great techadvantage on ICP, now you can.
I mentioned Gong earlier.
Whatever software you're using,you can go, listen to and get
AI kind of summations of the topthings customers are saying and
a lot of people aren'tleveraging that right.
So I would say there areattached to everything we've
said that you can go find.

So you both have talked about RevOps and
stuff, and maybe this is wherewe can kind of wrap up a little
bit.
But since our core audience isintended to be a marketing ops
RevOps folks is there a liketoday, tomorrow?
Here's how you can help yourrevenue leadership to make steps
towards some of this stuff.

Right, to tell a better story, so I'll go first
on this one.
I've already hinted at it.
If you aren't making time forthe future, it'll never happen.
So the first thing you do isblock out one hour per week and
hopefully you can grow.
That A strategic number shouldbe about 20% of your time should
be focused on the future and80% should be keeping the lights
on.
You can't get there in day one,but you can start by giving

(50:39):
yourself a small time slice toget there.
And you'd start by givingyourself one hour a week and
then move up from there.
And the other part is I thinkyour job is insights, because
you can't change the worldunless you have a compelling
story.
So using that one hour a weekis start to generate what works
and what doesn't work, and byworking from success backwards,
it's always start with successand then identify places where

(51:02):
you can make changes or proposechanges, and there should.
The other thing is there shouldbe no sacred cows.
You've got to look at it inrealistic terms, backed by data
and so forth, and I'd like totouch on one thing I mentioned.
The other person you need tomake friends with is the CIO.
The CFO is your enabler throughfinance.

(51:23):
Your CIO is your enablerthrough data, and we didn't talk
much about data, but if youdon't have the right data
systems or access to the rightdata systems, making friends
with the CIO is the way to getthat access started.
Get them on your side andthings will start to become
easier.
You'll start to break up thisGordian knot of everything's

(51:43):
just all over the place and it'stoo much effort.
They're your key to accessingand getting clean data, and they
will happily take on dataprojects because they just want
to help the company too.
That's part of their job, solet them help you do your job
better and engage the IT folks.
There's some brilliant peoplethere, and then all your job is

(52:06):
to make them work for youinstead of somebody else.
Kyle, any thoughts?

Yeah, I think I would just just say tell one
growth story.
If you're in a marketing opsorganization right now, align
your story with the sales opsteam and the support team, the
success team.
Get to one revenue numberbroken out by inbound, outbound,
field partner and then go fromthere on your next pages.

(52:32):
If you're in a RevOps, don'tlet the tyranny of did we hit
the bookings in the margin?
Block out all the ways that weachieved it.
To Eric's point about futurewhat happened?
If you don't do it, we need totell with confidence the board
and the leadership team whatwe're doing to ensure that
future is predictable,leadership team, what we're

(52:54):
doing to ensure that future ispredictable.
And so, right after we tellthem we hit the number and
here's how we got there, we tellthem whether or not it was the
way we drew it up on the plan.
Was it with the ICPs?
We thought.
Was it in the regions?
We thought With the products?
We thought what has changed tochange that?
And so if you're marketing opsor you're in demand gen
performance and you're, you know, waking up every day saying,
well, how do I get, you know, ahundred MCLs and a thousand MQLs

(53:14):
and all those, those stages orS1s and like that.
Stuff is really important.
So don't don't take this thewrong way, but wake up and say
how do I hit the 20 deals thisquarter I'm responsible for on
inbound?
Did my leads that that I gotsix months ago, are they going
to materialize?
Or six weeks ago, whatever yourlead close cycle is Like,

(53:35):
really get focused there andtell all your stories and do all
your planning from that,because you know what you'll do
for the next half of the year.
If you find out that you'regenerating leads that aren't
following up, you'll stop givingleads to that area or you'll go
talk to them and say, guys,we're not turning these leads
into something, something'sbroken in our chain.
Let, we're not turning theseleads into something.
Something's broken in our chain.
Let's look at our chaintogether.
Or maybe something's changed inthe market.
We need to go fish somewhereelse.
And that only happens when it'sreally one set of numbers.

(53:58):
And if you want to have a great, strong relationship with the
field and the sales team andwork as a growth unit, you'll
operate from one hymnal, onebook of truth, one source of
truth.

It's funny I uh, throughout this conversation
I keep coming back in my headto a book that I received,
actually a big marketingconference for a big company I
work for and you guys mightrecognize the who moved my
cheese book, right.
So it's in that kind of style,right, short, pithy chapters.
It's called how to be amarketing superstar.
There's one chapter, that is,two two faces facing pages and

(54:33):
the gist of it was this iscustomer money and other.
That just was like everybodyshould have printed on their
paychecks back when we gotpaychecks yeah, this is customer
money, and it sounds reallycorny and cheesy, but when it
really like, I used to have aphotocopy of it, like at my desk
everywhere, and people wouldalways ask me about it because I
think it the mindset of like,thinking about how, what we're

(54:56):
doing today, whether it's anemail or tactic or report or now
you know like, is it going tohelp us generate the kind of
money that enables us to have ajob, right, that's, that's what
we should be doing.
And I think that focus getslost the further you get from
understanding what affectscustomers, from actually paying
for whatever product or serviceyou sell.

And when you're connected to the ultimate
outcome, you get to celebrate itmore internally.
It just feels good.
So if you're not in that,mindset when you get there
you'll see that, and thinkinglike an owner is a critical part
of this.

Very quickly to dip into the engineering version
of that is.
I think JFK walked into NASAone day and I'm paraphrasing
heavily that.
He asked a janitor, what's yourjob here?
And the guy said to put a manon the moon.
His tactic was to wash thefloors.
His goal was to put a man onthe moon.
Everybody contributed and thatgoes back to that heavy
alignment that Kyle's beentelling us from the start is

(55:55):
incredibly important and I ahundred percent agree.

Yeah, that feels like a great place to stop
right there, right, Like thatsums it all up, doesn't it?
Um, well, yes, Thank you somuch.
This has been a lot of fun.
I wish we like it feels like wejust barely scratched the
surface on this topic, but Ithink we're going to have to
wrap it up, Kyle.
Thank you, Eric.
Thank you.
If folks want to you know,connect with you or go deeper on

(56:19):
this, what's the best way forthem to do this?
Kyle, why don't you go first?

Go to LinkedIn, for sure, and then by all means be
passionate about this stuff andlove to see when organizations
are well aligned and jamming.
So I'm here for you.

Awesome.

Likewise, linkedin is the best place to
start, happy to have aconversation online to keep this
going forward, because I want amission to get marketing
leadership to contribute better,and it starts with changing one
mind at a time and growing thecommunity.
I desperately want to seemarketing leadership be relevant
to the board levelconversations, because they've

(56:55):
got so much influence, they justdon't know how to purvey it
properly.

Couldn't agree more Well said again.
Thank you guys.
Thanks to our listeners andwatchers who are, as we're,
moving, more into getting videoout.
Thank you for supporting us.
If you have ideas for topics orguests or want to be a guest,
always reach out to Naomi, Mikeor me.
We'd be happy to talk to youabout it Until next time.
Bye everybody, Bye-bye.

Thanks, michael, see you later Bye-bye.

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